From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Oct  1 01:28:40 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:28:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930121344.03851938@mail.which.net>
Message-ID: <20030930232840.29891.qmail@web80204.mail.yahoo.com>

OK then... lets make a formal definition  ;^P

The "envelope" of a signal is what your 'eye'
would process looking at the rectified or absolute
value of a signal.

The envelope would be a 'best fit' curve to that.

Single constant generators do not work (for me)
I'm processing a guitar, which has the following
nasty habits

1) The positive and negative half cycles do not
have equal amplitude... and this change is variable
over time. Usually there is one large peak of one
polarity, followed by two smaller peaks of the
opposite
polarity.

2) The guitar has a normal exponential decay, but the
decay time can be changed easily (on the fly) by
adding
damping to the strings in small or even large amounts.
The biggest problem is that if you mute the strings...
it will take forever for a single constant to get to
the
correct value.  The next note will start at the wrong
value... maybe a too high value if the next note is
more quiet.

The ripple vs speed tradeoff is a killer.  Any ripple
(which the 'best fit' or 'eyeball' curve conveniently
filters out) will cause noticible intermodulation
distortion especially if you are using the CV to drive
a filter.  Any lag will destroy the accuracy of the
original waveform.  Now maybe your guitar, or drum
has a real noticible attack time.

This is a real nightmare problem.  If I could stand
it, 
I'd think about running some delay in the signal to
allow the circuit to 'look into the future' and
adapt... but I fear even a millisecond is too much

H^) harry


--- Richard Wentk <richard at skydancer.com> wrote:
> At 13:08 30/09/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
> > > If you're getting signal breakthrough it means
> either there's
> > > some signal
> > > breakthrough in the circuit due to a design or
> construction
> > > fault, or the
> > > filtering isn't working properly, or both. The
> output should
> > > be a slow *DC*
> > > variation. There should be no effective signal
> content above
> > > 100Hz at the
> > > very maximum, and 10Hz would be more typical for
> many applications.
> >
> >That is a good question. A lowpass with 100Hz or
> even 10Hz
> >gives problems with signals that have a short
> attack.
> 
> But are those problems severe enough to make a
> musical difference? I can't 
> think of many applications where a dual
> time-constant standard follower 
> circuit wouldn't produce useful results. And people
> have been using single 
> constant followers since Bob Moog's days without
> worrying too much about it.
> 
> > > The only way to create a perfect envelope
> follower is to do
> > > it digitally in
> > > non-real time, where you can go forward and
> backtrack with an
> > > adaptive
> > > time-constant and some clever logic.
> >
> >This is what I tryed, now I found that I can not
> write down
> >a formal description of "envelope", because I do
> not know
> >what it really is.
> >
> >Like I said, I thought I knew exactly what it is
> about, but
> >when it comes to a formal description (algorithm) I
> know
> >nothing about.
> 
> That's because it's an ad hoc thing that doesn't
> have a formal definition. 
> However you do it you'll always have a trade-off
> between responsiveness and 
> accuracy, especially on transients.
> 
> If you want a digital interpretation, pick your time
> constant, sample 
> sections equivalent to its duration, calculate the
> RMS value in each (not 
> too hard digitally) and then interpolate the values
> to create a curve. Use 
> cubic instead of linear interpolation for a smoother
> result.
> 
> For adaptive tracking lower the time constant by a
> few factors whenever you 
> see a transient (i.e. a very rapid change in RMS
> level), shift the start of 
> each RMS window to the beginning of the transient,
> and then increase the 
> time constant again during the release or decay
> period. This won't track 
> reverse transients but it will handle most other
> things.
> 
> You can include a reverse transient check if you
> want to get really picky.
> 
> This solution won't work in real time because
> there's some lookahead and 
> lookback is involved, but it will give you the best
> possible results 
> otherwise.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 


From patchell at cox.net  Wed Oct  1 02:41:56 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:41:56 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EE1@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.
 com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030930173902.00b1cdc0@pop.west.cox.net>

At 06:15 PM 9/30/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
>That's why some analog computers have 10 turn pots.
>Together with the counter knobs this will cost
>20$ per dial, ouch!

You know, even at $20 each for the 10 turn pots and counter knobs, I feel 
that is money well spent.  It sure makes setting the VCO pitch a lot 
easier, even easier than say a coarse and fine pot, although, probably 
using a rotary switch to select the octave, and a fine pot to set the pitch 
in that octave would not be too bad, but, that all takes up valuable panel 
space.  For the time being, I am sticking with the ten turn pots until I 
come up with something I like better.


>OTOH, for critical applications it is the only way:
>Concentric dual pots would be cool, but they are not available.
>Old measurement gear has often a coarse pot/switch plus
>a "vernier" pot.
>I used a 12 step switch "coarse" with 1% resistors
>plus vernier pot for some purpose. The steps are not equal,
>to my dismay.
>
>
>Another source of error: some people have a couple
>of modules of the same type. Resistors have 1%,
>but the usual pots have a loose correlation between
>angle and resistance. A 1/10 ratio could mean 1.0
>on one module, but maybe 1.2 on the other.
>
>So, not only the type of module and all dials
>have to be noted, but also the actual "number"
>of the module that was used.
>
>But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
>finding an old patch is near to impossible.
>
>m.c.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ian Fritz [mailto:ijfritz at earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Dienstag, 30. September 2003 15:52
> > To: Czech Martin; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: RE: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
> >
> >
> > Hi Martin --
> >
> > At 05:21 AM 9/30/2003, Czech Martin wrote:
> >
> > >Depends on how good your eyes are.
> >
> > True.  Mine are just so-so. It also depends on how large the
> > knob is.  I
> > made a linear vernier about 5 cm long (corresponding to a
> > typical small
> > synth knob) and I can easily set and read the vernier at my
> > normal reading
> > distance.  It has a much coarser scale than I've seen on the
> > old radio
> > verniers. I did it that way to make it fairly easy to
> > construct.  You could
> > copy the image I posted into a graphics program and reduce it
> > to different
> > sizes to see how it works for your eyes.
> >
> > >I guess some control voltage pathes are more
> > >sensitive than others.
> >
> > Right.  But I think If you have a complex patch you may still
> > want to get
> > all the parameters quite accurately to avoid accumulated error.
> >
> > >What about a range switch together with the pot?
> > >This will virtually increase the resolution of the pot.
> > >It can be a 2 position, a 3 postion, or the usual
> > >12 position switches depending on application.
> >
> > Well, I did mention that at the end of the post.  Myself, I wouldn't
> > consider that practical for every single control, but for
> > some controls it
> > would probably be necessary.  For example if you need to
> > reproduce an FM
> > patch, the frequency ratio needs to be very accurate.  The modulation
> > amplitude I'm not sure about.  That could get tricky.
> >
> >    Ian
> >
> >

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  1 03:22:21 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:22:21 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030930173902.00b1cdc0@pop.west.cox.net>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EE1@EXCHANGE2.Micronas. com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930191348.00a88cf0@127.0.0.1>

At 06:41 PM 9/30/2003, James Patchell wrote:
>At 06:15 PM 9/30/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
>>That's why some analog computers have 10 turn pots.
>>Together with the counter knobs this will cost
>>20$ per dial, ouch!
>
>You know, even at $20 each for the 10 turn pots and counter knobs, I feel 
>that is money well spent.

For every single control?  Wow, you must be one of those rich guys!

>   It sure makes setting the VCO pitch a lot easier, even easier than say 
> a coarse and fine pot, although, probably using a rotary switch to select 
> the octave, and a fine pot to set the pitch in that octave would not be 
> too bad, but, that all takes up valuable panel space.  For the time 
> being, I am sticking with the ten turn pots until I come up with 
> something I like better.

My idea was *not* for pitch controls!  You can set pitch with a counter or 
tuner, etc.  The vernier idea is for everything else, so you can reproduce 
patches accurately.

Sorry, but I still think it's a great idea.  Must be that people aren't 
interested in saving patches.

   Ian


From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  1 03:39:53 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:39:53 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EE1@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.
 com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930193631.00aa3128@127.0.0.1>

At 10:15 AM 9/30/2003, Czech Martin wrote:
>That's why some analog computers have 10 turn pots.
>Together with the counter knobs this will cost
>20$ per dial, ouch!
>
>OTOH, for critical applications it is the only way:
>Concentric dual pots would be cool, but they are not available.
>Old measurement gear has often a coarse pot/switch plus
>a "vernier" pot.
>I used a 12 step switch "coarse" with 1% resistors
>plus vernier pot for some purpose. The steps are not equal,
>to my dismay.
>
>
>Another source of error: some people have a couple
>of modules of the same type. Resistors have 1%,
>but the usual pots have a loose correlation between
>angle and resistance. A 1/10 ratio could mean 1.0
>on one module, but maybe 1.2 on the other.
>
>So, not only the type of module and all dials
>have to be noted, but also the actual "number"
>of the module that was used.

I think most people could manage this without too much trouble.

>But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
>finding an old patch is near to impossible.

I think that 7-bit resolution on all your controls (except pitch) would 
make it possible.  But it doesn't sound like anybody really cares.

   Ian





>m.c.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ian Fritz [mailto:ijfritz at earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Dienstag, 30. September 2003 15:52
> > To: Czech Martin; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: RE: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
> >
> >
> > Hi Martin --
> >
> > At 05:21 AM 9/30/2003, Czech Martin wrote:
> >
> > >Depends on how good your eyes are.
> >
> > True.  Mine are just so-so. It also depends on how large the
> > knob is.  I
> > made a linear vernier about 5 cm long (corresponding to a
> > typical small
> > synth knob) and I can easily set and read the vernier at my
> > normal reading
> > distance.  It has a much coarser scale than I've seen on the
> > old radio
> > verniers. I did it that way to make it fairly easy to
> > construct.  You could
> > copy the image I posted into a graphics program and reduce it
> > to different
> > sizes to see how it works for your eyes.
> >
> > >I guess some control voltage pathes are more
> > >sensitive than others.
> >
> > Right.  But I think If you have a complex patch you may still
> > want to get
> > all the parameters quite accurately to avoid accumulated error.
> >
> > >What about a range switch together with the pot?
> > >This will virtually increase the resolution of the pot.
> > >It can be a 2 position, a 3 postion, or the usual
> > >12 position switches depending on application.
> >
> > Well, I did mention that at the end of the post.  Myself, I wouldn't
> > consider that practical for every single control, but for
> > some controls it
> > would probably be necessary.  For example if you need to
> > reproduce an FM
> > patch, the frequency ratio needs to be very accurate.  The modulation
> > amplitude I'm not sure about.  That could get tricky.
> >
> >    Ian
> >
> >


From jmahoney at gate.net  Wed Oct  1 05:16:45 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:16:45 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930193631.00aa3128@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <009301c387ca$71d00e70$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

Some people wrote:
>
> >Together with the counter knobs this will cost
> >20$ per dial, ouch!
>
> >But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
> >finding an old patch is near to impossible.
>
> I think that 7-bit resolution on all your controls (except pitch) would
> make it possible.  But it doesn't sound like anybody really cares.

[paste]
> Must be that people aren't interested in saving patches.

I'm totally interested in saving patches! I just don't think verniers are
the answer, certainly not for $20 per knob.

I think we need a programmable digital potentiometer with high precision,
fine-grained variability, and the proper electrical characteristics for an
analog synth. We discussed the Analog Devices digital pots about a month
ago, and people seemed to agree that they were not the answer. Or, at least,
they are not a drop-in replacement for regular pots.

Could digital pots could work in conjunction with VCAs and inverters? I
don't have the engineering knowledge to say for sure, but... The current
crop of digipots (had to shorten it!) can only handle a limited range of V.
However, can't that limited V can be used to control the gain of a VCA? If
so, then we're basically there, in my oh-so-humble opinion.
--
john (thinking that ignorance is not bliss)


From jmahoney at gate.net  Wed Oct  1 05:30:08 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:30:08 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
References: <20030930232840.29891.qmail@web80204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009601c387cc$509eac00$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

Harry say...
> OK then... lets make a formal definition  ;^P
Good idea.

> The ripple vs speed tradeoff is a killer. [snip]
> This is a real nightmare problem.  If I could stand
> it,  I'd think about running some delay in the signal to
> allow the circuit to 'look into the future' and
> adapt... but I fear even a millisecond is too much

Fast analog EGs have about 1 ms attack, but we can probably spare a few ms
if needed.

You have to trade reaction time (speed) for smoothing in a simple envelope
follower, but a digital device can have complex smoothing algorithms. If the
signal delta is greater than a certain amount (or percentage) then you can
change the envelope instantly. If the delta is less than a certain
threshhold then you only change the envelope a certain amount (a variable
slew rate, which can be linear, expo, etc.).

You can also maintain moving averages (pos & neg) several samples in length,
which can be compared to the instantaneous measurements. For example, if the
difference between the average and instant peaks exceeds a threshhold, then
you do one thing; if not, you do something else.

I hope that makes sense, because I'm tired!
--
john


From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  1 05:36:55 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:36:55 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <009301c387ca$71d00e70$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930193631.00aa3128@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930213413.00a84f78@127.0.0.1>

At 09:16 PM 9/30/2003, john mahoney wrote:
>Some people wrote:
> >
> > >Together with the counter knobs this will cost
> > >20$ per dial, ouch!
> >
> > >But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
> > >finding an old patch is near to impossible.
> >
> > I think that 7-bit resolution on all your controls (except pitch) would
> > make it possible.  But it doesn't sound like anybody really cares.
>
>[paste]
> > Must be that people aren't interested in saving patches.
>
>I'm totally interested in saving patches! I just don't think verniers are
>the answer, certainly not for $20 per knob.


I'm talking about a *scale* vernier, not a mechanical gear reduction. It's 
a piece of paper or plastic that costs about  .00001 cents!







From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Oct  1 06:00:32 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:00:32 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030930173902.00b1cdc0@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3F7A515F.214D9861@prodigy.net>

OTOH... 10 turn pots means slow changes.  Its like the difference between
the ARP Odyssey and the MiniMoog... the Minimoog excels in quick changes
because of the octave switch... but the Ody will allow slow fades over large
intervals with the sliders.

IMHO I like to have both.  How about Coarse, Fine, AND an octave switch.

I've SEEN your panels (at least photos) Jim... its not like they are densely
packed or anything :^P

H^) harry

James Patchell wrote:

> At 06:15 PM 9/30/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
> >That's why some analog computers have 10 turn pots.
> >Together with the counter knobs this will cost
> >20$ per dial, ouch!
>
> You know, even at $20 each for the 10 turn pots and counter knobs, I feel
> that is money well spent.  It sure makes setting the VCO pitch a lot
> easier, even easier than say a coarse and fine pot, although, probably
> using a rotary switch to select the octave, and a fine pot to set the pitch
> in that octave would not be too bad, but, that all takes up valuable panel
> space.  For the time being, I am sticking with the ten turn pots until I
> come up with something I like better.
>
> >OTOH, for critical applications it is the only way:
> >Concentric dual pots would be cool, but they are not available.
> >Old measurement gear has often a coarse pot/switch plus
> >a "vernier" pot.
> >I used a 12 step switch "coarse" with 1% resistors
> >plus vernier pot for some purpose. The steps are not equal,
> >to my dismay.
> >
> >
> >Another source of error: some people have a couple
> >of modules of the same type. Resistors have 1%,
> >but the usual pots have a loose correlation between
> >angle and resistance. A 1/10 ratio could mean 1.0
> >on one module, but maybe 1.2 on the other.
> >
> >So, not only the type of module and all dials
> >have to be noted, but also the actual "number"
> >of the module that was used.
> >
> >But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
> >finding an old patch is near to impossible.
> >
> >m.c.
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ian Fritz [mailto:ijfritz at earthlink.net]
> > > Sent: Dienstag, 30. September 2003 15:52
> > > To: Czech Martin; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > > Subject: RE: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Martin --
> > >
> > > At 05:21 AM 9/30/2003, Czech Martin wrote:
> > >
> > > >Depends on how good your eyes are.
> > >
> > > True.  Mine are just so-so. It also depends on how large the
> > > knob is.  I
> > > made a linear vernier about 5 cm long (corresponding to a
> > > typical small
> > > synth knob) and I can easily set and read the vernier at my
> > > normal reading
> > > distance.  It has a much coarser scale than I've seen on the
> > > old radio
> > > verniers. I did it that way to make it fairly easy to
> > > construct.  You could
> > > copy the image I posted into a graphics program and reduce it
> > > to different
> > > sizes to see how it works for your eyes.
> > >
> > > >I guess some control voltage pathes are more
> > > >sensitive than others.
> > >
> > > Right.  But I think If you have a complex patch you may still
> > > want to get
> > > all the parameters quite accurately to avoid accumulated error.
> > >
> > > >What about a range switch together with the pot?
> > > >This will virtually increase the resolution of the pot.
> > > >It can be a 2 position, a 3 postion, or the usual
> > > >12 position switches depending on application.
> > >
> > > Well, I did mention that at the end of the post.  Myself, I wouldn't
> > > consider that practical for every single control, but for
> > > some controls it
> > > would probably be necessary.  For example if you need to
> > > reproduce an FM
> > > patch, the frequency ratio needs to be very accurate.  The modulation
> > > amplitude I'm not sure about.  That could get tricky.
> > >
> > >    Ian
> > >
> > >
>
>          -Jim
> ***************************************************
> I'm a man
> But I can change
> If I have to
> I guess.
>
> Man's Prayer
> Red Green
>
> ***************************************************
> http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
>
> http://members.cox.net/patchell
>
> ***************************************************


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Oct  1 06:06:24 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:06:24 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930193631.00aa3128@127.0.0.1> <009301c387ca$71d00e70$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>
Message-ID: <3F7A52C0.5B8D1E0B@prodigy.net>

The "digital" pots could be used for everything... that you could compress into
a 0-5V or 0-3.3V range. By prescaling with opamps... or (as JH might propose
-he has in the past) ... not making the signals larger than they need to be in
the first place
maybe 0.5V amplitude... those digital pots could work fine.  No need for VCAs to
use
them

I bet a lot of you modular people would not be happy with 7 bit resolution...
the pots
on a Prophet V are seven bit...and they zipper noticibly.  Willing to go there
with your
modular.

Pots are reasonably cheap, quiet, etc.

H^) harry

john mahoney wrote:

> Some people wrote:
> >
> > >Together with the counter knobs this will cost
> > >20$ per dial, ouch!
> >
> > >But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
> > >finding an old patch is near to impossible.
> >
> > I think that 7-bit resolution on all your controls (except pitch) would
> > make it possible.  But it doesn't sound like anybody really cares.
>
> [paste]
> > Must be that people aren't interested in saving patches.
>
> I'm totally interested in saving patches! I just don't think verniers are
> the answer, certainly not for $20 per knob.
>
> I think we need a programmable digital potentiometer with high precision,
> fine-grained variability, and the proper electrical characteristics for an
> analog synth. We discussed the Analog Devices digital pots about a month
> ago, and people seemed to agree that they were not the answer. Or, at least,
> they are not a drop-in replacement for regular pots.
>
> Could digital pots could work in conjunction with VCAs and inverters? I
> don't have the engineering knowledge to say for sure, but... The current
> crop of digipots (had to shorten it!) can only handle a limited range of V.
> However, can't that limited V can be used to control the gain of a VCA? If
> so, then we're basically there, in my oh-so-humble opinion.
> --
> john (thinking that ignorance is not bliss)


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Oct  1 06:14:05 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:14:05 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] DIY in the family
References: <oe8hnvgvnq099qigdb0retvjp6fs0vnt5n@4ax.com> <E1A4ERr-00029q-00@warpcore.tom> <ugpinvctd7vgpgm264osn8g6rv7i6j7io0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3F7A548D.3F894CB3@prodigy.net>

In the olden days... one contact was used for voltage (it 'made' first)
then
the second contact was used for 'key down' ... this activated the sample /
hold.

Bob Moog figured out a way to use just one, by superimposing an AC signal
for the S/H on the DC voltage from the divider string.  The first time I
saw
it it looked hokey... as usual Dr. Bob was right and I was wrong... its
quite
elegant.

Two or more contacts could be used for velocity sensing....

H^) harry

Martin Fay wrote:

> Tom wrote:
> >If you're doing digital (you did say MIDI) I'm not sure what you could
> >do with multiple contacts that you couldn't do with one, except maybe
> >some redundancy for a high-availability keyboard, with failover to the
> >second keyboard in extreme situations like having an elephant step on
> >the first one :-)
>
> Yes, just the one set of contacts would be needed to feed a scanner.
>
> >FWIW, even the duophonic Odyssey's 2- and 3-bus keyboards used only
> >one bus for CV.
>
> It's a long time since I've looked at Odyssey schematics. I wonder why
> they felt the need to use multi-bus keyboards as it must have added
> quite a bit to the cost?
>
> Martin
>
> | VAZ virtual analogue synths | www.monosect.com
> | www.software-technology.com | electronoiseclash


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Oct  1 06:19:38 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:19:38 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930193631.00aa3128@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20030930213413.00a84f78@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <3F7A55D9.77DE88F5@prodigy.net>

The scale vernier could be paper... or could be a very expensive
Front Panel Express engraving.  Might not be 'that' easy to make.

(Ian... I think a lot of folks here have not played with slide rules
or vernier marked calipers.  Come to think of it... I haven't
played with a slide rule either :^)

I'd like to see what the knob looks like. Seems you'd want to
buy those.

Maybe we could all 'agree' on a custom knob and then
buy a bunch as a group

sorry, what was I thinking...   :^P

H^) harry

Ian Fritz wrote:

> At 09:16 PM 9/30/2003, john mahoney wrote:
> >Some people wrote:
> > >
> > > >Together with the counter knobs this will cost
> > > >20$ per dial, ouch!
> > >
> > > >But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
> > > >finding an old patch is near to impossible.
> > >
> > > I think that 7-bit resolution on all your controls (except pitch) would
> > > make it possible.  But it doesn't sound like anybody really cares.
> >
> >[paste]
> > > Must be that people aren't interested in saving patches.
> >
> >I'm totally interested in saving patches! I just don't think verniers are
> >the answer, certainly not for $20 per knob.
>
> I'm talking about a *scale* vernier, not a mechanical gear reduction. It's
> a piece of paper or plastic that costs about  .00001 cents!


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Wed Oct  1 07:27:46 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:27:46 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] 291 Schemo with LP/BP points on site now
Message-ID: <001301c387dc$c21de5c0$7ed74bab@default>

Hi gang,

I posted the schematic (redrawn from Mark Verbos' version) of the Buchla 291
schematic showing the LP and HP connections.

I also fixed the phase shifter and 291 filter samples so they come from
*both* speakers now, rather than just the left.  Hmmm.....no wonder Abbey
Road turned me down for that recording engineer's position.......

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/slsdiy/id11.html

Cheers,
Scott


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Wed Oct  1 08:11:07 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:11:07 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Buchla 291 Adaptation Sound Samples
Message-ID: <005401c387e2$cf055e20$7ed74bab@default>

Half an hour - sheez!  Now I see how powerful a sequencer and a quantizer
can be together, especially this pair - very impressive specs.

Thanks for the info (now I've finally heard the ensemble chorus, too!).

Ren? Schmitz  wrote:

> But the major contributor is the Analogic ACS Sequencers and the
> Quantizer. With these it is possible to fiddle with the knobs until you
> have something that sounds like music in a matter of minutes. (I don't
> consider myself a good musician, less composer.) I think it took me
> about half an hour.
>
> Cheers,
>   Ren?
>
>
> --
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>
>
>
>


From amajorel at teaser.fr  Wed Oct  1 12:25:31 2003
From: amajorel at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:25:31 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030929221320.00a8ba68@127.0.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030929221320.00a8ba68@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <20031001102531.GB18385@teaser.fr>

On 2003-09-29 22:50 -0600, Ian Fritz wrote:

> One of the most frustrating aspects (at least for me) of modular analog is 
> the great difficulty of reproducing patches after they have been torn 
> down.  A hybrid system where control parameters can be saved on disk drive 
> solves this problem, but at the cost of requiring a fixed architecture plus 
> interface construction and programming.
> 
> While thinking about this today, it occured to me that it might not be too 
> difficult to read knob positions quite accurately using a vernier 
> technique.  I'm talking not about mechanical gear-reduction verniers, but 
> rather simple scale verniers.  I've seen these used on old radios and lab 
> instruments but never on a synth.  They are also used on inexpensive 
> (non-dial) calipers, which are surprisingly precise.

Clever. But with a simple deskjet printer, you could print an
ordinary scale with 5 subdivisions per division (i.e. 1/50
precision) and that seems good enough for me (+/- 1%).

If it's a critical parameter, it might make more sense to write
down not the physical setting of the knob, but the actual
result. For example, by using a frequency counter or DVM on the
output of the module. This is more accurate and immune to
long-term and short-term drift.

I think it was Charles Twist who mentioned at the last meeting
making generic panels that just output CV. With that sort of
architecture, saving and restoring patches would be possible. Of
course, then you'd have to have a digitally controlled matrix
too.

-- 
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From martin at manikin.force9.co.uk  Wed Oct  1 12:38:01 2003
From: martin at manikin.force9.co.uk (Martin Fay)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 11:38:01 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] DIY in the family
In-Reply-To: <3F7A548D.3F894CB3@prodigy.net>
References: <oe8hnvgvnq099qigdb0retvjp6fs0vnt5n@4ax.com> <E1A4ERr-00029q-00@warpcore.tom> <ugpinvctd7vgpgm264osn8g6rv7i6j7io0@4ax.com> <3F7A548D.3F894CB3@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <phblnvkls0foj84ujomvibdvq37q1gqcq2@4ax.com>

Harry wrote:
>Two or more contacts could be used for velocity sensing....

If they contact at different times. Given these are organ keyboards
I'm expecting they are designed to contact at the same time. It will
be worth looking and checking though.


Martin

| VAZ virtual analogue synths | www.monosect.com
| www.software-technology.com | electronoiseclash


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Wed Oct  1 12:54:57 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:54:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EE3@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Harry,

your reply shows that you listened carefully to your 
results. These are exactly the problems I came across.

For such applications the usual circuits/ideas do not perform
too well, or they are even useless.

Your "eye" approach is into the same direction of what
I tryed, unfortunately this is a very intelligent
approach. For the human beeing it is not too hard
to draw the envelope, but automatons have problems...

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry 
> Bissell Jr
> Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2003 01:29
> To: Richard Wentk; Synth-DIY list
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
> 
> 
> OK then... lets make a formal definition  ;^P
> 
> The "envelope" of a signal is what your 'eye'
> would process looking at the rectified or absolute
> value of a signal.
> 
> The envelope would be a 'best fit' curve to that.
> 
> Single constant generators do not work (for me)
> I'm processing a guitar, which has the following
> nasty habits
> 
> 1) The positive and negative half cycles do not
> have equal amplitude... and this change is variable
> over time. Usually there is one large peak of one
> polarity, followed by two smaller peaks of the
> opposite
> polarity.
> 
> 2) The guitar has a normal exponential decay, but the
> decay time can be changed easily (on the fly) by
> adding
> damping to the strings in small or even large amounts.
> The biggest problem is that if you mute the strings...
> it will take forever for a single constant to get to
> the
> correct value.  The next note will start at the wrong
> value... maybe a too high value if the next note is
> more quiet.
> 
> The ripple vs speed tradeoff is a killer.  Any ripple
> (which the 'best fit' or 'eyeball' curve conveniently
> filters out) will cause noticible intermodulation
> distortion especially if you are using the CV to drive
> a filter.  Any lag will destroy the accuracy of the
> original waveform.  Now maybe your guitar, or drum
> has a real noticible attack time.
> 
> This is a real nightmare problem.  If I could stand
> it, 
> I'd think about running some delay in the signal to
> allow the circuit to 'look into the future' and
> adapt... but I fear even a millisecond is too much
> 
> H^) harry
> 
> 
> --- Richard Wentk <richard at skydancer.com> wrote:
> > At 13:08 30/09/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
> > > > If you're getting signal breakthrough it means
> > either there's
> > > > some signal
> > > > breakthrough in the circuit due to a design or
> > construction
> > > > fault, or the
> > > > filtering isn't working properly, or both. The
> > output should
> > > > be a slow *DC*
> > > > variation. There should be no effective signal
> > content above
> > > > 100Hz at the
> > > > very maximum, and 10Hz would be more typical for
> > many applications.
> > >
> > >That is a good question. A lowpass with 100Hz or
> > even 10Hz
> > >gives problems with signals that have a short
> > attack.
> > 
> > But are those problems severe enough to make a
> > musical difference? I can't 
> > think of many applications where a dual
> > time-constant standard follower 
> > circuit wouldn't produce useful results. And people
> > have been using single 
> > constant followers since Bob Moog's days without
> > worrying too much about it.
> > 
> > > > The only way to create a perfect envelope
> > follower is to do
> > > > it digitally in
> > > > non-real time, where you can go forward and
> > backtrack with an
> > > > adaptive
> > > > time-constant and some clever logic.
> > >
> > >This is what I tryed, now I found that I can not
> > write down
> > >a formal description of "envelope", because I do
> > not know
> > >what it really is.
> > >
> > >Like I said, I thought I knew exactly what it is
> > about, but
> > >when it comes to a formal description (algorithm) I
> > know
> > >nothing about.
> > 
> > That's because it's an ad hoc thing that doesn't
> > have a formal definition. 
> > However you do it you'll always have a trade-off
> > between responsiveness and 
> > accuracy, especially on transients.
> > 
> > If you want a digital interpretation, pick your time
> > constant, sample 
> > sections equivalent to its duration, calculate the
> > RMS value in each (not 
> > too hard digitally) and then interpolate the values
> > to create a curve. Use 
> > cubic instead of linear interpolation for a smoother
> > result.
> > 
> > For adaptive tracking lower the time constant by a
> > few factors whenever you 
> > see a transient (i.e. a very rapid change in RMS
> > level), shift the start of 
> > each RMS window to the beginning of the transient,
> > and then increase the 
> > time constant again during the release or decay
> > period. This won't track 
> > reverse transients but it will handle most other
> > things.
> > 
> > You can include a reverse transient check if you
> > want to get really picky.
> > 
> > This solution won't work in real time because
> > there's some lookahead and 
> > lookback is involved, but it will give you the best
> > possible results 
> > otherwise.
> > 
> > Richard
> > 
> > 
> 
> 


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Wed Oct  1 13:23:37 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:23:37 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4BE@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Ian, 
I think most people got your idea.
I also think that many people are interested
in finding old patches again.
I admit that your idea is cheap and it will work
for some people.

My eyesight is not so good, and I fear it won't get
any better. So *for me personally* it seems to be no sufficient
solution. Also I had/have always problems reading slide
rulers etc., I find it difficult to interpret the vernier
(even with better eyes). I also think that the 10 turn
dials are difficult to read.

Maybe other people prefer other approaches.

Perhaps larger dials are possible. More resolution, but also
more space.
There are knobs with a scale printed on them,
so the panel needs only an arrow (you can read
1.2, 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 and so on). These knobs are not cheap.
2.35 EUR each. See scale.jpg.

My idea of fine and coarse does of course not work.
Obviously the problem applies also to the coarse pot
which has also the most influence.

Perhaps a mixed approach is possible: the usuall scales 
and knobs for most modules, and a special atenuator
module that offers 10 turn, or large dials, or scaled knobs
or vernier knobs or digital pots.

The idea is that perhaps yoiu do not need high resolution 
everywhere at the same time.

If a standard level in a modular could be defined, like Juergen
proposed, many signal chains woul need no knobs at all, and if,
such a special 


Count.jpg shows a luxury version with good readblitiy.
My.jpg shows knobs I personally like the most.

Very good discussion on a important question.

m.c.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian Fritz [mailto:ijfritz at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2003 03:40
> To: Czech Martin; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
> 
> 
> At 10:15 AM 9/30/2003, Czech Martin wrote:
> >That's why some analog computers have 10 turn pots.
> >Together with the counter knobs this will cost
> >20$ per dial, ouch!
> >
> >OTOH, for critical applications it is the only way:
> >Concentric dual pots would be cool, but they are not available.
> >Old measurement gear has often a coarse pot/switch plus
> >a "vernier" pot.
> >I used a 12 step switch "coarse" with 1% resistors
> >plus vernier pot for some purpose. The steps are not equal,
> >to my dismay.
> >
> >
> >Another source of error: some people have a couple
> >of modules of the same type. Resistors have 1%,
> >but the usual pots have a loose correlation between
> >angle and resistance. A 1/10 ratio could mean 1.0
> >on one module, but maybe 1.2 on the other.
> >
> >So, not only the type of module and all dials
> >have to be noted, but also the actual "number"
> >of the module that was used.
> 
> I think most people could manage this without too much trouble.
> 
> >But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
> >finding an old patch is near to impossible.
> 
> I think that 7-bit resolution on all your controls (except 
> pitch) would 
> make it possible.  But it doesn't sound like anybody really cares.
> 
>    Ian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >m.c.
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ian Fritz [mailto:ijfritz at earthlink.net]
> > > Sent: Dienstag, 30. September 2003 15:52
> > > To: Czech Martin; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > > Subject: RE: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Martin --
> > >
> > > At 05:21 AM 9/30/2003, Czech Martin wrote:
> > >
> > > >Depends on how good your eyes are.
> > >
> > > True.  Mine are just so-so. It also depends on how large the
> > > knob is.  I
> > > made a linear vernier about 5 cm long (corresponding to a
> > > typical small
> > > synth knob) and I can easily set and read the vernier at my
> > > normal reading
> > > distance.  It has a much coarser scale than I've seen on the
> > > old radio
> > > verniers. I did it that way to make it fairly easy to
> > > construct.  You could
> > > copy the image I posted into a graphics program and reduce it
> > > to different
> > > sizes to see how it works for your eyes.
> > >
> > > >I guess some control voltage pathes are more
> > > >sensitive than others.
> > >
> > > Right.  But I think If you have a complex patch you may still
> > > want to get
> > > all the parameters quite accurately to avoid accumulated error.
> > >
> > > >What about a range switch together with the pot?
> > > >This will virtually increase the resolution of the pot.
> > > >It can be a 2 position, a 3 postion, or the usual
> > > >12 position switches depending on application.
> > >
> > > Well, I did mention that at the end of the post.  Myself, 
> I wouldn't
> > > consider that practical for every single control, but for
> > > some controls it
> > > would probably be necessary.  For example if you need to
> > > reproduce an FM
> > > patch, the frequency ratio needs to be very accurate.  
> The modulation
> > > amplitude I'm not sure about.  That could get tricky.
> > >
> > >    Ian
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
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From grichter at asapnet.net  Wed Oct  1 13:27:55 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 06:27:55 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EE3@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <BBA0246B.3E94F%grichter@asapnet.net>

Since this started as talking DSP...

Isn't the amplitude envelope the sum of all the harmonic (or inharmonic)
envelopes? That is, take an DFT, then sum the amplitudes in all the
frequency bins and divide by the number of frequency bins?

You would have to use a small number of frequency bins to get fast response.

BTW, I saw a PBS program that said Aristotle invented the theory of limits
in 300 B.C., since that forms the basis for the Calculus and was not
rediscovered until the 1700's, it looks like mathematics is about 2000 years
behind original schedule ;^)

> From: "Czech Martin" <Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:54:57 +0200
> To: "Harry Bissell Jr" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>, "Synth-DIY list"
> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
> 
> Harry,
> 
> your reply shows that you listened carefully to your
> results. These are exactly the problems I came across.
> 
> For such applications the usual circuits/ideas do not perform
> too well, or they are even useless.
> 
> Your "eye" approach is into the same direction of what
> I tryed, unfortunately this is a very intelligent
> approach. For the human beeing it is not too hard
> to draw the envelope, but automatons have problems...
> 
> m.c.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry
>> Bissell Jr
>> Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2003 01:29
>> To: Richard Wentk; Synth-DIY list
>> Subject: RE: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
>> 
>> 
>> OK then... lets make a formal definition  ;^P
>> 
>> The "envelope" of a signal is what your 'eye'
>> would process looking at the rectified or absolute
>> value of a signal.
>> 
>> The envelope would be a 'best fit' curve to that.
>> 
>> Single constant generators do not work (for me)
>> I'm processing a guitar, which has the following
>> nasty habits
>> 
>> 1) The positive and negative half cycles do not
>> have equal amplitude... and this change is variable
>> over time. Usually there is one large peak of one
>> polarity, followed by two smaller peaks of the
>> opposite
>> polarity.
>> 
>> 2) The guitar has a normal exponential decay, but the
>> decay time can be changed easily (on the fly) by
>> adding
>> damping to the strings in small or even large amounts.
>> The biggest problem is that if you mute the strings...
>> it will take forever for a single constant to get to
>> the
>> correct value.  The next note will start at the wrong
>> value... maybe a too high value if the next note is
>> more quiet.
>> 
>> The ripple vs speed tradeoff is a killer.  Any ripple
>> (which the 'best fit' or 'eyeball' curve conveniently
>> filters out) will cause noticible intermodulation
>> distortion especially if you are using the CV to drive
>> a filter.  Any lag will destroy the accuracy of the
>> original waveform.  Now maybe your guitar, or drum
>> has a real noticible attack time.
>> 
>> This is a real nightmare problem.  If I could stand
>> it, 
>> I'd think about running some delay in the signal to
>> allow the circuit to 'look into the future' and
>> adapt... but I fear even a millisecond is too much
>> 
>> H^) harry
>> 
>> 
>> --- Richard Wentk <richard at skydancer.com> wrote:
>>> At 13:08 30/09/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
>>>>> If you're getting signal breakthrough it means
>>> either there's
>>>>> some signal
>>>>> breakthrough in the circuit due to a design or
>>> construction
>>>>> fault, or the
>>>>> filtering isn't working properly, or both. The
>>> output should
>>>>> be a slow *DC*
>>>>> variation. There should be no effective signal
>>> content above
>>>>> 100Hz at the
>>>>> very maximum, and 10Hz would be more typical for
>>> many applications.
>>>> 
>>>> That is a good question. A lowpass with 100Hz or
>>> even 10Hz
>>>> gives problems with signals that have a short
>>> attack.
>>> 
>>> But are those problems severe enough to make a
>>> musical difference? I can't
>>> think of many applications where a dual
>>> time-constant standard follower
>>> circuit wouldn't produce useful results. And people
>>> have been using single
>>> constant followers since Bob Moog's days without
>>> worrying too much about it.
>>> 
>>>>> The only way to create a perfect envelope
>>> follower is to do
>>>>> it digitally in
>>>>> non-real time, where you can go forward and
>>> backtrack with an
>>>>> adaptive
>>>>> time-constant and some clever logic.
>>>> 
>>>> This is what I tryed, now I found that I can not
>>> write down
>>>> a formal description of "envelope", because I do
>>> not know
>>>> what it really is.
>>>> 
>>>> Like I said, I thought I knew exactly what it is
>>> about, but
>>>> when it comes to a formal description (algorithm) I
>>> know
>>>> nothing about.
>>> 
>>> That's because it's an ad hoc thing that doesn't
>>> have a formal definition.
>>> However you do it you'll always have a trade-off
>>> between responsiveness and
>>> accuracy, especially on transients.
>>> 
>>> If you want a digital interpretation, pick your time
>>> constant, sample
>>> sections equivalent to its duration, calculate the
>>> RMS value in each (not
>>> too hard digitally) and then interpolate the values
>>> to create a curve. Use
>>> cubic instead of linear interpolation for a smoother
>>> result.
>>> 
>>> For adaptive tracking lower the time constant by a
>>> few factors whenever you
>>> see a transient (i.e. a very rapid change in RMS
>>> level), shift the start of
>>> each RMS window to the beginning of the transient,
>>> and then increase the
>>> time constant again during the release or decay
>>> period. This won't track
>>> reverse transients but it will handle most other
>>> things.
>>> 
>>> You can include a reverse transient check if you
>>> want to get really picky.
>>> 
>>> This solution won't work in real time because
>>> there's some lookahead and
>>> lookback is involved, but it will give you the best
>>> possible results
>>> otherwise.
>>> 
>>> Richard
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 


From richard at skydancer.com  Wed Oct  1 13:32:20 2003
From: richard at skydancer.com (Richard Wentk)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:32:20 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
In-Reply-To: <20030930232840.29891.qmail@web80204.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930121344.03851938@mail.which.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031001004032.026bd0b8@mail.which.net>

At 16:28 30/09/2003 -0700, Harry Bissell Jr wrote:
>OK then... lets make a formal definition  ;^P
>
>The "envelope" of a signal is what your 'eye'
>would process looking at the rectified or absolute
>value of a signal.

But this depends on horizontal zoom level!  You're going to see variations 
depending on how you display the signal.

>Single constant generators do not work (for me)
>I'm processing a guitar, which has the following
>nasty habits
>
>1) The positive and negative half cycles do not
>have equal amplitude... and this change is variable
>over time. Usually there is one large peak of one
>polarity, followed by two smaller peaks of the
>opposite
>polarity.

Okay, but an RMS approximation to this would still give a useful signal, if 
maybe not a perfectly accurate one.

>2) The guitar has a normal exponential decay, but the
>decay time can be changed easily (on the fly) by
>adding
>damping to the strings in small or even large amounts.
>The biggest problem is that if you mute the strings...
>it will take forever for a single constant to get to
>the
>correct value.  The next note will start at the wrong
>value... maybe a too high value if the next note is
>more quiet.

You could control this with transient detection/processing.

>The ripple vs speed tradeoff is a killer.  Any ripple
>(which the 'best fit' or 'eyeball' curve conveniently
>filters out) will cause noticible intermodulation
>distortion especially if you are using the CV to drive
>a filter.  Any lag will destroy the accuracy of the
>original waveform.  Now maybe your guitar, or drum
>has a real noticible attack time.
>
>This is a real nightmare problem.  If I could stand
>it,
>I'd think about running some delay in the signal to
>allow the circuit to 'look into the future' and
>adapt... but I fear even a millisecond is too much

That's why it's best done digitally. :-)

Still - you can get *useful* results from a plain old rectifier/smoother 
circuit. This may not be accurate in engineering terms, but you can still 
do creative and musically relevant things with it

There are also various PPM/RMS metering circuits which (literally) produce 
a good approximation of how your eyes would like to see volume changes.

If the standard simple circuit isn't working for you, one of those would be 
the next step.

Richard



From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  1 15:44:34 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:44:34 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <3F7A55D9.77DE88F5@prodigy.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930193631.00aa3128@127.0.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030930213413.00a84f78@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031001073801.00a940d0@127.0.0.1>

At 10:19 PM 9/30/2003, harrybissell wrote:
>The scale vernier could be paper... or could be a very expensive
>Front Panel Express engraving.  Might not be 'that' easy to make.

Agreed.  Right now I'm just checking to see how hard this is to do with a 
drawing program and a printer.

>(Ian... I think a lot of folks here have not played with slide rules
>or vernier marked calipers.  Come to think of it... I haven't
>played with a slide rule either :^)

Understood. That's why I posted the demo page.  All you need is a pair of 
scissors and 5 minutes to see how it works.  Guess I should have made an 
animated presentation.

>I'd like to see what the knob looks like. Seems you'd want to
>buy those.

Right now I'm just thinking of gluing the small vernier scale onto the 
skirt of the knob.  A custom knob would be nice, but its vernier scale 
would have to match the panel scale properly.

>Maybe we could all 'agree' on a custom knob and then
>buy a bunch as a group
>
>sorry, what was I thinking...   :^P

LOL!

Regards,

   Ian


From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  1 15:53:20 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:53:20 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <20031001102531.GB18385@teaser.fr>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030929221320.00a8ba68@127.0.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030929221320.00a8ba68@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031001074441.00a93e28@127.0.0.1>

At 04:25 AM 10/1/2003, Andre Majorel wrote:

>On 2003-09-29 22:50 -0600, Ian Fritz wrote:
>
>Clever. But with a simple deskjet printer, you could print an
>ordinary scale with 5 subdivisions per division (i.e. 1/50
>precision) and that seems good enough for me (+/- 1%).

True, you can get 1% that way.  But for my old eyes that would take a 
fairly large diameter knob.  The vernier technique gives better resolution 
for a given knob diameter.

>If it's a critical parameter, it might make more sense to write
>down not the physical setting of the knob, but the actual
>result. For example, by using a frequency counter or DVM on the
>output of the module. This is more accurate and immune to
>long-term and short-term drift.

Well, if your synth has voltage control of every parameter, then yes, you 
could bring each control voltage out and measure it.  But what would you do 
for your EG attack and decay times if they are set by resistance rather 
than voltage?  Photograph the envelope off a scope, perhaps.

Interesting to think about all the options!

   Ian


From patchell at cox.net  Wed Oct  1 15:54:11 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 06:54:11 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <3F7A515F.214D9861@prodigy.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030930173902.00b1cdc0@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031001065029.00b1d020@pop.west.cox.net>

But my panels are densely packed...on a given panel, the number of jacks 
and pots are finite, so compromises are the order of the day.  Seems like I 
can always come up with things to put on a panel...finding space for them 
is a problem.

At 12:00 AM 10/1/2003 -0400, harrybissell wrote:
>OTOH... 10 turn pots means slow changes.  Its like the difference between
>the ARP Odyssey and the MiniMoog... the Minimoog excels in quick changes
>because of the octave switch... but the Ody will allow slow fades over large
>intervals with the sliders.
>
>IMHO I like to have both.  How about Coarse, Fine, AND an octave switch.
>
>I've SEEN your panels (at least photos) Jim... its not like they are densely
>packed or anything :^P
>
>H^) harry
>
>James Patchell wrote:
>
> > At 06:15 PM 9/30/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
> > >That's why some analog computers have 10 turn pots.
> > >Together with the counter knobs this will cost
> > >20$ per dial, ouch!
> >
> > You know, even at $20 each for the 10 turn pots and counter knobs, I feel
> > that is money well spent.  It sure makes setting the VCO pitch a lot
> > easier, even easier than say a coarse and fine pot, although, probably
> > using a rotary switch to select the octave, and a fine pot to set the pitch
> > in that octave would not be too bad, but, that all takes up valuable panel
> > space.  For the time being, I am sticking with the ten turn pots until I
> > come up with something I like better.
> >
> > >OTOH, for critical applications it is the only way:
> > >Concentric dual pots would be cool, but they are not available.
> > >Old measurement gear has often a coarse pot/switch plus
> > >a "vernier" pot.
> > >I used a 12 step switch "coarse" with 1% resistors
> > >plus vernier pot for some purpose. The steps are not equal,
> > >to my dismay.
> > >
> > >
> > >Another source of error: some people have a couple
> > >of modules of the same type. Resistors have 1%,
> > >but the usual pots have a loose correlation between
> > >angle and resistance. A 1/10 ratio could mean 1.0
> > >on one module, but maybe 1.2 on the other.
> > >
> > >So, not only the type of module and all dials
> > >have to be noted, but also the actual "number"
> > >of the module that was used.
> > >
> > >But you are right, this unacuracy is the reason why
> > >finding an old patch is near to impossible.
> > >
> > >m.c.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ian Fritz [mailto:ijfritz at earthlink.net]
> > > > Sent: Dienstag, 30. September 2003 15:52
> > > > To: Czech Martin; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > > > Subject: RE: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Martin --
> > > >
> > > > At 05:21 AM 9/30/2003, Czech Martin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Depends on how good your eyes are.
> > > >
> > > > True.  Mine are just so-so. It also depends on how large the
> > > > knob is.  I
> > > > made a linear vernier about 5 cm long (corresponding to a
> > > > typical small
> > > > synth knob) and I can easily set and read the vernier at my
> > > > normal reading
> > > > distance.  It has a much coarser scale than I've seen on the
> > > > old radio
> > > > verniers. I did it that way to make it fairly easy to
> > > > construct.  You could
> > > > copy the image I posted into a graphics program and reduce it
> > > > to different
> > > > sizes to see how it works for your eyes.
> > > >
> > > > >I guess some control voltage pathes are more
> > > > >sensitive than others.
> > > >
> > > > Right.  But I think If you have a complex patch you may still
> > > > want to get
> > > > all the parameters quite accurately to avoid accumulated error.
> > > >
> > > > >What about a range switch together with the pot?
> > > > >This will virtually increase the resolution of the pot.
> > > > >It can be a 2 position, a 3 postion, or the usual
> > > > >12 position switches depending on application.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I did mention that at the end of the post.  Myself, I wouldn't
> > > > consider that practical for every single control, but for
> > > > some controls it
> > > > would probably be necessary.  For example if you need to
> > > > reproduce an FM
> > > > patch, the frequency ratio needs to be very accurate.  The modulation
> > > > amplitude I'm not sure about.  That could get tricky.
> > > >
> > > >    Ian
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >          -Jim
> > ***************************************************
> > I'm a man
> > But I can change
> > If I have to
> > I guess.
> >
> > Man's Prayer
> > Red Green
> >
> > ***************************************************
> > http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
> >
> > http://members.cox.net/patchell
> >
> > ***************************************************

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  1 16:02:06 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 08:02:06 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4BE@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.
 com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031001075352.00a9ea60@127.0.0.1>

At 05:23 AM 10/1/2003, Czech Martin wrote:

>My eyesight is not so good, and I fear it won't get
>any better. So *for me personally* it seems to be no sufficient
>solution. Also I had/have always problems reading slide
>rulers etc., I find it difficult to interpret the vernier
>(even with better eyes). I also think that the 10 turn
>dials are difficult to read.

I certainly sympathize with eyesight limitations.  The scales I've been 
experimenting with seem about as easy to read as ordinary print.  I'm 
deliberately keeping them fairly coarse, to avoid having to get real close 
and squint, like I have to do with my vernier calipers..

>Perhaps larger dials are possible. More resolution, but also
>more space.
>There are knobs with a scale printed on them,
>so the panel needs only an arrow (you can read
>1.2, 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 and so on). These knobs are not cheap.
>2.35 EUR each. See scale.jpg.

Those are nice looking knobs.  But they are expensive and take up quite a 
bit of real estate.  How big are they?

>My idea of fine and coarse does of course not work.
>Obviously the problem applies also to the coarse pot
>which has also the most influence.
>
>Perhaps a mixed approach is possible: the usuall scales
>and knobs for most modules, and a special atenuator
>module that offers 10 turn, or large dials, or scaled knobs
>or vernier knobs or digital pots.
>
>The idea is that perhaps yoiu do not need high resolution
>everywhere at the same time.

Right.  No need to do everything exactly the same way.

   Ian


From music.maker at gte.net  Wed Oct  1 16:27:22 2003
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:27:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
Message-ID: <200310011427.h91ERM614106@linux6.lan>

Hey Martin and Harry,

Pardon my lame observation, but it looks to me like the problem
is that process needs to know the true length of a cycle.  That
is, in order to avoid recognizing a cycle's secondary peaks as
primary peaks.  Almost as if a PLL is needed in the algorithm to
mark out a cycle.  While this might not work in a practical
circuit, it might be useful in a non real time algorithm.

Then again, it is early here and I'm just sipping my first cup of
coffee.  So I hope I've at least amused, if not helped and
hopefully not annoyed...  Anyway, interesting stuff.  I'm all eyes.

"Czech Martin" <Martin.Czech at micronas.com> wrote:
>Harry,
>
>your reply shows that you listened carefully to your 
>results. These are exactly the problems I came across.
>
>For such applications the usual circuits/ideas do not perform
>too well, or they are even useless.
>
>Your "eye" approach is into the same direction of what
>I tryed, unfortunately this is a very intelligent
>approach. For the human beeing it is not too hard
>to draw the envelope, but automatons have problems...
>
>m.c.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry 
>> Bissell Jr
>> Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2003 01:29
>> To: Richard Wentk; Synth-DIY list
>> Subject: RE: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
>> 
>> 
>> OK then... lets make a formal definition  ;^P
>> 
>> The "envelope" of a signal is what your 'eye'
>> would process looking at the rectified or absolute
>> value of a signal.
>> 
>> The envelope would be a 'best fit' curve to that.
>> 
>> Single constant generators do not work (for me)
>> I'm processing a guitar, which has the following
>> nasty habits
>> 
>> 1) The positive and negative half cycles do not
>> have equal amplitude... and this change is variable
>> over time. Usually there is one large peak of one
>> polarity, followed by two smaller peaks of the
>> opposite
>> polarity.
>> 
>> 2) The guitar has a normal exponential decay, but the
>> decay time can be changed easily (on the fly) by
>> adding
>> damping to the strings in small or even large amounts.
>> The biggest problem is that if you mute the strings...
>> it will take forever for a single constant to get to
>> the
>> correct value.  The next note will start at the wrong
>> value... maybe a too high value if the next note is
>> more quiet.
>> 
>> The ripple vs speed tradeoff is a killer.  Any ripple
>> (which the 'best fit' or 'eyeball' curve conveniently
>> filters out) will cause noticible intermodulation
>> distortion especially if you are using the CV to drive
>> a filter.  Any lag will destroy the accuracy of the
>> original waveform.  Now maybe your guitar, or drum
>> has a real noticible attack time.
>> 
>> This is a real nightmare problem.  If I could stand
>> it, 
>> I'd think about running some delay in the signal to
>> allow the circuit to 'look into the future' and
>> adapt... but I fear even a millisecond is too much
>> 
>> H^) harry
>> 
>> 
>> --- Richard Wentk <richard at skydancer.com> wrote:
>> > At 13:08 30/09/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
>> > > > If you're getting signal breakthrough it means
>> > either there's
>> > > > some signal
>> > > > breakthrough in the circuit due to a design or
>> > construction
>> > > > fault, or the
>> > > > filtering isn't working properly, or both. The
>> > output should
>> > > > be a slow *DC*
>> > > > variation. There should be no effective signal
>> > content above
>> > > > 100Hz at the
>> > > > very maximum, and 10Hz would be more typical for
>> > many applications.
>> > >
>> > >That is a good question. A lowpass with 100Hz or
>> > even 10Hz
>> > >gives problems with signals that have a short
>> > attack.
>> > 
>> > But are those problems severe enough to make a
>> > musical difference? I can't 
>> > think of many applications where a dual
>> > time-constant standard follower 
>> > circuit wouldn't produce useful results. And people
>> > have been using single 
>> > constant followers since Bob Moog's days without
>> > worrying too much about it.
>> > 
>> > > > The only way to create a perfect envelope
>> > follower is to do
>> > > > it digitally in
>> > > > non-real time, where you can go forward and
>> > backtrack with an
>> > > > adaptive
>> > > > time-constant and some clever logic.
>> > >
>> > >This is what I tryed, now I found that I can not
>> > write down
>> > >a formal description of "envelope", because I do
>> > not know
>> > >what it really is.
>> > >
>> > >Like I said, I thought I knew exactly what it is
>> > about, but
>> > >when it comes to a formal description (algorithm) I
>> > know
>> > >nothing about.
>> > 
>> > That's because it's an ad hoc thing that doesn't
>> > have a formal definition. 
>> > However you do it you'll always have a trade-off
>> > between responsiveness and 
>> > accuracy, especially on transients.
>> > 
>> > If you want a digital interpretation, pick your time
>> > constant, sample 
>> > sections equivalent to its duration, calculate the
>> > RMS value in each (not 
>> > too hard digitally) and then interpolate the values
>> > to create a curve. Use 
>> > cubic instead of linear interpolation for a smoother
>> > result.
>> > 
>> > For adaptive tracking lower the time constant by a
>> > few factors whenever you 
>> > see a transient (i.e. a very rapid change in RMS
>> > level), shift the start of 
>> > each RMS window to the beginning of the transient,
>> > and then increase the 
>> > time constant again during the release or decay
>> > period. This won't track 
>> > reverse transients but it will handle most other
>> > things.
>> > 
>> > You can include a reverse transient check if you
>> > want to get really picky.
>> > 
>> > This solution won't work in real time because
>> > there's some lookahead and 
>> > lookback is involved, but it will give you the best
>> > possible results 
>> > otherwise.
>> > 
>> > Richard
>> > 
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>

=========================================================  
- Where merit is not rewarded, excellence fades.
- Hydrogen is pointless without solar.
- What good are laws that only lawyers understand?
- The media's credibility should always be questioned.
- Governments do nothing well, save collect taxes.

-- Scott Gravenhorst | LegoManiac / Lego Trains / RIS 1.5
-- Linux Rex         | RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FatMan/
-- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/


From Mididood at aol.com  Wed Oct  1 16:31:48 2003
From: Mididood at aol.com (Mididood at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:31:48 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] OT -Digest Mode?
Message-ID: <17d.20ff46fb.2cac3f54@aol.com>

Help!

Can one get this list in a daily digest mode on an automatic basis?
It seems from the main page that it has to be requested each and every 
day!?!?!?

I've emailed the list admin last week and haven't heard back - apologize in 
advance for the OT bandwidth...

Perhaps I'm being dumb here - sorry for that - I'm just not familiar with 
this lists format yet...it nothing likes Yahoo's, etc...

Any help would be greatly appreciated so that my inbox don't get clogged!

Thanks,

Roger 
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From debus at cityweb.de  Wed Oct  1 16:34:08 2003
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:34:08 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <20031001102531.GB18385@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <5126316D-F41C-11D7-9185-000A9571C136@cityweb.de>


Am Mittwoch, 01.10.03 um 12:25 Uhr schrieb Andre Majorel:

> If it's a critical parameter, it might make more sense to write
> down not the physical setting of the knob, but the actual
> result. For example, by using a frequency counter or DVM on the
> output of the module. This is more accurate and immune to
> long-term and short-term drift.
>

How about this one:
Replace each pot with a tandem (stereo) pot. The second half of the pot 
just generates a voltage proportional to the pot setting (of course the 
tandem pot is not required if the pot already does that). Build a cheap 
digital voltmeter into the module (or synth) and a selector switch. 
Then you can read each pot's setting quite accurately.

Ingo


From debus at cityweb.de  Wed Oct  1 16:34:13 2003
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:34:13 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <3F7A515F.214D9861@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <543755F4-F41C-11D7-9185-000A9571C136@cityweb.de>


Am Mittwoch, 01.10.03 um 06:00 Uhr schrieb harrybissell:

> OTOH... 10 turn pots means slow changes.  Its like the difference 
> between
> the ARP Odyssey and the MiniMoog... the Minimoog excels in quick 
> changes
> because of the octave switch... but the Ody will allow slow fades over 
> large
> intervals with the sliders.
>
> IMHO I like to have both.  How about Coarse, Fine, AND an octave 
> switch.
>

I saw a clever solution on the Hohner RD500, an early digital 
reverb/delay unit. Basically it's one knob but two pots. Normally you 
turn the "fine" pot, but when you reach the limit you can turn the knob 
further with a little more torque: then the "coarse" pot is turned. 
This was used for the delay time setting, the absolute value was 
displayed on a three-digit 7-segment in milliseconds. You could dial in 
any value quickly and easily. I liked this much better than the usual 
endless-knob/"mouse accelerator"-approach.

This could be DIYed too. Just mount the "fine" pot on the axis of the 
"coarse" pot. Use a pot that requires a higher torque as "coarse" pot.

Ingo


From jmahoney at gate.net  Wed Oct  1 16:34:37 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:34:37 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030930193631.00aa3128@127.0.0.1> <009301c387ca$71d00e70$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST> <3F7A52C0.5B8D1E0B@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <009801c38829$2449aa30$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

> The "digital" pots could be used for everything... that you could compress
into
> a 0-5V or 0-3.3V range. By prescaling with opamps... or (as JH might
propose
> -he has in the past) ... not making the signals larger than they need to
be in
> the first place
> maybe 0.5V amplitude... those digital pots could work fine.  No need for
VCAs to
> use them

This is a great point: design for programmability in the first place. But
who is doing so? We are saddled with years of tradition (mostly 0-5V).


> I bet a lot of you modular people would not be happy with 7 bit
resolution...
> the pots
> on a Prophet V are seven bit...and they zipper noticibly.  Willing to go
there
> with your modular.

No, that's not quite enough. The AD digipots have 6 and 8 bits, but you can
use coarse and fine pots in series to get around 11 or 12 bit resolution,
which is more control than most of us can manage with a standard pot.
(Separate coarse & fine analog pots may provide better than 12-bit
precision.)


> Pots are reasonably cheap, quiet, etc.

True, Harry, but pots are stupid! <G> There is no way easy to make them
programmable.


Does anybody know how moving faders are implemented on mixers? This
technology was once found only on the high end consoles (e.g., Neve's Flying
Faders (TM)), but costs have apparently come down. Still not cheap, I am
sure.

I'd also like to know how programmability was done on the Prophet -- has
anybody got a link to that?
--
john


From daniel.araya at sr.se  Wed Oct  1 17:36:13 2003
From: daniel.araya at sr.se (Daniel Araya)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:36:13 +0200
Subject: Ang: Re: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
Message-ID: <sf7b10ac.018@gwia.sr.se>

>>> "john mahoney" <jmahoney at gate.net> 2003-10-01 16:34:37 >>>

>Does anybody know how moving faders are implemented on mixers? This
>technology was once found only on the high end consoles (e.g., Neve's
Flying
>Faders (TM)), but costs have apparently come down. Still not cheap, I
am
>sure.


Check out http://www.ucapps.de/ , they have a midifader-module
(MF-Module) to their diy customizable midicontroller.
It would be easy to control some analog circuitry along with the
motorfaders for a fully programmable and morphable module that could be
used standalone and with MIDI! ...or a small anlog mixingdesk with
automation maybe... :)
The new OS from ucapps.de (MIOS) is fully customizable but it propably
takes good programming skills to achieve more custom designs. The
MF-module has 10 bit resoulution I think , that would be enough.

/Daniel, Sweden


From chris at scp.de  Wed Oct  1 18:16:01 2003
From: chris at scp.de (ChristianH)
Date: Wed,  1 Oct 2003 18:16:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Scratchy CDs
In-Reply-To: <E34D99E8-EF5F-11D7-A80E-000A9571C136@cityweb.de>
References: <007901c381eb$4cc62ea0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST> <E34D99E8-EF5F-11D7-A80E-000A9571C136@cityweb.de>
Message-ID: <20031001161601.B911446810F@mail.scp.de>

Hai again,

I did some spec digging, and now it's getting a bit clearer.
There are several levels of CD error correction. 

There is the low level parity check (well, actually it's two parity
checks in a row) in each frame, which contains 6 stereo samples. It takes
588 channel bits (pit/land bits) to code those 6 samples (192 payload
bits) - that's quite a ratio...

Then there are blocks aka sectors.
- On a red book audio CD these blocks are completely used by audio data
(2352 data bytes, containing 1/75 sec of audio data, plus sub-channel
data), without any further ECC.
- On a CD-ROM those 2352 data bytes are divided into 2048 user data
bytes and 288 high level ECC bytes (plus some sync and header stuff).

So, it's good to know, that burning audio as WAV or AIFF should benefit
>from additional CD-ROM error correction safety. That should be able to
cope with those small scale errors I had seen with some audio CDs.

And for the question, whether ripping an audio track does error
correction - I think it's safe to assume that low level correction does take
place, but high level correction can't be used - it's simply not present
on an audio CD.

Christian



On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:55:14 +0200 Ingo Debus wrote:

> 
> Am Dienstag, 23.09.03 um 17:56 Uhr schrieb john mahoney:
> 
> >
> >>> The error correction process for an audio CD ...
> >>
> >> Does this error correction also work when a track is "ripped" (or
> >> however it's called) via a CD-ROM drive in a computer? ...
> >
> > Eerror correction is part of the Red Book spec for audio CDs. So yes, 
> > it is
> > there on writeable CDs, too. The usual burn errors are not due to a 
> > simple
> > lack of error correction code.
> >
> 
> I didn't mean burn errors. I was talking about errors that occur when a 
> track is read from an audio CD (not necessarily a CD-R) onto a 
> computer's hard disk.
> 
> Ingo


From steiseim at online.no  Wed Oct  1 19:11:25 2003
From: steiseim at online.no (Stein Seim)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 19:11:25 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Formant
Message-ID: <002101c3883f$0c6d1b20$c41dfea9@no1music>

Hi!

Anybody knows where to get pcb's for my Formanr Synth?
Could always etch and drill, but.....

Soon there will be a new synthsite in the block.

Thanks in advance
Stein Seim



From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Wed Oct  1 19:52:17 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:52:17 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <009801c38829$2449aa30$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCAELDCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

I am pretty sure that moving pots use an armature on the wiper which is
pulsed  to step along a rail of fixed magnets located along the side of the
device. Basically a linear stepper motor.


MB


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of john mahoney
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:35 AM
To: harrybissell
Cc: Czech Martin; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl; Ian Fritz
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording


> The "digital" pots could be used for everything... that you could compress
into
> a 0-5V or 0-3.3V range. By prescaling with opamps... or (as JH might
propose
> -he has in the past) ... not making the signals larger than they need to
be in
> the first place
> maybe 0.5V amplitude... those digital pots could work fine.  No need for
VCAs to
> use them

This is a great point: design for programmability in the first place. But
who is doing so? We are saddled with years of tradition (mostly 0-5V).


> I bet a lot of you modular people would not be happy with 7 bit
resolution...
> the pots
> on a Prophet V are seven bit...and they zipper noticibly.  Willing to go
there
> with your modular.

No, that's not quite enough. The AD digipots have 6 and 8 bits, but you can
use coarse and fine pots in series to get around 11 or 12 bit resolution,
which is more control than most of us can manage with a standard pot.
(Separate coarse & fine analog pots may provide better than 12-bit
precision.)


> Pots are reasonably cheap, quiet, etc.

True, Harry, but pots are stupid! <G> There is no way easy to make them
programmable.


Does anybody know how moving faders are implemented on mixers? This
technology was once found only on the high end consoles (e.g., Neve's Flying
Faders (TM)), but costs have apparently come down. Still not cheap, I am
sure.

I'd also like to know how programmability was done on the Prophet -- has
anybody got a link to that?
--
john




____________________________________________________________
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From makoot at gmx.net  Wed Oct  1 21:11:21 2003
From: makoot at gmx.net (MAKoot MAKoot)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:11:21 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [sdiy] cutting down to "line level"
Message-ID: <8312.1065035481@www22.gmx.net>

Hi all,
I know there was a certain posting a few weeks ago about creating the final
panel of a modular system (the panel which leads to an amplifier for
example), but I haven't noticed actually anything about bringing down the coltage to
"line" standards. Or actually the method in which that is done.
Is this done simply with splitting the Synth-Voltage over 2 resistors and
configuring the resistors to create an eff. Top-voltage of 200mv? Or is it done
with feeding the signal into an Opamp which lowers the signal to tops 200mv?
How do most people here have the transformation of the 10V Synth level to
line-standards?

cheers,
Michiel

-- 
NEU F?R ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - f?r Fotos, Musik, Dateien...
Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gru?, GMX FotoService

Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net

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From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Wed Oct  1 21:22:32 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:22:32 -0700 
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D750@SBIEXCHANGE>

A linear motor arrangement is probably what the *VERY* expensive pro
motorized faders use. I have seen less expensive ones (I think Mouser or
Digi-Key sells a Panasonic motorized fader) and I think these use a rotary
motor and string/pulley type arrangement.

Tim Servo




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Boracci [mailto:mboracci at nfpcomputer.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:52 AM
> To: john mahoney
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
> 
> I am pretty sure that moving pots use an armature on the wiper which is
> pulsed  to step along a rail of fixed magnets located along the side of
> the
> device. Basically a linear stepper motor.
> 
> 
> MB
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of john mahoney
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:35 AM
> To: harrybissell
> Cc: Czech Martin; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl; Ian Fritz
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
> 
> 
> > The "digital" pots could be used for everything... that you could
> compress
> into
> > a 0-5V or 0-3.3V range. By prescaling with opamps... or (as JH might
> propose
> > -he has in the past) ... not making the signals larger than they need to
> be in
> > the first place
> > maybe 0.5V amplitude... those digital pots could work fine.  No need for
> VCAs to
> > use them
> 
> This is a great point: design for programmability in the first place. But
> who is doing so? We are saddled with years of tradition (mostly 0-5V).
> 
> 
> > I bet a lot of you modular people would not be happy with 7 bit
> resolution...
> > the pots
> > on a Prophet V are seven bit...and they zipper noticibly.  Willing to go
> there
> > with your modular.
> 
> No, that's not quite enough. The AD digipots have 6 and 8 bits, but you
> can
> use coarse and fine pots in series to get around 11 or 12 bit resolution,
> which is more control than most of us can manage with a standard pot.
> (Separate coarse & fine analog pots may provide better than 12-bit
> precision.)
> 
> 
> > Pots are reasonably cheap, quiet, etc.
> 
> True, Harry, but pots are stupid! <G> There is no way easy to make them
> programmable.
> 
> 
> Does anybody know how moving faders are implemented on mixers? This
> technology was once found only on the high end consoles (e.g., Neve's
> Flying
> Faders (TM)), but costs have apparently come down. Still not cheap, I am
> sure.
> 
> I'd also like to know how programmability was done on the Prophet -- has
> anybody got a link to that?
> --
> john
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
> Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/



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From daugard at sprintmail.com  Wed Oct  1 21:40:58 2003
From: daugard at sprintmail.com (TIm Daugard)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:40:58 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] cutting down to "line level"
References: <8312.1065035481@www22.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <006601c38853$f0ee0660$4258fea9@desktop2>


> I know there was a certain posting a few weeks ago about creating the final
> panel of a modular system (the panel which leads to an amplifier for
> example), but I haven't noticed actually anything about bringing down the
coltage to
> "line" standards. Or actually the method in which that is done.

I use an opamp to buffer with a variable gain of less than 1. This is followed
by a filter network to filter out sub- and super- sonic noise, oscillations etc.
THe filter output feeds an AC coupled signal referenced to the modular system
ground rail.

The filter was added after destroying a speaker with a signal I couldn't hear.

Tim Daugard




From John.Speth at coherentinc.com  Wed Oct  1 21:46:23 2003
From: John.Speth at coherentinc.com (Speth, John)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:46:23 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] cutting down to "line level"
Message-ID: <CE2153093AF2AD4A8EB4B8131858BB8C015F15@porexc01.na.coherentinc.com>

> How do most people here have the transformation of the 10V 
> Synth level to
> line-standards?

I've had great luck with using 2 resistors soldered inside a passive attenuator assembly made of a 1/4 plug to 1/4 inline socket with a coax in between.  The series resistor goes in the socket and the shunt resistor goes in the plug.  The modular system voltage levels are so high that it's easy to select resistors that hardly affect the output impedance.


John Speth


From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Wed Oct  1 21:54:13 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:54:13 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
In-Reply-To: <1065032089.1160.49329.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

(from a thread on the CGS list)

Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"

Howdy!

This thread touches on a thought I've had for some time about
Concept modules with a built-in modem and phone jack in the back...

Imagine a module called WALL STREET featuring rows of output jacks
that present control voltages reflecting the actual realworld
realtime status of parameters such as the Dow Jones Industrial Average,
and other stocks.  You could have a whole smorgesboard of outputs
for the stocks and stock exchanges of your choice:
the NASDAC, Apple, Microsoft, spyders, etc.

I've entertained the idea of posting such live information
automatically on a page at my website, and equipping such modules
with built-in modems that could automatically log onto that special
web page to update themselves periodically.

"I'm sorry I couldn't call because my modular was on the phone!"

If one were to get really diabolical or "Bill Gates" about it,
one could charge for a monthly ~subscription~ to such modules...

"The modules are free, but the they won't do anything without
your credit card number!" LOL!

Perhaps a more nurturing application of this is the concept of
"Green Voltages" With a Module titled MOTHER EARTH that might
feature rows of output jacks featuring the present rate of
Global Warming, seismic activity, ocean currents, missing ozone,
etc...

Imagine a limited edition dedicated to the US 2004
presidential election  (Yikes!)

The possibilities are endless!

I recently saw a company manufacturing an entire modem built
right into the space inside the phone jack itself.
so this sort of idea is not so far fetched.

As you were!

Cynthia

http://www.cyndustries.com


> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:28:57 -0000
> From: "spgjmf"
> Subject: Re: Discreet Music a la cgs modules
> 
> 
> hey weather station, thats a good idea...
> I was thinking of all these little senors to build, but maybe
> a weather station can be adapted....
> 
> hmmm
> 
> thanks for the insight!
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 
> --- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, Richard Brewster < wrote:
>> You can find lots of remote weather stations for sale.  A weather
>> station could probably be adapted for control use.  Interesting idea.

>> -Richard Brewster
>> 
>> At 10:57 PM 9/27/03 +0000, Fernando wrote:
>>> All sounds fine to me, but:
>>> if you want to use environment as a source of control, I think
>>> you should use sensors to get that voltages and control whatever
>>> generators, processors... the nature would be your 1/f generator
>>> in that case. If the CVs you extract are interesting enough (and
>>> to what you apply them) you may want to keep them as expressive
>>> as they are instead of dissolve that data in to a random system...
>>> Just my thoughts about it...
>>> Keep inspired!
>>> Fernando
>>> 
>>> --- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, "
>>> wrote:
>>>> well that is very cool.
>>>> any chance you might be able to send a pic to me of the panel.
>>>> just want to
>>>> see the gear :-)
>>>> 
>>>> I have been thinking for many yesrs about "environmental "
>>> music.
>>>> taking stimulus from the environment ( temp, humitity, wind,
>>>> light...) and creating "music" from these. sound like the
>>>> IM and the diatonic conv must be a useful thing to that effect.
>>>> 
>>>> thanks for the reply
>>>> 
>>>> JEff
>>>> 


From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Wed Oct  1 22:05:51 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:05:51 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031001074441.00a93e28@127.0.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030929221320.00a8ba68@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20031001074441.00a93e28@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <03100122055102.00672@Robert>

On Wednesday 01 October 2003 15:53, Ian Fritz wrote:
> Well, if your synth has voltage control of every parameter, then yes,
> you could bring each control voltage out and measure it.  But what
> would you do for your EG attack and decay times if they are set by
> resistance rather than voltage?  Photograph the envelope off a scope,
> perhaps.

In that case it is probably easier to measure the timing of the 
envelope itself, especially if you can bring out the trigger, gate and 
comparator results as a logic signal.


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

Q series MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfQDocs



From don at till.com  Wed Oct  1 23:41:09 2003
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: 01 Oct 2003 14:41:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030929221320.00a8ba68@127.0.0.1> (message from Ian
	Fritz on Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:50:21 -0600)
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030929221320.00a8ba68@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <m2fzicmya2.fsf@till.com>


For your entertainment, here's how I would do it.

This is for the situation typically found in a classic modular VCO; a
number of inputs, an input level control pot for each, and zero or
more DC parameter pots (ie., tuning) all summed together.  There could
be several of these summers for a module.

The goal is to efficiently digitize all the pot values.

Add an analog mux to the input of each pot to select between the real
input, ground and a reference voltage.  Tap the voltage off the summer
ouput, and the summers from each module are muxed together and
connected to an ADC.

When you hit the 'Save Patch' button the input muxes are all set to
ground and then each of the pots is sequentially scanned; its mux is
set to the reference voltage and the summer output is read and
digitized by the ADC.


  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com


From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Thu Oct  2 00:20:53 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 15:20:53 -0700 
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Levels was [SDIY] Verniers for patch recording
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D751@SBIEXCHANGE>

So how about this...

Modules with signal levels more suited to modern, low voltage electronics.
Then you could start using nifty things like digipots. Makes interfacing to
micros and things like that a lot easier too.

Would it be possible to make a synth with signals (both CV and audio) that
was limited to 0 to +5V? Of course, this makes the power supply a lot
simpler, but do you absolutely HAVE to have a negative supply and bipolar
waveforms to properly do vibrato and other modulation effects? (or could you
get away with simply offsetting the frequency of the VCO or VCF?) One more
sticking point might be the fact that you would need to use a scale besides
1V/Octave to get reasonable range. It would be a very simple thing
(electronically) to change the range to 0.5V/Octave, but I think you might
get a lot of resistance from people simply because it was different. (I say
"stuff 'em if they can't take a joke.")

*YES* you would have to make a module or two that would level convert so
that you could use other existing equipment, and yes you would definitely
want to protect the I/O so that it didn't get fried if you ran a 20V p-p saw
wave from your Moog modular through it, but it could enable a whole new
batch of neat, programmable, analog/digital hybrid low cost stuff.

Whaddaya think?



Tim Servo

"No 1V/Octave? What the HECK is Tim smoking now?!?" - Albert Einstein



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From s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk  Thu Oct  2 00:23:53 2003
From: s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk (s.thomas)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:23:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Readable Wasp schematics?
Message-ID: <001501c3886a$b2e50410$92f80250@tardis>

Hi all..just wondering if anyone (pref in the UK)  has a readable version of the EDP wasp schematics? The ones I found on the web
are mostly, but not completely, readable (even after trying for some time with photoshop to try and improve things!).

cheers
steve thomas


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From jmahoney at gate.net  Thu Oct  2 01:13:23 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 19:13:23 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Levels ...
References: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D751@SBIEXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <024201c38871$9cac37c0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Parkhurst" <tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com>


> So how about this...
>
> Modules with signal levels more suited to modern, low voltage electronics.
> Then you could start using nifty things like digipots. Makes interfacing
to
> micros and things like that a lot easier too.

I like this idea (no surprise there). Digipots, moving sliders, switches
(relays?), etc. A computer making patch changes, tweaking knobs in
real-time, on a modular? And using MIDI to do so? Imagine...


> *YES* you would have to make a module or two that would level convert ...

Right. Use a certain ratio to make conversion easier, like 2:1. (OT: Funny
choice of words. A Certain Ratio were a late 70s band from Manchester. Might
still be around.)


> ... a whole new
> batch of neat, programmable, analog/digital hybrid low cost stuff.
>
> Whaddaya think?

Raise your hand if you *don't* want new, neat, low cost synth stuff. :-) At
the very least, it's a great way to make modulars programmable. No, wait -- 
that's "to make programmable modulars." This is really a call for a new
synth standard, which means there is a big question:

"Should we give up the idea of making current modulars programmable?"
--
john (Pondering the potential of a new generation of digitally-friendly
analog synthesizers.)


From allens at sgi.com  Thu Oct  2 01:40:14 2003
From: allens at sgi.com (Steven Allen)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:40:14 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Levels ...
References: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D751@SBIEXCHANGE> <024201c38871$9cac37c0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>
Message-ID: <3F7B65DE.6F17B406@sgi.com>

john mahoney wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Parkhurst" <tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com>
> 
> > So how about this...
> >
> > Modules with signal levels more suited to modern, low voltage electronics.
> > Then you could start using nifty things like digipots. Makes interfacing
> to
> > micros and things like that a lot easier too.
> 
> I like this idea (no surprise there). Digipots, moving sliders, switches
> (relays?), etc. A computer making patch changes, tweaking knobs in
> real-time, on a modular? And using MIDI to do so? Imagine...
> 
> > *YES* you would have to make a module or two that would level convert ...
> 
> Right. Use a certain ratio to make conversion easier, like 2:1. (OT: Funny
> choice of words. A Certain Ratio were a late 70s band from Manchester. Might
> still be around.)
> 
> > ... a whole new
> > batch of neat, programmable, analog/digital hybrid low cost stuff.
> >
> > Whaddaya think?
> 
> Raise your hand if you *don't* want new, neat, low cost synth stuff. :-) At
> the very least, it's a great way to make modulars programmable. No, wait --
> that's "to make programmable modulars." This is really a call for a new
> synth standard, which means there is a big question:
> 
> "Should we give up the idea of making current modulars programmable?"
> --
> john (Pondering the potential of a new generation of digitally-friendly
> analog synthesizers.)

Yea , But
 Wouldn't it be just as easy to use an virtual synth? 
What's going to happen when the digital interface goes down? Seems like
sometimes it hard to tell if the module is working or the controls are
set for the heart of the sun.
Will lower signal levels mean more noise? Digital noise bleeding into
the analog chain?
 DSP and programming, forget all the quirky amazing things that happen
just when they shouldn't.
Guess I'm seeing the analog devoured by the digital....again. But.....
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From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Thu Oct  2 02:20:26 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 17:20:26 -0700 
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Levels ...
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D752@SBIEXCHANGE>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Allen [mailto:allens at sgi.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 4:40 PM
> To: john mahoney
> Cc: Tim Parkhurst; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Modular Levels ...

> Yea , But
>  Wouldn't it be just as easy to use an virtual synth?

Oh, it would be a LOT easier to use a virtual!!! Believe me, after I've
tried and fried a circuit two or three times, I've been about this far
(holds fingers VERY close together) from chucking the whole mess and putting
all my money and time into VST plug ins! 

HOWEVER, there is just something about touching knobs and switches and patch
cords. A physical connection with the instrument is IMHO a *VERY* key part
of the whole creative process. Also, on a less esoteric level, part of the
fun is making your own stuff. Cooking up a module that tweaks a voltage or
behaves in some odd (but purposeful) way is about as close as you can get
(again IMHO) to performing magic... REAL magic. You can take that waveform
and twist it and tweak it and listen to it contort and dance as you move the
knob.  I can't make a module to add on to my virtual (unless the program is
set up to allow this, and most aren't), but I can breadboard and throw
together some stuff and make a waveform mangler and smile when it sounds
twice as crappy as I thought it would (especially since 'crappy' is what I
was shooting for in the first place). So yes, virtual is cool, but its just
not the same :-)

*********************************
> What's going to happen when the digital interface goes down? Seems like
> sometimes it hard to tell if the module is working or the controls are
> set for the heart of the sun.

Well, this can happen with an old fashioned analog modular too. Analog stuff
breaks too. OR, have you ever had the VCO frequency cranked up so high that
only your dog could tell you that you're playing out of tune? ("Woof woof!
You're tempco circuit is off, Master!"). Another advantage of a modular is
that it is relatively easy to isolate and take one module or sound path at a
time to find out why you aren't getting any sound (or not the sound you
intended).

******************************
> Will lower signal levels mean more noise? Digital noise bleeding into
> the analog chain?

I really don't think a 0 to 5V signal is going to be difficult to manage.
Yes, it's not as good as 10V, but I think this is still very easy to control
with good layout and bypassing techniques (the very same techniques that
give low noise 10 and 15 volt circuits). On the other hand, I briefly
thought about going down to 3V or even 1.5V levels, and then I think you're
asking for trouble. Also, trying to cram ten or even five octaves of CV into
1.5V means that your divider, scaling, and offset circuits become MUCH
trickier to build.

******************************
> Guess I'm seeing the analog devoured by the digital....again. But.....

I used to feel sort of the same way until I saw things like the Monowave and
the Evolver. Absolutely AMAZING sounds can come from a marriage of analog
and digital. Also, don't forget that using ANY electronic circuits to make
music is still a relatively new concept, and a lot of people cringed at the
idea at first. Embracing the future, blending it with the past, and making
music with the result is part of the fun!!



Tim Servo

"What a windbag!" - Albert Einstein



***************************************************************************
This message is confidential.  The information contained in
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recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
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From trypannon at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  2 03:11:45 2003
From: trypannon at hotmail.com (Steve Begin)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:11:45 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Drum synth updates
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030929154447.02f12150@mail.which.net> <1064853822.3f78613eee7cd@webmail.telusplanet.net>
Message-ID: <Law12-OE35ZfEAkqBiB00000db1@hotmail.com>

I've been really excited about this since you first mentioned it.  I'm
really big on analog percussion and often find myself wishing i had more
control over the sound being synthesized.  Can't wait to hear some sounds.
Hopefully some time in the near future I will have obtained the know-how and
funds to mooch off your hard work and see if i build a few of the voices.
You're building the synth of my dreams :)
-Steve


----- Original Message -----
From: "The Peasant" <epeasant at telusplanet.net>
To: "Synth-DIY list" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 12:43 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Drum synth updates


> Hey, all you builders that like to beat on things with
> sticks, check out the latest updates to my percussion synth:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/epeasant/projects/ssdrum
> s/ssdrums.html
>
> Final schematics for the drum voice boards are included, as
> well as power supply and trigger pad info. Sorry, no sound
> files yet - I promise I will have them by my next update ;-)
> =
>
> As usual, comments, criticism, and suggestions welcome!
>
> Take care,
> Doug
> ______________________
> The Electronic Peasant
>
> www.electronicpeasant.com
>
>
>
>


From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Thu Oct  2 03:22:50 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:22:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Levels ...
In-Reply-To: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D752@SBIEXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCELICFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

If you want to create a new digital standard I think it should have a few
carbon resistors and electrolytic caps built into every circuit so that even
if you try to make the thing perfect it simply can't be. Then at least your
gadget won't sound exactly like mine.

 That's why the whole analog world makes sense. It can never, ever be
perfect and neither can we. Now that's a perfect fit.

Michael





-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Tim Parkhurst
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 8:20 PM
To: 'Steven Allen'; john mahoney
Cc: Tim Parkhurst; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Modular Levels ...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Allen [mailto:allens at sgi.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 4:40 PM
> To: john mahoney
> Cc: Tim Parkhurst; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Modular Levels ...

> Yea , But
>  Wouldn't it be just as easy to use an virtual synth?

Oh, it would be a LOT easier to use a virtual!!! Believe me, after I've
tried and fried a circuit two or three times, I've been about this far
(holds fingers VERY close together) from chucking the whole mess and putting
all my money and time into VST plug ins!

HOWEVER, there is just something about touching knobs and switches and patch
cords. A physical connection with the instrument is IMHO a *VERY* key part
of the whole creative process. Also, on a less esoteric level, part of the
fun is making your own stuff. Cooking up a module that tweaks a voltage or
behaves in some odd (but purposeful) way is about as close as you can get
(again IMHO) to performing magic... REAL magic. You can take that waveform
and twist it and tweak it and listen to it contort and dance as you move the
knob.  I can't make a module to add on to my virtual (unless the program is
set up to allow this, and most aren't), but I can breadboard and throw
together some stuff and make a waveform mangler and smile when it sounds
twice as crappy as I thought it would (especially since 'crappy' is what I
was shooting for in the first place). So yes, virtual is cool, but its just
not the same :-)

*********************************
> What's going to happen when the digital interface goes down? Seems like
> sometimes it hard to tell if the module is working or the controls are
> set for the heart of the sun.

Well, this can happen with an old fashioned analog modular too. Analog stuff
breaks too. OR, have you ever had the VCO frequency cranked up so high that
only your dog could tell you that you're playing out of tune? ("Woof woof!
You're tempco circuit is off, Master!"). Another advantage of a modular is
that it is relatively easy to isolate and take one module or sound path at a
time to find out why you aren't getting any sound (or not the sound you
intended).

******************************
> Will lower signal levels mean more noise? Digital noise bleeding into
> the analog chain?

I really don't think a 0 to 5V signal is going to be difficult to manage.
Yes, it's not as good as 10V, but I think this is still very easy to control
with good layout and bypassing techniques (the very same techniques that
give low noise 10 and 15 volt circuits). On the other hand, I briefly
thought about going down to 3V or even 1.5V levels, and then I think you're
asking for trouble. Also, trying to cram ten or even five octaves of CV into
1.5V means that your divider, scaling, and offset circuits become MUCH
trickier to build.

******************************
> Guess I'm seeing the analog devoured by the digital....again. But.....

I used to feel sort of the same way until I saw things like the Monowave and
the Evolver. Absolutely AMAZING sounds can come from a marriage of analog
and digital. Also, don't forget that using ANY electronic circuits to make
music is still a relatively new concept, and a lot of people cringed at the
idea at first. Embracing the future, blending it with the past, and making
music with the result is part of the fun!!



Tim Servo

"What a windbag!" - Albert Einstein



***************************************************************************
This message is confidential.  The information contained in
this e-mail message is intended only for confidential use of the
recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in
error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in
error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original
message.
***************************************************************************





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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Thu Oct  2 03:23:47 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 21:23:47 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
References: <200310011427.h91ERM614106@linux6.lan>
Message-ID: <3F7B7E21.CEF87E99@prodigy.net>

Scott Gravenhorst wrote:

> Hey Martin and Harry,
>
> Pardon my lame observation, but it looks to me like the problem
> is that process needs to know the true length of a cycle.  That
> is, in order to avoid recognizing a cycle's secondary peaks as
> primary peaks.

Yes... precisely :^P

In my circuit... I 'know' that it is processing a guitar and that the
lowest fundamental frequency is 80Hz.  When I try the same circuit
on "music" (wideband) input... I can no longer assume that.  And it
works progressively less well.  Too bad, so sad :^P  By the time I
get good follower performance, the hangover becomes more than I'd
like. I have made the reset clock variable, for this reason.

> Almost as if a PLL is needed in the algorithm to
> mark out a cycle.  While this might not work in a practical
> circuit, it might be useful in a non real time algorithm.
>
> Then again, it is early here and I'm just sipping my first cup of
> coffee.  So I hope I've at least amused, if not helped and
> hopefully not annoyed...

Annoyed, not now not ever...
<sound cue : Gilbert and Sullivan - HMS Pinnafore>
well... hardly ever...  :^P

H^) harry

> Anyway, interesting stuff.  I'm all eyes.
>
> "Czech Martin" <Martin.Czech at micronas.com> wrote:
> >Harry,
> >
> >your reply shows that you listened carefully to your
> >results. These are exactly the problems I came across.
> >
> >For such applications the usual circuits/ideas do not perform
> >too well, or they are even useless.
> >
> >Your "eye" approach is into the same direction of what
> >I tryed, unfortunately this is a very intelligent
> >approach. For the human beeing it is not too hard
> >to draw the envelope, but automatons have problems...
> >
> >m.c.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry
> >> Bissell Jr
> >> Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2003 01:29
> >> To: Richard Wentk; Synth-DIY list
> >> Subject: RE: [sdiy] what is the amplitude envelope of a signal
> >>
> >>
> >> OK then... lets make a formal definition  ;^P
> >>
> >> The "envelope" of a signal is what your 'eye'
> >> would process looking at the rectified or absolute
> >> value of a signal.
> >>
> >> The envelope would be a 'best fit' curve to that.
> >>
> >> Single constant generators do not work (for me)
> >> I'm processing a guitar, which has the following
> >> nasty habits
> >>
> >> 1) The positive and negative half cycles do not
> >> have equal amplitude... and this change is variable
> >> over time. Usually there is one large peak of one
> >> polarity, followed by two smaller peaks of the
> >> opposite
> >> polarity.
> >>
> >> 2) The guitar has a normal exponential decay, but the
> >> decay time can be changed easily (on the fly) by
> >> adding
> >> damping to the strings in small or even large amounts.
> >> The biggest problem is that if you mute the strings...
> >> it will take forever for a single constant to get to
> >> the
> >> correct value.  The next note will start at the wrong
> >> value... maybe a too high value if the next note is
> >> more quiet.
> >>
> >> The ripple vs speed tradeoff is a killer.  Any ripple
> >> (which the 'best fit' or 'eyeball' curve conveniently
> >> filters out) will cause noticible intermodulation
> >> distortion especially if you are using the CV to drive
> >> a filter.  Any lag will destroy the accuracy of the
> >> original waveform.  Now maybe your guitar, or drum
> >> has a real noticible attack time.
> >>
> >> This is a real nightmare problem.  If I could stand
> >> it,
> >> I'd think about running some delay in the signal to
> >> allow the circuit to 'look into the future' and
> >> adapt... but I fear even a millisecond is too much
> >>
> >> H^) harry
> >>
> >>
> >> --- Richard Wentk <richard at skydancer.com> wrote:
> >> > At 13:08 30/09/2003 +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
> >> > > > If you're getting signal breakthrough it means
> >> > either there's
> >> > > > some signal
> >> > > > breakthrough in the circuit due to a design or
> >> > construction
> >> > > > fault, or the
> >> > > > filtering isn't working properly, or both. The
> >> > output should
> >> > > > be a slow *DC*
> >> > > > variation. There should be no effective signal
> >> > content above
> >> > > > 100Hz at the
> >> > > > very maximum, and 10Hz would be more typical for
> >> > many applications.
> >> > >
> >> > >That is a good question. A lowpass with 100Hz or
> >> > even 10Hz
> >> > >gives problems with signals that have a short
> >> > attack.
> >> >
> >> > But are those problems severe enough to make a
> >> > musical difference? I can't
> >> > think of many applications where a dual
> >> > time-constant standard follower
> >> > circuit wouldn't produce useful results. And people
> >> > have been using single
> >> > constant followers since Bob Moog's days without
> >> > worrying too much about it.
> >> >
> >> > > > The only way to create a perfect envelope
> >> > follower is to do
> >> > > > it digitally in
> >> > > > non-real time, where you can go forward and
> >> > backtrack with an
> >> > > > adaptive
> >> > > > time-constant and some clever logic.
> >> > >
> >> > >This is what I tryed, now I found that I can not
> >> > write down
> >> > >a formal description of "envelope", because I do
> >> > not know
> >> > >what it really is.
> >> > >
> >> > >Like I said, I thought I knew exactly what it is
> >> > about, but
> >> > >when it comes to a formal description (algorithm) I
> >> > know
> >> > >nothing about.
> >> >
> >> > That's because it's an ad hoc thing that doesn't
> >> > have a formal definition.
> >> > However you do it you'll always have a trade-off
> >> > between responsiveness and
> >> > accuracy, especially on transients.
> >> >
> >> > If you want a digital interpretation, pick your time
> >> > constant, sample
> >> > sections equivalent to its duration, calculate the
> >> > RMS value in each (not
> >> > too hard digitally) and then interpolate the values
> >> > to create a curve. Use
> >> > cubic instead of linear interpolation for a smoother
> >> > result.
> >> >
> >> > For adaptive tracking lower the time constant by a
> >> > few factors whenever you
> >> > see a transient (i.e. a very rapid change in RMS
> >> > level), shift the start of
> >> > each RMS window to the beginning of the transient,
> >> > and then increase the
> >> > time constant again during the release or decay
> >> > period. This won't track
> >> > reverse transients but it will handle most other
> >> > things.
> >> >
> >> > You can include a reverse transient check if you
> >> > want to get really picky.
> >> >
> >> > This solution won't work in real time because
> >> > there's some lookahead and
> >> > lookback is involved, but it will give you the best
> >> > possible results
> >> > otherwise.
> >> >
> >> > Richard
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> =========================================================
> - Where merit is not rewarded, excellence fades.
> - Hydrogen is pointless without solar.
> - What good are laws that only lawyers understand?
> - The media's credibility should always be questioned.
> - Governments do nothing well, save collect taxes.
>
> -- Scott Gravenhorst | LegoManiac / Lego Trains / RIS 1.5
> -- Linux Rex         | RedWebMail by RedStarWare
> -- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FatMan/
> -- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/


From john.l.marshall at gte.net  Thu Oct  2 03:43:39 2003
From: john.l.marshall at gte.net (John L Marshall)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:43:39 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
References: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
Message-ID: <00b801c38886$9b262770$6601a8c0@PURPLE>

Cynthia,

Too many triple lattes.

Take care,
John
------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sound-photo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"


> (from a thread on the CGS list)
>
> Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
>
> Howdy!
>
> This thread touches on a thought I've had for some time about
> Concept modules with a built-in modem and phone jack in the back...
>
> Imagine a module called WALL STREET featuring rows of output jacks
> that present control voltages reflecting the actual realworld
> realtime status of parameters such as the Dow Jones Industrial Average,
> and other stocks.  You could have a whole smorgesboard of outputs
> for the stocks and stock exchanges of your choice:
> the NASDAC, Apple, Microsoft, spyders, etc.
>
> I've entertained the idea of posting such live information
> automatically on a page at my website, and equipping such modules
> with built-in modems that could automatically log onto that special
> web page to update themselves periodically.
>
> "I'm sorry I couldn't call because my modular was on the phone!"
>
> If one were to get really diabolical or "Bill Gates" about it,
> one could charge for a monthly ~subscription~ to such modules...
>
> "The modules are free, but the they won't do anything without
> your credit card number!" LOL!
>
> Perhaps a more nurturing application of this is the concept of
> "Green Voltages" With a Module titled MOTHER EARTH that might
> feature rows of output jacks featuring the present rate of
> Global Warming, seismic activity, ocean currents, missing ozone,
> etc...
>
> Imagine a limited edition dedicated to the US 2004
> presidential election  (Yikes!)
>
> The possibilities are endless!
>
> I recently saw a company manufacturing an entire modem built
> right into the space inside the phone jack itself.
> so this sort of idea is not so far fetched.
>
> As you were!
>
> Cynthia
>
> http://www.cyndustries.com
>
>
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:28:57 -0000
> > From: "spgjmf"
> > Subject: Re: Discreet Music a la cgs modules
> >
> >
> > hey weather station, thats a good idea...
> > I was thinking of all these little senors to build, but maybe
> > a weather station can be adapted....
> >
> > hmmm
> >
> > thanks for the insight!
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, Richard Brewster < wrote:
> >> You can find lots of remote weather stations for sale.  A weather
> >> station could probably be adapted for control use.  Interesting idea.
>
> >> -Richard Brewster
> >>
> >> At 10:57 PM 9/27/03 +0000, Fernando wrote:
> >>> All sounds fine to me, but:
> >>> if you want to use environment as a source of control, I think
> >>> you should use sensors to get that voltages and control whatever
> >>> generators, processors... the nature would be your 1/f generator
> >>> in that case. If the CVs you extract are interesting enough (and
> >>> to what you apply them) you may want to keep them as expressive
> >>> as they are instead of dissolve that data in to a random system...
> >>> Just my thoughts about it...
> >>> Keep inspired!
> >>> Fernando
> >>>
> >>> --- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, "
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> well that is very cool.
> >>>> any chance you might be able to send a pic to me of the panel.
> >>>> just want to
> >>>> see the gear :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> I have been thinking for many yesrs about "environmental "
> >>> music.
> >>>> taking stimulus from the environment ( temp, humitity, wind,
> >>>> light...) and creating "music" from these. sound like the
> >>>> IM and the diatonic conv must be a useful thing to that effect.
> >>>>
> >>>> thanks for the reply
> >>>>
> >>>> JEff
> >>>>
>
>


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Thu Oct  2 03:52:42 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 21:52:42 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Levels ...
References: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D751@SBIEXCHANGE> <024201c38871$9cac37c0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST> <3F7B65DE.6F17B406@sgi.com>
Message-ID: <3F7B84E9.F51BAFD3@prodigy.net>

Steven Allen wrote: <snip>

>
> Will lower signal levels mean more noise?

they don't 'have' to...  Noise (these days... in fact even in THOSE days...) is
more a function of good design and layout that signal level.

> Digital noise bleeding into the analog chain?

Not necessarily...  You might have a zipper noise issue with some
digipots if you only have 64 or 128 steps...

>
>  DSP and programming, forget all the quirky amazing things that happen
> just when they shouldn't.

You could do the whole thing in HARDWARE if you wanted to. It would
be complex. It would probably be surface mount only. You could use an FPGA
to do all the logic.  There need be NO software at all.  There are some digipots
that use an up/down signal. Presumably you might touch a switch to select function

and use the up/down keys to set it...

otoh then it would be very similar to a VA synth...   ;^P

H^) harry

>
> Guess I'm seeing the analog devoured by the digital....again. But.....


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Thu Oct  2 04:01:33 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:01:33 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
References: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net> <00b801c38886$9b262770$6601a8c0@PURPLE>
Message-ID: <3F7B86FC.2F18CC45@prodigy.net>

Yeah definately !!!

"I'll have what the lady on the FLOOR is having...."

H^) harry

John L Marshall wrote:

> Cynthia,
>
> Too many triple lattes.
>
> Take care,
> John
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> www.sound-photo.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
> To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
> Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
>
> > (from a thread on the CGS list)
> >
> > Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
> >
> > Howdy!
> >
> > This thread touches on a thought I've had for some time about
> > Concept modules with a built-in modem and phone jack in the back...
> >
> > Imagine a module called WALL STREET featuring rows of output jacks
> > that present control voltages reflecting the actual realworld
> > realtime status of parameters such as the Dow Jones Industrial Average,
> > and other stocks.  You could have a whole smorgesboard of outputs
> > for the stocks and stock exchanges of your choice:
> > the NASDAC, Apple, Microsoft, spyders, etc.
> >
> > I've entertained the idea of posting such live information
> > automatically on a page at my website, and equipping such modules
> > with built-in modems that could automatically log onto that special
> > web page to update themselves periodically.
> >
> > "I'm sorry I couldn't call because my modular was on the phone!"
> >
> > If one were to get really diabolical or "Bill Gates" about it,
> > one could charge for a monthly ~subscription~ to such modules...
> >
> > "The modules are free, but the they won't do anything without
> > your credit card number!" LOL!
> >
> > Perhaps a more nurturing application of this is the concept of
> > "Green Voltages" With a Module titled MOTHER EARTH that might
> > feature rows of output jacks featuring the present rate of
> > Global Warming, seismic activity, ocean currents, missing ozone,
> > etc...
> >
> > Imagine a limited edition dedicated to the US 2004
> > presidential election  (Yikes!)
> >
> > The possibilities are endless!
> >
> > I recently saw a company manufacturing an entire modem built
> > right into the space inside the phone jack itself.
> > so this sort of idea is not so far fetched.
> >
> > As you were!
> >
> > Cynthia
> >
> > http://www.cyndustries.com
> >
> >
> > > ________________________________________________________________________
> > > ________________________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:28:57 -0000
> > > From: "spgjmf"
> > > Subject: Re: Discreet Music a la cgs modules
> > >
> > >
> > > hey weather station, thats a good idea...
> > > I was thinking of all these little senors to build, but maybe
> > > a weather station can be adapted....
> > >
> > > hmmm
> > >
> > > thanks for the insight!
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, Richard Brewster < wrote:
> > >> You can find lots of remote weather stations for sale.  A weather
> > >> station could probably be adapted for control use.  Interesting idea.
> >
> > >> -Richard Brewster
> > >>
> > >> At 10:57 PM 9/27/03 +0000, Fernando wrote:
> > >>> All sounds fine to me, but:
> > >>> if you want to use environment as a source of control, I think
> > >>> you should use sensors to get that voltages and control whatever
> > >>> generators, processors... the nature would be your 1/f generator
> > >>> in that case. If the CVs you extract are interesting enough (and
> > >>> to what you apply them) you may want to keep them as expressive
> > >>> as they are instead of dissolve that data in to a random system...
> > >>> Just my thoughts about it...
> > >>> Keep inspired!
> > >>> Fernando
> > >>>
> > >>> --- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, "
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>> well that is very cool.
> > >>>> any chance you might be able to send a pic to me of the panel.
> > >>>> just want to
> > >>>> see the gear :-)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I have been thinking for many yesrs about "environmental "
> > >>> music.
> > >>>> taking stimulus from the environment ( temp, humitity, wind,
> > >>>> light...) and creating "music" from these. sound like the
> > >>>> IM and the diatonic conv must be a useful thing to that effect.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> thanks for the reply
> > >>>>
> > >>>> JEff
> > >>>>
> >
> >


From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct  2 05:03:40 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:03:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
In-Reply-To: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
References: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3F7B958C.7020404@ix.netcom.com>

Great thoughts Cynthia!

But, don't we already get all of that for free from a reverse-biased 
transistor junction?


Cynthia Webster wrote:

>(from a thread on the CGS list)
>
>Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
>
>Howdy!
>
>This thread touches on a thought I've had for some time about
>Concept modules with a built-in modem and phone jack in the back...
>
>Imagine a module called WALL STREET featuring rows of output jacks
>that present control voltages reflecting the actual realworld
>realtime status of parameters such as the Dow Jones Industrial Average,
>and other stocks.  You could have a whole smorgesboard of outputs
>for the stocks and stock exchanges of your choice:
>the NASDAC, Apple, Microsoft, spyders, etc.
>
>I've entertained the idea of posting such live information
>automatically on a page at my website, and equipping such modules
>with built-in modems that could automatically log onto that special
>web page to update themselves periodically.
>
>"I'm sorry I couldn't call because my modular was on the phone!"
>
>If one were to get really diabolical or "Bill Gates" about it,
>one could charge for a monthly ~subscription~ to such modules...
>
>"The modules are free, but the they won't do anything without
>your credit card number!" LOL!
>
>Perhaps a more nurturing application of this is the concept of
>"Green Voltages" With a Module titled MOTHER EARTH that might
>feature rows of output jacks featuring the present rate of
>Global Warming, seismic activity, ocean currents, missing ozone,
>etc...
>
>Imagine a limited edition dedicated to the US 2004
>presidential election  (Yikes!)
>
>The possibilities are endless!
>
>I recently saw a company manufacturing an entire modem built
>right into the space inside the phone jack itself.
>so this sort of idea is not so far fetched.
>
>As you were!
>
>Cynthia
>
>http://www.cyndustries.com
>
>
>  
>
>>________________________________________________________________________
>>________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>Message: 2
>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:28:57 -0000
>>From: "spgjmf"
>>Subject: Re: Discreet Music a la cgs modules
>>
>>
>>hey weather station, thats a good idea...
>>I was thinking of all these little senors to build, but maybe
>>a weather station can be adapted....
>>
>>hmmm
>>
>>thanks for the insight!
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>--- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, Richard Brewster < wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>You can find lots of remote weather stations for sale.  A weather
>>>station could probably be adapted for control use.  Interesting idea.
>>>      
>>>
>
>  
>
>>>-Richard Brewster
>>>
>>>At 10:57 PM 9/27/03 +0000, Fernando wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>All sounds fine to me, but:
>>>>if you want to use environment as a source of control, I think
>>>>you should use sensors to get that voltages and control whatever
>>>>generators, processors... the nature would be your 1/f generator
>>>>in that case. If the CVs you extract are interesting enough (and
>>>>to what you apply them) you may want to keep them as expressive
>>>>as they are instead of dissolve that data in to a random system...
>>>>Just my thoughts about it...
>>>>Keep inspired!
>>>>Fernando
>>>>
>>>>--- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, "
>>>>wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>well that is very cool.
>>>>>any chance you might be able to send a pic to me of the panel.
>>>>>just want to
>>>>>see the gear :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>I have been thinking for many yesrs about "environmental "
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>music.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>taking stimulus from the environment ( temp, humitity, wind,
>>>>>light...) and creating "music" from these. sound like the
>>>>>IM and the diatonic conv must be a useful thing to that effect.
>>>>>
>>>>>thanks for the reply
>>>>>
>>>>>JEff
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Oren Leavitt
oleavitt at ix.netcom.com




From jmahoney at gate.net  Thu Oct  2 05:31:54 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:31:54 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
References: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net> <00b801c38886$9b262770$6601a8c0@PURPLE> <3F7B86FC.2F18CC45@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <028201c38895$ba0f10c0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

Hey, somebody has to defend Cyn, here!

The idea has artistic merit, except for the subscription thing, bah humbug!
;-) Public news tickers aren't new, there's a national debt counter (in
Times Square?), a Nuclear Countdown Clock... But, art is "off topic," so on
with the DIY (... he said, narrowly avoiding an artistic debate).

You can use a PC to grab the data off the Internet and send out the
corresponding MIDI data. A MIDI/CV converter completes the job.

The trick is reading HTTP and writing MIDI, but it's *theoretically* easy.
Internet and MIDI functions are built into Microsoft's Software Development
Kits, for one. If I had the tools, I'd try it.

Now, you wanted that PC in a Modcan-compatible module, right...?
--
john


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
To: "John L Marshall" <john.l.marshall at gte.net>
Cc: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>;
<cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"


> Yeah definately !!!
>
> "I'll have what the lady on the FLOOR is having...."
>
> H^) harry
>
> John L Marshall wrote:
>
> > Cynthia,
> >
> > Too many triple lattes.
> >
> > Take care,
> > John
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > www.sound-photo.com
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
> > To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
> > Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> >
> > > (from a thread on the CGS list)
> > >
> > > Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
> > >
[big snip]


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Thu Oct  2 08:15:19 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:15:19 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
References: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
Message-ID: <001801c388ad$3f7a3840$0209be3f@default>

Cool ideas, Cynthia.

Rig it up to my 401(k) chart, and you'll have the equivalent of a Shepard
function generator that gives the illusion of a tone that's always falling
=0).

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"


> (from a thread on the CGS list)
>
> Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
>
> Howdy!
>
> This thread touches on a thought I've had for some time about
> Concept modules with a built-in modem and phone jack in the back...
>
> Imagine a module called WALL STREET featuring rows of output jacks
> that present control voltages reflecting the actual realworld
> realtime status of parameters such as the Dow Jones Industrial Average,
> and other stocks.  You could have a whole smorgesboard of outputs
> for the stocks and stock exchanges of your choice:
> the NASDAC, Apple, Microsoft, spyders, etc.
>
> I've entertained the idea of posting such live information
> automatically on a page at my website, and equipping such modules
> with built-in modems that could automatically log onto that special
> web page to update themselves periodically.
>
> "I'm sorry I couldn't call because my modular was on the phone!"
>
> If one were to get really diabolical or "Bill Gates" about it,
> one could charge for a monthly ~subscription~ to such modules...
>
> "The modules are free, but the they won't do anything without
> your credit card number!" LOL!
>
> Perhaps a more nurturing application of this is the concept of
> "Green Voltages" With a Module titled MOTHER EARTH that might
> feature rows of output jacks featuring the present rate of
> Global Warming, seismic activity, ocean currents, missing ozone,
> etc...
>
> Imagine a limited edition dedicated to the US 2004
> presidential election  (Yikes!)
>
> The possibilities are endless!
>
> I recently saw a company manufacturing an entire modem built
> right into the space inside the phone jack itself.
> so this sort of idea is not so far fetched.
>
> As you were!
>
> Cynthia
>
> http://www.cyndustries.com
>
>
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:28:57 -0000
> > From: "spgjmf"
> > Subject: Re: Discreet Music a la cgs modules
> >
> >
> > hey weather station, thats a good idea...
> > I was thinking of all these little senors to build, but maybe
> > a weather station can be adapted....
> >
> > hmmm
> >
> > thanks for the insight!
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, Richard Brewster < wrote:
> >> You can find lots of remote weather stations for sale.  A weather
> >> station could probably be adapted for control use.  Interesting idea.
>
> >> -Richard Brewster
> >>
> >> At 10:57 PM 9/27/03 +0000, Fernando wrote:
> >>> All sounds fine to me, but:
> >>> if you want to use environment as a source of control, I think
> >>> you should use sensors to get that voltages and control whatever
> >>> generators, processors... the nature would be your 1/f generator
> >>> in that case. If the CVs you extract are interesting enough (and
> >>> to what you apply them) you may want to keep them as expressive
> >>> as they are instead of dissolve that data in to a random system...
> >>> Just my thoughts about it...
> >>> Keep inspired!
> >>> Fernando
> >>>
> >>> --- In cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com, "
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> well that is very cool.
> >>>> any chance you might be able to send a pic to me of the panel.
> >>>> just want to
> >>>> see the gear :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> I have been thinking for many yesrs about "environmental "
> >>> music.
> >>>> taking stimulus from the environment ( temp, humitity, wind,
> >>>> light...) and creating "music" from these. sound like the
> >>>> IM and the diatonic conv must be a useful thing to that effect.
> >>>>
> >>>> thanks for the reply
> >>>>
> >>>> JEff
> >>>>
>
>


From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Thu Oct  2 08:47:28 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:47:28 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
In-Reply-To: <028201c38895$ba0f10c0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>
Message-ID: <BBA1180F.1055E%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

on 10/1/03 8:31 PM, john mahoney at jmahoney at gate.net wrote:

> Hey, somebody has to defend Cyn, here!

Thanks John!

I really can't believe the snide remarks I've gotten so far on this topic.
(I'll remember those comments gentlemen...)

> The idea has artistic merit, except for the subscription thing, bah humbug!

I agree, (can you imagine?)  They say that if Microsoft has it's way,
soon we'll all be ~renting~ software instead of owning it. Yikes!

> ;-) Public news tickers aren't new, there's a national debt counter (in
> Times Square?), a Nuclear Countdown Clock... But, art is "off topic," so on
> with the DIY (... he said, narrowly avoiding an artistic debate).
> 
> You can use a PC to grab the data off the Internet and send out the
> corresponding MIDI data. A MIDI/CV converter completes the job.
> 
> The trick is reading HTTP and writing MIDI, but it's *theoretically* easy.
> Internet and MIDI functions are built into Microsoft's Software Development
> Kits, for one. If I had the tools, I'd try it.
> 
> Now, you wanted that PC in a Modcan-compatible module, right...?

Yes!  Actually I'm a Mac head, and don't think I haven't looked at those
G4 Cubes thinking they'd fit nicely behind a panel! LOL!

Actually I am on the look-out for a Mac on a card if anyone ever sees one.
Even if I had to pull the Mac OS ROM chips from a full size Mac to make
it happen.  There's a quirky little Mac shareware program called THONK that
will take a sound file and well, THONK it.

There is very little control you have a choice of one parameter and that is
"Short THONK" or "Long THONK".

I fed Debussey's "Claire de lune" on piano into THONK and let it process
it in the background for a hour or two on a slow G3...
The sound file that I got back was scary as hell!

It sounded so creepy!  Like I was in a space ship on the surface of some
strange planet and there was a flock of some really evil creatures trying
to get inside!    (You know how hearing ghost stories can make your hair
strand on end and make your skin crawl?  Well, THONK turned a beautiful
piece on piano into that!)

So I wonder, what if you had a Mac or a PC on a card behind a module
with a front panel called THONK, that was dedicated to doing this in real
time?  What would it do with evil nasty sounds, make them beautiful?

If anyone is looking for THONK or any really good freeware or shareware
I suggest the free downloads at TuCows  www.tucows.com.

> --
> john
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: "John L Marshall" <john.l.marshall at gte.net>
> Cc: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>;
> <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> 
> 
>> Yeah definately !!!
>> 
>> "I'll have what the lady on the FLOOR is having...."
>> 
>> H^) harry
>> 
>> John L Marshall wrote:
>> 
>>> Cynthia,
>>> 
>>> Too many triple lattes.
>>> 
>>> Take care,
>>> John
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> www.sound-photo.com
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
>>> To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
>>> Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
>>> 
>>>> (from a thread on the CGS list)
>>>> 
>>>> Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
>>>> 
> [big snip]
> 


From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Oct  2 08:56:35 2003
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:56:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] Readable Wasp schematics?
In-Reply-To: <001501c3886a$b2e50410$92f80250@tardis>
Message-ID: <20031002065635.68105.qmail@web86205.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hi Steve! I've got some pretty readable wasp schemos if you or any one else would like them- they are from the 'first' copy, not the one with the Sellotape down the middle...
Ken

"s.thomas" <s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
Hi all..just wondering if anyone (pref in the UK)  has a readable version of the EDP wasp schematics? The ones I found on the web
are mostly, but not completely, readable (even after trying for some time with photoshop to try and improve things!).
 
cheers
steve thomas
 
 


http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com
Home of the M3X Analogue synthesizer...

---------------------------------
Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger
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From don at till.com  Thu Oct  2 08:59:39 2003
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: 01 Oct 2003 23:59:39 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
In-Reply-To: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net> (message from Cynthia
	Webster on Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:54:13 -0700)
References: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
Message-ID: <m2ekxwm8f8.fsf@till.com>

   > Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:54:13 -0700
   > From: Cynthia Webster <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
   > 
   > Imagine a module called WALL STREET featuring rows of output
   > jacks that present control voltages reflecting the actual
   > realworld realtime status of parameters such as the Dow Jones
   > Industrial Average, and other stocks.  You could have a whole
   > smorgesboard of outputs for the stocks and stock exchanges of
   > your choice: the NASDAC, Apple, Microsoft, spyders, etc.

That's not too different from Charles Dodge's "Earths Magnetic Field",
1970: 

  http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~book/MATCpages/chap.1/1.pops/1.1.sonif.html

The problem with WALL STREET is that the stock market probably won't
be open when you play a gig.  Best to use weather data.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com


From steiseim at online.no  Thu Oct  2 10:03:31 2003
From: steiseim at online.no (Stein Seim)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:03:31 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] RE: [sdiy) New Synthsite in the block
Message-ID: <000c01c388bb$acbaefe0$c41dfea9@no1music>

Hi!

Here you will find some of my synths and sdiy projects, more to come.
There are switches for Two Stones Studio, a short story, some of my synths, 
some of my sdiy projects, my music and a switch for a contact mailadr
.

There will also be switches for sale, wanted and giveaways - believe it or not!
Will repair and/or tune my other stuff before picturing it up.

Any suggestion, comments and criticism would be nice.
You will need macromedia flash.

Here is the mail adr. in case it's not active from the contactswitch yet.
synth at twostonesstudio.no

And here is my other mailadr.
steiseim at online.no

Hope you'll enjoy some of it.

Best regards
Stein Seim
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From rand at ling.umu.se  Thu Oct  2 10:20:57 2003
From: rand at ling.umu.se (Ola Andersson)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:20:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Scratchy CDs
In-Reply-To: <20031001161601.B911446810F@mail.scp.de>
References: <007901c381eb$4cc62ea0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST> <E34D99E8-EF5F-11D7-A80E-000A9571C136@cityweb.de> <20031001161601.B911446810F@mail.scp.de>
Message-ID: <200310020820.h928KvSw068810@mail.umu.se>

On Wednesday 01 October 2003 18:16, you wrote:
> There is the low level parity check (well, actually it's two parity
> checks in a row) in each frame, which contains 6 stereo samples. It takes
> 588 channel bits (pit/land bits) to code those 6 samples (192 payload
> bits) - that's quite a ratio...
> And for the question, whether ripping an audio track does error
> correction - I think it's safe to assume that low level correction does
> take place, but high level correction can't be used - it's simply not
> present on an audio CD.

Well, a parity check isn't error correction, only error detection.
The question is what do ripping programs do when they detect a parity error?
I think professional CD players tries to guess the correct sample values 
(interpolation or something).
For ripping CDs, see www.exactaudiocopy.de, this program tries to do it right.

-- 
Ola Andersson
http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy


From steiseim at online.no  Thu Oct  2 11:05:12 2003
From: steiseim at online.no (Stein Seim)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:05:12 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Re: two stones studio
Message-ID: <001201c388c4$4a44db60$c41dfea9@no1music>

Hi!

Forgor this one....where to find Macromedia Flash :)
http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/triggerpages_mmcom/flash.html

Best regards
Stein Seim
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From kdowns at optusnet.com.au  Thu Oct  2 11:22:31 2003
From: kdowns at optusnet.com.au (Kevin Downs)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:22:31 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Scratchy CDs
In-Reply-To: <200310020820.h928KvSw068810@mail.umu.se>
Message-ID: <000001c388c6$b5adbc30$0200a8c0@co3019798a>

The CD standard is a very clever thing...

<warning - extreme geek mode>

Here's a quick, but detailed, description of "Cross Interleave
Read-Solomon Code" (CIRC) used to encode CD Audio.


The original musical signal is sampled as two 16-bit words, one for the
left channel and one for the right channel. 

Six samples (six of the left and six of the right for a total of twelve)
are taken to form a frame.


L1 R1 L2 R2 L3 R3 L4 R4 L5 R5 L6 R6


The frame is then encoded in the form of 8-bit words. Each 16-bit audio
signal turns into two 8-bit words.


L1 LI R1 R1 L2 L2 R2 R2 L3 L3 R3 R3 L4 L4 R4 R4 L5 L5 R5 R5 L6 L6 R6 R6


This gives a grand total of 24 8-bit words.

The even words are then delayed by two blocks and the resulting "word"
scrambled. This delay and scramble is the first part of the interleaving
process.


The resulting 24 byte word (remember, it has an included two block delay
-- so some symbols in this word are from blocks two blocks behind) has 4
bytes of parity added. This particular parity is called "Q" parity. This
is used to correct errors due to the physical condition of the CD and
the way that the CD was recorded


Now, the resulting 24 + 4Q = 28 bytes word is interleaved. Each of the
28 bytes is delayed by a different period. Each period is an integral
multiple of 4 blocks. So the first byte might be delayed by 4 blocks,
the second by 8 blocks, the third by 12 blocks and so on. The
interleaving spreads the word over a total of 28 x 4 = 112 blocks. 


The resulting 28 byte words are again subjected to a parity operation.
This generates four more parity bytes called P bytes which are placed at
the end of the 28 bit data word. These are used to correct large scale
errors due to fingerprints and scratches. 

The word is now a total of 28 + 4 = 32 bytes long.


Finally, the another odd-even delay is performed -- but this time by
just a single block. Both the P and Q parity bits are inverted (turning
the "1s" into "0s") to assist data readout during muting. 


An 8-bit subcode is then added to the front end of the word. The subcode
specifies such things as the total number of selections on the disk,
their length, and so on. More on this later.


Next the data words are converted to EFM format. EFM means Eight to
Fourteen Modulation and is an incredibly clever way of reducing errors.
The idea is to minimize the number of 0 to 1 and 1-0 transitions -- thus
avoiding small pits. In EFM only those combinations of bits are used in
which more than two but less than 10 zeros appear continuously. 


For example, a digital 10 given as a binary 0000 1010 is an EFM 1001
0001 0000 00


Each frame finally has a 24-bit synchronization word attached to the
very front end -- (just for completeness the word is
(100000000001000000000010) and each group of 14 symbols is then coupled
by three merge bits. 


These merge bits are chosen to meet two goals:


1. No adjacent 1's from neighboring EFM encoded words


Remember that there are lots of EFM words which end in "1" -- as one
example, all the eight-bit binary words from 128 to 152 end in "1".
Similarly, there are EFM words that start in "1". Thus, it is relatively
straightforward to have to have adjacent EFM words that create adjacent
"1s". 


For example -- binary 128 and binary 57


10000000 in EFM is 00111001 in EFM is

01001000100001 10000000001000



2. The digital sum value is kept near zero


Minimizing the digital sum value is just an attempt to keep the average
number of "0's" and "1's" about the same. The value of +1 is assigned to
the "1" states and the value of -1 is assigned to the "0" states. Then,
the value of the merge bit is chosen to maintain the average near zero.


SO! The final frame (which started at 6*16*2 = 192 data bits) now
contains:



1 sync word          24  bits                                
1 subcode signal     14  bits                                 
6*2*2*14 data bits   336 bits                                
8*14 parity bits     112 bits                                
34*3 merge bits      102 bits                                

GRAND TOTAL          588 bits                                

And the data in this frame comes from 112 original sample blocks....




Now why on earth did they make it that complicated?

Well, by spreading the data all over the place (the "interleave"
processes) and adding large amount of TWO DIMENSIONAL parity data, it is
possible to reconstruct errors in the data read from the CD. These
errors range from single bit defects from the manufacturing process up
to large scratches.

The CIRC decoder is able to completely reconstruct error bursts of up to
3,500 bits (2.4 mm in length). It can also interpolate much larger error
bursts of up to 12,000 bits (8.5 mm). Any error more drastic than these
will cause the CD to mute the output to avoid serious speaker
damage....and it sounds horrible!

If a CD skips, it is usually a tracking error in the read assembly, much
like a needle jumping vinyl grooves....







> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Ola Andersson
> Sent: Thursday, 2 October 2003 6:21 PM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Scratchy CDs
> 
> 
> On Wednesday 01 October 2003 18:16, you wrote:
> > There is the low level parity check (well, actually it's two parity 
> > checks in a row) in each frame, which contains 6 stereo samples. It 
> > takes 588 channel bits (pit/land bits) to code those 6 samples (192 
> > payload
> > bits) - that's quite a ratio...
> > And for the question, whether ripping an audio track does error
> > correction - I think it's safe to assume that low level 
> correction does
> > take place, but high level correction can't be used - it's 
> simply not
> > present on an audio CD.
> 
> Well, a parity check isn't error correction, only error 
> detection. The question is what do ripping programs do when 
> they detect a parity error? I think professional CD players 
> tries to guess the correct sample values 
> (interpolation or something).
> For ripping CDs, see www.exactaudiocopy.de, this program 
> tries to do it right.
> 
> -- 
> Ola Andersson
> http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy
> 


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Thu Oct  2 12:25:13 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:25:13 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4C1@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

I have the larger one at home. Diameter ~2.5cm, from my head.
www.conrad.de is not exactly cheap. The other knobs cost the
same, arround 2 EUR. 

Maybe I can find another source, perhaps cheaper in 100 pieces.

m.c.

> >Perhaps larger dials are possible. More resolution, but also
> >more space.
> >There are knobs with a scale printed on them,
> >so the panel needs only an arrow (you can read
> >1.2, 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 and so on). These knobs are not cheap.
> >2.35 EUR each. See scale.jpg.
> 
> Those are nice looking knobs.  But they are expensive and 
> take up quite a 
> bit of real estate.  How big are they?
> 
>
> 


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Thu Oct  2 12:33:58 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:33:58 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4C2@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Another idea: why not use a LDR for sunlight detection.
Control voltages will depend on night/day, bright sky and rain.

I have heard about people recording the level of a lake for a year or so...

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of john mahoney
> Sent: Donnerstag, 2. Oktober 2003 05:32
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Cc: harrybissell; John L Marshall; Cynthia Webster
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> 
> 
> Hey, somebody has to defend Cyn, here!
> 
> The idea has artistic merit, except for the subscription 
> thing, bah humbug!
> ;-) Public news tickers aren't new, there's a national debt 
> counter (in
> Times Square?), a Nuclear Countdown Clock... But, art is "off 
> topic," so on
> with the DIY (... he said, narrowly avoiding an artistic debate).
> 
> You can use a PC to grab the data off the Internet and send out the
> corresponding MIDI data. A MIDI/CV converter completes the job.
> 
> The trick is reading HTTP and writing MIDI, but it's 
> *theoretically* easy.
> Internet and MIDI functions are built into Microsoft's 
> Software Development
> Kits, for one. If I had the tools, I'd try it.
> 
> Now, you wanted that PC in a Modcan-compatible module, right...?
> --
> john
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: "John L Marshall" <john.l.marshall at gte.net>
> Cc: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>;
> <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> 
> 
> > Yeah definately !!!
> >
> > "I'll have what the lady on the FLOOR is having...."
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > John L Marshall wrote:
> >
> > > Cynthia,
> > >
> > > Too many triple lattes.
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > John
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > www.sound-photo.com
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
> > > To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" 
> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
> > > Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> > >
> > > > (from a thread on the CGS list)
> > > >
> > > > Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
> > > >
> [big snip]
> 
> 


From jbv.silences at club-internet.fr  Thu Oct  2 12:52:17 2003
From: jbv.silences at club-internet.fr (jbv)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:52:17 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
References: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net> <00b801c38886$9b262770$6601a8c0@PURPLE> <3F7B86FC.2F18CC45@prodigy.net> <028201c38895$ba0f10c0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>
Message-ID: <3F7C035F.FF42CE00@club-internet.fr>



> Hey, somebody has to defend Cyn, here!
>
> The idea has artistic merit,

Yes, it's interesting from an artistic point of view (especially theconcept of
using VERY slow variations events to drive musical processes,
just like a random LLLLFO)

> You can use a PC to grab the data off the Internet and send out the
> corresponding MIDI data. A MIDI/CV converter completes the job.
>
> The trick is reading HTTP and writing MIDI, but it's *theoretically* easy.
> Internet and MIDI functions are built into Microsoft's Software Development
> Kits, for one. If I had the tools, I'd try it.

IMHO this can be achieved in a much simpler way : the idea is touse one of
those cheap Ubicom chips that can handle protocols
such as HTTP or SMTP. Each sound module would feature 1 of these
chips and therefore have its own IP address. The chip would make a request
over the net, which would actually trigger a CGI script on a server.
That script would grab all necessary data over the web, process them and shape

them as a suite of ASCII values. Those values would then be sent back to the
chip that made the request. The CGI script could even shape these values
into ready-to-use MIDI Ctrl data, and therefore would free the Ubicom
chip from further processing...
Well, there might be only 1 IP per whole synth... The idea is to have all
data grabbed & processed externally, so that the data loaded by the synth
is as slim and ready-to-use as possible...

Yes, this idea has an artistic value, but still quite limited : it is actually

very closed to 2D or 3D display of data grabbed on the web, except that
2D/3D is replaced by sound synthesis and/or processing. What I mean
is that it's quite straightforward and linear.

OTOH I think some more interesting things can be achived with various
electronic modules / instruments featuring some of these Ubicom chips,
located in various places on the planet and hooked to the net.
Some kind of realtime worldwide musical collaborations... Which could
also include some data grabbed here & there on the web, or locally...
I haven't brainstormed much on this, but the basic idea is to define a
limited set of musical rules and let things evolved into more complex
structures...
Of course, this kind of thing can be done locally, but I have the feeling
that adding the net to process might add some nice & unexpected features
to the process... Especially if it's an open process into which anyone with
his/her home-made and unique sound modules & processors can plug or
unplug as he likes, and therefore adding the contribution of his/her gear
anytime and anyhow he likes...

A few months back I posted a suggestion about the benefits of having an
IP address for each piece of gear and connecting it to the web, but didn't
get much response...
Just like often on this list when it's not about pitch shifters of expo
converters...  **SIGH**

JB

>
>
> Now, you wanted that PC in a Modcan-compatible module, right...?
> --
> john
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: "John L Marshall" <john.l.marshall at gte.net>
> Cc: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>;
> <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
>
> > Yeah definately !!!
> >
> > "I'll have what the lady on the FLOOR is having...."
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > John L Marshall wrote:
> >
> > > Cynthia,
> > >
> > > Too many triple lattes.
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > John
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > www.sound-photo.com
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
> > > To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
> > > Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> > >
> > > > (from a thread on the CGS list)
> > > >
> > > > Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
> > > >
> [big snip]





From daniel.araya at sr.se  Thu Oct  2 13:46:58 2003
From: daniel.araya at sr.se (Daniel Araya)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:46:58 +0200
Subject: Ang: Re: Re: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
Message-ID: <sf7c2c63.058@gwia.sr.se>

>>> "john mahoney" <jmahoney at gate.net> 2003-10-01 18:10:41 >>>
>Good info, Daniel. Thanks. Busy folks there at uCApps!
>
>10 bits is plenty good for most purposes, providing 1,024 different
levels.
>
>From what I saw, all the motorized faders are 10K Ohms. So, they won't
work
>everywhere.
>--
>john


Most motorized faders are (as you say) 10k but it is easy to hook it up
as an ordinary pot (voltage divider) and control any VC parameters.
There are nice motorized potentiometers too, for the best ones (and most
expensive!), check out Penny+Giles.

I think most motorized pots and faders use ordinary electric motors and
some form of gearbox or gear reduction and pullys or screws to move the
viper along the resistive track and are quite easy to drive with a
simple H-bridge ic or a H-bridge made out of a couple of transistors and
diodes.

/Daniel, Sweden


From amajorel at teaser.fr  Thu Oct  2 14:32:39 2003
From: amajorel at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:32:39 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] cutting down to "line level"
In-Reply-To: <CE2153093AF2AD4A8EB4B8131858BB8C015F15@porexc01.na.coherentinc.com>
References: <CE2153093AF2AD4A8EB4B8131858BB8C015F15@porexc01.na.coherentinc.com>
Message-ID: <20031002123239.GD26384@teaser.fr>

On 2003-10-01 12:46 -0700, Speth, John wrote:

> > How do most people here have the transformation of the 10V 
> > Synth level to line-standards?
> 
> I've had great luck with using 2 resistors soldered inside a
> passive attenuator assembly made of a 1/4 plug to 1/4 inline
> socket with a coax in between.  The series resistor goes in the
> socket and the shunt resistor goes in the plug.  The modular
> system voltage levels are so high that it's easy to select
> resistors that hardly affect the output impedance.

Easy for folks who actually know electronics, that is. Which
values did you use ? (I assume you shot for an output impedance of
a couple k.)

-- 
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Oct  2 14:33:40 2003
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:33:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] Clear Large Wasp Schematics Now Available!
In-Reply-To: <200310020820.h928KvSw068810@mail.umu.se>
Message-ID: <20031002123340.74377.qmail@web86208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi All- I have now put up some rather large jpegs of the Wasp Schematics for those that wanted them...I've been over a wasp twice before and the schematics are accurate. I have built two clones of this thing, pulled my hair out, shed tears, suffered from trauma and exhaustion! both never worked! I am quite intense and careful, but in the end gave up. Indeed, the wasp is almost fiendish in it's design...

http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com/Wasp.html

Best of luck to those who use them, har, har ,har!

Ken


http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com
Home of the M3X Analogue synthesizer...

---------------------------------
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From amajorel at teaser.fr  Thu Oct  2 14:41:34 2003
From: amajorel at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:41:34 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Verniers for Patch Recording
In-Reply-To: <03100122055102.00672@Robert>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030929221320.00a8ba68@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20031001074441.00a93e28@127.0.0.1> <03100122055102.00672@Robert>
Message-ID: <20031002124133.GE26384@teaser.fr>

On 2003-10-01 22:05 +0200, ASSI wrote:
> On Wednesday 01 October 2003 15:53, Ian Fritz wrote:
> > Well, if your synth has voltage control of every parameter, then yes,
> > you could bring each control voltage out and measure it.  But what
> > would you do for your EG attack and decay times if they are set by
> > resistance rather than voltage?  Photograph the envelope off a scope,
> > perhaps.
> 
> In that case it is probably easier to measure the timing of the 
> envelope itself, especially if you can bring out the trigger, gate and 
> comparator results as a logic signal.

The only time I had envelope times that were really critical was
when I used an EG as an oscillator, modulating the frequency of a
VCO. A frequency counter would be the answer. The EG drifted so
much that writing down the physical settings would not have done a
lot of good.

-- 
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From grichter at asapnet.net  Thu Oct  2 17:13:54 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:13:54 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Levels was [SDIY] Verniers for patch recording
In-Reply-To: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D751@SBIEXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <BBA1AAE2.3E9A5%grichter@asapnet.net>

> Modules with signal levels more suited to modern, low voltage electronics.
> Then you could start using nifty things like digipots. Makes interfacing to
> micros and things like that a lot easier too.

The thermal noise level is fixed by temperature. So the noise floor voltages
are pretty constant. The only way to increase signal to noise ratio is to
increase the SIGNAL. Using lower voltage ranges only degrades performance.

The reason so called "modern" analog electronics uses lower voltages is
because it requires less silicon. This increases the profitability of the
company at the customers expense. The customer is now constrained to
designing in a low voltage environment, with poorer results and extra effort
required to overcome the limitations of the low voltage product.

In digital the issue is power dissipation. 1.8 volts makes sense when there
are a billion transistors you need to get the heat away from.


From MAMETZGER at partners.org  Thu Oct  2 19:46:16 2003
From: MAMETZGER at partners.org (Metzger, Michael A)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:46:16 -0400 
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
Message-ID: <78C21185A8FDD611B4E300508B093DE10580B0C0@phsexch4.partners.org>

Martin,
The recording of a lake sounds fascinating - well, the concept is
fascinating, not sure how lively the recording would be. Is there anything
online about that project? 
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Czech Martin [mailto:Martin.Czech at micronas.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 6:34 AM
To: john mahoney; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Cc: harrybissell; John L Marshall; Cynthia Webster
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"


Another idea: why not use a LDR for sunlight detection.
Control voltages will depend on night/day, bright sky and rain.

I have heard about people recording the level of a lake for a year or so...

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of john mahoney
> Sent: Donnerstag, 2. Oktober 2003 05:32
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Cc: harrybissell; John L Marshall; Cynthia Webster
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> 
> 
> Hey, somebody has to defend Cyn, here!
> 
> The idea has artistic merit, except for the subscription 
> thing, bah humbug!
> ;-) Public news tickers aren't new, there's a national debt 
> counter (in
> Times Square?), a Nuclear Countdown Clock... But, art is "off 
> topic," so on
> with the DIY (... he said, narrowly avoiding an artistic debate).
> 
> You can use a PC to grab the data off the Internet and send out the
> corresponding MIDI data. A MIDI/CV converter completes the job.
> 
> The trick is reading HTTP and writing MIDI, but it's 
> *theoretically* easy.
> Internet and MIDI functions are built into Microsoft's 
> Software Development
> Kits, for one. If I had the tools, I'd try it.
> 
> Now, you wanted that PC in a Modcan-compatible module, right...?
> --
> john
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: "John L Marshall" <john.l.marshall at gte.net>
> Cc: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>;
> <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> 
> 
> > Yeah definately !!!
> >
> > "I'll have what the lady on the FLOOR is having...."
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > John L Marshall wrote:
> >
> > > Cynthia,
> > >
> > > Too many triple lattes.
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > John
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > www.sound-photo.com
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
> > > To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" 
> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
> > > Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> > >
> > > > (from a thread on the CGS list)
> > > >
> > > > Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
> > > >
> [big snip]
> 
> 


From synth1 at airmail.net  Thu Oct  2 21:40:16 2003
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:40:16 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] No NAMM, but a sale instead!
Message-ID: <004f01c3891d$064be580$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>

I have decided to skip NAMM this year (booth-wise). I still may show up roaming the aisles. It's
hard right now to justify the over $7500 needed to attend, plus it wrecks Christmas/New Year for
my family (last NAMM, I was laying out pc boards and stuffing modules from Christmas Day until 3
hours before my plane left).

Instead: from now until Oct 31st I'm having a AH/SDIY sale. All you have to do is place an order
AND in the comment field, say; AH/SDIY SALE so I know to manually apply the deduction.

< $1000 5%
$1000-$2000 10%
over $2000 10% + FREE shipping

Thanks to everyone for support and comments (both good AND 'bad').

Paul Schreiber
Synthesis Technology


From synth1 at airmail.net  Thu Oct  2 21:42:41 2003
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:42:41 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] URL would be nice......
Message-ID: <005501c3891d$57b76700$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>

Sorry!

www.synthtech.com

Paul S.


From grichter at asapnet.net  Thu Oct  2 21:47:53 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:47:53 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <20031002124133.GE26384@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <BBA1EB19.3E9B4%grichter@asapnet.net>

Bill Sequeira has come up with a compact patch notation scheme for modular
synthesizers. It uses a hierarchical notation to uniquely identify knobs and
connections in systems and multi-modules.

Comments are welcome.

http://www.wiard.com/support/MPNExplained-031001.pdf



From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct  2 21:52:01 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:52:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
Message-ID: <12054568.1065124321896.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

There was a series of recordings called 'Symphonies of the Planets' (IIRC) that was generated from data sent back from the Voyager space probes - magnetic fields of the planets, solar winds, and other stuff.

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Tillman <don at till.com>
Sent: Oct 1, 2003 11:59 PM
To: Cynthia Webster <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"

   > Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:54:13 -0700
   > From: Cynthia Webster <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
   > 
   > Imagine a module called WALL STREET featuring rows of output
   > jacks that present control voltages reflecting the actual
   > realworld realtime status of parameters such as the Dow Jones
   > Industrial Average, and other stocks.  You could have a whole
   > smorgesboard of outputs for the stocks and stock exchanges of
   > your choice: the NASDAC, Apple, Microsoft, spyders, etc.

That's not too different from Charles Dodge's "Earths Magnetic Field",
1970: 

  http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~book/MATCpages/chap.1/1.pops/1.1.sonif.html

The problem with WALL STREET is that the stock market probably won't
be open when you play a gig.  Best to use weather data.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com





From peter.ullrich at kapsch.net  Thu Oct  2 22:04:32 2003
From: peter.ullrich at kapsch.net (Ullrich Peter)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:04:32 +0200
Subject: AW: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
Message-ID: <7106E489D7E9DE44B3FDA28A4ECB22768363EA@PUMBAA.kapsch.co.at>

	>Another idea: why not use a LDR for sunlight detection.
	>Control voltages will depend on night/day, bright sky and rain.
	

	For this purpose an LDR is maybe a cheap but eventually not a good
solution...

	A better solution is the Sharp BS520 photo transistor as it has the same
spectrum as the human eye...

	Datasheet:
http://www.sharp.co.jp/products/device/ctlg/jsite23/table/pdf/dtc/photodiodes/bs
520_j.pdf

	Ciao
	Peter

	http://www.ullrich.at.tt



From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct  2 22:18:33 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:18:33 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
Message-ID: <28347215.1065125913966.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

That would make a good text file format for storing patch info on a computer that is both human and machine readable.
It's not too unlike the way electronic parts and connections are represented internally in schematic capture/PCB design software, but on a higher level.

-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Richter <grichter at asapnet.net>
Sent: Oct 2, 2003 12:47 PM
To: Andre Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>, synth diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)

Bill Sequeira has come up with a compact patch notation scheme for modular
synthesizers. It uses a hierarchical notation to uniquely identify knobs and
connections in systems and multi-modules.

Comments are welcome.

http://www.wiard.com/support/MPNExplained-031001.pdf






From steiseim at online.no  Thu Oct  2 22:41:46 2003
From: steiseim at online.no (Stein Seim)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:41:46 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Formant
Message-ID: <000401c38926$13e149c0$c41dfea9@no1music>

> Did you manage to find somewhere to produce your PCBs?
>  
> In the past, people have suggested taking a photocopy of the pattern to
> 'your local PCB etching shop'.  This is preferable to attempting to etch
> PCBs yourself, but you will still need to drill all the holes!

It's worth checking if you can get the back connectors to fit the 
boards before you start making them.  I need some for some 
old Formant modules and haven't been able to find them (in the
UK).


Steve Ridley

Hi!

Got a supplier here in Norway for those DIN 41617 connectors, about NOK 30,- each pair.
Only got the phone number, but will order 30 pairs during next week or so.
Maybe I can get Formant pcbs from Helm Elektronik in Germany.
Or else....film making, photo pcbs and positiv 20 is the next step.
And of coarse, a marvelous weekend with drilling :)

cheers
Stein
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From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Thu Oct  2 23:45:30 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:45:30 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Scream Listening Room
Message-ID: <BBA1EA89.D79E%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

Please excuse the cross-posting. Hope to see you all there:

http://www.electroacousticmusic.org/eamm/calendar.php?action=2&reference=146

best,

Peter


From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Thu Oct  2 23:46:40 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:46:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
In-Reply-To: <3F7C035F.FF42CE00@club-internet.fr>
Message-ID: <BBA1EAD0.105F2%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

Hi JBV!

Your ideas here are really great because it seem that you actually know
how to really implement something like this.

There is something about the fact that all of these voltage are based in
reality that appeals to me over arbitrarily random voltages.

I especially like your idea of Synthesists around the globe all
participating in a realtime interactive musical event via the net!
(sort of like the SETI project)

I believe that Gordon Mumma is one of the early EM composers to incorporate
sensory and environmental data into his music?

http://www.brainwashed.com/mumma/

http://www.lovely.com/bios/mumma.html

(or was that Otto Luening?)

http://www.newmusicbox.org/first-person/nov99/ottoluening.html

Anyway I believe one of these gentlemen built electronic musical circuits
into a top hat that made um, "funny noises" based of sensors incorporated
into the hat itself.

What could be done here now, mercury switches and accelerometers,
humidity, Polaroid sonar bounce for distance from other objects, video
camera, what else?

I have heard of others creating performance spaces where visitors
movements within the space itself create patterns in the sound,
(kind of like setting-up an elaborate "haunted house" for Halloween!)

One of my favorite pieces was a performance or rather an "installation"
of Composer David Behrman's that I saw at Mills College in the 70's called
"Cloud Music" with speakers distributed all around the campus.
There was a black and white video camera with a wide lens aimed at the sky,
and as clouds drifted in and out of it's field of view, they would pass by
photo sensors taped to a grid on the surface of a television monitor and
thus control the music.

http://www.lovely.com/bios/behrman.html

Simple, elegant, and quite beautiful

Cynthia


>> Hey, somebody has to defend Cyn, here!
>> 
>> The idea has artistic merit,
> 
> Yes, it's interesting from an artistic point of view (especially theconcept of
> using VERY slow variations events to drive musical processes,
> just like a random LLLLFO)
> 
>> You can use a PC to grab the data off the Internet and send out the
>> corresponding MIDI data. A MIDI/CV converter completes the job.
>> 
>> The trick is reading HTTP and writing MIDI, but it's *theoretically* easy.
>> Internet and MIDI functions are built into Microsoft's Software Development
>> Kits, for one. If I had the tools, I'd try it.
> 
> IMHO this can be achieved in a much simpler way : the idea is to use one of
> those cheap Ubicom chips that can handle protocols
> such as HTTP or SMTP. Each sound module would feature 1 of these
> chips and therefore have its own IP address. The chip would make a request
> over the net, which would actually trigger a CGI script on a server.
> That script would grab all necessary data over the web, process them and shape
> 
> them as a suite of ASCII values. Those values would then be sent back to the
> chip that made the request. The CGI script could even shape these values
> into ready-to-use MIDI Ctrl data, and therefore would free the Ubicom
> chip from further processing...
> Well, there might be only 1 IP per whole synth... The idea is to have all
> data grabbed & processed externally, so that the data loaded by the synth
> is as slim and ready-to-use as possible...
> 
> Yes, this idea has an artistic value, but still quite limited : it is actually
> 
> very closed to 2D or 3D display of data grabbed on the web, except that
> 2D/3D is replaced by sound synthesis and/or processing. What I mean
> is that it's quite straightforward and linear.
> 
> OTOH I think some more interesting things can be achived with various
> electronic modules / instruments featuring some of these Ubicom chips,
> located in various places on the planet and hooked to the net.
> Some kind of realtime worldwide musical collaborations... Which could
> also include some data grabbed here & there on the web, or locally...
> I haven't brainstormed much on this, but the basic idea is to define a
> limited set of musical rules and let things evolved into more complex
> structures...
> Of course, this kind of thing can be done locally, but I have the feeling
> that adding the net to process might add some nice & unexpected features
> to the process... Especially if it's an open process into which anyone with
> his/her home-made and unique sound modules & processors can plug or
> unplug as he likes, and therefore adding the contribution of his/her gear
> anytime and anyhow he likes...
> 
> A few months back I posted a suggestion about the benefits of having an
> IP address for each piece of gear and connecting it to the web, but didn't
> get much response...
> Just like often on this list when it's not about pitch shifters of expo
> converters...  **SIGH**
> 
> JB
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Now, you wanted that PC in a Modcan-compatible module, right...?
>> --
>> john
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
>> To: "John L Marshall" <john.l.marshall at gte.net>
>> Cc: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>;
>> <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
>> 
>>> Yeah definately !!!
>>> 
>>> "I'll have what the lady on the FLOOR is having...."
>>> 
>>> H^) harry
>>> 
>>> John L Marshall wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Cynthia,
>>>> 
>>>> Too many triple lattes.
>>>> 
>>>> Take care,
>>>> John
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> www.sound-photo.com
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
>>>> To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
>>>> Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
>>>> 
>>>>> (from a thread on the CGS list)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
>>>>> 
>> [big snip]
> 
> 
> 
> 


From allens at sgi.com  Fri Oct  3 00:02:45 2003
From: allens at sgi.com (Steven Allen)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:02:45 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
References: <BBA07EF5.10505%cynthia.webster@gte.net> <m2ekxwm8f8.fsf@till.com>
Message-ID: <3F7CA085.30D43E26@sgi.com>

Don Tillman wrote:
> 
>    > Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:54:13 -0700
>    > From: Cynthia Webster <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
>    >
>    > Imagine a module called WALL STREET featuring rows of output
>    > jacks that present control voltages reflecting the actual
>    > realworld realtime status of parameters such as the Dow Jones
>    > Industrial Average, and other stocks.  You could have a whole
>    > smorgesboard of outputs for the stocks and stock exchanges of
>    > your choice: the NASDAC, Apple, Microsoft, spyders, etc.
> 
> That's not too different from Charles Dodge's "Earths Magnetic Field",
> 1970:
> 
>   http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~book/MATCpages/chap.1/1.pops/1.1.sonif.html
> 
> The problem with WALL STREET is that the stock market probably won't
> be open when you play a gig.  Best to use weather data.
> 
>   -- Don
> 
> --
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don at till.com
> http://www.till.com

 Very Cool link Don
   Thanks
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From lesmizz at scampers.com  Fri Oct  3 00:46:11 2003
From: lesmizz at scampers.com (Les Mizzell)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 18:46:11 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Re: [AH] Scream Listening Room
In-Reply-To: <BBA1EA89.D79E%peter@buzzclick-music.com>
References: <BBA1EA89.D79E%peter@buzzclick-music.com>
Message-ID: <3F7CAAB3.6010905@scampers.com>


>Please excuse the cross-posting. Hope to see you all there:
>
>http://www.electroacousticmusic.org/eamm/calendar.php?action=2&reference=146
>

What's the chance of taping the performances and making them available 
for us "non-left-coast" folk?

-- 
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
?Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
 Virent ova! Viret perna!
 Dapem posthac non arcebo.
 Gratum tibi me praebebo.?



From julian at 22host24.com  Fri Oct  3 02:26:04 2003
From: julian at 22host24.com (Julian)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 01:26:04 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Clear Large Wasp Schematics Now Available!
References: <20031002123340.74377.qmail@web86208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02cf01c38944$eecb2ce0$8b4a9bd9@erzulie>

With this talk of the wasp, prehaps it would be a good time for me to ask if anyone has any details of mods for it?

Mine is soon to be leaving the gaffa tape and chippings construction that its living in now, and taking up residence in an aluminium or wooden flight case, so now would be a good time for me to look into the mods.  Id be particularly interested in an audio in for starters... (?)

Cheers, julian
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ken MacBeth 
  To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
  Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 1:33 PM
  Subject: [sdiy] Clear Large Wasp Schematics Now Available!


  Hi All- I have now put up some rather large jpegs of the Wasp Schematics for those that wanted them...I've been over a wasp twice before and the schematics are accurate. I have built two clones of this thing, pulled my hair out, shed tears, suffered from trauma and exhaustion! both never worked! I am quite intense and careful, but in the end gave up. Indeed, the wasp is almost fiendish in it's design...

  http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com/Wasp.html

  Best of luck to those who use them, har, har ,har!

  Ken



  http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com
  Home of the M3X Analogue synthesizer...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
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From peake at pacificnet.net  Fri Oct  3 02:53:49 2003
From: peake at pacificnet.net (Mike Peake)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:53:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Re: [AH] Scream Listening Room
In-Reply-To: <3F7CAAB3.6010905@scampers.com>
References: <BBA1EA89.D79E%peter@buzzclick-music.com>
 <3F7CAAB3.6010905@scampers.com>
Message-ID: <f05100304bba278f90a0c@[65.148.146.120]>

At 6:46 PM -0400 10/2/03, Les Mizzell wrote:
>>Please excuse the cross-posting. Hope to see you all there:
>>
>>http://www.electroacousticmusic.org/eamm/calendar.php?action=2&reference=146
>>
>
>What's the chance of taping the performances and making them 
>available for us "non-left-coast" folk?

Aw neat, Rosenboom's going to be there...

Easier,
-- 
Mike Peake, Your Postwar Administrator

_______________________________

Specifications:

"In 30+ years, no one has been able to re-create the sound
of a Pultec using the same technology - what makes you think
we'll be able to nail it digitally in our lifetime?"
__________________
Brad Blackwood
Mastering Engineer


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Fri Oct  3 05:28:37 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 05:28:37 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] No NAMM, but a sale instead!
In-Reply-To: <004f01c3891d$064be580$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <20031003032837.92101.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- Paul Schreiber <synth1 at airmail.net> skrev: > I have decided to skip
NAMM this year (booth-wise). I still may show up
> roaming the aisles. It's
> hard right now to justify the over $7500 needed to attend, plus it

Iiiih, that was expencive! How big area was that for?
Hmm, does anyone know what they charge at Music Messe
Frankfurt for lets say a 2sqM?

Regards
KD

> wrecks Christmas/New Year for
> my family (last NAMM, I was laying out pc boards and stuffing modules
> from Christmas Day until 3
> hours before my plane left).
> 
> Instead: from now until Oct 31st I'm having a AH/SDIY sale. All you have
> to do is place an order
> AND in the comment field, say; AH/SDIY SALE so I know to manually apply
> the deduction.
> 
> < $1000 5%
> $1000-$2000 10%
> over $2000 10% + FREE shipping
> 
> Thanks to everyone for support and comments (both good AND 'bad').
> 
> Paul Schreiber
> Synthesis Technology
>  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From gur_mil at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  3 06:05:26 2003
From: gur_mil at hotmail.com (Gur Milstein)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:05:26 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] No NAMM, but a sale instead!
References: <20031003032837.92101.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Law11-OE70z5cBG83Fn00001ad8@hotmail.com>

From: "Karl Dalen" <karldalen at yahoo.se>
> Iiiih, that was expencive! How big area was that for?
> Hmm, does anyone know what they charge at Music Messe
> Frankfurt for lets say a 2sqM?

Starting at 144 Euro for each sqm , but there is so much more to pay to make
a show , hotel , catalog , bringing over a modular system , flying tickets ,
food , beer...........etc etc


Gur Milstein
ANALOGIC Analog Control System

http://www.analogic-acs.com


From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Fri Oct  3 14:39:27 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:39:27 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <BBA1EB19.3E9B4%grichter@asapnet.net>
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

Mr. Richter,
 I would imagine that the language should be kept tight in the beginning.
There is a comment at the end of the document about modifying the code as
needed. This notation may well become a standard. You never know. In a few
years this may be the next MIDI...

My two cents.

Michael


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Grant Richter
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:48 PM
To: Andre Majorel; synth diy
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)


Bill Sequeira has come up with a compact patch notation scheme for modular
synthesizers. It uses a hierarchical notation to uniquely identify knobs and
connections in systems and multi-modules.

Comments are welcome.

http://www.wiard.com/support/MPNExplained-031001.pdf





____________________________________________________________
Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Fri Oct  3 15:11:51 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:11:51 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
Message-ID: <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de>

Hi all,

Why not use something which is a standard already? And something which 
is extensible per se. Read: XML.

Cheers,
  Ren?

Michael Boracci wrote:
> Mr. Richter,
>  I would imagine that the language should be kept tight in the beginning.
> There is a comment at the end of the document about modifying the code as
> needed. This notation may well become a standard. You never know. In a few
> years this may be the next MIDI...
> 
> My two cents.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Grant Richter
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:48 PM
> To: Andre Majorel; synth diy
> Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
> 
> 
> Bill Sequeira has come up with a compact patch notation scheme for modular
> synthesizers. It uses a hierarchical notation to uniquely identify knobs and
> connections in systems and multi-modules.
> 
> Comments are welcome.
> 
> http://www.wiard.com/support/MPNExplained-031001.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
> Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/
> 


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From scott at tellun.com  Fri Oct  3 19:35:03 2003
From: scott at tellun.com (Scott Juskiw)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:35:03 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de>
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
 <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <p05100300bba36319dc25@[192.168.1.101]>

IMHO, XML is not particularly "human readable", much more "machine parseable".

At 3:11 PM +0200 2003/10/03, Ren? Schmitz wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Why not use something which is a standard already? And something 
>which is extensible per se. Read: XML.
>
>Cheers,
>  Ren?
>


From rayw at csd.net  Fri Oct  3 19:41:01 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:41:01 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Improved VCO Posted
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANKEHMCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi DIYers

I improved my "Improved & Updated VCO" a bit more.

Still uses CA3046 but now uses a separate Op-Amp for the pulse wave
comparator.
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/OctVCO_FixedSquare.html

Uses LM394 super-matched pair and uses a separate Op-Amp for the pulse wave
comparator.
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/OctVCO_LM394_FixedSquare.html

I suggest that if you build these you try LF444 and LF442 instead of TL0's
for lower power consumption. Also if you have a 2K tempco then use 100Ks for
the control voltage inputs. My tempco is 1K (PT146) and thus the 49.9K
inputs.

Enjoy

Ray


From clone45 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  3 19:44:46 2003
From: clone45 at hotmail.com (Bret Truchan)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:44:46 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
Message-ID: <BAY1-F1174jxc0tW3qs0000b246@hotmail.com>


Interesting!  If you'd like to prototype it first, you might consider doing 
it in Perl.
Here's an article that describes a similar project using Midi::Realtime (a 
Perl module).

http://www.generative.net/papers/MIDI::Realtime/

I would suggest using LWP::Simple to get the web content.  Here's the 
documentation for it:

http://search.cpan.org/dist/libwww-perl/lwptut.pod

If you _do_ decide to prototype it in Perl, I'd be happy to answer any Perl 
questions. :-)
Cheers!

- Bret

_________________________________________________________________
Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month.  Limited time offer-- 
sign up now!   http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup


From steiseim at online.no  Fri Oct  3 22:17:39 2003
From: steiseim at online.no (Stein Seim)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:17:39 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] BC560C: is there a compatible transistor?
References: <001d01c14c3e$f693a8c0$0100a8c0@wwnet.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c389eb$66400f60$c41dfea9@no1music>

Hi!

Do you mean BC 560 or BC 506?
I think you can use BC 557 for the BC 560

Stein
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "vitreousflux" <vitreousflux at wwnet.net>
To: "`Synth DIY Maillist" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 9:06 PM
Subject: [sdiy] BC560C: is there a compatible transistor?


> I have a schemo that calls for a BC506C transistor,
> 
> It seems to be unavailble from a few suppliers I use.
> 
> Is there a compatible tranny I can use instead?
> 
> 
> Thanks much
> 
> Rob
> 
> 



From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Sat Oct  4 00:36:54 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 15:36:54 -0700 
Subject: [sdiy] Improved VCO Posted
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D756@SBIEXCHANGE>

*VERY* cool stuff, Ray. Thanks for sharing all your circuits with us. I'm
impressed by the depth and breadth of all you've done on your site. Think
I'm gonna have to whip up a few of those nifty LFO circuits you've got (you
can NEVER have too many LFOs). 

Thanks again for sharing. This is one of the better examples of what I like
about the DIY community and SDIY in particular!


Tim Servo


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Wilson [mailto:rayw at csd.net]
> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 10:41 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] Improved VCO Posted
> 
> Hi DIYers
> 
> I improved my "Improved & Updated VCO" a bit more.
> 
> Still uses CA3046 but now uses a separate Op-Amp for the pulse wave
> comparator.
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/OctVCO_FixedSquare.html
> 
> Uses LM394 super-matched pair and uses a separate Op-Amp for the pulse
> wave
> comparator.
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/OctVCO_LM394_FixedSquare.html
> 
> I suggest that if you build these you try LF444 and LF442 instead of TL0's
> for lower power consumption. Also if you have a 2K tempco then use 100Ks
> for
> the control voltage inputs. My tempco is 1K (PT146) and thus the 49.9K
> inputs.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> Ray



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From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct  4 04:29:07 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 20:29:07 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] VTL5C2 Phase Shifter Sound Files
In-Reply-To: <000901c3865b$bb2f6fe0$f8c24bab@default>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANAEIBCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

EXtremely cool Scott. I gotta build one of these. I look forward to your
schemo.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Scott Stites
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:32 AM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] VTL5C2 Phase Shifter Sound Files


Hi gang,

I've posted some of my 10 stage VTL5C2 phase shifter sound files at this
address:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/slsdiy/id10.html

I'll post a schemo when I have things nailed down a bit more (after I've
tried all the 'kitchen sink' stuff).

Cheers,
Scott


From don at till.com  Sat Oct  4 11:02:18 2003
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: 04 Oct 2003 02:02:18 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de> (message from
	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?= on Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:11:51 +0200)
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com> <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <m2pthdtlyd.fsf@till.com>

   > Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:11:51 +0200
   > From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?= <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de>
   > 
   > Why not use something which is a standard already? And something
   > which is extensible per se. Read: XML.

I agree.  This is a great use for XML.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com


From amajorel at teaser.fr  Sat Oct  4 11:33:19 2003
From: amajorel at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:33:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de>
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com> <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <20031004093319.GD9815@teaser.fr>

On 2003-10-03 15:11 +0200, Ren? Schmitz wrote:

> Why not use something which is a standard already? And something which 
> is extensible per se. Read: XML.

XML is nice in a way but it's optimised for parsing by machines.
For humans, it's a PITA to read or write.

Would you prefer to read and write this :

  group "groupid"
  {
    item "item1";
    item "item2";
  };

or this ?

  <group id="groupid">
    <item id="item1" />
    <item id="item2" />
  </group>

-- 
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Sat Oct  4 14:33:18 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:33:18 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <20031004093319.GD9815@teaser.fr>
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com> <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de> <20031004093319.GD9815@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <3F7EBE0E.7040901@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Andre et al.,

> XML is nice in a way but it's optimised for parsing by machines.
> For humans, it's a PITA to read or write.

Actually you could say that about almost any computer language, machine 
parsing is the very point of these.

I wouldn't mind, and the bonus is there are lots of tools available 
which make the task of creating XML easier, no need to hack all this by 
hand.

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From buchi at takeonetech.de  Sat Oct  4 14:33:21 2003
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:33:21 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <20031004093319.GD9815@teaser.fr>
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com> <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de> <20031004093319.GD9815@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <l8ftnv4k0e3s2sbuh80j6jupqvs6va00pp@4ax.com>


>Would you prefer to read and write this :
>or this ?

Whether this is C-Style or HTML-Style does not matter.
A trained person (read: programmer) is able to read both
fluently, and a mere mortal will think both notations suck.

But ANY thing that has to be machine-readable without enormous
work for te parsing will need special characters, sequences and
formatting rules that can be interpreted by a simple parser,
and errors can be recognized.
Thnak god that most people (and programs) use readable ASCII
characters in the meantime, and not strange <ESC> or other
nonprontable sequences now...


-Michael Buchstaller


From grichter at asapnet.net  Sat Oct  4 14:55:01 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 07:55:01 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
Message-ID: <BBA42D55.3E9FC%grichter@asapnet.net>

Nothing that ambitious is or was intended. We just needed a way to notate
patches that didn't take up a lot of space.

BTW, my bad, it was Archimedes who had the "Method of Exhaustion", a
precursor to limit theory, not Aristotle. It's all Greek to me! ;^)

http://people.uleth.ca/~jonathan.seldin/EML.pdf

> From: "Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:39:27 -0400
> To: "Grant Richter" <grichter at asapnet.net>, "Andre Majorel"
> <amajorel at teaser.fr>, "synth diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
> 
> Mr. Richter,
> I would imagine that the language should be kept tight in the beginning.
> There is a comment at the end of the document about modifying the code as
> needed. This notation may well become a standard. You never know. In a few
> years this may be the next MIDI...
> 
> My two cents.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Grant Richter
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:48 PM
> To: Andre Majorel; synth diy
> Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
> 
> 
> Bill Sequeira has come up with a compact patch notation scheme for modular
> synthesizers. It uses a hierarchical notation to uniquely identify knobs and
> connections in systems and multi-modules.
> 
> Comments are welcome.
> 
> http://www.wiard.com/support/MPNExplained-031001.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
> Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/
> 


From moog at qwest.net  Sat Oct  4 16:21:07 2003
From: moog at qwest.net (James R. Coplin)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:21:07 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <20031004093319.GD9815@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <001401c38a82$c06916c0$e9fce73f@home>

True except that the second one I can slap on a style sheet and read it
however I want! Not just layout but format as well: HTML, PDF, etc.

James R. Coplin
***************
If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
simply tell them i've gone out the window
for a spot of tea and am not 
expected back any time soon.
***************

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:owner-synth-
> diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Andre Majorel
> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 4:33 AM
> To: synth diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
> 
> On 2003-10-03 15:11 +0200, Ren? Schmitz wrote:
> 
> > Why not use something which is a standard already? And something
which
> > is extensible per se. Read: XML.
> 
> XML is nice in a way but it's optimised for parsing by machines.
> For humans, it's a PITA to read or write.
> 
> Would you prefer to read and write this :
> 
>   group "groupid"
>   {
>     item "item1";
>     item "item2";
>   };
> 
> or this ?
> 
>   <group id="groupid">
>     <item id="item1" />
>     <item id="item2" />
>   </group>
> 
> --
> Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
> http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/




From teenagewasteland at prodigy.net  Sat Oct  4 20:10:06 2003
From: teenagewasteland at prodigy.net (MED)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:10:06 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] ot: dupe messages?
Message-ID: <200310041310.06455.teenagewasteland@prodigy.net>

I'm wondering if this is a problem with my email provider or if it's with the 
list.
Starting a few days ago i've started getting a LOT of dupe messages. Like, 
today, only half or so of the messages were ones i hadn't already received; 
the ones i had received were sent out monday or so -- it's as though it's 
sending old messages.

-med, waiting for verifying or disproving his sanity


From music.maker at gte.net  Sat Oct  4 20:18:09 2003
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:18:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ot: dupe messages?
Message-ID: <200310041818.h94II8610141@linux6.lan>

I too, have sporadically received duplicate old messages.

MED <teenagewasteland at prodigy.net> wrote:
>I'm wondering if this is a problem with my email provider or if it's with the 
>list.
>Starting a few days ago i've started getting a LOT of dupe messages. Like, 
>today, only half or so of the messages were ones i hadn't already received; 
>the ones i had received were sent out monday or so -- it's as though it's 
>sending old messages.
>
>-med, waiting for verifying or disproving his sanity
>

=========================================================  
- Where merit is not rewarded, excellence fades.
- Hydrogen is pointless without solar.
- What good are laws that only lawyers understand?
- The media's credibility should always be questioned.
- Governments do nothing well, save collect taxes.

-- Scott Gravenhorst | LegoManiac / Lego Trains / RIS 1.5
-- Linux Rex         | RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FatMan/
-- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/


From tpaddock at seanet.com  Sat Oct  4 21:56:47 2003
From: tpaddock at seanet.com (Toby Paddock)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:56:47 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] glue/paper/clear-spray panel
Message-ID: <002901c38ab1$bfa2ae20$91cb4b43@yourjjezkx0elp>

Thanks for the front panel ideas. I don't remember
whoever(s) it was that talked about it, but the idea
came from here.

I made a one-time use indicator panel for a demo by...

printing on regular paper,
spray adhesive on aluminum panel,
laid panel on paper (with paper correct side up, unlike my first
attempt)
trimmed paper by scraping a knife along the edge
clear spray, start with VERY VERY light coats
drill led holes with a step drill

Worked good.

Thanks again,
Toby Paddock


From amajorel at teaser.fr  Sat Oct  4 21:57:09 2003
From: amajorel at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:57:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <l8ftnv4k0e3s2sbuh80j6jupqvs6va00pp@4ax.com>
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCIEMBCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com> <3F7D7597.1020003@uni-bonn.de> <20031004093319.GD9815@teaser.fr> <l8ftnv4k0e3s2sbuh80j6jupqvs6va00pp@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20031004195709.GE9815@teaser.fr>

On 2003-10-04 14:33 +0200, Michael Buchstaller wrote:

> >Would you prefer to read and write this :
> >or this ?
> 
> Whether this is C-Style or HTML-Style does not matter.

s/C/TCL/
s/HTML/XML/

> A trained person (read: programmer) is able to read both
> fluently, and a mere mortal will think both notations suck.

Oversimplification. I'd wager that a mere mortal will have less
trouble with a TCL-like syntax than with XML. And a programmer
will be able to read text with less effort. It's not just
whether or not you can do it, it's also how much it costs to do
it.

If it's important to be able to read modular patches into
spreadsheets, that could also be achieved by writing a program
to convert back and forth between the notation language and XML.

XML has the advantage of being easier to parse by machines. It
also has the disadvantage of being harder to read or write by
humans. For a given application, you need to determine which
problem matters most and make your decision accordingly.

-- 
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Sat Oct  4 22:08:25 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:08:25 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] VTL5C2 Phase Shifter Sound Files
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANAEIBCDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <000a01c38ab3$4b8b3820$8f09be3f@default>

Thanks Ray!  I'll try get it to schematic, soon!  I'm basically just
chaining  the standard op amp all pass filter configuration using TL08X op
amps, with 10K resistors, 2N7 capacitors, and the VTL5C2 as the variable
resistor (with a 10M resistor in parallel with it).  I used VTL5C2's mainly
because they can be had cheap.  If I had my druthers, I would use VTL5C3's.
But, the VTL5C2's sound just as good, they're just slower.

The Vactrol LED's are all chained in series.  The anode of first LED is
connected to +15V, the cathode of the last LED is connected to the expo
current sink.   I'm pretty much using Rene Schmitz's exp current sink from
his 4069 VCO design to suck the current through the LED's (I'm using two
2N3904's).  You might have to play with the resistor values a bit to fine
tune it for the sensitivity of the Vactrols, but it worked pretty well right
off the bat using a pot as a voltage divider for the CV.

http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/

The output of the chain goes back to the input mixer for regeneration.

Then it's just a matter of mixing the output of the all pass filters back
with the dry signal.   As an extra for the Phase/Antiphase stuff, I ran the
resonance loop back to the resonance mixer, with one input going to the
non-inverting input of the mixer (first stage), and the other input going
into the inverting input of the mixer (second stage of the mixer).  I have a
switch that will select which stage the resonance signal goes to.  Then, on
the dry/wet mixer, if you turn the dry signal all the way down, and get just
the wet signal, and crank the resonance way up, you can get those funky
formant-like tones out of it.  Switching the resonance to phase or
anti-phase makes a big difference in the timbre.  Beware, though, it doesn't
work well if you're mixing dry signal in, and having it in anti-phase can
actually work against you for 'normal' phase shifter work.  Right now, I
actually have this as a second resonance loop with the switch, so I don't
forget and leave it in anti-phase and then wonder why my phase shifter went
to pot  =0) - I just crank it down when I'm not abusing it in that manner.

This is the core of what I eventually would like to have as a finished, very
cool phase shifter.  One thing I think would make a great module would be to
use 6 VTL5C3/2 Dual Vactrols and configure it a la the Mutron BiPhase - IE
12 stages altogether that could be either run in parallel in 6 stages each
or 12 stages in series.

Nice work on the VCO, BTW!

Cheers
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wilson" <rayw at csd.net>
To: "Scott Stites" <scottnoanh at peoplepc.com>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 7:29 PM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] VTL5C2 Phase Shifter Sound Files


> EXtremely cool Scott. I gotta build one of these. I look forward to your
> schemo.
>
> Ray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Scott Stites
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:32 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] VTL5C2 Phase Shifter Sound Files
>
>
> Hi gang,
>
> I've posted some of my 10 stage VTL5C2 phase shifter sound files at this
> address:
>
> http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/slsdiy/id10.html
>
> I'll post a schemo when I have things nailed down a bit more (after I've
> tried all the 'kitchen sink' stuff).
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Oct  4 22:14:04 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 16:14:04 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] AlumaJet part II
References: <002901c38ab1$bfa2ae20$91cb4b43@yourjjezkx0elp>
Message-ID: <3F7F2A0C.1732E398@prodigy.net>

Since you brought up the eternal panel marking issue....

Re: AlumaJet ink jet printable aluminum sheets...

After exposing the AlumaJet test specimins to the Michigan
Direct sunlight all summer (which, argueably... is not real
direct or present for more than five minutes a day in direct
form :^)...

I can say that the Pigment based ink way outperforms the Dye
based ink.  The test panels are on the inside of a window, so
some UV is absorbed by the glass.

The Pigment ink is still quite black , the dye has faded a little bit

Duh... I suppose there should have been a control panel placed
in direct Michigan Darkness, huh ???   :^P

H^) harry


From ka4hjh at gte.net  Sun Oct  5 01:41:13 2003
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:41:13 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] AlumaJet part II
In-Reply-To: <3F7F2A0C.1732E398@prodigy.net>
References: <002901c38ab1$bfa2ae20$91cb4b43@yourjjezkx0elp>
 <3F7F2A0C.1732E398@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <p05111a05bba50a1a30f3@[67.200.137.19]>

>I can say that the Pigment based ink way outperforms the Dye
>based ink.  The test panels are on the inside of a window, so
>some UV is absorbed by the glass.

Not much--plate glass is fairly transparent to UV. And since they're both
receiving the same amount the test is valid.

I used to expose PC boards by putting the negative and sensitized board in
a picture frame--behind the glass. Worked like a charm.

>The Pigment ink is still quite black , the dye has faded a little bit

No surprise there.
-- 

Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

"You'd PAY to know what you REALLY think"--Dobbs


From rayw at csd.net  Sun Oct  5 04:01:24 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:01:24 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <20031004195709.GE9815@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANKEIKCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi All

Just my two cents.

As a programmer I had to reply on this one. One of XML's basic properties is
that   it is readable by a human. With proper use of elements and attributes
it can be made very readable just by itself. Using XSL to transform it is
also a major plus. With a proper xsl transform the XML can be put into a
form that is as readable as you could possibly want.

I'd vote for XML as the standard.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Andre Majorel
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 1:57 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)


On 2003-10-04 14:33 +0200, Michael Buchstaller wrote:

> >Would you prefer to read and write this :
> >or this ?
>
> Whether this is C-Style or HTML-Style does not matter.

s/C/TCL/
s/HTML/XML/

> A trained person (read: programmer) is able to read both
> fluently, and a mere mortal will think both notations suck.

Oversimplification. I'd wager that a mere mortal will have less
trouble with a TCL-like syntax than with XML. And a programmer
will be able to read text with less effort. It's not just
whether or not you can do it, it's also how much it costs to do
it.

If it's important to be able to read modular patches into
spreadsheets, that could also be achieved by writing a program
to convert back and forth between the notation language and XML.

XML has the advantage of being easier to parse by machines. It
also has the disadvantage of being harder to read or write by
humans. For a given application, you need to determine which
problem matters most and make your decision accordingly.

--
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From sbernardi at comcast.net  Sun Oct  5 06:10:32 2003
From: sbernardi at comcast.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 21:10:32 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
Message-ID: <3F7F99B8.8070309@comcast.net>

Just what we need - another filter circuit. Anyway, I've always liked 
the CEM3320 filter chips, which has 4 transconductance stages which can 
yield any of the standard filter response (HP, LP, BP, and All Pass) in 
4th order, depending on how you interconnect the stages.  I hit on the 
idea of using analog switches to do the interconnecting and build a 
switchable (not simultaneous) multimode filter. I previously built one 
with a CEM3320 that yielded BP and LP functions.  The  new circuit 
contains no CEMs but is built with LM13700 OTA's and MAX413 analog switches.
The HP and LP functions work perfectly, just as I expected. The BP 
however doesn't seem to respond to the resonance settings as well as it 
should (and certainly not as well as the CEM3320 BP).
Maybe some of you geniuses can take a look a make suggestions (make 
suggestions even if you don't consider yourself a genius!).
I've got to break down and build me another case. I've got a box full of 
loose modules without a home.

http://home.comcast.net/~sbernardi/elec/og2/og3_4pmultimode.html

-- 
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at comcast.net




From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Oct  5 09:51:00 2003
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:51:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] moog tubular capacitors...
In-Reply-To: <3F7F99B8.8070309@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20031005075100.98747.qmail@web86204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

I've always wondered about the capacitors that were used in the Prodigy, Liberation etc.- they looked like resistors but were caps! Any idea where to get them?
Best to All, Ken

Scott Bernardi <sbernardi at comcast.net> wrote:
Just what we need - another filter circuit. Anyway, I've always liked 
the CEM3320 filter chips, which has 4 transconductance stages which can 
yield any of the standard filter response (HP, LP, BP, and All Pass) in 
4th order, depending on how you interconnect the stages. I hit on the 
idea of using analog switches to do the interconnecting and build a 
switchable (not simultaneous) multimode filter. I previously built one 
with a CEM3320 that yielded BP and LP functions. The new circuit 
contains no CEMs but is built with LM13700 OTA's and MAX413 analog switches.
The HP and LP functions work perfectly, just as I expected. The BP 
however doesn't seem to respond to the resonance settings as well as it 
should (and certainly not as well as the CEM3320 BP).
Maybe some of you geniuses can take a look a make suggestions (make 
suggestions even if you don't consider yourself a genius!).
I've got to break down and build me another case. I've got a box full of 
loose modules without a home.

http://home.comcast.net/~sbernardi/elec/og2/og3_4pmultimode.html

-- 
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at comcast.net




http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com
Home of the M3X Analogue synthesizer...

---------------------------------
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From jbv.silences at club-internet.fr  Sun Oct  5 13:45:37 2003
From: jbv.silences at club-internet.fr (jbv)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 11:45:37 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Collaborative computing resources and analog design
Message-ID: <3F800461.3400C0F3@club-internet.fr>

Some of you guys probably heard of this :
http://www.computing.vt.edu/research_computing/terascale/

That made me think that there's a lot of computing resources
out there on the net... The Seti ppl understood it early when
launching their screensaver program...

On a smaller scale, I'm sure there's a possibility to use the
computing resources of the members of this list to run some
distributed screensaver / app running genetic algorithms to
improve existing analog electronic designs and/or to imagine
new ones...
I remember a couple of years ago reading some articles about
such GA techniques used in some other fields (like improving
cranes by 20%)...

I bet we're all too busy at work (or looking for a job) to
undertake something like that.
But for someone looking for ideas for a PhD in engeneering
for instance, or anything similar, it could be a subject of
choice...

JB



From buchi at takeonetech.de  Sun Oct  5 15:25:02 2003
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:25:02 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: dupe messages?
In-Reply-To: <200310041818.h94II8610141@linux6.lan>
References: <200310041818.h94II8610141@linux6.lan>
Message-ID: <ds60ovgak59ro0hm3d0e2nnl9l907gsmfs@4ax.com>

Same here, for a few days now.
Bot not all messages are duplicated, only bount every 3rd one...



-Michael Buchstaller


From Ordeish at aol.com  Sun Oct  5 16:30:25 2003
From: Ordeish at aol.com (Ordeish at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 10:30:25 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] 9400 Frequency to Voltage IC?
Message-ID: <6F6E4C24.50CCA075.001977BE@aol.com>

 Hi all. A friend has just given me the great present of "music Synthesizer A mnual of design and construction"

 I love it! Anyway, in it there is a design for a frequency to voltage converter. It uses a 9400 F/V IC. I cant seem to find it. Is there another part that is the same thing?
 Also if anyone is familiar with this book, there are alot of designs that go on different voltages. I was hoping to use 12v for things. How easy is it to change things to make them work on a different voltage than in the book?


thanks

edward


From elmystico at earthlink.net  Sun Oct  5 17:20:05 2003
From: elmystico at earthlink.net (Delia & Gavin)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 11:20:05 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] 9400 Frequency to Voltage IC?
Message-ID: <E1A6AtH-0004UY-00@snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net>

be careful of that book, there's a lot of really bad designs in it (like the
resistor divider based power supply and the sequencer that puts oute
negative steps instead of positive ones).  But there are some good ones.  A
company called micro chip still makes the 9400.  I think they're in Canada. 
If you have trouble finding them let me know and I'll poke around a bit
more.
good luck!
G.
----------
>From: Ordeish at aol.com
>To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>Subject: [sdiy] 9400 Frequency to Voltage IC?
>Date: Sun, Oct 5, 2003, 10:30 AM
>

> Hi all. A friend has just given me the great present of "music Synthesizer 
>A mnual of design and construction"
>
> I love it! Anyway, in it there is a design for a frequency to voltage 
>converter. It uses a 9400 F/V IC. I cant seem to find it. Is there another 
>part that is the same thing?
> Also if anyone is familiar with this book, there are alot of designs that 
>go on different voltages. I was hoping to use 12v for things. How easy is 
>it to change things to make them work on a different voltage than in the book?
>
>
>thanks
>
>edward


From synth at charlielamm.com  Sun Oct  5 17:39:25 2003
From: synth at charlielamm.com (synth at charlielamm.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Slightly OT: ADAT Optical switcher
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0310050821190.769-100000@charlielamm.com>

I am thinking about building a 4 x 2 switcher for Alesis optical "light
pipe" digital audio.

a) Does anyone know the receptacles used in this?  It's some sort of
TOSLINK type part.  Can someone point me to the Mouser part #?

b) I assume I'd need a buffer between the input and output.  I haven't
started to mess with this yet, but, reading what I have about ADAT and
TOSLINK digital signalling, I assume I'd need very little else,
electronics-wise; it seems pretty simple to me.

INPUT --->BUFFER---->Switch---->OUTPUT
                           ---->OUTPUT

Does anyone know which buffer Alesis (or Hosa in the ODS330, or Sonic
solutions or whomever) uses for this?  Is it just a CD4010 or equiv?

Has anyone else ever tried to build one of these?  Any advice/suggestions?
Should I just buy 2 of the Hosa's (but what fun would that be?)

Thanks in advance for the help as always.

--CL


From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Sun Oct  5 17:59:23 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 17:59:23 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: dupe messages?
In-Reply-To: <200310041310.06455.teenagewasteland@prodigy.net>
References: <200310041310.06455.teenagewasteland@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <03100511331309.00671@Robert>

On Saturday 04 October 2003 20:10, MED wrote:
> Starting a few days ago i've started getting a LOT of dupe messages.
> Like, today, only half or so of the messages were ones i hadn't
> already received; the ones i had received were sent out monday or so
> -- it's as though it's sending old messages.

Yes, I've seen some re-plays as well. I also get some of the replies 
before I get to see the questions, which I think is indicative of the 
same problem.


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

DIY Stuff:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#DIY



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Oct  5 19:26:41 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:26:41 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Wasp Schematics
Message-ID: <3F805450.F217C2D1@prodigy.net>

Hi all...

I got the Wasp schematics pages A,B,C,D...
but I dont see the filter etc.  Am I missing
some pages ?   I think Ken has taken it down
now.

If there are any pages you have and I'm missing
please contact me off list (because it would be
a bad thing if 50 people tried to e-mail me the
same thing  ;^)

TIA

H^) harry


From kdowns at optusnet.com.au  Sun Oct  5 19:30:22 2003
From: kdowns at optusnet.com.au (Kevin Downs)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 03:30:22 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Hard Sync frequency ratios
In-Reply-To: <03100511331309.00671@Robert>
Message-ID: <000001c38b66$5e5045f0$0200a8c0@co3019798a>

I'm trying to get some design ideas together, and I don't have a synth
with me at the moment to do any listening experiments...

If you hard sync a pair of osc and you are sweeping the slave frequency
with an env for that classic 'sync sound', what range of frequency
ratios would you normally use?

For example sweeping from 4:1 down to 1:1

Regards,
Kevin



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Oct  5 19:31:31 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:31:31 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Hard Sync frequency ratios
References: <000001c38b66$5e5045f0$0200a8c0@co3019798a>
Message-ID: <3F805572.572E6CE7@prodigy.net>

Hmmm... I'd say "whatever"...

I hear the 'classic' sync sound as being like a very resonant
filter, and a really wide range of sweeps is appropriate...
from very small to very large. I'd make it variable and capable
of the larges sweep you can get. Its sort of like having a VCF that
would sweep only 'so far' open... you'd like to be able to go the
the limits of human hearing...

imho of course
H^) harry

Kevin Downs wrote:

> I'm trying to get some design ideas together, and I don't have a synth
> with me at the moment to do any listening experiments...
>
> If you hard sync a pair of osc and you are sweeping the slave frequency
> with an env for that classic 'sync sound', what range of frequency
> ratios would you normally use?
>
> For example sweeping from 4:1 down to 1:1
>
> Regards,
> Kevin


From cornutt at hiwaay.net  Sun Oct  5 21:38:00 2003
From: cornutt at hiwaay.net (David Cornutt)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:38:00 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] EML 101 mods?
In-Reply-To: <7b.19e5e26a.2caa2bca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6DD9B221-F76B-11D7-894C-0003938E2F50@hiwaay.net>

EML 101 owners: What mods have you made or considered to
your synth?  I'm about to undertake a set of mods with mine, and
I thought I'd ask around to see what other ideas there are out there
while I've got mine on the bench.  Here's what I'm thinking about
right now:

* An input jack to override the KB1 control voltage.  This should
be fairly easy; I'll tap in at the OSC 2 control mode switch.  I'll
replace the CM2 output jack with a switching jack that will
override the source when a patch cord is plugged in.  This will
provide me with a more usable CV input point for a MIDI-to-CV
interface.  (A note here: I still want to be able to use the keyboard
when I'm playing with patches, so I don't want any mod that
permanently disables the keyboard jack.)

For the mods below I'll appropriate one of the groups of
multiple jacks:

* An input jack to externally gate envelope 1.  My 101 already
has an external gate in for envelope 2; I'd like to have separate
gate ins for each envelope.  This gives more flexibility in connecting
the gate out of the MIDI-to-CV interface (as opposed to hacking
in to the keyboard jack).

* An input jack to override the oscillator 1 source input to the
sample-and-hold.  The fact that the S/H source is hardwired to
OSC 1, with no patch point is about the only thing I think they did
really wrong with the original design.

* A jack to access the output of exponential amp 3, which is
dedicated to the filter in the original design.  The main use for
this would be to have a V/Hz control voltage source for use with
oscillator 1, which lacks its own exp amp and so doesn't track
properly if you feed it a V/octave CV.  But I could see it being
put to other mischief...

* A input jack to override exp amp 3's connection to the filter.
This way, I could drive the filter with an external source while using
the filter mixer, and exp amp 3, for another purpose.

What other ideas are out there?  One that I've heard of is a mod
to the filter to eliminate the attentuation that occurs when you turn up
the resonance (and prevents the filter from self-oscillating).  Is the
EML filter suitable for this kind of thing?  (I have a feeling it isn't,
which is okay; it's a unique filter and I can get self-oscillating 
filters
elsewhere.)  I'd like to avoid doing anything that would be 
irreversible;
I'd like to be able to put it back in factory spec if I decide to sell 
it
someday.

P.S.: one reason I've got it open is that the keyboard S/H suffers
from S/H droop.  Is this likely to be just the capacitor, or am I
possibly looking at having to replace one of those FETs?


From grichter at asapnet.net  Sun Oct  5 22:28:42 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:28:42 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
In-Reply-To: <3F7F99B8.8070309@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BBA5E92A.3EA31%grichter@asapnet.net>

Congratulations, you have reinvented the Wiard Omni-Filter!

You will be wanting to add another set of switches to invert the feedback
phase for bandpass mode.

And no doubt adding allpass (phase shifter) mode when you realize it's just
half the LP switches on with the HP switches, which puts a variable
resistance in parallel with the cap... (don't ground the cap for this mode
of course).

Robert Rich complained because it didn't sound MORE like a CEM3320...


> Just what we need - another filter circuit. Anyway, I've always liked
> the CEM3320 filter chips, which has 4 transconductance stages which can
> yield any of the standard filter response (HP, LP, BP, and All Pass) in
> 4th order, depending on how you interconnect the stages.  I hit on the
> idea of using analog switches to do the interconnecting and build a
> switchable (not simultaneous) multimode filter. I previously built one
> with a CEM3320 that yielded BP and LP functions.  The  new circuit
> contains no CEMs but is built with LM13700 OTA's and MAX413 analog switches.
> The HP and LP functions work perfectly, just as I expected. The BP
> however doesn't seem to respond to the resonance settings as well as it
> should (and certainly not as well as the CEM3320 BP).
> Maybe some of you geniuses can take a look a make suggestions (make
> suggestions even if you don't consider yourself a genius!).
> I've got to break down and build me another case. I've got a box full of
> loose modules without a home.
> 
> http://home.comcast.net/~sbernardi/elec/og2/og3_4pmultimode.html
> 
> -- 
> Scott Bernardi
> sbernardi at comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> 


From grichter at asapnet.net  Sun Oct  5 22:39:35 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:39:35 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] EML 101 mods?
In-Reply-To: <6DD9B221-F76B-11D7-894C-0003938E2F50@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <BBA5EBB7.3EA38%grichter@asapnet.net>

> P.S.: one reason I've got it open is that the keyboard S/H suffers
> from S/H droop.  Is this likely to be just the capacitor, or am I
> possibly looking at having to replace one of those FETs?

Try cleaning the S/H circuit area with 91% isopropyl alcohol, and dry
thoroughly. Dust, smoke etc. with humidity on the PCB is enough to make
S/H's droop slowly.


From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Sun Oct  5 23:05:46 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:05:46 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] VCA mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <7b.19e5e26a.2caa2bca@aol.com>
References: <7b.19e5e26a.2caa2bca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0310052305460I.00671@Robert>

On Tuesday 30 September 2003 02:43, TheeStateMachine at aol.com wrote:
> richard at skydancer.com writes:
> > I think what the world really needs is some kind of high quality
> > 8:8 crosspoint/mixer chip. Any volunteers to finance and design
> > one? :-)
>
> Analog Devices has already done this for us.  not very hard to use,
> either... check the AD 8113 and 8114.

I've looked at these too and found them to be a tad expensive for what 
they do when used for audio. Things might be different if the signals 
to switch were FM or other suitably modulated signals, as in that case 
you could switch more than one signal through each channel.


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf Q, microQ and rackAttack:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfSounds



From sbernardi at comcast.net  Sun Oct  5 23:50:46 2003
From: sbernardi at comcast.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:50:46 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
In-Reply-To: <BBA5E92A.3EA31%grichter@asapnet.net>
References: <BBA5E92A.3EA31%grichter@asapnet.net>
Message-ID: <3F809236.4030302@comcast.net>

Hah! I should have figured it wasn't a new idea.   Looking at the 
features of theOMNI filter, yours is a lot fancier - like the voltage 
controlled "morph" feature.
I'll try inverting the BP feedback, thanks.

Grant Richter wrote:

>Congratulations, you have reinvented the Wiard Omni-Filter!
>
>You will be wanting to add another set of switches to invert the feedback
>phase for bandpass mode.
>
>And no doubt adding allpass (phase shifter) mode when you realize it's just
>half the LP switches on with the HP switches, which puts a variable
>resistance in parallel with the cap... (don't ground the cap for this mode
>of course).
>
>Robert Rich complained because it didn't sound MORE like a CEM3320...
>
>
>  
>
>>Just what we need - another filter circuit. Anyway, I've always liked
>>the CEM3320 filter chips, which has 4 transconductance stages which can
>>yield any of the standard filter response (HP, LP, BP, and All Pass) in
>>4th order, depending on how you interconnect the stages.  I hit on the
>>idea of using analog switches to do the interconnecting and build a
>>switchable (not simultaneous) multimode filter. I previously built one
>>with a CEM3320 that yielded BP and LP functions.  The  new circuit
>>contains no CEMs but is built with LM13700 OTA's and MAX413 analog switches.
>>The HP and LP functions work perfectly, just as I expected. The BP
>>however doesn't seem to respond to the resonance settings as well as it
>>should (and certainly not as well as the CEM3320 BP).
>>Maybe some of you geniuses can take a look a make suggestions (make
>>suggestions even if you don't consider yourself a genius!).
>>I've got to break down and build me another case. I've got a box full of
>>loose modules without a home.
>>
>>http://home.comcast.net/~sbernardi/elec/og2/og3_4pmultimode.html
>>
>>-- 
>>Scott Bernardi
>>sbernardi at comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at comcast.net

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From adaaxs at erols.com  Sun Oct  5 23:59:41 2003
From: adaaxs at erols.com (Gino Wong)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 17:59:41 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Drum synth 
In-Reply-To: <Law12-OE35ZfEAkqBiB00000db1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <388A105A-F77F-11D7-BE1A-000393C2DA5E@erols.com>

I have a Casio DZ1 midi drum interface and some DP1s which are not 
compatable but seem modifiable.  I have no doc on either but I would 
like to do an 8 pad wired touchplate for an analog rig and four more 
dp1 type pads for a proper drum kit.

Any help would be appreciated. My recent injuries have slowed me down.

gw


From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Mon Oct  6 01:00:10 2003
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:00:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
In-Reply-To: <3F7F99B8.8070309@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310051843280.32152-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


  I am reminded of the Oberheim Xpander/Matrix12 filter, which used the
cells of a CEM3372 along with a string of transfer function coefficients
as long as a train (translation: a couple inverting opamps and a pile of
precision resistors along with analog switches) to provide 15 selectable
filter models.

  Hm, I have the xpvoice schematic and the blurb about deriving the 
S-transform archived on oldcrows.net as an unlisted link:

  http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/synth/xp/

  To answer your question about resonance for BP, I think you need
negative feedback of the resonance, such as into the inverting input of
the first opamp.  This also implies a reverse action of the res.  control
(CW becomes CCW).

Crow
/**/


On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Scott Bernardi wrote:

> Just what we need - another filter circuit. Anyway, I've always liked 
> the CEM3320 filter chips, which has 4 transconductance stages which can 
> yield any of the standard filter response (HP, LP, BP, and All Pass) in 
> 4th order, depending on how you interconnect the stages.  I hit on the 
> idea of using analog switches to do the interconnecting and build a 
> switchable (not simultaneous) multimode filter. I previously built one 
> with a CEM3320 that yielded BP and LP functions.  The  new circuit 
> contains no CEMs but is built with LM13700 OTA's and MAX413 analog switches.
> The HP and LP functions work perfectly, just as I expected. The BP 
> however doesn't seem to respond to the resonance settings as well as it 
> should (and certainly not as well as the CEM3320 BP).
> Maybe some of you geniuses can take a look a make suggestions (make 
> suggestions even if you don't consider yourself a genius!).
> I've got to break down and build me another case. I've got a box full of 
> loose modules without a home.
> 
> http://home.comcast.net/~sbernardi/elec/og2/og3_4pmultimode.html
> 
> 


From elmacaco at nyc.rr.com  Mon Oct  6 03:37:43 2003
From: elmacaco at nyc.rr.com (elmacaco)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:37:43 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Spring reverb Drive circuit
Message-ID: <007401c38baa$6ff16ca0$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>

Hey all,

I just pulled a spring reverb out of an old mixer I got cheap off of ebay.
It's an Accutronics  16" dual spring (it's going into my EFM SBM modular :)

It's an 4BB2D1B,

I have the schematic from the accutronics website but it runs off of +/- 15,
my PSU is +/-12V

Can someone have a look at this and see if I can run it off of 12V, or if I
should change something?  Thanks
Schematic:

http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/drive1.pdf

Ed


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com  Mon Oct  6 09:57:36 2003
From: P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com (Paul Maddox)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:57:36 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310051843280.32152-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <017901c38bdf$827f1400$a45e23c0@dilwyn>

Scott,

>   I am reminded of the Oberheim Xpander/Matrix12 filter, which used the
> cells of a CEM3372 along with a string of transfer function coefficients
> as long as a train (translation: a couple inverting opamps and a pile of
> precision resistors along with analog switches) to provide 15 selectable
> filter models.

ermmm, I thought the Xpander used SSM2040 as the filter chip?
And to get the various stages, as you said, it mixs the outputs of each
'pole' using precision resistors into a 4067 to give the possible filter
options..

Paul


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Mon Oct  6 10:53:05 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 10:53:05 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Environmental,  Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EE7@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

I can not remember where I got this information from.
Certainly there are scientific level measrurements
with data logger, I know that such a station exists
at the little river near to my appartment.

On Saturday I saw another crazy idea:

"The abandoned road". Basically a camera movent allong a 
northern coast road which went on for a year, i.e. stop-motion technique
during the year. While the camera moves forward you see the gras grow,
snow melt etc. etc.

I think there should be internet sites which display the actual tides
for nautic purposes?


OTOH: I think there is a problem with such "random" data, chaotic
processes etc.
At first, they seem to be very interesting. The theory and work behind
etc. But if you listen to the acoustic outcome, many such processes
are not interesting enough, i.e. somewhat disapointing.
I'm speaking here about generating audible waves from such data.
Perhaps the use as input for compositional structures gives 
more interesting results.

Never forget: if you write that the data for your composition was gathered
by night, staring in the sky, or by recording the sea level for one year
this is quite impressive.

If you say, oh, I just took some random numbers or this or that algorithm
on my computer it seems much less impressive today.

The story behind a composition is sometimes more important than the whole
composition. A very disgusting "feature" of the academic domain.

For some technical purposes, real world random figures, like noise diodes
are really important, because pseudo random won't do the trick.
But this usally appears only when correlation and other deeper investigations
/ transformations come into play. Just for listening it is hard to
identify a large cycle pseudo random source from something really random.

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of 
> Metzger, Michael
> A
> Sent: Donnerstag, 2. Oktober 2003 19:46
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> 
> 
> Martin,
> The recording of a lake sounds fascinating - well, the concept is
> fascinating, not sure how lively the recording would be. Is 
> there anything
> online about that project? 
> Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Czech Martin [mailto:Martin.Czech at micronas.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 6:34 AM
> To: john mahoney; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Cc: harrybissell; John L Marshall; Cynthia Webster
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and "Subscription Modules"
> 
> 
> Another idea: why not use a LDR for sunlight detection.
> Control voltages will depend on night/day, bright sky and rain.
> 
> I have heard about people recording the level of a lake for a 
> year or so...
> 
> m.c.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of john mahoney
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 2. Oktober 2003 05:32
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Cc: harrybissell; John L Marshall; Cynthia Webster
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and 
> "Subscription Modules"
> > 
> > 
> > Hey, somebody has to defend Cyn, here!
> > 
> > The idea has artistic merit, except for the subscription 
> > thing, bah humbug!
> > ;-) Public news tickers aren't new, there's a national debt 
> > counter (in
> > Times Square?), a Nuclear Countdown Clock... But, art is "off 
> > topic," so on
> > with the DIY (... he said, narrowly avoiding an artistic debate).
> > 
> > You can use a PC to grab the data off the Internet and send out the
> > corresponding MIDI data. A MIDI/CV converter completes the job.
> > 
> > The trick is reading HTTP and writing MIDI, but it's 
> > *theoretically* easy.
> > Internet and MIDI functions are built into Microsoft's 
> > Software Development
> > Kits, for one. If I had the tools, I'd try it.
> > 
> > Now, you wanted that PC in a Modcan-compatible module, right...?
> > --
> > john
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> > To: "John L Marshall" <john.l.marshall at gte.net>
> > Cc: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>;
> > <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 PM
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and 
> "Subscription Modules"
> > 
> > 
> > > Yeah definately !!!
> > >
> > > "I'll have what the lady on the FLOOR is having...."
> > >
> > > H^) harry
> > >
> > > John L Marshall wrote:
> > >
> > > > Cynthia,
> > > >
> > > > Too many triple lattes.
> > > >
> > > > Take care,
> > > > John
> > > > 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > www.sound-photo.com
> > > > 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
> > > > To: <cgs_synth at yahoogroups.com>; "DIY" 
> > <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:54 PM
> > > > Subject: [sdiy] Environmental, Concept, and 
> "Subscription Modules"
> > > >
> > > > > (from a thread on the CGS list)
> > > > >
> > > > > Environmental,  Concept and "Subscription Modules"
> > > > >
> > [big snip]
> > 
> > 
> 


From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Oct  6 10:59:18 2003
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Oakley Sound)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:59:18 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310051843280.32152-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net> <017901c38bdf$827f1400$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
Message-ID: <024f01c38be8$23a698a0$6570fea9@oemcomputer>

> ermmm, I thought the Xpander used SSM2040 as the filter chip?

It was a 3372. Only the early Pro V used the SSM stuff in the audio
pathways.

Regards,

Tony Allgood                       Penrith, Cumbria, England

Oakley Sound Systems                   www.oakleysound.co.uk
Modular Synthesisers      www.oakleysound.co.uk/projects.htm


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Mon Oct  6 11:41:53 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:41:53 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4D2@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

I'm interested to hear about electrnoic music pioneers in
the US of A and Japan. Does somebody know about very early work in 1950?
Local historiography of course assumes the local heros to be the first.

Interesting to hear of Gordon Mumma. I have to see when he published/created
his first electronic piece...


Martin Czech

CAD/CAE Library Group
Micronas GmbH
Hans-Bunte-Str 19
D 79108 Freiburg
Tel.: +49-761-517-2422
FAX.: +49-761-517-2258
http://www.micronas.com
 


From pev at sketchymonkey.com  Mon Oct  6 12:36:25 2003
From: pev at sketchymonkey.com (Dave Peverley)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:36:25 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] MIDI Triggering...
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4D2@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <022c01c38bf5$b290fa80$f05c96c0@HOGSHEADW2K>

Hi all,

  This is slightly OT, but not much :-) A friend of mine who's a puppeteer is
looking to incorporate some automatic midi triggering into his sets &
puppets. What he wants is a small simple control board with a load of
connections for switches that will generate a fixed MIDI event (e.g. note
on/off) for the switch closing and opening. Has anyone come across anything
like that before? I'm sure there must be quite a few designs out there. Oh,
and it would be ideal if a discrete circuit not involving PIC's existed as he
hasn't got a programmer IIRC....

Cheers,

~Pev


From fredrik.axtelius at telia.com  Mon Oct  6 13:39:57 2003
From: fredrik.axtelius at telia.com (Fredrik Axtelius)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:39:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] MIDI Triggering...
Message-ID: <200310061139.h96BdvS11265@d1o829.telia.com>

Check out Doepfers MTC board.
http://www.doepfer.de/mtc.htm

BUT I would recomend getting a picprogrammer and using a 16f628, a 
discrete circuit would of course work but why build one of thoose??
It would be cheaper to buy a picprogrammer and build a pic based 
thingie instead.

Check out Marc's site, he's got some great examples on how to use a 
cheap pic in midi applications.
http://m.bareille.free.fr/midi.htm

/frax

citerar Dave Peverley <pev at sketchymonkey.com>:

> Hi all,
>
>   This is slightly OT, but not much :-) A friend of mine who's a 
puppeteer
> is
> looking to incorporate some automatic midi triggering into his sets &
> puppets. What he wants is a small simple control board with a load of
> connections for switches that will generate a fixed MIDI event (e.g. 
note
> on/off) for the switch closing and opening. Has anyone come across 
anything
> like that before? I'm sure there must be quite a few designs out 
there. Oh,
> and it would be ideal if a discrete circuit not involving PIC's 
existed as
> he
> hasn't got a programmer IIRC....
>
> Cheers,
>
> ~Pev
>
> 


From rwilson at fhmsi.com  Mon Oct  6 14:33:35 2003
From: rwilson at fhmsi.com (Raymond Wilson)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 06:33:35 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Spring reverb Drive circuit
Message-ID: <4811379101964143B625EF80D6C961010F114D@VS-PEX2.FHMS.NET>

Looks pretty straightforward. My two cents... it should work fine on + and - 12V.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: elmacaco [mailto:elmacaco at nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 7:38 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] Spring reverb Drive circuit


Hey all,

I just pulled a spring reverb out of an old mixer I got cheap off of ebay.
It's an Accutronics  16" dual spring (it's going into my EFM SBM modular :)

It's an 4BB2D1B,

I have the schematic from the accutronics website but it runs off of +/- 15,
my PSU is +/-12V

Can someone have a look at this and see if I can run it off of 12V, or if I
should change something?  Thanks
Schematic:

http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/drive1.pdf

Ed


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Oct  6 16:49:16 2003
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:49:16 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] Last Missing Wasp Schematic JPEG is up!
In-Reply-To: <200310061139.h96BdvS11265@d1o829.telia.com>
Message-ID: <20031006144916.45668.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi, All- I've now uploaded the missing section of the Wasp Schematic- it's here, scroll to the bottom of the page:

http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com/Wasp.html

Best regards to ya all!



http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com
Home of the M3X Analogue synthesizer...

---------------------------------
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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Oct  6 17:26:00 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:26:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Spring reverb Drive circuit
In-Reply-To: <4811379101964143B625EF80D6C961010F114D@VS-PEX2.FHMS.NET>
Message-ID: <20031006152600.29278.qmail@web80205.mail.yahoo.com>

Ditto:  now we're up to 4 cents

I have (in fact) used exactly this circuit
(last month) in an integrator drive circuit...
on +/- 12VDC.

The maximum output voltage may be more limited than
the opamp alone... I got about +/- 8V on the 12V
supply (different opamp)

H^) harry



--- Raymond Wilson <rwilson at fhmsi.com> wrote:
> Looks pretty straightforward. My two cents... it
> should work fine on + and - 12V.
> 
> Ray
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elmacaco [mailto:elmacaco at nyc.rr.com]
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 7:38 PM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] Spring reverb Drive circuit
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I just pulled a spring reverb out of an old mixer I
> got cheap off of ebay.
> It's an Accutronics  16" dual spring (it's going
> into my EFM SBM modular :)
> 
> It's an 4BB2D1B,
> 
> I have the schematic from the accutronics website
> but it runs off of +/- 15,
> my PSU is +/-12V
> 
> Can someone have a look at this and see if I can run
> it off of 12V, or if I
> should change something?  Thanks
> Schematic:
> 
> http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/drive1.pdf
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release
> Date: 9/11/03
> 
> 


From bert.schiettecatte at esat.kuleuven.ac.be  Mon Oct  6 17:39:23 2003
From: bert.schiettecatte at esat.kuleuven.ac.be (Bert Schiettecatte)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:39:23 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANKEIKCDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <009d01c38c20$06869030$6501a8c0@laptop>

Hi,

I started an XML based format about 3 years ago for describing modular
synth patches... search for 'FlowML'. I haven't continued the effort
because nobody responded or nobody wanted to get involved. Maybe I
should continue this project with the input of all you guys...

Bert

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Ray Wilson
Sent: zondag 5 oktober 2003 4:01
To: Andre Majorel; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)

Hi All

Just my two cents.

As a programmer I had to reply on this one. One of XML's basic
properties is
that   it is readable by a human. With proper use of elements and
attributes
it can be made very readable just by itself. Using XSL to transform it
is
also a major plus. With a proper xsl transform the XML can be put into a
form that is as readable as you could possibly want.

I'd vote for XML as the standard.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Andre Majorel
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 1:57 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Modular Patch Notation (MPN)


On 2003-10-04 14:33 +0200, Michael Buchstaller wrote:

> >Would you prefer to read and write this :
> >or this ?
>
> Whether this is C-Style or HTML-Style does not matter.

s/C/TCL/
s/HTML/XML/

> A trained person (read: programmer) is able to read both
> fluently, and a mere mortal will think both notations suck.

Oversimplification. I'd wager that a mere mortal will have less
trouble with a TCL-like syntax than with XML. And a programmer
will be able to read text with less effort. It's not just
whether or not you can do it, it's also how much it costs to do
it.

If it's important to be able to read modular patches into
spreadsheets, that could also be achieved by writing a program
to convert back and forth between the notation language and XML.

XML has the advantage of being easier to parse by machines. It
also has the disadvantage of being harder to read or write by
humans. For a given application, you need to determine which
problem matters most and make your decision accordingly.

--
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/

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From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Mon Oct  6 18:24:09 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:24:09 -0700 
Subject: [sdiy] Spring Reverb silliness
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D757@SBIEXCHANGE>

The thread about the spring reverb drive circuit got me thinking. How about
putting a small speaker and microphone in the reverb tank and feeding the
signal back to the reverb input (perhaps with a slight delay) to get
feedback and/or sustain? Maybe you don't even need the microphone for
feedback, since the signal from the speaker will influence the springs. I'm
sure I've heard of doing this before, but I've never seen an actual
application. Perhaps the feedback signal could be filtered and converted to
a DC control voltage that would keep the VCF and VCA open (or control some
other tone quality or a wave folder/mangler). A non acoustic feedback
circuit could easily be set up from the reverb output back to the input, but
I can help thinking that the qualities imparted by a speaker in the tank
would be more interesting. Whaddaya think? Any Van Halen wannabees out
there?


Tim Servo

"That last sentence drove the spell checker nuts!" - Albert Einstein







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From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Mon Oct  6 19:17:17 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] MuTron Biphase Module
Message-ID: <20031006101717.27608.h040.c002.wm@mail.peoplepc.com.criticalpath.net>

On Sat 10/04/2003 Scott Stites wrote:

>This is the core of what I eventually would like to have as a finished, very
>cool phase shifter.  One thing I think would make a great module would be to
>use 6 VTL5C3/2 Dual Vactrols and configure it a la the Mutron BiPhase - IE
>12 stages altogether that could be either run in parallel in 6 stages each
>or 12 stages in series.

It's been done (and quite well)!

http://m.bareille.free.fr/biphase/biphase.htm

IIRC, it was posted to this list before I left for a month with the resulting
brain erasure.  Musta been where I got my 'idea'.

Cheers,
Scott

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 


From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Mon Oct  6 19:46:58 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:46:58 -0700
Subject: (Modcan 35A Has This) Re: [sdiy] Spring Reverb silliness
In-Reply-To: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D757@SBIEXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <BBA6F8A2.10831%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

on 10/6/03 9:24 AM, Tim Parkhurst at tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com wrote:

Hi Tim!

The Modcan 35A Spring Reverb Has This Feedback Feature,
(as well as VC Wet/Dry Mix) built-in.

It really is great!  Kind of like having a poor man's digital delay...

Cynthia


> The thread about the spring reverb drive circuit got me thinking. How about
> putting a small speaker and microphone in the reverb tank and feeding the
> signal back to the reverb input (perhaps with a slight delay) to get
> feedback and/or sustain? Maybe you don't even need the microphone for
> feedback, since the signal from the speaker will influence the springs. I'm
> sure I've heard of doing this before, but I've never seen an actual
> application. Perhaps the feedback signal could be filtered and converted to
> a DC control voltage that would keep the VCF and VCA open (or control some
> other tone quality or a wave folder/mangler). A non acoustic feedback
> circuit could easily be set up from the reverb output back to the input, but
> I can help thinking that the qualities imparted by a speaker in the tank
> would be more interesting. Whaddaya think? Any Van Halen wannabees out
> there?
> 
> 
> Tim Servo



From tania.gallagher at pandora.be  Mon Oct  6 20:31:08 2003
From: tania.gallagher at pandora.be (tania gallagher)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:31:08 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] moog prodigy mods
Message-ID: <BBA7818C.DD5%tania.gallagher@pandora.be>

i?ve just bought a moog prodigy for a very good price (300Euro). im looking
into modding the hell out of it basically. im definately adding an input
jack to access the filter, any ideas what kind of other mods i could do that
could be fun.......or maybe someone here has already modded a prodigy,in
that case i?d like to hear about it.......

bart demey




From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Mon Oct  6 22:18:30 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:18:30 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
In-Reply-To: <017901c38bdf$827f1400$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310051843280.32152-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net> <017901c38bdf$827f1400$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
Message-ID: <03100621315501.00671@Robert>

On Monday 06 October 2003 09:57, Paul Maddox wrote:
> ermmm, I thought the Xpander used SSM2040 as the filter chip?

Both the XPander schematics and a peek inside my Matrix-12 tell me it's 
a CEM3372... The microWave started with the CEM3389 (marketed as 
pin-for-pin compatible with the CEM3379), later models used the CEM3387 
(like the WAVE, the 4-Pole filter, the Prophet 3000 and the Emulator 
III). The Prophet 2000 had the CEM3379, the Matrix1000 and Matrix-6 
have the CEM3396 (the latter in wide-body packaging), Chroma Polaris 
CEM3372/CEM3374(?).

Prophet 5 rev.1 had SSM based filters IIRC, while the later revs 
switched to CEM (CEM3378? should check on winecountrysequential)

All AFAIK, please correct if you spot any errors.


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

Q series MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfQDocs



From yahudinyhwh at sbcglobal.net  Mon Oct  6 22:21:15 2003
From: yahudinyhwh at sbcglobal.net (Scott E.)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:21:15 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Last Missing Wasp Schematic JPEG is up!
In-Reply-To: <20031006144916.45668.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20031006144916.45668.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3F81CEBB.4010608@sbcglobal.net>

Shouldn't there be an "F" schem to fill out the bottom right corner?

Thanks, Scott

Ken MacBeth wrote:

>     Hi, All- I've now uploaded the missing section of the Wasp
>     Schematic- it's here, scroll to the bottom of the page:
> 
>     http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com/Wasp.html
> 
>     Best regards to ya all!
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com
> Home of the M3X Analogue synthesizer...
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? *Get the FREE Yahoo! 
> Messenger* 
> <http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_messenger/*http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/> 
> 


From ensign7 at e-scape.net  Tue Oct  7 00:42:14 2003
From: ensign7 at e-scape.net (Keith Daniel)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:42:14 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music
In-Reply-To:  <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4D2@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]>

>I'm interested to hear about electrnoic music pioneers...

>Local historiography of course assumes the local heros to be the first.

At the end of WWII, the National Research Council of Canada sent some off to research aerodynamics, jet engines, analog computers...

One of the analog computer geniuses, Hugh Lecaine, was given grants to design and build electronic music instruments. Perhaps Canada was tired of war, and had this weird idea that art and culture were more imprortant. Or maybe he just didn't fit into the new cold war ideals.

Dr. Lecaine had his own ideas to work on, like tube oscillator banks to do formant synthesis. Or his precursor to the Mellotron.

It has been suggested that Dr. LeCaine was the first to use voltage control for music.

I used to work with his machines, and the neatest was the Poly. Individual oscillators for each key, and a 'tear drop' optical amplitude dynamic arrangement. Built in 1962.

His machines are now in storage at the Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa.

I started electronic music in 1973, the year Dr. LeCaine passed away. Never got to meet him.

But he's the Great Canadian Pioneer of Electronic Music.



Keith Daniel





From r.lekx at chello.nl  Tue Oct  7 01:29:18 2003
From: r.lekx at chello.nl (Rude 66)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:29:18 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music
References: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]>
Message-ID: <003301c38c61$aa002b40$a5498418@rr23kdenugxqxk>

> His machines are now in storage at the Museum of Science and Technology in
Ottawa.
>

i just came back from munich, and much to my surprise in a far away corner
of the Deutsches Museum i found the complete Siemens electronic music
studio. here's a link: http://www.obsolete.com/120_years/machines/siemens/

it's all there, from the mixers and vocoder to the tape recorders and
oscillators. there is also a nice display of other instruments, from early
machines from the studio in Rome to an oberheim dmx and simmons sds5 system.
worth a visit..

ruud




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Oct  7 02:38:10 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:38:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
In-Reply-To: <03100621315501.00671@Robert>
Message-ID: <20031007003810.40984.qmail@web80205.mail.yahoo.com>

Later Prophets (rev 3) used the 
CEM3320 - also used in the ProOne

H^P harry


--- ASSI <Stromeko at Compuserve.DE> wrote:
> On Monday 06 October 2003 09:57, Paul Maddox wrote:
> > ermmm, I thought the Xpander used SSM2040 as the
> filter chip?
> 
> Both the XPander schematics and a peek inside my
> Matrix-12 tell me it's 
> a CEM3372... The microWave started with the CEM3389
> (marketed as 
> pin-for-pin compatible with the CEM3379), later
> models used the CEM3387 
> (like the WAVE, the 4-Pole filter, the Prophet 3000
> and the Emulator 
> III). The Prophet 2000 had the CEM3379, the
> Matrix1000 and Matrix-6 
> have the CEM3396 (the latter in wide-body
> packaging), Chroma Polaris 
> CEM3372/CEM3374(?).
> 
> Prophet 5 rev.1 had SSM based filters IIRC, while
> the later revs 
> switched to CEM (CEM3378? should check on
> winecountrysequential)
> 
> All AFAIK, please correct if you spot any errors.
> 
> 
> Achim.
> 
> --
>
+<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+
> --
> 
> Q series MIDI Implementation & additional
> documentation:
> http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfQDocs
> 
> 


From elmacaco at nyc.rr.com  Tue Oct  7 03:40:58 2003
From: elmacaco at nyc.rr.com (elmacaco)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:40:58 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Spring reverb Drive circuit
References: <20031006152600.29278.qmail@web80205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008801c38c74$0eefd700$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I'm now using this schem for the input driver from the same website:

http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/drive3.pdf

for the resistor to ground on the negative pin of the op amp, it says

Nominal V
-----------------  =  R
.028

So wtf is nominal V?  12V?

that gives me 428.6 approx.  I assume Ohm, am I doing this right?

I'm still going to use the output from the first schem.

Ed
Thanks!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Bissell Jr" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
To: "Raymond Wilson" <rwilson at fhmsi.com>; "elmacaco" <elmacaco at nyc.rr.com>;
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 11:26 AM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Spring reverb Drive circuit


> Ditto:  now we're up to 4 cents
>
> I have (in fact) used exactly this circuit
> (last month) in an integrator drive circuit...
> on +/- 12VDC.
>
> The maximum output voltage may be more limited than
> the opamp alone... I got about +/- 8V on the 12V
> supply (different opamp)
>
> H^) harry
>
>
>
> --- Raymond Wilson <rwilson at fhmsi.com> wrote:
> > Looks pretty straightforward. My two cents... it
> > should work fine on + and - 12V.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: elmacaco [mailto:elmacaco at nyc.rr.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 7:38 PM
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: [sdiy] Spring reverb Drive circuit
> >
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I just pulled a spring reverb out of an old mixer I
> > got cheap off of ebay.
> > It's an Accutronics  16" dual spring (it's going
> > into my EFM SBM modular :)
> >
> > It's an 4BB2D1B,
> >
> > I have the schematic from the accutronics website
> > but it runs off of +/- 15,
> > my PSU is +/-12V
> >
> > Can someone have a look at this and see if I can run
> > it off of 12V, or if I
> > should change something?  Thanks
> > Schematic:
> >
> > http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/drive1.pdf
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> > (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release
> > Date: 9/11/03
> >
> >
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 9/11/03


From ka4hjh at gte.net  Tue Oct  7 04:33:58 2003
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:33:58 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] DIY harpsichord
Message-ID: <p05111a05bba7d58e7879@[67.200.137.104]>

Built entirely from LEGO parts:

http://www.henrylim.org/Harpsichord.html
-- 

Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"


From jmahoney at gate.net  Tue Oct  7 04:49:21 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:49:21 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] DIY harpsichord
References: <p05111a05bba7d58e7879@[67.200.137.104]>
Message-ID: <00fa01c38c7d$9caed510$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>


    !!!

--
john


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "KA4HJH" <ka4hjh at gte.net>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 10:33 PM
Subject: [sdiy] DIY harpsichord


> Built entirely from LEGO parts:
> 
> http://www.henrylim.org/Harpsichord.html
> -- 
> 
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"


From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Tue Oct  7 05:56:44 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:56:44 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music
In-Reply-To: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]>
References: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]>
Message-ID: <3F82397C.30209@ix.netcom.com>

There is a good book about Hugh Le Caine and his work:

The Sackbut Blues - Hugh Le Caine Pioneer in Electronic Music
by Gayle Young
1989, National Museum of Science and Technology
ISBN 0-660-12006-2


Keith Daniel wrote:

>>I'm interested to hear about electrnoic music pioneers...
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>Local historiography of course assumes the local heros to be the first.
>>    
>>
>
>At the end of WWII, the National Research Council of Canada sent some off to research aerodynamics, jet engines, analog computers...
>
>One of the analog computer geniuses, Hugh Lecaine, was given grants to design and build electronic music instruments. Perhaps Canada was tired of war, and had this weird idea that art and culture were more imprortant. Or maybe he just didn't fit into the new cold war ideals.
>
>Dr. Lecaine had his own ideas to work on, like tube oscillator banks to do formant synthesis. Or his precursor to the Mellotron.
>
>It has been suggested that Dr. LeCaine was the first to use voltage control for music.
>
>I used to work with his machines, and the neatest was the Poly. Individual oscillators for each key, and a 'tear drop' optical amplitude dynamic arrangement. Built in 1962.
>
>His machines are now in storage at the Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa.
>
>I started electronic music in 1973, the year Dr. LeCaine passed away. Never got to meet him.
>
>But he's the Great Canadian Pioneer of Electronic Music.
>
>
>
>Keith Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Oren Leavitt
oleavitt at ix.netcom.com




From batzmanx at all-electric.com  Tue Oct  7 05:58:05 2003
From: batzmanx at all-electric.com (Batz Goodfortune)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:28:05 +0930
Subject: [sdiy] DIY harpsichord
In-Reply-To: <p05111a05bba7d58e7879@[67.200.137.104]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031007132301.00a52490@mail.all-electric.com>

Y-ellow Terry 'n' all.

At 10:33 PM 10/6/03 -0400, KA4HJH wrote:
>Built entirely from LEGO parts:
>
>http://www.henrylim.org/Harpsichord.html
>--

Hey Eric. I've got an idea. What about building a lego house entirely out 
of vacuum tubes?

Be absolutely Icebox.

  _ __        _       ____ International Nihilist ____
| "_ \      | |
| |_)/  __ _| |_ ____       ALL ELECTRIC KITCHEN
|  _ \ / _` | __|___ |  Yeti music by Yetis for Yetis
| |_) | (_| | |_  / /
|_,__/ \__,_|\__|/ /    Disgusting-> http://all-electric.com
                 / ,__   Music -----> http://mp3.com/electrickitchen
Goodfortune    |_____|  Cult  -----> http://www.subgenius.com


From ka4hjh at gte.net  Tue Oct  7 07:48:38 2003
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:48:38 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
In-Reply-To: <3F809236.4030302@comcast.net>
References: <BBA5E92A.3EA31%grichter@asapnet.net>
 <3F809236.4030302@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <p05111a0cbba802dd1dae@[67.200.137.104]>

>Hah! I should have figured it wasn't a new idea.   Looking at the features
>of theOMNI filter, yours is a lot fancier - like the voltage controlled
>"morph" feature.
>I'll try inverting the BP feedback, thanks.

I have Craig Anderton's Multiple Identity Filter articles here:

http://www.crowncity.net/ratcave/Electro/MIF/mif.html

Lots of interesting info on the various modes. No fancy electronic
switching, though. Sorry.
-- 

Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"
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From DWa2898572 at aol.com  Tue Oct  7 08:01:33 2003
From: DWa2898572 at aol.com (DWa2898572 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 02:01:33 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] CCEMC
Message-ID: <1d3.12163b08.2cb3b0bd@aol.com>

Does anyone one know anything about this group? They released an LP in 1977, 
I believe it was on the Sackville Records label. They were a Canadian 
Electronic Improvising group, who used EMS Synthesizers exclusively!

                                                                       Dr. 
Synth 
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From mverbos at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  7 08:24:19 2003
From: mverbos at earthlink.net (mark verbos)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:24:19 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] DIY harpsichord
References: <p05111a05bba7d58e7879@[67.200.137.104]>
Message-ID: <3F825C13.8090903@earthlink.net>

that's cool. sound like shit though. The clicking really blows the whole 
project.



KA4HJH wrote:

>Built entirely from LEGO parts:
>
>http://www.henrylim.org/Harpsichord.html
>  
>



From houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp  Tue Oct  7 11:05:04 2003
From: houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp (houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 18:05:04 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Dr. LeCaine (Re: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music)
References: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]>
Message-ID: <200310070905.SAA01912@bgsv8168.tk.mesh.ad.jp>

Hello List,

I took some photos of the museum when I lived in Ottawa.

  http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~houshu/museum/

Enjoy,

Sam Hoshuyama
Kawasaki, JAPAN

Keith Daniel wrote:
> >I'm interested to hear about electrnoic music pioneers...
> 
> >Local historiography of course assumes the local heros to be the first.
> 
> At the end of WWII, the National Research Council of Canada sent some off to research aerodynamics, jet engines, analog computers...
> 
> One of the analog computer geniuses, Hugh Lecaine, was given grants to design and build electronic music instruments. Perhaps Canada was tired of war, and had this weird idea that art and culture were more imprortant. Or maybe he just didn't fit into the new cold war ideals.
> 
> Dr. Lecaine had his own ideas to work on, like tube oscillator banks to do formant synthesis. Or his precursor to the Mellotron.
> 
> It has been suggested that Dr. LeCaine was the first to use voltage control for music.
> 
> I used to work with his machines, and the neatest was the Poly. Individual oscillators for each key, and a 'tear drop' optical amplitude dynamic arrangement. Built in 1962.
> 
> His machines are now in storage at the Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa.
> 
> I started electronic music in 1973, the year Dr. LeCaine passed away. Never got to meet him.
> 
> But he's the Great Canadian Pioneer of Electronic Music.
> 
> 
> 
> Keith Daniel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com  Tue Oct  7 11:44:30 2003
From: P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com (Paul Maddox)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:44:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310051843280.32152-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net> <017901c38bdf$827f1400$a45e23c0@dilwyn> <03100621315501.00671@Robert>
Message-ID: <012f01c38cb7$9b4574b0$a45e23c0@dilwyn>

Achim/All,

> Both the XPander schematics and a peek inside my Matrix-12 tell me it's 
> a CEM3372... 

I was having a bad day :-)

Paul


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Tue Oct  7 12:08:17 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:08:17 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] the sound of ancient E.M.
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EED@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

I listened to Stockhausens Sudie I from 1955 or so.
It is said that this composition was created by sine
waves. If .mp3 has not destroyed the waveshapes
then I can say that the sines are heavily distorted.
I guess this comes from tape machines that were used
in those days.

The waves look like shark fins, I can not describe it better.


What could be the reason for this: magnetic recording head saturation,
tape saturation, problems with biasing?


I think that it is possible that Stockhausen used some nonlinear artefact
to make these sounds more interesting. Even compositions from 1960 or so
have this specific sound, at a time were tape technology was readily developed.
So no technical reason?

m.c.



From trypannon at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  7 12:47:15 2003
From: trypannon at hotmail.com (Steve Begin)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:47:15 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music
References: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]>
Message-ID: <Law12-OE19MkKKhD5Bo00004018@hotmail.com>

There's a compilation called "The Early Gurus of Electronic Music" that has
tracks from as early as the 30's, very interesting although it doesn't give
you much background info.

if you want, i can send you a tracklist.
-steve


----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Daniel" <ensign7 at e-scape.net>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>; "Czech Martin"
<Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 6:42 PM
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music


> >I'm interested to hear about electrnoic music pioneers...
>
> >Local historiography of course assumes the local heros to be the first.
>
> At the end of WWII, the National Research Council of Canada sent some off
to research aerodynamics, jet engines, analog computers...
>
> One of the analog computer geniuses, Hugh Lecaine, was given grants to
design and build electronic music instruments. Perhaps Canada was tired of
war, and had this weird idea that art and culture were more imprortant. Or
maybe he just didn't fit into the new cold war ideals.
>
> Dr. Lecaine had his own ideas to work on, like tube oscillator banks to do
formant synthesis. Or his precursor to the Mellotron.
>
> It has been suggested that Dr. LeCaine was the first to use voltage
control for music.
>
> I used to work with his machines, and the neatest was the Poly. Individual
oscillators for each key, and a 'tear drop' optical amplitude dynamic
arrangement. Built in 1962.
>
> His machines are now in storage at the Museum of Science and Technology in
Ottawa.
>
> I started electronic music in 1973, the year Dr. LeCaine passed away.
Never got to meet him.
>
> But he's the Great Canadian Pioneer of Electronic Music.
>
>
>
> Keith Daniel
>
>
>
>
>


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Tue Oct  7 13:21:48 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:21:48 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: Le Caine CD
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EEE@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Is there anybody in Canada who could send (sell) me this JWD03 CD?
It seems to cost $13.
I guess it will be ridicolous expensive to order this in
Germany....

will pay all charges . cash.


http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-journals/Computer-Music-Journal/Documents/reviews/25-2/lanza-lecaine.html

has the following information:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  Vol. 25 Issue 2 Reviews
                                                                           Reviews > Recordings > Le Caine 

  Hugh Le Caine: Compositions-Demonstrations 1946-1974
  Compact disc JWD 03, 2000; available from JWD Music, 146 Ridge Road West, Grimsby, Ontario L3M 4E7, Canada; electronic mail ridge at vaxxine.com; World Wide Web
  www.hughlecaine.com

  Reviewed by alcides lanza
  Montreal, Quebec, Canada 

  This compact disc is a must for electroacoustic teachers, researchers, and lovers of music with a technological edge. Canadian inventor, scientist, and
  composer Hugh Le Caine (1914-1977) was a pioneer in the development of machinery used for electroacoustic music. He was also responsible for the
  design and installation of electronic music studios at the University of Toronto (1959) and McGill University in Montreal (1964). His earliest creation, the
  Sackbut Synthesizer, dates from 1945. 

  The musical examples included on this CD are very impressive. The musicality, versatility and playability of Mr. Le Caine's early instruments is quite evident.
  Regrettably, no model of the Sackbut has survived. Also included is his last composition, Paulution (1971-72), produced using the polyphonic
  voltage-controlled synthesizer he developed for McGill University in 1970, a machine that was ahead of its time. The prototype and only copy of the
  "pauli" (or "Poly," as it was affectionately referred to around the McGill EMS), was donated in 1987-together with other Le Caine machines-to the
  Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa.

  The music on the disc is grouped into two sections: Compositions (1955-1972), and Demonstrations (1946-1957). The compositions are short, but are
  quite clearly more than mere demonstrations. They are witty, imaginative, and based on solid musical ideas. Dripsody, Mr. Le Caine's best-known
  composition, appears in the original monophonic version from 1955. Also included is the stereo version from 1957, basically the same but extended by
  about 30 seconds. A definite plus, and enough justification for purchasing the CD, is the inclusion of a recording of Mr. Le Caine explaining the making of
  Dripsody, which uses his sensational Multitrack Tape Recorder (also known as the Variable Speed Tape Recorder, or the Special Purpose Tape Recorder).
  This machine could play back any combination of up to 10 reels of stereo tapes (or loops) utilizing speed control. This enables up to 20 channels of
  diversified information, speed control, flexible mixing, and stereo spring reverberation on the final mix. 

  Other tracks offer enjoyable and informative examples for creating music using his other inventions. Especially remarkable are 99 generators (1956),
  produced on the machine bearing the same name (imagine having 99 generators at once at your fingertips!), and Music for Expo (1967), done using his
  Serial Sound Structure Generator (SSSG), an apparatus permitting total integration of all units in the studio-with no splicing required.

  This is a rich document reviewing the lifelong achievements of this extraordinary Canadian inventor and composer. It features beautifully recorded sound,
  well-written liner-notes, and hard-to-find photographic documents. Gayle Young, author of the Le Caine biography, The Sackbut Blues, produced the
  CD and wrote the booklet. [Editor's note: For a review of The Sackbut Blues, see Computer Music Journal 19(4):96-99.]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

m.c.


From aaron at receive-transmit.com  Tue Oct  7 13:56:48 2003
From: aaron at receive-transmit.com (Aaron Day)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:56:48 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  pioneering electronics, Siemens
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EEE@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <547C4E00-F8BD-11D7-9841-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>

Greetings,

I don't know if this has been mentioned but Siemens really went to town 
in the late 50's early 60's. Sometime in the late 50's Carl Orff was 
commissioned to produce scores for a series of Siemens industrial 
films. He accepted but on the condition that it be done w/ electronics. 
So, Siemens built a studio. It now sits in the Deutschen Museum in 
M?nchen.

Anyway, I have a CD from the Siemens-Studio f?r elektronish Musik that 
was published by the Siemens Kultur Programm that is quite good.

It features compositions by Cage, Pual P?rtner, Josef Riedel and others 
all produced at the Siemens studio. Real beep boop click twinngg stuff.

The copy I have came to me via the Siemens library for another project 
but I think you can poke around their site and get the address of the 
Kultur Programm. The liner notes are great as they give good 
descriptions of all the eqpt (aber auf Deutsche..).

ad




From ed at twelfthroot.com  Tue Oct  7 14:15:44 2003
From: ed at twelfthroot.com (Edmund Eagan)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 08:15:44 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: Le Caine CD
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EEE@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <F9C2DA74-F8BF-11D7-9149-003065D6387A@twelfthroot.com>


On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:21  AM, Czech Martin wrote:

> Is there anybody in Canada who could send (sell) me this JWD03 CD?
> It seems to cost $13.
> I guess it will be ridicolous expensive to order this in
> Germany....
>

Can you not order it online from :

http://www.emfmedia.org/

They have it listed as $16 US.

--------
Edmund Eagan
www.twelfthroot.com


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Tue Oct  7 15:48:25 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:48:25 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: Le Caine CD
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4E0@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Thanx, they seem to have a distributor in Berlin.
I'll try that.

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Edmund Eagan
> Sent: Dienstag, 7. Oktober 2003 14:16
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] ot: Le Caine CD
> 
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:21  AM, Czech Martin wrote:
> 
> > Is there anybody in Canada who could send (sell) me this JWD03 CD?
> > It seems to cost $13.
> > I guess it will be ridicolous expensive to order this in
> > Germany....
> >
> 
> Can you not order it online from :
> 
> http://www.emfmedia.org/
> 
> They have it listed as $16 US.
> 
> --------
> Edmund Eagan
> www.twelfthroot.com
> 
> 


From P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com  Tue Oct  7 18:35:17 2003
From: P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com (Paul Maddox)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:35:17 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] VGA driver info
Message-ID: <03be01c38cf0$fe0c1430$a45e23c0@dilwyn>

Dear all,

 Its not entirly off topic..
I want to use a 640 by 400 display that I have for a project (synth based)
does anyone know of a simple monochrome Driver/PCB that will work at 640 by
400 monochrome?
ideally something with an 8bit interface..

Paul


From r.lekx at chello.nl  Tue Oct  7 20:22:06 2003
From: r.lekx at chello.nl (Rude 66)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:22:06 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  pioneering electronics, Siemens
References: <547C4E00-F8BD-11D7-9841-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>
Message-ID: <016901c38cff$e9c29b20$a5498418@rr23kdenugxqxk>


hey aaron,

 this is the studio i saw. i wonder if it still works..
last night i tried the siemens site, but the 'museum' part wouldn't work,
i'll try again.. i'm really curious how all this machinery sounds..

ruud



----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Day" <aaron at receive-transmit.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens


> Greetings,
>
> I don't know if this has been mentioned but Siemens really went to town
> in the late 50's early 60's. Sometime in the late 50's Carl Orff was
> commissioned to produce scores for a series of Siemens industrial
> films. He accepted but on the condition that it be done w/ electronics.
> So, Siemens built a studio. It now sits in the Deutschen Museum in
> M?nchen.
>
> Anyway, I have a CD from the Siemens-Studio f?r elektronish Musik that
> was published by the Siemens Kultur Programm that is quite good.
>
> It features compositions by Cage, Pual P?rtner, Josef Riedel and others
> all produced at the Siemens studio. Real beep boop click twinngg stuff.
>
> The copy I have came to me via the Siemens library for another project
> but I think you can poke around their site and get the address of the
> Kultur Programm. The liner notes are great as they give good
> descriptions of all the eqpt (aber auf Deutsche..).
>
> ad
>
>
>


From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Tue Oct  7 21:05:13 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:05:13 -0400
Subject: [sdiy]  pioneering electronics, Siemens
In-Reply-To: <016901c38cff$e9c29b20$a5498418@rr23kdenugxqxk>
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCENGCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

http://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstell/dauer/musik/musik7.htm

Is this the studio that you are referring to?

There is a book out called "Experimental Music" which is basically the story
of John Cage and his associates. It is an older book which was published in
the 60's or 70's. I will get the ISBN number in a couple of days when I go
back to the library.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Rude 66
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:22 PM
To: Aaron Day; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens



hey aaron,

 this is the studio i saw. i wonder if it still works..
last night i tried the siemens site, but the 'museum' part wouldn't work,
i'll try again.. i'm really curious how all this machinery sounds..

ruud



----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Day" <aaron at receive-transmit.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens


> Greetings,
>
> I don't know if this has been mentioned but Siemens really went to town
> in the late 50's early 60's. Sometime in the late 50's Carl Orff was
> commissioned to produce scores for a series of Siemens industrial
> films. He accepted but on the condition that it be done w/ electronics.
> So, Siemens built a studio. It now sits in the Deutschen Museum in
> M?nchen.
>
> Anyway, I have a CD from the Siemens-Studio f?r elektronish Musik that
> was published by the Siemens Kultur Programm that is quite good.
>
> It features compositions by Cage, Pual P?rtner, Josef Riedel and others
> all produced at the Siemens studio. Real beep boop click twinngg stuff.
>
> The copy I have came to me via the Siemens library for another project
> but I think you can poke around their site and get the address of the
> Kultur Programm. The liner notes are great as they give good
> descriptions of all the eqpt (aber auf Deutsche..).
>
> ad
>
>
>




____________________________________________________________
Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/


From r.lekx at chello.nl  Tue Oct  7 21:21:01 2003
From: r.lekx at chello.nl (Rude 66)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:21:01 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  pioneering electronics, Siemens
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCENGCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
Message-ID: <018b01c38d08$250e1300$a5498418@rr23kdenugxqxk>

yep, it is. i've taken some photos of some details.. i have to wait till
they come back since they're analogue..;-) we have  a small library in the
cem tsudio of electronic music books. if you can find the isbn i can see if
we have it..

i have often wondered what happened to all the original equipment in these
studios. we still have some tone generators and filters in the CEM, but i'd
think it's pretty rare to have the whole thing intact..

r./

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
To: "Rude 66" <r.lekx at chello.nl>; "Aaron Day" <aaron at receive-transmit.com>;
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens


> http://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstell/dauer/musik/musik7.htm
>
> Is this the studio that you are referring to?
>
> There is a book out called "Experimental Music" which is basically the
story
> of John Cage and his associates. It is an older book which was published
in
> the 60's or 70's. I will get the ISBN number in a couple of days when I go
> back to the library.
>
> Michael
>
.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/


From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Tue Oct  7 21:41:41 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:41:41 -0400
Subject: [sdiy]  pioneering electronics, Siemens
In-Reply-To: <018b01c38d08$250e1300$a5498418@rr23kdenugxqxk>
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCENHCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

One of these days I expect to go to a junk sale in upstate NY and find a
giant tone wheel from a Telharmonium sitting there amongst tractor parts.
Some of these things can never be reconstructed.

Mb

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Rude 66
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 3:21 PM
To: Michael Boracci; Aaron Day; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens


yep, it is. i've taken some photos of some details.. i have to wait till
they come back since they're analogue..;-) we have  a small library in the
cem tsudio of electronic music books. if you can find the isbn i can see if
we have it..

i have often wondered what happened to all the original equipment in these
studios. we still have some tone generators and filters in the CEM, but i'd
think it's pretty rare to have the whole thing intact..

r./

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
To: "Rude 66" <r.lekx at chello.nl>; "Aaron Day" <aaron at receive-transmit.com>;
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens


> http://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstell/dauer/musik/musik7.htm
>
> Is this the studio that you are referring to?
>
> There is a book out called "Experimental Music" which is basically the
story
> of John Cage and his associates. It is an older book which was published
in
> the 60's or 70's. I will get the ISBN number in a couple of days when I go
> back to the library.
>
> Michael
>
.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/




____________________________________________________________
Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/


From r.lekx at chello.nl  Tue Oct  7 22:33:48 2003
From: r.lekx at chello.nl (Rude 66)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:33:48 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  pioneering electronics, Siemens
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCENHCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
Message-ID: <01c201c38d12$50376040$a5498418@rr23kdenugxqxk>

my father in law is a retired rocket engineer. he told me a story of going
to a garage sale in his homwtown in california, and on the front lawn was a
part that he recognized as a section of the engine one of the rockets he had
worked on, costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars to machine back
in those days...and here it was for a few bucks..;-)



----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
To: "Rude 66" <r.lekx at chello.nl>; "Aaron Day" <aaron at receive-transmit.com>;
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens


> One of these days I expect to go to a junk sale in upstate NY and find a
> giant tone wheel from a Telharmonium sitting there amongst tractor parts.
> Some of these things can never be reconstructed.
>
> Mb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Rude 66
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 3:21 PM
> To: Michael Boracci; Aaron Day; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens
>
>
> yep, it is. i've taken some photos of some details.. i have to wait till
> they come back since they're analogue..;-) we have  a small library in the
> cem tsudio of electronic music books. if you can find the isbn i can see
if
> we have it..
>
> i have often wondered what happened to all the original equipment in these
> studios. we still have some tone generators and filters in the CEM, but
i'd
> think it's pretty rare to have the whole thing intact..
>
> r./
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
> To: "Rude 66" <r.lekx at chello.nl>; "Aaron Day"
<aaron at receive-transmit.com>;
> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:05 PM
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens
>
>
> > http://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstell/dauer/musik/musik7.htm
> >
> > Is this the studio that you are referring to?
> >
> > There is a book out called "Experimental Music" which is basically the
> story
> > of John Cage and his associates. It is an older book which was published
> in
> > the 60's or 70's. I will get the ISBN number in a couple of days when I
go
> > back to the library.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> .com http://www.doteasy.com/et/
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
> Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/


From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Tue Oct  7 23:49:40 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:49:40 -0700 
Subject: [sdiy]  pioneering electronics, Siemens-slightly OT
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D759@SBIEXCHANGE>

After WWII, surplus parts could be had for pennies on the dollar. Things
like Plexiglas domes could be had for less than $10. At that time a very
exotic material, Plexiglas sheets and curved sections were used in fighter
windshields and hemispherical 'bubbles' were used in windshields that
covered the gunners in the B-29 bomber. Some originally cost over $1000 and
remember this is in 1940's dollars. Anyway, a LOT of these parts found their
way into the prop departments at the movie studios and could be seen
populating the sets of war and sci-fi movies well into the 70's. Many of the
pieces used for detailing the sets of Star Wars came from war surplus yards.

Tim Servo

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein

************************************************************


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rude 66 [mailto:r.lekx at chello.nl]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:34 PM
> To: Michael Boracci; Aaron Day; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens
> 
> my father in law is a retired rocket engineer. he told me a story of going
> to a garage sale in his homwtown in california, and on the front lawn was
> a
> part that he recognized as a section of the engine one of the rockets he
> had
> worked on, costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars to machine
> back
> in those days...and here it was for a few bucks..;-)
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
> To: "Rude 66" <r.lekx at chello.nl>; "Aaron Day" <aaron at receive-
> transmit.com>;
> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:41 PM
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens
> 
> 
> > One of these days I expect to go to a junk sale in upstate NY and find a
> > giant tone wheel from a Telharmonium sitting there amongst tractor
> parts.
> > Some of these things can never be reconstructed.
> >
> > Mb
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Rude 66
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 3:21 PM
> > To: Michael Boracci; Aaron Day; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens
> >
> >
> > yep, it is. i've taken some photos of some details.. i have to wait till
> > they come back since they're analogue..;-) we have  a small library in
> the
> > cem tsudio of electronic music books. if you can find the isbn i can see
> if
> > we have it..
> >
> > i have often wondered what happened to all the original equipment in
> these
> > studios. we still have some tone generators and filters in the CEM, but
> i'd
> > think it's pretty rare to have the whole thing intact..
> >
> > r./
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
> > To: "Rude 66" <r.lekx at chello.nl>; "Aaron Day"
> <aaron at receive-transmit.com>;
> > <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:05 PM
> > Subject: RE: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens
> >
> >
> > > http://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstell/dauer/musik/musik7.htm
> > >
> > > Is this the studio that you are referring to?
> > >
> > > There is a book out called "Experimental Music" which is basically the
> > story
> > > of John Cage and his associates. It is an older book which was
> published
> > in
> > > the 60's or 70's. I will get the ISBN number in a couple of days when
> I
> go
> > > back to the library.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > .com http://www.doteasy.com/et/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
> > Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/



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From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Wed Oct  8 00:08:55 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 18:08:55 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] D-beam Controller
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCEENICFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

Dear Synth-Wizards,
Does anyone have a simple reflective light based controller schematic (
like the D-beam found on Roland synths? ) Particularly in terms of linear
and log. CV output.

Michael
-------------- next part --------------
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From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Wed Oct  8 00:09:06 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:09:06 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Another new module: 4 pole multimode filter
In-Reply-To: <012f01c38cb7$9b4574b0$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310051843280.32152-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net> <03100621315501.00671@Robert> <012f01c38cb7$9b4574b0$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
Message-ID: <03100800090601.00671@Robert>

On Tuesday 07 October 2003 11:44, Paul Maddox wrote:
> I was having a bad day :-)

As long as it wasn't a bad hair day... ;-))


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

Q series MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfQDocs



From rayw at csd.net  Wed Oct  8 01:38:44 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:38:44 -0600
Subject: [sdiy]  pioneering electronics, Siemens
In-Reply-To: <018b01c38d08$250e1300$a5498418@rr23kdenugxqxk>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANAEKGCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi all

If you need a half decent translation go here:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

Enter the URL and click translate. The whole page gets translated so that
you can at least get the main ideas.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Rude 66
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:21 PM
To: Michael Boracci; Aaron Day; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens


yep, it is. i've taken some photos of some details.. i have to wait till
they come back since they're analogue..;-) we have  a small library in the
cem tsudio of electronic music books. if you can find the isbn i can see if
we have it..

i have often wondered what happened to all the original equipment in these
studios. we still have some tone generators and filters in the CEM, but i'd
think it's pretty rare to have the whole thing intact..

r./

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
To: "Rude 66" <r.lekx at chello.nl>; "Aaron Day" <aaron at receive-transmit.com>;
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] pioneering electronics, Siemens


> http://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstell/dauer/musik/musik7.htm
>
> Is this the studio that you are referring to?
>
> There is a book out called "Experimental Music" which is basically the
story
> of John Cage and his associates. It is an older book which was published
in
> the 60's or 70's. I will get the ISBN number in a couple of days when I go
> back to the library.
>
> Michael
>
.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/


From amajorel at teaser.fr  Wed Oct  8 01:49:17 2003
From: amajorel at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 01:49:17 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] DIP16 unsoldering tip for Weller WTCPS
Message-ID: <20031007234917.GC1148@teaser.fr>

I'm thinking of getting myself a DIP16 unsoldering tip for my
Weller WTCPS. The Weller part number is 41.734-99. It's the one on
the right on this photo :

  http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/tip-dip16.jpg

(the one on the left is the same for DIP24).

Does anyone have experience with these ? Are they worth the 50 EUR
they're sold for ?

-- 
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From john.l.marshall at gte.net  Wed Oct  8 02:11:12 2003
From: john.l.marshall at gte.net (John L Marshall)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:11:12 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] DIP16 unsoldering tip for Weller WTCPS
References: <20031007234917.GC1148@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <001301c38d30$afdb3030$6601a8c0@PURPLE>

I have one. Doesn't work well for me. Seems to require more heat than the
iron can put out. Want mine?

Take care,
John
------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sound-photo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andre Majorel" <amajorel at teaser.fr>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 4:49 PM
Subject: [sdiy] DIP16 unsoldering tip for Weller WTCPS


> I'm thinking of getting myself a DIP16 unsoldering tip for my
> Weller WTCPS. The Weller part number is 41.734-99. It's the one on
> the right on this photo :
>
>   http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/tip-dip16.jpg
>
> (the one on the left is the same for DIP24).
>
> Does anyone have experience with these ? Are they worth the 50 EUR
> they're sold for ?
>
> -- 
> Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
> http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From amajorel at teaser.fr  Wed Oct  8 02:37:16 2003
From: amajorel at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 02:37:16 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] DIP16 unsoldering tip for Weller WTCPS
In-Reply-To: <001301c38d30$afdb3030$6601a8c0@PURPLE>
References: <20031007234917.GC1148@teaser.fr> <001301c38d30$afdb3030$6601a8c0@PURPLE>
Message-ID: <20031008003716.GD1148@teaser.fr>

On 2003-10-07 17:11 -0700, John L Marshall wrote:

> > I'm thinking of getting myself a DIP16 unsoldering tip for my
> > Weller WTCPS. The Weller part number is 41.734-99. It's the one on
> > the right on this photo :
> >
> >   http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/tip-dip16.jpg
> >
> > (the one on the left is the same for DIP24).
> >
> > Does anyone have experience with these ? Are they worth the 50 EUR
> > they're sold for ?
>
> I have one. Doesn't work well for me. Seems to require more heat than the
> iron can put out. Want mine?

Ha, just the sort of stuff I expected. Is it a 50 W iron that you
have ?

-- 
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From allens at sgi.com  Wed Oct  8 03:31:32 2003
From: allens at sgi.com (Steven Allen)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:31:32 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] DIP16 unsoldering tip for Weller WTCPS
References: <20031007234917.GC1148@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <3F8368F4.925E6FE3@sgi.com>

Andre Majorel wrote:
> 
> I'm thinking of getting myself a DIP16 unsoldering tip for my
> Weller WTCPS. The Weller part number is 41.734-99. It's the one on
> the right on this photo :
> 
>   http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/tip-dip16.jpg
> 
> (the one on the left is the same for DIP24).
> 
> Does anyone have experience with these ? Are they worth the 50 EUR
> they're sold for ?
> 
> --
> Andri Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
> http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/

 How about solder braid? Seems like it would be a heck of a lot cheaper
unless your changing 16 pin devices all the time. The solder wick may
take a little practice, but it is useable in all kinds of situations.
 Just a thought, guess I'm cheap.... : <
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From john.l.marshall at gte.net  Wed Oct  8 04:23:11 2003
From: john.l.marshall at gte.net (John L Marshall)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:23:11 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] DIP16 unsoldering tip for Weller WTCPS
References: <20031007234917.GC1148@teaser.fr> <001301c38d30$afdb3030$6601a8c0@PURPLE> <20031008003716.GD1148@teaser.fr>
Message-ID: <002901c38d43$1f1ac840$6601a8c0@PURPLE>

Model W-TCP-L, 24 volts @ 2 amps. I bought it in 1971, I think. Works
excellent for everything else. When I really need the heat, I warm up the
American Beauty.

Take care,
John
------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sound-photo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andre Majorel" <amajorel at teaser.fr>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] DIP16 unsoldering tip for Weller WTCPS


> On 2003-10-07 17:11 -0700, John L Marshall wrote:
>
> > > I'm thinking of getting myself a DIP16 unsoldering tip for my
> > > Weller WTCPS. The Weller part number is 41.734-99. It's the one on
> > > the right on this photo :
> > >
> > >   http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/tip-dip16.jpg
> > >
> > > (the one on the left is the same for DIP24).
> > >
> > > Does anyone have experience with these ? Are they worth the 50 EUR
> > > they're sold for ?
> >
> > I have one. Doesn't work well for me. Seems to require more heat than
the
> > iron can put out. Want mine?
>
> Ha, just the sort of stuff I expected. Is it a 50 W iron that you
> have ?
>
> -- 
> Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
> http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From jmahoney at gate.net  Wed Oct  8 05:03:25 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:03:25 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Re: Dr. LeCaine ...
References: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]> <200310070905.SAA01912@bgsv8168.tk.mesh.ad.jp>
Message-ID: <012a01c38d48$bdbc45a0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

As an American looking at a Japanese man's photos of a Canadian museum by
way of a mailing list hosted in the Netherlands, I say "The Internet is
pretty cool!" Thank you, Sam-san. :-)

As for the photos, does anybody want to take a stab at describing them?

Fun to look at, I wonder how it all sounds. Looks like a combination of
purpose-built and repurposed devices. The keyboard in P3020015.JPG is a
mess! I think junkyard pianos and organs were the keyboard donors. Not all
of the pioneers had luxurious laboratories.
--
john


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp>
To: <ensign7 at e-scape.net>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>;
<Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:05 AM
Subject: Dr. LeCaine (Re: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic
music)


> Hello List,
>
> I took some photos of the museum when I lived in Ottawa.
>
>   http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~houshu/museum/
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Sam Hoshuyama
> Kawasaki, JAPAN


From craigc at nwlink.com  Wed Oct  8 06:05:49 2003
From: craigc at nwlink.com (Craig Critchley)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:05:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] VGA driver info
References: <03be01c38cf0$fe0c1430$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
Message-ID: <00a801c38d51$77024250$6400a8c0@craigc>

Do you have any recycled computer places around? You might be able to find
an ISA bus EGA or VGA clone if you dig through enough old crap... ISA is a
pretty simple bus, especially for a display, and the wonkiness of the EGA
architecture isn't too much of an issue if you're doing monochrome.

You might also be able to find a modern display card for PC/104, which is
basically an embedded ISA bus. It'll be more expensive than an old clone
card, but probably a lot smaller and less power-hungry.

You should be able to drive an EGA or VGA clone with just 8-bit bus accesses
even though most of these cards will support 16-bit, if you stay away from
lotsa-colors modes.

                ...Craig

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Maddox" <P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com>
To: "Synth DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:35 AM
Subject: [sdiy] VGA driver info


> Dear all,
>
>  Its not entirly off topic..
> I want to use a 640 by 400 display that I have for a project (synth based)
> does anyone know of a simple monochrome Driver/PCB that will work at 640
by
> 400 monochrome?
> ideally something with an 8bit interface..
>
> Paul
>


From peter.ullrich at kapsch.net  Wed Oct  8 09:10:16 2003
From: peter.ullrich at kapsch.net (Ullrich Peter)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:10:16 +0200
Subject: AW: [sdiy] VGA driver info
Message-ID: <7106E489D7E9DE44B3FDA28A4ECB22764C1909@PUMBAA.kapsch.co.at>

> Its not entirly off topic..
>I want to use a 640 by 400 display that I have for a project (synth based)
>does anyone know of a simple monochrome Driver/PCB that will work at 640 by
>400 monochrome?
>ideally something with an 8bit interface..

If you dan't want to use a PC-card you could build your own controller 
using a 6845 graphic controller that has been used on old CGA/MGA graphic 
cards for the PC.

A project including schematics is here:
http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DS68/VDB_Index.htm

Ciao
Peter

        \|/
       (o o)
--oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------------------------
                   Ing. Peter Ullrich   
	            Hardware & Software Developer  /  Electronic Musician
	            Kapsch TrafficCom AG                 Vienna / Austria
	            http://www.kapsch-trafficcom.com/
	            -----------------------------------------------------
	            *Tel:  +43 (0)50 811 2265   
	            * Fax:  +43 (0)-50 811 2209
	            *EFax: +43 (0)50 811 992265
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   (   )   Oooo.   ----------------------------------------------------
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From macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Oct  8 10:32:42 2003
From: macbeth2600 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20MacBeth?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:32:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] Using LF398 for Keyboard S&H
In-Reply-To: <3F81CEBB.4010608@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20031008083242.14126.qmail@web86203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi All! I just picked up a beautiful 5 octave dual contact bare keyboard and would like to do a 'one off' keyboard controller. I've actually done this before using the basic Prodigy circuit, but at time the hold over time drooped a bit. It has occured to me to use an LF398 Sample and Hold amplifier to do what the the fet and the jfet opamp seem to be doing in the Prodigy keyboard circuit- any opinions/experiences/examples of doing this, anyone?

Best regards, Ken



http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com
Home of the M3X Analogue synthesizer...

---------------------------------
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From P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com  Wed Oct  8 10:42:11 2003
From: P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com (Paul Maddox)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:42:11 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] VGA driver info
References: <7106E489D7E9DE44B3FDA28A4ECB22764C1909@PUMBAA.kapsch.co.at>
Message-ID: <019601c38d78$10ed6090$a45e23c0@dilwyn>

All,

 Thanks fo rthe replies, perhaps I should've explained more..
I have the display, its a planar 640by400 (you can seen pictures of it
here - http://www.modulus.synth.net/tempest/)
It has 4 signals;-

VID Data
VID CLK
HSync
VSync

The timing is pretty much VGA (except its 400 lines not 480)
its Monochrome (a lovelly orange)
It needs a refresh rate of 60hz or 70hz

So, I figured rather than 're-invent the wheel' I'd see what I could find...

Paul






From pi0say at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  8 11:29:22 2003
From: pi0say at hotmail.com (yasi perera)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 02:29:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
Message-ID: <LAW12-F12nqqKgWRjfX00024d98@hotmail.com>

Hi,
just wondering if anybody knows where to get some (~25) mm5837's.

thanks,
yasi perera

_________________________________________________________________
Help protect your PC.  Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. 
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From dave.peachey at rbs.co.uk  Wed Oct  8 11:40:30 2003
From: dave.peachey at rbs.co.uk (Peachey, Dave)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:40:30 -0000 
Subject: [sdiy] New Digisound Modular resource site
Message-ID: <C14E56CAC1BDD611AAFD0008023CCD51020F4ED5@rlrgntbldx3.server.rbsgrp.net>

All,

Apologies for intruding on the list - I'm sure the last thing you all want
to see is _yet another_ new web site with SDIY-related content.  My excuse
is that I'm trying to create a definitive internet-based resource for the
Digisound 80 Modular Synthesizer (especially given the large amount of data
I've acquired over the years).

Here's my submission
http://www.digisound80.synth.net/Music/Synth_DIY/Digisound_Resource/digisoun
d.htm.  It's not the prettiest site in the world and the Digisound content
is, as yet, quite sparse as I need to spend _a lot_ of time digitising
construction notes and taking pictures of the modules in my collection.

Any corrections, further information, comments, etc. regarding the content
would be appreciated.

Cheers
Dave
http://www.digisound80.synth.net/


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From np at inverse-entertainment.de  Wed Oct  8 13:57:56 2003
From: np at inverse-entertainment.de (Nils Pipenbrinck)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:57:56 +0200
Subject: AW: [sdiy] VGA driver info
In-Reply-To: <019601c38d78$10ed6090$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
Message-ID: <AMEHLEGDICECIDLKKHDHEEODCKAA.np@inverse-entertainment.de>

Paul Maddox wrote:

> Thanks fo rthe replies, perhaps I should've explained more..
> I have the display, its a planar 640by400 (you can seen pictures of it
> here - http://www.modulus.synth.net/tempest/)
> It has 4 signals;-

Hi Paul,

Since you use an FPGA, have you considered this one?

http://www.opencores.org/projects/vga_lcd/

It's an opensource FPGA code for a vga and lcd controller. OpenCores.org
also has lots of other interesting codes.

  Nils



From P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com  Wed Oct  8 14:37:57 2003
From: P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com (Paul Maddox)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:37:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] VGA driver info
References: <AMEHLEGDICECIDLKKHDHEEODCKAA.np@inverse-entertainment.de>
Message-ID: <032f01c38d99$011a7650$a45e23c0@dilwyn>

Nils,

> Since you use an FPGA, have you considered this one?
> http://www.opencores.org/projects/vga_lcd/
>
> It's an opensource FPGA code for a vga and lcd controller. OpenCores.org
> also has lots of other interesting codes.

yeah I had a look at it, and its a bit of a case of 'sledgehammer and nut'..
I've also tried to read the spec (PDF) a few times, only to get more
confused each time.
Add to this I've all of my FPGA work in VHDL, not verilog and its pretty
confusing :-)

Paul


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Wed Oct  8 15:16:21 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:16:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music
In-Reply-To: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]>
Message-ID: <20031008131621.64168.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com>

Keyboard magazine had a series of rewievs of old electronic
music innventors, Hugh le Chaine was covered in some these
pages.

I think they also mentioned Hugh as the inventor of voltage
control, but im not shure.Anyway a interesting rewiev of the
things he have done!

KD

--- Keith Daniel <ensign7 at e-scape.net> skrev: > >I'm interested to hear
about electrnoic music pioneers...
> 
> >Local historiography of course assumes the local heros to be the first.
> 
> At the end of WWII, the National Research Council of Canada sent some
> off to research aerodynamics, jet engines, analog computers...
> 
> One of the analog computer geniuses, Hugh Lecaine, was given grants to
> design and build electronic music instruments. Perhaps Canada was tired
> of war, and had this weird idea that art and culture were more
> imprortant. Or maybe he just didn't fit into the new cold war ideals.
> 
> Dr. Lecaine had his own ideas to work on, like tube oscillator banks to
> do formant synthesis. Or his precursor to the Mellotron.
> 
> It has been suggested that Dr. LeCaine was the first to use voltage
> control for music.
> 
> I used to work with his machines, and the neatest was the Poly.
> Individual oscillators for each key, and a 'tear drop' optical amplitude
> dynamic arrangement. Built in 1962.
> 
> His machines are now in storage at the Museum of Science and Technology
> in Ottawa.
> 
> I started electronic music in 1973, the year Dr. LeCaine passed away.
> Never got to meet him.
> 
> But he's the Great Canadian Pioneer of Electronic Music.
 
> Keith Daniel
  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Wed Oct  8 16:20:36 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:20:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Binary state change detector
In-Reply-To: <032f01c38d99$011a7650$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
Message-ID: <BBA96B44.DA01%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

I am looking for a circuit that detects when the state (number) of a  four
bit binary word changes state.

I've been putzing around with the idea of using a 74C85 in conjunction with
a 4242 (using the 42 to latch the the last occurrence of change and feed it
back into the C85 for the next comparison, and then running that output
through a oneshot to keep it from disappearing as soon as it is sensed, but
to this I have a question:

How short of a incoming pulse does a oneshot require in order to react?  For
instance, another perfect example is a sequencer reset pulse coming from one
of it's stage gate outputs.  As soon as it goes high, the reset function
occurs and the gate is no longer high.  Will that pulse width, as short as
it is, be long enough for a oneshot to react?  Although this isn't my
application, its the same idea and if it's long enough, me thinks I've got
the circuit I need here.

If not, I'm totally screwed and am asking the masters here if they have any
other suggestions.

thanks in advance,

Peter


From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Wed Oct  8 16:57:31 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:57:31 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Binary state change detector
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4EA@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <BBA973EA.DA11%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

re: synchronous.

can't.

OK, here's the application:

Milton has the ability to react synchronously or asynchronously to it's VC
Input.  Synchronous is cool and has its applications, but asynchronous is
REAL cool because you get the added benefit of a certain amount of
expression gained by non-linear advancement, such as from a sine wave
driving the circuit.

Problem is, when the async is thrown in, the user looses all syncing.  I
need a way to extrapolate a sync pulse based on the logic changes going into
the 4516 counter from the A to D, because at that point that's the only
thing driving the sequencer as the incoming clock is taken completely out of
the circuit.

I tried using a frequency doubler on the MSB of the A to D, but the R/C is
too dependant on the frequency of state changes and it was hard to find one
circuit that could react accurately across the entire expected operating
range of the sequencer.  So, I figured the only reliable way to do it was to
sense the state changes themselves and not an R/C to derive a phantom clock
as the doubler attempts to do.

- Peter

 Czech Martin wrote:

> if it is all clocked, why don't you use a clocked FF
> to hold the information. This is ok as long as you can make
> up for the additional delay of one clock, which is possible
> for many applications.
> 
> Why build some asynchronous logic when synchronous stuff
> will do the job?
> 
> m.c.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Peter Grenader
>> Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2003 16:21
>> To: Synth DIY
>> Subject: [sdiy] Binary state change detector
>> 
>> 
>> I am looking for a circuit that detects when the state
>> (number) of a  four
>> bit binary word changes state.
>> 
>> I've been putzing around with the idea of using a 74C85 in
>> conjunction with
>> a 4242 (using the 42 to latch the the last occurrence of
>> change and feed it
>> back into the C85 for the next comparison, and then running
>> that output
>> through a oneshot to keep it from disappearing as soon as it
>> is sensed, but
>> to this I have a question:
>> 
>> How short of a incoming pulse does a oneshot require in order
>> to react?  For
>> instance, another perfect example is a sequencer reset pulse
>> coming from one
>> of it's stage gate outputs.  As soon as it goes high, the
>> reset function
>> occurs and the gate is no longer high.  Will that pulse
>> width, as short as
>> it is, be long enough for a oneshot to react?  Although this isn't my
>> application, its the same idea and if it's long enough, me
>> thinks I've got
>> the circuit I need here.
>> 
>> If not, I'm totally screwed and am asking the masters here if
>> they have any
>> other suggestions.
>> 
>> thanks in advance,
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
> 


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Wed Oct  8 17:00:59 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:00:59 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Binary state change detector
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C4EA@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

if it is all clocked, why don't you use a clocked FF
to hold the information. This is ok as long as you can make
up for the additional delay of one clock, which is possible 
for many applications.

Why build some asynchronous logic when synchronous stuff
will do the job?

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Peter Grenader
> Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2003 16:21
> To: Synth DIY
> Subject: [sdiy] Binary state change detector
> 
> 
> I am looking for a circuit that detects when the state 
> (number) of a  four
> bit binary word changes state.
> 
> I've been putzing around with the idea of using a 74C85 in 
> conjunction with
> a 4242 (using the 42 to latch the the last occurrence of 
> change and feed it
> back into the C85 for the next comparison, and then running 
> that output
> through a oneshot to keep it from disappearing as soon as it 
> is sensed, but
> to this I have a question:
> 
> How short of a incoming pulse does a oneshot require in order 
> to react?  For
> instance, another perfect example is a sequencer reset pulse 
> coming from one
> of it's stage gate outputs.  As soon as it goes high, the 
> reset function
> occurs and the gate is no longer high.  Will that pulse 
> width, as short as
> it is, be long enough for a oneshot to react?  Although this isn't my
> application, its the same idea and if it's long enough, me 
> thinks I've got
> the circuit I need here.
> 
> If not, I'm totally screwed and am asking the masters here if 
> they have any
> other suggestions.
> 
> thanks in advance,
> 
> Peter
> 
> 


From cris at music-service.nl  Wed Oct  8 17:03:39 2003
From: cris at music-service.nl (cris at music-service.nl)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:03:39 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] IBIS to Pspice
Message-ID: <027a01c38dad$5cf87030$6702a8c0@cris>

Hi all,

I am trying to convert IBIS files to Pspice V8.0 files and is not working.
I am using IBIT2SPICE program : http://www.intusoft.com/utilities.htm
Is impossible to import the files what i made with this program in Pspice.
Can you please help me with this problem?

Thanks in advance,

Cris 
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From david.k.cornutt at boeing.com  Wed Oct  8 17:05:44 2003
From: david.k.cornutt at boeing.com (Cornutt, David K)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:05:44 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Binary state change detector
Message-ID: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6D95@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>


> 
> How short of a incoming pulse does a oneshot require in order 
> to react?  

How fast are you expecting it to change?  If you're
talking about audio frequencies, ordinary 7400/5400
logic will be plenty fast enough.


From modular at go2.pl  Wed Oct  8 17:56:41 2003
From: modular at go2.pl (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Roman?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:56:41 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Re:=20[sdiy]=20Binary=20state=20change=20detector?=
Message-ID: <20031008145641.335708AA52@rekin4.o2.pl>

You don't need 42 to latch, a RC will do.
connect each input directly to A input of hc85
and via 1k to B input, which has 1n cap to ground.
Every changing bit will cause mismatch on A/B
inputs for more or less the time constant of RC.
This way you save 1 IC and have full control
on pulse width. If you make it as long as intended
one shot, you can even leave that part off.

Roman

---- Wiadomo?? Oryginalna ----
Od: Peter Grenader <peter at buzzclick-music.com>
Do: Synth DIY <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Data: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:20:36 -0700
Temat: [sdiy] Binary state change detector

>I am looking for a circuit that detects when the state (number) of a  four
>bit binary word changes state.
>
>I've been putzing around with the idea of using a 74C85 in conjunction with
>a 4242 (using the 42 to latch the the last occurrence of change and feed it
>back into the C85 for the next comparison, and then running that output
>through a oneshot to keep it from disappearing as soon as it is sensed, but
>to this I have a question:
>
>How short of a incoming pulse does a oneshot require in order to react?  For
>instance, another perfect example is a sequencer reset pulse coming from one
>of it's stage gate outputs.  As soon as it goes high, the reset function
>occurs and the gate is no longer high.  Will that pulse width, as short as
>it is, be long enough for a oneshot to react?  Although this isn't my
>application, its the same idea and if it's long enough, me thinks I've got
>the circuit I need here.
>
>If not, I'm totally screwed and am asking the masters here if they have any
>other suggestions.
>
>thanks in advance,
>
>Peter
>
>


From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Wed Oct  8 18:00:00 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:00:00 -0700 
Subject: [sdiy] New Digisound Modular resource site
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D75A@SBIEXCHANGE>

/snip
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peachey, Dave [mailto:dave.peachey at rbs.co.uk]

> Apologies for intruding on the list - I'm sure the last thing you all want
> to see is _yet another_ new web site with SDIY-related content.  My excuse
/snip

Are you kidding? We LOVE stuff like this! Thanks for sharing Peachey Dave!

Tim Servo



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From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Wed Oct  8 18:24:50 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:24:50 -0700 
Subject: [sdiy] Binary state change detector
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D75B@SBIEXCHANGE>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Grenader [mailto:peter at buzzclick-music.com]
> 
> How short of a incoming pulse does a oneshot require in order to react?

Is this in the data sheet for the 7485? Haven't had time to look myself, and
sometimes the stuff in the data sheets can be pretty cryptic, but I would be
surprised if this sort of thing wasn't specified somewhere.

Tim Servo



***************************************************************************
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recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
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From dreichert at sympatico.ca  Wed Oct  8 21:23:43 2003
From: dreichert at sympatico.ca (dreichert at sympatico.ca)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:23:43 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] CA3084
Message-ID: <20031008192344.DCYB24177.tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>

Hi all,

Could anyone possibly tell me where I could find a data sheet (or at least a pinout diagram) for the CA3084 PNP transistor array? My Google search turned up nothing.

Thanks,
Dave



From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Wed Oct  8 21:33:01 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:33:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] New Digisound Modular resource site
Message-ID: <20031008123302.1172.h002.c002.wm@mail.peoplepc.com.criticalpath.net>

Oh, yeah!  Very nice site, indeed!  Thanks for posting it.  30 pounds for a CEM
based VCO.....those were the days.  I always kick myself for not buying more
CEM's than I did from PAiA back in the 80's, and now here's another reason for an
additional kick =-D.

Cheers,
Scott


On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:40:30 -0000 , "Peachey, Dave" wrote:

> 
> All,
> 
> Apologies for intruding on the list - I'm sure the last thing you all want
> to see is _yet another_ new web site with SDIY-related content.  My excuse
> is that I'm trying to create a definitive internet-based resource for the
> Digisound 80 Modular Synthesizer (especially given the large amount of data
> I've acquired over the years).
> 
> Here's my submission
> http://www.digisound80.synth.net/Music/Synth_DIY/Digisound_Resource/digisoun
> d.htm.  It's not the prettiest site in the world and the Digisound content
> is, as yet, quite sparse as I need to spend _a lot_ of time digitising
> construction notes and taking pictures of the modules in my collection.
> 
> Any corrections, further information, comments, etc. regarding the content
> would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> http://www.digisound80.synth.net/
> 
> 
> The Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Registered in Scotland No. 90312. Registered
> Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh EH2 2YB
> 
> The Royal Bank of Scotland plc is authorised and regulated by the Financial
> Services Authority and represents The Royal Bank of Scotland Marketing Group.
The
> Bank sells life polices, collective investment schemes and pension products and
> advises only on the Marketing Group's range of these products and on a
> With-Profit Bond produced by Norwich Union Life (RBS) Limited.
> 
> This e-mail message is confidential and for use by the addressee only. If the
> message is received by anyone other than the addressee, please return the
message
> to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer.
> Internet e-mails are not necessarily secure. The Royal Bank of Scotland plc does
> not accept responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent.
> 
> Whilst all reasonable care has been taken to avoid the transmission of viruses,
> it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that the onward
transmission,
> opening or use of this message and any attachments will not adversely affect its
> systems or data. No responsibility is accepted by The Royal Bank of Scotland plc
> in this regard and the recipient should carry out such virus and other checks as
> it considers appropriate.

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 


From mai00fpz at informatik.uni-leipzig.de  Wed Oct  8 22:06:52 2003
From: mai00fpz at informatik.uni-leipzig.de (Sven Windisch)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:06:52 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.50.0310082204430.16706-100000@userv1>

Hi all.

Somewhere i read about the Polivoks, a russian synth, and it's filter.
Could someone please point me to a schematic of this filter??

Greetings,
Sven.

-- 
To some ears, "computational philosophy of science" will
sound like the most self-contradictory enterprise in
philosophy since business ethics.
[Paul Thagard in "Computational Philosophy of Science"]


From trypannon at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  8 22:50:50 2003
From: trypannon at hotmail.com (Steve Begin)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:50:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music
References: <l03130302bba792ddaad0@[216.94.217.151]> <3F82397C.30209@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <LAW12-OE65WZS11aU4M00005216@hotmail.com>

Where in the museum are they?  I've never seen them there before.  I'm so
ashamed!
-Steve


----- Original Message -----
From: "Oren Leavitt" <oleavitt at ix.netcom.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] ot: search for pioneers of electronic music


> There is a good book about Hugh Le Caine and his work:
>
> The Sackbut Blues - Hugh Le Caine Pioneer in Electronic Music
> by Gayle Young
> 1989, National Museum of Science and Technology
> ISBN 0-660-12006-2
>
>
> Keith Daniel wrote:
>
> >>I'm interested to hear about electrnoic music pioneers...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>Local historiography of course assumes the local heros to be the first.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >At the end of WWII, the National Research Council of Canada sent some off
to research aerodynamics, jet engines, analog computers...
> >
> >One of the analog computer geniuses, Hugh Lecaine, was given grants to
design and build electronic music instruments. Perhaps Canada was tired of
war, and had this weird idea that art and culture were more imprortant. Or
maybe he just didn't fit into the new cold war ideals.
> >
> >Dr. Lecaine had his own ideas to work on, like tube oscillator banks to
do formant synthesis. Or his precursor to the Mellotron.
> >
> >It has been suggested that Dr. LeCaine was the first to use voltage
control for music.
> >
> >I used to work with his machines, and the neatest was the Poly.
Individual oscillators for each key, and a 'tear drop' optical amplitude
dynamic arrangement. Built in 1962.
> >
> >His machines are now in storage at the Museum of Science and Technology
in Ottawa.
> >
> >I started electronic music in 1973, the year Dr. LeCaine passed away.
Never got to meet him.
> >
> >But he's the Great Canadian Pioneer of Electronic Music.
> >
> >
> >
> >Keith Daniel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Oren Leavitt
> oleavitt at ix.netcom.com
>
>
>
>


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Wed Oct  8 23:06:17 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 23:06:17 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.50.0310082204430.16706-100000@userv1>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.50.0310082204430.16706-100000@userv1>
Message-ID: <3F847C49.1040807@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Sven,

> Somewhere i read about the Polivoks, a russian synth, and it's filter.
> Could someone please point me to a schematic of this filter??

I have those. The polyvox is in essence a clone of the moog prodigy
IIRC. I've posted them here: 
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/polivoks/index.html

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159





From fdi at ran.es  Wed Oct  8 23:49:42 2003
From: fdi at ran.es (Fernando de Izuzquiza)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:49:42 -0000
Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
Message-ID: <200310081950.h98JomWg007663@correo.direccion.com>

Hi all,

Wondering about risks of using non-shielded cable for patching.
Crosstalk? EMI? RFI?, where is the "danger"?
Planning to use 4mm banana cabling but not shure of potential problems,
mostly for audio signals but also for CV.

Imagine a 3 or 4 rack frames modular, each 12U, so lots of modules. Heavily
patched. Cords interpatching frames too. One PSU per frame at about 1 meter
away in the floor.
What happens if all cables are 4mm banana patchcords? (except output cables
to amps)

How much will the audio and CV signals suffer, degrade or be prone to
interference, etc?


Thank you,

Fernando


<br><br>
Direccion.com<br>
________________________________________________<br>
This
mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Thu Oct  9 00:01:57 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:01:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
In-Reply-To: <3F847C49.1040807@uni-bonn.de>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.50.0310082204430.16706-100000@userv1> <3F847C49.1040807@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <3F848955.3@uni-bonn.de>

Hi again,

Also there is some more info (including schematics) available at 
http://www.ruskeys.net/eng/base/polivoks.php

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From sasami at hotkey.net.au  Thu Oct  9 00:46:23 2003
From: sasami at hotkey.net.au (Ken Stone)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:46:23 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
Message-ID: <200310082246.h98MkMr20705@duckula.hotkey.net.au>

Generally speaking, synth levels are so high that induced noise is
insignificant in comparison to the signal, so unshielded can be used. Of
course, purists would say shielded is better, but you can't do that with
bananas.

Ken


>Hi all,
>
>Wondering about risks of using non-shielded cable for patching.
>Crosstalk? EMI? RFI?, where is the "danger"?
>Planning to use 4mm banana cabling but not shure of potential problems,
>mostly for audio signals but also for CV.
>
>Imagine a 3 or 4 rack frames modular, each 12U, so lots of modules. Heavily
>patched. Cords interpatching frames too. One PSU per frame at about 1 meter
>away in the floor.
>What happens if all cables are 4mm banana patchcords? (except output cables
>to amps)
>
>How much will the audio and CV signals suffer, degrade or be prone to
>interference, etc?
>
>
>Thank you,
>
>Fernando
>
>
><br><br>
>Direccion.com<br>
>________________________________________________<br>
>This
>mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone   sasami at hotkey.net.au  
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/synth/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>


From rayw at csd.net  Thu Oct  9 02:29:42 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:29:42 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
In-Reply-To: <LAW12-F12nqqKgWRjfX00024d98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGELECDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi yasi

I couldn't find the MM5837 anywhere. Often when you find that a chip is
un-findable it is probably a good idea to find another way to accomplish the
goal or else when your totally cool circuit goes kaput finding a replacement
only gets harder and finally impossible.

If all you want is noise check this out.

http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html

Hope this helps.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of yasi perera
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 3:29 AM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837


Hi,
just wondering if anybody knows where to get some (~25) mm5837's.

thanks,
yasi perera

_________________________________________________________________
Help protect your PC.  Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


From rayw at csd.net  Thu Oct  9 02:35:46 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:35:46 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] New Digisound Modular resource site
In-Reply-To: <C14E56CAC1BDD611AAFD0008023CCD51020F4ED5@rlrgntbldx3.server.rbsgrp.net>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOELECDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi Dave

That is some excellent info on the digisound stuff. I couldn't find any
sound samples which would be like icing on a cake. Thanks for sharing the
knowledge.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Peachey, Dave
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 3:41 AM
To: 'synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl'
Subject: [sdiy] New Digisound Modular resource site


All,

Apologies for intruding on the list - I'm sure the last thing you all want
to see is _yet another_ new web site with SDIY-related content.  My excuse
is that I'm trying to create a definitive internet-based resource for the
Digisound 80 Modular Synthesizer (especially given the large amount of data
I've acquired over the years).

Here's my submission
http://www.digisound80.synth.net/Music/Synth_DIY/Digisound_Resource/digisoun
d.htm.  It's not the prettiest site in the world and the Digisound content
is, as yet, quite sparse as I need to spend _a lot_ of time digitising
construction notes and taking pictures of the modules in my collection.

Any corrections, further information, comments, etc. regarding the content
would be appreciated.

Cheers
Dave
http://www.digisound80.synth.net/


The Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Registered in Scotland No. 90312. Registered
Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh EH2 2YB

The Royal Bank of Scotland plc is authorised and regulated by the Financial
Services Authority and represents The Royal Bank of Scotland Marketing
Group. The Bank sells life polices, collective investment schemes and
pension products and advises only on the Marketing Group's range of these
products and on a With-Profit Bond produced by Norwich Union Life (RBS)
Limited.

This e-mail message is confidential and for use by the addressee only. If
the message is received by anyone other than the addressee, please return
the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from
your computer. Internet e-mails are not necessarily secure. The Royal Bank
of Scotland plc does not accept responsibility for changes made to this
message after it was sent.

Whilst all reasonable care has been taken to avoid the transmission of
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transmission, opening or use of this message and any attachments will not
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Royal Bank of Scotland plc in this regard and the recipient should carry out
such virus and other checks as it considers appropriate.


From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct  9 02:39:35 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 02:39:35 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] IBIS to Pspice
References: <027a01c38dad$5cf87030$6702a8c0@cris>
Message-ID: <000701c38dfd$d24e6060$a376b9d9@debitel.net>

>I am trying to convert IBIS files to Pspice V8.0 files and is not working.
>I am using IBIT2SPICE program : http://www.intusoft.com/utilities.htm
>Is impossible to import the files what i made with this program in Pspice.
>Can you please help me with this problem?

If you're using a program from Intusoft, I guess you're creating
Intusoft Spice models, not PSpice models. As long as you're
working with generic Spice netlists, both programs can read them.
But as soon as you're using either Intusoft's, or Microsim's own
behavioral models, or other proprietary stuff, they are not
compatible.

JH.




From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Thu Oct  9 03:08:28 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:08:28 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGELECDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <BBAA031B.10A56%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

MM Prefix, I ~think~ That this means

Motorola

Metal

(as opposed to MP for Motorola Plastic)

If you can find a 2N5837
or a later PN5837  it should be pretty darn close!

Good Luck!

Cynthia


on 10/8/03 5:29 PM, Ray Wilson at rayw at csd.net wrote:

> Hi yasi
> 
> I couldn't find the MM5837 anywhere. Often when you find that a chip is
> un-findable it is probably a good idea to find another way to accomplish the
> goal or else when your totally cool circuit goes kaput finding a replacement
> only gets harder and finally impossible.
> 
> If all you want is noise check this out.
> 
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Ray
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of yasi perera
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 3:29 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
> 
> 
> Hi,
> just wondering if anybody knows where to get some (~25) mm5837's.
> 
> thanks,
> yasi perera
> 


From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Thu Oct  9 03:24:01 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 19:24:01 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] CA3084
In-Reply-To: <20031008192344.DCYB24177.tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.2
 26.175.18]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031008191205.00a8d8c8@127.0.0.1>

At 01:23 PM 10/8/2003, dreichert at sympatico.ca wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Could anyone possibly tell me where I could find a data sheet (or at least 
>a pinout diagram) for the CA3084 PNP transistor array? My Google search 
>turned up nothing.
>
>Thanks,
>Dave

Dave --

Here is the pinout:

Q5/Q6 Darlington -- P1 is Q5 base, P2 is Q6 emitter, P3 is collectors

Q1 -- P6 is base, P7 is emitter, P8 is collector

Q2 -- P9 is base, P10 is emitter, P11 is collector

Q3/Q4 mirror pair -- P5 is common base, P13 is common emitter, P12 is Q3 
collector, P14 is      Q4 collector

D1 -- parallels Q4/Q3 EB junctions

substrate -- P4

   Ian


From Mididood at aol.com  Thu Oct  9 04:20:38 2003
From: Mididood at aol.com (Mididood at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:20:38 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
Message-ID: <e6.3fc41599.2cb61ff6@aol.com>

Rene,

Thanks for putting that site together - It was really a treat to all those 
synths that, I'm guessing, few others outside the country have ever seen!  

I'd love to play some of those too!  It would probably be an interesting 
exercise in programming or patching when you can't read the knob/switch function!

Thanks again,

Roger
USA-Chicago
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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Thu Oct  9 04:52:55 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:52:55 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
References: <200310081950.h98JomWg007663@correo.direccion.com>
Message-ID: <3F84CD86.40CC73B9@prodigy.net>

In general, I find no problem with unshielded cables except for VCA and VCF
inputs.  These can pick up hum, etc, especially when you put your hand on them.

I'm using 1/8" jacks... most of them with a single unshielded conductor... but
if I need
a shielded one I have those too...

H^) harry

Fernando de Izuzquiza wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Wondering about risks of using non-shielded cable for patching.
> Crosstalk? EMI? RFI?, where is the "danger"?
> Planning to use 4mm banana cabling but not shure of potential problems,
> mostly for audio signals but also for CV.
>
> Imagine a 3 or 4 rack frames modular, each 12U, so lots of modules. Heavily
> patched. Cords interpatching frames too. One PSU per frame at about 1 meter
> away in the floor.
> What happens if all cables are 4mm banana patchcords? (except output cables
> to amps)
>
> How much will the audio and CV signals suffer, degrade or be prone to
> interference, etc?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fernando
>
> <br><br>
> Direccion.com<br>
> ________________________________________________<br>
> This
> mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0


From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct  9 05:34:31 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:34:31 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
In-Reply-To: <BBAA031B.10A56%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
References: <BBAA031B.10A56%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3F84D747.2010309@ix.netcom.com>

The MM5837 has long been out of production - Its was made by National 
Semiconductor.
It is a pseudo-random white noise generator in an 8 pin DIP.
It was used for the 'snare' sound for alot of home organs, and in some 
commercial synths.

Perhaps you can retrofit an alternate noise generator to an 8 pin header.
It will have to run off of Gnd and V-.

The MM5837 had a unique sound - you can hear the sequence repeat every 
second...
ffffffftffffffftffffffftffffffft...


Cynthia Webster wrote:

>MM Prefix, I ~think~ That this means
>
>Motorola
>
>Metal
>
>(as opposed to MP for Motorola Plastic)
>
>If you can find a 2N5837
>or a later PN5837  it should be pretty darn close!
>
>Good Luck!
>
>Cynthia
>
>
>on 10/8/03 5:29 PM, Ray Wilson at rayw at csd.net wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi yasi
>>
>>I couldn't find the MM5837 anywhere. Often when you find that a chip is
>>un-findable it is probably a good idea to find another way to accomplish the
>>goal or else when your totally cool circuit goes kaput finding a replacement
>>only gets harder and finally impossible.
>>
>>If all you want is noise check this out.
>>
>>http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>Ray
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of yasi perera
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 3:29 AM
>>To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
>>
>>
>>Hi,
>>just wondering if anybody knows where to get some (~25) mm5837's.
>>
>>thanks,
>>yasi perera
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Oren Leavitt
oleavitt at ix.netcom.com




From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Thu Oct  9 05:57:18 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:57:18 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Analog Storage and Speech Synthesis 
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCKEOGCFAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

Ok friends I know that I am a pest , but this is a couple of links that
answer a few posts from several weeks ago.

I had been contemplating using an EEPROM to store analog data, but I did not
have the time to get into it. It appears that this company has been doing
that for quite a while. It is not digital storage. Of course the fidelity is
not premium either, but I am sure that someone will figure out a way of
hacking it into submission. I am sure that this thing can be used to store
CV sequences that can be played back at a later time. This might be a really
cool thing with a little input and output scaling.

In addition they have a nice range of Speech Synthesis Ic's.


http://www.isd.com/ The current site


http://www.ee.washington.edu/conselec/CE/sp95reports/farber/edrtcl.htm Old
Descriptive Article
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From patchell at cox.net  Thu Oct  9 06:35:28 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:35:28 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
In-Reply-To: <LAW12-F12nqqKgWRjfX00024d98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031008212857.018c27f0@pop.west.cox.net>

What does the part do....what I can tell you is that this is a National 
Semiconductor Part...

Is this the noise generator?.....

If so, you probably won't find any...and a good thing too, because they 
were not very good parts...
If you really need a noise generator, you can build a really nice one in a 
CPLD for a lot cheaper....

And better...if this is the part I am thinking of, the PRN sequence they 
used was so short you could here it quite plainly.

At 02:29 AM 10/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi,
>just wondering if anybody knows where to get some (~25) mm5837's.
>
>thanks,
>yasi perera
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Help protect your PC.  Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. 
>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From patchell at cox.net  Thu Oct  9 06:39:36 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:39:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] VGA driver info
In-Reply-To: <032f01c38d99$011a7650$a45e23c0@dilwyn>
References: <AMEHLEGDICECIDLKKHDHEEODCKAA.np@inverse-entertainment.de>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031008213819.018d5ea8@pop.west.cox.net>

Hey...at least the newest version of Xilinx ISE (version 6.1) you can now 
combine Verilog and VHDL into the same design...

At 01:37 PM 10/8/2003 +0100, Paul Maddox wrote:
>Nils,
>
> > Since you use an FPGA, have you considered this one?
> > http://www.opencores.org/projects/vga_lcd/
> >
> > It's an opensource FPGA code for a vga and lcd controller. OpenCores.org
> > also has lots of other interesting codes.
>
>yeah I had a look at it, and its a bit of a case of 'sledgehammer and nut'..
>I've also tried to read the spec (PDF) a few times, only to get more
>confused each time.
>Add to this I've all of my FPGA work in VHDL, not verilog and its pretty
>confusing :-)
>
>Paul

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From pi0say at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  9 08:34:12 2003
From: pi0say at hotmail.com (yasi perera)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 23:34:12 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
Message-ID: <Law12-F1033TfzsH4y100029cd6@hotmail.com>

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies
My buchla 266 uses the 5837, and always sounded nice to me, so I thought I'd 
see if I could come up with any for a new project I'm working on. Ended up 
finding some 2n4403's that sound pretty nice for my application.

Thanks again,
yasi perera

_________________________________________________________________
Instant message with integrated webcam using MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now 
FREE!  http://msnmessenger-download.com


From peter.ullrich at kapsch.net  Thu Oct  9 08:38:22 2003
From: peter.ullrich at kapsch.net (Ullrich Peter)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:38:22 +0200
Subject: AW: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
Message-ID: <7106E489D7E9DE44B3FDA28A4ECB227601014B67@PUMBAA.kapsch.co.at>

Other solutions:

http://home.att.net/~theremin1/Circuit_Library/digitalnoisegen.html
http://www.imagineeringezine.com/PDF-FILES/noisegen.pdf

and there was a small circuit in Popular electronics. I have scans of this
imitated circuit if you want.

And I have the datasheet of the MM5837 if you want.

Ciao
Peter

        \|/
       (o o)
--oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------------------------
                   Ing. Peter Ullrich   
	            Hardware & Software Developer  /  Electronic Musician
	            Kapsch TrafficCom AG                 Vienna / Austria
	            http://www.kapsch-trafficcom.com/
	            -----------------------------------------------------
	            *Tel:  +43 (0)50 811 2265   
	            * Fax:  +43 (0)-50 811 2209
	            *EFax: +43 (0)50 811 992265
   .oooO           *Email: mailto:peter.ullrich at kapsch.net
   (   )   Oooo.   ----------------------------------------------------
    \ (    (   )   Private Homepage: http://www.ullrich.at.tt
-----\_)----) /--------------------------------------------------------
           (_/

This e-mail and any attachment and the included information are confidential,
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From cris at music-service.nl  Thu Oct  9 09:39:55 2003
From: cris at music-service.nl (cris at music-service.nl)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:39:55 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] IBIS to Pspice
References: <027a01c38dad$5cf87030$6702a8c0@cris> <000701c38dfd$d24e6060$a376b9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c38e38$887927a0$6702a8c0@cris>

Thanks for replay,

what soft do you recomand to convert the IBIS to PSPICE models????

Cris
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
To: <cris at music-service.nl>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] IBIS to Pspice


> >I am trying to convert IBIS files to Pspice V8.0 files and is not
working.
> >I am using IBIT2SPICE program : http://www.intusoft.com/utilities.htm
> >Is impossible to import the files what i made with this program in
Pspice.
> >Can you please help me with this problem?
>
> If you're using a program from Intusoft, I guess you're creating
> Intusoft Spice models, not PSpice models. As long as you're
> working with generic Spice netlists, both programs can read them.
> But as soon as you're using either Intusoft's, or Microsim's own
> behavioral models, or other proprietary stuff, they are not
> compatible.
>
> JH.
>
>
>
>
>
>



From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Thu Oct  9 10:29:50 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:29:50 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EF4@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Like all things in life, this depends.
It depends on your environmental situation.
Giving a general answer would perhaps simply end
as an endless/pointless e-mail debate.

There are areas with very high E and H fields,
like obviously my flat 8-<.
I see FM radio, 50 Hz and harmonics, and 16 2/3 Hz
and harmonics (railway 40 m away).
And of course my computer monitor with ~70 Hz
plus harmonics and ~ 17kHz plus harmonics.
And some higher pitched stuff radiation from some
ribbon data cable...
In my room the oscilloscope (1M impedance) 
shows 20-40mV pp noise if I stick a 5cm aluminum
ball to the probe tip.
I think the electric field can be computed from this.

And there may be other areas (rural) which are quite
clean in this respect.

It also depends on input/output impedances.
If output impedances are low the magnetic coupling
will be more prominent. In the other case the
electric field stuff will show more.
This is why a guitar amp input (arround 1Meg)
will certainly only work with shielded cable.
(guitar has not such a low amplitude, at least the way
I slam it ;->)


The next thing it depends on is your ears.
How much noise do you tolerate?

And then it depends on the application.
Example: my VCR will have some 16kHz speakthrough
to the audio jacks. If I want to record a sample
from TV, it is at first no problem in most situations.
But if this sample is processed by pitch shifting, modulation processes
etc etc. the noise can no longer be tolerated. It gets very prominent.
In this case I can not change the "antenna" situation,
so I have to clean up the sample with a sharp FIR notch
filter I programmed for this purpose.

Another problem is that noise above 20kHz or so can disturb
some older A/D converter gear. Some old DAT machines,
or portable DAT machines have no oversampling, so the
high pitched noise will appear as nasty alias...

Of course, cleaning up is always 2nd choice, and works
only for narrow band noise.


So , if you or your system are/is picky and if you want that your system
runs clean under all situations (moving house),
shielded cable has some point.

Oh, you can do it the other way as well:

Use unshielded wire, and shield you room.
Wire netting material should do the trick
up to several MHz, but not for low freq. H fields.

Yes, I'm very picky about noise.

m.c.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Fernando de
> Izuzquiza
> Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2003 23:50
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Wondering about risks of using non-shielded cable for patching.
> Crosstalk? EMI? RFI?, where is the "danger"?
> Planning to use 4mm banana cabling but not shure of potential 
> problems,
> mostly for audio signals but also for CV.
> 
> Imagine a 3 or 4 rack frames modular, each 12U, so lots of 
> modules. Heavily
> patched. Cords interpatching frames too. One PSU per frame at 
> about 1 meter
> away in the floor.
> What happens if all cables are 4mm banana patchcords? (except 
> output cables
> to amps)
> 
> How much will the audio and CV signals suffer, degrade or be prone to
> interference, etc?
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Fernando
> 
> 
> <br><br>
> Direccion.com<br>
> ________________________________________________<br>
> This
> mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0
> 
> 


From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct  9 10:46:23 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:46:23 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] IBIS to Pspice
References: <027a01c38dad$5cf87030$6702a8c0@cris> <000701c38dfd$d24e6060$a376b9d9@debitel.net> <004b01c38e38$887927a0$6702a8c0@cris>
Message-ID: <000f01c38e41$d2d99880$587fb9d9@debitel.net>

> what soft do you recomand to convert the IBIS to PSPICE models????

I don't know - never did it.

I just have worked with both, Intusoft Spice and PSpice (the former many
years ago,
the latter still), and I know that they were in direct competition with one
another,
so it would be very unlikely that their utility tools would be anywhere near
to compatible.

JH.



From tania.gallagher at pandora.be  Thu Oct  9 12:08:47 2003
From: tania.gallagher at pandora.be (tania gallagher)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:08:47 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
In-Reply-To: <e6.3fc41599.2cb61ff6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BBAB004F.E4B%tania.gallagher@pandora.be>


this is also a nice site about the polivoks,with a panel lay out pdf that
helped me a lot when i got mine.

http://www.geocities.com/rusynth/polivoks.htm

someone here mentioned its design was based on the moog prodigy, wich might
be true,i dont know, but i can say that these are very different synths
alltogether.

If you look around you can still get them..i bought mine about 3 weeks ago
for 500 Euro. Its a very robust machine,built like a tank.Only thing you
have to look out for is sticky keys. its prone to that and it?s not as easy
to fix as one might think.

bart





Rene,

Thanks for putting that site together - It was really a treat to all those
synths that, I'm guessing, few others outside the country have ever seen!

I'd love to play some of those too!  It would probably be an interesting
exercise in programming or patching when you can't read the knob/switch
function!

Thanks again,

Roger
USA-Chicago 


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From cris at music-service.nl  Thu Oct  9 12:26:44 2003
From: cris at music-service.nl (cris at music-service.nl)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:26:44 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] IBIS to Pspice
References: <027a01c38dad$5cf87030$6702a8c0@cris> <000701c38dfd$d24e6060$a376b9d9@debitel.net> <004b01c38e38$887927a0$6702a8c0@cris> <000f01c38e41$d2d99880$587fb9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <01dd01c38e4f$d62c1680$6702a8c0@cris>

Do you now the difference between the Pspice .slb files and the IBIS .ibs
files?
the .ibs files contains models or only the pin propertis?
i mannage to import some files but i don't know if is right, i need to find
some examples
Cris
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
To: <cris at music-service.nl>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] IBIS to Pspice


> > what soft do you recomand to convert the IBIS to PSPICE models????
>
> I don't know - never did it.
>
> I just have worked with both, Intusoft Spice and PSpice (the former many
> years ago,
> the latter still), and I know that they were in direct competition with
one
> another,
> so it would be very unlikely that their utility tools would be anywhere
near
> to compatible.
>
> JH.
>
>
>
>



From modular at go2.pl  Thu Oct  9 13:09:47 2003
From: modular at go2.pl (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Roman?=)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:09:47 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Re:=20Re:=20[sdiy]=20polivoks=20filter?=
Message-ID: <20031009100947.4A5658AA3E@rekin4.o2.pl>

well...
I have a polivox and I don't find it as a big deal.
It makes unrepeatable squeaky, dirty noises, but so
many other gear does that too.
It's bulky and heavy, has ugly big knobs and manufacturing
quality is poor. And mine has the most important component
missing - the plate with name "polivokc"

any takers? ;-)
not that I want to sell it, but if I get a minimoog for it
I'll consider :-P

Roman

---- Wiadomo?? Oryginalna ----
Od: Mididood at aol.com
Do: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de 
Kopia do: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Data: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:20:38 EDT
Temat: Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter

Rene,

Thanks for putting that site together - It was really a treat to all those synths that, I'm guessing, few others outside the country have ever seen!  

I'd love to play some of those too!  It would probably be an interesting exercise in programming or patching when you can't read the knob/switch function!

Thanks again,

Roger
USA-Chicago 


From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct  9 13:52:35 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 9 Oct 2003 13:52:35 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] 1N5228 anybody?
In-Reply-To: <20031009100947.4A5658AA3E@rekin4.o2.pl>
References: <20031009100947.4A5658AA3E@rekin4.o2.pl>
Message-ID: <1065700355.3f854c03b085d@www.debitel.net>

Hi,

I'm looking for a 1N5228 diode.

Can't get it in Germany, but seems to be
a quite common part in the USA.

Is there anyone who has a few of these
in the drawer, and could sell me some?
5 pieces would be good, 10 would be better.
I will gladly cover your expenses - paypal,
if you like. I just need these diodes quickly
and without much overhead. Maybe sending them
in an airmail letter?

Of course, if anyone knows a source in Germany,
I would be happy, too.

Thanks in anvance,

JH.


PS: I don't need a different 3.9V zener; must be exactly
    the 1N5228.

PSPS: Yes, Buchla.

-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct  9 13:56:12 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 9 Oct 2003 13:56:12 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] IBIS to Pspice
In-Reply-To: <01dd01c38e4f$d62c1680$6702a8c0@cris>
References: <027a01c38dad$5cf87030$6702a8c0@cris> <000701c38dfd$d24e6060$a376b9d9@debitel.net> <004b01c38e38$887927a0$6702a8c0@cris> <000f01c38e41$d2d99880$587fb9d9@debitel.net> <01dd01c38e4f$d62c1680$6702a8c0@cris>
Message-ID: <1065700572.3f854cdc720e6@www.debitel.net>



> Do you now the difference between the Pspice .slb files and the IBIS .ibs
> files?

I'm afraid I don't. As I said, I worked with the simulators,
but didn't do much with libraries and utilities.

JH.


-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp  Thu Oct  9 16:35:41 2003
From: houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp (houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:35:41 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Soviet synth filters (Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter)
References: <Pine.GSO.4.50.0310082204430.16706-100000@userv1> <3F847C49.1040807@uni-bonn.de> <3F848955.3@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <200310091435.XAA10336@bgsv8168.tk.mesh.ad.jp>

Hello Rene and List,

Some schematics of the Soviet synth site are very interesting.
Polivoks filter looks 2 pole ARP style not Moog.

The most interesting schematics for me are Sallen-Key-like 
transitor-ladder filters!

  http://www.ruskeys.net/pasp/alisa1377/c/alisxem.jpg
  http://www.ruskeys.net/pasp/alisa1387/c/alisxem2.jpg

Thanks a lot for the information, Rene!

Sam Hoshuyama

> Hi again,
> 
> Also there is some more info (including schematics) available at 
> http://www.ruskeys.net/eng/base/polivoks.php
> 
> Cheers,
>   Ren
> -- 
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> 
> 
> 
> 


From P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com  Thu Oct  9 16:48:39 2003
From: P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com (Paul Maddox)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:48:39 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Off on holiday
Message-ID: <036f01c38e74$6d48bd60$a45e23c0@dilwyn>

Dear all,

 I'm off for a while (until the 28th, wohoo!)
so I'm unsubscrirbing, see you all when I get back!

Paul
P.s. I update the PolyDAC page lastnight

--------------------------------------------------------------
Modulus Synthesisers ;-
    Http://www.Modulus.Synth.net/


From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct  9 17:02:33 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 9 Oct 2003 17:02:33 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] 1N5228 - thank you!
In-Reply-To: <1065700355.3f854c03b085d@www.debitel.net>
References: <20031009100947.4A5658AA3E@rekin4.o2.pl> <1065700355.3f854c03b085d@www.debitel.net>
Message-ID: <1065711753.3f8578896c4eb@www.debitel.net>

A friendly soul from the list has already promised to send them.
No more offers needed - Thank you!

JH.



> Hi,
> 
> I'm looking for a 1N5228 diode.
> 
> Can't get it in Germany, but seems to be
> a quite common part in the USA.
> 
> Is there anyone who has a few of these
> in the drawer, and could sell me some?
> 5 pieces would be good, 10 would be better.
> I will gladly cover your expenses - paypal,
> if you like. I just need these diodes quickly
> and without much overhead. Maybe sending them
> in an airmail letter?
> 
> Of course, if anyone knows a source in Germany,
> I would be happy, too.
> 
> Thanks in anvance,
> 
> JH.
> 
> 
> PS: I don't need a different 3.9V zener; must be exactly
>     the 1N5228.
> 
> PSPS: Yes, Buchla.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> debitel.net Webmail
> 
> 




-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From geoff at prince2003.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Oct  9 19:16:30 2003
From: geoff at prince2003.freeserve.co.uk (Geoff Prince)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:16:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] New Digisound Modular resource site
Message-ID: <000201c38e9e$2c2f9a40$c2434e51@geoff>

Well done that man!
This excellent synth deserves a dedicated archive and the efforts of Charles Blakey should not be forgotten.
Six months ago I dug my Digisound out of the attic and have been refurbishing, modifying and adding to it (it's humming away in the background as I speak). My enthusiasm is stronger than ever and mostly due to the sdiy community.
So, WELL DONE DAVE.

~Geoff Prince~
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From aaron at receive-transmit.com  Thu Oct  9 21:46:38 2003
From: aaron at receive-transmit.com (Aaron Day)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:46:38 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] logic module
Message-ID: <4C32DAA5-FA91-11D7-BBF1-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>

Greetings-

I am looking for some recommendations/references for an interesting 
logic/control module to build.

I have a fair mix of MOTM and Oakley modules that are now being 
controlled by 2xACS TM-116 sequencers. The sequencers are quite nice 
and although I've just scraped the surface of their functionality I 
know that I'd like to build some sort of device that can do some 
counting and/or decision making for me. i.e. a counter + XOR or a 
series of primitive counters that will wait until the n gate high 
before sending a bang. I know that there is a Serge module that did 
some freaky divisions by odd numbers but any other suggestions would be 
welcome.

Best,

ad
_____________________
Receive-Transmit
Marienburgerstr. 33
10405 Berlin
Germany
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www.receive-transmit.com
+49 030.231.80965
+49 179.750.1854


From synthos at xs4all.nl  Thu Oct  9 22:13:24 2003
From: synthos at xs4all.nl (Dave Krooshof)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:13:24 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
In-Reply-To: <3F84CD86.40CC73B9@prodigy.net>
References: <200310081950.h98JomWg007663@correo.direccion.com>
 <3F84CD86.40CC73B9@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <p05100303bbab6e7e1cd1@[10.0.0.158]>

The analogue studio at www.koncon.nl where I studied, the famous BEA5,
which is basically one wall of analogue synth (4 by 2 meters) 1.5 wall of
tapemachines, and a 1 by 1.5 meter sequencer, uses only banana jacks.
It might have some extra bonus points in this discussion as it originated
in the 'synth' philips gave to Varese for Poem Electronique...

They did use a few tricks to get less disturbance though.

I use 1/8" jacks too, but the shield is only connected to one of the plugs.
Reason: no ground loops, yes shielding.

The connector flamewar, however, was won by the guy who uses
jacks for inputs, bananas for outputs.
Reason 1: This way, you can't confuse in- and outputs (one shouldn't
connect outputs)
Reason 2: you can stack banana plugs in outputs (it's OK to route outputs
to various inputs but you shouldn't do that with inputs, as you connect
outputs in doing so. See reason 1.)
Reason 3: Shielding is bound to be connected to one side only.

(reason 4 might be that as long as this isn't a standard, your patchcables
are not very likely to end up being patched into other peoples synths.)


groets,

_          >^v<        _

website http://www.dendriet.nl


>In general, I find no problem with unshielded cables except for VCA and VCF
>inputs.  These can pick up hum, etc, especially when you put your 
>hand on them.
>
>I'm using 1/8" jacks... most of them with a single unshielded conductor... but
>if I need
>a shielded one I have those too...
>
>H^) harry
>
>Fernando de Izuzquiza wrote:
>
>>  Hi all,
>>
>>  Wondering about risks of using non-shielded cable for patching.
>>  Crosstalk? EMI? RFI?, where is the "danger"?
>>  Planning to use 4mm banana cabling but not shure of potential problems,
>>  mostly for audio signals but also for CV.
>>
>>  Imagine a 3 or 4 rack frames modular, each 12U, so lots of modules. Heavily
>>  patched. Cords interpatching frames too. One PSU per frame at about 1 meter
>>  away in the floor.
>>  What happens if all cables are 4mm banana patchcords? (except output cables
>>  to amps)
>>
>>  How much will the audio and CV signals suffer, degrade or be prone to
>>  interference, etc?
>>
>>  Thank you,
>>
>>  Fernando
>>
>>  <br><br>
>>  Direccion.com<br>
>>  ________________________________________________<br>
>>  This
>>  mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0

-- 


From s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk  Thu Oct  9 22:48:12 2003
From: s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk (s.thomas)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:48:12 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] New Digisound Modular resource site
References: <000201c38e9e$2c2f9a40$c2434e51@geoff>
Message-ID: <005201c38ea6$ad602320$eefa0250@tardis>

Hi ..yeah ditto here. I got a small Digisound modular I bought off someone 6 months back, which is only partially built. . It came with a 
large folder of  construction notes..but also a bunch of personal letters that Charles Blakey had written to this previous owner .. helping him (in great detail in some cases) with certain aspects of construction.  He must of been a real enthusiast..though peops who met him say you could mistake him for a bank manager or school headmaster!
Great Site..keep it going..I'll certainly make use of it when I start on completing/refurbishing my modules. 
steve thomas  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Geoff Prince 
  To: synth-diy 
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:16 PM
  Subject: RE: [sdiy] New Digisound Modular resource site


  Well done that man!
  This excellent synth deserves a dedicated archive and the efforts of Charles Blakey should not be forgotten.
  Six months ago I dug my Digisound out of the attic and have been refurbishing, modifying and adding to it (it's humming away in the background as I speak). My enthusiasm is stronger than ever and mostly due to the sdiy community.
  So, WELL DONE DAVE.

  ~Geoff Prince~
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From jloffink at austin.rr.com  Fri Oct 10 00:17:14 2003
From: jloffink at austin.rr.com (John Loffink)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:17:14 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] logic module
In-Reply-To: <4C32DAA5-FA91-11D7-BBF1-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>
Message-ID: <003401c38eb3$18c96d90$220110ac@john>

Try Ken Stone's CGS site for interesting logic and counter modules.  It is
fairly easy to get MOTM panels for these either through Stooge Panels Inc.
or Front Panel Express.

http://www.cgs.synth.net/

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:owner-synth-
> I am looking for some recommendations/references for an interesting
> logic/control module to build.
> 
> I have a fair mix of MOTM and Oakley modules that are now being
> controlled by 2xACS TM-116 sequencers. The sequencers are quite nice
> and although I've just scraped the surface of their functionality I
> know that I'd like to build some sort of device that can do some
> counting and/or decision making for me. i.e. a counter + XOR or a
> series of primitive counters that will wait until the n gate high
> before sending a bang. I know that there is a Serge module that did
> some freaky divisions by odd numbers but any other suggestions would be
> welcome.
> 
> Best,
> 



From karldalen at yahoo.se  Fri Oct 10 02:40:29 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:40:29 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGELECDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <20031010004029.89302.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com>

I can find it everywhere!

For example this:

http://mohodisco.com/monopoly/pdf/mm5837.pdf 
http://www.chipdocs.com/pndecoder/datasheets/NSC/MM5837.html 

Interesting noise generator page and meaurements including the mm5837.

http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM

and so on and on and on! :-)

BTW the MM5837 are also known as the "catchunka" generator!
It repeats its shiftregister noise at intervalls, a second or 
so making it a hopeless cirquit, YET it has ben used in 
synthesisers from the past such as P5,Source, Chroma!

KD

--- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> skrev: > Hi yasi
> 
> I couldn't find the MM5837 anywhere. Often when you find that a chip is
> un-findable it is probably a good idea to find another way to accomplish
> the
> goal or else when your totally cool circuit goes kaput finding a
> replacement
> only gets harder and finally impossible.
> 
> If all you want is noise check this out.
> 
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Ray
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of yasi perera
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 3:29 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
> 
> 
> Hi,
> just wondering if anybody knows where to get some (~25) mm5837's.
> 
> thanks,
> yasi perera
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help protect your PC.  Get a FREE computer virus scan online from
> McAfee.
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Fri Oct 10 02:58:42 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:58:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
In-Reply-To: <3F847C49.1040807@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <20031010005842.11784.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>

Interesting filter design, it dosent use any integrating capacitors!!

KD
 

--- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > Hi Sven,
> 
> > Somewhere i read about the Polivoks, a russian synth, and it's filter.
> > Could someone please point me to a schematic of this filter??
> 
> I have those. The polyvox is in essence a clone of the moog prodigy
> IIRC. I've posted them here: 
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/polivoks/index.html
> 
> Cheers,
>   Ren?
> 
> -- 
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> 
> 
> 
>  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From xyzzy at sysabend.org  Fri Oct 10 03:13:33 2003
From: xyzzy at sysabend.org (Tom Arnold)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:13:33 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <20031010004029.89302.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGELECDAA.rayw@csd.net> <20031010004029.89302.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031010011333.GC94744@moo.sysabend.org>

Unicorn Electronics has the MM5837 apparently in some quantity.
http://www.unicornelectronics.com/GENERATORS.html

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  - 
 - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          -
 - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       - 
 --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" -


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Fri Oct 10 04:27:50 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 22:27:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGELECDAA.rayw@csd.net> <20031010004029.89302.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <20031010011333.GC94744@moo.sysabend.org>
Message-ID: <3F861926.D170C63F@prodigy.net>

Hahaha....

and to think I was gonna put mine on e-bay...  I figure since mine was from
a Prophet V it should be worth about ten times what a stock MM5837 is
worth...

(in other words... nothing :^)

Its a useless chip. It IS only good for something like room equalization,
where the
consistancy and repeatable noise MEANS something good.

Its easy to see why the production departments wanted this chip, but how on
earth could
any manufacturer (ESP Sequential Circuits P5 - about $3,400 new) possibly
consider
that their customers would be satisfied.

Every manufacturer who put this in a synth had to offer a replacement.  May
those who
specified the MM3837 rot in hell - pssht - rot in hell - pssht - rot in hell
- pssht   ;^P

H^) harry

Tom Arnold wrote:

> Unicorn Electronics has the MM5837 apparently in some quantity.
> http://www.unicornelectronics.com/GENERATORS.html
>
> --
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  -
>  - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          -
>  - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       -
>  --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" -


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Fri Oct 10 04:39:48 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 22:39:48 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EF4@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <3F861BF3.BBEFC7B7@prodigy.net>

Czech Martin wrote:

<snip>

> Oh, you can do it the other way as well:
>
> Use unshielded wire, and shield you room.
> Wire netting material should do the trick
> up to several MHz, but not for low freq. H fields.

No problemo. You just have to shield the room with Mu Metal (a nickel, iron,
copper
and molybdenum alloy),  Even a thin, continuous wrap around the whole room
should do it.
Of course it would be tough to get inside the room after that, so maybe two
concentric
rooms, with the material aligned at 90 degree axis might be more practical.

Failing this, good old steel could be used. In the past I've found even 12ga
(heavy) steel
is not totally impervious to those pesky H fields.... But its a start...
<bfg>

Maybe a better solution would be to build your studio underground in an old
iron mine ???

(just kidding folks... Mu metal is great stuff... but very expensive and you
can't bend it
easily around corners without destroying the effectiveness of the shielding
unless you
heat treat afterwards.   Once I tried to shield an ARP Avitar pickup with
mu-metal.
BIG mistake... the magnetic field was SO well reduced that the internal
magnets did not
sense the strings anymore... Live and learn :^)

H^) harry

>
>
> Yes, I'm very picky about noise.
>
> m.c.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Fernando de
> > Izuzquiza
> > Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2003 23:50
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Wondering about risks of using non-shielded cable for patching.
> > Crosstalk? EMI? RFI?, where is the "danger"?
> > Planning to use 4mm banana cabling but not shure of potential
> > problems,
> > mostly for audio signals but also for CV.
> >
> > Imagine a 3 or 4 rack frames modular, each 12U, so lots of
> > modules. Heavily
> > patched. Cords interpatching frames too. One PSU per frame at
> > about 1 meter
> > away in the floor.
> > What happens if all cables are 4mm banana patchcords? (except
> > output cables
> > to amps)
> >
> > How much will the audio and CV signals suffer, degrade or be prone to
> > interference, etc?
> >
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Fernando
> >
> >
> > <br><br>
> > Direccion.com<br>
> > ________________________________________________<br>
> > This
> > mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0
> >
> >


From cornutt at hiwaay.net  Fri Oct 10 05:49:58 2003
From: cornutt at hiwaay.net (David Cornutt)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:49:58 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <3F861926.D170C63F@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <D1AD5A9D-FAD4-11D7-9877-0003938E2F50@hiwaay.net>


On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 09:27  PM, harrybissell wrote:

>
> Its a useless chip. It IS only good for something like room 
> equalization,
> where the
> consistancy and repeatable noise MEANS something good.
>
I don't know the history, but I'm guessing this IC was never intended
for musical uses.  If it could run at a high enough frequency, it would
have been the perfect thing for spread-spectrum radio.


From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Fri Oct 10 05:52:58 2003
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:52:58 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] non shield cable
Message-ID: <1cf.124b302c.2cb7871a@aol.com>


In a message dated 10/9/03 8:11:17 PM, harrybissell at prodigy.net writes:

<< Once I tried to shield an ARP Avitar pickup with mu-metal.  BIG mistake... 
the magnetic field was SO well reduced that the internal magnets did not 
sense the strings anymore... Live and learn :^) >>

That's why all the Roland hex pickups are humbuckers.  Teeny, tiny little 
humbuckers.  They held a patent on that for a while (from the late 1970's until 
whenever it expired), which made it tough for any other company to comepete in 
that arena.

Michael Bacich


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Fri Oct 10 05:55:17 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 23:55:17 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
References: <D1AD5A9D-FAD4-11D7-9877-0003938E2F50@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <3F862DA4.69E68DCA@prodigy.net>

Hmmm.... data book says

features
- uniform noise density
- uniform noise amplitude
- eliminates noise preamps
- self contained oscillator
-single component insertion

applications

- Electronic musical rhythm instrument sound generators
- Music synthesizer white and pink noise generators
- Room acoustics testing/equalization

So the suits love it for that "single component insertion" and by the time
its designed
in and someone actually LISTENS to the little piece of sh!t... its too
late.

I'd agree that for percussive noises, you might not notice the warts... and
the Room acoustics
use is actually good

I wonder if Bob Pease knows anything about this chip ?  Maybe we could get
some history :^P

H^) harry

David Cornutt wrote:

> On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 09:27  PM, harrybissell wrote:
>
> >
> > Its a useless chip. It IS only good for something like room
> > equalization,
> > where the
> > consistancy and repeatable noise MEANS something good.
> >
> I don't know the history, but I'm guessing this IC was never intended
> for musical uses.  If it could run at a high enough frequency, it would
> have been the perfect thing for spread-spectrum radio.


From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Fri Oct 10 06:01:17 2003
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:01:17 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
Message-ID: <127.3239219a.2cb7890d@aol.com>


In a message dated 10/9/03 6:04:03 PM, karldalen at yahoo.se writes:

<< Interesting filter design, it dosent use any integrating capacitors!! >>

Yeah, that's a little strange.  I'm assuming you're looking at the schematic 
labeled  sch_polivoks7-vcf.jpg

Maybe those "K1404" (I'm not able to make out all the letters) IC's have 
capacitors internal to them (even though they just look like garden-variety 
3080's).

If you look at the other set of Polivoks schems that were posted, you'll see 
that they have what appears to be a two-pole version of a Moog Ladder filter.  
All discrete parts.  Those drawings were named "alisxem.jpg" and 
"alisxem2.jpg".  I don't remember where they were posted, but it was in a message that 
came through the list yesterday.

Michael Bacich


From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Fri Oct 10 06:12:26 2003
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:12:26 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
Message-ID: <ce.3e4b9db2.2cb78baa@aol.com>

I'm guessing that the majority of MM5837's were sold to drum machine makers.  
That is, organ manufacturers who had beat boxes built into their organs 
(Thomas, Lowery, etc.).  If you're just using it to make "snare drum" and "hi hat" 
noise, with short little decay envelopes, then the cyclic pattern repetition 
would not be much of an annoyance.  On the other hand, in synths?  Shame on 
Moog, Sequential, and everyone else who wussed out and used those in their synths 
instead of amplifying selected noise transistors.

Michael Bacich


From julian at 22host24.com  Fri Oct 10 12:20:17 2003
From: julian at 22host24.com (Julian)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:20:17 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for individual parts of the Eurorack enclosures...
References: <ce.3e4b9db2.2cb78baa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003001c38f18$1a0e07a0$8b4a9bd9@erzulie>

Hi there,

Im looking to swap the enclosure of my modular, and am having no problem
finding suitable mounting rails for the eurorack type enclosures, as used by
analogue systems, analogue solutions, and doepfer, but the ears to bolt the
rails to the rack itself dont seem to be availible sepperatly anywhere,
which seems somewhat odd...

Theyre not just plain right angle aluminum strip (which i will use
otherwise, but itll leave gaps).


Anyone know anywhere that supplies the full range of parts, preferably in
the uk?

Cheers, julian


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Fri Oct 10 13:31:44 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:31:44 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
In-Reply-To: <20031010005842.11784.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031010005842.11784.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3F8698A0.9010009@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Karl,

Karl Dalen wrote:
> Interesting filter design, it dosent use any integrating capacitors!!

The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector board.
(I haven't put up that one, but you will find the missing piece at the 
site I mentioned)

Cheers,
  Ren?


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From amajorel at teaser.fr  Fri Oct 10 13:41:19 2003
From: amajorel at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:41:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for individual parts of the Eurorack enclosures...
In-Reply-To: <003001c38f18$1a0e07a0$8b4a9bd9@erzulie>
References: <ce.3e4b9db2.2cb78baa@aol.com> <003001c38f18$1a0e07a0$8b4a9bd9@erzulie>
Message-ID: <20031010114119.GB3224@teaser.fr>

On 2003-10-10 11:20 +0100, Julian wrote:

> Im looking to swap the enclosure of my modular, and am having no
> problem finding suitable mounting rails for the eurorack type
> enclosures, as used by analogue systems, analogue solutions, and
> doepfer, but the ears to bolt the rails to the rack itself dont seem
> to be availible sepperatly anywhere, which seems somewhat odd...
> 
> Theyre not just plain right angle aluminum strip (which i will use
> otherwise, but itll leave gaps).
> 
> Anyone know anywhere that supplies the full range of parts, preferably
> in the uk?

RS has the APW ears (APW P/N 950-202783D, RS P/N 116-6088). But
they might not be compatible with parts made by Schroff or other
manufacturers.

-- 
Andr? Majorel <amajorel at teaser.fr>
http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Fri Oct 10 14:00:36 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:00:36 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
In-Reply-To: <3F8698A0.9010009@uni-bonn.de>
References: <20031010005842.11784.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> <3F8698A0.9010009@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <3F869F64.5070004@uni-bonn.de>

I wrote:
> The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector board.

Oops, no they're not.

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From fdi at ran.es  Fri Oct 10 14:12:49 2003
From: fdi at ran.es (Fernando de Izuzquiza)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:12:49 -0000
Subject: [sdiy] logic module
Message-ID: <200310101014.h9AAESAx006090@correo.direccion.com>

Aaron,
CGS new VC-divider-and-comparator. There is also a quad logic gate and other
interesting utilities there:
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/
Also, for a discrete logic module, JHaible has a design with two switches
for AND, OR, XOR and inversions:
http://home.t-online.de/home/jhaible/hjvarlog.gif
Fernando
--



f
*




> De: Aaron Day <aaron at receive-transmit.com>
> Fecha: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:46:38 +0200
> Para: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Asunto: [sdiy] logic module
>
> Greetings-
>
> I am looking for some recommendations/references for an interesting
> logic/control module to build.
>
> I have a fair mix of MOTM and Oakley modules that are now being
> controlled by 2xACS TM-116 sequencers. The sequencers are quite nice
> and although I've just scraped the surface of their functionality I
> know that I'd like to build some sort of device that can do some
> counting and/or decision making for me. i.e. a counter + XOR or a
> series of primitive counters that will wait until the n gate high
> before sending a bang. I know that there is a Serge module that did
> some freaky divisions by odd numbers but any other suggestions would be
> welcome.
>
> Best,
>
> ad
> _____________________
> Receive-Transmit
> Marienburgerstr. 33
> 10405 Berlin
> Germany
> _____________________
> www.receive-transmit.com
> +49 030.231.80965
> +49 179.750.1854
>
<br><br>
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________________________________________________<br>
This
mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Fri Oct 10 16:53:01 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:53:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <ce.3e4b9db2.2cb78baa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20031010145301.41498.qmail@web80214.mail.yahoo.com>

I did a longer shift register in my Prophet V...
the amplified noise transistors would have had a
vastly different amplitude (not digital with rail to
rail swings) and messed up the factory patches.

H^) harry

--- WeAreAs1 at aol.com wrote:
> I'm guessing that the majority of MM5837's were sold
> to drum machine makers.  
> That is, organ manufacturers who had beat boxes
> built into their organs 
> (Thomas, Lowery, etc.).  If you're just using it to
> make "snare drum" and "hi hat" 
> noise, with short little decay envelopes, then the
> cyclic pattern repetition 
> would not be much of an annoyance.  On the other
> hand, in synths?  Shame on 
> Moog, Sequential, and everyone else who wussed out
> and used those in their synths 
> instead of amplifying selected noise transistors.
> 
> Michael Bacich


From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Fri Oct 10 19:12:00 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:12:00 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D763@SBIEXCHANGE>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: harrybissell [mailto:harrybissell at prodigy.net]
> 
> Its a useless chip. It IS only good for something like room equalization,
> where the
> consistancy and repeatable noise MEANS something good.
>
> May those who
> specified the MM3837 rot in hell - pssht - rot in hell - pssht - rot in
> hell
> - pssht   ;^P
> 
> H^) harry
> 

Don't sugar coat it, Harry. Tell us how you REALLY feel. ;-)

Tim Servo



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From xyzzy at sysabend.org  Fri Oct 10 19:42:08 2003
From: xyzzy at sysabend.org (Tom Arnold)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:42:08 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <3F861926.D170C63F@prodigy.net>
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGELECDAA.rayw@csd.net> <20031010004029.89302.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <20031010011333.GC94744@moo.sysabend.org> <3F861926.D170C63F@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20031010174208.GF94744@moo.sysabend.org>

On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 10:27:50PM -0400, harrybissell wrote:
> Every manufacturer who put this in a synth had to offer a replacement.  May
> those who
> specified the MM3837 rot in hell - pssht - rot in hell - pssht - rot in hell
> - pssht   ;^P

Hrm.  Just quickly imagining the circuit that would loop this for you and
I see a BBD in it...  Of course, if you use a BBD you dont actually need the
MM5837 for whitenoise I suppose, so that keeps the parts count down...

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  - 
 - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          -
 - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       - 
 --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" -


From modular at go2.pl  Fri Oct 10 20:35:08 2003
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:35:08 +0200
Subject: Odp: [sdiy] Looking for individual parts of the Eurorack enclosures...
References: <ce.3e4b9db2.2cb78baa@aol.com> <003001c38f18$1a0e07a0$8b4a9bd9@erzulie>
Message-ID: <006b01c38f5d$608400a0$9e2010ac@unregistered.futuro.pl>

www.elfa.se
part number 34560-197 for 3U and 34560-497 ofr 6U

Roman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Julian <julian at 22host24.com>
To: Synth DIY <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for individual parts of the Eurorack enclosures...


> Hi there,
> 
> Im looking to swap the enclosure of my modular, and am having no problem
> finding suitable mounting rails for the eurorack type enclosures, as used by
> analogue systems, analogue solutions, and doepfer, but the ears to bolt the
> rails to the rack itself dont seem to be availible sepperatly anywhere,
> which seems somewhat odd...
> 
> Theyre not just plain right angle aluminum strip (which i will use
> otherwise, but itll leave gaps).
> 
> 
> Anyone know anywhere that supplies the full range of parts, preferably in
> the uk?
> 
> Cheers, julian
> 


From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Fri Oct 10 20:57:17 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:57:17 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Binary state change detector
In-Reply-To: <BBA96B44.DA01%peter@buzzclick-music.com>
Message-ID: <BBAC4F1D.DB5B%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

Does anyone have a clue why this letter popped up again??? I didn't resend
it.

'tis wierd.




Peter Grenader wrote:

> I am looking for a circuit that detects when the state (number) of a  four
> bit binary word changes state.
> 
> I've been putzing around with the idea of using a 74C85 in conjunction with
> a 4242 (using the 42 to latch the the last occurrence of change and feed it
> back into the C85 for the next comparison, and then running that output
> through a oneshot to keep it from disappearing as soon as it is sensed, but
> to this I have a question:
> 
> How short of a incoming pulse does a oneshot require in order to react?  For
> instance, another perfect example is a sequencer reset pulse coming from one
> of it's stage gate outputs.  As soon as it goes high, the reset function
> occurs and the gate is no longer high.  Will that pulse width, as short as
> it is, be long enough for a oneshot to react?  Although this isn't my
> application, its the same idea and if it's long enough, me thinks I've got
> the circuit I need here.
> 
> If not, I'm totally screwed and am asking the masters here if they have any
> other suggestions.
> 
> thanks in advance,
> 
> Peter
> 


From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Fri Oct 10 23:42:22 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:42:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries! 
Message-ID: <BBAC75CE.10C22%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

Brace Yourself folks for yet
Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!

http://www.cyndustries.com/

(We've totally gone insane this time!)

Cynthia


From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Sat Oct 11 00:52:31 2003
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:52:31 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
Message-ID: <185.217afc50.2cb8922f@aol.com>


In a message dated 10/10/03 7:53:16 AM, harrybissell at prodigy.net writes:

<< I did a longer shift register in my Prophet V...
the amplified noise transistors would have had a
vastly different amplitude (not digital with rail to
rail swings) and messed up the factory patches. >>

I really like what happens to the sound of those shift-register noise 
generators when you sweep the clock frequency.  It has a very pleasant, swirly 
phasing/flanging/filtersweep-like quality - but also really nothing like phasing, 
flanging, or filter sweeping.  I'm pretty sure that John Blacet's Dark Star 
Chaos module lets you do this, and provides a modulation input for this purpose 
(it uses the old TI SN76477 sound effect IC).  I tried this out when I was 
messing around with the TI IC, and was shocked at how cool it sounded, although the 
effective sweep range was not as wide as I would have preferred (using the 
chips internal noise clock).  Did you ever experiment with sweeping the clock 
frequency on your own shift register noise generator?

Mike B.


From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 11 01:12:45 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:12:45 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries! 
In-Reply-To: <BBAC75CE.10C22%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031010165324.00a8a9c8@127.0.0.1>

Cynthia et al. --

The use of LFO frequencies that  increase with increasing drive frequency 
is certainly novel and interesting.  But am I reading this right, there is 
no way to turn this feature off?

I would argue with the statement that this design is superior to all 
previous ones.  Several people have posted information about their versions 
of this animator, and certainly it has been demonstrated that there is 
scope for much more functionality than in this design.  For example, my 
version has six totally independent and voltage controlled LFOs, with sync 
inputs for interesting cross-coupling effects.  Also I would argue that the 
ommission of the commonly included triangle wave outputs is a serious drawback.

It's a nice compact unit with a good sound and quite a bit of 
functionality, but anyone wanting to get the most out of this concept might 
want to consider building something bigger.

   Ian



At 03:42 PM 10/10/2003, Cynthia Webster wrote:
>Brace Yourself folks for yet
>Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
>
>http://www.cyndustries.com/
>
>(We've totally gone insane this time!)
>
>Cynthia


From music.maker at gte.net  Sat Oct 11 01:28:32 2003
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:28:32 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
Message-ID: <200310102328.h9ANSWI00374@linux6.lan>

WeAreAs1 at aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 10/10/03 7:53:16 AM, harrybissell at prodigy.net writes:
>
><< I did a longer shift register in my Prophet V...
>the amplified noise transistors would have had a
>vastly different amplitude (not digital with rail to
>rail swings) and messed up the factory patches. >>
>
>I really like what happens to the sound of those shift-register noise 
>generators when you sweep the clock frequency.  It has a very pleasant, swirly 
>phasing/flanging/filtersweep-like quality - but also really nothing like phasing, 
>flanging, or filter sweeping.  I'm pretty sure that John Blacet's Dark Star 
>Chaos module lets you do this, and provides a modulation input for this purpose 
>(it uses the old TI SN76477 sound effect IC).  I tried this out when I was 
>messing around with the TI IC, and was shocked at how cool it sounded, although the 
>effective sweep range was not as wide as I would have preferred (using the 
>chips internal noise clock).  Did you ever experiment with sweeping the clock 
>frequency on your own shift register noise generator?

Hey Mike,

I have done so, I use a 32 bit LFSR clocked by a VCO.  I was sort of disappointed, to
me it sounded much like using a fixed noise generator passed through a VCF (LP),
CV=pitch.  I didn't do much more than that, I should have also run that through a
real VCF with rez, and CV=pitch.  I still want to do that.  What I was hoping for was
more of a tonal noise source than it appears to be.  I didn't realize that what I
really wanted was to use a VCO with some noise summed with the pitch control voltage.


=========================================================  
- Where merit is not rewarded, excellence fades.
- Hydrogen is pointless without solar.
- What good are laws that only lawyers understand?
- The media's credibility should always be questioned.
- Governments do nothing well, save collect taxes.

-- Scott Gravenhorst | LegoManiac / Lego Trains / RIS 1.5
-- Linux Rex         | RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FatMan/
-- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Sat Oct 11 01:38:40 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:38:40 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <185.217afc50.2cb8922f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20031010233840.28145.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com>

The MM5837 is really the pssh rotten in hell , psssh "catchunka" 
and then rotten in hell of IC's!(Harry is right on that).

Then you dont need long shift registers to achieve
the same efect,Do this:

1: Take a regular zener/transistor noise source, amplify
it and make it fairly flat in the frequency band.

2: Then run this noise trough a simple S/H cell.
(a simple single 4066 swich and a OPamp buffer)
now clock "diss" with a VCO.(PW of square shall be small).

3:And tra-la-la!!!Here are the same effect!

The benefit with shift registers are the flat
frequency responce and amplitude wich independent
of temperature changes, also RFI,EMC problems are
reduced conciderably compare with the high gain 
zener/transistor thing.

Besides anyone of age should remeber
this sound of old pinnball games!!

KD 

> I really like what happens to the sound of those shift-register noise 
> generators when you sweep the clock frequency.  It has a very pleasant,
> swirly 
> phasing/flanging/filtersweep-like quality - but also really nothing like
> phasing, 
> flanging, or filter sweeping.  I'm pretty sure that John Blacet's Dark
> Star 
> Chaos module lets you do this, and provides a modulation input for this
> purpose 
> (it uses the old TI SN76477 sound effect IC).  I tried this out when I
> was 
> messing around with the TI IC, and was shocked at how cool it sounded,
> although the 
> effective sweep range was not as wide as I would have preferred (using
> the 
> chips internal noise clock).  Did you ever experiment with sweeping the
> clock 
> frequency on your own shift register noise generator?
> 
> Mike B. 

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Sat Oct 11 01:52:41 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:52:41 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] polivoks filter
In-Reply-To: <3F869F64.5070004@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <20031010235241.55074.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com>

Exactly, listen here to what designer Vladimir Kuzmin
says at http://www.muztech.ru/eng/history.php

quoute; VCF doesn't have any capacitor at
        all and use only two op amps.

Now, that's interesting! I wonder how this is done!
Another interesting thing is the VCA, it has
differential outputs!

KD

 --- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > I wrote:
> > The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector
> board.
> 
> Oops, no they're not.
> 
> -- 
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159


H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Sat Oct 11 01:56:09 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:56:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries! 
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031010165324.00a8a9c8@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <BBAC9529.10C4C%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

http://www.cyndustries.com/

on 10/10/03 4:12 PM, Ian Fritz at ijfritz at earthlink.net wrote:

> Cynthia et al. --
> 
> The use of LFO frequencies that  increase with increasing drive frequency
> is certainly novel and interesting.  But am I reading this right, there is
> no way to turn this feature off?

Well, 

If you present a negative voltage to the CV input, the animation will freeze
at a fixed timbre which is an interesting feature.

Simon says... FREEZE!

Please forgive me Ian,
It should actually read "Superior to all designs except Ian Fritz's"

All kidding aside, we felt that previous designs had a flaw in that
the LFOs are traditionally parked at arguably arbitrary frequencies
and suffer from a phenomenon where some notes sound fattened more than
others.  We feel that no other design has solved this as concisely.

Minimoog's don't have a flanger or a sequencer, yet are still classic

There are always more features one can pile onto a module, but I felt
that this was as you suggest a good balance of size and function.

Maybe I totally blew it by not adding the triangle output?
I dunno, this combination just seemed to feel right to me, that's all

Scott Bernardi has another really excellent design as well!

Thanks for your comments Ian!

Cynthia

http://www.cyndustries.com/








> 
> I would argue with the statement that this design is superior to all
> previous ones.  Several people have posted information about their versions
> of this animator, and certainly it has been demonstrated that there is
> scope for much more functionality than in this design.  For example, my
> version has six totally independent and voltage controlled LFOs, with sync
> inputs for interesting cross-coupling effects.  Also I would argue that the
> ommission of the commonly included triangle wave outputs is a serious
> drawback.
> 
> It's a nice compact unit with a good sound and quite a bit of
> functionality, but anyone wanting to get the most out of this concept might
> want to consider building something bigger.
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> At 03:42 PM 10/10/2003, Cynthia Webster wrote:
>> Brace Yourself folks for yet
>> Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
>> 
>> http://www.cyndustries.com/
>> 
>> (We've totally gone insane this time!)
>> 
>> Cynthia
> 


From elby_designs at ozemail.com.au  Sat Oct 11 02:04:10 2003
From: elby_designs at ozemail.com.au (Laurie Biddulph)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:04:10 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] WASP Schematics
Message-ID: <000c01c38f8b$390a5370$1abdfea9@laurie>

Have tried emailing Ken MacBeth a couple of times with no joy so am throwing this to the forum.
I am currently transferring the schematic pics on kens website to proper card drawings and need a few bits of information including:-
  1.. the bottom right-hand corner of the schematic (appears to be missing from Kens site)
  2.. what opamps are being used
If anyone out there is prepared to help in this I would appreciate their contacting me.
Also, if CP Huggins or anyone associated with the WASP could contact I would, again, be appreciative.

Best Regards
Laurie Biddulph
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~boobies
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From sbernardi at comcast.net  Sat Oct 11 02:05:03 2003
From: sbernardi at comcast.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:05:03 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
In-Reply-To: <BBAC75CE.10C22%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
References: <BBAC75CE.10C22%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3F87492F.3070304@comcast.net>

Hey cool - there's your "obesifier"!  Mo' Phat rules! The animation is 
cool too!  Congrats.



I just did a new Obesifier (2) board - six stages, with two inputs 
brought out that can override the internal LFO's on two of the stages.

Cynthia Webster wrote:

>Brace Yourself folks for yet
>Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
>
>http://www.cyndustries.com/
>
>(We've totally gone insane this time!)
>
>Cynthia
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at comcast.net




From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Sat Oct 11 02:06:37 2003
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:06:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <003c01c38f9b$feb84d60$7109be3f@default>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310102002200.18274-100000@crowsnest.oldcrows.net>


  I suppose I should mention the PIC version of a 32-bit LFSR noise 
generator I made some years back...

http://chip.aeug.org/noise508.asm

  Small code tweaks would result in a selectable external noise clock 
input.

Crow
/**/


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Sat Oct 11 02:15:38 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:15:38 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries! 
In-Reply-To: <002b01c38f97$d02dc500$7109be3f@default>
Message-ID: <20031011001538.60740.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, it aint that new, besides listening to the mp3 they
dont sound very nice! either they are severly compressed
or the saw have some added noise to it, quite large infact!!

Surpricingly, since most other mp3 from cynthia sound quite
well!(I think that if one has a demonstration wave to show
off the products they better had to be good othervise it will
have the reverse effect!(reminds me of waldorf made a terrible
mp3 product show off once, some years ago). 

But its a neat module and simliare effect can be done 
with short delays wich infact a phaser stage are about.

(well i thought that some critics had to be said
to balancing things a bit, steady now people)!!

KD

--- Scott Stites <scottnoanh at peoplepc.com> skrev: > Holy cow!  Voltage
controlled fat - at this rate Mocan/Cyndustries is
> going
> to control the world (and I wouldn't mind that at all) =0)
> 
> Great work, Cynthia!
> 
> Cheers,
 Scott
 Original Message -----
> From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
> To: "Analog Heaven" <analogue at hyperreal.org>; "DIY"
> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 2:42 PM
> Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
> 
> 
> > Brace Yourself folks for yet
> > Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
> >
> > http://www.cyndustries.com/
> >
> > (We've totally gone insane this time!)
> >
> > Cynthia
> >
> >
>  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From elmacaco at nyc.rr.com  Sat Oct 11 02:50:22 2003
From: elmacaco at nyc.rr.com (elmacaco)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:50:22 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
Message-ID: <00b301c38f91$a6a88e00$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>

Hello,

I'm after a non polarized 100uF cap or higher value.  I heard that you can
make one from two electrolytic caps, but the position and value to make
100uF eludes me.

I think you tie the caps in series at the negative lead, but I really don't
know.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Ed


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From elmacaco at nyc.rr.com  Sat Oct 11 02:59:08 2003
From: elmacaco at nyc.rr.com (elmacaco)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:59:08 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Cool Find at Work!!
Message-ID: <00b901c38f92$e0293520$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>

hey all,

some demolition is happening at work, and in a trash pile was a black box
with three banana jacks in it.

!!!

It turns out it is a Xerox 600T1620 Electrostatic Voltmeter.  It runs on two
9 volt batteries, and has a wand as a sensor.  The problem is that it has no
display, only three banana jacks labeled Ground (Black) Low (red) and High
(blue).

it has an on off switch, a +/- switch, a low battery LED and a read/ hold
switch/

Now somebody tell me how I can use this thing!!!  Are the jacks inputs or
outputs (come ooooonn outputs!)  and what exactly would I output them to?
DVM? Scope?

finally, can I use this safely with my modular to introduce some
environmental weirdness, or will it deliver static to the synth?

any and all comments greatly appreciated!!

Ed


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From peake at pacificnet.net  Sat Oct 11 03:09:26 2003
From: peake at pacificnet.net (Mike Peake)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:09:26 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Re: [AH] Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
In-Reply-To: <AA5DEF33-FB7C-11D7-B380-00039357B4B6@sbcglobal.net>
References: <AA5DEF33-FB7C-11D7-B380-00039357B4B6@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <f05100301bbad0739df29@[65.148.152.179]>

Does the beat/detune amount change with oscillator pitch?
I'll take it that some negative keyboard scaling could
keep this constant?

Easier,

-Mike

>
>>Brace Yourself folks for yet
>>Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
>>
>>http://www.cyndustries.com/
>>
>>(We've totally gone insane this time!)
>>
>>Cynthia

-- 
Mike Peake, Your Postwar Administrator

_______________________________

Specifications:

"In 30+ years, no one has been able to re-create the sound
of a Pultec using the same technology - what makes you think
we'll be able to nail it digitally in our lifetime?"
__________________
Brad Blackwood
Mastering Engineer


From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Sat Oct 11 03:30:22 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:30:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Re: [AH] Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
In-Reply-To: <f05100301bbad0739df29@[65.148.152.179]>
Message-ID: <BBACAB3D.10C6F%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

on 10/10/03 6:09 PM, Mike Peake at peake at pacificnet.net wrote:

> Does the beat/detune amount change with oscillator pitch?
> I'll take it that some negative keyboard scaling could
> keep this constant?

Hi Mike!

This is Possible but maybe not ideal or necessary,
as when the FAT knob is turned down, the depth of
all the LFO modulation diminishes until a static timbre is
frozen in time.

So you actually Can turn the auto tracking LFOs Off
and insert your own control voltage be it LFO, Keyboard,
and so on in to modulate the animation instead.

It's tough dealing with the quality of mp3s and other
codecs on the web.  There's so much in the way of
buzzing high frequency harmonics coming out of the Animator
that MP3's just cannot seem to process that well.

There is a sound sample here on the animator page

http://www.cyndustries.com/modules_sawtooth.cfm

The fourth sample "Animation Modulation" only touches
on what is possible with using your own Control Voltages
for the modulation.  Here, the output of an envelope
is driving the sound fatter.

Isn't this is really a whole new type of sound?
So basically the answer really is YES
one can turn this  auto tracking LFO effect off
and instead fatten it up any way that you like!

Best Wishes Mike!

Cynthia

http://www.cyndustries.com/
 

>> 
>>> Brace Yourself folks for yet
>>> Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
>>> 
>>> http://www.cyndustries.com/
>>> 
>>> (We've totally gone insane this time!)
>>> 
>>> Cynthia


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Sat Oct 11 03:34:23 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:34:23 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries! 
References: <BBAC75CE.10C22%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
Message-ID: <002b01c38f97$d02dc500$7109be3f@default>

Holy cow!  Voltage controlled fat - at this rate Mocan/Cyndustries is going
to control the world (and I wouldn't mind that at all) =0)

Great work, Cynthia!

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
To: "Analog Heaven" <analogue at hyperreal.org>; "DIY"
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 2:42 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries!


> Brace Yourself folks for yet
> Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
>
> http://www.cyndustries.com/
>
> (We've totally gone insane this time!)
>
> Cynthia
>
>


From jhaible at debitel.net  Sat Oct 11 03:35:35 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 03:35:35 +0200
Subject: Capacitorless filters (was:Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter)
References: <20031010235241.55074.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000101c38fec$c3de85a0$787fb9d9@debitel.net>

No idea what's inside the russian parts.

But the Farfisa Synthorchestra had a 4pole VCF that was built
without capacitors. It used a quad opamp with
adjustable internal current sources. And of course there *are* capacitors:
The silicon-made phase compensation that's on chip.

Basically the same structure as an OTA + cap + buffer, only
scaled down to very small capacitors and very small currents.
Doesn't work too well at low cuttoff frequencies, no surprise.
But it's remarkable that it works at all!

JH.

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Karl Dalen <karldalen at yahoo.se>
An: <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de>
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Oktober 2003 01:52
Betreff: Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter


> Exactly, listen here to what designer Vladimir Kuzmin
> says at http://www.muztech.ru/eng/history.php
>
> quoute; VCF doesn't have any capacitor at
>         all and use only two op amps.
>
> Now, that's interesting! I wonder how this is done!
> Another interesting thing is the VCA, it has
> differential outputs!
>
> KD
>
>  --- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > I wrote:
> > > The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector
> > board.
> >
> > Oops, no they're not.
> >
> > --
> > uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> > http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>
>
> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
>



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Oct 11 04:00:51 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:00:51 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
References: <00b301c38f91$a6a88e00$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3F876452.333EA7A@prodigy.net>

Yes, you can do that.  Some folks like to tie a bias resistor to the center
point of the cap (the negative leads) and run that to the negative supply
voltage. This will keep the caps happy and polarized... but might introduce
noise.

You need twice the capacitance for the seires connection.

I prefer REAL bipolar capacitors

H^) harry

elmacaco wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm after a non polarized 100uF cap or higher value.  I heard that you can
> make one from two electrolytic caps, but the position and value to make
> 100uF eludes me.
>
> I think you tie the caps in series at the negative lead, but I really don't
> know.
>
> Any help greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ed
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 9/11/03


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Sat Oct 11 04:04:17 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:04:17 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
References: <185.217afc50.2cb8922f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c38f9b$feb84d60$7109be3f@default>

Yeah, the DSC2000 provides a pretty nice sweep from the SN76477's noise
generator.

An application that's taken this concept to the nth degree is Ken Stone's
CGS 31 Digital Noise module, which uses a 4006 shift register, has an
internal linear VCO for sweeping with CV, an external clock input so you can
sweep it with a VCO, and it has white, pink, and two separate, unique random
outputs.

http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs31_digital_noise.html

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: <WeAreAs1 at aol.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!


>
> In a message dated 10/10/03 7:53:16 AM, harrybissell at prodigy.net writes:
>
> << I did a longer shift register in my Prophet V...
> the amplified noise transistors would have had a
> vastly different amplitude (not digital with rail to
> rail swings) and messed up the factory patches. >>
>
> I really like what happens to the sound of those shift-register noise
> generators when you sweep the clock frequency.  It has a very pleasant,
swirly
> phasing/flanging/filtersweep-like quality - but also really nothing like
phasing,
> flanging, or filter sweeping.  I'm pretty sure that John Blacet's Dark
Star
> Chaos module lets you do this, and provides a modulation input for this
purpose
> (it uses the old TI SN76477 sound effect IC).  I tried this out when I was
> messing around with the TI IC, and was shocked at how cool it sounded,
although the
> effective sweep range was not as wide as I would have preferred (using the
> chips internal noise clock).  Did you ever experiment with sweeping the
clock
> frequency on your own shift register noise generator?
>
> Mike B.
>


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Sat Oct 11 05:03:53 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:03:53 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries! 
References: <20031011001538.60740.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <03b101c38fa4$532ef260$7109be3f@default>

I don't hear noise myself - it sounds to me what raw, detuned multiple
waveforms sound like without filtering.  I imagine the intent of the samples
is to give the listener the effect of the module itself, without the
listener possibly misinterpreting an artifact of filtering/post processing
to be a characteristic of the module.  When I listen to it, my brain says
'insert filter here' =0) (except on the second half of the opening MP3 - to
me that's a cool sound just the way it is).

It *would* be nice if there were a sample or two of "and this is what it
sounds like with the (insert name) filter", etc.

My dos centavos.
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Dalen" <karldalen at yahoo.se>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries!


> Well, it aint that new, besides listening to the mp3 they
> dont sound very nice! either they are severly compressed
> or the saw have some added noise to it, quite large infact!!
>
> Surpricingly, since most other mp3 from cynthia sound quite
> well!(I think that if one has a demonstration wave to show
> off the products they better had to be good othervise it will
> have the reverse effect!(reminds me of waldorf made a terrible
> mp3 product show off once, some years ago).
>
> But its a neat module and simliare effect can be done
> with short delays wich infact a phaser stage are about.
>
> (well i thought that some critics had to be said
> to balancing things a bit, steady now people)!!
>
> KD
>
> --- Scott Stites <scottnoanh at peoplepc.com> skrev: > Holy cow!  Voltage
> controlled fat - at this rate Mocan/Cyndustries is
> > going
> > to control the world (and I wouldn't mind that at all) =0)
> >
> > Great work, Cynthia!
> >
> > Cheers,
>  Scott
>  Original Message -----
> > From: "Cynthia Webster" <cynthia.webster at gte.net>
> > To: "Analog Heaven" <analogue at hyperreal.org>; "DIY"
> > <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 2:42 PM
> > Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
> >
> >
> > > Brace Yourself folks for yet
> > > Another Radical New Module from Cyndustries!
> > >
> > > http://www.cyndustries.com/
> > >
> > > (We've totally gone insane this time!)
> > >
> > > Cynthia
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
>


From lesmizz at scampers.com  Sat Oct 11 06:11:21 2003
From: lesmizz at scampers.com (Les Mizzell)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:11:21 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries - Site Problem
In-Reply-To: <f05100301bbad0739df29@[65.148.152.179]>
References: <AA5DEF33-FB7C-11D7-B380-00039357B4B6@sbcglobal.net> <f05100301bbad0739df29@[65.148.152.179]>
Message-ID: <3F8782E9.6070105@scampers.com>

Open Note to All:

Shortly after posting the new files announcing the Sawtooth Animator on 
the Cyndustries site, and not too long after Cynthia made the 
announcement, our host, Logic South, began having major server problems.

Their mail servers failed a number of hours ago, and then just a few 
hours ago, the server at Logic South hosting the site failed, taking not 
only the Cyndustries site, but also EGRES and a number of other clients 
that I handle.

I'm hoping Logic South will resolve this problem shortly, and I 
apologize to all that are getting DNS error messages right now while 
trying to view the Cyndustries site.

I'm yelling at the host right now over this, and they're trying to 
expedite resolution as quickly as possible.


-- 
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
?Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
  Virent ova! Viret perna!
  Dapem posthac non arcebo.
  Gratum tibi me praebebo.?


From lesmizz at scampers.com  Sat Oct 11 06:56:31 2003
From: lesmizz at scampers.com (Les Mizzell)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:56:31 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries - Site Problem
In-Reply-To: <3F8782E9.6070105@scampers.com>
References: <AA5DEF33-FB7C-11D7-B380-00039357B4B6@sbcglobal.net> <f05100301bbad0739df29@[65.148.152.179]> <3F8782E9.6070105@scampers.com>
Message-ID: <3F878D7F.8030705@scampers.com>

OK, site is back up now.

http://www.cyndustries.com

Don't have a good explanation from the ISP yet though.


-- 
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
?Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
  Virent ova! Viret perna!
  Dapem posthac non arcebo.
  Gratum tibi me praebebo.?


From gilwein at walla.co.il  Sat Oct 11 12:52:00 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:52:00 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Nicad to lithium battery conversion
Message-ID: <200310111052.h9BAq0F18347@walla.co.il>

Hi all !

I have that great sounding analog Kawai SX-210 which is 20 years old.

Lately it started ot behave strangely, plays sounds and doule notes automatically and randomly.

A few months ago I opened it up and saw black color type of dirt near the Nicad battery.
Cleaned it with contact spray and the problem was temporarily solved.

But a week ago it went back.

I opened it up again and it seems that the "dirt" (or acid ????)
"ate" the PCB near were it is !

I assume this is going out of the battery.

The first thing I'm gonna do is desolder the battery out and than recover the
"eaten" area on the PCB.

Hope nothing happend to the ICs placed in this area.

I recall a discussion we had here about modding the circuit so I can use
a lithium battery instead.

What does it involve ? can you give me any directions ?

Thanks !!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://mail.walla.co.il

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From gilwein at walla.co.il  Sat Oct 11 13:02:28 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:02:28 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Nican to lithium battery convertion - continued
Message-ID: <200310111102.h9BB2Su14141@omail2.walla.co.il>

Aditionally,

what is the best way to clean the area where the acid is 
without making it worse ? Is contact fliude OK?

And, should I really use lithium ot can I just place the new battery away from the circuits ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
http://mail.walla.co.il

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From julian at 22host24.com  Sat Oct 11 14:05:16 2003
From: julian at 22host24.com (Julian)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:05:16 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] just to say thx for the eurorac info...
References: <200310111102.h9BB2Su14141@omail2.walla.co.il>
Message-ID: <09fe01c38fef$ef588f20$8b4a9bd9@erzulie>

I now have many sources of individual parts.  I think ill either end up going for apw/vero or schroff.

A decent power-one, and one of those sbk mixer cases, and i should have a nicely portable modular.

Anyway, thanks for all the info.

cheers, julian
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From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct 11 16:22:41 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:22:41 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <20031010004029.89302.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGENHCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi

Of course you can find the data sheet finding the part is the hard bit.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Karl Dalen
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:40 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: RE: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!


I can find it everywhere!

For example this:

http://mohodisco.com/monopoly/pdf/mm5837.pdf
http://www.chipdocs.com/pndecoder/datasheets/NSC/MM5837.html

Interesting noise generator page and meaurements including the mm5837.

http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM

and so on and on and on! :-)

BTW the MM5837 are also known as the "catchunka" generator!
It repeats its shiftregister noise at intervalls, a second or
so making it a hopeless cirquit, YET it has ben used in
synthesisers from the past such as P5,Source, Chroma!

KD

--- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> skrev: > Hi yasi
>
> I couldn't find the MM5837 anywhere. Often when you find that a chip is
> un-findable it is probably a good idea to find another way to accomplish
> the
> goal or else when your totally cool circuit goes kaput finding a
> replacement
> only gets harder and finally impossible.
>
> If all you want is noise check this out.
>
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Ray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of yasi perera
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 3:29 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
>
>
> Hi,
> just wondering if anybody knows where to get some (~25) mm5837's.
>
> thanks,
> yasi perera
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help protect your PC.  Get a FREE computer virus scan online from
> McAfee.
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct 11 16:25:38 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:25:38 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <20031010011333.GC94744@moo.sysabend.org>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENHCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

When I click the order link for MM5837 I get:

Unable to retrieve [130] from [products]! 

Finding this part will not be easy I guarantee you.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Tom Arnold
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 7:14 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!


Unicorn Electronics has the MM5837 apparently in some quantity.
http://www.unicornelectronics.com/GENERATORS.html

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  - 
 - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          -
 - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       - 
 --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" -


From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct 11 16:31:23 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:31:23 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <20031010145301.41498.qmail@web80214.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEENICDAA.rayw@csd.net>

I have posted a cool circtuit that gives rail to rail digital noise and
works with a lowly 2N3904. Check it out.

http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html

It takes a couple of parts and a  dual op amp and BAM you get all the high
amplitude non-cyclic noise you want. The upper left corner of the schematic
is the noise generation part.

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry Bissell Jr
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:53 AM
To: WeAreAs1 at aol.com; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!


I did a longer shift register in my Prophet V...
the amplified noise transistors would have had a
vastly different amplitude (not digital with rail to
rail swings) and messed up the factory patches.

H^) harry

--- WeAreAs1 at aol.com wrote:
> I'm guessing that the majority of MM5837's were sold
> to drum machine makers.
> That is, organ manufacturers who had beat boxes
> built into their organs
> (Thomas, Lowery, etc.).  If you're just using it to
> make "snare drum" and "hi hat"
> noise, with short little decay envelopes, then the
> cyclic pattern repetition
> would not be much of an annoyance.  On the other
> hand, in synths?  Shame on
> Moog, Sequential, and everyone else who wussed out
> and used those in their synths
> instead of amplifying selected noise transistors.
>
> Michael Bacich


From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct 11 16:40:25 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:40:25 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
In-Reply-To: <00b301c38f91$a6a88e00$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENICDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi

You got it right. Tie the negative ends together (I think this was a Craig
Anderton tip). When you put caps in series you decrease the capacitance in a
manner similar to the formula for putting resistors in parallel (if you get
my meaning). In your case you will need to put two 100uF caps in series to
get 100uF. But this begs the question... why don't you just buy some 100uF
non-polarized caps?

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of elmacaco
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 6:50 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?


Hello,

I'm after a non polarized 100uF cap or higher value.  I heard that you can
make one from two electrolytic caps, but the position and value to make
100uF eludes me.

I think you tie the caps in series at the negative lead, but I really don't
know.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Ed


---
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From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct 11 16:44:20 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:44:20 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENICDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEENJCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Finger fumble sorry...

In your case you will need to put two 100uF caps in series to
get 100uF.

Should say...

In your case you will need to put two 200uF caps in series to
get 100uF.

The hand doctor says I will get better someday...


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Ray Wilson
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 8:40 AM
To: elmacaco; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?


Hi

You got it right. Tie the negative ends together (I think this was a Craig
Anderton tip). When you put caps in series you decrease the capacitance in a
manner similar to the formula for putting resistors in parallel (if you get
my meaning). In your case you will need to put two 100uF caps in series to
get 100uF. But this begs the question... why don't you just buy some 100uF
non-polarized caps?

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of elmacaco
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 6:50 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?


Hello,

I'm after a non polarized 100uF cap or higher value.  I heard that you can
make one from two electrolytic caps, but the position and value to make
100uF eludes me.

I think you tie the caps in series at the negative lead, but I really don't
know.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Ed


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 9/11/03


From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct 11 16:49:21 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:49:21 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Using LF398 for Keyboard S&H
In-Reply-To: <20031008083242.14126.qmail@web86203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANKENJCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi Ken

You might check out this page for some thoughts:
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/keybrdcontroller.html

Believe it or not this Linear Technology chip makes a great sample & hold
amp.
http://www.linear.com/prod/datasheet.html?datasheet=238


Ray


  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Ken MacBeth
  Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 2:33 AM
  To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
  Subject: [sdiy] Using LF398 for Keyboard S&H


    Hi All! I just picked up a beautiful 5 octave dual contact bare keyboard
and would like to do a 'one off' keyboard controller. I've actually done
this before using the basic Prodigy circuit, but at time the hold over time
drooped a bit. It has occured to me to use an LF398 Sample and Hold
amplifier to do what the the fet and the jfet opamp seem to be doing in the
Prodigy keyboard circuit- any opinions/experiences/examples of doing this,
anyone?

    Best regards, Ken



  http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com
  Home of the M3X Analogue synthesizer...


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From rdrake at data2action.com  Sat Oct 11 18:51:28 2003
From: rdrake at data2action.com (R. Drake)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:51:28 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEENICDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <BBADAD50.17A3B%rdrake@data2action.com>

ray,

have you built one of these using the PC board artwork on your site yet?
thanks as always for the incredible resource.

lbd 

on 10/11/03 10:31 AM, Ray Wilson at rayw at csd.net wrote:

> I have posted a cool circtuit that gives rail to rail digital noise and
> works with a lowly 2N3904. Check it out.
> 
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
> 
> It takes a couple of parts and a  dual op amp and BAM you get all the high
> amplitude non-cyclic noise you want. The upper left corner of the schematic
> is the noise generation part.
> 
> Ray
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry Bissell Jr
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:53 AM
> To: WeAreAs1 at aol.com; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
> 
> 
> I did a longer shift register in my Prophet V...
> the amplified noise transistors would have had a
> vastly different amplitude (not digital with rail to
> rail swings) and messed up the factory patches.
> 
> H^) harry
> 
> --- WeAreAs1 at aol.com wrote:
>> I'm guessing that the majority of MM5837's were sold
>> to drum machine makers.
>> That is, organ manufacturers who had beat boxes
>> built into their organs
>> (Thomas, Lowery, etc.).  If you're just using it to
>> make "snare drum" and "hi hat"
>> noise, with short little decay envelopes, then the
>> cyclic pattern repetition
>> would not be much of an annoyance.  On the other
>> hand, in synths?  Shame on
>> Moog, Sequential, and everyone else who wussed out
>> and used those in their synths
>> instead of amplifying selected noise transistors.
>> 
>> Michael Bacich


From elmacaco at nyc.rr.com  Sat Oct 11 20:09:09 2003
From: elmacaco at nyc.rr.com (elmacaco)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:09:09 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENICDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <007b01c39022$c7bdd320$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>

Thanks guys!!

I am skipping ordering an NP cap because I need only one and have a bunch of
Polarized caps here.  I don't want to pay $6 shipping for one capacitor, and
I want to finish this circuit over the weekend.

Thanks for the tips!

Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wilson" <rayw at csd.net>
To: "elmacaco" <elmacaco at nyc.rr.com>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?


> Hi
>
> You got it right. Tie the negative ends together (I think this was a Craig
> Anderton tip). When you put caps in series you decrease the capacitance in
a
> manner similar to the formula for putting resistors in parallel (if you
get
> my meaning). In your case you will need to put two 100uF caps in series to
> get 100uF. But this begs the question... why don't you just buy some 100uF
> non-polarized caps?
>
> Ray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of elmacaco
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 6:50 PM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm after a non polarized 100uF cap or higher value.  I heard that you can
> make one from two electrolytic caps, but the position and value to make
> 100uF eludes me.
>
> I think you tie the caps in series at the negative lead, but I really
don't
> know.
>
> Any help greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ed
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 9/11/03
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 9/11/03


From dug at dugdesign.com  Sat Oct 11 20:47:26 2003
From: dug at dugdesign.com (The D.U.G.)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:47:26 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator
In-Reply-To: <BBADAD50.17A3B%rdrake@data2action.com>
Message-ID: <00ef01c39028$1de822f0$6501a8c0@dug>

Does anybody have a good simple oscillator circuit for a beginner?

Also, are their any good forums and/or other good online resources for diy
schematics and/or parts(surplus)?


From jmahoney at gate.net  Sat Oct 11 22:14:17 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:14:17 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Wanted: SSM2044-based VCF design/PCB
References: <00ef01c39028$1de822f0$6501a8c0@dug>
Message-ID: <008701c39034$3f875a00$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

I've got some SSM2044 chips (one of the more common "rare" chips, lately)
and would like to build some VCFs around them. I could use a schemo or PCB
layout or an actual PCB. Suggestions?
--
john


From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct 11 22:30:24 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:30:24 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <BBADAD50.17A3B%rdrake@data2action.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANMENOCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi

I just layed out a board with three of these using the artwork on my site
but I still haven't etched and populated it yet. The circuit works for
certain (I kludged one together on a Radio Shack project board). When I etch
the board I plan to make one a multi-noise source/random gate generator and
the other two just random gate generators. I keep getting ideas and I want
to do all the circuit boards at once. I'm 99.44% certain that the board art
will work fine but I never feel completely comfortable (0.56% discomfort)
until I make one and then I can with certainty say that it will work.

So the short answer is "not yet."

Sorry for the verbosity.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of R. Drake
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 10:51 AM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!


ray,

have you built one of these using the PC board artwork on your site yet?
thanks as always for the incredible resource.

lbd

on 10/11/03 10:31 AM, Ray Wilson at rayw at csd.net wrote:

> I have posted a cool circtuit that gives rail to rail digital noise and
> works with a lowly 2N3904. Check it out.
>
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
>
> It takes a couple of parts and a  dual op amp and BAM you get all the high
> amplitude non-cyclic noise you want. The upper left corner of the
schematic
> is the noise generation part.
>
> Ray
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry Bissell Jr
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:53 AM
> To: WeAreAs1 at aol.com; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
>
>
> I did a longer shift register in my Prophet V...
> the amplified noise transistors would have had a
> vastly different amplitude (not digital with rail to
> rail swings) and messed up the factory patches.
>
> H^) harry
>
> --- WeAreAs1 at aol.com wrote:
>> I'm guessing that the majority of MM5837's were sold
>> to drum machine makers.
>> That is, organ manufacturers who had beat boxes
>> built into their organs
>> (Thomas, Lowery, etc.).  If you're just using it to
>> make "snare drum" and "hi hat"
>> noise, with short little decay envelopes, then the
>> cyclic pattern repetition
>> would not be much of an annoyance.  On the other
>> hand, in synths?  Shame on
>> Moog, Sequential, and everyone else who wussed out
>> and used those in their synths
>> instead of amplifying selected noise transistors.
>>
>> Michael Bacich


From rayw at csd.net  Sat Oct 11 22:33:43 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:33:43 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator
In-Reply-To: <00ef01c39028$1de822f0$6501a8c0@dug>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANAENPCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Go here:

This is as simple as it gets and fun to play around with.
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/NewAugustRampLFO.html

The oscillator portion of this is voltage controlled and also fun to play
with.
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/soundlab.html

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of The D.U.G.
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 12:47 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator


Does anybody have a good simple oscillator circuit for a beginner?

Also, are their any good forums and/or other good online resources for diy
schematics and/or parts(surplus)?


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Oct 12 00:57:01 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:57:01 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANMENOCDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <3F888ABD.BCD9CA26@prodigy.net>

Ray Wilson wrote:

> Hi
>
> I just layed out a board with three of these using the artwork on my site
> but I still haven't etched and populated it yet. The circuit works for
> certain (I kludged one together on a Radio Shack project board). When I etch
> the board I plan to make one a multi-noise source/random gate generator and
> the other two just random gate generators. I keep getting ideas and I want
> to do all the circuit boards at once. I'm 99.44% certain that the board art
> will work fine but I never feel completely comfortable (0.56% discomfort)
> until I make one and then I can with certainty say that it will work.
>
> So the short answer is "not yet."
>
> Sorry for the verbosity.
>

verbosity quite OK... it IS a NOISE source ain't it ???   :^P

H^) harry


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Sun Oct 12 01:21:30 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:21:30 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator
In-Reply-To: <00ef01c39028$1de822f0$6501a8c0@dug>
References: <00ef01c39028$1de822f0$6501a8c0@dug>
Message-ID: <3F88907A.2040507@uni-bonn.de>

The D.U.G. wrote:
> Does anybody have a good simple oscillator circuit for a beginner?
> 
> Also, are their any good forums and/or other good online resources for diy
> schematics and/or parts(surplus)?
> 

Maybe you want to take a look at the VCO4069 at my site, this is really 
as simple as it can get.

Cheers,
  Ren?



-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Oct 12 01:30:18 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:30:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator
In-Reply-To: <3F88907A.2040507@uni-bonn.de>
References: <00ef01c39028$1de822f0$6501a8c0@dug>
	<3F88907A.2040507@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <20031012.013018.48516084.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Ren? Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Oscillator
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:21:30 +0200

> The D.U.G. wrote:
> > Does anybody have a good simple oscillator circuit for a beginner?
> > 
> > Also, are their any good forums and/or other good online resources for diy
> > schematics and/or parts(surplus)?
> > 
> 
> Maybe you want to take a look at the VCO4069 at my site, this is really 
> as simple as it can get.

It is also sinister in it's cursuit-bending, so it gets some obscurity points
right there. ;O)

Cheers,
Magnus


From gilwein at walla.co.il  Sun Oct 12 01:49:42 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:49:42 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Kawai SX-210 still having problems
Message-ID: <200310112349.h9BNngD17773@omail1.walla.co.il>


I have that great sounding Kawai SX-210 for about 17 years. It always worked fine till lately when it started to play notes randomly and automatically, as well as double notes (when I play a single note another note is played randomly). I checked the NiCd battery and found it has leaked and that it left it's green acid on the area where it's at on the PCB. I had to remove a few resistors to be able to clean the area, than placed new ones instead. Also had one connector broken so I resoldered. I also still use the old battery till I get a new one - placed it far from the PCBs. It actually doens't look like it ever leaked. The synth has stopped playing it's own notes as it did before. Actually it works almost perfect now (after I cleaned all push switches which hardly worked...) except that sometimes I notice that a single key or two play a sound that is slightly different from the patch sound. For example, when I use cutoff of about 50%, the D key will play as the cutoff is s!
et to far below 50% while all others will play good. Strange. 

Would you suggest to continue replacing components near where the battery was placed ? Could it be dried capacitors and how do I check for ones ? any other ideas ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 12 03:34:14 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:34:14 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries! 
In-Reply-To: <BBAC9529.10C4C%cynthia.webster@gte.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031010165324.00a8a9c8@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031011102328.00aa0c58@127.0.0.1>

At 05:56 PM 10/10/2003, Cynthia Webster wrote:
> >
> > The use of LFO frequencies that  increase with increasing drive frequency
> > is certainly novel and interesting.  But am I reading this right, there is
> > no way to turn this feature off?
>
>Well,
>
>If you present a negative voltage to the CV input, the animation will freeze
>at a fixed timbre which is an interesting feature.
>
>Simon says... FREEZE!

OK, but this freezes all the animation, right?  I was wondering if it was 
in any way possible to get the 4-LFO animation without the frequency 
tracking.  Might be a good mod for an adventurous DIYer!

>All kidding aside, we felt that previous designs had a flaw in that
>the LFOs are traditionally parked at arguably arbitrary frequencies

I don't understand how you can argue this.  The original writeup explained 
exactly how the frequencies were chosen.  They are in the ratio of 2.1^.2 
in order to avoid formation of repetitive patterns.  Whether this is a 
serious problem in practice may be debatable.

>and suffer from a phenomenon where some notes sound fattened more than
>others.  We feel that no other design has solved this as concisely.

Plus, you have added voltage control, a very important advance.

It isn't totally clear what the Fat control does.  It increases the 
frequencies of the LFOs, but does it also change the depth of the phase 
shifts?  And what happens when the FAT control is shut down and the CV FAT 
input is used?  (What, exactly, determines the four phase shifts?)  Sorry 
if this is too many snoopy questions.  Obviously you could have good reason 
to keep all this proprietary.

>There are always more features one can pile onto a module, but I felt
>that this was as you suggest a good balance of size and function.

Yes it is.  It's still interesting to debate different ways to do the 
trade-offs.

>Maybe I totally blew it by not adding the triangle output?
>I dunno, this combination just seemed to feel right to me, that's all

And that's all the justification that is needed!

Myself, I like the triangles, or a combination of some tri and some 
saw.  This does add a fair amount of circuitry.

>Scott Bernardi has another really excellent design as well!

Yes he does!

>Thanks for your comments Ian!

Thanks for the discussion!

   Ian


From moog at qwest.net  Sun Oct 12 04:38:41 2003
From: moog at qwest.net (James R. Coplin)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:38:41 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
In-Reply-To: <200310112349.h9BNngD17773@omail1.walla.co.il>
Message-ID: <000b01c39069$f2cef0c0$e9fce73f@home>

So, what are some of the recommendations for someone getting into DIY
and wanting/needing a scope. I guess my general feel with equipment is
that I'd rather buy once and be done even if it means laying out more
cash and having some growing pains at first as I'm flooded with more
options then I may need. I've poked around on ebay and there seems some
pretty reasonable deals but I really don't know what I'm looking at.
Recommendations?
 
James R. Coplin
***************
If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
simply tell them i've gone out the window
for a spot of tea and am not 
expected back any time soon.
***************
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From synth1 at airmail.net  Sun Oct 12 05:21:24 2003
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:21:24 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] R. Rich's concert setup
Message-ID: <000d01c3906f$ead05fc0$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>

Uploaded a few pictures of Robert's modular/keyboard stuff setup to:

www.synthtech.com/pix/portland

Photography is not my strength.

Paul S.


From synth1 at airmail.net  Sun Oct 12 05:37:20 2003
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:37:20 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-480 CS-80 VCF board
Message-ID: <000b01c39072$24d95440$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>

Yet another failed photo attempt:

www.synthtech.com/pix/m480_1.jpg

Stuffed MOTM-480 CS-80 VCF (series of 2 identical state variable filters with independent
cutoff/resonance paths). Spot the goof-up (good thing this is a prototype!).

Initial tests: 100% functional, "test equipment"-wise. Now it's off to beta testing versus actual
CS-80s.

Paul S.


From rayw at csd.net  Sun Oct 12 06:31:21 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:31:21 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
In-Reply-To: <000b01c39069$f2cef0c0$e9fce73f@home>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANKEODCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi James

I would suggest at least (20MHz Dual Trace) this or up (40MHz, 60MHz,
etc...).

http://www.web-tronics.com/csi20dutrosw.html

Or... you could also go with a PC based scope. Something like this:

http://www.web-tronics.com/pcbasdigstor.html

Ray


  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of James R. Coplin
  Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 8:39 PM
  To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
  Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?


  So, what are some of the recommendations for someone getting into DIY and
wanting/needing a scope. I guess my general feel with equipment is that I'd
rather buy once and be done even if it means laying out more cash and having
some growing pains at first as I'm flooded with more options then I may
need. I've poked around on ebay and there seems some pretty reasonable deals
but I really don't know what I'm looking at. Recommendations?



  James R. Coplin

  ***************

  If anyone asks of my whereabouts,

  simply tell them i've gone out the window

  for a spot of tea and am not

  expected back any time soon.

  ***************
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From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Sun Oct 12 07:37:06 2003
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:37:06 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20031012053706.011d1ff4@popa.melbpc.org.au>

If you just want to look at audio waveforms, then a PC based 
scope is OK.
but I can't imagine using one for trouble shooting.. in my 
opinion most ANY 2 channel secondhand scope is more useful.
Don't forget the probes (if not included) might cost nearly 
as much as the scope.
And, note that it is usually cheaper to buy another 2hand 
scope than to pay to have one fixed (even if parts exist).

When chasing low level noise, I sometimes have to turn off
my computer, which would be difficult with a PC based scope ;D

And those PC scopes (modules that you plug into the computer)
cost more than a good secondhand scope anyway. (I'm not
referring to the PC soundcard freebie programs here).

I personally think that good analog scopes are where analog 
synths were in the early 80s, undervalued & well worth 
grabbing. (not of course in Australia, where test equipment is 
ludicrously expensive to buy or service..)

Get thee to a swapmeet!

paul perry Melbourne Australia




From lists at studioconsul.net  Sun Oct 12 07:51:06 2003
From: lists at studioconsul.net (Darren Landrum)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 00:51:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [sdiy] R. Rich's concert setup
In-Reply-To: <000d01c3906f$ead05fc0$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
References: <000d01c3906f$ead05fc0$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <33295.68.69.134.21.1065937866.squirrel@www.studioconsul.net>

I really like that set-up, with those lights bending every which way. Makes
it all look very space-age and high-tech. :-)

-- Darren


> Uploaded a few pictures of Robert's modular/keyboard stuff setup to:
>
> www.synthtech.com/pix/portland
>
> Photography is not my strength.
>
> Paul S.




From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Sun Oct 12 08:19:27 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:19:27 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
In-Reply-To: <000b01c39069$f2cef0c0$e9fce73f@home>
References: <000b01c39069$f2cef0c0$e9fce73f@home>
Message-ID: <3F88F26F.2010304@ix.netcom.com>

Hi James,
If you want to buy once, go for a good new 60MHz/dual trace scope or 
better - They can be had for reasonable prices and it will keep you 
happy for good while.
I've had too many headaches with used scopes in the past - they always 
crap out just when you need them most and then you're back down at 
OScope Joe's Used Scope lot kicking tires again. :-(
OTOH used is good if you know about the scope you're buying - you know 
it's good and it has no 'issues'.

Even if you're working only with audio frequencies, its nice to be able 
to detect unwanted RF oscillation/ringing in a circuit, and measure 
nanosecond rise/fall times, etc.
It's like choosing digital cameras - Cheap cameras will give you small 
fuzzy pictures, better cameras will give you big sharp pictures that 
show more detail. In scopes, more bandwidth = more detail.

Hope that helps,
Oren

James R. Coplin wrote:

> So, what are some of the recommendations for someone getting into DIY 
> and wanting/needing a scope. I guess my general feel with equipment is 
> that I?d rather buy once and be done even if it means laying out more 
> cash and having some growing pains at first as I?m flooded with more 
> options then I may need. I?ve poked around on ebay and there seems 
> some pretty reasonable deals but I really don?t know what I?m looking 
> at. Recommendations?
>
> James R. Coplin
>
> ***************
>
> If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
>
> simply tell them i've gone out the window
>
> for a spot of tea and am not
>
> expected back any time soon.
>
> ***************
>

-- 
Oren Leavitt
oleavitt at ix.netcom.com




From elby_designs at ozemail.com.au  Sun Oct 12 10:35:04 2003
From: elby_designs at ozemail.com.au (Laurie Biddulph)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:35:04 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] WASP Schematics
Message-ID: <001c01c3909b$ca36de70$b16d66cb@laurie>

I have posted some (proper) schematics for the WASP based on several scans currently on the web. These scans have some omissions and errors on them (of which some are still in the schematics) so I would appreciate any feedback on these schematics.

I would also like to hear back from any users of the WASP and any comments readers have on the beastie.

Best Regards
Laurie Biddulph
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~boobies
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From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Sun Oct 12 14:03:02 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 05:03:02 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] What 40 Modules? (Spice it Up!)
Message-ID: <BBAE9106.10D51%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

Modular cabinets?
Wolfgang Puck as Synthesist?

Ok friends, just look into your ~kitchen~ cabinets!

AH yes... the cooking um, ~analogy~

Catsup, Mustard, and Mayonnaise...
Salt, Pepper, some Garlic?
Tabasco (red), Worcestershire, and A1 Sauce...
Nutmeg, Cinnamon, maybe some allspice?

And there's Curry, here, tomato, and Lemon Grass,
Coconut milk, and an ancient can of hollandaise.

Oh yeah, roquefort, soy, wasabi, ginger, and sage.
Sugar, Chai, honey, and horseradish...

Relish, coffee, peppermint, oats, and anise!

Romano AND Parmesan, Pistachio, and clam juice...
Butter, Olive Oil, and hazelnut.

Vanilla, Habanero, chocolate, and strawberries

Sour Apple, Whisky, sasparilla, and peach!
Basil, Bayleafs, powdered milk, and dill weed.

Peanut, caramel, and coriander,
morning glory, Coconut Milk, Sharp Cheddar, and Prunes!

Butterscotch, fried chicken, and SweetTarts...

don't forget Orange Peel, Poppy, oregano, taffy,
bubble gum and anchovies...

And that's just on the first pizza!

LOL!

Here are (64) Modules and *still*
there's nothing really new for dinner man!

(All of a sudden, forty different modules
doesn't sound so crazy does it?)

really?

We're only human!
LOL!

Cheers!


Cynthia

http://www.cyndustries.com/
 





 


From patchell at cox.net  Sun Oct 12 17:25:44 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 08:25:44 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
In-Reply-To: <000b01c39069$f2cef0c0$e9fce73f@home>
References: <200310112349.h9BNngD17773@omail1.walla.co.il>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031012081925.0188beb0@pop.west.cox.net>

For home (i.e. DIY) work I am quite happy with a cheap 20MHz analog 
scope...brand new, they only cost about $400...on the more expensive side, 
pretty much anything that Tektronix ever made is pretty good...some are 
better than other, but overall, I have been pretty happy with 
Tektronix.  You can probably locate some good deals on Tek scopes 
(used).  HP scope, on the other hand (puts on flame retardant suit)....I 
would tend to stay away from....except for their combo Scope/Logic 
analyzer...can't remember the model number...but those are quite nice.

The reality is that in general, you don't need much of a scope for DIY 
synth stuff, and I would stick with analog scopes if you can...they tell 
the truth a lot better (digital scopes can lie through their teeth)....

At 09:38 PM 10/11/2003 -0500, James R. Coplin wrote:

>So, what are some of the recommendations for someone getting into DIY and 
>wanting/needing a scope. I guess my general feel with equipment is that Id 
>rather buy once and be done even if it means laying out more cash and 
>having some growing pains at first as Im flooded with more options then I 
>may need. Ive poked around on ebay and there seems some pretty reasonable 
>deals but I really dont know what Im looking at. Recommendations?
>
>
>
>James R. Coplin
>
>***************
>
>If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
>
>simply tell them i've gone out the window
>
>for a spot of tea and am not
>
>expected back any time soon.
>
>***************

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From jloffink at austin.rr.com  Sun Oct 12 17:33:09 2003
From: jloffink at austin.rr.com (John Loffink)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 10:33:09 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANKEODCDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <002201c390d6$244b1f90$220110ac@john>

Those Web-tronics oscilloscopes are not dependable.  I speak from
experience.  My first one crapped out just under the warranty period.  The
replacement they sent went out in another year, apparently a bad tube this
time.  I doubt this scope ever met its stated specifications, for instance,
the display always dimmed at higher sweep rates.  

 

I settled for a used Tektronix scope off ebay.  You take your chances here
too.  Anything affordable is generally an older model with risk of failure.
But at least these name brand units (Tektronix, HP, LeCroy, Philips) are
better built. 

 

John Loffink

The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site

http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com

The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site

http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Ray Wilson
 

Hi James

 

I would suggest at least (20MHz Dual Trace) this or up (40MHz, 60MHz,
etc...).

 

http://www.web-tronics.com/csi20dutrosw.html

 

Or... you could also go with a PC based scope. Something like this:

 

http://www.web-tronics.com/pcbasdigstor.html

 

Ray

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of James R. Coplin



So, what are some of the recommendations for someone getting into DIY and
wanting/needing a scope. I guess my general feel with equipment is that I'd
rather buy once and be done even if it means laying out more cash and having
some growing pains at first as I'm flooded with more options then I may
need. I've poked around on ebay and there seems some pretty reasonable deals
but I really don't know what I'm looking at. Recommendations?

 

James R. Coplin

 

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From jloffink at austin.rr.com  Sun Oct 12 17:50:41 2003
From: jloffink at austin.rr.com (John Loffink)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 10:50:41 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031012081925.0188beb0@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <002901c390d8$9a1e7990$220110ac@john>

HP 1631D is the earliest combined scope/logic analyzer versions.  I scored
one in perfect in condition with all logic pods for $275.  This unit went
for $13,000 new in 1989.  HP logic analyzer models 1650 and 1660 also have
variations with scope inputs. There's also the mainframe type 16500 system
if you have room to spare.  These are great for troubleshooting logic, 8 to
16 bit microprocessors and slower speed signals like LFOs or envelopes. But
the scope user interface is digital and not conducive to real time trouble
shooting where you're changing sweep rates and volts/division rapidly. 

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com


> 
> (used).  HP scope, on the other hand (puts on flame retardant suit)....I
> would tend to stay away from....except for their combo Scope/Logic
> analyzer...can't remember the model number...but those are quite nice.
> 



From music.maker at gte.net  Sun Oct 12 18:15:29 2003
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 09:15:29 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
Message-ID: <200310121615.h9CGFTI10336@linux6.lan>

I've used Tektronix scopes at work and I agree that they are among the best
and can take quite a physical beating as well.  At home, (years ago), I
built an Eico 460 (460 KILOhertz) kit, single trace and while it worked and
was able to display audio frequency signals, it does not do well with high
frequency (megahertz) noise, ringing, unwanted OpAmp oscillation, etc.  When
the 460 went out last time, I decided to get a new scope.  I bought a dual
trace 20 mHz job from BK Precision (model 2120).  Brand new for $300.  My
opinion is that this would be the minimum scope for analog synth DIY work. 
So far, nothing I've done has been beyond the capability of this scope, eg.
troubleshooting ADSR, VCO, VCF, VCA and microprocessor (MIDI2CV) stuff.

=========================================================  
- Where merit is not rewarded, excellence fades.
- Hydrogen is pointless without solar.
- What good are laws that only lawyers understand?
- The media's credibility should always be questioned.
- Governments do nothing well, save collect taxes.

-- Scott Gravenhorst | LegoManiac / Lego Trains / RIS 1.5
-- Linux Rex         | RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FatMan/
-- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/


From ethan at monsoonmicro.com  Sun Oct 12 18:19:09 2003
From: ethan at monsoonmicro.com (ethan tripp)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:19:09 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?
Message-ID: <CF44A1CA-FCCF-11D7-A02B-0050E499F749@monsoonmicro.com>

this may be slightly OT, but i saw the sun ra arkestra last night, and 
one of the main players was using some kind of instrument that looked 
like a small black box, about 12x1.5x2 inches with knobs on the sides 
and a large knob that hung off the end. he played it by blowing into it 
and using 3 or so holes on the top and one on the bottom knob to play 
notes. the synth aspect of it is that it produced, not a flute sound, 
but a theremin like sound, with flute like flourishes. he never touched 
the knobs on the side, but when he twisted the one on the end it would 
pitch way down into sub-bass land, or way up into chirping bird sounds. 
it was amazing the range and versatility with which he used it. does 
anyone have any idea what this contraption is?

-et-


From lesmizz at scampers.com  Sun Oct 12 18:23:05 2003
From: lesmizz at scampers.com (Les Mizzell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:23:05 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?
In-Reply-To: <CF44A1CA-FCCF-11D7-A02B-0050E499F749@monsoonmicro.com>
References: <CF44A1CA-FCCF-11D7-A02B-0050E499F749@monsoonmicro.com>
Message-ID: <3F897FE9.3000107@scampers.com>

ethan tripp wrote:

> this may be slightly OT, but i saw the sun ra arkestra last night, and 
> one of the main players was using some kind of instrument that looked 
> like a small black box, about 12x1.5x2 inches with knobs on the sides 
> and a large knob that hung off the end. 


A wonderful resource is here:
http://windsynth.org/

You'll find what you're looking for....


-- 
Les Mizzell
-------------------------
?Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
  Virent ova! Viret perna!
  Dapem posthac non arcebo.
  Gratum tibi me praebebo.?


From rayw at csd.net  Sun Oct 12 19:06:10 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:06:10 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
In-Reply-To: <002201c390d6$244b1f90$220110ac@john>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGEOKCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

Garge sales can be a source of scopes. I got my first half decent scope, a
40 MHz Hewlett Packard solid state for $20.00 and it still works.  I went
for one of Circuit Specialist's sales and got a brand new 40MHz with two
pretty nice probes for $239.00. The deal also threw in a half decent DVM for
free. I'll let you know if it dies on me but so far its pretty good.

Ray
  -----Original Message-----
  From: John Loffink [mailto:jloffink at austin.rr.com]
  Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 9:33 AM
  To: 'Ray Wilson'; 'James R. Coplin'; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
  Subject: RE: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?


  Those Web-tronics oscilloscopes are not dependable.  I speak from
experience.  My first one crapped out just under the warranty period.  The
replacement they sent went out in another year, apparently a bad tube this
time.  I doubt this scope ever met its stated specifications, for instance,
the display always dimmed at higher sweep rates.



  I settled for a used Tektronix scope off ebay.  You take your chances here
too.  Anything affordable is generally an older model with risk of failure.
But at least these name brand units (Tektronix, HP, LeCroy, Philips) are
better built.



  John Loffink

  The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site

  http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com

  The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site

  http://www.wavemakers-synth.com



  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Ray Wilson


  Hi James



  I would suggest at least (20MHz Dual Trace) this or up (40MHz, 60MHz,
etc...).



  http://www.web-tronics.com/csi20dutrosw.html



  Or... you could also go with a PC based scope. Something like this:



  http://www.web-tronics.com/pcbasdigstor.html



  Ray





    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of James R. Coplin



    So, what are some of the recommendations for someone getting into DIY
and wanting/needing a scope. I guess my general feel with equipment is that
I'd rather buy once and be done even if it means laying out more cash and
having some growing pains at first as I'm flooded with more options then I
may need. I've poked around on ebay and there seems some pretty reasonable
deals but I really don't know what I'm looking at. Recommendations?



    James R. Coplin


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From gilwein at walla.co.il  Sun Oct 12 19:26:56 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:26:56 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] using aceton to "wash" leaked acid from a PCB
Message-ID: <200310121726.h9CHQuj24070@omail2.walla.co.il>


Hi all,.

I was advised to "wash" the acid leaked from the Nicad battery on my Kawai synth with acetone ...

is that safe ? I know that acetone dessolves plastic

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
http://mail.walla.co.il

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From patchell at cox.net  Sun Oct 12 20:26:34 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:26:34 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] using aceton to "wash" leaked acid from a PCB
In-Reply-To: <200310121726.h9CHQuj24070@omail2.walla.co.il>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031012112352.018d6590@pop.west.cox.net>

It probably is...I have washed boards in MEK....however....acid (well, 
actually NiCads are alkaline, but the same difference) is not soluable in 
accetone, or MEK for that matter....scrub it off with soap and water....use 
a tooth brush (not the one you use to brush your teeth)...

Do a final rinse with purified water (I use the water out of my RO unit for 
this), and if you have compressed air, blow dry the board...

-Jim


At 07:26 PM 10/12/2003 +0200, gilwein at walla.co.il wrote:

>Hi all,.
>
>I was advised to "wash" the acid leaked from the Nicad battery on my Kawai 
>synth with acetone ...
>
>is that safe ? I know that acetone dessolves plastic
>
>
>
>Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
><http://mail.walla.co.il>http://mail.walla.co.il

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Oct 12 20:32:14 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:32:14 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] using aceton to "wash" leaked acid from a PCB
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031012112352.018d6590@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3F899E2D.4034F95F@prodigy.net>

I have not found a chemical that will remove the residue leaked from
a NiCd battery.  IMHO Jim's idea to just wash the area with soap and water
is a good one.  I think the 'chemical' (acid or alkaline... hey didn't he play
for the
Detroit Tigers ???) reaction is already finished..

The leakage (in my case) formed an intermetalic compound that could not be
soldered at normal temperatures.  I cut the runs away from the affected area
and
jumpered around that spot. It has worked ever since without problem.

H^) harry

James Patchell wrote:

> It probably is...I have washed boards in MEK....however....acid (well,
> actually NiCads are alkaline, but the same difference) is not soluable in
> accetone, or MEK for that matter....scrub it off with soap and water....use
> a tooth brush (not the one you use to brush your teeth)...
>
> Do a final rinse with purified water (I use the water out of my RO unit for
> this), and if you have compressed air, blow dry the board...
>
> -Jim
>
> At 07:26 PM 10/12/2003 +0200, gilwein at walla.co.il wrote:
>
> >Hi all,.
> >
> >I was advised to "wash" the acid leaked from the Nicad battery on my Kawai
> >synth with acetone ...
> >
> >is that safe ? I know that acetone dessolves plastic
> >
> >
> >
> >Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
> ><http://mail.walla.co.il>http://mail.walla.co.il
>
>          -Jim
> ***************************************************
> I'm a man
> But I can change
> If I have to
> I guess.
>
> Man's Prayer
> Red Green
>
> ***************************************************
> http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
>
> http://members.cox.net/patchell
>
> ***************************************************


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Oct 12 20:37:59 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:37:59 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
References: <200310112349.h9BNngD17773@omail1.walla.co.il> <5.2.1.1.2.20031012081925.0188beb0@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3F899F86.B26F8BAD@prodigy.net>

Ha... say Jim, you don't have a long lost twin brother, do you ???

I'd agree with Jim. Although I am currently using an HP scope (because
I got it broken and 'unrepairable' by their service dept)... I would prefer
a Tektronix scope.  To me, they are a little easier to work (more intuitive)

We have some HP at work I will NOT use for that reason, One of them has storage

and after an acquisition, if you touch ANY knob except the STOP button, your
last acquisition is erased. The other scopes I've used just apply the action
(such as panning
etc) to the last acquisition.  I cannot afford to lose what may have been a one
shot event
because of some idiot's idea of how a scope should operate.

That said... HP scopes are certainly capable, and some of the older models are
pretty
nice.  I'd just rather have a Tek...

H^) harry

James Patchell wrote:

> For home (i.e. DIY) work I am quite happy with a cheap 20MHz analog
> scope...brand new, they only cost about $400...on the more expensive side,
> pretty much anything that Tektronix ever made is pretty good...some are
> better than other, but overall, I have been pretty happy with
> Tektronix.  You can probably locate some good deals on Tek scopes
> (used).  HP scope, on the other hand (puts on flame retardant suit)....I
> would tend to stay away from....except for their combo Scope/Logic
> analyzer...can't remember the model number...but those are quite nice.
>
> The reality is that in general, you don't need much of a scope for DIY
> synth stuff, and I would stick with analog scopes if you can...they tell
> the truth a lot better (digital scopes can lie through their teeth)....
>
> At 09:38 PM 10/11/2003 -0500, James R. Coplin wrote:
>
> >So, what are some of the recommendations for someone getting into DIY and
> >wanting/needing a scope. I guess my general feel with equipment is that Id
> >rather buy once and be done even if it means laying out more cash and
> >having some growing pains at first as Im flooded with more options then I
> >may need. Ive poked around on ebay and there seems some pretty reasonable
> >deals but I really dont know what Im looking at. Recommendations?
> >
> >
> >
> >James R. Coplin
> >
> >***************
> >
> >If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
> >
> >simply tell them i've gone out the window
> >
> >for a spot of tea and am not
> >
> >expected back any time soon.
> >
> >***************
>
>          -Jim
> ***************************************************
> I'm a man
> But I can change
> If I have to
> I guess.
>
> Man's Prayer
> Red Green
>
> ***************************************************
> http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
>
> http://members.cox.net/patchell
>
> ***************************************************


From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Sun Oct 12 20:55:34 2003
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:55:34 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?
Message-ID: <30.4888cc6a.2cbafda6@aol.com>


In a message dated 10/12/03 9:46:24 AM, lesmizz at scampers.com writes:

<< ethan tripp wrote:


> this may be slightly OT, but i saw the sun ra arkestra last night, and 

> one of the main players was using some kind of instrument that looked 

> like a small black box, about 12x1.5x2 inches with knobs on the sides 

> and a large knob that hung off the end. 

 >>

That would probably have been an old Steiner EVI (Electronic Valve 
Instrument).  It's a little wind-controlled analog synth that was manufactred by Crumar 
in the early 1980's.  Nyle Steiner later redesigned it as a MIDI controller 
and that instrment was made and sold by Akai.  Akai also made a "sax" version of 
it called the EWI.  EVI's are much more rare than EWI's these days.

Michael Bacich


From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Sun Oct 12 21:44:26 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:44:26 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
In-Reply-To: <200310102328.h9ANSWI00374@linux6.lan>
References: <200310102328.h9ANSWI00374@linux6.lan>
Message-ID: <03101221442609.01067@Robert>

On Saturday 11 October 2003 01:28, Scott Gravenhorst wrote:
> I have done so, I use a 32 bit LFSR clocked by a VCO.  I was sort of
> disappointed, to me it sounded much like using a fixed noise
> generator passed through a VCF (LP), CV=pitch.
[...]

For a good practical summary of LFSR, go to http://www.xilinx.com and 
search for application note XAPP052, just skip the device specific 
idiosyncrasies.

A word of caution has to be said for the spectral properties: if you 
take more than one bit out of the LFSR sequence at each clock, then not 
only you'll get non-random sequences, also the spectrum is not white 
any more. Unfortunately it is not predictable what kind of spectrum 
you'll get by tapping off which bits, but you may try anyway and see if 
you get interesting results. The same effect can be had if you chose 
certain feedback points that produces non-maximum sequences.


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

Q series MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfQDocs



From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Sun Oct 12 22:47:40 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:47:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?
References: <CF44A1CA-FCCF-11D7-A02B-0050E499F749@monsoonmicro.com> <3F897FE9.3000107@scampers.com>
Message-ID: <003001c39102$196ad620$3dd84bab@default>

And don't forget this list's own Ian Fritz - Ian has this mastered (don't
forget to check out the sound samples - the expression is absolutely
*uncanny*).

http://home.earthlink.net/~ijfritz/

Cheers,
Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Les Mizzell" <lesmizz at scampers.com>
To: "ethan tripp" <ethan at monsoonmicro.com>
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?


> ethan tripp wrote:
>
> > this may be slightly OT, but i saw the sun ra arkestra last night, and
> > one of the main players was using some kind of instrument that looked
> > like a small black box, about 12x1.5x2 inches with knobs on the sides
> > and a large knob that hung off the end.
>
>
> A wonderful resource is here:
> http://windsynth.org/
>
> You'll find what you're looking for....
>
>
> --
> Les Mizzell
> -------------------------
> ?Mihi placent, O Pincerna!
>   Virent ova! Viret perna!
>   Dapem posthac non arcebo.
>   Gratum tibi me praebebo.?
>
>


From modular at go2.pl  Sun Oct 12 23:02:22 2003
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:02:22 +0200
Subject: Odp: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
References: <000b01c39069$f2cef0c0$e9fce73f@home>
Message-ID: <00bc01c39104$5e40af20$9e2010ac@unregistered.futuro.pl>

if you're prepared to pay more and have a scope for life, I'd vote
for Tektronix, i.e. TDS210. Works excellent and has never failed
me during several years. Shows stuff not possible to see on analog
scopes, like burst of 100ns spikes on 1s/div setting etc.
But it's entry level digital scope, so don't expect miracles.

Roman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: James R. Coplin <moog at qwest.net>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 4:38 AM
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?


> So, what are some of the recommendations for someone getting into DIY
> and wanting/needing a scope. I guess my general feel with equipment is
> that I'd rather buy once and be done even if it means laying out more
> cash and having some growing pains at first as I'm flooded with more
> options then I may need. I've poked around on ebay and there seems some
> pretty reasonable deals but I really don't know what I'm looking at.
> Recommendations?
>  
> James R. Coplin
> ***************
> If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
> simply tell them i've gone out the window
> for a spot of tea and am not 
> expected back any time soon.
> ***************
> 


From modular at go2.pl  Sun Oct 12 23:03:42 2003
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:03:42 +0200
Subject: Odp: [sdiy] polivoks filter
References: <20031010235241.55074.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c39104$615d3160$9e2010ac@unregistered.futuro.pl>

I've seen this done unintentionally years ago. It was state
variable filter made by one of the list members. By simple
mistake it was working without caps, although caps were
included in the design, but not really used.
It sounded basically the same after I redone it to standard
SVF, but of course tuning range had to be shifted down.
I reckon capless filter works using buffer stray capacitance
and variable lag of OTAs dependent on Iabc.
I don't know what I'm talking here...

Roman

----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Dalen <karldalen at yahoo.se>
To: <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de>
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter


> Exactly, listen here to what designer Vladimir Kuzmin
> says at http://www.muztech.ru/eng/history.php
>
> quoute; VCF doesn't have any capacitor at
>         all and use only two op amps.
>
> Now, that's interesting! I wonder how this is done!
> Another interesting thing is the VCA, it has
> differential outputs!
>
> KD
>
>  --- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > I wrote:
> > > The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector
> > board.
> >
> > Oops, no they're not.
> >
> > --
> > uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> > http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>
>
> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html



From rdd at rddavis.org  Sun Oct 12 23:21:02 2003
From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis)
Date: 12 Oct 2003 17:21:02 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] which oscilloscope?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031012081925.0188beb0@pop.west.cox.net>
References: <200310112349.h9BNngD17773@omail1.walla.co.il> <5.2.1.1.2.20031012081925.0188beb0@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20031012212101.GA12185@rhiannon.rddavis.org>

Quothe James Patchell, from writings of Sun, Oct 12, 2003 at 08:25:44AM -0700:
> Tektronix.  You can probably locate some good deals on Tek scopes 
> (used).  HP scope, on the other hand (puts on flame retardant suit)....I 
> would tend to stay away from....except for their combo Scope/Logic 
> analyzer...can't remember the model number...but those are quite nice.

While I don't hesitate to leave my Tek 500 series 'scope's on for an
extended period of time, I hesitate to leave an HP 'scope on
overnight.  Several years ago, I left a HP 1707B 'scope on overnight,
and the HV transformer burned out... it took me years to find a
replacement transformer!  I just found the replacement part this past
year.  The only problem now is that I don't have a schematic and don't
remember which wires from the HV PCB connect where.

Besides, with about 50 glowing tubes/valves, the older Tektronix
'scopes are nice room heaters in the winter. :-)

-- 
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: 
All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 
rdd at rddavis.org  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.


From tania.gallagher at pandora.be  Sun Oct 12 23:41:40 2003
From: tania.gallagher at pandora.be (tania gallagher)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:41:40 +0200
Subject: Odp: [sdiy] polivoks filter
In-Reply-To: <00bd01c39104$615d3160$9e2010ac@unregistered.futuro.pl>
Message-ID: <BBAF9734.EDC%tania.gallagher@pandora.be>

 
I am planning to clean mine tomorrow (the inside that is),
and give it a quick check up..if anyones interested id be more than happy to
make a couple of pictures of the boards in the polivoks. Just let me
know.......

bart

> I've seen this done unintentionally years ago. It was state
> variable filter made by one of the list members. By simple
> mistake it was working without caps, although caps were
> included in the design, but not really used.
> It sounded basically the same after I redone it to standard
> SVF, but of course tuning range had to be shifted down.
> I reckon capless filter works using buffer stray capacitance
> and variable lag of OTAs dependent on Iabc.
> I don't know what I'm talking here...
> 
> Roman
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Karl Dalen <karldalen at yahoo.se>
> To: <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de>
> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 1:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter
> 
> 
>> Exactly, listen here to what designer Vladimir Kuzmin
>> says at http://www.muztech.ru/eng/history.php
>> 
>> quoute; VCF doesn't have any capacitor at
>> all and use only two op amps.
>> 
>> Now, that's interesting! I wonder how this is done!
>> Another interesting thing is the VCA, it has
>> differential outputs!
>> 
>> KD
>> 
>> --- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > I wrote:
>>>> The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector
>>> board.
>>> 
>>> Oops, no they're not.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
>>> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>> 
>> 
>> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
> http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> 



From PRCamann at aol.com  Mon Oct 13 01:27:26 2003
From: PRCamann at aol.com (PRCamann at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:27:26 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?
Message-ID: <185.2198b506.2cbb3d5e@aol.com>

Sounds like one of the original Steiner EVIs.

<A HREF="http://www.synthmuseum.com/stp/stpevi01.html">www.synthmuseum.com/ stp/stpevi01.html</A>  


Paul Camann
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From rdd at rddavis.org  Mon Oct 13 03:01:29 2003
From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis)
Date: 12 Oct 2003 21:01:29 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENICDAA.rayw@csd.net>
References: <00b301c38f91$a6a88e00$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com> <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENICDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <20031013010129.GB12185@rhiannon.rddavis.org>

Quothe Ray Wilson, from writings of Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 08:40:25AM -0600:
> You got it right. Tie the negative ends together (I think this was a Craig
> Anderton tip). When you put caps in series you decrease the capacitance in a

Not sure about it being an Anderton tip, but surely it's been taught,
for many years, as a way of doing things, in basic electronics
classes.  I remember my high-school electronics teacher mentioning
that in the 1970's, and seem to recall reading about it long before
those electronics classes.

> manner similar to the formula for putting resistors in parallel (if you get
> my meaning). In your case you will need to put two 100uF caps in series to
> get 100uF. But this begs the question... 

                                         1
Actually... since the formula is  C = ---------  for two capacitors 
in series...                           1     1
                                      --- + ---
                                      C1    C2

...one would need to use two 200uf capacitors in series; however,
since 200uF isn't a standard value, one may need to use four 100uF
capacitors:

       C1 +  -               C3 -  +
     +-----|(------+      +------)|-----+
  ---+ C2 +  -     +------+  C4 -  +    +-----
     +-----|(------+      +------)|-----+
                                                      1
                                            C = --------------
                                                   1       1
                                                 ----- + -----
                                                 C1+C2   C3+C4


> why don't you just buy some 100uF non-polarized caps?

Oftentimes people might not have those in their spare parts inventory;
it's often a matter of what's easiest, most economical and most
convenient at the time. :-)

-- 
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: 
All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 
rdd at rddavis.org  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Mon Oct 13 03:22:59 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:22:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Capacitorless filters (was:Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter)
In-Reply-To: <000101c38fec$c3de85a0$787fb9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <20031013012259.66038.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- jhaible <jhaible at debitel.net> skrev: > No idea what's inside the
russian parts.
> 
> But the Farfisa Synthorchestra had a 4pole VCF that was built
> without capacitors. It used a quad opamp with
> adjustable internal current sources. And of course there *are*
> capacitors:
> The silicon-made phase compensation that's on chip.

I had that in mind to but quickly realising that having
a production line for 20-25 000 made units relying on 
the phase compensation capacitance wich would in a FET
amp be in the units of pF region i suppose was a bit
hair raising at first thought!

Small capacitors and leakages and temperature shifts
does not sound healty. Well, i dont know much about
silicon process but anyway!

KD
 
> Basically the same structure as an OTA + cap + buffer, only
> scaled down to very small capacitors and very small currents.
> Doesn't work too well at low cuttoff frequencies, no surprise.
> But it's remarkable that it works at all!
>
> JH.
> 
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Karl Dalen <karldalen at yahoo.se>
> An: <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de>
> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Oktober 2003 01:52
> Betreff: Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter
> 
> 
> > Exactly, listen here to what designer Vladimir Kuzmin
> > says at http://www.muztech.ru/eng/history.php
> >
> > quoute; VCF doesn't have any capacitor at
> >         all and use only two op amps.
> >
> > Now, that's interesting! I wonder how this is done!
> > Another interesting thing is the VCA, it has
> > differential outputs!
> >
> > KD
> >
> >  --- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > I wrote:
> > > > The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector
> > > board.
> > >
> > > Oops, no they're not.
> > >
> > > --
> > > uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> > > http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> >
> >
> > H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p?
> adressen
> http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
> >
> 
>  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Mon Oct 13 03:41:40 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:41:40 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place, allmost!
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGENHCDAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <20031013014140.51762.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, lets se, a quick search gave,
http://www.senso.dds.nl/

Wich have outrageous prices ofcourse!

Oh, they have SSM chips to, and CEM's!!

Also at otrageous prices!!

Oh, again, i see that they have Roland
filter and adsr chips to, thats nice for 
those who want to mingle whit these a bit!

KD  
--- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> skrev: > Hi
> 
> Of course you can find the data sheet finding the part is the hard bit.
> 
> Ray
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Karl Dalen
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:40 PM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] mm5837 are all over the place!
> 
> 
> I can find it everywhere!
> 
> For example this:
> 
> http://mohodisco.com/monopoly/pdf/mm5837.pdf
> http://www.chipdocs.com/pndecoder/datasheets/NSC/MM5837.html
> 
> Interesting noise generator page and meaurements including the mm5837.
> 
> http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM
> 
> and so on and on and on! :-)
> 
> BTW the MM5837 are also known as the "catchunka" generator!
> It repeats its shiftregister noise at intervalls, a second or
> so making it a hopeless cirquit, YET it has ben used in
> synthesisers from the past such as P5,Source, Chroma!
> 
> KD
> 
> --- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> skrev: > Hi yasi
> >
> > I couldn't find the MM5837 anywhere. Often when you find that a chip
> is
> > un-findable it is probably a good idea to find another way to
> accomplish
> > the
> > goal or else when your totally cool circuit goes kaput finding a
> > replacement
> > only gets harder and finally impossible.
> >
> > If all you want is noise check this out.
> >
> > http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of yasi perera
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 3:29 AM
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: [sdiy] looking for mm5837
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > just wondering if anybody knows where to get some (~25) mm5837's.
> >
> > thanks,
> > yasi perera
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Help protect your PC.  Get a FREE computer virus scan online from
> > McAfee.
> > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> >
> 
> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p?
> adressen
> http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
>  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Mon Oct 13 03:57:36 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:57:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Radical New Module from Cyndustries! 
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031011102328.00aa0c58@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <BBAF54A0.10DCE%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

http://www.cyndustries.com/

on 10/11/03 6:34 PM, Ian Fritz at ijfritz at earthlink.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> The use of LFO frequencies that  increase with increasing drive frequency
>>> is certainly novel and interesting.  But am I reading this right, there is
>>> no way to turn this feature off?
>> 
>> Well,
>> 
>> If you present a negative voltage to the CV input, the animation will freeze
>> at a fixed timbre which is an interesting feature.
>> 
>> Simon says... FREEZE!
> 
> OK, but this freezes all the animation, right?  I was wondering if it was
> in any way possible to get the 4-LFO animation without the frequency
> tracking.  Might be a good mod for an adventurous DIYer!

Hi Ian!

Yes, by turning the FAT knob down the tracking of the LFOs is no longer
controlled by the internal frequency to voltage converter and you are able
to use the FAT control voltage to control the LFO group speeds externally
with the CV input.

The Animator can be used simply as a sort of "multi Voltage-Controlled LFO"
this way for other purposes too.

I really like your idea of the numerous sync points and can see how that
would be lots of fun!

Reading over the the text on the website, I thought it may have been
interpreted as little arrogant to say ours is superior to ALL other designs.
So we changed the text. Obviously there are zillion other valid
approaches to this circuit, we're just particularly proud of ours!  :)

We could have "cheaped-out" by making the module only a
single channel of animation, but in this economy we were striving to
keep it a single-width module while giving customers the greatest
bang for their buck possible.
 
> Yes it is.  It's still interesting to debate different ways to do the
> trade-offs.

>> Thanks for your comments Ian!
> 
> Thanks for the discussion!

Of course!

Cynthia

http://www.cyndustries.com/




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 13 05:31:57 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:31:57 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
References: <00b301c38f91$a6a88e00$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com> <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENICDAA.rayw@csd.net> <20031013010129.GB12185@rhiannon.rddavis.org>
Message-ID: <3F8A1CAC.892306E0@prodigy.net>

Just for y'all information

The thing to watch out for in making your own "bipolar" electrolytics
is RIPPLE CURRENT.  Commercially available units are actually
rated for ripple current, if you are using them in AC applications
(which is why you need a bipolar in the first place)...

So if you are doing dinky synth-diy circuits you are probably OK...
(since power is low) but if you were doing (let's say) speaker crossover
capacitors .. you damn well better check the ripple current. They will
get hot and can explode.  I've done it myself a few times (but no more)...

Now I use film capacitors... even if I have to put a whole PILE in parallel
to get the uF rating I need...

(moral... purchase your bipolar electrolytics, and carefully)

H^) harry

"R. D. Davis" wrote:

> Quothe Ray Wilson, from writings of Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 08:40:25AM -0600:
> > You got it right. Tie the negative ends together (I think this was a Craig
> > Anderton tip). When you put caps in series you decrease the capacitance in a
>
> Not sure about it being an Anderton tip, but surely it's been taught,
> for many years, as a way of doing things, in basic electronics
> classes.  I remember my high-school electronics teacher mentioning
> that in the 1970's, and seem to recall reading about it long before
> those electronics classes.
>
> > manner similar to the formula for putting resistors in parallel (if you get
> > my meaning). In your case you will need to put two 100uF caps in series to
> > get 100uF. But this begs the question...
>
>                                          1
> Actually... since the formula is  C = ---------  for two capacitors
> in series...                           1     1
>                                       --- + ---
>                                       C1    C2
>
> ...one would need to use two 200uf capacitors in series; however,
> since 200uF isn't a standard value, one may need to use four 100uF
> capacitors:
>
>        C1 +  -               C3 -  +
>      +-----|(------+      +------)|-----+
>   ---+ C2 +  -     +------+  C4 -  +    +-----
>      +-----|(------+      +------)|-----+
>                                                       1
>                                             C = --------------
>                                                    1       1
>                                                  ----- + -----
>                                                  C1+C2   C3+C4
>
> > why don't you just buy some 100uF non-polarized caps?
>
> Oftentimes people might not have those in their spare parts inventory;
> it's often a matter of what's easiest, most economical and most
> convenient at the time. :-)
>
> --
> Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
> All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
> rdd at rddavis.org  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
> http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.


From rdd at rddavis.org  Mon Oct 13 06:29:25 2003
From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis)
Date: 13 Oct 2003 00:29:25 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
In-Reply-To: <3F8A1CAC.892306E0@prodigy.net>
References: <00b301c38f91$a6a88e00$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com> <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENICDAA.rayw@csd.net> <20031013010129.GB12185@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3F8A1CAC.892306E0@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20031013042925.GE12185@rhiannon.rddavis.org>

Quothe harrybissell, from writings of Sun, Oct 12, 2003 at 11:31:57PM -0400:
> Just for y'all information
> 
> The thing to watch out for in making your own "bipolar" electrolytics
> is RIPPLE CURRENT.  Commercially available units are actually
> rated for ripple current, if you are using them in AC applications
> (which is why you need a bipolar in the first place)...

Good point!  Of course, one can find ripple-curruent ratings for
polarized electrolytics as well.  Of course... that's not often the
case for most of the electrolytic caps that many of us keep in our
spare parts inventories.  

> So if you are doing dinky synth-diy circuits you are probably OK...
> (since power is low) but if you were doing (let's say) speaker crossover
> capacitors .. you damn well better check the ripple current. They will
> get hot and can explode.  I've done it myself a few times (but no more)...

That's not usually a good thing.  Of course...  that would be one
creative way for someone to ignite a flash-pot (are those still legal
to build out of black powder?) during a performance. :-)

-- 
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: 
All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 
rdd at rddavis.org  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 13 06:34:12 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:34:12 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of (OT)
References: <00b301c38f91$a6a88e00$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com> <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOENICDAA.rayw@csd.net> <20031013010129.GB12185@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3F8A1CAC.892306E0@prodigy.net> <20031013042925.GE12185@rhiannon.rddavis.org>
Message-ID: <3F8A2B43.C4D82828@prodigy.net>

"R. D. Davis" wrote: <snip>

> That's not usually a good thing.  Of course...  that would be one
> creative way for someone to ignite a flash-pot (are those still legal
> to build out of black powder?) during a performance. :-)
>
>

Hmmm... were they ever legal ?   I opened a show for our college jazz band
in 1974... with a solo performance on my then new PAiA 2720.  The end of
the piece had a series of tapes that were thrown into fast forward to get a sort
of psycho-cresendo.... ending with my signature "space-torpedo" sound. At that
point, three flash-pots were to be detonated.

Of course, this was arranged by the THEATRE dept... who knew the jazz band was a
bunch of pussies (imho, correct) who would not agree to pyrotechnics...  so they
didn't
TELL the jazz band (MUSIC dept).  And the conductor had his baton up, and his butt
stuck out just a little bit right in the path of the central flash pot...

So with a quick backhand gesture to center stage... the flash pots went off.

Did you ever see the Coyote (Road Runner cartoons) just after some of those
explosives
backfire on him ??? sort of blackened with wisps of smoke ???  It took the jazz
band at least
a couple of measures of stunned silence before they jumped into their first tune.

(Later, the pussies complained that they might have been hurt, their instruments
might have been
hurt... the only one with a valid complaint was the conductor whose pants were a
bit singed...)

<bfg>

H^) harry


From rayw at csd.net  Mon Oct 13 07:22:57 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:22:57 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of (OT)
In-Reply-To: <3F8A2B43.C4D82828@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEPDCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

That was a great story LOL. On the subject capacitors I wish I had been
quoted on my corrected version. So for the record "two 200uF caps in series
will give 100uF."

Caps do vent...

I was running a power amplifer through some 1000uF electo caps in series
with a large coil wrapped aroung a 10" wide tube of plexiglass to do some
magnetic field testing of a pacer in an alternating magnetic field. I had my
face right next to the cap when it vented a plume of probably the most toxic
gas you can imagine. I still wonder if I'm going to come down with something
from that and it was years ago. My workmates got a good laugh though.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 10:34 PM
To: R. D. Davis
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of (OT)


"R. D. Davis" wrote: <snip>

> That's not usually a good thing.  Of course...  that would be one
> creative way for someone to ignite a flash-pot (are those still legal
> to build out of black powder?) during a performance. :-)
>
>

Hmmm... were they ever legal ?   I opened a show for our college jazz band
in 1974... with a solo performance on my then new PAiA 2720.  The end of
the piece had a series of tapes that were thrown into fast forward to get a
sort
of psycho-cresendo.... ending with my signature "space-torpedo" sound. At
that
point, three flash-pots were to be detonated.

Of course, this was arranged by the THEATRE dept... who knew the jazz band
was a
bunch of pussies (imho, correct) who would not agree to pyrotechnics...  so
they
didn't
TELL the jazz band (MUSIC dept).  And the conductor had his baton up, and
his butt
stuck out just a little bit right in the path of the central flash pot...

So with a quick backhand gesture to center stage... the flash pots went off.

Did you ever see the Coyote (Road Runner cartoons) just after some of those
explosives
backfire on him ??? sort of blackened with wisps of smoke ???  It took the
jazz
band at least
a couple of measures of stunned silence before they jumped into their first
tune.

(Later, the pussies complained that they might have been hurt, their
instruments
might have been
hurt... the only one with a valid complaint was the conductor whose pants
were a
bit singed...)

<bfg>

H^) harry


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Mon Oct 13 10:29:49 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:29:49 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: lap top battery repelacement
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38EFB@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

I have a very old lap top computer, which serves well for electronic
music during holiday. 

The accumulator is -however- over it's life time, it can not be charged.
Now I wonder if I should open the cartrige and replace the individual
cells, or simply develop an external thing that can be plugged in  instead
of the PSU.

I'll guess I go for NiMh cells, does somebody know a charging circuit?
A a web page that deals with replacing worn out acuumulators?

Thanx.

m.c.


From _nial_ at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 13 10:47:09 2003
From: _nial_ at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Ekdahl?=)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:47:09 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator
In-Reply-To: <3F88907A.2040507@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <20031013084709.58839.qmail@web40605.mail.yahoo.com>

For me, imagining the 4069 without the 'squarewave
shaper' part (discard everything from the 47k resistor
and down) made it really easy understanding the basics
of a VCO.

/Karl

 --- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > The
D.U.G. wrote:
> > Does anybody have a good simple oscillator circuit
> for a beginner?
> > 
> > Also, are their any good forums and/or other good
> online resources for diy
> > schematics and/or parts(surplus)?
> > 
> 
> Maybe you want to take a look at the VCO4069 at my
> site, this is really 
> as simple as it can get.
> 
> Cheers,
>   Ren?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> 
> 
>  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From yves.usson at imag.fr  Mon Oct 13 12:07:01 2003
From: yves.usson at imag.fr (Yves Usson)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:07:01 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] dual gate MOSFET for VCF/VCA ?
Message-ID: <FD12B3EA-FD64-11D7-AE75-000A959F6390@imag.fr>

Hi

As someone tried to design a simple VCA or a VCF using dual gate 
MOSFETs as
transconductance cells ?

These trannies are currently used for RF, would them be usable for SDIY 
?
Are there some particular issues having to do with distortion or non 
linearities ?

It is an open question for Gurus. May be R.A; Pease wrote an enlightning
"What's all this dual gate MOSFETs stuff, anyhow?"  ?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Yves Usson

Lab. TIMC UMR5525 CNRS
Institut d'Ing?ni?rie et de l'Information de Sant? (IN3S)
Facult? de M?decine
Domaine de la Merci
38706 La Tronche cedex

email : yves.usson at imag.fr, yves.usson at ujf-grenoble.fr

tel.  (+33) (0)456 520 074
fax.  (+33) (0)456 520 022


From don at till.com  Mon Oct 13 12:07:11 2003
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: 13 Oct 2003 03:07:11 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?
In-Reply-To: <30.4888cc6a.2cbafda6@aol.com> (WeAreAs1@aol.com)
References: <30.4888cc6a.2cbafda6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m265it30z4.fsf@till.com>

   > From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com
   > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:55:34 EDT
   > 
   > ethan tripp wrote:
   > 
   > > this may be slightly OT, but i saw the sun ra arkestra last
   > > night, and one of the main players was using some kind of
   > > instrument that looked like a small black box, about 12x1.5x2
   > > inches with knobs on the sides and a large knob that hung off
   > > the end.
   > 
   > That would probably have been an old Steiner EVI (Electronic
   > Valve Instrument).

I agree.  

Trumpet player Mike Metheny (Pat Metheny's brother) is probably the
most notable musician playing the Steiner EVI.  There's a photo of him
with it in the 'bio' section of his web site.

http://www.mikemetheny.com

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com


From houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp  Mon Oct 13 14:00:43 2003
From: houshu at muj.biglobe.ne.jp (HOSHUYAMA)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:00:43 +0900
Subject: Capacitorless filters (was:Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter)
References: <20031013012259.66038.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3F8A93EB.A2DEA9D4@muj.biglobe.ne.jp>

Hello List,

There are theories called "Active-R filter" and "Active-R oscillator" 
which directly use the dominant pole of a opamp to form a filter, 
though their main applications are RF.  Of course, it's a modern 
technique and I don't think it was used in Polivoks.  

Sam Hoshuyama
Kawasaki, JAPAN

Karl Dalen wrote:
> 
>  --- jhaible <jhaible at debitel.net> skrev: > No idea what's inside the
> russian parts.
> >
> > But the Farfisa Synthorchestra had a 4pole VCF that was built
> > without capacitors. It used a quad opamp with
> > adjustable internal current sources. And of course there *are*
> > capacitors:
> > The silicon-made phase compensation that's on chip.
> 
> I had that in mind to but quickly realising that having
> a production line for 20-25 000 made units relying on
> the phase compensation capacitance wich would in a FET
> amp be in the units of pF region i suppose was a bit
> hair raising at first thought!
> 
> Small capacitors and leakages and temperature shifts
> does not sound healty. Well, i dont know much about
> silicon process but anyway!
> 
> KD
> 
> > Basically the same structure as an OTA + cap + buffer, only
> > scaled down to very small capacitors and very small currents.
> > Doesn't work too well at low cuttoff frequencies, no surprise.
> > But it's remarkable that it works at all!
> >
> > JH.
> >
> > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Karl Dalen <karldalen at yahoo.se>
> > An: <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de>
> > Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Oktober 2003 01:52
> > Betreff: Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter
> >
> >
> > > Exactly, listen here to what designer Vladimir Kuzmin
> > > says at http://www.muztech.ru/eng/history.php
> > >
> > > quoute; VCF doesn't have any capacitor at
> > >         all and use only two op amps.
> > >
> > > Now, that's interesting! I wonder how this is done!
> > > Another interesting thing is the VCA, it has
> > > differential outputs!
> > >
> > > KD
> > >
> > >  --- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > I wrote:
> > > > > The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector
> > > > board.
> > > >
> > > > Oops, no they're not.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> > > > http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> > >
> > >
> > > H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p?

> > adressen
> > http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From jhaible at debitel.net  Mon Oct 13 14:10:40 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 13 Oct 2003 14:10:40 +0200
Subject: Capacitorless filters (was:Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter)
In-Reply-To: <3F8A93EB.A2DEA9D4@muj.biglobe.ne.jp>
References: <20031013012259.66038.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> <3F8A93EB.A2DEA9D4@muj.biglobe.ne.jp>
Message-ID: <1066047040.3f8a964075c22@www.debitel.net>


> There are theories called "Active-R filter" and "Active-R oscillator" 
> which directly use the dominant pole of a opamp to form a filter, 
> though their main applications are RF.  Of course, it's a modern 
> technique and I don't think it was used in Polivoks.


I think it's pretty old (even as old as dominant pole 
compensation?). Farfisa was one example; Sennheiser Vocoder 
is another one. (The latter would more precisely be called 
"capacitorless lossy integrator".) Or think of that Digisound (sp?)
Wavetable oscillator, where a low slew rate opamp interpolates
between samples.

I agree about the HF applications, though. Doesn't work down
to low frequencies because of the low currents and/or high gain
that would be required.

JH.



  
> 
> Sam Hoshuyama
> Kawasaki, JAPAN
> 
> Karl Dalen wrote:
> > 
> >  --- jhaible <jhaible at debitel.net> skrev: > No idea what's inside the
> > russian parts.
> > >
> > > But the Farfisa Synthorchestra had a 4pole VCF that was built
> > > without capacitors. It used a quad opamp with
> > > adjustable internal current sources. And of course there *are*
> > > capacitors:
> > > The silicon-made phase compensation that's on chip.
> > 
> > I had that in mind to but quickly realising that having
> > a production line for 20-25 000 made units relying on
> > the phase compensation capacitance wich would in a FET
> > amp be in the units of pF region i suppose was a bit
> > hair raising at first thought!
> > 
> > Small capacitors and leakages and temperature shifts
> > does not sound healty. Well, i dont know much about
> > silicon process but anyway!
> > 
> > KD
> > 
> > > Basically the same structure as an OTA + cap + buffer, only
> > > scaled down to very small capacitors and very small currents.
> > > Doesn't work too well at low cuttoff frequencies, no surprise.
> > > But it's remarkable that it works at all!
> > >
> > > JH.
> > >
> > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: Karl Dalen <karldalen at yahoo.se>
> > > An: <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de>
> > > Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > > Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Oktober 2003 01:52
> > > Betreff: Re: [sdiy] polivoks filter
> > >
> > >
> > > > Exactly, listen here to what designer Vladimir Kuzmin
> > > > says at http://www.muztech.ru/eng/history.php
> > > >
> > > > quoute; VCF doesn't have any capacitor at
> > > >         all and use only two op amps.
> > > >
> > > > Now, that's interesting! I wonder how this is done!
> > > > Another interesting thing is the VCA, it has
> > > > differential outputs!
> > > >
> > > > KD
> > > >
> > > >  --- Ren?_Schmitz <uzs159 at uni-bonn.de> skrev: > I wrote:
> > > > > > The filter caps are not on the filter board, but on the connector
> > > > > board.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oops, no they're not.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> > > > > http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p?
> 
> > > adressen
> > > http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
> http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
> 
> 




-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From aaron at receive-transmit.com  Mon Oct 13 16:05:09 2003
From: aaron at receive-transmit.com (Aaron Day)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:05:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Berlin modulars?
Message-ID: <4195535A-FD86-11D7-9DF4-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>

Hi all.

Does anybody know of a Berlin modular/DIY group?
If so/not is anyone interested in getting together for a osc-meltdown?

Rather than a big synth-diy meeting sort of thing I thought it would be 
fun to gather at a studio or club and make a laid-back evening of 
sound/noise as a group.

I have a small studio in P-berg that could be used--I'm guessing there 
are others in the area.

tch?ss,

ad



From PRCamann at aol.com  Mon Oct 13 17:29:24 2003
From: PRCamann at aol.com (PRCamann at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:29:24 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?
Message-ID: <190BD490.0D8A4B3A.00774AE8@aol.com>


-------------- next part --------------
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Subject: Re: [sdiy] Sun Ra Synth Flute?
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:27:26 EDT
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From tania.gallagher at pandora.be  Mon Oct 13 17:31:38 2003
From: tania.gallagher at pandora.be (tania gallagher)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:31:38 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] anybody know what this is?
Message-ID: <BBB091FA.EF7%tania.gallagher@pandora.be>

i?ve just seen this on ebay... seller claims it could be a formant,i think,
as i?m not good at German.......

Anybody know what it is. Kind of looks diy.



http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2564591763&category=46947

bart




From david.k.cornutt at boeing.com  Mon Oct 13 17:34:34 2003
From: david.k.cornutt at boeing.com (Cornutt, David K)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:34:34 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Making a NP electrolytic out of two Polarized caps?
Message-ID: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DA5@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>

From: harrybissell [mailto:harrybissell at prodigy.net]
> The thing to watch out for in making your own "bipolar" electrolytics
> is RIPPLE CURRENT.  [...] They will
> get hot and can explode.  I've done it myself a few times 

One more point: don't try this trick with tantalum types!
(Unless you really want to see some fireworks...)
 


From jhaible at debitel.net  Mon Oct 13 17:40:09 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 13 Oct 2003 17:40:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] anybody know what this is?
In-Reply-To: <BBB091FA.EF7%tania.gallagher@pandora.be>
References: <BBB091FA.EF7%tania.gallagher@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <1066059609.3f8ac759a404f@www.debitel.net>

>From the module description, this looks like a Formant indeed.
Formant doesn't mean that it was built from a kit / original 
faceplates etc., however !!
Please note that this is sold as "defekt", i.e. not working.

JH.



> i?ve just seen this on ebay... seller claims it could be a formant,i think,
> as i?m not good at German.......
> 
> Anybody know what it is. Kind of looks diy.
> 
> 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2564591763&category=46947
> 
> bart
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From bobo at decapod.net  Mon Oct 13 22:09:40 2003
From: bobo at decapod.net (Bob Roesler)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:09:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] free stuff: San Francisco area
Message-ID: <005d01c391c5$f018d550$6401a8c0@killerobot.com>

Hi all,

I'm moving out of my place, going on the road for a few months, and am
kind of cleaning up mu stuff.

I have a handful of things I don't want to put into storage, and am
offering them FREE to anyone willing to pick them up.

I don't want to ship, and I don't want to break them up, all or nothing,
please.

Here's the list:

76x: close frame 1/4" jacks. These, I believe, are Switchcraft, they
came with a bunch of MOTM kits I built, but I use bananas.

74x: open frame Switchcraft mini jacks. Newark# 39F744

24x: close frame mini jacks (believed to be Switchcraft)

24x: open frame mini jacks (manufacturer/source unknown)

5x; Bourns 10k 10 turn wirewound pots Digikey pt# 3590S-1-103-ND

1x: Bourns 100k 10 turn wirewound pot Digikey # 359S-2-104-ND

5x: Precision Electronic Components 1k carbon 1/2W pots Digikey#
RVL6L-103C-ND

10x: 10k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-103-ND

5x: 100k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-104-ND

2x: 5k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-502-ND

1x: FracRack enclosure

6x: 2U FracRack blank panels

1x: Blacet PS500 +/-15v at 500mA power supply

2x: Avel 2x22v 160vA torroidal transformers

1x: Avel 2x20v 50vA torroidal transformer

4x: Talema(?) 2x18v 1.944vA torroidal transformers Digikey part#
TE62074-ND

Thanks,
Bob
(415)885-2107

I'm around day and night (more or less) while I'm packing.


From bobo at decapod.net  Tue Oct 14 00:04:57 2003
From: bobo at decapod.net (Bob Roesler)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:04:57 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] free stuff: San Francisco area
In-Reply-To: <005d01c391c5$f018d550$6401a8c0@killerobot.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c391d6$0ae05a10$6401a8c0@killerobot.com>

Hi,

I've had four responses so far. And I'm holding everything on a first
response, first served basis. The first to respond is scheduled to swing
by tomorrow evening. 

If for some reason all four people are one by one unable to pick it up,
I'll repost. 

But for now, it looks the package is spoken for.

Thanks for the responses, and for helping me clear out,
Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Bob Roesler
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 1:10 PM
To: sdiy
Subject: [sdiy] free stuff: San Francisco area


Hi all,

I'm moving out of my place, going on the road for a few months, and am
kind of cleaning up mu stuff.

I have a handful of things I don't want to put into storage, and am
offering them FREE to anyone willing to pick them up.

I don't want to ship, and I don't want to break them up, all or nothing,
please.

Here's the list:

76x: close frame 1/4" jacks. These, I believe, are Switchcraft, they
came with a bunch of MOTM kits I built, but I use bananas.

74x: open frame Switchcraft mini jacks. Newark# 39F744

24x: close frame mini jacks (believed to be Switchcraft)

24x: open frame mini jacks (manufacturer/source unknown)

5x; Bourns 10k 10 turn wirewound pots Digikey pt# 3590S-1-103-ND

1x: Bourns 100k 10 turn wirewound pot Digikey # 359S-2-104-ND

5x: Precision Electronic Components 1k carbon 1/2W pots Digikey#
RVL6L-103C-ND

10x: 10k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-103-ND

5x: 100k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-104-ND

2x: 5k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-502-ND

1x: FracRack enclosure

6x: 2U FracRack blank panels

1x: Blacet PS500 +/-15v at 500mA power supply

2x: Avel 2x22v 160vA torroidal transformers

1x: Avel 2x20v 50vA torroidal transformer

4x: Talema(?) 2x18v 1.944vA torroidal transformers Digikey part#
TE62074-ND

Thanks,
Bob
(415)885-2107

I'm around day and night (more or less) while I'm packing.


From jmahoney at gate.net  Tue Oct 14 00:42:03 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:42:03 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] free stuff: San Francisco area
References: <000c01c391d6$0ae05a10$6401a8c0@killerobot.com>
Message-ID: <02ea01c391db$396b1410$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

The winner should at least bring a 6-pack or Chinese take-out or something.
*

Enjoy your few months on the road, Bob.
--
john

* I'm just jealous, of course! :-)


From rayw at csd.net  Tue Oct 14 00:57:43 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:57:43 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] free stuff: San Francisco area
In-Reply-To: <005d01c391c5$f018d550$6401a8c0@killerobot.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANAEPMCDAA.rayw@csd.net>

It almost made me want to move there. You are bring Christmas to someone
early this year. You are a generous soul and you are definitely building up
some Karma points here. Enjoy your trip.

Cheers

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Bob Roesler
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:10 PM
To: sdiy
Subject: [sdiy] free stuff: San Francisco area


Hi all,

I'm moving out of my place, going on the road for a few months, and am
kind of cleaning up mu stuff.

I have a handful of things I don't want to put into storage, and am
offering them FREE to anyone willing to pick them up.

I don't want to ship, and I don't want to break them up, all or nothing,
please.

Here's the list:

76x: close frame 1/4" jacks. These, I believe, are Switchcraft, they
came with a bunch of MOTM kits I built, but I use bananas.

74x: open frame Switchcraft mini jacks. Newark# 39F744

24x: close frame mini jacks (believed to be Switchcraft)

24x: open frame mini jacks (manufacturer/source unknown)

5x; Bourns 10k 10 turn wirewound pots Digikey pt# 3590S-1-103-ND

1x: Bourns 100k 10 turn wirewound pot Digikey # 359S-2-104-ND

5x: Precision Electronic Components 1k carbon 1/2W pots Digikey#
RVL6L-103C-ND

10x: 10k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-103-ND

5x: 100k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-104-ND

2x: 5k Bourns plastic sealed pots Digikey# 3310C-1-502-ND

1x: FracRack enclosure

6x: 2U FracRack blank panels

1x: Blacet PS500 +/-15v at 500mA power supply

2x: Avel 2x22v 160vA torroidal transformers

1x: Avel 2x20v 50vA torroidal transformer

4x: Talema(?) 2x18v 1.944vA torroidal transformers Digikey part#
TE62074-ND

Thanks,
Bob
(415)885-2107

I'm around day and night (more or less) while I'm packing.


From synthos at xs4all.nl  Tue Oct 14 02:58:45 2003
From: synthos at xs4all.nl (Dave Krooshof)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:58:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] 10 step sequencer
Message-ID: <p05100304bbb0f58b2e53@[10.0.0.158]>

Hi there.

I'm looking for a sequencing IC for a little pulse AM thingy I'm 
erxperimenting with.
I'm looking for a [1 input, more outputs] IC that's able to do this:

On every pulse it gets, it should set this pulse on the next output.
The pulse it receives, will be 5 to 7 ms wide.
The pulserate on it's input might be as high as every 10ms.
The IC should have 8 or 10 outputs, 16 outputs is also OK.
The pulse on the outputs should rotate over these outputs.
The pulsewidth should be equal to the clock/trigger pulse (5 to 7ms)
No more then 1 output at a time may send a logical 1 out.
Powersupply will be + and - 9 volts from 2 batteries.

Do you guys (m/f) know of a IC that's able to do this?

For low power consumption, I prefer a "one stone" sollution.
I also was thinking of converting a digital counter, but then I worry
about the pulsewidth, which is kinda important to me.

Thanks in advance!
-- 
--

groets,

_          >^v<        _

website http://www.dendriet.nl


From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Tue Oct 14 03:27:45 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:27:45 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] 10 step sequencer
In-Reply-To: <p05100304bbb0f58b2e53@[10.0.0.158]>
Message-ID: <BBB09F21.DCEE%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

Dave Krooshof wrote:

> The pulsewidth should be equal to the clock/trigger pulse (5 to 7ms)


I don't understand what this means.   Do you mean the stage gate outputs
should be pulse outputs?


From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Tue Oct 14 04:12:08 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:12:08 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] 10 step sequencer
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D76C@SBIEXCHANGE>

Hey Dave,

Just off the top of my head...

I think what you want is something like a sequencer that just makes one
output high, and cycles to the next output on each clock pulse. Right? 

The simplest solution would be to use a 4017 decade counter. This is a chip
that accepts a clock input and makes 1 of 10 outputs high in sequence. You
can limit the count to (for example) 8 steps by tying the 9th output of the
multiplexer to the RESET input. You can keep the output pulse the same width
as the clock input by simply running the output pulse and the clock into an
AND gate (a trick used in the ARP analog sequencer). Unfortunately, this
will require 10 AND gates if you want to the outputs separate. An easier
method might be to run +V and the clock input into an AND gate and run the
output of that gate into the ENABLE input on the counter. I'm pretty sure
that would do the trick, but I'd want to breadboard it before I could
guarantee that. 

You could also use a multiplexer chip (available with 8 or 16 outputs)
driven by a 4 bit binary counter. For each clock pulse to the counter, the
binary count will advance once and select the next output on the
multiplexer. This is the way most analog sequencers work. The advantage of
this is that you can use an analog multiplexer (to switch CVs or other
analog signals), and take advantage of the 8 and 16 output multiplexers
available, and get the counter to count up and/or down (the 4017 only goes
up). I still think the 4017 is the best bet for your application.

If you want, I'll try to look up some specific part numbers. But it sounds
like you need just the basic guts of a sequencer. I don't think you'll have
any problems to get CMOS parts to run on +/-9V. I'm sure other members will
have suggestions too.

Tim Servo


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Krooshof [mailto:synthos at xs4all.nl]
> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 5:59 PM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] 10 step sequencer
> 
> Hi there.
> 
> I'm looking for a sequencing IC for a little pulse AM thingy I'm
> erxperimenting with.
> I'm looking for a [1 input, more outputs] IC that's able to do this:
> 
> On every pulse it gets, it should set this pulse on the next output.
> The pulse it receives, will be 5 to 7 ms wide.
> The pulserate on it's input might be as high as every 10ms.
> The IC should have 8 or 10 outputs, 16 outputs is also OK.
> The pulse on the outputs should rotate over these outputs.
> The pulsewidth should be equal to the clock/trigger pulse (5 to 7ms)
> No more then 1 output at a time may send a logical 1 out.
> Powersupply will be + and - 9 volts from 2 batteries.
> 
> Do you guys (m/f) know of a IC that's able to do this?
> 
> For low power consumption, I prefer a "one stone" sollution.
> I also was thinking of converting a digital counter, but then I worry
> about the pulsewidth, which is kinda important to me.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> --
> --
> 
> groets,
> 
> _          >^v<        _
> 
> website http://www.dendriet.nl



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recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in
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From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Tue Oct 14 05:04:53 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:04:53 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] 10 step sequencer
In-Reply-To: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D76C@SBIEXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <BBB0B5E5.DCFC%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

Tim Parkhurst wrote:

> You could also use a multiplexer chip (available with 8 or 16 outputs)
> driven by a 4 bit binary counter. For each clock pulse to the counter, the
> binary count will advance once and select the next output on the
> multiplexer.

Trade secrets withstanding, this is how Milton handles it.  A serial 30ms
pulse going into a 4516 then into two 4051s.  'course, you could use one
4067 instead of two 4051s (that's a single 16 step multiplexer instead of
two cascaded 8 steppers).

As far as the short input pulse - it's the best way to handle counting as it
prevents unwanted oddball logic states from popping up from multiple inputs
active at the same time when you don't want them, which you don't as they
are a bitch to troubleshoot unless you have an elevendy-million channel
scope that's faster than a Saturn V..

As far as the short output pulse, you're going to have to make that happen
as the counter outs will stay at logic 1 for the duration of the time each
given stage is active.  You want it this way, unless you want the voltage at
your pot to disappear before the next stage fires up.  Just run the stage
output to a one shot, or through a couple of npns with an R/C tied to the
base of the first (determines the pulse width you're after) and the second
used to put it back into phase with the counter.

You're gonna have to bump up the drive of the counter  if you're planning on
more than one bank - an 4050 or a tranny for each output will do the trick
nicely.

Word of warning from the initiated:  If you are planning on breadboarding
this, do yourself a favor and lay out the multiplexr/counter pair as close
as possible to one another physically to keep your wire length as short as
possible. Also try to limit any wires coming to both from crossing over each
other.  I know, I know - tall order.  But counters are like racehorses at
the line.  They sit there waiting for the slightest little pulse to take
off.  Crossed unshielded wires can set them off.  Been there, done that.

hope this helps,

Peter


From synth1 at airmail.net  Tue Oct 14 08:55:35 2003
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 01:55:35 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Mildly interesting MOTM-480 plots
Message-ID: <000701c39220$2f14b1c0$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>

Here are some different plots of the MOTM-480 VCF, which is a clone of the Yamaha CS-80 filter
section. The filter structure is 2 state-variable filters in series, but with independent
resonance and cutoff frequency panel controls. The patched control voltages (cutoff and
resonance) add/subtract an *offset* from the panel settings. You can get all types of filter
curves, as the graphs show.

There are 2 documents: the MS Word version is easier to read and 1/10th the size of the PDF (PDF
does NOT like BMP files!)

MS Word (150K): www.synthtech.com/files/m480.doc

PDF (1.3MB): www.synthtech.com/files/m480.pdf

Sound examples in a few weeks as the tweaking begins :)

Plots generated on an Audio Precision Series 2 DSP analyzer (www.audioprecision.com)

Paul S.


From rand at ling.umu.se  Tue Oct 14 14:14:40 2003
From: rand at ling.umu.se (Ola Andersson)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:14:40 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] My synth
Message-ID: <200310141214.h9ECEde0025344@mail.umu.se>

Hi list!
I've been lurking here a couple of weeks and just want to invite everyone to 
look at my synthpage here: http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy
I have built a little portable synth which I'm currently upgrading with more 
features. I'm also working on a larger modular synth project.
I'm not very good at designing my own circuits (yet), but I have many ideas 
of stuff I want to do in the future.
-- 
Ola Andersson
http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy


From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Oct 14 16:12:11 2003
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Oakley Sound)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:12:11 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] New CD out
Message-ID: <004601c3925d$35e32bc0$6570fea9@oemcomputer>

http://www.oakleysound.com/music.htm

Loads of Oakley Modular noodles and gratuitous soloing...

The new CD is called '1632' and is available now for 10UKP including
shipping.

http://www.oakleysound.com/1632.htm

Regards,

Tony Allgood                         www.oakleysound.co.uk

Oakley Modular Synthesisers      Penrith, Cumbria, England


From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Tue Oct 14 18:02:12 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:02:12 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My synth
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D76D@SBIEXCHANGE>

Hey Ola!

Neat stuff. I like your "Mini-oo." Congratulations on an interesting take on
the classic Mini. Another interesting thing about your site: when I visit
it, I get pop up ads in Swedish! Again, nice site. Thanks for sharing. :)


Tim Servo
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein


************************************************
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ola Andersson [mailto:rand at ling.umu.se]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:15 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] My synth
> 
> Hi list!
> I've been lurking here a couple of weeks and just want to invite everyone
> to
> look at my synthpage here: http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy
> I have built a little portable synth which I'm currently upgrading with
> more
> features. I'm also working on a larger modular synth project.
> I'm not very good at designing my own circuits (yet), but I have many
> ideas
> of stuff I want to do in the future.
> --
> Ola Andersson
> http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy



***************************************************************************
This message is confidential.  The information contained in
this e-mail message is intended only for confidential use of the
recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in
error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in
error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original
message.
***************************************************************************



From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Tue Oct 14 18:51:51 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:51:51 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] 10 step sequencer
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D76F@SBIEXCHANGE>

> You can keep the output pulse the same
> width as the clock input by simply running the output pulse and the clock
> into an
> AND gate (a trick used in the ARP analog sequencer). Unfortunately, this
> will require 10 AND gates if you want to the outputs separate. An easier
> method might be to run +V and the clock input into an AND gate and run the
> output of that gate into the ENABLE input on the counter. I'm pretty sure
> that would do the trick, but I'd want to breadboard it before I could
> guarantee that.
> 

Now that I look at it. I'm pretty sure this last trick wont work. It looks
like the ENABLE input on the 4017 holds the selected output high. I was
thinking it turned the outputs on and off, but it doesn't. Looks like the
AND gate trick is the easiest. The 4081 is a quad CMOS AND gate, so you
would need three of these to control all ten outputs.

Tim Servo
"Without a struggle, there can be no progress." -Frederick Douglass



***************************************************************************
This message is confidential.  The information contained in
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error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
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***************************************************************************



From jays at aracnet.com  Tue Oct 14 19:38:41 2003
From: jays at aracnet.com (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:38:41 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] OT: DX7II Battery?
Message-ID: <GIENKCIFHELNLLEPMBNMOEMFCMAA.jays@aracnet.com>

Howdy,

We'll this has to do with synths but the digital flavor.

The battery in my DX7II went dead and I opened it up to replace it. It has a
standard CR2032 litium cell which has no solder tabs. BUT! It looks like
they spot welded solder tabs on to it. I found some on the Digikey WEB site
with the same solder tabs but the mAh are about 1/4 that of the CR2032. I
also looked into putting in a battery holder but all the ones I could find
have 20mm lead spacing vs the 10mm the battery has.

So would someone have already done a replacement and have a sub?

The battery is a standard 20mm button cell in diameter with the solder tabs
about 10mm apart (edge to center). The CR2032 is rated at ~220mAh so
something better than that.

I could always kludge something up but want to avoid it if I can.

Thanks much.
Jay



From jdec at mindspring.com  Tue Oct 14 19:54:43 2003
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:54:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [sdiy] OT: DX7II Battery?
Message-ID: <7939182.1066154142515.JavaMail.root@wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net>

See if you can find some vacant room in the chassis to mount a battery holder and then 
simply run wires from the holder to the two solder pads on the PCB....

Changing a battery from a holder is MUCH easier down the road....

This is what I did when the soldered battery in my MemoryMoog went belly up....

Jeff




From grichter at asapnet.net  Tue Oct 14 20:51:56 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:51:56 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] OT: DX7II Battery?
In-Reply-To: <GIENKCIFHELNLLEPMBNMOEMFCMAA.jays@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <BBB1AFFC.3EC01%grichter@asapnet.net>

Use the CR2032 socket from Radio Shack. You only need to solder one of the
20mm terminals as current is nonexistent. Cut off the other terminal and
insulate and reinforce with silicone bathtub caulk (RTV).

Have used this technique on all 8 sections of a TX-816 (rack mount DX7).

> From: "Jay Schwichtenberg" <jays at aracnet.com>
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:38:41 -0700
> To: "Synth-DIY" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: [sdiy] OT: DX7II Battery?
> 
> Howdy,
> 
> We'll this has to do with synths but the digital flavor.
> 
> The battery in my DX7II went dead and I opened it up to replace it. It has a
> standard CR2032 litium cell which has no solder tabs. BUT! It looks like
> they spot welded solder tabs on to it. I found some on the Digikey WEB site
> with the same solder tabs but the mAh are about 1/4 that of the CR2032. I
> also looked into putting in a battery holder but all the ones I could find
> have 20mm lead spacing vs the 10mm the battery has.
> 
> So would someone have already done a replacement and have a sub?
> 
> The battery is a standard 20mm button cell in diameter with the solder tabs
> about 10mm apart (edge to center). The CR2032 is rated at ~220mAh so
> something better than that.
> 
> I could always kludge something up but want to avoid it if I can.
> 
> Thanks much.
> Jay
> 
> 
> 


From synthos at xs4all.nl  Tue Oct 14 23:17:00 2003
From: synthos at xs4all.nl (Dave Krooshof)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:17:00 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Re: 10 step sequencer
Message-ID: <p0510030abbb218308d84@[10.0.0.158]>

Thanks for looking into this, guys.

>  Now that I look at it. I'm pretty sure this last trick wont work.
That's where I ended up as well, without breadboarding it.
The enabler disables the counting, if I understand the sheet correctly.
>  It looks
>  like the ENABLE input on the 4017 holds the selected output high. I was
>  thinking it turned the outputs on and off, but it doesn't. Looks like the
>  AND gate trick is the easiest.
Exactly This will be both a quick method, and easy enough to make.
Lot's of wires that I will not cross (I'm taking that advice)

>  The 4081 is a quad CMOS AND gate, so you
>  would need three of these to control all ten outputs.
Yep. Got it.

Also, I think that the 4017+4081 is the best sollution, better then the
'oldschool'
sequencing methods: I expect this stuff to work faster / correcter at high
rates.

Thanks a bundle,

-- 
--

groets,

_          >^v<        _

website http://www.dendriet.nl


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Oct 14 23:41:47 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Re: 10 step sequencer
In-Reply-To: <p0510030abbb218308d84@[10.0.0.158]>
Message-ID: <20031014214147.28710.qmail@web80205.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd suggest using a binary counter, driving a 4051...
(this is only eight steps...I don't remember if this
was
considered OK...)

You hook the incomming clock to the input of the
4051, the outputs will be high for the same period
that
the input clock is...

Two chips. Might use a 4520 counter and have 1/2
a counter left over...

H^) harry


--- Dave Krooshof <synthos at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Thanks for looking into this, guys.
> 
> >  Now that I look at it. I'm pretty sure this last
> trick wont work.
> That's where I ended up as well, without
> breadboarding it.
> The enabler disables the counting, if I understand
> the sheet correctly.
> >  It looks
> >  like the ENABLE input on the 4017 holds the
> selected output high. I was
> >  thinking it turned the outputs on and off, but it
> doesn't. Looks like the
> >  AND gate trick is the easiest.
> Exactly This will be both a quick method, and easy
> enough to make.
> Lot's of wires that I will not cross (I'm taking
> that advice)
> 
> >  The 4081 is a quad CMOS AND gate, so you
> >  would need three of these to control all ten
> outputs.
> Yep. Got it.
> 
> Also, I think that the 4017+4081 is the best
> sollution, better then the
> 'oldschool'
> sequencing methods: I expect this stuff to work
> faster / correcter at high
> rates.
> 
> Thanks a bundle,
> 
> -- 
> --
> 
> groets,
> 
> _          >^v<        _
> 
> website http://www.dendriet.nl


From jacosloof at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 15 00:06:55 2003
From: jacosloof at yahoo.com (Jaco Sloof)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:06:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] 10 step sequencer
In-Reply-To: <p05100304bbb0f58b2e53@[10.0.0.158]>
Message-ID: <20031014220655.61504.qmail@web11608.mail.yahoo.com>

Components needed:
4017 (10 stage Johnson-counter)

signal --> 4017 Clock input
signal --> first input of 10 (2-port) AND ports
4017 0-9 outputs --> other input of 10  (2-port) AND ports

outputs of the AND ports will be Logic 1 one at a time
and won't be on longer then the input signal.

(please note, i dunno about the rise/fall time of the
and ports, and how quick a 4017 can react on its own.
Still tinkering with cmos myself, still killing 555's)

so thats a lot of "maybe" but i think this would set things in
the right direction.

Greets, Jaco Sloof

--- Dave Krooshof <synthos at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Hi there.
> 
> I'm looking for a sequencing IC for a little pulse AM thingy I'm 
> erxperimenting with.
> I'm looking for a [1 input, more outputs] IC that's able to do this:
> 
> On every pulse it gets, it should set this pulse on the next output.
> The pulse it receives, will be 5 to 7 ms wide.
> The pulserate on it's input might be as high as every 10ms.
> The IC should have 8 or 10 outputs, 16 outputs is also OK.
> The pulse on the outputs should rotate over these outputs.
> The pulsewidth should be equal to the clock/trigger pulse (5 to 7ms)
> No more then 1 output at a time may send a logical 1 out.
> Powersupply will be + and - 9 volts from 2 batteries.
> 
> Do you guys (m/f) know of a IC that's able to do this?
> 
> For low power consumption, I prefer a "one stone" sollution.
> I also was thinking of converting a digital counter, but then I worry
> about the pulsewidth, which is kinda important to me.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> -- 
> --
> 
> groets,
> 
> _          >^v<        _
> 
> website http://www.dendriet.nl


__________________________________
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From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Wed Oct 15 00:09:54 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:09:54 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Re: 10 step sequencer
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D773@SBIEXCHANGE>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harry Bissell Jr [mailto:harrybissell at prodigy.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 2:42 PM
> To: Dave Krooshof; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Re: 10 step sequencer
> 
> I'd suggest using a binary counter, driving a 4051...
> (this is only eight steps...I don't remember if this
> was
> considered OK...)
> 
> You hook the incomming clock to the input of the
> 4051, the outputs will be high for the same period
> that
> the input clock is...
> 
> Two chips. Might use a 4520 counter and have 1/2
> a counter left over...
> 
> H^) harry
> 

That's a GREAT idea. The 4051 is an analog multiplexer. Rather than using an
AND gate to make the output pulse the same width as the input, you simply
re-use the input pulse and switch it to the different outputs. There is a 16
out analog MUX available too (4067). Since you're switching a logic level
signal, you can still use the output of the MUX to reset the counter (to
limit the sequence length). 

Two points for Harry!


Tim Servo



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From delta_316 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Oct 15 00:10:37 2003
From: delta_316 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Milo=20Barrowclough?=)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:10:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20031014221037.97255.qmail@web86010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

hello everybody
 
I love electronic sound and i am well into all kinds of synthesizers. Recently i have been trying to build my own rudimentary synth. I have made a simple 555 oscillator that works great. Since the then i have been trying more advanced circuits involving op-amps, but without success. I have tried to make r.a. penfold's vco, penfold's filter, and a basic lm3900 VCO. Whenever i try any of these circuits , it either emits nothing or a quiet buzzing noise. I am almost certain that my circuit is correctly built, i've checked the bastard about 50 times. Can anyone help me? I think that the problem may be the power supply, i am using an old scalextric (model car racing) transformer that puts out 12 volts. Is this a common problem with op-amps? Whats going on? 
Thanks very much
Milo


---------------------------------
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From dreichert at sympatico.ca  Wed Oct 15 00:53:14 2003
From: dreichert at sympatico.ca (dreichert at sympatico.ca)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:53:14 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Re: 
Message-ID: <20031014225518.QBQI615.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]>

Milo,

Are you only using a transformer? If so, you probably are powering your circuits with AC power, you need to have a DC power source. You can convert it quite easily using the 7812 and 7912 regulators, a couple of capacitors and diodes.

Many of the list members' pages have power supply circuits on them, they're all basically the same. Check them out.

Dave

> 
> From: Milo Barrowclough <delta_316 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: 2003/10/14 Tue PM 06:10:37 EST
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> 
> hello everybody
>  
> I love electronic sound and i am well into all kinds of synthesizers. Recently i have been trying to build my own rudimentary synth. I have made a simple 555 oscillator that works great. Since the then i have been trying more advanced circuits involving op-amps, but without success. I have tried to make r.a. penfold's vco, penfold's filter, and a basic lm3900 VCO. Whenever i try any of these circuits , it either emits nothing or a quiet buzzing noise. I am almost certain that my circuit is correctly built, i've checked the bastard about 50 times. Can anyone help me? I think that the problem may be the power supply, i am using an old scalextric (model car racing) transformer that puts out 12 volts. Is this a common problem with op-amps? Whats going on? 
> Thanks very much
> Milo
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger
> 
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From rayw at csd.net  Wed Oct 15 02:13:06 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:13:06 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Re: 
In-Reply-To: <20031014225518.QBQI615.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANCEAKCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi Milo

The model car racing transformer may be part of the problem. Typically these
are half wave rectifed outputs which are VERY noisey and need to be filtered
with 10s of thousands of uFs of capacitance. Even if it is full wave
rectified you will still need 10s of thousands of uF to smooth it to an
acceptable level. I would start with a good power supply design.

Here is a simple one.
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/ninevoltsupply.html

Here is a more complex but better one.
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/powersupply.html

Ray

  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of
dreichert at sympatico.ca
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 4:53 PM
  To: Milo Barrowclough; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
  Subject: [sdiy] Re:


  hello everybody

  I love electronic sound and i am well into all kinds of synthesizers.
Recently i have been trying to build my own rudimentary synth. I have made a
simple 555 oscillator that works great. Since the then i have been trying
more advanced circuits involving op-amps, but without success. I have tried
to make r.a. penfold's vco, penfold's filter, and a basic lm3900 VCO.
Whenever i try any of these circuits , it either emits nothing or a quiet
buzzing noise. I am almost certain that my circuit is correctly built, i've
checked the bastard about 50 times. Can anyone help me? I think that the
problem may be the power supply, i am using an old scalextric (model car
racing) transformer that puts out 12 volts. Is this a common problem with
op-amps? Whats going on?
  Thanks very much
  Milo


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Messenger
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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Oct 15 02:46:51 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:46:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] (OT) Pioneer SX-3500
Message-ID: <20031015004651.59553.qmail@web80202.mail.yahoo.com>

anyone have a schematic for this
I have to fix one....

thanks in advance (fingers crossed)

H^) harry


From gilwein at walla.co.il  Wed Oct 15 03:00:35 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:00:35 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] strange symptoms
Message-ID: <200310150100.h9F10Zo27662@omail2.walla.co.il>


Hi.

I have that problematic Kawai SX210 which had it's battery leaking,
probably causing it to behave strangely like playing notes automatically
and playing a few notes when you hit only one key.

I clean all the defective are and replaced a few parts,
replaced the battery and resoldered a few wires.
also cleaned up the whole pcb.

Than it actually stopped playing automatically, 
and a few notes when you hit one key,
BUT, now it misses some notes sometimes,
and sometimes when you hit a chord
the sound comes out in pulses. Also it will play some notes
with a slightly different sound than the preset used.


I replaced a few capacitors and just when starting it up 
the dial wheel has stopped to respond and I now cannot edit
any of the parameters !!!

I noticed that there's a short between two transistor legs
that comes on and off  (the transistor is not leaking and is OK).

I mean sometimes the short is there but sometimes it is not .....

how can this be caused and is this normal ?

I also noticed that the EPROM chip and another (very) large
chip made by Intel, are getting warm after a few minutes of operation (but not too warm...)
is that normal ?

moreover, is there any chance that the EPROM programming 
has gone defected ?

Thanks,

I really want it to get fixed !

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Wed Oct 15 03:49:48 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:49:48 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] strange symptoms
In-Reply-To: <200310150100.h9F10Zo27662@omail2.walla.co.il>
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCEBPCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

Have you looked for cold ( cracked ) solder joints? They can be very hard to
find, however now that the board is clean it will be easier. Breathe on the
board closely to create a fog on the solder joints. Hairline cracks will
show up as a thin ring around the pin which is protruding through the board.
You might be surprised to find many of these which is a common failure on
most wave soldered boards.

Thermal flexing over time can open these cracks and make problems occur
years after the board was made.




  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of gilwein at walla.co.il
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:01 PM
  To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
  Subject: [sdiy] strange symptoms



        Hi.

        I have that problematic Kawai SX210 which had it's battery leaking,
        probably causing it to behave strangely like playing notes
automatically
        and playing a few notes when you hit only one key.

        I clean all the defective are and replaced a few parts,
        replaced the battery and resoldered a few wires.
        also cleaned up the whole pcb.

        Than it actually stopped playing automatically,
        and a few notes when you hit one key,
        BUT, now it misses some notes sometimes,
        and sometimes when you hit a chord
        the sound comes out in pulses. Also it will play some notes
        with a slightly different sound than the preset used.


        I replaced a few capacitors and just when starting it up
        the dial wheel has stopped to respond and I now cannot edit
        any of the parameters !!!

        I noticed that there's a short between two transistor legs
        that comes on and off  (the transistor is not leaking and is OK).

        I mean sometimes the short is there but sometimes it is not .....

        how can this be caused and is this normal ?

        I also noticed that the EPROM chip and another (very) large
        chip made by Intel, are getting warm after a few minutes of
operation (but not too warm...)
        is that normal ?

        moreover, is there any chance that the EPROM programming
        has gone defected ?

        Thanks,

        I really want it to get fixed !


------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From elmacaco at nyc.rr.com  Wed Oct 15 05:53:44 2003
From: elmacaco at nyc.rr.com (elmacaco)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:53:44 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] strange symptoms
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCEBPCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
Message-ID: <002801c392cf$ee6b4980$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>

What a neat trick!!!

I love this list!

Ed
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Boracci 
  To: gilwein at walla.co.il ; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:49 PM
  Subject: RE: [sdiy] strange symptoms


  Have you looked for cold ( cracked ) solder joints? They can be very hard to find, however now that the board is clean it will be easier. Breathe on the board closely to create a fog on the solder joints. Hairline cracks will show up as a thin ring around the pin which is protruding through the board. You might be surprised to find many of these which is a common failure on most wave soldered boards. 

  Thermal flexing over time can open these cracks and make problems occur years after the board was made. 




    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of gilwein at walla.co.il
    Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:01 PM
    To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
    Subject: [sdiy] strange symptoms



          Hi.

          I have that problematic Kawai SX210 which had it's battery leaking,
          probably causing it to behave strangely like playing notes automatically
          and playing a few notes when you hit only one key.

          I clean all the defective are and replaced a few parts,
          replaced the battery and resoldered a few wires.
          also cleaned up the whole pcb.

          Than it actually stopped playing automatically, 
          and a few notes when you hit one key,
          BUT, now it misses some notes sometimes,
          and sometimes when you hit a chord
          the sound comes out in pulses. Also it will play some notes
          with a slightly different sound than the preset used.


          I replaced a few capacitors and just when starting it up 
          the dial wheel has stopped to respond and I now cannot edit
          any of the parameters !!!

          I noticed that there's a short between two transistor legs
          that comes on and off  (the transistor is not leaking and is OK).

          I mean sometimes the short is there but sometimes it is not .....

          how can this be caused and is this normal ?

          I also noticed that the EPROM chip and another (very) large
          chip made by Intel, are getting warm after a few minutes of operation (but not too warm...)
          is that normal ?

          moreover, is there any chance that the EPROM programming 
          has gone defected ?

          Thanks,

          I really want it to get fixed !


----------------------------------------------------------------------
         




----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From epeasant at telusplanet.net  Wed Oct 15 07:06:33 2003
From: epeasant at telusplanet.net (The Peasant)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:06:33 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Drum synth sound files!
In-Reply-To: <000d01c392e3$662d9280$e3c24bab@default>
References: <200310141214.h9ECEde0025344@mail.umu.se> <000d01c392e3$662d9280$e3c24bab@default>
Message-ID: <1066194393.3f8cd5d91b87e@webmail.telusplanet.net>

OK, as promised, I have posted some more updates to my 
percussion synth page, including some MP3s! Go here for the 
action, but don't be surprised if my site goes down from 
bandwidth overuse :-(

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/epeasant/projects/ssdrum
s/ssdrums.html

Take care,
Doug
______________________
The Electronic Peasant

www.electronicpeasant.com


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Wed Oct 15 08:11:34 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:11:34 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My synth
References: <200310141214.h9ECEde0025344@mail.umu.se>
Message-ID: <000d01c392e3$662d9280$e3c24bab@default>

Nice job!  That's a pretty powerful little mini-synth.

Cheers,
Scott



----- Original Message -----
From: "Ola Andersson" <rand at ling.umu.se>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:14 AM
Subject: [sdiy] My synth


> Hi list!
> I've been lurking here a couple of weeks and just want to invite everyone
to
> look at my synthpage here: http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy
> I have built a little portable synth which I'm currently upgrading with
more
> features. I'm also working on a larger modular synth project.
> I'm not very good at designing my own circuits (yet), but I have many
ideas
> of stuff I want to do in the future.
> --
> Ola Andersson
> http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy
>


From synthos at xs4all.nl  Wed Oct 15 13:52:46 2003
From: synthos at xs4all.nl (Dave Krooshof)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:52:46 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Re: 10 step sequencer
In-Reply-To: <20031014214147.28710.qmail@web80205.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031014214147.28710.qmail@web80205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p05100300bbb2df2805c4@[10.0.0.158]>

Hi again,

Thanks for all the replies, I'm gonna tick them one by one.... inline....

Jaco Sloof wrote:
>[snip: 4017 + ANDgates sollution]
>(please note, i dunno about the rise/fall time of the
>and ports,
They are usually very quick.
>  and how quick a 4017 can react on its own.
There might be some timing issues, like "will de ANDgate open up earlier
then the 4017 is switching to the next leg?" but wiping one together will tell.
>so thats a lot of "maybe" but i think this would set things in
>the right direction.
It does. And there are more maybees to hit. :-)

>Still tinkering with cmos myself, still killing 555's)
Eh, what do you mean... killing... what do they die off?


Harry wrote:

>I'd suggest using a binary counter, driving a 4051...
Yep, that's what we were thinking too.

>(this is only eight steps...I don't remember if this
>was considered OK...)
OKish

>You hook the incomming clock to the input of the
>4051, the outputs will be high for the same period
>that the input clock is...
hmmm. this sounds like a better sollution then the 4017 with ANDgates.

>Two chips. Might use a 4520 counter and have 1/2
>a counter left over...
Got it.


Tim Servo wrote:

>That's a GREAT idea. The 4051 is an analog multiplexer. Rather than using an
>AND gate to make the output pulse the same width as the input, you simply
>re-use the input pulse and switch it to the different outputs. There is a 16
>out analog MUX available too (4067).
Perfect! Thanks Tim!
>Since you're switching a logic level signal, you can still use the 
>output of the
>MUX to reset the counter (to limit the sequence length).
>Two points for Harry!
Four points for the Harry-Tim team.

>You're welcome. :) The only catch is; if you come up with something really
>cool, you have to tell us about it (or at least share some sound samples).
>Have fun!
I will... It's not an oscillator though, it'll be a controller. Hopefully.


Reminds me that I have to sample my analogue bass synth some more
and update the webpage. I know now why that thing was freaking me out
from time to time: I didn't use capacitors to couple the modules, as I was
afraid I'd use more lowfreq then I allready did. But as I was cranking up
the bass, I was also cranking up the DC that leaked in from the
controlvoltages. Debugging modules (even prefabbed ones) takes more
time then building them.



-- 
--

groets,

_          >^v<        _

website http://www.dendriet.nl


From jmahoney at gate.net  Wed Oct 15 17:26:13 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:26:13 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] My synth
References: <200310141214.h9ECEde0025344@mail.umu.se>
Message-ID: <007801c39330$abe487a0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

Happy birthday, Ola!

Funny (to me) that you are blogging. I've been thinking that blogs would
suit many of the DIYers, it's the easiest way to maintain a running
commentary. Typepad (www.typepad.com) is a good new system, and of course
Blogger (www.blogger.com) is well-known in the weblog community.
MoveableType is good if you run your own server and want to play with the
source code.

Best wishes for you, your site and your synths. :-)
--
john


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ola Andersson" <rand at ling.umu.se>
> Hi list!
> I've been lurking here a couple of weeks and just want to invite everyone
to
> look at my synthpage here: http://cullyn.ling.umu.se/synthdiy
[snip]


From blacet at blacet.com  Wed Oct 15 17:41:42 2003
From: blacet at blacet.com (John Blacet)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:41:42 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Re: Power Supplies (was *no subject*)
References: <20031014225518.QBQI615.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]>
Message-ID: <3F8D6AB6.754F73CD@blacet.com>

For a safe, convenient, well designed experimenters/DIY module supply,
please consider the Blacet PS500. We also have an expander board for
this (PSCONN2) and connector kits for modules.

Please don't mess around with 120VAC stuff unless you *really* know what
you are doing!

http://www.blacet.com/misc.html
--
Regards,
--/////--
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Product Announcements, Specials, Hot Deals, join our mailing List:

http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html



From jmahoney at gate.net  Thu Oct 16 05:47:48 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:47:48 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Re: [AH] What 40 Modules? (Spice it Up!)
References: <4.1.20031015233811.01bd1d80@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <020d01c39398$44cfffa0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

> >Vanilla, Habanero, chocolate, and strawberries
>
> I believe this is the first time I've seen these particular ingredients
> grouped together! I'm trying to imagine a single dish that uses all four
of
> these...    :)
>
> later,
> Glen Berry

Habanero popsicles: http://www.zianet.com/sunny/html/untitled_2_25.html
--
john





From jmahoney at gate.net  Thu Oct 16 05:51:41 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:51:41 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Re: [AH] What 40 Modules? (Spice it Up!)
References: <4.1.20031015233811.01bd1d80@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <021201c39398$cf4232c0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

> >Vanilla, Habanero, chocolate, and strawberries
>
> I believe this is the first time I've seen these particular ingredients
> grouped together! I'm trying to imagine a single dish that uses all four
of
> these...    :)
>
> later,
> Glen Berry


Or, dip strawberries into Aztec Chocolate Fondue:
http://www.chocolatemonthclub.com/pastnewsletters/vol3no8.htm

--
john


From aaron at receive-transmit.com  Thu Oct 16 13:30:03 2003
From: aaron at receive-transmit.com (Aaron Day)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:30:03 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
Message-ID: <15B3950A-FFCC-11D7-A84D-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>

Hey all.

Anybody out there having success at making their MOTM-800 envelopes 
click free for short enevelope settings? I'm about at my wits end here 
maybe someone can make a suggestion. I'm on a project where I need this 
kind of sound and would like to use the modular before I resort to the 
sh-101.

Quick background.

When I I have attack at 0 and a short decay setting I always get a 
click when the EG is driving a VCA when I back off the attack to the 
point that I lose the click I have a mushy attack. I want to get a nice 
healthy "knock" out of my EGs so that I can sculpt kick drums etc...

I'm gating/triggering the EGs from my ACS TM-116 sequencers which work 
fine--if it weren't for the click.

I have two carefully built EGs so I'm counting against some kind of 
build error.

Tips hacks suggestions?

TIA,

ad

________________________
Aaron Day
Marienburgerstr. 33
VH EG rechts
10405 Berlin
Germany

Mobile +49 179.750.1854
Office +49 (0)30.255.627.94
Fax +49 (0)30.255.627.96
________________________


From rayw at csd.net  Thu Oct 16 13:53:41 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 05:53:41 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGEBLCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi All

In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise source I came to the
conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent source of noise sources
(that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time in the past I have used
the specified diode and it made more noise than I ever saw before but that
seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have updated my multi-noise source
module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904 in case anyone is
thinking of building it.

I also finally made boards from the artwork and they do work fine. I tweaked
a couple of resistor values too.

It is here:
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html

Cheers

Ray


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Thu Oct 16 13:54:32 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:54:32 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F04@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Depends on your expectation.

I mean, you try to instantly switch on a non synchronized VCO
wave, this will cause sudden jumps in the signal, according
to VCO and Envelope timing. Sometimes you hit the VCO near 0,
sometimes near maximum level. Gives a "random" click
pattern.

Remedy: ensure via synchronisation that
the VCO starts at zero when the fast envelope does the transient
start. So the clicks should be much less audible (well,
VCA feedthrough will stay, of course).
Or: ensure that the VCO will be hit always at maximum.
Much less anoying then a "random" behaviour.

A good reason for having a tuneable sync, i.e. the 
phase during sync will settle to some adjustable
value. Have seen this for LFO, but not for VCO circuits.


Another question: we could ask what kind of thing this VCO-VCA-Env
thing is modelling. If you create sound by applying a impulse to 
a 2nd order resonator, you will see that the rise time depends
on frequency and resonance. Perhaps a very simple ideophon
model. It will never happen that the wave starts at 100%, the
differential equation will always start with 0 (given the initial
conditions say so). I've just done this for a composition
I'm going to present this Saturday or Sunday.

The usual synth circuits divide the action
of a resonator in two parts, frequency and time transient,
which are not correlated. Thus it is not surprising that things
do not work as supposed (in the sense of said modelling).

I have heard this fast attack problem on many synths, also digital.
I guess all such configurations show the same behaviour, if the
envelope is really fast enough.

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Aaron Day
> Sent: Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2003 13:30
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
> 
> 
> Hey all.
> 
> Anybody out there having success at making their MOTM-800 envelopes 
> click free for short enevelope settings? I'm about at my wits 
> end here 
> maybe someone can make a suggestion. I'm on a project where I 
> need this 
> kind of sound and would like to use the modular before I 
> resort to the 
> sh-101.
> 
> Quick background.
> 
> When I I have attack at 0 and a short decay setting I always get a 
> click when the EG is driving a VCA when I back off the attack to the 
> point that I lose the click I have a mushy attack. I want to 
> get a nice 
> healthy "knock" out of my EGs so that I can sculpt kick drums etc...
> 
> I'm gating/triggering the EGs from my ACS TM-116 sequencers 
> which work 
> fine--if it weren't for the click.
> 
> I have two carefully built EGs so I'm counting against some kind of 
> build error.
> 
> Tips hacks suggestions?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> ad
> 
> ________________________
> Aaron Day
> Marienburgerstr. 33
> VH EG rechts
> 10405 Berlin
> Germany
> 
> Mobile +49 179.750.1854
> Office +49 (0)30.255.627.94
> Fax +49 (0)30.255.627.96
> ________________________
> 
> 


From resfreq at hoohahrecords.com  Thu Oct 16 14:06:08 2003
From: resfreq at hoohahrecords.com (Dave Magnuson)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:06:08 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
In-Reply-To: <15B3950A-FFCC-11D7-A84D-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031016080608.007be480@hoohahrecords.com>

I'd check the documentation for your VCAs... perhaps you need to adjust the
trimmers to get less CV feedthrough.  

Dave Magnuson



At 01:30 PM 10/16/03 +0200, Aaron Day wrote:
>
>Hey all.
>
>Anybody out there having success at making their MOTM-800 envelopes 
>click free for short enevelope settings? I'm about at my wits end here 
>maybe someone can make a suggestion. I'm on a project where I need this 
>kind of sound and would like to use the modular before I resort to the 
>sh-101.
>
>Quick background.
>
>When I I have attack at 0 and a short decay setting I always get a 
>click when the EG is driving a VCA when I back off the attack to the 
>point that I lose the click I have a mushy attack. I want to get a nice 
>healthy "knock" out of my EGs so that I can sculpt kick drums etc...
>
>I'm gating/triggering the EGs from my ACS TM-116 sequencers which work 
>fine--if it weren't for the click.
>
>I have two carefully built EGs so I'm counting against some kind of 
>build error.
>
>Tips hacks suggestions?
>
>TIA,
>
>ad


Resonant Frequency:
resfreq at hoohahrecords.com
http://www.hoohahrecords.com/resfreq/index.html
-------------- next part --------------

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From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct 16 14:06:30 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 16 Oct 2003 14:06:30 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrols in Moog 12 stage phaser
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGEBLCEAA.rayw@csd.net>
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGEBLCEAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <1066305990.3f8e89c696415@www.debitel.net>

Hi,

Does anybody know exactly which type of Vactrols were used in the
old rackmount Moog 12-stage phaser?

(Speaking of the Compander section. The flter stages are OTA-based,
of course.)

JH.


-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From dragon.servicing at virgin.net  Thu Oct 16 14:35:39 2003
From: dragon.servicing at virgin.net (Peter Blackett)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:35:39 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of sound on BBC4 digital tv in UK
Message-ID: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net>

Hi,
just thought you might be interested to know that on Sunday at 9pm on
BBC4 the Digital Tv channel in the uk there is a program called
Alchemists of sound .
the trailer that I saw had shots of the radiophonic workshop, VCS3 , and
sine wave generators etc ........
regards Peter


From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct 16 14:58:09 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 16 Oct 2003 14:58:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F04@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F04@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <1066309089.3f8e95e17eab6@www.debitel.net>

> I have heard this fast attack problem on many synths, also digital.
> I guess all such configurations show the same behaviour, if the
> envelope is really fast enough.

Yes. It can be explained directly from signal theory, and would
even occur in perfectly ideal modules.


> Another question: we could ask what kind of thing this VCO-VCA-Env
> thing is modelling. If you create sound by applying a impulse to 
> a 2nd order resonator, you will see that the rise time depends
> on frequency and resonance. Perhaps a very simple ideophon
> model. It will never happen that the wave starts at 100%, the
> differential equation will always start with 0 (given the initial
> conditions say so). I've just done this for a composition
> I'm going to present this Saturday or Sunday.
> 
> The usual synth circuits divide the action
> of a resonator in two parts, frequency and time transient,
> which are not correlated. Thus it is not surprising that things
> do not work as supposed (in the sense of said modelling).

That's a very interesting way too see it - I never thought about that,
but it makes perfect sense. Maybe that's also the reason why synth
that only have a single envelope generator (shared by VCA and VCF)
often produce a more "natural" behaviour. Of course that's a big 
limiation as well - every time I played with a 1-ADSR synth, I wished 
I had a second ADSR. But often, when I _have_ 2 ADSRs, I wish the
2nd would "follow" the first one somehow. Would be easy to implement
with two VCADSRs: One set of knobs for common A. D, S, R values,
second set of knobs for (relative) offset A, D, S, R values on the
second EG.


Linked parameters can often be very nice. I've been playing with
VC ADSR parameters on the PolyKorg Clone a lot recently. I think
with full polyphony available, the behaviour of release becomes
even more important. (No need to model everything exactly, when
the release is cut off 8 notes later, anyway.)
I found that the usual prolonging of the Release time for
a "damper pedal" effect can be much improoved if the Decay
time is adjusted accordingly as well. But I disgress.


Back to the Attack click problem. Many non-modular synths have
a small time constant (RC-filter) built-into the VCA, in order
to limit the transient speed of the EG. With a nonlinear VCA
CV input, this would even be different from ordinary 
filtering, and different from ordinary slew limiting as well.
Just think of the famous Vactrol-based VCAs!
On a modular, you want more degrees of freedom, and you want
to _allow_ sound that sound unnatural. This can mean your
emvelopes can be faster than you really want them for a certain
application. Referring to Martin's example of a 2nd order resonator,
no think of a "real" bass drum, for instance. If you hit the base drum,
the hitting may produce a transien that is faster than the damped
oscillation after the impact, but _how_much_ faster can it possibly
be? (on a real bass drum?). Will certainly depend on the strength
of the impact, damping from the beater's material, and so on.
But will it be as fast as the 1 ...2ms of a "good" synth ADSR?
1ms coresponds to a quarter-cycle (i.e. zero-to-maximum) of a 250Hz
resonator. But this zero-to-maximum excitation will only happen
when you really synth your VCO to the ADSR such that it starts with
a zero-crossing. Think of it: If your ADSR strikes at the VCO
wave _maximum_, whis coresponds to a drum membrane that is sort-of
"plugged". If you have a 1ms transient, it's like plugging a
membrane that's tuned to 250Hz (approximately).


JH.


-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Thu Oct 16 15:33:59 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:33:59 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F06@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Right.

Well, I made this resonator thing digital. Just a 2nd order difference equation.
Pole radius and angle can be selected. A unit impulse will start it.
By calling this program several times (by shell script) you can
produce sinoid transients and later arrange them.

I noticed that giving a different pole radius for each note (i.e.
different resonance, thus different attack/decay) this makes more
interesting music than a fixed transient approach would do.

Voltage controlled envelopes...

Sometimes too much automation leads to boring structures...


m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jhaible at debitel.net [mailto:jhaible at debitel.net]
> Sent: Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2003 14:58
> To: Czech Martin
> Cc: Aaron Day; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
> 
> 
> > I have heard this fast attack problem on many synths, also digital.
> > I guess all such configurations show the same behaviour, if the
> > envelope is really fast enough.
> 
> Yes. It can be explained directly from signal theory, and would
> even occur in perfectly ideal modules.
> 
> 
> > Another question: we could ask what kind of thing this VCO-VCA-Env
> > thing is modelling. If you create sound by applying a impulse to 
> > a 2nd order resonator, you will see that the rise time depends
> > on frequency and resonance. Perhaps a very simple ideophon
> > model. It will never happen that the wave starts at 100%, the
> > differential equation will always start with 0 (given the initial
> > conditions say so). I've just done this for a composition
> > I'm going to present this Saturday or Sunday.
> > 
> > The usual synth circuits divide the action
> > of a resonator in two parts, frequency and time transient,
> > which are not correlated. Thus it is not surprising that things
> > do not work as supposed (in the sense of said modelling).
> 
> That's a very interesting way too see it - I never thought about that,
> but it makes perfect sense. Maybe that's also the reason why synth
> that only have a single envelope generator (shared by VCA and VCF)
> often produce a more "natural" behaviour. Of course that's a big 
> limiation as well - every time I played with a 1-ADSR synth, I wished 
> I had a second ADSR. But often, when I _have_ 2 ADSRs, I wish the
> 2nd would "follow" the first one somehow. Would be easy to implement
> with two VCADSRs: One set of knobs for common A. D, S, R values,
> second set of knobs for (relative) offset A, D, S, R values on the
> second EG.
> 
> 
> Linked parameters can often be very nice. I've been playing with
> VC ADSR parameters on the PolyKorg Clone a lot recently. I think
> with full polyphony available, the behaviour of release becomes
> even more important. (No need to model everything exactly, when
> the release is cut off 8 notes later, anyway.)
> I found that the usual prolonging of the Release time for
> a "damper pedal" effect can be much improoved if the Decay
> time is adjusted accordingly as well. But I disgress.
> 
> 
> Back to the Attack click problem. Many non-modular synths have
> a small time constant (RC-filter) built-into the VCA, in order
> to limit the transient speed of the EG. With a nonlinear VCA
> CV input, this would even be different from ordinary 
> filtering, and different from ordinary slew limiting as well.
> Just think of the famous Vactrol-based VCAs!
> On a modular, you want more degrees of freedom, and you want
> to _allow_ sound that sound unnatural. This can mean your
> emvelopes can be faster than you really want them for a certain
> application. Referring to Martin's example of a 2nd order resonator,
> no think of a "real" bass drum, for instance. If you hit the 
> base drum,
> the hitting may produce a transien that is faster than the damped
> oscillation after the impact, but _how_much_ faster can it possibly
> be? (on a real bass drum?). Will certainly depend on the strength
> of the impact, damping from the beater's material, and so on.
> But will it be as fast as the 1 ...2ms of a "good" synth ADSR?
> 1ms coresponds to a quarter-cycle (i.e. zero-to-maximum) of a 250Hz
> resonator. But this zero-to-maximum excitation will only happen
> when you really synth your VCO to the ADSR such that it starts with
> a zero-crossing. Think of it: If your ADSR strikes at the VCO
> wave _maximum_, whis coresponds to a drum membrane that is sort-of
> "plugged". If you have a 1ms transient, it's like plugging a
> membrane that's tuned to 250Hz (approximately).
> 
> 
> JH.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> debitel.net Webmail
> 


From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct 16 15:47:38 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 16 Oct 2003 15:47:38 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] CS-80 Sub Osc Speed modulation
In-Reply-To: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net>
References: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <1066312058.3f8ea17a87e2a@www.debitel.net>

You never stop learning - last night I read a CS-80 review at
www.amazona.de , and suddenly learned that the smaller CS-synths
are missing another fine detail of the CS-80: Sub Osc (LFO) speed
modulation via aftertouch!

Surprised that I never had noticed this before, a question 
was immediatly arising: The CS-80 has polyphonic aftertouch, but
there is only one Sub Oscillator. So the CS-80 must also emulate
monophonic aftertouch internally. I consulted the schematics, and 
found that there is in fact a set of diodes which creates the
*maximum* of all individual pressure sensors, and uses this to
control the LFO speed. As expected.

But there's more, and this is where it may become interesting:
The diodes cause a voltage drop of approx. 0.5V, and there is
no compensation circuit for this. So I expect the LFO speed
modulation to come *later* (at a higher threshold) than VCF / VCA
modulation when you gradually increase the pressure on a key.
This would allow some brilliance and volume modulation by
aftertouch without LFO speed modulation at low pressure
values, and LFO speed modulation joining in at higher pressure
values. Which would be another very sensible choice for a great
performance-type instrument.

Can anybody confirm (or correct) this behavior?

Now I know another mod I have to do for my CS-50 (;->)

JH.

-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 16 16:37:08 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:37:08 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F04@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.
 com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031016081539.00a8c6b0@127.0.0.1>

This is a problem I worked on many years ago.  The concern is that the 
*slope* discontinuity produced by the usual attack generator can cause a 
pop, even though the total attack time is not all that short.  I built a 
circuit that rounded off the the beginning of the attack curve and was able 
to convince myself that the attack sounded more natural and that shorter 
attack times could be used without getting pops.  Unfortunately, I don't 
remember how I did the circuitry and I can't find any documentation.  As I 
remember it was a bit complicated.  Anyway, the usual attack curve (step 
voltage driving RC) seems unnatural.

   Ian



At 05:54 AM 10/16/2003, Czech Martin wrote:
>Depends on your expectation.
>
>I mean, you try to instantly switch on a non synchronized VCO
>wave, this will cause sudden jumps in the signal, according
>to VCO and Envelope timing. Sometimes you hit the VCO near 0,
>sometimes near maximum level. Gives a "random" click
>pattern.
>
>Remedy: ensure via synchronisation that
>the VCO starts at zero when the fast envelope does the transient
>start. So the clicks should be much less audible (well,
>VCA feedthrough will stay, of course).
>Or: ensure that the VCO will be hit always at maximum.
>Much less anoying then a "random" behaviour.
>
>A good reason for having a tuneable sync, i.e. the
>phase during sync will settle to some adjustable
>value. Have seen this for LFO, but not for VCO circuits.
>
>
>Another question: we could ask what kind of thing this VCO-VCA-Env
>thing is modelling. If you create sound by applying a impulse to
>a 2nd order resonator, you will see that the rise time depends
>on frequency and resonance. Perhaps a very simple ideophon
>model. It will never happen that the wave starts at 100%, the
>differential equation will always start with 0 (given the initial
>conditions say so). I've just done this for a composition
>I'm going to present this Saturday or Sunday.
>
>The usual synth circuits divide the action
>of a resonator in two parts, frequency and time transient,
>which are not correlated. Thus it is not surprising that things
>do not work as supposed (in the sense of said modelling).
>
>I have heard this fast attack problem on many synths, also digital.
>I guess all such configurations show the same behaviour, if the
>envelope is really fast enough.
>
>m.c.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Aaron Day
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2003 13:30
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
> >
> >
> > Hey all.
> >
> > Anybody out there having success at making their MOTM-800 envelopes
> > click free for short enevelope settings? I'm about at my wits
> > end here
> > maybe someone can make a suggestion. I'm on a project where I
> > need this
> > kind of sound and would like to use the modular before I
> > resort to the
> > sh-101.
> >
> > Quick background.
> >
> > When I I have attack at 0 and a short decay setting I always get a
> > click when the EG is driving a VCA when I back off the attack to the
> > point that I lose the click I have a mushy attack. I want to
> > get a nice
> > healthy "knock" out of my EGs so that I can sculpt kick drums etc...
> >
> > I'm gating/triggering the EGs from my ACS TM-116 sequencers
> > which work
> > fine--if it weren't for the click.
> >
> > I have two carefully built EGs so I'm counting against some kind of
> > build error.
> >
> > Tips hacks suggestions?
> >
> > TIA,
> >
> > ad
> >
> > ________________________
> > Aaron Day
> > Marienburgerstr. 33
> > VH EG rechts
> > 10405 Berlin
> > Germany
> >
> > Mobile +49 179.750.1854
> > Office +49 (0)30.255.627.94
> > Fax +49 (0)30.255.627.96
> > ________________________
> >
> >


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Thu Oct 16 18:00:35 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:00:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGEBLCEAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <20031016160035.435.qmail@web80205.mail.yahoo.com>

Of course the correct statement would be

zener diodes are not the good noise sources they once
were...

zener diodes (iirc) operate in two regions... a
low voltage area where they are essentially forward
biased junctions (this is for less than 5V units)and
an avalanche mode for higher voltages. So you should
be using a higher voltage zener, less than 5V units
are
about sure not to work.

That said, the higher voltage processes have been
tailored for a LONG time to get rid of the
noise...which
is a bug in a zener diode... not a 'feature'

There ARE special noise diodes, but in general you
will be more sucessful with the reverse biased
transistors...
no one expects you to run them that way so they did
not
take special care to make them quiet

H^) harry



--- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> wrote:
> Hi All
> 
> In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise
> source I came to the
> conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent
> source of noise sources
> (that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time
> in the past I have used
> the specified diode and it made more noise than I
> ever saw before but that
> seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have
> updated my multi-noise source
> module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904
> in case anyone is
> thinking of building it.
> 
> I also finally made boards from the artwork and they
> do work fine. I tweaked
> a couple of resistor values too.
> 
> It is here:
>
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ray
> 


From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct 16 18:17:56 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 16 Oct 2003 18:17:56 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031016081539.00a8c6b0@127.0.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031016081539.00a8c6b0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <1066321076.3f8ec4b4a40cd@www.debitel.net>

> This is a problem I worked on many years ago.  The concern is that the 
> *slope* discontinuity produced by the usual attack generator can cause a 
> pop, even though the total attack time is not all that short.  I built a 
> circuit that rounded off the the beginning of the attack curve and was able 
> to convince myself that the attack sounded more natural and that shorter 
> attack times could be used without getting pops.  Unfortunately, I don't 
> remember how I did the circuitry and I can't find any documentation.  As I 
> remember it was a bit complicated.  Anyway, the usual attack curve (step 
> voltage driving RC) seems unnatural.


Interesting! 
Rounding the beginning ... raised cosine comes to mind. (Not that
I'd propose using a raised cosine - just seeing the similarity
of your description and the known advantages of the similar 
raised cosine shape.)
I guess the perceived attack time would then be shorter than
the actual time, with the initial rounded part being more like
a little propagation delay than a rise time. Which brings me
to the next analogy:

This is exactly what modern logic ICs are doing, when they use
output edge control. Provide a fast slope (rise time), but get
rid of most of the higher harmonics.

Now what about this: Pre-processing the GATE signal with 
a fixed slew rate (linear integration), shaping this with
a nonlinear circuit, and then using this instead of the GATE 
signal for the asymptode voltage in an ordinary RC-envelope.
So anything longer than a few milliseconds would behave
like a normal RC contour, and very fast attacks would be rounded.

JH.

-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From fdisnd at yahoo.es  Thu Oct 16 18:38:58 2003
From: fdisnd at yahoo.es (=?iso-8859-1?q?Fernando=20de=20Izuzquiza?=)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:38:58 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
Message-ID: <20031016163858.18012.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com>

* mailto:fdi at ran.es *


Hi,

I'm very interested on this thread
(and in using both of the EGs described below)

It seems that Aaron Cram worked on that problem (trigger caused clicks)
while designing his very interesting EnvyLope (based on JH's VCHADSR).
Just take a look to his explanation:
http://www.ori.org/~aaronc/synth/EnvyLope_V3.pdf

By the other hand, JBergfors VCHADSR (based also on JH's VCHADSR!)
incorporates an "instant attack" mode (Punch feature) to produce
ultra-fast transients (0.3 microseconds!!!). I still don't know if
there is any VCA out there (if there is tell me, please) that can stand
such a fast transient without clicking -if it can respond so fast-, and
I assume most VCAs will be always slower, so will soften that sharp
transient a bit... or completely?
http://www.idg.se/personal/bergfors/bergfotron/eg.htm

But I also see that is being suggested that the only way that seems to
be possible to get a very sharp attack sound with no click, is
generating it with that dynamic shape inherent to it (ringing filter),
instead via the usual processing procedure (source to VCA, VCA
controlled by transient CV shape)...

So... ???         =:)

Fernando
-- 



f
*




> De: jhaible at debitel.net
> Fecha: 16 Oct 2003 14:58:09 +0200
> Para: Czech Martin <Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
> CC: Aaron Day <aaron at receive-transmit.com>,
synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Asunto: RE: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
> 
>> I have heard this fast attack problem on many synths, also digital.
>> I guess all such configurations show the same behaviour, if the
>> envelope is really fast enough.
> 
> Yes. It can be explained directly from signal theory, and would
> even occur in perfectly ideal modules.
> 
> 
>> Another question: we could ask what kind of thing this VCO-VCA-Env
>> thing is modelling. If you create sound by applying a impulse to 
>> a 2nd order resonator, you will see that the rise time depends
>> on frequency and resonance. Perhaps a very simple ideophon
>> model. It will never happen that the wave starts at 100%, the
>> differential equation will always start with 0 (given the initial
>> conditions say so). I've just done this for a composition
>> I'm going to present this Saturday or Sunday.
>> 
>> The usual synth circuits divide the action
>> of a resonator in two parts, frequency and time transient,
>> which are not correlated. Thus it is not surprising that things
>> do not work as supposed (in the sense of said modelling).
> 
> That's a very interesting way too see it - I never thought about
that,
> but it makes perfect sense. Maybe that's also the reason why synth
> that only have a single envelope generator (shared by VCA and VCF)
> often produce a more "natural" behaviour. Of course that's a big 
> limiation as well - every time I played with a 1-ADSR synth, I wished

> I had a second ADSR. But often, when I _have_ 2 ADSRs, I wish the
> 2nd would "follow" the first one somehow. Would be easy to implement
> with two VCADSRs: One set of knobs for common A. D, S, R values,
> second set of knobs for (relative) offset A, D, S, R values on the
> second EG.
> 
> 
> Linked parameters can often be very nice. I've been playing with
> VC ADSR parameters on the PolyKorg Clone a lot recently. I think
> with full polyphony available, the behaviour of release becomes
> even more important. (No need to model everything exactly, when
> the release is cut off 8 notes later, anyway.)
> I found that the usual prolonging of the Release time for
> a "damper pedal" effect can be much improoved if the Decay
> time is adjusted accordingly as well. But I disgress.
> 
> 
> Back to the Attack click problem. Many non-modular synths have
> a small time constant (RC-filter) built-into the VCA, in order
> to limit the transient speed of the EG. With a nonlinear VCA
> CV input, this would even be different from ordinary 
> filtering, and different from ordinary slew limiting as well.
> Just think of the famous Vactrol-based VCAs!
> On a modular, you want more degrees of freedom, and you want
> to _allow_ sound that sound unnatural. This can mean your
> emvelopes can be faster than you really want them for a certain
> application. Referring to Martin's example of a 2nd order resonator,
> no think of a "real" bass drum, for instance. If you hit the base
drum,
> the hitting may produce a transien that is faster than the damped
> oscillation after the impact, but _how_much_ faster can it possibly
> be? (on a real bass drum?). Will certainly depend on the strength
> of the impact, damping from the beater's material, and so on.
> But will it be as fast as the 1 ...2ms of a "good" synth ADSR?
> 1ms coresponds to a quarter-cycle (i.e. zero-to-maximum) of a 250Hz
> resonator. But this zero-to-maximum excitation will only happen
> when you really synth your VCO to the ADSR such that it starts with
> a zero-crossing. Think of it: If your ADSR strikes at the VCO
> wave _maximum_, whis coresponds to a drum membrane that is sort-of
> "plugged". If you have a 1ms transient, it's like plugging a
> membrane that's tuned to 250Hz (approximately).
> 
> 
> JH.


___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versi?n GRATIS
Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y m?s...
http://messenger.yahoo.es


From MAMETZGER at partners.org  Thu Oct 16 18:57:22 2003
From: MAMETZGER at partners.org (Metzger, Michael A)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:57:22 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Weller WLC100
Message-ID: <78C21185A8FDD611B4E300508B093DE10580B184@phsexch4.partners.org>

Any opinions on the Weller WLC100 soldering station? It's on sale at
Action-Electronics.com for $29.99. It's either that or the WES51 for $69.99.
WES51 takes the place of the WES50 which I've seen recommended here before. 

BTW, these are killer prices. A Google search shows that these are priced at $50
and $110 or more from other suppliers. Here's the link for Action:
http://www.action-electronics.com/mspecial.htm

Thanks.
Mike



From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct 16 19:50:50 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:50:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
Message-ID: <7820762.1066326653429.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Hi Ray & List,

I've found that my milage varies with zener diodes as a noise source.
Same thing with me, I have this one 1N4742 that will wake up the dead! Stick this one in any of our existing circuit designs, and they will clip! Other zeners are rather quiet.
Transistor BE junctions seem to give me more consistent results. I've found 2N5087s (PNP) to be really noisy - at least among the batch that I have.

I've seen your multi-noise source - it's nice!
A cool idea for the 'grainy' output, would be to make the span of the window comparator voltage controllable, making the 'grainyness' VC'able.

One thing I've found helpful for juction noise sources is to place the CW and CCW ends of a pot across the V+ and V-, connect the wiper to a 47K resistor, connect the other end of the 47K to the noise zener, the other end of the zener is connected to ground.  AC couple the 47K/zener to the rest of the circuit.
This way, using the pot, I am able to dial into the 'sweet' spot of the noise source and find the best 'whiteness'.

HTH,
Oren

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>
Sent: Oct 16, 2003 4:53 AM
To: Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise

Hi All

In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise source I came to the
conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent source of noise sources
(that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time in the past I have used
the specified diode and it made more noise than I ever saw before but that
seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have updated my multi-noise source
module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904 in case anyone is
thinking of building it.

I also finally made boards from the artwork and they do work fine. I tweaked
a couple of resistor values too.

It is here:
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html

Cheers

Ray





From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct 16 20:02:22 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:02:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
Message-ID: <243912.1066327345374.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Good point Harry!

The 1N4742 I mentioned in my previous post is over 30 years old.

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Bissell Jr <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Sent: Oct 16, 2003 9:00 AM
To: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>, Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise

Of course the correct statement would be

zener diodes are not the good noise sources they once
were...

zener diodes (iirc) operate in two regions... a
low voltage area where they are essentially forward
biased junctions (this is for less than 5V units)and
an avalanche mode for higher voltages. So you should
be using a higher voltage zener, less than 5V units
are
about sure not to work.

That said, the higher voltage processes have been
tailored for a LONG time to get rid of the
noise...which
is a bug in a zener diode... not a 'feature'

There ARE special noise diodes, but in general you
will be more sucessful with the reverse biased
transistors...
no one expects you to run them that way so they did
not
take special care to make them quiet

H^) harry



--- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> wrote:
> Hi All
> 
> In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise
> source I came to the
> conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent
> source of noise sources
> (that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time
> in the past I have used
> the specified diode and it made more noise than I
> ever saw before but that
> seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have
> updated my multi-noise source
> module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904
> in case anyone is
> thinking of building it.
> 
> I also finally made boards from the artwork and they
> do work fine. I tweaked
> a couple of resistor values too.
> 
> It is here:
>
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ray
> 





From grichter at asapnet.net  Thu Oct 16 20:45:09 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:45:09 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
In-Reply-To: <1066321076.3f8ec4b4a40cd@www.debitel.net>
Message-ID: <BBB45165.3EC52%grichter@asapnet.net>

> Interesting! 
> Rounding the beginning ... raised cosine comes to mind. (Not that
> I'd propose using a raised cosine - just seeing the similarity
> of your description and the known advantages of the similar
> raised cosine shape.)

Perhaps studying DFT windowing functions would provide ideas. As I
understand it, windowing minimizes bleed between frequency bins, which is a
noise like behavior.


From grichter at asapnet.net  Thu Oct 16 20:55:10 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:55:10 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
In-Reply-To: <20031016163858.18012.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BBB453BE.3EC53%grichter@asapnet.net>

> I still don't know if
> there is any VCA out there (if there is tell me, please) that can stand
> such a fast transient without clicking -if it can respond so fast-, and
> I assume most VCAs will be always slower, so will soften that sharp
> transient a bit... or completely?

The problem could be from DC content in the audio waveform. A pulse width
modulated pulse wave always has DC content unless the pulse width is 50%
(assuming it is bipolar). Simply AC coupling the audio signal to the VCA
could be very helpful (using an input coupling cap).


From s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk  Thu Oct 16 21:49:09 2003
From: s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk (s.thomas)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:49:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of sound on BBC4 digital tv in UK
References: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <004601c3941e$910a31c0$eefa0250@tardis>

Hi Peter..damn I only have cable ..dont think I can get BBC4 on that!

cheers
steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Blackett" <dragon.servicing at virgin.net>
To: "synth Diy list" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>; "analogue mailing list"
<analogue at hyperreal.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:35 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of sound on BBC4 digital tv in UK


> Hi,
> just thought you might be interested to know that on Sunday at 9pm on
> BBC4 the Digital Tv channel in the uk there is a program called
> Alchemists of sound .
> the trailer that I saw had shots of the radiophonic workshop, VCS3 , and
> sine wave generators etc ........
> regards Peter
>
>


From s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk  Thu Oct 16 22:14:03 2003
From: s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk (s.thomas)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:14:03 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Jim Patchell webpages?
References: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <00a301c39422$0d6afc60$eefa0250@tardis>


Hi ..anyone out there (jim maybe ? :-) ) know where  Jim patchell's webpages
have moved to?

cheers
steve thomas


From fdi at ran.es  Thu Oct 16 22:21:55 2003
From: fdi at ran.es (Fernando de Izuzquiza)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:21:55 -0000
Subject: [sdiy] 
Message-ID: <200310161825.h9GIPjAe003302@correo.direccion.com>

I also find Ray's circuit cool, I will build more than one.
I was also thinking on VC the graininess/gate+trig.
I found a very simple circuit based on two 1N4742 zener and is voltage
controllable. I built it but didn't work very well; almost for shure it's my
fault (or that the diodes are too recently manuf.?). The author was quite
unresponsive though.
Take a look (there are other designs and formal theories from Peter
Blasser):  http://www.blasser.com/smchaos/
"voltage controlled zener cracklesh"

Fernando
--



f
*




> De: Oren Leavitt <oleavitt at ix.netcom.com>
> Responder a: Oren Leavitt <oleavitt at ix.netcom.com>
> Fecha: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:50:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> Para: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>, Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Asunto: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
>
> Hi Ray & List,
>
> I've found that my milage varies with zener diodes as a noise source.
> Same thing with me, I have this one 1N4742 that will wake up the dead!
Stick
> this one in any of our existing circuit designs, and they will clip! Other
> zeners are rather quiet.
> Transistor BE junctions seem to give me more consistent results. I've
found
> 2N5087s (PNP) to be really noisy - at least among the batch that I have.
>
> I've seen your multi-noise source - it's nice!
> A cool idea for the 'grainy' output, would be to make the span of the
window
> comparator voltage controllable, making the 'grainyness' VC'able.
>
> One thing I've found helpful for juction noise sources is to place the CW
and
> CCW ends of a pot across the V+ and V-, connect the wiper to a 47K
resistor,
> connect the other end of the 47K to the noise zener, the other end of the
> zener is connected to ground.  AC couple the 47K/zener to the rest of the
> circuit.
> This way, using the pot, I am able to dial into the 'sweet' spot of the
noise
> source and find the best 'whiteness'.
>
> HTH,
> Oren
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>
> Sent: Oct 16, 2003 4:53 AM
> To: Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
>
> Hi All
>
> In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise source I came to the
> conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent source of noise sources
> (that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time in the past I have
used
> the specified diode and it made more noise than I ever saw before but that
> seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have updated my multi-noise
source
> module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904 in case anyone is
> thinking of building it.
>
> I also finally made boards from the artwork and they do work fine. I
tweaked
> a couple of resistor values too.
>
> It is here:
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
>
> Cheers
>
> Ray
>
>
>
>
<br><br>
Direccion.com<br>
________________________________________________<br>
This
mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0


From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 16 22:39:53 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:39:53 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
In-Reply-To: <1066321076.3f8ec4b4a40cd@www.debitel.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031016081539.00a8c6b0@127.0.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20031016081539.00a8c6b0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031016140957.00a94320@127.0.0.1>

At 10:17 AM 10/16/2003, jhaible at debitel.net wrote:

>Interesting!
>Rounding the beginning ... raised cosine comes to mind. (Not that
>I'd propose using a raised cosine - just seeing the similarity
>of your description and the known advantages of the similar
>raised cosine shape.)
>I guess the perceived attack time would then be shorter than
>the actual time, with the initial rounded part being more like
>a little propagation delay than a rise time.

Yes, right.

It's perhaps interesting to look at the  electrical-mechanical analogy a 
bit here.  You cannot change the position of a body instantaneously, of 
course, but you can't change its velocity instantaneously, either.  This 
requires at least an impulse (m dv = F dt).  But in a single RC circuit, 
while the capacitor's voltage cannot change instantaneously, its current 
can.  So this means that a second order network is needed to get a proper 
physical analog.  Perhaps a starting point would be to just insert an extra 
RC between the driving signal (gate or FF) and the usual RC circuitry.

>Now what about this: Pre-processing the GATE signal with
>a fixed slew rate (linear integration), shaping this with
>a nonlinear circuit, and then using this instead of the GATE
>signal for the asymptode voltage in an ordinary RC-envelope.
>So anything longer than a few milliseconds would behave
>like a normal RC contour, and very fast attacks would be rounded.

Sure.  Maybe the nonlinear circuit could be a squarer with clipping.  Then 
only the leading edge would be affected.  The slew rate could even be variable.

Another thought would be to find a clever way to incorporate the right kind 
of response into a voltage-controlled EG.

   Ian


From fdi at ran.es  Thu Oct 16 22:48:02 2003
From: fdi at ran.es (Fernando de Izuzquiza)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:48:02 -0000
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
Message-ID: <200310161851.h9GIprAe009010@correo.direccion.com>

And I found this page analyzing the noise of the zener, wich sometimes seems
to be quite pink! worth reading :
http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM
http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/CRYPHTML.HTM (main page)

(it seems Peter Blasser's link I sent don't work. Let's see why... Otherwise
I will ask him if I can show you the circuits that where on his pages... the
zener one is two zener noise generator that goes in to a comparator, and the
comparator compares (sorry) the CV with the noise. It can go from clicks to
noise, that's why I remembered while reviewing Ray's circuit)
--



f
*




> De: Oren Leavitt <oleavitt at ix.netcom.com>
> Responder a: Oren Leavitt <oleavitt at ix.netcom.com>
> Fecha: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:50:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> Para: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>, Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Asunto: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
>
> Hi Ray & List,
>
> I've found that my milage varies with zener diodes as a noise source.
> Same thing with me, I have this one 1N4742 that will wake up the dead!
Stick
> this one in any of our existing circuit designs, and they will clip! Other
> zeners are rather quiet.
> Transistor BE junctions seem to give me more consistent results. I've
found
> 2N5087s (PNP) to be really noisy - at least among the batch that I have.
>
> I've seen your multi-noise source - it's nice!
> A cool idea for the 'grainy' output, would be to make the span of the
window
> comparator voltage controllable, making the 'grainyness' VC'able.
>
> One thing I've found helpful for juction noise sources is to place the CW
and
> CCW ends of a pot across the V+ and V-, connect the wiper to a 47K
resistor,
> connect the other end of the 47K to the noise zener, the other end of the
> zener is connected to ground.  AC couple the 47K/zener to the rest of the
> circuit.
> This way, using the pot, I am able to dial into the 'sweet' spot of the
noise
> source and find the best 'whiteness'.
>
> HTH,
> Oren
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>
> Sent: Oct 16, 2003 4:53 AM
> To: Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
>
> Hi All
>
> In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise source I came to the
> conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent source of noise sources
> (that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time in the past I have
used
> the specified diode and it made more noise than I ever saw before but that
> seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have updated my multi-noise
source
> module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904 in case anyone is
> thinking of building it.
>
> I also finally made boards from the artwork and they do work fine. I
tweaked
> a couple of resistor values too.
>
> It is here:
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
>
> Cheers
>
> Ray
<br><br>
Direccion.com<br>
________________________________________________<br>
This
mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0


From jacosloof at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 17 01:29:57 2003
From: jacosloof at yahoo.com (Jaco Sloof)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:29:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Re: 10 step sequencer
In-Reply-To: <p05100300bbb2df2805c4@[10.0.0.158]>
Message-ID: <20031016232957.80521.qmail@web11602.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Dave Krooshof <synthos at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >Still tinkering with cmos myself, still killing 555's)
> Eh, what do you mean... killing... what do they die off?
>
> groets,
> 
> _          >^v<        _
> 
> website http://www.dendriet.nl

They die of uhmm, let me think

Power supply reversal, Power Supply to discharge pin, cap to V+,
putting leds in different pins, etcetera..

so to conclude this all into one word:

"tinkering"

Thats okay though, i have about 50 more...

Greets, 
Jaco Sloof

http://synthsite.8m.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From bobo at decapod.net  Fri Oct 17 01:54:05 2003
From: bobo at decapod.net (Bob Roesler)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:54:05 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Jim Patchell webpages?
In-Reply-To: <00a301c39422$0d6afc60$eefa0250@tardis>
Message-ID: <00ae01c39440$c9cbcba0$6401a8c0@killerobot.com>

try:
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell/

-b

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of s.thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:14 PM
To: synth Diy list
Subject: [sdiy] Jim Patchell webpages?



Hi ..anyone out there (jim maybe ? :-) ) know where  Jim patchell's
webpages have moved to?

cheers
steve thomas


From blacet at blacet.com  Fri Oct 17 02:11:05 2003
From: blacet at blacet.com (John Blacet)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:11:05 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Weller WLC100
References: <78C21185A8FDD611B4E300508B093DE10580B184@phsexch4.partners.org>
Message-ID: <3F8F3399.40513F0D@blacet.com>

Get the WES51; it will last for many years and makes soldering
wonderful.  I'm basing this opinion on the WES50 which we use in
production day in day out......

--
Regards,
--/////--
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Product Announcements, Specials, Hot Deals, join our mailing List:

http://www.blacet.com/mailform2.html





From patchell at cox.net  Fri Oct 17 02:34:03 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:34:03 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Jim Patchell webpages?
In-Reply-To: <00a301c39422$0d6afc60$eefa0250@tardis>
References: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031016173119.00b44a00@pop.west.cox.net>

See the below link....Yeah, I had to move them...everything is now on 
oldcrows server....it kind of sucks that I had to move them...but thems is 
the breaks...in hind sight, I maybe should have shelled out the 20 bucks a 
month to keep it going....but being too cheap...I opted not to.

Many thanks to oldcrow for supply the server space.

At 09:14 PM 10/16/2003 +0100, s.thomas wrote:

>Hi ..anyone out there (jim maybe ? :-) ) know where  Jim patchell's webpages
>have moved to?
>
>cheers
>steve thomas

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

***************************************************



From patchell at cox.net  Fri Oct 17 02:36:28 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:36:28 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Jim Patchell webpages?
In-Reply-To: <002001c3944e$eef80f20$31d84bab@default>
References: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net>
 <00a301c39422$0d6afc60$eefa0250@tardis>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031016173512.00b7e220@pop.west.cox.net>

The full website is at http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

I can only put 10M of stuff on cox (they suck)....

-Jim


At 06:23 PM 10/16/2003 -0700, Scott Stites wrote:
>Hi Steve,
>
>I've got this link:
>
>http://members.cox.net/patchell/
>
>Some of the links on the page work, a number of them don't, though.
>
>Cheers,
>Scott
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "s.thomas" <s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk>
>To: "synth Diy list" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:14 PM
>Subject: [sdiy] Jim Patchell webpages?
>
>
> >
> > Hi ..anyone out there (jim maybe ? :-) ) know where  Jim patchell's
>webpages
> > have moved to?
> >
> > cheers
> > steve thomas
> >
> >

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From rayw at csd.net  Fri Oct 17 03:16:52 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:16:52 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
In-Reply-To: <243912.1066327345374.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANOECGCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

Thanks to both of you. Now I get why I was seeing the inconsistency. I like
the idea of making the graininess VC-able as well. I'm going to have to
think about that. I'm going to try the noise tuning too just to see how it
works.

Thanks alot

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: Oren Leavitt [mailto:oleavitt at ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:02 PM
To: Harry Bissell Jr; Ray Wilson; Synth-Diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise


Good point Harry!

The 1N4742 I mentioned in my previous post is over 30 years old.

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Bissell Jr <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Sent: Oct 16, 2003 9:00 AM
To: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>, Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise

Of course the correct statement would be

zener diodes are not the good noise sources they once
were...

zener diodes (iirc) operate in two regions... a
low voltage area where they are essentially forward
biased junctions (this is for less than 5V units)and
an avalanche mode for higher voltages. So you should
be using a higher voltage zener, less than 5V units
are
about sure not to work.

That said, the higher voltage processes have been
tailored for a LONG time to get rid of the
noise...which
is a bug in a zener diode... not a 'feature'

There ARE special noise diodes, but in general you
will be more sucessful with the reverse biased
transistors...
no one expects you to run them that way so they did
not
take special care to make them quiet

H^) harry



--- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise
> source I came to the
> conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent
> source of noise sources
> (that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time
> in the past I have used
> the specified diode and it made more noise than I
> ever saw before but that
> seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have
> updated my multi-noise source
> module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904
> in case anyone is
> thinking of building it.
>
> I also finally made boards from the artwork and they
> do work fine. I tweaked
> a couple of resistor values too.
>
> It is here:
>
http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
>
> Cheers
>
> Ray
>




From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Fri Oct 17 03:23:34 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:23:34 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Jim Patchell webpages?
References: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net> <00a301c39422$0d6afc60$eefa0250@tardis>
Message-ID: <002001c3944e$eef80f20$31d84bab@default>

Hi Steve,

I've got this link:

http://members.cox.net/patchell/

Some of the links on the page work, a number of them don't, though.

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "s.thomas" <s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk>
To: "synth Diy list" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:14 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Jim Patchell webpages?


>
> Hi ..anyone out there (jim maybe ? :-) ) know where  Jim patchell's
webpages
> have moved to?
>
> cheers
> steve thomas
>
>


From rayw at csd.net  Fri Oct 17 03:26:29 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:26:29 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
In-Reply-To: <002101c3944e$f1afdc20$31d84bab@default>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEECHCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi Scott

I'm glad you found the other 1N4744 that makes noise. Now we both have one
:). Its great to have such a cool resource as this list.

Cheers

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Scott Stites
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 7:32 PM
To: Synth-Diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise


My one and only 1N4744 that I bought at the dusty, musty local electronics
store sure spits out the noise  (I'm using it in Ray's noise application
from his "Sample & Hold and White Noise Generator" circuit).  Of course, as
Harry points out, it's a higher voltage zener.  Or should I go back and buy
all of their vintage zeners? =-D

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Oren Leavitt" <oleavitt at ix.netcom.com>
To: "Harry Bissell Jr" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>; "Ray Wilson"
<rayw at csd.net>; "Synth-Diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise


> Good point Harry!
>
> The 1N4742 I mentioned in my previous post is over 30 years old.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harry Bissell Jr <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> Sent: Oct 16, 2003 9:00 AM
> To: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>, Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
>
> Of course the correct statement would be
>
> zener diodes are not the good noise sources they once
> were...
>
> zener diodes (iirc) operate in two regions... a
> low voltage area where they are essentially forward
> biased junctions (this is for less than 5V units)and
> an avalanche mode for higher voltages. So you should
> be using a higher voltage zener, less than 5V units
> are
> about sure not to work.
>
> That said, the higher voltage processes have been
> tailored for a LONG time to get rid of the
> noise...which
> is a bug in a zener diode... not a 'feature'
>
> There ARE special noise diodes, but in general you
> will be more sucessful with the reverse biased
> transistors...
> no one expects you to run them that way so they did
> not
> take special care to make them quiet
>
> H^) harry
>
>
>
> --- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise
> > source I came to the
> > conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent
> > source of noise sources
> > (that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time
> > in the past I have used
> > the specified diode and it made more noise than I
> > ever saw before but that
> > seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have
> > updated my multi-noise source
> > module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904
> > in case anyone is
> > thinking of building it.
> >
> > I also finally made boards from the artwork and they
> > do work fine. I tweaked
> > a couple of resistor values too.
> >
> > It is here:
> >
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Ray
> >
>
>
>
>
>


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Fri Oct 17 03:31:52 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:31:52 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
References: <243912.1066327345374.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002101c3944e$f1afdc20$31d84bab@default>

My one and only 1N4744 that I bought at the dusty, musty local electronics
store sure spits out the noise  (I'm using it in Ray's noise application
from his "Sample & Hold and White Noise Generator" circuit).  Of course, as
Harry points out, it's a higher voltage zener.  Or should I go back and buy
all of their vintage zeners? =-D

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Oren Leavitt" <oleavitt at ix.netcom.com>
To: "Harry Bissell Jr" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>; "Ray Wilson"
<rayw at csd.net>; "Synth-Diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise


> Good point Harry!
>
> The 1N4742 I mentioned in my previous post is over 30 years old.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harry Bissell Jr <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> Sent: Oct 16, 2003 9:00 AM
> To: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>, Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
>
> Of course the correct statement would be
>
> zener diodes are not the good noise sources they once
> were...
>
> zener diodes (iirc) operate in two regions... a
> low voltage area where they are essentially forward
> biased junctions (this is for less than 5V units)and
> an avalanche mode for higher voltages. So you should
> be using a higher voltage zener, less than 5V units
> are
> about sure not to work.
>
> That said, the higher voltage processes have been
> tailored for a LONG time to get rid of the
> noise...which
> is a bug in a zener diode... not a 'feature'
>
> There ARE special noise diodes, but in general you
> will be more sucessful with the reverse biased
> transistors...
> no one expects you to run them that way so they did
> not
> take special care to make them quiet
>
> H^) harry
>
>
>
> --- Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net> wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise
> > source I came to the
> > conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent
> > source of noise sources
> > (that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time
> > in the past I have used
> > the specified diode and it made more noise than I
> > ever saw before but that
> > seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have
> > updated my multi-noise source
> > module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904
> > in case anyone is
> > thinking of building it.
> >
> > I also finally made boards from the artwork and they
> > do work fine. I tweaked
> > a couple of resistor values too.
> >
> > It is here:
> >
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Ray
> >
>
>
>
>
>


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Fri Oct 17 03:34:49 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:34:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrols in Moog 12 stage phaser
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGEBLCEAA.rayw@csd.net> <1066305990.3f8e89c696415@www.debitel.net>
Message-ID: <002201c3944e$f39e3ea0$31d84bab@default>

Hi JH,

I don't know myself, but I do know the VTL5C2 has been used in a DOD
compressor (IIRC).  Maybe it's got the right curve for that.

I'd be interested in knowing the which Vactrol was in Moog's phaser also, if
you do find out.

Cheers,
Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: <jhaible at debitel.net>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Cc: <analogue at hyperreal.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 5:06 AM
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrols in Moog 12 stage phaser


> Hi,
>
> Does anybody know exactly which type of Vactrols were used in the
> old rackmount Moog 12-stage phaser?
>
> (Speaking of the Compander section. The flter stages are OTA-based,
> of course.)
>
> JH.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> debitel.net Webmail
>


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Fri Oct 17 03:46:24 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:46:24 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
References: <7820762.1066326653429.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F8F49EF.39F293B4@prodigy.net>

There is an EDN Design Idea by Dick Cappels that has a transistor biased by
another transistor in his noise source. Check it out. I have not tried it, but it looks
like it might self-bias to the optimum noise point without changing the resistor
values...

H^) harry

Oren Leavitt wrote:

> Hi Ray & List,
>
> I've found that my milage varies with zener diodes as a noise source.
> Same thing with me, I have this one 1N4742 that will wake up the dead! Stick this one in any of our existing circuit designs, and they will clip! Other zeners are rather quiet.
> Transistor BE junctions seem to give me more consistent results. I've found 2N5087s (PNP) to be really noisy - at least among the batch that I have.
>
> I've seen your multi-noise source - it's nice!
> A cool idea for the 'grainy' output, would be to make the span of the window comparator voltage controllable, making the 'grainyness' VC'able.
>
> One thing I've found helpful for juction noise sources is to place the CW and CCW ends of a pot across the V+ and V-, connect the wiper to a 47K resistor, connect the other end of the 47K to the noise zener, the other end of the zener is connected to ground.  AC couple the 47K/zener to the rest of the circuit.
> This way, using the pot, I am able to dial into the 'sweet' spot of the noise source and find the best 'whiteness'.
>
> HTH,
> Oren
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Wilson <rayw at csd.net>
> Sent: Oct 16, 2003 4:53 AM
> To: Synth-Diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
>
> Hi All
>
> In some recent experimenting with my multi-noise source I came to the
> conclusion that zener diodes are NOT a consistent source of noise sources
> (that sentence sounds a little wierd). At some time in the past I have used
> the specified diode and it made more noise than I ever saw before but that
> seems to be the rare exception. Anyway I have updated my multi-noise source
> module to use a selected 2N2712 or a selected 2N3904 in case anyone is
> thinking of building it.
>
> I also finally made boards from the artwork and they do work fine. I tweaked
> a couple of resistor values too.
>
> It is here:
> http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/multinoisemodule_exp.html
>
> Cheers
>
> Ray


From sbernardi at comcast.net  Fri Oct 17 03:52:09 2003
From: sbernardi at comcast.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:52:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Weller WLC100
In-Reply-To: <78C21185A8FDD611B4E300508B093DE10580B184@phsexch4.partners.org>
References: <78C21185A8FDD611B4E300508B093DE10580B184@phsexch4.partners.org>
Message-ID: <3F8F4B49.5090205@comcast.net>

I've had one for about 2.5 years, and I have no complaints.  I use one 
of the skinny .03 conical tips. Buy an extra tip, because it will 
deteriorate over time. My developed a notch in one side. I tried filing 
it and that _really_ hastened the deterioration!


Metzger, Michael A wrote:

>Any opinions on the Weller WLC100 soldering station? It's on sale at
>Action-Electronics.com for $29.99. It's either that or the WES51 for $69.99.
>WES51 takes the place of the WES50 which I've seen recommended here before. 
>
>BTW, these are killer prices. A Google search shows that these are priced at $50
>and $110 or more from other suppliers. Here's the link for Action:
>http://www.action-electronics.com/mspecial.htm
>
>Thanks.
>Mike
>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at comcast.net




From karldalen at yahoo.se  Fri Oct 17 03:54:41 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 03:54:41 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <1d3.12163b08.2cb3b0bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>

The CEM3374 dual VCO have a temp sensor, i asume
it uses bandgap design but how does that achieve the
+3500ppm scaling, does it perhaps use a 3340 multiplier?

Its no doubt that it works splendid but how sure
could one be that the temp drift are equal on both
VCO's?

It also say that a +/-90mv covers a 10 octave range 
wouldent that put quite some precision requirements
on the OP amps in the DAC reference feedback path
in terms of V offset drift with TC?!

Are there any +3300/3500 silicon temp sensor availabe
on the market? Perhaps it would be more linear then a
NTC, No? Just speculating a bit!

KD

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Fri Oct 17 04:04:29 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:04:29 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Diodes won't make noise
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D77E@SBIEXCHANGE>


Diodes don't make noise. People do.





(sorry, just my feeble attempt at humor)

:)

Tim Servo



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From jmahoney at gate.net  Fri Oct 17 04:06:28 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:06:28 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [OT] webhosting (was Jim Patchell webpages?)
References: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net> <5.2.1.1.2.20031016173119.00b44a00@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <01f701c39453$47087980$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Patchell" <patchell at cox.net>
>
> ...in hind sight, I maybe should have shelled out the 20 bucks a
> month to keep it going....but being too cheap...I opted not to.

If you decide to be a little less cheap :-) my friend (drzyg.com) hosts at
http://www.your-site.com for only $60/year, with 50 Megs of space, 25 POP
emails, etc. A domain costs another $15/year (I register with dotster.com).

So, $75/year = $6.25/mo.
--
john


From patchell at cox.net  Fri Oct 17 04:48:42 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:48:42 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1d3.12163b08.2cb3b0bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031016194521.00b80530@pop.west.cox.net>

I never used the 3374, but I think the idea was to take the temp sensor 
output and use that for the reference for the D/A converter that will be 
controlling the pitch.  The D/A will essentially provide the multiplication 
function.  You could also use the voltage to control the gain of an OTA 
much like I have done on one of my VCO's

http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell/synthmodules/100-1007.pdf

I use an LM13700 or LM13600 to make a very linear two quadrant multiplier.

At 03:54 AM 10/17/2003 +0200, Karl Dalen wrote:
>The CEM3374 dual VCO have a temp sensor, i asume
>it uses bandgap design but how does that achieve the
>+3500ppm scaling, does it perhaps use a 3340 multiplier?
>
>Its no doubt that it works splendid but how sure
>could one be that the temp drift are equal on both
>VCO's?
>
>It also say that a +/-90mv covers a 10 octave range
>wouldent that put quite some precision requirements
>on the OP amps in the DAC reference feedback path
>in terms of V offset drift with TC?!
>
>Are there any +3300/3500 silicon temp sensor availabe
>on the market? Perhaps it would be more linear then a
>NTC, No? Just speculating a bit!
>
>KD
>
>H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen 
>http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************




From synth1 at airmail.net  Fri Oct 17 04:58:14 2003
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:58:14 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
References: <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>

Correct, it uses an on-chip multiplier.

Paul S.


From patchell at cox.net  Fri Oct 17 05:31:34 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:31:34 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031016194521.00b80530@pop.west.cox.net>
References: <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>
 <1d3.12163b08.2cb3b0bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031016203102.00b936e8@pop.west.cox.net>

I have been corrected....what I said was incorrect....

At 07:48 PM 10/16/2003 -0700, James Patchell wrote:
>I never used the 3374, but I think the idea was to take the temp sensor 
>output and use that for the reference for the D/A converter that will be 
>controlling the pitch.  The D/A will essentially provide the 
>multiplication function.  You could also use the voltage to control the 
>gain of an OTA much like I have done on one of my VCO's
>
>http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell/synthmodules/100-1007.pdf
>
>I use an LM13700 or LM13600 to make a very linear two quadrant multiplier.
>
>At 03:54 AM 10/17/2003 +0200, Karl Dalen wrote:
>>The CEM3374 dual VCO have a temp sensor, i asume
>>it uses bandgap design but how does that achieve the
>>+3500ppm scaling, does it perhaps use a 3340 multiplier?
>>
>>Its no doubt that it works splendid but how sure
>>could one be that the temp drift are equal on both
>>VCO's?
>>
>>It also say that a +/-90mv covers a 10 octave range
>>wouldent that put quite some precision requirements
>>on the OP amps in the DAC reference feedback path
>>in terms of V offset drift with TC?!
>>
>>Are there any +3300/3500 silicon temp sensor availabe
>>on the market? Perhaps it would be more linear then a
>>NTC, No? Just speculating a bit!
>>
>>KD
>>
>>H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? 
>>adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
>
>         -Jim
>***************************************************
>I'm a man
>But I can change
>If I have to
>I guess.
>
>Man's Prayer
>Red Green
>
>***************************************************
>http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
>
>http://members.cox.net/patchell
>
>***************************************************
>
>

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************




From gilwein at walla.co.il  Fri Oct 17 10:56:21 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:56:21 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] strange symptoms
Message-ID: <200310170856.h9H8uLR29316@omail2.walla.co.il>

it's strange that the short between the transistor legs is read only when the power is on.

When I turn it off, not short is being read between those spots.

Exactly the same occurs between to other spots that are near each other.


<mboracci at nfpcomputer.com>
RE: [sdiy] strange symptoms

Have you looked for cold ( cracked ) solder joints? They can be very hard to find, however now that the board is clean it will be easier. Breathe on the board closely to create a fog on the solder joints. Hairline cracks will show up as a thin ring around the pin which is protruding through the board. You might be surprised to find many of these which is a common failure on most wave soldered boards. 

Thermal flexing over time can open these cracks and make problems occur years after the board was made. 




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of gilwein at walla.co.il
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:01 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] strange symptoms



Hi.

I have that problematic Kawai SX210 which had it's battery leaking,
probably causing it to behave strangely like playing notes automatically
and playing a few notes when you hit only one key.

I clean all the defective are and replaced a few parts,
replaced the battery and resoldered a few wires.
also cleaned up the whole pcb.

Than it actually stopped playing automatically, 
and a few notes when you hit one key,
BUT, now it misses some notes sometimes,
and sometimes when you hit a chord
the sound comes out in pulses. Also it will play some notes
with a slightly different sound than the preset used.


I replaced a few capacitors and just when starting it up 
the dial wheel has stopped to respond and I now cannot edit
any of the parameters !!!

I noticed that there's a short between two transistor legs
that comes on and off  (the transistor is not leaking and is OK).

I mean sometimes the short is there but sometimes it is not .....

how can this be caused and is this normal ?

I also noticed that the EPROM chip and another (very) large
chip made by Intel, are getting warm after a few minutes of operation (but not too warm...)
is that normal ?

moreover, is there any chance that the EPROM programming 
has gone defected ?

Thanks,

I really want it to get fixed !







Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
http://mail.walla.co.il

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From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Fri Oct 17 11:54:48 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:54:48 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
References: <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <3F8FBC68.3040909@uni-bonn.de>

Paul Schreiber wrote:
> Correct, it uses an on-chip multiplier.

Hi Paul, Karl and Jim,

Paul, I think you meant the 3340.

Quote from the Datasheet:
"For temperature compensation, the 3374 includes an on-chip temperature
sensor which generates an output voltage, nominally +2.5V, proportional
to chip temperature (i.e., with a TC of +3300ppm); by ensuring that the
exponential control voltage is derived from this sensor output (for
instance, by applying it to the reference input of the system DAC),
unsurpassed oscillator stabilities can be archeived."


Cheers,
  Ren?



-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Fri Oct 17 12:09:00 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:09:00 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F04@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F04@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <3F8FBFBC.8020004@uni-bonn.de>

Czech Martin wrote:

> Remedy: ensure via synchronisation that
> the VCO starts at zero when the fast envelope does the transient
> start. So the clicks should be much less audible (well,
> VCA feedthrough will stay, of course).

THe TM116 has an output labelled "trigger" which puts out a very short 
duration pulse to sync oscillators. And VCA feedthrough can usually be 
trimmed.

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Fri Oct 17 14:03:41 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:03:41 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C545@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Well, I assume that the VCA is trimmed already.
Due to drift, aging and mismatch in the die
there will be always some residual feedthrough.
I think.

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ren? Schmitz [mailto:uzs159 at uni-bonn.de]
> Sent: Freitag, 17. Oktober 2003 12:09
> To: Czech Martin
> Cc: Aaron Day; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] MOTM-800 clicks. Arg!
> 
> 
> Czech Martin wrote:
> 
> > Remedy: ensure via synchronisation that
> > the VCO starts at zero when the fast envelope does the transient
> > start. So the clicks should be much less audible (well,
> > VCA feedthrough will stay, of course).
> 
> THe TM116 has an output labelled "trigger" which puts out a 
> very short 
> duration pulse to sync oscillators. And VCA feedthrough can 
> usually be 
> trimmed.
> 
> Cheers,
>   Ren?
> 
> -- 
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> 
> 
> 
> 


From sbernardi at comcast.net  Fri Oct 17 14:37:59 2003
From: sbernardi at comcast.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:37:59 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
References: <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <3F8FE2A7.7000202@comcast.net>

Are you sure that's true for the CEM3374, Paul? I know it's true for the 
3340. The 3374 datasheet says "...the 3374 includes an on-chip 
temperature sensor which generates an output voltage, nominally +2.5v, 
proportional to chip temperature (i.e. with a TC of +3300 ppm); by 
ensuring that the exponential control voltage is derived from this 
sensor output (for instance, by applying it to the reference input of 
the system DAC), unsurpassed oscillator stability can be acheived).
The sensor voltage mentioned most certainly will be a band gap generated 
voltage. This can be scaled internally to +3300ppm by a simple linear 
amplifier and does not require a multiplier. The multiplication is done 
by applying it to the reference voltage of a multiplying DAC whose 
digital inputs are the control voltage.  Once upon a time I looked into 
using AD633's to act as the external multipliers, but ended up using a 
couple of tempco resistors instead 
(http://home.comcast.net/~sbernardi/elec/og2/og2_cem3374.html).  I think 
Jim's idea of using the LM13700 multiplier like in his temp compensated 
VCO would work fine. You'd need two of them.
The 3340 on the other hand, has an onboard analog multiplier which 
multiplies the internal PTAT voltage times the input control voltage. 


Paul Schreiber wrote:

>Correct, it uses an on-chip multiplier.
>
>Paul S.
>
>
>  
>
    Karl Dalen wrote:

    It also say that a ?90mv covers a 10 octave range
    wouldent that put quite some precision requirements
    on the OP amps in the DAC reference feedback path
    in terms of V offset drift with TC?!

The DAC should run at the full scale voltages (1v/octave).  Scale it 
down after the DAC with an inverter, 100K input R and a say a 1.5K + 500 
trimmer (for scale trim) in the feedback path. . This is no different 
than what other VCO designs have.


Its no doubt that it works splendid but how sure
could one be that the temp drift are equal on both
VCO's?

  

There should be pretty good matching between the two VCO's with their 
exponential transistors and the bandgap generator transistors close to 
each other on the same chip.

-- 

Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at comcast.net

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From gilwein at walla.co.il  Fri Oct 17 17:25:12 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:25:12 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
Message-ID: <200310171525.h9HFPC128180@walla.co.il>

Can EPROM programming go defected if you power a synth up without the back battery in the circuit ?

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From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Fri Oct 17 18:51:02 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:51:02 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <3F8FE2A7.7000202@comcast.net>
References: <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net> <3F8FE2A7.7000202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3F901DF6.3020009@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Folks,

I wonder how this would work when multiple 3374s are controlled by the
same DAC. Did they rely on similar temperatures for all chips? (I.e. DAC
reference just from one 3374) Or did they multiplex back the references?

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159





From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Fri Oct 17 21:29:52 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:29:52 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCEEDBCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

Dear Sythesists Deluxe,
Why don't we see much, if any mention of PLL's in synthesizers? It seems
like they could be used for a few interesting things.


MB
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From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Fri Oct 17 21:31:26 2003
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:31:26 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
Message-ID: <14d.255c6845.2cc19d8e@aol.com>


In a message dated 10/17/03 8:37:41 AM, gilwein at walla.co.il writes:

<< Can EPROM programming go defected if you power a synth up without the back 
battery in the circuit ? >>

No.  EPROM's can indeed go bad, but not because of a missing or dead backup 
battery.  BTW, EPROM failure is VERY rare.  Look elsewhere for the problem 
first.

Michael Bacich


From RFahl at extensis.com  Fri Oct 17 21:35:19 2003
From: RFahl at extensis.com (Fahl, Romeo)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:35:19 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers
Message-ID: <D5F7E5DF656DD511B99B0090274F0F9D0473F5F7@EXTENSISNT>

Wiard's Wogglebug uses two CD4046s for it's core.  I think the EDP Wasp used
the same IC in some capacity.
  

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Boracci [mailto:mboracci at nfpcomputer.com]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 12:30 PM
To: Synth-Diy at Dropmix. Xs4all. Nl
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers


Dear Sythesists Deluxe,
Why don't we see much, if any mention of PLL's in synthesizers? It seems
like they could be used for a few interesting things.
 
 
MB

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From music.maker at gte.net  Fri Oct 17 21:48:36 2003
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:48:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers
Message-ID: <200310171948.h9HJmaI24053@linux6.lan>

"Michael Boracci" <mboracci at nfpcomputer.com> wrote:

>Dear Sythesists Deluxe,
>Why don't we see much, if any mention of PLL's in synthesizers? It seems
>like they could be used for a few interesting things.

I put together a PLL that follows a VCO for at least 5 octaves, does
frequency multiplication and provides square wave outs at 12x, 6x, 4x, 3x,
2x, 1.5x, and 1x of the VCO's frequency.  I was surprised by how quickly
it can follow a changing VCO's frequency.  Uses a 4046 and a few 4027 JKs.
 I use it most often to generate a perfect 5th from the input.

http://home1.gte.net/res0658s/fatman/4046pll.html

I've also read of Wiard's WoggleBug which does things with the PLL's VCO
control voltage, such as output it as audio IIRC.

 

=========================================================  
- Where merit is not rewarded, excellence fades.
- Hydrogen is pointless without solar.
- What good are laws that only lawyers understand?
- The media's credibility should always be questioned.
- Governments do nothing well, save collect taxes.

-- Scott Gravenhorst | LegoManiac / Lego Trains / RIS 1.5
-- Linux Rex         | RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FatMan/
-- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/


From synth1 at airmail.net  Fri Oct 17 22:08:52 2003
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:08:52 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers
References: <D5F7E5DF656DD511B99B0090274F0F9D0473F5F7@EXTENSISNT>
Message-ID: <002b01c394ea$81f3c300$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>

Tandy/Radio Shck MG-1 uses one for a Ring Mod sound.

Paul S.
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From jhaible at debitel.net  Fri Oct 17 22:40:22 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:40:22 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
References: <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net> <3F8FE2A7.7000202@comcast.net> <3F901DF6.3020009@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <002001c394ee$e42baa20$b876b9d9@debitel.net>

> I wonder how this would work when multiple 3374s are controlled by the
> same DAC. Did they rely on similar temperatures for all chips? (I.e. DAC
> reference just from one 3374) Or did they multiplex back the references?

I guess multiplexing is the only thing that makes sense. And it would be
quite easy - if you multiplex the DAC output, you can as well multiplex
the DAC reference input.

JH.



From trypannon at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 18 02:03:16 2003
From: trypannon at hotmail.com (Steve Begin)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:03:16 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [OT]Midi as PC input device
Message-ID: <LAW12-OE28VzVzEUPii00005586@hotmail.com>

Is there any software out there that would take midi input and emulate a gamepad or computer keyboard with it?  Er...so for example you could play notes on a controller keyboard and your computer would see it as though you were typing letters?

-Steve
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From patchell at cox.net  Sat Oct 18 02:29:03 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:29:03 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <3F8FBC68.3040909@uni-bonn.de>
References: <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
 <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>
 <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017172809.00b11bc8@pop.west.cox.net>

Well, I stand double corrected...:-)

At 11:54 AM 10/17/2003 +0200, Ren? Schmitz wrote:
>Paul Schreiber wrote:
>>Correct, it uses an on-chip multiplier.
>
>Hi Paul, Karl and Jim,
>
>Paul, I think you meant the 3340.
>
>Quote from the Datasheet:
>"For temperature compensation, the 3374 includes an on-chip temperature
>sensor which generates an output voltage, nominally +2.5V, proportional
>to chip temperature (i.e., with a TC of +3300ppm); by ensuring that the
>exponential control voltage is derived from this sensor output (for
>instance, by applying it to the reference input of the system DAC),
>unsurpassed oscillator stabilities can be archeived."
>
>
>Cheers,
>  Ren?
>
>
>
>--
>uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
>http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>
>

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************




From grichter at asapnet.net  Sat Oct 18 02:29:13 2003
From: grichter at asapnet.net (Grant Richter)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:29:13 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers
In-Reply-To: <D5F7E5DF656DD511B99B0090274F0F9D0473F5F7@EXTENSISNT>
Message-ID: <BBB5F389.3EC9A%grichter@asapnet.net>

See http://www.wiard.com/support/WoggleBug-031001.pdf

From: "Fahl, Romeo" <RFahl at extensis.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:35:19 -0700
To: "Synth-Diy at Dropmix. Xs4all. Nl" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers


Wiard's Wogglebug uses two CD4046s for it's core.  I think the EDP Wasp used
the same IC in some capacity.
  
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Boracci [mailto:mboracci at nfpcomputer.com]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 12:30 PM
To: Synth-Diy at Dropmix. Xs4all. Nl
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers

Dear Sythesists Deluxe,
Why don't we see much, if any mention of PLL's in synthesizers? It seems
like they could be used for a few interesting things.
 

MB



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From patchell at cox.net  Sat Oct 18 02:32:47 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:32:47 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
In-Reply-To: <200310171525.h9HFPC128180@walla.co.il>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017173027.00b85120@pop.west.cox.net>

Well, anything is posible...but off hand, I would say no.  EPROMS are 
pretty rugged.  I have even plugged them in backwards (and the bonding wire 
glow up through the window), and they still work...it is pretty hard to 
changed their programming.

Now EEPROMS are a different story...but you aren't talking about them.

At 05:25 PM 10/17/2003 +0200, gilwein at walla.co.il wrote:
>Can EPROM programming go defected if you power a synth up without the back 
>battery in the circuit ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
><http://mail.walla.co.il>http://mail.walla.co.il

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From patchell at cox.net  Sat Oct 18 02:34:19 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:34:19 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <3F901DF6.3020009@uni-bonn.de>
References: <3F8FE2A7.7000202@comcast.net>
 <20031017015441.87087.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>
 <000d01c3945a$82460420$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
 <3F8FE2A7.7000202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017173320.00b89cc8@pop.west.cox.net>

If I was doing it, I would multiplex all of the band gap references so that 
each dac was using it's own reference...although, that would add a bit more 
complexity to the whole thing...

At 06:51 PM 10/17/2003 +0200, Ren? Schmitz wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>I wonder how this would work when multiple 3374s are controlled by the
>same DAC. Did they rely on similar temperatures for all chips? (I.e. DAC
>reference just from one 3374) Or did they multiplex back the references?
>
>Cheers,
>  Ren?
>
>--
>uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
>http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
>
>
>

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************




From patchell at cox.net  Sat Oct 18 02:36:33 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:36:33 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers
In-Reply-To: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCEEDBCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017173503.00b8f088@pop.west.cox.net>

A few memebers have used PLLs in various projects...I personally, I have 
not found them to be all that useful for doing any synthesizer 
projects...which is why I suspect you don't see them mentioned much.

At 03:29 PM 10/17/2003 -0400, Michael Boracci wrote:
>Dear Sythesists Deluxe,
>Why don't we see much, if any mention of PLL's in synthesizers? It seems 
>like they could be used for a few interesting things.
>
>
>MB

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From patchell at cox.net  Sat Oct 18 02:46:29 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:46:29 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I will be in the PNW at XMas (maybe)
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017174411.00b121d8@pop.west.cox.net>


         Any chance of getting together with anybody up there in the Seatle 
area?

         The days I will most likely be there will be the 24th, 25th and 
26th...although, the 25th is definitely not a free day...



         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From buchty at cs.tum.edu  Sat Oct 18 04:19:15 2003
From: buchty at cs.tum.edu (Rainer Buchty)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 04:19:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] I will be in the PNW at XMas (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017174411.00b121d8@pop.west.cox.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017174411.00b121d8@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310180417570.28056@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>

>          The days I will most likely be there will be the 24th, 25th and
> 26th...although, the 25th is definitely not a free day...

Careful not to mix up dates... Programmers are known to confuse Halloween
and Christmas, cause dec(25) is oct(31) <g>

Rainer


From jmahoney at gate.net  Sat Oct 18 04:35:11 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:35:11 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] I will be in the PNW at XMas (maybe)
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017174411.00b121d8@pop.west.cox.net> <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310180417570.28056@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <058801c39520$7489dcf0$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

> Careful not to mix up dates... Programmers are known to confuse Halloween
> and Christmas, cause dec(25) is oct(31) <g>
>
> Rainer

LOL! That took me a minute!

Here's another one:
There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary, and those who
don't.
--
john


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Sat Oct 18 05:02:23 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 05:02:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017172809.00b11bc8@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20031018030223.26419.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- James Patchell <patchell at cox.net> skrev: 

> Well, I stand double corrected...:-)

Ha, just wait until you have read the CEM3394 data papers! :-)
You will be,,,, well shall we say a bit confushioperplexeselfshure!

Well, i was anyway!

Reg
KD
 
> At 11:54 AM 10/17/2003 +0200, Ren? Schmitz wrote:
> >Paul Schreiber wrote:
> >>Correct, it uses an on-chip multiplier.
> >
> >Hi Paul, Karl and Jim,
> >
> >Paul, I think you meant the 3340.
> >
> >Quote from the Datasheet:
> >"For temperature compensation, the 3374 includes an on-chip temperature
> >sensor which generates an output voltage, nominally +2.5V, proportional
> >to chip temperature (i.e., with a TC of +3300ppm); by ensuring that the
> >exponential control voltage is derived from this sensor output (for
> >instance, by applying it to the reference input of the system DAC),
> >unsurpassed oscillator stabilities can be archeived."
> >
> >
> >Cheers,
> >  Ren?
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> >http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> >
> >
> 
>          -Jim
> ***************************************************
> I'm a man
> But I can change
> If I have to
> I guess.
> 
> Man's Prayer
> Red Green
> 
> ***************************************************
> http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
> 
> http://members.cox.net/patchell
> 
> ***************************************************
> 
> 
>  

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Sat Oct 18 05:08:48 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 05:08:48 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] CEM3374 vco temp sensor 3394
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017173320.00b89cc8@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20031018030848.16146.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com>

The OBI Xpander manual says aproxemately:

:Because the DAC in the expander are a multiplying the
:voltage are directly propotional to the reference.
:When the DAC loads a voltage to the S/H to a VCO the
:temp sensor of that particularely VCO will be used 
:as the reference. Therefore if the internal temperature
:raises its frequency controll voltage will raise propor-
:tionally and keeping the VCO frequency stable.

:The temperature stability of the VCO,s frequency resulting
:of this method are far better than the one achieved with
:the CEM3340... snip...snip, because scaling are performed
:by the multiplying DAC instead of the analog multiplyer
:in the 3340 VCO.

(note each temp sensor from each voice are multiplexed by a 4051.
(the 4051 output goes later to the ref of DAC.)

>Martin  wrote:
>I wonder how this would work when multiple 3374s are controlled by the
>same DAC. Did they rely on similar temperatures for all chips? (I.e. DAC
>reference just from one 3374) Or did they multiplex back the references?

>jh wrote:
>I guess multiplexing is the only thing that makes sense. And it would be
>quite easy - if you multiplex the DAC output, you can as well multiplex
>the DAC reference input.

>Scott wrote:
>The sensor voltage mentioned most certainly will be a band 
>gap generated voltage.This can be scaled internally to +3300ppm by a
>simple linear amplifier and does not require a multiplier.

Now, interesting things creeps up when reading the CEM3394 paper, it says:

:The control scale of the VCO is temperature compensated with an internal
:+3300ppm tempco generator and multiplier. Thus, as chip temperature
:changes, the control voltage applied to the exponential generator
:changes proportional to temperature, effectively canceling the -3300ppm
:tempco of the control scale.

It seams the 3394 VCO contain the sensor of the 3374 and the
multiplier of the 3340? 

Jim's solution are novel but uses a ittle to many components
for my taste. Another interesting issue wich perhaps not have
been thought of:

:The relative amplitudes of the three waveforms have been set as
:follows to give approximately equal loudness The triangle is 27%
:larger than the sawtooth,which is about 27% larger than the pulse wave.

Usually waveforms are scaled equal!
quite clever dude that Mr Curtis!

KD 

- James Patchell <patchell at cox.net> skrev: > If I was doing it, I would
multiplex all of the band gap references so
> that 
> each dac was using it's own reference...although, that would add a bit
> more 
> complexity to the whole thing...

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From oleavitt at ix.netcom.com  Sat Oct 18 05:09:06 2003
From: oleavitt at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:09:06 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I will be in the PNW at XMas (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310180417570.28056@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017174411.00b121d8@pop.west.cox.net> <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310180417570.28056@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <3F90AED2.2080202@ix.netcom.com>

I might be up there during that time too.

There are 10 kinds of people: Those who understand binary and those who 
do not.

Oren - dreaming of a white noise Christmas...

Rainer Buchty wrote:

>>         The days I will most likely be there will be the 24th, 25th and
>>26th...although, the 25th is definitely not a free day...
>>    
>>
>
>Careful not to mix up dates... Programmers are known to confuse Halloween
>and Christmas, cause dec(25) is oct(31) <g>
>
>Rainer
>
>  
>

-- 
Oren Leavitt
oleavitt at ix.netcom.com




From karldalen at yahoo.se  Sat Oct 18 05:19:01 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 05:19:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Lost AN5296 app note!
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017173027.00b85120@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <20031018031901.64072.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>

I've lost my: 
Application Note AN5296 ?Applications of the
CA3018(Ca 3046) Circuit Transistor Array?
for Suggested Applications.

Does any one have this old and
farty app note in PDF format?

Its an old RCA note sold to Harris, then
put into the trash bin by Intersil! 

Thanks!
KD

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From john.l.marshall at gte.net  Sat Oct 18 06:57:22 2003
From: john.l.marshall at gte.net (John L Marshall)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:57:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I will be in the PNW at XMas (maybe)
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017174411.00b121d8@pop.west.cox.net> <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310180417570.28056@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <002b01c39534$517f2170$6601a8c0@PURPLE>

Great one. I will use that in class Monday.

Take care,
John
------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sound-photo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rainer Buchty" <buchty at cs.tum.edu>
To: "James Patchell" <patchell at cox.net>
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] I will be in the PNW at XMas (maybe)


> >          The days I will most likely be there will be the 24th, 25th and
> > 26th...although, the 25th is definitely not a free day...
>
> Careful not to mix up dates... Programmers are known to confuse Halloween
> and Christmas, cause dec(25) is oct(31) <g>
>
> Rainer


From anders.sponton at vallnet.nu  Sat Oct 18 09:36:42 2003
From: anders.sponton at vallnet.nu (Anders Sponton)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:36:42 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] WTB: Frontpanel
Message-ID: <000601c3954a$98d60ff0$4b97643e@Moog>

Hi list
Anybody got a spare frontpanel for a Transcendent 2000? I also need
information about the probably Phonosonic TD2000 synth kit. The PCB I?ve
got isn?t the Powertran one that is in the article on my site. This PCB
have some different layout, mainly in the kbd input on the main PCB.
There is also a PCB containing a 566 VCO and 8 multiturn trimmers that
have been located between the kdb and main PCB input.
Any "oldtimer" remember this mod?

Anders, Sweden
http://omega.tellus.vallentuna.se/anders/




From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Sat Oct 18 11:56:59 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:56:59 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] PLL's in synthesizers
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017173503.00b8f088@pop.west.cox.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031017173503.00b8f088@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <03101811565906.00699@Robert>

On Saturday 18 October 2003 02:36, James Patchell wrote:
> A few memebers have used PLLs in various projects...I personally, I
> have not found them to be all that useful for doing any synthesizer
> projects...which is why I suspect you don't see them mentioned much.

I was about to agree and then had a "wait a minute" moment...

A stock PLL consists of a phase-frequency discriminator that compares 
an input signal with the VCO signal in some way, a (linear) VCO and a 
loop filter. The output of the PFD goes to the loop filter and the 
filtered signal controls the VCO. This general topology can be used to 
lock phase, frequency or delay of input and output signal with some 
modifications to the detector and loop filter. Typical applications are 
clock recovery and deskewing, frequency synthesis from a reference and 
FM demodulation.

On the other hand, this seemingly simple structure can be bent in many 
ways. Replace the PFD with something else, like or-ed together zero 
detectors for input and output. Sync the VCO to some other input, or 
see what happens if you use the exponential input instead of the 
linear. Throw a monkey wrench in the loop filter path so that the loop 
becomes instable or cannot lock. Use a BPF/HPF instead of an LPF or 
perhaps a voltage controlled filter? Make wider loops over some more 
filters and/or VCO.

The best thing is, you probably already have everything you need if you 
have a modular synth and one can whack up some digital mayhem for the 
PFD pretty easily from a few CMOS gates.


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

SD adaptations for
Waldorf Q V3.00R2, Q+ V3.54R1, microQ V2.22R1 and rackAttack V1.04R1:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfSDada



From sasami at hotkey.net.au  Sat Oct 18 12:34:22 2003
From: sasami at hotkey.net.au (Ken Stone)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:34:22 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] CGS pcbs back in stock
Message-ID: <200310181034.h9IAYME16658@duckula.hotkey.net.au>

I've just received a new shipment of PCBs, so those who have been waiting
for the restock can now order. Steiner VCFs ARE back in stock.
There are a couple of new designs coming too, and I hope to have the details
for these on the web site within the next week or so too.

Have fun!

Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone   sasami at hotkey.net.au  
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/synth/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>


From thomasholley at adelphia.net  Sat Oct 18 19:22:47 2003
From: thomasholley at adelphia.net (Thomas Holley)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:22:47 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
Message-ID: <000c01c3959c$73682df0$a799fea9@Home>

    I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help

Thomas
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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Oct 18 19:57:48 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:57:48 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
References: <000c01c3959c$73682df0$a799fea9@Home>
Message-ID: <3F917F1B.40975853@prodigy.net>

Hi Thomas

Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
voltages...
so the current source should go on the highest note side...

H^) harry

Thomas Holley wrote:

>     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
> the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when
> it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
> current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help Thomas


From madhun2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 18 20:19:06 2003
From: madhun2001 at yahoo.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Weller parts available
In-Reply-To: <20031016232957.80521.qmail@web11602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031018181906.12846.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey,

I have some Weller replacement parts that I no longer
need:

EC234  Heater, plug-in style, 2 each
SW60   Switch

Sell or trade. I thought I would give you folks first
shot. Next stop, eBay.

--Tim Ressel


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From thomasholley at adelphia.net  Sat Oct 18 21:12:44 2003
From: thomasholley at adelphia.net (Thomas Holley)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:12:44 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
References: <000c01c3959c$73682df0$a799fea9@Home> <3F917F1B.40975853@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <000501c395ab$d18e3550$a799fea9@Home>

Thanks Harry,
 I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source is to
one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little spring
contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for the
controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the current
source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this arrangement I
think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to give
the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right or do
I have it turned around?

Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


> Hi Thomas
>
> Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
> voltages...
> so the current source should go on the highest note side...
>
> H^) harry
>
> Thomas Holley wrote:
>
> >     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> > resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
> > the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> > soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when
> > it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
> > current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help Thomas
>
>



From gilwein at walla.co.il  Sat Oct 18 21:47:10 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:47:10 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] looking for Kawai SX-210 schematics
Message-ID: <200310181947.h9IJlAE04757@omail1.walla.co.il>


Hi, I need this scheme... does anyone have it ?

Thanks.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
http://mail.walla.co.il

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From gilwein at walla.co.il  Sat Oct 18 21:48:09 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:48:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] 3 layer PCB ?
Message-ID: <200310181948.h9IJm9b04448@omail2.walla.co.il>


Is there a chance that the problematic Kawai SX-210 I have uses a 3 layer PCB ? it's from '83.

Thanks.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://mail.walla.co.il

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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Oct 18 23:02:50 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:02:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
References: <000c01c3959c$73682df0$a799fea9@Home> <3F917F1B.40975853@prodigy.net> <000501c395ab$d18e3550$a799fea9@Home>
Message-ID: <3F91AA79.929D7E2C@prodigy.net>

Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)

H^) harry

Thomas Holley wrote:

> Thanks Harry,
>  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source is to
> one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
> ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little spring
> contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
> grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for the
> controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the current
> source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this arrangement I
> think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to give
> the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right or do
> I have it turned around?
>
> Thomas
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>
> > Hi Thomas
> >
> > Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
> > voltages...
> > so the current source should go on the highest note side...
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > Thomas Holley wrote:
> >
> > >     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> > > resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
> > > the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> > > soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when
> > > it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
> > > current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help Thomas
> >
> >


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sat Oct 18 23:05:30 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:05:30 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] 3 layer PCB ?
References: <200310181948.h9IJm9b04448@omail2.walla.co.il>
Message-ID: <3F91AB19.BA3CF701@prodigy.net>

afaik... there are no existing examples of a three sided PCB...
The manufacturing process for multilayer automatically gives you
'two' sides with every added layer, so usually they are 2 layer,
4 layer, 6 layer etc...

it would be possible to make a three layer board by laminating a
double sided to a single sided... but I've NEVER heard of it

H^) harry

gilwein at walla.co.il wrote:

>
>
  Is there a chance that the problematic Kawai SX-210 I have uses a 3
  layer PCB ? it's from '83.

  Thanks.
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
> http://mail.walla.co.il


From gilwein at walla.co.il  Sun Oct 19 00:40:57 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 00:40:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Great guide for battery leakage synth repair !!
Message-ID: <200310182240.h9IMevM04605@omail1.walla.co.il>

I just came across this great guide for restoring a defected PCB after leakage of a Nicd battery....


http://www.oldcrows.net/%7Eoldcrow/synth/korg/polysix/index.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
http://mail.walla.co.il

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From rayw at csd.net  Sun Oct 19 01:53:21 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:53:21 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
In-Reply-To: <000c01c3959c$73682df0$a799fea9@Home>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANAEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

Here are some ideas and info about the side to put the current source to. I
agree with Harry and the design I show has the current source feeding the
top of the keyboard.

http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/keybrdcontroller.html

Ray
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Thomas Holley
  Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 11:23 AM
  To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
  Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


      I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or the low
pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and soldered up a 100
ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when it finally dawned on me
that I had not a clue which side to put the current source on and which one
to ground. Thanks for your help

  Thomas
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From rayw at csd.net  Sun Oct 19 01:58:39 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:58:39 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
In-Reply-To: <3F91AA79.929D7E2C@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi Guys

Just a note on this. I feed the current from the top end of the keyboard and
I still get low note priority because when more than one key is pressed you
are essentially bypassing all of the intervening resistors and since the
current is constant (in the design I use) you get the voltage that is
dropped across the low side of the resistor ladder.

Ray



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:03 PM
To: Thomas Holley
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)

H^) harry

Thomas Holley wrote:

> Thanks Harry,
>  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source is to
> one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
> ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little spring
> contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
> grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for the
> controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the current
> source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this arrangement I
> think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to give
> the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right or
do
> I have it turned around?
>
> Thomas
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>
> > Hi Thomas
> >
> > Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
> > voltages...
> > so the current source should go on the highest note side...
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > Thomas Holley wrote:
> >
> > >     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> > > resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
> > > the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> > > soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when
> > > it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
> > > current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help Thomas
> >
> >


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Sun Oct 19 02:48:00 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:48:00 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <3F91DF3F.E5F019B6@prodigy.net>

Hi Ray (et al)

I did it differently... I take the output from the current source... and I
ground the
resistor matrix through the keys.

You are picking off the voltage to the 'bus buffer'.

I did the grounded key so that I could get two CV from the keyboard. I used
two current sources, and inverted the upper one so that I had low note / high
note
priority

H^) harry

Ray Wilson wrote:

> Hi Guys
>
> Just a note on this. I feed the current from the top end of the keyboard and
> I still get low note priority because when more than one key is pressed you
> are essentially bypassing all of the intervening resistors and since the
> current is constant (in the design I use) you get the voltage that is
> dropped across the low side of the resistor ladder.
>
> Ray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:03 PM
> To: Thomas Holley
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>
> Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
> also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)
>
> H^) harry
>
> Thomas Holley wrote:
>
> > Thanks Harry,
> >  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source is to
> > one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
> > ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little spring
> > contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
> > grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for the
> > controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the current
> > source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this arrangement I
> > think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to give
> > the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right or
> do
> > I have it turned around?
> >
> > Thomas
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> > To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
> >
> > > Hi Thomas
> > >
> > > Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
> > > voltages...
> > > so the current source should go on the highest note side...
> > >
> > > H^) harry
> > >
> > > Thomas Holley wrote:
> > >
> > > >     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> > > > resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
> > > > the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> > > > soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when
> > > > it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
> > > > current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help Thomas
> > >
> > >


From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Sun Oct 19 03:29:45 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:29:45 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Peeeeee N 5172
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <BBB73719.DF21%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

Anyone out there know the pins outs for a PN5172?

The one I have is plastic and the leads are arranged in a tirangle like
metal cans, with the center lead cocked back about .1 inches.

thanks in advance,

Peeeeeeter


From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Sun Oct 19 03:30:40 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:30:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Paging Scott Evens, General Mangler
In-Reply-To: <3F91AB19.BA3CF701@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <BBB73750.DF22%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

Scott??



From _nial_ at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 19 04:54:18 2003
From: _nial_ at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Ekdahl?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 04:54:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
Message-ID: <20031019025418.29946.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello everyone, i'm going to build a SID modular (or
to-be-modular) and since i'm a newbie i'd love to get
some comments from you before i start, in case i've
done some bad thinking....

Here's what i've been thinking so far:
http://medlem.spray.se/cocospalme/xqzp/sidmodular.html

Thanks

/Karl

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From thomasholley at adelphia.net  Sun Oct 19 06:39:18 2003
From: thomasholley at adelphia.net (Thomas Holley)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 00:39:18 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net> <3F91DF3F.E5F019B6@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <002301c395fa$f552c1f0$a799fea9@Home>

Thanks for the links and the insight into keyboard controllers. This is an
immense help. I will update my progress if I don't blow something up first.

Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
To: "Ray Wilson" <rayw at csd.net>
Cc: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>;
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


> Hi Ray (et al)
>
> I did it differently... I take the output from the current source... and I
> ground the
> resistor matrix through the keys.
>
> You are picking off the voltage to the 'bus buffer'.
>
> I did the grounded key so that I could get two CV from the keyboard. I
used
> two current sources, and inverted the upper one so that I had low note /
high
> note
> priority
>
> H^) harry
>
> Ray Wilson wrote:
>
> > Hi Guys
> >
> > Just a note on this. I feed the current from the top end of the keyboard
and
> > I still get low note priority because when more than one key is pressed
you
> > are essentially bypassing all of the intervening resistors and since the
> > current is constant (in the design I use) you get the voltage that is
> > dropped across the low side of the resistor ladder.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:03 PM
> > To: Thomas Holley
> > Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
> >
> > Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
> > also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > Thomas Holley wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Harry,
> > >  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source is
to
> > > one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
> > > ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little
spring
> > > contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
> > > grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for
the
> > > controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the
current
> > > source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this arrangement
I
> > > think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to
give
> > > the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right
or
> > do
> > > I have it turned around?
> > >
> > > Thomas
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> > > To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
> > > Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
> > >
> > > > Hi Thomas
> > > >
> > > > Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
> > > > voltages...
> > > > so the current source should go on the highest note side...
> > > >
> > > > H^) harry
> > > >
> > > > Thomas Holley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> > > > > resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key
or
> > > > > the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> > > > > soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder
when
> > > > > it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put
the
> > > > > current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help
Thomas
> > > >
> > > >
>
>



From john.l.marshall at gte.net  Sun Oct 19 07:03:25 2003
From: john.l.marshall at gte.net (John L Marshall)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:03:25 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
References: <20031019025418.29946.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001301c395fe$5403c1b0$6901a8c0@PURPLE>

Karl,

Why?

Take care,
John
------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sound-photo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karl Ekdahl" <_nial_ at yahoo.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 7:54 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular


> Hello everyone, i'm going to build a SID modular (or
> to-be-modular) and since i'm a newbie i'd love to get
> some comments from you before i start, in case i've
> done some bad thinking....
>
> Here's what i've been thinking so far:
> http://medlem.spray.se/cocospalme/xqzp/sidmodular.html
>
> Thanks
>
> /Karl
>
> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From teenagewasteland at prodigy.net  Sun Oct 19 08:59:36 2003
From: teenagewasteland at prodigy.net (MED)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:59:36 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
In-Reply-To: <001301c395fe$5403c1b0$6901a8c0@PURPLE>
References: <20031019025418.29946.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com> <001301c395fe$5403c1b0$6901a8c0@PURPLE>
Message-ID: <200310190159.36323.teenagewasteland@prodigy.net>

On Sunday 19 October 2003 00:03, John L Marshall wrote:
> Karl,
>
> Why?

I was gonna be flip and say "why not?"
But I decided to be a bit more in depth.
here's some pros and cons of this idea.
Pros:
1) It's a SID chip.
2) SIDs are still (relatively) plentiful and cheap -- if you buy them inside a 
commodore.
3) It's modular.
4) The SID has many interesting sounds.
5) Because you can.
6) Because cloning it would be much more work (there were a *lot* of 
compromises that went into its design, and to recreate the flaws in a 
musically useful way would be a major PITA without direct help from its 
maker)

Cons:
1) It's a SID chip.
2) Locked into the specific sounds the SID provides
3) Still a PITA to build, but less of one.
4) Modularity is a kludge for this chip.
5) No word on what the future will bring in terms of availability -- if people 
still love the SID sound, they could (in the distant future) be as rare as 
sn77647 or whatever they're numbered.
6) you're building off someone's untested design -- and if you're new to 
synths, there could be glaring errors or assumptions made of which you are 
unaware.

I'm out of pros/cons.

-med


From Yves.Usson at imag.fr  Sun Oct 19 14:35:05 2003
From: Yves.Usson at imag.fr (Yves Usson)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:35:05 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
In-Reply-To: <3F91DF3F.E5F019B6@prodigy.net>
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <l03102801bbb83321492a@[152.77.212.49]>

Hi

You may find interesting to look at the schemetics of Moog Modulars dual
note keyboard
controller. It uses both the higher and the lower note. The schematics can
be found in
the Technical Service Manual of the Moog Modular System either at
www.physicsenterprises.andrews.edu.
http://www.physicsenterprises.andrews.edu/diy_archive/manuals/moog/modular/mod_4
0.gif
or at http://www.hylander.com/moogschematics.html  (PDF file)

Yves

http://www-timc.imag.fr/Yves.Usson/personnel/SDIY/



_________________________________________________
Yves USSON - Institut Ing?ni?rie et Information pour la Sant?
Domaine de la Merci, F38706 La Tronche cedex, France

http://www-timc.imag.fr/Yves.Usson/




From martin at manikin.force9.co.uk  Sun Oct 19 15:21:24 2003
From: martin at manikin.force9.co.uk (Martin Fay)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:21:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electric Eye 2
Message-ID: <7935pvsh6hpu7oc717es824fsjd6frkjp6@4ax.com>

One of my beta testers has been doing some experimental work, I
thought it might be of interest:

"Just back from an immense project in Adelaide for the ABC, where we
did a radio show about Percy Grainger's lost experimental music,
including rebuilding his light controlled synth, the Electric Eye 2
machine from the 1950s (photo enclosed).  If you listen to web radio
at all, the show is streamable from http://www.abc.net.au/classic/nma/
for the next 10 days.  It's the Oct 15 show.

Warren Burt"

A small version of the mentioned photo is at:
http://www.martinfay.com/images/ElectricEye2Small.jpg


Martin

| VAZ virtual analogue synths | www.monosect.com
| www.software-technology.com | electronoiseclash


From t.hogers at home.nl  Sun Oct 19 16:04:23 2003
From: t.hogers at home.nl (Theo)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:04:23 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] New filter project 8 pole / dual 4 pole morphing filter
Message-ID: <000b01c39649$e69354a0$d37478d4@ensch1.ov.home.nl>

This is a multifunction VCF idea I've been sitting on for quite a while.
The analogue part is already on a PCB and the digital part will follow soon
after.
However some help on the math side, especially the filter transfer functions
would be greatly appreciated.

It is a  combination of two 4 pole multifunction VCF but with e-pot based
output mixers.
This makes it possible to "morph" from one filtermode to an other by
cross-fading between the mixer settings needed.
Using the two filters in series (with same "pan" and "cutoff" settings)
allows up to 8 pole filter functions.
For a block diagram of the contraption please see;
http://members.home.nl/tidal/Morhp%20filter%20block%20diagram.gif

The filter is build on two PCBs.
PCB one holds two Vactrol based VCFs and the Cutoff CV inputs/led steering
for the Vactrols.
On the second PCB there is a ATmega8 AVR uC and a bunch of e-pot ICs.
The internal ADC of the AVR handles the CV input for:
- Resonance, morph & pan of both filters ( 6 CV inputs)
- Serial/Parallel and Ext-input level for the second filter (2 CV inputs)
The AVR also handles a small LCD, 4 buttons and encoders for manual
parameter control.

If there is enough interest I will make the PCBs and schematics available
later on when the proto is finished.

I've already calculated the mixer setting needed for all possible;
- Low-pass
- High-pass.
- Symmetric & asymmetric Band-pass
- 2 pole Notch & 4 pole Notch

My question what other filter functions are useful and what are the transfer
functions.
Other Notch and All-pass functions come to mind,
maybe there are even more filter types beyond these?

A search through the literature wasn't very helpful.
Either only basic LP, HP and BP functions where given
or just one formula describing every possible transfer function in the
complex plane.
The latter being far over my head.

First there are the Notch functions:
Going from the 2 and 4 pole Notch transfer functions my guess is that,

6 pole Notch would be:  (S^6 + 3S^4 + 3S^2 + 1) / (1+S)^2

and 8 pole Notch : (S^8 + 4S^6 + 6S^4 + 4S^2 + 1) / (1+S)^2

Is this right??
Also do there exist 3 pole, 5 pole and 7 pole notch functions, similar to
asymmetric BP?
What are the transfer functions of there?

Then there are the All-pass filters, what are the transfer functions for
these?
Again help would be appreciated.

Regards,
Theo


From rayw at csd.net  Sun Oct 19 16:25:07 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 08:25:07 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] OT - Double emails happening...
In-Reply-To: <002301c395fa$f552c1f0$a799fea9@Home>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEELCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

Hi All

Could it be that we are sometimes inadvertently putting the synth-diy
address in the To... and the CC... so that the email system thinkns it is
doing the right thing by sending two emails to the list?

Just a thought.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Thomas Holley
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 10:39 PM
To: harrybissell; Ray Wilson
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


Thanks for the links and the insight into keyboard controllers. This is an
immense help. I will update my progress if I don't blow something up first.

Thomas
----- Original Message -----
From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
To: "Ray Wilson" <rayw at csd.net>
Cc: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>;
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


> Hi Ray (et al)
>
> I did it differently... I take the output from the current source... and I
> ground the
> resistor matrix through the keys.
>
> You are picking off the voltage to the 'bus buffer'.
>
> I did the grounded key so that I could get two CV from the keyboard. I
used
> two current sources, and inverted the upper one so that I had low note /
high
> note
> priority
>
> H^) harry
>
> Ray Wilson wrote:
>
> > Hi Guys
> >
> > Just a note on this. I feed the current from the top end of the keyboard
and
> > I still get low note priority because when more than one key is pressed
you
> > are essentially bypassing all of the intervening resistors and since the
> > current is constant (in the design I use) you get the voltage that is
> > dropped across the low side of the resistor ladder.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:03 PM
> > To: Thomas Holley
> > Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
> >
> > Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
> > also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > Thomas Holley wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Harry,
> > >  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source is
to
> > > one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
> > > ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little
spring
> > > contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
> > > grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for
the
> > > controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the
current
> > > source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this arrangement
I
> > > think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to
give
> > > the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right
or
> > do
> > > I have it turned around?
> > >
> > > Thomas
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> > > To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
> > > Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
> > >
> > > > Hi Thomas
> > > >
> > > > Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
> > > > voltages...
> > > > so the current source should go on the highest note side...
> > > >
> > > > H^) harry
> > > >
> > > > Thomas Holley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> > > > > resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key
or
> > > > > the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> > > > > soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder
when
> > > > > it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put
the
> > > > > current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help
Thomas
> > > >
> > > >
>
>


From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Sun Oct 19 17:27:37 2003
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 01:27:37 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Electric Eye 2
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20031019152737.00d1ea9c@popa.melbpc.org.au>


>machine from the 1950s (photo enclosed).  If you listen to web radio
>at all, the show is streamable from http://www.abc.net.au/classic/nma/
>for the next 10 days.  It's the Oct 15 show.
>Warren Burt"
>
Curiously enough, I got roped into doing the electronics for this
Oramic-like gadget. 
LM3700 triangle oscillators for the VCOs, and MC3340 VCAs (these were old
TV remote volume control chips, too much CV feedthru for synth work, but
OK for this). I used 1 X 1.5 inch solar cells as pickups for the light,
worked a treat.

paul perry (Frostwave analog fx) Melbourne Australia



From thomasholley at adelphia.net  Sun Oct 19 19:08:11 2003
From: thomasholley at adelphia.net (Thomas Holley)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:08:11 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
References: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net> <l03102801bbb83321492a@[152.77.212.49]>
Message-ID: <001901c39663$934865f0$a799fea9@Home>

Thanks for the links. I like the idea of the dual note keyboard.

Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yves Usson" <Yves.Usson at imag.fr>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


> Hi
>
> You may find interesting to look at the schemetics of Moog Modulars dual
> note keyboard
> controller. It uses both the higher and the lower note. The schematics can
> be found in
> the Technical Service Manual of the Moog Modular System either at
> www.physicsenterprises.andrews.edu.
>
http://www.physicsenterprises.andrews.edu/diy_archive/manuals/moog/modular/mod_4
> 0.gif
> or at http://www.hylander.com/moogschematics.html  (PDF file)
>
> Yves
>
> http://www-timc.imag.fr/Yves.Usson/personnel/SDIY/
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________
> Yves USSON - Institut Ing?ni?rie et Information pour la Sant?
> Domaine de la Merci, F38706 La Tronche cedex, France
>
> http://www-timc.imag.fr/Yves.Usson/
>
>
>
>



From buchty at cs.tum.edu  Sun Oct 19 19:47:24 2003
From: buchty at cs.tum.edu (Rainer Buchty)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:47:24 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
In-Reply-To: <200310190159.36323.teenagewasteland@prodigy.net>
References: <20031019025418.29946.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com>
 <001301c395fe$5403c1b0$6901a8c0@PURPLE> <200310190159.36323.teenagewasteland@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310191915010.22775@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>

> 6) Because cloning it would be much more work (there were a *lot* of
> compromises that went into its design, and to recreate the flaws in a
> musically useful way would be a major PITA without direct help from its
> maker)

The maker already gave that help in form of an interview. The resid people
figured out the missing parts.

The waves are created using a 24-bit phase accumulator with 16-bit
frequency control. For sawtooth, the upper 12 bits (23-12) are directly
sent to the DAC. For triangle only bits 22-12 are sent to the DAC, bit 23
controls polarity (XORing bits 22-12 with 0x7ff). For pulse, the upper 12
bits are sent to a comparator which compares the current phase with a
12-bit reference (pulse width) value and outputs either a 1 or a 0 which
is sent to all 12 bits of the DAC.

Noise wave generation is well described in the resid-sources; it's a
23-bit pseudo-random sequence generator clocked by one of the intermediate
bits of the accumulator The upper 12 bits of the shift register are fed
into the DAC.

Hard-sync was done by clearing the accumulator of an oscillator based on
the accumulator MSB of the previous oscillator (thus, the hierarchy 1
syncs 2, 2 syncs 3 and 3 syncs 1). Ring modulation was done by sustituting
the accumulator MASB of an oscillator in the XOR function of the triangle
waveform generator with the accumulator MSB of the previous oscillator
(which is, why ringmod works only with the triangle waveform switched on).

Waveform mixing was done with transistors -- one per bit and waveform.

The envelope generator is a 8-bit up/down counter and switchable clock
rates, e.g. when triggered by the gate bit it counts from 0-255 using the
attack rate, then from 255 to sustain-level at decay rate. Once the
gate bit is cleared, the counter counts down to 0 at release rate. The
trick here was, that to get somewhat exponential behavior, the clock rate
is divided by two at distinct points to create "a pice-wise linear
approximation of an exponential" for decay and release rate. Attack rate
was linear. This model also explains, why you can always count down the
sustain level but never up while a note is played.

8-bit output of the envelope generator is fed in to a DAC; that DAC's
reference voltage is determined by the output of the waveform DAC.

The filter is a state-variable design built with FETs used as
voltage-controlled resistors for frequency control, a 4-bit weighted
resistor ladder for Q control. As far as I understand the interview,
NMOS buffers were used as operational amplifiers.

Here's what filter.h of the resid-package shows as the filter model:

     -----------------------------------------------
    |                                               |
    |            ---Rq--                            |
    |           |       |                           |
    |  ------------<A]-----R1---------              |
    | |                               |             |
    | |                        ---C---|      ---C---|
    | |                       |       |     |       |
    |  --R1--    ---R1--      |---Rs--|     |---Rs--|
    |        |  |       |     |       |     |       |
     ----R1--|-----[A>--|--R-----[A>--|--R-----[A>--|
             |          |             |             |
 vi -----R1--           |             |             |
                       vhp           vbp           vlp

 vi  - input voltage
 vhp - highpass output
 vbp - bandpass output
 vlp - lowpass output
 [A> - op-amp
 R1  - summer resistor
 Rq  - resistor array controlling resonance (4 resistors)
 R   - NMOS FET voltage controlled resistor controlling cutoff frequency
 Rs  - shunt resitor
 C   - capacitor

 SID integrator
 --------------

                                   V+
                                   |
                                   |
                              -----|
                             |     |
                             | ||--
                              -||
                   ---C---     ||->
                  |       |        |
                  |---Rs-----------|---- vo
                  |                |
                  |            ||--
 vi ----     -----|------------||
        |   ^     |            ||->
        |___|     |                |
        -----     |                |
          |       |                |
          |---R2--                 |
          |                        V-
          R1
          |
          |
          Vw

That model comes pretty close to the original SID sound, however, the
current "fights" on the emulation front is about the differences between
the various 6581 revisions and the 8580 (which seems to deliver a more
constant sound over the revisions) to be able to reproduce the truly
original sound of certain tunes. For a home-brew synth-based SID, that's a
minor concern I think.

Rainer


From aon.912230836 at aon.at  Sun Oct 19 21:36:16 2003
From: aon.912230836 at aon.at (Jaroslaw Ziembicki)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:36:16 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] New filter project 8 pole / dual 4 pole morphing filter
References: <000b01c39649$e69354a0$d37478d4@ensch1.ov.home.nl>
Message-ID: <001701c39678$5c0f3bd0$f0032e3e@JAREK>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Theo" <t.hogers at home.nl>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 4:04 PM
Subject: [sdiy] New filter project 8 pole / dual 4 pole morphing filter


> This is a multifunction VCF idea I've been sitting on for quite a while.
> The analogue part is already on a PCB and the digital part will follow
soon
> after.
> However some help on the math side, especially the filter transfer
functions
> would be greatly appreciated.


Theo,
Some months ago I built a multimode VCF, and I wrote a C program which
plots the filter's frequency response on the screen.
The filter consists of N current-controlled integrators (CA3080+capacitor+
+voltage follower). All their outputs are being mixed. One mix is the output
and another one is the feedback.
In my program I can change the mix coefficients (from -1.0 to +1.0) and
observe the influence on the frequency response. The response formula
is also written on the screen (as a function of S).
I can send you the C source code if you want.
By the way: I built my filter (with 4 integrators), heard the results and
was
disappointed... I expected much more. I think you'll get better results with
your 8 stages.

Regards
Jarek




From _nial_ at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 19 23:58:13 2003
From: _nial_ at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Ekdahl?=)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:58:13 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
In-Reply-To: <001301c395fe$5403c1b0$6901a8c0@PURPLE>
Message-ID: <20031019215813.3012.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com>

1. The SID sound is perfect for the semi-lofi synthpop
me and my friend is doing.
2. Its cheap, i've got a really tight economy and i've
allready got almost all the parts needed.
3. It will be a pretty quick project i imagine.
4. I know digital electronics much better then analog
so by first making a digital unit that later can be
interfaced with analog, i have a good learning ground.

/Karl

 --- John L Marshall <john.l.marshall at gte.net> skrev:
> Karl,
> 
> Why?
> 
> Take care,
> John
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> www.sound-photo.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Karl Ekdahl" <_nial_ at yahoo.com>
> To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 7:54 PM
> Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
> 
> 
> > Hello everyone, i'm going to build a SID modular
> (or
> > to-be-modular) and since i'm a newbie i'd love to
> get
> > some comments from you before i start, in case
> i've
> > done some bad thinking....
> >
> > Here's what i've been thinking so far:
> >
>
http://medlem.spray.se/cocospalme/xqzp/sidmodular.html
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > /Karl
> >
> > H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p?
> Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
> http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
>  


H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From colin at colinfraser.com  Mon Oct 20 00:19:32 2003
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:19:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of sound on BBC4 digital tv in UK
In-Reply-To: <3F8E909B.4019A9F7@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <000001c3968f$126d5270$0101a8c0@ZEN>

> just thought you might be interested to know that on Sunday at 9pm on
> BBC4 the Digital Tv channel in the uk there is a program called
> Alchemists of sound .
> the trailer that I saw had shots of the radiophonic workshop, 
> VCS3 , and
> sine wave generators etc ........

I don't suppose anyone in the UK taped/tivo'd this program ?
I just caught the last 15 minutes of it having been dragged out the
g/f's mothers for dinner.
:-(

Colin f



From tania.gallagher at pandora.be  Mon Oct 20 00:59:31 2003
From: tania.gallagher at pandora.be (tania gallagher)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:59:31 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of sound on BBC4 digital tv in UK
In-Reply-To: <000001c3968f$126d5270$0101a8c0@ZEN>
Message-ID: <BBB8E3F2.FBF%tania.gallagher@pandora.be>

Same here, no bbc 4 in Belgium unfortunately,so i someone has a copy, i?ll
happily pay for tape, postage ,whatever......please let me know!

bart d

>> just thought you might be interested to know that on Sunday at 9pm on
>> BBC4 the Digital Tv channel in the uk there is a program called
>> Alchemists of sound .
>> the trailer that I saw had shots of the radiophonic workshop,
>> VCS3 , and
>> sine wave generators etc ........
> 
> I don't suppose anyone in the UK taped/tivo'd this program ?
> I just caught the last 15 minutes of it having been dragged out the
> g/f's mothers for dinner.
> :-(
> 
> Colin f
> 
> 
> 
> 



From elmacaco at nyc.rr.com  Mon Oct 20 01:17:01 2003
From: elmacaco at nyc.rr.com (elmacaco)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:17:01 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
References: <20031019215813.3012.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010001c39697$1a6d3aa0$e46f4142@nyc.rr.com>

I would thing that as long as you are going through the trouble, it would be
a better modular if you did it with more than one sid chip.  3 or 4 in one
box would make more sense for a modular system.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Ekdahl" <_nial_ at yahoo.com>
To: "John L Marshall" <john.l.marshall at gte.net>
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Sid Modular


> 1. The SID sound is perfect for the semi-lofi synthpop
> me and my friend is doing.
> 2. Its cheap, i've got a really tight economy and i've
> allready got almost all the parts needed.
> 3. It will be a pretty quick project i imagine.
> 4. I know digital electronics much better then analog
> so by first making a digital unit that later can be
> interfaced with analog, i have a good learning ground.
>
> /Karl
>
>  --- John L Marshall <john.l.marshall at gte.net> skrev:
> > Karl,
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > Take care,
> > John
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > www.sound-photo.com
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Karl Ekdahl" <_nial_ at yahoo.com>
> > To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 7:54 PM
> > Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
> >
> >
> > > Hello everyone, i'm going to build a SID modular
> > (or
> > > to-be-modular) and since i'm a newbie i'd love to
> > get
> > > some comments from you before i start, in case
> > i've
> > > done some bad thinking....
> > >
> > > Here's what i've been thinking so far:
> > >
> >
> http://medlem.spray.se/cocospalme/xqzp/sidmodular.html
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > /Karl
> > >
> > > H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p?
> > Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
> > http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
> >
>
>
> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 9/11/03


From synth1 at airmail.net  Mon Oct 20 01:48:15 2003
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:48:15 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Sunday night demo time
Message-ID: <001501c3969b$7df1c600$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>

First demos of the MOTM-480 CS-80 style VCF.

http://www.synthtech.com/demo/darkside_motm.mp3

This is all MOTM, with all sounds made with the '480 filter. It's actually several snippets
spliced together, some on Left and others on Right. The '480 is really 2 filters, so in some
patches the BP Out is on 1 side while the LP Out is panned to the other. No external processing
used.

Does a pretty good VCS3 sound :)

Paul S.




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 20 03:09:22 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:09:22 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
Message-ID: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net>

Hiya all...

I'm planning a vactrol based phaser module (yeah, I know...
how original :^)

I have a couple of ideas for controling the Vactrols.. like to have
any feedback. Maybe you've been there, done that...

1)  Control all the Vactrols with a series current (possibly including
the
LEDs in an opamp feedback.

pro: its easy
con: it probably does not cause the interesting part of the sweep to
occur
over a wide range

2) Control the Vactrols by running them all in series, with one
Photocell fed
back into the control circuit.  This is an adaptation of the National
Semiconductor
"Analog Multiplier" found in AN-20.  However, this version will not have
one LED
illuminating multiple photocells.

pro: (subject to matching) the photocell resistance can be accurately
specified
con: its more complex

Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen ???

H^) harry


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 20 03:17:32 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:17:32 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for a Vactrol ???
Message-ID: <3F9337AB.DD42C041@prodigy.net>

Anyone have a good idea for making a spice model
of a Vactrol ???

I'm thinking of calling the LED a current controlled source (of voltage
or
current) but I can't figure out how to make the output look like a
variable
resistance.

Right now I don't care about approximating the actual resistance curve
vs
input current... just want to make it work :^)

H^) harry


From eq927 at freenet.carleton.ca  Mon Oct 20 04:50:35 2003
From: eq927 at freenet.carleton.ca (eq927 at freenet.carleton.ca)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:50:35 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
References: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3F934D7B.41CC@ncf.ca>

Harry,
The Roland PH-830 phaser might contain some useful ideas - board photos 
show each dual Vactrol is associated with a 2SA798 dual PNP - perhaps a 
master-slave  servo arrangement (taking advantage of matching  in the 
two internal LDR's...) is used to force the slave LDR to exhibit a V/oct 
resistance change in response to CV. This way you would get the best of 
both worlds - excellent S/N plus a (hopefully accurate) V/oct response. 
or you could just get a used PH-830...
Regards, Mike


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Mon Oct 20 05:49:09 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:49:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Sunday night demo time
References: <001501c3969b$7df1c600$0201a8c0@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <009501c396bd$20c0d6c0$93a93841@default>

Oooooh - *nice*!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1 at airmail.net>
To: "analog heaven" <analogue at hyperreal.org>; "synthDIY"
<synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 4:48 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Sunday night demo time


> First demos of the MOTM-480 CS-80 style VCF.
>
> http://www.synthtech.com/demo/darkside_motm.mp3
>
> This is all MOTM, with all sounds made with the '480 filter. It's actually
several snippets
> spliced together, some on Left and others on Right. The '480 is really 2
filters, so in some
> patches the BP Out is on 1 side while the LP Out is panned to the other.
No external processing
> used.
>
> Does a pretty good VCS3 sound :)
>
> Paul S.
>
>
>
>


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Mon Oct 20 06:02:50 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:02:50 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
References: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <009e01c396bf$0f542ac0$93a93841@default>

Hi Harry,
I'm using a couple of 2N3904's configured pretty much like Rene Schmitz's
expo control for his VCO 4069

http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/

I've just got the anode of the 'top' Vactrol LED tied to +15V and the
cathode of the last Vactrol LED connected to the collector of T2.  I've got
10 of them in series (VTL5C2's for economic reasons -If I had deep pockets,
there'd probably be 5 VTL5C3/2's instead ;->), and I have more than enough
sweep range.  Much more than enough - I still have to go back and tame it
down a bit.

I'm using 2N7 caps, BTW, which seem to fit the 5C2's quite well.  I arrived
at 10 stages for two reasons - ran out of room on the s*lder*ss br**dboard,
and I think 10 LED's is about the max for the expo circuit (well, never
tried going beyond that anyway).  I plan some day to use at least a couple
of expo sinks and see if I can approach anything like the 'Tube' phaser (20
stages).  I get carried away sometimes.....

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 6:09 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted


> Hiya all...
>
> I'm planning a vactrol based phaser module (yeah, I know...
> how original :^)
>
> I have a couple of ideas for controling the Vactrols.. like to have
> any feedback. Maybe you've been there, done that...
>
> 1)  Control all the Vactrols with a series current (possibly including
> the
> LEDs in an opamp feedback.
>
> pro: its easy
> con: it probably does not cause the interesting part of the sweep to
> occur
> over a wide range
>
> 2) Control the Vactrols by running them all in series, with one
> Photocell fed
> back into the control circuit.  This is an adaptation of the National
> Semiconductor
> "Analog Multiplier" found in AN-20.  However, this version will not have
> one LED
> illuminating multiple photocells.
>
> pro: (subject to matching) the photocell resistance can be accurately
> specified
> con: its more complex
>
> Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen ???
>
> H^) harry
>
>


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Mon Oct 20 09:37:34 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:37:34 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F0A@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Well, an EPROM (and also FLASH) works by capturing electrons in an isolated
area, usually some MOS gate, the isolator is in this case SiO2 or Nitride.

Data retention is a big problem if you develop such a memory.
There is always some probability that electrons will hopp
over the barrier, and this will get worse if the temperature
is elevated. Also defects in the isolating barrier can lead
to "bleeding" of the charge.

Silicon processing has much advanced in the last 20 years,
so the memorie quality in the average got better and better.

For critical applications we do retention test (elevated temperature
to speed up the aging). We do this because still there is a number of
FLASH chips that will not keep the promised life time of 100000
hours. Perhaps 1 out of 1000 will come up.
After all extensive electrical testing has been done.

In the past it seems that the quality of such memories was
not that good. Depends also on the supplier and the testing
philosophy. Testing costs money.

So the quality depends on a lot of things, today such failure
is certainly seldom, but in the past I am not so sure.

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of 
> WeAreAs1 at aol.com
> Sent: Freitag, 17. Oktober 2003 21:31
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 10/17/03 8:37:41 AM, gilwein at walla.co.il writes:
> 
> << Can EPROM programming go defected if you power a synth up 
> without the back 
> battery in the circuit ? >>
> 
> No.  EPROM's can indeed go bad, but not because of a missing 
> or dead backup 
> battery.  BTW, EPROM failure is VERY rare.  Look elsewhere 
> for the problem 
> first.
> 
> Michael Bacich
> 


From colin at colinfraser.com  Mon Oct 20 11:03:41 2003
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:03:41 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound
Message-ID: <20031020090339.35AFC2461C7@smithers.nildram.co.uk>

The documentary about the Radiophonic Workshop will be repeated !
I'll be sure to tape it next time... In fact it's probably about time I got
a TV capture card in the PC, and tried writing it off to DVD.

ALCHEMISTS OF SOUND
Sunday 19 October 2003 9pm-10pm; rpt 1.10am-2.10am; Tuesday 21 October
8.30pm-9.30pm; Wednesday 22 October 11pm-midnight

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/music/features/alchemists.shtml

Colin f



________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2


From pev at sketchymonkey.com  Mon Oct 20 11:33:38 2003
From: pev at sketchymonkey.com (Dave Peverley)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:33:38 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound
References: <20031020090339.35AFC2461C7@smithers.nildram.co.uk>
Message-ID: <01e701c396ed$3e6221e0$f05c96c0@HOGSHEADW2K>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colin f" <colin at colinfraser.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>


> The documentary about the Radiophonic Workshop will be repeated !
> I'll be sure to tape it next time... In fact it's probably about time I got
> a TV capture card in the PC, and tried writing it off to DVD.
Ah, I managed to catch some of this last night and enjoyed what I saw.
However what I'd love to know if someone can explain the 'in joke' is
who the **** was the bald chap lurking behind *every* interviewee not
saying a word. Kind of strange...!

~Pev


From hughes_david_j at btopenworld.com  Mon Oct 20 11:37:50 2003
From: hughes_david_j at btopenworld.com (David Hughes)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:37:50 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound
References: <20031020090339.35AFC2461C7@smithers.nildram.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3F93ACEF.5D93EE4D@btopenworld.com>

Hello,

Colin f wrote:
> 
> The documentary about the Radiophonic Workshop will be repeated !
> I'll be sure to tape it next time... In fact it's probably about time I got
> a TV capture card in the PC, and tried writing it off to DVD.
> 
> ALCHEMISTS OF SOUND
> Sunday 19 October 2003 9pm-10pm; rpt 1.10am-2.10am; Tuesday 21 October
> 8.30pm-9.30pm; Wednesday 22 October 11pm-midnight

Thanks for the info.

It was a good programme... but who was the bearded guy in shot all the time and
what was the significance of the clock?

Any ideas?

Eegards
    David
-- 
Infection Music Limited.                     http://www.infectionmusic.co.uk

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From modular at go2.pl  Mon Oct 20 11:46:02 2003
From: modular at go2.pl (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Roman?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:46:02 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Re:=20[sdiy]=203=20layer=20PCB=20=3F?=
Message-ID: <20031020084603.84FA08AA82@rekin4.o2.pl>

3 probably not, but 4 - maybe.
I've seen 4 layer PCBs in 1987 in old computer equipment that has ended its life, I suspect it was maybe 5-7 years old already then, so yes, it's possible that they used multilayer PCBs in 83. OTOH I haven't seen it done in synths. I'm not even sure if early digital synths used 4-layer PCB and it was almost '90s.

Roman

---- Wiadomo?? Oryginalna ----
Od: gilwein at walla.co.il
Do: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Data: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:48:09 +0200
Temat: [sdiy] 3 layer PCB ?


Is there a chance that the problematic Kawai SX-210 I have uses a 3 layer PCB ? it's from '83.

Thanks.


From nej22 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Mon Oct 20 11:52:36 2003
From: nej22 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:52:36 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F0A@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F0A@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0310201047570.23704@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>

Hi,

> So the quality depends on a lot of things, today such failure
> is certainly seldom, but in the past I am not so sure.

Excellent points.  About the first thing I do with any old synth with
EPROMs in it is to carefully remove them and copy them.  Everything else
about the synth can be recreated in harware, but if/when the EPROMs go
dead, that's it.

Sure, read specs of today's EPROMs and they will talk about 20+ year
retention time, but go back to,say, mid-80s and things look rather
different.  Heck, mid-80's _IS_ 20 years ago!!!

It is possible that even re-burning them with the exact-same binary file
could rejuvenate an old EPROM that has got a little forgetful in its old
age.

Cheers,
Neil

-- Neil Johnson :: Computer Laboratory :: University of Cambridge ::
http://www.njohnson.co.uk          http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~nej22
----  IEE Cambridge Branch: http://www.iee-cambridge.org.uk  ----


From jhaible at debitel.net  Mon Oct 20 12:02:22 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 20 Oct 2003 12:02:22 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for a Vactrol ???
In-Reply-To: <3F9337AB.DD42C041@prodigy.net>
References: <3F9337AB.DD42C041@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <1066644141.3f93b2adcf2d9@www.debitel.net>


> Anyone have a good idea for making a spice model
> of a Vactrol ???


Sure. I'm working on this.


> I'm thinking of calling the LED a current controlled source (of voltage
> or
> current) but I can't figure out how to make the output look like a
> variable
> resistance.


Here's how I do it in PSpice (other Spice Simulators will probably
have similar building blocks, but not the same ones):

ABM3/I Model (that's an Analogue Behavioural Model with 3 Voltage
inputs and one floating current source output.
Just feed back the two current source nodes to two of the voltage
inputs. The 3rd input is used to control the resistance.
In order to avoid division, I make the 3rd input a _conductance_
input rather than a resistance input.
You can just write the equation into the model:
I = ( V1 - V2 ) * V3 , where V3 is the G value.
That's all you need for a static linear model.
Now run the G values thru a lookup table (also in PSpice), and
you have the nonlinearity. Easy.

What I have _not_ done yet, is the dynamic behaviour. Not
too difficult,either: Model a VC Lag with different time constants
for rising and falling values, and control them in real time with the
momentary G value.

I don't know if I will do this dynamic stuff, though. The static
nonlinear model is quite useful as it is.


JH.




> 
> Right now I don't care about approximating the actual resistance curve
> vs
> input current... just want to make it work :^)
> 
> H^) harry
> 
> 
> 




-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From colin at colinfraser.com  Mon Oct 20 12:03:29 2003
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:03:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
Message-ID: <20031020100326.8D5CA232318@smithers.nildram.co.uk>

> It is possible that even re-burning them with the exact-same binary file
> could rejuvenate an old EPROM that has got a little forgetful in its old
> age.

Personally, I prefer to replace older non-CMOS EPROMs with a CMOS type where
possible. In some cases, you can feel the drop in temperature at the PSU
heat sink. Some of those old EPROMs can draw 150mA in normal operation !

Colin f



________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2


From jhaible at debitel.net  Mon Oct 20 12:26:21 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 20 Oct 2003 12:26:21 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
In-Reply-To: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net>
References: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <1066645581.3f93b84d1dd25@www.debitel.net>

Depends on what you want to do.
If you want accurate V/Oct tracking, the feedback method
might not be good enough. OTOH, if approximate tracking
is all you need, why not just use the Vactrol LEDs 
as en expo converter? Connect them all in series, and
drive them with a _voltage_, not a current. 
Don't forget a current limiting resistor, and don't 
forget to include that resistor into the feedback
loop of your driving opamp (or you'll be bak to 
current control).

JH.


> Hiya all...
> 
> I'm planning a vactrol based phaser module (yeah, I know...
> how original :^)
> 
> I have a couple of ideas for controling the Vactrols.. like to have
> any feedback. Maybe you've been there, done that...
> 
> 1)  Control all the Vactrols with a series current (possibly including
> the
> LEDs in an opamp feedback.
> 
> pro: its easy
> con: it probably does not cause the interesting part of the sweep to
> occur
> over a wide range
> 
> 2) Control the Vactrols by running them all in series, with one
> Photocell fed
> back into the control circuit.  This is an adaptation of the National
> Semiconductor
> "Analog Multiplier" found in AN-20.  However, this version will not have
> one LED
> illuminating multiple photocells.
> 
> pro: (subject to matching) the photocell resistance can be accurately
> specified
> con: its more complex
> 
> Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen ???
> 
> H^) harry
> 
> 
> 




-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From nej22 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Mon Oct 20 13:56:13 2003
From: nej22 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:56:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
In-Reply-To: <20031020100326.8D5CA232318@smithers.nildram.co.uk>
References: <20031020100326.8D5CA232318@smithers.nildram.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0310201254220.23704@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>

Colin,

> Personally, I prefer to replace older non-CMOS EPROMs with a CMOS type where
> possible. In some cases, you can feel the drop in temperature at the PSU
> heat sink. Some of those old EPROMs can draw 150mA in normal operation !

But... but... but then it wouldn't sound as "warm" then, would it ?!!!

Humour aside, some of the older devices there just aren't CMOS
equivalents, so its either daughter-board time, or dig out an old
programmer are re-zap them.

Neil

--
Neil Johnson :: Computer Laboratory :: University of Cambridge ::
http://www.njohnson.co.uk          http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~nej22
----  IEE Cambridge Branch: http://www.iee-cambridge.org.uk  ----


From andy at techman.synth.net  Mon Oct 20 14:51:06 2003
From: andy at techman.synth.net (Andy Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:51:06 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound
In-Reply-To: <3F93ACEF.5D93EE4D@btopenworld.com>
Message-ID: <3F93E84A.15686.10669CB@localhost>

Hi David,

On 20 Oct 2003 at 10:37, David Hughes wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> It was a good programme... but who was the bearded guy in shot 
all the time and
> what was the significance of the clock?

No idea who the guy was, but the clock was stuck at 2 minutes to 8. 
i.e. 19:58, the year the Workshop was founded:->)

I had the great pleasure of working at the Maida Vale Studios when 
worked at the BBC 20 years ago as a maintenance engineer. We 
used to have breakfast with the Radiophonic composers and I 
remember Dick Mills as being an especially really nice guy.

All the best

Andy
---

Andy Wilson
http://www.techman.synth.net
andy at techman.synth.net


From karldalen at yahoo.se  Mon Oct 20 15:01:11 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:01:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
In-Reply-To: <20031019215813.3012.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031020130111.37516.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Karl!

The Sid chip has its shared deal of bad things:

1: Its noisy.

2: Some of the chips dont close the out DAC to zero
so it will "whine" in the background, youl need a DAC
or VCA placed at the output of sid.(i suggest a SPI
controlled 8 bit DAC wich is enough.)

3: The envelope times are quite coarse!

4:Forgett about getting clean sync at high osc frequencies!

5: In all projects, the "time needed" will always extend
to the unexpected. 

6: Otherwise, check out Torsten Klose's SID design,
or the poly SID design. Wich both are a good start points.

Reg (form another Karl!)
KD  

--- Karl Ekdahl <_nial_ at yahoo.com> skrev: > 1. The SID sound is perfect
for the semi-lofi synthpop
> me and my friend is doing.
> 2. Its cheap, i've got a really tight economy and i've
> allready got almost all the parts needed.
> 3. It will be a pretty quick project i imagine.
> 4. I know digital electronics much better then analog
> so by first making a digital unit that later can be
> interfaced with analog, i have a good learning ground.
> 
> /Karl
> 
>  --- John L Marshall <john.l.marshall at gte.net> skrev:
> > Karl,
> > 
> > Why?
> > 
> > Take care,
> > John
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > www.sound-photo.com
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Karl Ekdahl" <_nial_ at yahoo.com>
> > To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 7:54 PM
> > Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
> > 
> > 
> > > Hello everyone, i'm going to build a SID modular
> > (or
> > > to-be-modular) and since i'm a newbie i'd love to
> > get
> > > some comments from you before i start, in case
> > i've
> > > done some bad thinking....
> > >
> > > Here's what i've been thinking so far:
> > >
> >
> http://medlem.spray.se/cocospalme/xqzp/sidmodular.html
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > /Karl
> > >
> > > H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p?
> > Yahoo! Resor p? adressen
> > http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
> >  
> 
> 
> H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p?
> adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html 

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Mon Oct 20 15:31:13 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:31:13 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCMEDPCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

Ray,
I would like to ask you about adapting your single bus design to 72 keys, or
49 keys. Would the current source have different values based on the total
ladder resistance? Sounds like simple Ohms law, but I am not sure.

I am building mine with magnetic switches. I saw this design at the Allen
organ store. It is easy to make two or even three busses that way. Meder
Electronics makes the reed switches. I was given some samples to try out.


http://www.meder.com/


I would also think that using two switches at different points in the
mechanical arc would allow one to develop an inverted ramp output to affect
a velocity type CV.



MB

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Ray Wilson
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 7:59 PM
To: harrybissell; Thomas Holley
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


Hi Guys

Just a note on this. I feed the current from the top end of the keyboard and
I still get low note priority because when more than one key is pressed you
are essentially bypassing all of the intervening resistors and since the
current is constant (in the design I use) you get the voltage that is
dropped across the low side of the resistor ladder.

Ray



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:03 PM
To: Thomas Holley
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)

H^) harry

Thomas Holley wrote:

> Thanks Harry,
>  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source is to
> one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
> ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little spring
> contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
> grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for the
> controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the current
> source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this arrangement I
> think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to give
> the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right or
do
> I have it turned around?
>
> Thomas
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>
> > Hi Thomas
> >
> > Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
> > voltages...
> > so the current source should go on the highest note side...
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > Thomas Holley wrote:
> >
> > >     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> > > resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
> > > the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> > > soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when
> > > it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
> > > current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help Thomas
> >
> >




____________________________________________________________
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From ethan at monsoonmicro.com  Mon Oct 20 15:39:49 2003
From: ethan at monsoonmicro.com (ethan tripp)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:39:49 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
In-Reply-To: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEEEDCEAA.rayw@csd.net>
Message-ID: <E066E244-0302-11D8-B895-0050E499F749@monsoonmicro.com>

any way i could get ahold of the plans for that?

-et-

On Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 07:58  PM, Ray Wilson wrote:

> Hi Guys
>
> Just a note on this. I feed the current from the top end of the 
> keyboard and
> I still get low note priority because when more than one key is 
> pressed you
> are essentially bypassing all of the intervening resistors and since 
> the
> current is constant (in the design I use) you get the voltage that is
> dropped across the low side of the resistor ladder.
>
> Ray
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:03 PM
> To: Thomas Holley
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>
>
> Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
> also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)
>
> H^) harry
>
> Thomas Holley wrote:
>
>> Thanks Harry,
>>  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source 
>> is to
>> one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
>> ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little 
>> spring
>> contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
>> grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for 
>> the
>> controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the 
>> current
>> source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this 
>> arrangement I
>> think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to 
>> give
>> the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right 
>> or
> do
>> I have it turned around?
>>
>> Thomas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
>> To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
>> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>>
>>> Hi Thomas
>>>
>>> Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
>>> voltages...
>>> so the current source should go on the highest note side...
>>>
>>> H^) harry
>>>
>>> Thomas Holley wrote:
>>>
>>>>     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
>>>> resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
>>>> the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
>>>> soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder 
>>>> when
>>>> it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
>>>> current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help 
>>>> Thomas
>>>
>>>
>
>
>


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Mon Oct 20 16:18:45 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:18:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
So far I only could find some theoretical paper or commercials.

m.c.


From david.k.cornutt at boeing.com  Mon Oct 20 16:26:17 2003
From: david.k.cornutt at boeing.com (Cornutt, David K)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:26:17 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Message-ID: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DB1@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>

From: Czech Martin [mailto:Martin.Czech at micronas.com]
> Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?

Bleagh.  Isn't class D one of the circuits that they use
for RF amps, that only amplify part of the waveform?
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using one as
an audio amp.


From colin at colinfraser.com  Mon Oct 20 16:37:09 2003
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:37:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound
Message-ID: <20031020143705.01C5B244329@smithers.nildram.co.uk>

I bought a DVB TV capture card for my PC at lunch, so I should have this
program on DVD in a day or so.
:-)

Colin f



________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2


From mclilith at charter.net  Mon Oct 20 16:37:24 2003
From: mclilith at charter.net (Glen)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:37:24 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DB1@xch-se-01.se.nos.
 boeing.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20031020103025.025a3b60@mail.charter.net>

At 10:26 AM 10/20/03 , Cornutt, David K wrote:

>Bleagh.  Isn't class D one of the circuits that they use
>for RF amps, that only amplify part of the waveform?
>I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using one as
>an audio amp.

The "D" is for "Digital" in this case. 

I saw a very old article once about building a class D amp with 555 timers
and some support circuitry. I believe it used PWM of a high frequency
square wave, filtered the result, and then sent it to a speaker. It was
supposed to be pretty power-efficient, and suitable for battery power. Of
course, this particular circuit wasn't meant to be Hi-Fi, but I have heard
of other class D audio amps that were supposed to give good quality. 

Come to think of it, a 1-bit DAC is pretty much the same idea, albeit at a
lower power level, if I'm not mistaken. I would certainly consider that a
usable level of audio fidelity.

later,
Glen Berry


From Mark.Smith at pace.co.uk  Mon Oct 20 16:38:14 2003
From: Mark.Smith at pace.co.uk (Mark Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:38:14 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Message-ID: <44632C76B97BD211AF6B00805FADCAB21278665E@exchange.saltaire.pace.co.uk>

> From: Czech Martin [mailto:Martin.Czech at micronas.com]
> > Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
> 
> Bleagh.  Isn't class D one of the circuits that they use
> for RF amps, that only amplify part of the waveform?
> I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using one as an audio amp.
> 
> 
There are lots of people using class D for big power amps.

check out

http://www.futurlec.com/News/National/ClassDAmp.html

this is just one app.

they are now being used for headphone amps in phones and PDA's.  NJR do them I think.


mark


From jmahoney at gate.net  Mon Oct 20 16:38:45 2003
From: jmahoney at gate.net (john mahoney)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:38:45 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
References: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DB1@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c39717$ddb38e80$6400a8c0@BABYUTEST>

Class D uses switching for high efficiency. I think it does not use much
power when it is idling. I seems to recall that they make good subwoofer
amps.

Here's a "coming soon!" class D amp:
    http://www.bkelec.com/Professional/Amplifiers/ClassD/ClassD.htm
--
john


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cornutt, David K" <david.k.cornutt at boeing.com>
To: "Sdiy (E-mail)" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp


> From: Czech Martin [mailto:Martin.Czech at micronas.com]
> > Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
>
> Bleagh.  Isn't class D one of the circuits that they use
> for RF amps, that only amplify part of the waveform?
> I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using one as
> an audio amp.
>


From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Oct 20 16:41:51 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:41:51 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DB1@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>
References: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DB1@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <20031020.164151.79069410.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Cornutt, David K" <david.k.cornutt at boeing.com>
Subject: RE: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:26:17 -0500

> From: Czech Martin [mailto:Martin.Czech at micronas.com]
> > Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
> 
> Bleagh.  Isn't class D one of the circuits that they use
> for RF amps, that only amplify part of the waveform?
> I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using one as
> an audio amp.

That's class C mate!

You don't want to know what class D is!

Cheers,
Magnus


From carpet8 at mac.com  Mon Oct 20 16:48:07 2003
From: carpet8 at mac.com (Toby)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 07:48:07 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DB1@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <BBB943B7.1239E%carpet8@mac.com>

david.k.cornutt at boeing.com wrote:

> From: Czech Martin [mailto:Martin.Czech at micronas.com]
>> Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
> 
> Bleagh.  Isn't class D one of the circuits that they use
> for RF amps, that only amplify part of the waveform?
> I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using one as
> an audio amp.
> 
Class C is definitely for R/HF.  I wouldn't use anything but A AB and B for
audio.


t
-- 
Like and dislike are cheap.


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Mon Oct 20 16:52:09 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:52:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55F@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Yes, it is basically amplifiers going to DAC.
For subwoofer service the distortions can be quite low,
lower than 1%, down to 0.1%.
And with good efficiency.

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Glen
> Sent: Montag, 20. Oktober 2003 16:37
> To: Cornutt, David K; Sdiy (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
> 
> 
> At 10:26 AM 10/20/03 , Cornutt, David K wrote:
> 
> >Bleagh.  Isn't class D one of the circuits that they use
> >for RF amps, that only amplify part of the waveform?
> >I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using one as
> >an audio amp.
> 
> The "D" is for "Digital" in this case. 
> 
> I saw a very old article once about building a class D amp 
> with 555 timers
> and some support circuitry. I believe it used PWM of a high frequency
> square wave, filtered the result, and then sent it to a 
> speaker. It was
> supposed to be pretty power-efficient, and suitable for 
> battery power. Of
> course, this particular circuit wasn't meant to be Hi-Fi, but 
> I have heard
> of other class D audio amps that were supposed to give good quality. 
> 
> Come to think of it, a 1-bit DAC is pretty much the same 
> idea, albeit at a
> lower power level, if I'm not mistaken. I would certainly 
> consider that a
> usable level of audio fidelity.
> 
> later,
> Glen Berry
> 
> 


From MAMETZGER at partners.org  Mon Oct 20 17:08:30 2003
From: MAMETZGER at partners.org (Metzger, Michael A)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:08:30 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Message-ID: <78C21185A8FDD611B4E300508B093DE10580B19E@phsexch4.partners.org>

Martin,
A year or so ago people over at audioasylum.com were talking about how good
their class D hi-fi amps sounded. Lemme see......OK, I just ran a search and
came up with this.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=195315&highlight=Tripath&
r=&session=

Most postings referred to evaluation boards bought from Tripath
http://www.tripath.com/   
What made me remember this was that the tube hi-fi guys were surprised that
digital amps could sound so good.

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Czech Martin
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:19 AM
To: Sdiy (E-mail)
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp


Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
So far I only could find some theoretical paper or commercials.

m.c.


From bahi0387 at terra.com.br  Mon Oct 20 17:23:09 2003
From: bahi0387 at terra.com.br (Edu Silva)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:23:09 -0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <3F93FDDD.E42ABE0D@terra.com.br>

> Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?



http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/

See the "Solid State amps" forum, people post some useful links there.

cheers,
-- 
Edu Silva
ES2 Audio
Salvador-BA


From aon.912230836 at aon.at  Mon Oct 20 18:01:10 2003
From: aon.912230836 at aon.at (Jaroslaw Ziembicki)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:01:10 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F0A@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com> <Pine.SOL.4.58.0310201047570.23704@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <002001c39723$7b43db40$ab052e3e@JAREK>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Johnson" <nej22 at hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: "Czech Martin" <Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
Cc: "synth-diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 11:52 AM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?



> Excellent points.  About the first thing I do with any old synth with
> EPROMs in it is to carefully remove them and copy them.  Everything else
> about the synth can be recreated in harware, but if/when the EPROMs go
> dead, that's it.


Don't you think we could create a kind of a "bank of HEX files" with EPROM
contents of available synthesizers?
It would be really a great help for someone who has experienced an EPROM
failure
in a synth.
I could provide 5-6 files.

Regards,
Jarek




From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 20 18:12:56 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:12:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <20031020.164151.79069410.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <20031020161256.82449.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se> wrote:

> You don't want to know what class D is!
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus

  I have a prototype class D amp... its good
for 875KW (short term peak)...  It switches at 1.2KHz
so its a little noisy but what the heck, its good
enough
for rock and roll...

(actually its a welding control :^)

Class D seems like an 'acceptable' idea for a laptop
computer where the sound is going to be lousy anyway
becaise of the massive 1" speakers...

In a tiny chip it might be quite workable, but scaled
up
to audio amp size, the parasitics are likely to make
the
project quite unworkable. I assume that for a project
to be good for "diy" it should work at least as well
as a commercial unit (or be made entirely from old
radios or something else from the salvage bin - in
that case a little reduction in performance may be
acceptable for novelty reasons)  :^P

H^) harry



From greg.montalbano at ucop.edu  Mon Oct 20 18:34:46 2003
From: greg.montalbano at ucop.edu (greg montalbano)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:34:46 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
In-Reply-To: <002001c39723$7b43db40$ab052e3e@JAREK>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F0A@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
 <Pine.SOL.4.58.0310201047570.23704@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031020093029.01ffaec0@popserv.ucop.edu>

This has been discussed onlist before;  no consensus was ever reached.

I would suggest your best bet would be to simply remain subscribed to the 
list;  my experience has been that there's ALWAYS someone else onlist who 
has the file you need (I've supplied several & received several -- it works 
out very well).

As for the actual programming of the ROMs, same thing applies -- there are 
those of us with EPROM programmers scattered all over the place who are 
willing to program the blanks for just about any list member;  and, so far, 
a great many of the obsolete EPROMs are still available (& inexpensive) 
from places like JAMECO.

~G


At 06:01 PM 10/20/03 +0200, you wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Neil Johnson" <nej22 at hermes.cam.ac.uk>
>To: "Czech Martin" <Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
>Cc: "synth-diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 11:52 AM
>Subject: RE: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
>
>
>
> > Excellent points.  About the first thing I do with any old synth with
> > EPROMs in it is to carefully remove them and copy them.  Everything else
> > about the synth can be recreated in harware, but if/when the EPROMs go
> > dead, that's it.
>
>
>Don't you think we could create a kind of a "bank of HEX files" with EPROM
>contents of available synthesizers?
>It would be really a great help for someone who has experienced an EPROM
>failure
>in a synth.
>I could provide 5-6 files.
>
>Regards,
>Jarek


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Mon Oct 20 18:38:32 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:38:32 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C561@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

No, it seems that by clever signal processing
you can get rid of a lot of artefacts,
thus delivering quite good sound at least for 
woofers (in the Nx 100W area).
When the needed frequencies get higher, the
distortion (or sideband) problems get worse.

This seems to need a lot of DSP computing.
I'm looking for the range 20Hz-100Hz, where
the problems are smaller and a PWM solution
of 1st or second order migh suffice.

I wonder if some of these devices are not
jamming transmitters ...
so officials will stop you from running them
because of EMI.

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry 
> Bissell Jr
> Sent: Montag, 20. Oktober 2003 18:13
> To: Magnus Danielson; david.k.cornutt at boeing.com
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
> 
> 
> 
> --- Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se> wrote:
> 
> > You don't want to know what class D is!
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> 
>   I have a prototype class D amp... its good
> for 875KW (short term peak)...  It switches at 1.2KHz
> so its a little noisy but what the heck, its good
> enough
> for rock and roll...
> 
> (actually its a welding control :^)
> 
> Class D seems like an 'acceptable' idea for a laptop
> computer where the sound is going to be lousy anyway
> becaise of the massive 1" speakers...
> 
> In a tiny chip it might be quite workable, but scaled
> up
> to audio amp size, the parasitics are likely to make
> the
> project quite unworkable. I assume that for a project
> to be good for "diy" it should work at least as well
> as a commercial unit (or be made entirely from old
> radios or something else from the salvage bin - in
> that case a little reduction in performance may be
> acceptable for novelty reasons)  :^P
> 
> H^) harry
> 
> 
> 


From alex at xatomic.ch  Mon Oct 20 18:57:28 2003
From: alex at xatomic.ch (Alex Stettler)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:57:28 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBKDLKOLIMDJGJHFBGOEBLDJAA.alex@xatomic.ch>

Hello,

I just built a sort of 3-channel class D amplifier. I use it to generate
3-phase / 450 Hz power
for my Alcatel Turbopump. It is based on a look-up-table (calculated in
MATLAB), clock-generator
and driver / MOSFET-power stage. The whole amplifier is very efficient. With
full output power
of 300 VA (cos(phi) is estimated to be about 0.7) the losses in the power
stage are only about 12 Watts.
Also the sinewave is very nice, watched on a scope. I didn't measure the THD
so far, but I'll do in the next
days. In my application the amplifier is even simpler, because you don't
need the output filter network.
The stator winding of the pump motor plays the role of the lowpass-filter.
(BTW: Most modern frequency converters for ac-motors are simpler forms of
class-D amplifiers)
As a future project I intend to build a audio class D ampfifier as you, too.
Because this type of amplifier is interesting
in two ways: You can get 800 Watts or more of audio power out of 1U / 19"
case (high power per volume) and because of the working principle and the
design of the different components involved with this type of amplifier
(Switching Mode Power Supply, PWM-Modulation, DSP-Processing,
Control-Circuits etc.)
But first I've two finish my SMPS (based on L5991) for my 3-phase
generator/amplifier.
With the experience I've made with this class of amplifiers, I'm very
optimistic to get a class D audio amp running with low THD and other good
technical specs. But in comparison to the amp I've built, the audio capable
version will need much more of design effort, because of the much bigger
bandwith and other differences. My generator/amp has only to cover a
frequency range of about 400 - 1200 Hz.

Regards,
Alex



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Czech Martin
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 4:19 PM
> To: Sdiy (E-mail)
> Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
>
>
> Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
> So far I only could find some theoretical paper or commercials.
>
> m.c.
>


From david.k.cornutt at boeing.com  Mon Oct 20 19:12:30 2003
From: david.k.cornutt at boeing.com (Cornutt, David K)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:12:30 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Message-ID: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DB3@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>

[quoting myself]?
> Bleagh.  Isn't class D one of the circuits that they use
> for RF amps, that only amplify part of the waveform?

Sorry folks, I had it confused with class C, which
is strictly an RF amp circuit.  Carry on.


From nej22 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Mon Oct 20 19:19:57 2003
From: nej22 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:19:57 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] EPROM has gone defected ?
In-Reply-To: <002001c39723$7b43db40$ab052e3e@JAREK>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F0A@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
 <Pine.SOL.4.58.0310201047570.23704@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>
 <002001c39723$7b43db40$ab052e3e@JAREK>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0310201818540.20313@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>

Hi,

Well, I put EPROM files on my website when I get them, although so far I
only have ones for the two in a Roland W-30.

I'd be happy to add any that you might care to share.

Neil

--
Neil Johnson :: Computer Laboratory :: University of Cambridge ::
http://www.njohnson.co.uk          http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~nej22
----  IEE Cambridge Branch: http://www.iee-cambridge.org.uk  ----


From buchty at cs.tum.edu  Mon Oct 20 20:13:42 2003
From: buchty at cs.tum.edu (Rainer Buchty)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:13:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
In-Reply-To: <20031020130111.37516.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031020130111.37516.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310202004200.31926@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>

> 3: The envelope times are quite coarse!

Since the oscillators are not reset by gate=1 (only the EG is), you can
apply any envelope by setting a=d=r=0 and repeatedly updating the sustain
register while flipping the gate bit. The sustain register, of course, has
only a resolution of 4 bits, but you may be able to extend that range by
switching between adjacent values (interpolating) playing tricks with a/r
settings.

At least fading out using the sustain register works nicely as e.g. the
title music of Wizball shows.

> 4:Forgett about getting clean sync at high osc frequencies!

If you want SID sound, you're looking for that dirt :)

Rainer


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Mon Oct 20 20:30:50 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:30:50 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
In-Reply-To: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net>
References: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3F9429DA.1090401@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Harry,


> I'm planning a vactrol based phaser module (yeah, I know...
> how original :^)

In my tube based phaser I've used three expo convertors of the ARP-Style
(PNP/NPN). Its a six stage design, and this allows me to offset two of
the vactrols with respect to the third one. By that I get a "notch
spreading" control (one expo receives the Spread-CV directly, the other
inverted. I found this to be easier than to experiment with different
caps, and the big plus is you can change the character with a front
panel control. (I didn't bother to bring out a CV, but that would be
straight forward.)

> 2) Control the Vactrols by running them all in series, with one
> Photocell fed
> back into the control circuit.  This is an adaptation of the National
> Semiconductor
> "Analog Multiplier" found in AN-20.  However, this version will not have
> one LED
> illuminating multiple photocells.
> 
> pro: (subject to matching) the photocell resistance can be accurately
> specified
> con: its more complex

con: you also loose the dynamic property of the vactrol.

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159





From peter at buzzclick-music.com  Mon Oct 20 20:58:41 2003
From: peter at buzzclick-music.com (Peter Grenader)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:58:41 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
In-Reply-To: <3F9429DA.1090401@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <BBB97E71.DFCB%peter@buzzclick-music.com>

A Panner.  Seems to me, with the inherent slow-motion release of the
vactrol, it's a perfect candidate for panner applications in that it would
more than likely smooth out the dreaded 3 dB drop in the center.

Sounds reasonable.

Another great vactrol application - little men.  With two leads coming out
the top (arms) and two coming out the bottom (yes, you've got it - legs),
you've got the makings of a one heck of a swell man.  Hell, his torso would
be somewhat shaped like Bob Moog's anyway.

You just need a head, and this is where your tantilum cap comes it. Any
value should do.  Little shoes from switch caps, a tie zip-tie belt and
bingo - a little companion to sit with you while you solder.

huh?

- P







 Ren? Schmitz wrote:

> Hi Harry,
> 
> 
>> I'm planning a vactrol based phaser module (yeah, I know...
>> how original :^)
> 
> In my tube based phaser I've used three expo convertors of the ARP-Style
> (PNP/NPN). Its a six stage design, and this allows me to offset two of
> the vactrols with respect to the third one. By that I get a "notch
> spreading" control (one expo receives the Spread-CV directly, the other
> inverted. I found this to be easier than to experiment with different
> caps, and the big plus is you can change the character with a front
> panel control. (I didn't bother to bring out a CV, but that would be
> straight forward.)
> 
>> 2) Control the Vactrols by running them all in series, with one
>> Photocell fed
>> back into the control circuit.  This is an adaptation of the National
>> Semiconductor
>> "Analog Multiplier" found in AN-20.  However, this version will not have
>> one LED
>> illuminating multiple photocells.
>> 
>> pro: (subject to matching) the photocell resistance can be accurately
>> specified
>> con: its more complex
> 
> con: you also loose the dynamic property of the vactrol.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ren?



From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 20 21:55:19 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (Harry Bissell Jr)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:55:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
In-Reply-To: <BBB97E71.DFCB%peter@buzzclick-music.com>
Message-ID: <20031020195519.93842.qmail@web80201.mail.yahoo.com>

I'll have what the gentleman on the floor
is having....    ;^P

H^) harry

--- Peter Grenader <peter at buzzclick-music.com> wrote:
> A Panner.  Seems to me, with the inherent
> slow-motion release of the
> vactrol, it's a perfect candidate for panner
> applications in that it would
> more than likely smooth out the dreaded 3 dB drop in
> the center.
> 
> Sounds reasonable.
> 
> Another great vactrol application - little men. 
> With two leads coming out
> the top (arms) and two coming out the bottom (yes,
> you've got it - legs),
> you've got the makings of a one heck of a swell man.
>  Hell, his torso would
> be somewhat shaped like Bob Moog's anyway.
> 
> You just need a head, and this is where your
> tantilum cap comes it. Any
> value should do.  Little shoes from switch caps, a
> tie zip-tie belt and
> bingo - a little companion to sit with you while you
> solder.
> 
> huh?
> 
> - P
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Ren? Schmitz wrote:
> 
> > Hi Harry,
> > 
> > 
> >> I'm planning a vactrol based phaser module (yeah,
> I know...
> >> how original :^)
> > 
> > In my tube based phaser I've used three expo
> convertors of the ARP-Style
> > (PNP/NPN). Its a six stage design, and this allows
> me to offset two of
> > the vactrols with respect to the third one. By
> that I get a "notch
> > spreading" control (one expo receives the
> Spread-CV directly, the other
> > inverted. I found this to be easier than to
> experiment with different
> > caps, and the big plus is you can change the
> character with a front
> > panel control. (I didn't bother to bring out a CV,
> but that would be
> > straight forward.)
> > 
> >> 2) Control the Vactrols by running them all in
> series, with one
> >> Photocell fed
> >> back into the control circuit.  This is an
> adaptation of the National
> >> Semiconductor
> >> "Analog Multiplier" found in AN-20.  However,
> this version will not have
> >> one LED
> >> illuminating multiple photocells.
> >> 
> >> pro: (subject to matching) the photocell
> resistance can be accurately
> >> specified
> >> con: its more complex
> > 
> > con: you also loose the dynamic property of the
> vactrol.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Ren?
> 
> 


From s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk  Mon Oct 20 23:50:09 2003
From: s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk (s.thomas)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:50:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Ziwzhi Ziwzhi oo-oo-oo ! (was Alchemists of Sound)
References: <20031020090339.35AFC2461C7@smithers.nildram.co.uk> <3F93ACEF.5D93EE4D@btopenworld.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c39754$29f49e10$eefa0250@tardis>

Hi all  ..pity I cant get BBC4..maybe someone who can could tape tonorrows or wednesdays broadcast of it ? I would certainly be interested in getting a copy  as I would imagine will others! Judging by the real audio clip of Delia Derbyshire's  famous piece  ' Ziwzhi Ziwzhi oo-oo-oo ' that they have on the BBC4 link page.. she was also featured in the programme? any interviews with her? I am not sure she gave that many..possibly  because of the politics of the RPWS at that time in which  all compostions were accredited to all members of the workshop even if they were actually created by a single person.

cheers
steve thomas


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Hughes" <hughes_david_j at btopenworld.com>
To: "Colin f" <colin at colinfraser.com>
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound


> Hello,
> 
> Colin f wrote:
> > 
> > The documentary about the Radiophonic Workshop will be repeated !
> > I'll be sure to tape it next time... In fact it's probably about time I got
> > a TV capture card in the PC, and tried writing it off to DVD.
> > 
> > ALCHEMISTS OF SOUND
> > Sunday 19 October 2003 9pm-10pm; rpt 1.10am-2.10am; Tuesday 21 October
> > 8.30pm-9.30pm; Wednesday 22 October 11pm-midnight
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> It was a good programme... but who was the bearded guy in shot all the time and
> what was the significance of the clock?
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Eegards
>     David
> -- 
> Infection Music Limited.                     http://www.infectionmusic.co.uk
> 
> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
> for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee you may not copy, 
> forward, disclose or otherwise use it, or any part of it, in any form 
> whatsoever. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the 
> sender and ensure that all copies of this e-mail and any files transmitted 
> with it are deleted. Any views or opinions represented in this e-mail are 
> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of 
> Infection Music. Although this e-mail and its attachments have been scanned 
> for the presence of computer viruses, Infection Music will not be liable for 
> any losses as a result of any viruses being passed on.
> 
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From john.l.marshall at gte.net  Tue Oct 21 01:11:45 2003
From: john.l.marshall at gte.net (John L Marshall)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:11:45 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C561@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <007001c3975f$88d2ceb0$6601a8c0@PURPLE>

Class D is commonly used in the modulator of AM broadcast transmitters. It
gets rid of the huge modulation transformer. A 10kW transmitter will require
about 6kW of audio.

Take care,
John
------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sound-photo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Czech Martin" <Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
To: "Harry Bissell Jr" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
Cc: "Sdiy (E-mail)" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp


> No, it seems that by clever signal processing
> you can get rid of a lot of artefacts,
> thus delivering quite good sound at least for
> woofers (in the Nx 100W area).
> When the needed frequencies get higher, the
> distortion (or sideband) problems get worse.
>
> This seems to need a lot of DSP computing.
> I'm looking for the range 20Hz-100Hz, where
> the problems are smaller and a PWM solution
> of 1st or second order migh suffice.
>
> I wonder if some of these devices are not
> jamming transmitters ...
> so officials will stop you from running them
> because of EMI.
>
> m.c.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Harry
> > Bissell Jr
> > Sent: Montag, 20. Oktober 2003 18:13
> > To: Magnus Danielson; david.k.cornutt at boeing.com
> > Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Magnus Danielson <cfmd at swipnet.se> wrote:
> >
> > > You don't want to know what class D is!
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Magnus
> >
> >   I have a prototype class D amp... its good
> > for 875KW (short term peak)...  It switches at 1.2KHz
> > so its a little noisy but what the heck, its good
> > enough
> > for rock and roll...
> >
> > (actually its a welding control :^)
> >
> > Class D seems like an 'acceptable' idea for a laptop
> > computer where the sound is going to be lousy anyway
> > becaise of the massive 1" speakers...
> >
> > In a tiny chip it might be quite workable, but scaled
> > up
> > to audio amp size, the parasitics are likely to make
> > the
> > project quite unworkable. I assume that for a project
> > to be good for "diy" it should work at least as well
> > as a commercial unit (or be made entirely from old
> > radios or something else from the salvage bin - in
> > that case a little reduction in performance may be
> > acceptable for novelty reasons)  :^P
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> >
> >
>


From gilwein at walla.co.il  Tue Oct 21 01:40:37 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:40:37 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Alpha Juno battery type
Message-ID: <200310202340.h9KNebZ11910@omail1.walla.co.il>

What's the battery type in the Roland Alpha Juno 1 ? is it a NiCD ?

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From rayw at csd.net  Tue Oct 21 01:53:27 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:53:27 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
In-Reply-To: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCMEDPCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANGEGBCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

You should be fine with more keys Mike. once you adjust the constant current
source it will always puts out 83.3 mA so that you get an 83.3 mV drop per
each resistor in the resistor ladder. With more keys it will actually be
driving less load (due to the higher resistance of the whole ladder).

I have heard of others doing this with magnetic reed switches with good
results. I'm going to check out the link you provided. I may try this route
since I have another piano style keyboard that came out of an organ. The
switches on the keys are terrible but the action is nice.

Cheers

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Boracci [mailto:mboracci at nfpcomputer.com]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 7:31 AM
To: Ray Wilson; harrybissell; Thomas Holley
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


Ray,
I would like to ask you about adapting your single bus design to 72 keys, or
49 keys. Would the current source have different values based on the total
ladder resistance? Sounds like simple Ohms law, but I am not sure.

I am building mine with magnetic switches. I saw this design at the Allen
organ store. It is easy to make two or even three busses that way. Meder
Electronics makes the reed switches. I was given some samples to try out.


http://www.meder.com/


I would also think that using two switches at different points in the
mechanical arc would allow one to develop an inverted ramp output to affect
a velocity type CV.



MB

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Ray Wilson
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 7:59 PM
To: harrybissell; Thomas Holley
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


Hi Guys

Just a note on this. I feed the current from the top end of the keyboard and
I still get low note priority because when more than one key is pressed you
are essentially bypassing all of the intervening resistors and since the
current is constant (in the design I use) you get the voltage that is
dropped across the low side of the resistor ladder.

Ray



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:03 PM
To: Thomas Holley
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)

H^) harry

Thomas Holley wrote:

> Thanks Harry,
>  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source is to
> one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
> ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little spring
> contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
> grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for the
> controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the current
> source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this arrangement I
> think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to give
> the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right or
do
> I have it turned around?
>
> Thomas
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>
> > Hi Thomas
> >
> > Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
> > voltages...
> > so the current source should go on the highest note side...
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > Thomas Holley wrote:
> >
> > >     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
> > > resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
> > > the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
> > > soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder when
> > > it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
> > > current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help Thomas
> >
> >




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From rayw at csd.net  Tue Oct 21 01:54:10 2003
From: rayw at csd.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:54:10 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
In-Reply-To: <E066E244-0302-11D8-B895-0050E499F749@monsoonmicro.com>
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANKEGBCEAA.rayw@csd.net>

Sure, its here:

http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/keybrdcontroller.html

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: ethan tripp [mailto:ethan at monsoonmicro.com]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 7:40 AM
To: Ray Wilson
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control


any way i could get ahold of the plans for that?

-et-

On Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 07:58  PM, Ray Wilson wrote:

> Hi Guys
>
> Just a note on this. I feed the current from the top end of the 
> keyboard and
> I still get low note priority because when more than one key is 
> pressed you
> are essentially bypassing all of the intervening resistors and since 
> the
> current is constant (in the design I use) you get the voltage that is
> dropped across the low side of the resistor ladder.
>
> Ray
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 3:03 PM
> To: Thomas Holley
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>
>
> Yes, you are right. By taking the output from the low side you will
> also get low note priority (which I for one, insist on :^)
>
> H^) harry
>
> Thomas Holley wrote:
>
>> Thanks Harry,
>>  I have the keyboard controller arranged so that the current source 
>> is to
>> one end (HI) of a resistor ladder and the other end (LO) referenced to
>> ground. The keyboard is from an old broken ensonique with little 
>> spring
>> contacts on each key. I have it so when the key is pressed the contact
>> grounds that point in the resistor ladder. The reference voltage for 
>> the
>> controller is taken from the top of the resistor ladder where the 
>> current
>> source connects (copied from an old ARP patent). With this 
>> arrangement I
>> think the current source should then go on the low (left) key side to 
>> give
>> the highest voltage reference to the high (right) keys. Is this right 
>> or
> do
>> I have it turned around?
>>
>> Thomas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
>> To: "Thomas Holley" <thomasholley at adelphia.net>
>> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Keyboard Control
>>
>>> Hi Thomas
>>>
>>> Higher pitches (to the right side of the keyboard) get higher
>>> voltages...
>>> so the current source should go on the highest note side...
>>>
>>> H^) harry
>>>
>>> Thomas Holley wrote:
>>>
>>>>     I have a rather fundamental question. In a keyboard controller
>>>> resistor ladder, does the high voltage side go to high pitch key or
>>>> the low pitch key. I have been tinkering with an old keyboard and
>>>> soldered up a 100 ohm resistor between each key for a nice ladder 
>>>> when
>>>> it finally dawned on me that I had not a clue which side to put the
>>>> current source on and which one to ground. Thanks for your help 
>>>> Thomas
>>>
>>>
>
>
>


From patchell at cox.net  Tue Oct 21 03:13:08 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:13:08 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] MPQ2907 Quad Transistor Info?
In-Reply-To: <001a01c3977e$9e07f160$7cd84bab@default>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031020180813.00b9c018@pop.west.cox.net>

The MPQ2n2907 might be useful...but, the transistors are not on the same 
substrate (they are individual die), and so you cannot guarantee any sort 
of matching at all....however...you would probably find that they are 
matched more than good enough.  Most likely, the die all came from the same 
wafer (but you cannot count on that), so, they are probably better matched 
than you would think.  Even when I purchase 2n3906's and set about to match 
them...I am amazed at how often a batch of 20 or so will all be within 
about 2 mV or so.  So, if they are cheap (like maybe 20 cents a dip, or in 
that range), give them a try.  Even though they are not on the same 
substrate, they are in the same package and will probably thermal track 
good enough.  However, they are not cheap (say $2 a dip)...I would say 
forget it...and look into transistor arrays from THAT corporation...

At 07:54 PM 10/20/2003 -0700, Scott Stites wrote:
>Hi list,
>
>I received my most recent Hosfelt catalog and ran across the quad PNP
>package MPQ2907N.  Since apparently the transistors are on the same
>substrate, could I assume they're reasonably matched?  I couldn't really
>find much information on them on the web.  Any info would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Scott

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From karldalen at yahoo.se  Tue Oct 21 04:08:53 2003
From: karldalen at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Karl=20Dalen?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:08:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Sid Modular
In-Reply-To: <20031020130111.37516.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031021020853.29994.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com>


> 6: Otherwise, check out Torsten Klose's SID design,
> or the poly SID design. Wich both are a good start points.

http://www.ucapps.de
Klose are on the diy list i think!

KD

H?strusk och gr? moln - k?p en resa till solen p? Yahoo! Resor p? adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


From gendreau at rochester.rr.com  Tue Oct 21 04:17:19 2003
From: gendreau at rochester.rr.com (Dan Gendreau)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:17:19 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] DX7 grounding?
In-Reply-To: <JFEHINLEPNPOGMABAOBDGEOLCLAA.gendreau@rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <JFEHINLEPNPOGMABAOBDMEAFCMAA.gendreau@rochester.rr.com>

Okay, pet peeve time.

I have owned an origial model Yamaha DX-7 for about 15 years now and 
one thing that has always bugged me about it is that it does not seem 
to be properly grounded.

It only has a 2 prong power cable and when I run my hand over the 
metal case I can feel what I can only describe as low voltage 60Hz AC 
on my finger tips. Now I have never actually gotten shocked by it, 
but it still bothers me.

Have any other DX7 owners replaced the power cord with a 3 prong one? 
Do I just tie the green wire to the case? I think I will put in an 
IEC jack as well, just to make transporting it easier.

-Dan G.


From gendreau at rochester.rr.com  Tue Oct 21 04:29:07 2003
From: gendreau at rochester.rr.com (Dan Gendreau)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:29:07 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] RE: DX7 grounding?
In-Reply-To: <JFEHINLEPNPOGMABAOBDMEAFCMAA.gendreau@rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <JFEHINLEPNPOGMABAOBDCEAGCMAA.gendreau@rochester.rr.com>

I guess I answered my own quenstion.
I just found the DX-7 schematic online and the Canadian version of the power
supply appears identical except that it includes a center ground pin tied to the
chasis.

Thanks anyway,
-Dan G.


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Oct 21 04:34:34 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:34:34 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
References: <NFBBKDLKOLIMDJGJHFBGOEBLDJAA.alex@xatomic.ch>
Message-ID: <3F949B39.FBD68955@prodigy.net>

Watch out when you try to run a 50 foot speaker cable... you might
find out that you have a lot of noise issues (in everything else) when your
filter chokes (speaker coils) are located so far away...

you might even induction heat metal objects in the cable path...

its very inportant in these apps to keep stray inductance (and capacitance
for that matter) low...

H^) harry

(now having a bad day with a motor drive switching at 8KHz on a 15'
cable... guess what happens later this week when the 50' cable arrives :^)

Alex Stettler wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I just built a sort of 3-channel class D amplifier. I use it to generate
> 3-phase / 450 Hz power
> for my Alcatel Turbopump. It is based on a look-up-table (calculated in
> MATLAB), clock-generator
> and driver / MOSFET-power stage. The whole amplifier is very efficient. With
> full output power
> of 300 VA (cos(phi) is estimated to be about 0.7) the losses in the power
> stage are only about 12 Watts.
> Also the sinewave is very nice, watched on a scope. I didn't measure the THD
> so far, but I'll do in the next
> days. In my application the amplifier is even simpler, because you don't
> need the output filter network.
> The stator winding of the pump motor plays the role of the lowpass-filter.
> (BTW: Most modern frequency converters for ac-motors are simpler forms of
> class-D amplifiers)
> As a future project I intend to build a audio class D ampfifier as you, too.
> Because this type of amplifier is interesting
> in two ways: You can get 800 Watts or more of audio power out of 1U / 19"
> case (high power per volume) and because of the working principle and the
> design of the different components involved with this type of amplifier
> (Switching Mode Power Supply, PWM-Modulation, DSP-Processing,
> Control-Circuits etc.)
> But first I've two finish my SMPS (based on L5991) for my 3-phase
> generator/amplifier.
> With the experience I've made with this class of amplifiers, I'm very
> optimistic to get a class D audio amp running with low THD and other good
> technical specs. But in comparison to the amp I've built, the audio capable
> version will need much more of design effort, because of the much bigger
> bandwith and other differences. My generator/amp has only to cover a
> frequency range of about 400 - 1200 Hz.
>
> Regards,
> Alex
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Czech Martin
> > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 4:19 PM
> > To: Sdiy (E-mail)
> > Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
> >
> >
> > Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
> > So far I only could find some theoretical paper or commercials.
> >
> > m.c.
> >


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Tue Oct 21 04:54:11 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:54:11 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] MPQ2907 Quad Transistor Info?
Message-ID: <001a01c3977e$9e07f160$7cd84bab@default>

Hi list,

I received my most recent Hosfelt catalog and ran across the quad PNP
package MPQ2907N.  Since apparently the transistors are on the same
substrate, could I assume they're reasonably matched?  I couldn't really
find much information on them on the web.  Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Scott


From kdowns at optusnet.com.au  Tue Oct 21 04:54:26 2003
From: kdowns at optusnet.com.au (Kevin Downs)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:54:26 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <001101c3977e$a4735080$0200a8c0@co3019798a>

Not quite DIY, but you could try these guys

http://www.lcaudio.com/index.html

Have a look at their ZAPpulse module - 200W @ 8ohms for a circuit the
size of a credit-card, and no heatsinks! A friend of mine has just build
one and it sounds pretty damn good....

regards,
Kevin


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Czech Martin
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 October 2003 12:19 AM
> To: Sdiy (E-mail)
> Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
> 
> 
> Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class 
> D? So far I only could find some theoretical paper or commercials.
> 
> m.c.
> 


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Tue Oct 21 06:02:43 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:02:43 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] MPQ2907 Quad Transistor Info?
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031020180813.00b9c018@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <002601c39789$45688fa0$7cd84bab@default>

Thanks, Jim!  It never occurred to me that they would actually not be on the
same substrate, but they sure look worth a try, and the thermal tracking
would be a plus.

They're certainly cheap enough (29 cents apiece at Hosfelt).

Cheers,
Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Patchell" <patchell at cox.net>
To: "Scott Stites" <scottnoanh at peoplepc.com>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] MPQ2907 Quad Transistor Info?


> The MPQ2n2907 might be useful...but, the transistors are not on the same
> substrate (they are individual die), and so you cannot guarantee any sort
> of matching at all....however...you would probably find that they are
> matched more than good enough.  Most likely, the die all came from the
same
> wafer (but you cannot count on that), so, they are probably better matched
> than you would think.  Even when I purchase 2n3906's and set about to
match
> them...I am amazed at how often a batch of 20 or so will all be within
> about 2 mV or so.  So, if they are cheap (like maybe 20 cents a dip, or in
> that range), give them a try.  Even though they are not on the same
> substrate, they are in the same package and will probably thermal track
> good enough.  However, they are not cheap (say $2 a dip)...I would say
> forget it...and look into transistor arrays from THAT corporation...
>
> At 07:54 PM 10/20/2003 -0700, Scott Stites wrote:
> >Hi list,
> >
> >I received my most recent Hosfelt catalog and ran across the quad PNP
> >package MPQ2907N.  Since apparently the transistors are on the same
> >substrate, could I assume they're reasonably matched?  I couldn't really
> >find much information on them on the web.  Any info would be appreciated.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Scott
>
>          -Jim
> ***************************************************
> I'm a man
> But I can change
> If I have to
> I guess.
>
> Man's Prayer
> Red Green
>
> ***************************************************
> http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
>
> http://members.cox.net/patchell
>
> ***************************************************
>
>
>


From patchell at cox.net  Tue Oct 21 06:57:16 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:57:16 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] MPQ2907 Quad Transistor Info?
In-Reply-To: <002601c39789$45688fa0$7cd84bab@default>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031020180813.00b9c018@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031020215538.00baae98@pop.west.cox.net>

29 cents would put it in the worthwhile category for me...I have been 
tempted to try such arrays myself, but have never gotten around to it.  It 
will be interesting to hear your results...

At 09:02 PM 10/20/2003 -0700, Scott Stites wrote:
>Thanks, Jim!  It never occurred to me that they would actually not be on the
>same substrate, but they sure look worth a try, and the thermal tracking
>would be a plus.
>
>They're certainly cheap enough (29 cents apiece at Hosfelt).
>
>Cheers,
>Scott
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "James Patchell" <patchell at cox.net>
>To: "Scott Stites" <scottnoanh at peoplepc.com>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 6:13 PM
>Subject: Re: [sdiy] MPQ2907 Quad Transistor Info?
>
>
> > The MPQ2n2907 might be useful...but, the transistors are not on the same
> > substrate (they are individual die), and so you cannot guarantee any sort
> > of matching at all....however...you would probably find that they are
> > matched more than good enough.  Most likely, the die all came from the
>same
> > wafer (but you cannot count on that), so, they are probably better matched
> > than you would think.  Even when I purchase 2n3906's and set about to
>match
> > them...I am amazed at how often a batch of 20 or so will all be within
> > about 2 mV or so.  So, if they are cheap (like maybe 20 cents a dip, or in
> > that range), give them a try.  Even though they are not on the same
> > substrate, they are in the same package and will probably thermal track
> > good enough.  However, they are not cheap (say $2 a dip)...I would say
> > forget it...and look into transistor arrays from THAT corporation...
> >
> > At 07:54 PM 10/20/2003 -0700, Scott Stites wrote:
> > >Hi list,
> > >
> > >I received my most recent Hosfelt catalog and ran across the quad PNP
> > >package MPQ2907N.  Since apparently the transistors are on the same
> > >substrate, could I assume they're reasonably matched?  I couldn't really
> > >find much information on them on the web.  Any info would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Scott
> >
> >          -Jim
> > ***************************************************
> > I'm a man
> > But I can change
> > If I have to
> > I guess.
> >
> > Man's Prayer
> > Red Green
> >
> > ***************************************************
> > http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
> >
> > http://members.cox.net/patchell
> >
> > ***************************************************
> >
> >
> >

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From t.hogers at home.nl  Tue Oct 21 10:13:44 2003
From: t.hogers at home.nl (Theo)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:13:44 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
References: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net> <009e01c396bf$0f542ac0$93a93841@default>
Message-ID: <001501c397ab$3f514b80$d37478d4@ensch1.ov.home.nl>

Just PWM those suckers !

Theo


>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "harrybissell" <harrybissell at prodigy.net>
> To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 6:09 PM
> Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
>
>
> > Hiya all...
> >
> > I'm planning a vactrol based phaser module (yeah, I know...
> > how original :^)
> >
> > I have a couple of ideas for controling the Vactrols.. like to have
> > any feedback. Maybe you've been there, done that...
> >
> > 1)  Control all the Vactrols with a series current (possibly including
> > the
> > LEDs in an opamp feedback.
> >
> > pro: its easy
> > con: it probably does not cause the interesting part of the sweep to
> > occur
> > over a wide range
> >
> > 2) Control the Vactrols by running them all in series, with one
> > Photocell fed
> > back into the control circuit.  This is an adaptation of the National
> > Semiconductor
> > "Analog Multiplier" found in AN-20.  However, this version will not have
> > one LED
> > illuminating multiple photocells.
> >
> > pro: (subject to matching) the photocell resistance can be accurately
> > specified
> > con: its more complex
> >
> > Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen ???
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> >
>


From debus at cityweb.de  Tue Oct 21 14:55:52 2003
From: debus at cityweb.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:55:52 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] RE: DX7 grounding?
In-Reply-To: <JFEHINLEPNPOGMABAOBDCEAGCMAA.gendreau@rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <E6E97604-03C5-11D8-B8D7-000A9571C136@cityweb.de>


Am Dienstag, 21.10.03 um 04:29 Uhr schrieb Dan Gendreau:

> I just found the DX-7 schematic online and the Canadian version of the 
> power
> supply appears identical except that it includes a center ground pin 
> tied to the
> chasis.
>

Interesting... is the chassis connected to audio ground too?

Most synths sold here in Germany come with two-prong mains plugs, and 
so did the DX7. The DX7II however had a mains plug with protective 
earth, but this was not connected to audio ground (AFAIR). If 
protective earth is connected to audio ground and you have more than 
one device wired this way then it's ground loop time.

Ingo


From gendreau at rochester.rr.com  Tue Oct 21 16:19:50 2003
From: gendreau at rochester.rr.com (Dan Gendreau)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:19:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] RE: DX7 grounding?
In-Reply-To: <E6E97604-03C5-11D8-B8D7-000A9571C136@cityweb.de>
Message-ID: <JFEHINLEPNPOGMABAOBDEEAOCMAA.gendreau@rochester.rr.com>

> Interesting... is the chassis connected to audio ground too?
>
> Most synths sold here in Germany come with two-prong mains plugs, and
> so did the DX7. The DX7II however had a mains plug with protective
> earth, but this was not connected to audio ground (AFAIR). If
> protective earth is connected to audio ground and you have more than
> one device wired this way then it's ground loop time.
>
> Ingo

AFAIK, It does not appear to be connected to audio ground.

In the schematic, the chasis was originally just connected to some sort of odd
capacitor isolated center tap of 2 small transformers before driving the main
power transformer. The earth ground is now tied to the chasis as well. The
Analog and digital grounds are generated after the main power transformer in the
rest of the PSU.

No problems so far using outlets on different circuits in my studio. If I do run
into a ground loop at a gig I have an IEC cord with the earth pin removed for
such an occasion.

-Dan G.


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Tue Oct 21 18:22:37 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
Message-ID: <20031021092237.19494.h041.c002.wm@mail.peoplepc.com.criticalpath.net>


Scott Stites wrote:

"Hi Harry,
I'm using a couple of 2N3904's configured pretty much like Rene Schmitz's
expo control for his VCO 4069"

Ummm.....guess it would be kinda hard to rig that circuit up with two 3904's -
actually I'm using a 3904 and a 3906.

Cheers,
Scott

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 


From p_cooke52 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 21 23:44:01 2003
From: p_cooke52 at hotmail.com (Peter Cooke)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:44:01 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound
Message-ID: <BAY7-F84QUC0GJi6yMz0002ee32@hotmail.com>

> > The documentary about the Radiophonic Workshop will be repeated !
> > I'll be sure to tape it next time... In fact it's probably about time I 
>got
> > a TV capture card in the PC, and tried writing it off to DVD.
>Ah, I managed to catch some of this last night and enjoyed what I saw.
>However what I'd love to know if someone can explain the 'in joke' is
>who the **** was the bald chap lurking behind *every* interviewee not
>saying a word. Kind of strange...!

...and also all the clocks set to 7:58?

_________________________________________________________________
Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with  MSN Messenger 
6.0.  Try it now FREE!  http://msnmessenger-download.com


From gilwein at walla.co.il  Tue Oct 21 23:50:05 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:50:05 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Kawai SX-210 - it is NOT the battery.... 
Message-ID: <200310212150.h9LLo5M11391@omail1.walla.co.il>

More on my miserable Kawai SX210....

On the last 3 days I've been working on complete restoration of the battery section,
where the acid was leaking over... took all the parts in the area (two ICs, and a few transistors and resistors).
Than I copied the traces and layout to a paper (drawn it).

Than scratched the upper layer of the board so there was only the plastic left.

After that I just built the whole section using point-to-point wiring (the same way I build all my 11 guitar effects...)

Unfortunalety, as I powered up I found that the same problem/s persisted !

Again, the first problem is the dial wheel (increment) that doesn't respond,
and this occured during my last tried to repair the instrument, it has worked till than !

The other problem is that on specific presets the sound get scattered when very certain key combinations
are played, and also a few keys can playes a duller sound than what the preset is.

Any direction ?? I can post the schematics if it can help !!

Thanks in advance I *need* to repair is it's a rare wonderful sounding instrument !

Gil.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walla! Mail, Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Walla! at:
http://mail.walla.co.il

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From sbernardi at comcast.net  Wed Oct 22 06:50:04 2003
From: sbernardi at comcast.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:50:04 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Rene Schmitz: can't get to your site
Message-ID: <3F960C7C.8010303@comcast.net>

Rene, I was going to give someone a link to your exponential converter 
tutorial but I'm getting Access Forbidden errors.
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/synth.html

-- 
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at comcast.net




From t.hogers at home.nl  Wed Oct 22 08:42:08 2003
From: t.hogers at home.nl (Theo)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:42:08 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
References: <20031021092237.19494.h041.c002.wm@mail.peoplepc.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <006901c39867$9d868c80$d37478d4@ensch1.ov.home.nl>

For my vactrol multimode filter module I use the led steering from Rene
Schmitz's Tube filter.
Theo

(btw Scott, Rene's site seems to be working fine again)

>
> Scott Stites wrote:
>
> "Hi Harry,
> I'm using a couple of 2N3904's configured pretty much like Rene Schmitz's
> expo control for his VCO 4069"
>
> Ummm.....guess it would be kinda hard to rig that circuit up with two
3904's -
> actually I'm using a 3904 and a 3906.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
> http://www.peoplepc.com


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Wed Oct 22 12:43:50 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:43:50 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Rene Schmitz: can't get to your site
In-Reply-To: <3F960C7C.8010303@comcast.net>
References: <3F960C7C.8010303@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3F965F66.2000902@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Scott,

Scott Bernardi wrote:
> Rene, I was going to give someone a link to your exponential converter 
> tutorial but I'm getting Access Forbidden errors.
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/synth.html
> 

Thanks for the note!

Apparently this was just a glitch.

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From takeda at aleph.co.jp  Wed Oct 22 16:02:36 2003
From: takeda at aleph.co.jp (Motohiko Takeda)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:02:36 +0900
Subject: [sdiy] Wave shaper
Message-ID: <3F968DFC.5EE7A7A1@aleph.co.jp>

Hi list,

I write page about experiment of wave shaper based on sum houshu's method.

http://www.aleph.co.jp/~takeda/radio/morph/

Check it out please!

Cheers,
Motohiko Takeda
Tokyo Japan.


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Wed Oct 22 16:18:22 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:18:22 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Wave shaper
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F1C@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

Cool. Another solution. Comes close to what I tried first, but I gave up too early.
It is possible that I started this discussion long
ago. I was impressed by some Maxim frequency generator
chip with such a feature built in.

Now I know why I still have these RC4200 in the drawer!

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Motohiko Takeda
> Sent: Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2003 16:03
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] Wave shaper
> 
> 
> Hi list,
> 
> I write page about experiment of wave shaper based on sum 
> houshu's method.
> 
> http://www.aleph.co.jp/~takeda/radio/morph/
> 
> Check it out please!
> 
> Cheers,
> Motohiko Takeda
> Tokyo Japan.
> 


From modular at go2.pl  Wed Oct 22 17:06:53 2003
From: modular at go2.pl (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Roman?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:06:53 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Re:=20[sdiy]=20Wave=20shaper?=
Message-ID: <20031022150653.EC2CF8AA46@rekin4.o2.pl>

awesome!

---- Wiadomo?? Oryginalna ----
Od: Motohiko Takeda <takeda at aleph.co.jp>
Do: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Data: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:02:36 +0900
Temat: [sdiy] Wave shaper

>Hi list,
>
>I write page about experiment of wave shaper based on sum houshu's method.
>
>http://www.aleph.co.jp/~takeda/radio/morph/
>
>Check it out please!
>
>Cheers,
>Motohiko Takeda
>Tokyo Japan.
>


From jhaible at debitel.net  Wed Oct 22 17:28:34 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible at debitel.net)
Date: 22 Oct 2003 17:28:34 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Musical applications for dome filters
In-Reply-To: <20031022150653.EC2CF8AA46@rekin4.o2.pl>
References: <20031022150653.EC2CF8AA46@rekin4.o2.pl>
Message-ID: <1066836513.3f96a221ec662@www.debitel.net>

Now that I'm building a couple of "Hilbert Transform" 
dome filters for the FS-2 Stereo Frequency Shifter,
and as I don't know it this will ever actually be
built -
does nybody know _other_ interesting applications for
splitting an audio signal into a quadrature pair?

One thing comes to mind: Stereo FX that don't cancel
in mono because the mix for 2 channels is not 180deg
out of phase, just 90deg.

Other ideas?

JH.

-------------------------------------------------
debitel.net Webmail


From synthdiy at technotransplant.com  Wed Oct 22 19:33:29 2003
From: synthdiy at technotransplant.com (DIY@Technotransplant.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:33:29 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] WARNING: Ebay SPOOF stealing account & personal info
References: <20031022150653.EC2CF8AA46@rekin4.o2.pl> <1066836513.3f96a221ec662@www.debitel.net>
Message-ID: <032f01c398c2$9e553ed0$21cd94d3@ECGroup>

Sorry for the off topic post but there has just begun a spoof email
that has claimed and looks to be from ebay.

It request bank, credit card, social security, paypal login and more.

Please do not submit this information.  We have confirmed with ebay it
is NOT FROM EBAY.


From gene at ixiacom.com  Wed Oct 22 19:57:22 2003
From: gene at ixiacom.com (Gene Stopp)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:57:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] WARNING: Ebay SPOOF stealing account & personal info
Message-ID: <15FDCE057B48784C80836803AE3598D503A54DD1@mail.ixiacom.com>

Yeah seen these... my general rule is that the real eBay does not ever ask
for anything.

Also I've developed a sense of callous spoof awareness. For example, got
this yesterday:


At 10.19.2003 our company has lost all
accounts in the system during the database
crash. You must update your account's details
immediately otherwise your account
will be lost in two days! Please click on the link
below to get to the eBay security update page and re-enter
your account's and Credit Card's details. If you have any
problems, please mail us.
Thank you.


First of all, "At 10.19.2003" is bad English. So is "during the database
crash". What database crash? Like we've all heard of it (and certainly eBay
has a better IT department than that). Another giveaway is the exclamation
point in "otherwise your account will be lost in two days!". Oooh, scary.
Then there's "re-enter your account's and Credit Card's details". What's
with the apostrophes there? Bad, bad English.

Pretty lame. Nice try mister teenage asian dude. No offense to the nice guys
out there :)


- Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: DIY at Technotransplant.com [mailto:synthdiy at technotransplant.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 10:33 AM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [LIKELY JUNK][sdiy] WARNING: Ebay SPOOF stealing account &
personal info
Importance: High


Sorry for the off topic post but there has just begun a spoof email
that has claimed and looks to be from ebay.

It request bank, credit card, social security, paypal login and more.

Please do not submit this information.  We have confirmed with ebay it
is NOT FROM EBAY.


From madhun2001 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 22 21:06:40 2003
From: madhun2001 at yahoo.com (Tim Ressel)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] WARNING: Ebay SPOOF stealing account & personal info
In-Reply-To: <032f01c398c2$9e553ed0$21cd94d3@ECGroup>
Message-ID: <20031022190640.91673.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com>

Yo,

I received a similar message claiming to be Citibank.
I sent the message to the FBI who told me there was an
ongoing investigation into these kinds of scams.

In general, legitimate businesses will not ask for
passwords or PIN numbers to be sent 'in the clear'
i.e. without encryption. Any email that does ask for
these things is automatically suspect.

The Internet is like a bazarre in an exotic foreign
country. One has to be very careful walking into a
place like that. Most of the shopkeepers are on the
level, but there is a wiley character around every
corner waiting to scam a sucker.

--TimR

--- "DIY at Technotransplant.com"
<synthdiy at technotransplant.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the off topic post but there has just
> begun a spoof email
> that has claimed and looks to be from ebay.
> 
> It request bank, credit card, social security,
> paypal login and more.
> 
> Please do not submit this information.  We have
> confirmed with ebay it
> is NOT FROM EBAY.


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From gene at ixiacom.com  Wed Oct 22 21:27:47 2003
From: gene at ixiacom.com (Gene Stopp)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:27:47 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] WARNING: Ebay SPOOF stealing account & personal info
Message-ID: <15FDCE057B48784C80836803AE3598D503A54DD7@mail.ixiacom.com>

And being a operating system connected to a LAN is like being an organism in
the primordeal soup!

- Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Ressel


.
.
.
The Internet is like a bazarre in an exotic foreign
country. One has to be very careful walking into a
place like that. Most of the shopkeepers are on the
level, but there is a wiley character around every
corner waiting to scam a sucker.
.
.
.


From trypannon at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 22 23:51:59 2003
From: trypannon at hotmail.com (Steve Begin)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:51:59 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [OT]Midi as PC input device
Message-ID: <LAW12-OE38k2ig4yorA00003f55@hotmail.com>

I got Pd, but I think it may be beyond me.  Would I have to program some C
code to do what I'm trying to do?
-Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "yasi perera" <pi0say at hotmail.com>
To: <trypannon at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] [OT]Midi as PC input device


> Hi Steve, I only just saw your sdiy post, so sorry if your question has
already been answered..
>
> >Is there any software out there that would take midi input and emulate a
gamepad or computer >keyboard with it?  Er...so for example you could play
notes on a controller keyboard and your >computer would see it as though you
were typing letters?
>
> Pd (pure data) can do this for free. Max (of Max/MSP) will do it for money
on a Mac only (so far).
>
> HTH,
> yasi perera
>
>


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Thu Oct 23 00:03:07 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:03:07 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Wave shaper
In-Reply-To: <3F968DFC.5EE7A7A1@aleph.co.jp>
References: <3F968DFC.5EE7A7A1@aleph.co.jp>
Message-ID: <3F96FE9B.4010107@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Motohiko and List ,

> I write page about experiment of wave shaper based on sum houshu's method.

Very nice!

While on the subject of tri-saw morphing: At the German SDIY meeting we 
talked a little about this, and Frank Springer mentioned, that, as far 
as he recalled, the VCS3 did have a discontinuity in the waveform, when 
it was set away from the triangle position.

Can anybody confirm this?

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From jhaible at debitel.net  Thu Oct 23 00:42:07 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:42:07 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Wave shaper
References: <3F968DFC.5EE7A7A1@aleph.co.jp> <3F96FE9B.4010107@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <000e01c398ed$bade2e60$b176b9d9@debitel.net>

> While on the subject of tri-saw morphing: At the German SDIY meeting we
> talked a little about this, and Frank Springer mentioned, that, as far
> as he recalled, the VCS3 did have a discontinuity in the waveform, when
> it was set away from the triangle position.
>
> Can anybody confirm this?

Sure. Looks not as nice on a scope. But very useful as a modulation source.
More useful than the smooth version, I'd say.

JH.



From trypannon at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 23 00:57:19 2003
From: trypannon at hotmail.com (Steve Begin)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:57:19 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ASM-1 faceplate
Message-ID: <Law12-OE47FPR9m8WGQ00008c62@hotmail.com>

I was just wondering if there is anybody currently selling ASM-1 faceplates.  I've don't really have the means or the know-how to build one myself.
-Steve
-------------- next part --------------
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From izx at xizx.net  Thu Oct 23 03:59:23 2003
From: izx at xizx.net (Ishaan Dalal)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:59:23 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <048d01c39909$47d36ea0$0300a8c0@SOAR>

Class D audio amps are pure switchers, in that the "amplifier" is either on
or off, resulting in higher efficiency (no crossover) compared to Class A,
B, AB amps.

How an implementation might work is:

1. A high frequency (~400 KHz) triangle wave
2. Analog input with full-scale comparable to triangle full-scale
3. 1 & 2 are inputs to a comparator, that drives a MOSFET, giving you a high
frequency pulse-width-modulated square pulse train.
4. These are lowpassed to audio frequency with an LC config before going to
your speakers.

Of course, this is a very rudimentary version. An improvement would be to
use a h-bridge to drive your speakers, giving you full +ve/-ve swings.

There is definitely literature on the web about class D audio amps, but it
is geared more towards EEs. You would be better off asking this question on
sci.electronics.design or sci.electronics.basics .

Cheers,
Ishaan


----- Original Message -----
From: "Czech Martin" <Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
To: "Sdiy (E-mail)" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:18 AM
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp


> Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
> So far I only could find some theoretical paper or commercials.
>
> m.c.
>


From patchell at cox.net  Thu Oct 23 05:43:46 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:43:46 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ASM-1 faceplate
In-Reply-To: <Law12-OE47FPR9m8WGQ00008c62@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031022204123.00b5cf68@pop.west.cox.net>

Some body should do up a "Schaefer" (sp) file for an asm1 and post it 
somewhere...then all that would be needed is to send it to either Schaefer 
or Front Panel Express, and you have a panel...I would imagine that an asm1 
panel from them would probably cost about $100...

At 06:57 PM 10/22/2003 -0400, Steve Begin wrote:
>I was just wondering if there is anybody currently selling ASM-1 
>faceplates.  I've don't really have the means or the know-how to build one 
>myself.
>-Steve

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From rdrake at data2action.com  Thu Oct 23 06:23:29 2003
From: rdrake at data2action.com (R. Drake)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:23:29 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] ASM-1 faceplate
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031022204123.00b5cf68@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <BBBCD001.17DCD%rdrake@data2action.com>

I for one would be interested in hearing about such a resource.
Unfortunately there's no mac version of their Front Panel Designer software,
so I can't take on such a project myself.  Do they offer a discount for
multiple copies of a panel in one order?

lbd 


on 10/22/03 11:43 PM, James Patchell at patchell at cox.net wrote:

> Some body should do up a "Schaefer" (sp) file for an asm1 and post it
> somewhere...then all that would be needed is to send it to either Schaefer
> or Front Panel Express, and you have a panel...I would imagine that an asm1
> panel from them would probably cost about $100...
> 
> At 06:57 PM 10/22/2003 -0400, Steve Begin wrote:
>> I was just wondering if there is anybody currently selling ASM-1
>> faceplates.  I've don't really have the means or the know-how to build one
>> myself.
>> -Steve
> 
> -Jim
> ***************************************************
> I'm a man
> But I can change
> If I have to
> I guess.
> 
> Man's Prayer
> Red Green
> 
> ***************************************************
> http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
> 
> http://members.cox.net/patchell
> 
> ***************************************************
> 


From patchell at cox.net  Thu Oct 23 06:40:36 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:40:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ASM-1 faceplate
In-Reply-To: <BBBCD001.17DCD%rdrake@data2action.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031022204123.00b5cf68@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031022213907.00b13368@pop.west.cox.net>

Yes they do...I think it is rather substantial even at 5 units (seems like 
10% or so)....but, don't take my word on that.

At 12:23 AM 10/23/2003 -0400, R. Drake wrote:
>I for one would be interested in hearing about such a resource.
>Unfortunately there's no mac version of their Front Panel Designer software,
>so I can't take on such a project myself.  Do they offer a discount for
>multiple copies of a panel in one order?
>
>lbd
>
>
>on 10/22/03 11:43 PM, James Patchell at patchell at cox.net wrote:
>
> > Some body should do up a "Schaefer" (sp) file for an asm1 and post it
> > somewhere...then all that would be needed is to send it to either Schaefer
> > or Front Panel Express, and you have a panel...I would imagine that an asm1
> > panel from them would probably cost about $100...
> >
> > At 06:57 PM 10/22/2003 -0400, Steve Begin wrote:
> >> I was just wondering if there is anybody currently selling ASM-1
> >> faceplates.  I've don't really have the means or the know-how to build one
> >> myself.
> >> -Steve
> >
> > -Jim
> > ***************************************************
> > I'm a man
> > But I can change
> > If I have to
> > I guess.
> >
> > Man's Prayer
> > Red Green
> >
> > ***************************************************
> > http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
> >
> > http://members.cox.net/patchell
> >
> > ***************************************************
> >

         -Jim
***************************************************
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

http://members.cox.net/patchell

***************************************************



From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Thu Oct 23 10:23:10 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:23:10 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F20@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

AFAIR the relation between gaussian noise and white
noise was, that the pure random white noise (equal probability
for all possible amplitude values) gets to the bell curve
via averaging, i.e. low pass filtering.

What are the design specs for such a lowpass.
I think I knew it, but I can't remember, 
I guess I'm getting old.

m.c.



 


From ifrc at iar.se  Thu Oct 23 10:38:35 2003
From: ifrc at iar.se (Fredrik Carlqvist)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:38:35 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F20@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c39941$0c2cea60$9dc909c0@fredrikcw2k>


I would define white noise as 'any value in [-1,1]' (or som other interval)
with equal probability, i. e. with rectangular distribution. Gaussian noise
is then achieved by summing several of these sources. Just like the sum of
several rectangularly distributed stochastic variables approaches a gaussian
distribution. 

Fredrik C

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Czech Martin
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:23
To: Sdiy (E-mail)
Subject: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise


AFAIR the relation between gaussian noise and white
noise was, that the pure random white noise (equal probability for all
possible amplitude values) gets to the bell curve via averaging, i.e. low
pass filtering.

What are the design specs for such a lowpass.
I think I knew it, but I can't remember, 
I guess I'm getting old.

m.c.



 



From cynthia.webster at gte.net  Thu Oct 23 10:54:53 2003
From: cynthia.webster at gte.net (Cynthia Webster)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:54:53 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ASM-1 faceplate
In-Reply-To: <BBBCD001.17DCD%rdrake@data2action.com>
Message-ID: <BBBCE56D.1158D%cynthia.webster@gte.net>

I am doing a small run of ASM-1 Panels in Modcan module panel format
for someone, if anyone here is interested I could make a few more.

Cynthia



on 10/22/03 9:23 PM, R. Drake at rdrake at data2action.com wrote:

> I for one would be interested in hearing about such a resource.
> Unfortunately there's no mac version of their Front Panel Designer software,
> so I can't take on such a project myself.  Do they offer a discount for
> multiple copies of a panel in one order?
> 
> lbd 
> 
> 
> on 10/22/03 11:43 PM, James Patchell at patchell at cox.net wrote:
> 
>> Some body should do up a "Schaefer" (sp) file for an asm1 and post it
>> somewhere...then all that would be needed is to send it to either Schaefer
>> or Front Panel Express, and you have a panel...I would imagine that an asm1
>> panel from them would probably cost about $100...
>> 
>> At 06:57 PM 10/22/2003 -0400, Steve Begin wrote:
>>> I was just wondering if there is anybody currently selling ASM-1
>>> faceplates.  I've don't really have the means or the know-how to build one
>>> myself.
>>> -Steve
>> 
>> -Jim
>> ***************************************************
>> I'm a man
>> But I can change
>> If I have to
>> I guess.
>> 
>> Man's Prayer
>> Red Green
>> 
>> ***************************************************
>> http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell
>> 
>> http://members.cox.net/patchell
>> 
>> ***************************************************
>> 
> 


From s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk  Thu Oct 23 11:27:21 2003
From: s.thomas at qmul.ac.uk (s.thomas)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:27:21 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound
References: <20031020090339.35AFC2461C7@smithers.nildram.co.uk> <3F93ACEF.5D93EE4D@btopenworld.com>
Message-ID: <004801c39947$dcb39430$eefa0250@tardis>

Hi all ..just wondering if anyone on the list managed to record the recent
BBC4 'alchemists of sound' broadcast?
I would be very interested in a copy ..please email me off list.

cheers
steve


From oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Oct 23 11:38:09 2003
From: oakley at techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk (Oakley Sound)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:38:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com> <048d01c39909$47d36ea0$0300a8c0@SOAR>
Message-ID: <015a01c39949$919db500$6570fea9@oemcomputer>

> Class D audio amps are pure switchers, in that the "amplifier" is
either on or off, resulting in higher efficiency (no crossover) compared
to Class A, B, AB amps...

Whilst they do display potential to be more efficient, care needs to be
taken to ensure that not too much power is wasted in driving the LC
filter at the output stage. Higher switch frequencies also require
quality ferrites for the L parts of the filter.

Things have changed since I worked on a 2KW class-D back in 1987. It was
mainly intended to produce a 'pure' (1% THD) 31.25KHz sine wave
oscillator at 2KW. FETs, high voltage caps and Ferrites have all
improved these days. There's at least one company offering evaluation
boards for class-D amps. But then, my colleague and I at Marconi
Instruments were breaking new ground at that time, we even had visits to
several UK universities talking about our work. Unfortunately, the
parent project was shelved due to commercial pressures. [This pissed me
off so much that I left, only to loose my job two months later when my
new company's directors embezzled the profits!]

I remember reading that the chap that designed the first class-D amp in
the 1930s had to work with relays! We had MOSFETs, six of them I think
in H formation running off rectifed mains. The compound Cgs at nearly
10nF meant that the gate drive current was peaking at around 5A. I think
we used four DS0026 gate drivers chips. But our biggest problem, along
with the new fangled EMC tests, was with high values of d(Vds)/dt; it
would break through into the gate and the FET would stay on too long.
BANG!! Cartridge feed FET systems were imagined.

Regards,

Tony Allgood                         www.oakleysound.co.uk

Oakley Modular Synthesisers      Penrith, Cumbria, England


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Thu Oct 23 12:21:26 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:21:26 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <3F97ABA6.1080904@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Martin,

> Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
> So far I only could find some theoretical paper or commercials.
> 
> m.c.
> 

http://listen.to/audioexperiment

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Oct 23 13:24:49 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:24:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F20@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F20@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <20031023.132449.74721852.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Czech Martin" <Martin.Czech at micronas.com>
Subject: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:23:10 +0200

> AFAIR the relation between gaussian noise and white
> noise was, that the pure random white noise (equal probability
> for all possible amplitude values) gets to the bell curve
> via averaging, i.e. low pass filtering.

Eh... no!

Gaussian noise and white noise is the same. The gaussian distribution is the
statistical chance of the signal to have a certain voltage (or whatever messure
is applicable). Thus, the gaussian distribution is a property of the white
noise and is often called gaussian noise when the distribution is of
importance. The real definition is really that it is noise such that there is
equal noise energy per Hertz over the whole frequency band (of practical
interest). Noise according to this definition has the gaussian distribution and
can be proved separately.

It is by the way useless to talk about "Peak-to-peak" measures on white noise,
since there is always a small chance for very high amplitudes. Noise should be
measured in power (RMS) and the noise bandwidth should be given with the
measure.

> What are the design specs for such a lowpass.
> I think I knew it, but I can't remember, 
> I guess I'm getting old.

I think you are confusing things with pink noise.

And yes, you are getting old. You got older just reading this email. You
probably got even older waiting for an answer.

Cheeers,
Magnus - aging


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Thu Oct 23 13:29:29 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:29:29 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Wave shaper
In-Reply-To: <000e01c398ed$bade2e60$b176b9d9@debitel.net>
References: <3F968DFC.5EE7A7A1@aleph.co.jp> <3F96FE9B.4010107@uni-bonn.de> <000e01c398ed$bade2e60$b176b9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <3F97BB99.3010601@uni-bonn.de>

jhaible wrote:
> Sure. Looks not as nice on a scope. But very useful as a modulation source.
> More useful than the smooth version, I'd say.

Ah! Another of these things that were mysterious to me sorted out.

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Oct 23 13:30:02 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:30:02 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise
In-Reply-To: <002a01c39941$0c2cea60$9dc909c0@fredrikcw2k>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F20@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
	<002a01c39941$0c2cea60$9dc909c0@fredrikcw2k>
Message-ID: <20031023.133002.41662395.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Fredrik Carlqvist" <ifrc at iar.se>
Subject: RE: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:38:35 +0200

> 
> I would define white noise as 'any value in [-1,1]' (or som other interval)
> with equal probability, i. e. with rectangular distribution.

I wouln't do that. There is already definitions for white noise and the usage
is not correlated with what you are proposing.

> Gaussian noise
> is then achieved by summing several of these sources. Just like the sum of
> several rectangularly distributed stochastic variables approaches a gaussian
> distribution. 

Gaussian noise and white noise is the summing of an infinit number of sines
spread equally over the frequency range, all having the same amplitude. The
gaussian distribution (gaussian bell) is the probability pattern formed by the
summing of all these sines.

PS. Isn't this list becomming very noisy?

Cheers,
Magnus - delivers distorted noise since birth


From cfmd at swipnet.se  Thu Oct 23 13:34:23 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:34:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] M.J.Gingell thesis, where?
In-Reply-To: <200310231115.h9NBFuGj021773@correo.direccion.com>
References: <200310231115.h9NBFuGj021773@correo.direccion.com>
Message-ID: <20031023.133423.130209443.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Fernando de Izuzquiza <fdi at ran.es>
Subject: [sdiy] M.J.Gingell thesis, where?
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:09:46 -0000

> Hi,
> I found this time ago. It looks very interesting, but I can't find it again
> to download... (I only have the index pdf)
> Any clue of where is it? I emailed the author, but no response.
> The thesis title is
> "The synthesis and application of polyphase filters with sequence asymmetric
> properties"
> by Michael John Gingell, 1975. University of London.

I have it up on the web. Mike was very kind and took a great effort in order to
transfer them to me so I could put them on the web. I have however failed to
actually to a webpage for them as I recall it. However, if you go back in time
a few months you will find the URLs you need in an email from me to J?rgen
Haible in a thread relating to frequency shifters. I could try to tidy that
situation up when I come home (sitting in the office now).

This is a very good reading if you want to know the ins and outs of good
frequency shifters. While the theory is a bit mind-blowing at first, once you
"got it" it comes down to fairly simple layouts, dimensionings and all that.

Cheers,
Magnus


From fdi at ran.es  Thu Oct 23 15:02:36 2003
From: fdi at ran.es (Fernando de Izuzquiza)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:02:36 -0000
Subject: [sdiy] varactor diode phaser
Message-ID: <200310231108.h9NB8kGj020681@correo.direccion.com>

I found this short article
"LOW-LOSS ANALOG PHASE SHIFTER
USING VARACTOR DIODES"
It may give someone a good idea
http://www.ifh.ee.ethz.ch/~megej/eng/ps_letter.pdf

Fernando
<br><br>
Direccion.com<br>
________________________________________________<br>
This
mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0


From takeda at aleph.co.jp  Thu Oct 23 15:07:20 2003
From: takeda at aleph.co.jp (Motohiko Takeda)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:07:20 +0900
Subject: [sdiy] Vactrol control ideas wanted
References: <3F9335C1.F3FEFB39@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3F97D288.399EA2C7@aleph.co.jp>

Hi harry and all

Now I also try some phase shifter inspired by scott state's page.
it's in a middle of the report about hand made vactrol.

http://www.aleph.co.jp/~takeda/radio/phaser/indexE.html

you can check the linearly about vactrol. It's so poor I think.

Cheers,
Motohiko Takeda
Tokyo Japan.


From fdi at ran.es  Thu Oct 23 15:09:46 2003
From: fdi at ran.es (Fernando de Izuzquiza)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:09:46 -0000
Subject: [sdiy] M.J.Gingell thesis, where?
Message-ID: <200310231115.h9NBFuGj021773@correo.direccion.com>

Hi,
I found this time ago. It looks very interesting, but I can't find it again
to download... (I only have the index pdf)
Any clue of where is it? I emailed the author, but no response.
The thesis title is
"The synthesis and application of polyphase filters with sequence asymmetric
properties"
by Michael John Gingell, 1975. University of London.

Thanks,

Fernando
<br><br>
Direccion.com<br>
________________________________________________<br>
This
mail was sent by Direccion.com 2.0


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Thu Oct 23 15:32:19 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:32:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F21@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

well, I think the the output LRC lowpass should have a first stage
with air coils and low high frequency loss capacitors.
These won't be appropriate for 20kHz, but better at 200kHz,
this is where the main frequency is.
Some kind of "guard" filter that protects the following
audio lowpass from beeing driven with too much RF.

Another thing is the diodes that short the first inductance
kick back during switching. I guess Schottky types.

For improvement I have seen "dithering",
pulse duration & pulse frequency modulation
and several feedback mechanisms.
Might be difficult to implement with simple (DIY)
means. Anyway, I'm looking for sub bass amplification,
where efficiency of portable speakers is very bad.
So the bandwidth is perhaps 1000Hz only.

The other thing is a portable noise source, distortion
doesn't really matter in this case. But battery life
does.

Many thanx for all the input I got!

m.c.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of Oakley Sound
> Sent: Donnerstag, 23. Oktober 2003 11:38
> To: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
> 
> 
> > Class D audio amps are pure switchers, in that the "amplifier" is
> either on or off, resulting in higher efficiency (no 
> crossover) compared
> to Class A, B, AB amps...
> 
> Whilst they do display potential to be more efficient, care 
> needs to be
> taken to ensure that not too much power is wasted in driving the LC
> filter at the output stage. Higher switch frequencies also require
> quality ferrites for the L parts of the filter.
> 
> Things have changed since I worked on a 2KW class-D back in 
> 1987. It was
> mainly intended to produce a 'pure' (1% THD) 31.25KHz sine wave
> oscillator at 2KW. FETs, high voltage caps and Ferrites have all
> improved these days. There's at least one company offering evaluation
> boards for class-D amps. But then, my colleague and I at Marconi
> Instruments were breaking new ground at that time, we even 
> had visits to
> several UK universities talking about our work. Unfortunately, the
> parent project was shelved due to commercial pressures. [This 
> pissed me
> off so much that I left, only to loose my job two months later when my
> new company's directors embezzled the profits!]
> 
> I remember reading that the chap that designed the first 
> class-D amp in
> the 1930s had to work with relays! We had MOSFETs, six of them I think
> in H formation running off rectifed mains. The compound Cgs at nearly
> 10nF meant that the gate drive current was peaking at around 
> 5A. I think
> we used four DS0026 gate drivers chips. But our biggest problem, along
> with the new fangled EMC tests, was with high values of d(Vds)/dt; it
> would break through into the gate and the FET would stay on too long.
> BANG!! Cartridge feed FET systems were imagined.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tony Allgood                         www.oakleysound.co.uk
> 
> Oakley Modular Synthesisers      Penrith, Cumbria, England
> 
> 


From david.k.cornutt at boeing.com  Thu Oct 23 17:04:54 2003
From: david.k.cornutt at boeing.com (Cornutt, David K)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:04:54 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of Sound
Message-ID: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DBA@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>

While we're on the subject... is there someone across
the pond that has the capability and would be willing
to convert it to NTSC and mail a copy out so those of
us in the States and the Provinces could see it?
I'd be willing to pay the costs involved.


From david.k.cornutt at boeing.com  Thu Oct 23 17:10:23 2003
From: david.k.cornutt at boeing.com (Cornutt, David K)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:10:23 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise
Message-ID: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DBB@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>


From: Fredrik Carlqvist [mailto:ifrc at iar.se]
> What are the design specs for such a lowpass.

White noise power doubles per each higher octave.
So you want a 3 dB/octave lowpass filter.


From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Thu Oct 23 18:55:02 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:55:02 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class D schematics found
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C594@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

after searching through a lot of non DIY stuff, I found this:

http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/abayko/pa1x200/pa1x200.htm

On the Texas Instrument (TI) site, I found an analog class D chip
20W, with interesting modulation scheme. I think it has perhaps
a disadvantage at low audio level, they want to avoid coils
at all cost...

H bridge seems to be common now.

m.c.


From xyzzy at sysabend.org  Thu Oct 23 19:43:53 2003
From: xyzzy at sysabend.org (Tom Arnold)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:43:53 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <20031023174353.GA25109@moo.sysabend.org>

On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 04:18:45PM +0200, Czech Martin wrote:
> Could anyone point me to diy audio amp project switch class D?
> So far I only could find some theoretical paper or commercials.

Circuit Cellar magazine happens to have an article on 
building a Class D audio amp based around some chip who escapes me
right now.  The parts count was extremely low and it went into a least
a bit of detail on theory and realworld application.

Hrm. Or it was Nuts&Volts.  I will look when I get home.
I cant seem to find the article listed on circuitcellar.com except for the
All Digital Audio Amp article which is in a very new issue of the
magazine.

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  - 
 - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          -
 - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       - 
 --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" -


From xyzzy at sysabend.org  Thu Oct 23 20:01:48 2003
From: xyzzy at sysabend.org (Tom Arnold)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:01:48 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] ot: class d audio amp
In-Reply-To: <20031023174353.GA25109@moo.sysabend.org>
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C55D@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com> <20031023174353.GA25109@moo.sysabend.org>
Message-ID: <20031023180148.GC25109@moo.sysabend.org>

On Thu, Oct 23, 2003 at 10:43:53AM -0700, Tom Arnold wrote:
> Circuit Cellar magazine happens to have an article on 
> building a Class D audio amp based around some chip who escapes me
> right now.  The parts count was extremely low and it went into a least
> a bit of detail on theory and realworld application.

Actually, its older then I thought.

http://www.circuitcellar.com/magazine/156toc.htm

>From The Bench - D-Classifying Your Audio.  Can purchase the article
for $1.50US.

http://www.microelectr.com.hk/ZXCD1000.PDF for the core chip they used.

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  - 
 - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          -
 - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       - 
 --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" -


From eduni at ucsd.edu  Thu Oct 23 22:17:13 2003
From: eduni at ucsd.edu (Ethan Duni)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:17:13 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] gaussian noise related to white noise
References: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF38F20@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>
Message-ID: <008301c399a2$a58d04e0$35dfef84@dsplab>

No no no...

Noise can be Gaussian and not white, or white but not Gaussian. Saying noise
is white is a statement about the dependence of the value of the noise at
some time on the value of the noise at another time. Noise is called "white"
if there is no correlation between the values of the noise process at
different times (that is, the noise is a sequence of independent, or at
least uncorrelated, random variables). As someone else mentioned, this is
equivalent to the power spectral density of the noise process being a
constant (which means double the power for each octave). This says almost
nothing about the actual distribution of the noise at any given time.

For noise to be Gaussian, it means that the value of the noise at any given
time has a Gaussian distribution (which may or may not depend on the value
of the noise at other times). White, Gaussian noise is probably the most
common noise model, hence the confusion.

Ethan


From intent at netpratique.fr  Fri Oct 24 02:10:01 2003
From: intent at netpratique.fr (Linium)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:10:01 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Damned amplifier
Message-ID: <200310240210.02011.intent@netpratique.fr>

Hi, I am back on this list after one year off.
Now that my 2 amplifers are fixed i would like to thanks all the people who 
shared their experiences last year, and specially Glen Berry who found the 
exact problem. 
On both of my amplifiers the relays had some bad contacts. On the Sony TA-AX3 
(an old silver piece of shit probably) the relay was transparent so i had 
little to do to get off the top of the relay with a tool and clean up the 
contacts.  Bingo ! 
It was the exact same story with the SAMSON SERVO 150 wich has much more value 
for me since i use it to drive my Tannoy Reveal. The relay was not 
transparent but i managed to guess where the contacts were and at my surprise 
the plastic cover was easy to scratch off. After some cleaning the amplifier 
showed a perfect behavior and i use it every day now. 

Well it was just some feedback about this because i think that other people 
may face a similar problem.

Cheers,

Linium

 At 03:06 PM 11/11/02 , Linium wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I have 2 stereo amplifiers that show almost the same faulty behaviors and i
>would like to ask about this kind of problem.
>
>The amplifier work ok but there are some moments where a voice start to have
>some very short loss in the signal, like there is a bad contact somewhere.

Do the amplifiers use relays to delay the amplifier?s connection to
speakers, as a means of preventing ??turn-on thump??? If so, these relays can
develop poor connections and cause problems similar to what you describe.
They can also cause crossover distortion.

later,
Glen Berry







From rdrake at data2action.com  Fri Oct 24 15:23:04 2003
From: rdrake at data2action.com (rdrake at data2action.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:23:04 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] DIY panel printing?
Message-ID: <200310241323.h9ODN4fZ024195@mmm1113.verio-web.com>

here's a review of a laser etching machine that connects like a printer to yr pc:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1360231,00.asp

If anyone on the list invests the $10k, I'm sure s/he could recoup at least some of the price by offering the service to sdiyers...


From colin at colinfraser.com  Fri Oct 24 18:49:15 2003
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:49:15 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Alchemists of sound on BBC4 digital tv in UK
In-Reply-To: <BBB8E3F2.FBF%tania.gallagher@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <000501c39a4e$c32e1690$152ca8c0@ZEN>

Anyone interested in a DVD copy of the Alchemists of Sound documentary
shown this week on BBC 4, drop me a mail.
The documentary covered the history of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop,
including interviews and archive footage of Delia Derbyshire, John
Baker, Paddy Kingsland et al.

Cheers,
Colin f



From xyzzy at sysabend.org  Fri Oct 24 19:20:32 2003
From: xyzzy at sysabend.org (Tom Arnold)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:20:32 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] DIY panel printing?
In-Reply-To: <200310241323.h9ODN4fZ024195@mmm1113.verio-web.com>
References: <200310241323.h9ODN4fZ024195@mmm1113.verio-web.com>
Message-ID: <20031024172032.GG25109@moo.sysabend.org>

On Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 09:23:04AM -0400, rdrake at data2action.com wrote:
> here's a review of a laser etching machine that connects like a printer to yr pc:
> 
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1360231,00.asp

I'm wondering if one could do circuit boards on this thing.  Looking at
their website it doesnt show cutting metal, but perhaps it could be used
to burn resist off a board before etching.

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  - 
 - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          -
 - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       - 
 --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" -


From mverbos at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 24 19:24:49 2003
From: mverbos at earthlink.net (mark verbos)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:24:49 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] DIY panel printing?
In-Reply-To: <200310241323.h9ODN4fZ024195@mmm1113.verio-web.com>
References: <200310241323.h9ODN4fZ024195@mmm1113.verio-web.com>
Message-ID: <3F996061.8090003@earthlink.net>

This thing is sick. Not only can you engrave panels, but cut holes 
insted of drilling! Like the panels behind the foil on a Serge. How 
about making a circuit board with lazer etching insted of photo 
process.... i like the chocolate bar idea. The ideas keep coming. Anyone 
got $10,000?

mark



rdrake at data2action.com wrote:

>here's a review of a laser etching machine that connects like a printer to yr pc:
>
>http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1360231,00.asp
>
>If anyone on the list invests the $10k, I'm sure s/he could recoup at least some of the price by offering the service to sdiyers...
>
>  
>


From gilwein at walla.co.il  Fri Oct 24 20:15:40 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:15:40 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Kawai SX-210 EPROM code 
Message-ID: <200310241815.h9OIFe524640@omail1.walla.co.il>


Hi all,

do you have any idea where can I get the code for the Kawai SX-210 EPROM ?

I got the feeling it's corrupt...

Thanks.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From trypannon at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 24 21:00:50 2003
From: trypannon at hotmail.com (Steve Begin)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:00:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [OT]Midi as PC input device
Message-ID: <Law12-OE62ec0yL3CJK0000a143@hotmail.com>

It looks like it's beyond me. Don't worry too much about it, it's not of
dire importance.
thanks for the help!
-Steve


----- Original Message -----
From: "yasi perera" <pi0say at hotmail.com>
To: <trypannon at hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] [OT]Midi as PC input device


> Hi Steve,
>
> >I got Pd, but I think it may be beyond me.  Would I have to program some
C
> >code to do what I'm trying to do?
>
> I'm not sure, but you could start by using the resources already availible
in Pd and seeing how far you get.. "notein" or "ctlin" objects (depending on
which types of MIDI messages you want to look at) to turn the MIDI data into
numbers Pd can manipulate; "sel" objects to turn specific note numbers,
velocities, cc's, etc. into bangs; message boxes to turn the bangs into
specific letters, numbers, etc.; and a "textfile" object to record your
"keystrokes" for use outside of Pd.
>
> also occurs to me that the "netsend" object could be used..
>
> I'll think about it a little more
>
> yasi perera
>
>


From sbernardi at comcast.net  Fri Oct 24 23:28:21 2003
From: sbernardi at comcast.net (Scott Bernardi)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:28:21 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Yet another module: Dual Phaser
Message-ID: <3F999975.5020706@comcast.net>

Dual phaser module with two independent 4 pole allpass filters that can 
be connected in series or parallel.  The core allpass filter design is 
based on Jorgen Bergfor's voltage controlled phaser 
(http://hem.bredband.net/bersyn/vcp.htm), but I put them in my own 
configuration.  With sound samples.
http://home.comcast.net/~sbernardi/elec/og2/og3_dualphaser.html

-- 
Scott Bernardi
sbernardi at comcast.net




From aurastar at cox.net  Sat Oct 25 00:46:34 2003
From: aurastar at cox.net (DTK)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:46:34 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Adding CV jacks to an MG-1...
Message-ID: <002c01c39a80$b138ffe0$f5cb0d44@hr.cox.net>

Hi all... As the subject suggests, I'd like to add CV inputs to my MG-1 in
order to control the filter cutoff and some other parameters.

Does anyone have any information on a mod like this specific to the MG-1?

Point me in the right direction, please :)

Thanks

D


From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Sat Oct 25 05:34:30 2003
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:34:30 EDT
Subject: [sdiy] Wanted: Moog Taurus II pedals (Pedals ONLY)
Message-ID: <9d.4026df3c.2ccb4946@aol.com>

Hello AH and DIY folk,

I'm looking for a set of pedals from a Moog Taurus II.  I don't need (or 
want) the synthesizer module, just the pedals.  I'm going to build some kind of 
MIDI pedal controller, and I'm attracted to the Taurus II's slightly longer 
pedal board.  Please let me know what you've got, and how much you think you want 
for it.  I'm not very concerned with the condition of the unit, but it sould 
at least be in decent mechanical shape (no broken or missing pedals, etc).

I'd also be interested in one of the 17-pedal Elka pedal boards, or one of 
the newer Studiologic (Fatar) boards (the longer one, not the 1-octave one), or 
any other pedal boards that are longer than one octave.  No 25-pedal organ 
pedal sets, though - I need to be able to get it into my compact car for gigs!

Best regards,
Michael Bacich


From jhaible at debitel.net  Sun Oct 26 01:51:04 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 01:51:04 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature signals ?
Message-ID: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>

This is just an idea at the moment, and I wonder if this
would work. It's about making DX-7-like Phase Modulation
(often misnamed as Frequency Modulation) with analogue
oscillators. From earlier discussions on synth-diy I know that
FM of a VCO is easy, thru-zero FM is difficult but possible,
but PM - easy in digital - would be most demanding on an
analogue VCO.

But what about using a quadrature signal? Either using a
quadrature VCO, or simply running an ordinary VCO thru
a dome filter such as used in a Frequency Shifter. Then you
have sin(wt) and cos(wt).

Now there will always be factors A(phi) and B(phi) such that
sin(wt + phi) = A * sin(wt) + B * cos(wt).
So we can modulate phi indirectly by modulating A and B
with the right function, can't we?

We could run the outputs of the Dome Filter thru two
multipliers (ring modulators) and sum the two products,
just as a Frequency Shifter would do. But instead
of using a Quadrature Oscillator for the modulation,
we could derive both, A and B, from a CV input.

The difference to ordinary frequency shifting is that
*there* (FS) you always go round the circle (0 ... 360deg),
while this PM scheme would allow both a smaller or a larger
range, performing partial circles depending on the
modulator level  modulator envelope.

I haven't done the maths for this, but probably A and B
would be sin and cos functions of an arbitrary CV input
signal to get the desired result.
If so, all we need is a sin(x) and cos(x) nonlinear network
which works over a certain number of periods.
I think I remember from earlier discussions that there are chips
that do this, and of course such a thing could also be implemented
with diode networks etc.

Two questions:

(1) Will this work at all? Is this a true emulation of PM a la DX-7 ?

(2) How many periods do we need for the nonlinear network?
     (a) How many periods does a DX7 with maximum modulation depth
           cover? And, if this number is too high,
     (b) How many periods is the maximum PM depth in a typical "DX Piano"
           sound on the DX7 ?

I have a feeling that it can't be so easy, but at the moment (early morning,
time to go to bed) I can't see an error. Too tired to go and consult the
Bronstein. Someone tell me if this will work, please.

JH.



From don at till.com  Sun Oct 26 02:13:07 2003
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: 25 Oct 2003 18:13:07 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature signals ?
In-Reply-To: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
	(jhaible@debitel.net)
References: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <m2he1wer8c.fsf@till.com>

   > From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
   > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 01:51:04 +0200
   > 
   > This is just an idea at the moment, and I wonder if this
   > would work. It's about making DX-7-like Phase Modulation
   > (often misnamed as Frequency Modulation) with analogue
   > oscillators. From earlier discussions on synth-diy I know that
   > FM of a VCO is easy, thru-zero FM is difficult but possible,
   > but PM - easy in digital - would be most demanding on an
   > analogue VCO.

Hi JH!

Yes, this is absolutely right.

   > But what about using a quadrature signal? 

It's possible to perform voltage controlled phase shift with my
Quadrature Trapezoid VCO.  That was, in fact, one of the goals of the
project, and I hint about it in the article.

I have a circuit to do this worked out, but it hasn't been tested yet.
It's intended to perform graceful Quadrature Trapezoid phase shifting
over 16 cycles.  The circuit is somewhat complex and took a long time
to design.  I'll publish it as soon as I know it works.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com


From jhaible at debitel.net  Sun Oct 26 09:50:42 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:50:42 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature signals ?
References: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net> <m2he1wer8c.fsf@till.com>
Message-ID: <000601c39bbc$2a1e6da0$9176b9d9@debitel.net>

Hi Don,

looking forward to see your circuit!

But the method I suggested with the dome filter, after sleeping a few hours
it doesn't look that good anymore.
With that A sin + B cos equation I can get any _wrapped_  phase, but not
any _absolute_ phase, so it's probably limited to delta_phi < Pi.

JH.

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Don Tillman <don at till.com>
An: jhaible <jhaible at debitel.net>
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Oktober 2003 02:13
Betreff: Re: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature
signals ?


>    > From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
>    > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 01:51:04 +0200
>    >
>    > This is just an idea at the moment, and I wonder if this
>    > would work. It's about making DX-7-like Phase Modulation
>    > (often misnamed as Frequency Modulation) with analogue
>    > oscillators. From earlier discussions on synth-diy I know that
>    > FM of a VCO is easy, thru-zero FM is difficult but possible,
>    > but PM - easy in digital - would be most demanding on an
>    > analogue VCO.
>
> Hi JH!
>
> Yes, this is absolutely right.
>
>    > But what about using a quadrature signal?
>
> It's possible to perform voltage controlled phase shift with my
> Quadrature Trapezoid VCO.  That was, in fact, one of the goals of the
> project, and I hint about it in the article.
>
> I have a circuit to do this worked out, but it hasn't been tested yet.
> It's intended to perform graceful Quadrature Trapezoid phase shifting
> over 16 cycles.  The circuit is somewhat complex and took a long time
> to design.  I'll publish it as soon as I know it works.
>
>   -- Don
>
> --
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don at till.com
> http://www.till.com
>
>



From modular at go2.pl  Sun Oct 26 10:11:46 2003
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:11:46 +0100
Subject: Odp: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature signals ?
References: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c39ba1$31f84520$9e2010ac@unregistered.futuro.pl>

I have a strong feeling that PM would be eassy in analog, maybe easier
than thru-0-FM. Simply use wave multiplier from Ken Stone, or any
similar circuit. It's straight phase modulation of saw wave.
Then saw-2-tri, tr-2-sin and we have PM sines. And they are locked
in phase thru entire CV range. It has linear phase/V relation and
not limited to 360 deg, as it simply wraps.
Am I missing something (beside waveform purity after saw-2-sin
conversion)?

Roman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: jhaible <jhaible at debitel.net>
To: diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 12:51 AM
Subject: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature signals ?


> This is just an idea at the moment, and I wonder if this
> would work. It's about making DX-7-like Phase Modulation
> (often misnamed as Frequency Modulation) with analogue
> oscillators. From earlier discussions on synth-diy I know that
> FM of a VCO is easy, thru-zero FM is difficult but possible,
> but PM - easy in digital - would be most demanding on an
> analogue VCO.
> 
> But what about using a quadrature signal? Either using a
> quadrature VCO, or simply running an ordinary VCO thru
> a dome filter such as used in a Frequency Shifter. Then you
> have sin(wt) and cos(wt).
> 
> Now there will always be factors A(phi) and B(phi) such that
> sin(wt + phi) = A * sin(wt) + B * cos(wt).
> So we can modulate phi indirectly by modulating A and B
> with the right function, can't we?
> 
> We could run the outputs of the Dome Filter thru two
> multipliers (ring modulators) and sum the two products,
> just as a Frequency Shifter would do. But instead
> of using a Quadrature Oscillator for the modulation,
> we could derive both, A and B, from a CV input.
> 
> The difference to ordinary frequency shifting is that
> *there* (FS) you always go round the circle (0 ... 360deg),
> while this PM scheme would allow both a smaller or a larger
> range, performing partial circles depending on the
> modulator level  modulator envelope.
> 
> I haven't done the maths for this, but probably A and B
> would be sin and cos functions of an arbitrary CV input
> signal to get the desired result.
> If so, all we need is a sin(x) and cos(x) nonlinear network
> which works over a certain number of periods.
> I think I remember from earlier discussions that there are chips
> that do this, and of course such a thing could also be implemented
> with diode networks etc.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> (1) Will this work at all? Is this a true emulation of PM a la DX-7 ?
> 
> (2) How many periods do we need for the nonlinear network?
>      (a) How many periods does a DX7 with maximum modulation depth
>            cover? And, if this number is too high,
>      (b) How many periods is the maximum PM depth in a typical "DX Piano"
>            sound on the DX7 ?
> 
> I have a feeling that it can't be so easy, but at the moment (early morning,
> time to go to bed) I can't see an error. Too tired to go and consult the
> Bronstein. Someone tell me if this will work, please.
> 
> JH.
> 
> 


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Sun Oct 26 11:13:05 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:13:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature
 signals ?
In-Reply-To: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
References: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <3F9B9E31.4060603@uni-bonn.de>

Hi J?rgen,

> Now there will always be factors A(phi) and B(phi) such that
> sin(wt + phi) = A * sin(wt) + B * cos(wt).
> So we can modulate phi indirectly by modulating A and B
> with the right function, can't we?

IIRC this would be sin(wt + phi) = cos(phi) * sin(wt) + sin(phi) * cos(wt).

> I haven't done the maths for this, but probably A and B
> would be sin and cos functions of an arbitrary CV input
> signal to get the desired result.
> If so, all we need is a sin(x) and cos(x) nonlinear network
> which works over a certain number of periods.
> I think I remember from earlier discussions that there are chips
> that do this, and of course such a thing could also be implemented
> with diode networks etc.

Well such a sinewave network lets you already do phase modulation.

Suppose you have one for sin(x) with wide enough range, you would feed
it with a sawtooth which gives you a linear term, i.e. the wt in the
argument. Add the phi term directly to that and you would be there.
Admittedly there would be a discontinuity then.

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159





From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Oct 26 13:39:48 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:39:48 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature
 signals ?
In-Reply-To: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
References: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <20031026.133948.62347492.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
Subject: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadrature signals ?
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 01:51:04 +0200

Hi J?rgen,

> This is just an idea at the moment, and I wonder if this
> would work. It's about making DX-7-like Phase Modulation
> (often misnamed as Frequency Modulation) with analogue
> oscillators. From earlier discussions on synth-diy I know that
> FM of a VCO is easy, thru-zero FM is difficult but possible,
> but PM - easy in digital - would be most demanding on an
> analogue VCO.

This is where I chime in and start to question your statement. In essense I
think your saying "it's not reasnoble" here, and that is what I think is wrong,
or at least want a discussion on. You see, I too have been thinking about
phase modulation. Of all the variants I have come up with there is essentially
two classes, the core modulation and the post core modulation. The difference
lie in that in the first you actually modulate (directly or indirectly) the
core such that the output signal of the core is modulated while the later
simply let the core remains unmodulated (by phase modulations) and
post-processing allows for phase modulation.

If you look on my webpages you might find (OK, I'll point you there) an idea
for a Sawtooth Phase Shifter. http://home.swipnet.se/cfmd/synths/schematics/
It is a phase shifter of the post-core kind and provides a 0-360 degree
(could be viewed as +/- 180 degrees) phase modulation. You might also mount
multiple of these after each other in order to acheive greater depths.
It is (admittadly) not one of the greatest solutions and experience show that
the speed of the op-amps is among the things which is important for it to cause
a small wave-distorsion problem. However, I think I walk free since I only
presented it as a "rougth idea". I have also been thinking about a more
elaborate variant which will do deeper modulations straight away. One of the
benefits of this solution is that it will perform phase modulation down to DC.
Later in my expos? you will learn that no all solutions will be able to do
that. For most people, I think one or a few steps of this one (if shaped up)
will cut it. Furth, some might think that the waveform distorsion add a little
character, and if that's the case I am happy for them.

Another interesting "quickie" for letting a standard oscillator core do phase
modulation is to use the frequency modulation input. In order to do phase
modulation that way one needs to pre-process the PM signal to become a FM
signal. Since frequency is the derivate of phase, we need to derivate our
phase modulation signal, which is easilly done with an opamp, a resistor and a
cap. Another op-amp is needed before the derivate setup in order to make the
source impedance isolated from the cap of the derivate design. This design has
the benefit of being able to handle large phase modulations, but it is in
practical speed limited since the frequency modulation has peak limits to the
modulation it can provide. This limit might not be a problem, but people
wanting deep and high-frequency phase modulations (as some DX-7 style patches
would require) would maybe feel limited by this. Also, this modulation would be
scaled by the CV input, since the frequency modulation input is almost always
into the expo-setup which provides the scaling. Another limit lies in that
deep frequency modulation is not performed by a standard core since it can't
reverse. Another flaw with this method is that it in practice can't do phase
modulations down to DC, since the derivate setup flattens out at some point and
the modulation becomes a frequency modulation instead.

In order to get a unscaled phase modulation, the derivate signal must be
applied into the CCO directly, in parallel with the normal expo, and by that
doing a current summation, so it needs a voltage-to-current conversion. A
resistor might do the trick and a DC-offset trimmer to handle any DC offsets.
This solution still has the problem with limited modulation depth, since it
can't reverse direction. It also has the same problem with phase modulations
down to DC.

In order to get around the depth of modulation we need a oscillator core which
can reverse itself. This is when we replace the normal sawtooth CCO core with
a triangle CCO core. It also needs the power to handle the reversal due to
phase (and frequency) modulation so deep that the incomming current becomes
negative, i.e. when the modulation pulls the oscillator in the other direction,
not to be confused with then the core chooses to change direction in its
waveshaping (may it be triangle or sawtooth). There are many intersting
topologies to discuss here, and somewhere I have a slightly more elaborate one
lying around the house.

Now, an improvement of the situation would allow itself by using the post-
processing trick to deal with the low frequency modulations and let the core
modulation deal with the high frequency stuff. However, then again we would
run into the situation that the bulk modulation (high phase offset) would end
up in the post-processing and all the fiddeling with the core is unnecessary.
Naturally I have a solution for that aswell somewhere, but I don't recall all
the details right now.

Another way to look at it is to integrate the post-processing trick with the
core and let the low-freq components of the modulation directly hit the CCO
core. This is actually not a very strange idea, since the CCO core is
essentially a phase accumulator, so why not do the phase modulation straightly
in there? What we need to do now is that we take our reversable CCO core and
after the integrator simply add the phase modulation CV with the output of the
core. The output of that summation would then be the output signal and the
input signal to the reset setup. The amplitude allowed for the waveform needs
to be reduced if large modulations is needed. The reason is that now is the
integrator capacitor also holding the phase-state between cycles in order to
compensate for the phase offset on the phase CV input. The end result will be
that the output signal does not experience such offset and the reset curcuit
will swap directions as needed to keep the output in the right direction.
The details of the reset curcuit naturally needs a tosser, since now the state
is a little more complex and the output signal may clip both the upper and
lower threashold instead of only one (which the traditional schmitt trigger
assumes). That is again a solveable problem. There is still a leakage problem
in that the integrator cap still will do a tiny leakage of the DC component it
has, but that is now inside a control-loop so it should be compensated for, but
then I ask myself what the end result of that compensation is. Another
pen-and-paper problem I guess.

Anyway, I think there are many ways to acheive phase modulation within the
scope off a standard oscillator but with various modifications. I don't think
it should be "called off" just yeat as I assumes that you are concluding.

> But what about using a quadrature signal? Either using a
> quadrature VCO, or simply running an ordinary VCO thru
> a dome filter such as used in a Frequency Shifter. Then you
> have sin(wt) and cos(wt).
> 
> Now there will always be factors A(phi) and B(phi) such that
> sin(wt + phi) = A * sin(wt) + B * cos(wt).
> So we can modulate phi indirectly by modulating A and B
> with the right function, can't we?
> 
> We could run the outputs of the Dome Filter thru two
> multipliers (ring modulators) and sum the two products,
> just as a Frequency Shifter would do. But instead
> of using a Quadrature Oscillator for the modulation,
> we could derive both, A and B, from a CV input.
> 
> The difference to ordinary frequency shifting is that
> *there* (FS) you always go round the circle (0 ... 360deg),
> while this PM scheme would allow both a smaller or a larger
> range, performing partial circles depending on the
> modulator level  modulator envelope.
> 
> I haven't done the maths for this, but probably A and B
> would be sin and cos functions of an arbitrary CV input
> signal to get the desired result.
> If so, all we need is a sin(x) and cos(x) nonlinear network
> which works over a certain number of periods.
> I think I remember from earlier discussions that there are chips
> that do this, and of course such a thing could also be implemented
> with diode networks etc.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> (1) Will this work at all? Is this a true emulation of PM a la DX-7 ?

No.

I'll start off by killing the dome-filter variant. When you phase-shift a
waveform, the overtones experience their multiple in phase-shift, so a 45
degree phase shift of the waveform make the first tone shift 45 degrees, the
second 90, the third 135 degrees and so on. Now, if you are only out for sine
modulation (assuming your DX-7 preference here) that would not be a problem
since you only deals with sines, so for sines you would be home free - NOT.
The dome filter sets another limit, the frequency responce of it is a bandpass
one. You need to replace your dome-filter with something which goes all the way
down, or sufficiently down. In the end I think it is a no here.

Another low-freq problems creeps into the calculation, namely that of the
"derivation". In essence I think you again depend on a derivation of the phase
CV with this setup, since it is a frequency-based solution. This derivation
setup problem we already had in the core pre-processing above. You run into the
same limit but with a possibly complexer design.

I might as well state it here (you should also interprent what I written so far
in that light) that for the most part I think of phase modulation outside of
the DX-7 limitations, i.e. limitations in waveform.

Anyway, I will spend some more cycles on your approach to see what's wrong and
what's right.

> (2) How many periods do we need for the nonlinear network?
>      (a) How many periods does a DX7 with maximum modulation depth
>            cover? And, if this number is too high,
>      (b) How many periods is the maximum PM depth in a typical "DX Piano"
>            sound on the DX7 ?

In digital you can overflow and underflow the phase such that the number of
cycles becomes of no interest. To some degree does the last of my proposals
behave in a similar fashion as the DX7. The DX7 core is nothing put a pure
phase accumulator and the phase modulations occur prior to the waveshaping.
I think a similar design is the best way to acheive the result.

> I have a feeling that it can't be so easy, but at the moment (early morning,
> time to go to bed) I can't see an error. Too tired to go and consult the
> Bronstein. Someone tell me if this will work, please.

Well, I am not sure if I have convinced you, I am not even sure I am convinced
myself, but let's investigate that and see what we find out. I haven't spent
any quality cycles on how to do an analog variant of the DX7, probably because
I have a DX7. However, I do appreachiate the thought that "it should be
possible".

So, when will we have an analog DX-7 clone? ;O)

Cheers,
Magnus


From ijfritz at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 26 17:19:55 2003
From: ijfritz at earthlink.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:19:55 -0700
Subject: Odp: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using
  quadrature signals ?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c39ba1$31f84520$9e2010ac@unregistered.futuro.pl>
References: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031026083029.00a8c4f8@127.0.0.1>

Great idea, Roman.  I just patched this up and as far as I can see it works 
fine.  I used my version of the Electronotes MPWA, which is actually two 
modules --  a bank of LFOs and a bank of sawtooth phase shifters with 
saw-to-tri converters.  I used a sine modulating signal into one of the 
shifters and the the tri output (no tri-to-saw conversion, 
yet).  Unfortunately, all the shifters are mixed into one output, so I 
can't try cascading at this point.

The only issue I see for accurate sin-sin phase modulation is accurate 
waveforms, not only for the converters (as you mentioned) but for the saw 
phase shifter itself, which has some semi-critical level adjustments and 
some switching transients.

But just as it stands the setup makes a great waveshaper.  I have been 
playing with using two VCOs (either synced or not) to drive the two 
inputs.  Very interesting.  This could be a great dynamic waveshaper module 
as well as a path towards phase modulation synthesis.  One nice feature as 
a waveshaper is that it is "filter-like", i.e., at zero modulation level 
the output automatically has low harmonic content (tri or sine).

   Ian



At 02:11 AM 10/26/2003, Roman Sowa wrote:
>I have a strong feeling that PM would be eassy in analog, maybe easier
>than thru-0-FM. Simply use wave multiplier from Ken Stone, or any
>similar circuit. It's straight phase modulation of saw wave.
>Then saw-2-tri, tr-2-sin and we have PM sines. And they are locked
>in phase thru entire CV range. It has linear phase/V relation and
>not limited to 360 deg, as it simply wraps.
>Am I missing something (beside waveform purity after saw-2-sin
>conversion)?
>
>Roman


From djarum11 at mindspring.com  Sun Oct 26 17:27:23 2003
From: djarum11 at mindspring.com (mark s)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:27:23 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] filter help
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20031026112551.01a8a680@pop.mindspring.com>

greetings everyone,

i am trying to build an active, tunable HPF (2 pole is fine) using no more 
than one opamp stage and one section of a pot (i.e. not a dual-ganged pot). 
also, it should have good phase characteristics and a small parts count.

it seems to me, from my limited perspective, that a Bessell requires a 
dual-ganged pot for changing the frequency, so i have ruled it out. can 
anyone enlighten me or point me in a direction ?

thanks!

mark scetta 


From buchi at takeonetech.de  Sun Oct 26 17:36:38 2003
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:36:38 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
Message-ID: <k0unpv8dd9u22blepob71c8gkdcp7f9tl4@4ax.com>


Hello friends,

i could run up the wall and bang my head against it !
Since 2 days now i am trying to make a simple programmable
oscillator circuit to drive a wavetable in an EPROM with it.

The idea is: I take a high frequency oscillator (100 MHz in the final
poject, 16 MHz in my bench project so i can see the signals on my
Oscope).
Tis is followed by 4 74LS163 (later 74F163) asynchromous counters,
the lowest bit of the last one being used as an output.
Free-running, this will divide the oscillator frequency by 65536, also
give roughly 244 Hz.
So far, this works.

But, i want to be able to program other frequencies.
Now, i set the "programming" inputs of the 74LS163 (pins 3...6)
via a bank of DIP switches and pullup resistors to some value.
I want to take the Overflow (pin 15) on it?s falling edge to cause that
the values from the DIP switches will be written to the ?163, so they
will count up from that value instead run until 0 and over.
(Say, i want 128 KHz, so i will have to divide the 16 MHz down by a factor
of 125, so i will set the switches to 65536-126 = 65411. I would expect the
circuit to overflow, then set back to 65411 and count upwards to the next
overflow, and so on)

Looking at the last counter?s output, a signal is there at pin 15.
I feed that into an 47121 Monoflop to stretch out the pulse width to some
length and get a defined pulse from the low-going edge of the signal.
This works, too. I get a fine 1 uS negative pulse every time the input
overflow goes down to L state.

Now, i feed this pulse to all pin "9" of the 74LS163, but nothing happens.
Still 244 Hz at the output, but a bit "wiggly" on the scope.
If i tie the pin "9" hard to +5V, the 244 Hz is rock stable.
If i tie pin 9 to GND, the output halts, and all counter outputs show the values that
i have dialed in with the DIP switches.
So far, everything works, all IC?s have proper power and are functioning OK.

But why the heck does it never count up from those programmed values ?
Am i overlooking something here ? If Yes, WHAT ????

All IC?s are properly decoupled with a separate 47 nF ceramic cap, +5V is OK,
every input and output triple-checked.

74LS163 pin connections:
01 - +5V (/Clear)
02 - Oscillator on the 1st chip, to Pin 15 of the foregoing one on the next chips (Clock)
03 - Pullup 33K to +5V, DIP switch to GND (Data bit 0)
04 - Pullup 33K to +5V, DIP switch to GND (Data bit 1)
05 - Pullup 33K to +5V, DIP switch to GND (Data bit 2)
06 - Pullup 33K to +5V, DIP switch to GND (Data bit 3)
07 - +5V (Enable)
08 - GND (Power GND)
09 - connected together with all `163, and then controlled from the monostable /Q output (/Set)
10 - +5V (Enable)
11 - unused (Output bit 0)
12 - unused (Output bit 1)
13 - unused (Output bit 2)
14 - unused (Output bit 3)
15 - goes to the next `163 pin 2. Last `163 uses this to drive the monostable (Overflow)
16 - +5V (Power Vcc)

74121 pin connections:
01 - Drives the Pin9 of the ?163 (/Q Output)
02 - n.c.
03 - +5V (A1 input)
04 - Overflow from the last ?163 (A2 input)
05 - +5V (B input)
06 - unused (Output Q)
07 - GND (power GND)
08 - n.c.
09 - unused (internal R)
10 - capacitor to pin 11 33 nF (later 100 pF)
11 - resistor to +5V 2.2K
12 - n.c.
13 - n.c.
14 - +5V (Power Vcc)


Please !!!
What am i doing wrong here ??
I am sooooo confused now...

Thank you all !



-Michael Buchstaller


From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Oct 26 18:08:19 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:08:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
In-Reply-To: <k0unpv8dd9u22blepob71c8gkdcp7f9tl4@4ax.com>
References: <k0unpv8dd9u22blepob71c8gkdcp7f9tl4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20031026.180819.88476624.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: Michael Buchstaller <buchi at takeonetech.de>
Subject: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:36:38 +0100

> Hello friends,

Dear Michael,

> i could run up the wall and bang my head against it !
> Since 2 days now i am trying to make a simple programmable
> oscillator circuit to drive a wavetable in an EPROM with it.
> 
> The idea is: I take a high frequency oscillator (100 MHz in the final
> poject, 16 MHz in my bench project so i can see the signals on my
> Oscope).
> Tis is followed by 4 74LS163 (later 74F163) asynchromous counters,
> the lowest bit of the last one being used as an output.
> Free-running, this will divide the oscillator frequency by 65536, also
> give roughly 244 Hz.
> So far, this works.
> 
> But, i want to be able to program other frequencies.
> Now, i set the "programming" inputs of the 74LS163 (pins 3...6)
> via a bank of DIP switches and pullup resistors to some value.
> I want to take the Overflow (pin 15) on it?s falling edge to cause that
> the values from the DIP switches will be written to the ?163, so they
> will count up from that value instead run until 0 and over.
> (Say, i want 128 KHz, so i will have to divide the 16 MHz down by a factor
> of 125, so i will set the switches to 65536-126 = 65411. I would expect the
> circuit to overflow, then set back to 65411 and count upwards to the next
> overflow, and so on)
> 
> Looking at the last counter?s output, a signal is there at pin 15.
> I feed that into an 47121 Monoflop to stretch out the pulse width to some
> length and get a defined pulse from the low-going edge of the signal.
> This works, too. I get a fine 1 uS negative pulse every time the input
> overflow goes down to L state.
> 
> Now, i feed this pulse to all pin "9" of the 74LS163, but nothing happens.

Now, I took the oppertunity to bring out my Don Lancaster "TTL Cookbook".
I never really use it, but I got it (and it's CMOS equivalent) for old memories
sake. One of the things Don does is spend time on divide-by-N curcuits. He does
not use the '163s but he does treat the '161s (it is the synchronous or
asynchronous clear signals which differ, but for the moment we should hook it
to +5V anyway). He does basically what you do, but with the exception that the
carry out is sent through a inverter ('04) before feeding the LOAD inputs.

So, try toss your 47121 out of the loop (I don't see why it should be needed)
and simply replace it by a simple inverter.

Cheers,
Magnus


From jhaible at debitel.net  Sun Oct 26 19:52:48 2003
From: jhaible at debitel.net (jhaible)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:52:48 +0100
Subject: FS-2 (was: Re: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadraturesignals ?)
References: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net> <20031026.133948.62347492.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <002e01c39bf2$70627f00$b576b9d9@debitel.net>

Hi Magnus,

> This is where I chime in and start to question your statement. In essense
I
> think your saying "it's not reasnoble" here, and that is what I think is
wrong,

You're probably right. It wasn't my intention to disqualify any method
of making analogue PM - I just remembered a recent discussion on synthdiy
where my concluding impression was than no one had a really good solution.
Now I know Don, and you too, are working on it - so much the better!
I'm looking forward to see what comes out of it.

> So, when will we have an analog DX-7 clone? ;O)

This, and the entire PM matter is not in my own focus right now.
The whole idea came from my work on a new Frequency Shifter, and
unlike my fist one, where all is hard-wired, I want to make an open system
where you can patch everything to everything, and I want to find out
if that PM application would be worth to implement in form of a sin / cos
network for arbitrary CVs rather than quadrature VCO only.

BTW, I've finally found a reason to really have 2 Dome filters, with the
possibility
to have an external (non-quadrature) VCO replacing the internal QVCO!
The downside, which I often said, is that the second dome filter does not
allow
near-zero shifts. BUT an external (or internal, but non-quadrature), well
tracking
VCO + 2nd dome filter allows precise V/Oct control of the shift frequency,
und thus perfectly harmonic playing with altered spectra!

So instead of building a "super thru-zero-quadrature" VCO that also tracks
precisely, I rather use *two* VCOs, one for thru-zero and ultra-slow
modulation, and another one, with precise tracking, and a tracking VCF
for sine purity, for the harmonic stuff.
I might just use a MOTM VCO + 440VCF, the two dome filters and two
multipliers
to get precise, "harmonic" frequency shifting - and use a simple QVCO for
the
slow phaser-like stuff.

Sorry that the thread is going into a different direction for me - but this
is the
background why I was asking - to find another application of the thing
I'm just building, and keeping it "open" for such applications.

The other, actual PM thread, is very interesting as well. Yes, Sines run
thru
Wavefolders certainly have that "Bessel spectrum" sound of FM synthesizers.
I noticed this before, but I never thought that it could be actual PM that's
going on there. So that postprocessing - PM stuff that you, and Roman,
mentioned
is very interesting as well!

JH.




From t.hogers at home.nl  Sun Oct 26 21:00:47 2003
From: t.hogers at home.nl (Theo)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:00:47 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] filter help
References: <4.2.0.58.20031026112551.01a8a680@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c39bfb$d9518200$d37478d4@ensch1.ov.home.nl>

Hi Mark,

Your question seems to be about filter topologies or "how to connect
components to get a filter".
http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1762/ln/en
BTW What you seek is not there.

Mr Bessel, Butterworth, Chebyshev and fellow filter types are about the
component values and resulting behavior of your filter.
http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/733/ln/en

Maybe a 6dB filter is good enough for your application?
There might be other solutions.
What is the other half of the stereo pot doing?
Maybe its possible to free it up.

Cheers,
Theo



----- Original Message -----
From: mark s <djarum11 at mindspring.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 5:27 PM
Subject: [sdiy] filter help


> greetings everyone,
>
> i am trying to build an active, tunable HPF (2 pole is fine) using no more
> than one opamp stage and one section of a pot (i.e. not a dual-ganged
pot).
> also, it should have good phase characteristics and a small parts count.
>
> it seems to me, from my limited perspective, that a Bessell requires a
> dual-ganged pot for changing the frequency, so i have ruled it out. can
> anyone enlighten me or point me in a direction ?
>
> thanks!
>
> mark scetta


From buchi at takeonetech.de  Sun Oct 26 21:54:35 2003
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:54:35 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
In-Reply-To: <20031026.180819.88476624.cfmd@swipnet.se>
References: <k0unpv8dd9u22blepob71c8gkdcp7f9tl4@4ax.com> <20031026.180819.88476624.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <a4dopv0ur469tl6co6u0m75k8lkqi3vrf1@4ax.com>


>So, try toss your 47121 out of the loop (I don't see why it should be needed)
>and simply replace it by a simple inverter.


Somewhere in the rest of the board i have an unused gate on an LS00 that i
could use for that purpose. But it did not work, thus i added the ?121 to get the
"falling-egde trigger" instead of a constant level.

Anyway, it seems that for some reason i cannot get the counters to load the programming
inputs, at least not reliably.
If i tie the "Set" input to +5V, the output (and all outputs of any counter) has a rock stable square
wave on it. If i use the "set" input as intended, the frequencies do not change, but the squarewaves
look somewhat "wiggly" on the scope, as if their frequency would wobble a little bit.
Could that be some kinf of a hint ?

TIA !



-Michael Buchstaller


From cfmd at swipnet.se  Sun Oct 26 22:04:04 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:04:04 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [sdiy] Re: FS-2
In-Reply-To: <002e01c39bf2$70627f00$b576b9d9@debitel.net>
References: <000701c39b52$ee047940$617fb9d9@debitel.net>
	<20031026.133948.62347492.cfmd@swipnet.se>
	<002e01c39bf2$70627f00$b576b9d9@debitel.net>
Message-ID: <20031026.220404.69225526.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "jhaible" <jhaible at debitel.net>
Subject: FS-2 (was: Re: [sdiy] analogue DX-7-style Phase Modulation using quadraturesignals ?)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:52:48 +0100

> Hi Magnus,

Hi J?rgen,

> > This is where I chime in and start to question your statement. In essense I
> > think your saying "it's not reasnoble" here, and that is what I think is
> > wrong,
> 
> You're probably right. It wasn't my intention to disqualify any method
> of making analogue PM - I just remembered a recent discussion on synthdiy
> where my concluding impression was than no one had a really good solution.

Ah! Right. I wanted to make a fairly quickly "brain dump" to give an overview
of the many possible solutions that I have come up with. I'm sure there are
many more. I brougth them up to make an few counter-examples.

> Now I know Don, and you too, are working on it - so much the better!
> I'm looking forward to see what comes out of it.

Well, I think we have two different topics here:

1) Generic phase modulation (i.e. PM on normal/generic waveforms)
2) Sine/Cosine phase modulation

The first one is what I have been concentrating on, while the later is what you
and Don seems to have been working on.

> > So, when will we have an analog DX-7 clone? ;O)
> 
> This, and the entire PM matter is not in my own focus right now.
> The whole idea came from my work on a new Frequency Shifter, and
> unlike my fist one, where all is hard-wired, I want to make an open system
> where you can patch everything to everything, and I want to find out
> if that PM application would be worth to implement in form of a sin / cos
> network for arbitrary CVs rather than quadrature VCO only.

Hmm... just WHY I am thinking about the Serge FS? I used the oscillator from
that one to do the modulation on the phaser module (I needed a ssssslllloooowww
wave).

> BTW, I've finally found a reason to really have 2 Dome filters, with the
> possibility
> to have an external (non-quadrature) VCO replacing the internal QVCO!

Right.

> The downside, which I often said, is that the second dome filter does not
> allow near-zero shifts. BUT an external (or internal, but non-quadrature),
> well tracking VCO + 2nd dome filter allows precise V/Oct control of the shift
> frequency, und thus perfectly harmonic playing with altered spectra!

Interesting. Yes, I never rulled out this alternative myself.

Oh, you've just reminded me that I don't have a frequency-shifter!!! Yeat I
seems to spend so much time on learning about them. HMMM!!!!! Is this "know
your enemy"?

> So instead of building a "super thru-zero-quadrature" VCO that also tracks
> precisely, I rather use *two* VCOs, one for thru-zero and ultra-slow
> modulation, and another one, with precise tracking, and a tracking VCF
> for sine purity, for the harmonic stuff.

Maybe keep them locked in the intermediary region and let the user get the
best performance depending on where he/she put is working for the moment?
That is, naturally, if the control interfaces of the VCOs is compatible
enought, else it breaks up. Just an idea...

> I might just use a MOTM VCO + 440VCF, the two dome filters and two
> multipliers to get precise, "harmonic" frequency shifting - and use a simple
> QVCO for the slow phaser-like stuff.

Right... but phase modulation behaves differently... so it might still be of
interest at higher frequencies.

> Sorry that the thread is going into a different direction for me - but this
> is the background why I was asking - to find another application of the thing
> I'm just building, and keeping it "open" for such applications.

Actually, I think that this thinking is a good one and as I stated above, it is
really one of two different threads. I intend to follow both of them with
interst I migth add.

> The other, actual PM thread, is very interesting as well. Yes, Sines run thru
> Wavefolders certainly have that "Bessel spectrum" sound of FM synthesizers.
> I noticed this before, but I never thought that it could be actual PM that's
> going on there. So that postprocessing - PM stuff that you, and Roman,
> mentioned is very interesting as well!

Indeed! You see, I've long known that PM is quite interesting and if you think
of it, you know that I spent some time to explain other properties in form of
phase modulation. This both in analysis and modulation. Figuring out how to do
various forms of phase modulations have those come as a natural thing.

For instance, PWM introduces PM in addition to the pure PWM stuff. We know how
to do PWM with (sawtooth based) and without (triangle based) but what if we
want the amount tweakable or possibly even independent of the actual PWM
waveform? What if we want it without the PWM to start with?

To some degree I think that is ortogonal with more elaborate variants of
frequency shiftings. I think it is natural that you dig where you stand, which
in this case is in the frequency shifter end of things. I have yeat to spend
any time over those specific problems.

Cheers,
Magnus


From sasami at hotkey.net.au  Sun Oct 26 23:19:31 2003
From: sasami at hotkey.net.au (Ken Stone)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:19:31 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
Message-ID: <200310262219.h9QMJOs08637@duckula.hotkey.net.au>


You can see what I was doing in a similar project here. Admittedly I haven't
tested this PCB, but my prototype certainly ran fine. I think I also did one
using the 161, but I forget!
 
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs20_dco.html

>The idea is: I take a high frequency oscillator (100 MHz in the final
>poject, 16 MHz in my bench project so i can see the signals on my
>Oscope).

Not with LS TTL! they flake at about 25 MHz.

Cheers,

Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone   sasami at hotkey.net.au  
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/synth/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>


From cfmd at swipnet.se  Mon Oct 27 00:39:08 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 00:39:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
In-Reply-To: <200310262219.h9QMJOs08637@duckula.hotkey.net.au>
References: <200310262219.h9QMJOs08637@duckula.hotkey.net.au>
Message-ID: <20031027.003908.68576650.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: sasami at hotkey.net.au (Ken Stone)
Subject: Re: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:19:31 +1100

Hi Ken,

> You can see what I was doing in a similar project here. Admittedly I haven't
> tested this PCB, but my prototype certainly ran fine. I think I also did one
> using the 161, but I forget!
>  
> http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs20_dco.html

No, you where using 193 and not either of 161 or 163s.

> >The idea is: I take a high frequency oscillator (100 MHz in the final
> >poject, 16 MHz in my bench project so i can see the signals on my
> >Oscope).
> 
> Not with LS TTL! they flake at about 25 MHz.

I agree, for those speeds I would use a small CPLD or FPGA today. Cheap and
fairly easy to get the intended performance.

A hint would be to get a VHDL simulator, get the VHDL models from Free Model
Foundation and it should be easy enough to build a model up the thing you are
trying to do and get a full-blown view of all the signals going in the ratnest.
Quite easy to get started these days and if you spend some time over the
traces I am sure you will learn a few things in the process. The FMF models
can also be timing correct, which is kind of neat. However, it doesn't have the
74LS163, but it has the F and HC variants, more can be added since that is
stored separately from the actual model. Do look yourself in the FMF webpages:
http://www.eda.org/fmf/wwwpages/Welcome.html

Well, some of us do spend time over analog simulations, so why not do the same
for digital designs?

Cheers,
Magnus


From buchi at takeonetech.de  Mon Oct 27 02:43:43 2003
From: buchi at takeonetech.de (Michael Buchstaller)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:43:43 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
In-Reply-To: <20031027.003908.68576650.cfmd@swipnet.se>
References: <200310262219.h9QMJOs08637@duckula.hotkey.net.au> <20031027.003908.68576650.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <potopvc2kcenbilrdqvokj9nck1toagda0@4ax.com>

>> http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs20_dco.html
>
>No, you where using 193 and not either of 161 or 163s.

Yes, but i built Ken?s circuit just to see it, and it worked immediately !
So i suspect some fault in my handling of the 163.

>I agree, for those speeds I would use a small CPLD or FPGA today. Cheap and
>fairly easy to get the intended performance.

Good point. But before i go deeper into learning VHDL, building or buying a programmer
and so on, i would prefer good old TTL logic for such simple stuff.
Especially if there are no really high frequencies involved. The 100 MHz will be divided down
to less than 16 MHz after the first counter, and i even do not use it?s output. So i can get away
without too much RF headaches (at least i hope so)

>Well, some of us do spend time over analog simulations, so why not do the same
>for digital designs?

Yes, sure you are right. But in life there is only so much time, and some other things
(like work, the wife, my parrots and so on) need their fair share of time, too.
So many ideas, so less time for them...


-Michael Buchstaller


From sasami at hotkey.net.au  Mon Oct 27 05:19:32 2003
From: sasami at hotkey.net.au (Ken Stone)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:19:32 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] simple TTL programmable counter question (74LS163)
Message-ID: <200310270419.h9R4JVT20298@duckula.hotkey.net.au>


>> You can see what I was doing in a similar project here. Admittedly I haven't
>> tested this PCB, but my prototype certainly ran fine. I think I also did one
>> using the 161, but I forget!
>>  
>> http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs20_dco.html
>
>No, you where using 193 and not either of 161 or 163s.

ALSO did one with 161 or 163. The count direction is reversed (i.e. an up
count, so it was pain, and I went back to the 193.

>> Not with LS TTL! they flake at about 25 MHz.
>
>I agree, for those speeds I would use a small CPLD or FPGA today. Cheap and
>fairly easy to get the intended performance.

The HC, ACT, and HCT series can get better frequencies, but I don't recall
how much better. 

Cheers,

Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone   sasami at hotkey.net.au  
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/synth/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>


From music.maker at gte.net  Mon Oct 27 21:37:23 2003
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:37:23 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
Message-ID: <200310272137.h9RLbNI30379@linux6.lan>

>On Monday 27 October 2003 22:01, Troy Sheets wrote:
> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
> single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
> in the sub-1hz range.

Look at Intersil ICL8038.  Data sheet says .001Hz to 300kHz, multiple
waveforms: sine, square and triangle.  Power +10 to +30, can be dual
supply +/-5 to +/-15.  It can be voltage controlled, but it's not very
linear.

Is .001Hz "real slow" ?

=========================================================  
- Where merit is not rewarded, excellence fades.
- Hydrogen is pointless without solar.
- What good are laws that only lawyers understand?
- The media's credibility should always be questioned.
- Governments do nothing well, save collect taxes.

-- Scott Gravenhorst | LegoManiac / Lego Trains / RIS 1.5
-- Linux Rex         | RedWebMail by RedStarWare
-- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FatMan/
-- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/


From tsheets at atari.saturn5.com  Mon Oct 27 22:01:42 2003
From: tsheets at atari.saturn5.com (Troy Sheets)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:01:42 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
Message-ID: <20031027210142.GR4922@atari.saturn5.com>



Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a single
package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run in the
sub-1hz range.

Anyone have any tips?  This is for an EL-wire project, not for audio...
so 0-5V range is OK.

-troy

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tsheets at saturn5.com                                  <- You have found me   
http://www.saturn5.com/tsheets/audio                 <- my .mp3 tracks
"I just don't have the discipline to be a hippie"    <- Homer J. Simpson


From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Mon Oct 27 22:14:12 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:14:12 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
In-Reply-To: <20031027210142.GR4922@atari.saturn5.com>
References: <20031027210142.GR4922@atari.saturn5.com>
Message-ID: <03102722141206.00671@Robert>

On Monday 27 October 2003 22:01, Troy Sheets wrote:
> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
> single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
> in the sub-1hz range.

A microcontroller with PWM ouput or a built-in DAC would probably be 
the easiest solution. In both cases you can achieve higher resolution 
than the typical 8..10bit by using multiple outputs.


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

Q series MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfQDocs



From psnow at magma.ca  Mon Oct 27 23:47:43 2003
From: psnow at magma.ca (Peter Snow)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:47:43 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
References: <200310272137.h9RLbNI30379@linux6.lan>
Message-ID: <3F9DA08F.758DB3DC@magma.ca>


Talking of 8038's, check out the Midwest Analog site.  Tom Henry has started a series of free
schematics of synth modules - VCO and ADSR so far. Another schematic he has up there is for a linear
VCO based on the 8038.  Perhaps that would be a suitable place to start, for an LFO?  Perhaps you
could also use the 566, though that has square and triangle outputs I'm sure you could do the other
waveshapes with a few extra parts.  Or perhaps some of the EXAR line - 2206, 2207, 2209, etc.

Peter

Scott Gravenhorst wrote:
> 
> >On Monday 27 October 2003 22:01, Troy Sheets wrote:
> > Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
> > single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
> > in the sub-1hz range.
> 
> Look at Intersil ICL8038.  Data sheet says .001Hz to 300kHz, multiple
> waveforms: sine, square and triangle.  Power +10 to +30, can be dual
> supply +/-5 to +/-15.  It can be voltage controlled, but it's not very
> linear.
> 
> Is .001Hz "real slow" ?
> 
> =========================================================
> - Where merit is not rewarded, excellence fades.
> - Hydrogen is pointless without solar.
> - What good are laws that only lawyers understand?
> - The media's credibility should always be questioned.
> - Governments do nothing well, save collect taxes.
> 
> -- Scott Gravenhorst | LegoManiac / Lego Trains / RIS 1.5
> -- Linux Rex         | RedWebMail by RedStarWare
> -- FatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/FatMan/
> -- NonFatMan: home1.gte.net/res0658s/electronics/


From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Tue Oct 28 00:06:29 2003
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:06:29 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20031027230629.00d660e8@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 10:14 PM 27/10/03 +0100, Achim. wrote:
>> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
>> single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
>> in the sub-1hz range.
>A microcontroller with PWM ouput or a built-in DAC would probably be 
>the easiest solution. In both cases you can achieve higher resolution 
>than the typical 8..10bit by using multiple outputs.

Depending what you want to do with the LFO.... a very slowly stepped LFO 
is very noticeable indeed. This is just about the only thing I wouldn't
want to do with a micro, but I'd like to hear more opinions.
The 3080 is good, but the range is (in practice) only about 1000 to 1.
(was there a work-around for that? Transistor as timing resistor?)

paul perry Melbourne Australia



From tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com  Tue Oct 28 00:38:55 2003
From: tparkhurst at siliconbandwidth.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:38:55 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
Message-ID: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D794@SBIEXCHANGE>

Look for the Intersil CA3080 spec sheet. One of the applications they show
is a voltage controlled function generator with a 1,000,000 to 1 range! The
timing cap portion is real tricky in that it uses 3 adjustable caps, but
perhaps that could be simplified for lower frequency use and the range could
be brought down in to "real slow" range (depends on the minimum input
current for the 3080?). I just thought it was interesting because it showed
the 3080 used as a voltage controlled current source with a VERY wide range.
I think it would make a cool LFO, and the current source might just be the
ticket for a wide range VCADSR.

Tim Servo

********************************************************
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Perry [mailto:pfperry at melbpc.org.au]
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:06 PM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
> 
> At 10:14 PM 27/10/03 +0100, Achim. wrote:
> >> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
> >> single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
> >> in the sub-1hz range.
> >A microcontroller with PWM ouput or a built-in DAC would probably be
> >the easiest solution. In both cases you can achieve higher resolution
> >than the typical 8..10bit by using multiple outputs.
> 
> Depending what you want to do with the LFO.... a very slowly stepped LFO
> is very noticeable indeed. This is just about the only thing I wouldn't
> want to do with a micro, but I'd like to hear more opinions.
> The 3080 is good, but the range is (in practice) only about 1000 to 1.
> (was there a work-around for that? Transistor as timing resistor?)
> 
> paul perry Melbourne Australia




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message.
***************************************************************************



From tsheets at atari.saturn5.com  Tue Oct 28 00:58:46 2003
From: tsheets at atari.saturn5.com (Troy Sheets)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:58:46 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20031027230629.00d660e8@popa.melbpc.org.au>
References: <1.5.4.32.20031027230629.00d660e8@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <20031027235846.GY4922@atari.saturn5.com>



Actually, a microcontroller would work great, but I want to keep it
an all-analog visual effects project... :)

-troy

On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 10:06:29AM +1100, Paul Perry wrote:
> At 10:14 PM 27/10/03 +0100, Achim. wrote:
> >> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
> >> single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
> >> in the sub-1hz range.
> >A microcontroller with PWM ouput or a built-in DAC would probably be 
> >the easiest solution. In both cases you can achieve higher resolution 
> >than the typical 8..10bit by using multiple outputs.
> 
> Depending what you want to do with the LFO.... a very slowly stepped LFO 
> is very noticeable indeed. This is just about the only thing I wouldn't
> want to do with a micro, but I'd like to hear more opinions.
> The 3080 is good, but the range is (in practice) only about 1000 to 1.
> (was there a work-around for that? Transistor as timing resistor?)
> 
> paul perry Melbourne Australia
> 

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tsheets at saturn5.com                                  <- You have found me   
http://www.saturn5.com/tsheets/audio                 <- my .mp3 tracks
"I just don't have the discipline to be a hippie"    <- Homer J. Simpson


From t.hogers at home.nl  Tue Oct 28 01:50:20 2003
From: t.hogers at home.nl (Theo)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:50:20 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
References: <20031027210142.GR4922@atari.saturn5.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c39ced$76d727e0$d37478d4@ensch1.ov.home.nl>

Why not use a "standard" Opamp based tri/saw/square LFO?
JFET Opamp like TL072 can go quite slow.
When one opamp is used for a 1/2V+ reference a 074 can be a nice slow single
supply LFO.

Cook book receipt:
Start with a standard triangle LFO.
Take 100k & 47k for the feedback resistors around the comparator.
Use a 10k potmeter for the rate potmeter and use it in divider mode (like
usual),
the top of the pot connects directly to the comparator output.
Now add a 4M7 series resistor on the wiper towards the timing cap.

In this setup even a small 470nF timing cap gives a "fastest" rate of
0.053hz!!!
The slowest rate would be roughly 200 times slower,
around 0.00026 hz or round about 1 hour period.
This depends on the supply voltage and quality of the pot meter tough.
A good pot and enough supply voltage can give you more than double the 200
times range.

A smaller wiper resistor and or a smaller timing cap raises the max
frequency.
Best to start with a smaller resistor and when down to 1M or so a smaller
cap.

Formulas:
For the fastest rate: frequency = (1/(4RC))(R2/R1)
Where:
- R and C are the timing cap and the wiper series resistor.
- R1 and R2 are the feedback resistors around the comparator.

For the slowest rate: roughly 200 times the fastest rate.

A diode from the timing cap to the top of the rate potmeter changes to SAW
operation.
However the rate doubles.

Note: works best with +/-12V or more supply voltage.
With a +5V single supply the range selectable by the pot could become
smaller than the factor 200 stated above.

Have fun.
Theo



----- Original Message -----
From: Troy Sheets <tsheets at atari.saturn5.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?


>
>
> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a single
> package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run in the
> sub-1hz range.
>
> Anyone have any tips?  This is for an EL-wire project, not for audio...
> so 0-5V range is OK.
>
> -troy
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> tsheets at saturn5.com                                  <- You have found me
> http://www.saturn5.com/tsheets/audio                 <- my .mp3 tracks
> "I just don't have the discipline to be a hippie"    <- Homer J. Simpson


From t.hogers at home.nl  Tue Oct 28 02:24:07 2003
From: t.hogers at home.nl (Theo)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:24:07 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
References: <20031027210142.GR4922@atari.saturn5.com> <001f01c39ced$76d727e0$d37478d4@ensch1.ov.home.nl>
Message-ID: <000701c39cf2$33f4b640$d37478d4@ensch1.ov.home.nl>

Arggg, mixed up the values for R1 and R2 when calculating.
Not as slow as advertised but about 4 times faster.
With 470n the max frequency would be 0,24 hz.
Assuming a range factor 200, the slowest rate 0,07 hz or about 13 minutes.

But there is always the trustworthy 2u2 MKT cap to come to the rescue ;)

Sorry for the calculation error.
Theo


----- Original Message -----
From: Theo <t.hogers at home.nl>
To: Troy Sheets <tsheets at atari.saturn5.com>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?


> Why not use a "standard" Opamp based tri/saw/square LFO?
> JFET Opamp like TL072 can go quite slow.
> When one opamp is used for a 1/2V+ reference a 074 can be a nice slow
single
> supply LFO.
>
> Cook book receipt:
> Start with a standard triangle LFO.
> Take 100k & 47k for the feedback resistors around the comparator.
> Use a 10k potmeter for the rate potmeter and use it in divider mode (like
> usual),
> the top of the pot connects directly to the comparator output.
> Now add a 4M7 series resistor on the wiper towards the timing cap.
>
> In this setup even a small 470nF timing cap gives a "fastest" rate of
> 0.053hz!!!
> The slowest rate would be roughly 200 times slower,
> around 0.00026 hz or round about 1 hour period.
> This depends on the supply voltage and quality of the pot meter tough.
> A good pot and enough supply voltage can give you more than double the 200
> times range.
>
> A smaller wiper resistor and or a smaller timing cap raises the max
> frequency.
> Best to start with a smaller resistor and when down to 1M or so a smaller
> cap.
>
> Formulas:
> For the fastest rate: frequency = (1/(4RC))(R2/R1)
> Where:
> - R and C are the timing cap and the wiper series resistor.
> - R1 and R2 are the feedback resistors around the comparator.
>
> For the slowest rate: roughly 200 times the fastest rate.
>
> A diode from the timing cap to the top of the rate potmeter changes to SAW
> operation.
> However the rate doubles.
>
> Note: works best with +/-12V or more supply voltage.
> With a +5V single supply the range selectable by the pot could become
> smaller than the factor 200 stated above.
>
> Have fun.
> Theo
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Troy Sheets <tsheets at atari.saturn5.com>
> To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 10:01 PM
> Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
single
> > package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run in the
> > sub-1hz range.
> >
> > Anyone have any tips?  This is for an EL-wire project, not for audio...
> > so 0-5V range is OK.
> >
> > -troy
> >
> > --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > tsheets at saturn5.com                                  <- You have found
me
> > http://www.saturn5.com/tsheets/audio                 <- my .mp3 tracks
> > "I just don't have the discipline to be a hippie"    <- Homer J. Simpson
>


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Oct 28 02:58:53 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:58:53 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply alert +/-15V 0.4A
Message-ID: <3F9DCD5D.8A872EAD@prodigy.net>

For those with modest power needs...

www.mpja.com has

14585-PS   Tamura OLD-15B  +/-15VDC 0.4A (each) for  $4.95 US

since I bought a similar supply recently, for $40... I'm rather pissed
:^P

anyway,,, if you need a small synth supply this might be it...

H^) harry


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Tue Oct 28 03:00:54 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:00:54 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
References: <03F67B8194BDD411A28B000629D57D80C4D794@SBIEXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <3F9DCDD5.1D955D4@prodigy.net>

iirc... the trimmer caps are all for the high frequency range (compensation)
and could be removed completely for a very LFO... or even over a reasonable
slice of the audio band.

H^) harry

Tim Parkhurst wrote:

> Look for the Intersil CA3080 spec sheet. One of the applications they show
> is a voltage controlled function generator with a 1,000,000 to 1 range! The
> timing cap portion is real tricky in that it uses 3 adjustable caps, but
> perhaps that could be simplified for lower frequency use and the range could
> be brought down in to "real slow" range (depends on the minimum input
> current for the 3080?). I just thought it was interesting because it showed
> the 3080 used as a voltage controlled current source with a VERY wide range.
> I think it would make a cool LFO, and the current source might just be the
> ticket for a wide range VCADSR.
>
> Tim Servo
>
> ********************************************************
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Perry [mailto:pfperry at melbpc.org.au]
> > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:06 PM
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
> >
> > At 10:14 PM 27/10/03 +0100, Achim. wrote:
> > >> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
> > >> single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
> > >> in the sub-1hz range.
> > >A microcontroller with PWM ouput or a built-in DAC would probably be
> > >the easiest solution. In both cases you can achieve higher resolution
> > >than the typical 8..10bit by using multiple outputs.
> >
> > Depending what you want to do with the LFO.... a very slowly stepped LFO
> > is very noticeable indeed. This is just about the only thing I wouldn't
> > want to do with a micro, but I'd like to hear more opinions.
> > The 3080 is good, but the range is (in practice) only about 1000 to 1.
> > (was there a work-around for that? Transistor as timing resistor?)
> >
> > paul perry Melbourne Australia
>
> ***************************************************************************
> This message is confidential.  The information contained in
> this e-mail message is intended only for confidential use of the
> recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in
> error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
> message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in
> error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original
> message.
> ***************************************************************************


From asfi at eol.ca  Tue Oct 28 07:15:13 2003
From: asfi at eol.ca (Colin Hinz)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:15:13 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Subject: [sdiy] CCEMC
In-Reply-To: <1d3.12163b08.2cb3b0bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.33.0310272026180.1232-100000@Colin.silicon-video.com>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 DWa2898572 at aol.com wrote:

> Does anyone one know anything about this group? They released an LP in 1977,
> I believe it was on the Sackville Records label. They were a Canadian
> Electronic Improvising group, who used EMS Synthesizers exclusively!
>
> Dr. Synth

You've likely munged together two group's names -- CCMC and CEE. The
former is an improvising group which presently consists of John Oswald
(sax), Paul Dutton (voice) and Michael Snow (synth/piano); though all
three sometimes play other instruments instead. But all-electronic?
I wonder.... (And for what it's worth, CCMC once meant "Canadian
Creative Music Collective" but they haven't used that expansion in
years -- at one point they were making up new expansions for every
performance.)

The CEE (Canadian Electronic Ensemble) consists of (at this time) six
members, and has been in existence since 1971. Their discography doesn't
list anything on Sackville, though. When I saw them in concert some
12 years ago, they were using a Synthi 'A'. A couple of years ago I
was in their studio and spotted *two* of these fine instruments. They
haven't used them in any of the recent (past 5 years) concerts that
I've attended, though.

CEE is here, though:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/larry_lake/cee.htm

CCMC doesn't have a web presence, as far as I can tell.

Hmmm, Sackville? I thought (from looking at on-line catalogues from
their retailers) they were fairly traditional with the jazz. An
all-synthesizer project doesn't seem like their cup of tea.

Ask me a question, and you'll get *more* questions back, heh heh.

- Colin Hinz
  Toronto, Canada




From Martin.Czech at micronas.com  Tue Oct 28 09:51:48 2003
From: Martin.Czech at micronas.com (Czech Martin)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:51:48 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] ot: search for primary switcher PSU lots of W
Message-ID: <D9D56E8FA1A73542BE9A5EC7E35D37FFF1C5B5@EXCHANGE2.Micronas.com>

After some frustrating search:

can somebody please point to the url of a PSU vendor
that sells to normal people. Germany, Europe, USA?

I need a switching supply, 80V 5-10A.
NOT the usuall computer stuff.
But I can not spend 500 EUR or so.

Thanx
m.c. 


From Stromeko at compuserve.de  Tue Oct 28 19:43:05 2003
From: Stromeko at compuserve.de (ASSI)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:43:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20031027230629.00d660e8@popa.melbpc.org.au>
References: <1.5.4.32.20031027230629.00d660e8@popa.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <03102819430502.00671@Robert>

On Tuesday 28 October 2003 00:06, Paul Perry wrote:
> Depending what you want to do with the LFO.... a very slowly stepped
> LFO is very noticeable indeed. This is just about the only thing I
> wouldn't want to do with a micro, but I'd like to hear more opinions.

If you can constrain the upper frequency for the LFO suitably, you can 
achieve almost arbitrary resolution on the amplitude (the tradeoff is 
indeed on SNR, not resolution). The advantage is that you get very 
precise and consistent timing/frequency over a wide range, which is 
otherwise hard to achieve in the sub-Hz range.

If that is not a goal, a simple triangle core, perhaps followed by a 
sine former, does the job well. I've built one out of a 555 timer by 
replacing the charging resistors with current sources some years ago. I 
don't think it was very repeatable or particularly precise, but it did 
a reasonable triangle down to the mHz range.


Achim.

-- +<[_Q+_Matrix-12_WAVE#46_microQkb/Omega_XTk/30_sonic_heaven_]>+ --

Q series MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://homepages.compuserve.de/Stromeko#WaldorfQDocs



From hechesi at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 29 02:34:02 2003
From: hechesi at yahoo.com (Luciano Hormazabal)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:34:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [sdiy] simulations
Message-ID: <20031029013402.49161.qmail@web40305.mail.yahoo.com>

hi there!!!
 
first of all i want to thank everybody for their kindness and good will. every question i have asked has been quickly answered. keep it up guys!!
 
now the present question:
 
does anybody have a synth, or a part of it, simulated in a program like orcad or microcap??
 
if it is the asm-1 it would be great!! if it is the fatman or any other it would be good also. i hope someone can send me the files (.cir or whatever, they are not very heavy). i would appreciate it very much.
 
thanx!!




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
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From mboracci at nfpcomputer.com  Wed Oct 29 04:21:49 2003
From: mboracci at nfpcomputer.com (Michael Boracci)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:21:49 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
In-Reply-To: <3F9DCDD5.1D955D4@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCEGBCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>

I have seen the output of the 3080 and the sine output was not very pure (
switching glitch at zero crossing point )at higher frequencies around 10khz.
Does anyone know if this is true for the sub-audible range as well?

Any word on temperature stability?

MB

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:01 PM
To: Tim Parkhurst
Cc: 'Paul Perry'; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?


iirc... the trimmer caps are all for the high frequency range (compensation)
and could be removed completely for a very LFO... or even over a reasonable
slice of the audio band.

H^) harry

Tim Parkhurst wrote:

> Look for the Intersil CA3080 spec sheet. One of the applications they show
> is a voltage controlled function generator with a 1,000,000 to 1 range!
The
> timing cap portion is real tricky in that it uses 3 adjustable caps, but
> perhaps that could be simplified for lower frequency use and the range
could
> be brought down in to "real slow" range (depends on the minimum input
> current for the 3080?). I just thought it was interesting because it
showed
> the 3080 used as a voltage controlled current source with a VERY wide
range.
> I think it would make a cool LFO, and the current source might just be the
> ticket for a wide range VCADSR.
>
> Tim Servo
>
> ********************************************************
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Perry [mailto:pfperry at melbpc.org.au]
> > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:06 PM
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
> >
> > At 10:14 PM 27/10/03 +0100, Achim. wrote:
> > >> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
> > >> single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
> > >> in the sub-1hz range.
> > >A microcontroller with PWM ouput or a built-in DAC would probably be
> > >the easiest solution. In both cases you can achieve higher resolution
> > >than the typical 8..10bit by using multiple outputs.
> >
> > Depending what you want to do with the LFO.... a very slowly stepped LFO
> > is very noticeable indeed. This is just about the only thing I wouldn't
> > want to do with a micro, but I'd like to hear more opinions.
> > The 3080 is good, but the range is (in practice) only about 1000 to 1.
> > (was there a work-around for that? Transistor as timing resistor?)
> >
> > paul perry Melbourne Australia
>
>
***************************************************************************
> This message is confidential.  The information contained in
> this e-mail message is intended only for confidential use of the
> recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the
intended
> recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in
> error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
> message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication
in
> error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original
> message.
>
***************************************************************************




____________________________________________________________
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From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Wed Oct 29 04:34:05 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:34:05 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCEGBCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com>
Message-ID: <3F9F352C.5EDFB0A9@prodigy.net>

I'm assuming you are still considering the 1Hz - 1MHz from the app note.
Looking at the data book (not the app note) I don't see the sine converter.

There is one shown on the CA3280 sheet with .37% distortion...

Most CA3080 sine converters do not make a really pure sine.. it is either
distorted
at the zero cross or at the peak...

Temperature stability ??? Probably not perfect...  do you need stability in a
really
LFO ???

H^) harry

Michael Boracci wrote:

> I have seen the output of the 3080 and the sine output was not very pure (
> switching glitch at zero crossing point )at higher frequencies around 10khz.
> Does anyone know if this is true for the sub-audible range as well?
>
> Any word on temperature stability?
>
> MB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:owner-synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl]On Behalf Of harrybissell
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:01 PM
> To: Tim Parkhurst
> Cc: 'Paul Perry'; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
>
> iirc... the trimmer caps are all for the high frequency range (compensation)
> and could be removed completely for a very LFO... or even over a reasonable
> slice of the audio band.
>
> H^) harry
>
> Tim Parkhurst wrote:
>
> > Look for the Intersil CA3080 spec sheet. One of the applications they show
> > is a voltage controlled function generator with a 1,000,000 to 1 range!
> The
> > timing cap portion is real tricky in that it uses 3 adjustable caps, but
> > perhaps that could be simplified for lower frequency use and the range
> could
> > be brought down in to "real slow" range (depends on the minimum input
> > current for the 3080?). I just thought it was interesting because it
> showed
> > the 3080 used as a voltage controlled current source with a VERY wide
> range.
> > I think it would make a cool LFO, and the current source might just be the
> > ticket for a wide range VCADSR.
> >
> > Tim Servo
> >
> > ********************************************************
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Paul Perry [mailto:pfperry at melbpc.org.au]
> > > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:06 PM
> > > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
> > >
> > > At 10:14 PM 27/10/03 +0100, Achim. wrote:
> > > >> Hi, I am looking for a super-simple LFO IC... or multiple LFOs in a
> > > >> single package.  sine or saw output will be fine, must be able to run
> > > >> in the sub-1hz range.
> > > >A microcontroller with PWM ouput or a built-in DAC would probably be
> > > >the easiest solution. In both cases you can achieve higher resolution
> > > >than the typical 8..10bit by using multiple outputs.
> > >
> > > Depending what you want to do with the LFO.... a very slowly stepped LFO
> > > is very noticeable indeed. This is just about the only thing I wouldn't
> > > want to do with a micro, but I'd like to hear more opinions.
> > > The 3080 is good, but the range is (in practice) only about 1000 to 1.
> > > (was there a work-around for that? Transistor as timing resistor?)
> > >
> > > paul perry Melbourne Australia
> >
> >
> ***************************************************************************
> > This message is confidential.  The information contained in
> > this e-mail message is intended only for confidential use of the
> > recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the
> intended
> > recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
> > recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in
> > error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
> > message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication
> in
> > error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original
> > message.
> >
> ***************************************************************************
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
> Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/


From denshiblocks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 29 05:33:22 2003
From: denshiblocks at yahoo.com (denshi)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:33:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [sdiy] c.a.g.?
In-Reply-To: <3F9F352C.5EDFB0A9@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20031029043322.52518.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>

i cant view cloned analog gear in netscape.  is it
down?  i was just curious about some schematics...

thanks
seth

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/


From john.l.marshall at gte.net  Wed Oct 29 05:55:57 2003
From: john.l.marshall at gte.net (John L Marshall)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:55:57 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCEGBCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com> <3F9F352C.5EDFB0A9@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <001301c39dd8$f18248d0$8401a8c0@PURPLE>

Harry said:
> Temperature stability ??? Probably not perfect...  do you need stability
in a
> really
> LFO ???
>
Around 31nHz you may need to compensate for temperature changes due to the
four seasons 8-)
About 11uHz,day to night temperature compensation.

Take care,
John
------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sound-photo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------



From aaron at receive-transmit.com  Wed Oct 29 13:00:54 2003
From: aaron at receive-transmit.com (Aaron Day)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:00:54 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] FS: CGS PCB boards + some gear housecleaning (EUROPE)
Message-ID: <8C766985-0A07-11D8-ABB3-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>

Hello all.

Because of a mix-up w/ the post I have some extra Cat Girl PCB's to 
sell.

2 x CGS 34 ASR      ?8,75
1 x CGS 12V display Adaptor  ?5,15

These are what I paid for the boards (+/- exchange rate)

Post here in Europe shouldn't be more than ?3.

The following needs to go away was well. Email/call me offline for more 
info/photos/Q's:

??Oberheim Matrix-6r w/ original and 3rd party manuals ?250

??Deltalab Compu-Effectron CE1700 delay + original manual. Very cool 
1st generation DDL (i.e. not hi-fi) w/ some nifty control options. ?100

??Behringer 1604a. Barely used, box, manual etc... ?100

??Electro-Harmonix Bad Stone (1st generation "mummy head" silkscreen) 
?90

??"The Beginner's Book of Electronic Music", by Delton T. Horn, TAB 
books, 376p,  1982. First half of the book is a discussion of circuits 
and theory second half is a sort of "gallery" discussion of late 70's 
early 80s' synths and drum machines. Black and white photos. I dunno 
?10?

??Logic Audio manual in Emagic ring binder. English, Version 4.0 (late 
1999 printing). Free. You pay for the shipping.

Buyer pays actual shipping costs in Europe/UK.

Thanks,

ad




________________________
Aaron Day
Marienburgerstr. 33
VH EG rechts
10405 Berlin
Germany

Mobile +49 179.750.1854
Office +49 (0)30.255.627.94
Fax +49 (0)30.255.627.96
________________________



From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Wed Oct 29 14:38:13 2003
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:38:13 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20031029133813.00d72b90@popa.melbpc.org.au>

At 06:48 PM 29/10/03 +1100, Kevin wrote:

>What sort of application can you envisage where stepping would be so
>noticeable?
>Surely this depends on the resolution of the DAC. At 16 bits any
>stepping would be below perceptible limits in most cases.
>As an extreme example, assume the LFO is driving VCO frequency through a
>10 Octave range, each step will be 10/65536 Octave which is about 1/5
>cent. At Mid C this would be a change of less than 1/36 Hz.
>
Quite right. A 12 bit dac would prob see ME out ;D
And if the original application was for electroluminescent wiring,
a good deal fewer digits would suffice.

paul perry MElb Aust



From daugard at sprintmail.com  Wed Oct 29 14:40:48 2003
From: daugard at sprintmail.com (TIm Daugard)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:40:48 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCEGBCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com> <3F9F352C.5EDFB0A9@prodigy.net> <001301c39dd8$f18248d0$8401a8c0@PURPLE>
Message-ID: <015701c39e22$450f1980$4258fea9@desktop2>

> Around 31nHz you may need to compensate for temperature changes due to the
> four seasons 8-)
> About 11uHz,day to night temperature compensation.

I know ! I know !  Put a photo cell outside feeding a signal to your module -
11.574 uHz LFO with extreme frequency stability.

Tim





From tpaddock at seanet.com  Wed Oct 29 15:55:29 2003
From: tpaddock at seanet.com (Toby Paddock)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:55:29 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] [OT] Tube manuals
Message-ID: <003c01c39e2c$b4cfe920$15ea4b43@yourjjezkx0elp>

A friend at work has some tube manuals he said he
would sell me, but neither of us has a clue for
how much. So I'm wondering if anyone
has a rough ballpark guess what they might be
worth?

RCA ELECTRON TUBE HANDBOOK HB-3
Dates on the data sheet seem to be 40's and 50's.
5 volumes in weird hinged spine (so they lay flat) smallish 4 ring
binders.
rec 1, rec 2, transmitting, general;cathode ray;storage,
  and photo;thy;ign;glow-dis;misc
As a guess, I'd rate them Very Good condition.
Stacked up, they are about 14 inches thick.

I didn't see anything on ebay even close,

Thanks,
Toby Paddock


From aaron at receive-transmit.com  Wed Oct 29 16:05:37 2003
From: aaron at receive-transmit.com (Aaron Day)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:05:37 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] source for  2N5088 in Germany/UK??
Message-ID: <5A4E0D4E-0A21-11D8-ABB3-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>

I'm looking for some 2N5088 transistors and can't seem to find any at 
Reichelt or Farnell. Any other recommendations for a source here in 
Europe?

TIA,

ad

________________________
Aaron Day
Marienburgerstr. 33
VH EG rechts
10405 Berlin
Germany

Mobile +49 179.750.1854
Office +49 (0)30.255.627.94
Fax +49 (0)30.255.627.96
________________________


From np at inverse-entertainment.de  Wed Oct 29 17:03:45 2003
From: np at inverse-entertainment.de (Nils Pipenbrinck)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:03:45 +0100
Subject: AW: [sdiy] source for  2N5088 in Germany/UK??
In-Reply-To: <5A4E0D4E-0A21-11D8-ABB3-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>
Message-ID: <AMEHLEGDICECIDLKKHDHEEOCCLAA.np@inverse-entertainment.de>


Aaron Day wrote:

> I'm looking for some 2N5088 transistors and can't seem to find any at
> Reichelt or Farnell. Any other recommendations for a source here in
> Europe?

I would be surprised if a BC549 wouldn't do the job.

The BC549 has six times the bandwith, less noise and the other parameters
are in the same league or even a bit better. Are you looking for a 2N5088
for a specific reason? If not I would just give it a try.

 Nils


From cj3000 at gmx.de  Wed Oct 29 17:27:46 2003
From: cj3000 at gmx.de (cj3000)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:27:46 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 2N3566
Message-ID: <3F9FEA82.2000908@gmx.de>

Hi all,

i have been looking for a 2N3566. Since i can?t find it in Germany i 
thought maybe you guys no a replacement for this NPN. It is used in the 
Buchla 291 Bandpass.

thanks for all info.
chriss


From lenham at claramail.com  Wed Oct 29 17:35:30 2003
From: lenham at claramail.com (Stephen Lenham)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:35:30 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] source for  2N5088 in Germany/UK??
Message-ID: <E1AEtIA-0005iq-Qt@psyche.clara.net>

Firstly, greetings and best wishes to the list from a new subscriber/
poster.

If only the 2N5088 will do, you could try the following UK dealers who 
are listing it (I can't vouch for their stock though...)

Cricklewood Electronics (www.cricklewoodelectronics.com) list them at 
an outrageous UKP1.50 each.

Nikko Electronics (www.dalbani.co.uk) list them at UKP0.11 each, making 
the MOQ of 25 more palatable.

I've dealt with both and they're OK - good luck!

Steve L.


> I'm looking for some 2N5088 transistors and can't seem to find any at 

> Reichelt or Farnell. Any other recommendations for a source here in 
> Europe?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> ad
> 
> ________________________
> Aaron Day
> Marienburgerstr. 33
> VH EG rechts
> 10405 Berlin
> Germany
> 
> Mobile +49 179.750.1854
> Office +49 (0)30.255.627.94
> Fax +49 (0)30.255.627.96
> ________________________
> 
> 


From peake at pacificnet.net  Wed Oct 29 17:57:43 2003
From: peake at pacificnet.net (Mike Peake)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:57:43 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] FS: CGS PCB boards + some gear housecleaning (EUROPE)
In-Reply-To: <8C766985-0A07-11D8-ABB3-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>
References: <8C766985-0A07-11D8-ABB3-0003939B32FE@receive-transmit.com>
Message-ID: <f05100301bbc5a0d6e14b@[65.148.149.28]>

At 1:00 PM +0100 10/29/03, Aaron Day wrote:
>Hello all.
>* Deltalab Compu-Effectron CE1700 delay + original manual. Very cool 
>1st generation DDL (i.e. not hi-fi) w/ some nifty control options. 
>?100

Pardon.. The CompuEffectron is indeed a cool
device, but it's not first-generation, even
from Deltalab.

DL-1
DL-2 blackface
2nd-generation DL2; 3, 4, Harmonicomputer (blueface)
Memory expander for DLs
then I stopped paying close attention, but here goes:
Effectron line, ending with the Compueffectron.

How many seconds does it have? How many memories,
and CV inputs? That's a great price!

Easier,
-- 
Mike Peake, Your Postwar Administrator

_______________________________

Specifications:

"In 30+ years, no one has been able to re-create the sound
of a Pultec using the same technology - what makes you think
we'll be able to nail it digitally in our lifetime?"
__________________
Brad Blackwood
Mastering Engineer


From mverbos at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 19:18:05 2003
From: mverbos at earthlink.net (mark verbos)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:18:05 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] 2N3566
In-Reply-To: <3F9FEA82.2000908@gmx.de>
References: <3F9FEA82.2000908@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <3FA0045D.1000508@earthlink.net>

just use whatever NPN. In that application, it won't matter. I have 
built several with 2N3904's and they work well. Any standard European 
NPN will be fine.

mark


cj3000 wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> i have been looking for a 2N3566. Since i can?t find it in Germany i 
> thought maybe you guys no a replacement for this NPN. It is used in 
> the Buchla 291 Bandpass.
>
> thanks for all info.
> chriss
>
>


From cfmd at swipnet.se  Wed Oct 29 23:33:02 2003
From: cfmd at swipnet.se (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:33:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [sdiy] [OT] Tube manuals
In-Reply-To: <003c01c39e2c$b4cfe920$15ea4b43@yourjjezkx0elp>
References: <003c01c39e2c$b4cfe920$15ea4b43@yourjjezkx0elp>
Message-ID: <20031029.233302.104032796.cfmd@swipnet.se>

From: "Toby Paddock" <tpaddock at seanet.com>
Subject: [sdiy] [OT] Tube manuals
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:55:29 -0800

Toby,

> A friend at work has some tube manuals he said he
> would sell me, but neither of us has a clue for
> how much. So I'm wondering if anyone
> has a rough ballpark guess what they might be
> worth?
> 
> RCA ELECTRON TUBE HANDBOOK HB-3
> Dates on the data sheet seem to be 40's and 50's.
> 5 volumes in weird hinged spine (so they lay flat) smallish 4 ring
> binders.
> rec 1, rec 2, transmitting, general;cathode ray;storage,
>   and photo;thy;ign;glow-dis;misc
> As a guess, I'd rate them Very Good condition.
> Stacked up, they are about 14 inches thick.

While this is a question for Uncle Eric I guess, through a stroke of good luck
and a blitzing coincidence I happend to have these (parts of them is at a
friend and others are here, so I don't have a good overview just yeat) and know
what you are talking about.

I think I can get away with these statements:

1) Make sure that they are taken care of. Make sure they find a good home,
   yours or somebody else's.

2) They are not unique, the info is around and I even think quite alot of it is
   on the web these days (I where given a handfull of links, but haven't
   checked them). Even if things is available on the web, there is a specific
   feeling in having it in hardcopy, at least for me (i.e. I have a hell of a
   time finding any left space for myself).

3) Make a deal you both are happy with. Start with some arbitrary value (say
   50 USD) and reason about it.

PS. Please note that I am not stating that they are worth 50 USD or any other
value, I'm giving an example. On the other hand, I would be willing to pay
50 USD for them if I where in need of them (which I don't think I am
currently). If that is a guidance for you and your friend and it makes you
happy, then so much better.

Now, good luck on figuring out the right thing to do!

Cheers,
Magnus


From makoot at gmx.net  Wed Oct 29 23:47:24 2003
From: makoot at gmx.net (MAKoot MAKoot)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:47:24 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [sdiy] 808 schematics
Message-ID: <18387.1067467644@www30.gmx.net>

Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone could point me to some schematics of the tr-808. I
did a search for it, but it didn?t helped much. Would anybody know something
where to find these schematics?

thanks in advance,
Michiel

-- 
NEU F?R ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - f?r Fotos, Musik, Dateien...
Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gru?, GMX FotoService

Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net

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From gendreau at rochester.rr.com  Thu Oct 30 04:02:17 2003
From: gendreau at rochester.rr.com (Dan Gendreau)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:02:17 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] 808 schematics
In-Reply-To: <18387.1067467644@www30.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <JFEHINLEPNPOGMABAOBDOEIHCMAA.gendreau@rochester.rr.com>

I have schematics or service manual scans of the following Roland gear available
for the asking:

cr8000, dr110, dr55, mc202, sh101, tb303, tr606, tr707/727, tr808,
tr909(partial), HC-2, PC-2

I also have the Yamaha DX-7 service manual and the schematics for the Tama
Techstar TS305 analog drum tone module.


For the TR808, I have a 300 DPI scan of that I made personally. Its about 2MB in
TIF format. You can use the Wang Imaging viewer that comes with windows to
display and print them.

Email me back if anyone wants any of these.

-Dan G.

PS. Please email requests directly to me without "[sdiy]" in the subject, it
will make it easier for me to see your requests.


From harrybissell at prodigy.net  Thu Oct 30 04:59:49 2003
From: harrybissell at prodigy.net (harrybissell)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:59:49 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
References: <FPEKLNJGOOPGCIMPEHLCCEGBCGAA.mboracci@nfpcomputer.com> <3F9F352C.5EDFB0A9@prodigy.net> <001301c39dd8$f18248d0$8401a8c0@PURPLE> <015701c39e22$450f1980$4258fea9@desktop2>
Message-ID: <3FA08CB5.16047857@prodigy.net>

Extreme frequency stability... but with terrible waveshape. Lot of noise, and
probably some "DC" offset if you consider latitudes away from the equator.
Its sure to fail above the arctic (and antarctic) circle(s)...

OTOH it could be interesting at very high latitudes where there are like 10
sunrises
per year...

H^) harry

TIm Daugard wrote:

> > Around 31nHz you may need to compensate for temperature changes due to the
> > four seasons 8-)
> > About 11uHz,day to night temperature compensation.
>
> I know ! I know !  Put a photo cell outside feeding a signal to your module -
> 11.574 uHz LFO with extreme frequency stability.
>
> Tim


From xyzzy at sysabend.org  Thu Oct 30 07:45:16 2003
From: xyzzy at sysabend.org (Tom Arnold)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:45:16 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] D7811G
Message-ID: <20031030064516.GI25109@moo.sysabend.org>

Has anyone seen a datasheet for the NEC D7811G?  I think its an 8080 
compatible CPU.  Used in the Juno106 and the current object of my
torturous intentions, the Akai MS20A.

Before I go through the major hassle of convincing NEC that they made this
thing that indeed they are still used and that they would gain much Karma
by photocopying the datasheets, I figured I'd ask...

I know Tandy used them in some printers too.

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  - 
 - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          -
 - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       - 
 --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" -


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Thu Oct 30 11:29:06 2003
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:29:06 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 808 schematics
In-Reply-To: <18387.1067467644@www30.gmx.net>
References: <18387.1067467644@www30.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3FA0E7F2.4080801@uni-bonn.de>


Hi Michiel,

Have a look at http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Roland/TR-808/

Cheers,
  Ren?


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159




From denshiblocks at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 30 12:22:19 2003
From: denshiblocks at yahoo.com (denshi)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:22:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [sdiy] discrete VCOs?
In-Reply-To: <20031030064516.GI25109@moo.sysabend.org>
Message-ID: <20031030112219.25235.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>

im interested in playing around with a discrete VCO,
expo with 1v/oct suitable for modular use.  any
references?  thanks all!

seth

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
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From david.k.cornutt at boeing.com  Thu Oct 30 15:56:20 2003
From: david.k.cornutt at boeing.com (Cornutt, David K)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:56:20 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] D7811G
Message-ID: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DD0@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>

From: Tom Arnold [mailto:xyzzy at sysabend.org]
> Has anyone seen a datasheet for the NEC D7811G?  I think its an 8080 
> compatible CPU.  Used in the Juno106 and the current object of my
> torturous intentions, the Akai MS20A.

I used to have a data book on that processor, but
unfortunately I can't find it now.  But I do recall
that the instruction set is not 8080-compatible;
IIRC it's more akin to a 6800.


From chris at scp.de  Thu Oct 30 15:59:46 2003
From: chris at scp.de (ChristianH)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:59:46 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [sdiy] Real slow LFO ICs?
In-Reply-To: <3FA08CB5.16047857@prodigy.net>
References: <015701c39e22$450f1980$4258fea9@desktop2> <3FA08CB5.16047857@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20031030145946.288CD468101@mail.scp.de>


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:59:49 -0500 harrybissell wrote:

> Extreme frequency stability... but with terrible waveshape. 

But with a nice PWM like modulation as well...

> Lot of noise, and
> probably some "DC" offset if you consider latitudes away from the equator.
> Its sure to fail above the arctic (and antarctic) circle(s)...

Isn't that what they call latch up? Try substituting all operational
planets in the system with newer parts, and be sure there's nothing
tilted when inserting.

Christian


From sdiy-mz01 at arsprototo.at  Thu Oct 30 16:01:57 2003
From: sdiy-mz01 at arsprototo.at (Michael Zacherl)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:01:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Dynacord CLS-222 vs. CLS-22?
Message-ID: <3FA127E5.9090200@arsprototo.at>

Hi All,

since a while I'm after a Dynacord CLS-222 rotating speaker simulator.
Now I found a CLS-22 and only little information about it.

Anyone knows what's the difference between the two units?
Are there any modifications worthwhile to do?

Thanks a lot, Michael.


From ifixaudio at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 30 18:35:48 2003
From: ifixaudio at hotmail.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:35:48 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Keyswitches
Message-ID: <LAW12-F767EKRuYDlrj00000f5f@hotmail.com>

Hi Group,
How about a dumb newbee question to brighten your day?
I was wondering if anyone had or knew of a circuit that made use of ONE set 
of switches to generate both, the C.V. and trigger signal. The organ I am 
going to use for my project only has one switch per key.
I thought I saw a circuit that did this by superimposing an A.C. signal on 
the ladder resistors. Another circuit detected the A.C. signal (or D.C. for 
that matter) and generated the trigger while sending the ladder D.C. to the 
C.V. circuits.
Am I crazy of would this work?
Also what would involved in making it play more than one note at a time?

Thanks

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet 
Service.  Try it FREE for one month!   http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup


From makoot at gmx.net  Thu Oct 30 20:35:52 2003
From: makoot at gmx.net (MAKoot MAKoot)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:35:52 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [sdiy] 808 schematics
References: <3FA0E7F2.4080801@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <15072.1067542552@www66.gmx.net>

Thanks all for the many designs!
I think those of Ren? will do the trick very well, thanks again!

cheers,
Michiel

> 
> Hi Michiel,
> 
> Have a look at http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Roland/TR-808/
> 
> Cheers,
>   Ren?
> 
> 
> -- 
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159
> 
> 
> 

-- 
NEU F?R ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - f?r Fotos, Musik, Dateien...
Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gru?, GMX FotoService

Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net

+++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More! +++


From r4v5 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Oct 30 20:40:31 2003
From: r4v5 at sbcglobal.net (MED)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:40:31 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] device id: R609, R657 (transistors?)
Message-ID: <200310301340.31534.r4v5@sbcglobal.net>

Google search is beyond fruitless...
All that comes up are parts lists that have 609 resistors and some kind of 
transistor.

The parts are all metal can, three pins. most legs are shielded with some kind 
of rubber. R609 980239 on five of them. Got blue dots on the face. One with a 
rubebr sleeve around the can and all three legs shielded, says "R657 990239". 
Has a brown dot under the labeling. Pulled from the voice cards of a Thomas 
organ. card says "copyright 1960" on it so who knows?

There's also these magenta-colored multipin flat devices that look vaguely 
like a SOIC chip, except for the fact that it's around two or three CM tall 
and it's got longer pins and it's all wrapped like a ceramic capacitor (the 
outer sheet -- some kind of plastic?). 8 pins. Odd spacing. seven, then a 
blank, then the eighth. I'm thinking precision resistors, or something, but 
anyone actually know? marked "848 6235" "13-5007-3" and then the pinout (the 
pin post-gap is, indeed the 8th). There's 3 per voice board.

Thanks in advance.
-MED


From don at till.com  Thu Oct 30 23:50:04 2003
From: don at till.com (Don Tillman)
Date: 30 Oct 2003 14:50:04 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Keyswitches
In-Reply-To: <LAW12-F767EKRuYDlrj00000f5f@hotmail.com> (ifixaudio@hotmail.com)
References: <LAW12-F767EKRuYDlrj00000f5f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m28yn2e3xf.fsf@till.com>

   > From: "Tim Johnson" <ifixaudio at hotmail.com>
   > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:35:48 -0500
   > 
   > I was wondering if anyone had or knew of a circuit that made use
   > of ONE set of switches to generate both, the C.V. and trigger
   > signal.

See my ARP patents article:

  http://www.till.com/articles/arp/patents.html

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com


From music.maker at gte.net  Thu Oct 30 23:58:13 2003
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:58:13 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Pitch -> Voltage Converter
Message-ID: <200310302358.h9UNwDI31832@linux6.lan>

What kind of signal do you wish to use as input?

"The D.U.G." <dug at dugdesign.com> wrote:
>Anybody know of a good pitch -> voltage converter?
>
>d./
>

=========================================================  
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From dug at dugdesign.com  Fri Oct 31 00:09:40 2003
From: dug at dugdesign.com (The D.U.G.)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:09:40 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Pitch -> Voltage Converter
In-Reply-To: <m28yn2e3xf.fsf@till.com>
References: <LAW12-F767EKRuYDlrj00000f5f@hotmail.com> <m28yn2e3xf.fsf@till.com>
Message-ID: <3FA19A34.5030201@dugdesign.com>

Anybody know of a good pitch -> voltage converter?

d./


From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Fri Oct 31 00:36:50 2003
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:36:50 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Keyswitches
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20031030233650.012a70cc@popa.melbpc.org.au>

 
   > I was wondering if anyone had or knew of a circuit that made use
   > of ONE set of switches to generate both, the C.V. and trigger
   > signal.

I imagine one could differentiate the CV & get a spike when it changes.
But you would have to detect when the switch went off, for the 'note off'.

Which you could do, if the keys were supplying a fixed current to 
various distances along a resistor chain, & you looked at current flow.

paul perry Melb AUst



From patchell at cox.net  Fri Oct 31 02:43:23 2003
From: patchell at cox.net (James Patchell)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:43:23 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] discrete VCOs?
In-Reply-To: <20031030112219.25235.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031030064516.GI25109@moo.sysabend.org>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031030174210.00b4bbc8@pop.west.cox.net>

http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell/synthmodules/vco.html

This is one I did.

Although, it may not be discrete enough....if you mean individual 
transistors, then mine is not what you want.

-Jim

At 03:22 AM 10/30/2003 -0800, denshi wrote:
>im interested in playing around with a discrete VCO,
>expo with 1v/oct suitable for modular use.  any
>references?  thanks all!
>
>seth
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
>http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/

         -Jim
***************************************************
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But I can change
If I have to
I guess.

Man's Prayer
Red Green

***************************************************
http://www.oldcrows.net/~patchell

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From ka4hjh at gte.net  Fri Oct 31 03:43:36 2003
From: ka4hjh at gte.net (KA4HJH)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:43:36 -0500
Subject: re [sdiy] [OT] Tube manuals
Message-ID: <p05111a08bbc77beede41@[67.200.137.169]>

Eric's off the list at the moment, dreaming up some new gadget or other.
Here's what he had to say:

At 6:30 PM -0800 10/30/03, metasonix wrote:
>>>> A friend at work has some tube manuals he said he
>>>> would sell me, but neither of us has a clue for
>>>> how much. So I'm wondering if anyone
>>>> has a rough ballpark guess what they might be
>>>> worth?
>>>> RCA ELECTRON TUBE HANDBOOK HB-3
>>>> Dates on the data sheet seem to be 40's and 50's.
>
>A full HB-3 set is worth at least $250. More if updates
>are included (there were a LOT of updates--a full
>set of them occupies a large box).

There you have it. Magnus was right--offer him $50...  8^D
-- 

Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

"There is no Main Street anymore except at Disneyland--and try and buy a
gun there"--Hank Hill


From scottnoanh at peoplepc.com  Fri Oct 31 04:24:05 2003
From: scottnoanh at peoplepc.com (Scott Stites)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:24:05 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Keyswitches
References: <LAW12-F767EKRuYDlrj00000f5f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c39f5e$9f1b1400$52393941@default>

Hi Tim,
I don't know if this will make it to list - I can't seem to get through to
it much anymore.

Anyway, there is such a design here with oodles of info:

http://atlas.csd.net/~rjwsoft/keybrdcontroller.html

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Johnson" <ifixaudio at hotmail.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 9:35 AM
Subject: [sdiy] Keyswitches


> Hi Group,
> How about a dumb newbee question to brighten your day?
> I was wondering if anyone had or knew of a circuit that made use of ONE
set
> of switches to generate both, the C.V. and trigger signal. The organ I am
> going to use for my project only has one switch per key.
> I thought I saw a circuit that did this by superimposing an A.C. signal on
> the ladder resistors. Another circuit detected the A.C. signal (or D.C.
for
> that matter) and generated the trigger while sending the ladder D.C. to
the
> C.V. circuits.
> Am I crazy of would this work?
> Also what would involved in making it play more than one note at a time?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jim
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet
> Service.  Try it FREE for one month!
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
>
>


From tpaddock at seanet.com  Fri Oct 31 04:34:08 2003
From: tpaddock at seanet.com (Toby Paddock)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:34:08 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] [OT] Tube manuals
References: <003c01c39e2c$b4cfe920$15ea4b43@yourjjezkx0elp> <20031029.233302.104032796.cfmd@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <001801c39f5f$fee6bd70$b9ea4b43@yourjjezkx0elp>

Thanks everyone for the advice on the tube manuals. I'll pass 
it all on. Whether or not I end up with them, it's good 
info for us both.

The small number of tubes I'm likely to be 
using doesn't rate a whole set of databooks. 

But ain't they purdy...

Later,
Toby Paddock


From raywilson at comcast.net  Fri Oct 31 05:30:15 2003
From: raywilson at comcast.net (Ray Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:30:15 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Hi List
Message-ID: <BLEJKFHNLOLLEIOLKFANEENICEAA.raywilson@comcast.net>

Forgive the empty email. I am just testing to see if I can send anything to
the list. I have been off of the air and seem to have lost the ability to
post.

Good synthing...

Ray

P.S.
Scott, I had to re-enlist to get mail coming from the list and as you can
see I am trying to post again.



From buchty at cs.tum.edu  Fri Oct 31 07:53:59 2003
From: buchty at cs.tum.edu (Rainer Buchty)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:53:59 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [sdiy] D7811G
In-Reply-To: <20031030064516.GI25109@moo.sysabend.org>
References: <20031030064516.GI25109@moo.sysabend.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310310747280.4798@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>

> Has anyone seen a datasheet for the NEC D7811G?  I think its an 8080
> compatible CPU.  Used in the Juno106 and the current object of my
> torturous intentions, the Akai MS20A.

And I was about to ask if you were hacking the Casio CZ synthesizers...

Problem with that beast is that you really need to convince it the hard
way to reveal its ROM contents. As long as the program never accesses an
external, additional ROM there's hardly a chance that you can read out its
contents. But if the program jumps anywhere above 0x0fff you're set --
just place your own ROM-readout routine there.

You can get the datasheet from
	http://wwwbode.cs.tum.edu/~buchty/upd7811g.pfg

Note that it's the datasheet for the development version with a
piggybacked ROM.

> Before I go through the major hassle of convincing NEC that they made this
> thing that indeed they are still used and that they would gain much Karma
> by photocopying the datasheets, I figured I'd ask...

Actually, I got my copy from Partminer. They tend to hide away more and
more datasheets, but from time to time you still can download an old one
for free.

Rainer



From buchty at cs.tum.edu  Fri Oct 31 07:58:48 2003
From: buchty at cs.tum.edu (Rainer Buchty)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:58:48 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [sdiy] D7811G
In-Reply-To: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DD0@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>
References: <F2907359F3D3E246843DDCA786665653025E6DD0@xch-se-01.se.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310310754330.4798@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>

> I used to have a data book on that processor, but unfortunately I can't
> find it now.  But I do recall that the instruction set is not
> 8080-compatible; IIRC it's more akin to a 6800.

I would say the whole thingy is more Intel/Zilog- than Motorola-inspired
than Motorola, both in mnemonics and design.

While we are at it: Did anybody check if the difference between a CZ101
and the bigger, 16-osc CZ machines is purely software or do they really
contain two sound chips? If it's the first case: I'd like an OS dump...

Rainer


From WeAreAs1 at aol.com  Fri Oct 31 08:10:20 2003
From: WeAreAs1 at aol.com (WeAreAs1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 02:10:20 EST
Subject: [sdiy] D7811G
Message-ID: <15a.26c13ac8.2cd364dc@aol.com>


In a message dated 10/30/03 11:03:10 PM, buchty at cs.tum.edu writes:

<< While we are at it: Did anybody check if the difference between a CZ101
and the bigger, 16-osc CZ machines is purely software or do they really
contain two sound chips? If it's the first case: I'd like an OS dump...

Rainer >>

Hello Rainer,

Sorry, they have two chips (CZ5000, CZ3000, CZ2000s).

Michael Bacich


From peter.ullrich at kapsch.net  Fri Oct 31 08:15:20 2003
From: peter.ullrich at kapsch.net (Ullrich Peter)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:15:20 +0100
Subject: AW: [sdiy] D7811G
Message-ID: <7106E489D7E9DE44B3FDA28A4ECB227601014C96@PUMBAA.kapsch.co.at>

Rainer wrote:

>You can get the datasheet from
>	http://wwwbode.cs.tum.edu/~buchty/upd7811g.pfg

Attention, the link was not correct...

http://wwwbode.cs.tum.edu/~buchty/upd7811g.pdf

Ciao
Peter

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From gilwein at walla.co.il  Fri Oct 31 10:25:33 2003
From: gilwein at walla.co.il (gilwein at walla.co.il)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:25:33 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Where should I look for the problem ?
Message-ID: <200310310925.h9V9PX324340@omail1.walla.co.il>

Hi all !

I've managed to fix most of the problems on my Kawai SX-210,
still one has persisted - for every 8th note that is assigned,
the VCF EG won't work. That means that the Attack and Decay 
(and I guess also the the Sustain and Release) won't respond for any
8th note that is assigned.

Which path should I look for ? I thought I5 or I6 may be wrong...

here are the schematics nad block diagram for the microcomputer PCB, Thanks in advance !

http://grm.m.walla.co.il/briefcase/00f3/g/i/l/w/e/i/n/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/r/200310280930445856/200310280934176312/sx210-2.jpg 

http://grm.m.walla.co.il/briefcase/00f3/g/i/l/w/e/i/n/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/@/r/200310280930445856/200310280932211483/sx210-1.JPG 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com  Fri Oct 31 11:01:32 2003
From: P.Maddox at signal.qinetiq.com (Paul Maddox)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:01:32 -0000
Subject: [sdiy] New tune
Message-ID: <010901c39f95$f6ec2340$a45e23c0@dra.hmg.gb>

Dear all,

  A new tune, care of Mr Zorg, is up on my site, comments welcome ;-
http://www.modulus.synth.net/mymusic/zorg.shtml

  Its done with *JUST* the Chameleon, useing the Farenheit, Australis and
Infiltrator applications..

Paul


From lenham at claramail.com  Fri Oct 31 12:07:47 2003
From: lenham at claramail.com (Stephen Lenham)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:07:47 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Keyswitches
Message-ID: <E1AFX87-0006V4-G4@psyche.clara.net>

Hi Jim,

The original Practical Electronics Minisonic (c.1976) did exactly what 
you describe - it superimposed an HF signal (a few hundred kHz) onto 
the keyboard ladder and detected it to generate a trigger. This enabled 
them to use a stylus keyboard (though they went to a conventional 
keyboard for the Minisonic II).

The Minisonic II article was on the Cloned Analog Gear website but the 
links seemed a bit mixed up when I checked it today...if the worst 
comes to the worst then I have a copy somewhere.

The technique had better work, because I have a half-finished Minisonic 
;-)

As things stand it wouldn't retrigger if a second note was played but (
off the top of my head, without rereading the article) I don't see why 
the same technique used to make duophonic resistor ladder-based 
keyboards (i.e. detect the drop in level caused by pressing two keys 
simultaneously) couldn't be applied to the HF signal too.

I think I'd be reaching for a PIC before I did that though...

Regards,

Steve L. 


> Hi Group,
> How about a dumb newbee question to brighten your day?
> I was wondering if anyone had or knew of a circuit that made use of 
ONE set 
> of switches to generate both, the C.V. and trigger signal. The organ 
I am 
> going to use for my project only has one switch per key.
> I thought I saw a circuit that did this by superimposing an A.C. 
signal on 
> the ladder resistors. Another circuit detected the A.C. signal (or D.
C. for 
> that matter) and generated the trigger while sending the ladder D.C. 
to the 
> C.V. circuits.
> Am I crazy of would this work?
> Also what would involved in making it play more than one note at a 
time?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jim
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up 
Internet 
> Service.  Try it FREE for one month!   http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/
dialup
> 
> 


From anders.sponton at vallnet.nu  Fri Oct 31 12:55:19 2003
From: anders.sponton at vallnet.nu (Anders Sponton)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:55:19 +0100
Subject: SV: [sdiy] Keyswitches
In-Reply-To: <E1AFX87-0006V4-G4@psyche.clara.net>
Message-ID: <000001c39fa5$dff59620$4b97643e@Moog>

Hi 
Yepp, it seems that I did a major fuck-up this time.
For getting the minisonic story, try this (it?s a zipped pdf):
http://omega.tellus.vallentuna.se/anders/msonic.zip

Btw is there anyone out there got a minisonic pcb and frontpanel?

Anders, Sweden
http://omega.tellus.vallentuna.se/anders/




From buchty at cs.tum.edu  Fri Oct 31 16:59:28 2003
From: buchty at cs.tum.edu (Rainer Buchty)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:59:28 +0100 (CET)
Subject: AW: [sdiy] D7811G
In-Reply-To: <7106E489D7E9DE44B3FDA28A4ECB227601014C96@PUMBAA.kapsch.co.at>
References: <7106E489D7E9DE44B3FDA28A4ECB227601014C96@PUMBAA.kapsch.co.at>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0310311659001.23658@atbode100.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>

> >You can get the datasheet from
> >	http://wwwbode.cs.tum.edu/~buchty/upd7811g.pfg
>
> Attention, the link was not correct...
>
> http://wwwbode.cs.tum.edu/~buchty/upd7811g.pdf

Oops. My bad... Thanks for the note!

Rainer


From greg.montalbano at ucop.edu  Fri Oct 31 22:07:12 2003
From: greg.montalbano at ucop.edu (greg montalbano)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:07:12 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] prophet 5 rev 3.2 ROM images needed
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031031130525.01ff7ec0@popserv.ucop.edu>

-- subject says it; V.9.2 -- files are small enough to email.
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

~G


