From danas at egosys.com  Fri Sep  1 00:46:04 2000
From: danas at egosys.com (Dana Scott)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 18:46:04 -0400
Subject: MS20 parts question
Message-ID: <013801c0139d$460e2820$82fc6ed1@egosys.smtp.ix.netcom.com>

The HTV prefix tells me it must be a Hamamatsu part. We used hamamatsu
parts at ARP too.

http://usa.hamamatsu.com/hcpdf/os/Optosemi.pdf

try looking at page 18 or 19.

-Dana Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Montalbano <Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu>
To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Date: Thursday, August 31, 2000 6:27 PM
Subject: MS20 parts question


>Looking over my old MS20 schematics (haven't owned one in over 20
years,
>but the modules are fun to clone & modify) & noticed the Modulation
VCA,
>which uses some sort of photocoupler (listed on the parts sheet as
>"HTV-P873-G35-201B").
>Anyone have the slightest idea what this might be, and what
equivalents (or
>close enough) might be available these days?
>
>If so, thanks.
>
>If not, too bad for me.
>




From jhaible at debitel.net  Fri Sep  1 01:15:11 2000
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 01:15:11 +0200
Subject: Faces set to stunned
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA026B1F2D@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de> <012701c01387$0d13fba0$8248fea9@danas>
Message-ID: <000a01c013aa$76dc6fe0$d038363e@debitel.net>


> Yes, ARP used the 3086's because they were cheaper.
> We used 3086's all over the place, on nearly every product, from 2600
VCO's
> to AXXE VCA's.

I worked thru the ARP Sequencer schemos a year or two ago, and I was
impressed about the use of 3086 arrays for BJTs and CMOS 4007
chips for FETs all over the circuit.

> As for the phaser,
> it warms my heart to know that people are still building it.

It's a truely brilliant design. I was excited about it from the first moment
I
saw it. Just the idea of that all pass filter ladder: Cross coupling the
resistive
element from one side to the other with the BE path of a transistor, and
doing the buffering from C to E in one and the same side of the ladder.
It's mind-boggling to even analyze this - who was the one who invented
it at ARP ?
And then the compander, 3 tracking VC resistors built from one inexpensive
4007 chip, and it works so nicely !
The hybrid high impedance instrumentation amp that acts as a pickup
for the end of the ladder is remarkable as well. (I have omitted that
in my version, because low noise FET input opamps are no problem
today, and much cheaper, but anyway ...)
And the combination of Germanium diode clipping and the compander
that makes this clipping even more gradual and smooth contributes
to the unique sound at high resonance as well.

Hats off to the designer of this !

JH.





From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 01:27:56 2000
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:27:56 EDT
Subject: Blue Box, E-H Frequency Multiplexer, etc.
Message-ID: <90.9213fcd.26e043fc@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/31/00 2:21:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WeAreAs1 at aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 The POLYSUBBASS page, including complete schematics:
 
 <A HREF="http://matthias.grob.org/pParad/polymod.htm">http://matthias.grob.or
g
 /pParad/ParaPoly.htm#Polysub</A>
  >>

Oops!  I'm afraid that this is the wrong URL for the circuit description and 
schematics.  Try this one instead:

<A HREF="http://matthias.grob.org/pParad/ParaPoly.htm">http://matthias.grob.or
g/pParad/ParaPoly.htm</A>

(scroll down to the "PARADIS POLYSUBBASS (Pat. app.)" section, about halfway 
down the page)

Mike B.



From djtrev at mciworld.com  Fri Sep  1 04:37:01 2000
From: djtrev at mciworld.com (djtrev)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:37:01 -0700
Subject: Sh-101 to TOM  Clock Sync!
Message-ID: <001e01c013bd$84848d40$0100a8c0@djtrev>

Hello,

This is Trevor, I sit in the Background quitely and listen to everyones knowledge on this list!  I have found everyones input very usefull!  So, for once I have a question!

I am trying to Sync my Roland SH-101 and a Sequential Circuits Tom Drum machine via the Clock out on the Tom to the Sh101 Clock input!  When I do this the Sh-101's clock is very fast!  TO FAST!!!  Does anybody have any idea on how to make this work! 

Also I have A Paia Tone drum Board!  Already assembled free to anybody just getting into Analog Circuits!  It needs a power  supply and some triggers which can be built or are still foresale through the catalog!  Once again free to Students or a person who wants to learn about analog drums!  Just pay the shipping and it is yours!

Thanks
TREVOR ORRICK
-------------- next part --------------
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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Fri Sep  1 05:38:24 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:38:24 -0400
Subject: Sh-101 to TOM  Clock Sync!
References: <001e01c013bd$84848d40$0100a8c0@djtrev>
Message-ID: <39AF24AF.F915750B@prodigy.net>

Hi Trevor:

Can't say for sure, but if the clock is too fast you can divide it down,
especially if
it is by a factor of 2.  Counters such as the cmos 4024 could be used...
or others.

I think that Blacet makes a module which would allow you to do the
divide, if a kit
is your liking.

H^) harry

djtrev wrote:

> Hello, This is Trevor, I sit in the Background quitely and listen to
> everyones knowledge on this list!  I have found everyones input very
> usefull!  So, for once I have a question! I am trying to Sync my
> Roland SH-101 and a Sequential Circuits Tom Drum machine via the Clock
> out on the Tom to the Sh101 Clock input!  When I do this the Sh-101's
> clock is very fast!  TO FAST!!!  Does anybody have any idea on how to
> make this work! Also I have A Paia Tone drum Board!  Already assembled
> free to anybody just getting into Analog Circuits!  It needs a power
> supply and some triggers which can be built or are still foresale
> through the catalog!  Once again free to Students or a person who
> wants to learn about analog drums!  Just pay the shipping and it is
> yours! ThanksTREVOR ORRICK




From DCMagnuson at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 16:05:27 2000
From: DCMagnuson at aol.com (DCMagnuson at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 10:05:27 EDT
Subject: Sh-101 to TOM  Clock Sync!
Message-ID: <70.2ad3f87.26e111a7@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/31/00 10:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
djtrev at mciworld.com writes:

> Hello,
>  
>  This is Trevor, I sit in the Background quitely and listen to everyones 
> knowledge on this list!  I have found everyones input very usefull!  So, 
for 
> once I have a question!
>  
>  I am trying to Sync my Roland SH-101 and a Sequential Circuits Tom Drum 
> machine via the Clock out on the Tom to the Sh101 Clock input!  When I do 
> this the Sh-101's clock is very fast!  TO FAST!!!  Does anybody have any 
idea 
> on how to make this work! 


When using an external clock to run the SH-101, the sequencer runs at the 
actual speed of the incoming pulses.  In other words... if you want 1/8 notes 
to play on the sequencer, send the clock pulses at 1/8 note intervals.  If 
you want 16th notes, send 16th note clock pulses.

For some reason, they didn't use DIN-sync on this machine.





From debus at cityweb.de  Fri Sep  1 16:19:44 2000
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:19:44 +0200
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de>
Message-ID: <39AFBAFD.C4D6051D@cityweb.de>



Michael Buchstaller wrote:
> i am in the process of building a tube-based DAC. First experiments with
> a 8-bit-version vonnected to a PC?s parallel ports look promising.
> 
> But i want to have a digital input via SPDIF (or the like), so i could connect a
> CD player or other gear directly.

So you're into building an 16 bit DAC from discrete parts? Aren't there
hard to get (precision) parts involved?

Ingo





From don at till.com  Fri Sep  1 19:27:43 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 10:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Faces set to stunned
In-Reply-To: <000a01c013aa$76dc6fe0$d038363e@debitel.net>
	(jhaible@debitel.net)
Message-ID: <200009011727.KAA25608@shell9.ba.best.com>

   From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
   Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 01:15:11 +0200

   > As for the phaser, it warms my heart to know that people are
   > still building it. 

   It's a truely brilliant design. I was excited about it from the
   first moment I saw it. 

I agree; absolutely brilliant.  

This is the sort of thing that makes musical electronics so
fascinating. 

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From rja at euronet.nl  Fri Sep  1 20:01:39 2000
From: rja at euronet.nl (Rick Jansen)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 20:01:39 +0200
Subject: Admin message: unsubscribed users
Message-ID: <39AFEF03.ED36994F@euronet.nl>

The following users have been unsubscribed due to mail problems
at their end:

>>> RCPT To:<fournel at worldnet.fr>
<<< 550 <fournel at worldnet.fr>... User unknown
550 <fournel at worldnet.fr>... User unknown

>>> RCPT To:<blacet at metro.net>
<<< 550 5.1.1 Unknown user.
550 blacet at metro.net... User unknown

<<< 550 <airben at club-internet.fr>... Utilisateur inconnu
550 airben at club-internet.fr... User unknown

User mailbox exceeds allowed size: mango at mail.gelrevision.nl

User <9606331h at 1996.sci.student.gla> not known at this site.
9606331h at student.gla.ac.uk

User Romeo_Fahl (Romeo_Fahl at stream.com) not listed in public Name & Address Book






Rick Jansen
-- 
Web: http://www.euronet.nl/~rja/
email: rja at euronet.nl



From danas at egosys.com  Sat Sep  2 00:00:21 2000
From: danas at egosys.com (Dana Scott)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 18:00:21 -0400
Subject: Fw: Faces set to stunned
Message-ID: <004301c01460$08d708a0$b8fc6ed1@egosys.smtp.ix.netcom.com>

I got this off list, I'll reply on-list because I think others may
benefit,

The Phaser in question was part of the ARP Quadra. In my view it is
what made The Quadra worth owning. Anybody correct me if I'm wrong,
but I believe that very few Quarda's survive today because of the
touch switches on the front panel.
        As for Phasers in general, ARP, sometime in the late 70's
bought out the product line of Mu-Tron.  Yes, ARP made the MuTron
Phasers, Bi phase , Octave Divider and some sort of 'Wah' pedal I
believe ( I forget , it's been 20+ years! )  The Mu-Tron Phaser and
Bi-Phase used a Hamamatsu device with 6 LDR's and a single LED.  Too
bad that they are not still available.

More to come...
-Dana


>I'm curious, I used a lot of ARP stuff, in fact I "cut my teeth" on
the
>AXXE, Odyssey and 2600 and accompanying sequencer.  I never heard of
them
>making a phaser- when was this produced?  I lost touch with them
during the
>Avatar era.  Thanks for any information you can provide.  What sort
of work
>are you doing these days?
>
>Steve C
>




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep  2 01:00:47 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 01:00:47 +0200
Subject: electro harmonix frequency multiplexer
In-Reply-To: <200008301126.NAA06023@ikarus.intermetall.de>
References: <200008301126.NAA06023@ikarus.intermetall.de>
Message-ID: <20000902010047H.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Martin Czech <czech at Micronas.Com>
Subject: electro harmonix frequency multiplexer
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:26:38 +0200 (MET DST)

> I recently came across this frequency divider (well, why multiplexer?!).
> It basically converts the frequency to an octave lower,
> in order to convert guitar into "bass".
> I saw a scope screenshot, sine in and (almost) sine out.
> 
> ? Huuh ?
> 
> Is this simply done via band limiting the ff output or is there
> some magic inside this effect box that I don't understand yet?
> 
> Are there any schmatics?

Hmm... even if the theory of this device seems to be covered allready, this
just spawned me with the idea of doing another non-linear curcuit which would
have the same effect.

Take an input signal (assume sine waveform), have an envelope follower to
detect the peak envelope, add this signal to the original signal 1:1. Then,
take this signal and send it through a square-root curcuit. The output waveform
will now be a sine being an octave down from the input sine. Naturally, this
will be a possibly interesting source of distorsion ;D

In essence one could say that this is a form of modified RMS detector, somewhat
simpler. It should be easy enougth to do in pure analog curcuitry.

Naturally you can apply this trick many times to get further sub-tones.

Cheers,
Magnus - feeling a bit non-linear





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep  2 01:19:56 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 01:19:56 +0200
Subject: one/F noise source ckt?
In-Reply-To: <39AD2A06.E34D1BCB@tomy.net>
References: <1.5.4.32.20000830152414.00b6b99c@popa.melbpc.org.au>
	<39AD2A06.E34D1BCB@tomy.net>
Message-ID: <20000902011956N.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Thomas Hudson <thudson at tomy.net>
Subject: Re: one/F noise source ckt?
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 08:36:38 -0700

> 
> There have been some good discussions of 1/f
> noise on the music dsp list. Unfortunately,
> other types of noise made me unsub from that list.
> There are some good links in this message:
> 
> http://shoko.calarts.edu/~majordom/music-dsp/1998b/msg00119.html
> 
> I also have some code lying around based on an
> old Marvin Gardner/Scientific American article
> for generating 1/f random numbers. 
> 
> I've never seen any way to generate it electronically,
> which seems strange considering the first link
> in the above message would lead me to believe
> it is everywhere :-)

The above article is correct in that the 1/f curve is the power distribution
and NOT the amplitude distribution. The diffrence is highly important since it
gives -3 dB/oct instead of -6 dB/oct. Now, a normal RC filter is -6 dB/oct, so
it will not be enougth.

Doing a true -3 dB/oct filter REALLY IS as hard as fetching half an electron!!!

One method to approximate a -3 dB/oct filter which is available for DSPs is to
create a -3 dB/oct frequency distribution and then use the inverse Fourier
transform in order to generate the impulse responce that could be used in a
FIR filter. There are naturally limits with using this method, but it can be
used. Hmm... I wonder how the coefs will look!!!

Cheers,
Magnus




From dblum at artic.edu  Sat Sep  2 14:44:40 2000
From: dblum at artic.edu (Mush)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:44:40 +0000
Subject: 128fs
Message-ID: <39B0F636.E5D82F7C@artic.edu>

Can anyone give me a basic explanation of what "128fs" refers to?  I've seen
it mentioned in some reference to masterclock, but i have no idea what it is
or its function...what the difference between 1fs, 128fs, 256fs etc. is.

Also if a converter has both spdif i/o and 128fs i/o, how do they function in
relation to each other?

---David B



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep  2 14:53:58 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:53:58 +0200
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
In-Reply-To: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de>
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de>
Message-ID: <20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 15:38:33 GMT

> Hello Group,

Hallo Michael,

> i am in the process of building a tube-based DAC. First experiments with
> a 8-bit-version vonnected to a PC?s parallel ports look promising.
> 
> But i want to have a digital input via SPDIF (or the like), so i could connect a
> CD player or other gear directly.
> Having looked at various data sheets of SPDIF decoder IC?s, i am very
> confused. Is there anything out which would allow me to simply convert the
> serial data stream into a parallel one ? It seems that all the IC?s are designed
> to be interfaced to a MPU or at least to a DAC IC with serial input.

Yes, but then add a few chips to do the serial to parallell conversion. Since
quite some time has the audio/hi-fi industry been using serial devices since
it gives supperiour pin-count/function ratio. You can find very nice stereo
DACs in a 8-pin capsule for instance.

However, what I am woundering is really what the point is here... are you
really using tubes as the fundament switches of the D/A ladder?

I'm not a tube-head, but how well can one calibrate them as stable switchable
voltage or current sources? As you go for more bits this will become more and
more important since it causes distorsion, and not the kind of distorsion that
you are looking for.

Anyway, if this is what you are intending to do it certainly sounds like a
odd-ball project. It would be interesting to see how it turns out. Personally
I would stick with a commercial linear DAC.

> I would really want to avoid a provessor to do this task; any hardware solution
> would be preferred.
> Does anybody out there have experience in this field ? Specially,which decoders
> are working fine, and which ones are better avoided ?

Well, I would be looking at the Crystal Semiconductor ones to start with.

Cheers,
Magnus



From colin.fraser at calanais.com  Sat Sep  2 16:36:18 2000
From: colin.fraser at calanais.com (Fraser, Colin J)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 15:36:18 +0100 
Subject: ARP Phaser
Message-ID: <CA369439A6D0314A919139DA6851A3129752@CATSPG2K01.scottishpower.com>

Tried posting this from home but it never turned up - is the list working
ok?

Anyway,
I've created a mp3 file of the ARP Phaser doing it's stuff.

To make a worthwhile comparison, I used the dry sound from Mark Pulver's
phaser comparison page at <http://www.midiwall.com/synths/phasers.html>

Mark has kindly posted the ARP mp3 there, so you can compare the Quadra
phaser directly with various others.

I like it even more now I've got the stereo outs hooked up.

Colin f







From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep  2 17:39:00 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:39:00 +0200
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
In-Reply-To: <004401c014fc$a8548780$0101a8c0@iquest.net>
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de>
	<20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<004401c014fc$a8548780$0101a8c0@iquest.net>
Message-ID: <20000902173900P.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Rob" <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
Subject: Re: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:41:30 -0700

> 
> I could see an adjustable tube gain stage AFTER the dac, but...
> 
> I don't see what gains you would get from having a tube dac.

Yes, from a pure technical solution I would reason like this, IF I where going
to use tubes in the first place.

However, it would be fashinating to learn if someone where able to do a full-
tube DAC, it's characteristics, it's schematics etc. It does not sound like
a big commercial hit thought.

Cheers,
Magnus




From diode at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  2 17:53:12 2000
From: diode at hotmail.com (danial stocks)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:53:12 GMT
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <LAW-F1226QR7j1HaKtK00000496@hotmail.com>


>
>Again: the individual transistor parameters have a great influence
>on noise. There is a lot of variation. Low noise types are often
>selected devices. E.g. a 2SC828 may differ in this respect from
>manufacturer to manufacturer. Most transistors amd diodes
>are not designed to run in avalanche breakdown, there's
>no spec for this mode, so I wouldn't expect that a specific
>type would always behave the same, if you pick -say- 100
>transistors with the same stamp but diffrent supplier.

Well, yeh, I agree with this in principle, but I also say the 828's are good 
from having tested quite a few of them and achieving consistently good 
results.. Admittedly I haven't tried these from different mfr's, but from 
going thru my jar of transistors, I tested quite a number of each type of 
device which I had on hand that I thought to try out.. I think I tried 
2SC536, 828, 930, 945, BC547, maybe some 2n.. was a while ago...

Cheers,
Dan
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.




From diode at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  2 18:39:27 2000
From: diode at hotmail.com (danial stocks)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:39:27 GMT
Subject: Sh-101 to TOM Clock Sync!
Message-ID: <LAW-F216xSc6pT0giSf00000a60@hotmail.com>

ke this work!
>
>
>When using an external clock to run the SH-101, the sequencer runs at the
>actual speed of the incoming pulses.  In other words... if you want 1/8 
>notes
>to play on the sequencer, send the clock pulses at 1/8 note intervals.  If
>you want 16th notes, send 16th note clock pulses.
>

Which means at the din sync of 24ppq, for 1/4 note, div by 24, 1/8 = div 12 
etc. easiest would be to use a 4017 set for /3 [put o/p 4 to reset] and feed 
the o/p of this divider into a 4024 to pick off note val pulses etc.. if you 
had a switch on the 4017, you could select to send 1/3, 1/6 notes etc as 
well..
Cheers,
Dan
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sat Sep  2 18:41:30 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:41:30 -0700
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de> <20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <004401c014fc$a8548780$0101a8c0@iquest.net>


I could see an adjustable tube gain stage AFTER the dac, but...

I don't see what gains you would get from having a tube dac.

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
To: <buchi at takeonetech.de>
Cc: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface


> From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
> Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 15:38:33 GMT
>
> > Hello Group,
>
> Hallo Michael,
>
> > i am in the process of building a tube-based DAC. First experiments with
> > a 8-bit-version vonnected to a PC?s parallel ports look promising.
> >
> > But i want to have a digital input via SPDIF (or the like), so i could
connect a
> > CD player or other gear directly.
> > Having looked at various data sheets of SPDIF decoder IC?s, i am very
> > confused. Is there anything out which would allow me to simply convert
the
> > serial data stream into a parallel one ? It seems that all the IC?s are
designed
> > to be interfaced to a MPU or at least to a DAC IC with serial input.
>
> Yes, but then add a few chips to do the serial to parallell conversion.
Since
> quite some time has the audio/hi-fi industry been using serial devices
since
> it gives supperiour pin-count/function ratio. You can find very nice
stereo
> DACs in a 8-pin capsule for instance.
>
> However, what I am woundering is really what the point is here... are you
> really using tubes as the fundament switches of the D/A ladder?
>
> I'm not a tube-head, but how well can one calibrate them as stable
switchable
> voltage or current sources? As you go for more bits this will become more
and
> more important since it causes distorsion, and not the kind of distorsion
that
> you are looking for.
>
> Anyway, if this is what you are intending to do it certainly sounds like a
> odd-ball project. It would be interesting to see how it turns out.
Personally
> I would stick with a commercial linear DAC.
>
> > I would really want to avoid a provessor to do this task; any hardware
solution
> > would be preferred.
> > Does anybody out there have experience in this field ? Specially,which
decoders
> > are working fine, and which ones are better avoided ?
>
> Well, I would be looking at the Crystal Semiconductor ones to start with.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>




From 8brain at spiritone.com  Sat Sep  2 19:08:38 2000
From: 8brain at spiritone.com (Romeo Fahl)
Date: 2 Sep 2000 10:08:38 -0700
Subject: MM5837?
Message-ID: <00ee01c01500$7181f720$6df182d0@8brain>

Hello,

I'm looking for an MM5837 ("Chugga Chugga") pseudo-random noise IC to do
some experimenting with.  Does anyone have a spare or know of a source for
one?

Romeo




From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sat Sep  2 20:11:50 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:11:50 -0700
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de><20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se><004401c014fc$a8548780$0101a8c0@iquest.net> <20000902173900P.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <001f01c01509$479e0080$0101a8c0@iquest.net>

OH, btw, FWIW, I work for RCA. We actually have a book on tube DACS
somewhere in the research library. I *know* I have seen it before. We have
some really great books in that research library. I could just spend all day
in there.. ; )

I will peek around for it and perhaps it will help this along and we will
get an answer sooner.

Rob

----- Original Message -----
From: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
To: <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
Cc: <buchi at takeonetech.de>; <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface


> From: "Rob" <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
> Subject: Re: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
> Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:41:30 -0700
>
> >
> > I could see an adjustable tube gain stage AFTER the dac, but...
> >
> > I don't see what gains you would get from having a tube dac.
>
> Yes, from a pure technical solution I would reason like this, IF I where
going
> to use tubes in the first place.
>
> However, it would be fashinating to learn if someone where able to do a
full-
> tube DAC, it's characteristics, it's schematics etc. It does not sound
like
> a big commercial hit thought.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>




From patchell at silcom.com  Sat Sep  2 21:22:18 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:22:18 -0700
Subject: MM5837?
References: <00ee01c01500$7181f720$6df182d0@8brain>
Message-ID: <39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com>

    All I can say is, good luck.  In one of my home made synths, I am pretty
sure I have one of these things.  You might be able to talk me out of it as a
last resort (I personally don't really care much for it, you can hear it
repeat, if you listen really carefully).  These went out of production a long
time ago.  Keep me posted if you can't find one.

    -Jim

Romeo Fahl wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm looking for an MM5837 ("Chugga Chugga") pseudo-random noise IC to do
> some experimenting with.  Does anyone have a spare or know of a source for
> one?
>
> Romeo

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep  2 21:25:27 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 21:25:27 +0200
Subject: 128fs
In-Reply-To: <39B0F636.E5D82F7C@artic.edu>
References: <39B0F636.E5D82F7C@artic.edu>
Message-ID: <20000902212527I.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Mush <dblum at artic.edu>
Subject: 128fs
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:44:40 +0000

> Can anyone give me a basic explanation of what "128fs" refers to?  I've seen
> it mentioned in some reference to masterclock, but i have no idea what it is
> or its function...what the difference between 1fs, 128fs, 256fs etc. is.

fs = f  = f         = sampling frequency
      s    sampling

Thus, 128fs is 128 * fs or put in another way, 128 times the sampling
frequency. It's just a ugly shorthand. I'm sure you can figure out 256fs from
this reasoning.

> Also if a converter has both spdif i/o and 128fs i/o, how do they function in
> relation to each other?

Both are serial formats, but where SPDIF is line encoded the "128fs i/o"
serial format contains clock, word clock and data. The word clock is required
for bit/word synchronisation. It should be pretty obvious from the datasheets
timing diagrams for instance on how to interprent these.

Cheers,
Magnus





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep  2 23:14:41 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 23:14:41 +0200
Subject: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com>
References: <00ee01c01500$7181f720$6df182d0@8brain>
	<39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: Re: MM5837?
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:22:18 -0700

>     All I can say is, good luck.  In one of my home made synths, I am pretty
> sure I have one of these things.  You might be able to talk me out of it as a
> last resort (I personally don't really care much for it, you can hear it
> repeat, if you listen really carefully).  These went out of production a long
> time ago.  Keep me posted if you can't find one.
> 
>     -Jim
> 
> Romeo Fahl wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm looking for an MM5837 ("Chugga Chugga") pseudo-random noise IC to do
> > some experimenting with.  Does anyone have a spare or know of a source for
> > one?

Do you really require the MM5837? It is not too complex to cook up a noise
source out of standard CMOS or TTL. If you go to the archives (Oh, I never
thougth I would refer to them!) you will find a thread on the subject, I recall
being part of it, I even posted a ASCII schematic in there...

If you really want a a 17 stage noise source it should not be too difficult to
make an equalent schematic, but a longer shifter is better. A 4006, a XOR gate
of choice and some clock generator (two of the XOR gates could be used for
that) and you have an equalent.

The MM5837 is a 17 bit shift register with feedback at the 14th tap. The MM5837
also has an internal oscillator which changes frequency with the supply power
(obviously!). Getting something equalent should not be too hard. Actually,
a 17-tap shift register is a bit too short... it will beat too obviously.

Anyway for some more info, check out:
http://www.vego.nl/8/18/8_18.htm
http://www.io.com/~ritter/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM

Cheers,
Magnus





From klosmon at earthlink.net  Sat Sep  2 23:52:04 2000
From: klosmon at earthlink.net (klosmon)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:52:04 -0700
Subject: CEM Oscillator woes
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000902145204.006abeec@earthlink.net>

Decided to unearth & recommission my old Curtis CEM 3340 vcos -- have two
on Paia experimenter cards and one on a homemade circuit from POLYPHONY --
the weird thing is that they ALL have the same problem:
altering the pulse width has an effect on the pitch.  It is the same effect
on all three waveforms;  measuring the control voltage going into the chip,
I see a change of about .06 volts moving the pulse width control from one
extreme to another.  this same effect occurs using external pwm voltages.
I've checked all I can think of to check (on all three units);  I've
switched power supplies.

This is all news to me.  I'd conclude that it's a systemic problem with the
CEM chips, but they work just fine in my Pro-One.
Anybody (who's still around, and not carousing for the three-day weekend)
ever encounter this?



From grichter at execpc.com  Sun Sep  3 00:48:51 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:48:51 -0500
Subject: CEM Oscillator woes
Message-ID: <200009022248.e82Mmrp67248@pop1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

PWM produces psychoacoustic pitch shifting, in the way the ear handles the
waveform. Are you monitoring the triangle wave output and hear the pitch
shift?

Try shorting out the resistors in series with the power rails on the Ekx
boards. That should prevent the voltage from shifting under load. John
always uses decoupling circuits and those can be a problem for VCOs.

----------
>From: klosmon <klosmon at earthlink.net>
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: CEM Oscillator woes
>Date: Sat, Sep 2, 2000, 4:52 PM
>

> Decided to unearth & recommission my old Curtis CEM 3340 vcos -- have two
> on Paia experimenter cards and one on a homemade circuit from POLYPHONY --
> the weird thing is that they ALL have the same problem:
> altering the pulse width has an effect on the pitch.  It is the same effect
> on all three waveforms;  measuring the control voltage going into the chip,
> I see a change of about .06 volts moving the pulse width control from one
> extreme to another.  this same effect occurs using external pwm voltages.
> I've checked all I can think of to check (on all three units);  I've
> switched power supplies.
>
> This is all news to me.  I'd conclude that it's a systemic problem with the
> CEM chips, but they work just fine in my Pro-One.
> Anybody (who's still around, and not carousing for the three-day weekend)
> ever encounter this?
> 



From Echophazer at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 01:20:51 2000
From: Echophazer at aol.com (Echophazer at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:20:51 EDT
Subject: noise, the 4006 and an xor
Message-ID: <6f.9fe5953.26e2e553@aol.com>

I have a circuit that a friend passed on to me that uses a 4006 shift 
register, cd4070 Quad XOR and the VCO section of a 4046. I'm sure someone has 
seen this before. I don't quite understand how the shift register and XOR 
gates do the things they do. This was a partially completed project of his 
and I have no schematics for the whole synth. If anyone knows a source to 
schematics for a noise circuit like this I'd also be appreciative.
Peter B 



From ka4hjh at gte.net  Sun Sep  3 02:07:05 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 20:07:05 -0400
Subject: noise, the 4006 and an xor
In-Reply-To: <6f.9fe5953.26e2e553@aol.com>
References: <6f.9fe5953.26e2e553@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b5d7468a0b8b@[63.28.152.86]>

>I have a circuit that a friend passed on to me that uses a 4006 shift
>register, cd4070 Quad XOR and the VCO section of a 4046. I'm sure someone has
>seen this before. I don't quite understand how the shift register and XOR
>gates do the things they do. This was a partially completed project of his
>and I have no schematics for the whole synth. If anyone knows a source to
>schematics for a noise circuit like this I'd also be appreciative.
>Peter B

Harry has a scan of that one.


-- 
Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"



From klosmon at earthlink.net  Sun Sep  3 02:10:54 2000
From: klosmon at earthlink.net (klosmon)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:10:54 -0700
Subject: CEM Oscillator woes
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000902171054.006ad1fc@earthlink.net>

>Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:48:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: CEM Oscillator woes
>From: "Grant Richter" <grichter at execpc.com>
>To: klosmon <klosmon at earthlink.net>, synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Try shorting out the resistors in series with the power rails on the Ekx
>boards. That should prevent the voltage from shifting under load. John
>always uses decoupling circuits and those can be a problem for VCOs.
>

Well, hell -- that was easy!  Tried it, & it worked -- pitch is rock solid
now.
I thank you, and my few remaining functional brain cells thank you.

>----------
>>From: klosmon <klosmon at earthlink.net>
>>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>>Subject: CEM Oscillator woes
>>Date: Sat, Sep 2, 2000, 4:52 PM
>>
>
>> Decided to unearth & recommission my old Curtis CEM 3340 vcos -- have two
>> on Paia experimenter cards and one on a homemade circuit from POLYPHONY --
>> the weird thing is that they ALL have the same problem:
>> altering the pulse width has an effect on the pitch.  It is the same effect
>> on all three waveforms;  measuring the control voltage going into the chip,
>> I see a change of about .06 volts moving the pulse width control from one
>> extreme to another.  this same effect occurs using external pwm voltages.
>> I've checked all I can think of to check (on all three units);  I've
>> switched power supplies.
>>
>> This is all news to me.  I'd conclude that it's a systemic problem with the
>> CEM chips, but they work just fine in my Pro-One.
>> Anybody (who's still around, and not carousing for the three-day weekend)
>> ever encounter this?
>> 
>
>



From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 12:27:37 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:27:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Studiomaster Instructions
Message-ID: <20000903102737.19084.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>

I recently got a secondhand Studiomaster 16/8/16
"mixdown" desk and am having some difficulty working
out where to put my send and returns for my effects
units. There are sockets that are marked "Send/Return"
and I am wondering if these require stereo jacks. I
suppose that I will eventually work out how to operate
this thing, but any hot tips just now might help, as
would instructions or a link to a manual.
Regards to all, Ken

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 12:29:52 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:29:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: noise, the 4006 and an xor/Wasp lfo
Message-ID: <20000903102952.21746.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>

An excellent version of the shift register type noise
source comes in the Wasp circuitry, It uses three
inverters from a 4069 configured as a clock plus the
4006 and the 4070. JH has scans of the Wasp and that circuit...JH?

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From music.maker at gte.net  Sun Sep  3 11:58:44 2000
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 11:58:44
Subject: MM5837?
Message-ID: <200009031903.OAA20241249@smtppop3.gte.net>

For anyone interested, I have a chart that lists the tap points
for up to 40 shiftregister stages.

http://www.teklab.com/~chordman/VoltageControlledNoiseGenerator.html

Go all the way to the bottom of the page.  There's also a
schematic of a 24 stage job that I built.  This one won't
repeat for a long time.  Note:  I actually have a "reset"
switch on the clear lines of the shift registers.  I've only
needed it once that I can remember. 

-- Scott Gravenhorst : On The Edge, but the Edge of What?
-- Linux Rex, Linux Vobiscum  |  RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: www.teklab.com/~chordman
-- NonFatMan: members.xoom.com/_XMCM/chordman/index.html
-- The 21st century does NOT start in the year 2000!!!





From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 15:56:39 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 14:56:39 +0100
Subject: Studiomaster Instructions
References: <20000903102737.19084.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007101c015b0$716d74c0$943c883e@default>

>There are sockets that are marked "Send/Return"

Not totally sure, but I would bet they are like many other desks and
have to use a TRS/stereo jack plug. The tip of the plug is the send and
the ring is the return in Yamaha desks... but it can be the other way
around, eg. in a Soundcraft.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From music.maker at gte.net  Sun Sep  3 14:57:42 2000
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:57:42
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
Message-ID: <200009032208.RAA20136926@smtppop2.gte.net>

Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net> wrote:
>Remember you need a mechanism to unlatch the generator from an all 1's
>(or 0's depends on logic) state, should this occur. Eventually (i think) the register
>will reach this state.  

Theory has it that it won't.  Look at a simple 3 or 4 bit system.
I think it could "lock" if poorly implemented, i.e. alot of
circuit noise from bad connections, poor power supply etc.
It really ought to run forever.

>The schematic I've posted in the past has an RC network to
>kick in a pulse if the time-out is reached. I have NEVER heard this audibly...
>
>H^) harry

-- Scott Gravenhorst : On The Edge, but the Edge of What?
-- Linux Rex, Linux Vobiscum  |  RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: www.teklab.com/~chordman
-- NonFatMan: members.xoom.com/_XMCM/chordman/index.html
-- The 21st century does NOT start in the year 2000!!!





From DCMagnuson at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 18:00:50 2000
From: DCMagnuson at aol.com (DCMagnuson at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:00:50 EDT
Subject: SH-101 and LFO sync
Message-ID: <b1.20b09c.26e3cfb2@aol.com>

Hi everyone,

I've been busy modifying a Roland SH-101, already adding a pot for the unused 
triangle wave from the CEM3340, 2 audio inputs, and a second LFO.  

I was wondering if anyone knows a good way to sync the new LFO to the stock 
one.  I can see on the schematic that TR4 looks like it resets the timing cap 
on the LFO.  The problem is that my scope needs some work, so I can't look at 
the waveform used for reset.  

If anyone can offer any tips on syncing this with my new LFO, that would be 
great.  BTW, the new LFO is very similar in design... a 2 opamp tri/square 
LFO... I think I used Tom G's LFO-1A if I recall correctly.

Also, speaking of sync... I don't have sync on any of my LFOs in my modular 
yet.  Can you get interesting effects by syncing your LFOs to your VCOs?  If 
so, I may want to use the hard/soft sync inputs on the 3340 as well.  Any 
benefit to doing this?

Thanks in advance,

Dave Magnuson



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep  3 19:48:13 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:48:13 -0400
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de>
		<20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se>
		<004401c014fc$a8548780$0101a8c0@iquest.net> <20000902173900P.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39B28EDD.15C85042@prodigy.net>

This has been discussed on list before... and a URL was given for the company
involved. I forgot who it was... I thought it was pretty... er... wacky ???

But they used a linear DAC ladder and switching, and fed it into a tube buffer
amp.
That what you're looking for ???

H^) harry

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: "Rob" <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
> Subject: Re: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
> Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:41:30 -0700
>
> >
> > I could see an adjustable tube gain stage AFTER the dac, but...
> >
> > I don't see what gains you would get from having a tube dac.
>
> Yes, from a pure technical solution I would reason like this, IF I where going
> to use tubes in the first place.
>
> However, it would be fashinating to learn if someone where able to do a full-
> tube DAC, it's characteristics, it's schematics etc. It does not sound like
> a big commercial hit thought.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep  3 19:55:03 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:55:03 -0400
Subject: MM5837?
References: <00ee01c01500$7181f720$6df182d0@8brain>
		<39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com> <20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net>

Likewise I have a schematic for one that I adapted from Popular Electronics.... and
used
in the Prophet V to replace the... (gawdawful) ... chugga chugga unit ! will send
scan to
any who requests...

H^) harry

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> Subject: Re: MM5837?
> Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:22:18 -0700
>
> >     All I can say is, good luck.  In one of my home made synths, I am pretty
> > sure I have one of these things.  You might be able to talk me out of it as a
> > last resort (I personally don't really care much for it, you can hear it
> > repeat, if you listen really carefully).  These went out of production a long
> > time ago.  Keep me posted if you can't find one.
> >
> >     -Jim
> >
> > Romeo Fahl wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I'm looking for an MM5837 ("Chugga Chugga") pseudo-random noise IC to do
> > > some experimenting with.  Does anyone have a spare or know of a source for
> > > one?
>
> Do you really require the MM5837? It is not too complex to cook up a noise
> source out of standard CMOS or TTL. If you go to the archives (Oh, I never
> thougth I would refer to them!) you will find a thread on the subject, I recall
> being part of it, I even posted a ASCII schematic in there...
>
> If you really want a a 17 stage noise source it should not be too difficult to
> make an equalent schematic, but a longer shifter is better. A 4006, a XOR gate
> of choice and some clock generator (two of the XOR gates could be used for
> that) and you have an equalent.
>
> The MM5837 is a 17 bit shift register with feedback at the 14th tap. The MM5837
> also has an internal oscillator which changes frequency with the supply power
> (obviously!). Getting something equalent should not be too hard. Actually,
> a 17-tap shift register is a bit too short... it will beat too obviously.
>
> Anyway for some more info, check out:
> http://www.vego.nl/8/18/8_18.htm
> http://www.io.com/~ritter/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep  3 20:23:58 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:23:58 +0200
Subject: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net>
References: <39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com>
	<20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20000903202358I.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: MM5837?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:55:03 -0400

> Likewise I have a schematic for one that I adapted from Popular Electronics.... and
> used
> in the Prophet V to replace the... (gawdawful) ... chugga chugga unit ! will send
> scan to
> any who requests...

For those of interest there is an 4006 based noise generator in the Formant, so
just going to Anders Sponton's site you have have that. It's in the second
book under the name of DNG. In the ETI/Powertran Vocoder (which you also find
on Anders site) there is another 4006 based PRNG.

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep  3 20:55:31 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:55:31 +0200
Subject: one/F noise source ckt?
In-Reply-To: <v02130501b5af29fcf68c@[208.25.89.80]>
References: <v02130501b5af29fcf68c@[208.25.89.80]>
Message-ID: <20000903205531M.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Kirke Sonnichsen <kirke at lmi.net>
Subject: Re: one/F noise source ckt?
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 06:54:37 -0700

> Didn't Bob Moog have some clever way of making a -3dB filter
> for the pink noise source in the MiniMoog?
> 
> I seem to remeber reading something about that but, it was
> such a long time ago...

Well, I just checked the MiniMoog Service Manual and it is not something very
clever, he just filters it. It is a fairly simple filter. It falls into one of
those "good enougth" approximations.

The ASM-1 noise source has equalent complexity and similar design.

Cheers,
Magnus




From dragonser at clara.net  Sun Sep  3 21:47:48 2000
From: dragonser at clara.net (Peter Blackett)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:47:48 +0100
Subject: Diode identification 
Message-ID: <39B2AAE4.E164A93C@clara.net>

Hi,
just wondered if any of you know an equivalent to the diode type 
1S1555   ?
seems to be a Japanese part [ used in a Yamaha keyboard ] .
after doing a web search I'm told it might be equivalent to a NTe 506 
[ I think this is a Usa based company that does equivalent parts ].
anyone got any suggestions .
the diode is used in a switching circuit with about 30 v dc on it .
Is there a book similar to the Towers tansistor guide but for diodes ?
regards Peter





From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep  3 22:31:59 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:31:59 -0700
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
References: <00ee01c01500$7181f720$6df182d0@8brain>
			<39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com> <20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com>

    Here I am listening to my chugga chugga (I found it, didn't even have to do so by
inspection, I just listened to it, it is a whole lot worse than I remember), and a good
solution to this problem is staring me right in the face.

    If you would all please turn to page 147 in the good book (Digikey-July-Sept 2000),
you will notice that the XC9536-15PC44C is only $3.30 in unit quantities.  It would be
entirely posible to put a 32 bit shift reg and XOR feedback into one of these little
suckers.  I just have to dig up the article I have stashed somewhere that shows which
cells to tap.  About a half hour at Xilinx Foundation, and I should have a hex file.
(Although, I will not be back at work until this Wedensday).  I would post the hex file
and schematic (and encourage others to post it on their site).

    Anybody interested?

    -Jim

Harry Bissell wrote:

> Likewise I have a schematic for one that I adapted from Popular Electronics.... and
> used
> in the Prophet V to replace the... (gawdawful) ... chugga chugga unit ! will send
> scan to
> any who requests...
>
> H^) harry
>
> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>
> > From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> > Subject: Re: MM5837?
> > Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:22:18 -0700
> >
> > >     All I can say is, good luck.  In one of my home made synths, I am pretty
> > > sure I have one of these things.  You might be able to talk me out of it as a
> > > last resort (I personally don't really care much for it, you can hear it
> > > repeat, if you listen really carefully).  These went out of production a long
> > > time ago.  Keep me posted if you can't find one.
> > >
> > >     -Jim
> > >
> > > Romeo Fahl wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > I'm looking for an MM5837 ("Chugga Chugga") pseudo-random noise IC to do
> > > > some experimenting with.  Does anyone have a spare or know of a source for
> > > > one?
> >
> > Do you really require the MM5837? It is not too complex to cook up a noise
> > source out of standard CMOS or TTL. If you go to the archives (Oh, I never
> > thougth I would refer to them!) you will find a thread on the subject, I recall
> > being part of it, I even posted a ASCII schematic in there...
> >
> > If you really want a a 17 stage noise source it should not be too difficult to
> > make an equalent schematic, but a longer shifter is better. A 4006, a XOR gate
> > of choice and some clock generator (two of the XOR gates could be used for
> > that) and you have an equalent.
> >
> > The MM5837 is a 17 bit shift register with feedback at the 14th tap. The MM5837
> > also has an internal oscillator which changes frequency with the supply power
> > (obviously!). Getting something equalent should not be too hard. Actually,
> > a 17-tap shift register is a bit too short... it will beat too obviously.
> >
> > Anyway for some more info, check out:
> > http://www.vego.nl/8/18/8_18.htm
> > http://www.io.com/~ritter/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep  3 22:41:43 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:41:43 -0700
Subject: one/F noise source ckt?
References: <v02130501b5af29fcf68c@[208.25.89.80]> <20000903205531M.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39B2B787.D9273B96@silcom.com>

    I found what you need in one of my Active Filter books.  To get a "true" -3db
per octave rolloff, you need to use a resistor with ditributed capacitance.  If
you were to model this with lumped components it would be equivilent to an
infinate number of resistors in series with an infinate number of shunt
capacitors.  The only draw back to this is I somehow don't think you are going to
find anybody selling such a component.

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: Kirke Sonnichsen <kirke at lmi.net>
> Subject: Re: one/F noise source ckt?
> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 06:54:37 -0700
>
> > Didn't Bob Moog have some clever way of making a -3dB filter
> > for the pink noise source in the MiniMoog?
> >
> > I seem to remeber reading something about that but, it was
> > such a long time ago...
>
> Well, I just checked the MiniMoog Service Manual and it is not something very
> clever, he just filters it. It is a fairly simple filter. It falls into one of
> those "good enougth" approximations.
>
> The ASM-1 noise source has equalent complexity and similar design.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep  3 23:20:33 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:20:33 -0400
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
References: <00ee01c01500$7181f720$6df182d0@8brain>
				<39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com> <20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net> <39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39B2C0A0.665ADC7E@prodigy.net>

Remember you need a mechanism to unlatch the generator from an all 1's
(or 0's depends on logic) state, should this occur. Eventually (i think) the register
will reach this state.  The schematic I've posted in the past has an RC network to
kick in a pulse if the time-out is reached. I have NEVER heard this audibly...

H^) harry

patchell wrote:

>     Here I am listening to my chugga chugga (I found it, didn't even have to do so by
> inspection, I just listened to it, it is a whole lot worse than I remember), and a good
> solution to this problem is staring me right in the face.
>
>     If you would all please turn to page 147 in the good book (Digikey-July-Sept 2000),
> you will notice that the XC9536-15PC44C is only $3.30 in unit quantities.  It would be
> entirely posible to put a 32 bit shift reg and XOR feedback into one of these little
> suckers.  I just have to dig up the article I have stashed somewhere that shows which
> cells to tap.  About a half hour at Xilinx Foundation, and I should have a hex file.
> (Although, I will not be back at work until this Wedensday).  I would post the hex file
> and schematic (and encourage others to post it on their site).
>
>     Anybody interested?
>
>     -Jim
>
> Harry Bissell wrote:
>
> > Likewise I have a schematic for one that I adapted from Popular Electronics.... and
> > used
> > in the Prophet V to replace the... (gawdawful) ... chugga chugga unit ! will send
> > scan to
> > any who requests...
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > Magnus Danielson wrote:
> >
> > > From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> > > Subject: Re: MM5837?
> > > Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:22:18 -0700
> > >
> > > >     All I can say is, good luck.  In one of my home made synths, I am pretty
> > > > sure I have one of these things.  You might be able to talk me out of it as a
> > > > last resort (I personally don't really care much for it, you can hear it
> > > > repeat, if you listen really carefully).  These went out of production a long
> > > > time ago.  Keep me posted if you can't find one.
> > > >
> > > >     -Jim
> > > >
> > > > Romeo Fahl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm looking for an MM5837 ("Chugga Chugga") pseudo-random noise IC to do
> > > > > some experimenting with.  Does anyone have a spare or know of a source for
> > > > > one?
> > >
> > > Do you really require the MM5837? It is not too complex to cook up a noise
> > > source out of standard CMOS or TTL. If you go to the archives (Oh, I never
> > > thougth I would refer to them!) you will find a thread on the subject, I recall
> > > being part of it, I even posted a ASCII schematic in there...
> > >
> > > If you really want a a 17 stage noise source it should not be too difficult to
> > > make an equalent schematic, but a longer shifter is better. A 4006, a XOR gate
> > > of choice and some clock generator (two of the XOR gates could be used for
> > > that) and you have an equalent.
> > >
> > > The MM5837 is a 17 bit shift register with feedback at the 14th tap. The MM5837
> > > also has an internal oscillator which changes frequency with the supply power
> > > (obviously!). Getting something equalent should not be too hard. Actually,
> > > a 17-tap shift register is a bit too short... it will beat too obviously.
> > >
> > > Anyway for some more info, check out:
> > > http://www.vego.nl/8/18/8_18.htm
> > > http://www.io.com/~ritter/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Magnus
>
> --
>  -Jim
> ------------------------------------------------
> * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> *-----------------------------------------------
> *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> * You didn't pay enough!
> ------------------------------------------------




From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep  3 23:24:29 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:24:29 -0700
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
References: <00ee01c01500$7181f720$6df182d0@8brain>
					<39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com> <20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net> <39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com> <39B2C0A0.665ADC7E@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39B2C18D.17C89AE9@silcom.com>



Harry Bissell wrote:

> Remember you need a mechanism to unlatch the generator from an all 1's
> (or 0's depends on logic) state, should this occur. Eventually (i think) the register
> will reach this state.  The schematic I've posted in the past has an RC network to
> kick in a pulse if the time-out is reached. I have NEVER heard this audibly...
>
> H^) harry
>

    This would not be a big deal.  Under normal operations, the shift register will not get
into the all '1's state, however, external influenes (electrical static, ground glitches,
EMP) it might be posisble to have this happen.  It would be easy to add in circuitry to check
for all 1's and reset it back to zero.

>
> patchell wrote:
>
> >     Here I am listening to my chugga chugga (I found it, didn't even have to do so by
> > inspection, I just listened to it, it is a whole lot worse than I remember), and a good
> > solution to this problem is staring me right in the face.
> >
> >     If you would all please turn to page 147 in the good book (Digikey-July-Sept 2000),
> > you will notice that the XC9536-15PC44C is only $3.30 in unit quantities.  It would be
> > entirely posible to put a 32 bit shift reg and XOR feedback into one of these little
> > suckers.  I just have to dig up the article I have stashed somewhere that shows which
> > cells to tap.  About a half hour at Xilinx Foundation, and I should have a hex file.
> > (Although, I will not be back at work until this Wedensday).  I would post the hex file
> > and schematic (and encourage others to post it on their site).
> >
> >     Anybody interested?
> >
> >     -Jim
> >
> > Harry Bissell wrote:
> >
> > > Likewise I have a schematic for one that I adapted from Popular Electronics.... and
> > > used
> > > in the Prophet V to replace the... (gawdawful) ... chugga chugga unit ! will send
> > > scan to
> > > any who requests...
> > >
> > > H^) harry
> > >
> > > Magnus Danielson wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: MM5837?
> > > > Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:22:18 -0700
> > > >
> > > > >     All I can say is, good luck.  In one of my home made synths, I am pretty
> > > > > sure I have one of these things.  You might be able to talk me out of it as a
> > > > > last resort (I personally don't really care much for it, you can hear it
> > > > > repeat, if you listen really carefully).  These went out of production a long
> > > > > time ago.  Keep me posted if you can't find one.
> > > > >
> > > > >     -Jim
> > > > >
> > > > > Romeo Fahl wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm looking for an MM5837 ("Chugga Chugga") pseudo-random noise IC to do
> > > > > > some experimenting with.  Does anyone have a spare or know of a source for
> > > > > > one?
> > > >
> > > > Do you really require the MM5837? It is not too complex to cook up a noise
> > > > source out of standard CMOS or TTL. If you go to the archives (Oh, I never
> > > > thougth I would refer to them!) you will find a thread on the subject, I recall
> > > > being part of it, I even posted a ASCII schematic in there...
> > > >
> > > > If you really want a a 17 stage noise source it should not be too difficult to
> > > > make an equalent schematic, but a longer shifter is better. A 4006, a XOR gate
> > > > of choice and some clock generator (two of the XOR gates could be used for
> > > > that) and you have an equalent.
> > > >
> > > > The MM5837 is a 17 bit shift register with feedback at the 14th tap. The MM5837
> > > > also has an internal oscillator which changes frequency with the supply power
> > > > (obviously!). Getting something equalent should not be too hard. Actually,
> > > > a 17-tap shift register is a bit too short... it will beat too obviously.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway for some more info, check out:
> > > > http://www.vego.nl/8/18/8_18.htm
> > > > http://www.io.com/~ritter/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Magnus
> >
> > --
> >  -Jim
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> > *-----------------------------------------------
> > *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> > * You didn't pay enough!
> > ------------------------------------------------

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep  3 23:26:59 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:26:59 -0700
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
References: <20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se>
		<39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net>
		<39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com> <20000903232925V.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39B2C223.AA208F3B@silcom.com>

    36 bits.....8 Mhz clock......Hmmm.. I get a repeat rate of 2 hours 22 minutes or so.  I
don't think you would hear that.  1 MHz clock would be 19 hours.....100KHz would be a week...

    Is that long enough for everybody?

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:31:59 -0700
>
> >     Here I am listening to my chugga chugga (I found it, didn't even have to do so by
> > inspection, I just listened to it, it is a whole lot worse than I remember), and a good
> > solution to this problem is staring me right in the face.
> >
> >     If you would all please turn to page 147 in the good book (Digikey-July-Sept 2000),
> > you will notice that the XC9536-15PC44C is only $3.30 in unit quantities.  It would be
> > entirely posible to put a 32 bit shift reg and XOR feedback into one of these little
> > suckers.  I just have to dig up the article I have stashed somewhere that shows which
> > cells to tap.  About a half hour at Xilinx Foundation, and I should have a hex file.
> > (Although, I will not be back at work until this Wedensday).  I would post the hex file
> > and schematic (and encourage others to post it on their site).
> >
> >     Anybody interested?
>
> Good idea. You should be able to get a 36 tap easy, just tap at 25 and you are
> home free. The XC9536 contains 36 macro-blocks and each of those contains an
> DFF.
>
> The good point about a loooooong sequence is that you can afford a higher
> clockrate without the risc of frequent looping. Also, as it has been pointed
> out before, you get a denser frequency spectrum so single frequencies does not
> stick out in narrow filters.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep  3 23:29:25 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 23:29:25 +0200
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com>
References: <20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net>
	<39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000903232925V.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:31:59 -0700

>     Here I am listening to my chugga chugga (I found it, didn't even have to do so by
> inspection, I just listened to it, it is a whole lot worse than I remember), and a good
> solution to this problem is staring me right in the face.
> 
>     If you would all please turn to page 147 in the good book (Digikey-July-Sept 2000),
> you will notice that the XC9536-15PC44C is only $3.30 in unit quantities.  It would be
> entirely posible to put a 32 bit shift reg and XOR feedback into one of these little
> suckers.  I just have to dig up the article I have stashed somewhere that shows which
> cells to tap.  About a half hour at Xilinx Foundation, and I should have a hex file.
> (Although, I will not be back at work until this Wedensday).  I would post the hex file
> and schematic (and encourage others to post it on their site).
> 
>     Anybody interested?

Good idea. You should be able to get a 36 tap easy, just tap at 25 and you are
home free. The XC9536 contains 36 macro-blocks and each of those contains an
DFF.

The good point about a loooooong sequence is that you can afford a higher
clockrate without the risc of frequent looping. Also, as it has been pointed
out before, you get a denser frequency spectrum so single frequencies does not
stick out in narrow filters.

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep  3 23:38:40 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 23:38:40 +0200
Subject: one/F noise source ckt?
In-Reply-To: <39B2B787.D9273B96@silcom.com>
References: <v02130501b5af29fcf68c@[208.25.89.80]>
	<20000903205531M.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39B2B787.D9273B96@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000903233840C.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: Re: one/F noise source ckt?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:41:43 -0700

>     I found what you need in one of my Active Filter books.  To get a "true" -3db
> per octave rolloff, you need to use a resistor with ditributed capacitance.  If
> you were to model this with lumped components it would be equivilent to an
> infinate number of resistors in series with an infinate number of shunt
> capacitors.  The only draw back to this is I somehow don't think you are going to
> find anybody selling such a component.

Oh, yes... they are called capacitors ;D

Good old big-bearded Bob Pease has written about capacitors and to model them
correctly you need a distributed cap/resistor network. I do wounder however if
they even approximate values which are suitable for the - 3 dB/Oct curve.

However, it is true that it would require an infinitly long sequence to make
a true filter. We could make approximations to within some limits and within
some frequency span.

Cheers,
Magnus





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep  3 23:48:28 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 23:48:28 +0200
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <39B2C0A0.665ADC7E@prodigy.net>
References: <39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net>
	<39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com>
	<39B2C0A0.665ADC7E@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20000903234828D.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:20:33 -0400

> Remember you need a mechanism to unlatch the generator from an all 1's
> (or 0's depends on logic) state, should this occur. Eventually (i think) the
> register will reach this state.  The schematic I've posted in the past has an
> RC network to kick in a pulse if the time-out is reached. I have NEVER heard
> this audibly...

Given a 1 in the shift register you will allways get at least a 1 in the shift
register. If you have an MLS sequency polynom you have a two statemachines, one
with 1 state and one with 2^n-1 states. Those two state machines will take up
all 2^n possible states in the shift register. The only thing you have to
worry about is ensuring you end up in the right state-machine, so forcing a 1
into the statemachine as a reset will be enough. You could also do some logic
which will look at all the outputs and if they all are zero, then or in a
1 into the first shift register. There is room for such logic in the XC9536
since the PAL fields is virtually unused anyway.

So, a true MLS sequence will allways loop automatically. If your doesn't loop,
there is something fundamentally wrong.

There are simple tests to ensure that a polynom will loop.

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep  3 23:59:10 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 23:59:10 +0200
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <39B2C223.AA208F3B@silcom.com>
References: <39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com>
	<20000903232925V.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39B2C223.AA208F3B@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000903235910W.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: Re: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:26:59 -0700

Hi,

>     36 bits.....8 Mhz clock......Hmmm.. I get a repeat rate of 2 hours 22 minutes or so.  I
> don't think you would hear that.  1 MHz clock would be 19 hours.....100KHz would be a week...
> 
>     Is that long enough for everybody?

That would be long enought for most of us, and then, we use up the component
better. We could probably cram out even more juice from it by letting leftover
PAL fields do additional shift registers, but that would be somewhat sinister.

Another benefit of such approach is that you could rather freely select almost
any clock available.

What could be done pretty easy is to program up diffrent lengths, so that
people could have access to shorter lengths if they so wishes.

Cheers,
Magnus




From dragonser at clara.net  Mon Sep  4 00:14:14 2000
From: dragonser at clara.net (Peter Blackett)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 23:14:14 +0100
Subject: additions to bookmark list 
Message-ID: <39B2CD36.D0B2509F@clara.net>

Hi,
I'm just in the process of updating the bookmarks on my web page .
Anyone have a synth diy site they would like to have included ?
Please reply off the list to keep the list Tidy ......
regards Peter




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Sep  4 00:18:34 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:18:34 -0400
Subject: one/F noise source ckt?
References: <v02130501b5af29fcf68c@[208.25.89.80]>
		<20000903205531M.cfmd@swipnet.se>
		<39B2B787.D9273B96@silcom.com> <20000903233840C.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39B2CE39.BD21ABB9@prodigy.net>

Hi Magnus...

Bob Pease was referring to dielectric absorption, which models with caps separated
by very large resistances (so to speak).  The "pink noise" filter I've seen used
"stagger tuned" filter sections.  Works over a limited range....

H^) harry

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> Subject: Re: one/F noise source ckt?
> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:41:43 -0700
>
> >     I found what you need in one of my Active Filter books.  To get a "true" -3db
> > per octave rolloff, you need to use a resistor with ditributed capacitance.  If
> > you were to model this with lumped components it would be equivilent to an
> > infinate number of resistors in series with an infinate number of shunt
> > capacitors.  The only draw back to this is I somehow don't think you are going to
> > find anybody selling such a component.
>
> Oh, yes... they are called capacitors ;D
>
> Good old big-bearded Bob Pease has written about capacitors and to model them
> correctly you need a distributed cap/resistor network. I do wounder however if
> they even approximate values which are suitable for the - 3 dB/Oct curve.
>
> However, it is true that it would require an infinitly long sequence to make
> a true filter. We could make approximations to within some limits and within
> some frequency span.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus




From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Mon Sep  4 00:41:37 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 22:41:37 +0000
Subject: MM5837?
References: <39B1536A.C4E411BE@silcom.com>
		<20000902231441S.cfmd@swipnet.se>
		<39B29077.EE8E8980@prodigy.net> <20000903202358I.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39B2D3A0.F07834C5@wanadoo.fr>

>
>
> For those of interest there is an 4006 based noise generator in the Formant, so
> just going to Anders Sponton's site you have have that. It's in the second
> book under the name of DNG. In the ETI/Powertran Vocoder (which you also find
> on Anders site) there is another 4006 based PRNG.
>

BTW, the voice/unvoice detector of the Elektor vocoder also
features a 4015 based noise generator (with 31 bits shift
register) driven by a 500 Hz clock.
According to the article, it takes 70 min before the
sequence repeats itself...

jbv





From tpaddock at seanet.com  Mon Sep  4 01:04:32 2000
From: tpaddock at seanet.com (Toby Paddock)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:04:32 -0700
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <01C015C0.EAAA3020@dialup-209.244.108.86.Seattle1.Level3.net>

I found some old diodes and transistors and I was 
thinking of maybe trying them out as noise sources.
I'm guessing some of them are germanium because 
I got them as hand-me-downs in the late 60's.

Is there a rule of thumb for what a safe current 
is for reverse breakdown? Or does it depend 
on the device? I don't want to kill them. Some 
of them are kind of cute.

 - -- -  Toby Paddock





From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 01:21:19 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 00:21:19 +0100 (BST)
Subject: elp
Message-ID: <20000903232119.20875.qmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com>

In the end, I, my friends shall give in to a good
listening to the old salad number. I just haD BEER....

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Mon Sep  4 01:58:08 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:58:08 -0600
Subject: VCO update
Message-ID: <001301c01602$e06bf110$d877143f@Studio1>

Listers --

I've spent some time to put my latest tri VCO onto a real circuit board
(well, OK, it's just vectorboard). I made a few minor modifications and
changed the compensation scheme around a bit. Also, I developed a new
tri->saw waveshaper, using analog switches driven directly from the
comparitors in the main oscillator. This gives a very clean sawtooth. I also
investigated a new synchronization method using pulses to "kick" the
oscillator, rather than resetting the waveform.

It's all up on my website (VCO2, under synth circuits), so I won't go into
more detail here. Let me know what you think!

  Ian

http://home.earthlink.net/~ijfritz




From patchell at silcom.com  Mon Sep  4 02:36:47 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:36:47 -0700
Subject: VCO update
References: <001301c01602$e06bf110$d877143f@Studio1>
Message-ID: <39B2EE9E.F57F5D65@silcom.com>



Ian Fritz wrote:

> Listers --
>
> I've spent some time to put my latest tri VCO onto a real circuit board
> (well, OK, it's just vectorboard). I made a few minor modifications and
> changed the compensation scheme around a bit. Also, I developed a new
> tri->saw waveshaper, using analog switches driven directly from the
> comparitors in the main oscillator. This gives a very clean sawtooth.

    I did something similar a long time ago.  I used a BJT for the switch, and
there was only one, but same idea, reversed the gain of an op-amp stage.  Even
the BJT version worked pretty good.  Except I needed a pot to make sure the two
segments lined up.  Never had a triangle oscialtor since, so I never had any
need to re-visit that methode.  The CEM3340 does basically the same thing as
well.

> I also
> investigated a new synchronization method using pulses to "kick" the
> oscillator, rather than resetting the waveform.
>

    This sounds pretty cool.  Can you put together a short MP3 of an oscilator
attaining "sync"?

>
> It's all up on my website (VCO2, under synth circuits), so I won't go into
> more detail here. Let me know what you think!
>
>   Ian
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~ijfritz

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From houshu at dsp.cl.nec.co.jp  Mon Sep  4 03:41:35 2000
From: houshu at dsp.cl.nec.co.jp (Osamu Hoshuyama)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 10:41:35 +0900
Subject: one/F noise source ckt? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:55:31 +0200."
             <20000903205531M.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <200009040141.KAA18445@luke.dsp.cl.nec.co.jp>

Hello List members,

> Date:    Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:55:31 +0200
> From:    Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
> Well, I just checked the MiniMoog Service Manual and it is not something very
> clever, he just filters it. It is a fairly simple filter. It falls into one of
> those "good enougth" approximations.
> 
> The ASM-1 noise source has equalent complexity and similar design.

I agree with you.  For audio, these filters are sufficient
approximations.

If less error is needed, the following Japanese page on -3dB/oct
filter may be useful.  Not only circuit, but measured response are
there.  Even if you can't read Japanese, you can get sufficient
information from schematics. 

http://www.omninet.co.jp/workshop/analog/WHITPINK.HTM

In the following page, the simplest way to get pink noise is proposed.
It uses a MOS FET as the noise source.  Measured FFT result indicates
that the MOS FET generates almost perfect pink noise (1/f noise). 

http://www.omninet.co.jp/workshop/analog/PINK.HTM

Hope this helps.
- -- ---- ----------- --- --- - ----- -- --- --- - - ------ - - - --
 Osamu HOSHUYAMA          Digital Signal Processing Technology Group
                    C&C Media Research Laboratories, NEC Corporation
               Email: houshu at ccm.CL.nec.co.jp,  Fax: +81-44-856-2232
--------------------------------------------------------------------



From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Mon Sep  4 05:11:32 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:11:32 -0600
Subject: VCO update
References: <001301c01602$e06bf110$d877143f@Studio1> <39B2EE9E.F57F5D65@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c0161d$d444df80$7f57143f@Studio1>

Jim --

Thanks for the reminder about the CEM3340. I went back and looked at their
literature and discovered that they used the same synchronization technique
(their "hard sync"). They even show the folded waveshapes I tried to
describe. As for saw converters, I think all techniques use some kind of
switched inverter. The other ones I tried produced bigger glitches at the
switching point, though.

  Ian

----- Original Message -----
>
>     I did something similar a long time ago.  I used a BJT for the switch,
and
> there was only one, but same idea, reversed the gain of an op-amp stage.
Even
> the BJT version worked pretty good.  Except I needed a pot to make sure
the two
> segments lined up.  Never had a triangle oscialtor since, so I never had
any
> need to re-visit that methode.  The CEM3340 does basically the same thing
as
> well.
>





From diode at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 06:48:49 2000
From: diode at hotmail.com (danial stocks)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 04:48:49 GMT
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
Message-ID: <LAW-F244gaMROlT4Eml000058ff@hotmail.com>

Also have a look in the TR909 Kick drum cct.. It uses a digital noise 
generator of some sort.. uses a pair of 4006's for sregs [which makes a 36 
stage..]
Cheers,
Dan
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From ka4hjh at gte.net  Mon Sep  4 08:21:13 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 02:21:13 -0400
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <20000903235910W.cfmd@swipnet.se>
References: <39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com>
 <20000903232925V.cfmd@swipnet.se>	<39B2C223.AA208F3B@silcom.com>
 <20000903235910W.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <p04330104b5d8ef7d0a7a@[63.28.152.24]>

>  >     36 bits.....8 Mhz clock......Hmmm.. I get a repeat rate of 2 
>hours 22 minutes or so.  I
>>  don't think you would hear that.  1 MHz clock would be 19 
>>hours.....100KHz would be a week...
>>
>>      Is that long enough for everybody?

Long enough for me.


>That would be long enought for most of us, and then, we use up the component
>better. We could probably cram out even more juice from it by letting leftover
>PAL fields do additional shift registers, but that would be somewhat sinister.
>
>Another benefit of such approach is that you could rather freely select almost
>any clock available.

That would also be desirable.


>What could be done pretty easy is to program up diffrent lengths, so that
>people could have access to shorter lengths if they so wishes.

Give us room to play...


-- 
Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"



From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 10:12:53 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:12:53 +0100
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
References: <39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com><20000903232925V.cfmd@swipnet.se><39B2C223.AA208F3B@silcom.com> <20000903235910W.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <00a901c01649$c2ecdae0$7553883e@default>

Hi all,

Hasn't our very own 'Old Crow' done the very thing in a PIC? Scott?
Wasn't it pin for pin replacement too?

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From Bojan.Burkeljc at campus.fe.uni-lj.si  Mon Sep  4 11:31:44 2000
From: Bojan.Burkeljc at campus.fe.uni-lj.si (Bojan Burkeljc)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:31:44 +0200
Subject: OT: Anyone from Nuernberg?
Message-ID: <39B36C00.5481758D@campus.fe.uni-lj.si>

Hello!

Sorry for off-topicness, but I wonder if there is by any chance anyone from
Nuernberg on the list. I'm going there for a week and I would like to know
for any electronic shop to buy some stuff I can't get over here.

Regards,
Bojan

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://pages.hotbot.com/edu/syncon/   
      ...the place for your daily dose of DIY




From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Mon Sep  4 13:58:31 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:58:31 +0100 
Subject: MM5837?
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C0E@LON-MAIL07>

>>>Wasn't that the chip used in the MemoryMoog? If it was then
> I'd recommend avoiding it at all costs for audio rate noise!
> You can easily hear the pattern (they didn't call it psudeo
> for nothing!)<<<
> 
I always thought the white noise in the rogue sounded pants, and wondered
why it had this "digital" feel about it. anybody confirm the use of shift
regs in later moogs?

d.


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From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Mon Sep  4 13:59:33 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:59:33 +0100 
Subject: elp
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C0F@LON-MAIL07>

>>>In the end, I, my friends shall give in to a good
> listening to the old salad number. I just haD BEER....<<<
> 
good lad- bit of brain salad surgery never did any harm..... but stay away
from the nagle-cakes  :-)

d.


***************************************************************************
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of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
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in any form whatsoever.
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From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 14:30:40 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:30:40 +0100
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
Message-ID: <001601c0166e$9317d480$441e883e@default>

Hi all,

The new Maplin catalogue came through my letter box this morning. This
really is bad news, the once great supplier of electronic stuff of all
sorts, actually has a catalogue so small it fits through my tiny letter
box. The semiconductor section is a hoot. As an example; it has only two
analogue switches for sale. Maplin seem to be more interested in selling
the computer hardware side of things, and most of those have no price
attached.

CPC on the other hand is a very good company, if only you could get on
to their website or even possibly get hold of a catalogue. Account
holders only I'm afraid. Why? Heaven knows.

RS gave me a laugh last week. I ordered some stuff on line, only to be
told by phone the next day that the parts should be delivered in April.
April... I ask you... I have to presume that it is April next year, as
opposed to April 2002.

Rather different topic, sort of. Behringer have not sent a single mixer
to the UK since January. Which means if you wanted to buy a MX2442A,
which I did, well, you can't get one. They misread the market place and
just didn't make enough. In fact, many of Behringer's products seem to
have gone into the very rare category. UK dealers are not impressed...
and nor was I. Spares are also a problem too I was told. It generally
appears that the larger analogue mixers are not in fashion at the moment
so I was told on umpteen occasions. 'Don't you want a digital mixer?' No
I don't... call me a luddite if you want.

Thank heavens for a Yamaha GF24-12. Nice desk, very good price.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan








From buchi at takeonetech.de  Mon Sep  4 14:44:45 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:44:45 GMT
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
In-Reply-To: <39AFBAFD.C4D6051D@cityweb.de>
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de> <39AFBAFD.C4D6051D@cityweb.de>
Message-ID: <39b79932.153141257@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

>So you're into building an 16 bit DAC from discrete parts? Aren't there
>hard to get (precision) parts involved?

My first thought was also that the linearity would be poor. This was the
reason why i have biult the 8 bit version for parallel port inferfacing; so
i could test whether there would problems arise.
I ised some old GE 5963 tubes (just because that where the only ones i had
9 of the same type and vintage), and built a R/2R ladder.
When i put a simple 8 bit counter at the input, i saw a perfect saw on my scope,
much better than what i have expected (i thought i would have to fiddle with pots
to adjust the tubes because of their varying gain)

Everything has been built from standard 1% Resistors; caps are not critcal here
because just used for P/S bypassing.


-Michael Buchstaller



From buchi at takeonetech.de  Mon Sep  4 14:44:53 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:44:53 GMT
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
In-Reply-To: <20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se>
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de> <20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39b89942.153157132@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

>However, what I am woundering is really what the point is here... are you
>really using tubes as the fundament switches of the D/A ladder?

Yes, i do. a simple gain stage, followed by a cathode follower to make sure
that loading from the R/2R chain will not alter the voltage coming from the
1st stage.

>I'm not a tube-head, but how well can one calibrate them as stable switchable
>voltage or current sources? As you go for more bits this will become more and
>more important since it causes distorsion, and not the kind of distorsion that
>you are looking for.

As i have seen with the 8 bits variant, i did not calibrate anything and it worked
surprisingly well.
In this project, i am not looking into real distortion. But i have built some tube amps
so far, and i feel it as a challenge to eventually build an all-tube digital amp.
(excluded the SPDIF interface chip and some glue logic) No semiconductors
anywhere in the audio path !

honestly, i do not know if it will make really an audible difference to commercial
converters, but i just want to do it !

>Anyway, if this is what you are intending to do it certainly sounds like a
>odd-ball project. It would be interesting to see how it turns out. Personally
>I would stick with a commercial linear DAC.

If more people are interested, i could make a simple web page with photos
and schematics.

>Well, I would be looking at the Crystal Semiconductor ones to start with.

I will be looking at their web site. Hopefully someone will sell me single parts.


-Michael Buchstaller



From buchi at takeonetech.de  Mon Sep  4 14:49:27 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:49:27 GMT
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
In-Reply-To: <39B28EDD.15C85042@prodigy.net>
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de> <20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se> <004401c014fc$a8548780$0101a8c0@iquest.net> <20000902173900P.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39B28EDD.15C85042@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39ba9a21.153380480@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

>But they used a linear DAC ladder and switching, and fed it into a tube buffer
>amp.
>That what you're looking for ???

No, my project is  full tube, not only an output buffer.


-Michael Buchstaller



From buchi at takeonetech.de  Mon Sep  4 14:49:32 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:49:32 GMT
Subject: SPDIF or AES/Ebu interface
In-Reply-To: <20000902173900P.cfmd@swipnet.se>
References: <39b27acd.90580376@mail.cybernet-ag.de> <20000902145358F.cfmd@swipnet.se> <004401c014fc$a8548780$0101a8c0@iquest.net> <20000902173900P.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39bb9a5a.153436906@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

>> I don't see what gains you would get from having a tube dac.

it?s just for fun !

>However, it would be fashinating to learn if someone where able to do a full-
>tube DAC, it's characteristics, it's schematics etc. It does not sound like
>a big commercial hit thought.

for sure not. One triode as switch and one as cathode follower makes one tube per bit.
24 bits in stereo accounts to 48 tubes; and some more for the P/S and output amp.
Surely not cheap. I did have problems in finding 50 equal sockets and tubes for it.


-Michael Buchstaller



From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 14:55:37 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:55:37 +0100
Subject: MM5837?
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C0E@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <003701c0166f$6da6c200$441e883e@default>

>anybody confirm the use of shift regs in later moogs?

The little Rogue had one in it. Although there were two types of 8pin
DIL noise source around made by NatSemi. The later one had a longer
delay... and presumabley sounded better.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan







From robh at biols.susx.ac.uk  Mon Sep  4 17:05:17 2000
From: robh at biols.susx.ac.uk (Rob Hukin)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:05:17 +0100
Subject: FS: PAIA midi2cv8 kits
Message-ID: <l03130302b5d96a49b6fa@[139.184.162.160]>

2 available (neither built), 50 ukp each ono...?

rob.





From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Sep  4 18:21:59 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:21:59 -0400
Subject: MM5837?
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C0E@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <39B3CC27.81C4440B@prodigy.net>

The MM5837 was intended for uses like room equalization, where the PSEUDO
random nature is a feature, not a bug.

Synth manufacturers had a tough time getting consistant noise sources... one day
a tech
can do 20 units... next day he struggles to get 2....

So they (mis) use the MM5837... then when musicians get them, they are furious
(for the
most part)... I remember my Prophet V... i was B!TCHING "$3,500 for a g at dd@m
synth and they put in a noise source that goes click....click....click....?"  Oh
great. So I tried to make an analog retrofit, but it was not compatible with the
"poly-mod" noise section because of level differences. So I did the longer shift
register unit, and lived happily ever after... until i foolishly sold the
synth...

Most people agree the MM5837 svcks!  Even more than agree on BBD's....

H^)   harry

"Goddard, Duncan" wrote:

> >>>Wasn't that the chip used in the MemoryMoog? If it was then
> > I'd recommend avoiding it at all costs for audio rate noise!
> > You can easily hear the pattern (they didn't call it psudeo
> > for nothing!)<<<
> >
> I always thought the white noise in the rogue sounded pants, and wondered
> why it had this "digital" feel about it. anybody confirm the use of shift
> regs in later moogs?
>
> d.
>
> ***************************************************************************
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>
> The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
> of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
> be privileged.  If you are not the addressee of this e-mail you may
> not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it
> in any form whatsoever.
> If you have received this e-mail in error, please e-mail the sender
> by replying to this message.
>
> MTV Networks Europe
> *****************************************************************************




From grichter at execpc.com  Mon Sep  4 18:33:39 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:33:39 -0500
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
Message-ID: <200009041634.e84GYJx85019@pop0.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

Since you have a microprocessor involved, you could make a device that is 
controllable between randomness (noise) and repetition (pitched).
Electronotes had the pseudo random tone wheel waveform animator,
which used a short shift register as a "capture wheel" to skim off short
sections of the random noise and make them pitched.

Bernie gives a couple of references from the Journal of the Audio
Engineering Society. R. Burhans "Pseudo Noise Timbre Generators" Volume 20
No. 3 page 3 (April 1972) and R. Burhans "Harmonic structure of PN
sequences" (JAES Vol. 20).

Since the microprocessor could have many internal shift registers, you could
even set up multiples for chords and poly tones. The basic idea is to use a
short (8 bit) shift register as a capture wheel and keep inputting a new bit
from the long PSR sequence on some probability basis. The capture wheel will
appear to have a fixed pitch set by the recycle time, but the timbre will
continually morph as the the random bits roll through.

----------
>From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
>To: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
>Cc: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>, 8brain at spiritone.com,
synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
>Date: Sun, Sep 3, 2000, 3:31 PM
>

>     Here I am listening to my chugga chugga (I found it, didn't even have
> to do so by
> inspection, I just listened to it, it is a whole lot worse than I
> remember), and a good
> solution to this problem is staring me right in the face.
>
>     If you would all please turn to page 147 in the good book
> (Digikey-July-Sept 2000),
> you will notice that the XC9536-15PC44C is only $3.30 in unit quantities.
> It would be
> entirely posible to put a 32 bit shift reg and XOR feedback into one of
> these little
> suckers.  I just have to dig up the article I have stashed somewhere that
> shows which
> cells to tap.  About a half hour at Xilinx Foundation, and I should have a
> hex file.
> (Although, I will not be back at work until this Wedensday).  I would post
> the hex file
> and schematic (and encourage others to post it on their site).
>
>     Anybody interested?
>
>     -Jim
>
> Harry Bissell wrote:
>
>> Likewise I have a schematic for one that I adapted from Popular
> Electronics.... and
>> used
>> in the Prophet V to replace the... (gawdawful) ... chugga chugga unit ! will
send
>> scan to
>> any who requests...
>>
>> H^) harry
>>
>> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>>
>> > From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
>> > Subject: Re: MM5837?
>> > Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:22:18 -0700
>> >
>> > >     All I can say is, good luck.  In one of my home made synths, I am
pretty
>> > > sure I have one of these things.  You might be able to talk me out of it
as a
>> > > last resort (I personally don't really care much for it, you can hear it
>> > > repeat, if you listen really carefully).  These went out of production a
long
>> > > time ago.  Keep me posted if you can't find one.
>> > >
>> > >     -Jim
>> > >
>> > > Romeo Fahl wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hello,
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm looking for an MM5837 ("Chugga Chugga") pseudo-random noise IC to
do
>> > > > some experimenting with.  Does anyone have a spare or know of a source
for
>> > > > one?
>> >
>> > Do you really require the MM5837? It is not too complex to cook up a noise
>> > source out of standard CMOS or TTL. If you go to the archives (Oh, I never
>> > thougth I would refer to them!) you will find a thread on the subject, I
recall
>> > being part of it, I even posted a ASCII schematic in there...
>> >
>> > If you really want a a 17 stage noise source it should not be too difficult
to
>> > make an equalent schematic, but a longer shifter is better. A 4006, a XOR
gate
>> > of choice and some clock generator (two of the XOR gates could be used for
>> > that) and you have an equalent.
>> >
>> > The MM5837 is a 17 bit shift register with feedback at the 14th tap. The
MM5837
>> > also has an internal oscillator which changes frequency with the supply
power
>> > (obviously!). Getting something equalent should not be too hard. Actually,
>> > a 17-tap shift register is a bit too short... it will beat too obviously.
>> >
>> > Anyway for some more info, check out:
>> > http://www.vego.nl/8/18/8_18.htm
>> > http://www.io.com/~ritter/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Magnus
>
> --
>  -Jim
> ------------------------------------------------
> * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> *-----------------------------------------------
> *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> * You didn't pay enough!
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> 



From chris at scp.de  Mon Sep  4 19:07:42 2000
From: chris at scp.de (Christian Hofmann)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:07:42 +0200
Subject: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <39B3CC27.81C4440B@prodigy.net>
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C0E@LON-MAIL07> <39B3CC27.81C4440B@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <200009041707.TAA17061@dilbert.scp.de>

On Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:21:59 -0400
Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net> wrote:

> Most people agree the MM5837 svcks!  Even more than agree on BBD's....

That makes me wonder - has anybody ever used BBDs as a noise source...? 
Or 741s? ;-)

Or would there be excessive unwanted, um, noise (like e.g. hum)?

Christian



From CasioRZ1 at aol.com  Mon Sep  4 20:12:10 2000
From: CasioRZ1 at aol.com (CasioRZ1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 14:12:10 EDT
Subject: Fun broken stuff, and perhaps, a favor?
Message-ID: <e.1db2a68.26e53ffa@aol.com>

Hey all,

I'm cleaning up and wanna get rid of the following... outa my house into 
yours!  It's all free, but you have to pay for shipping and put up w/how long 
it might take me to ship ;-)

Casio CZ-101.  Power supply problem, not working, complete, partially 
disassembled 

Emu Drumulator.  Glancing at the innards reveals that all ROMs are gone, 
probably more.  Good shape otherwise, good soure of parts.

Yamaha strap-on midi controller... the turquoise and black one.  I can't 
remember the model number right now. This I've never even plugged in... it 
was given to me w/the promise that it didn't work, and I've never bothered 
w/it (too busy).  It's heavy, so shipping on it is gonna be kind of expensive.

And, the favor... if someone out there's got a ROM burner and some spare 
2716s, I could really use yer help!

Thanks,

Derek









From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Sep  4 20:29:32 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:29:32 +0200
Subject: one/F noise source ckt?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000903235549.008f7db0@popa.melbpc.org.au>
References: <1.5.4.32.20000903235549.008f7db0@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <20000904202932R.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Paul Perry <pfperry at melbpc.org.au>
Subject: Re: one/F noise source ckt?
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 09:55:49 +1000

> At 08:55 PM 3/09/00 +0200, Magnus Danielson wrote:
> 
> >> Didn't Bob Moog have some clever way of making a -3dB filter
> >> for the pink noise source in the MiniMoog?
> 
> >Well, I just checked the MiniMoog Service Manual and it is not something very
> >clever, he just filters it. It is a fairly simple filter. It falls into one of
> >those "good enougth" approximations.
> >
> Actually the Mini Moog noise situation is a little more subtle than that.
> By an amazing coincidence, I just posted this to AH:
> 
> http://www.audities.org/MiniA/bill_hemsath.htm
> 
> which is the address of a rave by one of the MM designers, a teriffic read!

Ah... look in the end of the Model C description to find the relevant text.
I started to read that when it surfaced, but I was to tired to get all the way
to Model C.

Now, this is not very obvious from the noise curcuit schematics, it is a
property of a somewhat larger scope.

One learn every day, don't you!

Cheers,
Magnus




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Sep  4 20:49:21 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 14:49:21 -0400
Subject: MM5837?
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C0E@LON-MAIL07> <39B3CC27.81C4440B@prodigy.net> <200009041707.TAA17061@dilbert.scp.de>
Message-ID: <39B3EEB0.E5F2F376@prodigy.net>

Actually... EVERY BBD is used as a noise source....    >;^)

seriously....  BBD would probably nnot make a really good noise source, the
clock
noise would give a really strong peak.

The 741, contrary to commonly held belief... is not a very good noise source
either.

Best bets are still zener diode or avalanched semiconductor junction... or
the digital pseudorandom generators.

H^)

Christian Hofmann wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:21:59 -0400
> Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> > Most people agree the MM5837 svcks!  Even more than agree on BBD's....
>
> That makes me wonder - has anybody ever used BBDs as a noise source...?
> Or 741s? ;-)
>
> Or would there be excessive unwanted, um, noise (like e.g. hum)?
>
> Christian




From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 21:40:52 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 20:40:52 +0100
Subject: MM5837?
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C0E@LON-MAIL07> <39B3CC27.81C4440B@prodigy.net> <200009041707.TAA17061@dilbert.scp.de>
Message-ID: <000f01c01744$233d2a80$af1f883e@default>

>That makes me wonder - has anybody ever used BBDs as a noise source...?
Or 741s?

The Practical Electronics (UK) Band-box, marketed by Clef, used one half
of a 1458 to produce the hiss needed for the cymbals and snare. The
op-amps gain was reduced severely at low frequencies to reduce hum pick
up... so it wasn't very good at low frequency rumbles at all. Fine for
the drum machine though.... real cheesy it was.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From colin.fraser at calanais.com  Mon Sep  4 21:42:38 2000
From: colin.fraser at calanais.com (Fraser, Colin J)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 20:42:38 +0100 
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
Message-ID: <CA369439A6D0314A919139DA6851A312975A@CATSPG2K01.scottishpower.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Allgood [mailto:oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk]
> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 1:31 PM
> To: Synth DIY
> Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
> 
> The new Maplin catalogue came through my letter box this morning. This
> really is bad news, the once great supplier of electronic stuff of all
> sorts, actually has a catalogue so small it fits through my 
> tiny letter
> box. The semiconductor section is a hoot. As an example; it 
> has only two
> analogue switches for sale. Maplin seem to be more interested 
> in selling
> the computer hardware side of things, and most of those have no price
> attached.

Everything I have tried to buy from Maplin in the last few months has either
been on back order, or more often discontinued.
I have been buying the vast majority of the parts I use there since I first
picked up a soldering iron.
Now it has come to the point where I won't even waste my time trying.

It's truly sad to see them reduced to being a second rate Dixons wannabee,
in the name of profitability.
I just hope their demise doesn't indicate a general down turn in electronics
as a hobby - if Farnell, Rapid etc. start introducing large minimum order
quantities, it could get very hard for the home constructor.

Colin f



From danas at egosys.com  Mon Sep  4 22:38:54 2000
From: danas at egosys.com (Dana Scott)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:38:54 -0400
Subject: MM5837?
Message-ID: <002201c016b0$28509a00$c3fd6ed1@egosys.smtp.ix.netcom.com>

I'm trying to remember what we did at ARP. I seem to remember a
product where we took 2 pseudo-random noise gen chips and just summed
them together into an op-amp.
Anyone got their ARP schematic collection handy? I'm away from home at
the moment.
-Dana Scott



>The MM5837 was intended for uses like room equalization, where the
PSEUDO
>random nature is a feature, not a bug.
>
>Synth manufacturers had a tough time getting consistant noise
sources... one day
>a tech
>can do 20 units... next day he struggles to get 2....





From paul.maddox at ndirect.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 23:48:13 2000
From: paul.maddox at ndirect.co.uk (Paul Maddox)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:48:13 +0100
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
References: <001601c0166e$9317d480$441e883e@default>
Message-ID: <008801c016b9$d48ac940$0200a8c0@paul>

Tony,

> The new Maplin catalogue came through my letter box this morning.

PAH! dont swear on this list tony!

>
> CPC on the other hand is a very good company, if only you could get on
> to their website or even possibly get hold of a catalogue. Account
> holders only I'm afraid. Why? Heaven knows.
>

Rapid???
Good supplier, cheap parts though not much selection.
Give em a call for a catalogue, Oh if you're a company you get it free
else it costs you ?3.60 odd.. 01206 751166

> RS gave me a laugh last week. I ordered some stuff on line, only to be
> told by phone the next day that the parts should be delivered in April.
> April... I ask you... I have to presume that it is April next year, as
> opposed to April 2002.

hehe, farnell seema  little more reliable than RS just at the moment.

Paul Maddox (planning on placeing farnell order in next day or so)
_________________________________________________________
Wavesynth webpage;-
   Http://www.wavesynth.com

Modulus website;-
   Http://www.wavesynth.com/modulus/
_________________________________________________________





From thescum at surfree.com  Tue Sep  5 00:28:25 2000
From: thescum at surfree.com (Byron G. Jacquot)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:28:25 -0400
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000904222825.00998134@smtp.surfree.com>

>Speaking of which, has anyone tried to buy a rackmount line mixer lately?
>Ugh.. Its definitely not pretty, and choices are really limited.


Have you looked into the Speck, or Toft Intermix?

There are certainly some nice line mixers out there!

(Or did you mean nice and affordable, too?)

Byron Jacquot




From sasami at blaze.net.au  Tue Sep  5 01:01:22 2000
From: sasami at blaze.net.au (Ken Stone)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 09:01:22 +1000
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
References: <CA369439A6D0314A919139DA6851A312975A@CATSPG2K01.scottishpower.com>
Message-ID: <39B429C2.4ADC4DAD@blaze.net.au>

> I just hope their demise doesn't indicate a general down turn in electronics
> as a hobby - 

It's been that way in Australia for a while. We have three main choices,
all of them "supermarket chains", all of them with the same pathetic
range of basic parts. No doubt there are some serious industrial
suppliers, but the hobby market is pretty much restricted to these
inadequate shops. There are a few "lone wolf" hobby suppliers, but they
are invariably as bad if not worse.

Ken


"Fraser, Colin J" wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tony Allgood [mailto:oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk]
> > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 1:31 PM
> > To: Synth DIY
> > Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
> >
> > The new Maplin catalogue came through my letter box this morning. This
> > really is bad news, the once great supplier of electronic stuff of all
> > sorts, actually has a catalogue so small it fits through my
> > tiny letter
> > box. The semiconductor section is a hoot. As an example; it
> > has only two
> > analogue switches for sale. Maplin seem to be more interested
> > in selling
> > the computer hardware side of things, and most of those have no price
> > attached.
> 
> Everything I have tried to buy from Maplin in the last few months has either
> been on back order, or more often discontinued.
> I have been buying the vast majority of the parts I use there since I first
> picked up a soldering iron.
> Now it has come to the point where I won't even waste my time trying.
> 
> It's truly sad to see them reduced to being a second rate Dixons wannabee,
> in the name of profitability.
> I just hope their demise doesn't indicate a general down turn in electronics
> as a hobby - if Farnell, Rapid etc. start introducing large minimum order
> quantities, it could get very hard for the home constructor.
> 
> Colin f

-- 
_____________________________________________________________

                Ken Stone  sasami at blaze.net.au
                   ** Catgirl Paradise **
               <http://www.anime.net/~kens/>
                    ** Modular Synth **
            <http://kato.sai.com.au/catgirl/synth/>
         ** Australian Miniature Horses and ponies **
             <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>
_____________________________________________________________



From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Tue Sep  5 01:09:02 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:09:02 -0700
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
References: <001601c0166e$9317d480$441e883e@default>
Message-ID: <002e01c016c5$1f9b1740$0101a8c0@iquest.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Allgood <oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk>
To: Synth DIY <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 5:30 AM
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?


SNIP

> Rather different topic, sort of. Behringer have not sent a single mixer
> to the UK since January. Which means if you wanted to buy a MX2442A,
> which I did, well, you can't get one. They misread the market place and
> just didn't make enough. In fact, many of Behringer's products seem to
> have gone into the very rare category. UK dealers are not impressed...
> and nor was I. Spares are also a problem too I was told. It generally
> appears that the larger analogue mixers are not in fashion at the moment
> so I was told on umpteen occasions. 'Don't you want a digital mixer?' No
> I don't... call me a luddite if you want.
>
> Thank heavens for a Yamaha GF24-12. Nice desk, very good price.
>

I guess when digital mixers get cheaper it would be worth a go, but as of
right now I just do not have much respect for them and their high prices. I
guess too many ppl are just multitracking or buying Mackie Mixers.. I still
do not see the allure of a Mackie. If I am going to spend that much money, I
would personally spend a little more and get a Spirit or some other
*interesting* board. IMHO Mackies, Behringers, etc all sound about the same
except for the distortion from the channel gain (I like board distortion,
and the Mackie just doesnt seem to do it very well) and the channel eq
(which I dont use mostly).

Speaking of which, has anyone tried to buy a rackmount line mixer lately?
Ugh.. Its definitely not pretty, and choices are really limited.

Rob






From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Sep  5 01:22:08 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:22:08 -0400
Subject: MM5837?
References: <002201c016b0$28509a00$c3fd6ed1@egosys.smtp.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <39B42EA0.911DB79D@prodigy.net>

This would probably work fine. The repeat rate is from 1.1 to 2.4 seconds,
there is
a large variation in clock frequency...  Sort of if you take two chips at
RANDOM...

Features:
* Uniform (ly bad) noise quality
* Uniform noise amplitude (yeah, a "1" or a "0")
* Eliminates Noise Preamps (true...)
* Self contained Oscillator (true)
* Single component insertion (true... you will just WISH you had inserted
more....)

BTW:  What features do they usually "claim" for BBD chips ?   ;^)
(teehee!)

OTOH... the MM5837 is long long dead.

H^)  harry

Dana Scott wrote:

> I'm trying to remember what we did at ARP. I seem to remember a
> product where we took 2 pseudo-random noise gen chips and just summed
> them together into an op-amp.
> Anyone got their ARP schematic collection handy? I'm away from home at
> the moment.
> -Dana Scott
>
> >The MM5837 was intended for uses like room equalization, where the
> PSEUDO
> >random nature is a feature, not a bug.
> >
> >Synth manufacturers had a tough time getting consistant noise
> sources... one day
> >a tech
> >can do 20 units... next day he struggles to get 2....




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Sep  5 01:30:51 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:30:51 -0400
Subject: Mixers: was Suppliers eh? 
References: <001601c0166e$9317d480$441e883e@default> <002e01c016c5$1f9b1740$0101a8c0@iquest.net>
Message-ID: <39B430AB.42B88A1D@prodigy.net>

I'll jump in here.

I have the Mackie 1202 (old version).  I used a Tascam "Stage" mixer before
that...
and the Venerable Tapco/EV (forget version).

The Mackie is a GREAT little mixer. I run my whole band through it live, Guitar
(via Sans amp) Bass (via Sans amp) Two Vocals, Digita! Drums (2x Alesis D4), and
whatever else
Theremin, ProOne....  and it has NEVER farted !  It has headroom from HELL.  If
you WANT to overdrive it... it will not make you happy!

I agree that the EQ is kind of useless and I do not use it except in
emergencies. But I don't
think most of the look alike mixers equal it in performance. I tried the Spirit
line and didn't like/buy it...  No accounting for taste.

Hey... has anyone ever heard me say I liked something before ? Is this a first
???

H^)  harry

Rob wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tony Allgood <oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: Synth DIY <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 5:30 AM
> Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
>
> SNIP
>
> > Rather different topic, sort of. Behringer have not sent a single mixer
> > to the UK since January. Which means if you wanted to buy a MX2442A,
> > which I did, well, you can't get one. They misread the market place and
> > just didn't make enough. In fact, many of Behringer's products seem to
> > have gone into the very rare category. UK dealers are not impressed...
> > and nor was I. Spares are also a problem too I was told. It generally
> > appears that the larger analogue mixers are not in fashion at the moment
> > so I was told on umpteen occasions. 'Don't you want a digital mixer?' No
> > I don't... call me a luddite if you want.
> >
> > Thank heavens for a Yamaha GF24-12. Nice desk, very good price.
> >
>
> I guess when digital mixers get cheaper it would be worth a go, but as of
> right now I just do not have much respect for them and their high prices. I
> guess too many ppl are just multitracking or buying Mackie Mixers.. I still
> do not see the allure of a Mackie. If I am going to spend that much money, I
> would personally spend a little more and get a Spirit or some other
> *interesting* board. IMHO Mackies, Behringers, etc all sound about the same
> except for the distortion from the channel gain (I like board distortion,
> and the Mackie just doesnt seem to do it very well) and the channel eq
> (which I dont use mostly).
>
> Speaking of which, has anyone tried to buy a rackmount line mixer lately?
> Ugh.. Its definitely not pretty, and choices are really limited.
>
> Rob




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Tue Sep  5 07:00:35 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:00:35 -0700
Subject: MM5837?
References: <002201c016b0$28509a00$c3fd6ed1@egosys.smtp.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c016f6$3f81a200$0200a8c0@pc102>

I was going to say something about this but I can't remember where
I saw it. Seems like it was a mix of 5837 and tranny junction. It looked
like a good idea but I haven't had a chance to try it. I thought I might try
to use Scotts noise pic or the PBC random function and build my own
version. 

Tom


> I'm trying to remember what we did at ARP. I seem to remember a
> product where we took 2 pseudo-random noise gen chips and just summed
> them together into an op-amp.
> Anyone got their ARP schematic collection handy? I'm away from home at
> the moment.
> -Dana Scott
> 
> 
> 
> >The MM5837 was intended for uses like room equalization, where the
> PSEUDO
> >random nature is a feature, not a bug.
> >
> >Synth manufacturers had a tough time getting consistant noise
> sources... one day
> >a tech
> >can do 20 units... next day he struggles to get 2....
> 
> 




From neil.johnson at camcon.co.uk  Tue Sep  5 09:41:55 2000
From: neil.johnson at camcon.co.uk (neil.johnson at camcon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:41:55 +0100
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
Message-ID: <80256951.002A5B94.00@CambridgeUk-G01.camcon.co.uk>



Tony Allgood wrote:

> The new Maplin catalogue came through my letter box this morning. This
> really is bad news, the once great supplier of electronic stuff of all
> sorts, actually has a catalogue so small it fits through my tiny letter
> box. The semiconductor section is a hoot. As an example; it has only two
> analogue switches for sale. Maplin seem to be more interested in selling
> the computer hardware side of things, and most of those have no price
> attached.

Oh dear.  Fads and fashion.  Are we back to days of a catalogue with a
separate price list?  Meanwhile, check out the new multi-part Farnell
catalogue - they _do_ sell to Mr. Private-Buyer, and they have prices on
the page.  And, the first catalogue has a freebie pack of sticky things.

> CPC on the other hand is a very good company, if only you could get on
> to their website or even possibly get hold of a catalogue. Account
> holders only I'm afraid. Why? Heaven knows.

Agreed, CPC are a very useful company.  They do all sorts of weird and
wonderful things, spares for hi-fi's etc.  Once bought a selection of
magnetrons for some experimenting, as well as the HV caps and 12kV
diodes too.  Interesting times.  And yes, they only sell to trade.

> RS gave me a laugh last week. I ordered some stuff on line, only to be
> told by phone the next day that the parts should be delivered in April.
> April... I ask you... I have to presume that it is April next year, as
> opposed to April 2002.

What were you ordering?  I know that surface mount is a washout at the
moment - I could well believe 12 to 18-month lead times on certain
components (tantalums especially so).  Its all these people who buy
mobile phones.

> Rather different topic, sort of. Behringer have not sent a single mixer
> to the UK since January. Which means if you wanted to buy a MX2442A,
> which I did, well, you can't get one. They misread the market place and
> just didn't make enough. In fact, many of Behringer's products seem to
> have gone into the very rare category. UK dealers are not impressed...
> and nor was I. Spares are also a problem too I was told. It generally
> appears that the larger analogue mixers are not in fashion at the moment
> so I was told on umpteen occasions. 'Don't you want a digital mixer?' No
> I don't... call me a luddite if you want.

Welcome to Luddites Anonymous (I'm getting a dizzy head just typing this
email...)

Upside: lots of yucky olde worlde analogue horribly noisy
more-knobs-than-you've-had-hot-dinners-my-son mixers on the 2nd hand
market.

> Thank heavens for a Yamaha GF24-12. Nice desk, very good price.

Neil
--
=======================================================
Neil Johnson ::::: MSc CEng MIEE | Life is the fiddly,
W.W.W: http://www.njohnson.co.uk | squelchy bit between
Email: me at njohnson.co.uk         | birth and death.
=======================================================





From music.maker at gte.net  Tue Sep  5 11:03:48 2000
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 11:03:48
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
Message-ID: <200009051759.MAA20569790@smtppop3.gte.net>

"Trevor Page" <trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>For those of us in the UK, ESR electronics is a good company. Titchy range
>of electronic components but worth a look. I like the fact that they
>dispatch your order very promptly and you often get them the next day via
>normal post. P+P is a quid something, no minimum order value.  They normally
>have a page advertising part of their range in EPE mag. Very helpful over
>the phone.

I personally welcome any and all links and hints to small distributors.
My personal quest is (still) the AD654 and the LM (or NE) 566.  Lots
of places seem to list it, but don't stock.

-- Scott Gravenhorst : On The Edge, but the Edge of What?
-- Linux Rex, Linux Vobiscum  |  RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: www.teklab.com/~chordman
-- NonFatMan: members.xoom.com/_XMCM/chordman/index.html
-- The 21st century does NOT start in the year 2000!!!





From nss at hevanet.com  Tue Sep  5 15:46:00 2000
From: nss at hevanet.com (nss at hevanet.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 06:46:00 -0700
Subject: Suppliers eh?   MCM
References: <80256951.002A5B94.00@CambridgeUk-G01.camcon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39B4F918.1A9E@hevanet.com>

I'll just mention them because I don't remember seeing a reference to
them on the list, MCM electronics in the us have a good selection of
some parts that supprised me. I looked all over trying to find 2sc1583's
and did not even think to look in my mcm cat, but I gave it a shot and
there they were! They are owned by the same conpany as Newark, but give
much, much, much better service. I guess it is because they are into
repair parts mostly that they have some of the older stuff... Website
stank last time I tried it althogh
http://www.mcmelectronics.com
-AL Fisher




From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Sep  5 16:17:06 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:17:06 +0100
Subject: Oakley Stuff
Message-ID: <001401c01744$2b5cf060$af1f883e@default>

Hi all,

Mini Moog inspired VCO, AD/AR envelope generator and Basic VCA boards
now in and shipping. Full schematics and details at:

www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm

Cheers,

Tony Allgood
Penrith, Cumbria, England




From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Tue Sep  5 16:29:03 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:29:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <39B2B53F.B02AA3F0@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009051026420.14382-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, patchell wrote:

>     If you would all please turn to page 147 in the good book
> (Digikey-July-Sept 2000), you will notice that the XC9536-15PC44C is
> only $3.30 in unit quantities.  It would be entirely posible to put a
> 32 bit shift reg and XOR feedback into one of these little suckers.  
> I just have to dig up the article I have stashed somewhere that shows
> which cells to tap.  About a half hour at Xilinx Foundation, and I
> should have a hex file. (Although, I will not be back at work until
> this Wedensday).  I would post the hex file and schematic (and
> encourage others to post it on their site).

  Actually, I would just program something like an 8-pin PIC(12C508A) to
act as a 31-bit LFSR at audio rate.  In fact, I did this a few years ago.
I'll dig up the .asm file and URL it this week.

Crow

/**/




From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Tue Sep  5 17:00:20 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:00:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <p04330104b5d8ef7d0a7a@[63.28.152.24]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009051058100.14382-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


  Found my PICcode for 31-bit audio noise LFSR.  Could easily add more
registers for 40 bits and beyond...

  http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508.asm

Crow

/**/




From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Tue Sep  5 17:13:27 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:13:27 +0000
Subject: Q about SG51P
Message-ID: <39B50D95.DB704080@wanadoo.fr>

Hi folks,

I have a question regarding the DIL Xtal oscillators
of the SG51P serie : according to the data sheet,
pin 1 is Output Enable and is active high.
But it doesn't say anything about what happens
when that pin is low... Does the output switch
to high impedance, or what ?

I'm actually designing a digital system with 2
clocks (12.288 MHz and 11.2896 MHz for
48 KHz & 44.1 KHz) and would like to switch
between clocks with a single selection bit, and
am wondering if I can simply connect both
outputs together, hoping that one is on high
impedance while the other is active, or if I need
to work on some more sophisticated multiplexing
machinery...

Thanks.

jbv






From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Tue Sep  5 17:47:58 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:47:58 -0700 
Subject: elp
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A22@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

Ah, now THAT brings back memories! When I was just a lad of 14 or so, I wandered
into an electronics shop that also sold stereo gear. They had this nifty quad
setup with tower speakers. Very nice. The LP playing was Brain Salad Surgery. I
was drawn to that music like a moth to a light. Stood there and listened to the
whole thing. I was changed forever. Went home and got rid of my Barry White
albums (man, thats hard to admit), and replaced them with ELP, Pink Floyd,
Walter Carlos, etc. 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com




From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Tue Sep  5 17:55:54 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:55:54 -0700 
Subject: Walsh generator
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A23@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

To all and sundry,

This was a most productive weekend. I got my Xlinx development system up and
running, and did my first design. I now have a Walsh generator programmed into a
Xilinx CPLD. Takes a clock in and produces 31 Walsh function outputs, all in a
44-pin PLCC. The only problem so far is the pinout is all jumbled up. I haven't
figured out how to tell the tool how to assign pins. Right now it pickes them. I
can lock the pins, so future compiles will use the same pinout. 

Anyone interested in aquiring one should contact me at timr at earthling.net.

Ciao

Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Tue Sep  5 18:26:47 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:26:47 -0700 
Subject: Studiomaster Instructions
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A08@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

These are also known as Insert Jacks- you can buy the cable as a stereo Y
cable that splits to 2 mono plugs.
			------->send
--send/receive-->/
			\------>receive

-Rory McDonald

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Allgood [mailto:oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 6:57 AM
To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: Re: Studiomaster Instructions


>There are sockets that are marked "Send/Return"

Not totally sure, but I would bet they are like many other desks and
have to use a TRS/stereo jack plug. The tip of the plug is the send and
the ring is the return in Yamaha desks... but it can be the other way
around, eg. in a Soundcraft.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan





From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Tue Sep  5 18:59:29 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:59:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
In-Reply-To: <000901c01772$ed55aee0$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009051256190.14382-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, tomg wrote:

> I had to look to be sure...but I think the code could be
> easily altered to provide a real time control... That 
> might be nice.

  Oh yes, a bunch of things could be done to it.  I just wanted something
I could shoehorn into a Prophet-5 using a tiny little daughterboard a few
years back, thus the code.  Things like gating the noise on/off and
changing the shift rate are pretty trivial, although I do want to keep the
'taps' loop time small.

Crow

/**/




From mclilith at ezwv.com  Tue Sep  5 19:05:11 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 13:05:11 -0400
Subject: OT: Ensoniq Mirage RIY
Message-ID: <4.1.20000905123657.0093f5e0@mail.ezwv.com>

Hello,

I know this list is about designing your own gear, but perhaps someone here
could help me with a "Repair-It-Yourself" project?

I personally have an Ensoniq Mirage keyboard that won't play any sounds,
but the unit does boot up (very slowly), and manages to transmit MIDI data
out to other devices when keys are pressed, or the internal sequencer is
started. All the panel controls seem to be functioning. Only the synthesis
engine seems to be dead. 

Several years ago, I worked at a music store as an authorized Ensoniq
repair person. However, the service literature at that time was basically a
block diagram with some notes that recommended things like replacing large
assemblies to cure minor problems. (Such as replacing the whole mainboard,
instead of changing a single socketed chip.) At that time, there were no
actual schematics being released to anyone outside of Ensoniq. 

Recently, I contacted Ensoniq about getting schematics for this old model,
and they said to "contact my local dealer" and that the schematics were
available. (The local dealer is my old employer.) The local dealer swears
that NOTHING is available for the Mirage. The Ensoniq people INSIST that
actual schematics, and not merely simple block diagrams, are available
through my local dealer.

The trouble is, I'm getting absolutely no cooperation from the local
dealer. (Remember, I used to work for these people long ago, and I can
definitely tell that they are not going to be of any further assistance.)

If anyone has any technical information for these keyboards, please contact
me via private email. (I assume that the list wouldn't be appropriate for
this subject.)

Thank you,
Glen 



From trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Sep  5 19:08:33 2000
From: trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk (Trevor Page)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 18:08:33 +0100
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
References: <001601c0166e$9317d480$441e883e@default>
Message-ID: <001d01c0175c$3cf9ae40$8c22883e@trevspc>

Hi all,

For those of us in the UK, ESR electronics is a good company. Titchy range
of electronic components but worth a look. I like the fact that they
dispatch your order very promptly and you often get them the next day via
normal post. P+P is a quid something, no minimum order value.  They normally
have a page advertising part of their range in EPE mag. Very helpful over
the phone.

Trev

=========

Trevor Page BEng (Hons)
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Allgood <oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk>
To: Synth DIY <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 1:30 PM
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?


> Hi all,
>
> The new Maplin catalogue came through my letter box this morning. This
> really is bad news, the once great supplier of electronic stuff of all
> sorts, actually has a catalogue so small it fits through my tiny letter
> box. The semiconductor section is a hoot. As an example; it has only two
> analogue switches for sale. Maplin seem to be more interested in selling
> the computer hardware side of things, and most of those have no price
> attached.
>
> CPC on the other hand is a very good company, if only you could get on
> to their website or even possibly get hold of a catalogue. Account
> holders only I'm afraid. Why? Heaven knows.
>
> RS gave me a laugh last week. I ordered some stuff on line, only to be
> told by phone the next day that the parts should be delivered in April.
> April... I ask you... I have to presume that it is April next year, as
> opposed to April 2002.
>
> Rather different topic, sort of. Behringer have not sent a single mixer
> to the UK since January. Which means if you wanted to buy a MX2442A,
> which I did, well, you can't get one. They misread the market place and
> just didn't make enough. In fact, many of Behringer's products seem to
> have gone into the very rare category. UK dealers are not impressed...
> and nor was I. Spares are also a problem too I was told. It generally
> appears that the larger analogue mixers are not in fashion at the moment
> so I was told on umpteen occasions. 'Don't you want a digital mixer?' No
> I don't... call me a luddite if you want.
>
> Thank heavens for a Yamaha GF24-12. Nice desk, very good price.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England
>
> Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
> www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
> My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan
>
>
>
>
>
>




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Tue Sep  5 19:25:37 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:25:37 -0700 
Subject: elp
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A0B@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

For me it was Jethro Tull (still is), ELP, Pink Floyd, Rick Wakeman,
Beatles, Isao Tomita, Walter(wendy)Carlos, and all things classical.
My brother told me recently that he thought that in High School I was
maybe doing some drugs (I wasnt-never have) because I played JOURNEY TO THE
CENTER OF THE EARTH and my Tomita albums over and over. That and the black
light..
I saw ELP and Tull on tour together a few years ago.  I have tickets for
Tull on 
Sept 16th.
Rory McDonald
PS-those joysticks on the Quad receivers were kinda cool too.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Ressel [mailto:Tim_R1 at verifone.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 8:48 AM
To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: RE: elp


Ah, now THAT brings back memories! When I was just a lad of 14 or so, I
wandered
into an electronics shop that also sold stereo gear. They had this nifty
quad
setup with tower speakers. Very nice. The LP playing was Brain Salad
Surgery. I
was drawn to that music like a moth to a light. Stood there and listened to
the
whole thing. I was changed forever. Went home and got rid of my Barry White
albums (man, thats hard to admit), and replaced them with ELP, Pink Floyd,
Walter Carlos, etc. 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com



From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Tue Sep  5 20:28:52 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:28:52 -0700 
Subject: elp
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A27@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

Oh, man! how could I leave Tomita off the list! Bermuda Triangle is my fav. Had
to pay $50 for a import CD, but was worth it!

Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com




From improv at peak.org  Tue Sep  5 20:31:57 2000
From: improv at peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:31:57 -0700
Subject: elp
Message-ID: <v01510101b5daec1171ce@[216.36.14.139]>

At 10:25 AM 9/5/00, Rory McDonald wrote:
>For me it was Jethro Tull (still is), ELP, Pink Floyd, Rick Wakeman,
>Beatles, Isao Tomita, Walter(wendy)Carlos, and all things classical.
>My brother told me recently that he thought that in High School I was
>maybe doing some drugs (I wasnt-never have) because I played JOURNEY TO THE
>CENTER OF THE EARTH and my Tomita albums over and over. That and the black
>light..
>I saw ELP and Tull on tour together a few years ago.  I have tickets for
>Tull on
>Sept 16th.
>Rory McDonald
>PS-those joysticks on the Quad receivers were kinda cool too.
>
For me, the big 3 in high school were Tull, ELP and Gentle Giant! Later, in
college, I discovered jazz, free improv and contemporary classical. Now,
I'm doomed for life...

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv at peak.org
Minus Web Site: http://listen.to/minusmusic
Minus MP3's: http://www.mp3.com/-minus-
____________________________________________





From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep  5 20:42:09 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:42:09 +0100 (BST)
Subject: HD711M
Message-ID: <20000905184209.2633.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey, guys, has anyone got an idea what this 12 pin
metal can chip out of an old organ could be, it's
hitachi and it is numbered HD711M? There are twlve of
them on this circuit board that I have....
Ken


____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 21:28:52 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:28:52 GMT
Subject: HD711M
Message-ID: <F41rt2K6zfSYofhvc0z0000360e@hotmail.com>

A good old octave divider IC perhapps!

BJ


>From: Ken MacBeth <macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk>
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: HD711M
>Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:42:09 +0100 (BST)
>
>Hey, guys, has anyone got an idea what this 12 pin
>metal can chip out of an old organ could be, it's
>hitachi and it is numbered HD711M? There are twlve of
>them on this circuit board that I have....
>Ken
>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
>or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 21:31:12 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:31:12 GMT
Subject: elp
Message-ID: <F76zbc7nGCIvB8CwE9h000079e6@hotmail.com>

Tomita is great, im looking for snowflakes are dancing and
the planets CD's, seams that import is the only whay to get them.

>From: Tim Ressel <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: RE: elp
>Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:28:52 -0700
>
>Oh, man! how could I leave Tomita off the list! Bermuda Triangle is my fav. 
>Had
>to pay $50 for a import CD, but was worth it!
>
>Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
>Hewlett-Packard
>Verifone Division
>3755 Atherton Rd.
>Rocklin, Cal
>916-630-2541
>timothy_ressel at hp.com
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Tue Sep  5 21:45:45 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:45:45 -0700
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009051058100.14382-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <000701c01771$e5a03900$0200a8c0@pc102>


That's the one! Thanks Scott.

Tom


> 
>   Found my PICcode for 31-bit audio noise LFSR.  Could easily add more
> registers for 40 bits and beyond...
> 
>   http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508.asm
> 
> Crow
> 
> /**/
> 




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Tue Sep  5 21:53:11 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:53:11 -0700
Subject: A viable solution[Was]Re: MM5837?
Message-ID: <000901c01772$ed55aee0$0200a8c0@pc102>

I had to look to be sure...but I think the code could be
easily altered to provide a real time control... That 
might be nice.

Tom


> That's the one! Thanks Scott.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> > 
> >   Found my PICcode for 31-bit audio noise LFSR.  Could easily add more
> > registers for 40 bits and beyond...
> > 
> >   http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508.asm
> > 
> > Crow
> > 
> > /**/
> > 
> 




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 21:59:15 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:59:15 GMT
Subject: MM5837? Scott rider and PIC noise!
Message-ID: <F100DVvm24TzmKYTget00007a75@hotmail.com>

Is it this the old crow you sugested?
http://www.aeug.org/~chip/noise508.asm

Nosy Pic's!Anyone tried the code?

Reg
BJ

>Hi all,
>
>Hasn't our very own 'Old Crow' done the very thing in a PIC? Scott?
>Wasn't it pin for pin replacement too?
>
>Regards,
>
>Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England
>
>Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
>www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
>My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Sep  5 22:07:26 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:07:26 +0100
Subject: HD711M
References: <20000905184209.2633.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001901c01774$eb991fe0$0131883e@default>

>... hitachi and it is numbered HD711M? There are twlve of them on this
circuit board that I have....

12 you say... probably divide by two cascades for doing all the notes
from the TOS chip.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From mgranger at greenville.infi.net  Tue Sep  5 22:11:47 2000
From: mgranger at greenville.infi.net (Mike Granger)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:11:47 -0400
Subject: ELP and Rick Wakeman
References: <v01510101b5daec1171ce@[216.36.14.139]>
Message-ID: <39B55382.BF82AA04@greenville.infi.net>

You guys probably won't believe this, but Rick Wakeman played my home made synth
back in 1976 while he was with Yes in Long Beach Ca. I managed to smuggle it
back stage. He was intrigued by it when he spotted it since it had no panel
graphics! He asked if he could play it to see what it sounded like, and I fell
all over myself hooking it up for him. This was before Journey to the Centre of
the Earth was released, and he played sections of that project on MY SYNTHESIZER
blowing me totally away! I'll never forget the experience. He asked me if I was
interested in selling it to him, and I told him I had way too much of myself
invested in it to let it go. I'm glad I kept it!

If anybody is interested in seeing an ancient picture of the synth (and me in
1976), go to :
    http://www.ambrosiaweb.com/ambrosia/fans2.htm
 I don't have that much hair these days, but the synth still works! Also used it
to record the synth parts of the first Ambrosia album in the same time period.
Has anyone ever heard their self titled album? It has just this year been
released on CD for the first time. Thanks for allowing me to think back to
exciting times long ago.

Mike Granger






From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Tue Sep  5 22:23:27 2000
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Schmitz)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:23:27 +0200
Subject: MM5837? Scott rider and PIC noise!
In-Reply-To: <F100DVvm24TzmKYTget00007a75@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000905222327.00a36b80@mailout.uni-bonn.de>

At 19:59 05.09.00 GMT, Bjorn Julin wrote:
>Is it this the old crow you sugested?
>http://www.aeug.org/~chip/noise508.asm
>
>Nosy Pic's!Anyone tried the code?

Jup. 'though actually I've "ported" it to a PIC 16F84. 

Bye,
 Ren?


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159

 




From maakus at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 22:29:23 2000
From: maakus at yahoo.com (Maakus)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:29:23 +0200
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <001601c01778$8c289c80$39c1b5d4@markus>

i wat to build a very very simple synth
or something that make some sort
of sound 
i would be very happy if i could get 
schematics of that
/Maakus
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From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 22:30:23 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 20:30:23 GMT
Subject: MM5837? Scott rider and PIC noise!
Message-ID: <F1918OaP3StdqPatZUL00007914@hotmail.com>



>At 19:59 05.09.00 GMT, Bjorn Julin wrote:
> >Is it this the old crow you sugested?
> >http://www.aeug.org/~chip/noise508.asm
> >
> >Nosy Pic's!Anyone tried the code?
>
>Jup. 'though actually I've "ported" it to a PIC 16F84.
>
>Bye,
>  Ren?

Okidoki, and how does it sound ?
Psssssssssh, or ka chunk, ka chunk, ka chunk??

Adios
BJ

>
>--
>uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
>http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From paul.maddox at ndirect.co.uk  Tue Sep  5 23:58:17 2000
From: paul.maddox at ndirect.co.uk (Paul Maddox)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:58:17 +0100
Subject: Suppliers eh? What are they like?
References: <001601c0166e$9317d480$441e883e@default> <001d01c0175c$3cf9ae40$8c22883e@trevspc>
Message-ID: <006501c01784$66bf2a20$0200a8c0@paul>

Trev,

>
> For those of us in the UK, ESR electronics is a good company. Titchy range
> of electronic components but worth a look. I like the fact that they
> dispatch your order very promptly and you often get them the next day via
> normal post. P+P is a quid something, no minimum order value.  They
normally
> have a page advertising part of their range in EPE mag. Very helpful over
> the phone.
>

got a URL/phone number?

Paul
_________________________________________________________
Wavesynth webpage;-
   Http://www.wavesynth.com

Modulus website;-
   Http://www.wavesynth.com/modulus/
_________________________________________________________





From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Wed Sep  6 00:07:02 2000
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Schmitz)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 00:07:02 +0200
Subject: MM5837? Scott rider and PIC noise!
In-Reply-To: <F1918OaP3StdqPatZUL00007914@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000906000702.00a3b100@mailout.uni-bonn.de>


Pssssssh, due to the fact that its a 32-bit register.

At 20:30 05.09.00 GMT, Bjorn Julin wrote:
>>Jup. 'though actually I've "ported" it to a PIC 16F84.
>Okidoki, and how does it sound ?
>Psssssssssh, or ka chunk, ka chunk, ka chunk??
>
>Adios
>BJ

Bye,
 Ren?


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159

 




From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Wed Sep  6 00:50:35 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:50:35 -0700 
Subject: Poteniometer tapers
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A2E@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

Okay, I'm looking at the Panasonic slide pots in the Digikey catalog. I dig "A"
and "B" tapers. What are "D" and "Y" tapers? They differ slightly from the "A"
taper. What are those other ones for??

Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com



From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Wed Sep  6 00:55:10 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:55:10 -0700 
Subject: MM5837? Scott rider and PIC noise!
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A2F@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

So like, what if you took a 7-stage noise gen, and fed it in as the clock for an
8-stage noise gen? I think this would have a dithering effect. Would it sound
like a 56-stage? or a 15-stage?


Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep  6 01:40:13 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:40:13 -0700
Subject: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A27@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <39B5845D.40AA128E@silcom.com>


    That reminds me.  I have the vinyl disk.  I don't know how many were released
like the one I have but the disk is transparent blue.  Very bizare.

    Also, there is supposed to be a "message" on the disk.  It is encoded in one of
the popular cassette formats that computers used back in those days to save data.
It was not the 300 baud one, can't believe I can't even remember the name of that
one, but one that saved at 1200 baud......OK, I just went and grabed the record.
It is encoded in the TARBEL system.

    Also, according to the jacket liner, the record was recorded in "Pyramid
Sound".  Figures.  Pyramids were all the rage back then.  You could buy one that
would increase the life of your razor.....

    -Jim

Tim Ressel wrote:

> Oh, man! how could I leave Tomita off the list! Bermuda Triangle is my fav. Had
> to pay $50 for a import CD, but was worth it!
>
> Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
> Hewlett-Packard
> Verifone Division
> 3755 Atherton Rd.
> Rocklin, Cal
> 916-630-2541
> timothy_ressel at hp.com

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep  6 01:44:18 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:44:18 -0700
Subject: elp
References: <F76zbc7nGCIvB8CwE9h000079e6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39B58551.6F351336@silcom.com>

    If you are going to get Snowflakes are Dancing, try to get the one in Dolby
Surround.  It sounds kind of crappy when you play it on just a stereo, but if
you have a Dolby Surround decoder, it is pretty neet. (Well, I think so).

Bjorn Julin wrote:

> Tomita is great, im looking for snowflakes are dancing and
> the planets CD's, seams that import is the only whay to get them.
>
> >From: Tim Ressel <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>
> >To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> >Subject: RE: elp
> >Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:28:52 -0700
> >
> >Oh, man! how could I leave Tomita off the list! Bermuda Triangle is my fav.
> >Had
> >to pay $50 for a import CD, but was worth it!
> >
> >Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
> >Hewlett-Packard
> >Verifone Division
> >3755 Atherton Rd.
> >Rocklin, Cal
> >916-630-2541
> >timothy_ressel at hp.com
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From IXQY at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 03:34:24 2000
From: IXQY at aol.com (IXQY at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:34:24 EDT
Subject: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp
Message-ID: <7d.9f9f7bf.26e6f920@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/5/00 6:45:53 PM Central Daylight Time, 
patchell at silcom.com writes:

> That reminds me.  I have the vinyl disk.  I don't know how many were 
released
>  like the one I have but the disk is transparent blue.  Very bizare.
>  
>      Also, there is supposed to be a "message" on the disk.  It is encoded 
in 
> one of
>  the popular cassette formats that computers used back in those days to 
save 
> data.
>  It was not the 300 baud one, can't believe I can't even remember the name 
of 
> that
>  one, but one that saved at 1200 baud......OK, I just went and grabed the 
> record.
>  It is encoded in the TARBEL system.
>  

 Wow, I forgot all about the encoded message!  Does anyone know what the 
message was? My vinyl copy is pink (!) and opaque instead of transparent 
blue. 

 If there are any Tomita fans that don't know about it, there's a Tomita 
mailing list here:

http://tomita.listbot.com/

 Cheers,
 Andrew Sanchez



From 8brain at spiritone.com  Wed Sep  6 04:30:09 2000
From: 8brain at spiritone.com (Romeo Fahl)
Date: 5 Sep 2000 19:30:09 -0700
Subject: Buchla Q: Noisy & Quiet Ground
Message-ID: <000d01c017aa$627e56e0$1ff182d0@8brain>

I've been going over some 200 series Buchla schematics and have noticed that
most modules that use Vactrols have a "Quiet" ground in the audio path and a
"Noisy" ground in the CV section.  I'm guessing this has something to do
with the Vactrols, which are supposed to isolate the control voltages from
the audio path very well....  How are the two grounds related?  Are they
kept separate by low value resistors?  I would assume that they terminate in
the same area of the power supply, but that's probably oversimplified.  If I
were to build a Lo-Pass gate for example, would I get in trouble if I simply
ran both grounds together?  Can one of you experts clarify this for me?

Romeo




From gerryd at ntx-tech.com  Wed Sep  6 05:42:13 2000
From: gerryd at ntx-tech.com (Gerry Dahl)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:42:13 -0700
Subject: Sonic six part
Message-ID: <003601c017b4$71eec740$93a3a318@mn.mediaone.net>

Hi Everyone,
I'm looking for a power amp chip for the sonic six. 

IC part number...  EHD-AP4153-P    Its a nine pin sip package.

Thanks for your help.

Gerry Dahl

Keep On Moogin'


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From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Wed Sep  6 05:48:35 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:48:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MM5837? Scott rider and PIC noise!
In-Reply-To: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A2F@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009052344250.15741-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


  Well, after re-examining the code I wrote in 1997, I realized there is a
bug in the taps routine.  My CMOS Cookbook lists taps for 31-bit LFSR as
18 and 31, when in fact (as Scott G.'s page shows) they should be 28 and
31.  Not sure what length the sequence is using 18 and 31.  The fix is
simple, however: just reload the .asm file page at

http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508.asm

  which has the fix.

Crow

/**/




From grichter at execpc.com  Wed Sep  6 07:03:03 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 00:03:03 -0500
Subject: Buchla Q: Noisy & Quiet Ground
Message-ID: <200009060503.e8653B354741@pop4.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

The Noisy and Quiet grounds ran all the way back to the supplies on separate
wires and were joined at the supply terminals. Quiet ground was mostly used
as the reference for the + terminals of op-amps and carries no significant
current. Anything that switched any significant amount of current connected
to noisy ground so the IR drops wouldn't show up as signals in the audio
path.

Today they are called "Analog (quiet)" and "Digital (noisy)" grounds. They
are usually connected at the input ground terminal of the PC board. That
works fine for the most part.

----------
>From: "Romeo Fahl" <8brain at spiritone.com>
>To: "synthdiy" <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>Subject: Buchla Q: Noisy & Quiet Ground
>Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2000, 9:30 PM
>

> I've been going over some 200 series Buchla schematics and have noticed that
> most modules that use Vactrols have a "Quiet" ground in the audio path and a
> "Noisy" ground in the CV section.  I'm guessing this has something to do
> with the Vactrols, which are supposed to isolate the control voltages from
> the audio path very well....  How are the two grounds related?  Are they
> kept separate by low value resistors?  I would assume that they terminate in
> the same area of the power supply, but that's probably oversimplified.  If I
> were to build a Lo-Pass gate for example, would I get in trouble if I simply
> ran both grounds together?  Can one of you experts clarify this for me?
>
> Romeo
> 



From Mvsik at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 07:07:50 2000
From: Mvsik at aol.com (Mvsik at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 01:07:50 EDT
Subject: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp
Message-ID: <ab.3503cd.26e72b26@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/5/00 6:45:53 PM EST, patchell at silcom.com writes:

<<  like the one I have but the disk is transparent blue.  Very bizare.
 >>
I used to have that one on vinyl, too. I never could get into it much, maybe 
now 20 years later..?
Snowflakes are Dancing, Pictures at Exhibition, were ok, Cosmos and Bolero 
were interesting, but I liked The Planets and the Firebird the best, and all 
these I once had on vinyl  : ).
 The Bermuda triangle was made for "Quadraphonic" was it not?
Tomita likes some "alternative" speaker/ PA setups, as far as I know.



From czech at Micronas.Com  Wed Sep  6 08:48:10 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:48:10 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <200009060648.IAA06288@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::Do you mean mixing analogue and digital noise?  or some
:::way to clock a shiftregister with "squared up" noise?

I mean using the analog noise to influence some bit in
the shift reg chain, e.g. by exor a feedback.
Would also serve to avoid the forbidden state completely.

m.c.




From czech at Micronas.Com  Wed Sep  6 09:34:23 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:34:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: one/F noise source ckt?
Message-ID: <200009060734.JAA06662@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::Doing a true -3 dB/oct filter REALLY IS as hard as fetching half an 
electron!!!

An anlog approximation is not too hard, a passive network
like Art of Electronics will do.


m.c.




From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Sep  6 12:45:03 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:45:03 +0100
Subject: Poteniometer tapers
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A2E@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c017f2$73869c20$6e53883e@default>

>What are "D" and "Y" tapers?

D is log-log law I think. Y I have never heard of. However, some
companies specify their own laws for sliders. Soundcraft has ALPS make
them a special Soundcraft law for its better quality desk faders. ie.
not Sprit. And they do sound somehow more smoother when you fade them
down.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Wed Sep  6 13:52:20 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:52:20 +0100 
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C3C@LON-MAIL07>

>>>That reminds me.  I have the vinyl disk.  I don't know how many were
released
> like the one I have but the disk is transparent blue.  Very bizare.
> 
>     Also, there is supposed to be a "message" on the disk.  It is encoded
> in one of
> the popular cassette formats that computers used back in those days to
> save data.
> It was not the 300 baud one, can't believe I can't even remember the name
> of that
> one, but one that saved at 1200 baud......OK, I just went and grabed the
> record.
> It is encoded in the TARBEL system.
> 
>     Also, according to the jacket liner, the record was recorded in
> "Pyramid
> Sound".  Figures.  Pyramids were all the rage back then.  You could buy
> one that
> would increase the life of your razor.....<<<
> 
> 
I have that one too, on vinyl, tho' to be honest, he'd lost his appeal by
then and appeared to me to be aligning himself with rather too many of those
late 70s fads- there seemed to be a drama-doc about the triangle on tv every
weekend. 
for me, his finest works were the debussy, the mussorgsky (pictures), the
stravinsky (firebird) with the holst and "night on bare mountain" running
along behind. got "pictures" on cd in austria last year but can't find the
stravinsky anywhere. the vinyls are better, though, for two reasons- they're
not surround-encoded so they don't sound all weird on a regular stereo (tho'
my third speaker thing helps slightly)
but most importantly, there's usually a HUGE gear list. I always used to
wonder who the hell "eventide clockworks" were and why no-one else ever
listed their box........
duncan.


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From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Wed Sep  6 13:56:15 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:56:15 +0100 
Subject: Buchla Q: Noisy & Quiet Ground
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C3D@LON-MAIL07>

>>The Noisy and Quiet grounds ran all the way back to the supplies on
separate
> wires and were joined at the supply terminals. Quiet ground was mostly
> used
> as the reference for the + terminals of op-amps and carries no significant
> current. Anything that switched any significant amount of current
> connected
> to noisy ground so the IR drops wouldn't show up as signals in the audio
> path.<<
> 
whole buildings are wired in a similar way to this, particularly radio and
tv broadcasters and facilities houses, and probably most big computer
installations- we call them tech earth and cooking earth, tho' in practice
usually the whole supply will be separate to keep the neutral quiet aswell.

d.


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The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
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From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Wed Sep  6 15:03:48 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:03:48 +0200 
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02725514@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>I have that one too, on vinyl, tho' to be honest, he'd lost his
appeal by
	>then and appeared to me 

I say "The Sea Named Solaris" !

I'm not such a big Tomita fan (and not a big Bach or Lem fan either), but I
think
this piece is just wonderful.

And while we're off topic: somebody mentioned Gentle Giant.
I bought a video tape of a live recording recently - first time I *saw* how
they created this impossibly good music - truely mind boggling.

JH.






From czech at Micronas.Com  Wed Sep  6 15:43:41 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:43:41 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <200009061343.PAA07317@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::I have a 24 bit unit clocked from a VCO that has no automatic
:::"forbidden" state fixer.  I have a reset switch that I have used only
:::once when troubleshooting it.  The math says that if the unit
:::is well constructed, there should be no possibility of locking up.
:::I've used mine for hours and hours and never had a problem.

sure. For audio purposes there may be no need for a false mode
detector. If the noise stops, give it  a reset. OTOH for serious
applications such a detector is a must. Any circuit I design here will
NOT pass any design review if I can't prove how the system will get out
of such a trap, with good reason. We had several cases of grief were
such locking up causes "crash" of a chip.

You can not say by math that the false state will never be, instead you
can predict the propability.

And if it happens only once in week, it's even worse!  How long will you
need to find such a design flaw, if it takes a week to get the system
into the "funny" mode.

Avoiding the false state was not the main idea of feeding
analog noise into the shift register. The idea was to
improove statistical or spectral behaviour by "scrambling",
as well as artificial sound effects, and having FIR
filtering as well...

This may be interesting for very low frequencys where analog
filters are difficult to realize...

m.c.




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep  6 16:02:36 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 07:02:36 -0700
Subject: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp
References: <ab.3503cd.26e72b26@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39B64E7C.6875F699@silcom.com>



Mvsik at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/5/00 6:45:53 PM EST, patchell at silcom.com writes:
>
> <<  like the one I have but the disk is transparent blue.  Very bizare.
>  >>
> I used to have that one on vinyl, too. I never could get into it much, maybe
> now 20 years later..?
> Snowflakes are Dancing, Pictures at Exhibition, were ok, Cosmos and Bolero
> were interesting, but I liked The Planets and the Firebird the best, and all
> these I once had on vinyl  : ).
>  The Bermuda triangle was made for "Quadraphonic" was it not?
> Tomita likes some "alternative" speaker/ PA setups, as far as I know.

    Judging from what the record liner said, yes, the Bermuda triangle was
recorded in "Quad".  Dolby surround should decode this.  According to the
instructions, you need to put the center channel above you, thus forming the
pyramid.

    My two favs were Snowflakes and the Planets.  Those are the only two I have
on CD.  Well, I have two copies of Snowflakes, a regular one, and one in Dolby
Surround.  I still have all of my vinyls.  Most of them are low mileage as I
would tape them and play the tape.

    -Jim





From jorgen.bergfors at idg.se  Wed Sep  6 16:26:11 2000
From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se (jorgen.bergfors at idg.se)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:26:11 +0200
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
Message-ID: <TFSJQHDQ@idg.se>

>I always used to
wonder who the hell "eventide clockworks" were and why no-one else ever
listed their box........

Synergy did. I think there even was a picture of the Eventide box on the "Sequencer" sleeve (LP of course).

/Jorgen



From gendreau at rochester.rr.com  Wed Sep  6 16:45:40 2000
From: gendreau at rochester.rr.com (Dan Gendreau)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:45:40 -0400
Subject: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp
In-Reply-To: <39B5845D.40AA128E@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <000201c01811$205c6290$0a00a8c0@dan>

>     Also, there is supposed to be a "message" on the disk.  It is
> encoded in one of the popular cassette formats that computers
> used back in those days to save data.
> It was not the 300 baud one, can't believe I can't even remember
> the name of that one, but one that saved at 1200 baud......
> OK, I just went and grabed the record.
> It is encoded in the TARBEL system.

If you give me a wav file of it, I can probably decode it for you. I managed
to reverse engineer the MC202 tape save format uning cooledit and some
custom C++ code.

I dunno what the heck TARBEL is. Sounds like an anagram to me... Its
probably just FM encided serial data...

-Dan G.




From ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil  Wed Sep  6 17:06:56 2000
From: ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil (Jules Ryckebusch)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 08:06:56 -0700
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02725514@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <39B65D90.B460F5E6@ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil>

God Tomita! I totally got into Synths based on Tomita, Walter (Wendy) Carlos,
Synergy, Vangelis (pre Running with torches!)  ELP and of course Pink Floyd.
All my friends wanted guitars (This was mind you mid/late 70's) I built a
synth. Haven't stopped either. What amazes me is that all of this stuff was
done before "New Age" or any other alternative label for, at least the
electronic stuff. Thanks to larry Fast, I have a complete Synergy collection on
CD and was playing some in a DJ set a while ago. All these 20 year olds
couldn't believe that it was over 20 years old. Any one know how much Tomita is
on CD? I guess I could search amazon, but.... that would cause me to whip out
the Visa card.

Jules




From jmar at intface.com  Wed Sep  6 17:08:38 2000
From: jmar at intface.com (Jay Martin)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:08:38 -0400 
Subject: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp
Message-ID: <3ED7C23D1CA6D01183370060B01A842E6277E5@lp1>

TARBEL is an old S-100 based cassette interface card.  Kinda a standard
before the "Kansas-City Standard" emerged later in computer history.  If
memory serves, it was popular circa 1973-76 (or there abouts).  

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Gendreau [mailto:gendreau at rochester.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:46 AM
To: patchell; synthDIY
Subject: RE: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp


>     Also, there is supposed to be a "message" on the disk.  It is
> encoded in one of the popular cassette formats that computers
> used back in those days to save data.
> It was not the 300 baud one, can't believe I can't even remember
> the name of that one, but one that saved at 1200 baud......
> OK, I just went and grabed the record.
> It is encoded in the TARBEL system.

If you give me a wav file of it, I can probably decode it for you. I managed
to reverse engineer the MC202 tape save format uning cooledit and some
custom C++ code.

I dunno what the heck TARBEL is. Sounds like an anagram to me... Its
probably just FM encided serial data...

-Dan G.



From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Wed Sep  6 17:48:06 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:48:06 -0700 
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A31@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

Or you could check out his website:

http://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/classes/m198/toshiaki/tomita/albums.html



Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Jules Ryckebusch [mailto:ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil]
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 8:07 AM
To: DIY
Subject: Re: you say tomita, I say......


God Tomita! I totally got into Synths based on Tomita, Walter (Wendy) Carlos,
Synergy, Vangelis (pre Running with torches!)  ELP and of course Pink Floyd.
All my friends wanted guitars (This was mind you mid/late 70's) I built a
synth. Haven't stopped either. What amazes me is that all of this stuff was
done before "New Age" or any other alternative label for, at least the
electronic stuff. Thanks to larry Fast, I have a complete Synergy collection on
CD and was playing some in a DJ set a while ago. All these 20 year olds
couldn't believe that it was over 20 years old. Any one know how much Tomita is
on CD? I guess I could search amazon, but.... that would cause me to whip out
the Visa card.

Jules



From av599 at lafn.org  Wed Sep  6 17:48:51 2000
From: av599 at lafn.org (Doug Forbes)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:48:51 -0700
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
References: <TFSJQHDQ@idg.se>
Message-ID: <000d01c01819$f59b0440$1309a8c0@default>

Many of you will recall that Eventide came up with the first "Phaser". The
schematic I have of the Mutron Phaser has Eventides' name on it. It's the
familiar multiple opamp-fet circuit that Uni-Vibe did earlier with
photocells instead of fets.

/Doug Forbes

> >I always used to
> wonder who the hell "eventide clockworks" were and why no-one else ever
> listed their box........
>
> Synergy did. I think there even was a picture of the Eventide box on the
"Sequencer" sleeve (LP of course).
>
> /Jorgen
>




From daveh at microsoft.com  Wed Sep  6 17:50:35 2000
From: daveh at microsoft.com (Dave Halliday)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:50:35 -0700 
Subject: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp
Message-ID: <72129E9450B396458A1149FA7AFAD8CAA5F224@red-msg-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

Named after Don Tarbel who devised the system.  It is frequency shift at
1200 baud.

The original Kansas City Standard ( Wayne Green and company ) was 300 baud
and the Tarbel system got 4x throughput with fairly cheap electronics.



-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Gendreau [mailto:gendreau at rochester.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:46 AM
To: patchell; synthDIY
Subject: RE: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp


>     Also, there is supposed to be a "message" on the disk.  It is
> encoded in one of the popular cassette formats that computers
> used back in those days to save data.
> It was not the 300 baud one, can't believe I can't even remember
> the name of that one, but one that saved at 1200 baud......
> OK, I just went and grabed the record.
> It is encoded in the TARBEL system.

If you give me a wav file of it, I can probably decode it for you. I managed
to reverse engineer the MC202 tape save format uning cooledit and some
custom C++ code.

I dunno what the heck TARBEL is. Sounds like an anagram to me... Its
probably just FM encided serial data...

-Dan G.



From thudson at tomy.net  Wed Sep  6 18:30:11 2000
From: thudson at tomy.net (Thomas Hudson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:30:11 -0700
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02725514@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de> <39B65D90.B460F5E6@ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <39B67113.A8ADE3B5@tomy.net>


Another group that really inspired me (and still does)
is Gong. The triology and Hillage's solo albums were
probably what most converted me from traditional 
guitarist to "noise explorer" :-)

For any of you living in the great Northwest, Gong 
will be playing September 12th in Portland at the 
Satyricon.

On a side note, Gong's Tim Blake released an album
"Crystal Machine" many years ago, but I've never been
able to get a copy. Has anyone heard this?

Tomy



From grichter at execpc.com  Wed Sep  6 18:32:14 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:32:14 -0500
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <200009061632.e86GWnp21305@pop1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

Could someone give some general rules for "transversal" filters?
If I am using the term correctly?

This occurs in tapped binary shift registers where multiple taps are summed
to get a multi-level output voltage.

This also has frequency selective effects related to the number of taps,
the tap weights and clocking frequency?

So it is a FIR filter? Short of going and buying some books on DSP, are
there any useful rules of thumb, or handy references?

Thanks,

Grant

>
> Avoiding the false state was not the main idea of feeding
> analog noise into the shift register. The idea was to
> improove statistical or spectral behaviour by "scrambling",
> as well as artificial sound effects, and having FIR
> filtering as well...
>
> This may be interesting for very low frequencys where analog
> filters are difficult to realize...
>
> m.c.
> 



From digiboy at erols.com  Wed Sep  6 19:14:32 2000
From: digiboy at erols.com (Mike B (digiboy))
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:14:32 -0400
Subject: Tomata
In-Reply-To: <39B64E7C.6875F699@silcom.com>
References: <ab.3503cd.26e72b26@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b5dc27d77e6c@[216.164.253.229]>


>
>    My two favs were Snowflakes
Snowflakes was re-released  just a couple months ago on CD in the new BMG
High performance series. I've always been a bit frustrated with the sound
of Tomita's work on vinyl or CD. This new releas is the best sounding
version yet but it still doesn't have the sparkle I expect  to hear in his
stuff. Maybe the masters just sound that way.  Anyway, it's only midline
price  so  if you are in the market, it's worth grabbing.

Mike Berman
digiboy at erols.com







From grichter at execpc.com  Wed Sep  6 19:36:16 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:36:16 -0500
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
Message-ID: <200009061736.e86HaHp51837@pop1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

I saw Gong in Milwaukee. I left the show with the best feeling I have ever
gotten from a concert. They aren't just playing music on stage, their having
FUN. And the audience has fun too. Highly recommended.

----------
>From: Thomas Hudson <thudson at tomy.net>
>To: DIY <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>Subject: Re: you say tomita, I say......
>Date: Wed, Sep 6, 2000, 11:30 AM
>

>
> Another group that really inspired me (and still does)
> is Gong. The triology and Hillage's solo albums were
> probably what most converted me from traditional
> guitarist to "noise explorer" :-)
>
> For any of you living in the great Northwest, Gong
> will be playing September 12th in Portland at the
> Satyricon.
>
> On a side note, Gong's Tim Blake released an album
> "Crystal Machine" many years ago, but I've never been
> able to get a copy. Has anyone heard this?
>
> Tomy
> 



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep  6 20:18:46 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:18:46 +0200
Subject: MM5837? Scott rider and PIC noise!
In-Reply-To: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A2F@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A2F@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <20000906201846M.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Tim Ressel <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>
Subject: RE: MM5837? Scott rider and PIC noise!
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:55:10 -0700 

> So like, what if you took a 7-stage noise gen, and fed it in as the clock for an
> 8-stage noise gen? I think this would have a dithering effect. Would it sound
> like a 56-stage? or a 15-stage?

It would certainly not sound like a 56-stager, and not like the 15-stager.

A 7-stager has the following critical statistic:

Shortest sequence of 0's: 1
Shortest sequence of 1's: 1
Longest sequence of 0's: 6
Longest sequence of 1's: 7
Shortest period: 2
Longest period: 13

What would happend is that the 7-stager would cause a varying delay of the
8-stager's transitions. While this migth sound mind-boggeling, it doesn't make
the noise THAT much more noisier. You will prolong the periods for the
8-stager's 255 phase positions. It is the number of cycles contained in the
7-stager's that will decide on the length of the full sequence. Also, such a
design will have less high-frequency content. I haven't made a FFT thought.

Then, someone proposes, let's XOR the output of the 8'stager with the output
of the 7-stager... well, it does not change the length, but it will cause more
transitions, it will double them infact.

You make much better use of those stages by forming a 15-stager. Now, slowly,
it migth dawn on you why they call them Maximum Length Sequence.

Cheers,
Magnus




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Wed Sep  6 20:28:53 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:28:53 -0700 
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A19@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

I have the Tomita Stravinsky album, as well as most of the others.
My vinyl on the Bermuda is the opaque orange/pink kind of thing I think. 
I have an Eventide Clockworks spectrum analyzer. It is an outboard filter
box with
an interface to APPLE II, which displays the frequency bands in real
time(and glorious 16 color apple II lo-res graphics).
I got it from my old recording teacher at Golden West College; he was just
about to throw it
out when I called, wondering if he still had it. I hadnt talked to him in
about 15 years!
I have never seen one on eBay, or have heard of anyone else who has one.
If someone on the list has one or is interested in knowing about this
device, I have the schematics and
instructions. Mine works great. 
Most people are more familiar with their Harmonizers and the delay unit.
Rory McDonald

-----Original Message-----
From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se [mailto:jorgen.bergfors at idg.se]
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:26 AM
To: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com; synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: Re: you say tomita, I say......


>I always used to
wonder who the hell "eventide clockworks" were and why no-one else ever
listed their box........

Synergy did. I think there even was a picture of the Eventide box on the
"Sequencer" sleeve (LP of course).

/Jorgen



From jfoster at uclink.berkeley.edu  Wed Sep  6 20:41:47 2000
From: jfoster at uclink.berkeley.edu (Jeff Foster - SDA Unix)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:41:47 -0700
Subject: OT-MacIntosh MC-75, info
Message-ID: <39B68FEB.36D316DF@uclink.berkeley.edu>

hi ,

I found, discarded in a salvage bin a MacIntosh MC-75 amplifier.
looks ok, all tubes, cage intact. Has rating on side, 10-100,000hz @
75watts, +/-1.0db....wow.

can anyone suggest a macintosh amp web site. I have not found many
useful links.... 


thanks,
Jeff
-- 

Jeff Foster
SDA UNIX 510-642-8552
261 Evan Hall, UC Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720



From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Wed Sep  6 20:55:41 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:55:41 -0700 
Subject: Tomita and Tarbel
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A1B@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

I am trying to remember what format the Apple II used- I think it is Tarbel
FSK.
If so, I have several working Apple II's- I could try to load the code on
the album and see what happens.
The problem is what is the code? is it a program or ascii data? and if it is
a program, is it written in Integer BASIC,
AppleSoft, TRS-80 BASIC or perhaps assembler? I will look at the album
again, but I seem to remember Isao was sketchy on the subject. If it is
machine code, then what is the starting address?
Now you guys have my curiosity peaked, dammit. 
Rory

>     Also, there is supposed to be a "message" on the disk.  It is
> encoded in one of the popular cassette formats that computers
> used back in those days to save data.
> It was not the 300 baud one, can't believe I can't even remember
> the name of that one, but one that saved at 1200 baud......
> OK, I just went and grabed the record.
> It is encoded in the TARBEL system.

If you give me a wav file of it, I can probably decode it for you. I managed
to reverse engineer the MC202 tape save format uning cooledit and some
custom C++ code.

I dunno what the heck TARBEL is. Sounds like an anagram to me... Its
probably just FM encided serial data...

-Dan G.



From don at till.com  Wed Sep  6 21:15:08 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:15:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT-MacIntosh MC-75, info
In-Reply-To: <39B68FEB.36D316DF@uclink.berkeley.edu> (message from Jeff Foster
	- SDA Unix on Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:41:47 -0700)
Message-ID: <200009061915.MAA01819@shell9.ba.best.com>

   Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:41:47 -0700
   From: Jeff Foster - SDA Unix <jfoster at uclink.berkeley.edu>

   I found, discarded in a salvage bin a MacIntosh MC-75 amplifier.
   looks ok, all tubes, cage intact. Has rating on side, 10-100,000hz @
   75watts, +/-1.0db....wow.

   can anyone suggest a macintosh amp web site. I have not found many
   useful links.... 

You won't find many links if you spell "McIntosh" that way.  :-)

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep  6 21:17:36 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:17:36 -0700
Subject: Psuedo Noise Generator Schematic
Message-ID: <39B69850.75660EBA@silcom.com>

    As promised, I have done a quickie design that will go into a XC9536
cpld.  The features are selectable lenth of 9,18,27 or 36 bits.  This
has not been tested (or simulated for that matter), so......your milage
may differ.  If you spot any obvious problems, it would be nice if you
told me.  Here is the schematic:


http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/noise/noise.pdf



-Jim





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep  6 21:19:16 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:19:16 +0200
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
In-Reply-To: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C3C@LON-MAIL07>
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C3C@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <20000906211916O.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Goddard, Duncan" <goddard.duncan at mtvne.com>
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:52:20 +0100 

> but most importantly, there's usually a HUGE gear list. I always used to
> wonder who the hell "eventide clockworks" were and why no-one else ever
> listed their box........

Well, it is rare that Eventide's gets listed, since it is an effect box after
all. However, if you have a gear-head ranting about the gear used, Eventide
Clockworks may come up. Actually, I enjoy the name since they mess the time up
seriously ;D

Cheers,
Magnus - owns an Eventide H949




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep  6 21:25:01 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:25:01 -0700
Subject: Tomita[WAS]Re: elp
References: <000201c01811$205c6290$0a00a8c0@dan>
Message-ID: <39B69A0D.5D5260B9@silcom.com>



Dan Gendreau wrote:

>
> If you give me a wav file of it, I can probably decode it for you. I managed
> to reverse engineer the MC202 tape save format uning cooledit and some
> custom C++ code.
>
> I dunno what the heck TARBEL is. Sounds like an anagram to me... Its
> probably just FM encided serial data...
>
> -Dan G.

    Well, I can see what I can do to about making a wav file.  I will have to
dig up the old cassette tape.

    TARBEL either marks me as an old guy (guilty) or you as a young guy.  Most
of the home computers from the 1975->1977 era used the old Kansas City Standard
(Hey, the brain cell that remembered that came back to life :-) ), which would
record data onto a standard cassette player at 300 baud.  Dang slow.  I can
remember loading baisc into my old Polymorphic Polly88, took about a half hour.
The TARBEL interface ran at 1200 baud.  It was more expensive.  By the time I
decided I could afford it, floppy disks were all the rage, so I never got one.
If I remember correctly, Tarbel was the first, there were also many imitators.

    -Jim





From Brockr0 at cs.com  Wed Sep  6 21:28:44 2000
From: Brockr0 at cs.com (Brockr0 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:28:44 EDT
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <43.9ee052e.26e7f4ec@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/6/00 6:47:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
czech at Micronas.Com writes:

> 
>  :::I have a 24 bit unit clocked from a VCO that has no automatic
>  :::"forbidden" state fixer.  I have a reset switch that I have used only
>  :::once when troubleshooting it.  The math says that if the unit
>  :::is well constructed, there should be no possibility of locking up.
>  :::I've used mine for hours and hours and never had a problem.
>  
>  sure. For audio purposes there may be no need for a false mode
>  detector. If the noise stops, give it  a reset. OTOH for serious
>  applications such a detector is a must. Any circuit I design here will
>  NOT pass any design review if I can't prove how the system will get out
>  of such a trap, with good reason. We had several cases of grief were
>  such locking up causes "crash" of a chip.
>  
>  You can not say by math that the false state will never be, instead you
>  can predict the propability.

Sorry Martin I have to disagree with you. A linear feedback shift register is 
a math function as Magnus pointed out previously. The tap points produce 
a polynomial equation of the form G(x)= 2^N + 2^(N-a) + 2^(N-b) + ... + 1 
where N is the number of stages in the shift register. The function 
performed by clocking the shift register is division. The pseudo-random 
noise generator is a special case in which the function performs a 
convolution where any number of N bits input will produce a unique output 
of N bits. Continuously clocking the shift register produces a bit stream 
that repeats every  2^(N+1) clocks. 
By design, there can be no "false mode".


>  Avoiding the false state was not the main idea of feeding
>  analog noise into the shift register. The idea was to
>  improove statistical or spectral behaviour by "scrambling",
>  as well as artificial sound effects, and having FIR
>  filtering as well...
>  
>  This may be interesting for very low frequencys where analog
>  filters are difficult to realize...

This one is more interesting. 
Firstly, the whole reason for implementing a long tapped shift register is 
to more accurately simulate analog noise, so if you already have an 
analog noise source why waste hardware on pseudo-random noise 
source? Except of course that they do sound different and you can 
never have too much hardware.

The spectral behavior of a pseudo-random noise source is dominated 
by the clock rate. Messing with bits in the shift register is not going to 
change it much. But...

A properly implemented linear feedback shift register output is, 
statistically, as random as it can be. If you arbitrarily change bits 
you reduce the length of the bit stream loop, at least temporarily. 
Does this make it more or less random? Any chaos theory guys out 
there?

Brock Russell



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep  6 22:08:09 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 22:08:09 +0200
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
In-Reply-To: <v02130502b5b353fb1f0c@[208.25.89.92]>
References: <v02130502b5b353fb1f0c@[208.25.89.92]>
Message-ID: <20000906220809M.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Kirke Sonnichsen <kirke at lmi.net>
Subject: Re: you say tomita, I say......
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 10:42:27 -0700

> I always thought 'Eventide Clockworks' was a much better name
> than simply 'Eventide' (especially since they were doing digital
> audio in the 70's!)
> 
> I wonder why they stopped using it?
> 
> - Kirke
> (anyone got a H949 de-glitch board?)

Yeap! What about it?

Cheers,
Magnus




From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Wed Sep  6 22:50:56 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:50:56 -0700 
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A33@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

Well, you math weenies have one on me. I can tell you that I have studied PRN
sources with FFT analysers, and the output falls into well defined buckets. In
between the buckets there are definite holes: frequencies with no energy. My
idea was to frequency modulate the clock with another unrelated PRN. This would
smear out the energy and fill in the holes. This I believe would make for better
"noise".

Does it ever bug anyone that we are discussing the vageries of *noise* quality?


Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Brockr0 at cs.com [mailto:Brockr0 at cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 12:29 PM
To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: Re: Junction Noise


In a message dated 9/6/00 6:47:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
czech at Micronas.Com writes:

> 
>  :::I have a 24 bit unit clocked from a VCO that has no automatic
>  :::"forbidden" state fixer.  I have a reset switch that I have used only
>  :::once when troubleshooting it.  The math says that if the unit
>  :::is well constructed, there should be no possibility of locking up.
>  :::I've used mine for hours and hours and never had a problem.
>  
>  sure. For audio purposes there may be no need for a false mode
>  detector. If the noise stops, give it  a reset. OTOH for serious
>  applications such a detector is a must. Any circuit I design here will
>  NOT pass any design review if I can't prove how the system will get out
>  of such a trap, with good reason. We had several cases of grief were
>  such locking up causes "crash" of a chip.
>  
>  You can not say by math that the false state will never be, instead you
>  can predict the propability.

Sorry Martin I have to disagree with you. A linear feedback shift register is 
a math function as Magnus pointed out previously. The tap points produce 
a polynomial equation of the form G(x)= 2^N + 2^(N-a) + 2^(N-b) + ... + 1 
where N is the number of stages in the shift register. The function 
performed by clocking the shift register is division. The pseudo-random 
noise generator is a special case in which the function performs a 
convolution where any number of N bits input will produce a unique output 
of N bits. Continuously clocking the shift register produces a bit stream 
that repeats every  2^(N+1) clocks. 
By design, there can be no "false mode".


>  Avoiding the false state was not the main idea of feeding
>  analog noise into the shift register. The idea was to
>  improove statistical or spectral behaviour by "scrambling",
>  as well as artificial sound effects, and having FIR
>  filtering as well...
>  
>  This may be interesting for very low frequencys where analog
>  filters are difficult to realize...

This one is more interesting. 
Firstly, the whole reason for implementing a long tapped shift register is 
to more accurately simulate analog noise, so if you already have an 
analog noise source why waste hardware on pseudo-random noise 
source? Except of course that they do sound different and you can 
never have too much hardware.

The spectral behavior of a pseudo-random noise source is dominated 
by the clock rate. Messing with bits in the shift register is not going to 
change it much. But...

A properly implemented linear feedback shift register output is, 
statistically, as random as it can be. If you arbitrarily change bits 
you reduce the length of the bit stream loop, at least temporarily. 
Does this make it more or less random? Any chaos theory guys out 
there?

Brock Russell



From efm3 at mediaone.net  Wed Sep  6 22:51:01 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:51:01 -0700
Subject: you say tomita, I say......
References: <TFSJQHDQ@idg.se> <000d01c01819$f59b0440$1309a8c0@default>
Message-ID: <001201c01844$2c45f980$0200a8c0@pc102>

Ok this give me a chance to clear a few things up. I thought the
first fet/opamp phase-lag was a National AN from '68-'69 and
the first commercial model was the Maestro PS-1 designed by 
Oberheim about '70.

I thought the '67 Uni-Vibe was bandpass...not a true phase-shifter.

And while I'm asking has anybody ever seen or have info on a 
small orange box (MRX looking but ain't) called a "Roto-Phaser"?
I would love to build one!

Tom



> Many of you will recall that Eventide came up with the first "Phaser". The
> schematic I have of the Mutron Phaser has Eventides' name on it. It's the
> familiar multiple opamp-fet circuit that Uni-Vibe did earlier with
> photocells instead of fets.
> 
> /Doug Forbes
> 
> > >I always used to
> > wonder who the hell "eventide clockworks" were and why no-one else ever
> > listed their box........
> >
> > Synergy did. I think there even was a picture of the Eventide box on the
> "Sequencer" sleeve (LP of course).
> >
> > /Jorgen
> >
> 




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep  6 22:59:32 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 22:59:32 +0200
Subject: Psuedo Noise Generator Schematic
In-Reply-To: <39B69850.75660EBA@silcom.com>
References: <39B69850.75660EBA@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000906225932W.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Jim Patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: Psuedo Noise Generator Schematic
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:17:36 -0700

Jim,

>     As promised, I have done a quickie design that will go into a XC9536
> cpld.  The features are selectable lenth of 9,18,27 or 36 bits.  This
> has not been tested (or simulated for that matter), so......your milage
> may differ.  If you spot any obvious problems, it would be nice if you
> told me.  Here is the schematic:
> 
> 
> http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/noise/noise.pdf

OK. I reverse engineer out these polynoms:

 9    5
x  + x  + 1

 18    6
x   + x  + 1

 27    5    2    1
x   + x  + x  + x  + 1

 36    24
x   + x   + 1

Now, for the polynomial form

 n    m
x  + x  + 1

the polynomial

 n    n-m
x  + x    + 1

is also correct.

So, in one book I have n = 9 and m = 5 and in another I have n = 9 and m = 4,
but these are equalent. m may also be 1 and 8.

However, for n = 18 I have m = 7 in one book and m = 11 in the other, but these
are equalent according to the rule. Your schematic does not match either of
these. Actually, in other sources I have that m may be 3, 7, 9, 11 and 15.

For n = 27 there is no valid polynom with only one tap, so we have to rely on
multiple taps, and there you have a valid one.

For n = 36 I have m as 9, 11, 15, 21, 25 and 27 but 24 is not allowed.

So, as far as I have researched you have 2 out of 4. Move two taps and you
should have a full house!

Oh, if anyone wondered, there is no m for which you get a valid polynom when
you have n to be 1024, that is a 1024 D flip-flops long shift register...
I guess all you guys where sitting there and pondering about that, wheren't
you? ;O)

Cheers,
Magnus




From Brockr0 at cs.com  Wed Sep  6 23:10:49 2000
From: Brockr0 at cs.com (Brockr0 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:10:49 EDT
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <66.7322003.26e80cd9@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/6/00 1:58:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cfmd at swipnet.se 
writes:

> Incorrect, the number of states possible in the state machines that you have
>  built is 1 and 2^N - 1. The polynomial will ensure the maximum length 
> sequence

You are correct. I am getting LFSR mixed up with CRC generation where you have
a single NOR on the feedback. 

Brock Russell



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep  6 23:15:43 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:15:43 +0200
Subject: Junction Noise
In-Reply-To: <43.9ee052e.26e7f4ec@cs.com>
References: <43.9ee052e.26e7f4ec@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20000906231543L.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Brockr0 at cs.com
Subject: Re: Junction Noise
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:28:44 EDT

> In a message dated 9/6/00 6:47:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> czech at Micronas.Com writes:
> 
> > 
> >  :::I have a 24 bit unit clocked from a VCO that has no automatic
> >  :::"forbidden" state fixer.  I have a reset switch that I have used only
> >  :::once when troubleshooting it.  The math says that if the unit
> >  :::is well constructed, there should be no possibility of locking up.
> >  :::I've used mine for hours and hours and never had a problem.
> >  
> >  sure. For audio purposes there may be no need for a false mode
> >  detector. If the noise stops, give it  a reset. OTOH for serious
> >  applications such a detector is a must. Any circuit I design here will
> >  NOT pass any design review if I can't prove how the system will get out
> >  of such a trap, with good reason. We had several cases of grief were
> >  such locking up causes "crash" of a chip.
> >  
> >  You can not say by math that the false state will never be, instead you
> >  can predict the propability.
> 
> Sorry Martin I have to disagree with you. A linear feedback shift register is 
> a math function as Magnus pointed out previously. The tap points produce 
> a polynomial equation of the form G(x)= 2^N + 2^(N-a) + 2^(N-b) + ... + 1 
> where N is the number of stages in the shift register. The function 
> performed by clocking the shift register is division. The pseudo-random 
> noise generator is a special case in which the function performs a 
> convolution where any number of N bits input will produce a unique output 
> of N bits. Continuously clocking the shift register produces a bit stream 
> that repeats every  2^(N+1) clocks. 
> By design, there can be no "false mode".

Incorrect, the number of states possible in the state machines that you have
built is 1 and 2^N - 1. The polynomial will ensure the maximum length sequence
for one of the state-machines, but there is a second (or first) state machine
having a single state and the linear feedback (yes! This is linear feedback
in the Galois Field GF(2).) will not see anything else. Using XOR gates only
you may not have all zeros, since then there is no chance you could get a 1.
This is the stable state of the other state machine. You need non-linear
hardware (a NOR on all outputs and the OR that result in on any input) in order
to ensure that you get an transitions from that state into basically any state
in the other state machine, then that will loop linearly over the states it
has.

> >  Avoiding the false state was not the main idea of feeding
> >  analog noise into the shift register. The idea was to
> >  improove statistical or spectral behaviour by "scrambling",
> >  as well as artificial sound effects, and having FIR
> >  filtering as well...
> >  
> >  This may be interesting for very low frequencys where analog
> >  filters are difficult to realize...
> 
> This one is more interesting. 
> Firstly, the whole reason for implementing a long tapped shift register is 
> to more accurately simulate analog noise, so if you already have an 
> analog noise source why waste hardware on pseudo-random noise 
> source? Except of course that they do sound different and you can 
> never have too much hardware.
> 
> The spectral behavior of a pseudo-random noise source is dominated 
> by the clock rate. Messing with bits in the shift register is not going to 
> change it much. But...

Well, when you get longer shift registers, the noise spectrum gets denser
given the same clock frequency. I have explained this in detail some time back
with a bunch of formulas.

Cheers,
Magnus




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep  6 23:20:07 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:20:07 -0700
Subject: Psuedo Noise Generator Schematic
References: <39B69850.75660EBA@silcom.com> <20000906225932W.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39B6B507.C4D6ED82@silcom.com>



Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: Jim Patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> Subject: Psuedo Noise Generator Schematic
> Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:17:36 -0700
>
> Jim,
>
> >     As promised, I have done a quickie design that will go into a XC9536
> > cpld.  The features are selectable lenth of 9,18,27 or 36 bits.  This
> > has not been tested (or simulated for that matter), so......your milage
> > may differ.  If you spot any obvious problems, it would be nice if you
> > told me.  Here is the schematic:
> >
> >
> > http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/noise/noise.pdf
>
> OK. I reverse engineer out these polynoms:
>
>  9    5
> x  + x  + 1
>
>  18    6
> x   + x  + 1
>
>  27    5    2    1
> x   + x  + x  + x  + 1
>
>  36    24
> x   + x   + 1
>
> Now, for the polynomial form
>
>  n    m
> x  + x  + 1
>
> the polynomial
>
>  n    n-m
> x  + x    + 1
>
> is also correct.
>
> So, in one book I have n = 9 and m = 5 and in another I have n = 9 and m = 4,
> but these are equalent. m may also be 1 and 8.
>
> However, for n = 18 I have m = 7 in one book and m = 11 in the other, but these
> are equalent according to the rule. Your schematic does not match either of
> these. Actually, in other sources I have that m may be 3, 7, 9, 11 and 15.
>

    Check you count on this one.  I still count m=11.  I counted it in both
directions (but I am also not very good in the vision department).

>
> For n = 27 there is no valid polynom with only one tap, so we have to rely on
> multiple taps, and there you have a valid one.
>
> For n = 36 I have m as 9, 11, 15, 21, 25 and 27 but 24 is not allowed.
>

    This one I definately miscounted.

>
> So, as far as I have researched you have 2 out of 4. Move two taps and you
> should have a full house!
>
> Oh, if anyone wondered, there is no m for which you get a valid polynom when
> you have n to be 1024, that is a 1024 D flip-flops long shift register...
> I guess all you guys where sitting there and pondering about that, wheren't
> you? ;O)
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep  6 23:22:54 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:22:54 -0700
Subject: Blew my chance!!!
Message-ID: <39B6B5AE.E18291CD@silcom.com>

    With all of the talk about putting noise generators into gate
arrays, I thought maybe I should get myself a copy for home.  TOO LATE.
The price on DS-FND-BAS-PC has increased from $95 US to $1090.00 US :-(

    I knew I should have purchased when I had the chance.

    -Jim





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep  6 23:45:35 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:45:35 +0200
Subject: Junction Noise
In-Reply-To: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A33@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A33@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <20000906234535A.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Tim Ressel <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>
Subject: RE: Junction Noise
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:50:56 -0700 

> Well, you math weenies have one on me. I can tell you that I have studied PRN
> sources with FFT analysers, and the output falls into well defined buckets. In
> between the buckets there are definite holes: frequencies with no energy. My
> idea was to frequency modulate the clock with another unrelated PRN. This would
> smear out the energy and fill in the holes. This I believe would make for better
> "noise".

It is definitly so that the noise from there PRNGs is not *continous*, it isn't
and we should not be fooled to beleive it is. It consist of a number of evenly
spread frequency spikes. There are 2^N - 1 of these frequencies spread from DC
up to half of the clock frequency, so getting N higher will make the spectrum
denser, thus, more frequencies will occur over the same span. Each new D
flip-flop is worth doubled amount of frequencies.

So, the question is really, how dense would it have to be before we consider
it just as good as any other noise source?
Adding length is fairly cheap, dropping in a million more frequencies between
two frequencies is cheap, it is just a matter of knowing the "magic" tap
numbers. Luckilly, Synth-DIY seems to be the list to call on to get those ;D

> Does it ever bug anyone that we are discussing the vageries of *noise* quality?

Hum?

Oh, is this thread keeping the list "noisy"?

Cheers,
Magnus




From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Wed Sep  6 23:46:57 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:46:57 -0700 
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A35@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

To all except Magnus   ;-)

Does anyone have info on making shift register-style PRN generators bigger than
32 bits?? I'm thinking 64 bits and get it over with. I have up to 32 bits from
Chamberlan's book and Lancaster's CMOS cookbook, but I need MORE!!!  (heh heh)

Thanks!


Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep  6 23:55:41 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:55:41 +0200
Subject: Psuedo Noise Generator Schematic
In-Reply-To: <39B6B507.C4D6ED82@silcom.com>
References: <39B69850.75660EBA@silcom.com>
	<20000906225932W.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39B6B507.C4D6ED82@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000906235541F.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Jim Patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: Re: Psuedo Noise Generator Schematic
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:20:07 -0700

> > However, for n = 18 I have m = 7 in one book and m = 11 in the other, but these
> > are equalent according to the rule. Your schematic does not match either of
> > these. Actually, in other sources I have that m may be 3, 7, 9, 11 and 15.
> >
> 
>     Check you count on this one.  I still count m=11.  I counted it in both
> directions (but I am also not very good in the vision department).

Yes, on this one you are correct. This rises your score to 3 out of 4. ;)

> >
> > For n = 27 there is no valid polynom with only one tap, so we have to rely on
> > multiple taps, and there you have a valid one.
> >
> > For n = 36 I have m as 9, 11, 15, 21, 25 and 27 but 24 is not allowed.
> >
> 
>     This one I definately miscounted.

Ah, good. The we found a real bug then.

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep  6 23:57:22 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:57:22 +0200
Subject: Junction Noise
In-Reply-To: <66.7322003.26e80cd9@cs.com>
References: <66.7322003.26e80cd9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20000906235722T.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Brockr0 at cs.com
Subject: Re: Junction Noise
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:10:49 EDT

> In a message dated 9/6/00 1:58:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cfmd at swipnet.se 
> writes:
> 
> > Incorrect, the number of states possible in the state machines that you have
> >  built is 1 and 2^N - 1. The polynomial will ensure the maximum length 
> > sequence
> 
> You are correct. I am getting LFSR mixed up with CRC generation where you have
> a single NOR on the feedback. 

So similar but oh so diffrent.

Are you sure you meant NOR? XOR or XNOR is more like it.

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Sep  7 00:22:04 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 00:22:04 +0200
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
In-Reply-To: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A35@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A35@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <20000907002204J.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Tim Ressel <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:46:57 -0700 

Tim,

> To all except Magnus   ;-)

Well, this is since he asked off-list... I didn't have the answer, but since I
have made a little search, so... I ignore this ;D

> Does anyone have info on making shift register-style PRN generators bigger than
> 32 bits?? I'm thinking 64 bits and get it over with. I have up to 32 bits from
> Chamberlan's book and Lancaster's CMOS cookbook, but I need MORE!!!  (heh heh)

How about this:

1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^64 
1 + X + X^63 
1 + X^3 + X^5 + X^6 + X^62 
1 + X + X^2 + X^5 + X^61 
1 + X + X^60 
1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^5 + X^6 + X^59 
1 + X + X^5 + X^6 + X^58 
1 + X^4 + X^57 
1 + X^2 + X^4 + X^7 + X^56 
1 + X + X^2 + X^6 + X^55 
1 + X^2 + X^3 + X^4 + X^5 + X^6 + X^54 
1 + X + X^2 + X^6 + X^53 
1 + X^3 + X^52 
1 + X + X^3 + X^6 + X^51 
1 + X^2 + X^3 + X^4 + X^50 
1 + X^4 + X^5 + X^6 + X^49 
1 + X^2 + X^3 + X^5 + X^48 
1 + X^5 + X^47 
1 + X + X^46 
1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^45 
1 + X^5 + X^44 
1 + X^3 + X^4 + X^6 + X^43 
1 + X + X^2 + X^5 + X^42 
1 + X^3 + X^41 
1 + X^3 + X^4 + X^5 + X^40 
1 + X^4 + X^39 
1 + X + X^5 + X^6 + X^38 
1 + X + X^2 + X^3 + X^4 + X^5 + X^37 
1 + X^2 + X^4 + X^5 + X^36 
1 + X^2 + X^35 
1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^34 
1 + X + X^3 + X^6 + X^33 
1 + X^2 + X^3 + X^7 + X^32 
1 + X^3 + X^31 
1 + X + X^30 
1 + X^2 + X^29 
1 + X + X^28 
1 + X + X^2 + X^5 + X^27 
1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^26 
1 + X^3 + X^25 
1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^24 
1 + X^5 + X^23 
1 + X + X^22 
1 + X^2 + X^21 
1 + X^3 + X^20 
1 + X + X^2 + X^5 + X^19 
1 + X^3 + X^18 
1 + X^3 + X^17 
1 + X + X^3 + X^5 + X^16 
1 + X + X^15 
1 + X^5 + X^14 
1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^13 
1 + X^3 + X^12 
1 + X^2 + X^11 
1 + X^3 + X^10 
1 + X + X^9 
1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^8 
1 + X + X^7 
1 + X + X^6 
1 + X^2 + X^5 
1 + X + X^4 
1 + X + X^3 
1 + X + X^2

> Thanks!

You are wellcome. Let me know if you plan to go over 64...

Cheers,
Magnus




From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Sep  7 00:55:08 2000
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:55:08 +0200
Subject: Junction Noise
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A33@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <003001c01855$83450800$a238363e@debitel.net>


> Well, you math weenies have one on me. I can tell you that I have studied
PRN
> sources with FFT analysers, and the output falls into well defined
buckets. In
> between the buckets there are definite holes: frequencies with no energy.
My
> idea was to frequency modulate the clock with another unrelated PRN. This
would
> smear out the energy and fill in the holes. This I believe would make for
better
> "noise".

If you just play your PRN sequence _once_, you should have a continuous
spectrum.
(But only for a limited time, unfortunately.)
The more often you repeat the same cycle, the less "smearing" you will get,
and
at infinite repetition you'll have discrete frequencies.
So altering the sequence, or the playback speed of the same sequence,
between
every cycle, must surely help to preserve the "smearing". With another PRN
serving
as a modulation source, the variations will not be unlimited either. You
will
get some repetition as well - only much later. It would surely be an
improovement
compared with one single PRN.
The big question is, will this improovement be better than simply investing
the additional PRN in an increased length of the first one, rather than
splitting in
two PRNs and finding an optimal modulation algorithm ?
What if for a certain number of flipflops the linear arrangement of all
flipflops
*is* the best algorithm ?
(I cannot answer this.)

JH.





From efm3 at mediaone.net  Thu Sep  7 00:59:02 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:59:02 -0700
Subject: OT-MacIntosh MC-75, info
References: <39B68FEB.36D316DF@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <001f01c01856$0e460da0$0200a8c0@pc102>

Too bad you didn't find 2...go back and have another look!
At the very least you have a great mono-block for a studio
bass amp.

Tom


> hi ,
> 
> I found, discarded in a salvage bin a MacIntosh MC-75 amplifier.
> looks ok, all tubes, cage intact. Has rating on side, 10-100,000hz @
> 75watts, +/-1.0db....wow.
> 
> can anyone suggest a macintosh amp web site. I have not found many
> useful links.... 
> 
> 
> thanks,
> Jeff
> -- 
> 
> Jeff Foster
> SDA UNIX 510-642-8552
> 261 Evan Hall, UC Berkeley
> Berkeley, CA 94720




From buchi at takeonetech.de  Thu Sep  7 01:23:06 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:23:06 GMT
Subject: Commodore SID 6581 working !
Message-ID: <39b7d1d8.25002142@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

Hello group,

Thank you all very much for your help with my SID project,
on- and offlist !!!

it is now up and running fine. If anybody wants, you can
see it at its own web page:
http://www.buchi.de/ParallelSID/


-Michael Buchstaller



From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Thu Sep  7 01:41:27 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:41:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
In-Reply-To: <20000907002204J.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061939210.17709-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


> How about this:
> 
> 1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^64 
> 1 + X + X^63 

  So a 63-bit lfsr would have taps on 63 and 62.  OK, one PIC version
coming right up. ;)

Crow

/**/




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Sep  7 01:48:05 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 01:48:05 +0200
Subject: Junction Noise
In-Reply-To: <003001c01855$83450800$a238363e@debitel.net>
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A33@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
	<003001c01855$83450800$a238363e@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <20000907014805V.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
Subject: Re: Junction Noise
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:55:08 +0200

Somehow I think we have come far of the junction noise (look at the thread
subject) and wandered into the wonders that governs discrete math and which
theories we fall back upon when we do random generators in digital.

> If you just play your PRN sequence _once_, you should have a continuous
> spectrum.

There are more things that needs to be ideal, but never the less...

> (But only for a limited time, unfortunately.)

Yeap. Most unfortunatly so. It would solve a hell of a lot of powering problems
too.

> The more often you repeat the same cycle, the less "smearing" you will get,
> and
> at infinite repetition you'll have discrete frequencies.
> So altering the sequence, or the playback speed of the same sequence,
> between
> every cycle, must surely help to preserve the "smearing".

Correct.

> With another PRN serving as a modulation source, the variations will not be
> unlimited either. You will get some repetition as well - only much later. It
> would surely be an improovement compared with one single PRN.

Yes.

> The big question is, will this improovement be better than simply investing
> the additional PRN in an increased length of the first one, rather than
> splitting in two PRNs and finding an optimal modulation algorithm ?
> What if for a certain number of flipflops the linear arrangement of all
> flipflops
> *is* the best algorithm ?
> (I cannot answer this.)

Let me try to provide an answer.

Given that we have two PRN sequence machines, A and B. We let A clock the B
machine with it's output. Our output signal is the output of the B machine.

If we consider both the A and B PRNs as being state machines, having a 2^N-1
number of cyclic states property (where N is either NA or NB), we can have at
most

  NA          NB         NA+NB    NA    NB
(2   - 1) * (2   - 1) = 2      - 2   - 2   + 1

states in the combined state machine. However, if we where rigging the two
shift registers as a common PRN setup, then we would have

 NA+NB
2      - 1

states. Thus, regardless of HOW we try to rig PRN A to control the advancement
of PRN B, this would allways be worse, then trying to rig them into a single
PRN. The only way to get around this is to add more statemachines (flip-flops
or whatever), but the comparision is only of interest if we allow as many bits
in the statemachines. Thus, the Maximum Length Sequence is called so since it
has a period which is only one less then the theoretical maximum of that
hardware (state holding).

Note also that one has to select the individual length of the A and B machines
with care, or otherwise they migth have a much shorter looping time than
anticipated.

Regardless of this theoretical proof that you get longer sequences by running
a common PRN rather than two separate, this does not eliminate that there are
other interesting aspects with doing such an exercis, like the power
distribution over the spectra.

Cheers,
Magnus





From Brockr0 at cs.com  Thu Sep  7 01:54:20 2000
From: Brockr0 at cs.com (Brockr0 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:54:20 EDT
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <fb.ad64a02.26e8332c@cs.com>

Magnus, cfmd at swipnet.se writes:

> So similar but oh so diffrent.
>  
>  Are you sure you meant NOR? XOR or XNOR is more like it.
>  
>  

I'll get this right yet.

NAND and XOR actually, for CRC generation. Input data NANDed with last stage 
output fed back to the first stage and XORed at the polynomial taps,except 
they are inputs so they are not really taps... 

If you want a pseudo-random pattern generator, you don't have an input data 
stream, so change the output NAND to NOT and feed it back to the first stage 
and the polynomial XOR inputs. I don't know if every prime polynomial will 
give a maximal length non-repeating string with no invalid states but I 
believe the common communications CRC polynomials such as CRC-32 and CRC-16 
work this way as they are chosen for this convolution  characteristic.


Brock Russell



From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Thu Sep  7 02:21:04 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:21:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
In-Reply-To: <20000907002204J.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009062015030.17709-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


  Have a look at:

  http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508_63.asm

  It expands the shift register to 63 bits, with taps at 62 & 63 as
per the 1 + X + X^63 polynomial.  The only tradeoff is that the loop time
for a bit is 4us longer, lowering the max. frequency to 17.8KHz or so.
With a bit of tweaking, I can shrink the loop time again.  Here is the fun
part: (from the code comments)

;
;   The main loop 'taps' is 28 CPU cycles.  At the 4MHz internal clock
; rate, the noise output is operating at a max. rate of about 17.8KHz.
; It is 1 microsecond per CPU cycle, so 28us per bit output.  It takes
; two bits (one high, one low or vice-versa) to define the highest
; frequency, or a period of 56us.  The highest frequency is thus 17,857Hz.
; Since the LFSR will cycle through 2^63-1 states, it will take
; 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 iterations of the taps loop to return to the
; starting seed value.  At a rate of about 35,714 loops per second, it 
; will take a mere 8,183,588 YEARS to repeat.
;

  I think I got that right... ;)

Crow

/**/




From IXQY at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 02:30:17 2000
From: IXQY at aol.com (IXQY at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:30:17 EDT
Subject: OT-MacIntosh MC-75, info
Message-ID: <b2.a54072f.26e83b99@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/6/00 1:49:58 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jfoster at uclink.berkeley.edu writes:

> I found, discarded in a salvage bin a MacIntosh MC-75 amplifier.
>  looks ok, all tubes, cage intact. Has rating on side, 10-100,000hz @
>  75watts, +/-1.0db....wow.
>  
>  can anyone suggest a macintosh amp web site. I have not found many
>  useful links.... 
>  

 Here ya go:

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/index.html

 The "contact" link at the bottom takes you to a page where you can order a 
service manual.
 
 Hope that helps,
  Andrew Sanchez 
 (an ex-McIntosh sales guy...loved the gear, hated selling!)



From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep  7 02:32:06 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:32:06 -0700
Subject: Blew my chance!!!
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A37@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <39B6E206.F73DE454@silcom.com>

    I was so bummed I didn't notice I left of the important peice of
info.....That is the Basic Schematic Capture Foundation software from
Xilinx.  Digikey had it for $95, just a month ago.  That deal has ended.
Everybody is now charging slightly more than $1000 for it now :-(

    What is a DIY dude to do.....?

Tim Ressel wrote:

> The price on which??
>
> Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
> Hewlett-Packard
> Verifone Division
> 3755 Atherton Rd.
> Rocklin, Cal
> 916-630-2541
> timothy_ressel at hp.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Patchell [mailto:patchell at silcom.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:23 PM
> To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: Blew my chance!!!
>
>     With all of the talk about putting noise generators into gate
> arrays, I thought maybe I should get myself a copy for home.  TOO LATE.
> The price on DS-FND-BAS-PC has increased from $95 US to $1090.00 US :-(
>
>     I knew I should have purchased when I had the chance.
>
>     -Jim

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From IXQY at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 02:41:55 2000
From: IXQY at aol.com (IXQY at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:41:55 EDT
Subject: Tomita and Tarbel
Message-ID: <b6.a4176ab.26e83e53@aol.com>


 If anyone's interested, here's a great Tomita site:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~cloud/tomita/index.html

 Here's the direct page to the Bermuda Triangle album. 
http://homepage.eircom.net/~cloud/tomita/index.html

 It's really great to see all the fans here..

  Cheers,
 Andrew Sanchez


 http://homepage.eircom.net/~cloud/tomita/recordings/bermuda.html

In a message dated 9/6/00 2:08:33 PM Central Daylight Time, 
RMcDonald at wireone.com writes:

> I am trying to remember what format the Apple II used- I think it is Tarbel
>  FSK.
>  If so, I have several working Apple II's- I could try to load the code on
>  the album and see what happens.
>  The problem is what is the code? is it a program or ascii data? and if it 
is
>  a program, is it written in Integer BASIC,
>  AppleSoft, TRS-80 BASIC or perhaps assembler? I will look at the album
>  again, but I seem to remember Isao was sketchy on the subject. If it is
>  machine code, then what is the starting address?
>  Now you guys have my curiosity peaked, dammit. 
>  Rory
>  
>  >     Also, there is supposed to be a "message" on the disk.  It is
>  > encoded in one of the popular cassette formats that computers
>  > used back in those days to save data.
>  > It was not the 300 baud one, can't believe I can't even remember
>  > the name of that one, but one that saved at 1200 baud......
>  > OK, I just went and grabed the record.
>  > It is encoded in the TARBEL system.
>  
>  If you give me a wav file of it, I can probably decode it for you. I 
managed
>  to reverse engineer the MC202 tape save format uning cooledit and some
>  custom C++ code.
>  
>  I dunno what the heck TARBEL is. Sounds like an anagram to me... Its
>  probably just FM encided serial data...
>  
>  -Dan G.



From IXQY at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 02:49:23 2000
From: IXQY at aol.com (IXQY at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:49:23 EDT
Subject: Tomita link error (was:Re: Tomita and Tarbel)
Message-ID: <61.6e98093.26e84013@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/6/00 7:44:40 PM Central Daylight Time, IXQY at aol.com 
writes:

>  If anyone's interested, here's a great Tomita site:
>  http://homepage.eircom.net/~cloud/tomita/index.html
>  
>   Here's the direct page to the Bermuda Triangle album. 
>  http://homepage.eircom.net/~cloud/tomita/index.html
>  
 
 OOPS! The direct page to Bermuda Triangle is:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~cloud/tomita/recordings/bermuda.html

 Andrew



From Synthmanic at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 03:01:42 2000
From: Synthmanic at aol.com (Synthmanic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:01:42 EDT
Subject: ELP,Tomita & Prog Music
Message-ID: <a4.91fb7c5.26e842f6@aol.com>


 If anybody here is interested in this genre of music, there is a magazine 
that caters to it. It's called Progression and here is their web address:
http://progressionmagazine.com/
 If it weren't for the radio station K-SHE 95 in St. Louis, I never would 
have been turned on to this kind of music. This was back in the '70s when the 
DJs had more to do with what was played on the airwaves. Nowadays, the 
station is programmed by out of town bean countin' dreckheads. At least there 
is a program on Sunday mornings (8-12) that plays some of the good older 
stuff. They have a website too: 
www.kshe95.com  
 As far as Tomita goes, I was always impressed with some of the sounds he 
came up with for his music. Like the bass bell on "The Sunken Cathedral" from 
the Snowflakes disc. That and the other bell sounds from the disc are really 
great. does anyone know if he used the Bode ring modulator for them? Seems to 
me he also used outboard effects to get some many of his sounds. I wonder how 
many people nowadays can appreciate the effort he took to record his albums? 
I never get tired of listening to them.

Dave



From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Thu Sep  7 03:02:12 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:02:12 -0700 
Subject: Tomita and Tarbel
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A40@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

FYI there are encoded passages on both "sides" of the CD and album.

Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com





From efm3 at mediaone.net  Thu Sep  7 04:18:34 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:18:34 -0700
Subject: Junction Noise
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A33@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c01871$ef4ac640$0200a8c0@pc102>

Nope. Good noise is hard to come by.

Tom

> Does it ever bug anyone that we are discussing the vageries of *noise* quality?





From mcphive at corrupt.net  Thu Sep  7 05:52:27 2000
From: mcphive at corrupt.net (andy)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FS: Misc. Odds & Ends
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009062346490.20282-100000@washington.corrupt.net>


	Some odds and ends for sale here... prices are prepay and don't
include shipping via USPS Priority Mail; refs available upon request.

	* (2) Roland M-16C memory cartridges. In full working order,
tested with my JX-8P. I have one original box, poly bag, and instruction
manual to go with the cartridges. $30 each, or buy both for $50. If you
have a JX-8p, I'll put some patches on them before sending.

	* DOD Noise Gate 230. One big knob for adjusting threshold, 1/4"
input, and 1/4" and XLR outputs. Heavy-duty 70's-style DOD pedal, takes 9v
battery or std. DOD pedal power. $25

	* Delta power supply. Heavy-duty mother with toroids, caps,
selectable 115V/230V power, and +5V, +12V, -12V outputs at up to 3.5A.
$15, pics available at:

	http://supa.corrupt.net/dnd/delta-ps.jpg
	http://supa.corrupt.net/dnd/delta-ps2.jpg


	If you're interested, feel free to ask questions; no takers and
these go you-know-where.

	thanks,
	andy




From diode at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 06:18:31 2000
From: diode at hotmail.com (danial stocks)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 04:18:31 GMT
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <LAW-F206DKvPEkGhAj500008eea@hotmail.com>

With another PRN
>serving
>as a modulation source, the variations will not be unlimited either. You
>will
>get some repetition as well - only much later. It would surely be an
>improovement
>compared with one single PRN.
>The big question is, will this improovement be better than simply investing
>the additional PRN in an increased length of the first one, rather than
>splitting in
>two PRNs and finding an optimal modulation algorithm ?
>What if for a certain number of flipflops the linear arrangement of all
>flipflops
>*is* the best algorithm ?
>(I cannot answer this.)
>
Maybe you could use some of the single PRN output to modulate itself ie 
modulate a vco clocking it?
Cheers,
Dan
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From Stephen_Gray at blick.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 09:35:39 2000
From: Stephen_Gray at blick.co.uk (Stephen_Gray at blick.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:35:39 +0100
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <OF7C91E734.0E9ECA5E-ON80256953.002906FA@blick.co.uk>

If I am going to go into this DIY synth malarky I have a few questions
about equipment.  I presume I will need an oscilliscope and frequency
counter.  Are there any other peices of vital equipment ?  About how much
would a second-hand midi control keyboard cost ?  I am on a budget and
realise I will never be able to build that sooper dooper modular I dreamed
about but I think I would be able to build something so depending on
equipment cost would like to give it a go.

Steve Gray






From czech at Micronas.Com  Thu Sep  7 10:40:41 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:40:41 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <200009070840.KAA08839@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::Maybe you could use some of the single PRN output to modulate itself ie 
:::modulate a vco clocking it?
:::Cheers,
:::Dan

Yes, I think this was the original meaning of the proposal of
having two PRN. This means frequency/phase modulation of a very
complex waveform. Things get mathematically very ugly...

Nevertheless, our microcontrollers actually use a PRN source to
jitter their CLOCK, thus smearing the spectral distribution
of the clock partials which otherwise would annoy people
when listening to their radio etc.

The proposal of using analog "kick" noise for the PRN
is basically the same, a kick will mean a sudden phase 
jump or leap.

m.c.




From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 10:49:11 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:49:11 +0100
Subject: Tools needed.
References: <OF7C91E734.0E9ECA5E-ON80256953.002906FA@blick.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00ff01c018a8$d1235560$1236883e@default>

>I presume I will need an oscilliscope and frequency counter.

Although a scope is handy, it is not completely essential. I built a 8
voice polyphonic synth without the use of a scope. I did it with a Tandy
DVM and a probe attached to a hifi amp to listen by ear to all the DC
thumps and audio weazes. But a scope helps a lot for sure, I never knew
that my one of my CV buffers was oscilating at 2MHz. What I would like
is an audio output to my scope... older types used to have a y output,
but not mine.

Frequency counter... never had one here. Although I used to use them a
lot at work. I prefer a good chromatic tuner. Korg make some brilliant
models, and actually more use for tuning V/oct scales etc.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From czech at Micronas.Com  Thu Sep  7 10:58:28 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:58:28 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <200009070858.KAA08883@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::Could someone give some general rules for "transversal" filters?
:::If I am using the term correctly?
:::
:::This occurs in tapped binary shift registers where multiple taps are summed
:::to get a multi-level output voltage.
:::
:::This also has frequency selective effects related to the number of taps,
:::the tap weights and clocking frequency?

Yes. Especially the later is interesting, it means Fc control via
clock frequency.

:::So it is a FIR filter? Short of going and buying some books on DSP, are
:::there any useful rules of thumb, or handy references?

This is a FIR filter, but a very special one, with fixed levels "1" and
"0". But we could assume that we have a linear tapped delay line
and a strange input signal of "1" and "0" instead. So normal
FIR theory applies.


Book: Rabiner & Gold. the holy bible of DSP.

In "Art of Electronics" a nice 32 tap design is shown.
The basic idea is that the tap weights are really the impulse response
of the filter, and this is related to the frequency response via 
Monsieur Fourier's theory.

The problem with FIR filters is that we only obtain zeros.
That means: we need quite a lot of zeros to keep the response down
in the stop band(s), i.e. filter length is usually > 64 or 128
or so. OTOH FIR filters have wonderfull properties, eg. phase
linearity. All partials traveling through such a filter will arrive at
the same time.
And: there are optimal filters, ie. a theory that prooves that no other
FIR filter with given length will fit better to a given spec
in some sense.

I've toyed arround with such filter optimisation software
(Remez exchange algorithm).
If you want, I could easily compute some impulse responses/
frequency responses.
If think low pass and band pass are especially usefull.

Even if we have no shift register feedback at all, sampling
analog noise and filtering it could still be usefull.
This time alias and qunatisation noise is very much wellcome!

m.c.





From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 12:04:38 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:04:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <20000907100438.14643.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com>

Tony's right, a digital voltmeter is about all you
need. That bit gear is essential. Oscopes are fun
though to watch wave forms! They are also even more
fun to watch your wave forms after repairing a dead
circuit, so in a way I guess an Oscope might be needed
too. Once you get used to doing this stuff, you take
it for granted that everything will work (quickly).
I've got an old Tektronix? scope I can lay my hands on
for you but you pay the postage etc...
Ken McBeth

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From blacet at monitor.net  Thu Sep  7 13:33:27 2000
From: blacet at monitor.net (John E Blacet)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:33:27 +0000
Subject: Tools needed.
References: <OF7C91E734.0E9ECA5E-ON80256953.002906FA@blick.co.uk> <39B79D20.E8EF8BC@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39B77D07.5002@monitor.net>

I notice that Radio Shack has a 20 MHz dual trace scope special for
$249. This seems very inexpensive!

Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From blacet at monitor.net  Thu Sep  7 13:40:53 2000
From: blacet at monitor.net (John E Blacet)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:40:53 +0000
Subject: Transisters in schematics
References: <002d01c018e1$ea8707c0$79c809c0@gpcompanies.com> <200009071614.SAA01321@dilbert.scp.de>
Message-ID: <39B77E9B.2893@monitor.net>

I way to remember PNP vs NPN by which way the emitter arrow is pointing:

Not Pointing iN = NPN
Pointing iN = PNP


Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep  7 15:50:24 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 06:50:24 -0700
Subject: Tools needed.
References: <OF7C91E734.0E9ECA5E-ON80256953.002906FA@blick.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39B79D20.E8EF8BC@silcom.com>

    Probably more important than a frequency counter is a DVM (digital volt
meter), preferably a 4 1/2 digit meter.  A good DVM is critical for
calibrating your VCO's.

    Another thing that I feel is important is a good soldering iron.
Something that is temperature controlled sure makes it a lot more pleasent
assembling those circuits.

    -Jim


Stephen_Gray at blick.co.uk wrote:

> If I am going to go into this DIY synth malarky I have a few questions
> about equipment.  I presume I will need an oscilliscope and frequency
> counter.  Are there any other peices of vital equipment ?  About how much
> would a second-hand midi control keyboard cost ?  I am on a budget and
> realise I will never be able to build that sooper dooper modular I dreamed
> about but I think I would be able to build something so depending on
> equipment cost would like to give it a go.
>
> Steve Gray




From jorgen.bergfors at idg.se  Thu Sep  7 16:12:52 2000
From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se (jorgen.bergfors at idg.se)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:12:52 +0200
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <TFSLMZLC@idg.se>

>  Probably more important than a frequency counter is a DVM (digital volt
meter), preferably a 4 1/2 digit meter.  A good DVM is critical for
calibrating your VCO's.

I second that. Mine has a frequency counter mode too, by the way

/Jorgen



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Thu Sep  7 16:42:33 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:42:33 +0100 
Subject: hippies!
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C59@LON-MAIL07>

> Another group that really inspired me (and still does)
> is Gong. The triology and Hillage's solo albums were
> probably what most converted me from traditional 
> guitarist to "noise explorer" :-)
> 
> 
those three gong albums are seminal. the band isn't the same now, obviously,
but theirs is still an interesting take on the whole business of expression
through music; the "collective" principle, the shifting line-ups, the
on-stage synergy amongst a large number of apparently-stoned, improvising
musicians, all things I admired about the contemporaneous hawkwind line-up
(i.e. before they sacked the lemster).
because of these people, I became a dedicated noise-explorer, only later
bothering myself with boring old traditional instruments...........

we saw tim "moonweed" blake at the alfa festival last year in huizen, nl. it
was one of the funniest and glorious gigs I've ever been at, tho' the
"scenesters" weren't quite so impressed with his late arrival on stage and
his slightly incoherent ramblings in between numbers. he was a stoned hero
to us. he was also magnificent at the '92 UK electronica in london. "crystal
machine" probably hasn't dated well, but who cares? bits of it cropped up
during his brief stint with hawkwind (on "live '79")- he left that line-up
the night before we saw them in newcastle, so we were treated to the sight
(& sound) of a roadie at tim's minimoog and vcs3.
"so take a fix on light-house....."

d.



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From gerryd at ntx-tech.com  Thu Sep  7 17:39:43 2000
From: gerryd at ntx-tech.com (Gerry Dahl)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:39:43 -0500
Subject: Transisters in schematics
Message-ID: <002d01c018e1$ea8707c0$79c809c0@gpcompanies.com>

Hi Everyone,
I've been haveing trouble with Transisters in schematics. I have provided a picture
of an NPN and a PNP transister with what I believe to be the correct pin
assignment. Please correct me if I am wrong. Also which is which, is the 
arrow pointing in a PNP or NPN?


Thanks for the clear up.

Thanks.
Gerry Dahl


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From diode at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 17:56:05 2000
From: diode at hotmail.com (danial stocks)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 15:56:05 GMT
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <LAW-F108nGiAw8HQEUE00001e19@hotmail.com>

  A good DVM is critical for
>calibrating your VCO's.
>
Yep, Also good temp controlled soldering iron, I reckon a temp con 50 
watter.. the 25 - 30 watt is not really good for heavy ground planes etc, 
takes a while to heat stuff up, and very hard to useless for getting parts 
off double sided boards..
Also I think a o-scope fairly essential.. OK if building circuit from kits 
or books etc, or circuit you know well, but charging off into the uncharted 
undergrowth on a new design idea it certainly makes things a lot quicker..
Cheers,
Dan

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From chris at scp.de  Thu Sep  7 18:14:33 2000
From: chris at scp.de (Christian Hofmann)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:14:33 +0200
Subject: Transisters in schematics
In-Reply-To: <002d01c018e1$ea8707c0$79c809c0@gpcompanies.com>
References: <002d01c018e1$ea8707c0$79c809c0@gpcompanies.com>
Message-ID: <200009071614.SAA01321@dilbert.scp.de>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:39:43 -0500
"Gerry Dahl" <gerryd at ntx-tech.com> wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
> I've been haveing trouble with Transisters in schematics. I have provided a
> picture
> of an NPN and a PNP transister with what I believe to be the correct pin
> assignment. Please correct me if I am wrong. Also which is which, is the 
> arrow pointing in a PNP or NPN?


Hi Gerry,
although I tend to confuse them once in a while, I think this is correct:

PNP = arrow in
NPN = arrow out

AND: arrow pin is _always_ emitter (that's wrong on the left one in the
JPG)

regards
Christian



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Thu Sep  7 18:23:02 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:23:02 +0100 
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C63@LON-MAIL07>

well, I've decided to install a short-wave radio in my rogues instead of the
crappy digital noise. and maybe next time we play at jodrell bank, I'll talk
to one of the astronomers about hooking the big wok straight into the
phattytron's filter........

d.

> ----------
> From: 	tomg[SMTP:efm3 at mediaone.net]
> Sent: 	07 September 2000 03:18
> To: 	Tim Ressel; synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: 	Re: Junction Noise
> 
> Nope. Good noise is hard to come by.
> 
> Tom
> 
> > Does it ever bug anyone that we are discussing the vageries of *noise*
> quality?
> 
> 


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From mclilith at ezwv.com  Thu Sep  7 18:36:54 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:36:54 -0400
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <4.1.20000907123605.009510b0@mail.ezwv.com>

At 03:35 AM 09/07/2000 , Steve Gray wrote:

>If I am going to go into this DIY synth malarky I have a few questions
>about equipment.  I presume I will need an oscilliscope and frequency
>counter. 

The oscilloscope will be very useful for testing and repairing, but you
might be able to live without a frequency counter. I've been an electronics
technician, specializing in keyboards  for nearly 15 years, and I've never
had to use one yet. On the other hand, a good tuner is very important. I
even use the audio output from a quartz tuner (when it's placed in
reference-tone generator mode), to trigger the sweep on my oscilloscope.
Then, I can "look" at a waveform and tune it without having to hear it.
It's also possible to set up a nice X-Y pattern, using the two signals ran
into separate input channels of the scope, and tune that way. 

(One small note about the triggered sweep tuning technique. It is also
possible to accidently tune a note to a ratio other than 1:1, with respect
to the reference signal, such as 2:3.  If you are not listening to the
audio, this technique is only practical when the note is fairly close to
proper pitch already, and you merely want to "touch it up." The X-Y
technique doesn't suffer from this limitation, and can display the actual
pitch ratio, as well as showing whether the note is in tune. For both
techniques, a condition of "in tune" is indicated by a totally stationary
waveform display. Any rolling or movement indicates a frequency difference.)



> Are there any other peices of vital equipment ?  

Of course a variety of good hand tools come to mind, but I guess you
already know that. 

I would emphasize buying a good soldering iron with interchangeable tips
and heating elements, and not a cheap unit. (Whatever you do, DO NOT use
one of those pistol-shaped, instant-on, high-wattage soldering guns to
assemble delicate synth circuitry! Not only do these get too hot for the
circuitry, but they also have a nasty habit of killing delicate parts
through an electrical field they generate.) Temperature control on the iron
would be nice, but I've managed to live without it so far. Make sure your
iron has a grounded cord, for ESD protection. (For that matter, buy the
anti-ESD version of any tool, when you have a choice. Even my solder sucker
is anti-ESD.) 

Now that I mention it, look into ESD protection. Get at least an anti-ESD
wrist strap, and use it according to the directions. An anti-ESD protective
mat to use on your workbench, and another on the floor, would also be nice,
but there are ways to live without these, especially if you are just
starting out and are on a tight budget. (These large mats can be expensive.)

Don't forget to use some sort of smoke extraction technique while
soldering. Special soldering irons can be bought that automatically suck
solder and flux fumes into a hose and trap the smoke in a special filter.
These are expensive and are meant for production work. I would at least use
a small fan on my workbench to keep the fumes from going straight up my
nose. It is also possible to buy small fans that have special filters,
which will trap the smoke in the filter. This might be affordable for you.
Of course the whole point of this is to prevent you from repeatedly
inhaling lead or flux particles, both of which can be toxic, especially
over a long period of time.

A good, accurate,  digital multimeter should definitely be among your test
equipment. I would only buy specialty meters such as  digital capacitance,
or digital LCR meters, if I found myself actually needing them regularly. I
wouldn't worry about them for now, but they can be useful if you are custom
building certain types of analog circuitry and want to precision match your
components.

A signal generator of some sort would be a good idea. This could even be a
simple battery-powered home made oscillator circuit. You probably don't
need to get one of those expensive function generators.

Speaking of home built gear, do a search on the internet for pages that
tell you how to build some of your own basic test gear. Simple items like a
basic signal generator, or a simple power supply can be easily built
instead of purchased. Anything that makes high-precision measurements, like
a digital multimeter, should be purchased rather than built - unless you
are sure you have an accurate way to calibrate the device yourself.

Last, but not least, don't underestimate the benefits of good lighting,
when assembling or repairing circuitry. You'd be surprised how easy it is
to make tragic mistakes in poor lighting.

(I hope this wasn't too much information.)



>About how much would a second-hand midi control keyboard cost ? 

Depending on your personal needs and tastes, it could be anywhere from
free, to thousands of dollars.  :)

I was given a broken synth once, and the unit still transmitted MIDI info,
even though it's own sounds were dead. So, I ended up with a free MIDI
controller. (That is, until I repaired the keyboard. Now, I have an
inexpensive synth.)


Later,

Glen 



From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 18:50:12 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:50:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: triumvirat
Message-ID: <20000907165012.10674.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com>

Another pretty interesting lot from Germany were
Triumvirat, I had a few of there albums when they
first appeared in the record shops! This ELP like
outfit coined the term Krautrock in the UK, they had
virtuouso keyboard playing (piano/moog/C3), This was
1973 and there first and best album was called
Illusions on a Double Dimple. Stay tuned for more
obscurities....
Hillage was pretty good to, but I prefered his own
work than with the teacosy brigade, Gong!

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From ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil  Thu Sep  7 19:07:37 2000
From: ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil (Jules Ryckebusch)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 10:07:37 -0700
Subject: Transisters in schematics
References: <002d01c018e1$ea8707c0$79c809c0@gpcompanies.com>
Message-ID: <39B7CB59.174B3CC8@ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil>

Use the good old Navy nemonic NPN "Not Pointing iN"

Jules

Gerry Dahl wrote:

> Hi Everyone,I've been haveing trouble with Transisters in schematics.
> I have provided a pictureof an NPN and a PNP transister with what I
> believe to be the correct pinassignment. Please correct me if I am
> wrong. Also which is which, is thearrow pointing in a PNP or
> NPN?  Thanks for the clear up. Thanks.Gerry Dahl
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From Synthmanic at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 19:10:08 2000
From: Synthmanic at aol.com (Synthmanic at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:10:08 EDT
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <27.aa464c4.26e925f0@aol.com>

You might try here for suggestions:

http://www.synthtech.com/tutor/tutor1.html

Dave



From RobertD at concur.com  Thu Sep  7 19:12:23 2000
From: RobertD at concur.com (Robert Donker)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:12:23 -0700 
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <4BEBBAC806C0D311BBAD009027B8D45702A52A98@gemini.xpense.com>

I would push the scope idea, doesn't have to be a great one. You can often
pickup older 30 MHz dual trace scopes for very little. It's extremely useful
to see a wave when your building new stuff, and some require this for
calibrating wave shapes.



> >A good DVM is critical for

> >calibrating your VCO's.

> >

> Yep, Also good temp controlled soldering iron, I reckon a temp con 50 

> watter.. the 25 - 30 watt is not really good for heavy ground 

> planes etc, 

> takes a while to heat stuff up, and very hard to useless for 

> getting parts 

> off double sided boards..

> Also I think a o-scope fairly essential.. OK if building 

> circuit from kits 

> or books etc, or circuit you know well, but charging off into 

> the uncharted 

> undergrowth on a new design idea it certainly makes things a 

> lot quicker..

> Cheers,

> Dan

> 

> ______________________________________________________________

> ___________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 

http://www.hotmail.com.



Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 

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From grichter at execpc.com  Thu Sep  7 19:22:48 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:22:48 -0500
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <200009071723.e87HNJx80634@pop0.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

I was thinking in particular about the effect of the equal valued and binary
weighted summing resistors in the Buchla 266 "Source of Uncertainty".
The schematics are on my page at http://www.musicsynthesizer.com
(Grant Richter)

I am currently working on a new 1200 series module, based on the quantized
voltage source in the 266. I was trying to figure a way to extend into an
audio processor. One obvious improvement is to force all quantized steps to
83 mv (semitone) values so the module outputs calibrated 1v/oct scales.

My idea was to switch off the XOR feedback and use the shift register as a
transversal filter. Once again, probably easier to just try it than figure
it out mathematically.

BTW I put up a preliminary manual for the Joy Rider filter at
http://www.wiard.com

I still have seven filters left.

Best,

Grant

----------
>From: Martin Czech <czech at Micronas.Com>
>To: grichter at execpc.com
>Cc: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: Re: Junction Noise
>Date: Thu, Sep 7, 2000, 3:58 AM
>

>
> :::Could someone give some general rules for "transversal" filters?
> :::If I am using the term correctly?
> :::
> :::This occurs in tapped binary shift registers where multiple taps are summed
> :::to get a multi-level output voltage.
> :::
> :::This also has frequency selective effects related to the number of taps,
> :::the tap weights and clocking frequency?
>
> Yes. Especially the later is interesting, it means Fc control via
> clock frequency.
>
> :::So it is a FIR filter? Short of going and buying some books on DSP, are
> :::there any useful rules of thumb, or handy references?
>
> This is a FIR filter, but a very special one, with fixed levels "1" and
> "0". But we could assume that we have a linear tapped delay line
> and a strange input signal of "1" and "0" instead. So normal
> FIR theory applies.
>
>
> Book: Rabiner & Gold. the holy bible of DSP.
>
> In "Art of Electronics" a nice 32 tap design is shown.
> The basic idea is that the tap weights are really the impulse response
> of the filter, and this is related to the frequency response via
> Monsieur Fourier's theory.
>
> The problem with FIR filters is that we only obtain zeros.
> That means: we need quite a lot of zeros to keep the response down
> in the stop band(s), i.e. filter length is usually > 64 or 128
> or so. OTOH FIR filters have wonderfull properties, eg. phase
> linearity. All partials traveling through such a filter will arrive at
> the same time.
> And: there are optimal filters, ie. a theory that prooves that no other
> FIR filter with given length will fit better to a given spec
> in some sense.
>
> I've toyed arround with such filter optimisation software
> (Remez exchange algorithm).
> If you want, I could easily compute some impulse responses/
> frequency responses.
> If think low pass and band pass are especially usefull.
>
> Even if we have no shift register feedback at all, sampling
> analog noise and filtering it could still be usefull.
> This time alias and qunatisation noise is very much wellcome!
>
> m.c.
>
> 



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Thu Sep  7 19:48:27 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:48:27 +0100 
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C6D@LON-MAIL07>

good dvm is essential, and a nice soldering iron- I use a weller tcp which
actually chucks out about 50W but only if it's fitted with a hot tip (not
the sports type :-)); it can be equipped with cooler bits and the
curie-point switch does the rest.
I have a dvm that does freq and, more usefully in my view, a capacitance
function- this is useful if you're trying to match components aswell as
identify them in the first place. look for low ac ranges too- down to mV and
mA is harder to find for ac than dc.
moving-coil voltmeter is handy if you don't know what you're going to find
or for low-freq stuff.
solder sucker is essential.
pointy pliers.
proper spanners- don't use pliers!
nut-wrenches.
many, many screwdrivers, and don't get them all from one manufacturer
because they'll become a blur in y'r toolbox...... keep small hex keys and
jewellers' screwdrivers in their pouches. I have been lectured by an old
boss on the importance of using the correct cruciform screwdriver- you can
never have too many crossheads if you do any work on old equipment or
instruments, particularly if they've been gigged. a scribe or some sort of
sharp pointy thing can be a godsend when you get to that last crosshead that
won't budge and it's starting to tear up. if it's not countersunk, you can
get purchase on it's circumference using an old pair of sidecutters. replace
the screw/bolt with new afterwards, obviously.
funny looking tool for picking up small objects when a gaussed screwdriver
or one with blu-tack won't do. I have one of these things that extends three
wire hooks at 120 degrees to each other....
I use a stanley hand-drill for all but the (american synths esp.) 2-3mm
steel cases. a pcb drill can turn it's hand to all manner of polishing and
cutting jobs aswell as making tiny holes for components to sit in.
fine-point magic marker or paint pen.

the 'scope is great for seeing waveforms, and inventing new ones, but let
your ears be the final judge. some of the stuff I've seen on 'scopes has
absolutely no right to sound musical but it does.

wd40- I kid you not- it's great for cleaning things, especially that crap
they put on pcb's to "seal" them.

various lengths of flexible insulated cable with alligator clips at either
end- fab for adding components to a circuit temporarily etc.

bench power supply: current limiting, fixed 5's and 12's and +/- variables.

a little fostex or some other powered speaker that'd be easier to fix than
y'r console or hifi if a nasty noise accidentally goes through it.

I have all this and I don't even build stuff- I'm an inveterate
modifier/customiser.

d.


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The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
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From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Thu Sep  7 21:01:23 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:01:23 -0700 
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A42@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

I've had a request to do some heavy-duty analysis on the pinkfet circuit.
However I cannot find a 2SK241, except for one place that wants a $25 minimum
order. Does anyone have one these they could part with? I'm sure some deal could
be arranged.


Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Sep  7 21:05:01 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:05:01 +0200
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061939210.17709-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
References: <20000907002204J.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061939210.17709-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <20000907210501P.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: The Old Crow <oldcrow at oldcrows.net>
Subject: Re: psuedo Noise Generator
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:41:27 -0400 (EDT)

> 
> > How about this:
> > 
> > 1 + X + X^3 + X^4 + X^64 
> > 1 + X + X^63 
> 
>   So a 63-bit lfsr would have taps on 63 and 62.  OK, one PIC version
> coming right up. ;)

Yeap. You are right. It is really easy...

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Sep  7 21:07:23 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:07:23 +0200
Subject: Junction Noise
In-Reply-To: <fb.ad64a02.26e8332c@cs.com>
References: <fb.ad64a02.26e8332c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20000907210723L.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Brockr0 at cs.com
Subject: Re: Junction Noise
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:54:20 EDT

> Magnus, cfmd at swipnet.se writes:
> 
> > So similar but oh so diffrent.
> >  
> >  Are you sure you meant NOR? XOR or XNOR is more like it.
> >  
> >  
> 
> I'll get this right yet.
> 
> NAND and XOR actually, for CRC generation. Input data NANDed with last stage 
> output fed back to the first stage and XORed at the polynomial taps,except 
> they are inputs so they are not really taps... 
> 
> If you want a pseudo-random pattern generator, you don't have an input data 
> stream, so change the output NAND to NOT and feed it back to the first stage 
> and the polynomial XOR inputs. I don't know if every prime polynomial will 
> give a maximal length non-repeating string with no invalid states but I 
> believe the common communications CRC polynomials such as CRC-32 and CRC-16 
> work this way as they are chosen for this convolution  characteristic.

They have to be irreduceable also, and you need to test it specifically for
this.

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Sep  7 21:12:01 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:12:01 +0200
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009062015030.17709-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
References: <20000907002204J.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<Pine.LNX.4.10.10009062015030.17709-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <20000907211201D.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: The Old Crow <oldcrow at oldcrows.net>
Subject: Re: psuedo Noise Generator
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:21:04 -0400 (EDT)

> 
>   Have a look at:
> 
>   http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508_63.asm
> 
>   It expands the shift register to 63 bits, with taps at 62 & 63 as
> per the 1 + X + X^63 polynomial.  The only tradeoff is that the loop time
> for a bit is 4us longer, lowering the max. frequency to 17.8KHz or so.
> With a bit of tweaking, I can shrink the loop time again.  Here is the fun
> part: (from the code comments)
> 
> ;
> ;   The main loop 'taps' is 28 CPU cycles.  At the 4MHz internal clock
> ; rate, the noise output is operating at a max. rate of about 17.8KHz.
> ; It is 1 microsecond per CPU cycle, so 28us per bit output.  It takes
> ; two bits (one high, one low or vice-versa) to define the highest
> ; frequency, or a period of 56us.  The highest frequency is thus 17,857Hz.
> ; Since the LFSR will cycle through 2^63-1 states, it will take
> ; 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 iterations of the taps loop to return to the
> ; starting seed value.  At a rate of about 35,714 loops per second, it 
> ; will take a mere 8,183,588 YEARS to repeat.
> ;
> 
>   I think I got that right... ;)

Well, this is my point. Why try to search in vain for an old chip that goes
kashunk, kashunk, kashunk when you fairly cheaply could make a curcuit which
will not loop in anything near the better parts of onces life... overdoing it
is very cheap after all. For most purposes up to 40 bits should be WELL than
enougth, beyond that I don't know if it worth the effort, but it is really
simple there too.

Cheers,
Magnus




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Thu Sep  7 21:55:16 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:55:16 -0700 
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A20@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>




>I presume I will need an oscilliscope and frequency counter.

I have an ancient TSI frequency counter that has Nixie tubes for the
display.
I gotta say, you can see those nixies from a mile away!
It has both Frequency and period functions. I dont quite get how to use the
period function.
Anyone?

I have a pic of the freq counter in action if anyone is interested in seeing
it.

Rory M.





From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep  7 22:06:42 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 13:06:42 -0700
Subject: Noise Generator
Message-ID: <39B7F552.B2D6A065@silcom.com>


    Ok, I hope I am going to type in these url's correctly but here
goes:

    http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/noise/noise.pdf

    schematic of noise generator in pdf format

    http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/noise/noise.sch

    Xilinx Foundation v2.1 shcematic of the noise generator.  This is
for anybody who has Foundation and want to mode the thing (break a leg).

    http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/noise/noise.jed

    JEDEC file for burning an XC9536 in a 44 pin pld

    -Jim





From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep  7 22:14:30 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 13:14:30 -0700
Subject: Noise Followup....
Message-ID: <39B7F726.BD3078C2@silcom.com>

    You might also need this file:

    http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/noise/noise.rpt

    It has the pinout of the device, among other things.

    -Jim





From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Thu Sep  7 23:15:48 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:15:48 -0600
Subject: Junction Noise
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A42@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <003801c01910$cdfb6630$1655143f@Studio1>

I'm curious about this, too. Does it really have to be that particular
device, or is this maybe a more general property? It might be worth trying
whatever is lying around. You can record the noise into CoolEdit and
anallyze it there very quickly.

  Ian


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Ressel" <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: Junction Noise


> I've had a request to do some heavy-duty analysis on the pinkfet circuit.
> However I cannot find a 2SK241, except for one place that wants a $25
minimum
> order. Does anyone have one these they could part with? I'm sure some deal
could
> be arranged.
>
>
> Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
> Hewlett-Packard
> Verifone Division
> 3755 Atherton Rd.
> Rocklin, Cal
> 916-630-2541
> timothy_ressel at hp.com
>
>




From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Thu Sep  7 23:22:36 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:22:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
In-Reply-To: <20000907210501P.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009071718210.19230-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


  Now find a version I made to accept a "noise clock" on an input pin of
the PIC.  Note that this lowers the max. frequency a bit, but at this
point I would start using faster PIC clock speeds anyway.

  http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508_clk.asm

Crow

/**/




From dougt at cancerboard.ab.ca  Thu Sep  7 23:58:36 2000
From: dougt at cancerboard.ab.ca (Doug Tymofichuk)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:58:36 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time)
Subject: Free stuff!
Message-ID: <39b80d67.3a7f.0@telusplanet.net>

________________________
The Electronic Peasant
www.electronicpeasant.com
****** Forwarded Message Follows *******

Hello, all!

I have a set of four motor control pcbs surplus if anyone 
is interested. Pulled fully functioning from IBM PC's, 
ISA bus cards. They each have 27 HCTL-1100 motor control 
chips in sockets, a smattering of TTL chips, and a few 
other parts. Data on the chips can be found at:

http://www.semiconductor.agilent.com/motion/hctl1100.html

These are free to anyone willing to pay shipping, or, 
better yet, send me something neat in return. Otherwise 
they will be thrown out.

Let me know if interested.






From RobertD at concur.com  Fri Sep  8 00:09:07 2000
From: RobertD at concur.com (Robert Donker)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:09:07 -0700 
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <4BEBBAC806C0D311BBAD009027B8D45702A52AA2@gemini.xpense.com>

FYI, looks acceptable and the price is right...



http://www.radioshack.com/ProductCatalog/ProductDetail/Index/1,2098,CTLG_7_9
105356,00.html



> I notice that Radio Shack has 

> a 20 MHz dual trace scope special for

> $249. This seems very inexpensive!

> 

> Regards.

> -------------------------

> John Blacet

> Blacet Research Music Electronics

> http://www.blacet.com

> -------------------------

> blacet at monitor.net

> -------------------------

> Are you on our mailing list?

> http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html

> 



From psnow at magma.ca  Fri Sep  8 00:38:38 2000
From: psnow at magma.ca (Peter Snow)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 18:38:38 -0400
Subject: XR2208
Message-ID: <39B818EE.C452024A@magma.ca>

Hi all,

Anyone got a spec sheet for an XR2208? (operational multiplier).

Thanks,

Peter Snow



From paul.maddox at ndirect.co.uk  Fri Sep  8 00:38:54 2000
From: paul.maddox at ndirect.co.uk (Paul Maddox)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 23:38:54 +0100
Subject: Tools needed.
References: <TFSLMZLC@idg.se>
Message-ID: <012f01c0191c$68868940$0200a8c0@paul>

Dear all,

 Rapid do a great meter, about ?26 and it has freq counter, tranny tester
and cap meter aswell as standard stuff.

  Paul


----- Original Message -----
From: <jorgen.bergfors at idg.se>
To: <patchell at silcom.com>; <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: Tools needed.


> >  Probably more important than a frequency counter is a DVM (digital volt
> meter), preferably a 4 1/2 digit meter.  A good DVM is critical for
> calibrating your VCO's.
>
> I second that. Mine has a frequency counter mode too, by the way
>
> /Jorgen
>




From houshu at dsp.cl.nec.co.jp  Fri Sep  8 03:35:19 2000
From: houshu at dsp.cl.nec.co.jp (Osamu Hoshuyama)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 10:35:19 +0900
Subject: Junction Noise 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:01:23 MST."
             <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A42@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <200009080135.KAA20438@luke.dsp.cl.nec.co.jp>

Hello Tim,

> Date:    Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:01:23 MST
> From:    Tim Ressel <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>
> 
> I've had a request to do some heavy-duty analysis on the pinkfet circuit.
> However I cannot find a 2SK241, except for one place that wants a $25 minimum
> order. Does anyone have one these they could part with? I'm sure some deal coul
> d
> be arranged.

2SK241 is one of the cheapest MOS FETs in Japan.
I myself have never tried the circuit. But, I guess in the first test,
any depletion type MOS FET will be OK.  (Do NOT use enhancement type.)

Mr. Kasahara who presented the circuit says in the page (Sorry for my
poor translation):
  I'm interested in noises.  I obtained good results from a circuit.
  So, I report it.  I used a MOS FET, which is (generally) said
  to generate more 1/f noise than bipoler Tr.  I measured the output
  signal using the FFT analizer of my school/univ.  The noise voltage
  divided by the gain of opamp (100) is shown in the figure bellow.
  ......(snip) 

Hope this helps.
- -- ---- ----------- --- --- - ----- -- --- --- - - ------ - - - --
 Osamu HOSHUYAMA          Digital Signal Processing Technology Group
                    C&C Media Research Laboratories, NEC Corporation
               Email: houshu at ccm.CL.nec.co.jp,  Fax: +81-44-856-2232
--------------------------------------------------------------------



From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Fri Sep  8 04:03:23 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (terry michaels)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:03:23 -0400
Subject: triumvirat
Message-ID: <200009072203_MC2-B294-39D7@compuserve.com>

Message text written by Ken?MacBeth
>Another pretty interesting lot from Germany were
Triumvirat, I had a few of there albums when they
first appeared in the record shops! This ELP like
outfit coined the term Krautrock in the UK, they had
virtuouso keyboard playing (piano/moog/C3), This was
1973 and there first and best album was called
Illusions on a Double Dimple. Stay tuned for more
obscurities....<

I have a similar story to that of Mike Granger and his meeting Rick
Wakeman.

During the early '70s Keith Emerson was my idol, I spent countless hours at
the piano and organ learning various parts of the ELP albums.  I bought the
Illusions on a Double Dimple album mainly because it was a similar type of
music to that of ELP, it turned out to be a good album, and I learned to
play quite a lot of it also.  During this time I ran the service shop at
one of the largest music stores in Milwaukee, and it wasn't unusual to end
up working on equipment belonging to groups on tour when they came through
Milwaukee.

Triumvirat came to Milwaukee to play a show sometime in 1973.  They had
been here a few months earlier and performed a show, which I had gone to
see.  This time, I got a phone call from a stagehand at the hall they were
playing at, he said the keyboard  player was having a problem with his
Hammond C3, could I come down and take a look at it?  I grabbed some tools
and headed down to the hall, thinking I would be able to communicate with
the bass player at least, as he sang on the album (in English), and I
didn't know much German.  It turned out he was the only member of the group
who didn't speak English, the other two members spoke English and taught
all the lyrics to him phonetically, and the bass player sang them in
English without really knowing what they meant.

I met up with Jurgen Fritz, the keyboard player, he described the problem
with his Hammond, I was pretty sure right away what the cause was, we
walked out on stage and I took a look inside and I confimed the diagnosis. 
This was not too many minutes before they were to go on, people were
finding their seats etc, so there wasn't enough time to perform the repair
right then, so I told the keyboard technician for the group exactly what he
needed to do to fix the problem after the show, and left.

The next day, Jurgen called me at the music store I worked at, and he ended
up coming down to look at equipment in the store, and chat. It was a
Saturday afternoon, and he showed up shortly before the store closed, he
had some time to kill, so I suggested going over to the house where my band
rehearsed, and I had my equipment set up.  So we both went over there, he
played my home built synth, along with my C3, and electric piano.  I
clearly remember him playing riffs which ended up on their next album,
Spartacus. We spent several hours playing various other stuff, Jurgen was a
really nice guy, down to earth, no rock star trip attitude.

Terry Michaels




From patchell at silcom.com  Fri Sep  8 04:24:53 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:24:53 -0700
Subject: XR2208
References: <39B818EE.C452024A@magma.ca>
Message-ID: <39B84DF5.2170B29C@silcom.com>

    Yes, I think I do.  Is there anything you might want to know in
particular?  Here are the pinouts (this probably won't help you much)

1    Multipier Out
2    Multiplier Out
3    X input
4    Common
5    Y Input
6    Y Gain
7    Y Gain
8    X Gain
9    X Gain
10    V-
11 Op Amp Outut
12 Op Amp Compensation
13 Op Amp Input +
14 Op Amp Input -
15 High Freq Output (buffered version of pin 1)
16 V+

    Now, take these with a grain of salt.  My copy is not very good, and
niether are my eyes.

Peter Snow wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Anyone got a spec sheet for an XR2208? (operational multiplier).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter Snow

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From epeasant at telusplanet.net  Fri Sep  8 05:27:14 2000
From: epeasant at telusplanet.net (The Peasant)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:27:14 -0600
Subject: triumvirat
In-Reply-To: <200009072203_MC2-B294-39D7@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBIDADCDLLBEKBCCAOGEHJCBAA.epeasant@telusplanet.net>




>> This was
>> 1973 and there first and best album was called
>> Illusions on a Double Dimple.


>  I
> clearly remember him playing riffs which ended up on their next album,
> Spartacus.

I have always preferred Spartacus myself. I used to set a timer on my stereo
to wake me up to it every morning.
______________________
The Electronic Peasant

www.electronicpeasant.com




From synth1 at airmail.net  Fri Sep  8 05:36:14 2000
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:36:14 -0500
Subject: triumvirat
References: <NEBBIDADCDLLBEKBCCAOGEHJCBAA.epeasant@telusplanet.net>
Message-ID: <000f01c01945$f10ef120$023f240a@airmail.net>

And don't forget, they made Rolling Stone's list of "Worst Albums Ever Made"
with 'Pompeii'.
I tend to agree.

But "Illusions..." is a great listen.

Paul S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "The Peasant" <epeasant at telusplanet.net>
To: "Synth-DIY" <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: RE: triumvirat


>
>
>
> >> This was
> >> 1973 and there first and best album was called
> >> Illusions on a Double Dimple.
>
>
> >  I
> > clearly remember him playing riffs which ended up on their next album,
> > Spartacus.
>
> I have always preferred Spartacus myself. I used to set a timer on my
stereo
> to wake me up to it every morning.
> ______________________
> The Electronic Peasant
>
> www.electronicpeasant.com
>




From psnow at magma.ca  Fri Sep  8 05:41:10 2000
From: psnow at magma.ca (Peter Snow)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 23:41:10 -0400
Subject: XR2208
References: <39B818EE.C452024A@magma.ca> <39B84DF5.2170B29C@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39B85FD6.86FDDA09@magma.ca>

Jim, 

Thanks, that's a start.
There's nothing I need to know in particular, unless someone out there has a killer
circuit for it.
To tell the truth, I can't remember why I bought the chip in the first place - I must have
had something in mind!

I was also looking at the XR2206 and XR2207 VCO chips (the specs for those *are* up on the
EXAR web site).
I bought 6 of the XR2207 chips a few years ago with the intention of building a guitar
synth but never got any further with the idea.  I was wondering if anyone had used either
of these for synth related work - in particular as a stable VCO?

Thanks,

Peter


patchell wrote:
> 
>     Yes, I think I do.  Is there anything you might want to know in
> particular?  Here are the pinouts (this probably won't help you much)
> 
> 1    Multipier Out
> 2    Multiplier Out
> 3    X input
> 4    Common
> 5    Y Input
> 6    Y Gain
> 7    Y Gain
> 8    X Gain
> 9    X Gain
> 10    V-
> 11 Op Amp Outut
> 12 Op Amp Compensation
> 13 Op Amp Input +
> 14 Op Amp Input -
> 15 High Freq Output (buffered version of pin 1)
> 16 V+
> 
>     Now, take these with a grain of salt.  My copy is not very good, and
> niether are my eyes.
> 
> Peter Snow wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Anyone got a spec sheet for an XR2208? (operational multiplier).
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Peter Snow
> 
> --
>  -Jim
> ------------------------------------------------
> * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> *-----------------------------------------------
> *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> * You didn't pay enough!
> ------------------------------------------------



From jorgen.bergfors at idg.se  Fri Sep  8 07:59:02 2000
From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se (jorgen.bergfors at idg.se)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 7:59:02 +0200
Subject: triumvirat
Message-ID: <TFSMTHFK@idg.se>

>This was
>1973 and there first and best album was called
>Illusions on a Double Dimple

I'm quite sure that "Mediterranian tales" came out before "Illusions..." I have all of their albums.
I haven't listened to them for several years, but I think "Mediterranian tales" was my favourite. It's not so derivative of ELP, like "Spartacus" for instance.

/Jorgen



From czech at Micronas.Com  Fri Sep  8 10:08:47 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:08:47 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Junction Noise
Message-ID: <200009080808.KAA11194@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::I was thinking in particular about the effect of the equal valued and binary
:::weighted summing resistors in the Buchla 266 "Source of Uncertainty".
:::The schematics are on my page at http://www.musicsynthesizer.com
:::(Grant Richter)

Equal valued resistors give gaussian amplitude distribution.
The resistor network is also a simple DAC.
This is from my head. I can not remember what binary does,
I guess another popular propability distribution.

m.c.




From czech at Micronas.Com  Fri Sep  8 10:18:13 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:18:13 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Junction Noise 
Message-ID: <200009080818.KAA11199@ikarus.intermetall.de>

MOS FET sounds reasonable. The main chagrin if you
have to do analog circuitry in CMOS (pure CMOS).
Bipolar transistors are so much quieter.

I think it has to to with the surface below the gate oxide
and gate oxide purity itself. Very high impedance, so
any dirt effect current will matter. Bipolars have conducting
junctions, so dirt currents don't really matter.
Same applies for JFETs.

Is pink noise really identical to 1/f noise?
I alsways thought pink noise was in the audio band or above
(by definition) and 1/f below -say- 10Hz.
One would be usefull for audio, the other  for DC offset
or error.

m.c.




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Fri Sep  8 10:33:37 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 01:33:37 -0700
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009071718210.19230-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <000201c01993$dc5dde00$0200a8c0@pc102>

That's what I'm talking about!! Yea Scott! This should be 
interesting.

Tom


> 
>   Now find a version I made to accept a "noise clock" on an input pin of
> the PIC.  Note that this lowers the max. frequency a bit, but at this
> point I would start using faster PIC clock speeds anyway.
> 
>   http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508_clk.asm
> 
> Crow
> 
> /**/
> 




From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Sep  8 13:02:32 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 12:02:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: triumvirat/up pompeii
Message-ID: <20000908110232.20791.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>

Indeed the "Pompeii" album was a fright, even the
sleeve was a disaster! English singer Barry Palmer
took over on that one and that saw the end of my
interest in Triumvirat, which is sad. The type of
singing involved, reminded me a lot of Ashley Holt's
style on the Wakeman stuff, ie King Arthur, almost
theatrical, over the top and somewhat bumptious...
Then there was Chicory Tip!...

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From jorgen.bergfors at idg.se  Fri Sep  8 13:34:45 2000
From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se (jorgen.bergfors at idg.se)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:34:45 +0200
Subject: triumvirat/up pompeii
Message-ID: <TFSNETER@idg.se>

Yeah, I didn't like his singing either. He took over from Helmut Koellen after "Spartacus". He appeared first on "Old love die hard".
I don't remember who sang on the first two albums (Mediterranean..., Illusions...). I don't think it was Koellen. It would suprise me if Koellen was the guy who didn't understand english. He recorded a solo album in english after he left Triumvirat.

/Jorgen





macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk on 2000-09-08 13:08:40
To:	synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl @ SMTP
cc:	 (bcc: Jorgen Bergfors/IDGSE)
Subject:	Re: triumvirat/up pompeii

Indeed the "Pompeii" album was a fright, even the
sleeve was a disaster! English singer Barry Palmer
took over on that one and that saw the end of my
interest in Triumvirat, which is sad. The type of
singing involved, reminded me a lot of Ashley Holt's
style on the Wakeman stuff, ie King Arthur, almost
theatrical, over the top and somewhat bumptious...
Then there was Chicory Tip!...

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie








From Synthmanic at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 18:53:55 2000
From: Synthmanic at aol.com (Synthmanic at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 12:53:55 EDT
Subject: Triumvirat,ELP,Synergy and Symphonic Slam
Message-ID: <7f.9694b0a.26ea73a3@aol.com>

Here's a website for Triumvirat:

http://www.triumvirat.net/

A couple for ELP too:

http://www.emersonlakepalmer.com/
http://www.brain-salad.com/

and one for Synergy:
http://www.eclipse.net/~synergy/

Anybody remember or hear of the group Symphonic Slam? The guitar player (Timo 
Laine I believe) used a 360 Systems guitar synth on their self titled album. 
As far as I know it was the only album they put out. I saw it on CD a long 
time ago and I kick myself for not buying it because it's out of print now 
and impossible to find. Good thing I was able to obtain Tomita's first five 
discs and Triumvirat's Illusions through Pompeii. Oh yeah, Saga's first disc 
is pretty good too. Oh, and UK also....

Dave



From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 20:00:31 2000
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:00:31 EDT
Subject: Triumvirat,ELP,Synergy and Symphonic Slam
Message-ID: <5e.62074c.26ea833f@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/8/00 10:07:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Synthmanic at aol.com writes:

<< Anybody remember or hear of the group Symphonic Slam? The guitar player 
(Timo 
 Laine I believe) used a 360 Systems guitar synth on their self titled album. 
 >>

I saw them perform once at the Starwood in Hollywood, California.  I think it 
was around 1975 or 1976.  The Starwood, along with the Whiskey a Go Go and 
Gazzari's, was one of LA's few successful rock nightclubs of the day (before 
the New Wave and Punk Rock movement broke the club scene wide open in the 
late '70's).  They were the opening act for Brian Auger's Oblivion Express 
that night.  They (Slam) were very, very loud and fairly boring, musically 
speaking.  They were not really what I would have called "progressive rock" - 
they were more like hard rock or heavy metal, with a lot of sawtooth wave 
power chords and overly dramatic filter sweeps instead of distorted guitar 
riffs.

However, that polyphonic 360/Oberheim guitar synth did sound (and look) 
pretty impressive.  This was before Roland had brought out the GR-300, so no 
one had ever even heard or seen anything quite like it.  He had the whole 
setup mounted in a huge rack on wheels.  You could see the custom-made 
polyphonic 360 Systems controller unit and six Oberheim SEM modules in the 
rack.  There was also a big pedal board that had all kinds of switches and 
pedals for controlling the synth.  There also may have been one of those 
Sequential Circuits Model 700 programmer units connected to it, but can't 
remember for sure.

I do remember Mr. Laine was wearing tight black leather pants that night, and 
thinking that chubby guys probably shouldn't wear tight leather pants.

I think Timo Laine lived in Fullerton, California - at least he did about 
fifteen years ago.  I think I remember him trying to sell that rig in the 
Recycler (back when it was just a local weekly ad paper).  I think his asking 
price was about $5000, which was quite a bit less than he had invested into 
it.  However, at the time, people were having difficulty getting rid of their 
Oberheim Four Voices for much more than two hundred dollars, so I doubt that 
Timo got much response on his offering.  Maybe he still has it!

Michael Bacich



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Fri Sep  8 20:17:27 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:17:27 +0100 
Subject: triumvirat/up pompeii
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4C7C@LON-MAIL07>

>>>Yeah, I didn't like his singing either. He took over from Helmut Koellen
after "Spartacus". He appeared first on "Old love die hard".
> I don't remember who sang on the first two albums (Mediterranean...,
> Illusions...). I don't think it was Koellen. It would suprise me if
> Koellen was the guy who didn't understand english. He recorded a solo
> album in english after he left Triumvirat..........<<<
> 
enough already! what we all want to know is, what was the matter with the
c3?    :-)

d.


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From Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com  Fri Sep  8 20:58:52 2000
From: Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com (Barry L Klein)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 11:58:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: multi - keyboard stand?
Message-ID: <ISSMTP.1.3(4).20000908115852.4294240547G@corp.wdc.com>


Many of you have several keyboard synths stacked above 
each other.  What do you find is the best low-cost approach
to doing this when they will be placed against a wall (like
in a retailer's demo room)?  My catalogs only show single
and dual keyboard isolated stands.


Time to get them out of the garage and back into the house!

Barry




From dafc at sinectis.com.ar  Fri Sep  8 21:33:28 2000
From: dafc at sinectis.com.ar (David Castillo)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:33:28 -0300
Subject: RV: NE555 & LM555
Message-ID: <001701c019cb$b709c460$07cbf4d8@gtx>

 Hi people!


 What's the difference between the LM555 and the NE555?

 I've bought one today for building a very simple LFO. I asked a LM and they
gave me an NE.
I know they're cheap but if I can save the effort of going to the shop to
change it would be cool :).

     Bye!






From Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu  Fri Sep  8 22:21:59 2000
From: Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu (Greg Montalbano)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:21:59 -0700
Subject: Tools needed.
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000908132159.0076966c@popserv.ucop.edu>

A-and lets not forget some of the more arcane tools that 
no workbench should be without:

--- a solder detangler (not only has this increased the 
output & efficency of my work, but it's lowered my 
blood pressure & made me nicer to my wife).

--- a digital spectroscope w/magnifier (to help distinguish,
once and for all,
VIOLET from BLACK on those damned 2% flameproofs)

--- a transparent full-face shield w/built-in ventilator 
(to prevent EVERY SINGLE RESISTOR LEAD that I clip
from flying happily into my eyes, nose & mouth)


....and so on.



From drew at pctc.com  Fri Sep  8 22:37:32 2000
From: drew at pctc.com (Drew Smith)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:37:32 -0700
Subject: PolySix Repairs
Message-ID: <39B94E0C.EEB17A45@pctc.com>


        Hey folks,

        Well, I gambled and bought that cheap PolySix from the pawnshop. 
Brought it home last night, opened it up - the battery looked fine at
first glance, but a closer look showed reasonable oxydization on the
part hidden from view.  No leakage yet!  Good find, IMHO.

        So I went down to the nearest Radio Shack on my bike and picked
up a
CR-2032 and holder, and I already had the appropriate diodes in my
drawer - I followed the instructions on Scott Rider's pages very
carefully, and now I have what appears to be a fully completed PolySix.

        But no.  It doesn't work.

        Scott's site says that if all of the program buttons are lit,
then the
problem is probably a blown CPU, and that I should mail him if this is
the case.  Well, that's the case - all the LED's are lit up.  I've
mailed him, last night, but haven't received a reply yet.  I'm *itching*
to find out how this synth feels in my setup, so I'm going to ask here,
if that's ok with everyone.

        Symptoms:

        I turn the synth on.  The LED in the "MG" section (MG == LFO, I
assume?  Modulation <something>?) flashes slowly, then speeds up until
it's on fulltime - elapsed time, about five to six seconds.

        If the machine has been off for a while, when turned on, the
LED's
marked 16, 8, 4, 2, etc - oh yes, this machine has a "Miditec" MIDI
retrofit in it, hope that's not the problem... - wait a few seconds
before all coming on at once.  I'm not sure what these buttons are
originally labeled; the retrofit kit added some nice stickers over the
original labels.  The program LED's - all eight - are alway all on.  All
other buttons with LED's are on fulltime as well.

        The arpeggiator section - the LED is working.  Twiddling the
"speed"
knob makes the light blink faster or slower appropriately.

        There is NO SOUND whatsoever, apart from a hum at full volume
that
isn't affected at all by pressing keys or twiddling knobs.

        I've still got my fingers crossed that this is just the lack of
processor, but the only reason I believe that is Scott's site.  Thought
I'd open it up to the group for discussion, as I'm antsy to get this guy
running! :)

        Any help is appreciated, thanks for your time...

        Cheers,
        - Drew.


--
Drew Smith, UNIX Network Administrator
Pacific Corporate Trust Company, Vancouver



From dslater at ix.netcom.com  Fri Sep  8 22:42:54 2000
From: dslater at ix.netcom.com (Dan Slater)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:42:54 -0700
Subject: ESD protection
References: <3.0.3.32.20000908132159.0076966c@popserv.ucop.edu>
Message-ID: <39B94F4E.581B0A65@ix.netcom.com>

Hi;

With all of the talk about workbench tools and equipment I noticed no
mention of ESD  (Electrostatic Discharge) protection. I was just curious
as to what level and types of ESD protection people use while building
or repairing analog and digital musical instruments.

Dan Slater





From psnow at magma.ca  Sat Sep  9 00:31:16 2000
From: psnow at magma.ca (Peter Snow)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:31:16 -0400
Subject: Triumvirat,ELP,Synergy and Symphonic Slam
References: <5e.62074c.26ea833f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39B968B4.F9BD44C1@magma.ca>

Michael,

How was Brian Auger on that night?  I remember him from years back in England playing with
the Brian Auger Trinity fronted by Julie Driscoll - Wheels on Fire was their big hit.  You
can still hear a reasonable rendition of that one if you catch any episode of "Absolutely
Fabulous" (perhaps on Public TV?).  BTW a few years ago my stepbrother used to manage BA
and The Oblivion Express - don't know if he still does. However, he did send me all their
CD's - nice guy!

Cheers,

Peter

WeAreAs1 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 9/8/00 10:07:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> Synthmanic at aol.com writes:
> 
> << Anybody remember or hear of the group Symphonic Slam? The guitar player
> (Timo
>  Laine I believe) used a 360 Systems guitar synth on their self titled album.
>  >>
> 
> I saw them perform once at the Starwood in Hollywood, California.  I think it
> was around 1975 or 1976.  The Starwood, along with the Whiskey a Go Go and
> Gazzari's, was one of LA's few successful rock nightclubs of the day (before
> the New Wave and Punk Rock movement broke the club scene wide open in the
> late '70's).  They were the opening act for Brian Auger's Oblivion Express
> that night.  They (Slam) were very, very loud and fairly boring, musically
> speaking.  They were not really what I would have called "progressive rock" -
> they were more like hard rock or heavy metal, with a lot of sawtooth wave
> power chords and overly dramatic filter sweeps instead of distorted guitar
> riffs.
> 
> However, that polyphonic 360/Oberheim guitar synth did sound (and look)
> pretty impressive.  This was before Roland had brought out the GR-300, so no
> one had ever even heard or seen anything quite like it.  He had the whole
> setup mounted in a huge rack on wheels.  You could see the custom-made
> polyphonic 360 Systems controller unit and six Oberheim SEM modules in the
> rack.  There was also a big pedal board that had all kinds of switches and
> pedals for controlling the synth.  There also may have been one of those
> Sequential Circuits Model 700 programmer units connected to it, but can't
> remember for sure.
> 
> I do remember Mr. Laine was wearing tight black leather pants that night, and
> thinking that chubby guys probably shouldn't wear tight leather pants.
> 
> I think Timo Laine lived in Fullerton, California - at least he did about
> fifteen years ago.  I think I remember him trying to sell that rig in the
> Recycler (back when it was just a local weekly ad paper).  I think his asking
> price was about $5000, which was quite a bit less than he had invested into
> it.  However, at the time, people were having difficulty getting rid of their
> Oberheim Four Voices for much more than two hundred dollars, so I doubt that
> Timo got much response on his offering.  Maybe he still has it!
> 
> Michael Bacich



From paul.maddox at ndirect.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 01:12:48 2000
From: paul.maddox at ndirect.co.uk (Paul Maddox)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:12:48 +0100
Subject: multi - keyboard stand?
References: <ISSMTP.1.3(4).20000908115852.4294240547G@corp.wdc.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c019ea$4fcab420$0200a8c0@paul>

Barry,

Recently I had the good fortue to have a PPG PRK, Wave 2.2 , wave 2.3,
waveterm, waldorf wave and Tr909...

not a stand in sight... bits of old shelf and out of date electronics
mags/phone books
did the trick just fine!



>
> Many of you have several keyboard synths stacked above
> each other.  What do you find is the best low-cost approach
> to doing this when they will be placed against a wall (like
> in a retailer's demo room)?  My catalogs only show single
> and dual keyboard isolated stands.
>

Get some of thos eheavy duty shelf things (you know with the slots)
use 4 or five and they should hold a few synths..

Paul
(why buy it if you can build it?)





From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Sat Sep  9 01:32:00 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:32:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PolySix Repairs
In-Reply-To: <39B94E0C.EEB17A45@pctc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009081853050.22312-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, Drew Smith wrote:

>         Scott's site says that if all of the program buttons are lit,
> then the problem is probably a blown CPU, and that I should mail him
> if this is the case.  Well, that's the case - all the LED's are lit
> up.  I've mailed him, last night, but haven't received a reply yet.  
> I'm *itching* to find out how this synth feels in my setup, so I'm
> going to ask here, if that's ok with everyone.

  The first thing to look for is bad IC pins or corroded tracks around
IC30 and IC31 as well as the resistor SIP R17.  The IC30/31 pair are bus
buffers that facilitate the connection between the front panel logic as
well as the patch RAM, etc.  Losing any one of these signals will cause
strange things to happen, like stuck LEDs.

  Here is the section of the KLM-367 trace map that will help you check
the tracks and pins of the above-mentioned parts:

http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/synth/korg/polysix/battfix/klm367_tracemap_sm.jpg


> Symptoms:
> 
>         I turn the synth on.  The LED in the "MG" section (MG == LFO, I
> assume?  Modulation <something>?) flashes slowly, then speeds up until
> it's on fulltime - elapsed time, about five to six seconds.

  OK, so the S/H element for the MG rate is not getting refreshed, and is
slowly losing (or gaining, can't recall offhand) hold cap charge, thus the
rising MG rate.  This begins to suggest the CPU is not running, but until
IC30/31 and their tracks are verified, this is not a certainty.

>         If the machine has been off for a while, when turned on, the
> LED's marked 16, 8, 4, 2, etc - oh yes, this machine has a "Miditec"
> MIDI retrofit in it, hope that's not the problem... - wait a few
> seconds before all coming on at once.  I'm not sure what these buttons
> are originally labeled; the retrofit kit added some nice stickers over
> the original labels.  The program LED's - all eight - are alway all
> on.  All other buttons with LED's are on fulltime as well.

  Hm, the MIDI retofit could be interfering with the KLM-367.  I do not
know how that particular one attaches to the P6.

>         The arpeggiator section - the LED is working.  Twiddling the
> "speed" knob makes the light blink faster or slower appropriately.

  That is a 555 with variable rate--no CPU involved, though the rate
pulses from it do tickle the key assigner CPU (the other CPU on the
KLM-366 board) to advance the key sequence.

>         There is NO SOUND whatsoever, apart from a hum at full volume
> that isn't affected at all by pressing keys or twiddling knobs.

  While pressing a key repeatedly, look carefully at the KLM-366 (the
biggest board in there) near where the SSM2056 chips are located.  Near
each 2056 is a small LED that should light up when the key is pressed.
Each successive key-press should light the next LED.  This will at least
tell you if the key assigner is running.

>         I've still got my fingers crossed that this is just the lack
> of processor, but the only reason I believe that is Scott's site.  
> Thought I'd open it up to the group for discussion, as I'm antsy to
> get this guy running! :)

  If it does turn out to be the CPU (IC22), you will need a new one.
Fortunately one can be made by buying a blank 8748 and programming it with
the code I long ago extracted from the 8048 on a Polysix.  The original
8048s are factory mask-ROM devices, and it is unlikely Korg still has any.
(I asked for one from them in 1990 and had no luck, thus my risking a
known good one to obtain the code and not have to worry about it).

  8748s go for, let's see:

  www.jameco.com: IC,MPU,8748
                  Part No. 53022 
                  Product No. 8748 
                  Price ea. USD: $12.95 (qty. 1)

  They also have the HCMOS version (8748H) for 15.95.  It is a lower-power
device, but either one is fine.

  Now, if the 8749 (key assigner CPU) is also dead, they list it for:

  www.jameco.com: IC,MPU,8749H
                  Part No. 53057
                  Product No. 8749H
                  Price ea. USD: $19.95 (qty. 1)

  It seems they only stock the HCMOS version for this CPU.

  Jameco stocks another useful part for Polysixes: the RAM chip.

  www.jameco.com: IC,SRAM,6514(LH511423/M58981P)
                  Part No. 43238 
                  Product No. 6514
                  Price ea. USD: $2.95 (qty. 1)

  Programming the CPUs must be done on a device programmer, of course.
Hope this helps,

Crow

/**/




From improv at peak.org  Sat Sep  9 02:37:24 2000
From: improv at peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 17:37:24 -0700
Subject: While we're off-topic, another obscure keyboardist, Mike Nock
Message-ID: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]>

So, I know this is starting to stretch very far off-topic, but since there
seems to be a lot of knowledge of obscure keyboard/synth related music
here, I thought I'd ask.

I'm reading "Jazz Rock: A History" by Stuart Nicholson (highly recommended,
BTW, for anyone else into the pre-fuzak era of fusion). In it, he mentions
Mike Nock and his late '60's band Fourth Way, about their appearance at the
1969 Montreaux jazz festival. he writes:

"Their Set at the Montreux festival was recorded and released as
'Werewolf", which turned out to be their final album together. At the time
it was considered a controversial performance, but today it stands as one
of the classic recordings of jazz-rock. By then, Nock was using one of the
most complete, and impressive, electronic keyboard setups in jazz, a
stunning array of synthesizers, ring modulators, flangers, Fender Rhodes
piano and wah-wah pedals, using them to their fullest capabilities from
far-in to the far-out reaches of white noise."

Later, in a quote fromm a Rolling Stone review:

"The Fourth Way demonstrate, in their most eclectic album to date, that we
are still only beginning to discover the musical ramifications of
amplification, ring modulators and other effects. When a history of
electronic music is written, the pioneering work of Fourth Way should
neatly eclipse the influence of many other more highly publicized groups."

Now, this sounds VERY interesting, especially for 1969! I've just done a
web search, and "Werewolf" is evidently out of print, as are the other 2
Fourth Way records. Anybody out there know anything about this, or perhaps
own a copy of this record? I'd heard of Nock previously as a jazz pianist,
but had never heard of this phase of his career!

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv at peak.org
Minus Web Site: http://listen.to/minusmusic
Minus MP3's: http://www.mp3.com/-minus-
____________________________________________





From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Sat Sep  9 02:58:23 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (terry michaels)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:58:23 -0400
Subject: triumvirat/up pompeii
Message-ID: <200009082058_MC2-B2AB-65BA@compuserve.com>

Message text written by "Goddard, Duncan"
>enough already! what we all want to know is, what was the matter with the
c3?    :-)

d.
<

Hi Duncan:

The problem with the C3 as described to me sounded like one I had seen
several times before, and has to do with the tone wheel generator.  The
tone wheel assembly hangs from a spring suspension to reduce the amount of
mechanical noise coupled to the case of the organ, where you would probably
hear it in a home environment.  Instructions with the organ state the tone
wheel assembly should be locked down when moving the organ, but some people
on tour with a Hammond fail to do so.  The result is the tone wheel
assembly will move around an inch or two, it will swing around to the
limits of the spring suspension when the organ is traveling.  Over a period
of time, the continued flexing will break off some of the 100 or so wires
coming off of the tone wheels and leading to the keyboard/drawbar assembly,
they typically break right at the terminal strip on the tone wheel
generator.  This will alter the sound of the organ on certain notes, you
will have either a missing fundamental or one or more harmonics.  The
solution is to lock down the generator and resolder the broken wires, which
is what I told the guys with Triumvirat to do.

Terry Michaels



From jdec at mindspring.com  Sat Sep  9 05:41:49 2000
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 22:41:49 -0500
Subject: Symphonic Slam
References: <5e.62074c.26ea833f@aol.com> <39B968B4.F9BD44C1@magma.ca>
Message-ID: <39B9B17D.605305A8@mindspring.com>

> I think Timo Laine lived in Fullerton, California - at least he did about
> fifteen years ago.  I think I remember him trying to sell that rig in the
> Recycler (back when it was just a local weekly ad paper).  I think his asking
> price was about $5000, which was quite a bit less than he had invested into
> it.  However, at the time, people were having difficulty getting rid of their
> Oberheim Four Voices for much more than two hundred dollars, so I doubt that
> Timo got much response on his offering.  Maybe he still has it!

Nope -- it's sitting in my basement....

Cheers,

Jeff



From efm3 at mediaone.net  Sat Sep  9 06:49:27 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:49:27 -0700
Subject: multi - keyboard stand?
References: <ISSMTP.1.3(4).20000908115852.4294240547G@corp.wdc.com>
Message-ID: <000401c01a19$7cd96360$0200a8c0@pc102>

Hi Berry, don't scrimp. It sucks if your stand collapses.
I paid more for my stands than some of the keyboards!
The MX6 in the picture fell off a "Dolphin" kbd stand
and smashed the AC receptacle. It stopped working
and the guy that had it sold me the MX6 and the 
Dolphin stand for $100.00. I fixed the MX6 and put
the stand in storage. I have used it a few times but it
makes me nervous! I prefer the Quik-Lok stuff I have
2 of them. For some reason their page doesn't show
the 3 tier version I own so I get to show off a little.

I use one to stack my CEMs on..;-)
http://www.xavax.com/efm/files/cem-stand.jpg

Quik-Lok
http://www.quiklok.com/index.music

DIY?

extra tier?
http://qire.tripod.com/synthstand/

I like this one.
http://www.sirius.com/~yow/bbq.htm

Tom

> 
> Many of you have several keyboard synths stacked above 
> each other.  What do you find is the best low-cost approach
> to doing this when they will be placed against a wall (like
> in a retailer's demo room)?  My catalogs only show single
> and dual keyboard isolated stands.
> 
> 
> Time to get them out of the garage and back into the house!
> 
> Barry
> 





From efm3 at mediaone.net  Sat Sep  9 07:15:46 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:15:46 -0700
Subject: multi - keyboard stand?
Message-ID: <000701c01a1d$05cbf400$0200a8c0@pc102>

Here it is...

http://www.quiklok.com/400x400/sku_QL_623.jpg

Tom

> Hi Berry, don't scrimp. It sucks if your stand collapses.
> I paid more for my stands than some of the keyboards!
> The MX6 in the picture fell off a "Dolphin" kbd stand
> and smashed the AC receptacle. It stopped working
> and the guy that had it sold me the MX6 and the 
> Dolphin stand for $100.00. I fixed the MX6 and put
> the stand in storage. I have used it a few times but it
> makes me nervous! I prefer the Quik-Lok stuff I have
> 2 of them. For some reason their page doesn't show
> the 3 tier version I own so I get to show off a little.
> 
> I use one to stack my CEMs on..;-)
> http://www.xavax.com/efm/files/cem-stand.jpg
> 
> Quik-Lok
> http://www.quiklok.com/index.music
> 
> DIY?
> 
> extra tier?
> http://qire.tripod.com/synthstand/
> 
> I like this one.
> http://www.sirius.com/~yow/bbq.htm
> 
> Tom
> 
> > 
> > Many of you have several keyboard synths stacked above 
> > each other.  What do you find is the best low-cost approach
> > to doing this when they will be placed against a wall (like
> > in a retailer's demo room)?  My catalogs only show single
> > and dual keyboard isolated stands.
> > 
> > 
> > Time to get them out of the garage and back into the house!
> > 
> > Barry
> > 
> 
> 




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Sat Sep  9 07:44:49 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:44:49 -0700
Subject: multi - keyboard stand?
Message-ID: <000701c01a21$15441440$0200a8c0@pc102>


I used to use something like this before I bought the
Quik-Loks. It may be more along the lines of what
you want so I made a quick sketch for you.

http://www.xavax.com/efm/files/stand.gif

Tom



> Here it is...
> 
> http://www.quiklok.com/400x400/sku_QL_623.jpg
> 
> Tom
> 
> > Hi Berry, don't scrimp. It sucks if your stand collapses.
> > I paid more for my stands than some of the keyboards!
> > The MX6 in the picture fell off a "Dolphin" kbd stand
> > and smashed the AC receptacle. It stopped working
> > and the guy that had it sold me the MX6 and the 
> > Dolphin stand for $100.00. I fixed the MX6 and put
> > the stand in storage. I have used it a few times but it
> > makes me nervous! I prefer the Quik-Lok stuff I have
> > 2 of them. For some reason their page doesn't show
> > the 3 tier version I own so I get to show off a little.
> > 
> > I use one to stack my CEMs on..;-)
> > http://www.xavax.com/efm/files/cem-stand.jpg
> > 
> > Quik-Lok
> > http://www.quiklok.com/index.music
> > 
> > DIY?
> > 
> > extra tier?
> > http://qire.tripod.com/synthstand/
> > 
> > I like this one.
> > http://www.sirius.com/~yow/bbq.htm
> > 
> > Tom
> > 
> > > 
> > > Many of you have several keyboard synths stacked above 
> > > each other.  What do you find is the best low-cost approach
> > > to doing this when they will be placed against a wall (like
> > > in a retailer's demo room)?  My catalogs only show single
> > > and dual keyboard isolated stands.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Time to get them out of the garage and back into the house!
> > > 
> > > Barry
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 




From nabla_bk at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  9 11:10:58 2000
From: nabla_bk at hotmail.com (Bjørn Kolbrek)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 09:10:58 GMT
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F3163lzOnfILazVHQdK00005550@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe synth-diy
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From jhaible at debitel.net  Sat Sep  9 12:45:01 2000
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:45:01 +0200
Subject: multi - keyboard stand?
References: <ISSMTP.1.3(4).20000908115852.4294240547G@corp.wdc.com> <004d01c019ea$4fcab420$0200a8c0@paul>
Message-ID: <000d01c01a4b$041aaba0$d338363e@debitel.net>

> not a stand in sight... bits of old shelf and out of date electronics
> mags/phone books
> did the trick just fine!

I used to have different stands, from the cheapest "X" shaped ones to
expensive "A" shaped triple keyboard stands, but in the end I don't use
any of them anymore. Plywood and Pine and custom building works best
for me. I have 3 such stands now, all of them looking like a table on the
bottom platform (and the wooden table legs are readily available).
On top of this table, I have built what I needed for the specific synths.
The OB-8 for instance is half covered by a wooden platform, such as
the knobs are free, but the deep end of the enclosure without knobs
is under the wooden platform. On top of it, the Modular system.
A similar construction holds the CS-50 on top of the CX-3.
And then there is a  stack of instruments with flat tops, VL-7
on top of Lambda (flat top) on top of Kawai Piano (flat top).
The "higher levels" (4th row) are not stands at all, but brackets that
are fixed on the wall.

JH.







From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 13:58:39 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:58:39 +0100 (BST)
Subject: RV: NE555 & LM555
Message-ID: <20000909115839.11044.qmail@web1006.mail.yahoo.com>

"LM" means National Semiconductor, and I think, "NE"
may be Philips or Harris. Anyway the resultant use
will be the same...

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From patchell at silcom.com  Sat Sep  9 15:50:50 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 06:50:50 -0700
Subject: Next Project
Message-ID: <39BA403A.8E913A51@silcom.com>

    I am afraid I am being drawn down the dark path of digital.
(auugghh!!)

    I have always wanted to build a digital.  I have been looking at the
Altera ACEX1K devices.  It looks like you could get a complete digital
synth in one of these things (yea- I know I could use something like the
56303 or Sharc, but I am a hardware dude).  I think it would be able to
put 256 24 bit oscilators, a 16x16 multilplier and 256 16 bit envelope
generators in a single device, probably the EP1K100000.  Speed?  This
part should be able to do all this at a 96KHz sample rate.  The primary
things I am thinking of is doing additive and/or Phase Modulation
synthesys.  I think I have even figured out a simple way of doing
different algorithms in the chip to accomplish different things...

    Anyway, this is a long way off.  Got to finish my current big
projects.

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From blacet at monitor.net  Sat Sep  9 17:50:35 2000
From: blacet at monitor.net (John E Blacet)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:50:35 +0000
Subject: ESD protection
References: <3.0.3.32.20000908132159.0076966c@popserv.ucop.edu> <39B94F4E.581B0A65@ix.netcom.com> <39BAA1CA.962BC7D0@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39BA5C27.7920@monitor.net>

The electronics industry spends a fortune on ESD protection. One reason:
increased reliability and product life.

A couple decades ago, I worked at a small electronics place where the
owner was very opposed to spending any money "on that nonsense". We had
a lot of product failures and our repair business was great. The
customers were not happy, though!

I pushed for basic ESD procedures and got them through the engineering
manager. We used AS mats and wrist straps, AS bags and conductive shield
bags for completed PCAs. ICs stayed in the tubes, not poured out into
cardboard bin boxes.

The results came slowly but we saw far fewer repairs and DOA product.
The customers started smiling. Business got better and better....

You may get away with ignoring AS procedures, but it WILL get you sooner
or later!

A wrist strap and a conductive work surface is a real small investment
compared to having to replace even one IC or having your gear freak out
at a gig.

Major electronics manufacturers even install AS floor tile and make
assemblers wear AS slippers. They would not spend big $$$ if they did
not have statistical proof of the effectiveness of AS procedures.

ICs contain extremely fine structures and a static charge, even one you
don't notice, is like a bolt of lightning!

Debate (if any) closed.

Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sat Sep  9 19:00:00 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 10:00:00 -0700
Subject: multi - keyboard stand?
References: <ISSMTP.1.3(4).20000908115852.4294240547G@corp.wdc.com> <004d01c019ea$4fcab420$0200a8c0@paul> <000d01c01a4b$041aaba0$d338363e@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <006e01c01a7f$65e13280$0101a8c0@iquest.net>

If you are going to do it against a wall, and have it very flush, I suggest
the wire shelving units. They can be had for very little, and can hold huge
amounts of weight to a wall.

I think they are called by the brand name "convenience", but Im not sure.
They have it by bulk and you can get it at almost any good sized hardware
store. BTW, you will need to buy a set of bolt cutters if you wish to do it
right.

They can be mounted and angled in just about any concieveable manner..

Rob


----- Original Message -----
From: jhaible <jhaible at debitel.net>
To: diy <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: multi - keyboard stand?


> > not a stand in sight... bits of old shelf and out of date electronics
> > mags/phone books
> > did the trick just fine!
>
> I used to have different stands, from the cheapest "X" shaped ones to
> expensive "A" shaped triple keyboard stands, but in the end I don't use
> any of them anymore. Plywood and Pine and custom building works best
> for me. I have 3 such stands now, all of them looking like a table on the
> bottom platform (and the wooden table legs are readily available).
> On top of this table, I have built what I needed for the specific synths.
> The OB-8 for instance is half covered by a wooden platform, such as
> the knobs are free, but the deep end of the enclosure without knobs
> is under the wooden platform. On top of it, the Modular system.
> A similar construction holds the CS-50 on top of the CX-3.
> And then there is a  stack of instruments with flat tops, VL-7
> on top of Lambda (flat top) on top of Kawai Piano (flat top).
> The "higher levels" (4th row) are not stands at all, but brackets that
> are fixed on the wall.
>
> JH.
>
>
>
>
>




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Sep  9 21:27:03 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:27:03 -0400
Subject: psuedo Noise Generator ;^P
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009062015030.17709-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <39BA8F06.B6DAD088@prodigy.net>

OK:  Now we are getting into uncharted territory...

1) if you remember the "million monkeys theorem" we can expect an infinite
number
of monkeys typing at random for eternity to eventually write war and peace...

If we go much further in the number of stages, its possible that sometime in
the next
1000 years one of our synths will start saying "Welcome back my friends to the
show
that never ends..." or some such thing.  The copyright implications are
staggering.  And
if anyone DOES hear this... we will assume they are crazy and have to wait
another 1000
years.

2)  (more serious)  Perceptually... we should not worry about how long we CAN
make
the register, just how long we NEED make it.  I have never heard a dropout due
to a
missing frequency using the most agressive bandpass filter common to
synthesizers
(12 or 24 db... Q as high as you like).  A continuous filter sweep will show
that is true even for the WIMPY MM5837.   So "should we care"?

3) There may be applications that need more "random" sources... but with a
repeat rate
measured in hours (or more) we will NOT hear any repeat.  If we perform a
composition
what is the chance we will enter the noise sequence at the same point every
time... nil.

But hammer on !!! This is a very interesting thread indeed !

H^)  harry

The Old Crow wrote:

>   Have a look at:
>
>   http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/noise508_63.asm
>
>   It expands the shift register to 63 bits, with taps at 62 & 63 as
> per the 1 + X + X^63 polynomial.  The only tradeoff is that the loop time
> for a bit is 4us longer, lowering the max. frequency to 17.8KHz or so.
> With a bit of tweaking, I can shrink the loop time again.  Here is the fun
> part: (from the code comments)
>
> ;
> ;   The main loop 'taps' is 28 CPU cycles.  At the 4MHz internal clock
> ; rate, the noise output is operating at a max. rate of about 17.8KHz.
> ; It is 1 microsecond per CPU cycle, so 28us per bit output.  It takes
> ; two bits (one high, one low or vice-versa) to define the highest
> ; frequency, or a period of 56us.  The highest frequency is thus 17,857Hz.
> ; Since the LFSR will cycle through 2^63-1 states, it will take
> ; 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 iterations of the taps loop to return to the
> ; starting seed value.  At a rate of about 35,714 loops per second, it
> ; will take a mere 8,183,588 YEARS to repeat.
> ;
>
>   I think I got that right... ;)
>
> Crow
>
> /**/




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Sep  9 21:57:34 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:57:34 -0400
Subject: Transisters in schematics
References: <002d01c018e1$ea8707c0$79c809c0@gpcompanies.com> <200009071614.SAA01321@dilbert.scp.de> <39B77E9B.2893@monitor.net>
Message-ID: <39BA962E.8597C99D@prodigy.net>

Warning politically incorrect story.

I like the mnemomic.  I remember trying to learn the color code by heart in
8th grade
shop. I was having trouble, and my dad cam by. He said...
"What did they teach you?"  I replied
"Better be right, or your great big venture goes west !"  He said
"Shit... no WONDER my you aren't getting it. Listen up kid... I'm going to
tell you this
Once and Only Once. So pay attention...

Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls, But Violet Gives Willingly !!!"

I never did forget from that moment on !!!

LOL  H^)   harry

John E Blacet wrote:

> I way to remember PNP vs NPN by which way the emitter arrow is pointing:
>
> Not Pointing iN = NPN
> Pointing iN = PNP
>
> Regards.
> -------------------------
> John Blacet
> Blacet Research Music Electronics
> http://www.blacet.com
> -------------------------
> blacet at monitor.net
> -------------------------
> Are you on our mailing list?
> http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Sep  9 22:16:27 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 16:16:27 -0400
Subject: Tools needed.
References: <4.1.20000907123605.009510b0@mail.ezwv.com>
Message-ID: <39BA9A9A.7264D46F@prodigy.net>

Good point Glen:

The Lissajous (X-Y) display is a really good method.  I do it this way, and use
the
chromatic tuner to make sure the reference does not drift.  You can tell
directly from
the X-Y if the frequency is 2:1, or 4:1.  But it is NOT easy to do it this way
and you
need to count very carefully.

I have never found the frequency counter useful except for sanity checks. Mine
broke
a long time ago (batteries are dead).  I better fix it before NiCad batteries
become
TOTALLY non available.

H^) harry

Glen wrote:

> At 03:35 AM 09/07/2000 , Steve Gray wrote:
>
> >If I am going to go into this DIY synth malarky I have a few questions
> >about equipment.  I presume I will need an oscilliscope and frequency
> >counter.
>
> The oscilloscope will be very useful for testing and repairing, but you
> might be able to live without a frequency counter. I've been an electronics
> technician, specializing in keyboards  for nearly 15 years, and I've never
> had to use one yet. On the other hand, a good tuner is very important. I
> even use the audio output from a quartz tuner (when it's placed in
> reference-tone generator mode), to trigger the sweep on my oscilloscope.
> Then, I can "look" at a waveform and tune it without having to hear it.
> It's also possible to set up a nice X-Y pattern, using the two signals ran
> into separate input channels of the scope, and tune that way.
>
> (One small note about the triggered sweep tuning technique. It is also
> possible to accidently tune a note to a ratio other than 1:1, with respect
> to the reference signal, such as 2:3.  If you are not listening to the
> audio, this technique is only practical when the note is fairly close to
> proper pitch already, and you merely want to "touch it up." The X-Y
> technique doesn't suffer from this limitation, and can display the actual
> pitch ratio, as well as showing whether the note is in tune. For both
> techniques, a condition of "in tune" is indicated by a totally stationary
> waveform display. Any rolling or movement indicates a frequency difference.)
>
> > Are there any other peices of vital equipment ?
>
> Of course a variety of good hand tools come to mind, but I guess you
> already know that.
>
> I would emphasize buying a good soldering iron with interchangeable tips
> and heating elements, and not a cheap unit. (Whatever you do, DO NOT use
> one of those pistol-shaped, instant-on, high-wattage soldering guns to
> assemble delicate synth circuitry! Not only do these get too hot for the
> circuitry, but they also have a nasty habit of killing delicate parts
> through an electrical field they generate.) Temperature control on the iron
> would be nice, but I've managed to live without it so far. Make sure your
> iron has a grounded cord, for ESD protection. (For that matter, buy the
> anti-ESD version of any tool, when you have a choice. Even my solder sucker
> is anti-ESD.)
>
> Now that I mention it, look into ESD protection. Get at least an anti-ESD
> wrist strap, and use it according to the directions. An anti-ESD protective
> mat to use on your workbench, and another on the floor, would also be nice,
> but there are ways to live without these, especially if you are just
> starting out and are on a tight budget. (These large mats can be expensive.)
>
> Don't forget to use some sort of smoke extraction technique while
> soldering. Special soldering irons can be bought that automatically suck
> solder and flux fumes into a hose and trap the smoke in a special filter.
> These are expensive and are meant for production work. I would at least use
> a small fan on my workbench to keep the fumes from going straight up my
> nose. It is also possible to buy small fans that have special filters,
> which will trap the smoke in the filter. This might be affordable for you.
> Of course the whole point of this is to prevent you from repeatedly
> inhaling lead or flux particles, both of which can be toxic, especially
> over a long period of time.
>
> A good, accurate,  digital multimeter should definitely be among your test
> equipment. I would only buy specialty meters such as  digital capacitance,
> or digital LCR meters, if I found myself actually needing them regularly. I
> wouldn't worry about them for now, but they can be useful if you are custom
> building certain types of analog circuitry and want to precision match your
> components.
>
> A signal generator of some sort would be a good idea. This could even be a
> simple battery-powered home made oscillator circuit. You probably don't
> need to get one of those expensive function generators.
>
> Speaking of home built gear, do a search on the internet for pages that
> tell you how to build some of your own basic test gear. Simple items like a
> basic signal generator, or a simple power supply can be easily built
> instead of purchased. Anything that makes high-precision measurements, like
> a digital multimeter, should be purchased rather than built - unless you
> are sure you have an accurate way to calibrate the device yourself.
>
> Last, but not least, don't underestimate the benefits of good lighting,
> when assembling or repairing circuitry. You'd be surprised how easy it is
> to make tragic mistakes in poor lighting.
>
> (I hope this wasn't too much information.)
>
> >About how much would a second-hand midi control keyboard cost ?
>
> Depending on your personal needs and tastes, it could be anywhere from
> free, to thousands of dollars.  :)
>
> I was given a broken synth once, and the unit still transmitted MIDI info,
> even though it's own sounds were dead. So, I ended up with a free MIDI
> controller. (That is, until I repaired the keyboard. Now, I have an
> inexpensive synth.)
>
> Later,
>
> Glen




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Sep  9 22:43:48 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 16:43:48 -0400
Subject: RV: NE555 & LM555
References: <001701c019cb$b709c460$07cbf4d8@gtx>
Message-ID: <39BAA103.F4278881@prodigy.net>

The difference is subtle.  In most circuits they are interchangable, so try it.
But in
the MiniModular (Chris MacDonald) the LM555 does not work, and the NE555
does. Difference in the trigger and reset inputs is the "hidden weenie" here.

H^) harry

David Castillo wrote:

>  Hi people!
>
>  What's the difference between the LM555 and the NE555?
>
>  I've bought one today for building a very simple LFO. I asked a LM and they
> gave me an NE.
> I know they're cheap but if I can save the effort of going to the shop to
> change it would be cool :).
>
>      Bye!




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Sep  9 22:47:07 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 16:47:07 -0400
Subject: ESD protection
References: <3.0.3.32.20000908132159.0076966c@popserv.ucop.edu> <39B94F4E.581B0A65@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <39BAA1CA.962BC7D0@prodigy.net>

OK.

None !

(well, I keep the IC's in conductive foam or carriers until use... but no
mat, wrist strap, etc....)

H^)  harry

Dan Slater wrote:

> Hi;
>
> With all of the talk about workbench tools and equipment I noticed no
> mention of ESD  (Electrostatic Discharge) protection. I was just curious
> as to what level and types of ESD protection people use while building
> or repairing analog and digital musical instruments.
>
> Dan Slater




From torbjorn.hornfeldt at telia.com  Sat Sep  9 23:00:46 2000
From: torbjorn.hornfeldt at telia.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?VG9yYmr2cm4gSPZybmZlbGR0?=)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 23:00:46 +0200
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic, another obscure keyboardist, Mike Nock
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]>
Message-ID: <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA>

Does "Clearlight Symphony" mean anything to you? UK and french collaboration
with jazz-rock-symphonic touch I believe.

Loved it when I heard it in late 70s, never got hold of the LP or CD though.

Even grateful for better identification than above....

Torbj?rn




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Sat Sep  9 23:40:28 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:40:28 -0700 
Subject: color code
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A2D@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

I was also told the "Bad Boys" mnemonic, back in high school, by my Basic
Electronics teacher!
I guess that belies my age doesnt it?
I also liked Every Good Boy Deserves Favour (EGBDF, the lines of the treble
clef) and
WYSIWYG, just because when you say it it sounds like some sort of Dickens
character...
Rory McDonald




From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Sat Sep  9 23:50:29 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:50:29 -0600
Subject: ESD protection
References: <3.0.3.32.20000908132159.0076966c@popserv.ucop.edu> <39B94F4E.581B0A65@ix.netcom.com> <39BAA1CA.962BC7D0@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <009901c01aa7$f98ea670$8eab183f@Studio1>

Me too! I just try not to get charged up by the carpet, and remember to
touch ground before handling sensitive parts.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Bissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>

> OK.
>
> None !
>
> (well, I keep the IC's in conductive foam or carriers until use... but no
> mat, wrist strap, etc....)
>
> H^)  harry





From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 10 00:23:49 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:23:49 -0600
Subject: junction noise (really)
Message-ID: <00be01c01aac$a123f800$8eab183f@Studio1>

List people --

The recent discussions about noise prompted me to have another look at my
noise source (the old EN design). I recorded the white noise output into
CoolEdit and analyzed the spectrum. Although I had choosen the transistor
for its smooth sound, the spectrum showed a fair rise at low frequencies,
indicating a significant 1/f contribution.

Since the CoolEdit procedure is quite fast (30 sec or so), I decided to go
through a couple of bags of transistors I had around. Mostly I looked at
2N3904/6's. Out of about 50 transistors, I only found one hero that showed a
perfectly flat response down to 20Hz. Three or four others had only a small
amount of 1/f noise and the rest were quite poor. The differences were
apparent audibly, but an audible comparison is somewhat difficult because of
the different output levels of the various units and because of the
difficulty in remembering a sound over time.

The hero unit had the lowest ouptup of the whole lot, and the largest
reverse breakdown voltage. So I think the old idea of trying out all your
old junker transistors for the largest output is not a good idea at all if
you want good white noise.

  Ian




From microtonal at worldnet.att.net  Sun Sep 10 00:28:27 2000
From: microtonal at worldnet.att.net (Microtonal)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 17:28:27 -0500
Subject: While we're off-topic, another obscure keyboardist, Mike Nock
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]> <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA>
Message-ID: <003701c01aad$47414c60$08044a0c@smile>

That would be Cyrille Verdeaux.  He had some cassette-only releases in the
early 1980s.  I believe Clearlight Symphony had 3 albums released.

John Loffink
microtonal at worldnet.att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Torbj?rn H?rnfeldt" <torbjorn.hornfeldt at telia.com>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 4:00 PM
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic, another obscure keyboardist, Mike
Nock


Does "Clearlight Symphony" mean anything to you? UK and french collaboration
with jazz-rock-symphonic touch I believe.

Loved it when I heard it in late 70s, never got hold of the LP or CD though.

Even grateful for better identification than above....

Torbj?rn





From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 10 00:50:26 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:50:26 -0600
Subject: junction noise (really), cont'd.
Message-ID: <00cc01c01ab0$59032b00$8eab183f@Studio1>

Next I looked at the pink noise filter. The original design consists of a
simple filter, implemented by the following three impedances in parallel
around an opamp:

(1) R = 330k
(2) R = 47k + C = .01u
(3) C = .001u

The overall response of this filter is 3dB/oct, but it has about a +/-3 dB
ripple about this slope. The resultant curve is peaked at 40 Hz and 4 kHz.
As a consequence, the response in the 70 Hz to 400 Hz region is quite steep,
whereas the response from 500 Hz to 2 kHz is rather flattish.

Having a decent math package on hand, I decided to see how much better could
be done by just adding another R+C combination in parallel with the three
above. By adjusting the R and C values and looking at computer simulation
results, I was quite quickly able to come up with a much better filter. The
new network is as follows:

(1) R = 330k
(2) R = 110k + C = .015u
(3) R = 24k + C = .0033u
(4) C = .001u

This design has about a +/- 1 dB ripple from10 Hz to 20 kHz. I did an AB
comparison of the two filters, and there is a big difference audibly. Of
course, you may well prefer the sound of the original filter. But if you
want pink, the above simple modification does a good job.

  Ian




From thescum at surfree.com  Sun Sep 10 05:01:24 2000
From: thescum at surfree.com (Byron G. Jacquot)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 23:01:24 -0400
Subject: Next Project
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000910030124.009a6e74@smtp.surfree.com>

>    I have always wanted to build a digital.  I have been looking at the
>Altera ACEX1K devices.  It looks like you could get a complete digital
>synth in one of these things (yea- I know I could use something like the
>56303 or Sharc, but I am a hardware dude).  I think it would be able to
>put 256 24 bit oscilators, a 16x16 multilplier and 256 16 bit envelope
>generators in a single device, probably the EP1K100000.  Speed?  This
>part should be able to do all this at a 96KHz sample rate.  The primary
>things I am thinking of is doing additive and/or Phase Modulation
>synthesys.  I think I have even figured out a simple way of doing
>different algorithms in the chip to accomplish different things...
>    Anyway, this is a long way off.  Got to finish my current big
>projects.

You do have a copy of Hal Chamberlain's "Musical Applications of
Microprocessors," right?  I think a lot of the techniques covered in there
would be just as valid in logic as they are in software.  

I just got ahold of a copy, and have been re-reading all of the background
information.  Lots of things we've all seen before, but the occasional
little bits & pieces that I'd not been familiar with...

Byron Jacquot




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 10 05:40:37 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 23:40:37 -0400
Subject: Unsolicited testimonial and shameless plug
Message-ID: <39BB02B5.E23718A@prodigy.net>

I just got my Wiard "Mini-Wave" today.  I'm using it with my PV-1 pitch
to voltage
converted Etherwave Theremin.  It is a very cool combination.  Now I can
play any number of scales, chromatic, diatonic, pentatonic, modes out
the wazoo.

I recalibrated the PV-1 to get C-2 (32Hz) = 0.00V  and adjusted the
Mini-Wave to get
5V = 5 octaves.  I run the quantized output to my ProOne oscillators...
and the non-
quantized output to the filter.  Soon I will put the PV-1 and the
Mini-Wave in a 5 space
SKB shallow rack case, just below the Chris MacDonald MiniModular.
Theremin rig from Hell (and so portable....)

You can get the Mini-Wave from www.wiard.com, the mini-modular from
www.minimodular.com  and the (er....) PV-1 boards are still available
from EFM
(e-mail the efm list and inquire if interested...)

H^)  harry




From 8brain at spiritone.com  Sun Sep 10 06:11:51 2000
From: 8brain at spiritone.com (Romeo Fahl)
Date: 9 Sep 2000 21:11:51 -0700
Subject: Korg Octave V?
Message-ID: <002901c01add$40fd2380$0ff182d0@8brain>

Does anyone have schematics for the Korg Octave V pedal?  A very deranged
design from those wacky Korg engineers... it's an octave
divider/multiplier/distortion.... I have one and want to mod it so it will
work without the unit it's supposed to plug into.

Romeo




From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep 10 06:37:05 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:37:05 -0700
Subject: Next Project
References: <1.5.4.32.20000910030124.009a6e74@smtp.surfree.com>
Message-ID: <39BB0FF1.FE37273F@silcom.com>

   Yes, I have that one.  It shows lots of good basic ideas.  Another good
book to get if you can find it is _Foundataions of Computer Music_ , edited by
Roads and Strawn.  This book is a collection of articles.  It has a whole
chapter on Digital Synthesis hardware.

    What is amazing is that a lot of the machines they show in the Roads and
Strawn book, built on large wire wrap pannels, can all fit into a single
programable chip now.

"Byron G. Jacquot" wrote:

> >    I have always wanted to build a digital.  I have been looking at the
> >Altera ACEX1K devices.  It looks like you could get a complete digital
> >synth in one of these things (yea- I know I could use something like the
> >56303 or Sharc, but I am a hardware dude).  I think it would be able to
> >put 256 24 bit oscilators, a 16x16 multilplier and 256 16 bit envelope
> >generators in a single device, probably the EP1K100000.  Speed?  This
> >part should be able to do all this at a 96KHz sample rate.  The primary
> >things I am thinking of is doing additive and/or Phase Modulation
> >synthesys.  I think I have even figured out a simple way of doing
> >different algorithms in the chip to accomplish different things...
> >    Anyway, this is a long way off.  Got to finish my current big
> >projects.
>
> You do have a copy of Hal Chamberlain's "Musical Applications of
> Microprocessors," right?  I think a lot of the techniques covered in there
> would be just as valid in logic as they are in software.
>
> I just got ahold of a copy, and have been re-reading all of the background
> information.  Lots of things we've all seen before, but the occasional
> little bits & pieces that I'd not been familiar with...
>
> Byron Jacquot

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From Jerkbag11 at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 07:05:41 2000
From: Jerkbag11 at aol.com (Jerkbag11 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:05:41 EDT
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <b8.b04caa0.26ec70a5@aol.com>

unsubscribe synth-diy



From thescum at surfree.com  Sun Sep 10 07:32:33 2000
From: thescum at surfree.com (Byron G. Jacquot)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:32:33 -0400
Subject: Next Project
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000910053233.0099a238@smtp.surfree.com>

>   Yes, I have that one.  It shows lots of good basic ideas.  Another good
>book to get if you can find it is _Foundataions of Computer Music_ , edited by
>Roads and Strawn.  This book is a collection of articles.  It has a whole
>chapter on Digital Synthesis hardware.

That's another good book.  The new Csound book from MIT might also have some
good resources and concepts, though the implementation will be veiled.

Something that's maybe not as handy, but also comes from the academic
culture, and might have a lot of interesting ideas and technique would be a
stack of old issues of the Computer Music Journal.  Occasionally they'd get
something in there that I'd never really considered before...like the
article a couple years ago on chaotic synthesis.

It might be available at university libraries...just take a pile of change
to feed the xerox machines!

>    What is amazing is that a lot of the machines they show in the Roads and
>Strawn book, built on large wire wrap pannels, can all fit into a single
>programable chip now.

And those programmable chips are getting more and more dense, too...and
there are a lot of interesting things you could do with just a couple of
them as well.

Does anyone on the list know about the programmable analog stuff I've seen
in the Mouser or Digikey books?  Anything useful for synthesis in those?

Byron Jacquot




From ka4hjh at gte.net  Sun Sep 10 07:46:22 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:46:22 -0400
Subject: OT: $10M Cray supercomputer auction
Message-ID: <p04330100b5e0cdcb9449@[63.28.152.149]>

In case you missed it, a Cray Y-MP C90 was just sold on ebay for a 
tiny fraction of its original price. Check it out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=426080142&ed=968446375


Here's some more info on the sale:

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-202-2718503.html


Makes all the money you blew on that landfill fodder of a personal 
computer system seem pitiful, doesn't it? Old analog synths seem to 
hold their value better...

I suppose you could do some interesting stuff with it, maybe even 
something remotely related to the main topic of this list--assuming 
you could afford the software and maintenance costs. On the other 
hand you can buy a brand new system that pushes the envelope right 
now--and watch it depreciate.


-- 
Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"



From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sun Sep 10 08:18:24 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 23:18:24 -0700
Subject: ESD protection
References: <3.0.3.32.20000908132159.0076966c@popserv.ucop.edu> <39B94F4E.581B0A65@ix.netcom.com> <39BAA1CA.962BC7D0@prodigy.net> <39BA5C27.7920@monitor.net>
Message-ID: <001901c01aee$ee510680$90312bd1@rob>

About 90 percent of non-mechanical after-sale failures can be attributed to
ESD stresses. The statistics tell the full story.
You especially see products from developmental countries/economies having
HUGE reliability issues because they do not want to spend money on ESD
protection when they first start up and concentrate on production numbers
too much.

Mainland Chinese corporations still haven't all seemed to have figured it
out yet.

The marketing ppl keep saying "Why were their products so reliable with the
first set of samples and the second set are terrible?"

I say "check the weather in the area on that day: first samples were built
while it was very humid".

Sure enough.  ; )

Sometimes though, I want to just wring ppls necks when they reach for
something without at LEAST touching first the surface upon which it lies,
THEN touch the IC or populated board. That simple act alone can save most
modern ICs.

Rob


----- Original Message -----
From: John E Blacet <blacet at monitor.net>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: ESD protection


> The electronics industry spends a fortune on ESD protection. One reason:
> increased reliability and product life.
>
> A couple decades ago, I worked at a small electronics place where the
> owner was very opposed to spending any money "on that nonsense". We had
> a lot of product failures and our repair business was great. The
> customers were not happy, though!
>
> I pushed for basic ESD procedures and got them through the engineering
> manager. We used AS mats and wrist straps, AS bags and conductive shield
> bags for completed PCAs. ICs stayed in the tubes, not poured out into
> cardboard bin boxes.
>
> The results came slowly but we saw far fewer repairs and DOA product.
> The customers started smiling. Business got better and better....
>
> You may get away with ignoring AS procedures, but it WILL get you sooner
> or later!
>
> A wrist strap and a conductive work surface is a real small investment
> compared to having to replace even one IC or having your gear freak out
> at a gig.
>
> Major electronics manufacturers even install AS floor tile and make
> assemblers wear AS slippers. They would not spend big $$$ if they did
> not have statistical proof of the effectiveness of AS procedures.
>
> ICs contain extremely fine structures and a static charge, even one you
> don't notice, is like a bolt of lightning!
>
> Debate (if any) closed.
>
> Regards.
> -------------------------
> John Blacet
> Blacet Research Music Electronics
> http://www.blacet.com
> -------------------------
> blacet at monitor.net
> -------------------------
> Are you on our mailing list?
> http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html
>




From mitch at sirius.com  Sun Sep 10 09:17:29 2000
From: mitch at sirius.com (Mitchell Hudson)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 00:17:29 -0700
Subject: Miniwave
References: <39BB02B5.E23718A@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39BB3589.B8A7D870@sirius.com>

    I just got a pair of mini waves last week and am very impressed! This
is an excellent module with lots of possibilities. Works really well as a
quantiser. The wave shaper is very nice with plenty of waves to work with.
Another use I hadn't thought of was to the miniwave as a sequencer.

    It took a couple of tries to figure the thing out, of course everything
started working as soon as read the instructions, go figure. The wave
shaper only seems to work with a saw? Which makes sense but I am curious
why I can't get much more than a screech with a triangle? The envelope knob
is still some what of a mystery to me still?

    A question to Grant : are you still planning to produce the Borg
filter? and will there be a second run of joy riders?

--M




From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Sun Sep 10 12:10:01 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 10:10:01 +0000
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic, another obscure keyboardist, Mike Nock
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]> <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA>
Message-ID: <39BB5DF7.467560C0@wanadoo.fr>



Torbj?rn H?rnfeldt :

> Does "Clearlight Symphony" mean anything to you? UK and french collaboration
> with jazz-rock-symphonic touch I believe.
>
> Loved it when I heard it in late 70s, never got hold of the LP or CD though.
>
> Even grateful for better identification than above....
>
> Torbj?rn



MuseaRecords has the CD reissues.
Check : http://www.musearecords.com/

Original vinyls pop up now and then in local 2nd hand
record fairs. Some items are easier to find (and thus cheaper)
than other though...

jbv






From andy at software-superstars.com  Sun Sep 10 13:19:20 2000
From: andy at software-superstars.com (Andy Mucho)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:19:20 +0100
Subject: Next Project
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000910030124.009a6e74@smtp.surfree.com>
Message-ID: <EHEOLOLLINEMBNHDJDFLEEJIGMAA.andy@software-superstars.com>

Byron G. Jacquot
>
> You do have a copy of Hal Chamberlain's "Musical Applications of
> Microprocessors," right?  I think a lot of the techniques covered in there
> would be just as valid in logic as they are in software.

Jim could also do a lot worse than have a look at the Kurzweil K150FS
(fourier synthesiser) which was designed by Hal Chamberlin circa 1985..
Basically just a chip that provided 240 phase accumulating sine oscillators
(there are noise options) with amplitude interpolation.
Simply the hardware for each osc. looks like phase, phaseinc, amp, ampinc..
The sounds from this machine are *unique*. There have been other additive
synths but none have come close to the K150. There was complete editing
package that ran on an AppleIIe called SoundLab, and later Sound Modelling
program. Basically it gave you control over the envelope for each partial in
the form of 256 stage envelopes with breakpoints. As a performance device
this thing still astounds with one of the most comprehensive MIDI specs
you'll see.
If you're about to delve into designing your own additive synth, do yourself
a big favour and check out (IMHO) the very best of that breed.

AndyM





From debus at cityweb.de  Sun Sep 10 14:35:15 2000
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:35:15 +0200
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]> <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA> <39BB5DF7.467560C0@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <39BB8002.A537FC6C@cityweb.de>

Hi all,

does anyone remember the band Caravan? They had a very typical sound in
many songs on their early albums ("If I could do it all over again", or
"In the land of gray and pink"), it is a special distortion, I don't
even know if it's from a guitar or an organ. Does anybody know how they
made it? I love that sound.

Ingo





From danas at egosys.com  Sun Sep 10 15:26:33 2000
From: danas at egosys.com (Dana Scott)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:26:33 -0400
Subject: Transisters in schematics
Message-ID: <003001c01b2a$bf432940$60fd6ed1@egosys.smtp.ix.netcom.com>

My high school electronics teacher told us the same thing, except with
an additional 3 words to help us remember the color codes for
tolerance.
5%, 10%, 20%
gold  silver none
Get Some Now !

-Dana




>Warning politically incorrect story.
>
>
>Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls, But Violet Gives Willingly !!!"
>
>I never did forget from that moment on !!!
>
>LOL  H^)   harry
>
>




From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep 10 16:09:27 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:09:27 -0700
Subject: OT: $10M Cray supercomputer auction
References: <p04330100b5e0cdcb9449@[63.28.152.149]>
Message-ID: <39BB9617.A520097B@silcom.com>

    That is pretty funny.  It sold for $45,000, but to use it, you have to
purchase licenses from Cray which could run as high as $200,000 (the seller
explained that software was not transferable).

KA4HJH wrote:

> In case you missed it, a Cray Y-MP C90 was just sold on ebay for a
> tiny fraction of its original price. Check it out:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=426080142&ed=968446375
>
> Here's some more info on the sale:
>
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-202-2718503.html
>
> Makes all the money you blew on that landfill fodder of a personal
> computer system seem pitiful, doesn't it? Old analog synths seem to
> hold their value better...
>
> I suppose you could do some interesting stuff with it, maybe even
> something remotely related to the main topic of this list--assuming
> you could afford the software and maintenance costs. On the other
> hand you can buy a brand new system that pushes the envelope right
> now--and watch it depreciate.
>
> --
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep 10 16:24:54 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:24:54 -0700
Subject: ESD protection
References: <3.0.3.32.20000908132159.0076966c@popserv.ucop.edu> <39B94F4E.581B0A65@ix.netcom.com> <39BAA1CA.962BC7D0@prodigy.net> <39BA5C27.7920@monitor.net> <001901c01aee$ee510680$90312bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <39BB99B6.CDCA93EE@silcom.com>



Rob wrote:

> Sometimes though, I want to just wring ppls necks when they reach for
> something without at LEAST touching first the surface upon which it lies,
> THEN touch the IC or populated board. That simple act alone can save most
> modern ICs.
>
> Rob
>

    Explaining that to people is easier said than done.  We are going through
the pains right now of installing ESD equipment (after years of me needling
them about it).  One of the boards I designed, when it gets out of
manufacturing, generally only 1 out of 4 works.  I can generally get two of
those working again (generally a simple assembly error), but about 25% of all
boards never work, and I can never find a cause (they are surface mount too,
makes them hard to rework).

    Rather trying to explain to people how and when to do what, we have had to
resort to having a Static Nazi that goes around to check to make sure that your
ionizer is on, your wrist stat is on your wrist and connected to you static
mat, and that everything is tied to earth, your parts are in their proper bags
and containers.....I hate this kind of BS, but what can you do.....

    I worked at another place where I got caught once not wearing my wrist stat
(It didn't matter that I wasn't handling anything that was static sensitive,
this was a NASA project, so everything was "static" sensitive, even bare
fiberglass boards).  About a week after that little incident, I caught the guy
who turned me in (who also happened to be the manager in charge of the focal
planes) handling a flight board without any static protection.  The NASA
inspector just happened to be walking by when I pointed this out.  Cost the
company big time, NASA wanted that board scrapped.  Two weeks later, I was
fired.

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From mclilith at ezwv.com  Sun Sep 10 19:33:11 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:33:11 -0400
Subject: Can't access the archives  :(
Message-ID: <4.1.20000910130529.0097b8d0@mail.ezwv.com>

Hello,

I have tried to access the synth-diy archives, via the web, a few different
times. I keep getting DNS lookup errors on the server name that actually
holds the archives:

     zoutmijn.bpa.nl

Can anyone tell me the IP address for this server? That might be enough for
me to be able to access the archives.

I also tried to get the archives through email, and it crashed my Eudora
incoming mailbox. All my messages that were in the incoming mailbox are now
inaccessible to me, and I had to start a new file for incoming messages.

Can anyone help me access the archives?


Thanks,
Glen Berry



From mclilith at ezwv.com  Sun Sep 10 19:40:33 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:40:33 -0400
Subject: Synare 4 drum synth
Message-ID: <4.1.20000910133339.00fdf830@mail.ezwv.com>

Hello,

Would anyone have schematics for the Synare 4 drum synth? This model was a
single drum synth, in a flat cylindrical steel box. It wasn't a "UFO" shape
like the Synare 3. This one had straight, vertical sides. The head was
silver with a large black dot in the center, and the case was the typical
black color.

Does anyone have a schematic for the Synare 4?

If not the model 4, perhaps at least one of the other Synare models?

I used to have a model 4, and now I want to build a clone. The circuitry
wasn't very complicated, and it shouldn't be too hard to duplicate. I know,
because I got my original unit free. (It was originally broken and
abandoned, and I repaired it.)

I know there are other drum synths that might sound better, but I am trying
to recreate sounds from some old recordings of mine.


Thanks,
Glen 



From grichter at execpc.com  Sun Sep 10 19:53:26 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:53:26 -0500
Subject: Miniwave
Message-ID: <200009101754.e8AHs5c51021@pop3.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

Hello All,

Thank you for the testimonials!

John Simonton has kindly assigned Wiard the 976x model numbers for our
modules. I am hoping to make the future runs (with Johns permission) look
like "official" 9700 series modules. He is still debating the pros and cons
of having "guest" designers, and whether having our modules look like his is
a good idea or bad.

If John approves it, we'll do a larger run of faceplates with the official
look. The hand built, hand silkscreened limited edition modules will just go
down in the history books as "ultra-rare collectors items". I had envisioned
the modules as expanders for the 9700 series but also good for Arp, MOTM,
Blacet and Wiard 300s. We are all waiting for the PAIA VCO of course which
is key to the whole thing.

The Joy Riders ARE the "Dual Borgs", we just added a joystick for control
instead of two rotary pots. Darwin Grosse came up with the name "Joy Rider"
and I thought it was so cool I renamed the Borg. It is still the Borg
"Assimilator" PCB as used in the 300 series. We currently have six left,
but there will be more in the future.

I just want to add that I have purchased modules from John Blacet and Paul
Schrieber. The Blacet "Mixer Processor" is the most heavily used module in
my current setup, and I constantly use Paul's patch panel to connect all
these different items together. The question of "Who is better" is quite
ridiculous. I can personally attest to the quality and well thought out
nature of all these module products.

It really boils down to the kind of decision you make if you chose to play
violin or piano. There is nothing inherently superior in either and it is
strictly a matter of personal taste. The only thing better than either is to
hear them both together! And so it is with synthesizer modules. A VCO is
fun, a VCO with a Mini-Wave is more fun, a VCO with a Mini-Wave and a
Klangwerk is even more fun yet.

So shop early and shop often (from all your module suppliers).

Best,

Grant

----------
>From: Mitchell Hudson <mitch at sirius.com>
>To: EFM Synth DIY <efm at xavax.com>, Synth DIY <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>Subject: Miniwave
>Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000, 2:17 AM
>

>     I just got a pair of mini waves last week and am very impressed! This
> is an excellent module with lots of possibilities. Works really well as a
> quantiser. The wave shaper is very nice with plenty of waves to work with.
> Another use I hadn't thought of was to the miniwave as a sequencer.
>
>     It took a couple of tries to figure the thing out, of course everything
> started working as soon as read the instructions, go figure. The wave
> shaper only seems to work with a saw? Which makes sense but I am curious
> why I can't get much more than a screech with a triangle? The envelope knob
> is still some what of a mystery to me still?
>
>     A question to Grant : are you still planning to produce the Borg
> filter? and will there be a second run of joy riders?
>
> --M
> 



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 10 20:42:13 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:42:13 -0400
Subject: ESD protection
References: <3.0.3.32.20000908132159.0076966c@popserv.ucop.edu> <39B94F4E.581B0A65@ix.netcom.com> <39BAA1CA.962BC7D0@prodigy.net> <39BA5C27.7920@monitor.net> <001901c01aee$ee510680$90312bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <39BBD604.958661E0@prodigy.net>

I agree with Rob...

I said I do NOT take special precautions... but I do handle the IC's carefully.
I don't
remove them from the conductive foam or tube until I am ready to plug them in.
I use
sockets so soldering stress is not an issue. If I walk with them, I take care
to hold them
in my hand with all pins touching my skin, and my hand closed around them
(faraday cage effect).

BTW:  The humidity issue is a double edged sword. I have MANY failures in the
field
(think 'firestone') that (thank God) are not life threatening... but they trash
machines !!!
These were traced to some lots of optocouplers made in a plant in Malasia...
and caused
by humidity.  The analysis proved humidity damage... but these units are run in
northern
North America where high humidity is not common.  How did it get into the
(supposed)
sealed package ???   At Manufacture.  Probably started the line with climate
control broken, not installed yet, whatever.  Every one that fails costs anout
$5K in capitial equipment failure, plus lost production....

I think the number of failures in the DIY field due to static is pretty low.
Most of us are
not using really sensitive chips. CMOS is MUCH better than it used to be.
Bipolar is pretty rugged stuff... but at least use common sense in handling
them.

A LOT of damage is caused by faulty design. I'm in the industrial marketplace.
NO CMOS input ever leaves a PCB without some protective components, such as
large value
series resistance, diode clamps, caps, shunt resistance, etc.  MANY boards that
die an early ESD death do not have this protection designed in, and are an
"event" waiting to happen.

IMHO

H^) harry

Rob wrote:

> About 90 percent of non-mechanical after-sale failures can be attributed to
> ESD stresses. The statistics tell the full story.
> You especially see products from developmental countries/economies having
> HUGE reliability issues because they do not want to spend money on ESD
> protection when they first start up and concentrate on production numbers
> too much.
>
> Mainland Chinese corporations still haven't all seemed to have figured it
> out yet.
>
> The marketing ppl keep saying "Why were their products so reliable with the
> first set of samples and the second set are terrible?"
>
> I say "check the weather in the area on that day: first samples were built
> while it was very humid".
>
> Sure enough.  ; )
>
> Sometimes though, I want to just wring ppls necks when they reach for
> something without at LEAST touching first the surface upon which it lies,
> THEN touch the IC or populated board. That simple act alone can save most
> modern ICs.
>
> Rob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John E Blacet <blacet at monitor.net>
> To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 8:50 AM
> Subject: Re: ESD protection
>
> > The electronics industry spends a fortune on ESD protection. One reason:
> > increased reliability and product life.
> >
> > A couple decades ago, I worked at a small electronics place where the
> > owner was very opposed to spending any money "on that nonsense". We had
> > a lot of product failures and our repair business was great. The
> > customers were not happy, though!
> >
> > I pushed for basic ESD procedures and got them through the engineering
> > manager. We used AS mats and wrist straps, AS bags and conductive shield
> > bags for completed PCAs. ICs stayed in the tubes, not poured out into
> > cardboard bin boxes.
> >
> > The results came slowly but we saw far fewer repairs and DOA product.
> > The customers started smiling. Business got better and better....
> >
> > You may get away with ignoring AS procedures, but it WILL get you sooner
> > or later!
> >
> > A wrist strap and a conductive work surface is a real small investment
> > compared to having to replace even one IC or having your gear freak out
> > at a gig.
> >
> > Major electronics manufacturers even install AS floor tile and make
> > assemblers wear AS slippers. They would not spend big $$$ if they did
> > not have statistical proof of the effectiveness of AS procedures.
> >
> > ICs contain extremely fine structures and a static charge, even one you
> > don't notice, is like a bolt of lightning!
> >
> > Debate (if any) closed.
> >
> > Regards.
> > -------------------------
> > John Blacet
> > Blacet Research Music Electronics
> > http://www.blacet.com
> > -------------------------
> > blacet at monitor.net
> > -------------------------
> > Are you on our mailing list?
> > http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html
> >




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 10 21:13:25 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:13:25 -0400
Subject: Miniwave
References: <200009101754.e8AHs5c51021@pop3.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <39BBDD54.BDF6563C@prodigy.net>

Aw Sh!t.

Now I have an "ultra rare" model. I'll feel "ultra extra guilty" when I chop it
up.
Now you will have to issue "certificates of authenticity" to those "early
adopters"...

Oh boy this will look really cool in liner notes. And in 20 years the newbies
will
still debate whether the "hand silkscreened" units "sounded better".

Can you say "TubeScreamer" ???

H^)  harry   (lol)

Grant Richter wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> Thank you for the testimonials!
>
> John Simonton has kindly assigned Wiard the 976x model numbers for our
> modules. I am hoping to make the future runs (with Johns permission) look
> like "official" 9700 series modules. He is still debating the pros and cons
> of having "guest" designers, and whether having our modules look like his is
> a good idea or bad.
>
> If John approves it, we'll do a larger run of faceplates with the official
> look. The hand built, hand silkscreened limited edition modules will just go
> down in the history books as "ultra-rare collectors items". I had envisioned
> the modules as expanders for the 9700 series but also good for Arp, MOTM,
> Blacet and Wiard 300s. We are all waiting for the PAIA VCO of course which
> is key to the whole thing.
>
> The Joy Riders ARE the "Dual Borgs", we just added a joystick for control
> instead of two rotary pots. Darwin Grosse came up with the name "Joy Rider"
> and I thought it was so cool I renamed the Borg. It is still the Borg
> "Assimilator" PCB as used in the 300 series. We currently have six left,
> but there will be more in the future.
>
> I just want to add that I have purchased modules from John Blacet and Paul
> Schrieber. The Blacet "Mixer Processor" is the most heavily used module in
> my current setup, and I constantly use Paul's patch panel to connect all
> these different items together. The question of "Who is better" is quite
> ridiculous. I can personally attest to the quality and well thought out
> nature of all these module products.
>
> It really boils down to the kind of decision you make if you chose to play
> violin or piano. There is nothing inherently superior in either and it is
> strictly a matter of personal taste. The only thing better than either is to
> hear them both together! And so it is with synthesizer modules. A VCO is
> fun, a VCO with a Mini-Wave is more fun, a VCO with a Mini-Wave and a
> Klangwerk is even more fun yet.
>
> So shop early and shop often (from all your module suppliers).
>
> Best,
>
> Grant
>
> ----------
> >From: Mitchell Hudson <mitch at sirius.com>
> >To: EFM Synth DIY <efm at xavax.com>, Synth DIY <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
> >Subject: Miniwave
> >Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000, 2:17 AM
> >
>
> >     I just got a pair of mini waves last week and am very impressed! This
> > is an excellent module with lots of possibilities. Works really well as a
> > quantiser. The wave shaper is very nice with plenty of waves to work with.
> > Another use I hadn't thought of was to the miniwave as a sequencer.
> >
> >     It took a couple of tries to figure the thing out, of course everything
> > started working as soon as read the instructions, go figure. The wave
> > shaper only seems to work with a saw? Which makes sense but I am curious
> > why I can't get much more than a screech with a triangle? The envelope knob
> > is still some what of a mystery to me still?
> >
> >     A question to Grant : are you still planning to produce the Borg
> > filter? and will there be a second run of joy riders?
> >
> > --M
> >




From grichter at execpc.com  Sun Sep 10 21:30:47 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:30:47 -0500
Subject: ESD protection
Message-ID: <200009101931.e8AJVV333690@pop4.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

At Wiard we use ESD floor and bench mats with grounded tip irons.

We work in our socks so we don't have to use wrist straps (which I detest).
The moisture from your feet will drain off a charge into a floor mat. Or you
can use the shoe straps (which cost money).

We have shipped 200+ modules with zero field failures, so this must be
working OK.

Keep the chips in tubes until you get to the static mats, then put the
boards in static bags. That seems to work fine, without driving yourself
crazy (like wrist straps will do).



From buchi at takeonetech.de  Sun Sep 10 21:35:03 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:35:03 GMT
Subject: Can't access the archives  :(
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000910130529.0097b8d0@mail.ezwv.com>
References: <4.1.20000910130529.0097b8d0@mail.ezwv.com>
Message-ID: <39bbde1e.256337707@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

>I have tried to access the synth-diy archives, via the web, a few different
>times. I keep getting DNS lookup errors on the server name that actually
>holds the archives:
>
>     zoutmijn.bpa.nl

AFAIK this is Rick?s old server. Unfortunately nearly all web links point still
to that one.
Even if you can  find a link to the correct SDIY home page at Rick?s current
server, the links on the archives page point still to the old address. I suspect
he did not find the thime yet to put up the archives on the new machine.

>Can anyone tell me the IP address for this server? That might be enough for
>me to be able to access the archives.

That would not be enough, sa i have tried to change the server name in the broken
links to the new one.



-Michael Buchstaller



From JWBarlow at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 21:36:05 2000
From: JWBarlow at aol.com (JWBarlow at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:36:05 EDT
Subject: ESD protection
Message-ID: <a5.aee53ad.26ed3ca5@aol.com>

Although Rob, John Blacet, and Harry have sufficiently scared me, I will not 
let that deter me from making a fool of myself by asking: is it enough to be 
barefoot while dealing with static sensitive parts? This is what I've always 
done (I'm in California, so that might explain it), but I'd always imagined 
that static damage would result in catastrophic failure of the affected 
parts, not damage or degradation -- until reading this thread.

John Barlow



From buchi at takeonetech.de  Sun Sep 10 21:44:09 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:44:09 GMT
Subject: slighty OT: How long do relays last ?
Message-ID: <39bce2dd.257553110@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

Hello Group,

i recently discovered a pile of relays that i have acquired ca. 1985. They have
been in my basement since then and look fine since they have been in their
original carton since then.

In the last months i began using some of them in DIY projects (OK, not for a synth,
but for controlling my garage opener motor and for an automated PC controlled
capacitor matching device).
Surprisingly, approx. 9 out of 10 of the relays do work just fine, the others seem to
hang trom tome to time (when i knock them with a screwdriver, they keep on going for
some time befor hanging agein)

Could it be possible that relays (as mechanical parts) have some grease drying up
over time even when they were not used ? The relays are hermetically sealed ones
fom Zettler (AZ 693-055-2) and i have gotten them directly from the factory, so they are
not untested surplus units.

Any hints ? Do relays have a mechanically finite lifespan ? (not the max. number of
on/off cycles or contact wear)


-Michael Buchstaller



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 10 22:49:15 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:49:15 -0400
Subject: slighty OT: How long do relays last ?
References: <39bce2dd.257553110@mail.cybernet-ag.de>
Message-ID: <39BBF3CA.A5E632F8@prodigy.net>

Are those reed relays by any chance...?

the contacts can stick easily if you switch the slightest capacative loads. They can
often carry a amp or two, but will weld shut on make / break.

Most relays have no grease. Hermetic units would have none for sure !!!

Is it an AC or DC coil relay ?  If DC you should have a diode reverse parallel with
the coil. Ans be sure that the relays are truly de-energized. Some relays will hang in
with only 10% of the coil voltage applied.

Hopr this helps

H^) harry

Michael Buchstaller wrote:

> Hello Group,
>
> i recently discovered a pile of relays that i have acquired ca. 1985. They have
> been in my basement since then and look fine since they have been in their
> original carton since then.
>
> In the last months i began using some of them in DIY projects (OK, not for a synth,
> but for controlling my garage opener motor and for an automated PC controlled
> capacitor matching device).
> Surprisingly, approx. 9 out of 10 of the relays do work just fine, the others seem to
> hang trom tome to time (when i knock them with a screwdriver, they keep on going for
> some time befor hanging agein)
>
> Could it be possible that relays (as mechanical parts) have some grease drying up
> over time even when they were not used ? The relays are hermetically sealed ones
> fom Zettler (AZ 693-055-2) and i have gotten them directly from the factory, so they are
> not untested surplus units.
>
> Any hints ? Do relays have a mechanically finite lifespan ? (not the max. number of
> on/off cycles or contact wear)
>
> -Michael Buchstaller




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 10 22:56:58 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:56:58 +0200
Subject: ESD protection
In-Reply-To: <a5.aee53ad.26ed3ca5@aol.com>
References: <a5.aee53ad.26ed3ca5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20000910225658T.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: JWBarlow at aol.com
Subject: Re: ESD protection
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:36:05 EDT

> Although Rob, John Blacet, and Harry have sufficiently scared me, I will not 
> let that deter me from making a fool of myself by asking: is it enough to be 
> barefoot while dealing with static sensitive parts? This is what I've always 
> done (I'm in California, so that might explain it), but I'd always imagined 
> that static damage would result in catastrophic failure of the affected 
> parts, not damage or degradation -- until reading this thread.

The thing with working in socks is that they want sufficient electric contact
with the anti-static floor. If you have a totally isolating floor, then you are
out of luck. It is the combination that counts!

At work we have installed anti-static floor in all labs, the hardware
department office area and then also my office ;)
We have given everyone antistatic shoes, not just the HW guys.
We have antistatic benches, antistatic chairs, antistatic waste baskets with
antistatic wastebaggs. We clean up the room with an antistatic vacuumcleaner.
The big lab requires cooling due to the amount of equipment in there, but the
humidity is usually acceptably high, but we should maybe pay some more
attention to that.

This is our way to play safe with all the more or less fragile equipment in
there. I can not recall that we have had any trouble that we can relate to
ESD. We have seen troubles due to rush-currents, but that was by incorrect
design and not ESD. A redesign solved that problem. Inserting a powerless card
can make you sad, since the protection diodes will pull current from all the
inputs in order to load the caps on the powerless card - OUCH!

Anyway, when I builded the original lab I went for ESD gear directly. Since I
started with it right from the start it has been natural to ensure that all
additions and extensions follow the same level, it is nice to have been setting
the standards fairly high for at least one company!

I strongly advice you to at least get an antistatic matt for your desk, add
also a wrist-wrap. Naturally, ensure that your matt and your solder-tip share
the same earth.

This is a reminder for myself, I really should get a table-top matt for my
home project soldering. It's not that expensive, but I really should kick my
lazy but to actually get it.

A few rule of thumbs:

It is the potential differance that provides the basis for inrush failure like
ESD. Touch (and preferably continously have contact with) the metal frame/earth
of the box you are fixing. Touch (and have contact with) the antistatic matt on
your table (you have one, right?). If you have been out walking around, rise
from the chair etc, go and grab that frame or matt before touching anything
sensitive.

	Keep in contact with ground!

It is the scrubbing of an conductor over an isolator which causes charge. It
may not be apparent when you have this situation, using the floor mat and
antistatic shoes (if you do not run around barefeet) is just one such thing.
Having nylon stockings (we do have females walking our labs) etc. is one of the
nonos. Syntetic materials in general is not a good thing.

	Do not use materials acting as good isolators anywhere near your
	labbench!

The humidity talk, having some humidity is good, since this will provide a
weak conduction path so that if charge have been collected, it will slowly
die out. Very low humidity is not good since this will remove virtually all of
the air-leakage effect, thus on dry days you have a much higher probability of
hurting your curcuits than on a damp day. Thus, for places where the humitidy
often goes below say 30 %, having an air humidifier may be a cheap way of
saving a lot of curcuit and thus a lot of troubles. Naturally, a very high
humidity environment is not good either.

	Ensure you have sufficient humidity!!!

Cheers,
Magnus




From Echophazer at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 23:39:48 2000
From: Echophazer at aol.com (Echophazer at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:39:48 EDT
Subject: Miniwave
Message-ID: <6c.2e2eb58.26ed59a4@aol.com>

I think Incorporating both a common element and a personal element to these 
modules would really work well. The common would keep the whole system in 
unison and be reflective of the compiler of the system. The personal look 
should be guided or created by the designer of the module. When one looks at 
an individual module a bit of the original designer can be seen from the 
outside. This would allow a user to feel closer to his synth by having 
another look at the mind that put together it's design. If I had a crack at 
making a faceplate it would be inspired by the color and shape of sound. 
Solder fumes also perhaps ;^). 

All the best,
Peter



From buchi at takeonetech.de  Mon Sep 11 00:00:31 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:00:31 GMT
Subject: slighty OT: How long do relays last ?
In-Reply-To: <39BBF3CA.A5E632F8@prodigy.net>
References: <39bce2dd.257553110@mail.cybernet-ag.de> <39BBF3CA.A5E632F8@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39bf03d7.265995819@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

>Are those reed relays by any chance...?

No, just "normal" ones with 1 concact and a coil. You can hear them click, and from
theri size (approx. 8 by 40 by 40 mm) they aren?t reed relays.

>Is it an AC or DC coil relay ?  If DC you should have a diode reverse parallel with
>the coil. Ans be sure that the relays are truly de-energized. Some relays will hang in
>with only 10% of the coil voltage applied.

It?s a 24 VDC coil. But the problem occurs even when i apply the power with a hand-held
piece of wire (i suspected bad transistores, too...).


-Michael Buchstaller



From kimse at prodigy.net  Mon Sep 11 00:59:59 2000
From: kimse at prodigy.net (Kim S. Hansen)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:59:59 -0700
Subject: unsubscribe synth-diy
Message-ID: <006d01c01b7b$31bef760$7e30ff3f@compaq>

unsubscribe synth-diy





From bnillson at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 11 01:31:08 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 23:31:08 GMT
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
Message-ID: <F285Te9pIFxXiZZyDw500006dd6@hotmail.com>

Hi.
I made some measurements lately on softsync
issues, by measuring the spikes bleeding trough
to the common emitter of the expo convereter.

Depending on the tecknique used in the switching
mecanism of the core (as you allready know i suppose)
the spikes are quite different in its amplitude.

Just by simple bypassing with a apropriate cap
between the most pos and most neg rail you can
reduce the spike significantly.

To my suprice, by placing a FET in series with the
sourcing current from the osc did not reduce the spikes?

Juergen or  (others) ,did you got any improvment doing so
in your's designs? And has any one done any soft sync measures?

reg
BJ


>From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
>To: "Tim Ressel" <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>, <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>Subject: Re: Junction Noise
>Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:55:08 +0200
>
> > Well, you math weenies have one on me. I can tell you that I have 
>studied
>PRN
> > sources with FFT analysers, and the output falls into well defined
>buckets. In
> > between the buckets there are definite holes: frequencies with no 
>energy.
>My
> > idea was to frequency modulate the clock with another unrelated PRN. 
>This
>would
> > smear out the energy and fill in the holes. This I believe would make 
>for
>better
> > "noise".
>
>If you just play your PRN sequence _once_, you should have a continuous
>spectrum.
>(But only for a limited time, unfortunately.)
>The more often you repeat the same cycle, the less "smearing" you will get,
>and
>at infinite repetition you'll have discrete frequencies.
>So altering the sequence, or the playback speed of the same sequence,
>between
>every cycle, must surely help to preserve the "smearing". With another PRN
>serving
>as a modulation source, the variations will not be unlimited either. You
>will
>get some repetition as well - only much later. It would surely be an
>improovement
>compared with one single PRN.
>The big question is, will this improovement be better than simply investing
>the additional PRN in an increased length of the first one, rather than
>splitting in
>two PRNs and finding an optimal modulation algorithm ?
>What if for a certain number of flipflops the linear arrangement of all
>flipflops
>*is* the best algorithm ?
>(I cannot answer this.)
>
>JH.
>
>

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From efm3 at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 11 03:12:11 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:12:11 -0700
Subject: mm2b one more to go
Message-ID: <000701c01b8d$52c5b040$0200a8c0@pc102>

I have finished the second prototype. One more to go
then it's off the board-house. I don't really want to drill
another 900+ holes but it's a lot easier now that the
holes are etched out of the pads. Changes to the design
were made to improve the CV interface to the analog
section and the VCOs were replaced with a version of
Terry's oscillator that supports FM & PWM looking 
at expanding the basic mm2 to a medium sized modular
for a reasonably price.  

I don't have to do it again but I want to be sure there are 
no errors and all in all this is pretty easy. It's amazing to 
me that I can produce a pcb of this complexity at home
for pennies on the dollar a proto-board house would
charge. The great part is I can design in the morning and
stuff the board that night.

The basic MadMouse2 (6x6) is only slightly larger than 
the mm1 (6.5x4.5) was, has 17 jumpers where the mm1
had 21 and has 21 ICs where the mm1 had 8. The kick
is the mm2 board will cost only pennies more. The raw
pcb and pic will be priced at $45. The same price as the 
BassAce!! (that's $30 for the board and $15 for the pic)
and it's at least twice the synth the mm1 was. There will 
be a "Setup and Assembly Manual" and "Users Guide".

Every effort has been made to build the mm2 without
using expensive parts. The basic synth can be constructed
for somewhere in the $125 range without having to resort
to searching out surplus or bargains.

I will offer a MadMouse2 "Modular Expansion Board"
containing midi - velocity & aftertouch, a 3rd vco, vc-lfo
wave-shaper, rm, sub, patch, mix...ect..for I hope about
the same price ($30) after  the next "Cheap Ass Module" 
release. Panel, kit, and mm2-modular expansion board 
availability and prices soon.

http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mm-2b-sm.jpg

Tom





From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Sep 11 03:32:39 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:32:39 -0400
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
References: <F285Te9pIFxXiZZyDw500006dd6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39BC3637.B5AA6B24@prodigy.net>

Hi Bjorn (and everybody)

The soft-sync should not be a problem if you take some precautions.

1) Power supply decoupling (like Bjorn said)

2) Don't use the same IC (opamp, comparator) in two VCO's. This prevents them
from being decoupled individually.

3) Keep the reset path SHORT and low impedance. Fat traces, and no loops. A
little
inductance can not only add to reset time, it can couple to other traces.

4) Physical separation between oscillators is a good thing. Ground rings or
planes between them will help.  Separate PCB are the ultimate !!!

Bjorn:  What method did you use to measure the spikes ?  Voltage, current ?
Thanks.

H^) harry

Bjorn Julin wrote:

> Hi.
> I made some measurements lately on softsync
> issues, by measuring the spikes bleeding trough
> to the common emitter of the expo convereter.
>
> Depending on the tecknique used in the switching
> mecanism of the core (as you allready know i suppose)
> the spikes are quite different in its amplitude.
>
> Just by simple bypassing with a apropriate cap
> between the most pos and most neg rail you can
> reduce the spike significantly.
>
> To my suprice, by placing a FET in series with the
> sourcing current from the osc did not reduce the spikes?
>
> Juergen or  (others) ,did you got any improvment doing so
> in your's designs? And has any one done any soft sync measures?
>
> reg
> BJ
>
> >From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
> >To: "Tim Ressel" <Tim_R1 at verifone.com>, <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
> >Subject: Re: Junction Noise
> >Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:55:08 +0200
> >
> > > Well, you math weenies have one on me. I can tell you that I have
> >studied
> >PRN
> > > sources with FFT analysers, and the output falls into well defined
> >buckets. In
> > > between the buckets there are definite holes: frequencies with no
> >energy.
> >My
> > > idea was to frequency modulate the clock with another unrelated PRN.
> >This
> >would
> > > smear out the energy and fill in the holes. This I believe would make
> >for
> >better
> > > "noise".
> >
> >If you just play your PRN sequence _once_, you should have a continuous
> >spectrum.
> >(But only for a limited time, unfortunately.)
> >The more often you repeat the same cycle, the less "smearing" you will get,
> >and
> >at infinite repetition you'll have discrete frequencies.
> >So altering the sequence, or the playback speed of the same sequence,
> >between
> >every cycle, must surely help to preserve the "smearing". With another PRN
> >serving
> >as a modulation source, the variations will not be unlimited either. You
> >will
> >get some repetition as well - only much later. It would surely be an
> >improovement
> >compared with one single PRN.
> >The big question is, will this improovement be better than simply investing
> >the additional PRN in an increased length of the first one, rather than
> >splitting in
> >two PRNs and finding an optimal modulation algorithm ?
> >What if for a certain number of flipflops the linear arrangement of all
> >flipflops
> >*is* the best algorithm ?
> >(I cannot answer this.)
> >
> >JH.
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.




From adaaxs at erols.com  Mon Sep 11 07:13:07 2000
From: adaaxs at erols.com (J.G. Wong)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 00:13:07 -0500
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic, another obscure keyboardist, Mike
 Nock
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]> <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA>
Message-ID: <39BC69D4.29378B22@erols.com>

Cyrille Verdeax: Clearlight Symphony, Forever Blowing Bubbles, good albums.
Also Delired Chameleon Family same people, odd name.

You guys are making me want to start a list just to go over this great
stuff from (really) the golden age.

here's a few 
Teddy Lasry- E= Mc2
Zanov- Moebius 256.301, In Course of Time
Richard Tinti and Ariel Kalma- Osmose
Claude Perraudin- Mutation 24 
Francious Breant- Sons Optique
Roberto Cacciapaglia- Sonanze (perhaps the best prog record of all)
Michel Mouline- Chrysillade (or maybe it's this one)

Perhaps a list is appropriate.

G. Wong



From J.Proveniers at orga.nl  Mon Sep 11 09:38:16 2000
From: J.Proveniers at orga.nl (Jeroen Proveniers)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:38:16 +0200
Subject: Next Project
Message-ID: <B17963D44143D311AE320008C7E1CD3E018CCB@EXCHANGE_OBV>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: patchell [mailto:patchell at silcom.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 3:51 PM
> To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: Next Project
> 
> 
>     I am afraid I am being drawn down the dark path of digital.
> (auugghh!!)
> 
>     I have always wanted to build a digital.  I have been 
> looking at the
> Altera ACEX1K devices.  It looks like you could get a complete digital
> synth in one of these things (yea- I know I could use 
> something like the
> 56303 or Sharc, but I am a hardware dude).  I think it would 
> be able to
> put 256 24 bit oscilators, a 16x16 multilplier and 256 16 bit envelope
> generators in a single device, probably the EP1K100000.  Speed?  This
> part should be able to do all this at a 96KHz sample rate.  
> The primary
> things I am thinking of is doing additive and/or Phase Modulation
> synthesys.  I think I have even figured out a simple way of doing
> different algorithms in the chip to accomplish different things...
> 
>     Anyway, this is a long way off.  Got to finish my current big
> projects.

When you're ready to go digital, there's a mailing list devoted to DSP for
musical applications, called music-dsp.

http://shoko.calarts.edu/musicdsp/

Don't forget that digital has problems of its own, which analogue doesn't
have, aliasing for example. Osc's must be bandlimited etc.

JJ



From czech at Micronas.Com  Mon Sep 11 10:30:37 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:30:37 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: junction noise (really), cont'd.
Message-ID: <200009110830.KAA00680@ikarus.intermetall.de>

Interesting.

Pink, white etc, these are EE concepts, ie. these ideas come 
certainly not from musicians, but engineers.
As you have mentioned it is difficult to say which unit is the best,
without looking at the spectrum.

I always wondered why musicians cared about all that and
did not filter to their own needs, regardless of theory.
Perhaps the concepts of noise are very hard to understand.

It's also interesting that even "digital" synths are made
according to these theoretical cases and no one trys to
come up with something new. A kind of not well
understood tradition?

As long as noise is a sound source, these differences may be
tolerable, if not meaningless at all.

Of course, if one is going to have REAL randomnes -say for
composition- these things start to get important.

With filtering we can influence fluctuation rate,
any suggestions how we can influence level distribution?

m.c.




From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep 11 14:03:39 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:03:39 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Arp Trig
Message-ID: <20000911120339.2498.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi, I'm looking to trigger a Moog Prodigy fro an Arp
Sequencer, has any one got a circuit or an idea how
to?
Ken

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From chris at scp.de  Mon Sep 11 15:04:22 2000
From: chris at scp.de (Christian Hofmann)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:04:22 +0200
Subject: PolySix Repairs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009081853050.22312-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
References: <39B94E0C.EEB17A45@pctc.com> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009081853050.22312-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <200009111304.PAA18831@dilbert.scp.de>

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:32:00 -0400 (EDT)
The Old Crow <oldcrow at oldcrows.net> wrote:

>   The first thing to look for is bad IC pins or corroded tracks around
> IC30 and IC31 as well as the resistor SIP R17.  The IC30/31 pair are bus
> buffers that facilitate the connection between the front panel logic as
> well as the patch RAM, etc.  Losing any one of these signals will cause
> strange things to happen, like stuck LEDs.

Yes. And with my P6 I had even to replace one of those ICs (ordinary
74LS08s they are, IIRC). Still looked perfect, but functionally damaged
anyway. Dead cheap parts, but at a very important location in the P6.
Might be necessary to replace those anyhow, to fix the crumbly board
traces underneath.

As a side note, despite the synth acting pretty brain dead, I was even
able to save the patch memory to tape before the operation... :-)



BTW, does anybody know why it's always Polysixes with battery damage? I
mean, there lots of synths with batteries from that time, but I have
never heard of those problem with any other synth. Is it this certain
type of battery?

regards
Christian



From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Mon Sep 11 15:26:33 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:26:33 +0200
Subject: junction noise (really), cont'd.
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02763D5C@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>Pink, white etc, these are EE concepts, ie. these ideas come 
	>certainly not from musicians, but engineers.
	>As you have mentioned it is difficult to say which unit is the
best,
	>without looking at the spectrum.
	>
	>I always wondered why musicians cared about all that and
	>did not filter to their own needs, regardless of theory.
	>Perhaps the concepts of noise are very hard to understand.

I fully agree. Who needs 3dB/Oct filtering in music at all ??

I was surprised how uesful the dead simple high cut / low cut
type of noise filtering in the VCS3 is in practice. Yes, it resembles
the radio receiver tone controls as they were *before* separate
treble and bass controls were introduced, and yes, it's nothing else
than 6dB/Oct filtering, but it sounds quite "right". In fact, when I
first played with it, I wondered why not more Modulars have such
simple filters in addion to their steep VCFs.

BTW, the most convincing rain and thunderstorm simulation
I haved achieved so far was done with repeated filtering
of my HiFi amp's Treble and Bass controls. I used some "white"
(or whatever, who cares) noise source, processed it manually
with treble and bass controls, and recorded it. Then played back
the tape and did some more manual treble and bass control.
Same procedure repeated 7 or 8 times. Playback tape speed
was slightly different to recording tape speed - may or may not
be of importance. It's easy to see that with 8 iterations there can
be anything applied from flat frequency response up to 48dB/Oct
filtering. In practice, I got everything you would hear in a thunderstorm,
from the low rumble to individual drops of rain, with density increasing
and growing to a downpour.
It's too bad that I have lost this recording, and I have never repeated
the time consuming procedure.

JH.



From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Mon Sep 11 15:40:51 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:40:51 +0200
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02763D86@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>Juergen or  (others) ,did you got any improvment doing so
	>in your's designs? And has any one done any soft sync measures?

I don't know. I have done it awfully wrong one time, but that didn't have
anything to do
with the shared expo converter. (I changed the layout for the VCO cores to
get rid of a bad soft sync problem, but - ignoring the soft sync issue
initially -
I had started with the worst layout possible - quite embarrassing in
retrospect.)

I have one other circuit that is more or less a direct clone of the Oberheim
SEM's
VCOs (with shared CA3086 array), and I never had reason to complain about
locking
there.

All my other VCOs don't share a chip for their expo converters, so I've just
concentrated on power supply decoupling to avoid soft sync.

When I will ever build that PolyModular, soft sync might become a serious
issue.
(But then again, I will not have shared expo converters there either.)
I think I will try the "noisy psu" method then.

JH.






From czech at Micronas.Com  Mon Sep 11 16:05:51 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:05:51 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: junction noise (really), cont'd.
Message-ID: <200009111405.QAA01964@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::I fully agree. Who needs 3dB/Oct filtering in music at all ??
:::

Perhaps this special case is usefull, you  can't get it
with a normal filter. I don't know.


:::be of importance. It's easy to see that with 8 iterations there can
:::be anything applied from flat frequency response up to 48dB/Oct

Where we are a the slope variable filter, again.
So far I have only seen a few proposals in EN,
no other analog machine seems to have it.
Digital machines could do it, but follow
the fashion, instead...


m.c.




From don at till.com  Mon Sep 11 17:10:18 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
In-Reply-To: <39BB8002.A537FC6C@cityweb.de> (message from Ingo Debus on Sun,
	10 Sep 2000 14:35:15 +0200)
Message-ID: <200009111510.IAA08786@shell9.ba.best.com>

   Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:35:15 +0200
   From: Ingo Debus <debus at cityweb.de>

   does anyone remember the band Caravan? They had a very typical sound in
   many songs on their early albums ("If I could do it all over again", or
   "In the land of gray and pink"), it is a special distortion, I don't
   even know if it's from a guitar or an organ. Does anybody know how they
   made it? I love that sound.

I believe it's an organ through a fuzz box.  Keyboard players in the
"Canterbury" bands did this all the time.  I *love* the Canterbury
bands; Soft Machine, Caravan, National Heath, Hatfield and the North,
the Bruford band; those guys.

The most extreme case was Mike Ratledge from Soft Machine.  He played
this cheezy Lowrey organ through a fuzz box and made it sound all the
world like some mutant saxophone.  Check out the Soft Machine albums
"Third", "Fourth" and "Virtually".

These folks had an attitude of experimenting with their instruments
that you rarely see these days.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From thudson at tomy.net  Mon Sep 11 18:03:40 2000
From: thudson at tomy.net (Thomas Hudson)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:03:40 -0700
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]> <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA> <39BB5DF7.467560C0@wanadoo.fr> <39BB8002.A537FC6C@cityweb.de>
Message-ID: <39BD025D.42CD2146@tomy.net>



Ingo Debus wrote:

> does anyone remember the band Caravan? They had a very typical sound in
> many songs on their early albums ("If I could do it all over again", or
> "In the land of gray and pink"), it is a special distortion, I don't
> even know if it's from a guitar or an organ. Does anybody know how they
> made it? I love that sound.
> 
I haven't heard this, but on Steve Hillage's first albun "Fish Rising"
there is a similar sound to what you describe that has mystified me
for many years. It sounds somewhat like an organ through a distortion,
but it seems to almost feedback like a guitar. I think I remember
note bends in the solo (on "Dance of the Whirling Dervishes") which
makes me think guitar, but there is also a click on the attack
that suggests an organ. The sound also seems to evolve over the sustain 
portion. I know they have to be using the same device or technique,
because it is such a unique sound that can only be described as
guitar/organ/distortion. I would love to know what this is.

Tomy



From grichter at execpc.com  Mon Sep 11 20:29:58 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:29:58 -0500
Subject: Hacking JD-800 wavetable?
Message-ID: <200009111830.e8BIUbx67755@pop0.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

I recently got a Roland JD-800 keyboard and service manual.

The manual shows the PCM wavetables as 3 x 8 megabit mask ROMs. It should be
possible to replace the wavetable with 3 x 27C8001 EPROMs but I have been
unable to figure out the PCM encoding scheme used in the wavetable.

Anybody have any information on this? My purpose is not to take their
wavetable, but to put my own in. I love the prettiness of this unit, but I
want to put in more strange loops and other wavetables.

Does Roland have a proprietary encoding scheme, and are there any software
utilities (perhaps for the S-50) that move between open .wav or .aiff format
and the proprietary scheme?

Thank you.



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Sep 11 21:28:48 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:28:48 +0200
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
In-Reply-To: <F285Te9pIFxXiZZyDw500006dd6@hotmail.com>
References: <F285Te9pIFxXiZZyDw500006dd6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000911212848L.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 23:31:08 GMT

> Hi.

Hi there Bj?rn,

> I made some measurements lately on softsync
> issues, by measuring the spikes bleeding trough
> to the common emitter of the expo convereter.

Yes, refering to the unintentional softsyncing between oscillators.

I think one has to consider both the effect of bleedthrough over the expo as
well as the voltage limit reference (not too uncommon with some resistor
divider over the power supply). It is interesting how both these effects can
work together.

If you take an VCO having a topology similar to the ASM-1 VCO for instance, you
can have the reference current resistor to balance out the error of the
reference voltage divider. This naturally requires them to see the same voltage
including unwanted power-ticks, so they should tap their voltage at basically
the same point.

> Depending on the tecknique used in the switching
> mecanism of the core (as you allready know i suppose)
> the spikes are quite different in its amplitude.

Certainly.

> Just by simple bypassing with a apropriate cap
> between the most pos and most neg rail you can
> reduce the spike significantly.

Oh yes, there are quite some spikes there, so you have to have a capacitor or
two around with extra-charge to drop in. I had the capacitor discharge on my
ASM-1 timed to be about 750 ns and the LM311 should be faster...

> To my suprice, by placing a FET in series with the
> sourcing current from the osc did not reduce the spikes?

Hum, how would that help?

> Juergen or  (others) ,did you got any improvment doing so
> in your's designs? And has any one done any soft sync measures?

Speaking only for myself, I have not done any measurements targeted towards
unintentional soft-sync from one oscillator to another. I have not taken any
special measures to avoid it, but I do have spent some time considering
generic sensitivity of power line noise. Consider an oscillator sync up with
gate/ADSR related transients, things like that.

I think the AH thread about the Bode frequency shifter which was unusable for
small frequency shift (like below 1 Hz) due to oscillators syncing to each
other relate to this discussion.

Cheers,
Magnus



From mcphive at corrupt.net  Mon Sep 11 22:36:35 2000
From: mcphive at corrupt.net (andy)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:36:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: cheap: TL081 op-amps
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009111633090.13726-100000@washington.corrupt.net>


	anyone have a use for surface-mount TL081C opamps? i have a tube
of 95 of them which i just found. top reads "TI640B / TL081C" and bottom
says "TAIWAN / B". 

	$10.00 or best offer, will trade for a small quantity of DIP
op-amps if you'd rather do that.

	thanks,
	andy




From jhaible at debitel.net  Mon Sep 11 23:46:11 2000
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:46:11 +0200
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
References: <F285Te9pIFxXiZZyDw500006dd6@hotmail.com> <20000911212848L.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <003301c01c39$bfc75840$8538363e@debitel.net>

> I think the AH thread about the Bode frequency shifter which was unusable
for
> small frequency shift (like below 1 Hz) due to oscillators syncing to each
> other relate to this discussion.

Ah, no I see why I was adressed personally in the orig. mail.
No, I have not found a magic potion to avoid soft sync at increadibly
low levels. The FS-1 does not suffer from that phenomenon simply
because there are no two separate oscillators (all done in baseband,
with a single quadrature VCO)
No big help for the synth VCO problem, I fear.

JH.







From jhaible at debitel.net  Tue Sep 12 02:31:10 2000
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 02:31:10 +0200
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
References: <F29fecaQOeErK24k5MA00002d83@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008c01c01c50$d2e29540$3e75e03e@debitel.net>

> >I have one other circuit that is more or less a direct clone of the
> > >Oberheim SEM's VCOs (with shared CA3086 array), and I never had >reason
> >to complain about locking there.
>
> Ok, what about the Rbe/Vce linearity, any problems with that?

Not in my application (simple audio range VCO). But I've added
(mis)tracking pots on the front panel anyway, to make the oscillators
more "alive" if that is needed.


> >When I will ever build that PolyModular, soft sync might become a
>serious
> >issue. (But then again, I will not have shared expo >converters there
> >either.)
>
> Is there any performance related issues in not to have
> shared expo converters in your design decision??

Yes - they will be V/Hz !  (;->)
There might be an expo multiplier in each VCO nevertheless, but then it will
be a not too temperature sensitive one (just for detuning, i.e. no big range
for the tempco to strike) - see MS-20 or JH-720 for details.

JH.







From jhaible at debitel.net  Tue Sep 12 02:31:38 2000
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 02:31:38 +0200
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
References: <F285Te9pIFxXiZZyDw500006dd6@hotmail.com><20000911212848L.cfmd@swipnet.se><003301c01c39$bfc75840$8538363e@debitel.net> <20000912003336A.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <008d01c01c50$d3abffc0$3e75e03e@debitel.net>

> This discussion also makes me think of the MiniMoog, too weak powersupply
and
> thus noisy powerlines which made it less prone to lock the oscillators to
> each other. When I was in Gothenburg and standing in line to get some
coffie I
> also came to think of the addition of noise into the oscillator CVs in
order
> to make them less eager to lock. Maybe that could also be of interest.
However,
> the noise level should not be too high.

One should be able to introduce a controlled amount of psu noise at the
reference
pin of adjustable 3-pin voltage regulators (AC-coupling for the noise). Not
testet.

JH.











From tpp109 at psu.edu  Tue Sep 12 07:03:51 2000
From: tpp109 at psu.edu (Tom Priore)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:03:51 -0400
Subject: Amp Power Measurement
Message-ID: <NIEALLDLFPIADAHIKBBBEECKCMAA.tpp109@psu.edu>

I?ve been asked to find the actual RMS power for an amplifier. Is it as
simple as pumping a test signal though it and measuring the voltage drop
across a speaker with a know ohmage, then use the P=V^2/R?
I have a feeling this wont work. Any insight would be appreciated.

Tom Priore





From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Tue Sep 12 16:06:34 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:06:34 +1000
Subject: diy site with freq divide by CV
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000912140634.00942a38@popa.melbpc.org.au>

http://www.scsiband.com/diy.htm

is a new one to me, or did I miss it being mentioned here?
I like the idea of a divider with CV input!
and that 7 seg on the sequencer is nice too ;-)

paul perry Melbourne Australia




From theinmans at mindspring.com  Wed Sep 13 02:19:57 2000
From: theinmans at mindspring.com (theinmans at mindspring.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:19:57 -0700
Subject: employment
References: <200009230106.VAA00199@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
	 <000701c02520$e210b1e0$fc372bd1@rob> <p04330100b5f2066da53e@[63.28.152.194]>
Message-ID: <39BEC82D.7E33@mindspring.com>

> >Well, FWIW, I know a guy who lied and said he had a BSEE, but he was a good
> >enough tech that when they asked him the *money* questions during the
> >interview he answered with authority so they never even bothered to check
> >his references.  ; ) He is now a program manager and no one except me and a
> >select few know about it.

Of course, there's the other side to this story.  My sister the VP hires 
engineers (mostly civil), and she tells this classic story.  The
interview
is going very well and she is just about to hire this person.  She asks
again where this person got his BS...

Interviewee: Oh, yeah, yeah.  I got my BS from X State University.

My Sister:  (Picking up the telephone).  Do you mind if I call them?

Interviewee:  Uh... don't bother.

END OF INTERVIEW.

Just be careful when you're lying in a job interview.  You never know 
when that sweet girl sitting on the other side of the desk, acting
friendly and asking you all the easy questions, is suddenly going to
... reach over and cut your balls off.

Elliot



From edgarfov at zahav.net.il  Wed Sep 13 02:39:25 2000
From: edgarfov at zahav.net.il (e)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:39:25 +0200
Subject: asm1- dirfts on mods.
Message-ID: <200009122339.e8CNdJ527143@maggie.inter.net.il>

Hi all

i have posted the lfo bad influ on the asm.
tnx for all the advices.
as i investigated the drift facts ,and implanted my own build
regulator i (7815/7915) i have notice this new disturbinese in the force 

every pot. that has + to - 15 range and works as the modulator
such as the FC (filter section) pot , or pwm pot.
when the turn reaches the limit suddenly a small shift in the osc, is heared.
i scoped it , the change is measured like 30 to 40 mv shift.

another fact is when i use my lab regulator , this anomaly 
almost dissapear , at least from the hearing range.

tnx 

Aln






From psnow at magma.ca  Wed Sep 13 02:42:39 2000
From: psnow at magma.ca (Peter Snow)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:42:39 -0400
Subject: testing
Message-ID: <39BECD7F.681FBA7E@magma.ca>

Testing... Sorry, I seem to be disconected from the list.



From mcphive at corrupt.net  Wed Sep 13 04:28:24 2000
From: mcphive at corrupt.net (andy)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: cheap FS/T: TL081 op-amps
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009122227150.16632-100000@washington.corrupt.net>


	anyone have a use for surface-mount TL081C opamps? i have a tube
of 95 of them which i just found. top reads "TI640B / TL081C" and bottom
says "TAIWAN / B". 

	$10.00 or best offer, will trade for a small quantity of DIP
op-amps if you'd rather do that.

	thanks,
	andy





From mrmike at clickbang.com  Wed Sep 13 04:46:03 2000
From: mrmike at clickbang.com (Mike McCaughey)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:46:03 -0500
Subject: list up?
Message-ID: <v04210102b5e49abeb571@[208.234.214.17]>

Is the list dead or has some evil conspiricy unsub'd me? I haven't 
seen anything since Monday...



From mclilith at ezwv.com  Wed Sep 13 07:12:39 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:12:39 -0400
Subject: Picking out CEM chips
Message-ID: <4.1.20000913010425.009daed0@mail.ezwv.com>

Hello,

I'm considering doing a mono synth project in the future. I was thinking of
using CEM chips as the foundation. Does anyone have any suggestions as to
which CEM chips sound the best, or which ones have the most stable tuning,
etc? I realize that many of the CEM parts are no longer available, so
please make some suggestions for good chips that *are* still available.

Since I haven't decided on any architecture yet, any chip is a potential
consideration. At the moment, I'm just gathering some initial information.
Suggestions for parts other than the CEM series are also welcome.

Thank you,

Glen Berry



From kynsi at boomboomclap.demon.nl  Wed Sep 13 11:28:43 2000
From: kynsi at boomboomclap.demon.nl (Kyn Si)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:28:43 +0200
Subject: test please ingore
Message-ID: <E13Z8Vz-0009Xj-00@post.mail.nl.demon.net>

test



_._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._.

"the modern day composer refuses to die" - E. Varese

            "real music never will" - K.S.

        http://www.boomboomclap.demon.nl/kynsi

_._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._.



From debus at cityweb.de  Wed Sep 13 11:40:51 2000
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:40:51 +0200
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
References: <200009111510.IAA08786@shell9.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <39BF4BA1.E8FC790D@cityweb.de>

[typical Caravan sound]
Don Tillman wrote:
> I believe it's an organ through a fuzz box.  Keyboard players in the
> "Canterbury" bands did this all the time.  I *love* the Canterbury
> bands; Soft Machine, Caravan, National Heath, Hatfield and the North,
> the Bruford band; those guys.

First, thanks to all who responded on and off list.

So (to get back on topic again), how could I reproduce this sound? Any
hints which fuzz box was used and how the undistorted organ sounded? I
listened to the "Grey and Pink" album once again carefully, and there
might be a hint to answer the second question: on the piece "Winter
Wine" there's a keyboard solo with a sound which could be from a "cheesy
organ", immediately afterwards the solo continues with "that sound".
Maybe he just turned the bypass of the fuzz off?

Remarkable: "That sound" is always played monophonic. But it's often
accompanied by a Hammond playing chords. They didn't use a synthesizer
in 1971, did they?

Ingo




From h.j.vanderlinden at el.utwente.nl  Wed Sep 13 12:14:44 2000
From: h.j.vanderlinden at el.utwente.nl (Heiko van der Linden)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:14:44 +0200
Subject: test please ignore
References: <000701c01b8d$52c5b040$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <001801c01d6b$7062c040$7e1e5982@el.utwente.nl>

test
 




From buchi at takeonetech.de  Wed Sep 13 18:53:04 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:53:04 GMT
Subject: test post - please ignore
Message-ID: <39bfb0c4.104729596@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

Test-TEST 1-2-3...

(have not received SDIY-emails for 2 days...)


-Michael Buchstaller



From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Wed Sep 13 20:21:48 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:21:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Korg MS-20 power transformer question
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009131411200.1063-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


  Hi folks,

  I've decided to rewire the AC line side of my MS-20 to use 115VAC as
opposed to its stock 230VAC (unit was originally in Europe).  Looking at
the transformer, I notice two extra, unused primary-tap wires that have
been sealed up in heatshrink.

  Now, my other Korg gear uses this same style of primary taps to select
the input voltage, so I figured this is also the case for the MS-20.  My
question is, which two wire-colors are used for 115VAC?

  I could measure the winding resistance for each tap, but then I'd have
to take the entire cabinet apart whereas I'm trying to get this done with
just the right-side end cap removed.  Thought I'd ask to see if someone
out there 1) has already done this and can tell me which wire colors, or
2) can take the right-side end cap off their 115V MS-20, look at the
transformer and tell me what the connected wire colors are.  The service
manual doesn't show this.

Crow

/**/




From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Wed Sep 13 21:36:50 2000
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Schmitz)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:36:50 +0200
Subject: Test
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913213650.00a4a280@mailout.uni-bonn.de>

What happened?!
-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159

 




From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Sep 13 22:01:42 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:01:42 +0100
Subject: The Oakley Gallery has a new room.
Message-ID: <000f01c01dbe$67e49800$b302883e@default>

Hi all,

I have added another page to my gallery section. For those who don't
know, this is the part of my website that shows off my projects that
have been built by someone other then me. The latest page shows Steve
Thomas's modular synth taking shape.

Any other Oakley cutomers are welcome to submit their photos for the
website. The more the merrier.

www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/gallery2.htm

Regards,

Tony Allgood

(from the land of no petrol)




From warmregards at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 13 22:30:21 2000
From: warmregards at btinternet.com (George Leonard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:30:21 +0100
Subject: Test please ignore.
Message-ID: <000701c01dc1$70ef52c0$f341073e@oemcomputer>

testing,testing,testing.




From david at hylander.com  Thu Sep 14 01:13:23 2000
From: david at hylander.com (Dave Hylander)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:13:23 -0400
Subject: Is the server up?
In-Reply-To: <39BB8002.A537FC6C@cityweb.de>
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]>
 <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA>
 <39BB5DF7.467560C0@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20000913191218.022602c0@pop.mindspring.com>

Haven't been getting any messages and wonder if the list is running.




From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Thu Sep 14 11:20:17 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:20:17 +0000
Subject: Test
Message-ID: <39C09850.166103CB@wanadoo.fr>

Test





From dafc at sinectis.com.ar  Thu Sep 14 16:18:39 2000
From: dafc at sinectis.com.ar (David Castillo)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:18:39 -0300
Subject: Hi, I'm not receiving any message since 09/11/00. What's happening?????????
Message-ID: <001101c01e56$aefb4f20$e9c4f4d8@gtx>

Hi, I'm not receiving any message since 09/11/00. What's happening?????????




From herrmann at eecs.ukans.edu  Thu Sep 14 17:07:00 2000
From: herrmann at eecs.ukans.edu (Justin Herrmann)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:07:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Testing
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0009141006310.11451-100000@tesla.eecs.ukans.edu>

This is just a test.




From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Sep 14 18:14:39 2000
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:14:39 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Very, very, quiet!
Message-ID: <20000914161439.12652.qmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi, Synth DIY people! Have I unsubscribed myself, or
what? Could it be that everyone is building synths?
It's just I haven't seen any posts for a couple of
days.
Ken.
ps just finished yet another synth panel, the old way,
drill and decadry! there must be a way of generating
panel art work from Photoshop or Paintshop?

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 14 21:40:39 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:40:39 -0700
Subject: Are we Live?
Message-ID: <39C129B7.96752294@silcom.com>

    Just checking to see if SYNTH-DIY is up and running.....

    Well, just in case...

    I have been doing a little work on putting a digital synth into an
Altera ACEX EP1K30.  I am pretty amazed, what I had in mind for a
minimal system seems to fit just fine.  Here are the specs:

    Interface: 68000 processor bus, 16 bits.
    Look up table: Up to 16 meg per bank (a bank contains all of the
waveform for one cycle) with TBD number of banks.  Memory is 16 bits
wide.
    Oscilators:256, 24 bits, 96KHz sample rate.
    Envelope Generators:256, 16 bits.  There are to register backs, an
increment register, which controls how much the envelope changes value
per sample period, and a ramp to value, which will generate an interrupt
when it is crossed.  The micoprocessor is responsible for changing these
values to create the composite envelope.
    Algorithm Table:256 words by TBD bits.  This memory determines how
everything is processed.  What gets added to what, who gets modulated by
who.
    Outputs: A stereo digital stream that can be interfaced to your
regular 24 bit CD DACs.

    Well, I hope the list is actually up when I send this.

    -Jim





From rja at euronet.nl  Fri Sep 15 01:10:46 2000
From: rja at euronet.nl (Rick Jansen)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:10:46 +0200
Subject: Admin msg: synth-diy is up again
Message-ID: <39C15AF6.E85C364B@euronet.nl>

Dear all,

Sorry for the server outage, it's up again.
I was away on vacation for a week and forgot 
to do a cleanup, causing a full file system.

Rick Jansen
-- 
Web: http://www.euronet.nl/~rja/
email: rja at euronet.nl



From skin_job at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 02:40:05 2000
From: skin_job at hotmail.com (skinny bastard)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:40:05 GMT
Subject: sampler module
Message-ID: <F166Wa6f4LjqhN2aQjU0000f993@hotmail.com>

Has anyone out there ever built a small synth module that can function as a 
sampler (capable of storing maybe one sound)? Perhaps a module that can use 
digital design to store a sound (from an input jack), and play that sound 
every time it recieves a trigger signal from an analog sequencer (or 
whatever). I can already think of several ways that I would want to set this 
up, but wanted to know if anyone had a preexisting design.

James
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From drtempus at home.com  Fri Sep 15 03:09:00 2000
From: drtempus at home.com (Allen)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:09:00 -0400
Subject: looking for memorymoog parts
References: <v02130502b5b353fb1f0c@[208.25.89.92]> <20000906220809M.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39C176AC.20749208@home.com>

Could somebody tell me where I can purchase some memorymoog
parts?

I'm looking for 2 dual concentric knobs 
(moog p/n: 915-041298-002)

(they are for Freq 2 and Freq 3) 

thanks in advance.

-Allen



From czech at Micronas.Com  Fri Sep 15 09:13:53 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:13:53 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: please ignore, test
Message-ID: <200009150713.JAA09780@ikarus.intermetall.de>




From Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com  Fri Sep 15 18:53:55 2000
From: Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com (Barry L Klein)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:53:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: sound healing
Message-ID: <ISSMTP.1.3(4).20000915095355.4294263511M@corp.wdc.com>

Hi all,
I've always found this guy's CD's very interesting in the way he utilizes
3D space and environmental sounds, and I've been into various forms of
psychoacoustical technologies over the years in some amateurish manner or
another...  Maybe this is of interest to some of you.  Let me know if you
plan to attend.  I may go to the 2 day thing.

Barry

----------
From: 	Jeffrey Thompson[SMTP:drjeff at adnc.com]
Sent: 	Thursday, September 14, 2000 10:50 PM
To: 	drjeff at adnc.com
Subject: 	sound healing 

I am sending this email to you, as you expressed an interest in my use off
sound in healing. If this email is reaching you in error, or if you do not
wish other information or notices in the future concerning sound healing,
please email me with your name and put the word "cancel" in the subject
field.

Here is the latest information on a new 2-Day, weekend upcoming Sound
Healing Workshop I will be holding:

2-Day Experiential Sound Healing / 
Changing Consciousness Workshops:

When:	November  18 and 19 (Sat/Sun)  9:00am - 6:00pm
Where:	Center for Neuroacoustic Research
		California Institute for Human Science
		701 Garden  View Court
		Encinitas, CA 92024 (30 min north of San Diego)
		(760) 942-6749 tel
		(760) 942-6768 fax

Cost:		$250.00

MasterCard/Visa accepted (fax card number and exp date)
Checks: to Dr Jeffrey D Thompson


6-Day Intensive 
Sound Practitioner's Certification Training Workshop

When: 	Oct 20-26, 2000 and Jan 12-18, 2001
Where: 	Center for Neuroacoustic Research
		California Institute for Human Science
		701 Garden View Court
		Encinitas, CA 92024 (30 min north of San Diego)
		(760) 942-6749 tel
		(760) 942-6768 fax
Cost: 		$1200.00
Pre-Registration Deposit required:	$250.00
MasterCard/Visa accepted (fax card number and exp date)
Checks: to Dr Jeffrey D Thompson

I am attaching some information files of interest.
I hope to see you here in San Diego!




Interested in the latest advancements in Vibrational Healing? 
World renowned healing authority Dr. Jeffery Thompson is offering the
ultimate experiential workshop on healing and changing consciousness with
sound. A tremendous opportunity for practitioners or anyone interested in
alternative healing. 


Healing and Changing Consciousness with Sound

2 Days of Experience and Information

with Dr. Jeffrey D. Thompson


Day 1, Segment 1:
The physics of acoustics and the underpinnings of sympathetic resonance
-Vibrational Healing as it effects the body. The physics and neurophysics
of entrainment - as it relates to physical entrainment and brainwave
entrainment for changing states of consciousness. Experience how specific
frequencies can effect your body function. 

Day 1, Segment 2:
Layman's neuroanatomy and neurophysiology of hearing and vibration sense
processing in the brain and body - to build an understanding of how sound
and vibration can cause change in physiology and behavior. Experience how
sound pulses and binaural beats can change your state of consciousness.

Day 2, Segment 3): 
An in depth study of "Primordial Sounds" and their effect on the body and
the mind. The use of human body recordings, vocal recordings, nature
sounds
and NASA Space Sound recordings in therapy. Experience the effects of
these
sounds on your mind and body. The power of your own voice to heal you.

Day 2, Segment 4): 
Modern, high-tech equipment for measuring physical responses to sound
therapy in the central nervous system, acupuncture meridians, brainwaves
and post-ganglionic energy centers. How all the most cutting-edge,
high-tech tools for using sound to heal and expand consciousness have
already been used for thousands of years by healers, monks and Shamans
from
various cultures around the world: China, Tibet, Peru, Native Americans,
Aborigines, etc. Experience these ancient tools alongside their modern
counterparts.





If you would like more information on the 6-Day Certification Course,
email
me and I will send it to you.

Thanks,

Dr Jeff






From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep 16 01:34:14 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:34:14 +0200
Subject: Amp Power Measurement
In-Reply-To: <NIEALLDLFPIADAHIKBBBEECKCMAA.tpp109@psu.edu>
References: <NIEALLDLFPIADAHIKBBBEECKCMAA.tpp109@psu.edu>
Message-ID: <20000916013414E.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Tom Priore" <tpp109 at psu.edu>
Subject: Amp Power Measurement
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:03:51 -0400

Hi!

> I?ve been asked to find the actual RMS power for an amplifier. Is it as
> simple as pumping a test signal though it and measuring the voltage drop
> across a speaker with a know ohmage, then use the P=V^2/R?
> I have a feeling this wont work. Any insight would be appreciated.

Traditionally you set up a bunch of resistors on a cooling tunnel setup and
wire them up for the resistance of interest (say 4 or 8 ohms). Then, you crank
up your amplifier with a sine until you start to run into clipping, just at the
limit. Now, use an RMS meter to measure the voltage and then use the power
formula. Naturally you would have to have measured the resistance with some
precission or else you don't know where you are.

Rather straigth forward I'd say.

Cheers,
Magnus



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep 16 01:37:04 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:37:04 +0200
Subject: diy site with freq divide by CV
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000912140634.00942a38@popa.melbpc.org.au>
References: <1.5.4.32.20000912140634.00942a38@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <20000916013704N.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Paul Perry <pfperry at melbpc.org.au>
Subject: diy site with freq divide by CV
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:06:34 +1000

Phew!

Nice that the list is back again...

> http://www.scsiband.com/diy.htm
> 
> is a new one to me, or did I miss it being mentioned here?
> I like the idea of a divider with CV input!

Didn't Juergen make one of those?

Cheers,
Magnus




From tsheets at saturn5.com  Sat Sep 16 01:40:58 2000
From: tsheets at saturn5.com (Troy Sheets)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:40:58 -0700
Subject: Are we Live?
In-Reply-To: <39C129B7.96752294@silcom.com>; from Jim Patchell on Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 12:40:39PM -0700
References: <39C129B7.96752294@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000915164058.Q18556@atari.saturn5.com>



Sounds cool, can you explain more about it?  When you say "oscillators:256"
what exactly does that mean?

Whats the alogrithm table?

Any filters?

-troy

On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 12:40:39PM -0700, Jim Patchell wrote:
>     Just checking to see if SYNTH-DIY is up and running.....
> 
>     Well, just in case...
> 
>     I have been doing a little work on putting a digital synth into an
> Altera ACEX EP1K30.  I am pretty amazed, what I had in mind for a
> minimal system seems to fit just fine.  Here are the specs:
> 
>     Interface: 68000 processor bus, 16 bits.
>     Look up table: Up to 16 meg per bank (a bank contains all of the
> waveform for one cycle) with TBD number of banks.  Memory is 16 bits
> wide.
>     Oscilators:256, 24 bits, 96KHz sample rate.
>     Envelope Generators:256, 16 bits.  There are to register backs, an
> increment register, which controls how much the envelope changes value
> per sample period, and a ramp to value, which will generate an interrupt
> when it is crossed.  The micoprocessor is responsible for changing these
> values to create the composite envelope.
>     Algorithm Table:256 words by TBD bits.  This memory determines how
> everything is processed.  What gets added to what, who gets modulated by
> who.
>     Outputs: A stereo digital stream that can be interfaced to your
> regular 24 bit CD DACs.
> 
>     Well, I hope the list is actually up when I send this.
> 
>     -Jim
> 

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tsheets at saturn5.com                                  <- You have found me   
http://www.saturn5.com/tsheets/audio                 <- my .mp3 tracks
"I just don't have the discipline to be a hippie"    <- Homer J. Simpson



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sat Sep 16 01:48:03 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:48:03 +0200
Subject: Admin msg: synth-diy is up again
In-Reply-To: <39C15AF6.E85C364B@euronet.nl>
References: <39C15AF6.E85C364B@euronet.nl>
Message-ID: <20000916014803X.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Rick Jansen <rja at euronet.nl>
Subject: Admin msg: synth-diy is up again
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:10:46 +0200

> Dear all,

Rick,

> Sorry for the server outage, it's up again.
> I was away on vacation for a week and forgot 
> to do a cleanup, causing a full file system.

If you only would remember to let us know that we should remind you to do the
cleanups ;)

Good to have the list back up...

Cheers,
Magnus




From patchell at silcom.com  Sat Sep 16 01:54:27 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:54:27 -0700
Subject: Are we Live?
References: <39C129B7.96752294@silcom.com> <20000915164058.Q18556@atari.saturn5.com>
Message-ID: <39C2B6B3.70A9E3CE@silcom.com>

    I assume this must mean that the list is back up again!!!!

    oscillators:256 means 256 oscillators.  These are just simple accumulator type
oscilators (as outlined in Musical Applications of Microprocessors).  The
frequenency control and the phase accumulator will be 24 bits wide, which should
give more than addequate frequency resolution.

    Algorithm Table: You can think of it like a program.  It will be used to
combine the outputs of the oscilators.  Mostly what it does is determine if you
add the oscilator to the output, or use it to modulate another oscilator.  This
weekend I am going to try and draw a block diagram of the thing, hopefully, this
will spell it out a little clearer.

Troy Sheets wrote:

> Sounds cool, can you explain more about it?  When you say "oscillators:256"
> what exactly does that mean?
>
> Whats the alogrithm table?
>
> Any filters?
>
> -troy
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 12:40:39PM -0700, Jim Patchell wrote:
> >     Just checking to see if SYNTH-DIY is up and running.....
> >
> >     Well, just in case...
> >
> >     I have been doing a little work on putting a digital synth into an
> > Altera ACEX EP1K30.  I am pretty amazed, what I had in mind for a
> > minimal system seems to fit just fine.  Here are the specs:
> >
> >     Interface: 68000 processor bus, 16 bits.
> >     Look up table: Up to 16 meg per bank (a bank contains all of the
> > waveform for one cycle) with TBD number of banks.  Memory is 16 bits
> > wide.
> >     Oscilators:256, 24 bits, 96KHz sample rate.
> >     Envelope Generators:256, 16 bits.  There are to register backs, an
> > increment register, which controls how much the envelope changes value
> > per sample period, and a ramp to value, which will generate an interrupt
> > when it is crossed.  The micoprocessor is responsible for changing these
> > values to create the composite envelope.
> >     Algorithm Table:256 words by TBD bits.  This memory determines how
> > everything is processed.  What gets added to what, who gets modulated by
> > who.
> >     Outputs: A stereo digital stream that can be interfaced to your
> > regular 24 bit CD DACs.
> >
> >     Well, I hope the list is actually up when I send this.
> >
> >     -Jim
> >
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> tsheets at saturn5.com                                  <- You have found me
> http://www.saturn5.com/tsheets/audio                 <- my .mp3 tracks
> "I just don't have the discipline to be a hippie"    <- Homer J. Simpson

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Sat Sep 16 02:40:15 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:40:15 +1000
Subject: junction noise (really), cont'd.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000916004015.0098353c@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 03:26 PM 11/09/00 +0200, Haible Juergen  wrote:

>I fully agree. Who needs 3dB/Oct filtering in music at all ??
>
When I started this thread, I wasn't looking for 1/f noise in 
the audio band at all, I was wanting it in the LFO refgion
& I was hoping that audio band techniques might be extendible.

I can assure people that when you are using a LFO noise source,
 it matters a great deal what the spectrum is like.

paul perry melbourne australia




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Sat Sep 16 02:43:55 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:43:55 -0700
Subject: List good news
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A57@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

Nice to see Synth-DIY up and running again-what happened anyway?
Rory M.
(just got some parts to build John Blacet's Chaos- I have had the board for
quite a while now)
All I need now is time, precious time...



From digiboy at erols.com  Sat Sep 16 03:11:26 2000
From: digiboy at erols.com (Mike B (digiboy))
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:11:26 -0400
Subject: To Dave and Ken RE: SynthdIY
In-Reply-To: <001101c01e56$aefb4f20$e9c4f4d8@gtx>
Message-ID: <l03130307b5e87711248c@[209.122.226.110]>

If you can read this, SynthDIY must be working.
I'm just a lurker, I rarely post since I don't really DIY, I'm just a
analog synth  enthusiast/musician
I like the list just for picking up various bits of info  here and there.
I guess everyone is out enjoying the fall breezes or maybe there was a
power surge and they were all soldering and the wires in their little
workshops shorted  and knocked 'em out cold...hey let's go find out where
they live and steal all their goodies.....


Mike Berman
digiboy at erols.com







From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Sat Sep 16 04:56:04 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:56:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PolySix Repairs
In-Reply-To: <200009111304.PAA18831@dilbert.scp.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009152250400.7359-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Christian Hofmann wrote:

> BTW, does anybody know why it's always Polysixes with battery damage? I
> mean, there lots of synths with batteries from that time, but I have
> never heard of those problem with any other synth. Is it this certain
> type of battery?

  For two reasons: 1) the battery on a P6 is located in a *very* bad place
in terms of battery leakage causing major malfunctions. 2) The battery in
the Korg gear of the early-80s all used NiCad cells, which leak.  Other
machines such as the DX7, etc. use lithium batteries, which do not leak.

  I'll be posting a Korg Trident MkII battery replacement procedure before
long--I snapped all the photos a while back, but haven't had time to make
the web pages.  Thankfully, the Trident's battery is in a much less
prone-to-damage area.

  FWIW, the Poly 61's NiCad is also located in a bad place w.r.t. leakage
causing big failures.

Crow

/**/




From BonoVox9 at aol.com  Sat Sep 16 05:11:23 2000
From: BonoVox9 at aol.com (BonoVox9 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:11:23 EDT
Subject: casio cz-101 help!
Message-ID: <5a.ac60699.26f43edb@aol.com>

  hi

i have been trying and trying to send a message to the list about the casio 
cz-101!! has anybody recieved it?

this is the message:

                I'm curious if someone can give me information on a Casio 
CZ-101 synth. I just got one, I hear they are pretty good for a low price, 
but, I don't know anything about them. I do know that they are digital, but, 
that's about it.  Can anyone tell me anything interesting about these? The 
keyboard is kinda tiny, and I was wondering if it were possible to control 
the synth with the Roland PC-200 MkII or something similar instead of the 
half-size keys. 

I did find a patch editor program, only for DOS, though. Are there any for 
windows? 

What does multi-timbral mean? and how does this work with my casio via MIDI?

sorry i'm so naive, i'm learning.

any info would be appreciated.

Jason



From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Sat Sep 16 05:14:34 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:14:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Korg MS-20 power transformer, part 2
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009131411200.1063-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009152311270.7359-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


  FYI, I went ahead and took the machine all the way apart and figured out
the rewiring.  The unloaded secondary showed about 42VAC (21VAC to the
center tap).  The primary showed a resistance of 136 Ohms for the original
240VAC configuration.  tinning up the extra primary leads and measuring
about, I got the following:

   yellow     orange     brown      black <--transfomer primary leads
     |__15 Ohm__|__80 Ohm__|__41 Ohm__|
     |          |          |          |
     |          |__115VAC__|          |
     |                                |
     |_____________230VAC_____________|


  The 80 Ohm orange-brown pair seemed to be close enough to 1/2 of the 136
Ohm yellow-black pair to test out on my Variac set to 115VAC.  Secondary
showed 42VAC unloaded.  After reassembly, the MS20 seems to be doing fine
on 115VAC off a power strip.

  Now to dig out the Greenlee and punch the rear chassis plate for a
standard power socket and a DIN-5 at some point.

Crow

/**/




From grichter at execpc.com  Sat Sep 16 05:36:18 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:36:18 -0500
Subject: Hacking JD-800 wavetable?
Message-ID: <200009160336.e8G3aJp80724@pop1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

I recently got a Roland JD-800 keyboard and service manual in a trade.

The manual shows the PCM wavetables as 3 x 8 megabit mask ROMs. It should be
possible to replace the wavetable with 3 x 27C8001 EPROMs but I have been
unable to figure out the PCM encoding scheme used in the wavetable. (I tried
all the usual raw PCM formats)

Anybody have any information on this? My purpose is not to take their
wavetable, but to put my own in. I love the prettiness of this unit, but I
want to put in more strange loops and different types of wavetables.

Does Roland have a proprietary encoding scheme, and are there any software
utilities (perhaps for the S-50) that move between open .wav or .aiff format
and the proprietary scheme?

Thank you.




From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sat Sep 16 06:42:44 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:42:44 -0700
Subject: cheap: TL081 op-amps
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009111633090.13726-100000@washington.corrupt.net>
Message-ID: <002101c01f98$909be600$ab372bd1@rob>

Ill take em if you still have them!

rob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: andy <mcphive at corrupt.net>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 1:36 PM
Subject: cheap: TL081 op-amps


> 
> anyone have a use for surface-mount TL081C opamps? i have a tube
> of 95 of them which i just found. top reads "TI640B / TL081C" and bottom
> says "TAIWAN / B". 
> 
> $10.00 or best offer, will trade for a small quantity of DIP
> op-amps if you'd rather do that.
> 
> thanks,
> andy
> 
> 




From psnow at magma.ca  Sat Sep 16 07:06:50 2000
From: psnow at magma.ca (Peter Snow)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:06:50 -0400
Subject: Korg MS-20 power transformer question
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009131411200.1063-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <39C2FFEA.F695DB44@magma.ca>


Mine is a 115V only model so I don't know if this will help. There are only two primary
wires to the transformer and they are brown and black.

Cheers,

Peter

The Old Crow wrote:
> 
>   Hi folks,
> 
>   I've decided to rewire the AC line side of my MS-20 to use 115VAC as
> opposed to its stock 230VAC (unit was originally in Europe).  Looking at
> the transformer, I notice two extra, unused primary-tap wires that have
> been sealed up in heatshrink.
> 
>   Now, my other Korg gear uses this same style of primary taps to select
> the input voltage, so I figured this is also the case for the MS-20.  My
> question is, which two wire-colors are used for 115VAC?
> 
>   I could measure the winding resistance for each tap, but then I'd have
> to take the entire cabinet apart whereas I'm trying to get this done with
> just the right-side end cap removed.  Thought I'd ask to see if someone
> out there 1) has already done this and can tell me which wire colors, or
> 2) can take the right-side end cap off their 115V MS-20, look at the
> transformer and tell me what the connected wire colors are.  The service
> manual doesn't show this.
> 
> Crow
> 
> /**/



From jdec at mindspring.com  Sat Sep 16 07:29:07 2000
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:29:07 -0500
Subject: Modular Electronic Enclosures????
Message-ID: <39C30523.D62C57FD@mindspring.com>

Hey Gang,

I was wondering if anyone has a clue as to what company(ies) sell
modular enclosure systems????

I work for General Motors and we've got some *REALLY* nice looking
custom instrumentation units that were built up by Delco Electronics.
The enclosure system consists of chrome edges which attach to chrome
corner pieces.  Then a seperate piece of blue painted sheet metal
bolts into these edge rails.  The result is a very professional 
looking enclosure that would be *PERFECT* for a stand-alone modular
synth....

So who makes such a system and is it expensive????

Cheers,

Jeff R. Dec



From thescum at surfree.com  Sat Sep 16 07:30:18 2000
From: thescum at surfree.com (Byron G. Jacquot)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:30:18 -0400
Subject: Make synth building your career.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000916053018.009a7c04@smtp.surfree.com>

These were announced sometime during the list's downtime.  I figure this is
probably as appropriate a forum as there is for the subject.

http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/html/jobs.html

Byron Jacquot




From jdec at mindspring.com  Sat Sep 16 08:08:32 2000
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:08:32 -0500
Subject: Hacking JD-800 wavetable?
References: <200009160336.e8G3aJp80724@pop1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <39C30E60.F25FB138@mindspring.com>

> Does Roland have a proprietary encoding scheme?

I almost sure they do....

It seems like I've read/heard over the years that they have devised
an encoding scheme that reduces 16-bit samples down to 8-bit
storage resolution....

I could be wrong....

Cheers,

Jeff R. Dec



From egbert at teeselink.demon.nl  Sat Sep 16 09:17:26 2000
From: egbert at teeselink.demon.nl (Egbert Teeselink)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:17:26 +0200
Subject: tres newbie basic question
References: <F29fecaQOeErK24k5MA00002d83@hotmail.com> <008c01c01c50$d2e29540$3e75e03e@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <004a01c01fae$2ac50760$fb1eeed4@jeuk>

VCO, VCF...
I understand the 'O' and the 'F'. But what does the VC stand for? Is there
any difference between just some filter and a VCF?

egbert.




From edgarfov at zahav.net.il  Sat Sep 16 11:37:41 2000
From: edgarfov at zahav.net.il (e)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:37:41 +0200
Subject: asm1- dirfts on mods.
Message-ID: <200009160837.e8G8bGp11283@maggie.inter.net.il>

Hi all

i have posted the lfo bad influ on the asm.
tnx for all the advices.
as i investigated the drift facts ,and implanted my own build
regulator i (7815/7915) i have notice this new disturbinese in the force 

every pot. that has + to - 15 range and works as the modulator
such as the FC (filter section) pot , or pwm pot.
when the turn reaches the limit suddenly a small shift in the osc, is heared.
i scoped it , the change is measured like 30 to 40 mv shift.

another fact is when i use my lab regulator , this anomaly 
almost dissapear , at least from the hearing range.

tnx 

Aln






From mclilith at ezwv.com  Sat Sep 16 11:38:16 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 05:38:16 -0400
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
In-Reply-To: <39BD025D.42CD2146@tomy.net>
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]>
 <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA>
 <39BB5DF7.467560C0@wanadoo.fr>
 <39BB8002.A537FC6C@cityweb.de>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000916053217.01290f10@mail.ezwv.com>

At 12:03 PM 09/11/2000 , you wrote:

>it is such a unique sound that can only be described as
>guitar/organ/distortion. I would love to know what this is.

Perhaps they used a guitorgan? Seriously, such an instrument actually
exists. For those that haven't seen one, it is part electric guitar and
part Hammond organ. It's possible to play either normal guitar notes, organ
notes, or a mixture of the two, from guitar's the fretboard. I believe the
company that built them was located in Texas.

Has anyone else seen one?

Later,
Glen Berry



From guidogoe at xs4all.nl  Sat Sep 16 13:02:56 2000
From: guidogoe at xs4all.nl (Guido Goebertus)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:02:56 +0200
Subject: tres newbie basic question
In-Reply-To: <004a01c01fae$2ac50760$fb1eeed4@jeuk>
References: <F29fecaQOeErK24k5MA00002d83@hotmail.com>
 <008c01c01c50$d2e29540$3e75e03e@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000916130024.00a91ce0@pop.xs4all.nl>

At 09:17 16-9-00 +0200, you wrote:

>VCO, VCF...
>I understand the 'O' and the 'F'. But what does the VC stand for? Is there
>any difference between just some filter and a VCF?
>
>egbert.

VC stands for 'Voltage Controlled'.

Cheers,
Guido - /|\ Falcon030/STFM - AMD166 MMX




From BonoVox9 at aol.com  Sat Sep 16 14:07:04 2000
From: BonoVox9 at aol.com (BonoVox9 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:07:04 EDT
Subject: tres newbie basic question
Message-ID: <c5.94360d5.26f4bc68@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/16/00 2:19:23 AM Central Daylight Time, 
egbert at teeselink.demon.nl writes:

<< VCO, VCF...
 I understand the 'O' and the 'F'. But what does the VC stand for? Is there
 any difference between just some filter and a VCF?
 
 egbert.
  >>
voltage control?



From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Sat Sep 16 14:50:42 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:50:42 +1000
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000916125042.0096eae8@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 05:38 AM 16/09/00 -0400,Glen Berry wrote:

>Perhaps they used a guitorgan? Seriously, such an instrument actually
>exists. 
>Has anyone else seen one?
>
If you mean the Vox guitarogan, there is one here in Melbourne Australia
used by a mod band (remember mods & rockers?). Vox is UK though, not USA.

paul perry Melbourne Australia




From rja at euronet.nl  Sat Sep 16 15:07:02 2000
From: rja at euronet.nl (Rick Jansen)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:07:02 +0200
Subject: Admin message: unsubscribed users
Message-ID: <39C37076.C5BF8443@euronet.nl>

The following users have been unsubscribed due to mail problems
at their end: 

User mailbox exceeds allowed size: mango at mail.gelrevision.nl

The user(s) account is temporarily over quota.
<violethr at webspan.net>

  ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
neo_tribal at hotmail.com
    (expanded from: include)
biglu1118 at earthlink.net
    (expanded from: include)

donaldj at infomatch.com... Deferred: Connection reset by matrix.infomatch.com.
Message could not be delivered for 5 days
Message will be deleted from queue


Rick Jansen
-- 
Web: http://www.euronet.nl/~rja/
email: rja at euronet.nl



From patchell at silcom.com  Sat Sep 16 15:45:50 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 06:45:50 -0700
Subject: Make synth building your career.
References: <1.5.4.32.20000916053018.009a7c04@smtp.surfree.com>
Message-ID: <39C3798E.2EE1DFF2@silcom.com>

    Interesting looking jobs.  From some of the job descriptions, it also
sounds like you don't qualify if you have a life. :-)  If I lived a lot closer
to Ma., it would be something I would look into for sure.

"Byron G. Jacquot" wrote:

> These were announced sometime during the list's downtime.  I figure this is
> probably as appropriate a forum as there is for the subject.
>
> http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/html/jobs.html
>
> Byron Jacquot

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From patchell at silcom.com  Sat Sep 16 15:50:26 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 06:50:26 -0700
Subject: tres newbie basic question
References: <F29fecaQOeErK24k5MA00002d83@hotmail.com> <008c01c01c50$d2e29540$3e75e03e@debitel.net> <004a01c01fae$2ac50760$fb1eeed4@jeuk>
Message-ID: <39C37AA1.5C917C76@silcom.com>



Egbert Teeselink wrote:

> VCO, VCF...
> I understand the 'O' and the 'F'. But what does the VC stand for? Is there
> any difference between just some filter and a VCF?
>
> egbert.

    The VC stands for Voltage control.  Without the voltage control, the
modules would just be other oscillators and filters.  Voltage control is what
allows a synth to control the dynamics of the sound.

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sat Sep 16 17:14:45 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:14:45 -0700
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
References: <F285Te9pIFxXiZZyDw500006dd6@hotmail.com><20000911212848L.cfmd@swipnet.se><003301c01c39$bfc75840$8538363e@debitel.net> <20000912003336A.cfmd@swipnet.se> <008d01c01c50$d3abffc0$3e75e03e@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <002d01c01ff0$d9194d20$6a382bd1@rob>

Er, I *have* heard about this before to keep osc from locking. Actually, the
guy was talking about oscillators within a piece of radio gear. Injecting
noise on the PS line does work. Or, you could just overdrive the regulator a
little bit and keep it just at its maximum so it is slightly out of
regulation and noisy.
Or, maybe have a very small (like 1pf) cap somewhere on one osc cv input and
not on the other. I believe the Arp Oddysey is like that (as a matter of
fact, I am fairly sure it has, I had to remove one of these caps to make osc
2 quit warbling).

Or, you could just put a seperate regulator for each of the oscillators.
That might do it.

Lots of things you could try.. But, first off, I would say to put a very
small filter cap on the CV input of one osc (but not the other) and see what
happens. That *might* be enough.

BTW, has anyone actually seen the pulse that syncs the oscillators on a
scope? I have tried and tried, but it seems that merely the stray
capacitance of the probe makes it stop!

Rob

----- Original Message -----
From: jhaible <jhaible at debitel.net>
To: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
Cc: diy <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.


> > This discussion also makes me think of the MiniMoog, too weak
powersupply
> and
> > thus noisy powerlines which made it less prone to lock the oscillators
to
> > each other. When I was in Gothenburg and standing in line to get some
> coffie I
> > also came to think of the addition of noise into the oscillator CVs in
> order
> > to make them less eager to lock. Maybe that could also be of interest.
> However,
> > the noise level should not be too high.
>
> One should be able to introduce a controlled amount of psu noise at the
> reference
> pin of adjustable 3-pin voltage regulators (AC-coupling for the noise).
Not
> testet.
>
> JH.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Sep 16 18:45:23 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:45:23 -0400
Subject: Korg MS-20 power transformer, part 2
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009152311270.7359-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <39C3A3A2.93C6DC67@prodigy.net>

If you have the tranny wired for 120V, you can use a voltmeter to measure the
voltages at the other primary taps... it will not be isolated so watch out for
shock hazard,
but the voltages will be a much more accurate representation of the tap
ratings than
resistance will be. Maybe the tranny is a 120 / 200 / 240 unit ???

H^) harry

The Old Crow wrote:

>   FYI, I went ahead and took the machine all the way apart and figured out
> the rewiring.  The unloaded secondary showed about 42VAC (21VAC to the
> center tap).  The primary showed a resistance of 136 Ohms for the original
> 240VAC configuration.  tinning up the extra primary leads and measuring
> about, I got the following:
>
>    yellow     orange     brown      black <--transfomer primary leads
>      |__15 Ohm__|__80 Ohm__|__41 Ohm__|
>      |          |          |          |
>      |          |__115VAC__|          |
>      |                                |
>      |_____________230VAC_____________|
>
>   The 80 Ohm orange-brown pair seemed to be close enough to 1/2 of the 136
> Ohm yellow-black pair to test out on my Variac set to 115VAC.  Secondary
> showed 42VAC unloaded.  After reassembly, the MS20 seems to be doing fine
> on 115VAC off a power strip.
>
>   Now to dig out the Greenlee and punch the rear chassis plate for a
> standard power socket and a DIN-5 at some point.
>
> Crow
>
> /**/




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Sep 16 19:04:15 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:04:15 -0400
Subject: Modular Electronic Enclosures????
References: <39C30523.D62C57FD@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <39C3A80F.5F88C329@prodigy.net>

In the USA look for Bud Cabinets, Cabtron, Emcor-Crenlo, Hammond, Optima,

Schroff, also Rittal. There are others.

Yes Virginia... they are usually very expensive, and very heavy. Not
portable in the
least.

I'd looki into SKB cases, the roto-racks are cheap, the standard cases
have rack
rails front and rear (pissing me off since I have 4 of them WITHOUT the
rear rails,
a feature that should have ALWAYS been included !!!)  and they have shock
mount
cases, bigger than standard but wery well protected.

The steel cabinets can sometimes be had from people on/off list who tire
of the
weight !!! They are usually priced "to be gone now..." but you will
usually need a truck to go  get them.

I had a nice 5 bay workstation type setup, made of particle board covered
with
formica (very pro job, made by an ex-employee of a high end audio mixer
company.
Last I heard it was at "to be gone now" status. I'll enquire if anyone is
in the Detroit
michigan area and has a large truck (biggest pickup maybe, or U-Haul) to
get it. Serious
enquiries offlist.

H^) harry

BrightBoy wrote:

> Hey Gang,
>
> I was wondering if anyone has a clue as to what company(ies) sell
> modular enclosure systems????
>
> I work for General Motors and we've got some *REALLY* nice looking
> custom instrumentation units that were built up by Delco Electronics.
> The enclosure system consists of chrome edges which attach to chrome
> corner pieces.  Then a seperate piece of blue painted sheet metal
> bolts into these edge rails.  The result is a very professional
> looking enclosure that would be *PERFECT* for a stand-alone modular
> synth....
>
> So who makes such a system and is it expensive????
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff R. Dec




From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Sat Sep 16 19:13:52 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:13:52 +0100
Subject: PolySix Repairs
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4CEC@LON-MAIL07>

> >   The first thing to look for is bad IC pins or corroded tracks around
> > IC30 and IC31 as well as the resistor SIP R17.  The IC30/31 pair are bus
> > buffers that facilitate the connection between the front panel logic as
> > well as the patch RAM, etc.  Losing any one of these signals will cause
> > strange things to happen, like stuck LEDs........
> BTW, does anybody know why it's always Polysixes with battery damage? I
> mean, there lots of synths with batteries from that time, but I have
> never heard of those problem with any other synth. Is it this certain
> type of battery?<<<<
> 
this is all prompting me to get my poly6 back out of the attic and have
another go..... I replaced many parts, including those mentioned above, and
the thing is now the equivalent of a juno-6 when it should be a juno-60,
i.e. it works from the panel controls but can't remember anything. it's
probably something dead simple, but I'm afraid the track won't take any more
desoldering without falling apart.
I've never seen battery-damage in any other synth, tho' I spent almost 18
months on a juno-106, most of that waiting for parts to come by boat from
japan- wasn't this model built in italy? the thing was an early one and had
the combined cpu/rom chip. I ordered a new cpu and got one with no on-board,
sixty days later. so then I had to wait another sixty days for chip #2 and
then another sixty days for the dco and vca that I could now hear not
working. this all was down to a can of cola; the "synthesizer service
centre" were probably quite right to write it off- I persisted because I
hate seeing things die, and my mate was very grateful.

d. 



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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Sep 16 19:17:43 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:17:43 -0400
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
References: <F285Te9pIFxXiZZyDw500006dd6@hotmail.com><20000911212848L.cfmd@swipnet.se><003301c01c39$bfc75840$8538363e@debitel.net> <20000912003336A.cfmd@swipnet.se> <008d01c01c50$d3abffc0$3e75e03e@debitel.net> <002d01c01ff0$d9194d20$6a382bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <39C3AB37.307616@prodigy.net>

To see the reset pulse, You must use a 10X scope probe or the loading
will kill you. If you probe it, and the sync works but you see nothing, your
problem is scope speed or triggering. My ancient Telequpment scope can
just "barely" make out a sync pulse... but only in a dark room.

H^) harry

Rob wrote:

> Er, I *have* heard about this before to keep osc from locking. Actually, the
> guy was talking about oscillators within a piece of radio gear. Injecting
> noise on the PS line does work. Or, you could just overdrive the regulator a
> little bit and keep it just at its maximum so it is slightly out of
> regulation and noisy.
> Or, maybe have a very small (like 1pf) cap somewhere on one osc cv input and
> not on the other. I believe the Arp Oddysey is like that (as a matter of
> fact, I am fairly sure it has, I had to remove one of these caps to make osc
> 2 quit warbling).
>
> Or, you could just put a seperate regulator for each of the oscillators.
> That might do it.
>
> Lots of things you could try.. But, first off, I would say to put a very
> small filter cap on the CV input of one osc (but not the other) and see what
> happens. That *might* be enough.
>
> BTW, has anyone actually seen the pulse that syncs the oscillators on a
> scope? I have tried and tried, but it seems that merely the stray
> capacitance of the probe makes it stop!
>
> Rob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jhaible <jhaible at debitel.net>
> To: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
> Cc: diy <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 5:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
>
> > > This discussion also makes me think of the MiniMoog, too weak
> powersupply
> > and
> > > thus noisy powerlines which made it less prone to lock the oscillators
> to
> > > each other. When I was in Gothenburg and standing in line to get some
> > coffie I
> > > also came to think of the addition of noise into the oscillator CVs in
> > order
> > > to make them less eager to lock. Maybe that could also be of interest.
> > However,
> > > the noise level should not be too high.
> >
> > One should be able to introduce a controlled amount of psu noise at the
> > reference
> > pin of adjustable 3-pin voltage regulators (AC-coupling for the noise).
> Not
> > testet.
> >
> > JH.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >




From thudson at tomy.net  Sat Sep 16 19:36:08 2000
From: thudson at tomy.net (Thomas Hudson)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:36:08 -0700
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
References: <200009111510.IAA08786@shell9.ba.best.com> <39BF4BA1.E8FC790D@cityweb.de>
Message-ID: <39C3AF88.7661D6D8@tomy.net>



Ingo Debus wrote:

> So (to get back on topic again), how could I reproduce this sound? Any
> hints which fuzz box was used and how the undistorted organ sounded? I
> listened to the "Grey and Pink" album once again carefully, and there
> might be a hint to answer the second question: on the piece "Winter
> Wine" there's a keyboard solo with a sound which could be from a "cheesy
> organ", immediately afterwards the solo continues with "that sound".
> Maybe he just turned the bypass of the fuzz off?
> 
Probably start with a fuzz circuit popular for the time period. Late
sixties/early seventies era would be maybe a fuzz face. You can find 
schems for this on the 'Net. Geofex has the germanium transistors
necessary for the sound. (http://www.geofex.com).

Another guess would be the MXR Distortion+. It was popular in the mid 
seventies. Hillage used this fuzz a lot. It is based on back-to-back 
diodes.

Tomy



From michael.schmid at gmx.at  Sat Sep 16 20:08:46 2000
From: michael.schmid at gmx.at (Michael Schmid)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:08:46 +0200
Subject: PolySix Repairs
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4CEC@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <39C3B72E.3FA7AFBA@gmx.at>

fucking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






From michael.schmid at gmx.at  Sat Sep 16 20:14:40 2000
From: michael.schmid at gmx.at (Michael Schmid)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:14:40 +0200
Subject: PolySix Repairs
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4CEC@LON-MAIL07> <39C3B72E.3FA7AFBA@gmx.at>
Message-ID: <39C3B890.FBBF0A8F@gmx.at>

Sorry, this was my stupid brother.
Wanted to go on my nerves. Just ignore it.

Sorry,

Michael




From don at till.com  Sat Sep 16 20:43:29 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:43:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Caravan sound
In-Reply-To: <39C3B72E.3FA7AFBA@gmx.at> (message from Michael Schmid on Sat,
	16 Sep 2000 20:08:46 +0200)
Message-ID: <200009161843.LAA15585@shell9.ba.best.com>

   Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:40:51 +0200
   From: Ingo Debus <debus at cityweb.de>
   Don Tillman wrote:
   > I believe it's an organ through a fuzz box.  

   So (to get back on topic again), how could I reproduce this sound? 

Get an organ, get a fuzzbox...  I'm serious.

   Any hints which fuzz box was used and how the undistorted organ
   sounded? 

It doesn't matter much in this case.  With only a couple of exceptions
there's not a heck of a lot of difference between fuzzboxes.

You will also need to kill the fuzz frequencies over 4kHz or so.  So
either use a guitar or organ amp without tweeters or a "speaker
emulator".

   I listened to the "Grey and Pink" album once again carefully, and there
   might be a hint to answer the second question: on the piece "Winter
   Wine" there's a keyboard solo with a sound which could be from a "cheesy
   organ", immediately afterwards the solo continues with "that sound".
   Maybe he just turned the bypass of the fuzz off?

Yeah.

That first part of the solo on "Winter Wine" is a Hammond (not
cheezy!), for the second part he turned on the fuzz box, and a little
later he hits a wah-wah pedal for a brief bit.

Wicked solo, by the way.

   Remarkable: "That sound" is always played monophonic. But it's often
   accompanied by a Hammond playing chords. They didn't use a synthesizer
   in 1971, did they?

Prog Rock in general uses very few synths.  Canterbury especially.
When the machines are monophonic and it takes a while to set up the
sound you're sort of forced to use it sparingly.

Also Canterbury keyboard players tend to play monophonic organ solos.
You can tell that the player is really happy with the character and
sound of a single organ note and wants to see what he can do with it.
So running it through a fuzz box is the next step.  

Chords don't work through fuzzboxes because of intermodulation.  But a
good Canterbury keyboard player will use the "intermodulation chiffs"
from multiple notes as an expressive tool.  Listen closely for that;
it's pretty neat.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From jdec at mindspring.com  Sat Sep 16 21:48:23 2000
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:48:23 -0500
Subject: Modular Electronic Enclosures????
References: <39C30523.D62C57FD@mindspring.com> <39C3A80F.5F88C329@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39C3CE87.BD1F72B0@mindspring.com>

Harry,

Thanks for the reply but I think you missed the point....

The enclosure I'm refering to are made up of edge rails,
corner pieces (which attach to the ends of the edge rails), and 
sheet metal panels that bolt onto the edge rails on every side/plane....

Modular enclosure for modular synths if you will....

I might have to smuggle my new digital camera into work on Monday
and take a picture so you can see what I'm talking about in
perfect detail....

Jeff



From guidogoe at xs4all.nl  Sat Sep 16 22:04:32 2000
From: guidogoe at xs4all.nl (Guido Goebertus)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:04:32 +0200
Subject: Caravan sound
In-Reply-To: <200009161843.LAA15585@shell9.ba.best.com>
References: <39C3B72E.3FA7AFBA@gmx.at>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000916213642.00a8f1e0@pop.xs4all.nl>

Hi all,

Reading all those postings about organs, e-piano's and fuzz/wah boxes, Caravan
and Softmachine...
It reminds me of another 'old but gold' record: Matching Mole's Little Red 
Record.
Wonderful sounds on that one too!
It is my believe that those guys used relative simple stuff and they probably
tweaked the controls a bit while playing, lucky for them there was no 
Cubase VST
available at the time.. I mean, if it was, well, I'm pretty sure you get 
the point:-)

At 11:43 16-9-00 -0700, you wrote:
>    So (to get back on topic again), how could I reproduce this sound?
>
>Get an organ, get a fuzzbox...  I'm serious.

And perhaps a LP/BPF. Those distorted sounds are very rich in harmonics: fun
to tweak the frequency and resonance controls, by the way , a fuzz box sounds
better that way... especially on your home equipment.

Cheers,

Guido - /|\ Falcon030/STFM - AMD166 MMX




From dblum at artic.edu  Sat Sep 16 23:34:41 2000
From: dblum at artic.edu (Mush)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 16:34:41 -0500
Subject: Envelope filter question
Message-ID: <39C3E76B.3B0B588E@artic.edu>

I was wondering whether it is possible to modify an envelope filter pedal,
such as the DOD 25, to allow a separate key input for the envelope follower
stage, or perhaps the design makes it difficult to separate the program source
from the key source...

any suggestions?


---David



From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Sun Sep 17 00:28:01 2000
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:28:01 EDT
Subject: Caravan sound
Message-ID: <94.995e0b6.26f54df1@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/16/00 11:50:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, don at till.com 
writes:

<< Chords don't work through fuzzboxes because of intermodulation.  But a
 good Canterbury keyboard player will use the "intermodulation chiffs"
 from multiple notes as an expressive tool.  Listen closely for that;
 it's pretty neat. >>

Yes, it certainly is!  You can also hear a similar distorted organ solo in 
Traffic's "Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys", from their album of the same name. 
 The organ is played by Stevie Winwood.  It's especially cool when he kind of 
slurs his various monophonic solo notes into that intermodulated grunge, and 
then later just starts playing full chords, just for the beautiful noise of 
it.

Oh yeah, "Ummagumma"-era Pink Floyd seemed to like that kind of organ sound 
quite a bit, too.

Don is right about the type of organ or type of fuzzbox:  It doesn't much 
matter what types you use.  However, if you have a drawbar-type organ, it's a 
lot of fun to change the drawbar settings while you're playing through a 
fuzzbox.  The effect can sometimes sound kind of like a guitar breaking into 
harmonic feedback, or even harmonic feedback breaking into a guitar...

Michael Bacich




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Sun Sep 17 02:00:54 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:00:54 -0700
Subject: Jethro Tull concert(OT)
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A58@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

Tonight,  My wife and I are going to the Jethro Tull concert here in
Thousand Oaks, CA.
Nice venue-there are only 1800 seats. Alas I have balcony seats again.
If anyone would like a report let me know.
-Rory McDonald



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 17 04:17:14 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:17:14 -0400
Subject: Envelope filter question
References: <39C3E76B.3B0B588E@artic.edu>
Message-ID: <39C429AA.E7CFD25A@prodigy.net>

Sure you can.  I modified my MutronIII (blasphemy???) to add a fuzz
unit before the filter, so the original signal envelope is impressed on
the fuzz signal.  This is basically the same thing. If the DOD schematics
are on line I'd be happy to get more specific...

H^) harry

Mush wrote:

> I was wondering whether it is possible to modify an envelope filter pedal,
> such as the DOD 25, to allow a separate key input for the envelope follower
> stage, or perhaps the design makes it difficult to separate the program source
> from the key source...
>
> any suggestions?
>
> ---David




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 17 04:18:29 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:18:29 GMT
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.
Message-ID: <F1084SvcDfSDGAIXWb90000d4d2@hotmail.com>

Your freq doubler does not work, to be able to get it to work
you must be able to shift only 90 degrees and then level shift.
180 deg just creates triangles of a saw.

Pity, i had hoped that it would "have" worked,
anyone for a simple analog 90 deg shifter??

BJ

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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 17 04:20:15 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:20:15 -0400
Subject: Caravan sound
References: <94.995e0b6.26f54df1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39C42A5E.D0C71BAB@prodigy.net>

It was also common at that time to just overdrive the hell out of the
old tube Leslie speakers (like 147's) and let the tubes clip. Some were
hot rodded to enhance this effect.  If you pull all the stops out (so so
speak...lol)
you have plenty of signal to work with.

H^) harry

WeAreAs1 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/16/00 11:50:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, don at till.com
> writes:
>
> << Chords don't work through fuzzboxes because of intermodulation.  But a
>  good Canterbury keyboard player will use the "intermodulation chiffs"
>  from multiple notes as an expressive tool.  Listen closely for that;
>  it's pretty neat. >>
>
> Yes, it certainly is!  You can also hear a similar distorted organ solo in
> Traffic's "Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys", from their album of the same name.
>  The organ is played by Stevie Winwood.  It's especially cool when he kind of
> slurs his various monophonic solo notes into that intermodulated grunge, and
> then later just starts playing full chords, just for the beautiful noise of
> it.
>
> Oh yeah, "Ummagumma"-era Pink Floyd seemed to like that kind of organ sound
> quite a bit, too.
>
> Don is right about the type of organ or type of fuzzbox:  It doesn't much
> matter what types you use.  However, if you have a drawbar-type organ, it's a
> lot of fun to change the drawbar settings while you're playing through a
> fuzzbox.  The effect can sometimes sound kind of like a guitar breaking into
> harmonic feedback, or even harmonic feedback breaking into a guitar...
>
> Michael Bacich




From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Sun Sep 17 04:59:51 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (terry michaels)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:59:51 -0400
Subject: Caravan sound
Message-ID: <200009162300_MC2-B3A5-85AA@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:WeAreAs1 at aol.com
>Don is right about the type of organ or type of fuzzbox:  It doesn't much 
matter what types you use.  However, if you have a drawbar-type organ, it's
a 
lot of fun to change the drawbar settings while you're playing through a 
fuzzbox.  The effect can sometimes sound kind of like a guitar breaking
into 
harmonic feedback, or even harmonic feedback breaking into a guitar...

Michael Bacich
<

Hi Michael:

It doesn't even have to be an organ.  Listen to Tony Banks of Genesis
playing an electric piano through a fuzzbox on "The Musical Box".  That was
a technique he used regularly during the early days of Genesis.

Terry Michaels



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 17 05:05:23 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 05:05:23 +0200
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.
In-Reply-To: <F1084SvcDfSDGAIXWb90000d4d2@hotmail.com>
References: <F1084SvcDfSDGAIXWb90000d4d2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000917050523Z.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:18:29 GMT

Hi Bj?rn,

> Your freq doubler does not work, to be able to get it to work
> you must be able to shift only 90 degrees and then level shift.
> 180 deg just creates triangles of a saw.
> 
> Pity, i had hoped that it would "have" worked,
> anyone for a simple analog 90 deg shifter??

Which irony... I used the frequency doubler as an inspiration to an 90 degree
phase shifter for sawtooths, a version of that you will find in J?rgen
Bergfors LFO section.

Now, to fix this, change the comparators reference voltage, that is... have
the pos input of U1A go into a trimmer...

Also, J?rgen skiped the diode, which is a smart move. The comparator will go
rail-to-rail without the diode, so then the DC correction R3 could be skiped.

So, you say I have made a saw-to-tri converter... hohoum...

Maybe time to breadboard this thing...

Cheers,
Magnus



From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Sun Sep 17 05:08:52 2000
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:08:52 EDT
Subject: Caravan sound
Message-ID: <25.ae08695.26f58fc4@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/16/00 7:20:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
harrybissell at prodigy.net writes:

<< It was also common at that time to just overdrive the hell out of the
 old tube Leslie speakers (like 147's) and let the tubes clip. Some were
 hot rodded to enhance this effect.  If you pull all the stops out (so so
 speak...lol)
 you have plenty of signal to work with. >>

Oh yeah, of course.  But that's quite a different sound from the fuzzbox 
organ.  Fuzzbox organ is much cheesier, more nasal, and almost impossible to 
play chords with.  Even the big two-fisted jazz and gospel guys like to 
disort their Leslies, and they can play any chords they want without losing 
too much harmonic definition in the chords.  

In my opinion, the ultimate overdriven Leslie tune:  "Chest Fever", by The 
Band.  Interestingly, Garth Hudson, the Band's organist, has always favored 
dorky theater organs such as Lowery's and Gulbransen's over Hammond B3's.  I 
think the "Chest Fever" organ was a Lowery, although it so freaking ballsy, 
most people refuse to believe that it could be anything other than a B3.

Best regards,
Michael Bacich





From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 17 05:32:01 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:32:01 -0400
Subject: Caravan sound
References: <200009162300_MC2-B3A5-85AA@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <39C43B30.F8C10A19@prodigy.net>

I heard "Paul Winter Consort" play a Fender Piano Bass through a
fuzzbox. What an awesome sound.

H^) harry

terry michaels wrote:

> Message text written by INTERNET:WeAreAs1 at aol.com
> >Don is right about the type of organ or type of fuzzbox:  It doesn't much
> matter what types you use.  However, if you have a drawbar-type organ, it's
> a
> lot of fun to change the drawbar settings while you're playing through a
> fuzzbox.  The effect can sometimes sound kind of like a guitar breaking
> into
> harmonic feedback, or even harmonic feedback breaking into a guitar...
>
> Michael Bacich
> <
>
> Hi Michael:
>
> It doesn't even have to be an organ.  Listen to Tony Banks of Genesis
> playing an electric piano through a fuzzbox on "The Musical Box".  That was
> a technique he used regularly during the early days of Genesis.
>
> Terry Michaels




From jhaible at t-online.de  Sun Sep 17 13:24:41 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:24:41 +0200
Subject: test new sub
Message-ID: <004c01c02099$e4e56d60$08f19e3e@debitel.net>

test new sub





From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep 17 19:34:22 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:34:22 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
Message-ID: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com>

    Here is the url for a still breif, but more detailed explanation of
what I have in mind.  There is also a link to a block diagram that
hopefully will clear up what I am trying to say.

http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/dsynth/dsynth.html

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From dblum at artic.edu  Sun Sep 17 20:57:17 2000
From: dblum at artic.edu (Mush)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:57:17 -0500
Subject: Envelope filter question
Message-ID: <39C5140C.12D3A1B7@artic.edu>

Well, i haven't been able to find schematics for the DOD FX25 online.  I have
found a link to the DOD 440 envelope filter,
http://www.crazychucks.com/guitar/DODENVF.GIF
But have no idea how closely related this design is to the FX25

DAvid



From bnillson at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 17 22:09:49 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:09:49 GMT
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.
Message-ID: <F225pRnzh0Cpg0RnLJm00001e28@hotmail.com>

Hi.

>Which irony... I used the frequency doubler as an inspiration to an >90 
>degree phase shifter for sawtooths, a version of that you will >find in 
>J?rgen Bergfors LFO section.
>
>Now, to fix this, change the comparators reference voltage, that >is... 
>have the pos input of U1A go into a trimmer...

Comparators!!! arrrhhh,,! What the hell.!, I have misintepeteted
your design intention, ofcourse it works when its a comparator function..

>Also, J?rgen skiped the diode, which is a smart move. The comparator >will 
>go rail-to-rail without the diode, so then the DC correction R3 >could be 
>skiped.

Yepp.

>So, you say I have made a saw-to-tri converter... hohoum...

Not anymore, since i "now" see that you actually drive the sawtoth
directly onto the neg input of the TL082. i had intepreteted it
as that a input resistor was missing!

Sorry my fault.

>Maybe time to breadboard this thing...

Haven't bread boarded yet, will now when its a comparator function.

BJ (going blind in the desperate shearch of a freq doubler)


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From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 17 22:48:57 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:48:57 +0200
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.
In-Reply-To: <F225pRnzh0Cpg0RnLJm00001e28@hotmail.com>
References: <F225pRnzh0Cpg0RnLJm00001e28@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000917224857B.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Magnus freq doubler.
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:09:49 GMT

> Hi.
> 
> >Which irony... I used the frequency doubler as an inspiration to an >90 
> >degree phase shifter for sawtooths, a version of that you will >find in 
> >J?rgen Bergfors LFO section.
> >
> >Now, to fix this, change the comparators reference voltage, that >is... 
> >have the pos input of U1A go into a trimmer...
> 
> Comparators!!! arrrhhh,,! What the hell.!, I have misintepeteted
> your design intention, ofcourse it works when its a comparator function..

Phew... I just thought I made a fool of myself just because I did not actually
build it..

The whole trick is to build a 50 % PWM to be used to add another reset jump.

When one makes a sawtooth phase shifter, one takes the same idea but instead
moves the jump. This causes a DC error, but since this is linearly dependent
with the phase voltage, it is just a matter of adding the phase voltage at the
output summing to be home free.

> >Also, J?rgen skiped the diode, which is a smart move. The comparator >will 
> >go rail-to-rail without the diode, so then the DC correction R3 >could be 
> >skiped.
> 
> Yepp.
> 
> >So, you say I have made a saw-to-tri converter... hohoum...
> 
> Not anymore, since i "now" see that you actually drive the sawtoth
> directly onto the neg input of the TL082. i had intepreteted it
> as that a input resistor was missing!

Ah.

I guess I should have made a more comprehensive explanation of the curcuit,
others would have been even more confused about this little trick.

> Sorry my fault.

Well, OK. You got my tired brain confused too, so...

> >Maybe time to breadboard this thing...
> 
> Haven't bread boarded yet, will now when its a comparator function.
> 
> BJ (going blind in the desperate shearch of a freq doubler)

Hopefully will this one do the trick, or at least act as an source of
inspiration. Maybe I should redo it without the diode...

Cheers,
Magnus




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 17 22:56:29 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:56:29 GMT
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.
Message-ID: <F293XxlU1IXZNwX8ZUw00011070@hotmail.com>

Hi.

>>>Now, to fix this, change the comparators reference voltage, that >>is... 
>>>have the pos input of U1A go into a trimmer...
>>
>>Comparators!!! arrrhhh,,! What the hell.!, I have misintepeteted
>>your design intention, ofcourse it works when its a comparator 
>> >>function..

>Phew... I just thought I made a fool of myself just because I did not 
>actually build it..

Hahaha, "who" are now transpiring salt water from his back? :-D
(not to mention all the salt i allready have transpired.)

>The whole trick is to build a 50 % PWM to be used to add another >reset 
>jump. When one makes a sawtooth phase shifter, one takes the >same idea but 
>instead moves the jump. This causes a DC error, but >since this is linearly 
>dependent with the phase voltage, it is just >a matter of adding the phase 
>voltage at the
>output summing to be home free.

Exactly, this is allso done in the ARP chroma, but the
chroma used to many components for what i was looking for.

Actually, my reason for this frequency doubling and soft sync
issues is that i have been laborating around a design for some
time now, that uses "one" analoge oscillator to create additive synthesis in 
a combination of 0-180 deg phase shifting and voltage controlled soft sync 
to create new waveforms. So i had tried a
load of different solutions  and become desperate for a simple
sawtoth freq doubler.Ofcourse one can do all the stuff with a
bucket load of componenets, but the trick is to do it all with a absolute 
minimum of components. So far the oscillator sounds wery interesting and i 
have managed to get over 40 different wave shapes, quite intresting is the 
simple continous phase shifting (0-180 deg.)

Phase modulation of both square and sawtoth is possible, as you
know it produces modest vibrato effects, if one was just able to
shift 360 degrees!

Some of the problems i have to solve is amplitudes,
some sort of DC ALC seams to be a soulution.

>I guess I should have made a more comprehensive explanation of the 
> >curcuit,others would have been even more confused about this little 
> >trick.

Just some brief explenation would be enough.

> > >Maybe time to breadboard this thing...
> >
Ah, so you ment, "you" was going to bread board it,
i tought you ment me!!

> > BJ (going blind in the desperate shearch of a freq doubler)

>Hopefully will this one do the trick, or at least act as an source of
>inspiration. Maybe I should redo it without the diode...

What important is exact amplitude balancing of the saw and square.
The diode is ok if one wants unipolar wave only .

Why not using a three way switch?

BJ
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From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 17 23:32:25 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:32:25 +0200
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.
In-Reply-To: <F293XxlU1IXZNwX8ZUw00011070@hotmail.com>
References: <F293XxlU1IXZNwX8ZUw00011070@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000917233225Y.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Magnus freq doubler.
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:56:29 GMT

> Hi.

Hi there,

> >Phew... I just thought I made a fool of myself just because I did not 
> >actually build it..
> 
> Hahaha, "who" are now transpiring salt water from his back? :-D
> (not to mention all the salt i allready have transpired.)

Well, since I don't take this that serious with myself there is no heavy
transpiration due to this little incident... ;-D

> >The whole trick is to build a 50 % PWM to be used to add another >reset 
> >jump. When one makes a sawtooth phase shifter, one takes the >same idea but 
> >instead moves the jump. This causes a DC error, but >since this is linearly 
> >dependent with the phase voltage, it is just >a matter of adding the phase 
> >voltage at the
> >output summing to be home free.
> 
> Exactly, this is allso done in the ARP chroma, but the
> chroma used to many components for what i was looking for.

Well, both the doubler and the phase shifter is a low-count job. I put some
effort into keeping the component count down for both and dipping the diode
will also allow the trowing of a resistor and the curcuit should preform
better ;)

> Actually, my reason for this frequency doubling and soft sync
> issues is that i have been laborating around a design for some
> time now, that uses "one" analoge oscillator to create additive synthesis in 
> a combination of 0-180 deg phase shifting and voltage controlled soft sync 
> to create new waveforms. So i had tried a
> load of different solutions  and become desperate for a simple
> sawtoth freq doubler.Ofcourse one can do all the stuff with a
> bucket load of componenets, but the trick is to do it all with a absolute 
> minimum of components. So far the oscillator sounds wery interesting and i 
> have managed to get over 40 different wave shapes, quite intresting is the 
> simple continous phase shifting (0-180 deg.)
> 
> Phase modulation of both square and sawtoth is possible, as you
> know it produces modest vibrato effects, if one was just able to
> shift 360 degrees!

Well, my sawtooth phase shifter is a 360 degree phase shifter, or at least
very close to 360 degree... just vary the comparator voltage over the full
sawtooth voltage and the comparator drops out the PWM wave and the summing
network will do the rest. Maybe it is time for me to make a schematic of that
and put up along the others?

> Some of the problems i have to solve is amplitudes,
> some sort of DC ALC seams to be a soulution.
> 
> >I guess I should have made a more comprehensive explanation of the 
> > >curcuit,others would have been even more confused about this little 
> > >trick.
> 
> Just some brief explenation would be enough.

Well, if I only spend a few more sentences things will be much clearer for
most people.

> > > >Maybe time to breadboard this thing...
> > >
> Ah, so you ment, "you" was going to bread board it,
> i tought you ment me!!

No... just saying that maybe I should have breadboarded it before putting the
schematic up... so I just though I was out in trouble just for being too lazy
to breadboard it myself.

> > > BJ (going blind in the desperate shearch of a freq doubler)
> 
> >Hopefully will this one do the trick, or at least act as an source of
> >inspiration. Maybe I should redo it without the diode...
> 
> What important is exact amplitude balancing of the saw and square.
> The diode is ok if one wants unipolar wave only .

Ah, but the thing is that the whole thing is balanced!
I get a DC error which I adjust by the resistor to negative feed. Also, this
is an ugly thing since I assume the saw to go from -5 V to +5 V as well as
assuming the powerlines to be at +/- 15V. That is the ugly side of it.
Removing the diode so that I get a (fairly) balanced output from the comparator
also removes the DC error from that signal, so then I can remove the DC
correction. I actually spent part of my efforts just to ensure that I still had
DC offset at 0V!

When J?rgen took the doubler schematic and turned it into a phase shifter based
on my hints he realized this and things became even simpler.

> Why not using a three way switch?

Uhm, I am not sure that I know how it would help... ah well..

Cheers,
Magnus



From patchell at silcom.com  Mon Sep 18 00:21:09 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:21:09 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com> <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com>

    Glad to hear I am not the only one who is not afraid to utter the "D"
word. :-)

jbv wrote:

> >     Here is the url for a still breif, but more detailed explanation of
> > what I have in mind.  There is also a link to a block diagram that
> > hopefully will clear up what I am trying to say.
> >
> > http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/dsynth/dsynth.html
> >
>
> Jim,
>
> I've been following your recent messages about the digital
> synth project with the greatest interest, as I've been brainstorming
> on a similar project for a while.
>
> I'm planing to post some comments for at lest a week but
> have been too busy to complete anything consistent...
>
> Should post something within the next few days anyway.
>
> jbv

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Sep 18 00:58:52 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:58:52 +0200
Subject: asm1-VCO DRIFT!!
In-Reply-To: <200009172211.e8HMBFk19950@star.inter.net.il>
References: <200009172211.e8HMBFk19950@star.inter.net.il>
Message-ID: <20000918005852J.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: e <edgarfov at zahav.net.il>
Subject: asm1-VCO DRIFT!!
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:12:22 +0200

> Hi all

Hi there...

> i have  implanted my own build
> regulator i (7815/7915) and i have notice this new disturbinese in the force 
> 
> every pot. that has + to - 15 range
> such as the FC (filter section) pot , or pwm pot. causes the vco to drift
> slightly while tweaking.
> when the turn reaches the limit suddenly a small shift in the osc, is heared.
> i scoped it , the change is measured like 30 to 40 mv shift.
> (checking the coarse tune middle leg)

I would not expect this unless the powersupply is kind of weak and is really
sensitive to change in load. The oscillator itself compensates for its direct
+15V dependence, but is not compensating for the +/- 15V dependence it has
through the pots.

> another fact is when i use my huge lab regulator , this anomaly 
> almost dissapear , at least from the hearing range.

Now, check the supply voltage (both +15V and -15V), try with both supplies,
and check if any tweaking has an abnormal change in the voltage.
I would also check if some part (on the ASM-1 and your supply) gets abnormally
hot. There is nothing on the ASM-1 that should get very hot at all.

Cheers,
Magnus




From edgarfov at zahav.net.il  Mon Sep 18 01:12:22 2000
From: edgarfov at zahav.net.il (e)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:12:22 +0200
Subject: asm1-VCO DRIFT!!
Message-ID: <200009172211.e8HMBFk19950@star.inter.net.il>

Hi all
i have  implanted my own build
regulator i (7815/7915) and i have notice this new disturbinese in the force 

every pot. that has + to - 15 range
such as the FC (filter section) pot , or pwm pot. causes the vco to drift
slightly while tweaking.
when the turn reaches the limit suddenly a small shift in the osc, is heared.
i scoped it , the change is measured like 30 to 40 mv shift.
(checking the coarse tune middle leg)

another fact is when i use my huge lab regulator , this anomaly 
almost dissapear , at least from the hearing range.

tnx 

Aln






From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Mon Sep 18 02:01:42 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:01:42 +0000
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr>



>     Here is the url for a still breif, but more detailed explanation of
> what I have in mind.  There is also a link to a block diagram that
> hopefully will clear up what I am trying to say.
>
> http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/dsynth/dsynth.html
>

Jim,

I've been following your recent messages about the digital
synth project with the greatest interest, as I've been brainstorming
on a similar project for a while.

I'm planing to post some comments for at lest a week but
have been too busy to complete anything consistent...

Should post something within the next few days anyway.

jbv





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Sep 18 02:21:48 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:21:48 +0200
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Message-ID: <20000918022148M.cfmd@swipnet.se>

Hi there!

I have now provided the schematics for a simpler frequency doubler as well as
an equally simple phase shifter. Both work for sawtooth signal.

Also, I have provided a "Curcuit Theory of Operation" which gives a brief
description of how these works.

I really should redo the calculations on the resistor values, since I think I
may have gotten some of them wrong one way or another, but the general idea
should be correct and I can allways fix the little details at some later time.

Now, the phase shifter operates from -180 degrees to +180 degrees, or if you
so wishes, from 0 degrees to 360 degrees.

A side consequence of both these curcuits is that you have a PWM signal
available, good to know if you need one.

One should know that the resistors is intended to be scaled for -5V -> + 5V
sawtooth and +/- 15V of op-amp supply voltage (and thus assumed output swing).

Both these are a bit cheap-ish, so droping a bunch of trimmer setups on these
is required if you require better precission.

Cheers,
Magnus





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Sep 18 02:31:00 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:31:00 +0200
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
In-Reply-To: <20000918022148M.cfmd@swipnet.se>
References: <20000918022148M.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <20000918023100X.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:21:48 +0200

> Hi there!
> 
> I have now provided the schematics for a simpler frequency doubler as well as
> an equally simple phase shifter. Both work for sawtooth signal.

Grrr.... I forgot to give you the URL!!! Here it is:

http://home.swipnet.se/cfmd/synths/schematics/

Now of for the bed.

Cheers,
Magnus




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 18 05:09:52 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:09:52 -0700
Subject: mini moog clone
Message-ID: <000901c0211d$ee9b57a0$0200a8c0@pc102>

Hi List! Nice to have you back..;-)
If I wanted to clone the mini and I wanted to remain
faithful to the original but also wanted to avoid things 
people dislike. What would be some of the things I 
might want to consider? So far I'm thinking swap the 
vcos, change it to 1v/oct, change the power supply to
+/-12V, bolt it to a 3r panel, strap on a midi interface 
and call it done. I'm trying to do the least amount of 
damage I can to the classic design...;-)

Tom




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Sep 18 05:52:53 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:52:53 -0400
Subject: mini moog clone
References: <000901c0211d$ee9b57a0$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <39C59194.7F336F9C@prodigy.net>

I'd avoid using the Fairchild uA726 Temperature Controlled Differential
Pair,
for starters....

;^P                          (teehee...)

H^) harry

tomg wrote:

> Hi List! Nice to have you back..;-)
> If I wanted to clone the mini and I wanted to remain
> faithful to the original but also wanted to avoid things
> people dislike. What would be some of the things I
> might want to consider? So far I'm thinking swap the
> vcos, change it to 1v/oct, change the power supply to
> +/-12V, bolt it to a 3r panel, strap on a midi interface
> and call it done. I'm trying to do the least amount of
> damage I can to the classic design...;-)
>
> Tom




From jlarryh at iquest.net  Mon Sep 18 06:02:36 2000
From: jlarryh at iquest.net (J. Larry Hendry)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:02:36 -0500
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]><002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA><39BB5DF7.467560C0@wanadoo.fr><39BB8002.A537FC6C@cityweb.de> <4.1.20000916053217.01290f10@mail.ezwv.com>
Message-ID: <017201c02125$4b0fb100$67372bd1@oemcomputer>

I have a friend here in Indiana who actually owns one in fine working order.
Larry Hendry


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Glen <mclilith at ezwv.com>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...


At 12:03 PM 09/11/2000 , you wrote:

>it is such a unique sound that can only be described as
>guitar/organ/distortion. I would love to know what this is.

Perhaps they used a guitorgan? Seriously, such an instrument actually
exists. For those that haven't seen one, it is part electric guitar and
part Hammond organ. It's possible to play either normal guitar notes, organ
notes, or a mixture of the two, from guitar's the fretboard. I believe the
company that built them was located in Texas.

Has anyone else seen one?

Later,
Glen Berry





From sbernardi at home.net  Mon Sep 18 06:31:15 2000
From: sbernardi at home.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:31:15 -0700
Subject: Sources for tempco resistors
Message-ID: <39C59A93.E1FE1273@home.net>

What is a good source for tempco resistors in small quantities (like
4-5)? Someplace in the US would be preferable.

--
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at home.net





From dafc at sinectis.com.ar  Mon Sep 18 06:59:39 2000
From: dafc at sinectis.com.ar (David Castillo)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:59:39 -0300
Subject: Oberheim Ob-7
Message-ID: <001901c0212d$416a3be0$94f2f4d8@gtx>

I have bought an Oberheim Ob-8 for a quite good price.
It has 2 main problems:

a) The keys are dirty, so many of them doesn't sound at the first touch. I'm
new on repairing keys, so I don't know how to detach them from the unit and
how to fix the problem.

b) I press the auto-tune button and it seems that the #1 voice can not be
calibrated, so following the user's manual instructions thar voice is
shutted off (and I have only a 7 keys poliphony). If that happens, how can I
begin to try to solve this?

I have both, the users manual and the repair manual.

The software revision is C-6, can you tell me something of this. I would
appreciate any data you can give me.



Thank you!!!




From ka4hjh at gte.net  Mon Sep 18 07:09:45 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:09:45 -0400
Subject: mini moog clone
In-Reply-To: <39C59194.7F336F9C@prodigy.net>
References: <000901c0211d$ee9b57a0$0200a8c0@pc102>
 <39C59194.7F336F9C@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <p04330101b5eb52b4e6b1@[63.28.152.222]>

>I'd avoid using the Fairchild uA726 Temperature Controlled Differential
>Pair,
>for starters....

No way, that's a fundamental part of the *Moog sound*, dude. What you 
need is an elaborate clone made from matched discrete components, 
potted in depleted uranium. Be sure to mount the noise source close 
to the uranium.

Only need three or four of them...


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The 'Still Feeling Punchy after almost a WEEK with Synth DIY' Mac Doctor"



From J.Proveniers at orga.nl  Mon Sep 18 08:25:41 2000
From: J.Proveniers at orga.nl (Jeroen Proveniers)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:25:41 +0200
Subject: Hacking JD-800 wavetable?
Message-ID: <B17963D44143D311AE320008C7E1CD3E018CE0@EXCHANGE_OBV>

> I recently got a Roland JD-800 keyboard and service manual.
> 
> The manual shows the PCM wavetables as 3 x 8 megabit mask 
> ROMs. It should be
> possible to replace the wavetable with 3 x 27C8001 EPROMs but 
> I have been
> unable to figure out the PCM encoding scheme used in the wavetable.
> Anybody have any information on this? My purpose is not to take their
> wavetable, but to put my own in. I love the prettiness of 
> this unit, but I
> want to put in more strange loops and other wavetables.
> 
> Does Roland have a proprietary encoding scheme, and are there 
> any software
> utilities (perhaps for the S-50) that move between open .wav 

Maybe the wavetable format is logarithmic. With 8 bit log you get 13 bits
linear. Have  you already tried soldering one out, reading it with eprom
programmer, and just read the file into a sample editor? You must also know
the headers at the beginning of the rom, sample, etc. to do this
successfully.

JJ



From debus at cityweb.de  Mon Sep 18 08:26:23 2000
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:26:23 +0200
Subject: Hacking JD-800 wavetable?
References: <200009160336.e8G3aJp80724@pop1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <39C5B58F.D08A7617@cityweb.de>



Grant Richter wrote:
> Does Roland have a proprietary encoding scheme, and are there any software
> utilities (perhaps for the S-50) that move between open .wav or .aiff format
> and the proprietary scheme?

The S-50 (it's a sampler) uses straightforward 12-bit encoded samples at
30 kHz sampling rate, at least in the MIDI (Sysex) transmission and on
its floppy disks. There are some utilities out there to convert from/to
WAV etc., on the Mac there's DSoundPro for instance.

Ingo





From debus at cityweb.de  Mon Sep 18 08:50:33 2000
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:50:33 +0200
Subject: Caravan sound
References: <200009161843.LAA15585@shell9.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <39C5BB38.E88C86ED@cityweb.de>



Don Tillman wrote:
> That first part of the solo on "Winter Wine" is a Hammond (not
> cheezy!), for the second part he turned on the fuzz box, and a little
> later he hits a wah-wah pedal for a brief bit.

I shouldn't have used the term "cheesy" here. Of course a Hammond is
*not* cheesy ;-). But since you wrote about a Lowrey organ and someone
else wrote me that Sinclair used a Lowrey too... I never heard a
Lowrey... how do they sound?

But is this really a Hammond in the first part of the solo? (Listened
again to it, headphones this time...) Yes, it could be a Hammond with
strange registration. There's a "normal" sounding Hammond playing chords
during the solo too.

Time to do some experiments.

Ingo





From modlar at gmx.net  Mon Sep 18 08:53:31 2000
From: modlar at gmx.net (modlar at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:53:31 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: (AL OT) resistor clock
Message-ID: <17653.969260011@www10.gmx.net>

Hi all,

a little of topic

Perhaps one or two of you need a resistor clock as a 
java script application. Then have a look on my HP.
( http://www.geocities.com/drjmschmitz -> GIMMICK )
it is better to download the zipped file, as it works
much faster (only MS Explorer !).

have a nice time, J.S.

P.S.:
The first time you enter the resistor clock, it takes 
some time, due to loading a lot of pictures. Then, even
in the online version, the speed is OK.

-- 
Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net




From jorgen.bergfors at idg.se  Mon Sep 18 08:56:22 2000
From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se (jorgen.bergfors at idg.se)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 8:56:22 +0200
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Message-ID: <TFSMVDVG@idg.se>

Hi Magnus and everybody else.

You really need a faster comparator than a TL082 for this to work satisfactorily. I used an LM318, and that was for LFO frequencies.
For audio frequencies something even faster would be desirable. At least if you intend to do any further waveshaping on the output.

/Jorgen



From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Sep 18 10:47:44 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:47:44 +0100
Subject: mini moog clone
References: <000901c0211d$ee9b57a0$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <009901c0214d$8659bbc0$3f36883e@default>

>If I wanted to clone the mini and I wanted to remain faithful to the
original but also wanted to avoid things people dislike.

Which version of the VCO are you going to use? The first one looks very
cool, except I couldn't get the beggar to work. The second one is
supposed to sound better, which is debatable, and the third is more like
a Prodigy.

As for which bits to add and take away: Skip the A440 osc... add VCO
sync... add PWM and a decent LFO... add velocity sensitivity to the
VCF-EG and VCA-EG. Take a look at the Ron Rivera modded ones, they look
particularly cool.

But, it wouldn't be a Minimoog then. I think one of the key things to
the minimoogs sound is the user interface. Its so simple to operate, and
at the same time so limiting... but that is the point, it delivers the
sound that people like with no fuss. No complex stuff at all. Simple yet
nice sounding. And it looks so nice too... that little pop up front
panel and all that wood. The midimoog looks complete and utter cack in
comparison.

BTW: You can almost build a whole minimoog from my own modules. VCOs and
MultiLadder are very very minimoog sounding.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Mon Sep 18 12:31:40 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:31:40 +0200
Subject: Make synth building your career.
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028467A8@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>    Interesting looking jobs.  From some of the job descriptions,
it also
	>sounds like you don't qualify if you have a life. :-)  If I lived a
lot closer
	>to Ma., it would be something I would look into for sure.

Is synth building still fun when you do it full time / overtime ??

JH.






From chris at scp.de  Mon Sep 18 12:36:04 2000
From: chris at scp.de (Christian Hofmann)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:36:04 +0200
Subject: Admin msg: synth-diy is up again
In-Reply-To: <39C15AF6.E85C364B@euronet.nl>
References: <39C15AF6.E85C364B@euronet.nl>
Message-ID: <200009181036.MAA24024@dilbert.scp.de>

On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:10:46 +0200
Rick Jansen <rja at euronet.nl> wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> Sorry for the server outage, it's up again.
> I was away on vacation for a week and forgot 
> to do a cleanup, causing a full file system.

Hi Rick & all,
good to see the DIY list back.

And looking at all the week's delayed stuff - here you have the
undebatable scientific proof that emitting test messages indeed _does_
resurrect a dead list... ;-)

Christian



From fredrik at elmelidmusik.se  Mon Sep 18 12:36:05 2000
From: fredrik at elmelidmusik.se (Fredrik Norrgren)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:36:05 +0200
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <39C5F00E.A2F51556@elmelidmusik.se>

unsubscribe synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl-diy





From czech at Micronas.Com  Mon Sep 18 12:43:05 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:43:05 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: diy site with freq divide by CV
Message-ID: <200009181043.MAA16208@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::Didn't Juergen make one of those?

Yes, but his was a staircase generator,
this seems to be a monoflop pulse windowing approach.
I haven't checked what's inside the ICs, though.

m.c.




From czech at Micronas.Com  Mon Sep 18 12:47:37 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:47:37 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.
Message-ID: <200009181047.MAA16213@ikarus.intermetall.de>


:::Ah, no I see why I was adressed personally in the orig. mail.
:::No, I have not found a magic potion to avoid soft sync at increadibly
:::low levels. The FS-1 does not suffer from that phenomenon simply
:::because there are no two separate oscillators (all done in baseband,
:::with a single quadrature VCO)
:::No big help for the synth VCO problem, I fear.

A talked to HAM people the other day. They spend a lot of thought
for their local oscillator frequency planing, because avoiding
locking of two neareby tuned VFOs is virtually impossible.

At least they say so...

m.c.




From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Mon Sep 18 13:46:38 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:46:38 +0200
Subject: another BFO idea (was:RE: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.)
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028468A1@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>A talked to HAM people the other day. They spend a lot of thought
	>for their local oscillator frequency planing, because avoiding
	>locking of two neareby tuned VFOs is virtually impossible.

Now that discarding the BFO concept in frequency shifters looks more
reasonable than ever (IMO), there is another application that beckons
just for the opposite: Ordinary audio VCOs with linear thru zero
capability (LTZVCOs)

Background: There are various LTZVCO circuits published (including my
own at http://www.synthfool.com/diy/hj2vco.gif - *not* recommended for
building)
which to my knowledge all suffer from "commutating inaccuracies" when
the modulation just approaches the zero point. The direction switch might be
missed or delayed, and you get a unpleasant artefact. (It's there in my
circuit
for sure, and I remember reading similar findings about the Electronotes
LTZVCOs.)
Now, one should get rid of these problems easily with a BFO. And the locking
around 0Hz would not be a problem, because the 0Hz point would normally
not be used permanently.

In short:

FS should be able to approach 0Hz slowly / permanently
-> locking is critical -> true TZVCO better than BFO

Synth VCO will approach 0Hz dynamically
-> delays and accuracy are critical -> BFO better than TZVCO


Anybody built a BFO for use as audio range synth VCO yet ?
The critical point would be fast switching in the VCO core,
i.e. high frequency tracking I guess ...

Anybody knows if the Bode FS's BFO is accurate enough to play
tuned melodies ?

JH.




From blacet at monitor.net  Mon Sep 18 14:37:18 2000
From: blacet at monitor.net (John E Blacet)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:37:18 +0000
Subject: (possibly stupid) LFO question
References: <3.0.3.32.20000918095009.0075f8c8@popserv.ucop.edu>
Message-ID: <39C60C7F.6B5B@monitor.net>

Time for an oscilloscope....

We just got the dual trace, 20 MHz Radio Shack special for $249. It's
actually very nice! Seen them for $299 elsewhere best price.

radioshack.com 

item # 910-5356
-- 

Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Mon Sep 18 14:57:09 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:57:09 +0000
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com> <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr> <39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr>



>     Glad to hear I am not the only one who is not afraid to utter the "D"
> word. :-)
>

he he he...

OK. Here we go.

The 1st thing I'd like to say is that your digital synth project follows the
same
path as G. di Giugno's (GdG) researches at IRCAM in the mid 70's. I don't mean
t
o be cynical here, I'm just trying to put things in perspective. Furthermore,
I want to
point out that it's a pretty interesting field, as I'll try to show below.

Actually, GdG started with a single board full of TTL logic (4A) dedicated to
additive & FM
synthesis : it featured a bank 64 (or 128, don't remember) digital oscillators
(based on the
Mathews algorithm) and their enveloppes.

The interesting thing is the way the 4A evolved into the 4C (and later the 4X,
which was a
combination of various 4C boards). The idea was to replace a fixed hardware
architecture by
a programmable and more flexible one.  This was achieved by latching every
component of the
board (multiplier, adder/substractor, WT memory, etc.) in order to get a
pipe-lined structure.
Furthermore, the use of of a data memory and a micro-program memory allowed
some
programmability of the unit : recombining elementary  blocks and allowing
data-flow between
blocks through 2 general purpose buses, in order to achieve different
algorithms : oscillators
banks of course, but also digital filters, delays, reverbs, waveshapers, and
even FFTs...
Somehow the first DSP was born.
I don't have any article reference at hand, but the 4X system was described in
several CMJ
articles between 1975 & 1980. AFAIR a similar system called SYTER was
developped
rougly at the same time in the INA-GRM studios.

BTW, some figures are amazing : the 1st prototype of the 4X unit (built circa
1980) worked
at 16 MHz on 24 bits fixed words, weighted 100 Kg and featured 1700 TTL chips
!!!
And now, we can we can do the same at home on a single programmable logic
chip...
Some of you may ask "why not use a regular DSP instead"...
Well, first of all there's the pleasure of hacking (this is synth-DIY, isn't
it ?) and thus
understanding step by step the basics of DSP, and also because of the
possibility to design
your own custom DSP.

Now, here's the result of my own brainstorming on the subject. I tried to
figure out what I could
keep from GdG work on the 4X boards, how it could be squeezed into
programmable logic and,
most important, what features I could add to make this thing more "hybrid" (or
less dry-digital).
The 1st thing that came to mind was to add a few ADCs and DACs (for analog
voltage-control
and interfacing with analog synths) and MIDI i/o. A part of the WT memory
should also be
dedicated to an expo converter.
As for parameters to be VCed, of course we have freq & amp (as well as
enveloppes) for digital
oscillators, but also freq & phase & amp offset between harmonics in case of
oscillator banks for additive synthesis, as well as number of harmonics...
Various parameters (such as freq cut-off,
Q...) can be VCed in case of filters, or delays, reverbs, etc...
Micro-programs can also be selected by VC (in order to switch between filter
or reverb
algorithms for instance).
Another promising (yet more abstract) approach could be to VCed various
parameters of each
algorithms without any straight relationship with the sound itself. Of course,
the final sound will
be modified, but what I mean is to voltage-control some less straightforward
parameters (such as
temporary data in a specific algorithm, instead of fundamental freq or filter
Q). I guess it can be
called "voltage-controled hacking". This has to be tested case by case, but
I'm sure some weird
(yet interesting) results can be achieved.
And last but not least, a more ambitious path is to combine VC, digital world
and some promising
fields like alife (especially cellular automata and genetic algorithm), all in
real time, of course.
Basically the idea is to use CA or GA to shape the spectrum of a sound (with
additive synthesis
for instance), and to allow realtime modification of various parameters of the
CA or GA algo
through voltage control...

If we all know which elementary blocks are necessary for digital sound
generator / processor
(1 multipler, 1 adder/sub, 1 WT, data + adress memory, and at least 2 data bus
- which can be
pretty tricky to achieve with programmable logic), I'm still trying to figure
out which basic
blocks are necessary for CA & GA algo... And am reading about Danny Illis &
Karl Simms
work at Thinking Machines...

AFAIK, there isn't any such system on the market. But if anyone knows of
similar research
being conducted at the moment, I'd really like to get some info...

jbv





From Synthmanic at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 15:36:27 2000
From: Synthmanic at aol.com (Synthmanic at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:36:27 EDT
Subject: mini moog clone
Message-ID: <c1.7024fbe.26f7745b@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/18/00 12:01:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ka4hjh at gte.net 
writes:

> >I'd avoid using the Fairchild uA726 Temperature Controlled Differential
>  >Pair,
>  >for starters....
>  
>  No way, that's a fundamental part of the *Moog sound*, dude.

Actually, there are around 10,000 more Minis that DON'T have the uA726 than 
do have it. The sound has more to do with the discreet circuitry design that 
was a direct desendant of the modular circuits.

Dave



From boldman at interplanet.it  Mon Sep 18 15:49:55 2000
From: boldman at interplanet.it (riccardo)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:49:55 +0200
Subject: mini moog clone
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b5eb52b4e6b1@[63.28.152.222]>
References: <39C59194.7F336F9C@prodigy.net>
 <000901c0211d$ee9b57a0$0200a8c0@pc102>
 <39C59194.7F336F9C@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000918154955.01455100@pop.interplanet.it>

At 01.09 18/09/00 -0400, KA4HJH wrote:
>>I'd avoid using the Fairchild uA726 Temperature Controlled Differential
>>Pair,
>>for starters....
>
>No way, that's a fundamental part of the *Moog sound*, dude. 

The easiest way is to keep the old osc board design. IMHO the necessary
additions  are: PWM instead of fixed squares, a dedicated LFO, VCO sync,
an overall octave switch (takes all 3 VCOs up or down), four stages
envelope (ADSR),  rotary switch to address vco or noise signal to the ext
in, different resistance value for the cut off and emphasis pots for a more
linear response (not like real mins where nothing happens from 0 to 8 and
it is all between 8 and 10), and (why not?) an envelope for VCO's pitch (so
I can play Hoedown on it).
ciao
riccardo




From patchell at silcom.com  Mon Sep 18 15:57:57 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 06:57:57 -0700
Subject: Make synth building your career.
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028467A8@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <39C61F64.E361327C@silcom.com>



Haible Juergen wrote:

>         >    Interesting looking jobs.  From some of the job descriptions,
> it also
>         >sounds like you don't qualify if you have a life. :-)  If I lived a
> lot closer
>         >to Ma., it would be something I would look into for sure.
>
> Is synth building still fun when you do it full time / overtime ??
>
> JH.

    Probably not, but then again, these jobs would only make building digital
synths less fun. ;^)

I already work in the electronics industry.  As it is, it is already hard to
work all day and then go home and ask "Do I want to do even _more_ electronics
work, or would I rather do something else?"  It is a danger to have your primary
hobby and your career be the same thing.  It comes in handy as well.  It was
through my hobby I learned programming (wait a minute, maybe that wasn't such a
good thing.....).

    -Jim





From buchi at takeonetech.de  Mon Sep 18 15:59:11 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:59:11 GMT
Subject: Make synth building your career.
In-Reply-To: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028467A8@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028467A8@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <39c81e55.13891079@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

>Is synth building still fun when you do it full time / overtime ??

I wouldn?t believe so. Building synths to your own needs and tastes
is a very good and pleasing experience, but when you are forced
to make a "sellable" product you will be dictated by management
and marketing guys who tell you what THEY find cool, and you will
have to do this instead of doing what you like - this will become quickly
annoying like virtually every job. ;-)
In the beginning often it starts out as pure joy, but very soon the
reality catches you.


-Michael Buchstaller



From sdcurtin at lucent.com  Mon Sep 18 15:59:39 2000
From: sdcurtin at lucent.com (Curtin, Steven D (Steven))
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:59:39 -0400
Subject: Make synth building your career.
Message-ID: <F38185D061EBD21185F10008C7F926CE028E209E@nj7460exch007u.ho.lucent.com>

As someone who did this for ten years, I can say that it's a mixed bag.  On
the one hand yes you get to think about music software and hardware all day.
On the other hand it's usually something you didn't design, and whose basic
constraints are determined by what the marketing department thinks will sell
this week.  I've also got a lot more music done since leaving the music
industry almost four years ago, maybe because it feels less like work.  

The folks at Young Chang sounded like they were having a lot of fun when I
talked to them eight years ago, and I believe this has been Hal
Chamberlain's gig for a long time now.  I even bought a prototype K2000 from
them that we were using at Passport to test the SMDI interface to Alchemy.

Steve C

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Curtin  
Lucent Technologies Microelectronics
ph: (732)949-4404   fax: (732)949-6711
http://curtin.emf.org
sdcurtin at lucent.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------


> ----------
> From: 	Haible Juergen[SMTP:Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de]
> Sent: 	Monday, September 18, 2000 6:31 AM
> To: 	patchell
> Cc: 	synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: 	RE: Make synth building your career.
> 
> 	>    Interesting looking jobs.  From some of the job descriptions,
> it also
> 	>sounds like you don't qualify if you have a life. :-)  If I lived a
> lot closer
> 	>to Ma., it would be something I would look into for sure.
> 
> Is synth building still fun when you do it full time / overtime ??
> 
> JH.
> 
> 
> 



From patchell at silcom.com  Mon Sep 18 16:19:49 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:19:49 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com> <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr> <39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com> <39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <39C62485.85AEBE1E@silcom.com>



jbv wrote:

> >     Glad to hear I am not the only one who is not afraid to utter the "D"
> > word. :-)
> >
>
> he he he...
>
> OK. Here we go.
>
> The 1st thing I'd like to say is that your digital synth project follows the
> same
> path as G. di Giugno's (GdG) researches at IRCAM in the mid 70's. I don't mean
> t
> o be cynical here, I'm just trying to put things in perspective. Furthermore,
> I want to
> point out that it's a pretty interesting field, as I'll try to show below.
>
> Actually, GdG started with a single board full of TTL logic (4A) dedicated to
> additive & FM
> synthesis : it featured a bank 64 (or 128, don't remember) digital oscillators
> (based on the
> Mathews algorithm) and their enveloppes.
>
> The interesting thing is the way the 4A evolved into the 4C (and later the 4X,
> which was a
> combination of various 4C boards). The idea was to replace a fixed hardware
> architecture by
> a programmable and more flexible one.  This was achieved by latching every
> component of the
> board (multiplier, adder/substractor, WT memory, etc.) in order to get a
> pipe-lined structure.
> Furthermore, the use of of a data memory and a micro-program memory allowed
> some
> programmability of the unit : recombining elementary  blocks and allowing
> data-flow between
> blocks through 2 general purpose buses, in order to achieve different
> algorithms : oscillators
> banks of course, but also digital filters, delays, reverbs, waveshapers, and
> even FFTs...
> Somehow the first DSP was born.
> I don't have any article reference at hand, but the 4X system was described in
> several CMJ
> articles between 1975 & 1980. AFAIR a similar system called SYTER was
> developped
> rougly at the same time in the INA-GRM studios.
>

    I have the article on the 4C (and I think the 4B article is in the same book),
but did not know about the 4X.  I will have to see if I can get over to the local
University to see if they have that CMJ.  There was another article in the same
book (I mentioned this book in an earlier post, but dang, it must be too early in
the moringing, I can't remember the name of the book or the editors), which is a
collection of articles from the CMJ, and now I can't remember the author or name
of that article either (BRING ME MY COFFEE!), but anyway, my block diagram is just
an extension of the one in that article.

>
> BTW, some figures are amazing : the 1st prototype of the 4X unit (built circa
> 1980) worked
> at 16 MHz on 24 bits fixed words, weighted 100 Kg and featured 1700 TTL chips
> !!!
> And now, we can we can do the same at home on a single programmable logic
> chip...
> Some of you may ask "why not use a regular DSP instead"...
> Well, first of all there's the pleasure of hacking (this is synth-DIY, isn't
> it ?) and thus
> understanding step by step the basics of DSP, and also because of the
> possibility to design
> your own custom DSP.
>

    I agree.  I even considered using a DSP at one time, the Analog Devices SHARC
looked interesting, but doing the gate array trip looks like a lot more fun.

>
> Now, here's the result of my own brainstorming on the subject. I tried to
> figure out what I could
> keep from GdG work on the 4X boards, how it could be squeezed into
> programmable logic and,
> most important, what features I could add to make this thing more "hybrid" (or
> less dry-digital).
> The 1st thing that came to mind was to add a few ADCs and DACs (for analog
> voltage-control
> and interfacing with analog synths) and MIDI i/o. A part of the WT memory
> should also be
> dedicated to an expo converter.
> As for parameters to be VCed, of course we have freq & amp (as well as
> enveloppes) for digital
> oscillators, but also freq & phase & amp offset between harmonics in case of
> oscillator banks for additive synthesis, as well as number of harmonics...
> Various parameters (such as freq cut-off,
> Q...) can be VCed in case of filters, or delays, reverbs, etc...
> Micro-programs can also be selected by VC (in order to switch between filter
> or reverb
> algorithms for instance).
> Another promising (yet more abstract) approach could be to VCed various
> parameters of each
> algorithms without any straight relationship with the sound itself. Of course,
> the final sound will
> be modified, but what I mean is to voltage-control some less straightforward
> parameters (such as
> temporary data in a specific algorithm, instead of fundamental freq or filter
> Q). I guess it can be
> called "voltage-controled hacking". This has to be tested case by case, but
> I'm sure some weird
> (yet interesting) results can be achieved.
> And last but not least, a more ambitious path is to combine VC, digital world
> and some promising
> fields like alife (especially cellular automata and genetic algorithm), all in
> real time, of course.
> Basically the idea is to use CA or GA to shape the spectrum of a sound (with
> additive synthesis
> for instance), and to allow realtime modification of various parameters of the
> CA or GA algo
> through voltage control...
>

    The voltage controlled aspects sound interesting.  With Delta Sigma converters
being so cheap these days, there are a lot of posibilities there.  One of these
days I need to find out what I can do  with the A/D converters on the Nord
Modular.

>
> If we all know which elementary blocks are necessary for digital sound
> generator / processor
> (1 multipler, 1 adder/sub, 1 WT, data + adress memory, and at least 2 data bus
> - which can be
> pretty tricky to achieve with programmable logic), I'm still trying to figure
> out which basic
> blocks are necessary for CA & GA algo... And am reading about Danny Illis &
> Karl Simms
> work at Thinking Machines...
>
> AFAIK, there isn't any such system on the market. But if anyone knows of
> similar research
> being conducted at the moment, I'd really like to get some info...
>
> jbv

    Sounds like you have lots of interesting ideas.  It is hard to say in either
your case or mine, if the machines we are thinking of would ever be comercially
viable (which may explain why "there isn't any such system on the market).  Back
when the DX-7 came out several people I know got one, I myself went for the TX-816
(same thing, more of the same).  Of everybody I knew that had one, I am the only
one that still has one.  The big complaint was "It is imposible to create your own
patches!".  I tried to show a few people how to program the thing, but unless you
know what it is that FM really does, it is somewhat difficult.  But, I guess that
is another topic.

    -Jim






From Synthmanic at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 16:36:45 2000
From: Synthmanic at aol.com (Synthmanic at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:36:45 EDT
Subject: mini moog clone
Message-ID: <e2.9dd6e79.26f7827d@aol.com>


In a message dated 9/17/00 7:13:25 PM Central Daylight Time, 
efm3 at mediaone.net writes:

> If I wanted to clone the mini and I wanted to remain
>  faithful to the original but also wanted to avoid things 
>  people dislike. What would be some of the things I 
>  might want to consider?

 As long as you don't change anything from the Mixer to the VCA (this is the 
heart of the sound) it should be fine. If you can improve the original osc 
design, it would be great. Maybe use better resistors, trimmers and caps; and 
putting the tempco resistor on the expo converter instead of on the board. 
This might help. Also, don't forget the decay and glide switches that are on 
the left hand controller.

 As far as other "improvements" go, I really wouldn't go overboard on putting 
to many extras. Sync wouldn't be too much trouble to add, adjustable pulse 
and pulse width modulation would be okay. I'd lose the A-440 circuit, the 
space it uses could be better served by a small LFO. The ability to route the 
filter contour to the VCOs would be nice. A master octave switch would be 
convenient. 

Yeah, a Mini clone would be nice as long as you capture the heart and soul of 
it and that is dependent on its discrete design.

Dave




From don at till.com  Mon Sep 18 16:40:23 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: mini moog clone
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000918154955.01455100@pop.interplanet.it> (message
	from riccardo on Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:49:55 +0200)
Message-ID: <200009181440.HAA16035@shell9.ba.best.com>

   Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:49:55 +0200
   From: riccardo <boldman at interplanet.it>

   The easiest way is to keep the old osc board design. IMHO the
   necessary additions are: PWM instead of fixed squares, a dedicated
   LFO, VCO sync, an overall octave switch (takes all 3 VCOs up or
   down), four stages envelope (ADSR), rotary switch to address vco or
   noise signal to the ext in, different resistance value for the cut
   off and emphasis pots for a more linear response (not like real
   mins where nothing happens from 0 to 8 and it is all between 8 and
   10), and (why not?) an envelope for VCO's pitch (so I can play
   Hoedown on it).

That's getting pretty close to an ARP Odyssey.  :-)

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From don at till.com  Mon Sep 18 16:52:32 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:52:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Caravan sound
In-Reply-To: <39C5BB38.E88C86ED@cityweb.de> (message from Ingo Debus on Mon,
	18 Sep 2000 08:50:33 +0200)
Message-ID: <200009181452.HAA19809@shell9.ba.best.com>

   Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:50:33 +0200
   From: Ingo Debus <debus at cityweb.de>

   I shouldn't have used the term "cheesy" here. Of course a Hammond is
   *not* cheesy ;-). But since you wrote about a Lowrey organ and someone
   else wrote me that Sinclair used a Lowrey too... I never heard a
   Lowrey... how do they sound?

A Lowrey sounds like a home organ; it doesn't have anywhere near the
soul or character of a Hammond.

Mike Ratledge of Soft Machine used a Lowrey organ with a fuzz.  His
stuff is really out there; sort of the Ornette Coleman of the fuzz
organ.  

   But is this really a Hammond in the first part of the solo? (Listened
   again to it, headphones this time...) Yes, it could be a Hammond with
   strange registration. 

It sounds exactly like a Hammond to me.

   There's a "normal" sounding Hammond playing chords during the solo
   too. 

There are a lot of overdubs on that album.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From don at till.com  Mon Sep 18 17:06:54 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:06:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: another BFO idea (was:RE: Soft sync and medicine to cure it.)
In-Reply-To: 	<2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028468A1@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
	(message from Haible Juergen on Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:46:38 +0200)
Message-ID: <200009181506.IAA24512@shell9.ba.best.com>

   From: Haible Juergen <Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de>
   Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:46:38 +0200

   Now that discarding the BFO concept in frequency shifters looks
   more reasonable than ever (IMO), there is another application that
   beckons just for the opposite: Ordinary audio VCOs with linear thru
   zero capability (LTZVCOs)

   Background: There are various LTZVCO circuits published (including
   my own at http://www.synthfool.com/diy/hj2vco.gif - *not*
   recommended for building) which to my knowledge all suffer from
   "commutating inaccuracies" when the modulation just approaches the
   zero point. The direction switch might be missed or delayed, and
   you get a unpleasant artefact.

I think this is a fundamental shortcoming of a VCO whose state is
determined by a single capacitor.  A quadrature design, with two
capacitors, can enable smooth, well-behaved transitions near zero Hz.
I have a couple of napkin-scribble designs that I need to try out.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Mon Sep 18 17:26:22 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:26:22 +1000
Subject: Make synth building your career.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000918152622.009af754@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 01:59 PM 18/09/00 GMT, Michael Buchstaller wrote:
>but when you are forced
>to make a "sellable" product you will be dictated by management
>and marketing guys who tell you what THEY find cool, and you will
>have to do this instead of doing what you like - this will become quickly
>annoying like virtually every job.

This is true even when you are working for yourself!
I build analog fx boxes (Frostwave), and I know SOME people are
very keen on them (  testimonials on request ;-)  ) but when i
go to music stores & try to get them on the shelves (even on
consignment) often they say "nobody will want this stuff, it's 
too weird". Fuck me, does the world want another bloody fuzz box??

Fortunately, I'm too old & retro-skilled to get a job anywhere, so
I'll be making these "weird" boxes for some time yet.
A lot of the time it is fun, but some days I dont feel like gong to 
the office.. and it's only 15 feet from my bed!

paul perry (Frostwave) Melbourne Australia




From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Mon Sep 18 17:49:01 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:49:01 +0200
Subject: mini moog clone
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02846B95@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>At 01.09 18/09/00 -0400, KA4HJH wrote:
	>>>I'd avoid using the Fairchild uA726 Temperature Controlled
Differential
	>>>Pair,
	>>>for starters....
	>>
	>>No way, that's a fundamental part of the *Moog sound*, dude. 
	>
	>The easiest way is to keep the old osc board design. IMHO the
necessary
	>additions  are: PWM instead of fixed squares, a dedicated LFO, VCO
sync,
	>an overall octave switch (takes all 3 VCOs up or down), four stages
	>envelope (ADSR),  rotary switch to address vco or noise signal to
the ext
	>in, different resistance value for the cut off and emphasis pots
for a more
	>linear response (not like real mins where nothing happens from 0 to
8 and
	>it is all between 8 and 10), and (why not?) an envelope for VCO's
pitch (so
	>I can play Hoedown on it).
	>ciao
	>riccardo

First of all, I think the 726 argument was clearly a joke.

Second, I remember a very intelligent person making the bold statement that
the
wooden finish has to do with the minimoog sound as much as the filter or
oscillators (I'm paraphrasing). While it was never literally true, it still
makes a
lot of sense.

Now seriously, in my personal opinion, substituting a set of fixed waveforms
with 
PWM will - change the sound !
Not the sound of a certain setting or waveform of course, but in the
practical use
of the instrument. And I'm not speaking of technical differences here. Let's
asume
that the MM's original pulse waves are a full subset of the PWM circuit
you're
going to build. So where's the difference ?

The difference is that you are not likely to choose these exact pulse
waveforms 
during playing or programming. The case might be different on a synth that
can store
patches (but then again, just the procedure of storing patches will have a
similar
effect on the real time sound ...)
On a Minimoog, you will pick a combination of waveforms.
On a synth with PWM instead of the fixed pulse waves, you will choose
something
different.

It's questionable if I am really talking of "sound" here. People tend to
split an instrument's
features into categories like user interface, controllers, whatever, and the
"pure sound".
But this is misleading at best. There is nothing like "pure sound" other
than under
laboratory conditions. In real life "sound" is what comes out of the
instrument,
and this is affected by the approach the user has to take to get a certain
sound out
of it.

So much for philosophy (;->).

As a practical suggestion, keep the fixed waveforms and *add* the PWM rather
than
replacing anything.


Speaking of PWM, I recently noticed that the Yamaha CS-series synth's PWM is
quite different from other synths, and that may be part of the reason why
even the
single VCO per voice models sound so "rich". The Modulation range is
*clipped*
(as opposed to "limited") to approx. 10% and 90%. So you can overdrive the
PWM
without modulating out of range. 
The effect is that the spectrum will not be continously animated as in
normal PWM,
or momentarily disable the wave like in normal over-modulated PWM, but you
get
a periodic "part time" change of spectrum instead. Does this ring some bells
?

If ordinary PWM resembles two saw waves beating / phasing against each
other,
the CS-series PWM resembles two saw waves phasing against each other *and*
the animation of this beating being partly masked by ... *filter overdrive*
!

Do some experiments and see for yourself ...

JH.





From clark at andrews.edu  Mon Sep 18 18:02:39 2000
From: clark at andrews.edu (Tony Clark)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:02:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: asm1-VCO DRIFT!!
In-Reply-To: <20000918005852J.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1000918115558.17009A-100000@orion.cc.andrews.edu>

> > i have  implanted my own build
> > regulator i (7815/7915) and i have notice this new disturbinese in 
> > the force every pot. that has + to - 15 range
> > such as the FC (filter section) pot , or pwm pot. causes the vco to drift
> > slightly while tweaking.
> > when the turn reaches the limit suddenly a small shift in the osc, is heared.
> > i scoped it , the change is measured like 30 to 40 mv shift.
> > (checking the coarse tune middle leg)

   Welcome to the fun world of building synths!  This kind of problem I 
have found to be quite common, even with good regulated linears.  This is 
why I never run much (if anything) from the supply rails but instead build 
stable voltage references (note:  _references_ and not _regulators_) for 
which to drive pots.  It also eliminates supply line signals/noise, which 
I find to be another annoyance.
   Done properly and your synth will not drift even if the supply line 
should vary by a few _volts_!

   Good luck!

   Tony

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  The E-Music DIY Archive - http://aupe.phys.andrews.edu/diy_archive
-----------------------------------------------------------------------




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Mon Sep 18 18:31:48 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:31:48 -0700
Subject: HoeDown
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A5B@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

Please elaborate on this...see below
I assume you are talking about the ELP version of Copland's HOEDOWN,
but am trying to think of what specific part you are referring to- it has
been a
long time since I have listened to that piece.
Rory McDonald

-----Original Message-----
From: riccardo [mailto:boldman at interplanet.it]
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 6:50 AM
To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: Re: mini moog clone

... and (why not?) an envelope for VCO's pitch (so
I can play Hoedown on it).
ciao
riccardo



From Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu  Mon Sep 18 18:50:09 2000
From: Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu (Greg Montalbano)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:50:09 -0700
Subject: (possibly stupid) LFO question
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000918095009.0075f8c8@popserv.ucop.edu>

I've been trying to recommision my old modular setup, & consequently been
working with a lot of different LFO designs.  One difficulty I keep running
up against is getting a reasonably precise measurement of the  outputs of
the various LFO waveforms -- my digital multimeters are WAY too slow, and
even my old analog meter has that "averaging" feature that keeps the needle
from responding quickly enough.
So -- my (possibly stupid) question is:  am i missing some obvious method
of taking reliable voltage readings of an LFO output?

Thanks.



From improv at peak.org  Mon Sep 18 19:04:15 2000
From: improv at peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:04:15 -0700
Subject: Caravan sound
Message-ID: <v01510101b5ebfa4dc49e@[216.36.14.139]>

At 10:59 PM 9/16/00, terry michaels wrote:
>Hi Michael:
>
>It doesn't even have to be an organ.  Listen to Tony Banks of Genesis
>playing an electric piano through a fuzzbox on "The Musical Box".  That was
>a technique he used regularly during the early days of Genesis.
>
>Terry Michaels

I just did a recording last friday using a rhodes through a Z-Vex Fuzz
Factory, followed by a phaser. The Z-Vex is one of the most brutal fuzz
boxes I've ever used.

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv at peak.org
Minus Web Site: http://listen.to/minusmusic
Minus MP3's: http://www.mp3.com/-minus-
____________________________________________





From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 19:28:53 2000
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:28:53 EDT
Subject: HoeDown
Message-ID: <c6.acf8e92.26f7aad5@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/18/00 9:45:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
RMcDonald at wireone.com writes:

<< Please elaborate on this...see below
 I assume you are talking about the ELP version of Copland's HOEDOWN,
 but am trying to think of what specific part you are referring to- it has
 been a long time since I have listened to that piece. >>

He is talking about the intro to the piece, where keith plays a Moog chord 
(VCO's tuned in fifths) that starts on a midrange chord and then jumps up one 
octave.  It simulates what the second and third violins and violas do in the 
original Copland piece.  The first note is played on beat one of the bar and 
the octave jump occurs roughly on beat two of the bar.  This sound and intro 
is a good example of the grand over-the-top bombast that most of us came to 
love and expect from ELP.  (It doesn't sound nearly as bombastic when the 
part is played by violins!)

Note however, that a simple pitch-envelope modulated VCO patch will not 
really get this exact effect.  There also must be a delayed attack, so that 
the pitch glide does not start at the onset of the note, but rather about a 
beat later.  Keith probably used a trigger delay to achieve this.  Of course, 
this same effect could also be approximated by simply playing a note, then 
playing the note one octave above, and having portamento turned on.  The down 
side of doing it this way is that in this particular piece, the intro figure 
needs to be repeated over and over.  So if he had portamento turned on, the 
note would also glide back down every time he repeated the figure (low note 
to high note, low note to high note, etc.).  Emerson's sound only glides 
going up, which suggests that he used an envelope to create the octave jump.  
Also, the tming of the jump is not an exact quarter note, but a kind of loose 
quarter note, probably because it was hard to get an envelope to always be 
rhythmically precise.  (this looseness adds to the flavor, anyway)

Michael Bacich




From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 19:47:06 2000
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:47:06 EDT
Subject: Caravan sound
Message-ID: <71.6b1100f.26f7af1a@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/18/00 10:11:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, improv at peak.org 
writes:

<< I just did a recording last friday using a rhodes through a Z-Vex Fuzz
 Factory, followed by a phaser. The Z-Vex is one of the most brutal fuzz
 boxes I've ever used. >>

Hello Dave,

Thanks for the message.  Hey, do you have a Fuzz Factory?  I am curious about 
what is going on inside those boxes.  They certainly are brutal, and that's 
putting it mildly!  I cannot imagine being able to play any chords through 
that box, or using it without a noise gate.  They sound to me like they may 
have some kind of ring mod or VCO>PLL stuff in there, along with the fuzz.  
Can you get a look inside the box and let us know what IC's are being used?  
I'll bet it was fun using it with the Fender Rhodes!

Best regards,
Michael Bacich



From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 19:54:53 2000
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:54:53 EDT
Subject: (possibly stupid) LFO question
Message-ID: <ba.b068a63.26f7b0ed@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/18/00 9:48:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu writes:

<< So -- my (possibly stupid) question is:  am i missing some obvious method
 of taking reliable voltage readings of an LFO output? >>

Yes.  You need an oscilloscope!  Don't they have some at your school that you 
can use?



From RFahl at extensis.com  Mon Sep 18 20:09:45 2000
From: RFahl at extensis.com (Fahl, Romeo)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:09:45 -0700
Subject: Cheap Tempcos?
Message-ID: <5372893F7294D311B97A0090274F0F9D018D7A8F@EXTENSISNT>

Hello,

I was browsing through Web-tronics' online catalog and came across this
page:

http://www.web-tronics.com/ntcthermistors.html

I'm not sure what the 380+/- 300 means for the 1K listing... but could it be
the ppm rating?  If so, this is a cheap source!

They also have CA 3019 cans for those of you with MS50s.

Romeo



From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 20:48:41 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:48:41 GMT
Subject: HoeDown
Message-ID: <F56UuHgocnJRlB3hLVl00010ddf@hotmail.com>

I have a portamento (linear) that allows separate up and down times...
this might get the same effect, though I agree this is probably not
how it was done. But it is not difficult to make a linear portamento that 
does this...

H^)  harry


>From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com
>To: RMcDonald at wireone.com, synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: Re: HoeDown
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:28:53 EDT
>
>In a message dated 9/18/00 9:45:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>RMcDonald at wireone.com writes:
>
><< Please elaborate on this...see below
>  I assume you are talking about the ELP version of Copland's HOEDOWN,
>  but am trying to think of what specific part you are referring to- it has
>  been a long time since I have listened to that piece. >>
>
>He is talking about the intro to the piece, where keith plays a Moog chord
>(VCO's tuned in fifths) that starts on a midrange chord and then jumps up 
>one
>octave.  It simulates what the second and third violins and violas do in 
>the
>original Copland piece.  The first note is played on beat one of the bar 
>and
>the octave jump occurs roughly on beat two of the bar.  This sound and 
>intro
>is a good example of the grand over-the-top bombast that most of us came to
>love and expect from ELP.  (It doesn't sound nearly as bombastic when the
>part is played by violins!)
>
>Note however, that a simple pitch-envelope modulated VCO patch will not
>really get this exact effect.  There also must be a delayed attack, so that
>the pitch glide does not start at the onset of the note, but rather about a
>beat later.  Keith probably used a trigger delay to achieve this.  Of 
>course,
>this same effect could also be approximated by simply playing a note, then
>playing the note one octave above, and having portamento turned on.  The 
>down
>side of doing it this way is that in this particular piece, the intro 
>figure
>needs to be repeated over and over.  So if he had portamento turned on, the
>note would also glide back down every time he repeated the figure (low note
>to high note, low note to high note, etc.).  Emerson's sound only glides
>going up, which suggests that he used an envelope to create the octave 
>jump.
>Also, the tming of the jump is not an exact quarter note, but a kind of 
>loose
>quarter note, probably because it was hard to get an envelope to always be
>rhythmically precise.  (this looseness adds to the flavor, anyway)
>
>Michael Bacich
>

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From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 20:51:43 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:51:43 GMT
Subject: (possibly stupid) LFO question
Message-ID: <F285FYbNtkZfJlL5l2E00010830@hotmail.com>

If the LFO has a square wave out, you might also use a frequency
counter, in period mode. I'd prefer the scope unless you want extreme
accuracy. Even then I'd use the scope to make sure that the frequency
counter is not lying (bad trigger etc...)

H^) harry


>From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com
>To: Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu, synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: Re: (possibly stupid) LFO question
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:54:53 EDT
>
>In a message dated 9/18/00 9:48:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu writes:
>
><< So -- my (possibly stupid) question is:  am i missing some obvious 
>method
>  of taking reliable voltage readings of an LFO output? >>
>
>Yes.  You need an oscilloscope!  Don't they have some at your school that 
>you
>can use?

_________________________________________________________________________
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From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Mon Sep 18 20:54:20 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (Terry Michaels)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:54:20 -0400
Subject: HoeDown
Message-ID: <200009181454_MC2-B3CB-E597@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:WeAreAs1 at aol.com
>Note however, that a simple pitch-envelope modulated VCO patch will not 
really get this exact effect.  There also must be a delayed attack, so that

the pitch glide does not start at the onset of the note, but rather about a

beat later.  Keith probably used a trigger delay to achieve this.  Of
course, 
this same effect could also be approximated by simply playing a note, then 
playing the note one octave above, and having portamento turned on.  The
down 
side of doing it this way is that in this particular piece, the intro
figure 
needs to be repeated over and over.  So if he had portamento turned on, the

note would also glide back down every time he repeated the figure (low note

to high note, low note to high note, etc.).  Emerson's sound only glides 
going up, which suggests that he used an envelope to create the octave
jump.  
Also, the tming of the jump is not an exact quarter note, but a kind of
loose 
quarter note, probably because it was hard to get an envelope to always be 
rhythmically precise.  (this looseness adds to the flavor, anyway)

Michael Bacich<

Hi Michael:

I have exactly duplicated this effect with my modular synth, no delay
trigger is needed.  It's been awhile, but if I remember right, set up one
VCO in the usual way, mix the output with the output of a second VCO, and
then run the mix to a VCA and then out to your amp and speakers.  You run
the output of a ADSR type envelope generator into the second  VCO, the
initial attack (A) gives you the desired  pitch ramp-up time of about a
quarter note, the delay (D) is set to zero, the sustain control (S) is set
to give you the desired pitch (a fifth above the other VCO), the release
control (R) is set to zero.  The envelope generator controlling the VCA is
set to a fair amount of sustain (R set for a few seconds).   Every time you
press a key on the keyboard, you get the effect used in the intro to the
song.   If you play legato, you get the VCO's doing parallel fifths,
Emerson did that for a few measures toward the end of the song.    Keyboard
portamento is set quite short, or none at all.

Terry Michaels



From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Sep 18 21:08:41 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:08:41 +0100
Subject: mini moog clone
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02846B95@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <006c01c021a4$793f0420$b50c883e@default>

>The Modulation range is *clipped* (as opposed to "limited") to approx.
10% and 90%. So you can overdrive the PWM without modulating out of
range.

This would indeed have an effect on the PWM sound. But I have always
thought that driving the PWM with a heavily clipped triangle wave sounds
not very nice. Certainly a sine wave sounds better to my ears. But I
wonder if the clipping is actually soft enough to turn the modulating
triangle into a sine. I'm guessing here, I don't know what the CS-xx
uses as a LFO in this case. I'm going to try the clipped input and hear
what happens anyway.

I think part of the problem on some machines is that LFO depth is not
related to initial pulse width. Increasing the modulation depth should
also increase the pulse width so that the PWM causes a 'symmetrical'
phasing sound. If you modulate around an initial PW of 50% it does sound
naff. A pulse width changing from 10% to 90% does not sound so good,
since the first half sounds identical to the second half. A sort of
phasing with a rectified LFO input. IMHO richer PWM can be obtained by
modulating around 70% taking the min to 50% and max to 95%. Obviously
lower vales of modulation will lower the inital PW accordingly. If you
just have one pot to adjust PWM depth then it should automatically
adjust PW too. This can be a simple process of adding the PWM depth CV
to the PW input of the VCO.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Mon Sep 18 21:22:12 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:22:12 +0000
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com> <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr> <39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com> <39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr> <39C62485.85AEBE1E@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39C66B61.A1AAD38F@wanadoo.fr>

>
>
>     I have the article on the 4C (and I think the 4B article is in the same book),
> but did not know about the 4X.  I will have to see if I can get over to the local
> University to see if they have that CMJ.  There was another article in the same
> book (I mentioned this book in an earlier post, but dang, it must be too early in
> the moringing, I can't remember the name of the book or the editors), which is a
> collection of articles from the CMJ, and now I can't remember the author or name
> of that article either (BRING ME MY COFFEE!), but anyway, my block diagram is just
> an extension of the one in that article.

Could it be that book by Curtis Roads ?
Anyway, as soon as I have some time, I will post the rough schemo
of the internal 4C board.
As for the 4X, the 1st prototype can still be seen in Paris at Cit? de la
Musique, in the musical instruments museum... Looks actually like a
fridge or a washing machine...
I was trainee at IRCAM 20 years ago when only a couple of prototypes
were available, and I remember that there was a long waiting list of
composers eager to use them. And for each composer using the thing,
there was a team of at least 3 engineers and technicians to help for
micro-programation of patches and to prevent crashes...
The most attractive side of the 4X was the realtime features, as most
composers were tired to use MUSIC V and other software, and to have
to wait all night for the mainframe to compute their sounds...

>
>
>     I agree.  I even considered using a DSP at one time, the Analog Devices SHARC
> looked interesting, but doing the gate array trip looks like a lot more fun.

Could you tell us more about programing a gate array ? Actually, I've been
reading several data sheets, but never had the opportunity to program any
chip (mostly because I'm a Mac user, and the adequate software runs only
on Windows or Unix...)

>
>
>     Sounds like you have lots of interesting ideas.  It is hard to say in either
> your case or mine, if the machines we are thinking of would ever be comercially
> viable (which may explain why "there isn't any such system on the market).  Back
> when the DX-7 came out several people I know got one, I myself went for the TX-816
> (same thing, more of the same).  Of everybody I knew that had one, I am the only
> one that still has one.  The big complaint was "It is imposible to create your own
> patches!".  I tried to show a few people how to program the thing, but unless you
> know what it is that FM really does, it is somewhat difficult.  But, I guess that
> is another topic.
>
>

Mmmmh... not really, it's just part of the problem.I guess the "machines" I have in
mind could be described as a cross-over
between classic analog stuff, more recent items like the Nord Modular,
and the Kyma system for the "weird digital" side...

Again, I think that the best approach would be through modules : 1 module =
1 function. But the trick is to give users the most ergonomics displays &
controls to figure out what the module function really is, and to start playing
with it without having to read a 100 pages manual...
But we all know that as soon as a function becomes complex (features more
than a couple of controls for a couple of parameters), the learning curve
becomes steeper and the fun might disapear...

As for programing patches, it's getting easier these days to develop graphic
interfaces. So driving the thing from a computer screen could be an option.
For instance, for about 10 years I've been using IRCAM MAX on a NeXT
cube with an ISPW board, and it's really fun (but it requires programing
skills - or at least some "discipline" - as soon as embedded patches become
somewhat complex... But it's a same with a complex patch on an analog
synth, or even a complex spreadsheet on Excel)...

jbv





From patchell at silcom.com  Mon Sep 18 21:46:38 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:46:38 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com> <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr> <39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com> <39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr> <39C62485.85AEBE1E@silcom.com> <39C66B61.A1AAD38F@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <39C6711E.2EECF7C7@silcom.com>



jbv wrote:

> >
> >     I agree.  I even considered using a DSP at one time, the Analog Devices SHARC
> > looked interesting, but doing the gate array trip looks like a lot more fun.
>
> Could you tell us more about programing a gate array ? Actually, I've been
> reading several data sheets, but never had the opportunity to program any
> chip (mostly because I'm a Mac user, and the adequate software runs only
> on Windows or Unix...)
>
> jbv

    Designing what goes inside of the FPGA is actually not _too_ hard.  I have done
quite a few Xilinx designs and am just starting to use Altera.  In both cases the design
can be entered either as a schematic or in some sort of HDL, or both.  If you have done
logic design in the past, the FPGA will be a breeze.  Plus, the major vendor also has
some sort of logic blocks or mega functions that will allow you to plop down a 16x16
muliplier or 24 bit adder into your design which really makes things a lot easier.  In
my opinion the hardest part of doing an FPGA design is getting the data into the part
and hooking it up.  Testing can be a bit of a drag too, since there is not way to clip a
scope probe anywhere you want in the design.  Altera and Xilinx both supply a simulator
so that you can debug the design, although the altera simulator has some limitations,
but there are ways to deal with it.

    I am still working on my design.  As soon as I am ready, I will post the schematics
and HDL files (in pdf) for all to look at.

    -Jim





From Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu  Mon Sep 18 21:49:07 2000
From: Greg.Montalbano at ucop.edu (Greg Montalbano)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:49:07 -0700
Subject: (possibly stupid) LFO question
In-Reply-To: <39C60C7F.6B5B@monitor.net>
References: <3.0.3.32.20000918095009.0075f8c8@popserv.ucop.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000918124907.01b24f40@popserv.ucop.edu>

Yah, the results are in, and the 'scopes have it -- time to dump my thirty
year old Heathkit & get a REAL one.  thanks for all the responses --
sometimes I need a little goosing to get me to spend some money.

(BTW, one of the modules I'm trying to resurrect for my system is the
BLACET  PHASEFILTER -- something I always had fun with, but have never seen
mentioned on this list.  Am I the only one who enjoyed this thing?)

~G


At 12:37 PM 9/18/00 +0000, you wrote:
>Time for an oscilloscope....
>
>We just got the dual trace, 20 MHz Radio Shack special for $249. It's
>actually very nice! Seen them for $299 elsewhere best price.
>
>radioshack.com 
>
>item # 910-5356
>-- 
>
>Regards.
>-------------------------
>John Blacet
>Blacet Research Music Electronics
>http://www.blacet.com
>-------------------------
>blacet at monitor.net
>-------------------------
>Are you on our mailing list?
>http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html
>
>



From RFahl at extensis.com  Mon Sep 18 22:31:43 2000
From: RFahl at extensis.com (Fahl, Romeo)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:31:43 -0700
Subject: Cheap Tempcos?
Message-ID: <5372893F7294D311B97A0090274F0F9D018D7A90@EXTENSISNT>



Uhh... That should read 3800 +/- 300....

-----Original Message-----
From: Fahl, Romeo 
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 11:10 AM
To: 'synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl'
Subject: Cheap Tempcos?


Hello,

I was browsing through Web-tronics' online catalog and came across this
page:

http://www.web-tronics.com/ntcthermistors.html

I'm not sure what the 380+/- 300 means for the 1K listing... but could it be
the ppm rating?  If so, this is a cheap source!

They also have CA 3019 cans for those of you with MS50s.

Romeo



From jfoster at uclink.berkeley.edu  Mon Sep 18 23:02:40 2000
From: jfoster at uclink.berkeley.edu (Jeff Foster - SDA Unix)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:02:40 -0700
Subject: FS lxp-5
Message-ID: <39C682F0.E302C5F3@uclink.berkeley.edu>



LExicon LXP5 mult-fx unit. half rack, . mid 80's vintage.
works great, case rough . manuals and AC .

http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Lexicon/LXP_5-01.html


$ 175 + shipping

JF


-- 

Jeff Foster
SDA UNIX 510-642-8552
261 Evan Hall, UC Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720



From maakus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 23:30:57 2000
From: maakus at yahoo.com (Maakus)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:30:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000918213057.15482.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>

unsubscribe

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From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Tue Sep 19 00:10:43 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:10:43 +0100
Subject: mini moog clone
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4CFF@LON-MAIL07>

to reduce this to something that a musician (and not an engineer) can
digest, try putting the same rotosound strings on two different bass
guitars........
there's only one real minimoog, and that's the first one you lay your hands
on. (#2222 in my case)

d.




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From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Tue Sep 19 01:07:11 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:07:11 +0000
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com> <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr> <39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com> <39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr> <39C62485.85AEBE1E@silcom.com> <39C66B61.A1AAD38F@wanadoo.fr> <39C6711E.2EECF7C7@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39C6A01D.1EC81115@wanadoo.fr>

>
>
>     Designing what goes inside of the FPGA is actually not _too_ hard.  I have done
> quite a few Xilinx designs and am just starting to use Altera.  In both cases the design
> can be entered either as a schematic or in some sort of HDL, or both.  If you have done
> logic design in the past, the FPGA will be a breeze.  Plus, the major vendor also has
> some sort of logic blocks or mega functions that will allow you to plop down a 16x16
> muliplier or 24 bit adder into your design which really makes things a lot easier.  In
> my opinion the hardest part of doing an FPGA design is getting the data into the part
> and hooking it up.  Testing can be a bit of a drag too, since there is not way to clip a
> scope probe anywhere you want in the design.  Altera and Xilinx both supply a simulator
> so that you can debug the design, although the altera simulator has some limitations,
> but there are ways to deal with it.
>

Your remarks confirm the feeling I had after reading both Xilinx & Altera datasheets
and application notes.

I think I also remember reading somewhere that getting large internal data buses
(24 bits or more) between blocks can be a bit tricky...
And what about having large amounts of ROM & RAM in the design (I mean : not
as external chips, but inside the FPGA design) ?
And is it easy to get a pipe-line structure ? Are basic blocks latched ?

I guess another tricky step is to choose the right chip to work with, since the offer
of each company seems quite large...

And could you tell us a bit more about cost ? And what about integrating the
FPGA chip in some larger circuitry once it's programed ?

I really hope my questions aren't a drag...

Thanks in advance...

jbv






From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 19 01:14:04 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:14:04 +0200
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
In-Reply-To: <TFSMVDVG@idg.se>
References: <TFSMVDVG@idg.se>
Message-ID: <20000919011404H.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se
Subject: Re: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 8:56:22 +0200

> Hi Magnus and everybody else.

Hi J?rgen and everybody else who cares to read this...

> You really need a faster comparator than a TL082 for this to work
> satisfactorily. I used an LM318, and that was for LFO frequencies.
> For audio frequencies something even faster would be desirable. At least if
> you intend to do any further waveshaping on the output.

J?rgen is offcourse correct. My schematics is to display the general idea and
principle and does not convey all the practical details like slewrate etc.
which haunts a real design. The choice of TL082 is just as arbitrary as picking
an uA741, NE5532 or LF411. No real thougth has gone into that part of the
design.

The comparator part is really critical since it shall go basically rail-to-rail
in both directions quickly.

Cheers,
Magnus



From franko at wtvhmail.com  Tue Sep 19 01:23:53 2000
From: franko at wtvhmail.com (frank olivieri)
Date: 18 Sep 2000 23:23:53 -0000
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic...
Message-ID: <20000918232353.14414.qmail@whitfield.chek.com>

The most used combo in the 70's for what you are talking about was an organ or electric piano with a fuzz and Oberheim ring modulator with a pedal to control note 'bending'. This combo was the closest thing to a synth type sound you could get back then. Of course when using the ring mod you needed to play mono because chords sounded horrible.

Frank

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:50:42 +1000 Paul Perry <pfperry at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>At 05:38 AM 16/09/00 -0400,Glen Berry wrote:
>
>>Perhaps they used a guitorgan? Seriously, such an instrument actually
>>exists. 
>>Has anyone else seen one?
>>
>If you mean the Vox guitarogan, there is one here in Melbourne Australia
>used by a mod band (remember mods & rockers?). Vox is UK though, not USA.
>
>paul perry Melbourne Australia
>
>

Get you free email at http://www.wtvhmail.com



From franko at wtvhmail.com  Tue Sep 19 01:32:26 2000
From: franko at wtvhmail.com (frank olivieri)
Date: 18 Sep 2000 23:32:26 -0000
Subject: Caravan sound
Message-ID: <20000918233226.14535.qmail@meowmix.chek.com>

The most incredible organ distortion I have ever heard is on 'Peel the Paint' from the Gentle Giant Octopus album. Sounds almost like a mechanical scraping. Time to warm up Napster!

Frank

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:28:01 EDT WeAreAs1 at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 9/16/00 11:50:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, don at till.com 
>writes:
>
><< Chords don't work through fuzzboxes because of intermodulation.  But a
> good Canterbury keyboard player will use the "intermodulation chiffs"
> from multiple notes as an expressive tool.  Listen closely for that;
> it's pretty neat. >>
>
>Yes, it certainly is!  You can also hear a similar distorted organ solo in 
>Traffic's "Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys", from their album of the same name. 
> The organ is played by Stevie Winwood.  It's especially cool when he kind of 
>slurs his various monophonic solo notes into that intermodulated grunge, and 
>then later just starts playing full chords, just for the beautiful noise of 
>it.
>
>Oh yeah, "Ummagumma"-era Pink Floyd seemed to like that kind of organ sound 
>quite a bit, too.
>
>Don is right about the type of organ or type of fuzzbox:  It doesn't much 
>matter what types you use.  However, if you have a drawbar-type organ, it's a 
>lot of fun to change the drawbar settings while you're playing through a 
>fuzzbox.  The effect can sometimes sound kind of like a guitar breaking into 
>harmonic feedback, or even harmonic feedback breaking into a guitar...
>
>Michael Bacich
>
>

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From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 19 01:41:22 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:41:22 +0200
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
In-Reply-To: <39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr>
References: <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr>
	<39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com>
	<39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <20000919014122D.cfmd@swipnet.se>

Hi!

Now, all this talk about digital DIY-synths made me recall an old idea of
mine...

Do anyone recall these serial bitstream adders/subtractors and also multiplier
chips? There where normal TTL familly chips which could make rather long bit
lengths of multiplication and addition but where operating on shifted data.
I once dreamed up the idea of a truly patchable synth where you ran these
serial streams in the patchcord.

It would be interesting to revisit this idea just for the mental challenge.

Other than that I follow the digital DIY stuff with interest. I have allready
done some similar work in hardware (ASIC actually) so it feel kind of related.

Cheers,
Magnus




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 01:52:44 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:52:44 GMT
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.Oscillator beating!
Message-ID: <F158O6AxFWHhpGe5jSc0000e35d@hotmail.com>

Hi.

>Well, my sawtooth phase shifter is a 360 degree phase shifter, or at >least 
>very close to 360 degree... just vary the comparator voltage >over the full 
>sawtooth voltage and the comparator drops out the PWM >wave and the summing 
>network will do the rest. Maybe it is time for
>me to make a schematic of that and put up along the others?

Ahhhrg,sorry again, what i ment was that, it actually does 360 degrees, My 
design is a 0 to 5 volt cirquit,i have just been sitting to long and looking 
at the upp half of the waves on my scope, i
forgot the down phase, Forget my hassle text! What i allso ment
was the phase modulating "end result" by using frequency doubling,
the viIibBbRrRrAaAtoo effect!

>Ah, but the thing is that the whole thing is balanced!
>I get a DC error which I adjust by the resistor to negative feed. >Also, 
>this is an ugly thing since I assume the saw to go from -5 V to >+5 V as 
>well as assuming the powerlines to be at +/- 15V. That is the >ugly side of 
>it. Removing the diode so that I get a (fairly) balanced >output from the 
>comparator also removes the DC error from that signal, so then I can remove 
>the DC correction. I actually spent part >of my efforts just to ensure that 
>I still had
>DC offset at 0V!

For a single know device it should be so, but i was more reffering
to offset voltages and how close the op amp device can swing the output to 
its both rails.

The chroma uses a different aproach, they just sums up the saw
the square and the cv thuru weighted resistors (as currents tru a  4052) to 
do the phase shifts, so the second OP acts as a mixer who then passes the 
signal to a VCA.

>When J?rgen took the doubler schematic and turned it into a phase >shifter 
>based on my hints he realized this and things became even >simpler.

Actually, the whole idea with the phase shifter is that if the cv
is sweept by a LFO it simulates the beating between TWO sawtoth
oscillators.Anything from controlled slow beating into chorus/detune
sound is produced, exactly one of the nice things with the Chroma.

> > Why not using a three way switch?
>
>Uhm, I am not sure that I know how it would help... ah well..

Just to switch between uni and bi polarities, nothing else.

BJ
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From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 02:01:01 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:01:01 GMT
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Message-ID: <F25FLaqSOc7wo95EFk20001359b@hotmail.com>

Hi

>One should know that the resistors is intended to be scaled for -5V -> + 5V
>sawtooth and +/- 15V of op-amp supply voltage (and thus assumed output 
>swing).

It will do all the way down to + - 5 volt if cmos op amps
are used. It worked nice on my bread board at - +12 volt.

BJ
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From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 02:07:19 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:07:19 GMT
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Message-ID: <F2245EE45IJsMHnxtHq0000db84@hotmail.com>

Hi.

Well i tried a TL082,072 LF353 even a 5532 and
all do fine above 10khz without amplitude shift
or any serious skewing of the waveshape.

It works just fine.

BJ

>From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se
>Subject: Re: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 8:56:22 +0200
>
> > Hi Magnus and everybody else.
>
>Hi J?rgen and everybody else who cares to read this...
>
> > You really need a faster comparator than a TL082 for this to work
> > satisfactorily. I used an LM318, and that was for LFO frequencies.
> > For audio frequencies something even faster would be desirable. At least 
>if
> > you intend to do any further waveshaping on the output.
>
>J?rgen is offcourse correct. My schematics is to display the general idea 
>and
>principle and does not convey all the practical details like slewrate etc.
>which haunts a real design. The choice of TL082 is just as arbitrary as 
>picking
>an uA741, NE5532 or LF411. No real thougth has gone into that part of the
>design.
>
>The comparator part is really critical since it shall go basically 
>rail-to-rail
>in both directions quickly.
>
>Cheers,
>Magnus

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From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 19 02:35:47 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:35:47 +0200
Subject: Magnus freq doubler.Oscillator beating!
In-Reply-To: <F158O6AxFWHhpGe5jSc0000e35d@hotmail.com>
References: <F158O6AxFWHhpGe5jSc0000e35d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000919023547G.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Magnus freq doubler.Oscillator beating!
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:52:44 GMT

> Hi.

Hi there...

> >Well, my sawtooth phase shifter is a 360 degree phase shifter, or at >least 
> >very close to 360 degree... just vary the comparator voltage >over the full 
> >sawtooth voltage and the comparator drops out the PWM >wave and the summing 
> >network will do the rest. Maybe it is time for
> >me to make a schematic of that and put up along the others?
> 
> Ahhhrg,sorry again, what i ment was that, it actually does 360 degrees, My 
> design is a 0 to 5 volt cirquit,i have just been sitting to long and looking 
> at the upp half of the waves on my scope, i
> forgot the down phase, Forget my hassle text!

Bj?rn, those digital curcuits isn't good for you! ;D

> What i allso ment was the phase modulating "end result" by using frequency
> doubling, the viIibBbRrRrAaAtoo effect!

Ooohh...

> >Ah, but the thing is that the whole thing is balanced!
> >I get a DC error which I adjust by the resistor to negative feed. >Also, 
> >this is an ugly thing since I assume the saw to go from -5 V to >+5 V as 
> >well as assuming the powerlines to be at +/- 15V. That is the >ugly side of 
> >it. Removing the diode so that I get a (fairly) balanced >output from the 
> >comparator also removes the DC error from that signal, so then I can remove 
> >the DC correction. I actually spent part >of my efforts just to ensure that 
> >I still had
> >DC offset at 0V!
> 
> For a single know device it should be so, but i was more reffering
> to offset voltages and how close the op amp device can swing the output to 
> its both rails.

Yeah, offset and amplitude errors needs to be adjusted for. J?rgens design has
compensation trimmers for it.

> The chroma uses a different aproach, they just sums up the saw
> the square and the cv thuru weighted resistors (as currents tru a  4052) to 
> do the phase shifts, so the second OP acts as a mixer who then passes the 
> signal to a VCA.

In a way it is doing the same thing, the same trick... just a diffrent
representation.

> >When J?rgen took the doubler schematic and turned it into a phase >shifter 
> >based on my hints he realized this and things became even >simpler.
> 
> Actually, the whole idea with the phase shifter is that if the cv
> is sweept by a LFO it simulates the beating between TWO sawtoth
> oscillators.Anything from controlled slow beating into chorus/detune
> sound is produced, exactly one of the nice things with the Chroma.

Hmm... I haven't fooled around with a Chroma...

> > > Why not using a three way switch?
> >
> >Uhm, I am not sure that I know how it would help... ah well..
> 
> Just to switch between uni and bi polarities, nothing else.

To tired to get it right now, will ponder over it later.

Cheers,
Magnus



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 19 02:39:49 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:39:49 +0200
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
In-Reply-To: <F25FLaqSOc7wo95EFk20001359b@hotmail.com>
References: <F25FLaqSOc7wo95EFk20001359b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000919023949K.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:01:01 GMT

> Hi
> 
> >One should know that the resistors is intended to be scaled for -5V -> + 5V
> >sawtooth and +/- 15V of op-amp supply voltage (and thus assumed output 
> >swing).
> 
> It will do all the way down to + - 5 volt if cmos op amps
> are used. It worked nice on my bread board at - +12 volt.

Ah, but I refered to that the fact that for a "perfect mix" the comparators
swing should be mixed so that it has the same amplitude jump as the original
sawtooth as they come out of the output mix. The mixing I set up was based on
the +/- 15V op-amp swing and +/- 5V sawtooth swing assumptions. The ratio 3:1
should be kept for the intended operation, rescaling would be necessary
otherwise.

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 19 02:41:35 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:41:35 +0200
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
In-Reply-To: <F2245EE45IJsMHnxtHq0000db84@hotmail.com>
References: <F2245EE45IJsMHnxtHq0000db84@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000919024135D.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:07:19 GMT

> Hi.

Hi Bj?rn,

> Well i tried a TL082,072 LF353 even a 5532 and
> all do fine above 10khz without amplitude shift
> or any serious skewing of the waveshape.
> 
> It works just fine.

Ah, thanks for this report! Nice to hear that something dreamt up in theory
actually pulls it off out in the real world occasionally.

Cheers,
Magnus



From jdec at mindspring.com  Tue Sep 19 04:28:08 2000
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:28:08 -0500
Subject: *SPY* Enclosure Pictures
Message-ID: <39C6CF38.F94D16E9@mindspring.com>

Hey Gang!

Well I managed to take some pictures today of the enclosures I've been
asking about.  Here's the link to the pix:

http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure1.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure2.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure3.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure4.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure5.jpg

I think you'll agree that these would make a nice enclosure for a
custom modular synth....

Any help in determining who makes these enclosures would be great!!!!

Cheers,

Jeff R. Dec



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Sep 19 04:36:30 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:36:30 -0400
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
References: <TFSMVDVG@idg.se> <20000919011404H.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39C6D12D.A1CE5EC9@prodigy.net>

I think in real life... you do NOT want the comparator to go rail to rail
at all... you want it to slew between tightly clamped limits. If you have
less far to go, you get there much faster. The clamps can establish a reference
that is more stable than the rails anyway.  Then playing with the  resistor
values can get you back to the same spot.

These schemes all rely on PERCISE amplitudes for the sawtooth, if you
are off the mistakes will show up as fundamental bleedthrough.

It would also be possible to make a triangle wave first, then make the saw from
that... there are some very clever glitch reduction schemes (Rene Schmitz comes
to mind....).   If the amplitude of the triangle is off, it won't affect anything
as long
as there is no DC offset  (easier to guarantee I think than the amplitude...)

Then you can use an invert/non-invert switch to make the sawtooth.  The long way
around I admit but might be easier ???

H^) harry

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: jorgen.bergfors at idg.se
> Subject: Re: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 8:56:22 +0200
>
> > Hi Magnus and everybody else.
>
> Hi J?rgen and everybody else who cares to read this...
>
> > You really need a faster comparator than a TL082 for this to work
> > satisfactorily. I used an LM318, and that was for LFO frequencies.
> > For audio frequencies something even faster would be desirable. At least if
> > you intend to do any further waveshaping on the output.
>
> J?rgen is offcourse correct. My schematics is to display the general idea and
> principle and does not convey all the practical details like slewrate etc.
> which haunts a real design. The choice of TL082 is just as arbitrary as picking
> an uA741, NE5532 or LF411. No real thougth has gone into that part of the
> design.
>
> The comparator part is really critical since it shall go basically rail-to-rail
> in both directions quickly.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Sep 19 04:43:08 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:43:08 -0400
Subject: *SPY* Enclosure Pictures
References: <39C6CF38.F94D16E9@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <39C6D2BC.ACC4B9B7@prodigy.net>

HEY....  Those are pictures of the *Star Wars* missile defense system.

Where did you get them (names please....)
We have ways you know....

H^)   007

BrightBoy wrote:

> Hey Gang!
>
> Well I managed to take some pictures today of the enclosures I've been
> asking about.  Here's the link to the pix:
>
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure1.jpg
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure2.jpg
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure3.jpg
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure4.jpg
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure5.jpg
>
> I think you'll agree that these would make a nice enclosure for a
> custom modular synth....
>
> Any help in determining who makes these enclosures would be great!!!!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff R. Dec




From thescum at surfree.com  Tue Sep 19 05:00:35 2000
From: thescum at surfree.com (Byron G. Jacquot)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:00:35 -0400
Subject: Make synth building your career.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000919030035.009bedc4@smtp.surfree.com>

>Is synth building still fun when you do it full time / overtime ??

It certainly can be.  It does help to try to keep it in perspective.  I try
to think of it as something that's grown out of my DIY interests, rather
than something that's competing with them.

I have found that some of my non-technical hobbies have seen a little more
attention as well.  Lots of miles on the bicycle, and I've been hosting a
radio show, as well as trying hard to do more playing/recording of the
instruments.

As for my personal, at-home DIY efforts, there are parts of that that I
don't get much at the office.  I'm in software, so if I'm using a soldering
iron or oscilloscope, we're having some pretty serious problems.  They're
friends I see on weekends, now.  :>

All in all, I'd say it's still fun.  There are still those moments when you
cross your fingers, throw the switch, and whisper to yourself "I sure hope
this works."

Byron Jacquot




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Sep 19 05:15:46 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:15:46 -0400
Subject: *SPY* Enclosure Pictures
References: <39C6CF38.F94D16E9@mindspring.com> <39C6D2BC.ACC4B9B7@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39C6DA61.671A8F44@prodigy.net>

But seriously folks...

looks like www.amcoengineering.com they have a modular aluminum
framing system... catalog 203...

personally I still like SKB cases... then if I have to ever MOVE it....

H^) harry

Harry Bissell wrote:

> HEY....  Those are pictures of the *Star Wars* missile defense system.
>
> Where did you get them (names please....)
> We have ways you know....
>
> H^)   007
>
> BrightBoy wrote:
>
> > Hey Gang!
> >
> > Well I managed to take some pictures today of the enclosures I've been
> > asking about.  Here's the link to the pix:
> >
> > http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure1.jpg
> > http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure2.jpg
> > http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure3.jpg
> > http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure4.jpg
> > http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/enclosure5.jpg
> >
> > I think you'll agree that these would make a nice enclosure for a
> > custom modular synth....
> >
> > Any help in determining who makes these enclosures would be great!!!!
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jeff R. Dec




From mclilith at ezwv.com  Tue Sep 19 06:20:04 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:20:04 -0400
Subject: HoeDown   (asymmetrical portamento?)
In-Reply-To: <c6.acf8e92.26f7aad5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000919001554.01b35280@mail.ezwv.com>

At 01:28 PM 09/18/2000 , Michael Bacich wrote:


>needs to be repeated over and over.  So if he had portamento turned on, the 
>note would also glide back down every time he repeated the figure (low note 
>to high note, low note to high note, etc.).  Emerson's sound only glides 
>going up, which suggests that he used an envelope to create the octave jump.  

Just curious, has anyone ever made an asymmetrical portamento? One where
the "gliding up" speed could be independently adjusted from the "gliding
down" speed? (Or even turn off the effect in one direction.)

Later,
Glen



From mclilith at ezwv.com  Tue Sep 19 07:14:31 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:14:31 -0400
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
Message-ID: <4.1.20000919011404.00982680@mail.ezwv.com>

At 10:19 AM 09/18/2000 , Jim wrote:

>Back when the DX-7 came out several people I know got one, 
>I myself went for the TX-816 (same thing, more of the same).  
>Of everybody I knew that had one, I am the only one that still 
has one.  The big complaint was "It is impossible to create your 
>own patches!".  I tried to show a few people how to program 
>he thing, but unless you know what it is that FM really does, 
>t is somewhat difficult.  But, I guess that is another topic.

I'll admit that the DX-7 was harder for me to understand than the analog
synths commonly available at that same time. I once watched a training
video about programming the DX-7, and suddenly a lot of things made sense
to me. That was the only time I ever watched a training video about
programming a synth, but in the case of the DX-7, it really helped. I'm a
technician, so if I had some difficulty with the DX-7 at first, I'm not
surprised that people less technically oriented than I am, also had some
trouble.

I also want to say that I've been following your thread about a DIY digital
synth, and I find it very interesting. I hope you follow through with your
ideas, and create something really interesting. When you're finished, do
you intend to share the design with the other people on this list, and let
us build one also?

Final question: Is there such a thing as a "modular digital" synth? I'm not
referring to a virtual synth that mimics an analog modular synth. I mean to
actually have digital *hardware* that can be expanded in a modular fashion.
I think a digital synth that is also expandable and customizable through
hardware additions seems like a very interesting idea.


Later,
Glen Berry 



From adaaxs at erols.com  Tue Sep 19 07:24:31 2000
From: adaaxs at erols.com (J.G. Wong)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:24:31 -0500
Subject: Caravan sound
References: <200009161843.LAA15585@shell9.ba.best.com> <39C5BB38.E88C86ED@cityweb.de> <39C6F778.F9403E89@erols.com>
Message-ID: <39C6F883.37CDECEA@erols.com>


Actually you are referring to the Canterbury sound.  Amoung some
compared to the guitar "woman tone".
The issue of organs in Canterberry bands can get complicated.  I know
that at various times you will see: Lowreys (tonewheel type) (Soft
Machine), Baldwins, Farfisas, Gems etc...  They were never rich and
transport was always an issue.  Add to that the fact that they could
play well enough that they were not particularly hardware dependent.. 
In over 30 years I have only seen Dave Stewart use a Hammond on tour,
nearly everybody else used combo organs , usually what they could affor
, often Italian. usually with Rose Morris Duo Fuzz and a Coloursound or
Arbiter Wah Face. That sound was essential and is hard to make to this
very day  accurately over a couple of octaves. I have seen Davoli synths
stiitng on top of several types of odd Italian organs.  I am looking for
the pictures now.

Now if in the studio or opening for VDGG... they may have had a Hammond
or a tron, but live neber a B series that's for sure.

G. Wong  ( Honorary Northerner)

Ingo Debus wrote:
> 
> Don Tillman wrote:
> > That first part of the solo on "Winter Wine" is a Hammond (not
> > cheezy!), for the second part he turned on the fuzz box, and a little
> > later he hits a wah-wah pedal for a brief bit.
> 
> I shouldn't have used the term "cheesy" here. Of course a Hammond is
> *not* cheesy ;-). But since you wrote about a Lowrey organ and
someone
> else wrote me that Sinclair used a Lowrey too... I never heard a
> Lowrey... how do they sound?
> 
> But is this really a Hammond in the first part of the solo? (Listened
> again to it, headphones this time...) Yes, it could be a Hammond with
> strange registration. There's a "normal" sounding Hammond playing
chords
> during the solo too.
> 
> Time to do some experiments.
> 
> Ingo



From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Tue Sep 19 08:24:38 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:24:38 +1000
Subject: HoeDown   (asymmetrical portamento?)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000919062438.00989aa4@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 12:20 AM 19/09/00 -0400, Glen <mclilith wrote:
>
>Just curious, has anyone ever made an asymmetrical portamento? One where
>the "gliding up" speed could be independently adjusted from the "gliding
>down" speed? (Or even turn off the effect in one direction.)
>
well yes, with diodes, but the diode drops bugger it up, unless you use
a more sophisticated circuit.

paul perry Melbourne australia




From ka4hjh at gte.net  Tue Sep 19 11:03:12 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 05:03:12 -0400
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
In-Reply-To: <39C6D12D.A1CE5EC9@prodigy.net>
References: <TFSMVDVG@idg.se> <20000919011404H.cfmd@swipnet.se>
 <39C6D12D.A1CE5EC9@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <p04330101b5ecdafda4d2@[63.28.152.151]>

>I think in real life... you do NOT want the comparator to go rail to rail
>at all... you want it to slew between tightly clamped limits. If you have
>less far to go, you get there much faster. The clamps can establish 
>a reference
>that is more stable than the rails anyway.  Then playing with the  resistor
>values can get you back to the same spot.

I discovered this by accident with my light controller. I totally 
forgot about it swinging to -15V, I was thinking ground for some 
stupid reason. I also discovered that 2N2222's switch ON when you hit 
the base with -15V (avalanche?)--but not 2N3904's. Next time I'll 
clamp it with a diode the way I should have...


-- 
Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"



From tpaddock at seanet.com  Tue Sep 19 09:18:59 2000
From: tpaddock at seanet.com (tpaddock at seanet.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:18:59 US/Pacific
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <200009191619.JAA05185@dns2.seanet.com>

Just some thoughts from the unwashed and lazy.

Overall octave transpose switch. 
Also affects vcf if it's set to tracking.

A real ADSR would be cool, but not if you can't use the 
EG as a "fader". I use my mini more for a distortion & 
filter box than playing it like a keyboard. 
(Could be due to my extreme lack of keyboard talent.)
I put stuff into the ext audio in and leave the mini 
gated with a switch on a jones plug. I often control 
the vca and vcf by the EG's with the level set by SUSTAIN 
and the lag time set by DECAY. Nice slow fades 
and filter sweeps. When I try this on an odyssey, it works 
when I move SUSTAIN down, but not back up. (I'll have to 
check for sure)

Keep the loooooong EG decay times.

Keep the 440 tone if it's easy.

A on-off-mom gate switch on the front panel.

Add a positive GATE input. 

Gate and CV outputs. 

Hot vco levels so they can overdrive.

Add a separate LFO, but not if it means losing 
the vcf control by vco3.

It's not keeping with the original, but how about 
"detune" indicators? Maybe an led driven from an 
and gate looking at vco1 and vco2. It would flash 
depending on how they were detuned. Same for vco1 
and vco3. Could a vco drive a few milliamps directly 
if you connected an led & resistor between vco outputs? 

Ext CV input gets added to the midi CV. So you can 
transpose on the fly from another keyboard. Like when 
running a mini from a sequencer and playing the 
keyboard at the same time.

CV inputs for pitch and modulation wheels. Maybe like 
an odyssey, where you can use resistance or voltage.

Wood strips like a Buick Roadmaster. (Sorry, attempted humor)

Some of these are kind of getting away from the 
original idea, but they are just thoughts.

 - -- -  Toby Paddock






From goku at nni.com  Tue Sep 19 11:40:34 2000
From: goku at nni.com (T.J.)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 05:40:34 -0400
Subject: HoeDown   (asymmetrical portamento?)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000919062438.00989aa4@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <39C73492.FF431057@nni.com>

Try the MOTM page. They have a new module
MOTM-820 VC lag processor, does it all.
http://www.synthtech.com/news/index.html
Terry

Paul Perry wrote:

> At 12:20 AM 19/09/00 -0400, Glen <mclilith wrote:
> >
> >Just curious, has anyone ever made an asymmetrical portamento? One where
> >the "gliding up" speed could be independently adjusted from the "gliding
> >down" speed? (Or even turn off the effect in one direction.)
> >
> well yes, with diodes, but the diode drops bugger it up, unless you use
> a more sophisticated circuit.
>
> paul perry Melbourne australia






From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Tue Sep 19 12:26:37 2000
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Schmitz)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:26:37 +0200
Subject: another BFO idea (was:RE: Soft sync and medicine to cure
  it.)
In-Reply-To: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028468A1@nbgm339a.nbgm.sie
 mens.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000919122637.00a12dd0@mailin.uni-bonn.de>

Hi Juergen, Martin and List!

I've toyed with two (albeit ordinary) vcos beating in the audio range,
before I built my base-band tzvco. 
(2 VCOs into RM -> LPF, plus another modulation VCO) 
The problem was drift and tracking. Re-hearing the recording I made back
then my impression is that it sounds somewhat better than the "base-band"
LTZVCOs, but I think that is due to the heavy filtering that was necessary
to remove the upper sideband. 

I suspect that with a BFO you trade one problem for another. Namely the
base-band circuits discontinuities due to offsets versus another
discontinuity, near the point where the two VCOs of the BFO lock into each
other. (They would have a dead-zone of a few Hz when they lock. That is
equivalent to a crossover distortion for the modulation signal.) The
question is only which of the two is less annoying.

Bye,
 Ren?

At 13:46 18.09.00 +0200, Haible Juergen wrote:
>	>A talked to HAM people the other day. They spend a lot of thought
>	>for their local oscillator frequency planing, because avoiding
>	>locking of two neareby tuned VFOs is virtually impossible.
>
>Now that discarding the BFO concept in frequency shifters looks more
>reasonable than ever (IMO), there is another application that beckons
>just for the opposite: Ordinary audio VCOs with linear thru zero
>capability (LTZVCOs)
>
>Background: There are various LTZVCO circuits published (including my
>own at http://www.synthfool.com/diy/hj2vco.gif - *not* recommended for
>building)
>which to my knowledge all suffer from "commutating inaccuracies" when
>the modulation just approaches the zero point. The direction switch might be
>missed or delayed, and you get a unpleasant artefact. (It's there in my
>circuit
>for sure, and I remember reading similar findings about the Electronotes
>LTZVCOs.)
>Now, one should get rid of these problems easily with a BFO. And the locking
>around 0Hz would not be a problem, because the 0Hz point would normally
>not be used permanently.
>
>In short:
>
>FS should be able to approach 0Hz slowly / permanently
>-> locking is critical -> true TZVCO better than BFO
>
>Synth VCO will approach 0Hz dynamically
>-> delays and accuracy are critical -> BFO better than TZVCO
>
>
>Anybody built a BFO for use as audio range synth VCO yet ?
>The critical point would be fast switching in the VCO core,
>i.e. high frequency tracking I guess ...
>
>Anybody knows if the Bode FS's BFO is accurate enough to play
>tuned melodies ?
>
>JH.
>
>
-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159

 




From dafc at sinectis.com.ar  Tue Sep 19 14:28:20 2000
From: dafc at sinectis.com.ar (David Castillo)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:28:20 -0300
Subject: RV: Oberheim Ob-8
Message-ID: <004501c02235$3b1951a0$7fc8f4d8@gtx>

 I have bought an Oberheim Ob-8 for a quite good price.
 It has 2 main problems:

 a) The keys are dirty, so many of them doesn't sound at the first touch.
I'm
 new on repairing keys, so I don't know how to detach them from the unit and
 how to fix the problem.

I think I could manage to do a) (Thank you Tony Clark), but I want to know
more about b).

 b) I press the auto-tune button and it seems that the #1 voice can not be
 calibrated, so following the user's manual instructions thar voice is
 shutted off (and I have only a 7 keys poliphony). If that happens, how can
I
 begin to try to solve this?

 I have both, the users manual and the repair manual.

 The software revision is C-6, can you tell me something of this. I would
 appreciate any data you can give me.





 Thank you!!!





From sbernardi at home.net  Tue Sep 19 14:28:36 2000
From: sbernardi at home.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 05:28:36 -0700
Subject: HoeDown (asymmetrical portamento?)
Message-ID: <39C75BF3.D3B28286@home.net>

As Doc Brown would say, "Please excuse the crudity of this model...."
What you want to do is create a parallel network of two separarate pots
in series with diodes facing the opposite direction. Put it inside the
feedback loop of an opamp, which will compensate for the diode drops.




               +=============================+

|                                                                  |
                |
+====+
                |            |   \
|          |
               +=====+ --  \          +===|<+===/\/\/\/\===+
                             |         \
|                                   |
                             |
>---+                                  +======+====O
   O==========+  +     /       |
|               |
                             |       /
+===+>|===/\/\/\/\===+               |
                                /
|           |           ----+----

+==== +          ----+----

|

|

----+----

-----

--



--
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at home.net





From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Tue Sep 19 14:29:47 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:29:47 +0200
Subject: HoeDown   (asymmetrical portamento?)
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02847187@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	> Just curious, has anyone ever made an asymmetrical portamento? One
where
	> the "gliding up" speed could be independently adjusted from the
"gliding
	> down" speed? (Or even turn off the effect in one direction.)

Emu built the "classic" one, with indepenent up and down times.
Today I (shamelessly) recommend the MOTM VCLAG. 

I think Roland had a kind of one-direction-only portamento on the SH-7
(switchable to up/down/both)
Serge has a slope generator with separate time constants for up and down.
(But I have never tested it, so I don't know if it's offset free for tuned
keyboard portamento)
*Some* VCADSRs might be usable as well (Keyboard CV goes into 
Sustain CV, and Attack / Release times control the up / down slope.
Offset Voltage is an issue here, and you want an ADSR that reacts to
Sustain CV changes in both directions (It's intentionally blocked in
some ADSR designs.)

Additional note: Various portamento types have different kind of symmetry
or unsymmetry by design. Linear glide on V/Hz CV is not the same as
expo glide on V/Oct CV for instance. (I've once built a log converter,
glide circuit, and expo converter to just get this effect on V/Oct.)

If you want full control over shapes and symmetry, it's useful to have
both, individual access to rise and fall times, and a 3rd knob for changing
the overall time (while preserving shape and unsymmetry). That's
what led to the MOTM VCLAG design.

JH.





From rja at euronet.nl  Tue Sep 19 16:11:38 2000
From: rja at euronet.nl (Rick Jansen)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:11:38 +0200
Subject: Admin message: unsubscribed users
Message-ID: <39C7741A.CBDB3D64@euronet.nl>

The following users have been unsubscribed due to mail problems
at their end: 

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
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<brett_d_daniels at yahoo.com>:
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Rick Jansen
-- 
Web: http://www.euronet.nl/~rja/
email: rja at euronet.nl



From patchell at silcom.com  Tue Sep 19 16:25:58 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:25:58 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C5009E.1F261764@silcom.com> <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr> <39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com> <39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr> <39C62485.85AEBE1E@silcom.com> <39C66B61.A1AAD38F@wanadoo.fr> <39C6711E.2EECF7C7@silcom.com> <39C6A01D.1EC81115@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <39C77776.D9394E19@silcom.com>



jbv wrote:

> Your remarks confirm the feeling I had after reading both Xilinx & Altera datasheets
> and application notes.
>
> I think I also remember reading somewhere that getting large internal data buses
> (24 bits or more) between blocks can be a bit tricky...
> And what about having large amounts of ROM & RAM in the design (I mean : not
> as external chips, but inside the FPGA design) ?

    Large blocks of ROM/RAM are more of a problem in the Xilinx Parts (although I am not too
sure about their Virtex Parts) than altera.  Although, we need to define what Large is.  In
Xilinx parts (40xxE and Spartan), the basic ram block is 32x1 or 16x2.  But, you can make any
CLB (that is what they call their basic logic block for those unfamiliar) into a ram.  In
altera, the basic ram block size (for ACEX parts) is 2048x2/1048x4/512x8/256x16.  But, there
are fewer of them.  The smallest device only has three of these blocks, the largest 12.  The
logic cells in the Altera parts cannot be used for RAM/ROM.  So, if your memory requirements
are modest, say less that 30K bits, an FPGA will handle this.  This is the reason why the
Waveform Look Up Table will be external, because there is just no hope of putting it inside a
reasonable priced part.  Also, the size of the internal memories that I am using fit much
better into the Altera part than the Xilinx.

>
> And is it easy to get a pipe-line structure ? Are basic blocks latched ?

    Pipelining is very easy with either family.  In the Altera library, you can even select
how much pipelining you want.  The 16x16 multiplier can be 0 (no pipelining),1,.2 or 3 levels,
so that you can trade off pipeline delays with speed.  Many of the other functions have
pipeline options as well (including the dual port memories).

>
>
> I guess another tricky step is to choose the right chip to work with, since the offer
> of each company seems quite large...

    It is really more a choice of how many pins you want.  For Altera, the ACEX family is the
low cost one.  Right now they seem to offer only 30K, 50K and 100K parts.  The machine I have
block diagrammed on the web uses about 80% of the 30K part, although, it is always better to
go one bigger.  For Xilinx, the Spartan series is the low cost solution.  If I remember
correctly, the sizes availiable for that one are 5K, 10K, 20K and 40K.

>
>
> And could you tell us a bit more about cost ? And what about integrating the
> FPGA chip in some larger circuitry once it's programed ?
>

    Cost is not really all that bad.  Although, I can't remember exactly how much the Spartan
chips cost, $25->$30 seems to be the figure I remember for the Xilinx Spartan XCS40 (40K
part).  The Altera ACEX family is supposed to directly compete with the spartan chips, so I
would imangine their price range is about the same.

    How I have programmed the parts in the past is to load code right from the microprocessor
that goes along with the FPGA.  In the product I am working on right now, a pair of Xilinx
4010E's are loaded from a 68000.  I made a special 22v10 part that provides the interface
between the 68K and the FPGA's programming interface (these FPGA's are volatile, so you have
to program them every time you power up).  Other options include using the serial rom chips
that both Altera and Xilinx supply if you are either going stand alone, or the microcontroller
does not have the capacity to store the FPGA code.

>
> I really hope my questions aren't a drag...

    Not at all, this kind of stuff is fun.

>
> Thanks in advance...
>
> jbv

    -Jim





From patchell at silcom.com  Tue Sep 19 16:32:31 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:32:31 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C55B65.DB5D0BF5@wanadoo.fr>
		<39C543D5.A61B7E1E@silcom.com>
		<39C61124.6C01999F@wanadoo.fr> <20000919014122D.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39C778FF.EC7817F2@silcom.com>

    Sure do, I still have some of them.  (Recally rusty old memories) I do believe
the serial adder/subtractor is the 74LS385 and the serial multiplier is the
74LS384, and I also used a shift register with sign extend, which I think is the
74LS322.

    I was working recently on a design that was going to go into a xilinx FPGA
where I was going to implement these functions.  Didn't need the speed of a
parrallel multiplier, and there wasn't enough space anyway.  But, that project got
scraped :-(  Didn't quite get past the point where I was debugging the multiplier.

    I was at one time also contemplating using the above parts for some sort of
synth project also, never got around to it, and then the parts (adder and
multiplier) became difficult to find.

    -Jim


Magnus Danielson wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Now, all this talk about digital DIY-synths made me recall an old idea of
> mine...
>
> Do anyone recall these serial bitstream adders/subtractors and also multiplier
> chips? There where normal TTL familly chips which could make rather long bit
> lengths of multiplication and addition but where operating on shifted data.
> I once dreamed up the idea of a truly patchable synth where you ran these
> serial streams in the patchcord.
>
> It would be interesting to revisit this idea just for the mental challenge.
>
> Other than that I follow the digital DIY stuff with interest. I have allready
> done some similar work in hardware (ASIC actually) so it feel kind of related.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus




From patchell at silcom.com  Tue Sep 19 16:39:43 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:39:43 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
Message-ID: <39C77AAF.98B992A4@silcom.com>

Glen wrote:

>
> I also want to say that I've been following your thread about a DIY
digital
> synth, and I find it very interesting. I hope you follow through with
your
> ideas, and create something really interesting. When you're finished,
do
> you intend to share the design with the other people on this list, and
let
> us build one also?
>

    Share?  Yes.  Although, I am not sure how to do that.  If I do
follow
through, this is going to involve at least 4 layer PC boards with
surface mount
components.  Not exactly DIY freindly.

>
> Final question: Is there such a thing as a "modular digital" synth?
I'm not
> referring to a virtual synth that mimics an analog modular synth. I
mean to
> actually have digital *hardware* that can be expanded in a modular
fashion.
> I think a digital synth that is also expandable and customizable
through
> hardware additions seems like a very interesting idea.
>

    Anything is posible.  Actually the best modular digital I know of is
the
Nord Modular.  Although, it is only modular because of "software".  A
digital
"hardware" synth would be much more of a challenge.  Patch cords would
be a
bitch :^)

>
> Later,
> Glen Berry

    -Jim






From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 16:50:59 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:50:59 GMT
Subject: HoeDown (asymmetrical portamento?)
Message-ID: <F28ZI06wfpElnPUbRwa00004126@hotmail.com>

Yes I have.
Who wants to see ???

H^) harry


>From: Glen <mclilith at ezwv.com>
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: Re: HoeDown   (asymmetrical portamento?)
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:20:04 -0400
>
>At 01:28 PM 09/18/2000 , Michael Bacich wrote:
>
>
> >needs to be repeated over and over.  So if he had portamento turned on, 
>the
> >note would also glide back down every time he repeated the figure (low 
>note
> >to high note, low note to high note, etc.).  Emerson's sound only glides
> >going up, which suggests that he used an envelope to create the octave 
>jump.
>
>Just curious, has anyone ever made an asymmetrical portamento? One where
>the "gliding up" speed could be independently adjusted from the "gliding
>down" speed? (Or even turn off the effect in one direction.)
>
>Later,
>Glen

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.




From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Tue Sep 19 16:55:18 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:55:18 +0000
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
Message-ID: <39C77E51.54CB200E@wanadoo.fr>

Hey boys & girls, here's more food for the brain !

Here is a block diagram of the digital synth I mentioned
in my previous post :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jbv.silences/DIY/Architecture.jpg

As explained before, it is heavily inspired from the 4C
by Di Giugno. This configuration was called 4U
(actually an extension of the 4C) and the 4X featured
8 similar boards for a total of 1700 TTL chips...
As you can see, it's pretty similar to a DSP...


First, the main blocks :

ALU : a regular adder / substracter.
Eventually, it can also perform boolean functions.

MUL : a rugular 16 x 16 -> 32 bits multiplier

WT : a ROM containing waveforms. A part of that
ROM is dedicated to an expo converter.

RAM : a large RAM space to store incoming audio
samples (possibly in stereo) for designing large reverbs
& delays. (a question regarding the ROM and RAM is
whether they can be squeezed inside the FGPA chip,
or if external ROM & RAM chips can be used...)

DM (data memory) : a small RAM space (8 K max)
used as temporary storage registers to store computation results .


Second, the 2 main buses and registers :

C bus & M bus : the whole thing is organized around t
hese 2 main buses used for data flow between basic blocks.

MA, MB, MX, MY... : input & output latches / buffers for
the basic blocks. The combination of these registers and the
2 main buses leads to a pipe-line architecture (for instance,
data can be loaded from M Bus into the input registers of
MUL while MUL is still performing the previous multiplication,
and while the result of an anterior multiplication is transfered from
MUL output register via the C Bus).


Third, adress and microprogram memories :

Adress memory adresses the cells of DATA memory
where temporary results must be read / written

Microprogram memory (the core of the system, the place
where the current running algorithm is actually stored)
controls all registers and main blocks :

- loads data from / to each main bus into / from input
& output registers

- selects which function to use in the main blocks
(in ALU for instance, it selects add or sub or boolean)

And last, clock & counter :

The clock that runs the whole system is a multiple of the
required sampling frequency. The algo is actually a main
loop. For instance, at 96 MHz and for a sampling frequency
of 48 KHz, 2000 micro-cycles (or microinstructions are available).
Of course, different algorithms can be stored in a larger adress
& uP memory space. Algos will be selected through the MSBs.


---------------------------

Here is an algorithm example : a digital oscillator with linear
interpolation (it uses 2's complement arithmetic). The pipe-line
structure is obvious here.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jbv.silences/DIY/Osc.jpg


---------------------------

As for Cellular Automata (mentioned in one of my previous posts),
here's an example of what can be done.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jbv.silences/DIY/CA.jpg

Let's say we have a one-dimension CA with 32 cells. By choosing
the adequate initial configuration and the adequate evolution rules,
successive steps of the system evolution can be calculated at a certain
rate (step 1, 2, 3, etc... in the schemo).
The transition of each cell from one step to the next ( 0 -> 1 or 1 ->
0)
can be interpolated, and the resulting slopes (in red on the schemo) can

be used to control various parameters in the digital synth : for
instance
the amplitude of each osc in a bank for additive synthesis, or the phase

offset of each osc. One should get rich cycling evolutions of the sound
spectrum.
Of course, 2 different CA settings can run at the same time, the 1st one

driving osc amps, and the 2nd one the phase offsets. The evolution rate
of each CA can be fixed, or driven by an external VC-LFO for instance...

Other similar applications could be a bank of tap-delays tuned in a
certain
way (as subharmonics, or according to a specific harmonic
progression...),
and the interpolated slopes from the CA could be used to drive the amp
of
each delay (or the feed-back ratio of each delay into the input signal).

I feel that interesting results can be achieved with a perc loop for
instance.
Another idea : the tap-delays could be replaced by a bank of
pitch-shifters
tuned in a certain way...


So far, I don't know if the CA machinery can be included in the FPGA
chip,
or if an external uC should be used, with the slopes sent as input data
to the
digital synth kernel...

jbv





From chris at scp.de  Tue Sep 19 17:36:08 2000
From: chris at scp.de (Christian Hofmann)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:36:08 +0200
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
In-Reply-To: <39C77AAF.98B992A4@silcom.com>
References: <39C77AAF.98B992A4@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <200009191536.RAA20590@dilbert.scp.de>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:39:43 -0700
Jim Patchell <patchell at silcom.com> wrote:

>     Anything is posible.  Actually the best modular digital I know of is
> the
> Nord Modular.  Although, it is only modular because of "software".  A
> digital
> "hardware" synth would be much more of a challenge.  Patch cords would
> be a
> bitch :^)

Um, I don't think so. On a digital synth you wouldn't have to use
something like SPDIF or even multipin connectors for patch cords. You
could virtualize the patching by using a scanning scheme like the one for
panel buttons and keyboards.
Unbless you want to be able to patch in analog signals, that is... :-)

regards
Christian



From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Tue Sep 19 18:14:40 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:14:40 -0700
Subject: *SPY* Enclosure Pictures
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A76@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

Those are really nice.  I dont know you makes them, but I have a couple of
similiar bourns dual concentric pots like on the front of those enclosures.
I was thinking of using them on TomG's VCO boards as coarse/fine tune pots.
Rory McDonald



From JohnS at molectron.com  Tue Sep 19 19:06:03 2000
From: JohnS at molectron.com (John Speth)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:06:03 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
Message-ID: <C33ED99B3B3FD111A8D20000F8D82AA25D4116@MDI_MAIL>

Great idea!  So to clarify, are you saying... 

Put the modules on a common bus but just use the patch cords to notify the
system of intermodule connections?  

I like this.  You get the gratification of handling patch cords with the
accuracy of a digital system.  (Let's not get into to obvious downside of
"accuracy" though!)

John Speth
Molectron Detector, Inc.
http://www.molectron.com
mailto:johns at molectron.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Hofmann [mailto:chris at scp.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 8:36 AM
> To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: Re: DIY Digital Synth
> 
> 
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:39:43 -0700
> Jim Patchell <patchell at silcom.com> wrote:
> 
> >     Anything is posible.  Actually the best modular digital 
> I know of is
> > the
> > Nord Modular.  Although, it is only modular because of 
> "software".  A
> > digital
> > "hardware" synth would be much more of a challenge.  Patch 
> cords would
> > be a
> > bitch :^)
> 
> Um, I don't think so. On a digital synth you wouldn't have to use
> something like SPDIF or even multipin connectors for patch cords. You
> could virtualize the patching by using a scanning scheme like 
> the one for
> panel buttons and keyboards.
> Unbless you want to be able to patch in analog signals, that is... :-)
> 
> regards
> Christian
> 
-------------- next part --------------
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From macdonald at evenfall.com  Tue Sep 19 19:46:11 2000
From: macdonald at evenfall.com (Chris MacDonald)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:46:11 -0700
Subject: Quadrature VCO
References: <200009181506.IAA24512@shell9.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <39C7A663.1462E27C@evenfall.com>

Is it possible to build a QVCO around a single LM13700?  I have tried to
make one by starting with a 2nd order state variable filter but was
unable to achieve strong, stable oscillation without clipping on at
least one of the waveforms.  Did I miss something here?  Is there an
otherwise "standard" or "classic" circuit for a QVCO?  I don't need
through-zero or anything, just nice sine waves up to 25kHz or so.

Thanks,

Chris MacDonald



From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Tue Sep 19 19:51:20 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:51:20 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A76@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

I also have concidered a digital synth-on-a-chip a la DSP. It is feasable to a
point. There are limitations such as having limited processor cycles per sample,
having to handle patching, and of course EVERYTHING will sound DIGITAL.

I've come up with solutions to some of these. CSound has certainly shown how to
handle control vs signal. These days DSPs are really fast AND bussable for
parallel processing. 

For those who have a ADSP-2181 EZ-Kit Lite, these folks have done some
interesting work:

http://www.gweep.net/~shifty/ezkit/

I plan on adding this to my project list; it is project #3287765/9-P   :0)


Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com



-----Original Message-----
From: jbv [mailto:jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 12:12 PM
To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: Re: DIY Digital Synth


>
>
>     Anything is posible.  Actually the best modular digital I know of is
> the
> Nord Modular.  Although, it is only modular because of "software".  A
> digital
> "hardware" synth would be much more of a challenge.  Patch cords would
> be a
> bitch :^)



What about fiber optic patch cords ?    ;-)

More seriously, I've been wondering a couple of times if a modular
"hardware" digital synth would be feasable... A modular in which
every module would be built around a DSP, or a uC of some kind...

And it appears that the main problem would be sampling frequency :
let's say everything's running at 48 KHz; should every module have
its own clock, with i/o signals fed through ADCs & DACs to make
connections between modules analog (for possible connection with
a "real" analog modular), or should the whole system be driven by
a single clock (and in that case, how should the clock signal be
distributed among modules) ?
Furthermore, I'm afraid that sampling frequency would introduce
audible delays in the signal in case of complex patches in which
a large number of modules are involved...

Last but not least, I tried to figure out what kind of modules would
benefit of being 100% digital... Apart from DVCO (currently
discussed), there's of course various forms of reverbs, delays,
waveshapers & pitch-shifters...
But I was also thinking of some typical & unique type of module
that could not be done the analog way, and I was thinking of
some statistical distribution generators (sorry, can't find any
better description), stuff that would output, when triggered,
clouds of events (ADSR, frequencies, MIDI notes, whatever)
following certain probabilistic / mathematic rules that the user
could modify / program either by tweaking pots on the front panel
or by voltage control... IRCAM MAX and PatchWork software
feature such fonctions; the idea is just to reshape them as
hardware modules...

And there's also that Cellular Automata & Genetic Algorithm
stuff I mentioned in previous posts, but I must confess that
my brainstorming on those topics didn't go very far...

jbv




From chris at scp.de  Tue Sep 19 19:55:29 2000
From: chris at scp.de (Christian Hofmann)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:55:29 +0200
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
In-Reply-To: <C33ED99B3B3FD111A8D20000F8D82AA25D4116@MDI_MAIL>
References: <C33ED99B3B3FD111A8D20000F8D82AA25D4116@MDI_MAIL>
Message-ID: <200009191755.TAA28440@dilbert.scp.de>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:06:03 -0700
John Speth <JohnS at molectron.com> wrote:

> Great idea!  So to clarify, are you saying... 
> 
> Put the modules on a common bus but just use the patch cords to notify the
> system of intermodule connections?  

Yep. Just like the modulation matrix on some synths, but with a very
convenient way of programming it...
However, this probably wouldn't be that well feasible with a hardware
based truly "modul"ar approach, but more with a DSP/software system. 
In the software case more or less everything (audio signals, and
modulation, er, voltages) is just data in memory, and it's quite easy to
route anything to anywhere.

Christian


> I like this.  You get the gratification of handling patch cords with the
> accuracy of a digital system.  (Let's not get into to obvious downside of
> "accuracy" though!)
> 
> John Speth
> Molectron Detector, Inc.
> http://www.molectron.com
> mailto:johns at molectron.com 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christian Hofmann [mailto:chris at scp.de]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 8:36 AM
> > To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> > Subject: Re: DIY Digital Synth
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:39:43 -0700
> > Jim Patchell <patchell at silcom.com> wrote:
> > 
> > >     Anything is posible.  Actually the best modular digital 
> > I know of is
> > > the
> > > Nord Modular.  Although, it is only modular because of 
> > "software".  A
> > > digital
> > > "hardware" synth would be much more of a challenge.  Patch 
> > cords would
> > > be a
> > > bitch :^)
> > 
> > Um, I don't think so. On a digital synth you wouldn't have to use
> > something like SPDIF or even multipin connectors for patch cords. You
> > could virtualize the patching by using a scanning scheme like 
> > the one for
> > panel buttons and keyboards.
> > Unbless you want to be able to patch in analog signals, that is... :-)
> > 
> > regards
> > Christian




From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Sep 19 20:29:43 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:29:43 +0100
Subject: HoeDown   (asymmetrical portamento?)
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02847187@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <011d01c0226b$c21d0260$d83d883e@default>

> Just curious, has anyone ever made an asymmetrical portamento? One
where
> the "gliding up" speed could be independently adjusted from the
"gliding
> down" speed? (Or even turn off the effect in one direction.)

The TB303 has a switchable glide circuit. Depending what note you
programmed after it, you could glide up or down. Some midi-CV convertors
offer glide when you play legato, so you could easily control glide on
or off. Can't change the timings though.

Didn't the Mini have a push switch for glide on or off?

And talking of glide; my 'new' SH-2000 has a linear VCO with glide. I
still can't get used to it. I have had years with V/oct and it sounds
very different. Maybe it will grow on me.

You could always use the pitch bend wheel/lever too. I prefer the centre
sprung Roland lever to glide anyway... but thats just me.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 20:35:33 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:35:33 GMT
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <F13sNQptgFrYILoygXL00011768@hotmail.com>

Comments inline:


>From: tpaddock at seanet.com
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: RE: minimoog clone
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:18:59 US/Pacific
>
>Just some thoughts from the unwashed and lazy.
>
>Overall octave transpose switch.
>Also affects vcf if it's set to tracking.

Nice...
>
>A real ADSR would be cool, but not if you can't use the
>EG as a "fader". I use my mini more for a distortion &
>filter box than playing it like a keyboard.
>(Could be due to my extreme lack of keyboard talent.)
>I put stuff into the ext audio in and leave the mini
>gated with a switch on a jones plug. I often control
>the vca and vcf by the EG's with the level set by SUSTAIN
>and the lag time set by DECAY. Nice slow fades
>and filter sweeps. When I try this on an odyssey, it works
>when I move SUSTAIN down, but not back up. (I'll have to
>check for sure)

nice also...
>
>Keep the loooooong EG decay times.

Oh YES !!!
>
>Keep the 440 tone if it's easy.

Waste of panel space IMHO...
>
>A on-off-mom gate switch on the front panel.

Very nice!
>
>Add a positive GATE input.

Why do S-trig anyway. All we do is convert to positive trigger, and
its easier to go from positive to S-trig anyway !
>
>Gate and CV outputs.

I'd like a whole patch panel. Maybe as an accessory that fits a 1U
rack below the main panel...
>
>Hot vco levels so they can overdrive.

OK if you like... I'll turn mine down.
>
>Add a separate LFO, but not if it means losing
>the vcf control by vco3.

Yeah but where do you fit the extra knobs ???
>
>It's not keeping with the original, but how about
>"detune" indicators? Maybe an led driven from an
>and gate looking at vco1 and vco2. It would flash
>depending on how they were detuned. Same for vco1
>and vco3. Could a vco drive a few milliamps directly
>if you connected an led & resistor between vco outputs?

Actually an exclusive-or gate is what you want here, driven
from square waves...
>
>Ext CV input gets added to the midi CV. So you can
>transpose on the fly from another keyboard. Like when
>running a mini from a sequencer and playing the
>keyboard at the same time.

If MY synths don't do this trick when I get them, they get modified until 
they do !!!
>
>CV inputs for pitch and modulation wheels. Maybe like
>an odyssey, where you can use resistance or voltage.
>
>Wood strips like a Buick Roadmaster. (Sorry, attempted humor)

Not Funny !  I was thinking the same thing. A thin walnut veneer strip
in the rack rail area, with holes to clear the mounting screws. Mini's would 
not be the same without that "woody" sound.

Soon this will be a iiiC....
>
>Some of these are kind of getting away from the
>original idea, but they are just thoughts.
>
>  - -- -  Toby Paddock
>
>
>

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From jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr  Tue Sep 19 21:11:59 2000
From: jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr (jbv)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:11:59 +0000
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C77AAF.98B992A4@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39C7BA7C.6C2DF919@wanadoo.fr>

>
>
>     Anything is posible.  Actually the best modular digital I know of is
> the
> Nord Modular.  Although, it is only modular because of "software".  A
> digital
> "hardware" synth would be much more of a challenge.  Patch cords would
> be a
> bitch :^)



What about fiber optic patch cords ?    ;-)

More seriously, I've been wondering a couple of times if a modular
"hardware" digital synth would be feasable... A modular in which
every module would be built around a DSP, or a uC of some kind...

And it appears that the main problem would be sampling frequency :
let's say everything's running at 48 KHz; should every module have
its own clock, with i/o signals fed through ADCs & DACs to make
connections between modules analog (for possible connection with
a "real" analog modular), or should the whole system be driven by
a single clock (and in that case, how should the clock signal be
distributed among modules) ?
Furthermore, I'm afraid that sampling frequency would introduce
audible delays in the signal in case of complex patches in which
a large number of modules are involved...

Last but not least, I tried to figure out what kind of modules would
benefit of being 100% digital... Apart from DVCO (currently
discussed), there's of course various forms of reverbs, delays,
waveshapers & pitch-shifters...
But I was also thinking of some typical & unique type of module
that could not be done the analog way, and I was thinking of
some statistical distribution generators (sorry, can't find any
better description), stuff that would output, when triggered,
clouds of events (ADSR, frequencies, MIDI notes, whatever)
following certain probabilistic / mathematic rules that the user
could modify / program either by tweaking pots on the front panel
or by voltage control... IRCAM MAX and PatchWork software
feature such fonctions; the idea is just to reshape them as
hardware modules...

And there's also that Cellular Automata & Genetic Algorithm
stuff I mentioned in previous posts, but I must confess that
my brainstorming on those topics didn't go very far...

jbv





From patchell at silcom.com  Tue Sep 19 21:38:15 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:38:15 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
References: <39C77E51.54CB200E@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <39C7C0A7.C89EAE8E@silcom.com>



jbv wrote:

> Hey boys & girls, here's more food for the brain !
>
> Here is a block diagram of the digital synth I mentioned
> in my previous post :
> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jbv.silences/DIY/Architecture.jpg
>
> As explained before, it is heavily inspired from the 4C
> by Di Giugno. This configuration was called 4U
> (actually an extension of the 4C) and the 4X featured
> 8 similar boards for a total of 1700 TTL chips...
> As you can see, it's pretty similar to a DSP...
>

    A lot more general purpose that what I had in mind.  It also could make
a nice machine, I would imagine for doing a virtual analog......hmmm there
is another thought.

    Except for the big block of RAM and the Wave Table, I think everything
thing you have there would fit real nice into an FPGA, in fact, you might be
able get two in a single FPGA.

    By the way, and it could be my connection (we seem to be having a bit of
trouble today), I was only able to get about 1/2 of the above jpg.  I got
the jist I think.  I will try again latter tonight.

>
> jbv

    -Jim





From sdcurtin at lucent.com  Tue Sep 19 22:22:57 2000
From: sdcurtin at lucent.com (Curtin, Steven D (Steven))
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:22:57 -0400
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
Message-ID: <F38185D061EBD21185F10008C7F926CE028E20A7@nj7460exch007u.ho.lucent.com>

Add a DRAM controller, then you could just use the cheap DRAM they use for
PCs for your wavetable storage.  That's what they do for commercial digital
samplers.  You would have to time-slice memory accesses, but the decrease in
FPGA cost and VHDL compile time might be worth it.

Steve C

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Curtin  
Lucent Technologies Microelectronics
ph: (732)949-4404   fax: (732)949-6711
http://curtin.emf.org
sdcurtin at lucent.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------


> ----------
> From: 	Jim Patchell[SMTP:patchell at silcom.com]
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 19, 2000 3:38 PM
> To: 	jbv
> Cc: 	synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: 	Re: Re : DIY Digital Synth
> 
> 
> 
> jbv wrote:
> 
> > Hey boys & girls, here's more food for the brain !
> >
> > Here is a block diagram of the digital synth I mentioned
> > in my previous post :
> > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jbv.silences/DIY/Architecture.jpg
> >
> > As explained before, it is heavily inspired from the 4C
> > by Di Giugno. This configuration was called 4U
> > (actually an extension of the 4C) and the 4X featured
> > 8 similar boards for a total of 1700 TTL chips...
> > As you can see, it's pretty similar to a DSP...
> >
> 
>     A lot more general purpose that what I had in mind.  It also could
> make
> a nice machine, I would imagine for doing a virtual analog......hmmm there
> is another thought.
> 
>     Except for the big block of RAM and the Wave Table, I think everything
> thing you have there would fit real nice into an FPGA, in fact, you might
> be
> able get two in a single FPGA.
> 
>     By the way, and it could be my connection (we seem to be having a bit
> of
> trouble today), I was only able to get about 1/2 of the above jpg.  I got
> the jist I think.  I will try again latter tonight.
> 
> >
> > jbv
> 
>     -Jim
> 
> 



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 19 22:23:00 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:23:00 +0200
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
In-Reply-To: <39C6D12D.A1CE5EC9@prodigy.net>
References: <TFSMVDVG@idg.se>
	<20000919011404H.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39C6D12D.A1CE5EC9@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20000919222300Q.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:36:30 -0400

> I think in real life... you do NOT want the comparator to go rail to rail
> at all... you want it to slew between tightly clamped limits. If you have
> less far to go, you get there much faster. The clamps can establish a reference
> that is more stable than the rails anyway.  Then playing with the  resistor
> values can get you back to the same spot.
> 
> These schemes all rely on PERCISE amplitudes for the sawtooth, if you
> are off the mistakes will show up as fundamental bleedthrough.
> 
> It would also be possible to make a triangle wave first, then make the saw from
> that... there are some very clever glitch reduction schemes (Rene Schmitz comes
> to mind....).   If the amplitude of the triangle is off, it won't affect anything
> as long
> as there is no DC offset  (easier to guarantee I think than the amplitude...)
> 
> Then you can use an invert/non-invert switch to make the sawtooth.  The long way
> around I admit but might be easier ???

Well, my curcuit does in it current embodiment do depend on the rail-to-rail
assumption, but the idea works equally well if it goes 0.3 V below the upper
rail and 0.4 V above the lower rail since you can make rescaling and offset
adjustments fairly easy. I don't think you can attack the core idea that easy,
but there are some practical details to be concerned with, yes.

Also, when I was talking to J?rgen earlier this evening as we where getting
home from a synth-beer event I think we agreed that while using slow op-amps
for comparators maybe was not giving the best waveform on the scope, but may
very well be usefull for music never the less (hmm... maybe I am extrapolating
from our discussion, but we where getting there).

I think we must recall what the goal of the exercise is...

Last thing I saw from Bj?rn he seemed fairly satisfied with the result after
doing practical exercises. I think this is really where a curcuit in the end is
tested, in the process of making a product and how that product is being
apprechiated by some user.

My curcuits are quick and dirties, but may be usefull never the less. They are
simple enougth to be well understood even if some cleverness is behind the
scaling. I think there is a virtue in a minimalistic design too, you need both
that and more elaborate and precise designs.

Cheers,
Magnus



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Tue Sep 19 23:06:58 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:06:58 +0100
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D1F@LON-MAIL07>

>>>>>>Keep the 440 tone if it's easy.
>>Waste of panel space IMHO...

agreed, tho' it seemed like a nice touch at the time; in practice, one
always has to tune everything up to some awkward bugger like a guitarist
with several guitars in different tunings.... or a 'tron. in our case, it's
usually the samplers that dictate the (live, anyway) "master" tuning, while
the moogs will sing along quite happily for hours at whatever pitch you tell
'em to.

>>>>>>A on-off-mom gate switch on the front panel.
>>Very nice!

bit of card under the key usually does the trick. more often missed out on
mono's is being able to repeatedly trigger using either the lfo or a
dedicated clock. I adopted the former for the prodigals and the latter for
the rogues and the pro-1, with a nice dual-concentric pot for the extra
clock-rate on the sci, and a pair of led's.
the rogue has this clock that can go from a pulse every 20 seconds to about
20Hz, while the original lfo has a x10 range switch so it goes up into audio
territory. modulating the filter with the "emphasis" right up produces a
sort of woodblock noise. the trigger can be left routed or applied
momentarily.

> >>>>>>Add a positive GATE input.
>>Why do S-trig anyway. All we do is convert to positive trigger, and
>>its easier to go from positive to S-trig anyway !

I can see the appeal of using a closure rather than a voltage for triggering
*within* the synth, but it sucks for interfacing, if only because no-one
else really adopted it. they're both there inside the moog anyway.

> >>>>>>Gate and CV outputs.
>>I'd like a whole patch panel. Maybe as an accessory that fits a 1U
>>rack below the main panel...

or adopt the rogue solution- stereo jack sockets.

>>>>>>Hot vco levels so they can overdrive.
>>OK if you like... I'll turn mine down.

I thought the mini did this already..... the rogue does.

>>>>>>Add a separate LFO, but not if it means losing
> >>>>>>the vcf control by vco3.
> 
vclfo maybe? but definitely a separate entity. the yamaha cs30 (and probably
other cs's) has envelope control routed to the vclfo, and some weird
retriggering or syncing from the eg's too. or maybe I did that to it....

>>Yeah but where do you fit the extra knobs ???

well, since this is quite a radical redesign already, why not make room for
four oscillators in the osc section instead of three?

>>>>>Ext CV input gets added to the midi CV. So you can
> >>>>>transpose on the fly from another keyboard. 
>>If MY synths don't do this trick when I get them, they get modified until 
>>they do !!!

again, I thought the mini was like this already. the prodigal is, and on my
rogue, it's selectable. after a little while, the synth "forgets" which key
you pressed and needs reminding to stay in tune, unless the aforementioned
bit of card is in place. but I mean transposition (which isn't real
transposition anyway) from it's own keyboard while external cv runs things.

so, if you're going to redesign the thing quite drastically, maybe there'd
be room for a wee tiny pin-patch, say 8x8. this would allow, in the minimum
of panel space, lots of weird patching between the various "modules" of the
mini-clone.... you could add inverters to the eg's and have them appear as
cv sources on the pin-patch along with keyvolts, the lfo, the pitchwheel,
one or two of the main oscillators..... ok, maybe 10x10....

would you get a cabinet maker to copy the original box? and then base a new
front panel on the original too?
are the knobs and switch-tops still available?

duncan.



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From trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Sep 19 23:25:01 2000
From: trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk (Trevor Page)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:25:01 +0100
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
Message-ID: <000f01c02280$1350e200$188c883e@trevspc>

Hi list,

A friend of mine (in Australia) has asked me if I can get hold of an
oscillator section for a Juno 106, as (apparently) they are very
expensive+few remain over there. I may seem dumb here but I know absolutely
nothing about the Juno 106 so I am assuming that what he's after is maybe an
IC, or complete PCB or module. I think they are DCO's, right? Is there a
hard to source dedicated IC for this?
Anyone have such a thing available, or let us know where to source one?
Sorry I am rather sketchy on the details, again this is all I know from my
friend's email.

According to an FAQ I just found on the net, the DCO's are formed round
three wave generator chips (MC5534A).

Can anyone help us out over this one?

Trev





=========

Trevor Page BEng (Hons)




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 19 23:31:58 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:31:58 +0200
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
In-Reply-To: <39C77776.D9394E19@silcom.com>
References: <39C6711E.2EECF7C7@silcom.com>
	<39C6A01D.1EC81115@wanadoo.fr>
	<39C77776.D9394E19@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000919233158P.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Jim Patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: Re: DIY Digital Synth
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:25:58 -0700

> 
> 
> jbv wrote:
> 
> > Your remarks confirm the feeling I had after reading both Xilinx & Altera datasheets
> > and application notes.
> >
> > I think I also remember reading somewhere that getting large internal data buses
> > (24 bits or more) between blocks can be a bit tricky...
> > And what about having large amounts of ROM & RAM in the design (I mean : not
> > as external chips, but inside the FPGA design) ?
> 
>     Large blocks of ROM/RAM are more of a problem in the Xilinx Parts (although I am not too
> sure about their Virtex Parts) than altera.

The Xilinx Virtex add dedicated RAM blocks and the followups to the Virtex
contains even more RAM blocks (on popular demand, from my firm among others).
The 4000 series (and its MANY versions) uses the LUTs as 16x1 bit memorycells
(which is really what they are anyway). In Virtex you may still do this, but
the additional dedicated RAM blocks is really good to have. Add external DRAM
for long samples/delay buffers and you have the basis for a seriously cool
DIY digital synth.

Half the troubles with FPGA is figuring out how to best make use of their
capabilities. For instance, you have alot of logic power at hand at the input
of any flip-flop, so it may not be wise to reuse an adder among diffrent
registers. One has to experiment and see how much space diffrent solutions take
and figure out alternative ways of solving things. This is in a way similar in
trying to dump of a few lines of mnemonics in some assembler hack in order to
have it take on less memory footprint.

> >
> > And is it easy to get a pipe-line structure ? Are basic blocks latched ?
> 
>     Pipelining is very easy with either family.  In the Altera library, you can even select
> how much pipelining you want.  The 16x16 multiplier can be 0 (no pipelining),1,.2 or 3 levels,
> so that you can trade off pipeline delays with speed.  Many of the other functions have
> pipeline options as well (including the dual port memories).

Each of the Xilinx CLB has a programable logic block at the input, using two
LUT (Look Up Tables) of 16x1 or 4-input-to-1-output, then some fixed logic with
some programability and then two flip-flops. So, pipelining comes virtually for
free since the flip-flops is just sitting there and doing nothing unless you
ask them to join the timing dance...

> >
> >
> > I guess another tricky step is to choose the right chip to work with, since the offer
> > of each company seems quite large...
> 
>     It is really more a choice of how many pins you want.  For Altera, the ACEX family is the
> low cost one.  Right now they seem to offer only 30K, 50K and 100K parts.  The machine I have
> block diagrammed on the web uses about 80% of the 30K part, although, it is always better to
> go one bigger.  For Xilinx, the Spartan series is the low cost solution.  If I remember
> correctly, the sizes availiable for that one are 5K, 10K, 20K and 40K.

Actually, I'd say that you must start with the size, if you expect the size of
a project to be at say 40k gates, you should have a margin so you use an FPGA
of at least 50k to 60k. Spare logic power translates into extra routing freedom
and this can allow you to get better timing predictions. Also, you can trade
speed with area, so by taking more area you can live with less speed most of
the times.

When you have settled for a size which is of interest, you can start to worry
about pin-count, logic levels etc.

One of the things that does annoy me is that you can't get hold of a good
synthesis, placement, route and bit generation packet which is suitable on a
private persons normal budget constraints. I'd love to use FPGAs at home for
many things, but the software budget problem is one thing, then they don't run
on a friendly operating system either... <sigh>

Cheers,
Magnus





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep 20 00:13:10 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:13:10 +0200
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
In-Reply-To: <000f01c02280$1350e200$188c883e@trevspc>
References: <000f01c02280$1350e200$188c883e@trevspc>
Message-ID: <20000920001310U.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Trevor Page" <trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:25:01 +0100

> Hi list,

Hi Trevor,

> A friend of mine (in Australia) has asked me if I can get hold of an
> oscillator section for a Juno 106, as (apparently) they are very
> expensive+few remain over there. I may seem dumb here but I know absolutely
> nothing about the Juno 106 so I am assuming that what he's after is maybe an
> IC, or complete PCB or module. I think they are DCO's, right? Is there a
> hard to source dedicated IC for this?
> Anyone have such a thing available, or let us know where to source one?
> Sorry I am rather sketchy on the details, again this is all I know from my
> friend's email.
> 
> According to an FAQ I just found on the net, the DCO's are formed round
> three wave generator chips (MC5534A).

I'm not sure that it helps, but:

MC5534A, isn't that just Motorola's (now ON-Semiconductors) labeling of our
beloved NE5534A?

BTW, the 5534 is a dual op-amp...

Check out Philips:
http://216.35.77.145/pip/XNE5534CU

> Can anyone help us out over this one?

Cheers,
Magnus




From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 00:28:16 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:28:16 GMT
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <F238BDUsJb7DpKGqJYF00005b32@hotmail.com>

TomG is the one who kicked this out into the ether...

Looks like a 3U rack mount panel design. I'd like something
similar to the Chris MacDonald "MiniModular" with a metal
case on the back... but open frame is OK.  I'm NOT looking
forward to soldering a million point to point connections...

OTOH Its much easier to modify if you don't need special
components. And the PCB design is easier too...

(Chris must have torn out half his hair...)

Since you mentioned the ProOne... that is an instrument that truly
deserves a clone. I've always thought a lot of the MiniMoog vibe was that it 
was a BEAUTIFUL looking machine, if outperformed by just about
all others. I'd go for an Odyessy myself, and I'd take the ProOne over
both! But the ProOne suffers from "too cheap" construction. The slide
switches suck, the pots are not much better, and the octave switches
(clever electrical design) have truly shitty feel. But the modulation
section will whup at ss on a Mini or Odyessy.

I like the "card" trick.  I really liked seeing Pink Floyd in concert... 
Rich Wright had a roll of masking tape next to the keyboard, and he taped 
doun the keys, then faded in with the
footpedal (this in "echoes"...)

Re: the switch tops... doesn't anyone like mini-toggles? I hate
slide switches!

H^)  harry


>From: "Goddard, Duncan" <goddard.duncan at mtvne.com>
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: RE: minimoog clone
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:06:58 +0100
>
> >>>>>>Keep the 440 tone if it's easy.
> >>Waste of panel space IMHO...
>
>agreed, tho' it seemed like a nice touch at the time; in practice, one
>always has to tune everything up to some awkward bugger like a guitarist
>with several guitars in different tunings.... or a 'tron. in our case, it's
>usually the samplers that dictate the (live, anyway) "master" tuning, while
>the moogs will sing along quite happily for hours at whatever pitch you 
>tell
>'em to.
>
> >>>>>>A on-off-mom gate switch on the front panel.
> >>Very nice!
>
>bit of card under the key usually does the trick. more often missed out on
>mono's is being able to repeatedly trigger using either the lfo or a
>dedicated clock. I adopted the former for the prodigals and the latter for
>the rogues and the pro-1, with a nice dual-concentric pot for the extra
>clock-rate on the sci, and a pair of led's.
>the rogue has this clock that can go from a pulse every 20 seconds to about
>20Hz, while the original lfo has a x10 range switch so it goes up into 
>audio
>territory. modulating the filter with the "emphasis" right up produces a
>sort of woodblock noise. the trigger can be left routed or applied
>momentarily.
>
> > >>>>>>Add a positive GATE input.
> >>Why do S-trig anyway. All we do is convert to positive trigger, and
> >>its easier to go from positive to S-trig anyway !
>
>I can see the appeal of using a closure rather than a voltage for 
>triggering
>*within* the synth, but it sucks for interfacing, if only because no-one
>else really adopted it. they're both there inside the moog anyway.
>
> > >>>>>>Gate and CV outputs.
> >>I'd like a whole patch panel. Maybe as an accessory that fits a 1U
> >>rack below the main panel...
>
>or adopt the rogue solution- stereo jack sockets.
>
> >>>>>>Hot vco levels so they can overdrive.
> >>OK if you like... I'll turn mine down.
>
>I thought the mini did this already..... the rogue does.
>
> >>>>>>Add a separate LFO, but not if it means losing
> > >>>>>>the vcf control by vco3.
> >
>vclfo maybe? but definitely a separate entity. the yamaha cs30 (and 
>probably
>other cs's) has envelope control routed to the vclfo, and some weird
>retriggering or syncing from the eg's too. or maybe I did that to it....
>
> >>Yeah but where do you fit the extra knobs ???
>
>well, since this is quite a radical redesign already, why not make room for
>four oscillators in the osc section instead of three?
>
> >>>>>Ext CV input gets added to the midi CV. So you can
> > >>>>>transpose on the fly from another keyboard.
> >>If MY synths don't do this trick when I get them, they get modified 
>until
> >>they do !!!
>
>again, I thought the mini was like this already. the prodigal is, and on my
>rogue, it's selectable. after a little while, the synth "forgets" which key
>you pressed and needs reminding to stay in tune, unless the aforementioned
>bit of card is in place. but I mean transposition (which isn't real
>transposition anyway) from it's own keyboard while external cv runs things.
>
>so, if you're going to redesign the thing quite drastically, maybe there'd
>be room for a wee tiny pin-patch, say 8x8. this would allow, in the minimum
>of panel space, lots of weird patching between the various "modules" of the
>mini-clone.... you could add inverters to the eg's and have them appear as
>cv sources on the pin-patch along with keyvolts, the lfo, the pitchwheel,
>one or two of the main oscillators..... ok, maybe 10x10....
>
>would you get a cabinet maker to copy the original box? and then base a new
>front panel on the original too?
>are the knobs and switch-tops still available?
>
>duncan.
>
>
>
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>
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From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Wed Sep 20 01:07:27 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:07:27 -0700
Subject: DIY Digital Synth
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A7C@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

I was looking at the Chebychev(?) lookup table thingies in the Chamberlin book.
It seemed to me one could make a kickin distortion box using this method. I'm
envisioning a delta-sigma AD/DA pair with a FPGA in the middle. There would be a
EPROM for the lookup tables also connected to the FPGA. Then a simple switch
selects which lookup table is being used. 

Gosh darn I wish I had more time to play!!!!

Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com




From pwd at redhotant.com  Wed Sep 20 01:16:32 2000
From: pwd at redhotant.com (paul darlow)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:16:32 +0100
Subject: Oberheim 1148A
Message-ID: <39C7F3D0.780543A2@redhotant.com>

Hi all
        I have in my possession a Oberheim 1148A circuit bored which I
think is a mixer from a 4 voice it has no sockets and all the molex
connectors have been removed dose anyone have a wiring doc for this or
know where i can get one as I would like to get it up and runningin my
modular

thanks paul




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep 20 01:33:11 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:33:11 -0700
Subject: Quadrature VCO
References: <200009181506.IAA24512@shell9.ba.best.com> <39C7A663.1462E27C@evenfall.com>
Message-ID: <39C7F7B7.C06A7381@silcom.com>

    Yes it is.  In the Nov/.Dec 1980 issue of Polyphony there is a circuit
that uses a single CA3280, but an LM13700 could be used instead.  Another
reference, if you don't have that one is page 80 in the Analog Devices
Non-linear circuits handbook (which is where the first circuit I mentioned
was derived).  If you don't have either, I can xerox off a copy and send
them to you.

Chris MacDonald wrote:

> Is it possible to build a QVCO around a single LM13700?  I have tried to
> make one by starting with a 2nd order state variable filter but was
> unable to achieve strong, stable oscillation without clipping on at
> least one of the waveforms.  Did I miss something here?  Is there an
> otherwise "standard" or "classic" circuit for a QVCO?  I don't need
> through-zero or anything, just nice sine waves up to 25kHz or so.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris MacDonald

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From thescum at surfree.com  Wed Sep 20 02:49:34 2000
From: thescum at surfree.com (Byron G. Jacquot)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:49:34 -0400
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000920004934.009b361c@smtp.surfree.com>

>> According to an FAQ I just found on the net, the DCO's are formed round
>> three wave generator chips (MC5534A).

>I'm not sure that it helps, but:
>
>MC5534A, isn't that just Motorola's (now ON-Semiconductors) labeling of our
>beloved NE5534A?
>
>BTW, the 5534 is a dual op-amp...

I just peeked at the schematics.  The connections to the Mc5534A in the Juno
looks kind of similar to those on a Curtis chip...timing and CV inputs, some
capicitors for timing, digital signals for waveform selection, and wave &
sub octave outputs.

All in a 16 pin (? maybe more/less) SIP package, and marked as custom in the
parts list.

It doesn't appear to be our ol' opamp buddy.

I think they're available form Roland.

Byron Jacquoyt




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 03:22:33 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:22:33 GMT
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Message-ID: <F310rM3TbhyF2fPmsSV0000f973@hotmail.com>

Hi.

> > It will do all the way down to + - 5 volt if cmos op amps
> > are used. It worked nice on my bread board at - +12 volt.
>
>Ah, but I refered to that the fact that for a "perfect mix" the comparators 
> >swing should be mixed so that it has the same amplitude jump as the 
>original >sawtooth as they come out of the output mix. The mixing I set up 
>was based on >the +/- 15V op-amp swing and +/- 5V sawtooth swing 
>assumptions. The ratio 3:1 >should be kept for the intended operation, 
>rescaling would be necessary >otherwise.

Yes i know, all i was saying was that it works nice
all the way down to +-5 volt "including" rescaling
of the resistors.The message was that a Cmos often swings
wey close to the rails so for 0 to+5 volt or +-5 volt designs
bipolar has its limits if one want perfect +-5 volt wave shapes.

BJ
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From tpaddock at seanet.com  Wed Sep 20 05:03:12 2000
From: tpaddock at seanet.com (Toby Paddock)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:03:12 -0700
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <01C02275.005EBA60@dialup-209.245.163.161.Seattle1.Level3.net>

(T) Toby original post
(H) Harry comments
(t)  Toby re-comments

(T) Keep the 440 tone if it's easy.
(H) Waste of panel space IMHO...
(t)  OK

(T) Add a positive GATE input.
(H) Why do S-trig anyway. All we do is convert to positive trigger, 
(H) and its easier to go from positive to S-trig anyway !
(t) OK for me.

(T) Gate and CV outputs.
(H) I'd like a whole patch panel. Maybe as an accessory that 
(H) fits a 1U rack below the main panel...
(t) Yes! An optional patch panel. If you want a basic "mini by midi", 
(t) then no patch panel. It would be nice if the circuit board was set 
(t) up to be "option friendly".

(T) Add a separate LFO, but not if it means losing
(T) the vcf control by vco3.
(H) Yeah but where do you fit the extra knobs ???
(t) Mmmmm... don't know.

(T) It's not keeping with the original, but how about
(T) "detune" indicators? Maybe an led driven from an
(T) and gate looking at vco1 and vco2. It would flash
(T) depending on how they were detuned. Same for vco1
(T) and vco3. Could a vco drive a few milliamps directly
(T) if you connected an led & resistor between vco outputs?
(H) Actually an exclusive-or gate is what you want here, 
(H) driven from square waves...
(t) An and gate would be on only when they are in phase. 
(t) That would work, wouldn't it? 
(t) Oh, I see, ignore my "led between vco's" idea.

(T) Wood strips like a Buick Roadmaster. (Sorry, attempted humor)
(H) Not Funny !  I was thinking the same thing. A thin walnut veneer 
(H) strip in the rack rail area, with holes to clear the mounting screws. 
(H) Mini's would not be the same without that "woody" sound.
(t) Hmmmm... SIDES! I was thinking top and bottom. 
(t) It would be cool on the sides. Maybe some nice molding.

(H) Soon this will be a iiiC....
(t) Yeah, it was "minimoog", not "ultraminimoog", wasn't it?
(t) But still, that optional patch panel...






From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Wed Sep 20 06:10:27 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:10:27 +0100
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D23@LON-MAIL07>

>>>think they're available form Roland.

they were two years ago when I fixed that coked up 106 I wrote about a few
days ago. I very much doubt whether the whole pcb is still available though
but.

d.


***************************************************************************
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From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Wed Sep 20 06:21:12 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:21:12 +0100
Subject: pro-1 (was minimoog clone)
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D24@LON-MAIL07>

(I just looked at that header and thought to myself "no it wasn't, it had
it's own personality")

>>>Since you mentioned the ProOne... that is an instrument that truly
> deserves a clone. I've always thought a lot of the MiniMoog vibe was that
> it 
> was a BEAUTIFUL looking machine, if outperformed by just about
> all others. I'd go for an Odyessy myself, and I'd take the ProOne over
> both! But the ProOne suffers from "too cheap" construction. The slide
> switches suck, the pots are not much better, and the octave switches
> (clever electrical design) have truly shitty feel. But the modulation
> section will whup at ss on a Mini or Odyessy.<<<
> 
have to agree- the sci pro-1 was sort of supposed to be a mono p5 but, it
would appear, the company were in such dire straits even then that they were
forced to skimp on the hardware. I'd like to give mine a facelift and fit a
new keyboard without those shitty j-wires, and some half-decent switchgear
in the mod section. however, I've always liked the octave switches because
they do weird things when jammed half way..... there's a couple of other
things I'd change too- keyboard follow for the eg's maybe (like the cheetah
ms6, which I'm constantly telling people is really six pro-1's in a box,
crying out for a decent editor/interface).
I remembered another mod I did- the "freq" controls on a stock one go up
about an octave I think; on mine, they go up about an octave and a third. I
can't remember why, but this is very useful.......


>>>I like the "card" trick.  I really liked seeing Pink Floyd in concert... 
> Rich Wright had a roll of masking tape next to the keyboard, and he taped 
> doun the keys, then faded in with the
> footpedal (this in "echoes"...)<<<
> 
I have a vhs tape of bruford's short-lived solo project from 1978; dave
stewart (not the bearded one) held down several keys on his hammond with
fishing weights. he wins the prize.
nick mason's daughter works here, drives a fiat sports car with number plate
P1NKF.

d.


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From tswetonic at real.com  Wed Sep 20 06:55:50 2000
From: tswetonic at real.com (Tim Swetonic)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:55:50 -0700
Subject: Hi from a newbie
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000919215343.009a3c80@mail.real.com>

Hi, I just joined this list. I love analog synths, and I'm interested in 
learning how to build one. I don't have any electronics knowledge (yep, 
really a newbie!). I've checked out the MOTM kits, and the FatMan from 
paia. Can anyone suggest some projects to start out with that aren't *too* 
intense? Is the FatMan doable for a newbie? Or should I try something much 
smaller?

Thanks,

Tim



From macdonald at evenfall.com  Wed Sep 20 07:13:07 2000
From: macdonald at evenfall.com (Chris MacDonald)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:13:07 -0700
Subject: Quadrature VCO
References: <200009181506.IAA24512@shell9.ba.best.com> <39C7A663.1462E27C@evenfall.com> <39C7F7B7.C06A7381@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39C84763.3C45064D@evenfall.com>

Thanks Jim!  I will see if I can find those sources.  The book sounds
especially interesting.  I think PAIA has reprints of Polyphony issues
as well.

-Chris M.

patchell wrote:
> 
>     Yes it is.  In the Nov/.Dec 1980 issue of Polyphony there is a circuit
> that uses a single CA3280, but an LM13700 could be used instead.  Another
> reference, if you don't have that one is page 80 in the Analog Devices
> Non-linear circuits handbook (which is where the first circuit I mentioned
> was derived).  If you don't have either, I can xerox off a copy and send
> them to you.
> 
> Chris MacDonald wrote:
> 
> > Is it possible to build a QVCO around a single LM13700?  I have tried to
> > make one by starting with a 2nd order state variable filter but was
> > unable to achieve strong, stable oscillation without clipping on at
> > least one of the waveforms.  Did I miss something here?  Is there an
> > otherwise "standard" or "classic" circuit for a QVCO?  I don't need
> > through-zero or anything, just nice sine waves up to 25kHz or so.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris MacDonald
> 
> --
>  -Jim
> ------------------------------------------------
> * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> *-----------------------------------------------
> *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> * You didn't pay enough!
> ------------------------------------------------



From ka4hjh at gte.net  Wed Sep 20 08:08:08 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 02:08:08 -0400
Subject: Quadrature VCO
In-Reply-To: <39C7F7B7.C06A7381@silcom.com>
References: <200009181506.IAA24512@shell9.ba.best.com>
 <39C7A663.1462E27C@evenfall.com> <39C7F7B7.C06A7381@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b5ee041633b6@[63.23.233.164]>

>     Yes it is.  In the Nov/.Dec 1980 issue of Polyphony there is a circuit
>that uses a single CA3280, but an LM13700 could be used instead.  Another
>reference, if you don't have that one is page 80 in the Analog Devices
>Non-linear circuits handbook (which is where the first circuit I mentioned
>was derived).  If you don't have either, I can xerox off a copy and send
>them to you.

Jim, you humble SOB. I went to look at that and found out you wrote it!


Still got any 3280's? How about the TD401?  8^)


-- 
Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"



From J.Proveniers at orga.nl  Wed Sep 20 08:24:22 2000
From: J.Proveniers at orga.nl (Jeroen Proveniers)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:24:22 +0200
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
Message-ID: <B17963D44143D311AE320008C7E1CD3E018CE5@EXCHANGE_OBV>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Goddard, Duncan [mailto:goddard.duncan at mtvne.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 6:10 AM
> To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: RE: Oscillator for Juno 106
> 
> 
> >>>think they're available form Roland.
> 
> they were two years ago when I fixed that coked up 106 I 
> wrote about a few
> days ago. I very much doubt whether the whole pcb is still 
> available though
> but.

That's why I did not buy the Juno 106 I saw it in a musicstore a few months
ago, because of one the DCOs was broken and it could not be repaired by
Roland anymore. Besides, they asked too much for a defective unit (300USD),
although it still works in poly 1 mode or so. If it was not defective, I
would have bought it. I played it for a while and was quite impressed.

JJ



From czech at Micronas.Com  Wed Sep 20 09:40:43 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:40:43 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Quadrature VCO
Message-ID: <200009200740.JAA21953@ikarus.intermetall.de>

Look at J.H.'s quadrature triangle vco.
It was intended as low frequency modulator, 
optimising for tracking may be a problem.

m.c.


:::Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:33:11 -0700
:::From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
:::To: macdonald at evenfall.com
:::Cc: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
:::Subject: Re: Quadrature VCO
:::Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
:::
:::    Yes it is.  In the Nov/.Dec 1980 issue of Polyphony there is a circuit
:::that uses a single CA3280, but an LM13700 could be used instead.  Another
:::reference, if you don't have that one is page 80 in the Analog Devices
:::Non-linear circuits handbook (which is where the first circuit I mentioned
:::was derived).  If you don't have either, I can xerox off a copy and send
:::them to you.
:::
:::Chris MacDonald wrote:
:::
:::> Is it possible to build a QVCO around a single LM13700?  I have tried to
:::> make one by starting with a 2nd order state variable filter but was
:::> unable to achieve strong, stable oscillation without clipping on at
:::> least one of the waveforms.  Did I miss something here?  Is there an
:::> otherwise "standard" or "classic" circuit for a QVCO?  I don't need
:::> through-zero or anything, just nice sine waves up to 25kHz or so.
:::>
:::> Thanks,
:::>
:::> Chris MacDonald
:::
:::--
::: -Jim
:::------------------------------------------------
:::* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
:::*-----------------------------------------------
:::*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
:::* You didn't pay enough!
:::------------------------------------------------
:::




From boldman at interplanet.it  Wed Sep 20 10:33:34 2000
From: boldman at interplanet.it (riccardo)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:33:34 +0200
Subject: buick roadmaster (was minimoog clone)
In-Reply-To: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D24@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000920103334.007eba80@pop.interplanet.it>


Hi,

weren't the wooden panels on the roadmaster made of vinyl?
I bought mine without them because I thought they were ugly.

Original minimoog wood is also very bad due to the poor finishing.
On my three original minis I took all the wood off, and I got it buffed and
sprayed again. The result is astounding, like a Les Paul top.
My 3 minimoog clones are 3 rackmount spaces each, black panel, white writings.
I did not add many controls, but I haven't been able to fit the original
knobs on it.

ciao
riccardo

P.S.: sorry for the off topic (cars, wood work.....) 




From nabla_bk at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 10:47:50 2000
From: nabla_bk at hotmail.com (Bjørn Kolbrek)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:47:50 GMT
Subject: unsubscribe synth-diy
Message-ID: <F94ZTW5k1Ed28kIN4Mm00009697@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe synth-diy
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From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep 20 15:52:46 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 06:52:46 -0700
Subject: Quadrature VCO
References: <200009181506.IAA24512@shell9.ba.best.com>
	 <39C7A663.1462E27C@evenfall.com> <39C7F7B7.C06A7381@silcom.com> <p04330103b5ee041633b6@[63.23.233.164]>
Message-ID: <39C8C12E.2A554ECE@silcom.com>



KA4HJH wrote:

> >     Yes it is.  In the Nov/.Dec 1980 issue of Polyphony there is a circuit
> >that uses a single CA3280, but an LM13700 could be used instead.  Another
> >reference, if you don't have that one is page 80 in the Analog Devices
> >Non-linear circuits handbook (which is where the first circuit I mentioned
> >was derived).  If you don't have either, I can xerox off a copy and send
> >them to you.
>
> Jim, you humble SOB. I went to look at that and found out you wrote it!
>
> Still got any 3280's? How about the TD401?  8^)

    The TD401 was a matched (and that term is used loosely here, delta Vbe was
10mV) PNP transistor.  You can probably match a pair of 2n3906's a lot better
than that, or I would be willing to bet just picking two at random would probbly
be matched better than that.  The TD401 was convienent because it was a dual,
and wasn't very expensive.  Sprague, who made the TD401, put that part out to
pasutre a long time ago.  I do have the CA3280.  I got mine from Newark.  I am
also willing to sell mine.  I can't remember how much, off the top of my head,
but are listed on my web site http://www.silcom.com/~patchell.


>
>
> --
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"

    -Jim





From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Sep 20 16:52:22 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:52:22 +0100
Subject: minimoog clone
References: <F238BDUsJb7DpKGqJYF00005b32@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001301c02312$86e964c0$ac52883e@default>

>Since you mentioned the ProOne... that is an instrument that truly
deserves a clone.

I don't think so. I like the Pro-1 but it sounds like everything else
with CEMs in. If you were to go the CEM route the E&MM Spectrum synth is
as good as it gets. But I do like the CEM based stuff, I don't think
they are worthy of spending ages laying out loads of boards, or one big
board to get that sound. I already have a Pro-1, well actually a
modified OB-Sx board in a 2U rack, and it does sound nice but not that
good.

I think the System-100/101 keyboard from Roland is truly great. I may
clone that myself very soon and do some boards for it too. It has an
individual sound and is already patchable for sticking it into your
other modules.

>Re: the switch tops... doesn't anyone like mini-toggles? I hate slide
switches!

Yeah, both the Oddy's and the Pro-1a are truly terrible. Somehow the
little switch caps that the Micromoog and Multimoog use seem to feel
better. However, the slide switches are much better when mounted to the
panel and not the PCB. But I like the little toggles, but good ones do
cost quite a bot of money.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan







From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Wed Sep 20 18:53:28 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:53:28 -0700
Subject: Hi from a newbie
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A7E@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

Hi Tim:
I have built several of the FATMan synths and a lot of PAiA gear, and while
not a newbie
to electronics, I am not a designer either-just a builder so far.

There are a few good reasons to start with a FatMan:
a)cost is reasonable
b)If you can solder and follow directions, you will be in good shape.
If something goes wrong and you need help, there is plenty around
from the list and from PAiA.
c)The Fatman has built in MIDI/CV, so you can control it with any Midi
keyboard.
d)It sounds good!
e)There are a number of interesting modifications for the Fatman-some are
very easy to do,
while others are more challenging.
f)It is a good unit to get your feet wet with (so to speak)

If you have never done ANY soldering, then I suggest you do a little of that
first.
Maybe get a simple electronics kit at an electronics store to practice on.
Something cheap.

You dont need a lot of fancy equipment to put together a Fatman, but check
out the 
page on PAiA's website about it.
As for MOTM, while I still dont have one, they are considered very high
quality.
The MOTMs are for building a Modular system, which can be more complicated
to learn to use.
I would save MOTM for later, when you have some experience building a bit.

John Blacet's boards, while not synths in themselves, are pretty easy to do
too and
his instructions (not all of them are kits) are clear.

I am sure the other guys on the list will have additional comments for you.
Regards
Rory McDonald

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Swetonic [mailto:tswetonic at real.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 9:56 PM
To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: Hi from a newbie


Hi, I just joined this list. I love analog synths, and I'm interested in 
learning how to build one. I don't have any electronics knowledge (yep, 
really a newbie!). I've checked out the MOTM kits, and the FatMan from 
paia. Can anyone suggest some projects to start out with that aren't *too* 
intense? Is the FatMan doable for a newbie? Or should I try something much 
smaller?

Thanks,

Tim



From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 19:01:34 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:01:34 GMT
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <F274f2LTrpwACkWHZqY0001246c@hotmail.com>

Well....

My "ProOne" comments really was with respect to archetecture. The Mod 
section
is incredibly flexible for as simple as it is. If that was at the
left hand side of a minimoog clone, it would be a great improvement.

I would not use CEM's anymore for new design... too worried about
their continued life... otoh anything thru-hole is destined to die
sooner or later anyway.

I just bought 6 mini-toggles for about $5 each (special purpose so I had no 
shopping options) but I am RAGGED that Newark needed $8 to ship
them. they would have fit it in one square inch !!!

H^)  harry


>From: "Tony Allgood" <oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk>
>Reply-To: "Tony Allgood" <oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: "Synth DIY" <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>Subject: Re: minimoog clone
>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:52:22 +0100
>
> >Since you mentioned the ProOne... that is an instrument that truly
>deserves a clone.
>
>I don't think so. I like the Pro-1 but it sounds like everything else
>with CEMs in. If you were to go the CEM route the E&MM Spectrum synth is
>as good as it gets. But I do like the CEM based stuff, I don't think
>they are worthy of spending ages laying out loads of boards, or one big
>board to get that sound. I already have a Pro-1, well actually a
>modified OB-Sx board in a 2U rack, and it does sound nice but not that
>good.
>
>I think the System-100/101 keyboard from Roland is truly great. I may
>clone that myself very soon and do some boards for it too. It has an
>individual sound and is already patchable for sticking it into your
>other modules.
>
> >Re: the switch tops... doesn't anyone like mini-toggles? I hate slide
>switches!
>
>Yeah, both the Oddy's and the Pro-1a are truly terrible. Somehow the
>little switch caps that the Micromoog and Multimoog use seem to feel
>better. However, the slide switches are much better when mounted to the
>panel and not the PCB. But I like the little toggles, but good ones do
>cost quite a bot of money.
>
>Regards,
>
>Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England
>
>Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
>www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
>My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan
>
>
>
>

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From tswetonic at real.com  Wed Sep 20 19:11:14 2000
From: tswetonic at real.com (Tim Swetonic)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:11:14 -0700
Subject: thanks
Message-ID: <FIEFILPGDHJFBKLACLOJCENJCBAA.tswetonic@real.com>

I just wanted to thank everyone for answering my question, and helping out a
newbie. Some lists to which I've subscribed think newbies are a drag - not
this list. That's awesome!




From drew at pctc.com  Wed Sep 20 19:28:33 2000
From: drew at pctc.com (Drew Smith)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:28:33 -0700
Subject: DeOxit?
Message-ID: <39C8F3C1.A41E1BC9@pctc.com>


	Hey folks,

	Still a newbie here - trying to clean up some of my older synths.  I've
heard people rant about DeOxit, so I bought a can - D5, I think.  Little
aerosol thing.

	My question is - what parts are suitable?  I know it cleans out pots,
but I'm really hesitant to use anything on sliders or switches... what
is the "right" way to use this stuff?

	Cheers,
	- Drew.	



--
Drew Smith, UNIX Network Administrator
Pacific Corporate Trust Company, Vancouver



From daniel.araya at mail.bip.net  Wed Sep 20 19:35:28 2000
From: daniel.araya at mail.bip.net (Daniel Araya)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:35:28 +0200
Subject: minimoog clone
In-Reply-To: <F238BDUsJb7DpKGqJYF00005b32@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.0.1.20000920115808.01959e10@pop3.bip.net>

Hi!

While we are on the topic of cloning...

Hasn't anyone tried to clone the OSCar? It's a complicated machine but i
think most of the components are still available today.

The CPU & voice-generating card is only 16 by 13 cm and most of it is
occupied by the Z80 processor and it's controller ic's, memory, eprom,
ADC0804, DAC0808, 4 lm13600's, 2 40446 pll's, a 6116 static ram and som
assorted logic ic's and OP-amp's. The midi pcb is quite straight-forward to.
The complete schematic and the eprom-data for the OSCar is available on the
net somwhere, i don't remember where i got it.


Anyone?

/Daniel







From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep 20 20:51:53 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:51:53 +0200
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
In-Reply-To: <20000920001310U.cfmd@swipnet.se>
References: <000f01c02280$1350e200$188c883e@trevspc>
	<20000920001310U.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <20000920205153F.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
Subject: Re: Oscillator for Juno 106
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:13:10 +0200

Bugger!!!

> MC5534A, isn't that just Motorola's (now ON-Semiconductors) labeling of our
> beloved NE5534A?
> 
> BTW, the 5534 is a dual op-amp...

The 5534 is naturally the single op-amp where as 5533 is the dual version and
5532 is the budget dual version. I saw the error the split picosecond after
hitting the send button...

Cheers,
Magnus




From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Wed Sep 20 20:59:30 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:59:30 +0100
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D3B@LON-MAIL07>

>>>I just bought 6 mini-toggles for about $5 each (special purpose so I had
no 
> shopping options) but I am RAGGED that Newark needed $8 to ship
> them. they would have fit it in one square inch !!!<<<
> 
not unusual in broadcast engineering- I've paid sony ?1.20 (almost 2 bucks)
for a grub-screw before now, and had it turn up in a plastic ziplok inside a
cardboard box big enough to accomodate a housebrick.

meanwhile, I've started toying with the idea of removing the metal part of
the pro-1's case and substituting something almost identical but with the
mod-matrix replaced with (is this turning into an obsession?) a mini-pin
patch thing. all the duff switchgear would go, too, which means (probably)
panel-mounting the replacements, as decent toggles or whatever wouldn't fit
onto the pcb.
(I think those slidey switches are toilet anyway, but they're worse when
they're pcb mounted and the whole pcb is supported by adjacent pots. in the
prodigal, the pcb is properly bolted to the panel and none of the components
take the same sort of stress; they last much longer. any flexing of the
board is better distributed.)

maybe I'd need to add some buffering for the bits of the synth that
unexpectedly find themselves turned into mod-sources/destinations, and I
could fit some (more) attenuators in the mod-routing to allow blending of
sources (say, lfo and filt env both to pwm, while lfo alone goes to osc 1&2
freq....).
the immediate appeal of this idea is that the metalwork concerned is fairly
straightforward, though the benefits to the useability and reliability of
the synth are obvious too.
I think I'd drop the whole pcb into a lower position in the case and
panel-mount all the pots too.

d.



***************************************************************************
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From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Sep 20 21:02:19 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:02:19 +0200
Subject: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
In-Reply-To: <F310rM3TbhyF2fPmsSV0000f973@hotmail.com>
References: <F310rM3TbhyF2fPmsSV0000f973@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000920210219S.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Saw Frequency doubler and Phase Shifter
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:22:33 GMT

> Hi.

Hi there Bj?rn and everybody...

> > > It will do all the way down to + - 5 volt if cmos op amps
> > > are used. It worked nice on my bread board at - +12 volt.
> >
> >Ah, but I refered to that the fact that for a "perfect mix" the comparators 
> > >swing should be mixed so that it has the same amplitude jump as the 
> >original >sawtooth as they come out of the output mix. The mixing I set up 
> >was based on >the +/- 15V op-amp swing and +/- 5V sawtooth swing 
> >assumptions. The ratio 3:1 >should be kept for the intended operation, 
> >rescaling would be necessary >otherwise.
> 
> Yes i know, all i was saying was that it works nice
> all the way down to +-5 volt "including" rescaling
> of the resistors.The message was that a Cmos often swings
> wey close to the rails so for 0 to+5 volt or +-5 volt designs
> bipolar has its limits if one want perfect +-5 volt wave shapes.

Ah, OK. I see.

Cheers,
Magnus



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Wed Sep 20 21:52:00 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:52:00 +0100
Subject: DeOxit?
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D3E@LON-MAIL07>

>>>My question is - what parts are suitable?  I know it cleans out pots,
> but I'm really hesitant to use anything on sliders or switches... what
> is the "right" way to use this stuff?<<<
> 
I have no idea what "deoxit" is composed of, but I'd be v.wary of going
anywhere near the insides of a synth, let alone the front panel or other
cosmetically enhanced area of y'r toys, with anything that smells or looks
like it might be a solvent of some sort. the "ox" bit instantly makes me
worried.

all manner of switchgear, including pots, reward careful disassembly and
equally careful friction-cleaning. tiny bits of wood are good for scraping
crap off copper contacts.
another caveat is that the propellant-base of some of these supposably inert
electrical contact cleaners can form deposits of it's own and/or be
conductive to some degree.
can you get hold of anything like wd40? or propelled iso-propyl alcohol? but
the most important bit is disassemble the bits you want to clean, so you can
see what you're doing to them and test small areas first. if nothing else,
this then forces you to allow time (while you re-assemble) for any residual
propellant to boil off.

d.


***************************************************************************
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of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
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not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it
in any form whatsoever.
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*****************************************************************************



From dougt at cancerboard.ab.ca  Wed Sep 20 22:22:21 2000
From: dougt at cancerboard.ab.ca (Doug Tymofichuk)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:22:21 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time)
Subject: minimoog clone
In-Reply-To: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D3B@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10009201421.A@tmg04.cancerboard.ab.ca>


> >>>I just bought 6 mini-toggles for about $5 each (special 
> purpose so I had no 
> > shopping options) but I am RAGGED that Newark needed $8 
> to ship > them. they would have fit it in one square inch 
> !!!<<< > 
> not unusual in broadcast engineering- I've paid sony ?1.20 
> (almost 2 bucks) for a grub-screw before now, and had it 
> turn up in a plastic ziplok inside a cardboard box big 
> enough to accomodate a housebrick.

Was it a static-safe ziplock bag?   ;-)

----------------------
Doug Tymofichuk
dougt at cancerboard.ab.ca




From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Wed Sep 20 23:08:19 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:08:19 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A82@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

Well boys and girls, I believe its time to face the music and let a new uP into
my circle. I have choosen Atmel AVRs for three very good reasons:

1.  Folks on the list gave Atmel the "thumbs up"
2.  DigiKey has the STK200 starter kit for $49
3.  The voices in my head told me to do it.

My old workhorse, the Motorola 68HC11, will still be around of course. We're old
friends, if you know what I mean.


Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com





From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 23:43:13 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:43:13 GMT
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <F334GJ2TUSzbAUfKRfc00000177@hotmail.com>

No... it was a plastic bag... inside a static safe cardboard
box with conductive lining and a piece of pink foam to prevent
rattle, inside a bubble-pack mailing envelope...

Oh... if only Mouser had those parts ....

H^) harry


>From: Doug Tymofichuk <dougt at cancerboard.ab.ca>
>Reply-To: dougt at cancerboard.ab.ca
>To: "Goddard, Duncan" <goddard.duncan at mtvne.com>
>CC: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: Re: RE: minimoog clone
>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:22:21 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time)
>
>
> > >>>I just bought 6 mini-toggles for about $5 each (special
> > purpose so I had no
> > > shopping options) but I am RAGGED that Newark needed $8
> > to ship > them. they would have fit it in one square inch
> > !!!<<< >
> > not unusual in broadcast engineering- I've paid sony ?1.20
> > (almost 2 bucks) for a grub-screw before now, and had it
> > turn up in a plastic ziplok inside a cardboard box big
> > enough to accomodate a housebrick.
>
>Was it a static-safe ziplock bag?   ;-)
>
>----------------------
>Doug Tymofichuk
>dougt at cancerboard.ab.ca
>

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From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 23:44:59 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:44:59 GMT
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <F268wpjuu79HMLGHUok0000018f@hotmail.com>

I like the Mini 5 better. More Power !!!

(JMHO...)

H^)  harry


>From: "tomg" <efm3 at mediaone.net>
>To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>Subject: Re: minimoog clone
>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:36:05 -0700
>
>Sorry, I hate starting a thread and then vanishing for a day or two
>but It wasn't my fault. AT&T has had me disconnected for almost
>2 days. No Internet at all!! I just though I had it "bad" while DIY
>was down. anyway....
>
>I drew this a while back thinking of a souped up mini.....Maybe
>we can modify this one...
>
>Mini 5 - Concept Drawing
>http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mini5.pdf
>
>After thinking about it for a month or two, I pretty much settled on
>a more "faithful" clone. I think modifying it too much would change
>the panel "too much"?  But.... tell me I'm wrong I can handle it.;-)
>
>Mini Moog Clone - Concept Drawing
>http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mmg-clone.pdf
>
>Tom
>
>
>

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From urekar.m at EUnet.yu  Thu Sep 21 01:15:19 2000
From: urekar.m at EUnet.yu (>>>marjan<<<)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 01:15:19 +0200
Subject: New EFM
References: <000e01c0235a$534f2b20$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <39C94507.7193EA20@eunet.yu>

> PUT VCO
> http://www.xavax.com/efm/pdf/put-vco1.pdf
> Interesting but almost useless VCO. Interesting because it uses a Programmable
> Uni-junction Transistor. Almost useless because it has a limited 30Hz to 2.5KHz
> range and goes flat after 3 1/2 octaves. If you wanted to build a two octave "toy"
> synth this might be ok....I based this on my first successful VCO (the VCO-1) and
> I am fairly disappointed with the results. The VCO-1 has a 2Hz to 20KHz range
> and is good for 5 octaves. Unfortunately it uses a now rare and expensive 2N4853

I believe you can sub it with two matched trannys (as all 4-layer
thingies)
and it works :) Not shure about the range, but I know I had tried it
long
time ago. There's also trick to make it with LM3900, see NS app
datasheet for
LM (AN-72?). 


Also interesting 4qd's site: 
http://www.4qd.co.uk/ccts/putpr.html



From efm3 at mediaone.net  Thu Sep 21 01:24:42 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:24:42 -0700
Subject: New EFM
Message-ID: <000e01c0235a$534f2b20$0200a8c0@pc102>


What's New
http://www.xavax.com/efm/new-efm.html
Upload history file - I tried this before, maybe this time I'll keep it up to date.

PUT VCO
http://www.xavax.com/efm/pdf/put-vco1.pdf 
Interesting but almost useless VCO. Interesting because it uses a Programmable 
Uni-junction Transistor. Almost useless because it has a limited 30Hz to 2.5KHz 
range and goes flat after 3 1/2 octaves. If you wanted to build a two octave "toy" 
synth this might be ok....I based this on my first successful VCO (the VCO-1) and 
I am fairly disappointed with the results. The VCO-1 has a 2Hz to 20KHz range 
and is good for 5 octaves. Unfortunately it uses a now rare and expensive 2N4853 
Uni-junction transistor. I tried several expo approaches. I was able to get 4 1/2 
octaves before it went flat but unable to do anything about the range. Maybe someone 
else can find a way to extend the range or use it as a non-musical vco of some sort.

Mad Mouse 2 (3r) - Concept Drawing
http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mm2-3r.pdf  A patchable Mad Mouse 2.







From efm3 at mediaone.net  Thu Sep 21 01:36:05 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:36:05 -0700
Subject: minimoog clone
References: <F274f2LTrpwACkWHZqY0001246c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c0235b$9118eda0$0200a8c0@pc102>

Sorry, I hate starting a thread and then vanishing for a day or two
but It wasn't my fault. AT&T has had me disconnected for almost
2 days. No Internet at all!! I just though I had it "bad" while DIY
was down. anyway....

I drew this a while back thinking of a souped up mini.....Maybe
we can modify this one...

Mini 5 - Concept Drawing
http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mini5.pdf  

After thinking about it for a month or two, I pretty much settled on
a more "faithful" clone. I think modifying it too much would change 
the panel "too much"?  But.... tell me I'm wrong I can handle it.;-)

Mini Moog Clone - Concept Drawing
http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mmg-clone.pdf  

Tom






From efm3 at mediaone.net  Thu Sep 21 02:37:06 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:37:06 -0700
Subject: DeOxit?
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D3E@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <001e01c02364$16714e40$0200a8c0@pc102>

DeOxit is Cramolin without the "bad stuff" Moog used this contact
cleaner and recommended it for pots trimmers and switches. I use
it when I need to. Dry air ( no oilers ) is best because there is no
residue but it won't always work. DeOxit does a good job if you
need it. Do NOT use WD40 on anything electronic....well maybe
spark-plug wires but not your synth!

Tom


Subject: RE: DeOxit?


> >>>My question is - what parts are suitable?  I know it cleans out pots,
> > but I'm really hesitant to use anything on sliders or switches... what
> > is the "right" way to use this stuff?<<<
> > 
> I have no idea what "deoxit" is composed of, but I'd be v.wary of going
> anywhere near the insides of a synth, let alone the front panel or other
> cosmetically enhanced area of y'r toys, with anything that smells or looks
> like it might be a solvent of some sort. the "ox" bit instantly makes me
> worried.
> 
> all manner of switchgear, including pots, reward careful disassembly and
> equally careful friction-cleaning. tiny bits of wood are good for scraping
> crap off copper contacts.
> another caveat is that the propellant-base of some of these supposably inert
> electrical contact cleaners can form deposits of it's own and/or be
> conductive to some degree.
> can you get hold of anything like wd40? or propelled iso-propyl alcohol? but
> the most important bit is disassemble the bits you want to clean, so you can
> see what you're doing to them and test small areas first. if nothing else,
> this then forces you to allow time (while you re-assemble) for any residual
> propellant to boil off.
> 
> d.
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> 
> The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
> of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
> be privileged.  If you are not the addressee of this e-mail you may 
> not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it
> in any form whatsoever.
> If you have received this e-mail in error, please e-mail the sender
> by replying to this message.
> 
> MTV Networks Europe
> *****************************************************************************




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Thu Sep 21 03:50:57 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:50:57 -0700
Subject: minimoog clone
Message-ID: <000f01c0236e$69c88ea0$0200a8c0@pc102>

I forgot to set the protection bit....it's ok now.
http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mmg-clone.pdf

Tom



> Sorry, I hate starting a thread and then vanishing for a day or two
> but It wasn't my fault. AT&T has had me disconnected for almost
> 2 days. No Internet at all!! I just though I had it "bad" while DIY
> was down. anyway....
> 
> I drew this a while back thinking of a souped up mini.....Maybe
> we can modify this one...
> 
> Mini 5 - Concept Drawing
> http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mini5.pdf  
> 
> After thinking about it for a month or two, I pretty much settled on
> a more "faithful" clone. I think modifying it too much would change 
> the panel "too much"?  But.... tell me I'm wrong I can handle it.;-)
> 
> Mini Moog Clone - Concept Drawing
> http://www.xavax.com/efm/pcb/mmg-clone.pdf  
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 




From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 21 05:14:50 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:14:50 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A82@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <39C97D2A.23C360DA@silcom.com>



Tim Ressel wrote:

> Well boys and girls, I believe its time to face the music and let a new uP into
> my circle. I have choosen Atmel AVRs for three very good reasons:
>
> 1.  Folks on the list gave Atmel the "thumbs up"
> 2.  DigiKey has the STK200 starter kit for $49

    A price that just can't be beat.

>
> 3.  The voices in my head told me to do it.

    The voices in my head seem to know more than I do.....

>
>
> My old workhorse, the Motorola 68HC11, will still be around of course. We're old
> friends, if you know what I mean.
>

    I chose the AVR for just the reason that the instruction set is more like
Motorolla than the PIC.  At my age, I try to learn as little as possible.  I have
done a little with the PIC, they are neat chips, but I don't like the instruction
set.  I have never used the 68HC11, but I did do some 6800 stuff, and LOTs of 6502
(and lots of 68K, but that is a whole other ball of wax).  The AVR made me feel at
home.

>
> Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
> Hewlett-Packard
> Verifone Division
> 3755 Atherton Rd.
> Rocklin, Cal
> 916-630-2541
> timothy_ressel at hp.com

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Thu Sep 21 05:15:47 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:15:47 -0400
Subject: DeOxit?
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D3E@LON-MAIL07> <001e01c02364$16714e40$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <39C97D62.8CA1C516@prodigy.net>

So I'm still using Cramolin... what will happen to me ???

Two Heads ?  extra Hands ?? Drop Dead ????

H^) harry

tomg wrote:

> DeOxit is Cramolin without the "bad stuff" Moog used this contact
> cleaner and recommended it for pots trimmers and switches. I use
> it when I need to. Dry air ( no oilers ) is best because there is no
> residue but it won't always work. DeOxit does a good job if you
> need it. Do NOT use WD40 on anything electronic....well maybe
> spark-plug wires but not your synth!
>
> Tom
>
> Subject: RE: DeOxit?
>
> > >>>My question is - what parts are suitable?  I know it cleans out pots,
> > > but I'm really hesitant to use anything on sliders or switches... what
> > > is the "right" way to use this stuff?<<<
> > >
> > I have no idea what "deoxit" is composed of, but I'd be v.wary of going
> > anywhere near the insides of a synth, let alone the front panel or other
> > cosmetically enhanced area of y'r toys, with anything that smells or looks
> > like it might be a solvent of some sort. the "ox" bit instantly makes me
> > worried.
> >
> > all manner of switchgear, including pots, reward careful disassembly and
> > equally careful friction-cleaning. tiny bits of wood are good for scraping
> > crap off copper contacts.
> > another caveat is that the propellant-base of some of these supposably inert
> > electrical contact cleaners can form deposits of it's own and/or be
> > conductive to some degree.
> > can you get hold of anything like wd40? or propelled iso-propyl alcohol? but
> > the most important bit is disassemble the bits you want to clean, so you can
> > see what you're doing to them and test small areas first. if nothing else,
> > this then forces you to allow time (while you re-assemble) for any residual
> > propellant to boil off.
> >
> > d.
> >
> >
> > ***************************************************************************
> > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> >
> > The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
> > of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
> > be privileged.  If you are not the addressee of this e-mail you may
> > not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it
> > in any form whatsoever.
> > If you have received this e-mail in error, please e-mail the sender
> > by replying to this message.
> >
> > MTV Networks Europe
> > *****************************************************************************




From thescum at surfree.com  Thu Sep 21 05:48:31 2000
From: thescum at surfree.com (Byron G. Jacquot)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:48:31 -0400
Subject: Time for new uP
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000921034831.0135e4cc@smtp.surfree.com>

>Well boys and girls, I believe its time to face the music and let a new uP into
>my circle. I have choosen Atmel AVRs for three very good reasons:
>
>1.  Folks on the list gave Atmel the "thumbs up"
>2.  DigiKey has the STK200 starter kit for $49
>3.  The voices in my head told me to do it.
>
>My old workhorse, the Motorola 68HC11, will still be around of course.
We're old
>friends, if you know what I mean.

I made the same transition about a year ago, and haven't looked back.  At
first, because the "getting started" kinda of details seemed easier on the
AVR than they did on the HC11, it felt a little less serious than the HC11 had.

But after playing with all of those working registers, and the somewhat more
orthogonal instruction set, it didn't take long to realize that it wasn't
exactly a toy, either.

You'll find that the development tools are somewhat different (I've not yet
found an AVR equivalent to Buffalo-Bug), but still fairly staright ahead.

Byron

(off to learn something more about the ST7 family...)




From guandul at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 06:39:55 2000
From: guandul at hotmail.com (Ramón Mena)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 04:39:55 GMT
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <F239hNzW3l1GM3h3vLg0000064c@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe
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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From jdec at mindspring.com  Thu Sep 21 06:45:27 2000
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:45:27 -0500
Subject: Time for new uP
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A82@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com> <39C97D2A.23C360DA@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39C99267.957A85C4@mindspring.com>

> I chose the AVR for just the reason that the instruction set is more like
> Motorola than the PIC....The AVR made me feel at home.

Oh really!?!?  Well maybe I need to consider the AVR rather than the
PIC which I had also been considering....

Thanks for the insight....

Cheers,

Jeff R. Dec



From ka4hjh at gte.net  Thu Sep 21 06:47:48 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:47:48 -0400
Subject: DeOxit?
In-Reply-To: <001e01c02364$16714e40$0200a8c0@pc102>
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D3E@LON-MAIL07>
 <001e01c02364$16714e40$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <p04330100b5ef431b3c56@[63.23.233.164]>

>Do NOT use WD40 on anything electronic....well maybe
>spark-plug wires but not your synth!

Makes a good flame-thrower in a pinch, but then so do many flammable 
aerosol products.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The 'Remembering Wild Escapades of Youth' Mac Doctor"



From adaaxs at erols.com  Thu Sep 21 07:54:08 2000
From: adaaxs at erols.com (J.G. Wong)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:54:08 -0500
Subject: DeOxit?
References: <39C8F3C1.A41E1BC9@pctc.com>
Message-ID: <39C9A270.1B2882F7@erols.com>

Deoxit is suitable for mosly anything, however , it is contact cleaner
use it sparingly and don't forget that it leaves about a micron of silicone..

G. Wong  
BTW Selling my Mellotron.

Drew Smith wrote:
> 
>         Hey folks,
> 
>         Still a newbie here - trying to clean up some of my older synths.  I've
> heard people rant about DeOxit, so I bought a can - D5, I think.  Little
> aerosol thing.
> 
>         My question is - what parts are suitable?  I know it cleans out pots,
> but I'm really hesitant to use anything on sliders or switches... what
> is the "right" way to use this stuff?
> 
>         Cheers,
>         - Drew.
>



From macdonald at evenfall.com  Thu Sep 21 08:25:53 2000
From: macdonald at evenfall.com (Chris MacDonald)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:25:53 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A82@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <39C9A9F1.2EBC665E@evenfall.com>

I have also been looking into the AT90 series AVRs.  I had a good
experience with the PIC16F84 in the Mini Modular, but the Atmel chips
seem to have a better performance-and-features-to-price ratio.

One attractive feature of the AT90 for me is that it has an instruction
to read data from program memory into a register, something the PIC
instruction set can't do.

The only reservation I have about them came up when I actually tried to
get the starter kit and some chips.  I was unable to find the either
STK200 or the AT90S4433 during several weeks of checking at every
distributor listed by Atmel.  Finally Pioneer-Standard got some of both
in.  Digikey is currently saying about the AT90S4433, "Due to extended
lead-time we are unable to backorder, no delivery date available." 

So I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has had trouble getting Atmel
parts or did I just pick a bad time to start looking?

-Chris MacDonald


Tim Ressel wrote:
> 
> Well boys and girls, I believe its time to face the music and let a new uP into
> my circle. I have choosen Atmel AVRs for three very good reasons:
> 
> 1.  Folks on the list gave Atmel the "thumbs up"
> 2.  DigiKey has the STK200 starter kit for $49
> 3.  The voices in my head told me to do it.
> 
> My old workhorse, the Motorola 68HC11, will still be around of course. We're old
> friends, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
> Hewlett-Packard
> Verifone Division
> 3755 Atherton Rd.
> Rocklin, Cal
> 916-630-2541
> timothy_ressel at hp.com



From don at till.com  Thu Sep 21 10:16:05 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 01:16:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
In-Reply-To: <F158O6AxFWHhpGe5jSc0000e35d@hotmail.com> (bnillson@hotmail.com)
Message-ID: <200009210816.BAA02157@shell9.ba.best.com>

   Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:31:00 +0200
   From: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>

   http://home.swipnet.se/cfmd/synths/schematics/

Wow, that's a very nice idea.  I like it. 

A couple features I noticed: First, it can do thru-zero frequency PM.
By that I mean if you shift the phase backwards quickly you can
briefly take the frequency negative.

Secondly, you can put a number of these in series to do more than
360-degrees of phase shift.

(Ummm, I'm thinking a couple errors crept into the schematic.  Perhaps
the comparator's input are swapped and the resistor values aren't
quite right.  Also, since the circuit is really dependant on the power
supply voltage it would be a good idea to specify that.  You want the
comparator output transition to exactly compensate for the sawtooth
reset, right?)

This circuit is almost the same as the Chroma sawtooth mix.  

Quick description: The Chroma has a comparator, positive input
grounded, negative input has an equal mix of sawtooth and the PWM
control voltage, and the result is a resistor mix of the comparator
output, the PWM control voltage and the sawtooth.  

But the Chroma mixes in twice as much sawtooth because the goal isn't
a phase shifter but a mix of the original sawtooth and the
phase-shifted sawtooth for a thicker sound.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From don at till.com  Thu Sep 21 10:40:32 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 01:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Caravan sound -> Gentle Giant
In-Reply-To: <20000918233226.14535.qmail@meowmix.chek.com>
	(franko@wtvhmail.com)
Message-ID: <200009210840.BAA06869@shell9.ba.best.com>

   Date: 18 Sep 2000 23:32:26 -0000
   From: "frank olivieri" <franko at wtvhmail.com>

   The most incredible organ distortion I have ever heard is on 'Peel
   the Paint' from the Gentle Giant Octopus album. Sounds almost like
   a mechanical scraping. Time to warm up Napster!

I agree.  (Except that "Peel the Paint" is from "Three Friends".)

Now I know this is getting off topic because we don't discuss music
here and Gentle Giant never used a heck of a lot of synths anyway, but
Gentle Giant was one of the most amazing progressive rock bands ever.
If you haven't head them I highly recommend the albums:
  "Three Friends"
  "Octopus"
  "In a Glass House"
  "The Power and the Glory"
  "Free Hand" 
  "Playing the Fool" (live)

There aren't many places you can hear proper electric counterpoint in
5/4 time.

http://www.blazemonger.com/GG

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Sep 21 10:43:32 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:43:32 +0100
Subject: DeOxit?
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D3E@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <00bb01c023a8$305db7a0$9851883e@default>

>My question is - what parts are suitable?  I know it cleans out pots,
> but I'm really hesitant to use anything on sliders or switches... what
> is the "right" way to use this stuff?<

If in doubt, don't use it at all. But I have found they are fine for
most things IF used sparingly. What most of these aerosol cleaners won't
do, even if they say they do are: all slider-pots, faders etc,
vertically mounted ALPS push switches and some types of Japanese pots
which need so much grease in their bearing to keep them revolving
smoothly.

However, when newer electronic devices show signs of dirty
faders/pots/switches, it probably means that the switch/pot is worn out.
No amount of cleaning will solve that one. The worst offenders are those
little tactile push switches found on everything made by Korg and
Roland. The cheapy ALPS faders are terrible things too.

But what about bus bars? Whats everyones favourite method of keyboard
cleaning? Alcohol and a light rub down with paper is my favourite. But I
di have this amzing stuff a long time ago that was an aerosol
cleaner/lubricant that worked a treat. But, I have never seen it since.
Made by Electrolube, but full of CFC.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Thu Sep 21 12:19:06 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:19:06 +0200
Subject: Caravan sound -> Gentle Giant
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028814FC@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>   The most incredible organ distortion I have ever heard is on
'Peel
	>   the Paint' from the Gentle Giant Octopus album. Sounds almost
like
	>   a mechanical scraping. Time to warm up Napster!
	>
	> I agree.  (Except that "Peel the Paint" is from "Three Friends".)

Yes. And I thought that organ solo was on "Working all day". Time for me
to hear Three Friends again.
BTW, the last piece of the album, title track "Three Friends" is one of my
favorite prog tunes - something that will go round in your head for a long
time. I mean, in prog rock there is always the adventurous and the
beautiful,
and "Three Friends" falls in the "beautiful" category (like King Crimson's
"Starless").

	>Now I know this is getting off topic because we don't discuss music
	>here and Gentle Giant never used a heck of a lot of synths anyway,
but
	>Gentle Giant was one of the most amazing progressive rock bands
ever.
	>If you haven't head them I highly recommend the albums:
	>  "Three Friends"
	>  "Octopus"
	>  "In a Glass House"
	>  "The Power and the Glory"
	>  "Free Hand" 
	>  "Playing the Fool" (live)

I fully agree with Don, and I'd like to add their self titled "Gentle Giant"
debut
album. It's not as daring as the following ones, but I found it a good
starting
point for getting into the group. At least it was for me.

When you're familiar with the studio albums, check out the recently released
BBC 
sessions "Out Of The Fire".

JH.




From Martin.Ostermayer at bln.siemens.de  Thu Sep 21 13:48:24 2000
From: Martin.Ostermayer at bln.siemens.de (Ostermayer Martin ICM CD MP WM RD 4 (WS))
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:48:24 +0200
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <A63CB3541733D411969B0008C7731D87524528@blns811a.bln.pn.siemens.de>

unsubscribe



From t.hogers at home.nl  Thu Sep 21 14:19:37 2000
From: t.hogers at home.nl (Theo)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:19:37 +0200
Subject: Time for new uP
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A82@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com> <39C9A9F1.2EBC665E@evenfall.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c023c6$360ea4c0$0400a8c0@cc17547a>


----- Original Message -----
From: Chris MacDonald <macdonald at evenfall.com>

> So I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has had trouble getting Atmel
> parts or did I just pick a bad time to start looking?
>
> -Chris MacDonald
>

No AVR are more or less sold out till next spring.
I ordered 100ps 90S2313 a while ago and got 5ps actually delivered.
There are still some dil parts out there, mostly at 2 time the normal price.
It seems you can forget about soic and tqfp completely :((

I've even considered to go for PIC,
however the PIC instructionset and (lack off) registers made me decide to
wait for better times.

The SX uC looks like a better alternative,
still the AVR is easier to work with (well just my opinion o'cause).

Cheers, Theo




From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Thu Sep 21 14:39:55 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:39:55 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA0288166C@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>This circuit is almost the same as the Chroma sawtooth mix.  
	>
	>Quick description: The Chroma has a comparator, positive input
	>grounded, negative input has an equal mix of sawtooth and the PWM
	>control voltage, and the result is a resistor mix of the comparator
	>output, the PWM control voltage and the sawtooth.  
	>
	>But the Chroma mixes in twice as much sawtooth because the goal
isn't
	>a phase shifter but a mix of the original sawtooth and the
	>phase-shifted sawtooth for a thicker sound.
	>
	>  -- Don

Is the Chroma circuit on the web somewhere ?

JH.



From efm3 at mediaone.net  Thu Sep 21 14:56:23 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 05:56:23 -0700
Subject: DeOxit?
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D3E@LON-MAIL07> <001e01c02364$16714e40$0200a8c0@pc102> <39C97D62.8CA1C516@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <001801c023cb$5a5c3720$0200a8c0@pc102>


So you are the one that's responsible for that 200 sq mile
hole in the ozone! Lot's of CFCs Harry. The EPA made
them change a few things but mostly I think it was the
propellant. You can't get the liquid eye-dropper bottle 
anymore ether...at least I haven't seen it.

It may be psycho....Hell! I might be psycho but I don't think 
it works as well as it used to. When I  first started using it, 
it was like magic. I was dragging out every piece of scratchy
equipment we had. BTW I have one can left too that's just 
for my stuff. I remember a lot of  techs bought a case before 
the change, not me though. I don't remember my reasoning...
I was probably broke..;-)

Tom 


> So I'm still using Cramolin... what will happen to me ???
> 
> Two Heads ?  extra Hands ?? Drop Dead ????
> 
> H^) harry
> 
> tomg wrote:
> 
> > DeOxit is Cramolin without the "bad stuff" Moog used this contact
> > cleaner and recommended it for pots trimmers and switches. I use
> > it when I need to. Dry air ( no oilers ) is best because there is no
> > residue but it won't always work. DeOxit does a good job if you
> > need it. Do NOT use WD40 on anything electronic....well maybe
> > spark-plug wires but not your synth!
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Subject: RE: DeOxit?
> >
> > > >>>My question is - what parts are suitable?  I know it cleans out pots,
> > > > but I'm really hesitant to use anything on sliders or switches... what
> > > > is the "right" way to use this stuff?<<<
> > > >
> > > I have no idea what "deoxit" is composed of, but I'd be v.wary of going
> > > anywhere near the insides of a synth, let alone the front panel or other
> > > cosmetically enhanced area of y'r toys, with anything that smells or looks
> > > like it might be a solvent of some sort. the "ox" bit instantly makes me
> > > worried.
> > >
> > > all manner of switchgear, including pots, reward careful disassembly and
> > > equally careful friction-cleaning. tiny bits of wood are good for scraping
> > > crap off copper contacts.
> > > another caveat is that the propellant-base of some of these supposably inert
> > > electrical contact cleaners can form deposits of it's own and/or be
> > > conductive to some degree.
> > > can you get hold of anything like wd40? or propelled iso-propyl alcohol? but
> > > the most important bit is disassemble the bits you want to clean, so you can
> > > see what you're doing to them and test small areas first. if nothing else,
> > > this then forces you to allow time (while you re-assemble) for any residual
> > > propellant to boil off.
> > >
> > > d.
> > >
> > >
> > > ***************************************************************************
> > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> > >
> > > The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
> > > of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
> > > be privileged.  If you are not the addressee of this e-mail you may
> > > not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it
> > > in any form whatsoever.
> > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please e-mail the sender
> > > by replying to this message.
> > >
> > > MTV Networks Europe
> > > *****************************************************************************
> 




From sdcurtin at lucent.com  Thu Sep 21 15:37:47 2000
From: sdcurtin at lucent.com (Curtin, Steven D (Steven))
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:37:47 -0400
Subject: Time for new uP
Message-ID: <F38185D061EBD21185F10008C7F926CE028E20AB@nj7460exch007u.ho.lucent.com>

What have people been using for a development system?  I got the starter
kit, which generously included a download cable and app, but the cheapest C
compiler for it seems to be the Codecraft, for another $90US.  One thing
going for the 68HC11 was the in-ROM Forth from New Micros, complete with an
interactive assembler.  Once I get the Codecraft I'll just compile pForth
(www.softsynth.com) and be off and running.

Here's a good link on AVR info, from Dontronics.

http://www.dontronics.com/atmel.html

Steve C

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Curtin  
Lucent Technologies Microelectronics
ph: (732)949-4404   fax: (732)949-6711
http://curtin.emf.org
sdcurtin at lucent.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------


> ----------
> From: 	Byron G. Jacquot[SMTP:thescum at surfree.com]
> Sent: 	Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:48 PM
> To: 	synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: 	Re: Time for new uP
> 
> >Well boys and girls, I believe its time to face the music and let a new
> uP into
> >my circle. I have choosen Atmel AVRs for three very good reasons:
> >
> >1.  Folks on the list gave Atmel the "thumbs up"
> >2.  DigiKey has the STK200 starter kit for $49
> >3.  The voices in my head told me to do it.
> >
> >My old workhorse, the Motorola 68HC11, will still be around of course.
> We're old
> >friends, if you know what I mean.
> 
> I made the same transition about a year ago, and haven't looked back.  At
> first, because the "getting started" kinda of details seemed easier on the
> AVR than they did on the HC11, it felt a little less serious than the HC11
> had.
> 
> But after playing with all of those working registers, and the somewhat
> more
> orthogonal instruction set, it didn't take long to realize that it wasn't
> exactly a toy, either.
> 
> You'll find that the development tools are somewhat different (I've not
> yet
> found an AVR equivalent to Buffalo-Bug), but still fairly staright ahead.
> 
> Byron
> 
> (off to learn something more about the ST7 family...)
> 



From jdec at mindspring.com  Thu Sep 21 15:38:04 2000
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:38:04 -0500
Subject: Time for new uP
Message-ID: <39CA0F3C.5A908C1D@mindspring.com>

So which AVR model is best suited for MIDI, meaning it has a
built in UART????

Do any have 8 channel A/D conveters like the PIC????

Cheers,

Jeff R. Dec



From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 21 15:57:21 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 06:57:21 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A82@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com> <39C9A9F1.2EBC665E@evenfall.com>
Message-ID: <39CA13C1.F6153D2B@silcom.com>



Chris MacDonald wrote:

>
> So I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has had trouble getting Atmel
> parts or did I just pick a bad time to start looking?
>

    This has been a much disscussed topic on comp.arch.embedded.  In europe, it seems,
the shortage is even worse.  I had no trouble when I purchased my starter kit, and I
have yet to purchase any other parts other than what came in my starter kit.  Last
time I checked digikey, the AT90S8515, which is the part I chose, still had plenty of
stock (couple months ago now).  The AVR is very popular for use in cell phones, and
Atmel is evidently turning them out as fast as they can, according to what I have
read.  Like all things in life, there is always a down side to everything.

    -Jim

>
> -Chris MacDonald
>
> Tim Ressel wrote:
> >
> > Well boys and girls, I believe its time to face the music and let a new uP into
> > my circle. I have choosen Atmel AVRs for three very good reasons:
> >
> > 1.  Folks on the list gave Atmel the "thumbs up"
> > 2.  DigiKey has the STK200 starter kit for $49
> > 3.  The voices in my head told me to do it.
> >
> > My old workhorse, the Motorola 68HC11, will still be around of course. We're old
> > friends, if you know what I mean.
> >
> > Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
> > Hewlett-Packard
> > Verifone Division
> > 3755 Atherton Rd.
> > Rocklin, Cal
> > 916-630-2541
> > timothy_ressel at hp.com




From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 21 16:06:46 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 07:06:46 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
References: <39CA0F3C.5A908C1D@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <39CA15F6.C227313F@silcom.com>

    I picked the AT90S8515.  I believe most of the models have UART's.
The A/D's is another story.  You basically trade of memory expansion
capabilityes for A/D.  The 8515 part you can expand the DATA memory (not
program memory) externally.  The sister part, 8535, has 8 A/D channels,
but you cannot expand the DATA memory.  In the standard parts, this is a
trade off.  For the life of me, I cannot remember if the MEGA devices
have the same tradeoff.  But they are more expensive, and also, from
what I understand, even more unavailiable.

    Although, for hobby stuff, I don't generally consisder the
availiablilty issue as significant for uP, since, in any home project,
the number of micros needed is generally pretty small.  If you plan on
selling the thing....well, that is another ball of wax.

    -Jim

BrightBoy wrote:

> So which AVR model is best suited for MIDI, meaning it has a
> built in UART????
>
> Do any have 8 channel A/D conveters like the PIC????
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff R. Dec




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 16:25:55 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:25:55 GMT
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
Message-ID: <F239nyeKzGZuNY1SWoB00000aa3@hotmail.com>

>    http://home.swipnet.se/cfmd/synths/schematics/

>Wow, that's a very nice idea.  I like it.

>A couple features I noticed: First, it can do thru-zero frequency PM.
>By that I mean if you shift the phase backwards quickly you can
>briefly take the frequency negative.

The ViBrAtO effect!!! ho hum!

>Secondly, you can put a number of these in series to do more than
>360-degrees of phase shift.

Not only that, as i did in my PM osc,i use phase shifting of
squares and saws of lower and higher octaves to create
a sort of additive oscillator. Some of the waves does
sound really strange.

>(Ummm, I'm thinking a couple errors crept into the schematic.  >Perhaps the 
>comparator's input are swapped and the resistor values >aren't quite right. 
>  Also, since the circuit is really dependant on >the power supply voltage 
>it would be a good idea to specify that. You want the comparator output 
>transition to exactly compensate for >the sawtooth reset, right?)

It dosent matter you can swap either input, it just shift the phase.

>This circuit is almost the same as the Chroma sawtooth mix.

>Quick description: The Chroma has a comparator, positive input
>grounded, negative input has an equal mix of sawtooth and the PWM
>control voltage, and the result is a resistor mix of the comparator
>output, the PWM control voltage and the sawtooth.

The Chroma uses offset voltages on the + input and
to the summing mixer.

>But the Chroma mixes in twice as much sawtooth because the goal isn't
>a phase shifter but a mix of the original sawtooth and the
>phase-shifted sawtooth for a thicker sound.

Actually when i run Magnus shifter and the Chroma the end
result is the same. Functionally I dont se any difference
between them. The design difference is that Magnus is a
+- 5 volt and the Chroma is a 0 to +5 volt.
And Magnus use a different aproach to DC rejection then
the Chroma does , Both cirquits are capable to do PM.

The ViBrAtO effect!!!

BJ

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From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Thu Sep 21 16:50:57 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:50:57 +0100
Subject: DeOxit?
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D51@LON-MAIL07>

>>>>>Do NOT use WD40 on anything electronic....well maybe
> >>>>>spark-plug wires but not your synth!
> 
>>>Makes a good flame-thrower in a pinch, but then so do many flammable 
>>>aerosol products.


curious. I've never had any problems with wd40. it's great for cleaning
non-electrical stuff too. I've never tried using the tin as a flame-thrower
though; I expect this holds true for pretty much anything with a
propellant.....

d.


***************************************************************************
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of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
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From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Thu Sep 21 16:52:04 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:52:04 +0100
Subject: DeOxit?
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D39474C4D52@LON-MAIL07>

>>>G. Wong  
> BTW Selling my Mellotron.
> 
> 
WHY WHY WHY??????

duncan/400#1098



***************************************************************************
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of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
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not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it
in any form whatsoever.
If you have received this e-mail in error, please e-mail the sender
by replying to this message.

MTV Networks Europe
*****************************************************************************



From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Thu Sep 21 17:26:56 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:26:56 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A8D@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

Don't get me worng, PIC has its place. I have not used them (yet), but the
thought of an 8 pin uP for those small projects is delightful.

Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com



-----Original Message-----
From: BrightBoy [mailto:jdec at mindspring.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 9:45 PM
To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: Re: Time for new uP


> I chose the AVR for just the reason that the instruction set is more like
> Motorola than the PIC....The AVR made me feel at home.

Oh really!?!?  Well maybe I need to consider the AVR rather than the
PIC which I had also been considering....

Thanks for the insight....

Cheers,

Jeff R. Dec



From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Thu Sep 21 17:34:34 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:34:34 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A8F@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

Well, shucks. You see what happens? You get up the courage to push past your
neophobia, and for what?? no stock until spring?!?  Aaaarrrrggggghhhh!!!

Luckilly for me I work for HP. Wonderous things happen when you mention HP, and
the trillioins of ICs we buy every year (not an exaggeration!). I'll just mosey
over to the Material Engineering department and see what they can scare up for
me.

Its good to be the HP engineer!!!     ;-)

Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Theo [mailto:t.hogers at home.nl]
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 5:20 AM
To: macdonald at evenfall.com; Tim Ressel; Synth DIY
Subject: Re: Time for new uP



----- Original Message -----
From: Chris MacDonald <macdonald at evenfall.com>

> So I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has had trouble getting Atmel
> parts or did I just pick a bad time to start looking?
>
> -Chris MacDonald
>

No AVR are more or less sold out till next spring.
I ordered 100ps 90S2313 a while ago and got 5ps actually delivered.
There are still some dil parts out there, mostly at 2 time the normal price.
It seems you can forget about soic and tqfp completely :((

I've even considered to go for PIC,
however the PIC instructionset and (lack off) registers made me decide to
wait for better times.

The SX uC looks like a better alternative,
still the AVR is easier to work with (well just my opinion o'cause).

Cheers, Theo



From trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk  Thu Sep 21 19:08:18 2000
From: trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk (Trevor Page)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:08:18 +0100
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
References: <000f01c02280$1350e200$188c883e@trevspc><20000920001310U.cfmd@swipnet.se> <20000920205153F.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <001b01c023ee$8b201ca0$ca21883e@trevspc>

Hi all,

Thanks very much for the info offered on the Juno 106 oscillator problem. As
I said, I know little about this synth but I'll pass the information onto my
friend and see if it helps. Personally, I can't see why it is necessary to
replace a whole oscillator module, but there ya go.

Thanks again!

Trev




=========

Trevor Page BEng (Hons)
----- Original Message -----
From: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
To: <cfmd at swipnet.se>
Cc: <trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk>; <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Oscillator for Juno 106


> From: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
> Subject: Re: Oscillator for Juno 106
> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:13:10 +0200
>
> Bugger!!!
>
> > MC5534A, isn't that just Motorola's (now ON-Semiconductors) labeling of
our
> > beloved NE5534A?
> >
> > BTW, the 5534 is a dual op-amp...
>
> The 5534 is naturally the single op-amp where as 5533 is the dual version
and
> 5532 is the budget dual version. I saw the error the split picosecond
after
> hitting the send button...
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>




From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Thu Sep 21 19:44:34 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:44:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Time for new uP
In-Reply-To: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A8D@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009211323580.20653-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Tim Ressel wrote:

> Don't get me worng, PIC has its place. I have not used them (yet), but the
> thought of an 8 pin uP for those small projects is delightful.

  The 8-pin PIC is one of the Great Discoveries in embedded applications
as far as I'm concerned.  The process controller manufacturer I work for
has replaced the 555 ICs in things like PAF (phase-angle firing) boards
with 12C508s because I demonstrated that the timing pulses are ten times
as precise and repeatable, not to mention the timer can be configured to
do 90% of the stuff other now-obsolete circuits on the board did such as
cold-start firing angle restriction, soft-start timing, etc.  Now all
crammed into one PIC.

  Perhaps even more used at our shop is my 'PICdog', a watchdog reset
controller/arbitrator that has vastly improved the reliability of control
circuits (a Z8-based PID controller, for example) that are used out in the
field--literally, out in the middle of a field where a gas well or whatnot
is located and is subject to frequent lightning strikes, etc. PICdog is a
12C508.

  8-pin microcontrollers rule. ;)

Crow

/**/




From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 21 19:58:42 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:58:42 -0700
Subject: Another DIY oportunity
Message-ID: <39CA4C52.46955238@silcom.com>

    The place I work for has a DiazoJet (blue print machine) that it no
longer wants.  It is free to a good home, but unless you live within an
hours driver of Santa Barbara, CA (USA), you have to come and get it
yourself.  If you live close by, I will personally throw the thing in my
pickup and drive it to whereever you want it.
    As far as I know, it works (it did the last time we used it, about 3
years ago).  It is an E size machice, I do believe.

    -Jim





From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 22:17:58 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:17:58 GMT
Subject: [EFM] DIY Shopper
Message-ID: <F333ySsxVY60mJWEsBk00001360@hotmail.com>

Even Better: All electronics has the Power One HBB15-1.5-A
for only $12.95  (better price than Marlin P. Jones at $19.95)

Maybe I need one of each (I'll have to build one HONKIN big
synth, eh ???

H^) harry


>From: "tomg" <efm3 at mediaone.net>
>Reply-To: efm at xavax.com
>To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>CC: <efm at xavax.com>
>Subject: [EFM] DIY Shopper
>Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:21:21 -0700
>
>Here are a couple of deals you guys might be
>interested in...
>
>All Electronics http://alltronics.com
>
>+/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A Power One HDD15-5-A $24.95
>
>
>MCM Electronics http://www.i-mcm.com/welcome.jhtml
>
>TENMA DMM w/logic/cap/tranny /freq(20-20MHZ) 72-4025 $49.95
>TENMA dual trace 40MHz CRT scope 72-6020 $349.00 <- WOW!!
>
>
>Tom
>
>

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From music.maker at gte.net  Thu Sep 21 20:40:07 2000
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:40:07
Subject: Power One supply WAS: DIY Shopper
Message-ID: <200009220341.WAA28525409@smtppop2.gte.net>

I live less than 10 miles from All.  I'm there tomorrow.
Sorry, I forgot who posted the original tip, but thank you.

-- Scott Gravenhorst : On The Edge, but the Edge of What?
-- Linux Rex, Linux Vobiscum  |  RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: www.teklab.com/~chordman
-- NonFatMan: members.xoom.com/_XMCM/chordman/index.html
-- The 21st century does NOT start in the year 2000!!!





From music.maker at gte.net  Thu Sep 21 20:47:59 2000
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:47:59
Subject: DIY Shopper
Message-ID: <200009220352.WAA28281297@smtppop2.gte.net>

Here is a copy and paste from the web page where it is:

15VDC @ 5A, and ?12VDC @ 5A. Power One HDD15-5-A, unused in factory 
box with full documentation.   20E009 $24.95 each 

The fact that it's only +15 is no problem for me.  I can work
with ?12 V just fine.  Plus it would seem to have the extra
+15 supply as well.  
I'm there tomorrow...


-- Scott Gravenhorst : On The Edge, but the Edge of What?
-- Linux Rex, Linux Vobiscum  |  RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: www.teklab.com/~chordman
-- NonFatMan: members.xoom.com/_XMCM/chordman/index.html
-- The 21st century does NOT start in the year 2000!!!





From grichter at execpc.com  Fri Sep 22 00:11:06 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:11:06 -0500
Subject: OEM effects modules?
Message-ID: <200009212211.e8LMB6p07206@pop1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

I could swear a while back I looked at a page that had little effects 
modules you could embed in your own product. I'm thinking about a special
purpose synth that needs an effects unit. Aside from ripping apart guitar
pedals does anyone know of a source for these modules?

Or any really cheap echo/delay module which could be built in. I need around
10-20 of them.

Interestingly, I found an embedded ASCII to speech module for $145. Can hang
on a printer port, serial port or uP buss, kinda cool.

http://www.rcsys.com/v860x.htm



From t.hogers at home.nl  Fri Sep 22 00:21:14 2000
From: t.hogers at home.nl (Theo)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 00:21:14 +0200
Subject: [EFM] DIY Shopper
References: <001001c02423$b51ce940$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <014d01c0241a$413de960$0400a8c0@cc17547a>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: tomg <efm3 at mediaone.net>
> > 72-4025 $79.00 retail
> > http://www.tenma.com/031.html
> > 
Believe I have the same thing from Dynatec 
(same look, same specs, same price, different name).
Nice meter very complete and accurate, 
only a bit ssssllooowwww response.

Cheers Theo





From efm3 at mediaone.net  Fri Sep 22 00:21:21 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:21:21 -0700
Subject: DIY Shopper
Message-ID: <000e01c0241a$46ad8360$0200a8c0@pc102>

Here are a couple of deals you guys might be 
interested in...

All Electronics http://alltronics.com

+/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A Power One HDD15-5-A $24.95


MCM Electronics http://www.i-mcm.com/welcome.jhtml

TENMA DMM w/logic/cap/tranny /freq(20-20MHZ) 72-4025 $49.95
TENMA dual trace 40MHz CRT scope 72-6020 $349.00 <- WOW!!


Tom





From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 22 01:08:52 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:08:52 -0600
Subject: DIY Shopper
References: <000e01c0241a$46ad8360$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <001e01c02420$e9ff25e0$9b03153f@Studio1>


----- Original Message -----
From: "tomg" <efm3 at mediaone.net>
>
> All Electronics http://alltronics.com
>
> +/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A Power One HDD15-5-A $24.95
>


I read this differently. I believe it says +15 @ 5A and +/-12 @ 5A.

Confusing though, because they list the HBB15-1.5-A as +/-15V or +/-12V.

Just a heads up -- it might be a good idea to call and get the specs
straight before ordering.




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Fri Sep 22 01:26:58 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:26:58 -0700
Subject: [EFM] DIY Shopper
References: <000e01c0241a$46ad8360$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <000701c02423$759aabe0$0200a8c0@pc102>


Here are the specs.......

72-6020 $1159 retail
http://www.tenma.com/040.html
72-4025 $79.00 retail
http://www.tenma.com/031.html


I found the meter for $39.99 here...
http://www.firstcash.com/inv/805.6665.php3


Tom



> Here are a couple of deals you guys might be 
> interested in...
> 
> All Electronics http://alltronics.com
> 
> +/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A Power One HDD15-5-A $24.95
> 
> 
> MCM Electronics http://www.i-mcm.com/welcome.jhtml
> 
> TENMA DMM w/logic/cap/tranny /freq(20-20MHZ) 72-4025 $49.95
> TENMA dual trace 40MHz CRT scope 72-6020 $349.00 <- WOW!!
> 
> 
> Tom
> 
> 




From efm3 at mediaone.net  Fri Sep 22 01:28:49 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:28:49 -0700
Subject: [EFM] DIY Shopper
Message-ID: <001001c02423$b51ce940$0200a8c0@pc102>

> Here are the specs.......
> 
> 72-6020 $1159 retail

Sorry that should be $699...but still WOW!! 


> http://www.tenma.com/040.html
> 72-4025 $79.00 retail
> http://www.tenma.com/031.html
> 
> 
> I found the meter for $39.99 here...
> http://www.firstcash.com/inv/805.6665.php3
> 
> 
> Tom





From bnillson at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 22 02:46:43 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 00:46:43 GMT
Subject: OEM effects modules?
Message-ID: <F89n1KVHYS8YV2btIXw00001401@hotmail.com>

Well i have been ranting about the modules at:
http://www.cliffuk.co.uk/

Reg
BJ


>From: "Grant Richter" <grichter at execpc.com>
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: OEM effects modules?
>Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:11:06 -0500
>
>I could swear a while back I looked at a page that had little effects
>modules you could embed in your own product. I'm thinking about a special
>purpose synth that needs an effects unit. Aside from ripping apart guitar
>pedals does anyone know of a source for these modules?
>
>Or any really cheap echo/delay module which could be built in. I need 
>around
>10-20 of them.
>
>Interestingly, I found an embedded ASCII to speech module for $145. Can 
>hang
>on a printer port, serial port or uP buss, kinda cool.
>
>http://www.rcsys.com/v860x.htm

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.




From mclilith at ezwv.com  Fri Sep 22 04:13:43 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:13:43 -0400
Subject: Another DIY oportunity
In-Reply-To: <39CA4C52.46955238@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000921220912.00935600@mail.ezwv.com>

At 01:58 PM 09/21/2000 , you wrote:

>It is free to a good home, but unless you live within an
>hours driver of Santa Barbara, CA (USA), you have to come and get it
>yourself.

Ok, I'm finally going to ask something that I've wondered about several
times in the past:

Why on earth would it matter where the recipient of the gear lives, as long
as they are willing to pay for any shipping charges, no matter how large
those charges might be?

I've seen offers like this on eBay and many other places. I never quite
understood the reasoning behind them. I realize that the item in question
is usually heavy and expensive to ship, but why would that matter to the
shipper, if they were getting paid enough to cover it?


Curious,

Glen Berry



From jlarryh at iquest.net  Fri Sep 22 04:15:05 2000
From: jlarryh at iquest.net (J. Larry Hendry)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:15:05 -0500
Subject: Power One supply WAS: DIY Shopper
References: <000e01c0241a$46ad8360$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <004e01c0243a$ee77b6e0$8b352bd1@oemcomputer>

Tomg wrote:
All Electronics http://alltronics.com
+/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A Power One HDD15-5-A $24.95
----
OK, maybe I am stupid, but I cannot get to this thing.  Looking on their
power supply page, I find the HBB-15-1.5 supply for $12.50, but not this
HDD-15-5 supply.  When I use the search tool, it indicates a match of one
document but displays nothing.  I am using IE5.  Anyone else having any
luck?  I like the HBB1.5 and have a couple for my synth.  However, I was
looking for something to power a big honkin' Carvin board I just received
without the rack mount power supply.  I have no idea what the +/- 15 VDC
current requirement is, but I figure 5 amp each should be plenty.  Now, I
also need to find a reasonable 48 VDC supply for the phantom power.  The
only good ones I have run across are for higher currents and cost too much
money.

Larry Hendry











From efm3 at mediaone.net  Fri Sep 22 05:00:58 2000
From: efm3 at mediaone.net (tomg)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:00:58 -0700
Subject: DIY Shopper
References: <000e01c0241a$46ad8360$0200a8c0@pc102> <001e01c02420$e9ff25e0$9b03153f@Studio1>
Message-ID: <000701c02441$58eee7e0$0200a8c0@pc102>

I got it out of Nuts&Volts V22 #9 P57 AllEle#20E009 it says
+/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A ?? Guess you better ask if you
order one.

Tom


> > All Electronics http://alltronics.com
> >
> > +/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A Power One HDD15-5-A $24.95
> >
> 
> 
> I read this differently. I believe it says +15 @ 5A and +/-12 @ 5A.
> 
> Confusing though, because they list the HBB15-1.5-A as +/-15V or +/-12V.
> 
> Just a heads up -- it might be a good idea to call and get the specs
> straight before ordering.
> 




From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 22 05:14:56 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:14:56 -0600
Subject: Power One supply WAS: DIY Shopper
References: <000e01c0241a$46ad8360$0200a8c0@pc102> <004e01c0243a$ee77b6e0$8b352bd1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <002201c02443$49958b80$2dab183f@Studio1>

Larry--

It's under the "what's new" section.

  Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh at iquest.net>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 8:15 PM
Subject: Power One supply WAS: DIY Shopper


> Tomg wrote:
> All Electronics http://alltronics.com
> +/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A Power One HDD15-5-A $24.95
> ----
> OK, maybe I am stupid, but I cannot get to this thing.  Looking on their
> power supply page, I find the HBB-15-1.5 supply for $12.50, but not this
> HDD-15-5 supply.  When I use the search tool, it indicates a match of one
> document but displays nothing.  I am using IE5.  Anyone else having any
> luck?  I like the HBB1.5 and have a couple for my synth.  However, I was
> looking for something to power a big honkin' Carvin board I just received
> without the rack mount power supply.  I have no idea what the +/- 15 VDC
> current requirement is, but I figure 5 amp each should be plenty.  Now, I
> also need to find a reasonable 48 VDC supply for the phantom power.  The
> only good ones I have run across are for higher currents and cost too much
> money.
>
> Larry Hendry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 22 05:17:05 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:17:05 -0600
Subject: DIY Shopper
References: <000e01c0241a$46ad8360$0200a8c0@pc102> <001e01c02420$e9ff25e0$9b03153f@Studio1> <000701c02441$58eee7e0$0200a8c0@pc102>
Message-ID: <002a01c02443$96695c70$2dab183f@Studio1>

That would seem to make more sense. The web-page description is probably
wrong.

  Ian


----- Original Message -----
From: "tomg" <efm3 at mediaone.net>

> I got it out of Nuts&Volts V22 #9 P57 AllEle#20E009 it says
> +/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A ?? Guess you better ask if you
> order one.





From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Fri Sep 22 05:50:37 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:50:37 -0400
Subject: DIY Shopper
References: <000e01c0241a$46ad8360$0200a8c0@pc102> <001e01c02420$e9ff25e0$9b03153f@Studio1>
Message-ID: <39CAD70C.BA695733@prodigy.net>

I looked it up... Its a dual output + / - 15V @ 5A

Battleship... 14" long @ 10lbs !!!

Individual modules WILL need separate fuses, eh ???

H^)  harry

Ian Fritz wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tomg" <efm3 at mediaone.net>
> >
> > All Electronics http://alltronics.com
> >
> > +/- 15V or +/- 12V  @ 5A Power One HDD15-5-A $24.95
> >
>
> I read this differently. I believe it says +15 @ 5A and +/-12 @ 5A.
>
> Confusing though, because they list the HBB15-1.5-A as +/-15V or +/-12V.
>
> Just a heads up -- it might be a good idea to call and get the specs
> straight before ordering.




From sbernardi at home.net  Fri Sep 22 06:26:25 2000
From: sbernardi at home.net (sbernardi at home.net)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:26:25 PDT
Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#445671026: Lot (2) New Power Supplies 5V, +15V, -15V
Message-ID: <20000922042625.76E96D8F@pobblebonk.ebay.com>

You guys have been talking about power supplies; here's two +5v at 6A and +/- 15v at 2A on an ebay auction. I already bought a couple

Title of item:	Lot (2) New Power Supplies 5V, +15V, -15V
Seller:	irobot98
Starts:	Sep-21-00 18:02:26 PDT
Ends:	Sep-28-00 18:02:26 PDT
Price:	Starts at $8.95
To bid on the item, go to:	http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=445671026


Item Description:		
	



5V_PS_2




Lot (2) New Power Supplies 5V, +15V, -15V
Model : Power General 3055-2
V1 + 5VDC @ 6 Amps
V2 +15VDC @ 1 Amp
V3 -15VDC @ 1 Amp
Brand new triple voltage power supplies, input voltage either 110VAC or 220VAC. High quality units originally slated for medical equipment. I have seen these in surplus catalogs for over $20, original cost probably &gt; $50 each.
&nbsp;Auction Terms :
1) USA and Canada Only.
2) Buyer pays $3.20 shipping via priority mail in lower 48.
3) USA - Payment by check, money order or PayPal (See Below). Item ships as soon as funds clear. 
4) Canadian - actual US Postal air or ground shipping cost. Payment only by postal money order or PayPal.
5) I will be happy to reduce shipping costs whenever possible by combining multiple winning auctions.
6) I will email winner within 24 Hrs, winner should acknowledge by email with name &amp; address within the next 24 Hrs.
7) I must receive payment within 14 calendar days of auction end.
8) I will post positive feedback as soon as I receive payment within 14 days.
If you do not agree with the above terms, Do Not Bid on this auction!

I also accept credit card payments with PayPal - its FAST, FREE and SECURE! For a limited time only, you'll get $5 for signing up and activating your account. 





	Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com



From don at till.com  Fri Sep 22 07:57:14 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:57:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
In-Reply-To: 	<2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA0288166C@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
	(message from Haible Juergen on Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:39:55 +0200)
Message-ID: <200009220557.WAA08486@shell9.ba.best.com>

   From: Haible Juergen <Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de>
   Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:39:55 +0200

   Is the Chroma circuit on the web somewhere ?

Give me a second...

It is now.  

This is the "dual channel" card; two synth channels that are designed
to be used as a pair with interesting coupling connections between
them (oscillator sync, ring modulation, filters in series, etc).  The
Chroma has eight of these cards.

  http://www.till.com/articles/arp/images/chroma-dual-channel-1.gif
  http://www.till.com/articles/arp/images/chroma-dual-channel-2.gif

(Several scans pasted together in Photoshop, tweaked the grayscale
curves to make it pretty, gif format, four levels of gray.)

Cool things to note:
  The waveform mux chooses white noise, pink noise, a pwm square wave
  with dc restoration, a phase shifted sawtooth mixed with the original
  sawtooth.

  The VCO uses a charge pump (!!!) to discharge the cap without any
  high frequency linearity issues.

  The control voltages can be set immediately or through an RC
  filter to eliminate most zipper noise.

Also, check out the web's best Chroma site:
  http://www.redrooffs.com/chroma/

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From J.Proveniers at orga.nl  Fri Sep 22 08:21:16 2000
From: J.Proveniers at orga.nl (Jeroen Proveniers)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:21:16 +0200
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
Message-ID: <B17963D44143D311AE320008C7E1CD3E018CEB@EXCHANGE_OBV>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trevor Page [mailto:trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 7:08 PM
> To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: Re: Oscillator for Juno 106
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks very much for the info offered on the Juno 106 
> oscillator problem. As
> I said, I know little about this synth but I'll pass the 
> information onto my
> friend and see if it helps. Personally, I can't see why it is 
> necessary to
> replace a whole oscillator module, but there ya go.

The module is potted in some epoxy. It is just impossible to replace a
component of little hybrid.

JJ



From tswetonic at real.com  Fri Sep 22 08:40:20 2000
From: tswetonic at real.com (Tim Swetonic)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:40:20 -0700
Subject: need to buy a soldering iron
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000921233856.009d51c0@mail.real.com>

Hi,

I should be doing my first electronics project soon, and then I hope to 
build a FatMan synth. My first project is a compressor kit that I bought 
from PAiA. So, can anyone recommend a soldering iron?

Thanks,

Tim



From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Fri Sep 22 08:44:06 2000
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 02:44:06 EDT
Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#445671026: Lot (2) New Power Supplies 5V, +15V, -15V
Message-ID: <6b.a0025c3.26fc59b6@aol.com>


In a message dated 9/21/00 9:29:39 PM, sbernardi at home.net writes:

<< You guys have been talking about power supplies; here's two +5v at 6A and 
+/- 15v at 2A on an ebay auction. I already bought a couple

Title of item:  Lot (2) New Power Supplies 5V, +15V, -15V
Seller: irobot98
Starts: Sep-21-00 18:02:26 PDT
Ends:   Sep-28-00 18:02:26 PDT
Price:  Starts at $8.95
To bid on the item, go to:  
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=445671026 >>

Hey Scott,

Unfortunately, those supplies are switching supplies, not linear, so they're 
not really well-suited for most synth DIY work.  BTW, that Ebay seller has 
been offering those same supplies for several months running for the same 
price, usually getting no bids.

I would wholeheartedly recommend those Power-One supplies from All 
Electronics.  That's a great supply at a great price.

Michael Bacich



From blacet at monitor.net  Fri Sep 22 09:21:38 2000
From: blacet at monitor.net (John E Blacet)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:21:38 +0000
Subject: need to buy a soldering iron
References: <4.2.0.58.20000921233856.009d51c0@mail.real.com>
Message-ID: <39CB0883.2C5D@monitor.net>

A very nice budget model (that has survived massive production volume)
is the Weller WLC100. Variable PW heat control. About $37. Get the ST1
tips.

A higher end model with heat sensing is the WES50; about $109.

Electronix Express in NJ is one place that has good prices. 800-972-2225
-- 

Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html





From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Fri Sep 22 09:46:21 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:46:21 +1000
Subject: Another DIY oportunity
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000922074621.009b20b8@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 10:13 PM 21/09/00 -0400, Glen <mclilith wrote:

>I've seen offers like this on eBay and many other places. I never quite
>understood the reasoning behind them. I realize that the item in question
>is usually heavy and expensive to ship, but why would that matter to the
>shipper, if they were getting paid enough to cover it?

It is a complete bitch to pack heavy awkward and part-disassembled stuff.
And, the recipient naturally wants to know what freight will cost.
It is pretty hard to know, until it is packed.
When they find out, they often (unsuprisingly) bail out.
So I can certainly understand this.

Another thing that I can understand (though I think these people are stupid)
is the number of people who are happy (nay, rabidly keen) to take stuff 
for FREE, but would be offended if you asked then to give you $10 for it.
Christ, if it's big and worth carrying away, it's worth $10 surely?????
As I say, I can understand it, because I understand people can be stupid.

paul perry (who has given stuff away for free)




From ka4hjh at gte.net  Fri Sep 22 10:01:09 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 04:01:09 -0400
Subject: Another DIY oportunity
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000922074621.009b20b8@popa.melbpc.org.au>
References: <1.5.4.32.20000922074621.009b20b8@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <p04330104b5f0c11388c9@[63.23.233.59]>

>Another thing that I can understand (though I think these people are stupid)
>is the number of people who are happy (nay, rabidly keen) to take stuff
>for FREE, but would be offended if you asked then to give you $10 for it.
>Christ, if it's big and worth carrying away, it's worth $10 surely?????
>As I say, I can understand it, because I understand people can be stupid.
>
>paul perry (who has given stuff away for free)

A great way to get big, heavy stuff for free is to pull a hand truck 
around at a hamfest. I've had people YELL at me to get me to haul it 
away! I've also exhausted myself pulling it all back to the truck.

Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor (who has a house FULL of junk)"



From patchell at silcom.com  Fri Sep 22 15:56:24 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:56:24 -0700
Subject: Another DIY oportunity
References: <1.5.4.32.20000922074621.009b20b8@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <39CB6508.5B34CA49@silcom.com>



Paul Perry wrote:

> At 10:13 PM 21/09/00 -0400, Glen <mclilith wrote:
>
> >I've seen offers like this on eBay and many other places. I never quite
> >understood the reasoning behind them. I realize that the item in question
> >is usually heavy and expensive to ship, but why would that matter to the
> >shipper, if they were getting paid enough to cover it?
>
> It is a complete bitch to pack heavy awkward and part-disassembled stuff.
> And, the recipient naturally wants to know what freight will cost.
> It is pretty hard to know, until it is packed.
> When they find out, they often (unsuprisingly) bail out.
> So I can certainly understand this.
>
> Another thing that I can understand (though I think these people are stupid)
> is the number of people who are happy (nay, rabidly keen) to take stuff
> for FREE, but would be offended if you asked then to give you $10 for it.
> Christ, if it's big and worth carrying away, it's worth $10 surely?????
> As I say, I can understand it, because I understand people can be stupid.
>
> paul perry (who has given stuff away for free)

    Several years ago, I offered a Deap Freeze "FREE" to any one who whould cart
it away (it was in working order, but almost 40 years old, so it had minor
problems, like the gasket had rotted).  The first guy that showed up did nothing
but complain about the way it looked (as if he was trying to get the price even
lower).  I kept reminding him, "Hey, it's free!"  So, sometimes, even giving
something away for free, the recipient will look a gift horse in the mouth.

    The stuff I generally give away for free has no value to me, is still usable
(I hope), and why fill up the land fill.

    -Jim





From patchell at silcom.com  Fri Sep 22 16:02:01 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:02:01 -0700
Subject: Another DIY oportunity
References: <1.5.4.32.20000922074621.009b20b8@popa.melbpc.org.au> <p04330104b5f0c11388c9@[63.23.233.59]>
Message-ID: <39CB6659.212164F7@silcom.com>



KA4HJH wrote:

> >Another thing that I can understand (though I think these people are stupid)
> >is the number of people who are happy (nay, rabidly keen) to take stuff
> >for FREE, but would be offended if you asked then to give you $10 for it.
> >Christ, if it's big and worth carrying away, it's worth $10 surely?????
> >As I say, I can understand it, because I understand people can be stupid.
> >
> >paul perry (who has given stuff away for free)
>
> A great way to get big, heavy stuff for free is to pull a hand truck
> around at a hamfest. I've had people YELL at me to get me to haul it
> away! I've also exhausted myself pulling it all back to the truck.
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor (who has a house FULL of junk)"

    Junk collectors should be revered, worshipped maybe :-).  I have saved people
on several ocasions, because I just happened to have a "gizzmo" you just can't
get anymore, and some of my other junk collector freinds have had things in their
collections that have saved me.

    -Jim





From colin.fraser at calanais.com  Fri Sep 22 17:16:07 2000
From: colin.fraser at calanais.com (Fraser, Colin J)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:16:07 +0100
Subject: Time for new uP
Message-ID: <CA369439A6D0314A919139DA6851A312AC0B@CATSPG2K01.scottishpower.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Old Crow [mailto:oldcrow at oldcrows.net]
> Sent: 21 September 2000 18:45
> To: Tim Ressel
> Cc: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: RE: Time for new uP
> 
>   The 8-pin PIC is one of the Great Discoveries in embedded 
> applications
> as far as I'm concerned.  

The '508 is the only PIC I find useful.
When you go to a large device, I find the AVRs usually more suitable.

If only Atmel would do an 8 pin AVR with hardware UART and flash ROM.
That would rock...
Midi to cv could be done with an 8 pin opto-isolator, 8 pin AVR and and 8
pin 12-bit serial DAC.

The 12c508 must be one of the best selling microcontrollers by now. There
must be hundreds of thousands (if not millions) in chipped Playstations
alone.
Must have been some hardcore geek that wrote that bit of code ;-)

Colin f



From colin.fraser at calanais.com  Fri Sep 22 17:20:47 2000
From: colin.fraser at calanais.com (Fraser, Colin J)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:20:47 +0100
Subject: OEM effects modules?
Message-ID: <CA369439A6D0314A919139DA6851A312AC0C@CATSPG2K01.scottishpower.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bjorn Julin [mailto:bnillson at hotmail.com]
> Sent: 22 September 2000 01:47
> To: grichter at execpc.com; synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: Re: OEM effects modules?
> 
> 
> Well i have been ranting about the modules at:
> http://www.cliffuk.co.uk/
> 

What DSP are these based on ?
Is there any way to reprogram them ourselves ?
I see custom programs have minimum order quantities...

Colin f





From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Fri Sep 22 18:31:07 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:31:07 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>It is now. 

Thank you ! 

	>  The VCO uses a charge pump (!!!) to discharge the cap without any
	>  high frequency linearity issues.

Yes, charge pump. The CS-80 does this as well.
I wonder how they fill the rather large gap of the saw reset time when
a triangle is created. 

For those who are not familiar with that kind of VCO:
Normally the scale error that is caused by the reset time of the saw wave
must be compensated in the expo converter, and there ar a lot of
stategies to keep that time small. The Chroma and CS-80 VCOs
don't go for an ultra fast reset time, but the VCO concept includes a 
perfect compensation. At least that's who I understand it.
I've seen a discrete design of this from R.A.Pease, and I think National
still have such a chip as well.

I wonder if ARP's HFT compensation in the Odyssey is a predecessor
of this as well. There's a certain amount of charge used for compensation
rather than a continuous current as well. (If memory serves. Was some time
since I last looked at Odyssey schemos.)

JH.




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Fri Sep 22 18:33:42 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:33:42 -0700
Subject: Power Supplies
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A98@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

I work about 2 miles from POWER ONE, in Camarillo, CA.  They are a customer
of ours, in fact.
I also am about a block from Harbor Freight. 
But so far I am happy with the supply I got from John Blacet.
Rory McDonald



From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Fri Sep 22 19:53:43 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:53:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
In-Reply-To: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009221351380.23536-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Haible Juergen wrote:

> Yes, charge pump. The CS-80 does this as well.
> I wonder how they fill the rather large gap of the saw reset time when
> a triangle is created. 

  What role is the RC4151 (V/F converter, if I remember correctly) playing
here?  I've used those in motor speed controls since the early 80s, but
this is the first time I've seen it used in a musical VCO.

Crow

/**/




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Fri Sep 22 20:10:03 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:10:03 -0700
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A9D@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

Jergen:Do you know if this is true as well for the CS-50/60?
Just curious...
Rory McDonald

-----Original Message-----
From: Haible Juergen [mailto:Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de]
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 9:31 AM
To: Don Tillman
Cc: DIY
Subject: RE: The Magnus phase shifter


	>It is now. 

Thank you ! 

	>  The VCO uses a charge pump (!!!) to discharge the cap without any
	>  high frequency linearity issues.

Yes, charge pump. The CS-80 does this as well.
I wonder how they fill the rather large gap of the saw reset time when
a triangle is created. 

For those who are not familiar with that kind of VCO:
Normally the scale error that is caused by the reset time of the saw wave
must be compensated in the expo converter, and there ar a lot of
stategies to keep that time small. The Chroma and CS-80 VCOs
don't go for an ultra fast reset time, but the VCO concept includes a 
perfect compensation. At least that's who I understand it.
I've seen a discrete design of this from R.A.Pease, and I think National
still have such a chip as well.

I wonder if ARP's HFT compensation in the Odyssey is a predecessor
of this as well. There's a certain amount of charge used for compensation
rather than a continuous current as well. (If memory serves. Was some time
since I last looked at Odyssey schemos.)

JH.



From urekar.m at EUnet.yu  Fri Sep 22 20:14:00 2000
From: urekar.m at EUnet.yu (>>>marjan<<<)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:14:00 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <39CBA168.61A8BF1E@eunet.yu>

Our japanese friend K.T. has nice page with his DIY Chroma VCOs
(with lotsa of nice waveform pics).
Maybe some list member from jp could translate it, as there
may be some more explanations.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~WZ4K-TNK/diy/arpvco.html


marjan



From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 22 21:15:38 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:15:38 -0600
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <001f01c024c9$7ef00720$2c5e143f@Studio1>

There is a nice discussion of this kind of V/F converter in W. Jung's "IC
Op-Amp Cookbook", including derivation of the design equations and a couple
of examples using the RC4151 / LM331. (Note that pins 3 & 5 are reversed in
Fig. 10-28.) I calculate that the Chroma reset time is 33us. Very accurate
frequency tracking appears possible, but I, too, wonder how to handle the
waveshaping issue with such a long reset time.

  Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Haible Juergen" <Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de>
>
> Yes, charge pump. The CS-80 does this as well.
> I wonder how they fill the rather large gap of the saw reset time when
> a triangle is created.
>
> For those who are not familiar with that kind of VCO:
> Normally the scale error that is caused by the reset time of the saw wave
> must be compensated in the expo converter, and there ar a lot of
> stategies to keep that time small. The Chroma and CS-80 VCOs
> don't go for an ultra fast reset time, but the VCO concept includes a
> perfect compensation. At least that's who I understand it.
> I've seen a discrete design of this from R.A.Pease, and I think National
> still have such a chip as well.
>
> I wonder if ARP's HFT compensation in the Odyssey is a predecessor
> of this as well. There's a certain amount of charge used for compensation
> rather than a continuous current as well. (If memory serves. Was some time
> since I last looked at Odyssey schemos.)
>
> JH.
>
>




From jhaible at t-online.de  Fri Sep 22 21:31:13 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:31:13 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5A9D@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>
Message-ID: <000801c0253c$de27f540$1b2b9fc1@debitel.net>


> Jergen:Do you know if this is true as well for the CS-50/60?
> Just curious...
> Rory McDonald

Sure, they are all using the same voice cards. Actually, I have a
CS-50 (and not a CS-80).

JH.





From jhaible at t-online.de  Fri Sep 22 21:33:12 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:33:12 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de> <39CBA168.61A8BF1E@eunet.yu>
Message-ID: <000901c0253c$dee096e0$1b2b9fc1@debitel.net>


> Our japanese friend K.T. has nice page with his DIY Chroma VCOs
> (with lotsa of nice waveform pics).
> Maybe some list member from jp could translate it, as there
> may be some more explanations.
> http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~WZ4K-TNK/diy/arpvco.html

Yes ! That's where I've seen it first. Looked so familiar.
BTW, you can download the data sheet from www.exar.com .

JH.





From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 22 21:35:23 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:35:23 -0600
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de> <39CBA168.61A8BF1E@eunet.yu>
Message-ID: <002b01c024cc$41a49f90$2c5e143f@Studio1>

Ah ... no triangle, just (pseudo) saw and pulse.

  Ian


----- Original Message ----- 
From: ">>>marjan<<<" <urekar.m at EUnet.yu>
To: "Haible Juergen" <Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de>
Cc: "Don Tillman" <don at till.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: The Magnus phase shifter


> Our japanese friend K.T. has nice page with his DIY Chroma VCOs
> (with lotsa of nice waveform pics).
> Maybe some list member from jp could translate it, as there
> may be some more explanations.
> http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~WZ4K-TNK/diy/arpvco.html
> 
> 
> marjan
> 




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Fri Sep 22 22:50:05 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:50:05 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
In-Reply-To: <200009210816.BAA02157@shell9.ba.best.com>
References: <F158O6AxFWHhpGe5jSc0000e35d@hotmail.com>
	<200009210816.BAA02157@shell9.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <20000922225005O.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Don Tillman <don at till.com>
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 01:16:05 -0700 (PDT)

Hi!

>    Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:31:00 +0200
>    From: Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se>
> 
>    http://home.swipnet.se/cfmd/synths/schematics/
> 
> Wow, that's a very nice idea.  I like it. 

Oh, thanks!! Much apprechiated!

> A couple features I noticed: First, it can do thru-zero frequency PM.
> By that I mean if you shift the phase backwards quickly you can
> briefly take the frequency negative.

Certainly.

> Secondly, you can put a number of these in series to do more than
> 360-degrees of phase shift.

Oh yes, I have considered that. It's ultra-easy to do, and fairly cheap.

> (Ummm, I'm thinking a couple errors crept into the schematic.  Perhaps
> the comparator's input are swapped and the resistor values aren't
> quite right.  Also, since the circuit is really dependant on the power
> supply voltage it would be a good idea to specify that.  You want the
> comparator output transition to exactly compensate for the sawtooth
> reset, right?)

First note that the comparator's input order will set the polarity of the
comparator signal, second, note that the polarity you would like to have
depends on how you mix the sawtooth and the PWM pulse. If you switch from (+)
to (-) input on the pulse you also need to interchange the comparator inputs
in order to maintain the same function.

> This circuit is almost the same as the Chroma sawtooth mix.  
> 
> Quick description: The Chroma has a comparator, positive input
> grounded, negative input has an equal mix of sawtooth and the PWM
> control voltage, and the result is a resistor mix of the comparator
> output, the PWM control voltage and the sawtooth.  

I haven't seen the Chroma sawtooth mix.

> But the Chroma mixes in twice as much sawtooth because the goal isn't
> a phase shifter but a mix of the original sawtooth and the
> phase-shifted sawtooth for a thicker sound.

Ah.

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Fri Sep 22 22:54:10 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:54:10 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
In-Reply-To: <F239nyeKzGZuNY1SWoB00000aa3@hotmail.com>
References: <F239nyeKzGZuNY1SWoB00000aa3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000922225410S.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: The Magnus phase shifter
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:25:55 GMT

Hi!

> >This circuit is almost the same as the Chroma sawtooth mix.
> 
> >Quick description: The Chroma has a comparator, positive input
> >grounded, negative input has an equal mix of sawtooth and the PWM
> >control voltage, and the result is a resistor mix of the comparator
> >output, the PWM control voltage and the sawtooth.
> 
> The Chroma uses offset voltages on the + input and
> to the summing mixer.
> 
> >But the Chroma mixes in twice as much sawtooth because the goal isn't
> >a phase shifter but a mix of the original sawtooth and the
> >phase-shifted sawtooth for a thicker sound.
> 
> Actually when i run Magnus shifter and the Chroma the end
> result is the same. Functionally I dont se any difference
> between them. The design difference is that Magnus is a
> +- 5 volt and the Chroma is a 0 to +5 volt.
> And Magnus use a different aproach to DC rejection then
> the Chroma does , Both cirquits are capable to do PM.

Humm... which method does the Chroma use?

BTW, is there Chroma schematic around somewhere that I could look on?

> The ViBrAtO effect!!!

Oooohhhhh ;)

Cheers,
Magnus




From epeasant at telusplanet.net  Sat Sep 23 00:15:23 2000
From: epeasant at telusplanet.net (The Peasant)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:15:23 -0600
Subject: Another DIY oportunity
In-Reply-To: <39CB6659.212164F7@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBIDADCDLLBEKBCCAOKEKHCBAA.epeasant@telusplanet.net>

Hello, all,

> > Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> > "The Mac Doctor (who has a house FULL of junk)"

My junk has always grown to fill available space, bigger house, more junk!
Works well to get unwanted wives from the house, as well!!

>     Junk collectors should be revered, worshipped maybe :-).

All bow down to the great Electronic Peasant junk collector!!!! ;-) ROFL!

OK, anybody that shows up at my place (Or sends a truck) is welcome to haul
away ALL of the cabinetry and rack mount stuff on my website for free! As
well as a lot of other junk if you want. Sorry, the wife is already gone!
;-)

______________________
The Electronic Peasant

www.electronicpeasant.com




From farky at ix.netcom.com  Sat Sep 23 03:10:13 2000
From: farky at ix.netcom.com (farky)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 18:10:13 -0700
Subject: OT: employment
Message-ID: <200009230106.VAA00199@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Hey folks:

Why is it so hard to get entry or nearly-entry level work as a tech?  I'm 
in the Seattle area, and it seems kind of weird that hardly any jobs are 
listed anyplace.  I've got a little experience and a 2-yr degree, but I 
never get responses to my resumes.  Anybody have any anecdotes about the 
business they could share?

muchos gracias
toby






From agrier at poofygoof.com  Sat Sep 23 03:54:12 2000
From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:54:12 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
In-Reply-To: <39C9A9F1.2EBC665E@evenfall.com>
References: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1A82@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com> <39C9A9F1.2EBC665E@evenfall.com>
Message-ID: <20000922185412.V20210@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>

On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 11:25:53PM -0700, Chris MacDonald wrote:
> I have also been looking into the AT90 series AVRs.  I had a good
> experience with the PIC16F84 in the Mini Modular, but the Atmel chips
> seem to have a better performance-and-features-to-price ratio.

I was wondering when the AVR would be mentioned here.  :)

> One attractive feature of the AT90 for me is that it has an instruction
> to read data from program memory into a register, something the PIC
> instruction set can't do.

Not to mention the AVR design lends itself to being programmed in C,
which at least to me is a rather nice feature.

> Digikey is currently saying about the AT90S4433, "Due to extended
> lead-time we are unable to backorder, no delivery date available." 

Digi-Key told me February of 2001 for the development kit.

-- 
  Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com
    "[N]ow would be a great time for record companies to start releasing
       everything on vinyl."  --  David Wolf, regarding mp3 pirating



From agrier at poofygoof.com  Sat Sep 23 04:03:52 2000
From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:03:52 -0700
Subject: Time for new uP
In-Reply-To: <F38185D061EBD21185F10008C7F926CE028E20AB@nj7460exch007u.ho.lucent.com>
References: <F38185D061EBD21185F10008C7F926CE028E20AB@nj7460exch007u.ho.lucent.com>
Message-ID: <20000922190352.W20210@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>

On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 09:37:47AM -0400, Curtin, Steven D (Steven) wrote:
> What have people been using for a development system?  I got the
> starter kit, which generously included a download cable and app, but
> the cheapest C compiler for it seems to be the Codecraft, for another
> $90US.  One thing going for the 68HC11 was the in-ROM Forth from New
> Micros, complete with an interactive assembler.  Once I get the
> Codecraft I'll just compile pForth (www.softsynth.com) and be off and
> running.

http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/ or http://gcc.gnu.org/ for the C compiler
http://sources.redhat.com/binutils/ for the assembler

all free under the GPL.

-- 
  Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com
    "[N]ow would be a great time for record companies to start releasing
       everything on vinyl."  --  David Wolf, regarding mp3 pirating



From nerdware at laidbak.com  Sat Sep 23 04:16:43 2000
From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:16:43 -0500
Subject: need to buy a soldering iron
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000921233856.009d51c0@mail.real.com>
Message-ID: <200009230218.e8N2Idu22006@grover.winsite.com>

If anyone is interested, the surplus shop where I "work" part-time 
has a small quantity of used Metcal SP-200 soldering stations. We 
have the power supplies and handpieces, but no tips. You can get 
them from any OK Tool distributor.

If you're not familiar with them, they are a high-end pro soldering 
station. Excellent unit, uses induction heating. Heat is almost 
instantaneous, tip senses how much to pump out, is static-safe, 
and the tips come in a staggering array of sizes and shapes. 

If you're interested, email me off-list and I can let you know what 
we have.

Thanks.


> Hi,
> 
> I should be doing my first electronics project soon, and then I hope to
> build a FatMan synth. My first project is a compressor kit that I bought
> from PAiA. So, can anyone recommend a soldering iron?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tim
> 






Paul Braun WD9GCO
Cygnus Productions
nerdware_nospam at laidbak.com

"A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head."



From CHoaglin at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 07:12:41 2000
From: CHoaglin at aol.com (CHoaglin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 01:12:41 EDT
Subject: employment
Message-ID: <d.a422b7d.26fd95c9@aol.com>


In a message dated 9/23/00 3:40:58 AM, cyborg_0 at iquest.net writes:

<< 

So, such is the market world. My advice: Get your piece of the pie anyway

you can, be willing to *elaborate* a bit (just be sure to know your limits),

and do anything you can to get a piece of the pie. The work enviroment IMHO

is extremely hostile. If you treat it like life or death, you will generally

do alright, because it *is* life and death, but on a very subtle scale. >>


I have a different strategy...which is basically screw getting an engineering 
position and being a tech. I'm working on my BSEE right now, attending 
Northeastern University full time and living there in a dorm, in case I ever 
change my mind in the future, but I plan to do what I've been doing as long 
as the money keeps rolling in, which is selling used electronic gear of all 
kinds on Ebay and elsewhere. Getting a degree, to me, is just more knowledge 
I can apply when screwing around with junk I find and building stuff for 
myself....I can't see myself working 9-5 anytime soon, and there's really no 
monetary incentive for me to do so...I made almost as much money going 
through dumpsters in the past year as those tech jobs you mentioned pay, and 
that was doing it part time while I was doing my senior year of high school. 
It's been really good, as it's great exercise, quite lucrative, and provides 
me with an endless supply of new junk to play with. I know a guy who does 
something similar on a larger scale, and he's making a good $200K or so, I'd 
say (I don't know exactly, but he did pay off a $90,000 house in 6 months)


Chris



From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sat Sep 23 07:41:11 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:41:11 -0700
Subject: employment
References: <200009230106.VAA00199@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <000701c02520$e210b1e0$fc372bd1@rob>

Well, it has seemed to me that, with some 2 yr ET colleges going corporate
they have diluted the education of a 2 yr ET degree, and some of the ppl who
I have seen graduating some of the more corporate ET programs shouldn't
have. The same thing has happened here in Indianapolis. When I started my
ET, there were tons of ET jobs.. But, after working in the field about 3
years I have gone back for my BSEE because I *know* if I ever lose my job or
am laid off for whatever reason that I will be lucky to get an 8 bux / hr
job with this completely lousy and now extremely undervalued ASET.

Mind you, every subsequent job I have had since I started work with an ASET
has had lower and lower wages. First job was about 38k, second job, 36k,
next job, 35k... The market is wierd right now.

Its tough to be a tech.

I looked for tech jobs in Seattle and was shocked to see not even ONE tech
job in the few weeks I was there!! Thats really when I decided I *needed* a
BSEE.

Well, FWIW, I know a guy who lied and said he had a BSEE, but he was a good
enough tech that when they asked him the *money* questions during the
interview he answered with authority so they never even bothered to check
his references.  ; ) He is now a program manager and no one except me and a
select few know about it.

Honestly, too, after the fact the higher ups will not want to admit they
were duped and will prolly not attempt to follow-up on the guy. As long as
you can do the job, I really think mosts execs do not care enough about it
to go through the trouble.

But, getting your foot in the door these days *requires* at least a BSEE,
and its starting to look like an MSEE is starting to take the place of the
BSEE. Of course, what kills me is when I see a guy with an economics degree
or something bumped up to Engineer or Program Manager while the rest of us
techs and engineers plug away day after day waiting for a position like that
to come open only to interview and be trounced by someone who didn't have to
go through the weed out courses like Diff Eq, Thermodynamics, RF circuit
analysis, etc. I guess drinking beer and playing golf with the right ppl has
a lot to do with it too. Seems that the workplace gets more and more
corrupted like that too unfortunately. They *want* a BSEE, but will *accept*
their buddy who doesn't know much about circuits period, but needs money to
buy a new house. ugh!

So, such is the market world. My advice: Get your piece of the pie anyway
you can, be willing to *elaborate* a bit (just be sure to know your limits),
and do anything you can to get a piece of the pie. The work enviroment IMHO
is extremely hostile. If you treat it like life or death, you will generally
do alright, because it *is* life and death, but on a very subtle scale.

Also, too, make sure you are familiar with the terms in which the company
does business in. IOW, if you are itrying to get a job,  find out what they
make, how its made, how your position fits into it, and how the corporation
as a whole did last year. Word your resume in a manner that would be
appealing to someone who is a manager the division you are looking to get
into so that you will actually have something to talk about that the
interviewer is interested in. I have found that you interviewing the
interviewer is far more pleasurable to the interviewer than the other
option. Remember, the easiest way to make someone favor you is for you to
favor them first and give them ample opportunity to talk about themselves.
Just shows how 2 dimensional most ppl are if such a simple thing an lock in
a job interview. Although I have had quite a few jobs, I was awarded every
job I interviewed for by using this technique. Good luck.

Rob

From: farky <farky at ix.netcom.com>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 6:10 PM
Subject: OT: employment


> Hey folks:
>
> Why is it so hard to get entry or nearly-entry level work as a tech?  I'm
> in the Seattle area, and it seems kind of weird that hardly any jobs are
> listed anyplace.  I've got a little experience and a 2-yr degree, but I
> never get responses to my resumes.  Anybody have any anecdotes about the
> business they could share?
>
> muchos gracias
> toby
>
>
>
>




From music.maker at gte.net  Sat Sep 23 07:09:24 2000
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 07:09:24
Subject: employment
Message-ID: <200009231405.JAA2002897@smtppop1.gte.net>

KA4HJH <ka4hjh at gte.net> wrote:
>So whatever you do, be careful about what you say on that job application!

Very true.  Although "creative writing" is an asset.  My own short 
anecdotal story:

I had been a computer hardware tech for many years and quite tired
of lugging up to 100 lbs of stuff from site to site.  I had always
loved programming and did prodigious quantities of it at home.  To
the point that degreed guys commented on my chops saying "why aren't
you doing this instead?".  I knew there was more $$, more fun and
no heavy lifting.

So, I began to evolve my resume.  I attenuated my hardware experience
and amplified my software.  For example, I had to write little
diagnostic scope loops...  That's legitimate programming, albeit
small.  It goes on the resume.  Anything I wrote at home went into
the "other experience" zone of the resume.  Mind you that any and all
was easily demonstrated.  Eventually, the hardware stuff went away.

At this point, I have worked for a private consulting firm, then 
American Honda Motors and now Kinko's Corporate.  In the last two
jobs, software I wrote hit many thousands of machines.  (read: if I
screwed it up, there would be no way to hide it and nowhere to hide)
The last job jump I made (to kinko's) went from 50K to 6 figures.  
I am their "permanent consulting contractor".  My contract was written 
for two months... That was two years ago.  This is because I am able to 
do what I say I can do, I don't lie, and I get along with everyone.

I have no degree in anything.

-- Scott Gravenhorst : On The Edge, but the Edge of What?
-- Linux Rex, Linux Vobiscum  |  RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: www.teklab.com/~chordman
-- NonFatMan: members.xoom.com/_XMCM/chordman/index.html
-- The 21st century does NOT start in the year 2000!!!





From ka4hjh at gte.net  Sat Sep 23 09:17:54 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 03:17:54 -0400
Subject: employment
In-Reply-To: <000701c02520$e210b1e0$fc372bd1@rob>
References: <200009230106.VAA00199@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
 <000701c02520$e210b1e0$fc372bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <p04330100b5f2066da53e@[63.28.152.194]>

>Well, FWIW, I know a guy who lied and said he had a BSEE, but he was a good
>enough tech that when they asked him the *money* questions during the
>interview he answered with authority so they never even bothered to check
>his references.  ; ) He is now a program manager and no one except me and a
>select few know about it.
>
>Honestly, too, after the fact the higher ups will not want to admit they
>were duped and will prolly not attempt to follow-up on the guy. As long as
>you can do the job, I really think mosts execs do not care enough about it
>to go through the trouble.

Heh, heh. This reminds me of the now infamous story of the guy who 
scammed his way into one of the major medical universities. He was 
rolling in research grants and cranking out the papers. Everyone was 
thrilled until one of his assistants discovered that he was faking 
results. It didn't take long for the whole thing to unravel except 
for the problem of getting rid of the SOB. The "higher-ups" were of 
course extremely embarrassed about the whole thing and he threatened 
to sue, blah blah blah. Fortunately, someone had the sense to check 
everything thoroughly. Seems he lied about his education on his job 
application to the university. And the funny thing was that right 
above his signature it had the usual statement about "falsifying any 
of this information is grounds for instant dismissal".

Even though this guy was full of it and perfectly capable of causing 
everyone a lot of grief, he was out the door overnight, and I 
seriously doubt any lawyer would touch that case with a ten foot pole.

So whatever you do, be careful about what you say on that job application!

BTW, they way he did the paper scam was to take an article from a 
really obscure journal and republish it somewhere else under his own 
name. He never got caught until after the shit hit the fan.


>But, getting your foot in the door these days *requires* at least a BSEE,
>and its starting to look like an MSEE is starting to take the place of the
>BSEE. Of course, what kills me is when I see a guy with an economics degree
>or something bumped up to Engineer or Program Manager while the rest of us
>techs and engineers plug away day after day waiting for a position like that
>to come open only to interview and be trounced by someone who didn't have to
>go through the weed out courses like Diff Eq, Thermodynamics, RF circuit
>analysis, etc. I guess drinking beer and playing golf with the right ppl has
>a lot to do with it too. Seems that the workplace gets more and more
>corrupted like that too unfortunately. They *want* a BSEE, but will *accept*
>their buddy who doesn't know much about circuits period, but needs money to
>buy a new house. ugh!

Yeah, pieces of paper/who you suck up to will always be more 
important to some employers. I highly recommend reading "What Color 
Is Your Parachute?" just for the part about the stupid ways potential 
employers avoid meeting qualified applicants. It's positively 
mind-boggling, and it goes on all the time.


>So, such is the market world. My advice: Get your piece of the pie anyway
>you can, be willing to *elaborate* a bit (just be sure to know your limits),
>and do anything you can to get a piece of the pie. The work enviroment IMHO
>is extremely hostile. If you treat it like life or death, you will generally
>do alright, because it *is* life and death, but on a very subtle scale.

Just watch what you say on anything you sign...


>Also, too, make sure you are familiar with the terms in which the company
>does business in. IOW, if you are itrying to get a job,  find out what they
>make, how its made, how your position fits into it, and how the corporation
>as a whole did last year. Word your resume in a manner that would be
>appealing to someone who is a manager the division you are looking to get
>into so that you will actually have something to talk about that the
>interviewer is interested in. I have found that you interviewing the
>interviewer is far more pleasurable to the interviewer than the other
>option. Remember, the easiest way to make someone favor you is for you to
>favor them first and give them ample opportunity to talk about themselves.
>Just shows how 2 dimensional most ppl are if such a simple thing an lock in
>a job interview. Although I have had quite a few jobs, I was awarded every
>job I interviewed for by using this technique. Good luck.

Cynical but true.


-- 
Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"



From carlosagv at iname.com  Sat Sep 23 10:17:26 2000
From: carlosagv at iname.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carlos_Alberto_Guti=E9rrez_Vera?=)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 03:17:26 -0500
Subject: Club
Message-ID: <001b01c02536$b95cc3e0$33f44dc6@fagu>

New Synth DIY Club

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/synthdiy
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From cagv at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 23 10:17:34 2000
From: cagv at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carlos_Alberto_Guti=E9rrez_Vera?=)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 03:17:34 -0500
Subject: Club
Message-ID: <OE17syWVLEFN03a5sqM00000615@hotmail.com>

New Synth DIY Club

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/synthdiy
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From blacet at monitor.net  Sat Sep 23 10:35:43 2000
From: blacet at monitor.net (John E Blacet)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 08:35:43 +0000
Subject: employment
References: <d.a422b7d.26fd95c9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39CC6B5F.4D70@monitor.net>

Hmmm, so let me get this straight. You go through dumpsters, fix up the
stuff and sell it on e-bay? And you know someone who makes $200K ayear
doing this?

I'm always interested in the unusual ways people make a living....and
getting more scared of e-bay everyday. (Although can't say I've gotten a
bad deal yet..).

Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From jhaible at t-online.de  Sat Sep 23 11:05:40 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:05:40 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de> <39CBA168.61A8BF1E@eunet.yu> <002b01c024cc$41a49f90$2c5e143f@Studio1>
Message-ID: <001a01c0253d$742098e0$1b2b9fc1@debitel.net>


> Ah ... no triangle, just (pseudo) saw and pulse.

But the CS-80 derives a sine wave (and thus a triangle as intermediate step)
from the "charge pump" saw.

JH.





From patchell at silcom.com  Sat Sep 23 17:59:26 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 08:59:26 -0700
Subject: Parts that might be of interest
Message-ID: <39CCD35E.B16EF3A2@silcom.com>

    Just got the latest Future-Active catalog.  There are a few things
in there that might be of interest to Synth-DIYers.

    J108 nfet Rds on = 8 ohms....$0.40
    J111 nfet Rds on = 30 ohms..$0.32 (this part is the same chip as the
2n4391, and a lot cheaper)
    U401 dual matched Jfet.........$7.90
    J174 pfet Rds on = 85 ohms..$0.28

    Those are all unit quantity prices.

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From jlarryh at iquest.net  Sat Sep 23 18:15:52 2000
From: jlarryh at iquest.net (J. Larry Hendry)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:15:52 -0500
Subject: employment
References: <d.a422b7d.26fd95c9@aol.com> <39CC6B5F.4D70@monitor.net>
Message-ID: <000a01c02579$8c625920$17362bd1@oemcomputer>

Gives new meaning to the old saying, "one mans trash is another's treasure."
;)
Larry H


----- Original Message ----- 
From: John E Blacet <blacet at monitor.net>
Hmmm, so let me get this straight. You go through dumpsters,
fix up the stuff and sell it on e-bay? And you know someone
who makes $200K ayear doing this?





From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 23 18:55:23 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:55:23 -0600
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de> <39CBA168.61A8BF1E@eunet.yu> <002b01c024cc$41a49f90$2c5e143f@Studio1> <001a01c0253d$742098e0$1b2b9fc1@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <005101c0257f$1233c1b0$10ab183f@Studio1>

Can you tell us how they do that? Or is the schematic up somewhere? Thanks.

  Ian


----- Original Message -----
From: "jh." <jhaible at t-online.de>
>
> But the CS-80 derives a sine wave (and thus a triangle as intermediate
step)
> from the "charge pump" saw.
>
> JH.
>





From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Sat Sep 23 19:11:50 2000
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:11:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: employment
In-Reply-To: <39CC6B5F.4D70@monitor.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009231255090.26318-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, John E Blacet wrote:

> I'm always interested in the unusual ways people make a living....and
> getting more scared of e-bay everyday. (Although can't say I've gotten a
> bad deal yet..).

  eBay has a curious rationale concerning items one puts up for auction.
If the item is something that you would otherwise throw away, it sells for
several thousand percent more than intrinsic value.  If, however, the item
is worth something in the eyes of the seller, it ends up selling for a
tenth of the expected price.

  I sold some coffee cans I paid 100 yen (about $1) each in a Tokyo
convenience store for between $50 and $75 each.  I sold a 'digitalker'
speech board circa 1981 for about $250, the original purchase price.  I
was expecting maybe ten bucks for it.

  The most expensive item I bought on eBay is the Yamaha DX1, which
(unfortunately, perhaps, for the seller) was mis-titled 'Yahama [sic] DX1
vintage analog keyboard', ended up selling for the reserve price
of $1K.  I wonder how many folks never saw that auction due to the poor
titling, heh heh.  (Of course, there are probably those who think a DX1
isn't worth $1K, but I think it is simply due to the quality of its
construction).

  Anyway, the lessons learned are: 1) junk sells for a fortune 2) the
auction title is *critical* to your sale!

Crow, who is also kind of scared of eBay...

/**/




From squarewave at jps.net  Sat Sep 23 19:17:28 2000
From: squarewave at jps.net (Debby and Gene Stopp)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:17:28 -0700
Subject: OT: Re: While we're off-topic, another obscure keyboardist
References: <v01510103b5df3260dc0a@[216.36.14.139]> <002701c01aa1$0a19e560$d195c6c3@RA> <39BB5DF7.467560C0@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <001f01c0282e$69203920$4f8f0d40@internetconnect.net>

My wife's brother handles distribution for Clearlight, and the web page also
(forget the URL, sorry). If anybody wants more info drop me an email.

Cyril has been to my house, about a year ago, jamming on all my vintage
stuff. He got a kick out of the fact that I have 3 Mellotrons!

- Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: "jbv" <jbv.silences at wanadoo.fr>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 3:10 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Re: While we're off-topic, another obscure keyboardist,
Mike Nock


>
>
> Torbj?rn H?rnfeldt :
>
> > Does "Clearlight Symphony" mean anything to you? UK and french
collaboration
> > with jazz-rock-symphonic touch I believe.
> >
> > Loved it when I heard it in late 70s, never got hold of the LP or CD
though.
> >
> > Even grateful for better identification than above....
> >
> > Torbj?rn
>
>
>
> MuseaRecords has the CD reissues.
> Check : http://www.musearecords.com/
>
> Original vinyls pop up now and then in local 2nd hand
> record fairs. Some items are easier to find (and thus cheaper)
> than other though...
>
> jbv
>
>
>
>





From squarewave at jps.net  Sat Sep 23 19:23:06 2000
From: squarewave at jps.net (Debby and Gene Stopp)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:23:06 -0700
Subject: asm1- dirfts on mods.
References: <200009122339.e8CNdJ527143@maggie.inter.net.il>
Message-ID: <002001c0282e$6a3d9000$4f8f0d40@internetconnect.net>

Here's some ideas....

Usually when the LFO affects the VCO's, or when the frequency pots cause a
pitch droop when they're turned all the way up, means that the impedance of
the power supply rails is non-zero. Either the power supply is not capable
of providing zero ohms to the rails (another way of saying that the current
rating is not high enough), or there's some impedance in the wiring to the
circuit board. Most often this means that the wires from the power supply to
the circuit board are too thin. Try using thicker wire for power
distribution (like 22 gauge or larger).

I have several running ASM-1's in different environments and none of them
have any LFO or frequency pot problems, so I know that these problems can be
solved... keep experimenting!

- Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "e" <edgarfov at zahav.net.il>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 5:39 PM
Subject: asm1- dirfts on mods.


> Hi all
>
> i have posted the lfo bad influ on the asm.
> tnx for all the advices.
> as i investigated the drift facts ,and implanted my own build
> regulator i (7815/7915) i have notice this new disturbinese in the force
>
> every pot. that has + to - 15 range and works as the modulator
> such as the FC (filter section) pot , or pwm pot.
> when the turn reaches the limit suddenly a small shift in the osc, is
heared.
> i scoped it , the change is measured like 30 to 40 mv shift.
>
> another fact is when i use my lab regulator , this anomaly
> almost dissapear , at least from the hearing range.
>
> tnx
>
> Aln
>
>
>
>





From squarewave at jps.net  Sat Sep 23 19:29:07 2000
From: squarewave at jps.net (Debby and Gene Stopp)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:29:07 -0700
Subject: HoeDown
References: <200009181454_MC2-B3CB-E597@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <002101c0282e$6bd80620$4f8f0d40@internetconnect.net>

I've done this on Keith's Moog (yeah I was the moog tech in '92, along with
Will Alexander). Terry's right, no delay needed. The 911 ADSR at the far
right of the lower console was always patched into the external CV input on
the control voltage distribution panel under VCO's 1 and 2, which were tuned
to root/fifth for Hoedown. VCO 3 was not swept and remained at the root,
which actually provided lots of the patch foundations (like Aquatarkus live
among others).

I remember being on stage during rehersals, running through the patches on
the big Moog while front-of-house mix was turned way up, and Greg Lake
walked over to me and said "You did that then? Veeeery Nice!".

- Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Michaels" <104065.2340 at compuserve.com>
To: <WeAreAs1 at aol.com>; "synth-diy" <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: HoeDown


> Message text written by INTERNET:WeAreAs1 at aol.com
> >Note however, that a simple pitch-envelope modulated VCO patch will not
> really get this exact effect.  There also must be a delayed attack, so
that
>
> the pitch glide does not start at the onset of the note, but rather about
a
>
> beat later.  Keith probably used a trigger delay to achieve this.  Of
> course,
> this same effect could also be approximated by simply playing a note, then
> playing the note one octave above, and having portamento turned on.  The
> down
> side of doing it this way is that in this particular piece, the intro
> figure
> needs to be repeated over and over.  So if he had portamento turned on,
the
>
> note would also glide back down every time he repeated the figure (low
note
>
> to high note, low note to high note, etc.).  Emerson's sound only glides
> going up, which suggests that he used an envelope to create the octave
> jump.
> Also, the tming of the jump is not an exact quarter note, but a kind of
> loose
> quarter note, probably because it was hard to get an envelope to always be
> rhythmically precise.  (this looseness adds to the flavor, anyway)
>
> Michael Bacich<
>
> Hi Michael:
>
> I have exactly duplicated this effect with my modular synth, no delay
> trigger is needed.  It's been awhile, but if I remember right, set up one
> VCO in the usual way, mix the output with the output of a second VCO, and
> then run the mix to a VCA and then out to your amp and speakers.  You run
> the output of a ADSR type envelope generator into the second  VCO, the
> initial attack (A) gives you the desired  pitch ramp-up time of about a
> quarter note, the delay (D) is set to zero, the sustain control (S) is set
> to give you the desired pitch (a fifth above the other VCO), the release
> control (R) is set to zero.  The envelope generator controlling the VCA is
> set to a fair amount of sustain (R set for a few seconds).   Every time
you
> press a key on the keyboard, you get the effect used in the intro to the
> song.   If you play legato, you get the VCO's doing parallel fifths,
> Emerson did that for a few measures toward the end of the song.
Keyboard
> portamento is set quite short, or none at all.
>
> Terry Michaels
>





From squarewave at jps.net  Sat Sep 23 19:31:14 2000
From: squarewave at jps.net (Debby and Gene Stopp)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:31:14 -0700
Subject: HoeDown   (asymmetrical portamento?)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000919062438.00989aa4@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <002201c0282e$6eb90600$4f8f0d40@internetconnect.net>

Yes diodes, plus a center-off switch to provide up, up/down, and down modes.
Like Paul says, it does not work entirely well for exponential portamento,
but when the diodes are inside a feedback loop (such as in linear
portamento) this works great. Did this on my first modular (the ENS-73 when
I was in high school).

- Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: HoeDown (asymmetrical portamento?)


> At 12:20 AM 19/09/00 -0400, Glen <mclilith wrote:
> >
> >Just curious, has anyone ever made an asymmetrical portamento? One where
> >the "gliding up" speed could be independently adjusted from the "gliding
> >down" speed? (Or even turn off the effect in one direction.)
> >
> well yes, with diodes, but the diode drops bugger it up, unless you use
> a more sophisticated circuit.
>
> paul perry Melbourne australia
>
>





From bnillson at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 23 23:52:25 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:52:25 GMT
Subject: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
Message-ID: <F162P6i4w3sgT404Cfn000028f2@hotmail.com>

Hi.

Over a couple of months i have been trying to design a
discrete PM oscillator and still do so until it gets ready
for publication (if, it works well that will say) you
can go to:

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/4046.htm

This 4046 design is used as a scratch pad for the
discrete PM oscillator, it was also a try out
to se what one actually could do with the 4046 PLL.

Some one on the list once said:
"One wishes that more could be done with the 4046".

Well, i think that the 4046 is a wery nice device if
one takes care of what it delivers.If it was not for
the linearity error it would have been a damn good
VCO!

The design delivers so many different wave shapes
that i got fedup by trying to draw them of the
scope screen (have no digital camera)but many
of the more interesting ones is in the graph.

A note to the sound of shape no 12, it does not look
much to the eye but the sound is really interesting.
Imagine this, a piece of styrofoam rooling down a plastic tube!!
A sort of flanging sound!

There is a wave that i have missed to draw,but sound
wise it sounds like synced oscillators.

The shape no 3 and 2 is WERY fat, fat as in 30 kilo "GREASE",
not phat, "FAT". Use those wave shapes and you have the
bassiest bass sound on the planet!Mini Moog go home!

There might be faults in the text and or design and
im listening to anyone who reports such issues.

Add the Computer Noise generator to any odrinary VCO design
and you get PM,Ring mod,PWM computer noise to your synth.

Reg
BJ

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From bnillson at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 00:18:45 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:18:45 GMT
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
Message-ID: <F78fu2hRM1YBTUA93Ni00001a5e@hotmail.com>


> > Ah ... no triangle, just (pseudo) saw and pulse.
>
>But the CS-80 derives a sine wave (and thus a triangle as intermediate 
>step)
>from the "charge pump" saw.
>
>JH.

Is there actually a shematic or block diagram of the CS80 VCO IC?

BJ
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From ka4hjh at gte.net  Sun Sep 24 00:23:28 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:23:28 -0400
Subject: employment
In-Reply-To: <001101c025b2$55c73960$30362bd1@rob>
References:  <200009230106.VAA00199@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net><000701c02520$e210b1e0$fc
 372bd1@rob> <p04330100b5f2066da53e@[63.28.152.194]>
 <001101c025b2$55c73960$30362bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <p04330102b5f2dc4a161b@[63.28.152.187]>

>  > Even though this guy was full of it and perfectly capable of causing
>>  everyone a lot of grief, he was out the door overnight, and I
>>  seriously doubt any lawyer would touch that case with a ten foot pole.
>
>Any lawyer will *take* a case, no matter how absurd, as long as you have the
>money for his services.

Well, of course, but that's assuming that someone is stupid enough to 
keep paying for no results! They're out there...

In this particular case this fellow was suddenly faced with NO 
academic/research/professional future, which means that whatever 
assets he possessed probably became very precious overnight.

>Remember the *granny coffee spill* case? That was
>pure bunk, and at the time I even believe that the coffee had an expressed
>warning right on the cover, but with a good enough lawyer, you can win
>anything. Ask Sony about all the technology they supposedly *invented* and
>had *prior technology* on, but could not reproduce in any capacity or figure
>out how to manufacture. Then, they sued the corporation to make them sell
>the stuff to them because Sony argued it *wasnt fair* that they could
>manufacture it while Sony could not.

Sony has the cash.


>FWIW, there have been multiple cases of ppl in the medical field
>misrepresenting themselves. There was another case where a guy *bought* a
>medical degree from an offshore university, I think in Senegal. 5000
>dollars.. Worked as a doctor at some very well known hospitals for almost 20
>years before he was caught. The AMA is very tight about information
>regarding medical disciplinary actions and coddles many bad  or doctors of
>unknown origin. There was another instance where a guy just came right off
>of the street and perpetrated himself as a doctor and actually got the job!
>No degree, nada. That buffoonery went on for years before anyone acted upon
>it either, and even then, he did not face any criminal charges afterwards
>because of the loose wording of the paperwork and legalities.

This sort of thing has become all too common in the last twenty years.


>Honestly, in a lot of positions a good tech can imitate an engineer fairly
>well and no one would *ever* know the difference. And, even if they ever
>were found out, who cares? Not much the corporation can/will do either way
>because it would give them bad publicity and they do not want to risk it.
>Brand is above all else.

That's how it usually works. But a good tech worth a lot. Pieces of 
paper don't mean squat when something needs to go out the door.

"Handsome is as handsome does"--The Old Gaffer.


>For some reason, in the mere 30 years I have been on this planet, I have had
>the displeasure of seeing nearly every scam in the book act itself out
>around me. I guess thats why I am so cynical.  :)) Sorry about that.
>

Not your fault. I say subvert from within!


-- 
Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"



From jamos at technotoys.com  Sun Sep 24 00:39:03 2000
From: jamos at technotoys.com (Jim Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:39:03 -0700
Subject: employment
In-Reply-To: <001101c025b2$55c73960$30362bd1@rob>
References: <200009230106.VAA00199@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
 <000701c02520$e210b1e0$fc372bd1@rob>
 <p04330100b5f2066da53e@[63.28.152.194]>
 <001101c025b2$55c73960$30362bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <200009231539030390.00A1D75D@mail.pond.net>

> Any lawyer will *take* a case, no matter how absurd, as long as you have
the
> money for his services. Remember the *granny coffee spill* case? 

Yeah, we do. The "granny" was given coffee that was hot enough to require
skin grafts. At a drive-thru window, where the chances of spilling the
coffee are really high. Good thing she won.

Jim Johnson 
Metaphoric Software
-------------------
Makers of Techno Toys
Software for Electronic Music
http://www.technotoys.com
info at technotoys.com




*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/23/00 at 4:02 PM Rob wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: KA4HJH <ka4hjh at gte.net>
>To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 12:17 AM
>Subject: Re: employment
>
>
>> >Well, FWIW, I know a guy who lied and said he had a BSEE, but he was a
>good
>> >enough tech that when they asked him the *money* questions during the
>> >interview he answered with authority so they never even bothered to
check
>> >his references.  ; ) He is now a program manager and no one except me
and
>a
>> >select few know about it.
>> >
>> >Honestly, too, after the fact the higher ups will not want to admit
they
>> >were duped and will prolly not attempt to follow-up on the guy. As long
>as
>> >you can do the job, I really think mosts execs do not care enough about
>it
>> >to go through the trouble.
>>
>> Heh, heh. This reminds me of the now infamous story of the guy who
>> scammed his way into one of the major medical universities. He was
>> rolling in research grants and cranking out the papers. Everyone was
>> thrilled until one of his assistants discovered that he was faking
>> results. It didn't take long for the whole thing to unravel except
>> for the problem of getting rid of the SOB. The "higher-ups" were of
>> course extremely embarrassed about the whole thing and he threatened
>> to sue, blah blah blah. Fortunately, someone had the sense to check
>> everything thoroughly. Seems he lied about his education on his job
>> application to the university. And the funny thing was that right
>> above his signature it had the usual statement about "falsifying any
>> of this information is grounds for instant dismissal".
>>
>> Even though this guy was full of it and perfectly capable of causing
>> everyone a lot of grief, he was out the door overnight, and I
>> seriously doubt any lawyer would touch that case with a ten foot pole.
>
>Any lawyer will *take* a case, no matter how absurd, as long as you have
the
>money for his services. Remember the *granny coffee spill* case? That was
>pure bunk, and at the time I even believe that the coffee had an expressed
>warning right on the cover, but with a good enough lawyer, you can win
>anything. Ask Sony about all the technology they supposedly *invented* and
>had *prior technology* on, but could not reproduce in any capacity or
figure
>out how to manufacture. Then, they sued the corporation to make them sell
>the stuff to them because Sony argued it *wasnt fair* that they could
>manufacture it while Sony could not.
>
>FWIW, there have been multiple cases of ppl in the medical field
>misrepresenting themselves. There was another case where a guy *bought* a
>medical degree from an offshore university, I think in Senegal. 5000
>dollars.. Worked as a doctor at some very well known hospitals for almost
20
>years before he was caught. The AMA is very tight about information
>regarding medical disciplinary actions and coddles many bad  or doctors of
>unknown origin. There was another instance where a guy just came right off
>of the street and perpetrated himself as a doctor and actually got the
job!
>No degree, nada. That buffoonery went on for years before anyone acted
upon
>it either, and even then, he did not face any criminal charges afterwards
>because of the loose wording of the paperwork and legalities.
>
>Honestly, in a lot of positions a good tech can imitate an engineer fairly
>well and no one would *ever* know the difference. And, even if they ever
>were found out, who cares? Not much the corporation can/will do either way
>because it would give them bad publicity and they do not want to risk it.
>Brand is above all else.
>
>For some reason, in the mere 30 years I have been on this planet, I have
had
>the displeasure of seeing nearly every scam in the book act itself out
>around me. I guess thats why I am so cynical.  :)) Sorry about that.
>
>
>
>Rob






From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 24 00:41:05 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:41:05 +0200
Subject: ASM-1 powersupply help
In-Reply-To: <200009232154.e8NLsIZ24872@maggie.inter.net.il>
References: <200009232154.e8NLsIZ24872@maggie.inter.net.il>
Message-ID: <20000924004105U.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: e <edgarfov at zahav.net.il>
Subject: ASM-1 powersupply help
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:54:42 +0200

> 
> Well
> after many debating and eliminations about the asm drifting in certain
> conditions
> i have concluded that i need to build a better power supply/regulator
> then the one im using right now based on 7815 7915 regs
> any suggestion / schematics / help 
> will be a great help.
> cause with my present knoledge ,hard to solve the case..

I think that you would like to use a 723 base PSU like the one used in the
Elektor Formant for instance:

http://omega.tellus.vallentuna.se/anders/synthar.html

(Anders site is at http://omega.tellus.vallentuna.se/anders/)

You will find the powersupply in Chapter 3. It is very simple and should not
have you face any major trouble. It's capable of delivering about 800 mA and
a typical ASM-1 is eating about 100 mA, so for a single ASM-1 you should have
a good margin and the 2N3055s will not be ultra-hot. Sounds like a treat.
Just put the 2N3055s on sufficiently large heatsinks.

Hmm... just reminded me that I have one of those PSUs to hook up to one of my
ASM-1s...

Cheers,
Magnus




From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sun Sep 24 01:02:21 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:02:21 -0700
Subject: employment
References: <200009230106.VAA00199@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net><000701c02520$e210b1e0$fc372bd1@rob> <p04330100b5f2066da53e@[63.28.152.194]>
Message-ID: <001101c025b2$55c73960$30362bd1@rob>


----- Original Message -----
From: KA4HJH <ka4hjh at gte.net>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: employment


> >Well, FWIW, I know a guy who lied and said he had a BSEE, but he was a
good
> >enough tech that when they asked him the *money* questions during the
> >interview he answered with authority so they never even bothered to check
> >his references.  ; ) He is now a program manager and no one except me and
a
> >select few know about it.
> >
> >Honestly, too, after the fact the higher ups will not want to admit they
> >were duped and will prolly not attempt to follow-up on the guy. As long
as
> >you can do the job, I really think mosts execs do not care enough about
it
> >to go through the trouble.
>
> Heh, heh. This reminds me of the now infamous story of the guy who
> scammed his way into one of the major medical universities. He was
> rolling in research grants and cranking out the papers. Everyone was
> thrilled until one of his assistants discovered that he was faking
> results. It didn't take long for the whole thing to unravel except
> for the problem of getting rid of the SOB. The "higher-ups" were of
> course extremely embarrassed about the whole thing and he threatened
> to sue, blah blah blah. Fortunately, someone had the sense to check
> everything thoroughly. Seems he lied about his education on his job
> application to the university. And the funny thing was that right
> above his signature it had the usual statement about "falsifying any
> of this information is grounds for instant dismissal".
>
> Even though this guy was full of it and perfectly capable of causing
> everyone a lot of grief, he was out the door overnight, and I
> seriously doubt any lawyer would touch that case with a ten foot pole.

Any lawyer will *take* a case, no matter how absurd, as long as you have the
money for his services. Remember the *granny coffee spill* case? That was
pure bunk, and at the time I even believe that the coffee had an expressed
warning right on the cover, but with a good enough lawyer, you can win
anything. Ask Sony about all the technology they supposedly *invented* and
had *prior technology* on, but could not reproduce in any capacity or figure
out how to manufacture. Then, they sued the corporation to make them sell
the stuff to them because Sony argued it *wasnt fair* that they could
manufacture it while Sony could not.

FWIW, there have been multiple cases of ppl in the medical field
misrepresenting themselves. There was another case where a guy *bought* a
medical degree from an offshore university, I think in Senegal. 5000
dollars.. Worked as a doctor at some very well known hospitals for almost 20
years before he was caught. The AMA is very tight about information
regarding medical disciplinary actions and coddles many bad  or doctors of
unknown origin. There was another instance where a guy just came right off
of the street and perpetrated himself as a doctor and actually got the job!
No degree, nada. That buffoonery went on for years before anyone acted upon
it either, and even then, he did not face any criminal charges afterwards
because of the loose wording of the paperwork and legalities.

Honestly, in a lot of positions a good tech can imitate an engineer fairly
well and no one would *ever* know the difference. And, even if they ever
were found out, who cares? Not much the corporation can/will do either way
because it would give them bad publicity and they do not want to risk it.
Brand is above all else.

For some reason, in the mere 30 years I have been on this planet, I have had
the displeasure of seeing nearly every scam in the book act itself out
around me. I guess thats why I am so cynical.  :)) Sorry about that.



Rob





From jhaible at t-online.de  Sun Sep 24 01:10:27 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 01:10:27 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de> <39CBA168.61A8BF1E@eunet.yu> <002b01c024cc$41a49f90$2c5e143f@Studio1> <001a01c0253d$742098e0$1b2b9fc1@debitel.net> <005101c0257f$1233c1b0$10ab183f@Studio1>
Message-ID: <000601c02600$99b7f800$32c99b3e@debitel.net>


> Can you tell us how they do that? Or is the schematic up somewhere?
Thanks.

Schematics are *somewhere*.  I haven't bookmarked it, but some big CS-80
site has them all.
No detailed description how it's done, however. It looks like they're using
a pulse that's active during the reset time to "stuff" the gap in the saw
wave.
If they do sine waveshaping with the usual soft clipping, this would barely
be noticeable in the sine wave. But I may as well have drawn wrong
conclusions
here.

JH.





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 24 02:46:54 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 02:46:54 +0200
Subject: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
In-Reply-To: <F162P6i4w3sgT404Cfn000028f2@hotmail.com>
References: <F162P6i4w3sgT404Cfn000028f2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000924024654Q.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:52:25 GMT

> Hi.

Hi there Bj?rn,

> Over a couple of months i have been trying to design a
> discrete PM oscillator and still do so until it gets ready
> for publication (if, it works well that will say) you
> can go to:
> 
> http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/4046.htm

Ah, that looks interesting.

> This 4046 design is used as a scratch pad for the
> discrete PM oscillator, it was also a try out
> to se what one actually could do with the 4046 PLL.
> 
> Some one on the list once said:
> "One wishes that more could be done with the 4046".
> 
> Well, i think that the 4046 is a wery nice device if
> one takes care of what it delivers.If it was not for
> the linearity error it would have been a damn good
> VCO!

Certainly, it has a nice twist to the reset problem, it just skips the whole
reset thing ;)

> The design delivers so many different wave shapes
> that i got fedup by trying to draw them of the
> scope screen (have no digital camera)but many
> of the more interesting ones is in the graph.

Well, having 43 listed I can understand

> A note to the sound of shape no 12, it does not look
> much to the eye but the sound is really interesting.
> Imagine this, a piece of styrofoam rooling down a plastic tube!!
> A sort of flanging sound!

hum... and I whole allways drop a piece of styrofoam through a plastic tube ;)

> There is a wave that i have missed to draw,but sound
> wise it sounds like synced oscillators.
> 
> The shape no 3 and 2 is WERY fat, fat as in 30 kilo "GREASE",
> not phat, "FAT". Use those wave shapes and you have the
> bassiest bass sound on the planet!Mini Moog go home!

Hehehe ;)

> There might be faults in the text and or design and
> im listening to anyone who reports such issues.

I'll be checking it out more carefull.

You seem to have some nice thing happening there dude!

Cheers,
Magnus



From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sun Sep 24 04:15:36 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:15:36 -0700
Subject: employment
References: <200009230106.VAA00199@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net><000701c02520$e210b1e0$fc372bd1@rob><p04330100b5f2066da53e@[63.28.152.194]><001101c025b2$55c73960$30362bd1@rob> <200009231539030390.00A1D75D@mail.pond.net>
Message-ID: <000701c025cd$54573a60$30362bd1@rob>

Well, lets put it this way: I *agree* that the coffee was too hot, OTOH, it
takes quite a bit less temperature in that area to cause a burn requiring
graft. Whereas anywhere else, the coffee probably wouldn't have required
hospitalization.

I, too, am glad on her part that she won only so that she would be able to
pay her outrageous doctors bills, but on the other hand, it is common
knowledge that coffee is hot and you do NOT want to spill it anywhere. This
unfortunately shows that the judicial system is up for grabs to the highest
bidder and the best sob story.

This, coming from someone who recieved a huge blistering on the back of
their hand this past summer from such a coffee spill. heh.. I was a dumbass,
and I had a reasonable amount of mindfulness to realize that what I was
engaged in could result in a spill.  I took my chances. She took hers.

My problem with many of these cases is that ppl should be allowed to live
and die (if it comes down to it) by their own decisions. IMHO the judicial
system shouldnt be in the business of saving ppl from themselves. There are
far larger fish to fry (pun intended) that are willing to do far more to
abbreviate the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Not like this stupid case hasn't already been beaten to death in the press.
; )

 rant (off);

If you wish to continue this Quixotic argument to try to "convert" me to a
creepy feelgood dopesmokin new-age nicety-nice tree-huggin animal-lovin
freak, forget it.  Its too late.

I already play one in real life. ; )

Im just not one on this particular item.

Rob







From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 24 04:39:34 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:39:34 -0400
Subject: ASM-1 powersupply help
References: <200009232154.e8NLsIZ24872@maggie.inter.net.il> <20000924004105U.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39CD6966.D53B00BC@prodigy.net>

OTOH : all the PowerOne linear supplies ARE 723 based, and in the surplus
market can be had for as little as $12.95 plus shipping.  (all electronics... see
yesterday's
posts... if you can't find them I'll look it up...)

You probably can't build one for that cheap... and they are a design right out of
the
datasheet, so you would not miss learning much if you just read the datasheet...

Of course if you are on Apollo 11 on the way back from the moon and "Houston...
we have a problem here...." then doing it the hard way is the only way.

The moral... don't re-invent the wheel.  Save that time for a nice VCO, or
Filter, that
you CANNOT buy for $12.95 (plus shipping...)

H^)   harry

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: e <edgarfov at zahav.net.il>
> Subject: ASM-1 powersupply help
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:54:42 +0200
>
> >
> > Well
> > after many debating and eliminations about the asm drifting in certain
> > conditions
> > i have concluded that i need to build a better power supply/regulator
> > then the one im using right now based on 7815 7915 regs
> > any suggestion / schematics / help
> > will be a great help.
> > cause with my present knoledge ,hard to solve the case..
>
> I think that you would like to use a 723 base PSU like the one used in the
> Elektor Formant for instance:
>
> http://omega.tellus.vallentuna.se/anders/synthar.html
>
> (Anders site is at http://omega.tellus.vallentuna.se/anders/)
>
> You will find the powersupply in Chapter 3. It is very simple and should not
> have you face any major trouble. It's capable of delivering about 800 mA and
> a typical ASM-1 is eating about 100 mA, so for a single ASM-1 you should have
> a good margin and the 2N3055s will not be ultra-hot. Sounds like a treat.
> Just put the 2N3055s on sufficiently large heatsinks.
>
> Hmm... just reminded me that I have one of those PSUs to hook up to one of my
> ASM-1s...
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 24 05:26:46 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:26:46 -0400
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
References: <200009232154.e8NLsIZ24872@maggie.inter.net.il> <20000924004105U.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39CD6966.D53B00BC@prodigy.net> <000b01c025e3$aa078f80$23312bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <39CD7476.EC26F41A@prodigy.net>

Well ...  (blonde mode on)

They both have three letters.

Each share the letter "S" and the letter "M"

They both have one vowel...

But "SEM" has an "E", while "ASM" has an "A"

The consonants are in the same relative order, but the vowels differ.

I'd say oh, maybe 75% similar....

(blonde mode off)

H^)  harry

duh? That wasn't what you meant ?

Rob wrote:

> Just wondering how close the ASM is to an SEM. Anyone with any opinions?
>
> Thinkin about building one.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Rob




From elmacaco at ozemail.com.au  Sun Sep 24 05:44:52 2000
From: elmacaco at ozemail.com.au (Eduardo Saponara)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:44:52 +1000
Subject: employment
Message-ID: <000401c025ec$89c56ae0$50a854d2@preferred-user>

I heard a story about some place in the US where the doctors went on strike
for like 2 weeks.  and in those two weeks the town had 5000 less deaths than
average.  Further investigation revealed that many of the doctors had been
practicing surgury even though they weren't qualified surgeons!

hey, I want to know how to make 200K a year by selling trash on ebay!





From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sun Sep 24 06:55:29 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:55:29 -0700
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
References: <200009232154.e8NLsIZ24872@maggie.inter.net.il> <20000924004105U.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39CD6966.D53B00BC@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c025e3$aa078f80$23312bd1@rob>

Just wondering how close the ASM is to an SEM. Anyone with any opinions?

Thinkin about building one.

Thanks in advance, 

Rob




From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sun Sep 24 08:20:56 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:20:56 -0700
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
References: <200009232154.e8NLsIZ24872@maggie.inter.net.il> <20000924004105U.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39CD6966.D53B00BC@prodigy.net> <000b01c025e3$aa078f80$23312bd1@rob> <39CD7476.EC26F41A@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <001601c025ef$9f885f60$1b372bd1@rob>

Er, I thought that it used the same type of filter? Honestly, sonically and
modulation-wise, how close is it? It *looks* a heck of a lot like an SEM,
and the filter topology does look a bit similiar, but I want to know mainly
about the sounds.

Does that clarify things?  ; )

Rob

Wondering if its possible to lay the thing out in SMD so it can be
rackmounted in only a few spaces........

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
To: Rob <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
Cc: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?


> Well ...  (blonde mode on)
>
> They both have three letters.
>
> Each share the letter "S" and the letter "M"
>
> They both have one vowel...
>
> But "SEM" has an "E", while "ASM" has an "A"
>
> The consonants are in the same relative order, but the vowels differ.
>
> I'd say oh, maybe 75% similar....
>
> (blonde mode off)
>
> H^)  harry
>
> duh? That wasn't what you meant ?
>
> Rob wrote:
>
> > Just wondering how close the ASM is to an SEM. Anyone with any opinions?
> >
> > Thinkin about building one.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Rob
>
>




From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Sun Sep 24 08:26:04 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:26:04 -0700
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
References: <200009232154.e8NLsIZ24872@maggie.inter.net.il> <20000924004105U.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39CD6966.D53B00BC@prodigy.net> <000b01c025e3$aa078f80$23312bd1@rob> <39CD7476.EC26F41A@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <001c01c025f0$5238b240$1b372bd1@rob>


----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
To: Rob <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
Cc: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?


> Well ...  (blonde mode on)
>
> duh? That wasn't what you meant ?

BTW, Harry, you are scaring me. Stop it. ; )

Drop the soldering iron NOW and slooowlyyy step awaaaayyy from the synth.
; ))

Rob





From urekar.m at EUnet.yu  Sun Sep 24 11:15:08 2000
From: urekar.m at EUnet.yu (>>>marjan<<<)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 11:15:08 +0200
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA028BCEE9@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de> <39CBA168.61A8BF1E@eunet.yu> <002b01c024cc$41a49f90$2c5e143f@Studio1> <001a01c0253d$742098e0$1b2b9fc1@debitel.net> <005101c0257f$1233c1b0$10ab183f@Studio1> <000601c02600$99b7f800$32c99b3e@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <39CDC61C.30F15760@eunet.yu>

> > Can you tell us how they do that? Or is the schematic up somewhere?
> Thanks.
> 
> Schematics are *somewhere*.  I haven't bookmarked it, but some big CS-80
> site has them all.

Yes they were but it seems that site is offline:
http://bermuda.ucd.ie/bridge/cs80.html
so, here they are on my site (well just voice section)
circ 5&7 are voice and RM and circ 1 has interesting cct for that
famous ribbon controller ( all files 500K+ ):

http://members.xoom.com/forcemajeure/download/cs80_circ1.jpg
http://members.xoom.com/forcemajeure/download/cs80_circ5.jpg
http://members.xoom.com/forcemajeure/download/cs80_circ7.jpg



Cheers,


marjan



From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Sun Sep 24 17:05:52 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (terry michaels)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 11:05:52 -0400
Subject: employment
Message-ID: <200009241105_MC2-B46B-C9E9@compuserve.com>

Message text written by INTERNET:CHoaglin at aol.com
>So, such is the market world. My advice: Get your piece of the pie anyway

you can, be willing to *elaborate* a bit (just be sure to know your
limits),

and do anything you can to get a piece of the pie. The work enviroment IMHO

is extremely hostile. If you treat it like life or death, you will
generally

do alright, because it *is* life and death, but on a very subtle scale. >><

Hi Chris:

Another option is to start your own business, preferably technology based. 
Since you're the boss, having a degree is irrelevant.  For me it took two
tries, the first business I ran for a number of years, ultimately had no
future, and I closed it.  The second business I started has done real well,
I can sell out anytime and never have to work again.  Now, I have the means
to pursue what really matters:  composing, recording, and designing and
building synthesizers.

Terry Michaels



From guandul at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 18:43:20 2000
From: guandul at hotmail.com (Ramón Mena)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:43:20 GMT
Subject: unsubscribe synth-diy
Message-ID: <F1608ta3IaUvsXuHtxH00000c32@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe synth-diy
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From stevenvi at pacbell.net  Sun Sep 24 19:15:50 2000
From: stevenvi at pacbell.net (Steve Sheckells)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:15:50 -0700
Subject: Fw: employment
Message-ID: <000b01c0264b$176d0fc0$6255d7cf@net>

Chris
    In order to get ahead as it were, I seen a lot of suggestions about
Hi-Tech , Hardware vs Software, et al. Since you are just starting my
suggestion is to really search yourself and decide what you like .......
love to do. The old saying" If you do what you love......You will never work
a day in your life' is true. As you focus on what you like ...then examine
the fringe. I used to work in a Nuclear Power Plant and our Elect Techs made
Hi $5 figures, their supervisors made $6 figures. Thaere are a lot more
industries beside electronics that use and rely on elect techs
Steve Sheckells
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Saponara" <elmacaco at ozemail.com.au>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: employment


> I heard a story about some place in the US where the doctors went on
strike
> for like 2 weeks.  and in those two weeks the town had 5000 less deaths
than
> average.  Further investigation revealed that many of the doctors had been
> practicing surgury even though they weren't qualified surgeons!
>
> hey, I want to know how to make 200K a year by selling trash on ebay!
>
>




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 24 19:24:35 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:24:35 +0200
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
In-Reply-To: <39CD7476.EC26F41A@prodigy.net>
References: <39CD6966.D53B00BC@prodigy.net>
	<000b01c025e3$aa078f80$23312bd1@rob>
	<39CD7476.EC26F41A@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20000924192435K.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:26:46 -0400

> Well ...  (blonde mode on)
> 
> They both have three letters.
> 
> Each share the letter "S" and the letter "M"
> 
> They both have one vowel...
> 
> But "SEM" has an "E", while "ASM" has an "A"
> 
> The consonants are in the same relative order, but the vowels differ.
> 
> I'd say oh, maybe 75% similar....
> 
> (blonde mode off)

You are wikied Harry! ;)

> H^)  harry
> 
> duh? That wasn't what you meant ?

Something tells me that it was not exactly what he meant ;)

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 24 19:29:07 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:29:07 +0200
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
In-Reply-To: <001601c025ef$9f885f60$1b372bd1@rob>
References: <000b01c025e3$aa078f80$23312bd1@rob>
	<39CD7476.EC26F41A@prodigy.net>
	<001601c025ef$9f885f60$1b372bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <20000924192907E.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Rob" <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
Subject: Re: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:20:56 -0700

> Er, I thought that it used the same type of filter? Honestly, sonically and
> modulation-wise, how close is it? It *looks* a heck of a lot like an SEM,
> and the filter topology does look a bit similiar, but I want to know mainly
> about the sounds.
> 
> Does that clarify things?  ; )

Eh, right... ;)

The filter is certainly up the SEM lane, especially the diode based limiter in
the feedback path springs to mind. If I recall correctly Gene did have the SEM
in mind when he cooked this thing up.

> Rob
> 
> Wondering if its possible to lay the thing out in SMD so it can be
> rackmounted in only a few spaces........

The actual ASM-1 with a sufficent powersupply will fit into a 1 U box, no
probelms. The problem is the user interface, getting sufficient amount of pots
and jacks in there. So, have a look at how you do that. I think J?rgen
Bergfors Bergfotron should be a good source of inspiration here.

Cheers,
Magnus



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 24 19:31:17 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:31:17 +0200
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
In-Reply-To: <001c01c025f0$5238b240$1b372bd1@rob>
References: <000b01c025e3$aa078f80$23312bd1@rob>
	<39CD7476.EC26F41A@prodigy.net>
	<001c01c025f0$5238b240$1b372bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <20000924193117C.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Rob" <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
Subject: Re: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:26:04 -0700

> > Well ...  (blonde mode on)
> >
> > duh? That wasn't what you meant ?
> 
> BTW, Harry, you are scaring me. Stop it. ; )
> 
> Drop the soldering iron NOW and slooowlyyy step awaaaayyy from the synth.
> ; ))

Yes, which judge was it that where giving rullings like not allowing someone
to be in the same room as a synth AND tools??? ;)

Cheers,
Magnus - in a room containing both synths and tools




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Sep 24 19:57:01 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:57:01 -0400
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
References: <000b01c025e3$aa078f80$23312bd1@rob>
		<39CD7476.EC26F41A@prodigy.net>
		<001c01c025f0$5238b240$1b372bd1@rob> <20000924193117C.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39CE406D.6DFFDFBF@prodigy.net>

It was not a Judge... I think it was Satan !

He gives fisherman a choice...

Choose one only... Beer,  or Bait....

H^)  harry

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: "Rob" <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>
> Subject: Re: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:26:04 -0700
>
> > > Well ...  (blonde mode on)
> > >
> > > duh? That wasn't what you meant ?
> >
> > BTW, Harry, you are scaring me. Stop it. ; )
> >
> > Drop the soldering iron NOW and slooowlyyy step awaaaayyy from the synth.
> > ; ))
>
> Yes, which judge was it that where giving rullings like not allowing someone
> to be in the same room as a synth AND tools??? ;)
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus - in a room containing both synths and tools




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 24 21:47:26 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:47:26 +0200
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
Message-ID: <20000924214726K.cfmd@swipnet.se>

Hi!

I just wanted to contribute to the digital DIY thread... now if you
want to do it more ultimately you would surely want to do it in an
ASIC, right?

Now, doing ASIC or even full custom chips is not something you do on
your average private budget, but sometimes there comes oppertunities
which you can't refuse... when the company you work for makes an ASIC.
So, then you can be smart enougth to construct things so that they
could be used for digital synthesis.... as a side effect ;)

This is evil, but it can be done. Hehehehe >:)

Now back to the regular programing...

Cheers,
Magnus




From clark at andrews.edu  Sun Sep 24 22:35:19 2000
From: clark at andrews.edu (Tony Clark)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:35:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ASM-1; How close is it to the SEM?
In-Reply-To: <39CE406D.6DFFDFBF@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1000924163314.22687B-100000@edmund.cs.andrews.edu>

> It was not a Judge... I think it was Satan !
> 
> He gives fisherman a choice...
> 
> Choose one only... Beer,  or Bait....

   Ah, now THAT explains all of those fishermen I see with nice shiny 
hooks!

   Tony, with beer in the fridge...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  The E-Music DIY Archive - http://aupe.phys.andrews.edu/diy_archive
-----------------------------------------------------------------------




From proteus at ugwarehouse.org  Sun Sep 24 22:46:04 2000
From: proteus at ugwarehouse.org (The Proteus)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:46:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
In-Reply-To: <20000924214726K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000924134303.27123A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org>


Not bad - but when the company you work for DOES digital synthesis chips,
it's kinda hard to sneak something like that in under the radar. 

A more feasible approach if you wanted to go the ASIC route would be to
design it in VHDL or Verilog, and then synthesize it for an FPGA. Use the
FPGA's in whatever you want - but if you ever get the cash to do an ASIC,
then you go to a vendor that will take your FPGA netlist and VHDL code,
and resynthesize it to their ASIC platform - most of these guys will do
this if you buy a large quantity (1,000 to 10,000) with no NRE - which
otherwise would be something along the lines of $50,000-$250,000 - too
rich for anyone's blood. :-)

My $0.02

The Proteus

- - - T h e  U n d e r g r o u n d  W a r e h o u s e - - -
- - - Subversive - Tools - For - A - Chaotic - Planet - - -
-  h t t p : / / w w w . u g w a r e h o u s e . o r g /  -
--<T h e  P r o t e u s>-<Musician>-<Producer>-<Engineer>--

On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Magnus Danielson wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> I just wanted to contribute to the digital DIY thread... now if you
> want to do it more ultimately you would surely want to do it in an
> ASIC, right?
> 
> Now, doing ASIC or even full custom chips is not something you do on
> your average private budget, but sometimes there comes oppertunities
> which you can't refuse... when the company you work for makes an ASIC.
> So, then you can be smart enougth to construct things so that they
> could be used for digital synthesis.... as a side effect ;)
> 
> This is evil, but it can be done. Hehehehe >:)
> 
> Now back to the regular programing...
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> 




From patchell at silcom.com  Sun Sep 24 23:19:01 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:19:01 -0700
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
References: <20000924214726K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com>

    Well, I would "NEVER" do something like that.....oh, wait, I did.
Funny how the things that are purchased for projects at work also end up
finding their way to be used in projects.....Like compilers, device
programmers, etc.  Never loose an opportunity to leverage a little more
use out of something....

    My last effort didn't work.  Tried to get them to start using AVR's at
work.  Pics won out.  Dang.

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I just wanted to contribute to the digital DIY thread... now if you
> want to do it more ultimately you would surely want to do it in an
> ASIC, right?
>
> Now, doing ASIC or even full custom chips is not something you do on
> your average private budget, but sometimes there comes oppertunities
> which you can't refuse... when the company you work for makes an ASIC.
> So, then you can be smart enougth to construct things so that they
> could be used for digital synthesis.... as a side effect ;)
>
> This is evil, but it can be done. Hehehehe >:)
>
> Now back to the regular programing...
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 24 23:24:24 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:24:24 +0200
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000924134303.27123A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org>
References: <20000924214726K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<Pine.LNX.3.96.1000924134303.27123A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org>
Message-ID: <20000924232424V.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: The Proteus <proteus at ugwarehouse.org>
Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:46:04 -0700 (PDT)

> Not bad - but when the company you work for DOES digital synthesis chips,
> it's kinda hard to sneak something like that in under the radar. 

Yeah, well... if you don't do it on professional basis you have to
take what you can, right? ;)

> A more feasible approach if you wanted to go the ASIC route would be to
> design it in VHDL or Verilog, and then synthesize it for an FPGA. Use the
> FPGA's in whatever you want - but if you ever get the cash to do an ASIC,
> then you go to a vendor that will take your FPGA netlist and VHDL code,
> and resynthesize it to their ASIC platform - most of these guys will do
> this if you buy a large quantity (1,000 to 10,000) with no NRE - which
> otherwise would be something along the lines of $50,000-$250,000 - too
> rich for anyone's blood. :-)

That depends, if you are not very bleeding edge then this migth work,
otherwise you would first of all not find an FPGA big enougth to hold
the design, then you also would like to synthesize to make best use of
the available library and process. FPGAs are so weak on memory that it
is not feasable for some designs.

Hum, ASICs is a bit of from the DIY area I guess...

Cheers,
Magnus




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Sep 24 23:57:10 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:57:10 +0200
Subject: Looking for DX7IIFD service manual
Message-ID: <20000924235710P.cfmd@swipnet.se>

Hiya!

I have a sligthly defunct DX7IIFD I just found out the other day. It
has been turned off for ages, it must have been at least several years
before that I last had it powered up. It just happend to be so that it
was covered with various papers, cards, books etc.

So, now when I turned it on it will not react on most of the switches
and I can make it to emit a single beep. Most annoying.

Well, I haven't yeat openned it up for visual check, so I don't know
if it is a really simple problem. If someone has a good hint, I
naturally take it, but I came to care for the problem of service
manual... I don't have one!

So, I know of the place with the DX7 Mark I service manual, but I have
a Mark II box, so I would like to have something actually matching the
hardware that I have.

My priority list is this:

1) Have one on paper - readable schematics!!!

2) Have one on GIF/JPG/PS/PDF being send to me - readable schematics!!

3) Have one on GIF/JPG/PS/PDF being available or made available on a
   public web-server - readable schematics!!

4) Having to bye one somewhere.

OK, if someone can help me with 1-3, please let me know. I'll hold
comments on option 4 for some while, so please dont start with
throwing me links to manual copying places, at least not yeat.

Cheers,
Magnus




From farky at ix.netcom.com  Mon Sep 25 00:10:09 2000
From: farky at ix.netcom.com (farky)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 00 15:10:09 -0700
Subject: employment
Message-ID: <200009242206.SAA05573@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

Hey people:

Thanks for all the responses to my "seeking employment" post.  It was 
very kind of everybody to share their knowledge.  I'll read anything 
anybody has to say on the topic.

toby






From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Sep 25 00:11:20 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:11:20 +0200
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
In-Reply-To: <39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com>
References: <20000924214726K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:19:01 -0700

>     Well, I would "NEVER" do something like that.....oh, wait, I did.

Well, my point is partly that even thougth nobody would admitt doing
it, it does happend. Also, it happends that when halfway through the
design you suddenly realize what you have ACTUALLY done and your
test-cases suddenly becomes more interesting ;)

> Funny how the things that are purchased for projects at work also end up
> finding their way to be used in projects.....Like compilers, device
> programmers, etc.  Never loose an opportunity to leverage a little more
> use out of something....

Actually, for some stuff an employer should not worry about them being
used for DIY activites, since this will only sharpen the
engineer. Sadly few realize this.

>     My last effort didn't work.  Tried to get them to start using AVR's at
> work.  Pics won out.  Dang.

You can't win them all, now can you?

Cheers,
Magnus




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Sep 25 05:31:29 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:31:29 -0400
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000924134303.27123A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org>
Message-ID: <39CEC711.F836B633@prodigy.net>

The FPGA is the way to go... because you can load it from eeprom and then IF
you want to change it you can any time you want. You just need to have a
hardware
archetecture with all the I/O pins you will ever need, up front. Then a PCB
layout,
(probably 4 layer will do, lotsa surface mount stuff....

And by the time you get finished you can do it all over again, because the
FPGA's you
used just went obsolete !!!

Choose ony ONE.... Beer.... or bait !!!

H^)  harry

BTW it can be very EASY to sneak things under the radar... often the
engineers are the
only ones in the corporation who actually KNOW what it is they are working
on. picture...

"<your name here>.... what's that you are working on...?"
"Its a spice simulation for a Voltage Controlled Four Pole Lo-pass Resonant
filter... I'm trying to compensate for the passband lossses as the resonance
is increased..."
"Very Good, very good.... keep up the good work !"

H^) harry

The Proteus wrote:

> Not bad - but when the company you work for DOES digital synthesis chips,
> it's kinda hard to sneak something like that in under the radar.
>
> A more feasible approach if you wanted to go the ASIC route would be to
> design it in VHDL or Verilog, and then synthesize it for an FPGA. Use the
> FPGA's in whatever you want - but if you ever get the cash to do an ASIC,
> then you go to a vendor that will take your FPGA netlist and VHDL code,
> and resynthesize it to their ASIC platform - most of these guys will do
> this if you buy a large quantity (1,000 to 10,000) with no NRE - which
> otherwise would be something along the lines of $50,000-$250,000 - too
> rich for anyone's blood. :-)
>
> My $0.02
>
> The Proteus
>
> - - - T h e  U n d e r g r o u n d  W a r e h o u s e - - -
> - - - Subversive - Tools - For - A - Chaotic - Planet - - -
> -  h t t p : / / w w w . u g w a r e h o u s e . o r g /  -
> --<T h e  P r o t e u s>-<Musician>-<Producer>-<Engineer>--
>
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > I just wanted to contribute to the digital DIY thread... now if you
> > want to do it more ultimately you would surely want to do it in an
> > ASIC, right?
> >
> > Now, doing ASIC or even full custom chips is not something you do on
> > your average private budget, but sometimes there comes oppertunities
> > which you can't refuse... when the company you work for makes an ASIC.
> > So, then you can be smart enougth to construct things so that they
> > could be used for digital synthesis.... as a side effect ;)
> >
> > This is evil, but it can be done. Hehehehe >:)
> >
> > Now back to the regular programing...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> >




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Sep 25 05:36:25 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:36:25 -0400
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
References: <20000924214726K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
		<39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com> <20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net>

I use ASIC in my synth designs everyday...

I like the "operational transconductance amplifier" ASIC a lot !!!

Now ya' wanna hear something REALLY scary...

TUBE ASICs !!!

lol
H^)

Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:19:01 -0700
>
> >     Well, I would "NEVER" do something like that.....oh, wait, I did.
>
> Well, my point is partly that even thougth nobody would admitt doing
> it, it does happend. Also, it happends that when halfway through the
> design you suddenly realize what you have ACTUALLY done and your
> test-cases suddenly becomes more interesting ;)
>
> > Funny how the things that are purchased for projects at work also end up
> > finding their way to be used in projects.....Like compilers, device
> > programmers, etc.  Never loose an opportunity to leverage a little more
> > use out of something....
>
> Actually, for some stuff an employer should not worry about them being
> used for DIY activites, since this will only sharpen the
> engineer. Sadly few realize this.
>
> >     My last effort didn't work.  Tried to get them to start using AVR's at
> > work.  Pics won out.  Dang.
>
> You can't win them all, now can you?
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus




From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Mon Sep 25 06:44:25 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:44:25 -0700
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
References: <20000924214726K.cfmd@swipnet.se><39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com> <20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <001d01c026ab$49639520$eb302bd1@rob>

Well, sorry about the pic vs. avr ordeal.. Pic still has #1 market share for
new products development and they supply huge amounts of micros. Then there
is the legalities that are still dangling around between the two..

Rob

----- Original Message -----
> From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:19:01 -0700
>
> >     My last effort didn't work.  Tried to get them to start using AVR's
at
> > work.  Pics won out.  Dang.
>





From don at till.com  Mon Sep 25 09:29:51 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:29:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
In-Reply-To: <F162P6i4w3sgT404Cfn000028f2@hotmail.com> (bnillson@hotmail.com)
Message-ID: <200009250729.AAA12639@shell9.ba.best.com>

   From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
   Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:52:25 GMT

   http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/4046.htm

Fascinating.  Of course I have some comments...

That's a lot of waveforms.  And very strange looking waveforms.

While the waveform are unusual, I think the interesting part of your
project is how the waveforms are affected by the phase modulation.

You missed the waveforms that I would have tried first; the sawtooth-
fragment (tap the signal off just one side of the capacitor) and the
triangle (the difference between the two sides of the capacitor).

I don't trust that noise generator.  Are you sure it's not triggering
electric garage doors all over your neighborhood?

It looks like your sync input is really a half-sync.  The flop inside
the 4046 keeps an internal state when the two capacitor pins are
grounded.  Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. :-)  Grounding one
capacitor pin and driving the other positive should perform a more
complete sync.

Neat stuff!

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From h.j.vanderlinden at el.utwente.nl  Mon Sep 25 10:41:17 2000
From: h.j.vanderlinden at el.utwente.nl (Heiko van der Linden)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:41:17 +0200
Subject: electrolyzing a TB-303 (weird repair story)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000924134303.27123A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org> <39CEC711.F836B633@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <002401c026cc$5f0ac8a0$7e1e5982@el.utwente.nl>

Hi all,

I had a pretty weird repair this weekend.

One of my friends has a TB-303 which got rain water inside after his roof
started leaking.
When he came home he turned on his TB-303 which functioned ok for some 5
minutes
then it went completely crazy with flashing leds on and off so he turned it
off. When he
picked it up to inspect it he saw quite a lot of water running out of it.
So he found the hole in the roof and also another synth that was exposed to
some rain
water.
So when I came around he asked me to look at his broken TB-303. I opened up
the
case and expected to find some white residue close to the microcontroller
and RAM chips
and maybe some burnt out chips due to the short-circuits that the water had
caused.
I found that the defec was indeed around the microcontroller and the RAM
chips but
instead of finding some white residues due to the rain the whole area around
the RAM chips
was covered in red residue. It looked pretty horrible.
We set out to buy some stuff to clean the pcb (ethyl alcohol and
demineralised water).
After coming back I desoldered the switch board assembly from the main
board.
(pretty cool to see the owner's face turning white ;-)
Then after desoldering one sixth of the main board I cleaned it and the red
residue was
rust. So the next thing was to check where the rust came from. And here
comes the weird
part: two of the RAM chips had both their pins 20 eaten away. Since pin 20
is the plus pole
the only thing that comes to mind is that the rain water was electrolyzed
during the 5 minute
turn-on period. This caused acid to be generated at the plus pole which in
turn attacked the
chips' pins and causing the red residue and the failure.
The reaction would be: 2H2O ----> 4H+ + 4e- + 02.
I have never seen this kind of "weird" stuff but it seems to me that it's a
good hypothesis because
only the plus pins were eaten (nothing else on the whole board).
After cleaning, resoldering the whole thing and reassembling it. I plugged
the wall wart into it and
it functioned again. And my friend became very happy again instead of
looking at the wall paper the
whole time.

Has somebody else seen this defect ? Is this common to electrical devices
that have been exposed
to water ? It must be I guess.

Greets and thanks to listening to my story (maybe we should start a
synth-diy cafe for this kind of bar talk ;-)

Heiko




From czech at Micronas.Com  Mon Sep 25 11:28:57 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:28:57 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
Message-ID: <200009250928.LAA01322@canyon.intermetall.de>

You can hide the discharge time with a single current source,
dual integrator approach. While one integrator discharges
the other charges and so on.

Just an idea.

m.c.

:::X-Envelope-Sender-Is: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (at relayer 
gecko.sbs.de)
:::From: Haible Juergen <Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de>
:::To: Don Tillman <don at till.com>
:::Cc: DIY <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
:::Subject: RE: The Magnus phase shifter
:::Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:31:07 +0200
:::
:::	>It is now. 
:::
:::Thank you ! 
:::
:::	>  The VCO uses a charge pump (!!!) to discharge the cap without any
:::	>  high frequency linearity issues.
:::
:::Yes, charge pump. The CS-80 does this as well.
:::I wonder how they fill the rather large gap of the saw reset time when
:::a triangle is created. 
:::
:::For those who are not familiar with that kind of VCO:
:::Normally the scale error that is caused by the reset time of the saw wave
:::must be compensated in the expo converter, and there ar a lot of
:::stategies to keep that time small. The Chroma and CS-80 VCOs
:::don't go for an ultra fast reset time, but the VCO concept includes a 
:::perfect compensation. At least that's who I understand it.
:::I've seen a discrete design of this from R.A.Pease, and I think National
:::still have such a chip as well.
:::
:::I wonder if ARP's HFT compensation in the Odyssey is a predecessor
:::of this as well. There's a certain amount of charge used for compensation
:::rather than a continuous current as well. (If memory serves. Was some time
:::since I last looked at Odyssey schemos.)
:::
:::JH.




From colin.fraser at calanais.com  Mon Sep 25 11:48:48 2000
From: colin.fraser at calanais.com (Fraser, Colin J)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:48:48 +0100
Subject: electrolyzing a TB-303 (weird repair story)
Message-ID: <CA369439A6D0314A919139DA6851A31297B4@CATSPG2K01.scottishpower.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Heiko van der Linden [mailto:h.j.vanderlinden at el.utwente.nl]
> Sent: 25 September 2000 09:41
> To: Synthesizer DIY List
> Subject: electrolyzing a TB-303 (weird repair story)
> 
> And here comes the weird
> part: two of the RAM chips had both their pins 20 eaten away. 
> Since pin 20
> is the plus pole
> the only thing that comes to mind is that the rain water was 
> electrolyzed
> during the 5 minute
> turn-on period. 

Remember the 303's RAM chips are always powered on as long as there are
batteries inside.
The corrosion was possibly happening over a long period anyway, and was
brought to a climax by the rain...

Colin f



From czech at Micronas.Com  Mon Sep 25 11:52:28 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:52:28 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: employment
Message-ID: <200009250952.LAA01344@canyon.intermetall.de>


:::Interviewee: Oh, yeah, yeah.  I got my BS from X State University.
:::

Uhhh, intersting. Here in Germany you get your diploma (Dipl. Ing.)
(which is -I expect- similar to MS) from University by a govermental
office therein. Ie. this is an official paper, like a 100 $ bill
or driving license. So, in order to cheat you would have to
make a false diploma (like false $ bills). Sometimes this really
happens. If they find out, you'll end up in jail (also similar
to false $ bills making).


Absolute shameless plug:

www.micronas.com (yes, I know, not very funky)

is looking for a lot of qualified Dipl. Ing, MS, Dipl. Phys., Computer
science Physics etc. etc. According to european way, a degree in science
or engineering is needed.  Don't hesitate if it is chemistry or anything
else "strange".  Concept dept. has integrated a lot of "strange" people
in the past, it is not so much your special education that matters,
but your ability to think the before unthought. And: at least for our
Design dept. diy soldering background is very much appreciated.


It is a medium/small size business, in the Black Forest, Germany.
Where France, Switzerland and Germany meet.

Certainly not the kind of shiny, high tech tv spot stuff, but once you
get accepted, you've got an incredible ammount of freedom in your job,
like nowhere else. At least that is what I experience. 30% of the staff
is french, so integration of other nationalities is no problem, this is
what we do all days.

Fluctuation rate is very low, most people stay in here until retirement!
So there seems to be a kind of positive attitude towards the company.



m.c.




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 14:29:43 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:29:43 GMT
Subject: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
Message-ID: <F171tMq4Pl2xxEud6Zw0000375e@hotmail.com>


>    http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/4046.htm
>
>Fascinating.  Of course I have some comments...

Your most wellcome.

>That's a lot of waveforms.  And very strange looking waveforms.

>While the waveform are unusual, I think the interesting part of your
>project is how the waveforms are affected by the phase modulation.

Yepp.

>You missed the waveforms that I would have tried first; the sawtooth-
>fragment (tap the signal off just one side of the capacitor) and the
>triangle (the difference between the two sides of the capacitor).

In the first case its not a miss, i just didnt found it
so interesting it sounds more like a square, but for LFO usage
it has its usage.Second there is no triangle wave available at the core, the 
core produces 90 deg outoff phase sawtooths, theroff the double frequency 
saw and triangle..

>I don't trust that noise generator.  Are you sure it's not triggering
>electric garage doors all over your neighborhood?

Your right, idont trust it either, :-) but still it was so simple
and sounded so crasy i just used it.The triggering is from
the race in the feedback loop (noise) therfor i mentioning
that to help the cirquit one could feed some analog noise into
its input.I have not tested that yet.

I have been looking for various sources of triggering,
like refrigerator, garage dor etc engine and RF sources
as triggers for the Xor and i cant find any!!

>It looks like your sync input is really a half-sync.  The flop inside
>the 4046 keeps an internal state when the two capacitor pins are
>grounded.  Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. :-)  Grounding >one 
>capacitor pin and driving the other positive should perform a >more 
>complete sync.

In the first design , no its not, in the second yes it is,
and i do mentioning in the text about pulling the
other saw to V+. :-)

>Neat stuff!
Yepp!

Reg
BJ
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From sdcurtin at lucent.com  Mon Sep 25 15:53:01 2000
From: sdcurtin at lucent.com (Curtin, Steven D (Steven))
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:53:01 -0400
Subject: employment
Message-ID: <F38185D061EBD21185F10008C7F926CE028E20C2@nj7460exch007u.ho.lucent.com>

The other part of this is, don't rely on any educational institution
entirely for your education.  I have an MFA instead of a BSEE, but I spent a
lot of time building my own stuff, and built my first three computers from
kits and boards twenty years ago.  Of course I also took a lot of computer
science and engineering classes, and worked in computer labs during college
and grad school.   Half of my resume consists of "related experience" and
lists all of the projects I took on of my own volition.  Around here at
least, this is what sets a resume apart.  Just being on this list is an
education in and of itself.   This doesn't work everywhere, many places
won't hire someone without the diploma.

Steve C

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Curtin  
Lucent Technologies Microelectronics
ph: (732)949-4404   fax: (732)949-6711
http://curtin.emf.org
sdcurtin at lucent.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------


> ----------
> From: 	Rob[SMTP:cyborg_0 at iquest.net]
> Sent: 	Saturday, September 23, 2000 1:41 AM
> To: 	farky; synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: 	Re: employment
> 
> Well, it has seemed to me that, with some 2 yr ET colleges going corporate
> they have diluted the education of a 2 yr ET degree, and some of the ppl
> who
> I have seen graduating some of the more corporate ET programs shouldn't
> have. The same thing has happened here in Indianapolis. When I started my
> ET, there were tons of ET jobs.. But, after working in the field about 3
> years I have gone back for my BSEE because I *know* if I ever lose my job
> or
> am laid off for whatever reason that I will be lucky to get an 8 bux / hr
> job with this completely lousy and now extremely undervalued ASET.
> 
> 



From debus at cityweb.de  Mon Sep 25 15:59:06 2000
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:59:06 +0200
Subject: Looking for DX7IIFD service manual
References: <20000924235710P.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39CF5A29.172CB0E5@cityweb.de>



Magnus Danielson wrote:
> 
> Hiya!
> 
> I have a sligthly defunct DX7IIFD I just found out the other day. It
> has been turned off for ages, it must have been at least several years
> before that I last had it powered up. It just happend to be so that it
> was covered with various papers, cards, books etc.
> 
> So, now when I turned it on it will not react on most of the switches
> and I can make it to emit a single beep. Most annoying.
> 
> Well, I haven't yeat openned it up for visual check, so I don't know
> if it is a really simple problem. If someone has a good hint, I
> naturally take it

Check the battery.

Ingo





From mysynth at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 16:27:37 2000
From: mysynth at hotmail.com (Dave Wilke)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:27:37 PDT
Subject: OT: employment
Message-ID: <F294dBdsnvUFcxT5nwZ000031f6@hotmail.com>

Mostly it's a matter of "being in the right place at the right time".  I've 
had two jobs as electronic tech in the LA area, both of which I landed on 
the recomendations of close friends already employed (one of these jobs was 
with Boeing working on Flight Simulators... a seriously cool job!). On paper 
I qualified for niether of them -- and that's kind of my point.  With an 
"advocate" already on the inside it's much easier to land that interview.  
Also, with the right kind of recommendation from an existing employee the 
resume becomes almost a formality.

I suggest you develop some friendships with already-employed techs.  Then 
drop hints and keep your ear to the ground.

dave


>From: farky <farky at ix.netcom.com>
>To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
>Subject: OT: employment
>Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 18:10:13 -0700
>
>Hey folks:
>
>Why is it so hard to get entry or nearly-entry level work as a tech?  I'm
>in the Seattle area, and it seems kind of weird that hardly any jobs are
>listed anyplace.  I've got a little experience and a 2-yr degree, but I
>never get responses to my resumes.  Anybody have any anecdotes about the
>business they could share?
>
>muchos gracias
>toby
>
>
>

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From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Mon Sep 25 17:04:11 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:04:11 +0100
Subject: employment
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3D6@LON-MAIL07>

>>>hey, I want to know how to make 200K a year by selling trash on ebay!<<<

that's easy, if you have access to some trash, just tell everyone it's
"collectible".......  :-)

d.




***************************************************************************
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From gendreau at rochester.rr.com  Mon Sep 25 17:56:02 2000
From: gendreau at rochester.rr.com (Dan Gendreau)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:56:02 -0400
Subject: electrolyzing a TB-303 (weird repair story)
In-Reply-To: <CA369439A6D0314A919139DA6851A31297B4@CATSPG2K01.scottishpower.com>
Message-ID: <000101c02709$1ad1f450$0a00a8c0@dan>

> Remember the 303's RAM chips are always powered on as long as there are
> batteries inside.
> The corrosion was possibly happening over a long period anyway, and was
> brought to a climax by the rain...

I agree. If the owner or a previous owner ever let batteries leak in the
unit and it sat like that for a long period of time, it is very common for
the acid vapors to accumulate as residue on the Vcc Pins of the ram chips
and corrode them. The rain water was just enough to help the acid eat
through the pins the rest of the way.

The rust was there long before the rainwater got in. If anything, it
probably helped wash out the corrosive residue. He's lucky it didn't eat
away the circuit board traces. Tell him to take better care of that
Stradivarius! :)

-Dan G.




From RMcDonald at wireone.com  Mon Sep 25 18:48:18 2000
From: RMcDonald at wireone.com (Rory McDonald)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:48:18 -0700
Subject: scared of eBay?
Message-ID: <5EF1A2A3F204F64EA51D3C8CE12822B91A5AA5@vtmsgsvr.viewtech.com>

I use eBay regularly to buy and sell. I have been doing it for about 2
years.
I have only been burnt once, by someone who never sent an item after I sent
the money.
I lost $5.00 (of course it could have been much worse- I have bought gear
for up to $600)
eBay's feedback system is supposed to help you weed out the jerks. Sometimes
it does.
If you are buying something expensive, they offer escrow service to ensure
everything goes ok.
I havent used it yet.  Myself, I restore, sell (and buy) Apple II
collectible stuff.
I bought my CS-60 on eBay, to replace the one I sold years ago after my
divorce. $250.00
but it needed some calibration work.
If any of you have an Apple II (pre-PLUS) or other Apple II related items,
email me private.
I also just sold my Proteus 2000 on eBay, but I only got my minimum reserve
price on it ($649.00)
Rory McDonald

-----Original Message-----
From: John E Blacet [mailto:blacet at monitor.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 1:36 AM
To: CHoaglin at aol.com
Cc: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
Subject: Re: employment


Hmmm, so let me get this straight. You go through dumpsters, fix up the
stuff and sell it on e-bay? And you know someone who makes $200K ayear
doing this?

I'm always interested in the unusual ways people make a living....and
getting more scared of e-bay everyday. (Although can't say I've gotten a
bad deal yet..).

Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Mon Sep 25 19:18:46 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:18:46 +0100
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3D8@LON-MAIL07>

>>>>> Thanks very much for the info offered on the Juno 106 
> >>>>> oscillator problem. As
> >>>>> I said, I know little about this synth but I'll pass the 
> > >>>>information onto my
> >>>>> friend and see if it helps. Personally, I can't see why it is 
> >>>>> necessary to
> > >>>>replace a whole oscillator module, but there ya go.
> 
>>>The module is potted in some epoxy. It is just impossible to replace a
>>>component of little hybrid.

eh? the 106 I had in bits (for ages) had a middle-sized pcb at it's left
hand end, with quite-clearly separated voice channels comprising a bunch of
discrete components and the dco's and filter chips for each voice. I don't
remember any epoxy'd stuff at all, and the duff voice chip just unsoldered-
might even have been a sil, I can't remember that either. but there wasn't
anything sealed up....
were there two versions?

d.


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From trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk  Mon Sep 25 19:55:14 2000
From: trevor at resonance.fsnet.co.uk (Trevor Page)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:55:14 +0100
Subject: electrolyzing a TB-303 (weird repair story)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000924134303.27123A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org> <39CEC711.F836B633@prodigy.net> <002401c026cc$5f0ac8a0$7e1e5982@el.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <001401c02719$c310d5e0$f056883e@trevspc>


> I had a pretty weird repair this weekend.
>
> One of my friends has a TB-303 which got rain water inside after his roof
> started leaking.
> When he came home he turned on his TB-303 which functioned ok for some 5
> minutes
> then it went completely crazy with flashing leds on and off so he turned
it
> off. When he
> picked it up to inspect it he saw quite a lot of water running out of it.
> So he found the hole in the roof and also another synth that was exposed
to
> some rain
> water.
> So when I came around he asked me to look at his broken TB-303. I opened
up
> the
> case and expected to find some white residue close to the microcontroller
> and RAM chips
> and maybe some burnt out chips due to the short-circuits that the water
had
> caused.
> I found that the defec was indeed around the microcontroller and the RAM
> chips but
> instead of finding some white residues due to the rain the whole area
around
> the RAM chips
> was covered in red residue. It looked pretty horrible.
> We set out to buy some stuff to clean the pcb (ethyl alcohol and
> demineralised water).
> After coming back I desoldered the switch board assembly from the main
> board.
> (pretty cool to see the owner's face turning white ;-)
> Then after desoldering one sixth of the main board I cleaned it and the
red
> residue was
> rust. So the next thing was to check where the rust came from. And here
> comes the weird
> part: two of the RAM chips had both their pins 20 eaten away. Since pin 20
> is the plus pole
> the only thing that comes to mind is that the rain water was electrolyzed
> during the 5 minute
> turn-on period. This caused acid to be generated at the plus pole which in
> turn attacked the
> chips' pins and causing the red residue and the failure.
> The reaction would be: 2H2O ----> 4H+ + 4e- + 02.
> I have never seen this kind of "weird" stuff but it seems to me that it's
a
> good hypothesis because
> only the plus pins were eaten (nothing else on the whole board).
> After cleaning, resoldering the whole thing and reassembling it. I plugged
> the wall wart into it and
> it functioned again. And my friend became very happy again instead of
> looking at the wall paper the
> whole time.
>
> Has somebody else seen this defect ? Is this common to electrical devices
> that have been exposed
> to water ? It must be I guess.
>
> Greets and thanks to listening to my story (maybe we should start a
> synth-diy cafe for this kind of bar talk ;-)
>
> Heiko
>
>

Quite remarkable. This is something that happens in TB303's anyway because
there's always a small current flowing through pin 20 on each RAM. Possibly
caused by the fact that they're in close proximity to the batteries
themselves? I replaced one RAM in my TB303 a while ago and recently noticed
when I opened it up that the +V pin on that IC is starting to discolour
slightly.

Trev


=========

Trevor Page BEng (Hons)




From grichter at execpc.com  Mon Sep 25 20:06:25 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:06:25 -0500
Subject: Introduction to Analog Synthesis Book
Message-ID: <200009251806.e8PI6Sc38734@pop3.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

I thought all the introductory books an analog synthesis were out of print.

This seems to be a new one I just found at amazon.com comes with an audio
CD.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3927954373/o/qid=969904221/sr=2-2/102
-7292561-6172928




From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Mon Sep 25 20:23:32 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:23:32 +0100
Subject: Another DIY oportunity
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3DA@LON-MAIL07>

>>>Junk collectors should be revered, worshipped maybe :-).  I have saved
people
> on several ocasions, because I just happened to have a "gizzmo" you just
> can't
> get anymore, and some of my other junk collector freinds have had things
> in their
> collections that have saved me.<<<
> 
and how many times do you have a big clearout, only to find a couple of
weeks later....
mostly I hate chucking stuff for this reason and because I hate waste- "if I
had time, I could make something out of this/make this work again/turn this
into....", other times, it's a mixture of sentimental attachment and knowing
that the older something gets, the more likely it is that some fool is going
to decide it's some sort of classic example of whatever the thing is. I've
always quite liked the 303, for instance; I knew how to programme patterns
into songs (tip- turn the volume down while you do it, so you don't hear the
"old" patterns as you over-write them) and so on, but I got bored with the
noise and someone offered me silly money for it. I miss it, but not that
much. now I'm holding out for a similarly inflated price-hike on revox tape
decks, while continuing to buy up wrecks to plunder for parts. and yes, I
too have rescued other peoples' busted gear using hoarded bits. typical
cancerian, I get called, but no one ever complains.

d.


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From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Mon Sep 25 20:34:49 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:34:49 +0100
Subject: The Magnus phase shifter
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3DB@LON-MAIL07>

> > A couple features I noticed: First, it can do thru-zero frequency PM.
> > By that I mean if you shift the phase backwards quickly you can
> > briefly take the frequency negative.
> 
ok, I've had all I can take of this thread. what exactly is the musical
significance of "negative frequency"? in fact, what is "negative frequency"?
I've done some fm theory (vtr's and so forth) and I know about folded
sidebands.....

d.


***************************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE

The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
be privileged.  If you are not the addressee of this e-mail you may 
not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it
in any form whatsoever.
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From proteus at ugwarehouse.org  Mon Sep 25 22:07:58 2000
From: proteus at ugwarehouse.org (The Proteus)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Introduction to Analog Synthesis Book
In-Reply-To: <200009251806.e8PI6Sc38734@pop3.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000925130601.13263A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org>


	This book is published by Wizoo - who also has an excellent
series on varoius audio topics, similar to how Ferro Technologies was akin
to MIDI in the mid 80's. I've got some copies of the Logic book, and will
be reviewing the Analog Synthesis book as soon as it comes from them. 

Prot

- - - T h e  U n d e r g r o u n d  W a r e h o u s e - - -
- - - Subversive - Tools - For - A - Chaotic - Planet - - -
-  h t t p : / / w w w . u g w a r e h o u s e . o r g /  -
--<T h e  P r o t e u s>-<Musician>-<Producer>-<Engineer>--

On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Grant Richter wrote:

> I thought all the introductory books an analog synthesis were out of print.
> 
> This seems to be a new one I just found at amazon.com comes with an audio
> CD.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3927954373/o/qid=969904221/sr=2-2/102
> -7292561-6172928
> 
> 




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Sep 25 23:10:14 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:10:14 +0200
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
In-Reply-To: <39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net>
References: <39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com>
	<20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20000925231014K.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:36:25 -0400

> I use ASIC in my synth designs everyday...
> 
> I like the "operational transconductance amplifier" ASIC a lot !!!

Nope, those are full custom. Nice try thought ;)

> Now ya' wanna hear something REALLY scary...
> 
> TUBE ASICs !!!
> 
> lol

Oooohhhh....  ROFL

Cheers,
Magnus




From patchell at silcom.com  Mon Sep 25 23:30:39 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:30:39 -0700
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
References: <39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com>
		<20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>
		<39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net> <20000925231014K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39CFC3FF.8D891D53@silcom.com>



Magnus Danielson wrote:

> From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:36:25 -0400
>
> > I use ASIC in my synth designs everyday...
> >
> > I like the "operational transconductance amplifier" ASIC a lot !!!
>
> Nope, those are full custom. Nice try thought ;)
>
> > Now ya' wanna hear something REALLY scary...
> >
> > TUBE ASICs !!!
> >
> > lol
>
> Oooohhhh....  ROFL
>

    Actually, I think it was maybe 15 years ago, I read an article on
tube integrated circuits.  Because of the small size, they could use a
cold cathode (no heater).  I cannot remember why the research was being
done, but I seem to remember that speed was one of them.  Don't know
what ever happened to the idea, never heard about it again.

>
> Cheers,
> Magnus

    -Jim





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Sep 25 23:33:04 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:33:04 +0200
Subject: electrolyzing a TB-303 (weird repair story)
In-Reply-To: <002401c026cc$5f0ac8a0$7e1e5982@el.utwente.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000924134303.27123A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org>
	<39CEC711.F836B633@prodigy.net>
	<002401c026cc$5f0ac8a0$7e1e5982@el.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <20000925233304O.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Heiko van der Linden" <h.j.vanderlinden at el.utwente.nl>
Subject: electrolyzing a TB-303 (weird repair story)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:41:17 +0200

> Hi all,

Hi there...

> Then after desoldering one sixth of the main board I cleaned it and the red
> residue was
> rust. So the next thing was to check where the rust came from. And here
> comes the weird
> part: two of the RAM chips had both their pins 20 eaten away. Since pin 20
> is the plus pole
> the only thing that comes to mind is that the rain water was electrolyzed
> during the 5 minute
> turn-on period. This caused acid to be generated at the plus pole which in
> turn attacked the
> chips' pins and causing the red residue and the failure.

Hum... if it where acid, then this TB-303 is a REAL acid-box! ;D

> The reaction would be: 2H2O ----> 4H+ + 4e- + 02.

Actually, when you do this my experience is that most metal gets eaten
away by the oxygene and little free oxygene gets away. However, not
uncommonly will a lot of hydrogen gas be emitted.

Naturally, that is my experience from trying electrolysis as a child.

> I have never seen this kind of "weird" stuff but it seems to me that it's a
> good hypothesis because
> only the plus pins were eaten (nothing else on the whole board).
> After cleaning, resoldering the whole thing and reassembling it. I plugged
> the wall wart into it and
> it functioned again. And my friend became very happy again instead of
> looking at the wall paper the
> whole time.

Ah, good that you after all where able to make it go
alive... otherwise you would have to find him a suitable forrest to go
and scream in...

> Has somebody else seen this defect ? Is this common to electrical devices
> that have been exposed
> to water ? It must be I guess.
> 
> Greets and thanks to listening to my story (maybe we should start a
> synth-diy cafe for this kind of bar talk ;-)

I think the synth-diy bar is the right name... or maybe it's the
"nigth-hour" session that you use to scare the kids with...

Hum, this story made me recall when I had to save half a studio
(including the band-machine) when it started to rain Coca-Cola
concentrate from the ceiling!!!!!

Luckilly we where able to keep the equipment away from it...

Cheers,
Magnus




From djblue at graffiti.net  Tue Sep 26 01:13:55 2000
From: djblue at graffiti.net (djblue)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:13:55 +0000
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
References: <20000924214726K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
		<39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com> <20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <39CFCE23.D8580B5C@graffiti.net>



> From: patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:19:01 -0700
> 
> >     Well, I would "NEVER" do something like that.....oh, wait, I did.

this reminds me of a story my father related to me.  He was union
rep at Coleco (Now defunct US toy manufacturer) and one of the
managers was looking over an invoice and inquired what a certain
part number was for.  They looked it up, and it was a special power
relay thing specifically designed for mobile homes/RVs; nothing that
they could use at the shop at all....  sometimes things really get
snuck around.

and on a side note, I recently re-subscribed... I had my saved mail
message from my original subscription (about a year old) and
resubscribed there.  my commands went through just fine, but no
mail... I was subscribed alright.  So I tried to post, and it
bounced, so I did a web search and here I am..  hehe... I don't
understand 5 percent of what goes on here, but I do enjoy it...
-ben



From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 01:36:40 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:36:40 GMT
Subject: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
Message-ID: <F48iAtRh3hfZFElRJp800004386@hotmail.com>

> > Hi.
>
>Hi there Bj?rn,
Who? Me? Ahh,, Hi!!'

> > Over a couple of months i have been trying to design a
> > discrete PM oscillator and still do so until it gets ready
> > for publication (if, it works well that will say) you
> > can go to:
> >
> > http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/4046.htm
>
>Ah, that looks interesting.

It sounds really interesting to!

> > This 4046 design is used as a scratch pad for the
> > discrete PM oscillator, it was also a try out
> > to se what one actually could do with the 4046 PLL.
> >
> > Some one on the list once said:
> > "One wishes that more could be done with the 4046".
> >
> > Well, i think that the 4046 is a wery nice device if
> > one takes care of what it delivers.If it was not for
> > the linearity error it would have been a damn good
> > VCO!
>
>Certainly, it has a nice twist to the reset problem, it just skips >the 
>whole reset thing ;)

Sort of!

>You seem to have some nice thing happening there dude!

Yepp, not to mentioning the discreet
one when it will work ok, i hope.

>Cheers,
>Magnus

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 01:44:52 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:44:52 GMT
Subject: Synth DIY components info page!
Message-ID: <F9004Od7tvsmR0JFW540000427f@hotmail.com>

Hi1
I have put up a info page about components for
Synth diy, its far from complete and i invite
all folks to contribute with "for everyone"
usefull component informations.

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/musicic.htm

REG
BJ

_________________________________________________________________________
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Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 01:57:19 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:57:19 GMT
Subject: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
Message-ID: <F64ElXuBLjZ9VJyQ1Iz0000337e@hotmail.com>

>    From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>

>    http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/4046.htm

>
>I don't trust that noise generator.  Are you sure it's not triggering
>electric garage doors all over your neighborhood?

Man, i got this wrong the first time, no i dont see any
garage doors going up and down while poking around with
the COS/MOS noise generator.

Partly due to that noone has any in this neighborhood.
Nor have i got any complaints of the Radioamatuer close
by this house!! :-) (but he is like a loud Italian on the radio!)


Reg
BJ
_________________________________________________________________________
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Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From Anmgq at cs.com  Tue Sep 26 01:58:11 2000
From: Anmgq at cs.com (Anmgq at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:58:11 EDT
Subject: Moog dimensions
Message-ID: <7c.b5ca560.27014093@cs.com>

Hi all!
New to the board.
Just wanted to know the Moog module dimensions. I'm starting to build my 
second modular and want to pattern the panels after the Moog system.
Thanks



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 26 02:31:12 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:31:12 +0200
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
In-Reply-To: <39CFC3FF.8D891D53@silcom.com>
References: <39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net>
	<20000925231014K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<39CFC3FF.8D891D53@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <20000926023112K.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Jim Patchell <patchell at silcom.com>
Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:30:39 -0700

> > > Now ya' wanna hear something REALLY scary...
> > >
> > > TUBE ASICs !!!
> > >
> > > lol
> >
> > Oooohhhh....  ROFL
> >
> 
>     Actually, I think it was maybe 15 years ago, I read an article on
> tube integrated circuits.  Because of the small size, they could use a
> cold cathode (no heater).  I cannot remember why the research was being
> done, but I seem to remember that speed was one of them.  Don't know
> what ever happened to the idea, never heard about it again.

Actually, it is being considered for flatpanel displays among other things.

Then you etch a sharp edge in silicon.

Yeah, consider silicon based tubes! ;)

Cheers,
Magnus




From Synthmanic at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 02:32:02 2000
From: Synthmanic at aol.com (Synthmanic at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:32:02 EDT
Subject: Moog dimensions
Message-ID: <97.b1b00d2.27014882@aol.com>

>Just wanted to know the Moog module dimensions. I'm starting to build my 
>second modular and want to pattern the panels after the Moog system.

The width is in 2.125" units the height is 8.75".
www.synthesizers.com sell blank panels with these dimensions. I am 
considering using them for my modular project.

Dave



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Tue Sep 26 02:45:15 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:45:15 +0200
Subject: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
In-Reply-To: <F48iAtRh3hfZFElRJp800004386@hotmail.com>
References: <F48iAtRh3hfZFElRJp800004386@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000926024515K.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: BJ's 4046, PM, additive waves!
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:36:40 GMT

> > > Hi.
> >
> >Hi there Bj?rn,
> Who? Me? Ahh,, Hi!!'

Yeap! You!

> >Ah, that looks interesting.
> 
> It sounds really interesting to!

Throw in a couple of samples if you got the time... just as a teaser ;)

> >Certainly, it has a nice twist to the reset problem, it just skips >the 
> >whole reset thing ;)
> 
> Sort of!

Right.

> >You seem to have some nice thing happening there dude!
> 
> Yepp, not to mentioning the discreet one when it will work ok, i hope.

Ah... more cooking on the stove.. I like that... Yum, Yum!

PS. I finally fixed my link to point to your current site...

Cheers,
Magnus



From houshu at dsp.cl.nec.co.jp  Tue Sep 26 03:16:21 2000
From: houshu at dsp.cl.nec.co.jp (Osamu Hoshuyama)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:16:21 +0900
Subject: Synth DIY components info page! 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:44:52 GMT."
             <F9004Od7tvsmR0JFW540000427f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200009260116.KAA22136@luke.dsp.cl.nec.co.jp>

Hello Bjorn,

Thank you so much for your page on synth diy components.
My contribution is correction about Japanese components.

> Date:    Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:44:52 GMT
> From:    "Bjorn Julin" <bnillson at hotmail.com>
> Hi1
> I have put up a info page about components for
> Synth diy, its far from complete and i invite
> all folks to contribute with "for everyone"
> usefull component informations.
> 
> http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/musicic.htm

I found small mistakes around Japanese transistors.
I'm not good at English but I think you can understand what I mean.

> Matshushita:
> 2SA1583: Matched NPN pair. Available from suppliers, no mention on MA
> home page?, 5pin SIL package.

Not 2SA, but 2SC1583.  It's Mitsubishi.
There is no description on their page because it's not produced now.

> 2SA783: Matched PNP pair. Available from suppliers, no mention on MA
> home page?, 5pin SIL package.

Not 783, but 798.  It's also Mitsubishi.

> 2SA1349. Matched PNP pair.

This is from Toshiba.

> XN and XP series of transistor pairs with inbuilt resistors,
> production status on all packages and types.

I guess they are Matsushita.

Regards,

- -- ---- ----------- --- --- - ----- -- --- --- - - ------ - - - --
 Osamu HOSHUYAMA          Digital Signal Processing Technology Group
                    C&C Media Research Laboratories, NEC Corporation
               Email: houshu at ccm.CL.nec.co.jp,  Fax: +81-44-856-2232
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Sep 26 04:25:53 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:25:53 -0400
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
References: <39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com>
			<20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>
			<39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net> <20000925231014K.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39CFC3FF.8D891D53@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39D00931.96D57D5A@prodigy.net>

Actually I think one of the major applications was that those tube IC's
were
"rad hard" so they were good for outer space,  atom bombs..., Death
Metal....

And tube amp flamewars ???  (only kidding guys...;^)

H^)

Jim Patchell wrote:

> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>
> > From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> > Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
> > Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:36:25 -0400
> >
> > > I use ASIC in my synth designs everyday...
> > >
> > > I like the "operational transconductance amplifier" ASIC a lot !!!
> >
> > Nope, those are full custom. Nice try thought ;)
> >
> > > Now ya' wanna hear something REALLY scary...
> > >
> > > TUBE ASICs !!!
> > >
> > > lol
> >
> > Oooohhhh....  ROFL
> >
>
>     Actually, I think it was maybe 15 years ago, I read an article on
> tube integrated circuits.  Because of the small size, they could use a
> cold cathode (no heater).  I cannot remember why the research was being
> done, but I seem to remember that speed was one of them.  Don't know
> what ever happened to the idea, never heard about it again.
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
>
>     -Jim




From patchell at silcom.com  Tue Sep 26 05:11:32 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:11:32 -0700
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
References: <39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com>
				<20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>
				<39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net> <20000925231014K.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39CFC3FF.8D891D53@silcom.com> <39D00931.96D57D5A@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39D013E3.E55D882C@silcom.com>



Harry Bissell wrote:

> Actually I think one of the major applications was that those tube IC's
> were
> "rad hard" so they were good for outer space,  atom bombs..., Death
> Metal....
>

    You hit the nail on the head, I think.  I do believe you are correct.  I
guess a synth made from a Tube Asic could literally be played....anywhere.
Concert at Three Mile Island anybody?

>
> And tube amp flamewars ???  (only kidding guys...;^)
>
> H^)
>
> Jim Patchell wrote:
>
> > Magnus Danielson wrote:
> >
> > > From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> > > Subject: Re: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
> > > Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:36:25 -0400
> > >
> > > > I use ASIC in my synth designs everyday...
> > > >
> > > > I like the "operational transconductance amplifier" ASIC a lot !!!
> > >
> > > Nope, those are full custom. Nice try thought ;)
> > >
> > > > Now ya' wanna hear something REALLY scary...
> > > >
> > > > TUBE ASICs !!!
> > > >
> > > > lol
> > >
> > > Oooohhhh....  ROFL
> > >
> >
> >     Actually, I think it was maybe 15 years ago, I read an article on
> > tube integrated circuits.  Because of the small size, they could use a
> > cold cathode (no heater).  I cannot remember why the research was being
> > done, but I seem to remember that speed was one of them.  Don't know
> > what ever happened to the idea, never heard about it again.
> >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Magnus
> >
> >     -Jim

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From mclilith at ezwv.com  Tue Sep 26 05:39:13 2000
From: mclilith at ezwv.com (Glen)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:39:13 -0400
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
In-Reply-To: <39D00931.96D57D5A@prodigy.net>
References: <39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com>
 <20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se>
 <39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net>
 <20000925231014K.cfmd@swipnet.se>
 <39CFC3FF.8D891D53@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000925233637.01f49f10@mail.ezwv.com>

At 10:25 PM 9/25/00 , you wrote:
>Actually I think one of the major applications was that those tube IC's
>were
>"rad hard" so they were good for outer space,  atom bombs..., Death
>Metal....
>


Or, maybe a Tube DAC?  :)

Later,
Glen Berry



From J.Proveniers at orga.nl  Tue Sep 26 08:22:38 2000
From: J.Proveniers at orga.nl (Jeroen Proveniers)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:22:38 +0200
Subject: Oscillator for Juno 106
Message-ID: <B17963D44143D311AE320008C7E1CD3E018CEF@EXCHANGE_OBV>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Goddard, Duncan [mailto:goddard.duncan at mtvne.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 7:19 PM
> To: 'Synth DIY'
> Subject: RE: Oscillator for Juno 106
> 
> 
> >>>>> Thanks very much for the info offered on the Juno 106 
> > >>>>> oscillator problem. As
> > >>>>> I said, I know little about this synth but I'll pass the 
> > > >>>>information onto my
> > >>>>> friend and see if it helps. Personally, I can't see why it is 
> > >>>>> necessary to
> > > >>>>replace a whole oscillator module, but there ya go.
> > 
> >>>The module is potted in some epoxy. It is just impossible 
> to replace a
> >>>component of little hybrid.
> 
> eh? the 106 I had in bits (for ages) had a middle-sized pcb 
> at it's left
> hand end, with quite-clearly separated voice channels 
> comprising a bunch of
> discrete components and the dco's and filter chips for each 
> voice. I don't
> remember any epoxy'd stuff at all, and the duff voice chip 
> just unsoldered-
> might even have been a sil, I can't remember that either. but 
> there wasn't
> anything sealed up....
> were there two versions?

I don't know, I'm no 106 expert. But I was at that musicstore where they
said the osc was gone, and the actual module (potted) was taped onto the
unit. It was not small,not big,say 1.5 by 3 inches. The unit could not be
repaired by Roland Benelux. The module is out-of-stock. Too bad, otherwise I
seriously considered buying it,altough I was looking for an MKS-50.

JJ



From adaaxs at erols.com  Tue Sep 26 08:36:45 2000
From: adaaxs at erols.com (J.G. Wong)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:36:45 -0500
Subject: Ken Stone
References: <97.b1b00d2.27014882@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39D043EC.A80734BE@erols.com>

Just in case the breakdown ost my last message.
Thank you so much for your quickness. and for sending the the extra
item.  Please let me pay you for it , I am so grateful.. The Box is
turning inyo something amazing..



G. Wong



From ka4hjh at gte.net  Tue Sep 26 08:54:15 2000
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:54:15 -0400
Subject: Another weird corrosion story
In-Reply-To: <002401c026cc$5f0ac8a0$7e1e5982@el.utwente.nl>
References:  <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000924134303.27123A-100000@falcon.ugwarehouse.org>
 <39CEC711.F836B633@prodigy.net>
 <002401c026cc$5f0ac8a0$7e1e5982@el.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <p04330100b5f5f3f9c23c@[63.28.152.58]>

The corroded 303 story reminds me of a dead laptop I have here. The 
power supply is on a separate PB board that plugs into the main 
board. When I pulled it out it had some round green & white spots of 
various sizes here and there. Obviously some oxidation has taken 
place, probably brought on by localized exposure to something 
corrosive. But except for one electrolytic cap that has a little 
corrosion around it's leads (not bulging or anything, but I didn't 
pull it out and test it) there's nothing to physically correlate the 
presence of the spots to--they don't line up with anything that could 
have leaked. And they're just here and there all over this little 
board. Nothing all on the main board half an inch away!

I don't think a UFO landed on it so what the heck happened?

If anyone's really interested I could post some pictures.


-- 
Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"



From don at till.com  Tue Sep 26 09:47:06 2000
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Negative frequency
In-Reply-To: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3DB@LON-MAIL07>
	(goddard.duncan@mtvne.com)
Message-ID: <200009260747.AAA00139@shell9.ba.best.com>

   From: "Goddard, Duncan" <goddard.duncan at mtvne.com>
   Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:34:49 +0100

   > > A couple features I noticed: First, it can do thru-zero frequency PM.
   > > By that I mean if you shift the phase backwards quickly you can
   > > briefly take the frequency negative.
   > 
   ok, I've had all I can take of this thread. what exactly is the
   musical significance of "negative frequency"? in fact, what is
   "negative frequency"?  

Negative frequency is when the wavefrom goes just as fast in the
opposite direction.  Normally that's not too exciting -- triangles,
sines and squares are exactly the same going forwards and backwards, a
sawtooth just looks upside down, and any waveform will certainly have
the same harmonic content going backwards as forwards.

The interesting stuff happens with the transistion from positive
frequency to negative frequency.  A "thru-zero VCO" will have a linear
control voltage that will let you take the waveform down to zero Hz
and then backwards.

It's *really* difficult to implement a proper thru-zero VCO in
analog.  It's easy in digital -- the DX-7 oscillators do this, and it
is used as part of FM (PM, whatever) synthesis. 

What good is it?
  It makes great FM (PM, whatever) synthesis.

  A quadrature thru-zero oscillator is important for the Bode 
  frequency shifter.  

  You can PM modulate a low frequency sine wave through zero Hz for a
  nice chorus animation effect.  (The best DX-7 organ patches do this
  to emulate a rotating speaker.)

  And DJ scratching is effectively thru-zero FM.
  "Wheekwho-wheekwho-wheekwho."  :-)

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don at till.com
http://www.till.com




From IXQY at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 10:19:11 2000
From: IXQY at aol.com (IXQY at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 04:19:11 EDT
Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth related)
Message-ID: <ce.b1001b9.2701b5ff@aol.com>


 Well, maybe not a corrosion story but perhaps the beginning of one?

 Back in the late 70's, my parents kept a metal flashlight on top of the 
refrigerator. I reached for it once and found that it was very very hot. The 
top of the fridge was warm, but the flashlight was "hot", so I don't think it 
had anything to do with the fridge. 

 After taking the flashlight apart, I found that the batteries (two C or D 
cells) had leaked and were also very hot. I asked my high school electronics 
teacher about this after it happened and his explanation was that the battery 
acid probably had a chemical reaction with the ink on the battery label.
 
 Would this be a a correct assumption?

 Thanks, I've always wondered about this....
 Andrew Sanchez







From cyborg_0 at iquest.net  Tue Sep 26 15:23:28 2000
From: cyborg_0 at iquest.net (Rob)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 06:23:28 -0700
Subject: employment
References: <200009250952.LAA01344@canyon.intermetall.de>
Message-ID: <000001c0283a$b39e8ae0$a2492bd1@rob>


----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Czech <czech at Micronas.Com>
To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: employment


> Absolute shameless plug:
>
> www.micronas.com (yes, I know, not very funky)
>
> is looking for a lot of qualified Dipl. Ing, MS, Dipl. Phys., Computer
> science Physics etc. etc. According to european way, a degree in science
> or engineering is needed.  Don't hesitate if it is chemistry or anything
> else "strange".  Concept dept. has integrated a lot of "strange" people
> in the past, it is not so much your special education that matters,
> but your ability to think the before unthought. And: at least for our
> Design dept. diy soldering background is very much appreciated.
>
>
> It is a medium/small size business, in the Black Forest, Germany.
> Where France, Switzerland and Germany meet.
>
> Certainly not the kind of shiny, high tech tv spot stuff, but once you
> get accepted, you've got an incredible ammount of freedom in your job,
> like nowhere else. At least that is what I experience. 30% of the staff
> is french, so integration of other nationalities is no problem, this is
> what we do all days.
>
> Fluctuation rate is very low, most people stay in here until retirement!
> So there seems to be a kind of positive attitude towards the company.
>

Yeah, the US used to be this way, but, for example, I work for the largest
TV manufacturer in the world and it *used* to be that you stayed until
retirement. But, nowadays, they wait until you reach a certain age and try
to get you to take an early out as the old managers retire and new managers
come in and do not want to deal with the "old-timers" who won't allow
themselves to be belittled and insulted. So out the door goes all our needed
tech and info. We usually end up hiring these guys back as consultants at
about 5 times the price just to keep operational. Somehow this is *better*
for the company, as the corporate zombies always mutter under their breath
while they are walking away from you after being confronted.

I love my job, but I am tired of managers fitting the stereotype. Having a
Korean hardliner for a boss doesn't help either. We get along, but his
management style is purely empirical, which works well in dictatorships, the
military, and prisons.

Rob





From n0nspaz at loa.com  Tue Sep 26 15:55:19 2000
From: n0nspaz at loa.com (zapsn0n)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:55:19 -0400
Subject: component layouts?
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000926095256.00b464b0@mail.loa.com>

hi all,

can anyone point me to some general online info & tips on component 
layouts, e.g. the placement of capacitors on DIY circuit boards to avoid 
crosstalk, etc etc  ?

thanks,
mark scetta




From Tim_R1 at verifone.com  Tue Sep 26 17:18:46 2000
From: Tim_R1 at verifone.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:18:46 -0700
Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth rel
	ated)
Message-ID: <614CC7C21856D1118DA30060B06B4873013C1AA9@smf-nt-mail1.nsr.hp.com>

As long as we're telling war stories....

Not quite corrosion: In a past life I was a technician working on
supercomputers. I had a number of "dog" boards that I just could not fix. Now
these boards were built using no-clean flux in a wave solder process. So out of
desperation I took some "doggies" into the head and scrubbed them under water
with a large brush. then I rinsed them with distilled water. Viola! Fixed about
2/3 of the boards. 

The moral to this story is: No-clean flux may not me.

Tim Ressel--Compliance Engineer
Hewlett-Packard
Verifone Division
3755 Atherton Rd.
Rocklin, Cal
916-630-2541  
timothy_ressel at hp.com



From czech at Micronas.Com  Tue Sep 26 17:21:32 2000
From: czech at Micronas.Com (Martin Czech)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:21:32 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: component layouts?
Message-ID: <200009261521.RAA06714@canyon.intermetall.de>

recommended reading: National app notes (Pease et al.).
Look for ADC/DAC or comparator stuff.
I got the whole app notes as a book, here and there you'll
find a lot of examples of good and bad designs.

Also (but not that much stuff) Analog Devices.

Another reasonable book is "low noise design" by...
ahhh, forgotten the name, the database is down, can't tell
you now. But I like it because it is not overly scientific,
if you know what I mean.

Ahh, there we are:

    Electronic Noise and Low Noise Design 
    by Peter J. Fish. 
    
Out of print!    

I have to have a look into:
 
    Low Noise Electronic System Design 
    by C. D. Motchenbacher, J. A. Connelly (Contributor). Hardcover (June 1993) 

as well.


m.c.

:::X-Sender: n0nspaz at mail.loa.com
:::Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:55:19 -0400
:::To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
:::From: zapsn0n <n0nspaz at loa.com>
:::Subject: component layouts?
:::
:::hi all,
:::
:::can anyone point me to some general online info & tips on component 
:::layouts, e.g. the placement of capacitors on DIY circuit boards to avoid 
:::crosstalk, etc etc  ?
:::
:::thanks,
:::mark scetta




From blacet at monitor.net  Tue Sep 26 17:22:48 2000
From: blacet at monitor.net (John E Blacet)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:22:48 +0000
Subject: WTB: MN3005
References: <20000926194046.10993.qmail@viebrock.chek.com>
Message-ID: <39D0BF48.4227@monitor.net>

Looks like it's time to buy up another load of MN3005.

If anyone in DIY land has extras to sell, let me know. We pay $20 each
for unused, properly stored, ESD protected units. Minimum 5 pcs to keep
down the paperwork.

Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From paia2720 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 17:41:30 2000
From: paia2720 at hotmail.com (Hairy Harry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:41:30 GMT
Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth related)
Message-ID: <F136xBNWep4CMxfqclw00005750@hotmail.com>

Possible but not likely.

Probable is that when the battery acid leaked, it corroded the
battery and flashlight shell and made a conductive path
shorting out the batteries, and the discharge current made them
warm.

If the shell of the flashlight was plastic, then same thing, but
all conductive material must come out of the battery...

This is real intersting stuff. I do a lot of "forensic science"
for a living. Like "What killed my machine and how can I make that
never happen again". But these usually get much more than "warm"...

H^)  harry


>From: IXQY at aol.com
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth related)
>Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 04:19:11 EDT
>
>
>  Well, maybe not a corrosion story but perhaps the beginning of one?
>
>  Back in the late 70's, my parents kept a metal flashlight on top of the
>refrigerator. I reached for it once and found that it was very very hot. 
>The
>top of the fridge was warm, but the flashlight was "hot", so I don't think 
>it
>had anything to do with the fridge.
>
>  After taking the flashlight apart, I found that the batteries (two C or D
>cells) had leaked and were also very hot. I asked my high school 
>electronics
>teacher about this after it happened and his explanation was that the 
>battery
>acid probably had a chemical reaction with the ink on the battery label.
>
>  Would this be a a correct assumption?
>
>  Thanks, I've always wondered about this....
>  Andrew Sanchez
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From patchell at silcom.com  Tue Sep 26 18:32:00 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:32:00 -0700
Subject: component layouts?
References: <4.2.0.58.20000926095256.00b464b0@mail.loa.com>
Message-ID: <39D0CF80.B08CF090@silcom.com>

    Boy, talk about opening a can of worms.....

    Bypassing is both art and science.  My rule of thumb 1st of all, 1
bypass cap, to ground, for each power supply pin.  There are exceptions to
that rule of thumb, but that is another story.  It is also best to keep the
distance between the bypass cap and the power supply pins as short as
posible.  The idea of the bypass cap is to provide current for those peak
useage times.  For analog sutff, this is not quite as critical as for high
frequency switching, but the idea is still the same.

    Another general rule, I cannot think of a case where it is posible to
have too much bypassing.

    Now, cross talk is another problem.  Even with good bypassing, you are
going to want to look at the circuit and ask, where can extraneous signals
get into things.

    In conclusion, all I can say is that this is a pretty big subject.  I
don't know of any articles on the net that cover this.  You will probably
get enough replys to make an article though1 :-)

    -Jim


zapsn0n wrote:

> hi all,
>
> can anyone point me to some general online info & tips on component
> layouts, e.g. the placement of capacitors on DIY circuit boards to avoid
> crosstalk, etc etc  ?
>
> thanks,
> mark scetta




From sdcurtin at lucent.com  Tue Sep 26 18:32:33 2000
From: sdcurtin at lucent.com (Curtin, Steven D (Steven))
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:32:33 -0400
Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth rel
	ated)
Message-ID: <F38185D061EBD21185F10008C7F926CE028E20CD@nj7460exch007u.ho.lucent.com>

A friend's son had a ZOOM guitar effects pedal that had started to act
strangely, such as not working with certain programs and outputting a
repetitive signal on others.  I took a look at the PCB and there was the
same kind of stuff you see on a corroded battery all over the pins for the
A/D and D/A parts.  This came off with alcohol but the problem came back
soon.  People familiar with cellular phone designs here say this is a common
problem as well, somehow the continuous voltage on these pins attracts this
stuff.  

The inside of the ZOOM pedal was really amazing- not a single off the shelf
part on there and all surface mount.  The pedal part of it worked by using a
single LED emitter-sensor, with a silver sticker on the pedal that changed
the angle of reflection from the emitter back to the sensor.  Neat idea.

Steve C

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Curtin  
Lucent Technologies Microelectronics
ph: (732)949-4404   fax: (732)949-6711
http://curtin.emf.org
sdcurtin at lucent.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------


> ----------
> From: 	IXQY at aol.com[SMTP:IXQY at aol.com]
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 26, 2000 4:19 AM
> To: 	synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
> Subject: 	And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth
> related)
> 
> 
>  Well, maybe not a corrosion story but perhaps the beginning of one?
> 
>  Back in the late 70's, my parents kept a metal flashlight on top of the 
> refrigerator. I reached for it once and found that it was very very hot.
> The 
> top of the fridge was warm, but the flashlight was "hot", so I don't think
> it 
> had anything to do with the fridge. 
> 
>  After taking the flashlight apart, I found that the batteries (two C or D
> 
> cells) had leaked and were also very hot. I asked my high school
> electronics 
> teacher about this after it happened and his explanation was that the
> battery 
> acid probably had a chemical reaction with the ink on the battery label.
>  
>  Would this be a a correct assumption?
> 
>  Thanks, I've always wondered about this....
>  Andrew Sanchez
> 
> 
> 
> 



From IXQY at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 18:44:36 2000
From: IXQY at aol.com (IXQY at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:44:36 EDT
Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth related)
Message-ID: <b6.b0904b6.27022c74@aol.com>


>  >From: IXQY at aol.com
>  >To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>  >Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth 
related)
>  >Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 04:19:11 EDT
>  >
>  >
>  >  Well, maybe not a corrosion story but perhaps the beginning of one?
>  >
>  >  Back in the late 70's, my parents kept a metal flashlight on top of the
>  >refrigerator. I reached for it once and found that it was very very hot. 
>  >The
>  >top of the fridge was warm, but the flashlight was "hot", so I don't 
think 
>  >it
>  >had anything to do with the fridge.
>  >
>  >  After taking the flashlight apart, I found that the batteries (two C or 
D
>  >cells) had leaked and were also very hot. I asked my high school 
>  >electronics
>  >teacher about this after it happened and his explanation was that the 
>  >battery
>  >acid probably had a chemical reaction with the ink on the battery label.
>  >
>  >  Would this be a a correct assumption?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

In a message dated 9/26/00 10:41:53 AM Central Daylight Time, 
paia2720 at hotmail.com writes:

> Possible but not likely.
>  
>  Probable is that when the battery acid leaked, it corroded the
>  battery and flashlight shell and made a conductive path
>  shorting out the batteries, and the discharge current made them
>  warm.
>  
>  If the shell of the flashlight was plastic, then same thing, but
>  all conductive material must come out of the battery...
>  
>  This is real intersting stuff. I do a lot of "forensic science"
>  for a living. Like "What killed my machine and how can I make that
>  never happen again". But these usually get much more than "warm"...
>  
>  H^)  harry  


 Hello Harry,
 I've always thought the "ink" explanation was iffy.  Thanks for the thoughts 
on this. 

 Another strange event was with an old Pioneer AM/FM receiver I've bought 
from a friend in the early 80's (one channel out now). I once forgot that I 
had the speakers unplugged and proceeded to turn the volume control way up.  
I could hear the music coming from inside the amp! This sound increased if I 
turned the volume up even more and it sounded very distorted but it was 
definitely intelligible. I've since read that this can happen if there is a 
faulty connection which will act as a rectifier, but I still find it strange 
how a rectifier can cause audio to emanate from a solid state amp. 

 Andrew Sanchez









From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Tue Sep 26 19:11:09 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:11:09 +0100
Subject: Negative frequency
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3EE@LON-MAIL07>

>>>Negative frequency is when the wavefrom goes just as fast in the
> opposite direction<<<
> 
>>>The interesting stuff happens with the transistion from positive
> frequency to negative frequency.  A "thru-zero VCO" will have a linear
> control voltage that will let you take the waveform down to zero Hz
> and then backwards.<<<
> 
>>>You can PM modulate a low frequency sine wave through zero Hz for a
>   nice chorus animation effect.  (The best DX-7 organ patches do this
>   to emulate a rotating speaker.)
>  And DJ scratching is effectively thru-zero FM.
>   "Wheekwho-wheekwho-wheekwho." <<<
> 
well, I don't know if I get it or not. why is it called "negative frequency"
when all that happens is you turn the frequency down to zero and them back
up again? the most you'll see is a phase change, surely?
and don't "real" rotary algorithms use a combination of vibrato (for doppler
effect) and pan?
sorry for being stupid, I've never come across this phenomenon before.

d. 


***************************************************************************
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The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
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From buchi at takeonetech.de  Tue Sep 26 19:28:48 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:28:48 GMT
Subject: Digital DIY in ASIC, the cheap way
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000925233637.01f49f10@mail.ezwv.com>
References: <39CE6FC5.2841C258@silcom.com> <20000925001120E.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39CEC839.2F7D741A@prodigy.net> <20000925231014K.cfmd@swipnet.se> <39CFC3FF.8D891D53@silcom.com> <4.1.20000925233637.01f49f10@mail.ezwv.com>
Message-ID: <39d2dcb2.1021612@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

>Or, maybe a Tube DAC?  :)

no kidding, i am working on this one !!!


-Michael Buchstaller



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Tue Sep 26 19:45:19 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:45:19 +0100
Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth rel
	 ated)
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3F0@LON-MAIL07>

>>>As long as we're telling war stories....<<<

ok- remember the walkman I told you about? which was fine when I put it on
in the house but misbehaved as soon as I got outdoors? there is some
evidence that atmospheric contaminants can and will build up on pcb's and be
"activated" by moisture. in the short term, this can cause misbehaiour due
to stray capacitance/resistance across adjacent tracks.
where I used to work, we had a number of "aston" tv character generators
(this is on-screen text, not virtual actors!) which would crash
intermittently, or corrupt their text output. we tried everything- leaving
their covers off, with fans pointing into them, reseating cards, replacing
chips..... eventually, we discovered that some of the non-socketed chips
were suffering from tarnishing- the silver plating on the pins and through
the boards was going brown and causing some small volt drops. so we took
them all out and put sockets in, and instituted a programme of
silver-dipping the affected chips once a month.
this was in the west-end, with powerful air conditioning, the sort that
gives you legionnaire's disease. in a normal home-studio, the effect
probably takes much longer, but I've long-since ceased to be surprised by
the condition of circuit boards older than a couple of years......

d.


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The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
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MTV Networks Europe
*****************************************************************************



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Tue Sep 26 20:04:17 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:04:17 +0100
Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth rel
	ated)
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3F4@LON-MAIL07>

>>>Probable is that when the battery acid leaked, it corroded the
> battery and flashlight shell and made a conductive path
> shorting out the batteries, and the discharge current made them
> warm.<<<
> 
another war story- while I worked at brookside, we commissioned a company
called hunting-hivolt to build a truck for location work. they build radio
trucks and so forth for the armed services. while this was going on, they
overheard us discussing the most robust cells to buy for radio microphones-
we got through tons of pp3's in those days. kodak had just started marketing
their "duracell" rival, and these guys had, by coincidence, been involved in
evaluations of their own. these included dropping the cells onto concrete
and measuring them for signs of deterioration. perhaps wisely, I have
forgotten which of the rivals failed, but the story was that barrier
material within the cell had been mechanically damaged, allowing the
constituent chemicals to mix in a less-controlled fashion than in a normal
cell. they got very hot indeed.
the same guys told us of a land-rover dropped from a 'plane; normal practice
in some situations is to parachute vehicles into battle-zones. the 'chute
failed on this occasion, and the land-rover fell over 600 feet, landing
right-way up and bursting one tyre. it was driven away.

d.


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From buchi at takeonetech.de  Tue Sep 26 20:12:42 2000
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:12:42 GMT
Subject: National LMF100 Filter IC ?
Message-ID: <39d1e713.3678771@mail.cybernet-ag.de>

Has anybody used it ? Datashett is at
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LMF100.html

Could it be used to make a VCF by adding
some simple (555) Clock ?

-Michael Buchstaller



From blacet at monitor.net  Tue Sep 26 20:20:28 2000
From: blacet at monitor.net (John E Blacet)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:20:28 +0000
Subject: National LMF100 Filter IC ?
References: <1.5.4.32.20000927003647.009e1d28@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <39D0E8C1.778A@monitor.net>

Yes, switched capacitor filters have some good points, but they have
some clock feed thru the lower audio frequencies. For example, if the
filter corner frequency is 32 Hz, then 100 X 32 = 3200 Hz. Even at
really low clock levels present in (very good) filters from say, Maxim,
or Linear Technology, the residue has to be filtered out. This can be
done by a simple VC LP tracking filter. A two pole is usually enough for
the clock. You also should use a similar filter on the input to avoid
aliasing.

For a working example of such a filter, see the Final Filtre, below:
-- 

Regards.
-------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research Music Electronics
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------
blacet at monitor.net
-------------------------
Are you on our mailing list?
http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From franko at wtvhmail.com  Tue Sep 26 21:40:46 2000
From: franko at wtvhmail.com (frank olivieri)
Date: 26 Sep 2000 19:40:46 -0000
Subject: Audio Distribution
Message-ID: <20000926194046.10993.qmail@viebrock.chek.com>

Maybe someone on the list can help me solve this 'simple' problem. I am looking for a commercial product to distribute audio from an 'audio out' on a cable tv box, to about 12 PC soundcard inputs. The catch is that it has to be able to run over CAT-5 twisted pair, so audio would be present on a jack at a users desk. I know there are lots of resources on this list and I hope someone can help. Thanks in advance...

Frank

Get you free email at http://www.wtvhmail.com



From urosuros at bits.net  Tue Sep 26 21:57:26 2000
From: urosuros at bits.net (Uros Milicevic)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:57:26 +0200
Subject: Negative frequency
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3EE@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <39D0FFA6.3BD113BE@bits.net>



"Goddard, Duncan" wrote:
> 
> >>>Negative frequency is when the wavefrom goes just as fast in the
> > opposite direction<<<
> >
> >>>The interesting stuff happens with the transistion from positive
> > frequency to negative frequency.  A "thru-zero VCO" will have a linear
> > control voltage that will let you take the waveform down to zero Hz
> > and then backwards.<<<
> >
> >>>You can PM modulate a low frequency sine wave through zero Hz for a
> >   nice chorus animation effect.  (The best DX-7 organ patches do this
> >   to emulate a rotating speaker.)
> >  And DJ scratching is effectively thru-zero FM.
> >   "Wheekwho-wheekwho-wheekwho." <<<
> >
> well, I don't know if I get it or not. why is it called "negative frequency"
> when all that happens is you turn the frequency down to zero and them back
> up again? 
There is very nice graphic on Juergen site
(http://www.synthfool.com/diy/hj.html  
 freq. shifter section ) that shows
triangle wave going thru zero . Frequency goes negative in " mathematic
domain " .
For example if you have sine that is modulated by "bipolar" heaviside (
did I spelled
this right ?)  in moment t1, you will have sin(wt) for t<t1 and sin(-wt)
for t>t1
in graph it will look like part of the function right of t1 is like
mirror image of
left part . This is what you see , and what you hear is sidebands you
usually get
with fm/pm .
Anyway , the graphic will tell you all .
cheers
uros



From ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil  Tue Sep 26 22:02:03 2000
From: ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil (Jules Ryckebusch)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:02:03 -0700
Subject: component layouts?
References: <4.2.0.58.20000926095256.00b464b0@mail.loa.com> <39D0CF80.B08CF090@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39D100BA.F7065F2D@ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil>

Ohhh Doggie! Compnent layout grounding and bypassing is always an art kinda
thing. There are some good downloadable things on it from Analog Devices web
site in their ap notes. I have found that grounding is usually the cuplrit in
most cross talk issues but being neat counts the most. I usually build "one
of's" that are bread boarded. I keep the power supply leads as short as
possible and bypass all IC's at the pins with a 10-47uf electrolytic and a .1uf
poly or ceramic cap too. On a couple occasions (Power amplifiers) I have found
the need to add additional bypass caps with in the circuit in places where a
current sink/source that was stable was needed. Another helpful thing is to
mount the PC board close to a ground plane. ie metal chassis of case etc.

Jules Ryckebusch

Jim Patchell wrote:

>     Boy, talk about opening a can of worms.....
>
>     Bypassing is both art and science.  My rule of thumb 1st of all, 1
> bypass cap, to ground, for each power supply pin.  There are exceptions to
> that rule of thumb, but that is another story.  It is also best to keep the
> distance between the bypass cap and the power supply pins as short as
> posible.  The idea of the bypass cap is to provide current for those peak
> useage times.  For analog sutff, this is not quite as critical as for high
> frequency switching, but the idea is still the same.
>
>     Another general rule, I cannot think of a case where it is posible to
> have too much bypassing.
>
>     Now, cross talk is another problem.  Even with good bypassing, you are
> going to want to look at the circuit and ask, where can extraneous signals
> get into things.
>
>     In conclusion, all I can say is that this is a pretty big subject.  I
> don't know of any articles on the net that cover this.  You will probably
> get enough replys to make an article though1 :-)
>
>     -Jim
>
> zapsn0n wrote:
>
> > hi all,
> >
> > can anyone point me to some general online info & tips on component
> > layouts, e.g. the placement of capacitors on DIY circuit boards to avoid
> > crosstalk, etc etc  ?
> >
> > thanks,
> > mark scetta




From gendreau at rochester.rr.com  Tue Sep 26 23:45:39 2000
From: gendreau at rochester.rr.com (Dan Gendreau)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:45:39 -0400
Subject: Negative frequency
In-Reply-To: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3EE@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <000301c02803$1cd0e900$0a00a8c0@dan>

> well, I don't know if I get it or not. why is it called "negative
> frequency"
> when all that happens is you turn the frequency down to zero and them back
> up again?

Think of a VCO thats being controled by a CV. Imagine moving the CV from 1V
to -1V. Youre not turning the CV down to 0 and back up. Your running it from
1V to -1V.

The VCO will harmonically the same at 1V and -1V, but the trick is that a
thru-zero VCO responds with the correct mathematical waveform even as the CV
crosses through 0V. Many VCO designs cant handle this situation and their
behavior is undefined.


> the most you'll see is a phase change, surely?

You are right. A negative CV just causes the VCO to run in reverse. And in
the case of a stationary CV this just results in a phase reversal and the
exact same harmonic content.

But when you modulate rapidly back and forth across the 0 point, say at
1kHz, you can get some unusual waveshapes and harmonic content which are not
possible when modulating back and forth across, say 2V. The harmonic content
is also drastically affected by the waveshape of the CV waveform as well.


> and don't "real" rotary algorithms use a combination of vibrato
> (for doppler effect) and pan?

The original Yamaha DX-7 was a mono FM synth. Several of the better DX-7
organ patches simulate the Hammond B3 organ sound, but not in stereo. They
did it by modulating 6 sine wave VCOs in a particular arrangement. What Don
was explaining was that the CV inputs of some of those oscillators actually
go between negative and positive CVs. This causes some VCOs to go quickly in
and out of phase with eachother causing the shimmering Hammond sound.


> sorry for being stupid, I've never come across this phenomenon before.

Youre asking very valid questions. FM synthesis is a very weird realm
compared to the standard VCO->VCF approach. The DX-7 for example has no
filters whatsoever. All the harmonic content is created purely through FMing
those 6 sine-wave VCOs.

-Dan G.




From psnow at magma.ca  Wed Sep 27 00:09:10 2000
From: psnow at magma.ca (Peter Snow)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:09:10 -0400
Subject: And yet another, another weird corrosion story (not synth related)
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3F4@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <39D11E86.9CB77AFC@magma.ca>

Ahhhhh! the good ol' Land Rover. In my mis-spent youth I owned a '52 SWB.  Box section
steel chassis, all aluminium panels,
2 litre, 4 cylinder, slow as molasses.  I never dropped it out of a plane, but that
vehicle would take you up the side of a house in low range 4WD.  
(OK, I'm exagerating about the house, but I loved it!)


Peter


"Goddard, Duncan" wrote:
> 
> >>>Probable is that when the battery acid leaked, it corroded the
> > battery and flashlight shell and made a conductive path
> > shorting out the batteries, and the discharge current made them
> > warm.<<<
> >
> another war story- while I worked at brookside, we commissioned a company
> called hunting-hivolt to build a truck for location work. they build radio
> trucks and so forth for the armed services. while this was going on, they
> overheard us discussing the most robust cells to buy for radio microphones-
> we got through tons of pp3's in those days. kodak had just started marketing
> their "duracell" rival, and these guys had, by coincidence, been involved in
> evaluations of their own. these included dropping the cells onto concrete
> and measuring them for signs of deterioration. perhaps wisely, I have
> forgotten which of the rivals failed, but the story was that barrier
> material within the cell had been mechanically damaged, allowing the
> constituent chemicals to mix in a less-controlled fashion than in a normal
> cell. they got very hot indeed.
> the same guys told us of a land-rover dropped from a 'plane; normal practice
> in some situations is to parachute vehicles into battle-zones. the 'chute
> failed on this occasion, and the land-rover fell over 600 feet, landing
> right-way up and bursting one tyre. it was driven away.
> 
> d.
> 
> ***************************************************************************
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> 
> The contents of this e-mail are confidential to the ordinary user
> of the e-mail address to which it was addressed, and may also
> be privileged.  If you are not the addressee of this e-mail you may
> not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it
> in any form whatsoever.
> If you have received this e-mail in error, please e-mail the sender
> by replying to this message.
> 
> MTV Networks Europe
> *****************************************************************************



From drtempus at home.com  Wed Sep 27 01:03:28 2000
From: drtempus at home.com (DrTempus)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:03:28 -0400
Subject: Jupiter-8 keys?
Message-ID: <39D12B40.AC921660@home.com>



Hi,

Could anyone tell me if Jupiter-8 keys are used in any other Roland
Synths? 

I'm looking to replace 17 keys on my Jupiter-8. :-(

Thanks in advance.

-Allen



From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Wed Sep 27 02:36:47 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:36:47 +1000
Subject: National LMF100 Filter IC ?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000927003647.009e1d28@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 06:12 PM 26/09/00 GMT, Michael Buchstaller wrote:
>Has anybody used it ? Datashett is at
>http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LMF100.html
>Could it be used to make a VCF by adding
>some simple (555) Clock ?
>
I think (from memory) the cutoff freq is only 1/100
of the clock freq. This might be a problem for 
somethng working across the audio band, because when it is set to
50 Hz cutoff the clock is 5K and would surely be getting into everythng.
I hope someone can tell me I am wrong, though.

paul perry Melbourne Australia




From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Wed Sep 27 02:36:48 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:36:48 +1000
Subject: component layouts?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000927003648.009e7a2c@popa.melbpc.org.au>

An 'unwanted' signal can get into the wrong part of the 
circuit in 3 ways:

1. sharing wiring to the power supply (including earth
wiring). Avoid this by 'star' wiring, that is going directly to
a common PSU point, right where th power comes from.

2. electrostatic coupling. Runs of signals 'too close'.
Solve by rearranging the layout so the offending source
is out of harms way. In emergencies, i've done sheilding
with earthed brass shim. Sometimes using sheilded wire for 
one or more connections is needed. Of course you can do cute 
things with ground planes too, but remember a chopped-up 
ground plane isn't much use anymore.

3. electromagnetic coupling. For this to occur you need a 
'transmitting' loop and a 'receiving' loop.
Imagine the notorious 555 timer.When it switches, it draws AMPS.
So if the power supply driving it forms a loop, this generates 
a magnetic pulse. Which is picked up by any part of the 
circuit that forms a loop. 
The amount of signal picked up by the loop is a function of 
it's area, and how fast the magnetic field changes.
So you can get around this by keeping 'to and fro' currents
close together, and avoiding (wherever possible) risetimes 
that are faster than necessary.

So these 3 will give food for thought.
And from them you can derive other hints, for example it is
easier for a high impedance input to pick up interference.

Those decoupling capacitors are all supplying current to 
adjacent chips so that there is no sudden pulds of current sucked 
along the power rail, which would cause a voltage drop that would
be coupled into other chips.

If you want to tawl the net for hints, search for these terms:
ground plane PCB layout noise.
If you want to get right into it search for 'ground bounce' too.

there was good stuff last time I looked. Use google.

paul perry (not an engineer) Melbourne Australia
(but, I know not to use the auto-route function on my layout prog!)

 




From BonoVox9 at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 02:40:50 2000
From: BonoVox9 at aol.com (BonoVox9 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:40:50 EDT
Subject: crumar / roland questions.
Message-ID: <b0.ad5789f.27029c12@aol.com>

Hello every body.

my sponge for brain is soaking in more and more of this synth stuff as the 
weeks pass and i have yet another set of two questions to put upon you.

I think they're pretty easy to answer, but, I can't answer them. I'm just 
asking for a little advice/opinion.

I recently purchased a Roland RS-09, and it's missing the main volume knob. 
The pot is there, but, no knob. This keyboard is from the same era as the 
sh-09, I think. The design is similar. 
What I would like to know is, if it is possible to find the volume knob that 
goes on it? Sometimes I hear about people finding parts for their TR-808 or 
whatever from Roland, so, maybe they have some of these? Or does anybody have 
one that they'd like to sell? 

Second question....

I have a crumar peformer, I've bugged you all before about it, but, I have 
another little problem. The tuning pot in the back is a piece of junk. I 
cannot get it to 440. It seems to "jump" pitches instead of glide when I turn 
it. I can get it to just about 440, and then i turn it just a little bit 
more, and the pitch just sort of jumps up a little above 440. I can't explain 
it very well. I don't think that it's dirty, I think that's just how it is. I 
wanted to ask if anybody knew if there was something I could replace it with. 
If there was a pot that would work better and would be compatible. 

If anybody has any suggestions, I would appreciate them very much.

Thank you.
Jason.



From jhaible at t-online.de  Wed Sep 27 03:04:41 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:04:41 +0200
Subject: Negative frequency
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA3EE@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <001e01c0281e$ee1298e0$57869fc1@debitel.net>

> well, I don't know if I get it or not. why is it called "negative
frequency"
> when all that happens is you turn the frequency down to zero and them back
> up again? the most you'll see is a phase change, surely?

It's like driving your car. Backward is *almost* like forward, but changing
direction all the time is an entirely different experience.

> and don't "real" rotary algorithms use a combination of vibrato (for
doppler
> effect) and pan?

The best algorithm I've come across (CLS-222) uses a combination of
vibrato (doppler effect), reverse vibrato (doppler effect of waves reflected
in cabinet), pan modulation and tremolo for treble and a combination of
vibrato reverse vibrato, frequency dependent pan modulation and tremolo
for bass.

JH.





From jhaible at t-online.de  Wed Sep 27 03:12:16 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:12:16 +0200
Subject: Negative frequency
References: <000301c02803$1cd0e900$0a00a8c0@dan>
Message-ID: <005b01c0281f$fb60dba0$57869fc1@debitel.net>

> The original Yamaha DX-7 was a mono FM synth. Several of the better DX-7
> organ patches simulate the Hammond B3 organ sound, but not in stereo. They
> did it by modulating 6 sine wave VCOs in a particular arrangement. What
Don
> was explaining was that the CV inputs of some of those oscillators
actually
> go between negative and positive CVs. This causes some VCOs to go quickly
in
> and out of phase with eachother causing the shimmering Hammond sound.

I thought Don was referring to these patches where a fixed frequency
(usually 1Hz)
oscillator serves as carrier for all the rest. The effect is very nice
indeed; the only
drawback was (if memory serves) that the operators couldn't go down below
1Hz.

JH.





From guandul at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 03:30:44 2000
From: guandul at hotmail.com (Ramón Mena)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:30:44 GMT
Subject: unsubscribe synth-diy
Message-ID: <F175LDp7mvjkO22ZhCl000051e2@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe synth-diy


Can someone tell me how to unsubscribe from the list please...
I'm just trying to receive the mailing-list in another mail-box
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From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 27 03:47:44 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:47:44 -0600
Subject: component layouts?
References: <4.2.0.58.20000926095256.00b464b0@mail.loa.com> <39D0CF80.B08CF090@silcom.com> <39D100BA.F7065F2D@ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <004001c02824$f077ca50$a95e143f@Studio1>

Good suggestions from Jules and Jim. I would add a suggestion from recent
experiences I have had working on VCO design -- include lots of ferrite
beads on the power supply lines. I divided the circuit into several circuit
blocks and ran separate power lines for each section through ferrite beads
back to a common supply input. This is the first time I have been able to
virtually eliminate switching spikes from showing up in the expo converter,
etc. This may be overkill for many applications, of course, but for critical
circuits with wide ranging voltages it really works well. It has a big
advantage over the usual technique of adding series decoupling resistors in
that the supply remains "hard" at dc, in other words, there is no shift in
supply voltage as the load current varies.

  Ian


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jules Ryckebusch" <ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil>
To: "Jim Patchell" <patchell at silcom.com>
Cc: "zapsn0n" <n0nspaz at loa.com>; <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: component layouts?


> Ohhh Doggie! Compnent layout grounding and bypassing is always an art
kinda
> thing. There are some good downloadable things on it from Analog Devices
web
> site in their ap notes. I have found that grounding is usually the cuplrit
in
> most cross talk issues but being neat counts the most. I usually build
"one
> of's" that are bread boarded. I keep the power supply leads as short as
> possible and bypass all IC's at the pins with a 10-47uf electrolytic and a
.1uf
> poly or ceramic cap too. On a couple occasions (Power amplifiers) I have
found
> the need to add additional bypass caps with in the circuit in places where
a
> current sink/source that was stable was needed. Another helpful thing is
to
> mount the PC board close to a ground plane. ie metal chassis of case etc.
>
> Jules Ryckebusch
>
> Jim Patchell wrote:
>
> >     Boy, talk about opening a can of worms.....
> >
> >     Bypassing is both art and science.  My rule of thumb 1st of all, 1
> > bypass cap, to ground, for each power supply pin.  There are exceptions
to
> > that rule of thumb, but that is another story.  It is also best to keep
the
> > distance between the bypass cap and the power supply pins as short as
> > posible.  The idea of the bypass cap is to provide current for those
peak
> > useage times.  For analog sutff, this is not quite as critical as for
high
> > frequency switching, but the idea is still the same.
> >
> >     Another general rule, I cannot think of a case where it is posible
to
> > have too much bypassing.
> >
> >     Now, cross talk is another problem.  Even with good bypassing, you
are
> > going to want to look at the circuit and ask, where can extraneous
signals
> > get into things.
> >
> >     In conclusion, all I can say is that this is a pretty big subject.
I
> > don't know of any articles on the net that cover this.  You will
probably
> > get enough replys to make an article though1 :-)
> >
> >     -Jim
> >
> > zapsn0n wrote:
> >
> > > hi all,
> > >
> > > can anyone point me to some general online info & tips on component
> > > layouts, e.g. the placement of capacitors on DIY circuit boards to
avoid
> > > crosstalk, etc etc  ?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > mark scetta
>
>




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep 27 05:32:03 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:32:03 -0700
Subject: Another Triangle VCO Idea
Message-ID: <39D16A33.F190B8A6@silcom.com>

    Well, if this isn't a new idea, well, what can I say (I seriously
doubt there are any new ideas).

    Anyway.  So far, I have built two different triangle oscilators.
The first one used a "ota" current switch (nothing new here).  The
second one was similar to one of  Ian Fritz's oscilators that used a
pair of fet switches and a current mirror (I used JFETs).  Here is my
idea for another one:

    The exponential converter would have two identical current sinks.
One would go to the input of an opamp integrator (in the usual way), the
second will go to a current mirror.  The current mirror would be set up
to source twice the current of the exponential converter.  Also, the
current mirror would be set up so that it could be turned on and off.
    So, when the current mirror is off, the current sink would suck
current out of the integrator, making the output voltage ramp up.  When
it gets to a threshold, the current mirror would be turned on.  Since it
is sourcing twice the current as the sink, the result is that the same
amount of current is now being sourced into the integrator, as was being
sunk before.  This will cause the voltage to ramp down at the same rate.

    Don't know if I will be able to try this this weekend.  If anybody
else can follow what I said, I would be interested in the results.  Or,
is this just a bad dream?

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Sep 27 05:51:03 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:51:03 -0400
Subject: component layouts?
References: <4.2.0.58.20000926095256.00b464b0@mail.loa.com> <39D0CF80.B08CF090@silcom.com> <39D100BA.F7065F2D@ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil> <004001c02824$f077ca50$a95e143f@Studio1>
Message-ID: <39D16EA7.C5B764C7@prodigy.net>

Hi Ian (and all)

Good point about ferrite beads. They are very misunderstood, but work well
in a lot of situations. Ferrite beads are about useless at audio frequencies...
but
perform very well at RF...   High frequencies do not use the center of the
copper
at all, they ride on the surface of the traces (and especially on the edges)...
The
ferrite beads act as little sponges (they add lossy impedance) that suck off
those
highs and literally "hang them out to dry".   Now if the problems are from
voltage
spikes, the fast rising edges of the spikes will contain many high harmonics,
which can
slip past some decoupling caps.  The idea is to have the filter work at all
frequencies.
So a big cap (like 1-10uF Tantalum or Aluminum Electrolytic) with good low
frequency response, and a small cap with good high frequency response (like a
.01-.1uF ceramic)
is common.  Keeping inductances down helps, as does the ferrite beads. The beads
are
most effective when put very close to where they are needed.  My latest fuzz-box
design
has two, one on the resistor lead located right at the input pin of a CA3080,
and the other
right at the Gm bias pin. This lets it work well (no losses) at audio
frequencies, but kills off
the radio reception.

Care must be taken with using combinations of capacitors and inductors... it is
possible
to make combinations that actually resonate and work worse than just caps alone.
Resistors as series elements can work just as well, but the voltage drops might
hurt here...

There is a guy who writes for Electronic Design, think its Ron Mancini... he
writes about
signal integrity issues. Usually advanced topics, but sometimes interesting.
Maybe search
those sites looking for words like "decoupling", "power distribution", etc...

H^) harry

Ian Fritz wrote:

> Good suggestions from Jules and Jim. I would add a suggestion from recent
> experiences I have had working on VCO design -- include lots of ferrite
> beads on the power supply lines. I divided the circuit into several circuit
> blocks and ran separate power lines for each section through ferrite beads
> back to a common supply input. This is the first time I have been able to
> virtually eliminate switching spikes from showing up in the expo converter,
> etc. This may be overkill for many applications, of course, but for critical
> circuits with wide ranging voltages it really works well. It has a big
> advantage over the usual technique of adding series decoupling resistors in
> that the supply remains "hard" at dc, in other words, there is no shift in
> supply voltage as the load current varies.
>
>   Ian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jules Ryckebusch" <ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil>
> To: "Jim Patchell" <patchell at silcom.com>
> Cc: "zapsn0n" <n0nspaz at loa.com>; <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: component layouts?
>
> > Ohhh Doggie! Compnent layout grounding and bypassing is always an art
> kinda
> > thing. There are some good downloadable things on it from Analog Devices
> web
> > site in their ap notes. I have found that grounding is usually the cuplrit
> in
> > most cross talk issues but being neat counts the most. I usually build
> "one
> > of's" that are bread boarded. I keep the power supply leads as short as
> > possible and bypass all IC's at the pins with a 10-47uf electrolytic and a
> .1uf
> > poly or ceramic cap too. On a couple occasions (Power amplifiers) I have
> found
> > the need to add additional bypass caps with in the circuit in places where
> a
> > current sink/source that was stable was needed. Another helpful thing is
> to
> > mount the PC board close to a ground plane. ie metal chassis of case etc.
> >
> > Jules Ryckebusch
> >
> > Jim Patchell wrote:
> >
> > >     Boy, talk about opening a can of worms.....
> > >
> > >     Bypassing is both art and science.  My rule of thumb 1st of all, 1
> > > bypass cap, to ground, for each power supply pin.  There are exceptions
> to
> > > that rule of thumb, but that is another story.  It is also best to keep
> the
> > > distance between the bypass cap and the power supply pins as short as
> > > posible.  The idea of the bypass cap is to provide current for those
> peak
> > > useage times.  For analog sutff, this is not quite as critical as for
> high
> > > frequency switching, but the idea is still the same.
> > >
> > >     Another general rule, I cannot think of a case where it is posible
> to
> > > have too much bypassing.
> > >
> > >     Now, cross talk is another problem.  Even with good bypassing, you
> are
> > > going to want to look at the circuit and ask, where can extraneous
> signals
> > > get into things.
> > >
> > >     In conclusion, all I can say is that this is a pretty big subject.
> I
> > > don't know of any articles on the net that cover this.  You will
> probably
> > > get enough replys to make an article though1 :-)
> > >
> > >     -Jim
> > >
> > > zapsn0n wrote:
> > >
> > > > hi all,
> > > >
> > > > can anyone point me to some general online info & tips on component
> > > > layouts, e.g. the placement of capacitors on DIY circuit boards to
> avoid
> > > > crosstalk, etc etc  ?
> > > >
> > > > thanks,
> > > > mark scetta
> >
> >




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Sep 27 06:14:26 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:14:26 -0400
Subject: Another Triangle VCO Idea
References: <39D16A33.F190B8A6@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39D17421.5DDB81EC@prodigy.net>

Hi Jim:

doing it with current sinks is a twist on an old National Semi Triangle VCO
method
AN74 fig. 17 for one example.   If there is a hidden weenie in this I don't
know what
it is... the resistor fed version here does not work super well, but your
current control
should fix those problems...

H^)  harry

sssh... we are hunting 'ground loops'

patchell wrote:

>     Well, if this isn't a new idea, well, what can I say (I seriously
> doubt there are any new ideas).
>
>     Anyway.  So far, I have built two different triangle oscilators.
> The first one used a "ota" current switch (nothing new here).  The
> second one was similar to one of  Ian Fritz's oscilators that used a
> pair of fet switches and a current mirror (I used JFETs).  Here is my
> idea for another one:
>
>     The exponential converter would have two identical current sinks.
> One would go to the input of an opamp integrator (in the usual way), the
> second will go to a current mirror.  The current mirror would be set up
> to source twice the current of the exponential converter.  Also, the
> current mirror would be set up so that it could be turned on and off.
>     So, when the current mirror is off, the current sink would suck
> current out of the integrator, making the output voltage ramp up.  When
> it gets to a threshold, the current mirror would be turned on.  Since it
> is sourcing twice the current as the sink, the result is that the same
> amount of current is now being sourced into the integrator, as was being
> sunk before.  This will cause the voltage to ramp down at the same rate.
>
>     Don't know if I will be able to try this this weekend.  If anybody
> else can follow what I said, I would be interested in the results.  Or,
> is this just a bad dream?
>
> --
>  -Jim
> ------------------------------------------------
> * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> *-----------------------------------------------
> *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> * You didn't pay enough!
> ------------------------------------------------




From tpaddock at seanet.com  Wed Sep 27 07:07:38 2000
From: tpaddock at seanet.com (Toby Paddock)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:07:38 -0700
Subject: old transistors photo
Message-ID: <01C02806.3118D640@dialup-209.245.165.172.Seattle1.Level3.net>

In cleaning up the garage (the...  horror), I ran across some old
transistors. 
I got them in the late 60's I think from someone who got them from 
someone who got them from someplace. 
Anyway, here is a picture if anyone is interested:

http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_m.jpg   80K
http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_l.jpg   267K

I'm guessing mostly germanium by the age and a quick 
ohmmeter check. Some may be newer parts, there is some 
obviously newer stuff in the same box.

Also, I noticed that the leads of most of them are ferrous. 
They stick to my tweezers that somehow got magnetized.

What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like? 
I think there may be some of those still hiding around here. :)

 - -- -  Toby Paddock





From tpaddock at seanet.com  Wed Sep 27 07:15:59 2000
From: tpaddock at seanet.com (Toby Paddock)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:15:59 -0700
Subject: And even yet another weird corrosion story
Message-ID: <01C02807.62BE61A0@dialup-209.245.165.172.Seattle1.Level3.net>

My first home pc was put together from used parts. It would lock up 
about 5 minutes after power up. So I grabbed can of freeze spray 
and started freezing chips on the motherboard. Nothing. Sprayed 
the whole board. Locked up. Again, again. Same same. 

It would lock up when I sprayed the board where there were no parts, 
only traces. Under a microscope I found (you guessed it) 
MINIATURE GREEN CORROSION LIKE ON A CAR BATTERY. 
There was also a scratch across the traces. 

My theory was that someone used pliers to remove the nearby 
hexnut and gouged the trace almost through. 
Voltage drop caused corrosion. The "corrosion stuff" became the 
only (not very stable) conductor.

Cleaned it, soldered a jumper across it, and eventually scrapped 
it because it was still a piece of junk.

 - -- -  Toby Paddock







From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Wed Sep 27 12:48:29 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:48:29 +0200
Subject: crumar / roland questions.
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02906EA0@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>I have a crumar peformer, I've bugged you all before about it, but,
I have 
	>another little problem. The tuning pot in the back is a piece of
junk. I 
	>cannot get it to 440. It seems to "jump" pitches instead of glide
when I turn 
	>it. I can get it to just about 440, and then i turn it just a
little bit 
	>more, and the pitch just sort of jumps up a little above 440. I
can't explain 
	>it very well. I don't think that it's dirty, I think that's just
how it is. I 
	>wanted to ask if anybody knew if there was something I could
replace it with. 
	>If there was a pot that would work better and would be compatible. 

Simply replace the pot. It's panel mounted, so anything with the right value
that fits into the hole will do. As for value, I remember it was pretty low,
like 1k or 2.5k . Measure it, get a linear pot of the same value, and
everything
should be ok. (I did this once on one of my Performers.)

JH.





From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Wed Sep 27 12:58:50 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:58:50 +0200
Subject: component layouts?
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02906EBA@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>Good suggestions from Jules and Jim. I would add a suggestion from
recent
	>experiences I have had working on VCO design -- include lots of
ferrite
	>beads on the power supply lines. I divided the circuit into several
circuit
	>blocks and ran separate power lines for each section through
ferrite beads
	>back to a common supply input. This is the first time I have been
able to
	>virtually eliminate switching spikes from showing up in the expo
converter,
	>etc. This may be overkill for many applications, of course, but for
critical
	>circuits with wide ranging voltages it really works well. It has a
big
	>advantage over the usual technique of adding series decoupling
resistors in
	>that the supply remains "hard" at dc, in other words, there is no
shift in
	>supply voltage as the load current varies.

Ferrite stuff sounds reasonable. I will try them for my next VCO.
On my most recent VCO, I've used a different method to create an "isolated"
+5V and +10V supply. See
 http://home.debitel.net/user/jhaible/jh_720_vco_core.gif
for details (upper left corner). I have not made any measurments, but
I have no problems with soft sync between 2 VCOs at all.
But admitted, Ferrite beads would be more convenient for sure.

JH.




From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Wed Sep 27 13:38:31 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:38:31 +0100
Subject: crumar / roland questions.
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA400@LON-MAIL07>

>>>I recently purchased a Roland RS-09, and it's missing the main volume
knob. 
> The pot is there, but, no knob. This keyboard is from the same era as the 
> sh-09, I think. The design is similar......<<<
> 
can't roland supply one? congrats on finding one of these under-rated
synths- they are "limited", in some views, to cheesy organ and string
sounds, have a short keyboard (is it 4 octaves even?) and no midi, but I
loved the one we had back in 1981. the chorus is great, especially since you
can run other things through it- we used it on 12-string acoustic a lot. I
wish I could find one now.

>>>I have a crumar peformer, I've bugged you all before about it, but, I
have 
> another little problem. The tuning pot in the back is a piece of junk. I 
> cannot get it to 440. It seems to "jump" pitches.....<<<
> 
I've got one of these too; again, under-rated- the strings are wonderfully
gritty and cheap-sounding, and the thing is built like a tank. I had to
replace most of the faders (it had been in a garage) but the rear tuner
gives no trouble. I reckon it probably is a dead spot on the pot; the
symptoms may be a little different than you'd expect because of how the
thing works. it's more like an organ than a synth- maybe someone else on the
list has seen the schematics or knows something about the design, but I have
a feeling that there's a master oscillator and lots of dividing circuits, at
least one for each note. this would explain the notchiness of the tuning
adjustment, especially if the pot's got a dead spot.

d.


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From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Wed Sep 27 13:39:11 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:39:11 +0200
Subject: old transistors photo
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02906F8A@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>


> http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_m.jpg   80K
> 
Those were the times ... scratch off that black paint and you got photo 
transistors ...

	>What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like? 

And, how such a selenium rectifier *smell* with real heavy overdrive !!
(Only joking)

JH.



From BonoVox9 at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 14:11:12 2000
From: BonoVox9 at aol.com (BonoVox9 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:11:12 EDT
Subject: crumar / roland questions.
Message-ID: <3c.169b29b.27033de0@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/27/00 6:45:31 AM Central Daylight Time, 
goddard.duncan at mtvne.com writes:

<< I've got one of these too; again, under-rated- the strings are wonderfully
 gritty and cheap-sounding, and the thing is built like a tank. I had to
 replace most of the faders (it had been in a garage) but the rear tuner
 gives no trouble. I reckon it probably is a dead spot on the pot; the
 symptoms may be a little different than you'd expect because of how the
 thing works. it's more like an organ than a synth- maybe someone else on the
 list has seen the schematics or knows something about the design, but I have
 a feeling that there's a master oscillator and lots of dividing circuits, at
 least one for each note. this would explain the notchiness of the tuning
 adjustment, especially if the pot's got a dead spot. >>

What did you replace the faders with? The faders that are in it are made by 
Piher. Did you replace them with another brand? I would really, very much so 
like to replace most of the faders in my performer. Mine was stored in an 
attic near Chicago IL for about 15 years. It suffered summers and winters and 
the faders are really bad. 

I've had a few people help me out with the performer, I got one and the 
string section wasn't working right and it turned out that the ensemble 
circuit wasn't getting power and someone basically troubleshooted and walked 
me through the repair. It was invaluable, and a great experience. I have 
three problems with mine still. The tuning pot, the faders and my brass 
section makes a constant, irregular static noise. The noise isn't present 
when you hear the brass through the SIGNAL output. I'm assuming the signal 
output is the brass section, completly bypassing the filters and attack and 
sustain. It's really loud, bold and clean. But, when I use the normal MAIN or 
BRASS outputs, I get the static from the brass.  I also hear a clicking noise 
with each press and release of the keys. It clicks when the key is pressed 
down, and clicks when it's released, again, only on the brass section. 

I've tried to figure out what was doing it, but, I can't. I thought that it 
was maybe a bad cap or something, but, I can't find any on the brass filter 
board. Who knows.





About the Roland RS-09 knob, I don't know if Roland can supply one, or not. I 
don't know how to go about contacting them.  It is a 4 octave keyboard. I 
wish it had CV in/out or something. It only has Gate. The crumar has Gate 
out. I wish that the crumar and roland worked with cv or something so that i 
had a better keyboard to control a pro-one with. 

thanks again
j.



From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Wed Sep 27 14:56:34 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:56:34 +0200
Subject: crumar / roland questions.
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA029070C8@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	> I've got one of these too; again, under-rated- the strings are
wonderfully
	> gritty and cheap-sounding

Wonderful strings. I have two of them and won't give them away ever.

	> it's more like an organ than a synth- maybe someone else on the
	>list has seen the schematics or knows something about the design,
but I have
	>a feeling that there's a master oscillator and lots of dividing
circuits, at
	>least one for each note.

There is one master oscillator, a TOS chip, and then the dividing / waveform
stuff, as well as the polyphonic part of the envelope, is all done in a bank
of TDA1008 chips. It's staircase waveforms, composed of rectangles from
various octaves, vaguely resembling a saw wave. This is in contrast
to other string ensembles which use more elaborate techniques to
create better saw waves.  IMO it does *not* sound good at that point
- I never liked the sound of the Brass section. 
But the strings only use these staircase waves as a raw input for a
wonderful
triple BBD chorus circuit, and this is where the magic is created. The
circuit is quite similar to the Solina's, as far as I can tell. I've put
that part
of the schemos on the web at 
http://home.debitel.net/user/jhaible/jh_Crumar_Performer_Ensemble1.gif
(Don't ask for the rest of the schemos, sorry.)

JH.




From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Wed Sep 27 15:50:55 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:50:55 +0100
Subject: crumar / roland questions.
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA402@LON-MAIL07>

>>>What did you replace the faders with? The faders that are in it are made
by 
> Piher. Did you replace them with another brand?<<<
> 
got something from RS Components that was roughly the right size and
extended the legs as necessary. it's far from ideal, as the original tops
don't fit, but I only had half of them anyway. I think the replacements were
alps but I see now that RS do piher too. they're a funny length, aren't
they? I think I used 60mm, hence the leg extensions.
the brass bit has it's own vca, tho' the triggering is shared with the
string section. I'd imagine that you've got a duff vca or a noisy op-amp in
it's vicinity. you need a 'scope and/or something to probe-and-listen at
various points on the boards and find out where the noise starts appearing.
I use a fostex powered speaker, as they seem to be indestructible, with a
cap in series with the sniffing wire. I'll have to take a look at mine when
I get home, refresh my memory what's on the back. as I recall, though,
there's an untreated output which, with the gate output, gives you the
option of external processing through a monosynth. I've never tried it; I
should. the brass output is exactly the same as what comes out of the main
mix output when the strings are muted and so anything wrong with the vcf/vca
would show up there too.

I can't remember what the gate-in on the rs09 was for....... we had this
weird hookup once, with a modified sh1000 (there was a jack on the back
which replaced the white noise with audio-in) and the "raw" output of the
rs09 went into this, through the filter/vca and back into the rs09's
audio-in. it sounded great, but I can't remember if we triggered the rs09 or
just had it droning. I think the idea was to hold a chord and trigger the
vca from a drum machine or something. someone'll know the name for that
effect in italian, no doubt   :-)

getting parts from roland (uk) is tiresome, to say the least. they have what
I would describe as a negative attitude (that's an attitude that's going
backwards  :-)) to their older products. korg are somewhere in the middle.
yamaha, on the other hand, sold me replacement parts (switchtops, keyboard
keys, a vca, some transistors) for a 1978 product (cs30) the year before
last, and for a handful of small denomination notes too.

d.


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From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep 27 15:53:05 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:53:05 -0700
Subject: Another Triangle VCO Idea
References: <39D16A33.F190B8A6@silcom.com> <39D17421.5DDB81EC@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <39D1FBC1.1325797D@silcom.com>



Harry Bissell wrote:

> Hi Jim:
>
> doing it with current sinks is a twist on an old National Semi Triangle VCO
> method
> AN74 fig. 17 for one example.   If there is a hidden weenie in this I don't
> know what
> it is... the resistor fed version here does not work super well, but your
> current control
> should fix those problems...
>

    Not familiar with that Ap Note, but, if this is the same triangle VCO that
is included in the LM324 data sheet in the national data book, yeah, the idea
is sortof the same.

    What I am hoping this circuit will give me is the same nice clean triangle
that you get when you use the OTA based current switch, without the temperature
dependence that the OTA gives you (the more you saturate the OTA, the less temp
dependence you have, but then that causes other minor problems).  The FET
switchs work pretty good, but, you get the switching signal coupled into the
triangle (charge coupling), which is pretty easy to compensate for, but it is a
tweak.

    BTW...the very first synth I built used that LM324 VCO.  Yep, it was
linear, but I felt it was a better VCO than the one that was originally used
for the Paia 2720 that apeared in radio electronics.  Sure had a lot of fun
with that stuff.

    -Jim

>
> H^)  harry
>
> sssh... we are hunting 'ground loops'
>

    Squeee....... opps, just stepped on one...

>
> patchell wrote:
>
> >     Well, if this isn't a new idea, well, what can I say (I seriously
> > doubt there are any new ideas).
> >
> >     Anyway.  So far, I have built two different triangle oscilators.
> > The first one used a "ota" current switch (nothing new here).  The
> > second one was similar to one of  Ian Fritz's oscilators that used a
> > pair of fet switches and a current mirror (I used JFETs).  Here is my
> > idea for another one:
> >
> >     The exponential converter would have two identical current sinks.
> > One would go to the input of an opamp integrator (in the usual way), the
> > second will go to a current mirror.  The current mirror would be set up
> > to source twice the current of the exponential converter.  Also, the
> > current mirror would be set up so that it could be turned on and off.
> >     So, when the current mirror is off, the current sink would suck
> > current out of the integrator, making the output voltage ramp up.  When
> > it gets to a threshold, the current mirror would be turned on.  Since it
> > is sourcing twice the current as the sink, the result is that the same
> > amount of current is now being sourced into the integrator, as was being
> > sunk before.  This will cause the voltage to ramp down at the same rate.
> >
> >     Don't know if I will be able to try this this weekend.  If anybody
> > else can follow what I said, I would be interested in the results.  Or,
> > is this just a bad dream?
> >
> > --
> >  -Jim
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> > *-----------------------------------------------
> > *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> > * You didn't pay enough!
> > ------------------------------------------------




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep 27 16:00:36 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:00:36 -0700
Subject: old transistors photo
References: <01C02806.3118D640@dialup-209.245.165.172.Seattle1.Level3.net>
Message-ID: <39D1FD84.D945029C@silcom.com>

    You got quite a mixture.  The parts in the epoxy packages are
probably pretty new.  If you got them in the 60's, they were probably
pretty contemporary at the time.  The metal cans with the pinched tops
are most likely 50's transistors.  Somewhere I have , or at least had, a
fairly complete list of transistors made from the 50's to 60's that tell
what they are.

    -Jim

Toby Paddock wrote:

> In cleaning up the garage (the...  horror), I ran across some old
> transistors.
> I got them in the late 60's I think from someone who got them from
> someone who got them from someplace.
> Anyway, here is a picture if anyone is interested:
>
> http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_m.jpg   80K
> http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_l.jpg   267K
>
> I'm guessing mostly germanium by the age and a quick
> ohmmeter check. Some may be newer parts, there is some
> obviously newer stuff in the same box.
>
> Also, I noticed that the leads of most of them are ferrous.
> They stick to my tweezers that somehow got magnetized.
>
> What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like?
> I think there may be some of those still hiding around here. :)
>
>  - -- -  Toby Paddock




From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep 27 16:21:31 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:21:31 -0700
Subject: Another Triangle VCO Idea
References: <39D16A33.F190B8A6@silcom.com> <001a01c0288c$11216e70$7a77143f@Studio1>
Message-ID: <39D2026A.7B7A52D0@silcom.com>

    I am going to have to look in the archives.  I must be getting
senile.....:-)

    I am going to try to draw up the circuit and post it tonight.

    -Jim

Ian Fritz wrote:

> Hi Jim --
>
> Just of the top of the head, it sounds like a reasonable idea. It reminds me
> a bit of the charge-pump circuit that was being discussed here this week, in
> the sense that the control current is on all the time and the "pump" current
> is only on during the down ramp.
>
>   Ian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patchell" <patchell at silcom.com>
> To: <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 9:32 PM
> Subject: Another Triangle VCO Idea
>
> >     Well, if this isn't a new idea, well, what can I say (I seriously
> > doubt there are any new ideas).
> >
> >     Anyway.  So far, I have built two different triangle oscilators.
> > The first one used a "ota" current switch (nothing new here).  The
> > second one was similar to one of  Ian Fritz's oscilators that used a
> > pair of fet switches and a current mirror (I used JFETs).  Here is my
> > idea for another one:
> >
> >     The exponential converter would have two identical current sinks.
> > One would go to the input of an opamp integrator (in the usual way), the
> > second will go to a current mirror.  The current mirror would be set up
> > to source twice the current of the exponential converter.  Also, the
> > current mirror would be set up so that it could be turned on and off.
> >     So, when the current mirror is off, the current sink would suck
> > current out of the integrator, making the output voltage ramp up.  When
> > it gets to a threshold, the current mirror would be turned on.  Since it
> > is sourcing twice the current as the sink, the result is that the same
> > amount of current is now being sourced into the integrator, as was being
> > sunk before.  This will cause the voltage to ramp down at the same rate.
> >
> >     Don't know if I will be able to try this this weekend.  If anybody
> > else can follow what I said, I would be interested in the results.  Or,
> > is this just a bad dream?
> >
> > --
> >  -Jim
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> > *-----------------------------------------------
> > *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> > * You didn't pay enough!
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >




From mysynth at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 17:26:18 2000
From: mysynth at hotmail.com (Dave Wilke)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:26:18 PDT
Subject: PCB Vendors?
Message-ID: <F307BHy3SpwBGpEI2rV00000a19@hotmail.com>

I know this is mildly OT, so my apologies up front...

Does anyone know a reputable PCB vendor in the Los Angeles area?  I need to 
be able to submit a schematic/netlist and have them do a layout and etch the 
board (probably 2 sided).  It would be a run of only about 10 cards, sized 
6"x4".

The project is a digital audio playback unit which will interface with an 
ancient Gould computer.  No synths this time :-( ...but at least it's audio!

Any help would be 'perciated,
dave
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From gendreau at rochester.rr.com  Wed Sep 27 18:36:51 2000
From: gendreau at rochester.rr.com (Dan Gendreau)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:36:51 -0400
Subject: DX-7 E! upgrade clone
Message-ID: <000101c028a1$2380e770$0a00a8c0@dan>

I am not affiliated with The Old Crow, but I thought I would give his DX-7
E! clone a quick plug here.

I had heard mumblings of him working on an DX-7 E! clone on synthdiy a few
months ago, but I was surprised last night to discover that he was already
selling assembled E! clones for $75. He is planning a DX-7II E! clone next.

The kit is at:
http://www.oldcrows.net/~dx7/dx_re.html
and he takes paypal payments if you email him.

-Dan G.




From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Sep 27 18:53:37 2000
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Tony Allgood)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:53:37 +0100
Subject: crumar / roland questions.
References: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA400@LON-MAIL07>
Message-ID: <00eb01c028a6$b0470360$dd50883e@default>

>... congrats on finding one of these under-rated synths...

I sold mine for 40 quid a fair few years ago. Blast! The chorus was one
of the best I have heard. When I get the time I am going to have a go at
building the Polysix's one.

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, England

Modular synth circuits, TB303 clone and Filter Rack
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan






From patchell at silcom.com  Wed Sep 27 19:13:18 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:13:18 -0700
Subject: PCB Vendors?
References: <F307BHy3SpwBGpEI2rV00000a19@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39D22AAE.C4978F05@silcom.com>



Dave Wilke wrote:

> I know this is mildly OT, so my apologies up front...
>
> Does anyone know a reputable PCB vendor in the Los Angeles area?  I need to
> be able to submit a schematic/netlist and have them do a layout and etch the
> board (probably 2 sided).  It would be a run of only about 10 cards, sized
> 6"x4".
>

    Having somebody else do a PCB layout is risky business.  If I was you, I
would get myself a PCB layout program and do that part myself.  As far as PCB
people, in LA, you have lots of choices.  Multi Layer Prototypes (MPI) is one
that I have used down their, but I don't know how good their pricing is.  You
should be able to just open up the phone book.  You can also give some of the
web based vendors a try.  I am sure you will get pleanty of suggestions for PCB
people.

    If you are willing to talk to somebody north of you, I have been very happy
with Pacific Coast Circuits.  They are located in San Luis Obispo.  They have
made some hube two layer boards for me and did a very good job (10x15 inch
boards are not easy).

>

    -Jim






From musik at tcsn.net  Wed Sep 27 21:24:54 2000
From: musik at tcsn.net (Ron Yost)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:24:54 -0700
Subject: PCB vendors .. Pacific West Circuits
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000927121833.00adf550@mail.tcsn.net>

Hi.

The name is actually Pacific West Circuits, Inc. :)

In any case, here's their website:

http://cyber-pages.com/agate/index.html

Their address:

Pacific West Circuits, Inc.
189 Granada Dr.
San Luis Obispo, CA 93401-7317

Tel: (805) 544-4881

Email: paccoci at pwcircuits.com  (not sure if this is current)

Ron




From djblue at graffiti.net  Wed Sep 27 23:40:48 2000
From: djblue at graffiti.net (djblue)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:40:48 +0000
Subject: Polysix, Juno-106, TR-707
Message-ID: <39D25B50.E846DCC1@graffiti.net>


So I have a sick Polysix, a semi-sick Juno-106, and a semi-sick 707
that needs to be modded.

1. Polysix.... (no, the battery is fine, I already did that) it will
only save patches in A-B-C-D 5,6 and 7,8 (total of 8 patches I
think)  maybe it's 5, 6, 7, 8 (for 16 patches) but that's about all
that's wrong...   I have schematics, but have no idea what I'm
looking at.

2. Juno-106  The Bender section is fucked.  the only thing that
works properly is the Portamento On/Off Switch.  The sliders are
kinda gritty but work okay, the volume is stuck (tried everything,
got it working with some pliers, but wouldn't go without them, and
then I broke off part of the spline. (whoops)  the portamento pot is
even worse (don't ask), and the Pitchbend is broken as well (right
where it bends), but I think some thin lexan and some epoxy will fix
that up...

3.  TR-707  Simply put, no midi.  If I put it into the midi receive
it locks up, and it stays there until I shut it off, but yet it
doesn't acknowledge midi or send it (I tested the rest with my other
drum machine, all is good) the problem is in the 707.  any
suggestions?  I haven't even started to mess with it yet.  As for
mods, I plan on putting normal-on momentary switches inline with all
of the faders (or outputs, whichever) so that I can instantly cut
off sounds, and not have to fade them in and out.  that's easy.  but
when it was open I saw some little pots in there and several
sections were labeled as to what they were for, so I hooked it up,
and started twisting, and licking the finger and pressing, but I
couldn't find anything good.  I searched the net for info, but found
none...

any help on any of these things would be great.
-ben



From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Thu Sep 28 01:26:06 2000
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Schmitz)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:26:06 +0200
Subject: Website update.
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000928012606.00a6d320@mailin.uni-bonn.de>

Hi all, 

I've put up a new circuit to my website. 

A vacuum tube VCF! Tasty sound. 
Check out:
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/vtvcf.html

Bye,
 Ren?

 
-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159

 




From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 28 03:10:40 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:10:40 -0600
Subject: employment
References: <200009250952.LAA01344@canyon.intermetall.de> <000001c0283a$b39e8ae0$a2492bd1@rob>
Message-ID: <004801c028e8$edc44300$1057143f@Studio1>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob" <cyborg_0 at iquest.net>

> But, nowadays, they wait until you reach a certain age and try
> to get you to take an early out as the old managers retire and new
managers
> come in and do not want to deal with the "old-timers" who won't allow
> themselves to be belittled and insulted. So out the door goes all our
needed
> tech and info. We usually end up hiring these guys back as consultants at
> about 5 times the price just to keep operational. Somehow this is *better*
> for the company, as the corporate zombies always mutter under their breath
> while they are walking away from you after being confronted.

You nailed that one, Rob. As an old-timer who just got the sh!t belittled
and insulted out of him, I'm about to try the same game. Wish me luck!

  Ian





From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 28 03:15:18 2000
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:15:18 -0600
Subject: component layouts?
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02906EBA@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <005301c028e9$927eac00$1057143f@Studio1>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Haible Juergen" <Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de>
To: "Ian Fritz" <ijfritz at earthlink.net>; "Jules Ryckebusch"
<ryckebu at ersg.san.mrms.navy.mil>; "Jim Patchell" <patchell at silcom.com>
Cc: "zapsn0n" <n0nspaz at loa.com>; <synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 4:58 AM
Subject: RE: component layouts?
>
> Ferrite stuff sounds reasonable. I will try them for my next VCO.
> On my most recent VCO, I've used a different method to create an
"isolated"
> +5V and +10V supply. See
>  http://home.debitel.net/user/jhaible/jh_720_vco_core.gif
> for details (upper left corner). I have not made any measurments, but
> I have no problems with soft sync between 2 VCOs at all.
> But admitted, Ferrite beads would be more convenient for sure.
>
> JH.
>
>

Well, often decoupling through isolated supplies is a good approach,
especially if you want a regulated sub-voltage anyway for other reasons.

  Ian




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Thu Sep 28 03:17:55 2000
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:17:55 -0400
Subject: old transistors photo
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02906F8A@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
Message-ID: <39D29C42.A6E75923@prodigy.net>

 >What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like?

<blonde mode on>

uhhh....  distorted ???

<bmo>

H^)

Haible Juergen wrote:

> > http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_m.jpg   80K
> >
> Those were the times ... scratch off that black paint and you got photo
> transistors ...
>
>         >What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like?
>
> And, how such a selenium rectifier *smell* with real heavy overdrive !!
> (Only joking)
>
> JH.




From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Thu Sep 28 03:43:48 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (terry michaels)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:43:48 -0400
Subject: old transistors photo
Message-ID: <200009272143_MC2-B4F0-DD16@compuserve.com>


>Toby Paddock wrote:

> In cleaning up the garage (the...  horror), I ran across some old
> transistors.
> I got them in the late 60's I think from someone who got them from
> someone who got them from someplace.
> Anyway, here is a picture if anyone is interested:
>
> http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_m.jpg   80K
> http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_l.jpg   267K
>
> I'm guessing mostly germanium by the age and a quick
> ohmmeter check. Some may be newer parts, there is some
> obviously newer stuff in the same box.
>
> Also, I noticed that the leads of most of them are ferrous.
> They stick to my tweezers that somehow got magnetized.
>
> What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like?
> I think there may be some of those still hiding around here. :)
>
>  - -- -  Toby Paddock<

Hi Toby:

The two  rectangular black transistors with the clear plastic base in the
upper right corner of the photo appear to be the Raytheon CK722.  That was
the first transistor intended for the hobbyist market, and was popular in
the early '50s.  A detailed history of this device is available at:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Campus/4724/index.html

BTW, I sold a CK722 on Ebay for $40.00 last year, a good example of a
"collectible" type item.

Terry Michaels



From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Sep 28 03:45:00 2000
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:45:00 +0200
Subject: old transistors photo
In-Reply-To: <39D29C42.A6E75923@prodigy.net>
References: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA02906F8A@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>
	<39D29C42.A6E75923@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20000928034500J.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Harry Bissell <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: old transistors photo
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:17:55 -0400

>  >What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like?

Note: These selenium rectifiers is sitting all over the place. They
have been used in elevators way before someone even knew what
semiconductors where (seriously!!!).

> <blonde mode on>
> 
> uhhh....  distorted ???
> 
> <bmo>

ROFL!!!

Cheers,
Magnus




From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Thu Sep 28 04:05:35 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (terry michaels)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:05:35 -0400
Subject: Negative frequency
Message-ID: <200009272205_MC2-B4F0-DDDF@compuserve.com>

Message text written by "Goddard, Duncan"
>well, I don't know if I get it or not. why is it called "negative
frequency"
when all that happens is you turn the frequency down to zero and them back
up again? the most you'll see is a phase change, surely?
and don't "real" rotary algorithms use a combination of vibrato (for
doppler
effect) and pan?
sorry for being stupid, I've never come across this phenomenon before.

d. <

Hi Duncan:

I dealt with the concept of negative frequency a few years back when I
designed am image rotator for laser graphics displays.  It consisted of a
matrix of 4 analog multipliers that manipulate the X and Y values of a
raster scanned image, the goal was to be able to rotate an image projected
on a screen in the Z axis.  Another was to describe is is if you had a
photo laying on a desk, and you rotated the photo in the horizontal plane,
leaving it laying flat on the desk.  In order to do this I built a sine
wave oscillator with sine / cosine (quadrature) outputs.  It was commanded
with a single control voltage pot, turning the pot to the right caused the
image to rotate to the right faster and faster, turning the pot to the left
caused the image to rotate to the left.  When the pot was centered, the
image would more or less hold in one orientation, you can smoothly start
rotation either way by turning the pot one way or the other.  The
quadrature oscillator went smoothly through zero, there were no glitches or
switching points.  This was a good visual example of through zero
oscillation.

The oscillator circuit was fairly simple, it was your basic OTA switch
driving an integrator with 2 comparators setting the triangle peak levels,
except it used two CA3080's with the inputs cross connected, supplied by
differential currents.  The sine / cosine function was done with two Analog
Devices AD639 trig function chips, they work great, but are rather
expensive.

Terry Michaels




From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 28 05:13:55 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:13:55 -0700
Subject: Website update.
References: <3.0.5.32.20000928012606.00a6d320@mailin.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <39D2B773.17F9D327@silcom.com>

    Maybe this is a pretty naive question, and please remember, I have
never used tubes in anything, so I might be ignorant......

    Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the screen grid on a pentode
tube vary the transconductance of the tube?  Seems like there should be
someway of exploiting that to tune a tube based filter.

Ren? Schmitz wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've put up a new circuit to my website.
>
> A vacuum tube VCF! Tasty sound.
> Check out:
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/vtvcf.html
>
> Bye,
>  Ren?
>
>
> --
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>
>

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 28 05:21:53 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:21:53 -0700
Subject: old transistors photo
References: <200009272143_MC2-B4F0-DD16@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <39D2B951.C79E88BF@silcom.com>



terry michaels wrote:

> >Toby Paddock wrote:
>
> > In cleaning up the garage (the...  horror), I ran across some old
> > transistors.
> > I got them in the late 60's I think from someone who got them from
> > someone who got them from someplace.
> > Anyway, here is a picture if anyone is interested:
> >
> > http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_m.jpg   80K
> > http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_l.jpg   267K
> >
> > I'm guessing mostly germanium by the age and a quick
> > ohmmeter check. Some may be newer parts, there is some
> > obviously newer stuff in the same box.
> >
> > Also, I noticed that the leads of most of them are ferrous.
> > They stick to my tweezers that somehow got magnetized.
> >
> > What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like?
> > I think there may be some of those still hiding around here. :)
> >
> >  - -- -  Toby Paddock<
>
> Hi Toby:
>
> The two  rectangular black transistors with the clear plastic base in the
> upper right corner of the photo appear to be the Raytheon CK722.  That was
> the first transistor intended for the hobbyist market, and was popular in
> the early '50s.  A detailed history of this device is available at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Campus/4724/index.html
>
> BTW, I sold a CK722 on Ebay for $40.00 last year, a good example of a
> "collectible" type item.
>
> Terry Michaels

    Please tell me that you are lying.  Tell me that is a big fib! :-)

    I was given a transistor radio back in the late 60's that was made
sometime in the 50's.  It was about the size of a lunchbox.  It was
constructed like a tube radio, point to point wiring, the transistors were in
sockets.  Some of them were Ck722's.  I remember that because it was the first
time I had ever seen a real one.  There were a couple of other types in there
as well.  I threw the radio away!  One of the few times I threw a piece of
junk away.  I kind of wonder if the thing would have actually been worth
anything these days.

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 28 05:31:54 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:31:54 -0700
Subject: Can't decide what to do with recent aquisition
Message-ID: <39D2BBAA.28453E50@silcom.com>

    Today, I was given an old VME card cage.  The chassis and card cage
is what I wanted.  Inside of the box is a standard VME backplane, a wire
wrap VME backplane, and three VME (4u?) Mupac wire wrap cards.  I hate
to give this stuff away (the VME cards that is), but, somehow, I
seriously doubt I will ever find a use for them.  The Mupac cards are
"very" nice.  I have purchased Mupac wirewrap panels in the past (for
projects at places I have worked), and they are not cheap.

    The back planes are 18 or 19 slots, I think.  The dimensions on the
3 wire wrap cards is about 9"x8" (very aproximate guess here, should
give you an idea of their exact size, they are standard VME cards with
two VME connectors).  Two of the cards have a lot of static ram chips on
them.  They apear to be 4 bits wide, I would guess 16K words.  Part
Number MT5C256I-45.

    Anybody interested?  I will let them go basically for shipping.
$20->$30.

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From skin_job at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 05:58:54 2000
From: skin_job at hotmail.com (skinny bastard)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:58:54 GMT
Subject: OT: Help! Keyboard Problems
Message-ID: <F270pTljBOh8s4KWiGt000048c1@hotmail.com>

i'm_typing_this_with_no_spaces_because_my_gateway_keyboard_got_spilled_on._i_called_their_customer_service,_and_they_want_to_charge_50.00_for_a_new_one._I've_had_this_problem_before,_and_fixed_it_by_cleaning_the_contacts._This_time_they_look_oxidized._What_should_I_use_to_clean_them?_They're_just_contact_traces_on_clear_plastic_film.

Help!!_I_can't_write_a_'c'_'s'_or_a_space_without_copying_and_pasting!!

James



wrote:
>
> > >Toby Paddock wrote:
> >
> > > In cleaning up the garage (the...  horror), I ran across some old
> > > transistors.
> > > I got them in the late 60's I think from someone who got them from
> > > someone who got them from someplace.
> > > Anyway, here is a picture if anyone is interested:
> > >
> > > http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_m.jpg   80K
> > > http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_l.jpg   267K
> > >
> > > I'm guessing mostly germanium by the age and a quick
> > > ohmmeter check. Some may be newer parts, there is some
> > > obviously newer stuff in the same box.
> > >
> > > Also, I noticed that the leads of most of them are ferrous.
> > > They stick to my tweezers that somehow got magnetized.
> > >
> > > What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like?
> > > I think there may be some of those still hiding around here. :)
> > >
> > >  - -- -  Toby Paddock<
> >
> > Hi Toby:
> >
> > The two  rectangular black transistors with the clear plastic base in 
>the
> > upper right corner of the photo appear to be the Raytheon CK722.  That 
>was
> > the first transistor intended for the hobbyist market, and was popular 
>in
> > the early '50s.  A detailed history of this device is available at:
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Campus/4724/index.html
> >
> > BTW, I sold a CK722 on Ebay for $40.00 last year, a good example of a
> > "collectible" type item.
> >
> > Terry Michaels
>
>     Please tell me that you are lying.  Tell me that is a big fib! :-)
>
>     I was given a transistor radio back in the late 60's that was made
>sometime in the 50's.  It was about the size of a lunchbox.  It was
>constructed like a tube radio, point to point wiring, the transistors were 
>in
>sockets.  Some of them were Ck722's.  I remember that because it was the 
>first
>time I had ever seen a real one.  There were a couple of other types in 
>there
>as well.  I threw the radio away!  One of the few times I threw a piece of
>junk away.  I kind of wonder if the thing would have actually been worth
>anything these days.
>
>--
>  -Jim
>------------------------------------------------
>* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
>*-----------------------------------------------
>*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
>* You didn't pay enough!
>------------------------------------------------
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.




From Anmgq at cs.com  Thu Sep 28 06:06:27 2000
From: Anmgq at cs.com (Anmgq at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:06:27 EDT
Subject: MAXX Modules?
Message-ID: <84.b4ed3b7.27041dc3@cs.com>

has anybody out there built any of the MAXX modules given by Tom at 
Electronics For Music web site? They look very interesting and inexpensive. 
If you have I would like a little input as to the potential of the circuits.
Thanks
John



From Stephen_Gray at blick.co.uk  Thu Sep 28 13:36:27 2000
From: Stephen_Gray at blick.co.uk (Stephen_Gray at blick.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:36:27 +0100
Subject: Mounting Racks - UK
Message-ID: <OFC560A582.ED4BB7B9-ON80256968.003F3F0B@blick.co.uk>

Now I have made a budget of parts I need, the only item I am having
problems in pricing up is a cheap rackmount type system for the items I
will be building.  I don't know sizes etc yet.  Does anyone know of a
source of these so I could price them up ?

Steve Gray


__________________________________________
This  communication, and the contents of any attached file, is intended for
the  addressee  only  and  may  be  confidential and/or contain information
subject  to  legal  privilege  and is for the use of the intended recipient
only.   It must not be disclosed or re-transmitted to anyone other than the
intended  recipient.  If  it  has  been received in error please notify the
sender immediately and permanently delete the e-mail.





From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Thu Sep 28 13:52:53 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:52:53 +0200
Subject: Website update.
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA0294773D@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

	>A vacuum tube VCF! Tasty sound. 
	>Check out:
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/vtvcf.html
> 
Nice ! A Borg Assimilator Cube ! - sorry:  Borg Assimilator Tube.

I'm sure it sounds better than the various Korg versions with
diode limiters.
Which tube performs the limiting at high resonance ? Or
is it the transformer ? Have you tried a transformerless version
as well ? 

ECC83's for the triodes would work as well ?

Ah ... reading on ... there is some text as well ... making things
clearer. An ordinary 50Hz transformer ? I flinched, but then I read
about the Moog-like HP feedback - that's it! One of these tiny
pcb mount transformers ? 

Final question: as you have a transformer anyway, you can do
phase inversion with the transformer and might get along with
one tube stage ? Would that be possible ?

Congrats - that's the most interesting VCF I've seen for a long time !

JH.





From jimh54 at onebox.com  Thu Sep 28 13:55:12 2000
From: jimh54 at onebox.com (James Holloway)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:55:12 -0500
Subject: Bad Trader Alert- Warning
Message-ID: <20000928115512.KQCE321.mta03.onebox.com@onebox.com>

I bought A copy of The Allen Strange book "Electronic Music..." from
SYNTHESIZER NETWORK <network at analogue.org>. I thought I was pruchasing
an original Hardbound copy but instead received a Photocopy! The photo
copy is legible but I wanted the book for it's collectability as well
as the information. Anyway I ended paying $65.00 plus $25.00 shipping
for a D**n photocopy. I e-mailed them about it and they offered to buy
the book back and replied that they have ten other people who will be
willing to buy it. FINE!! Let them just make more Photocopies!! If I
send it back I will still be out the $25.00 shipping plus whatever it
costs to ship it back to them. 

Just be aware that these guys may not be perfectly honest.
Rant off 


-- 
James Holloway
jimh54 at onebox.com - email
(972) 993-2023 x1188 - voicemail/fax




__________________________________________________
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From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Thu Sep 28 13:59:27 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (terry michaels)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:59:27 -0400
Subject: old transistors photo
Message-ID: <200009280759_MC2-B4FB-BF09@compuserve.com>

Message text written by patchell
>> BTW, I sold a CK722 on Ebay for $40.00 last year, a good example of a
> "collectible" type item.
>
> Terry Michaels

    Please tell me that you are lying.  Tell me that is a big fib! :-)
<

Hi Jim:

It's the truth, I swear.  I should explain that the CK722 I sold had uncut
leads and was in its original red and white cardboard package printed with
the Raytheon Semiconductor Products logo.  

Terry Michaels



From 104065.2340 at compuserve.com  Thu Sep 28 15:33:46 2000
From: 104065.2340 at compuserve.com (terry michaels)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:33:46 -0400
Subject: Moog modules
Message-ID: <200009280934_MC2-B4F8-816E@compuserve.com>

Hi list members:

Does anyone have, or know where I can get, the PCB layouts for the Moog
904A LPF and the 904B HPF?  

Terry Michaels



From patchell at silcom.com  Thu Sep 28 15:43:00 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (Jim Patchell)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:43:00 -0700
Subject: OT: Help! Keyboard Problems
References: <F270pTljBOh8s4KWiGt000048c1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39D34AE4.6FECE56A@silcom.com>

    Don't know where you live, but.....you should be able to fix this problem for about $10.  That is the price of a new keyboard.  The keytops kept flying off my old zeos computer, just went down to a computer show, picked up one _dirt_ cheap.

    In the future, if you spill anything on your keyboard, unplug it, take it to the sink, wash what you spilled into it out right away.  Shake it out real good.  If you have r/o water or a bottle of de-minerallized water, do a second washing with that.  Let it dry completely.  Quick action is what is needed.  Water, in general, will not
hurt the electronics.  It will definately do a lot less harm than coke or pepsi (or any other soft drink, that stuff is really nasty).

    -Jim

skinny bastard wrote:

> i'm_typing_this_with_no_spaces_because_my_gateway_keyboard_got_spilled_on._i_called_their_customer_service,_and_they_want_to_charge_50.00_for_a_new_one._I've_had_this_problem_before,_and_fixed_it_by_cleaning_the_contacts._This_time_they_look_oxidized._What_should_I_use_to_clean_them?_They're_just_contact_traces_on_clear_plastic_film.
>
> Help!!_I_can't_write_a_'c'_'s'_or_a_space_without_copying_and_pasting!!
>
> James
>
> wrote:
> >
> > > >Toby Paddock wrote:
> > >
> > > > In cleaning up the garage (the...  horror), I ran across some old
> > > > transistors.
> > > > I got them in the late 60's I think from someone who got them from
> > > > someone who got them from someplace.
> > > > Anyway, here is a picture if anyone is interested:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_m.jpg   80K
> > > > http://www.seanet.com/~tpaddock/images/old_trans_l.jpg   267K
> > > >
> > > > I'm guessing mostly germanium by the age and a quick
> > > > ohmmeter check. Some may be newer parts, there is some
> > > > obviously newer stuff in the same box.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I noticed that the leads of most of them are ferrous.
> > > > They stick to my tweezers that somehow got magnetized.
> > > >
> > > > What would a distortion box using selenium rectifiers sound like?
> > > > I think there may be some of those still hiding around here. :)
> > > >
> > > >  - -- -  Toby Paddock<
> > >
> > > Hi Toby:
> > >
> > > The two  rectangular black transistors with the clear plastic base in
> >the
> > > upper right corner of the photo appear to be the Raytheon CK722.  That
> >was
> > > the first transistor intended for the hobbyist market, and was popular
> >in
> > > the early '50s.  A detailed history of this device is available at:
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Campus/4724/index.html
> > >
> > > BTW, I sold a CK722 on Ebay for $40.00 last year, a good example of a
> > > "collectible" type item.
> > >
> > > Terry Michaels
> >
> >     Please tell me that you are lying.  Tell me that is a big fib! :-)
> >
> >     I was given a transistor radio back in the late 60's that was made
> >sometime in the 50's.  It was about the size of a lunchbox.  It was
> >constructed like a tube radio, point to point wiring, the transistors were
> >in
> >sockets.  Some of them were Ck722's.  I remember that because it was the
> >first
> >time I had ever seen a real one.  There were a couple of other types in
> >there
> >as well.  I threw the radio away!  One of the few times I threw a piece of
> >junk away.  I kind of wonder if the thing would have actually been worth
> >anything these days.
> >
> >--
> >  -Jim
> >------------------------------------------------
> >* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> >*-----------------------------------------------
> >*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> >* You didn't pay enough!
> >------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.




From Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de  Thu Sep 28 15:44:28 2000
From: Juergen.Haible at nbgm.siemens.de (Haible Juergen)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:44:28 +0200
Subject: OT: fast switched voltage regulators
Message-ID: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA029478D4@nbgm339a.nbgm.siemens.de>

I know this is a very off-topic question, not synth-related,
but I know the synth-diy list is the best source of information
for *any* electronic problem (;->)

All right, I'm looking for a tiny switched power supply chip
with internal power transistors (not more than 1 or 2 Watts
required) with the highest switching frequency available,
and with external control of the output voltage.
Small package (8 pins) would be great.

Who is making the fastest ones ? Over 1MHz is a *must*,
aiming for something like 5MHz or more. 

Any recommendations welcome.
Please answer privately to 
juergen.haible at nbgm.siemens.de

Thanks in advance,

JH.



From grichter at execpc.com  Thu Sep 28 17:25:41 2000
From: grichter at execpc.com (Grant Richter)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:25:41 -0500
Subject: old transistors photo
Message-ID: <200009281525.e8SFPnQ23097@pop2.nwbl.wi.voyager.net>

The first project I ever built that "worked" was the "Piggyback" amplifier
from ? This was a 2 transistor amplifier using CK722s, I was 10 years old,
so that would have been 1966. The only headphones I had were leather ones
from a B-29 that my uncle brought back from the war.

The cool thing about the Piggyback was all the input front ends they gave
you. A coil to listen to magnetic fields, a crystal detector for AM radio, a
dynamic microphone and even instructions for gluing a little rod to a
crystal earphone diaphragm to make an electronic stethoscope.

----------
>
> Hi Toby:
>
> The two  rectangular black transistors with the clear plastic base in the
> upper right corner of the photo appear to be the Raytheon CK722.  That was
> the first transistor intended for the hobbyist market, and was popular in
> the early '50s.  A detailed history of this device is available at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Campus/4724/index.html
>
> BTW, I sold a CK722 on Ebay for $40.00 last year, a good example of a
> "collectible" type item.
>
> Terry Michaels
> 



From goddard.duncan at mtvne.com  Thu Sep 28 18:00:01 2000
From: goddard.duncan at mtvne.com (Goddard, Duncan)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:00:01 +0100
Subject: fast switched voltage regulators
Message-ID: <45E3A7CF573DD411B7C20008C70D3947ABA41D@LON-MAIL07>

>>>All right, I'm looking for a tiny switched power supply chip
> with internal power transistors (not more than 1 or 2 Watts
> required) with the highest switching frequency available,
> and with external control of the output voltage.<<<
> 
you don't specify input- mains or d.c.? variables are hard to come by, and
the catalogue I have at work doesn't list operating frequency amongst the
parameters. but then, this catalogue is aimed at people who just need 12's
and 5's, not weirdos like us.
whatever- the same six names come up over and over, with a huge variety of
smpsu's and dc converters in all manner of packages from 4-pin sil upwards.
these are they:

traco power products
newport components
astec
lambda (formerly coutant lambda)
mascot
ems (honestly!)

traco and newport seem (as far as this catalogue- rs components- is
concerned) to have the small end of things sewn up between them. one of the
newport devices (nms0515) will turn 5v dc into + and - 15v dc at 67mA each;
it's rated at 2W and it says the output is unregulated. the thing costs ?20!
is this the sort of thing you're looking for?

d. 


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From moxie at idonex.se  Thu Sep 28 19:16:49 2000
From: moxie at idonex.se (Johan Gustavsson)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:16:49 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Bad Trader Alert- Warning
In-Reply-To: <20000928115512.KQCE321.mta03.onebox.com@onebox.com>
	(jimh54@onebox.com)
Message-ID: <200009281716.TAA06984@godzilla.idonex.se>

> I bought A copy of The Allen Strange book "Electronic Music..." from
> SYNTHESIZER NETWORK <network at analogue.org>. I thought I was pruchasing
> an original Hardbound copy but instead received a Photocopy! The photo
> copy is legible but I wanted the book for it's collectability as well
> as the information. Anyway I ended paying $65.00 plus $25.00 shipping
> for a D**n photocopy. I e-mailed them about it and they offered to buy
> the book back and replied that they have ten other people who will be
> willing to buy it. FINE!! Let them just make more Photocopies!! If I
> send it back I will still be out the $25.00 shipping plus whatever it
> costs to ship it back to them. 
> 
> Just be aware that these guys may not be perfectly honest.
> Rant off 

Well...The syntheziser network is a webdealer, with their site at
<http://www.analogue.org/network/>. Now, the text on the site
pertaining to the book is this:

>   Thorough-going patching techniques in theory. The last few copies
>   of the "second edition" very good printing (photo-copy) and still
>   the best analogue book ever.                ^^^^^^^^^^

...i.e. it says, in plain text, that the book is a photocopy. If you
buy a photocopied book from a dealer that plainly states that he's
selling a photocopy, I wouldn't really call him dishonest. I might
call you inattentive or a whiner, though :-) And posting just the mail
address, not the website adress, might look like you're trying to
avoid having the other synth-diyers find the above-quoted text, which
would make *you* the dishonest one here.

/Moxie (Have bought the very same book. Quite pleased, too)




From urekar.m at EUnet.yu  Thu Sep 28 20:56:20 2000
From: urekar.m at EUnet.yu (>>>marjan<<<)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:56:20 +0200
Subject: Ibanez schems anyone?
Message-ID: <39D39454.941CEE93@eunet.yu>

Nice list people,

I'm looking for schematics for Ibanez DM1000 digital delay
line rack for some time now. I wish to expand it's memory
(longer delays) and to add a few EH16 second ddl-type 
controls. Pleeeeeze :) 

thanks,

marjan



From psnow at magma.ca  Fri Sep 29 00:02:49 2000
From: psnow at magma.ca (Peter Snow)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:02:49 -0400
Subject: Mounting Racks - UK
References: <OFC560A582.ED4BB7B9-ON80256968.003F3F0B@blick.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39D3C009.A253EA50@magma.ca>

Stephen,

I don't know how cheap you want to go, but you may find Tom Henry's site interesting.
He has information and instructions for home-built rack systems (wood based).
http://mall.lakes.com/~map/

Cheers,

Peter


Stephen_Gray at blick.co.uk wrote:
> 
> Now I have made a budget of parts I need, the only item I am having
> problems in pricing up is a cheap rackmount type system for the items I
> will be building.  I don't know sizes etc yet.  Does anyone know of a
> source of these so I could price them up ?
> 
> Steve Gray
> 
> __________________________________________
> This  communication, and the contents of any attached file, is intended for
> the  addressee  only  and  may  be  confidential and/or contain information
> subject  to  legal  privilege  and is for the use of the intended recipient
> only.   It must not be disclosed or re-transmitted to anyone other than the
> intended  recipient.  If  it  has  been received in error please notify the
> sender immediately and permanently delete the e-mail.



From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Fri Sep 29 01:26:52 2000
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Schmitz)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:26:52 +0200
Subject: Website update.
In-Reply-To: <39D2B773.17F9D327@silcom.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20000928012606.00a6d320@mailin.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000929012652.00a6e450@mailin.uni-bonn.de>

At 20:13 27.09.00 -0700, patchell wrote:
>    Maybe this is a pretty naive question, and please remember, I have
>never used tubes in anything, so I might be ignorant......
>
>    Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the screen grid on a pentode
>tube vary the transconductance of the tube?  Seems like there should be
>someway of exploiting that to tune a tube based filter.

Right. That should be possible. Varying the screen grid voltage does shift
the DC-quiescent point. It could lead to a differential design, with plenty
of diffamps. Looking at my VTVCA, imagine a cap from plate to plate of the
pentodes whose screengrids are steered. Several of these two pentode stages
could be cascaded. 

Bye,
 Ren?


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159

 




From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Fri Sep 29 01:27:38 2000
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Schmitz)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:27:38 +0200
Subject: Website update.
In-Reply-To: <2BEB95546DCDD211A6A100805FEA47CA0294773D@nbgm339a.nbgm.sie
 mens.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000929012738.00a6c880@mailin.uni-bonn.de>

Hi J?rgen!

>Nice ! A Borg Assimilator Cube ! - sorry:  Borg Assimilator Tube.

:-)

>I'm sure it sounds better than the various Korg versions with
>diode limiters.
>Which tube performs the limiting at high resonance ? Or
>is it the transformer ? Have you tried a transformerless version
>as well ? 

As of yet, I didn't try a transformerless version. The limiting I mentioned
isn't a hard DC-limiting in the sense of the korg circuits, its just that
the grids become conductive with Vgk > 0 (Vin > Vk), and the resulting
current charges the grid caps, thus shifting the bias towards less
distortions! In which tube this happens depends on input amplitude and
resonance settings. The transformer is not getting saturated, because of
the low currents that flow. The DC bias of 0.75mA doesn't do any harm.

>ECC83's for the triodes would work as well ?

I think they ought to work, but I didn't check. 

>Ah ... reading on ... there is some text as well ... making things
>clearer. An ordinary 50Hz transformer ? I flinched, but then I read
>about the Moog-like HP feedback - that's it! One of these tiny
>pcb mount transformers ? 

Right, though it should be possible to use "more iron". The point is its
"only" in the resonance loop, and this is a musical circuit, not some
audiophile preamp. The trouble with power transformers is they're made for
stiff sources (the 230V net). They have a high stray capacitance and stray
inductance which leads to oscillations (at 10kHz or so), when driven from a
high impedance, like the EF86. Because they don't have intersected
windings, the treble response is actually more critical than the bass,
which is just a matter of the inductance of the transformer, bigger ones
would be better in this respect. However there is a damper resistor, which
reduces the overshooting greatly. 

>Final question: as you have a transformer anyway, you can do
>phase inversion with the transformer and might get along with
>one tube stage ? Would that be possible ?

It might work with a different turns ratio. I got roughly enough gain with
a single stage, but wanted to have hefty overdrive from the resonance
circuit back to the filter core. You would have to do the resonance setting
with a low-ohm pot on the transformers secondary. And you would have the
transformer-highpass within the normal signal path. -> poor bass. 

>Congrats - that's the most interesting VCF I've seen for a long time !

Many thanks! 

Bye,
 Ren?


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159

 




From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Fri Sep 29 02:33:46 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:33:46 +1000
Subject: Website update.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000929003346.009fcfd4@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 01:26 AM 29/09/00 +0200, Ren? Schmitz  wrote:

>Right. That should be possible. Varying the screen grid voltage does shift
>the DC-quiescent point. It could lead to a differential design, with plenty
>of diffamps. Looking at my VTVCA, imagine a cap from plate to plate of the
>pentodes whose screengrids are steered. Several of these two pentode stages
>could be cascaded. 

There is an (expensive) valve based compressor working along these lines,
using a matched pair of pentodes. (wonder how long they stay matched?)

paul perry melbourne austrlaia




From patchell at silcom.com  Fri Sep 29 03:40:10 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:40:10 -0700
Subject: Website update.
References: <3.0.5.32.20000928012606.00a6d320@mailin.uni-bonn.de> <3.0.5.32.20000929012652.00a6e450@mailin.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <39D3F2FA.94344230@silcom.com>

    Hmmm.....what about a pentode ladder filter......that might cut down on the
number of diff amps.  That would be a sight, a moog ladder filter built out of
tubes....(slap..) well, it was just a thought.

Ren? Schmitz wrote:

> At 20:13 27.09.00 -0700, patchell wrote:
> >    Maybe this is a pretty naive question, and please remember, I have
> >never used tubes in anything, so I might be ignorant......
> >
> >    Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the screen grid on a pentode
> >tube vary the transconductance of the tube?  Seems like there should be
> >someway of exploiting that to tune a tube based filter.
>
> Right. That should be possible. Varying the screen grid voltage does shift
> the DC-quiescent point. It could lead to a differential design, with plenty
> of diffamps. Looking at my VTVCA, imagine a cap from plate to plate of the
> pentodes whose screengrids are steered. Several of these two pentode stages
> could be cascaded.
>
> Bye,
>  Ren?
>
> --
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>
>

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From music.maker at gte.net  Fri Sep 29 07:11:55 2000
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:11:55
Subject: 555 + transistor VCO
Message-ID: <200009291418.JAA29005026@smtppop2.gte.net>

National Semiconductor Linear Integrated Circuits manual,
pp. 4-14.  There is a linear ramp circuit that uses a 555 and
an extra transistor to source the charging current for the
integration cap.  You can also get the datasheet at:

http://www.national.com/ads-cgi/viewer.pl/ds/LM/LM555.pdf

The circuit is on page 9.

This is a fixed osc, but how much would it take to make it
VC??  There's also the PAiA FatMan way, it's a VCO, but uses
an opamp package and 2 trannies.

Paul Perry <pfperry at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>I seem to remember a simple 555 sawtooth VCO using 
>a transistor as a constant current source to 
>straighten out the saw. Any pointers? Cant find it in my
>files..
>I'm just looking for a very simple VCO saw, need not be 
>at all accurate.
>
>paul perry melbourne australia
>
>

-- Scott Gravenhorst : On The Edge, but the Edge of What?
-- Linux Rex, Linux Vobiscum  |  RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: www.teklab.com/~chordman
-- NonFatMan: members.xoom.com/_XMCM/chordman/index.html
-- The 21st century does NOT start in the year 2000!!!





From jogus at ida.liu.se  Fri Sep 29 10:27:46 2000
From: jogus at ida.liu.se (Johan Gustavsson)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:27:46 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Adress change
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10009291025310.4156-100000@aste4.ida.liu.se>

Ok, so I don't know if anyone cares, but...

I'm migrating my mail traffic from my old, old job adress to a more recent
one. If someone would want to reach me, don't mail moxie at idonex.se, but
instead mail jogus at ida.liu.se. Ok? :-)

/Moxie (Organizing a bit)





From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Fri Sep 29 14:35:54 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:35:54 +1000
Subject: 555 + transistor VCO
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000929123554.00c3e4e4@popa.melbpc.org.au>

I seem to remember a simple 555 sawtooth VCO using 
a transistor as a constant current source to 
straighten out the saw. Any pointers? Cant find it in my
files..
I'm just looking for a very simple VCO saw, need not be 
at all accurate.

paul perry melbourne australia




From bnillson at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 30 01:53:02 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:53:02 GMT
Subject: 555 + transistor VCO
Message-ID: <F111SqVdusFY1R1ybSy0000845d@hotmail.com>

Does it absolutely have to be a 555?
If not you could try BJ's "famous" 4046 design no1.
Trow away all the stuff exept IC3a,R13,R11,C2
and then you have a wery nice SAW OSC.

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-133242/4046.htm

Reg
BJ

>From: Paul Perry <pfperry at melbpc.org.au>
>To: synth-diy at node12b53.a2000.nl
>Subject: 555 + transistor VCO
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:35:54 +1000
>
>I seem to remember a simple 555 sawtooth VCO using
>a transistor as a constant current source to
>straighten out the saw. Any pointers? Cant find it in my
>files..
>I'm just looking for a very simple VCO saw, need not be
>at all accurate.
>
>paul perry melbourne australia
>

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From BonoVox9 at aol.com  Sat Sep 30 01:54:57 2000
From: BonoVox9 at aol.com (BonoVox9 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:54:57 EDT
Subject: Roland problemsssssssssssss... please help me!
Message-ID: <56.149394d.270685d1@aol.com>

I have a problem now. I'm not very happy. I just got the Roland RS, and I was 
playing it and noticed that the volume pot was scratchy, so, i took the top 
cover off and sprayed it with some contact cleaner. I turned the volume pot 
back and forth about 20 times and I put the top back on and put all of the 
screws in and then I turned it on. 

My RS has the push buttons, not the rocker switches, and when I tried to turn 
the organ sounds on, the buttons don't work. So.. I don't know what could 
have caused it. Could maybe opening it up cause a wire to come loose? Did I 
fry it with static electricity? Did the cleaner damage it? I only used it on 
the volume pot. 

I'm pretty worried because I just spent a lot of money on this keyboard and 
now it's useless. 

I'm assuming that someone out there has had a similar experience with the 
switches not working on a juno or an 808, since they are similar. When you 
power it up, it automatically puts the 4' strings and ensemeble mode on, it 
plays like that, but, I can't switch the sounds now..

if anybody knows, anything, again, i would really appreciate it.

jason.



From bnillson at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 30 02:00:30 2000
From: bnillson at hotmail.com (Bjorn Julin)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:00:30 GMT
Subject: SFF25002 IC? Organs stuff??
Message-ID: <F20QvfQUGlKNyKpGGYU00007698@hotmail.com>

Anyone who knows what a IC with the name SFF25002E are?

Reg
BJ


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From metamaticdiy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 03:11:09 2000
From: metamaticdiy at yahoo.com (R.D. Hess)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 555 + transistor VCO
Message-ID: <20000930011109.15612.qmail@web1406.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Paul Perry <pfperry at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
> I seem to remember a simple 555 sawtooth VCO using 
> a transistor as a constant current source to 
> straighten out the saw. Any pointers?

 Sounds like Tom G.'s vco555/VCO6.

 http://www.xavax.com/efm/pdf/vco555.pdf

 Or:

 http://www.xavax.com/efm/cbook/vco6.html

 Although I must confess I've not been able to get one
running even after two tries. Others have reported
success, so I'm sure it's my own incompetence to
blame.

 Richard Hess
 metamaticdiy at yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
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From mmcintos at onvoymail.com  Sat Sep 30 03:47:09 2000
From: mmcintos at onvoymail.com (Malcolm B McIntosh)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:47:09 -0700
Subject: Tube Moog (Was:Re: Website update)
References: <3.0.5.32.20000928012606.00a6d320@mailin.uni-bonn.de> <3.0.5.32.20000929012652.00a6e450@mailin.uni-bonn.de> <39D3F2FA.94344230@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <39D5461D.5664@onvoymail.com>

I actually tried one.... It had 3 ladder rungs (thus a 12 pole filter, I
hoped).  I could not get the thing to sweep very much at all, maybe from
50Hz to 500Hz.  Now mind, I was just hacking at it....  Since I was
interested in seeing if the pentodes could be used as a filter core in
the ladder configuration, I just used an opp amp back end as the
differential amp section.  One time, (and one time only), I got a really
nice sounding resonance feedback.

Tried a 4 pole with 5 twin triodes.... Same result.

Malcolm (still crazy)

patchell wrote:
> 
>     Hmmm.....what about a pentode ladder filter......that might cut
>down on the number of diff amps.  That would be a sight, a moog ladder 
>filter built out of tubes....(slap..) well, it was just a thought.
> 
> Ren? Schmitz wrote:
> 
> > At 20:13 27.09.00 -0700, patchell wrote:
> > >    Maybe this is a pretty naive question, and please remember, I 
> > >have never used tubes in anything, so I might be ignorant......
> > >
> > >    Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the screen grid on a 
> > > pentode tube vary the transconductance of the tube?  Seems like 
> > > there should be someway of exploiting that to tune a tube based 
> > > filter.
> >
> > Right. That should be possible. Varying the screen grid voltage does 
> > shift the DC-quiescent point. It could lead to a differential design, 
> > with plenty of diffamps. Looking at my VTVCA, imagine a cap from 
> > plate to plate of the pentodes whose screengrids are steered. Several 
> > of these two pentode stages could be cascaded.
> >
> > Bye,
> >  Ren?
> >
> > --
> > uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> > http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> >
> >
> 
> --
>  -Jim
> ------------------------------------------------
> * Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
> *-----------------------------------------------
> *If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
> * You didn't pay enough!
> ------------------------------------------------



From synth1 at airmail.net  Sat Sep 30 07:11:13 2000
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:11:13 -0500
Subject: New MOTM modular demos
Message-ID: <002001c02a9c$dacb5f80$023f240a@airmail.net>

Ambient composer Robert Rich has sent in 3 small demos of his ever-expanding
MOTM system.
A GIF-format patch sheet is included for 1 of them. If you think MP3 files
never really sound
all that great, check out Demo #3.

See: www.synthtech.com

click NEWS, they are at the top of the page.

Comments welcome.

Paul Schreiber
Synthesis Technology





From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Sat Sep 30 15:42:20 2000
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:42:20 +1000
Subject: Tube Moog (Was:Re: Website update)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000930134220.00b2ac5c@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 06:47 PM 29/09/00 -0700, Malcolm "(still crazy)" mcintos at onvoymail wrote:
>I actually tried one.... It had 3 ladder rungs (thus a 12 pole filter, I
>hoped).  I could not get the thing to sweep very much at all, maybe from
>50Hz to 500Hz.  

I suppose the limiting factor would be the ratio that the transconductance
sweeps over, which I doubt would be enough for the full audio range..
those semis have spoilt us hackers ;-)

paul perry melb aust

PS stay crazy, nobody sane ever made a 'new' circuit!




From patchell at silcom.com  Sat Sep 30 17:45:35 2000
From: patchell at silcom.com (patchell)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:45:35 -0700
Subject: Tube Moog (Was:Re: Website update)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000930134220.00b2ac5c@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <39D60A9F.207DD10A@silcom.com>



Paul Perry wrote:

> At 06:47 PM 29/09/00 -0700, Malcolm "(still crazy)" mcintos at onvoymail wrote:
> >I actually tried one.... It had 3 ladder rungs (thus a 12 pole filter, I
> >hoped).  I could not get the thing to sweep very much at all, maybe from
> >50Hz to 500Hz.
>
> I suppose the limiting factor would be the ratio that the transconductance
> sweeps over, which I doubt would be enough for the full audio range..
> those semis have spoilt us hackers ;-)
>
> paul perry melb aust
>
> PS stay crazy, nobody sane ever made a 'new' circuit!

    I don't know.  I was always convinced that the screen grid could provide
quite a few decades worth of transconductance change.  I just don't know that
much about tubes.

--
 -Jim
------------------------------------------------
* Visit:http://www.silcom.com/~patchell/
*-----------------------------------------------
*If you didn't buy a home in Santa Barbara,
* You didn't pay enough!
------------------------------------------------





From jhaible at t-online.de  Sat Sep 30 20:16:22 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:16:22 +0200
Subject: Tube Moog (Was:Re: Website update)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000930134220.00b2ac5c@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <001001c02b0a$8b776960$5a75e03e@debitel.net>

> I suppose the limiting factor would be the ratio that the transconductance
> sweeps over, which I doubt would be enough for the full audio range..

Speaking of limited range, does anybody know why the Moog Modular
LP VCF had (needed ?) a Range switch to choose between different sets
of capacitors ?
Was there a technical reason (such as buffer amplifier's impedance too
low), or did Moog not fully trust in the abilities (i.e. wide sweep range)
of his new found circuit, or is there an ergonomical reason to have
a range switch ?

JH.





From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Sat Sep 30 21:15:44 2000
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Schmitz)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:15:44 +0200
Subject: Tube Moog (Was:Re: Website update)
In-Reply-To: <39D60A9F.207DD10A@silcom.com>
References: <1.5.4.32.20000930134220.00b2ac5c@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000930211544.00a267e0@mailin.uni-bonn.de>

At 08:45 30.09.00 -0700, patchell wrote:
>
>
>Paul Perry wrote:
>
>> At 06:47 PM 29/09/00 -0700, Malcolm "(still crazy)" mcintos at onvoymail
wrote:
>> >I actually tried one.... It had 3 ladder rungs (thus a 12 pole filter, I
>> >hoped).  I could not get the thing to sweep very much at all, maybe from
>> >50Hz to 500Hz.
>>
>> I suppose the limiting factor would be the ratio that the transconductance
>> sweeps over, which I doubt would be enough for the full audio range..
>> those semis have spoilt us hackers ;-)
>>
>> paul perry melb aust
>>
>> PS stay crazy, nobody sane ever made a 'new' circuit!
>
>    I don't know.  I was always convinced that the screen grid could provide
>quite a few decades worth of transconductance change.  I just don't know that
>much about tubes.
>

I'd too say that the transconductance sweep is larger. Its just not
possible to vary the transconductance via the standing current of the
ladder, like it is possible with transistors. (Would be equally difficult
than a FET-ladder filter...) 
With pentodes you could vary the transconductance over a larger range, just
you can't stack them like transistors. Malcolm, you used triodes, right?
What did your arrangement look like? This might be a totally different
story than what Jim had in mind.

Staggering the tubes creates some side problems, you have to have a higher
supply and you must take care of the maximum allowed filament to cathode
voltage which is +/-100V usually. One barely sees amplifiers with more than
two systems in series for these reasons. 

IMO the best way would be to fold the ladder so that every tubes cathode
returns to GND, then one can use pentodes whose screengrids are steered
from the same source refered to GND. It should be a stiff source as the
screengrid draws some current.
I drew a sketch of such a thing, I've put it up to:
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/tubelad.gif

Bye,
 Ren?





-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159

 




From Synthmanic at aol.com  Sat Sep 30 21:32:20 2000
From: Synthmanic at aol.com (Synthmanic at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:32:20 EDT
Subject: Tube Moog (Was:Re: Website update)
Message-ID: <9c.7bb7145.270799c4@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/30/00 1:29:23 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jhaible at t-online.de writes:

> Speaking of limited range, does anybody know why the Moog Modular
>  LP VCF had (needed ?) a Range switch to choose between different sets
>  of capacitors ?
>  Was there a technical reason (such as buffer amplifier's impedance too
>  low), or did Moog not fully trust in the abilities (i.e. wide sweep range)
>  of his new found circuit, or is there an ergonomical reason to have
>  a range switch ?

You could ask Moog himself, he could tell you better than anybody. Here's his 
e-mail address:

Realmoog at bigbriar.com

Dave



From jhaible at t-online.de  Sat Sep 30 23:51:16 2000
From: jhaible at t-online.de (jh.)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:51:16 +0200
Subject: Tube Moog (Was:Re: Website update)
References: <9c.7bb7145.270799c4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c02b28$91cb9b60$bf74e03e@debitel.net>

> You could ask Moog himself, he could tell you better than anybody. Here's
his
> e-mail address:
>
> Realmoog at bigbriar.com
>
> Dave

Well, it's not such a *burning* question to bother Bob Moog about it.
(I asked a question once, using that email adress, and never got an answer.
It's ok for me. )
I thought someone might have read about the range switch in some publication
or the like, that's why I was asking.

JH.