From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Wed May  1 01:45:35 2013
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:45:35 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] CD405x series power supply question
In-Reply-To: <0B5AC7EE-EC98-4F07-9B73-DE0B21DE85E1@yahoo.com>
References: <0B5AC7EE-EC98-4F07-9B73-DE0B21DE85E1@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5180579F.4000807@oldcrows.net>

   Hey folks, Crow here.  The specs for the 4052 state an supply voltage 
range of 20V for Vee=Vss=0V, and 18V for Vee=-Vdd using split dual 
supplies (+/-9V).  I have a case where I need to bias the Vee down about 
1V, creating a 16V supply interval.  While I think this is safe, I have 
blown these parts up before with supply voltage games and wanted to ask 
if anyone has tinkered with small negative values for Vee on the 
4051/4052/4053.  I usually use the DG508/509 for this sort of thing, but 
those parts are 8 times as pricey as a 4052 and I am using 2 of them on 
a project as part of two VC ADSR circuits.

Crow
/**/



From dlmanley at sonic.net  Wed May  1 01:56:22 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:56:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CD405x series power supply question
Message-ID: <tn893lacko4mv97qh7lwynea.1367366182142@email.android.com>

Doesn't Prophet-5 do this so the analog switches can be on an opamp virtual ground?  I seem to remember a slightly negative supply generated and used for this purpose.

-Dave  

-------- Original Message --------
 From: The Old Crow <oldcrow at oldcrows.net>
 Sent: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 04:45 PM
 To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 CC: 
 Subject: [sdiy] CD405x series power supply question

>   Hey folks, Crow here.  The specs for the 4052 state an supply voltage 
>range of 20V for Vee=Vss=0V, and 18V for Vee=-Vdd using split dual 
>supplies (+/-9V).  I have a case where I need to bias the Vee down about 
>1V, creating a 16V supply interval.  While I think this is safe, I have 
>blown these parts up before with supply voltage games and wanted to ask 
>if anyone has tinkered with small negative values for Vee on the 
>4051/4052/4053.  I usually use the DG508/509 for this sort of thing, but 
>those parts are 8 times as pricey as a 4052 and I am using 2 of them on 
>a project as part of two VC ADSR circuits.
>
>Crow
>/**/
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From davebr at earthlink.net  Wed May  1 02:11:31 2013
From: davebr at earthlink.net (Dave Brown)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 17:11:31 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CD405x series power supply question
In-Reply-To: <5180579F.4000807@oldcrows.net>
References: <0B5AC7EE-EC98-4F07-9B73-DE0B21DE85E1@yahoo.com>
	<5180579F.4000807@oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <000c01ce4600$6f8f7520$4eae5f60$@earthlink.net>

I modified my PAiA MIDI2CV for my modular using a diode drop for the
negative supply on the CD4051 and it works fine.  I used a 4K7 resistor
feeding the diode to create the -0.7V negative supply.
http://modularsynthesis.com/modules/DJB-017/djb017.htm

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of The Old Crow
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 4:46 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] CD405x series power supply question

   Hey folks, Crow here.  The specs for the 4052 state an supply voltage
range of 20V for Vee=Vss=0V, and 18V for Vee=-Vdd using split dual supplies
(+/-9V).  I have a case where I need to bias the Vee down about 1V, creating
a 16V supply interval.  While I think this is safe, I have blown these parts
up before with supply voltage games and wanted to ask if anyone has tinkered
with small negative values for Vee on the 4051/4052/4053.  I usually use the
DG508/509 for this sort of thing, but those parts are 8 times as pricey as a
4052 and I am using 2 of them on a project as part of two VC ADSR circuits.

Crow
/**/





From commodorejohn at gmail.com  Thu May  2 03:10:00 2013
From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 20:10:00 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
Message-ID: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, all! I'm a vintage-computer hobbyist who's been looking at getting
into homebrew synthesis for a while now after getting a Minimoog VST
(wish I could afford the real deal!) and especially after acquiring an
Oberheim polyphonic and getting to play around with real analog
synthesis. However, I'm a lot less experienced with low-level
electronics than I am with computing on a hardware-architectural level
(beyond basic solder-monkey ability,) so a lot of this is pretty new
territory for me, and this seems like a good place to turn to with
some questions:

For starters, that low-level electronics thing. Can someone recommend
me a good getting-started guide to the subject? A reference with a
focus on audio circuits would be nice, but anything that can give me a
solid footing would be great. I don't expect that I'll get good
results if I just start slapping parts together at random :D

Also, some questions about VCOs: I know they have a reputation for
tuning instability, but I've gathered that it's better now than it
used to be. Is that just thanks to higher-tolerance parts being
available at lower costs now, or are newer designs more stable? (Are
fancy newer parts like tantalum or polymer capacitors any good for
audio?) What are some good starter designs? I can easily figure out
how to do a pulse-wave oscillator given a simple sawtooth oscillator,
but how about a triangle or sine-wave?

Thanks!


From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Thu May  2 11:42:28 2013
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 10:42:28 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Spare TR606 case anyone?
Message-ID: <51823504.8000807@bugbrand.co.uk>

Hey, LONG-SHOT!

Does anyone happen to have a spare & not-too-massively-beaten-up 606 
case? (ie. the machine case, not a carry bag)
Actually, need buttons too.. but the case is the most important part.
The reason being, I have an un-housed GUTS of one - still not actually 
working, but hopeful (tracking down by cross-comparing with another + 
going to try the new Quicksilver CPU replacement shortly)

So, if anyone does happen to have one gathering dust.. let's discuss!
Thanks, Tom

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From rominbayol at gmail.com  Thu May  2 13:02:43 2013
From: rominbayol at gmail.com (Robyn Mayol)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 21:02:43 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
In-Reply-To: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00699E30-4B6E-4335-8FBA-B8DFB0639B67@gmail.com>

Hi John,

I am a newbie, just like you except that I've gone a few steps forward. I know exactly how frustrating it can get to try and find the right angle of approach and the right resources. I have found these answers though and the last few weeks have been nothing but fun and experimentation. Here are the media that helped me:

> Can someone recommend me a good getting-started guide to the subject?


Books:
- Electronics Demystified by Stan Gibilisco
It's a book for beginners but it doesn't have much appeal. It's more boring and technical than a "for Dummies" but it is also more precise on simple key circuits. You'll find yourself using it as a reference when you've progressed a little.

- Electronics - all in one - for Dummies by Doug Lowe (of course!)
Like any book in this series it is a bit tacky and full of dad's jokes but it is amazing at getting you to remember things. Very little mathematics provide a very intuitive approach that helped me get along with the maths side more easily.

- The Art of Electronics by Paul Horowitz and Winfield Hill
I actually haven't read this one yet, but it is praised all across the internet for being the absolute bible. Easy enough to be understood and enticing to a beginner but precise enough to be a reference for actually engineers. I'm waiting on mine to ship from England!

- Electronotes (http://electronotes.netfirms.com)
The audio circuits bible. Started as a mailing list back in the early 70's I believe. Some issues are available for free on the website but you can also buy all of them as printed versions. It is amazing because it features commented historical designs by pioneers like Robert Moog and others.

Web:
- Wikipedia
Don't let the technical details impress you, it's a great resource. This for example is the oscillator that you want to build if you want sine waves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wien_bridge_oscillator. This page will just show you the standard circuit though. You need to look up implemented version of these circuits with actual components values but this is the easy part.

- All About Circuits
As an example here is very interesting article on the build of an audio amplifier. Super well explained stuff.

-Doctronics
Knowledge in simple form. Good reference for IC's when you're not sure what something does. http://www.doctronics.co.uk/resources.html

-Aaron's Synth DIY
An amazingly useful list of parts you need to surround yourself with to be able to get going on any circuit at any time of the day or the night: http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~lanterma/sdiy/datasheets/.

- Birth of a synth
Awesome DIY modules. The VCO-1 is a good example: http://www.birthofasynth.com/Thomas_Henry/Pages/VCO-1.html. I still recommend you practice with very simple circuits before starting this kind of project (even though this is a fairly simple circuit).

There's plenty more I could give you but I need to stop writing now. I'll just keep it going in another email later :)

> Are fancy newer parts like tantalum or polymer capacitors any good for
> audio?)
From what I've heard tantalum is recommended for audio and so is polyester. Can't really remember the reasons but there's plenty of articles about this subject.

> What are some good starter designs?
This is a topic that I posted on a forum about some difficulties I had with a circuit. It deals with a lot of novice questions. I remember wishing that it would help other people starting so here is the chance: http://www.electronicspoint.com/compression-resistor-t259150.html. This is the moment of my life when I discovered what op amps were for and how much simpler they make your life. 

The op amp oscillator I ended up building is on page 17 of this document: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm158-n.pdf. I can send you the schematics of my version if you want.

Have fun, buy heaps of general purpose components (refer to the Aaron Diy page). Resistors and capacitors of all sizes and shapes, a bread board and get going!

Robyn

From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Thu May  2 14:07:34 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 14:07:34 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
In-Reply-To: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51825706.8040002@mnet-online.de>

Hello John,

My experience is: developing the circuit is finally not that difficult, 
but creating then the module or synth as a real physical/mechanical 
thing can kill you (making pcbs; making frontplates; choosing the right 
parts, that fit the mechanical requirements;...).

So I recommend to start with some kind of kit based or at least fully 
instructed project, like something from
http://www.cgs.synth.net/
or
http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/
here especially
http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth_new/SOUNDLABMINISYNTH/page1.html
If you managed to build one of these, you may start modifying it, and 
then finally you may add own developments to it.

That way you can start rehearsing the mechanical side (which definitely 
needs to be learned mostly by experience). And you will learn already a 
lot about electronics.

Florian


From niroke at tampabay.rr.com  Thu May  2 14:33:19 2013
From: niroke at tampabay.rr.com (Nicholas Keller)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 08:33:19 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [AH] Spare TR606 case anyone?
In-Reply-To: <51823504.8000807@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <51823504.8000807@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4EC82CE9-7065-4ED9-B426-E8F7B22823E4@tampabay.rr.com>

I had not heard of this upgrade!  Thank you, and sorry I don't have a case for you. 

Nick

Sent from the future

On May 2, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Tom Bugs <admin at bugbrand.co.uk> wrote:

> Hey, LONG-SHOT!
> 
> Does anyone happen to have a spare & not-too-massively-beaten-up 606 case? (ie. the machine case, not a carry bag)
> Actually, need buttons too.. but the case is the most important part.
> The reason being, I have an un-housed GUTS of one - still not actually working, but hopeful (tracking down by cross-comparing with another + going to try the new Quicksilver CPU replacement shortly)
> 
> So, if anyone does happen to have one gathering dust.. let's discuss!
> Thanks, Tom
> 
> -- 
> BugBrand LTD
> UK company No. 07199808
> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
> 1 Ninetree Hill
> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
> United Kingdom
> www.bugbrand.co.uk
> 


From 21pointy at tpg.com.au  Thu May  2 14:57:11 2013
From: 21pointy at tpg.com.au (Adam Inglis)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 22:57:11 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
In-Reply-To: <51825706.8040002@mnet-online.de>
References: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<51825706.8040002@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <95CBD68D-26E5-4ABE-8107-E18BD233BA75@tpg.com.au>

Well said Florian - so true, yet I hadn't thought of it like that  
before.

My 2 cents - when I bought Horowitz and Hill, I also bought the  
student manual that was written for it, and sat down at my bench and  
completed the projects described in the first few chapters to get my  
head 'round how transistors, FETs and op-amps actually behaved on the  
breadboard and in circuits.

Still haven't got past chapter five, but its helped me fix a hell of  
lot of things in this old studio....

cheers
Adam

On 02/05/2013, at 10:07 PM, Florian Anwander wrote:

> Hello John,
>
> My experience is: developing the circuit is finally not that  
> difficult, but creating then the module or synth as a real physical/ 
> mechanical thing can kill you (making pcbs; making frontplates;  
> choosing the right parts, that fit the mechanical requirements;...).
>
> So I recommend to start with some kind of kit based or at least  
> fully instructed project, like something from
> http://www.cgs.synth.net/
> or
> http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/
> here especially
> http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth_new/SOUNDLABMINISYNTH/page1.html
> If you managed to build one of these, you may start modifying it,  
> and then finally you may add own developments to it.
>
> That way you can start rehearsing the mechanical side (which  
> definitely needs to be learned mostly by experience). And you will  
> learn already a lot about electronics.
>
> Florian
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>



From jdec at mindspring.com  Thu May  2 15:27:00 2013
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 09:27:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
Message-ID: <14767896.1367501220881.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

For books I would recommend the timely classic by Hal Chamberlin
"Musical Applications of Microprocessors"

Don't let the name fool you as I covers analogue, digital and
analog/digital hybrid synthesis:

http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/book/MAM.jpg

It's long out-of-print but fortunately I have mint, unread,
new-old-stock, 2nd edition copies still available for sale 
($50+shipping)

Contact me privately if you're interested.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
>From: John Ames <commodorejohn at gmail.com>
>Sent: May 1, 2013 9:10 PM
>To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
>
>Hi, all! I'm a vintage-computer hobbyist who's been looking at getting
>into homebrew synthesis for a while now after getting a Minimoog VST
>(wish I could afford the real deal!) and especially after acquiring an
>Oberheim polyphonic and getting to play around with real analog
>synthesis. However, I'm a lot less experienced with low-level
>electronics than I am with computing on a hardware-architectural level
>(beyond basic solder-monkey ability,) so a lot of this is pretty new
>territory for me, and this seems like a good place to turn to with
>some questions:
>
>For starters, that low-level electronics thing. Can someone recommend
>me a good getting-started guide to the subject? A reference with a
>focus on audio circuits would be nice, but anything that can give me a
>solid footing would be great. I don't expect that I'll get good
>results if I just start slapping parts together at random :D
>
>Also, some questions about VCOs: I know they have a reputation for
>tuning instability, but I've gathered that it's better now than it
>used to be. Is that just thanks to higher-tolerance parts being
>available at lower costs now, or are newer designs more stable? (Are
>fancy newer parts like tantalum or polymer capacitors any good for
>audio?) What are some good starter designs? I can easily figure out
>how to do a pulse-wave oscillator given a simple sawtooth oscillator,
>but how about a triangle or sine-wave?
>
>Thanks!
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy





From bill at audioenterprise.com  Thu May  2 17:40:14 2013
From: bill at audioenterprise.com (Bill Thompson)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 11:40:14 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
In-Reply-To: <14767896.1367501220881.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14767896.1367501220881.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <0F00A9E4-EDD2-4DAF-9029-7826E33995E6@audioenterprise.com>

Couldn't agree more on both books! But, I'd probably start with Hill & Horawitz, at least the first few chapters, and then dig into Chamberlain. There are also texts by Jim Williams that I'd call essential reading. And don't overlook IC app books!!!

Sent from my iPhone

On May 2, 2013, at 9:27 AM, BrightBoy <jdec at mindspring.com> wrote:

> For books I would recommend the timely classic by Hal Chamberlin
> "Musical Applications of Microprocessors"
> 
> Don't let the name fool you as I covers analogue, digital and
> analog/digital hybrid synthesis:
> 
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jdec/book/MAM.jpg
> 
> It's long out-of-print but fortunately I have mint, unread,
> new-old-stock, 2nd edition copies still available for sale 
> ($50+shipping)
> 
> Contact me privately if you're interested.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Ames <commodorejohn at gmail.com>
>> Sent: May 1, 2013 9:10 PM
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
>> 
>> Hi, all! I'm a vintage-computer hobbyist who's been looking at getting
>> into homebrew synthesis for a while now after getting a Minimoog VST
>> (wish I could afford the real deal!) and especially after acquiring an
>> Oberheim polyphonic and getting to play around with real analog
>> synthesis. However, I'm a lot less experienced with low-level
>> electronics than I am with computing on a hardware-architectural level
>> (beyond basic solder-monkey ability,) so a lot of this is pretty new
>> territory for me, and this seems like a good place to turn to with
>> some questions:
>> 
>> For starters, that low-level electronics thing. Can someone recommend
>> me a good getting-started guide to the subject? A reference with a
>> focus on audio circuits would be nice, but anything that can give me a
>> solid footing would be great. I don't expect that I'll get good
>> results if I just start slapping parts together at random :D
>> 
>> Also, some questions about VCOs: I know they have a reputation for
>> tuning instability, but I've gathered that it's better now than it
>> used to be. Is that just thanks to higher-tolerance parts being
>> available at lower costs now, or are newer designs more stable? (Are
>> fancy newer parts like tantalum or polymer capacitors any good for
>> audio?) What are some good starter designs? I can easily figure out
>> how to do a pulse-wave oscillator given a simple sawtooth oscillator,
>> but how about a triangle or sine-wave?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From nvawter at media.mit.edu  Thu May  2 22:36:16 2013
From: nvawter at media.mit.edu (nvawter at media.mit.edu)
Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 16:36:16 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [QiX] ToneCore Kits
In-Reply-To: <1B80973C-2A22-459A-94CD-E2837176CF1B@earthlink.net>
References: <B8E6C29A-680F-4344-9748-CDFD39CF4546@earthlink.net>
	<CADm3=9Q79UhezdCoscudmnHZuhx=G7hBQ2n9WEYVDyV7PvBb=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<04E18B14-CCD1-4890-81AC-6A09EF4963BD@earthlink.net>
	<1B80973C-2A22-459A-94CD-E2837176CF1B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20130502163616.425977c034yx6clc@webmail.media.mit.edu>


Heya Terry,

I'd be interested in 1 or 2 more ToneCores, but I'm really having  
trouble with the tools.  I got a few errors installing Symphony Studio  
on Windows 7 64-bit.  I tried to run it anyway and it won't start  
up...  It leaves a log file in  
C:\symphony-studio\eclipse\configuration\ (huge number).log.

The log file is mainly java messages.  I think the relevant one is:
org.osgi.framework.BundleException: The bundle could not be resolved.  
Reason: Missing Constraint: Bundle-RequiredExecutionEnvironment:  
CDC-1.0/Foundation-1.0,J2SE-1.3

iiuc, CDC is part of the USB communication.   Anyway, if you or anyone  
else knows how to run this on Windows 7, it would be groovy and I  
would love to get into the Tone Core development.  I have one already  
at home, but had these same errors about 18 months ago when I first  
tried it...   Since then I've been working with FV-1 from Spin Semi  
and my own system, the Aristocrat (which is based on STM32F1 from  
leaflabs and the AudioCodecShield from Open Music Labs).
http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/Aristocrat


Quoting Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>:

> HiPaul and copied folks,
>
> I visited Marcus Ryle , owner of Line 6 yesterday, and he indicated  
> the the Tone Core pedal is still in production, but the Developer  
> version, is not going forward past the inventory on hand of 123  
> units and 488 UI modules.
>
> Marcus indicated that he would be willing to work out a pretty  
> favorable deal if I wanted to take some or all of this inventory of  
> Developer Tone Core products off of their hands.
>
> Either way, there is inventory that is looking for a home to hackers  
> of Audio and MCU.
>
> Paul may have comments he would like to list in regards to the Audio  
> Weaver support tool chain. I will let him speak for himself on DSP  
> Concepts matters.
>
> best regards,
>
> Terry
>
>
> On May 1, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul and copied list,
>>
>> Freescale put the DSP56364 on a End of life notice is my guess , as  
>> it was used mostly by Line 6 these days.
>>
>> The need for a replacement to the DSP56364 is still there, as it  
>> was a 100 MHz / 100 mips processor with a 9S08JM64 mcu  controlling  
>> the DSP.
>>
>> A 100 to 150 MHz Cortex M4 should be able to handle most simple  
>> Guitar effects as long as somebody cares for simpler DSP  
>> performance on an ARM based design.
>>
>>
>> Terry Shultz
>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2013, at 10:15 PM, Paul Maddox <yo at vacoloco.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Seems a shame but inevitable I guess.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1 May 2013 01:35, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Guys,
>>>
>>> Here is the reply I got from Marcus at Line 6:
>>>
>>>
>>> "As for the ToneCore developer kits, we have 123 left in stock,  
>>> with no plans to build any more.
>>> We also have an additional 488 programmable modules (the UI  
>>> section, of which one is also included with each developer kit).
>>> If you'd like to purchase any or all of them, make us an offer and  
>>> I'll see what I can do."
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry Shultz
>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Qix mailing list
>>> Qix at synth.net
>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Qix mailing list
>>> Qix at synth.net
>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Qix mailing list
>> Qix at synth.net
>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>
>




From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Fri May  3 00:09:49 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Thx1138)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 15:09:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] [QiX] ToneCore Kits
In-Reply-To: <20130502163616.425977c034yx6clc@webmail.media.mit.edu>
References: <B8E6C29A-680F-4344-9748-CDFD39CF4546@earthlink.net>
	<CADm3=9Q79UhezdCoscudmnHZuhx=G7hBQ2n9WEYVDyV7PvBb=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<04E18B14-CCD1-4890-81AC-6A09EF4963BD@earthlink.net>
	<1B80973C-2A22-459A-94CD-E2837176CF1B@earthlink.net>
	<20130502163616.425977c034yx6clc@webmail.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <14D51696-289E-4982-B361-6205F5959936@earthlink.net>

Hi all

The symphony studio was not tested on 64 bit is or beyond wince.

Sorry but new eclipse support updates either.

It is what it is.

Terry

Sent from my iPhone

On May 2, 2013, at 1:36 PM, nvawter at media.mit.edu wrote:

> 
> Heya Terry,
> 
> I'd be interested in 1 or 2 more ToneCores, but I'm really having trouble with the tools.  I got a few errors installing Symphony Studio on Windows 7 64-bit.  I tried to run it anyway and it won't start up...  It leaves a log file in C:\symphony-studio\eclipse\configuration\ (huge number).log.
> 
> The log file is mainly java messages.  I think the relevant one is:
> org.osgi.framework.BundleException: The bundle could not be resolved. Reason: Missing Constraint: Bundle-RequiredExecutionEnvironment: CDC-1.0/Foundation-1.0,J2SE-1.3
> 
> iiuc, CDC is part of the USB communication.   Anyway, if you or anyone else knows how to run this on Windows 7, it would be groovy and I would love to get into the Tone Core development.  I have one already at home, but had these same errors about 18 months ago when I first tried it...   Since then I've been working with FV-1 from Spin Semi and my own system, the Aristocrat (which is based on STM32F1 from leaflabs and the AudioCodecShield from Open Music Labs).
> http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/Aristocrat
> 
> 
> Quoting Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>:
> 
>> HiPaul and copied folks,
>> 
>> I visited Marcus Ryle , owner of Line 6 yesterday, and he indicated the the Tone Core pedal is still in production, but the Developer version, is not going forward past the inventory on hand of 123 units and 488 UI modules.
>> 
>> Marcus indicated that he would be willing to work out a pretty favorable deal if I wanted to take some or all of this inventory of Developer Tone Core products off of their hands.
>> 
>> Either way, there is inventory that is looking for a home to hackers of Audio and MCU.
>> 
>> Paul may have comments he would like to list in regards to the Audio Weaver support tool chain. I will let him speak for himself on DSP Concepts matters.
>> 
>> best regards,
>> 
>> Terry
>> 
>> 
>> On May 1, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Paul and copied list,
>>> 
>>> Freescale put the DSP56364 on a End of life notice is my guess , as it was used mostly by Line 6 these days.
>>> 
>>> The need for a replacement to the DSP56364 is still there, as it was a 100 MHz / 100 mips processor with a 9S08JM64 mcu  controlling the DSP.
>>> 
>>> A 100 to 150 MHz Cortex M4 should be able to handle most simple Guitar effects as long as somebody cares for simpler DSP performance on an ARM based design.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Terry Shultz
>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 30, 2013, at 10:15 PM, Paul Maddox <yo at vacoloco.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Seems a shame but inevitable I guess.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 1 May 2013 01:35, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>> 
>>>> Here is the reply I got from Marcus at Line 6:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "As for the ToneCore developer kits, we have 123 left in stock, with no plans to build any more.
>>>> We also have an additional 488 programmable modules (the UI section, of which one is also included with each developer kit).
>>>> If you'd like to purchase any or all of them, make us an offer and I'll see what I can do."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Qix mailing list
>>>> Qix at synth.net
>>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Qix mailing list
>>>> Qix at synth.net
>>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Qix mailing list
>>> Qix at synth.net
>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
> 
> 


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Fri May  3 00:13:53 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Thx1138)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 15:13:53 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] [QiX] ToneCore Kits
In-Reply-To: <14D51696-289E-4982-B361-6205F5959936@earthlink.net>
References: <B8E6C29A-680F-4344-9748-CDFD39CF4546@earthlink.net>
	<CADm3=9Q79UhezdCoscudmnHZuhx=G7hBQ2n9WEYVDyV7PvBb=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<04E18B14-CCD1-4890-81AC-6A09EF4963BD@earthlink.net>
	<1B80973C-2A22-459A-94CD-E2837176CF1B@earthlink.net>
	<20130502163616.425977c034yx6clc@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<14D51696-289E-4982-B361-6205F5959936@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BD8886B8-9E05-47FC-B746-F249B15F82F3@earthlink.net>

Doggone autocorrect

I meant winXP 32 bit mode.

Terry

Sent from my iPhone

On May 2, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Thx1138 <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> The symphony studio was not tested on 64 bit is or beyond wince.
> 
> Sorry but new eclipse support updates either.
> 
> It is what it is.
> 
> Terry
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On May 2, 2013, at 1:36 PM, nvawter at media.mit.edu wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Heya Terry,
>> 
>> I'd be interested in 1 or 2 more ToneCores, but I'm really having trouble with the tools.  I got a few errors installing Symphony Studio on Windows 7 64-bit.  I tried to run it anyway and it won't start up...  It leaves a log file in C:\symphony-studio\eclipse\configuration\ (huge number).log.
>> 
>> The log file is mainly java messages.  I think the relevant one is:
>> org.osgi.framework.BundleException: The bundle could not be resolved. Reason: Missing Constraint: Bundle-RequiredExecutionEnvironment: CDC-1.0/Foundation-1.0,J2SE-1.3
>> 
>> iiuc, CDC is part of the USB communication.   Anyway, if you or anyone else knows how to run this on Windows 7, it would be groovy and I would love to get into the Tone Core development.  I have one already at home, but had these same errors about 18 months ago when I first tried it...   Since then I've been working with FV-1 from Spin Semi and my own system, the Aristocrat (which is based on STM32F1 from leaflabs and the AudioCodecShield from Open Music Labs).
>> http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/Aristocrat
>> 
>> 
>> Quoting Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>:
>> 
>>> HiPaul and copied folks,
>>> 
>>> I visited Marcus Ryle , owner of Line 6 yesterday, and he indicated the the Tone Core pedal is still in production, but the Developer version, is not going forward past the inventory on hand of 123 units and 488 UI modules.
>>> 
>>> Marcus indicated that he would be willing to work out a pretty favorable deal if I wanted to take some or all of this inventory of Developer Tone Core products off of their hands.
>>> 
>>> Either way, there is inventory that is looking for a home to hackers of Audio and MCU.
>>> 
>>> Paul may have comments he would like to list in regards to the Audio Weaver support tool chain. I will let him speak for himself on DSP Concepts matters.
>>> 
>>> best regards,
>>> 
>>> Terry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 1, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Paul and copied list,
>>>> 
>>>> Freescale put the DSP56364 on a End of life notice is my guess , as it was used mostly by Line 6 these days.
>>>> 
>>>> The need for a replacement to the DSP56364 is still there, as it was a 100 MHz / 100 mips processor with a 9S08JM64 mcu  controlling the DSP.
>>>> 
>>>> A 100 to 150 MHz Cortex M4 should be able to handle most simple Guitar effects as long as somebody cares for simpler DSP performance on an ARM based design.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 30, 2013, at 10:15 PM, Paul Maddox <yo at vacoloco.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Seems a shame but inevitable I guess.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 1 May 2013 01:35, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here is the reply I got from Marcus at Line 6:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "As for the ToneCore developer kits, we have 123 left in stock, with no plans to build any more.
>>>>> We also have an additional 488 programmable modules (the UI section, of which one is also included with each developer kit).
>>>>> If you'd like to purchase any or all of them, make us an offer and I'll see what I can do."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Qix mailing list
>>>>> Qix at synth.net
>>>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Qix mailing list
>>>>> Qix at synth.net
>>>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Qix mailing list
>>>> Qix at synth.net
>>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Qix mailing list
> Qix at synth.net
> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net


From nvawter at media.mit.edu  Fri May  3 16:02:30 2013
From: nvawter at media.mit.edu (nvawter at media.mit.edu)
Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 10:02:30 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [QiX] ToneCore Kits
In-Reply-To: <BD8886B8-9E05-47FC-B746-F249B15F82F3@earthlink.net>
References: <B8E6C29A-680F-4344-9748-CDFD39CF4546@earthlink.net>
	<CADm3=9Q79UhezdCoscudmnHZuhx=G7hBQ2n9WEYVDyV7PvBb=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<04E18B14-CCD1-4890-81AC-6A09EF4963BD@earthlink.net>
	<1B80973C-2A22-459A-94CD-E2837176CF1B@earthlink.net>
	<20130502163616.425977c034yx6clc@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<14D51696-289E-4982-B361-6205F5959936@earthlink.net>
	<BD8886B8-9E05-47FC-B746-F249B15F82F3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20130503100230.178225vn740oxf92@webmail.media.mit.edu>


OKay, not ideal, but...  to get special results, sometimes it's  
necessary to do special things, so I poked around and this looks like  
the cheapest place to get windows xp, 32-bit edition:
http://www.productquest.net/microsoft-window-xp-pro-student.html
I just ordered a copy.  I have an extra hard drive I can install it  
on.  It's a small price to pay for the ability to use the Tone Core  
HW.  It really is a completely solid pedal hardware and I already have  
three of the modules.
I'll give an update when it arrives.

-Noah!


Quoting Thx1138 <thx1138 at earthlink.net>:

> Doggone autocorrect
>
> I meant winXP 32 bit mode.
>
> Terry
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 2, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Thx1138 <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> The symphony studio was not tested on 64 bit is or beyond wince.
>>
>> Sorry but new eclipse support updates either.
>>
>> It is what it is.
>>
>> Terry
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 2, 2013, at 1:36 PM, nvawter at media.mit.edu wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Heya Terry,
>>>
>>> I'd be interested in 1 or 2 more ToneCores, but I'm really having  
>>> trouble with the tools.  I got a few errors installing Symphony  
>>> Studio on Windows 7 64-bit.  I tried to run it anyway and it won't  
>>> start up...  It leaves a log file in  
>>> C:\symphony-studio\eclipse\configuration\ (huge number).log.
>>>
>>> The log file is mainly java messages.  I think the relevant one is:
>>> org.osgi.framework.BundleException: The bundle could not be  
>>> resolved. Reason: Missing Constraint:  
>>> Bundle-RequiredExecutionEnvironment: CDC-1.0/Foundation-1.0,J2SE-1.3
>>>
>>> iiuc, CDC is part of the USB communication.   Anyway, if you or  
>>> anyone else knows how to run this on Windows 7, it would be groovy  
>>> and I would love to get into the Tone Core development.  I have  
>>> one already at home, but had these same errors about 18 months ago  
>>> when I first tried it...   Since then I've been working with FV-1  
>>> from Spin Semi and my own system, the Aristocrat (which is based  
>>> on STM32F1 from leaflabs and the AudioCodecShield from Open Music  
>>> Labs).
>>> http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/Aristocrat
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>:
>>>
>>>> HiPaul and copied folks,
>>>>
>>>> I visited Marcus Ryle , owner of Line 6 yesterday, and he  
>>>> indicated the the Tone Core pedal is still in production, but the  
>>>> Developer version, is not going forward past the inventory on  
>>>> hand of 123 units and 488 UI modules.
>>>>
>>>> Marcus indicated that he would be willing to work out a pretty  
>>>> favorable deal if I wanted to take some or all of this inventory  
>>>> of Developer Tone Core products off of their hands.
>>>>
>>>> Either way, there is inventory that is looking for a home to  
>>>> hackers of Audio and MCU.
>>>>
>>>> Paul may have comments he would like to list in regards to the  
>>>> Audio Weaver support tool chain. I will let him speak for himself  
>>>> on DSP Concepts matters.
>>>>
>>>> best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Terry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 1, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Paul and copied list,
>>>>>
>>>>> Freescale put the DSP56364 on a End of life notice is my guess ,  
>>>>> as it was used mostly by Line 6 these days.
>>>>>
>>>>> The need for a replacement to the DSP56364 is still there, as it  
>>>>> was a 100 MHz / 100 mips processor with a 9S08JM64 mcu   
>>>>> controlling the DSP.
>>>>>
>>>>> A 100 to 150 MHz Cortex M4 should be able to handle most simple  
>>>>> Guitar effects as long as somebody cares for simpler DSP  
>>>>> performance on an ARM based design.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 30, 2013, at 10:15 PM, Paul Maddox <yo at vacoloco.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems a shame but inevitable I guess.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1 May 2013 01:35, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the reply I got from Marcus at Line 6:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "As for the ToneCore developer kits, we have 123 left in stock,  
>>>>>> with no plans to build any more.
>>>>>> We also have an additional 488 programmable modules (the UI  
>>>>>> section, of which one is also included with each developer kit).
>>>>>> If you'd like to purchase any or all of them, make us an offer  
>>>>>> and I'll see what I can do."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Qix mailing list
>>>>>> Qix at synth.net
>>>>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Qix mailing list
>>>>>> Qix at synth.net
>>>>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Qix mailing list
>>>>> Qix at synth.net
>>>>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Qix mailing list
>> Qix at synth.net
>> http://synth.net/mailman/listinfo/qix_synth.net
>




From barryklein at cox.net  Fri May  3 16:24:59 2013
From: barryklein at cox.net (Barry Klein)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 07:24:59 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] PSOC4
Message-ID: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>

Cypress PSOC4 kits are becoming available for $25:

http://www.element14.com/community/community/knode/dev_platforms_kits/elemen
t14_dev_kits/psoc4_pioneer_kit

Another kit for my closet collection!

Barry





From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Fri May  3 16:55:59 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 07:55:59 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] PSOC4
In-Reply-To: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
Message-ID: <FBB3F124-8AEB-4AF0-B0E6-E5B43E05577F@earthlink.net>

Hi Barry,

I got a free psoc5 board at arrow/cypress seminar. A $99 value and product for my closet as well.

Best regards,

Terry

Sent from my iPad

On May 3, 2013, at 7:24 AM, "Barry Klein" <barryklein at cox.net> wrote:

> Cypress PSOC4 kits are becoming available for $25:
> 
> http://www.element14.com/community/community/knode/dev_platforms_kits/elemen
> t14_dev_kits/psoc4_pioneer_kit
> 
> Another kit for my closet collection!
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From niroke at tampabay.rr.com  Fri May  3 17:25:12 2013
From: niroke at tampabay.rr.com (Nicholas Keller)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 11:25:12 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] PSOC4
In-Reply-To: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B9321624-E279-4493-9932-3C41FA23C5FC@tampabay.rr.com>

Link doesn't work, even when I copy the whole link and paste in browser 

Sent from the future

On May 3, 2013, at 10:24 AM, "Barry Klein" <barryklein at cox.net> wrote:

> http://www.element14.com/community/community/knode/dev_platforms_kits/elemen
> t14_dev_kits/psoc4_pioneer_kit


From nvawter at media.mit.edu  Fri May  3 17:37:35 2013
From: nvawter at media.mit.edu (nvawter at media.mit.edu)
Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 11:37:35 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Ming Mecca = videogame synth?!
In-Reply-To: <FBB3F124-8AEB-4AF0-B0E6-E5B43E05577F@earthlink.net>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
	<FBB3F124-8AEB-4AF0-B0E6-E5B43E05577F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20130503113735.19880or6rh7x3o3j@webmail.media.mit.edu>


A friend just forwarded this to me...  I don't know what it is really yet,
It just looks like a EuroRack modular but is a videogame development system?!?

No idea, but forwarding for massive potential / crossover inspiration.

http://www.specialstagesystems.com/system-overview/


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May  3 17:56:57 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 17:56:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Ming Mecca = videogame synth?!
In-Reply-To: <20130503113735.19880or6rh7x3o3j@webmail.media.mit.edu>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
	<FBB3F124-8AEB-4AF0-B0E6-E5B43E05577F@earthlink.net>
	<20130503113735.19880or6rh7x3o3j@webmail.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUi-WRwv_520-jHnEcF8aXpSAyUbuHaNGTdgZ13neBFGQQ@mail.gmail.com>

Noah,
this is majorly cool. Possibly the first commercial modular video
synth since the 80s? I gotta say, wow.

Cheers,
D.

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:37 PM,  <nvawter at media.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> A friend just forwarded this to me...  I don't know what it is really yet,
> It just looks like a EuroRack modular but is a videogame development
> system?!?
>
> No idea, but forwarding for massive potential / crossover inspiration.
>
> http://www.specialstagesystems.com/system-overview/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From jasonnanna at gmail.com  Fri May  3 18:54:25 2013
From: jasonnanna at gmail.com (Jason Nanna)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 11:54:25 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Ming Mecca = videogame synth?!
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUi-WRwv_520-jHnEcF8aXpSAyUbuHaNGTdgZ13neBFGQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
	<FBB3F124-8AEB-4AF0-B0E6-E5B43E05577F@earthlink.net>
	<20130503113735.19880or6rh7x3o3j@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<CA+9GZUi-WRwv_520-jHnEcF8aXpSAyUbuHaNGTdgZ13neBFGQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH8amKv4dYm0zXkVBjx2HtQ=hURXHsYR8cMTfOjMNBFgsw1Xuw@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps you're not familiar with LZX Industries:

http://lzxindustries.com/

They've been putting together a modular video synthesis platform for a
couple of years now.

I'm excited for the Ming Mecca, I think it's an interesting take on
synthesis in general...  Modular video game development system would
be one way to put it.  It has gravity, collision detection,
voltage-controlled tiles and maps, and can interface with NES-style
controllers.  Runs on a Parallax Propeller.

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 10:56 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Noah,
> this is majorly cool. Possibly the first commercial modular video
> synth since the 80s? I gotta say, wow.
>
> Cheers,
> D.
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:37 PM,  <nvawter at media.mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> A friend just forwarded this to me...  I don't know what it is really yet,
>> It just looks like a EuroRack modular but is a videogame development
>> system?!?
>>
>> No idea, but forwarding for massive potential / crossover inspiration.
>>
>> http://www.specialstagesystems.com/system-overview/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com  Fri May  3 19:11:06 2013
From: Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com (Barry Klein)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 17:11:06 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] PSOC4
In-Reply-To: <B9321624-E279-4493-9932-3C41FA23C5FC@tampabay.rr.com>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
	<B9321624-E279-4493-9932-3C41FA23C5FC@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <83EEDB9AA00D6B449EB022CF4EFEC3236E3AF731@wdscexmb03.sc.wdc.com>

Take the ">" out of this so it says "element": /elemen> t14_de
Works here.


-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Nicholas Keller
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 8:25 AM
To: Barry Klein
Cc: SDIY List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] PSOC4

Link doesn't work, even when I copy the whole link and paste in browser 

Sent from the future

On May 3, 2013, at 10:24 AM, "Barry Klein" <barryklein at cox.net> wrote:

> http://www.element14.com/community/community/knode/dev_platforms_kits/elemen
> t14_dev_kits/psoc4_pioneer_kit
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May  3 19:16:40 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 19:16:40 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Ming Mecca = videogame synth?!
In-Reply-To: <CAH8amKv4dYm0zXkVBjx2HtQ=hURXHsYR8cMTfOjMNBFgsw1Xuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
	<FBB3F124-8AEB-4AF0-B0E6-E5B43E05577F@earthlink.net>
	<20130503113735.19880or6rh7x3o3j@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<CA+9GZUi-WRwv_520-jHnEcF8aXpSAyUbuHaNGTdgZ13neBFGQQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAH8amKv4dYm0zXkVBjx2HtQ=hURXHsYR8cMTfOjMNBFgsw1Xuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgwowipcF+PSdnT1RhNgsNG11NTmkiGuRpsD3gs3AJdCw@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, that's really cool.

I'll have a look at it over the weekend.. thanks for the info!

Cheers,
D.

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Jason Nanna <jasonnanna at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you're not familiar with LZX Industries:
>
> http://lzxindustries.com/
>
> They've been putting together a modular video synthesis platform for a
> couple of years now.
>
> I'm excited for the Ming Mecca, I think it's an interesting take on
> synthesis in general...  Modular video game development system would
> be one way to put it.  It has gravity, collision detection,
> voltage-controlled tiles and maps, and can interface with NES-style
> controllers.  Runs on a Parallax Propeller.
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 10:56 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Noah,
>> this is majorly cool. Possibly the first commercial modular video
>> synth since the 80s? I gotta say, wow.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:37 PM,  <nvawter at media.mit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> A friend just forwarded this to me...  I don't know what it is really yet,
>>> It just looks like a EuroRack modular but is a videogame development
>>> system?!?
>>>
>>> No idea, but forwarding for massive potential / crossover inspiration.
>>>
>>> http://www.specialstagesystems.com/system-overview/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From niroke at tampabay.rr.com  Fri May  3 19:17:38 2013
From: niroke at tampabay.rr.com (Nicholas Keller)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 13:17:38 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] PSOC4
In-Reply-To: <83EEDB9AA00D6B449EB022CF4EFEC3236E3AF731@wdscexmb03.sc.wdc.com>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
	<B9321624-E279-4493-9932-3C41FA23C5FC@tampabay.rr.com>
	<83EEDB9AA00D6B449EB022CF4EFEC3236E3AF731@wdscexmb03.sc.wdc.com>
Message-ID: <E4F15298-1D07-4A44-8147-C43F8208322E@tampabay.rr.com>

Thanks Barry, 

That fixed it.  I didn't see that space in there before.  The space broke the link into two parts, and when I copied and pasted the two parts together, the space was still there.  

Nick



On May 3, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Barry Klein <Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com> wrote:

>> http://www.element14.com/community/community/knode/dev_platforms_kits/elemen
>> t14_dev_kits/psoc4_pioneer_kit


From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Sat May  4 01:04:34 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 19:04:34 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Ming Mecca = videogame synth?!
In-Reply-To: <CAH8amKv4dYm0zXkVBjx2HtQ=hURXHsYR8cMTfOjMNBFgsw1Xuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
	<FBB3F124-8AEB-4AF0-B0E6-E5B43E05577F@earthlink.net>
	<20130503113735.19880or6rh7x3o3j@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<CA+9GZUi-WRwv_520-jHnEcF8aXpSAyUbuHaNGTdgZ13neBFGQQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAH8amKv4dYm0zXkVBjx2HtQ=hURXHsYR8cMTfOjMNBFgsw1Xuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP461B864ED7AB0819FF5C201C8BE0@phx.gbl>

Wow!!!!
Arcade synth

Sent from my iPhone

On May 3, 2013, at 12:54 PM, Jason Nanna <jasonnanna at gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps you're not familiar with LZX Industries:
> 
> http://lzxindustries.com/
> 
> They've been putting together a modular video synthesis platform for a
> couple of years now.
> 
> I'm excited for the Ming Mecca, I think it's an interesting take on
> synthesis in general...  Modular video game development system would
> be one way to put it.  It has gravity, collision detection,
> voltage-controlled tiles and maps, and can interface with NES-style
> controllers.  Runs on a Parallax Propeller.
> 
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 10:56 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Noah,
>> this is majorly cool. Possibly the first commercial modular video
>> synth since the 80s? I gotta say, wow.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>> 
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:37 PM,  <nvawter at media.mit.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A friend just forwarded this to me...  I don't know what it is really yet,
>>> It just looks like a EuroRack modular but is a videogame development
>>> system?!?
>>> 
>>> No idea, but forwarding for massive potential / crossover inspiration.
>>> 
>>> http://www.specialstagesystems.com/system-overview/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May  4 01:47:58 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 01:47:58 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Ming Mecca = videogame synth?!
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP461B864ED7AB0819FF5C201C8BE0@phx.gbl>
References: <001201ce4809$fe503d20$faf0b760$@cox.net>
	<FBB3F124-8AEB-4AF0-B0E6-E5B43E05577F@earthlink.net>
	<20130503113735.19880or6rh7x3o3j@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<CA+9GZUi-WRwv_520-jHnEcF8aXpSAyUbuHaNGTdgZ13neBFGQQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAH8amKv4dYm0zXkVBjx2HtQ=hURXHsYR8cMTfOjMNBFgsw1Xuw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP461B864ED7AB0819FF5C201C8BE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgj__AMP60rtd+FxDukJ0L54s-RFQTLXgFfeX00sH82RA@mail.gmail.com>

Had a closer look. Love the idea and the possibilities.

One way I would improve upon it: part it out into separate modules.
Have a module to add sprites, have one to add parallax, one to mix
layers, one to do textures that can later be put into the parallax...
lots of fun could be had this way! You could have an image input into
the sprite module, so that you can put anything on a sprite. For
example, a video animation playing from youtube.. Or the output image
of the positioned sprite itself, for that recursive "fractal" effect
:) Another module for world geometry and collision.. another for just
positioning stuff, and so on.

Also, another thought: notice the part where he creates "world
geometry". I would love if we could put the output on a touchpad, and
have this geometry respond to touch, and send out voltages. Voltage
controlled user interfaces... fun or fun?

D.

On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Dan Snazelle <subjectivity at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Wow!!!!
> Arcade synth
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 3, 2013, at 12:54 PM, Jason Nanna <jasonnanna at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps you're not familiar with LZX Industries:
>>
>> http://lzxindustries.com/
>>
>> They've been putting together a modular video synthesis platform for a
>> couple of years now.
>>
>> I'm excited for the Ming Mecca, I think it's an interesting take on
>> synthesis in general...  Modular video game development system would
>> be one way to put it.  It has gravity, collision detection,
>> voltage-controlled tiles and maps, and can interface with NES-style
>> controllers.  Runs on a Parallax Propeller.
>>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 10:56 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Noah,
>>> this is majorly cool. Possibly the first commercial modular video
>>> synth since the 80s? I gotta say, wow.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> D.
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:37 PM,  <nvawter at media.mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A friend just forwarded this to me...  I don't know what it is really yet,
>>>> It just looks like a EuroRack modular but is a videogame development
>>>> system?!?
>>>>
>>>> No idea, but forwarding for massive potential / crossover inspiration.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.specialstagesystems.com/system-overview/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May  4 11:34:49 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 11:34:49 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiyRq-48TNXcwk68qJs2DL1qQpZMeF8rpKCACL+XSf-3A@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys,
just stumbled upon this little novelty item. Apparently the
not-available-anymore OTA has been obsoleted by the not-available-yet
CDTA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_differencing_transconductance_amplifier

http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4405810/The-Current-Differencing-Transconductance-Amplifier--CDTA-

It seems like it's making a case for itself, so who knows.. it might
find use in future applications and start mass production.

In other news, I've come across this simple-looking voltage-to-current
converter based off two op-amps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_bridge
it's supposed to be a new development.

That's it for this episode of the Jetsons!

Cheers,
D.


From aym-htnys at teaser.fr  Sat May  4 12:00:41 2013
From: aym-htnys at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 12:00:41 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
In-Reply-To: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130504100041.GA28680@aym.net2.nerim.net>

On 2013-05-01 20:10 -0500, John Ames wrote:

> Also, some questions about VCOs: I know they have a reputation for
> tuning instability, but I've gathered that it's better now than it
> used to be. Is that just thanks to higher-tolerance parts being
> available at lower costs now, or are newer designs more stable? (Are
> fancy newer parts like tantalum or polymer capacitors any good for
> audio?)

I'm not exactly an expert but since nobody else bit...

Sawtooth core VCOs work by converting the control voltage to a
current and charging a small capacitor with said current. A
comparator compares the voltage across the capacitor with some
fixed voltage (E.G. 10 V). When that threshold is reached, a FET
shorts the capacitor, bringing the voltage across back to 0 and
starting a new cycle.

A VCO can go out of tune because
1. the control voltage drifts with temperature,
2. the exponential voltage to current converter drifts with
   temperature,
3. the value of the capacitor drifts with temperature,
4. the threshold voltage drifts with temperature or power supply
   load.

#1 is easily taken care of by using op amps with low offset and
low temperature coefficient.

#3 and other reasons mean that you have to use a polystyrene or
NP0/C0G ceramic cap.

#4 is avoided by using a proper voltage reference instead of a
resistive divider.

#2 is by far the worst offender. The fix is usually to use a
so-called "tempco" resistor with a temperature coefficient of
about +3350 PPM/K. Or doing the exponential conversion with an
SSM2164/V2164 (David Dixon's speciality).

http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/sy_cir2.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/sy_cir4.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/sy_cir7.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/sy_cir9.htm
http://houshu.at.webry.info/200908/article_1.html
http://houshu.at.webry.info/200908/article_2.html
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/expo_tutorial/
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159/rbe.html

-- 
Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May  4 12:49:45 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 12:49:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
In-Reply-To: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABCBCvPE=snq6jUnYgxW4t7vx0DokQsMbDqU4-KW=uzNGKVMmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgd65QQDj0Mm+XBP7qmHmzDXoUE7-Z1KKExy-z8yf2cvA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,
welcome to synth-diy! This is a great community and I'm sure you'll
find a lot of help and advice here.

This might be a good point to think about your approach to collecting
information, as there's going to be a LOT of it in electronics.. it's
a whole new world.
Maybe you could find my method of organizing information interesting.
Basically I have one dir called "topics", inside it top level
directories ("electronics", "physics", "computers", "cooking", ...).
Inside each of those I have one more dir (in "electronics" I have
things like "tubes", "tube amps", "power supplies", "impedance",
"current sources and transconductance", "op amps", "work safety", and
so on). Inside those, I save web pages I stumble upon (or even whole
websites) that I find interesting. Especially if I don't have enough
time to read the whole thing at the moment.
I have built up a mood board in a similar way:
http://search.retrosynth.com/synth-diy/search/lookit.cgi?-v1101.10847

Oh, and while we're looking at archives.. don't forget this list has
them! Very useful tool indeed..

On another note, books and resources mentioned in this thread might
well make it into the wiki (is someone perhaps working on the wiki?)

Cheers,
D.

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:10 AM, John Ames <commodorejohn at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, all! I'm a vintage-computer hobbyist who's been looking at getting
> into homebrew synthesis for a while now after getting a Minimoog VST
> (wish I could afford the real deal!) and especially after acquiring an
> Oberheim polyphonic and getting to play around with real analog
> synthesis. However, I'm a lot less experienced with low-level
> electronics than I am with computing on a hardware-architectural level
> (beyond basic solder-monkey ability,) so a lot of this is pretty new
> territory for me, and this seems like a good place to turn to with
> some questions:
>
> For starters, that low-level electronics thing. Can someone recommend
> me a good getting-started guide to the subject? A reference with a
> focus on audio circuits would be nice, but anything that can give me a
> solid footing would be great. I don't expect that I'll get good
> results if I just start slapping parts together at random :D
>
> Also, some questions about VCOs: I know they have a reputation for
> tuning instability, but I've gathered that it's better now than it
> used to be. Is that just thanks to higher-tolerance parts being
> available at lower costs now, or are newer designs more stable? (Are
> fancy newer parts like tantalum or polymer capacitors any good for
> audio?) What are some good starter designs? I can easily figure out
> how to do a pulse-wave oscillator given a simple sawtooth oscillator,
> but how about a triangle or sine-wave?
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From thomas at pdp7.org  Sat May  4 18:26:18 2013
From: thomas at pdp7.org (Thomas Strathmann)
Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 18:26:18 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Hello, and some questions
In-Reply-To: <0F00A9E4-EDD2-4DAF-9029-7826E33995E6@audioenterprise.com>
References: <14767896.1367501220881.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<0F00A9E4-EDD2-4DAF-9029-7826E33995E6@audioenterprise.com>
Message-ID: <518536AA.2090601@pdp7.org>

On 02.05.13 17:40, Bill Thompson wrote:
> Couldn't agree more on both books! But, I'd probably start with Hill & Horawitz, at least the first few chapters, and then dig into Chamberlain. There are also texts by Jim Williams that I'd call essential reading. And don't overlook IC app books!!!

Has the op amp book by Sergio Franco been mentioned yet? It's got some
stuff directly relevant to synth DIY but should be considered as geared
more towards the mathematically inclined person in sharp contrast the
Horowitz and Hill.

"Op Amps for Everyone" by Carter and Mancini is something more along the
lines of practical applications. An old version is available for free as
a PDF.

And then there's "Small Signal Audio Design" by Douglas Self. I'd say
that for building complete audio systems it'a very valuable resource.
I quite like it.

	Thomas


From nitro2k01 at gmail.com  Sun May  5 02:48:35 2013
From: nitro2k01 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?T3ZlIFJpZMOp?=)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 02:48:35 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiyRq-48TNXcwk68qJs2DL1qQpZMeF8rpKCACL+XSf-3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUiyRq-48TNXcwk68qJs2DL1qQpZMeF8rpKCACL+XSf-3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABacs=C1KkPytz5y=Qf5dwBBH5Q9KjPucEB0B0VfBB4R4rYhWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Will this circuit be any good for anything but high frequency stuff?
Is there any information of how the circuit is constructed inside?

Re: Fontana bridge. Why would you need that? It seems like the purpose
of the Fontana bridge over the usual opamp/transistor and resistor way
of generating currents, is to deal with impedance issues in the load
or the wires leading up to the load. I don't see how this would be
necessary for audio frequencies, on a short stretch of PCB trace,
going into a rather well behaved piece of silicon.

On 4 May 2013 11:34, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey guys,
> just stumbled upon this little novelty item. Apparently the
> not-available-anymore OTA has been obsoleted by the not-available-yet
> CDTA:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_differencing_transconductance_amplifier
>
> http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4405810/The-Current-Differencing-Transconductance-Amplifier--CDTA-
>
> It seems like it's making a case for itself, so who knows.. it might
> find use in future applications and start mass production.
>
> In other news, I've come across this simple-looking voltage-to-current
> converter based off two op-amps:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_bridge
> it's supposed to be a new development.
>
> That's it for this episode of the Jetsons!
>
> Cheers,
> D.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
/Ove

Blog: <http://blog.gg8.se/>

"Here is Evergreen City. Evergreen? is the color of green forever."


From phil.macphail at liivatera.com  Sun May  5 12:05:32 2013
From: phil.macphail at liivatera.com (Phil Macphail)
Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 13:05:32 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
In-Reply-To: <CABacs=C1KkPytz5y=Qf5dwBBH5Q9KjPucEB0B0VfBB4R4rYhWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDAC0130.ED5F%phil.macphail@liivatera.com>

I think the CDTA has been made obsolete by the op-amp. The first reference
cited on Wikipedia is ten years old - long enough to find its way into
designs if it was of any use. The use of replica currents (one for
feedback, one for feed-forward) isn't desirable for a low-power solution.
At fine process geometries the differing voltages on the output nodes will
result in poor current matching so linearity will be compromised, and the
grounded capacitor will be a disaster for common-mode rejection so don't
expect to find it an your cellphone anytime soon. Far better to use
switched resistors in a conventional op-amp design, where the higher
open-loop gain will improve the common-mode rejection.
Of course none of this is relevant to synthesiser circuits, but there is
nothing the circuit offers that a gm-C filter can't do better if you
choose your impedances well. It should be possible to emulate the CDTA
cell with both OTA's in an LM13700 if you put the capacitor on the
feedback path if you really wanted to try it.

Sorry for the negativity, I'll make my next post more positive, promise!




On 05/05/2013 03:48, "Ove Rid?" <nitro2k01 at gmail.com> wrote:

>Will this circuit be any good for anything but high frequency stuff?
>Is there any information of how the circuit is constructed inside?
>
>Re: Fontana bridge. Why would you need that? It seems like the purpose
>of the Fontana bridge over the usual opamp/transistor and resistor way
>of generating currents, is to deal with impedance issues in the load
>or the wires leading up to the load. I don't see how this would be
>necessary for audio frequencies, on a short stretch of PCB trace,
>going into a rather well behaved piece of silicon.
>
>On 4 May 2013 11:34, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey guys,
>> just stumbled upon this little novelty item. Apparently the
>> not-available-anymore OTA has been obsoleted by the not-available-yet
>> CDTA:
>>
>> 
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_differencing_transconductance_amplif
>>ier
>>
>> 
>>http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4405810/The-Current-Differencing-Transco
>>nductance-Amplifier--CDTA-
>>
>> It seems like it's making a case for itself, so who knows.. it might
>> find use in future applications and start mass production.
>>
>> In other news, I've come across this simple-looking voltage-to-current
>> converter based off two op-amps:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_bridge
>> it's supposed to be a new development.
>>
>> That's it for this episode of the Jetsons!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
>
>-- 
>/Ove
>
>Blog: <http://blog.gg8.se/>
>
>"Here is Evergreen City. Evergreen? is the color of green forever."
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy




From uwe.schueler at uni-tuebingen.de  Sun May  5 13:06:14 2013
From: uwe.schueler at uni-tuebingen.de (Uwe Schueler)
Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 13:06:14 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
In-Reply-To: <CABacs=C1KkPytz5y=Qf5dwBBH5Q9KjPucEB0B0VfBB4R4rYhWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUiyRq-48TNXcwk68qJs2DL1qQpZMeF8rpKCACL+XSf-3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABacs=C1KkPytz5y=Qf5dwBBH5Q9KjPucEB0B0VfBB4R4rYhWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130505130614.82267fgg7o087r52@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>

> Will this circuit be any good for anything but high frequency stuff?
I'm afraid you are right; modern (>90's) OTA/Gm-cell circuits have been
developed in CMOS for high speed low power LSI chips. Bad chance to see
a 14pin LMxxxx audio-CDTA ever.

> Re: Fontana bridge. Why would you need that? It seems like the purpose
> of the Fontana bridge over the usual opamp/transistor and resistor...
why an external transistor for a current source ? If you don't need it as
expo and currents are <20mA, opamp-only current sources are nice.
I often us a NIC as current source for sawtooth/triangle oscillators,
because with 1 opamp and 4 resistors you can get a current source
plus a buffered signal output !
BTW: for me the Fontana bridge looks just like a NIC variant:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kulturgueterschuppen/Tech#5874424814629940642
Can someone explain the benefit of a 2-opamp fontana-bridge over a 1 opamp
NIC (driven by source with Ri=0 )? ( in a few words please, I have a  
higher-math-allergy ;-) )


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Mon May  6 01:15:15 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 16:15:15 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Cortex M Eval board comparison site from ARM
Message-ID: <6EE42064-3BE8-4BB1-976D-F965551782E9@earthlink.net>


http://www.keil.com/boards/cortexm.asp


Terry Shultz
thx1138 at earthlink.net





From cheater00 at gmail.com  Mon May  6 12:07:44 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 12:07:44 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Plotting the phase of a filter with FFT or a Phase
	Comparator?
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUggB0rnEJTtpSHzWqrKnW-NnaSP7eugbk0QKe3cyOjH2g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,
I have been looking for a good way to measure the phase shift of a
filter. One way is to use an FFT spectrograph, but it isn't always the
best idea:
- they're a bit cumbersome to use. tiny screens and even tinier
resolutions don't help.
- it's difficult to find an FFT which does audio frequencies, and if
you do they're usually a bit expensive
- there's little resolution in the low end (not great if you want to
e.g. design a filter network for a subwoofer, or see how your vcf
behaves in the low end of the spectrum)

An alternative I've found is to use a phase comparator. First off, I
stumbled upon something called a "phase writer", which is one of those
wax roll printers. What it does is it takes two sine waves as input -
one is the reference and one is the tested wave, and plot the phase
shift between them (either in the range -tau/2..tau/2 or 0..tau).

Historically, those items used to be used in time measurements, to
check clock drift apparently. If you have two waves that are very
close in frequency, you can look at the phase relationship, and it'll
be a saw-up or a saw-down. Imagine: both waves start at phase = 0. One
is slower so it starts lagging behind.. after one cycle of the slower
wave, that is when the slower wave is at phase = 0 again, the fast one
might be at phase = 0.001 tau. This accumulates and then once the
slower wave is at phase = 0, the fast one is at phase = 0.002 tau, and
so on, until the fast one reaches 1 tau, which again registers as
phase = 0. This means that for beating frequencies your phase
relationship graph will be a saw up or saw down.

Anyways, those seem to be useful for phase relationships that are
constant, too (they have to be, so that you can sync your clock
perfectly). Many of them only work down to say 50 Hz.

The less cumbersome version is the Phase Comparator (not really sure
if there's much of a connection with the circuit used in PLL's). It
takes two sine waves, again, but this time it outputs a DC voltage or
current which is proportional to the phase shift. Two that seem to be
useful for low-frequency work are the Dranetz 305 (apparently very
precise, and somewhat inexpensive), as well as the Tracor 905a (google
thinks it's a tractor if you don't include the "a" so beware). Manuals
or brochures are available for both.

A phase comparator can be used with a bistable or digital storage
scope to create plots (very slowly for frequencies below say 10 Hz)

Have you guys come across phase comparators before? Have you found
them to be useful? Do you know any models other than what I mentioned
above?

One thing that's bothering me about phase comparators is that they are
made to compare the phase of static frequencies, and they have a
settling time, which means you have to turn off the Z axis or the
storage in the scope while the comparator is settling. Ideally you'd
want to have a sweep, and no gating at all.

Is there any other equipment useful for this purpose that you could
recommend? I know there's the impulse method, but again that's
deconvolution/fft. I'm not sure there's a box which does that
specifically, it's always integrated into fft spectrographs.

BTW, can someone recommend good spectrographs which go down to 1Hz?

Cheers,
D.


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon May  6 16:16:33 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 15:16:33 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Plotting the phase of a filter with FFT or a Phase
	Comparator?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUggB0rnEJTtpSHzWqrKnW-NnaSP7eugbk0QKe3cyOjH2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUggB0rnEJTtpSHzWqrKnW-NnaSP7eugbk0QKe3cyOjH2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5187BB41.6060608@gmail.com>

cheater00 . wrote:
> Hi guys,
> I have been looking for a good way to measure the phase shift of a
> filter. One way is to use an FFT spectrograph, but it isn't always the
> best idea:
> - they're a bit cumbersome to use. tiny screens and even tinier
> resolutions don't help.

Which specific "FFT spectrograph"s (I guess you mean a spectrum 
analyser?) with tiny screens and even tinier resolutions are you 
referring to?

More importantly, what resolution are you looking for?

> - it's difficult to find an FFT which does audio frequencies, and if
> you do they're usually a bit expensive

For a rough estimate you could use a PC sound card.

> - there's little resolution in the low end (not great if you want to
> e.g. design a filter network for a subwoofer, or see how your vcf
> behaves in the low end of the spectrum)

Oh I don't know ... my HP 35660A can resolve down to microHz if you give 
it long enough.

> An alternative I've found is to use a phase comparator. First off, I
> stumbled upon something called a "phase writer", which is one of those
> wax roll printers. What it does is it takes two sine waves as input -
> one is the reference and one is the tested wave, and plot the phase
> shift between them (either in the range -tau/2..tau/2 or 0..tau).

Sounds like a mechanical version of a network analyser.

> The less cumbersome version is the Phase Comparator (not really sure
> if there's much of a connection with the circuit used in PLL's). It
> takes two sine waves, again, but this time it outputs a DC voltage or
> current which is proportional to the phase shift. Two that seem to be
> useful for low-frequency work are the Dranetz 305 (apparently very
> precise, and somewhat inexpensive), as well as the Tracor 905a (google
> thinks it's a tractor if you don't include the "a" so beware). Manuals
> or brochures are available for both.

HP did a phase-magnitude meter that seems quite popular with the audio 
crowd.  HP 3575A Gain-Phase meter, although it only goes down to around 
40Hz.  Below that you're really looking at mechanical or FFT.

> One thing that's bothering me about phase comparators is that they are
> made to compare the phase of static frequencies, and they have a
> settling time, which means you have to turn off the Z axis or the
> storage in the scope while the comparator is settling. Ideally you'd
> want to have a sweep, and no gating at all.

*ANY* frequency or phase mesaurement takes some time, and the lower the 
frequency the longer the time it takes to get, more so if you want more 
significant digits.  That's life.  Or start with an HP 141T and the 
30Hz-300kHz plugin, and then you really appreciate what "slow" means....

> Is there any other equipment useful for this purpose that you could
> recommend? I know there's the impulse method, but again that's
> deconvolution/fft. I'm not sure there's a box which does that
> specifically, it's always integrated into fft spectrographs.

Audio (specifically 20Hz to 20kHz) can be done on the cheap with a PC 
sound card and software.  Below 20Hz or above 20kHz and you start 
heading towards proper test equipment.

The classic HP spectrum analyser for audio work is the 3580A, covering 
1Hz to 50kHz.

> BTW, can someone recommend good spectrographs which go down to 1Hz?

Check out the FFT-based HP Dynamic Signal Analysers.  To properly 
measure phase you need a dual channel unit.  The 3562A still commands 
good prices, but if you hunt around you can find something like the 
35660A or 35665A for reasonable prices.

Neil
-- 
Modules and more :: www.cesyg.com
Homepage :: www.njohnson.co.uk ::


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Mon May  6 16:47:38 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 16:47:38 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Plotting the phase of a filter with FFT or a Phase
	Comparator?
In-Reply-To: <5187BB41.6060608@gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUggB0rnEJTtpSHzWqrKnW-NnaSP7eugbk0QKe3cyOjH2g@mail.gmail.com>
	<5187BB41.6060608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiOX196=za9SH-vPs_DqYMJoa5OecwVaEfvLcQ=2BtL+g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Neil!
Thank you very much for a very informed answer.

On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> cheater00 . wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>> I have been looking for a good way to measure the phase shift of a
>> filter. One way is to use an FFT spectrograph, but it isn't always the
>> best idea:
>> - they're a bit cumbersome to use. tiny screens and even tinier
>> resolutions don't help.
>
>
> Which specific "FFT spectrograph"s (I guess you mean a spectrum analyser?)

Yeah - thanks! Living in Germany is really killing me.

> with tiny screens and even tinier resolutions are you referring to?

Well, the HP 35660A :-) for one thing. Those things just seem so
cumbersome, especially if I compare to a full-screen spectrogram  on a
TV!

> More importantly, what resolution are you looking for?

I think it's less about what resolution I'm looking for, and more
about what resolution can be had..

>> - it's difficult to find an FFT which does audio frequencies, and if
>> you do they're usually a bit expensive
>
>
> For a rough estimate you could use a PC sound card.

Sure, but that's not really going to give me any certainties. Agreed
though, a PC sound card is an OK first approximation.

>> - there's little resolution in the low end (not great if you want to
>> e.g. design a filter network for a subwoofer, or see how your vcf
>> behaves in the low end of the spectrum)
>
>
> Oh I don't know ... my HP 35660A can resolve down to microHz if you give it
> long enough.

Yeah, I have looked at the 35660A and 3561A. Which one would you
recommend and why? Is there any "trick" to finding spectrum analyzers
that go this low in frequency?

>> An alternative I've found is to use a phase comparator. First off, I
>> stumbled upon something called a "phase writer", which is one of those
>> wax roll printers. What it does is it takes two sine waves as input -
>> one is the reference and one is the tested wave, and plot the phase
>> shift between them (either in the range -tau/2..tau/2 or 0..tau).
>
>
> Sounds like a mechanical version of a network analyser.

I think it's not mechanical - fully electronic. I think the Tracor
905a might be analog while the Dranetz 305 is digital, but not sure?
I'll look into it.. there's some manual browsing in store for me I
guess.

>> The less cumbersome version is the Phase Comparator (not really sure
>> if there's much of a connection with the circuit used in PLL's). It
>> takes two sine waves, again, but this time it outputs a DC voltage or
>> current which is proportional to the phase shift. Two that seem to be
>> useful for low-frequency work are the Dranetz 305 (apparently very
>> precise, and somewhat inexpensive), as well as the Tracor 905a (google
>> thinks it's a tractor if you don't include the "a" so beware). Manuals
>> or brochures are available for both.
>
>
> HP did a phase-magnitude meter that seems quite popular with the audio
> crowd.  HP 3575A Gain-Phase meter, although it only goes down to around
> 40Hz.  Below that you're really looking at mechanical or FFT.

Thanks, I'll research the HP3575A and Gain-Phase meters in general.

>> One thing that's bothering me about phase comparators is that they are
>> made to compare the phase of static frequencies, and they have a
>> settling time, which means you have to turn off the Z axis or the
>> storage in the scope while the comparator is settling. Ideally you'd
>> want to have a sweep, and no gating at all.
>
>
> *ANY* frequency or phase mesaurement takes some time, and the lower the
> frequency the longer the time it takes to get, more so if you want more
> significant digits.  That's life.  Or start with an HP 141T and the
> 30Hz-300kHz plugin, and then you really appreciate what "slow" means....

Would you suggest the HP141T as a good spectrum analyzer?

>> Is there any other equipment useful for this purpose that you could
>> recommend? I know there's the impulse method, but again that's
>> deconvolution/fft. I'm not sure there's a box which does that
>> specifically, it's always integrated into fft spectrographs.
>
>
> Audio (specifically 20Hz to 20kHz) can be done on the cheap with a PC sound
> card and software.  Below 20Hz or above 20kHz and you start heading towards
> proper test equipment.
>
> The classic HP spectrum analyser for audio work is the 3580A, covering 1Hz
> to 50kHz.

Can you compare the 3580A to the 3561A? The 3561A does 125uHz-100kHz,
but not sure about much more.

>> BTW, can someone recommend good spectrographs which go down to 1Hz?
>
>
> Check out the FFT-based HP Dynamic Signal Analysers.  To properly measure
> phase you need a dual channel unit.  The 3562A still commands good prices,
> but if you hunt around you can find something like the 35660A or 35665A for
> reasonable prices.

Again.. would you be able to tell the differences that 3562A brings
in? And the 35665A?

Cheers,
D.


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Mon May  6 16:58:25 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 16:58:25 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Cortex M Eval board comparison site from ARM
In-Reply-To: <6EE42064-3BE8-4BB1-976D-F965551782E9@earthlink.net>
References: <6EE42064-3BE8-4BB1-976D-F965551782E9@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhveX2ARP-O45F8iot9tW1JwOfHxcja+H1WunN+SVCyGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Really nice resource, thanks Terry!

Cheers,
D.

On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 1:15 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> http://www.keil.com/boards/cortexm.asp
>
>
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May  7 07:50:04 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 07:50:04 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
In-Reply-To: <CDAC0130.ED5F%phil.macphail@liivatera.com>
References: <CABacs=C1KkPytz5y=Qf5dwBBH5Q9KjPucEB0B0VfBB4R4rYhWQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDAC0130.ED5F%phil.macphail@liivatera.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgg8nuYA0T9_4jP4WYnq44Pd6xgqEx61J3N1qYH4DP16g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Phil,

On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Phil Macphail
<phil.macphail at liivatera.com> wrote:
> I think the CDTA has been made obsolete by the op-amp. The first reference
> cited on Wikipedia is ten years old - long enough to find its way into
> designs if it was of any use.

That reference does come from a country that don't even remotely have
the capability of manufacturing electronics, and most likely don't
have any means of really marketing the idea.. The Chinese crank out a
lot of papers. I wouldn't put a lot of thought into the pickup rate of
this idea.

> The use of replica currents (one for
> feedback, one for feed-forward) isn't desirable for a low-power solution.
> At fine process geometries the differing voltages on the output nodes will
> result in poor current matching so linearity will be compromised, and the
> grounded capacitor will be a disaster for common-mode rejection so don't
> expect to find it an your cellphone anytime soon. Far better to use
> switched resistors in a conventional op-amp design, where the higher
> open-loop gain will improve the common-mode rejection.
> Of course none of this is relevant to synthesiser circuits, but there is
> nothing the circuit offers that a gm-C filter can't do better if you
> choose your impedances well. It should be possible to emulate the CDTA
> cell with both OTA's in an LM13700 if you put the capacitor on the
> feedback path if you really wanted to try it.
>
> Sorry for the negativity, I'll make my next post more positive, promise!

I like your points. But (with my limited knowledge of semiconductors)
it looks like the z terminal (where the capacitor goes) has got a
low-impedance connection to the negative voltage supply but not to the
positive. And it kind of looks like i_n and i_p have a high-impedance
path connecting them So I don't know why the CMRR has to suffer? My
logic is very fuzzy, I know (I should apply for AI research..)


> On 05/05/2013 03:48, "Ove Rid?" <nitro2k01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Will this circuit be any good for anything but high frequency stuff?
>>Is there any information of how the circuit is constructed inside?
>>
>>Re: Fontana bridge. Why would you need that? It seems like the purpose
>>of the Fontana bridge over the usual opamp/transistor and resistor way
>>of generating currents, is to deal with impedance issues in the load
>>or the wires leading up to the load. I don't see how this would be
>>necessary for audio frequencies, on a short stretch of PCB trace,
>>going into a rather well behaved piece of silicon.
>>
>>On 4 May 2013 11:34, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey guys,
>>> just stumbled upon this little novelty item. Apparently the
>>> not-available-anymore OTA has been obsoleted by the not-available-yet
>>> CDTA:
>>>
>>>
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_differencing_transconductance_amplif
>>>ier
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4405810/The-Current-Differencing-Transco
>>>nductance-Amplifier--CDTA-
>>>
>>> It seems like it's making a case for itself, so who knows.. it might
>>> find use in future applications and start mass production.
>>>
>>> In other news, I've come across this simple-looking voltage-to-current
>>> converter based off two op-amps:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_bridge
>>> it's supposed to be a new development.
>>>
>>> That's it for this episode of the Jetsons!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> D.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>/Ove
>>
>>Blog: <http://blog.gg8.se/>
>>
>>"Here is Evergreen City. Evergreen is the color of green forever."
>>_______________________________________________
>>Synth-diy mailing list
>>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May  7 07:58:27 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 07:58:27 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
In-Reply-To: <20130505130614.82267fgg7o087r52@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>
References: <CA+9GZUiyRq-48TNXcwk68qJs2DL1qQpZMeF8rpKCACL+XSf-3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABacs=C1KkPytz5y=Qf5dwBBH5Q9KjPucEB0B0VfBB4R4rYhWQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130505130614.82267fgg7o087r52@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgJeKL-8_CP2Q4b7b8yoSbe9ZLJ5N7uQfrc4pqCJe0ayg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Uwe,

On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Uwe Schueler
<uwe.schueler at uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>> Will this circuit be any good for anything but high frequency stuff?
>
> I'm afraid you are right; modern (>90's) OTA/Gm-cell circuits have been
> developed in CMOS for high speed low power LSI chips. Bad chance to see
> a 14pin LMxxxx audio-CDTA ever.

Regarding CDTAs, OTAs, Current Conveyors, and other cool analogue
building blocks.. I'm surprised, with the miniaturization we have
nowadays, and how inexpensive pick&place is in china (even for small
runs!) that people don't develop their own ICs as hybrid boards. Is
there seriously a reason for this not to be happening? I understand
that it's a bit difficult to match things, but that's a hurdle, not an
impossibility... I'm surprised that in a world with billions of bright
minds there isn't even ONE project doing one or the other. And we're
talking about audio applications here... so exactness is much less
important than being able to play around with the circuit.

>> Re: Fontana bridge. Why would you need that? It seems like the purpose
>> of the Fontana bridge over the usual opamp/transistor and resistor...
>
> why an external transistor for a current source ? If you don't need it as
> expo and currents are <20mA, opamp-only current sources are nice.
> I often us a NIC as current source for sawtooth/triangle oscillators,
> because with 1 opamp and 4 resistors you can get a current source
> plus a buffered signal output !
> BTW: for me the Fontana bridge looks just like a NIC variant:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/Kulturgueterschuppen/Tech#5874424814629940642
> Can someone explain the benefit of a 2-opamp fontana-bridge over a 1 opamp
> NIC (driven by source with Ri=0 )? ( in a few words please, I have a
> higher-math-allergy ;-) )

Interesting point about the Fontana being bridge, however I seriously
don't think this is how it works! Z_p is parasitic impedance, it's
always in parallel with Z_s! You can't just manipulate the circuit
like that.. :-) So yeah, the Fontana Bridge is similar to a negative
impedance converter, but cannot be replaced by one in the way you
suggest!

Cheers,
Damian


From uwe.schueler at uni-tuebingen.de  Tue May  7 12:12:58 2013
From: uwe.schueler at uni-tuebingen.de (Uwe Schueler)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 12:12:58 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUgJeKL-8_CP2Q4b7b8yoSbe9ZLJ5N7uQfrc4pqCJe0ayg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUiyRq-48TNXcwk68qJs2DL1qQpZMeF8rpKCACL+XSf-3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABacs=C1KkPytz5y=Qf5dwBBH5Q9KjPucEB0B0VfBB4R4rYhWQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130505130614.82267fgg7o087r52@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>
	<CA+9GZUgJeKL-8_CP2Q4b7b8yoSbe9ZLJ5N7uQfrc4pqCJe0ayg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130507121258.677546vu33tgrtt6@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>

hi Damian
> ... I'm surprised, ... that people don't develop their own ICs as hybrid
> boards... I'm surprised that in a world with billions of bright
> minds there isn't even ONE project doing one or the other...
belong to the other group ( not so bright minds) and have done it ;-)
a thick film hybrid audio attenuator,3 decades ago...but let's talk  
about today:
I still have  2 reels = 6000pcs of BC846BDW1T1 (dual npn in SOT-363)
thanks to ebay the price for all of them was lower than for 1 pcs. of these
obsolete vintage matched duals ! So I'd like to make a small DIL module with
2..4 of them + 0805 NTC on the top side an some 1206 heating resistors  
on the back side. The remaining problem is how to select them ? :) But  
that's a new topic...


> Interesting point about the Fontana being bridge, however I seriously
> don't think this is how it works! Z_p is parasitic impedance, it's
> always in parallel with Z_s!
> You can't just manipulate the circuit
> like that.. :-) So yeah, the Fontana Bridge is similar to a negative
> impedance converter, but cannot be replaced by one in the way you
> suggest!
I do not suggest to replace the Fontana-bridge with a NIC. The  
original app. was
compensating a parasitic Z, but for Synth DIY/audio stuff this might be not so
important, as Phil mentioned. He said there is no benefit in using a Fontana-
bridge instead of a simple opamp + transistor current source.I  
answered such a current source could also be done by NIC and I don't  
see an advantage of a Fontana-bridge in such application like  
generating linear voltage ramps in VCOs,
ADSRs...
In my NIC picture Zp is controlled by a voltage source with impedance Zvs=0,
so Zp and Zs ARE still parallel. All impedances Z1,2,3,p,S stay in the  
original positions, so no "manipulation" there - but I agree,  
combining the diffamp with the opamp and amputating the Vin pin is a  
severe manipulation :-)
cheers u~





From steve at bendentech.co.uk  Tue May  7 12:32:12 2013
From: steve at bendentech.co.uk (Steve Lenham)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 11:32:12 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
In-Reply-To: <20130507121258.677546vu33tgrtt6@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>
References: <CA+9GZUiyRq-48TNXcwk68qJs2DL1qQpZMeF8rpKCACL+XSf-3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABacs=C1KkPytz5y=Qf5dwBBH5Q9KjPucEB0B0VfBB4R4rYhWQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130505130614.82267fgg7o087r52@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>
	<CA+9GZUgJeKL-8_CP2Q4b7b8yoSbe9ZLJ5N7uQfrc4pqCJe0ayg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130507121258.677546vu33tgrtt6@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <5188D82C.9080600@bendentech.co.uk>

On 07/05/2013 11:12, Uwe Schueler wrote:

> I still have  2 reels = 6000pcs of BC846BDW1T1 (dual npn in SOT-363)
> thanks to ebay the price for all of them was lower than for 1 pcs. of these
> obsolete vintage matched duals ! So I'd like to make a small DIL module
> with
> 2..4 of them + 0805 NTC on the top side an some 1206 heating resistors
> on the back side. The remaining problem is how to select them ? :) But
> that's a new topic...

Good idea - I keep thinking of doing something along those lines (and 
not getting round to it!).

Makes me wonder: if one were to parallel multiple examples of your 
standard BC846s, what would be the effect on the overall matching? Would 
it improve and, if so, by how much?

Cheers,

Steve L.


From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Tue May  7 16:43:32 2013
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 15:43:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Spare TR606 case anyone?
In-Reply-To: <51823504.8000807@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <51823504.8000807@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <51891314.5010400@bugbrand.co.uk>

Worth another shot?!
Case wanted!

Actually, more pressing now 'cos I received the Quicksilver CPU 
replacement (very quick international shipping + docs online are clear & 
concise - makes for a super project - 
http://www.socialentropy.com/quicksilver/qs606.html) - happy to say the 
old guts are now working again! So, very keen to track down a case..

Thanks Tom

On 02/05/2013 10:42, Tom Bugs wrote:
> Hey, LONG-SHOT!
>
> Does anyone happen to have a spare & not-too-massively-beaten-up 606 
> case? (ie. the machine case, not a carry bag)
> Actually, need buttons too.. but the case is the most important part.
> The reason being, I have an un-housed GUTS of one - still not actually 
> working, but hopeful (tracking down by cross-comparing with another + 
> going to try the new Quicksilver CPU replacement shortly)
>
> So, if anyone does happen to have one gathering dust.. let's discuss!
> Thanks, Tom
>

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From jspeth at avnera.com  Tue May  7 18:06:48 2013
From: jspeth at avnera.com (John Speth)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 09:06:48 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Top octave practices in old organs
Message-ID: <f877fa2f721f1d13b3da05da1dabd3bb@mail.gmail.com>

Hi-

I just wrapped up the cleaning and restoration of a 1973 Wurlitzer
Funmaker Organ.  In trying to determine if it's all working properly, I
have some doubt about the upper keyboard top octave.

There are three pipe settings: 4', 8', and 16'.  I found that the 4' and
8' pipes are missing from top C.  In the complete C-B flat octave below
top C, the 4' pipe is missing.  It's almost as if the it was designed that
way but I don't know that for sure.  Is that a common design practice from
the era to deal with the lack of very high pipe frequencies?  Or does my
organ have a subtle problem that I need to fix?

JJS


From tim.parkhurst at gmail.com  Tue May  7 18:22:49 2013
From: tim.parkhurst at gmail.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 09:22:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] [AH] Re:  Contest to win a Tek 465
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBVfk_FJSiVd=RyJNGCJW2E-rbQnrkpyE=4rOOyF8fM3xQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACDGQT_WLByiT61aNG67YNj_3TRaxnMw-nV16X0KDKFTZvLm2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<743C5E15-8C34-4B7C-90DF-9D15176AE4CC@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUjo+6-mHOuPFq4_wKOeQZDXADzqhZ15EY4f-PmewwMXrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP92RBVfk_FJSiVd=RyJNGCJW2E-rbQnrkpyE=4rOOyF8fM3xQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACDGQT_FaiVGhHzD4xOgiMcwP=FZzFjmFQLOsdstVz7R+kryug@mail.gmail.com>

You won?!? Awesome!

Of course, now we all need to see pics of the messy workbench that
landed you a very cool scope. :)


Tim (beyond my scope) Servo
---
"Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
- H.L. Hastings



On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:02 AM, Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org> wrote:
> Many thanks Tim for the tip about the contest!
> UPS came by with the scope just now. `[]:-)=
>
> /mr
>
>
> On 14 March 2013 22:18, cheater cheater <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> At some point last december I took the time to locate photos of nearly
>> damn every analog scope tek have made, and one thing's clear: the 465
>> has the coolest looks of them all. There simply isn't a cooler looking
>> scope.
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>> > Check out VintageTek web site for great deals as well.
>> >
>> > I found 465/475 Tek scopes in abundance on Ebay.
>> >
>> > Just be careful on burned displays.
>> >
>> > I just bought a Tek 468 + Scope cart for $300.00
>> >
>> > The 468 is like a 465 + Storage function.
>> >
>> >
>> > Terry Shultz
>> > thx1138 at earthlink.net
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mar 9, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Tim Parkhurst <tim.parkhurst at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Cool contest - Register at this site, send in a picture of your messy
>> >> / interesting workbench, do a few other things, and you're entered in
>> >> a contest to win a classic Tek 465 scope. :)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.scopejunction.com/author.asp?section_id=1835&doc_id=260090&&goback=.gde_2316414_member_221102380
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Tim (I'm sure we have some VERY 'interesting' workbenches out there)
>> >> Servo
>> >> ---
>> >> "Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
>> >> - H.L. Hastings
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> >> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May  7 18:23:16 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 18:23:16 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] [AH] Re:  Contest to win a Tek 465
In-Reply-To: <CACDGQT_FaiVGhHzD4xOgiMcwP=FZzFjmFQLOsdstVz7R+kryug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACDGQT_WLByiT61aNG67YNj_3TRaxnMw-nV16X0KDKFTZvLm2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<743C5E15-8C34-4B7C-90DF-9D15176AE4CC@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUjo+6-mHOuPFq4_wKOeQZDXADzqhZ15EY4f-PmewwMXrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP92RBVfk_FJSiVd=RyJNGCJW2E-rbQnrkpyE=4rOOyF8fM3xQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACDGQT_FaiVGhHzD4xOgiMcwP=FZzFjmFQLOsdstVz7R+kryug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUh+nEtWABpPUnB71Jrt+9hotJX2X+QO3rdZZdn_vr0txA@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, yeah, totally! Want to see it!

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Tim Parkhurst <tim.parkhurst at gmail.com> wrote:
> You won?!? Awesome!
>
> Of course, now we all need to see pics of the messy workbench that
> landed you a very cool scope. :)
>
>
> Tim (beyond my scope) Servo
> ---
> "Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
> - H.L. Hastings
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:02 AM, Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org> wrote:
>> Many thanks Tim for the tip about the contest!
>> UPS came by with the scope just now. `[]:-)=
>>
>> /mr
>>
>>
>> On 14 March 2013 22:18, cheater cheater <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> At some point last december I took the time to locate photos of nearly
>>> damn every analog scope tek have made, and one thing's clear: the 465
>>> has the coolest looks of them all. There simply isn't a cooler looking
>>> scope.
>>>
>>> D.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Check out VintageTek web site for great deals as well.
>>> >
>>> > I found 465/475 Tek scopes in abundance on Ebay.
>>> >
>>> > Just be careful on burned displays.
>>> >
>>> > I just bought a Tek 468 + Scope cart for $300.00
>>> >
>>> > The 468 is like a 465 + Storage function.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Terry Shultz
>>> > thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mar 9, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Tim Parkhurst <tim.parkhurst at gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Cool contest - Register at this site, send in a picture of your messy
>>> >> / interesting workbench, do a few other things, and you're entered in
>>> >> a contest to win a classic Tek 465 scope. :)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> http://www.scopejunction.com/author.asp?section_id=1835&doc_id=260090&&goback=.gde_2316414_member_221102380
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Tim (I'm sure we have some VERY 'interesting' workbenches out there)
>>> >> Servo
>>> >> ---
>>> >> "Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
>>> >> - H.L. Hastings
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> >> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>>> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>>


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May  7 19:26:54 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 19:26:54 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Top octave practices in old organs
In-Reply-To: <f877fa2f721f1d13b3da05da1dabd3bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f877fa2f721f1d13b3da05da1dabd3bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiZE44S8eDeSsp+vK50NEKwb-14KyZorf3oDcC9FjSn4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,
I believe that's normal. That's what I've seen in Hammonds and Electones.

Cheers,
D.

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:06 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
> Hi-
>
> I just wrapped up the cleaning and restoration of a 1973 Wurlitzer
> Funmaker Organ.  In trying to determine if it's all working properly, I
> have some doubt about the upper keyboard top octave.
>
> There are three pipe settings: 4', 8', and 16'.  I found that the 4' and
> 8' pipes are missing from top C.  In the complete C-B flat octave below
> top C, the 4' pipe is missing.  It's almost as if the it was designed that
> way but I don't know that for sure.  Is that a common design practice from
> the era to deal with the lack of very high pipe frequencies?  Or does my
> organ have a subtle problem that I need to fix?
>
> JJS
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tom at electricdruid.net  Tue May  7 19:44:02 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 18:44:02 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Top octave practices in old organs
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiZE44S8eDeSsp+vK50NEKwb-14KyZorf3oDcC9FjSn4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f877fa2f721f1d13b3da05da1dabd3bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUiZE44S8eDeSsp+vK50NEKwb-14KyZorf3oDcC9FjSn4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <212565CC-3477-413F-BD5E-4D914DB7C16E@electricdruid.net>

Seconded. It's fairly common practice to miss or repeat the highest or lowest frequencies. Hammond set the ball rolling way back in the 1930's and some (many? Survey results please!) who came after followed the same path.
These days it's regarded as "character", and many digital clonewheels copy the effect.

A similar short cut is to use one set of filters for all the tones from an octave or even for a whole manual. My Electone used to do this. Notes at the top end of a manual were noticeably quieter and mellower than the ones at the bottom. They sort-of got away with it because it only had 44-key manuals. With full-size keyboards, the effect would have been even more disturbing.

T.

On 7 May 2013, at 18:26, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
> I believe that's normal. That's what I've seen in Hammonds and Electones.
> 
> Cheers,
> D.
> 
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:06 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
>> Hi-
>> 
>> I just wrapped up the cleaning and restoration of a 1973 Wurlitzer
>> Funmaker Organ.  In trying to determine if it's all working properly, I
>> have some doubt about the upper keyboard top octave.
>> 
>> There are three pipe settings: 4', 8', and 16'.  I found that the 4' and
>> 8' pipes are missing from top C.  In the complete C-B flat octave below
>> top C, the 4' pipe is missing.  It's almost as if the it was designed that
>> way but I don't know that for sure.  Is that a common design practice from
>> the era to deal with the lack of very high pipe frequencies?  Or does my
>> organ have a subtle problem that I need to fix?
>> 
>> JJS
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May  7 20:55:45 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 20:55:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Top octave practices in old organs
In-Reply-To: <212565CC-3477-413F-BD5E-4D914DB7C16E@electricdruid.net>
References: <f877fa2f721f1d13b3da05da1dabd3bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUiZE44S8eDeSsp+vK50NEKwb-14KyZorf3oDcC9FjSn4Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<212565CC-3477-413F-BD5E-4D914DB7C16E@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgOeS1_Cs-u0f1y4OkJdQtY0xPiipzrTgTgGpX6MExD+g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tom,
what are those filters you speak of? I'm trying to imagine what's
going on, but can't quite picture it.

Of course organs have tone shaping filters, but I'm not sure how that
relates to what you say.

Cheers,
D.

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> Seconded. It's fairly common practice to miss or repeat the highest or lowest frequencies. Hammond set the ball rolling way back in the 1930's and some (many? Survey results please!) who came after followed the same path.
> These days it's regarded as "character", and many digital clonewheels copy the effect.
>
> A similar short cut is to use one set of filters for all the tones from an octave or even for a whole manual. My Electone used to do this. Notes at the top end of a manual were noticeably quieter and mellower than the ones at the bottom. They sort-of got away with it because it only had 44-key manuals. With full-size keyboards, the effect would have been even more disturbing.
>
> T.
>
> On 7 May 2013, at 18:26, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>> I believe that's normal. That's what I've seen in Hammonds and Electones.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>>
>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:06 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
>>> Hi-
>>>
>>> I just wrapped up the cleaning and restoration of a 1973 Wurlitzer
>>> Funmaker Organ.  In trying to determine if it's all working properly, I
>>> have some doubt about the upper keyboard top octave.
>>>
>>> There are three pipe settings: 4', 8', and 16'.  I found that the 4' and
>>> 8' pipes are missing from top C.  In the complete C-B flat octave below
>>> top C, the 4' pipe is missing.  It's almost as if the it was designed that
>>> way but I don't know that for sure.  Is that a common design practice from
>>> the era to deal with the lack of very high pipe frequencies?  Or does my
>>> organ have a subtle problem that I need to fix?
>>>
>>> JJS
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>


From Stromeko at nexgo.de  Tue May  7 21:30:51 2013
From: Stromeko at nexgo.de (ASSI)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 21:30:51 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Forget the OTA, find me a CDTA!
In-Reply-To: <5188D82C.9080600@bendentech.co.uk>
References: <CA+9GZUiyRq-48TNXcwk68qJs2DL1qQpZMeF8rpKCACL+XSf-3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130507121258.677546vu33tgrtt6@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>
	<5188D82C.9080600@bendentech.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2191332.qmMUIeR4nY@rainer.invalid>

On Tuesday 07 May 2013, 11:32:12, Steve Lenham wrote:
> Makes me wonder: if one were to parallel multiple examples of your
> standard BC846s, what would be the effect on the overall matching? Would
> it improve and, if so, by how much?

Matching improves with sqrt(N), so four transistors mean half the spread on 
Vbe for instance.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

SD adaptations for KORG EX-800 and Poly-800MkII V0.9:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KorgSDada



From tim.parkhurst at gmail.com  Tue May  7 22:16:14 2013
From: tim.parkhurst at gmail.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 13:16:14 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] [AH] Re:  Contest to win a Tek 465
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBWWb4uhZTqLs6uM4L5HZWNAOs3NEPTo_eBRkNZj=v50ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACDGQT_WLByiT61aNG67YNj_3TRaxnMw-nV16X0KDKFTZvLm2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<743C5E15-8C34-4B7C-90DF-9D15176AE4CC@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUjo+6-mHOuPFq4_wKOeQZDXADzqhZ15EY4f-PmewwMXrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP92RBVfk_FJSiVd=RyJNGCJW2E-rbQnrkpyE=4rOOyF8fM3xQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACDGQT_FaiVGhHzD4xOgiMcwP=FZzFjmFQLOsdstVz7R+kryug@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh+nEtWABpPUnB71Jrt+9hotJX2X+QO3rdZZdn_vr0txA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP92RBWWb4uhZTqLs6uM4L5HZWNAOs3NEPTo_eBRkNZj=v50ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACDGQT-fozjT0jt2FZt_TcgFwo+PhCfpf7UGy_6wVa7czwgkHQ@mail.gmail.com>

THAT.
IS.
AWESOME!!

And Dude, is that ALL functioning gear, or are there some derelicts in there?

:)


Tim (and I don't use all caps lightly) Servo
---
"Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
- H.L. Hastings


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org> wrote:
> Hehe, a long shot perhaps... but it was not so much a messy workbench as it
> was a high-tek(tronix) xmas tree:
> http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/549600_623662317660544_1694572373_n.jpg
>
> /mr
>
>
> On 7 May 2013 18:23, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, yeah, totally! Want to see it!
>>
>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Tim Parkhurst <tim.parkhurst at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > You won?!? Awesome!
>> >
>> > Of course, now we all need to see pics of the messy workbench that
>> > landed you a very cool scope. :)
>> >
>> >
>> > Tim (beyond my scope) Servo
>> > ---
>> > "Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
>> > - H.L. Hastings
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:02 AM, Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Many thanks Tim for the tip about the contest!
>> >> UPS came by with the scope just now. `[]:-)=
>> >>
>> >> /mr
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 14 March 2013 22:18, cheater cheater <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> At some point last december I took the time to locate photos of nearly
>> >>> damn every analog scope tek have made, and one thing's clear: the 465
>> >>> has the coolest looks of them all. There simply isn't a cooler looking
>> >>> scope.
>> >>>
>> >>> D.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > Check out VintageTek web site for great deals as well.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I found 465/475 Tek scopes in abundance on Ebay.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Just be careful on burned displays.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I just bought a Tek 468 + Scope cart for $300.00
>> >>> >
>> >>> > The 468 is like a 465 + Storage function.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Terry Shultz
>> >>> > thx1138 at earthlink.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Mar 9, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Tim Parkhurst <tim.parkhurst at gmail.com>
>> >>> > wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> Cool contest - Register at this site, send in a picture of your
>> >>> >> messy
>> >>> >> / interesting workbench, do a few other things, and you're entered
>> >>> >> in
>> >>> >> a contest to win a classic Tek 465 scope. :)
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> http://www.scopejunction.com/author.asp?section_id=1835&doc_id=260090&&goback=.gde_2316414_member_221102380
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Tim (I'm sure we have some VERY 'interesting' workbenches out
>> >>> >> there)
>> >>> >> Servo
>> >>> >> ---
>> >>> >> "Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many
>> >>> >> hammers."
>> >>> >> - H.L. Hastings
>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >>> >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> >>> >> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >>> >
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> >>> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> >>> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >>
>> >>
>
>


From legion at helpwantedproductions.com  Tue May  7 23:21:55 2013
From: legion at helpwantedproductions.com (legion at helpwantedproductions.com)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 14:21:55 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Synare Sensor wiring diagram?
Message-ID: <70c6cab81fa111ee501ae16555450a6c.squirrel@webmail.helpwantedproductions.com>


I recently got in a non working synare sensor percussion synth (original
star, not a clone). Unfortunately the 9vt battery and blue wire from the
PCB were disconnected. It looks clean and outside of the dangling wires
I'm guessing/hoping it'll boot up if I can figure out where they go and
resoldering them.

Does anyone have a wiring diagram (or could possible take some clear pics
of the inside showing exactly where on the PCB the power and other wires
go?)  I've been alemtomtrack down a few pics online but they doens't quite
show where the other internal wires from thepcb go and so far my guesses
aren't being very fruitful.

Thanks for any/all help!

-- 
     ---------------------------------------
     NEW DAED SITE!!  -  Http://DaedSound.com
 DAED: Circuit Bent and Unusual Sound Devices
"Making Something Extraordinary from the Ordinary"

Music and Downloads at the New Online Site:
    http://davidtalento.bandcamp.com/





From tom at electricdruid.net  Wed May  8 00:04:02 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 23:04:02 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Top octave practices in old organs
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUgOeS1_Cs-u0f1y4OkJdQtY0xPiipzrTgTgGpX6MExD+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f877fa2f721f1d13b3da05da1dabd3bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUiZE44S8eDeSsp+vK50NEKwb-14KyZorf3oDcC9FjSn4Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<212565CC-3477-413F-BD5E-4D914DB7C16E@electricdruid.net>
	<CA+9GZUgOeS1_Cs-u0f1y4OkJdQtY0xPiipzrTgTgGpX6MExD+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DC629A43-6EBD-4509-AF4C-4E94FF4D4796@electricdruid.net>

This is an example:

http://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_electone_b-45.pdf/download.html

Have a look at the way that the different "tones" are created on page 25 - one simple(ish) filter for each tone,derived from all the square waves at a particular footage, rather than one-per-tone (which would be on page 8 - the dividers).

T.

On 7 May 2013, at 19:55, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Tom,
> what are those filters you speak of? I'm trying to imagine what's
> going on, but can't quite picture it.
> 
> Of course organs have tone shaping filters, but I'm not sure how that
> relates to what you say.
> 
> Cheers,
> D.
> 
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>> Seconded. It's fairly common practice to miss or repeat the highest or lowest frequencies. Hammond set the ball rolling way back in the 1930's and some (many? Survey results please!) who came after followed the same path.
>> These days it's regarded as "character", and many digital clonewheels copy the effect.
>> 
>> A similar short cut is to use one set of filters for all the tones from an octave or even for a whole manual. My Electone used to do this. Notes at the top end of a manual were noticeably quieter and mellower than the ones at the bottom. They sort-of got away with it because it only had 44-key manuals. With full-size keyboards, the effect would have been even more disturbing.
>> 
>> T.
>> 
>> On 7 May 2013, at 18:26, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi John,
>>> I believe that's normal. That's what I've seen in Hammonds and Electones.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> D.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:06 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi-
>>>> 
>>>> I just wrapped up the cleaning and restoration of a 1973 Wurlitzer
>>>> Funmaker Organ.  In trying to determine if it's all working properly, I
>>>> have some doubt about the upper keyboard top octave.
>>>> 
>>>> There are three pipe settings: 4', 8', and 16'.  I found that the 4' and
>>>> 8' pipes are missing from top C.  In the complete C-B flat octave below
>>>> top C, the 4' pipe is missing.  It's almost as if the it was designed that
>>>> way but I don't know that for sure.  Is that a common design practice from
>>>> the era to deal with the lack of very high pipe frequencies?  Or does my
>>>> organ have a subtle problem that I need to fix?
>>>> 
>>>> JJS
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 



From nssinc at hevanet.com  Wed May  8 01:50:11 2013
From: nssinc at hevanet.com (NSSINC)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 16:50:11 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Synare Sensor wiring diagram?
In-Reply-To: <70c6cab81fa111ee501ae16555450a6c.squirrel@webmail.helpwantedproductions.com>
References: <70c6cab81fa111ee501ae16555450a6c.squirrel@webmail.helpwantedproductions.com>
Message-ID: <51899333.8010104@hevanet.com>


	I have bmp copies of the repair manual I found online somewhere a while 
back, don't remember where. I can e-mail them to you if you wish.

-Al


On 05/07/2013 02:21 PM, legion at helpwantedproductions.com wrote:
>
> I recently got in a non working synare sensor percussion synth (original
> star, not a clone). Unfortunately the 9vt battery and blue wire from the
> PCB were disconnected. It looks clean and outside of the dangling wires
> I'm guessing/hoping it'll boot up if I can figure out where they go and
> resoldering them.
>
> Does anyone have a wiring diagram (or could possible take some clear pics
> of the inside showing exactly where on the PCB the power and other wires
> go?)  I've been alemtomtrack down a few pics online but they doens't quite
> show where the other internal wires from thepcb go and so far my guesses
> aren't being very fruitful.
>
> Thanks for any/all help!
>


From 21pointy at tpg.com.au  Wed May  8 02:01:32 2013
From: 21pointy at tpg.com.au (Adam Inglis)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 10:01:32 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Spare TR606 case anyone?
In-Reply-To: <51891314.5010400@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <51823504.8000807@bugbrand.co.uk> <51891314.5010400@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <75E01547-0500-4422-88B3-DAA6ABE427EB@tpg.com.au>

I wonder if this guy also does 606s

http://acid.ch/

Adam
On 08/05/2013, at 12:43 AM, Tom Bugs wrote:

> Worth another shot?!
> Case wanted!
>
> Actually, more pressing now 'cos I received the Quicksilver CPU  
> replacement (very quick international shipping + docs online are  
> clear & concise - makes for a super project - http://www.socialentropy.com/quicksilver/qs606.html) 
>  - happy to say the old guts are now working again! So, very keen to  
> track down a case..
>
> Thanks Tom
>
> On 02/05/2013 10:42, Tom Bugs wrote:
>> Hey, LONG-SHOT!
>>
>> Does anyone happen to have a spare & not-too-massively-beaten-up  
>> 606 case? (ie. the machine case, not a carry bag)
>> Actually, need buttons too.. but the case is the most important part.
>> The reason being, I have an un-housed GUTS of one - still not  
>> actually working, but hopeful (tracking down by cross-comparing  
>> with another + going to try the new Quicksilver CPU replacement  
>> shortly)
>>
>> So, if anyone does happen to have one gathering dust.. let's discuss!
>> Thanks, Tom
>>
>
> -- 
> BugBrand LTD
> UK company No. 07199808
> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
> 1 Ninetree Hill
> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
> United Kingdom
> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>



From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed May  8 14:34:06 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 13:34:06 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Plotting the phase of a filter with FFT or a Phase
	Comparator?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiOX196=za9SH-vPs_DqYMJoa5OecwVaEfvLcQ=2BtL+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUggB0rnEJTtpSHzWqrKnW-NnaSP7eugbk0QKe3cyOjH2g@mail.gmail.com>
	<5187BB41.6060608@gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUiOX196=za9SH-vPs_DqYMJoa5OecwVaEfvLcQ=2BtL+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+Ag9Yp5mhUUxjeAgvDP3vnt9QQphofkVncS-3yGXN0ig@mail.gmail.com>

cheater00 wrote:
>> Which specific "FFT spectrograph"s (I guess you mean a spectrum analyser?)
>
> Yeah - thanks! Living in Germany is really killing me.

I hope not literally!!

>> with tiny screens and even tinier resolutions are you referring to?
>
> Well, the HP 35660A :-) for one thing. Those things just seem so
> cumbersome, especially if I compare to a full-screen spectrogram  on a
> TV!

Or monitor.  Agreed, although for what it is I find the screen good enough.

>> More importantly, what resolution are you looking for?
>
> I think it's less about what resolution I'm looking for, and more
> about what resolution can be had..

Well, you can have whatever resolution you have the time and money for.

>> For a rough estimate you could use a PC sound card.
>
> Sure, but that's not really going to give me any certainties. Agreed
> though, a PC sound card is an OK first approximation.

You can use a stereo card for a basic network analyser: one channel
samples the input, the other channel samples the output.
But only useful over the audio range, and at typical audio amplitudes
(there's no range switching like you get on a proper hardware
analyser).

>> Oh I don't know ... my HP 35660A can resolve down to microHz if you give it
>> long enough.
>
> Yeah, I have looked at the 35660A and 3561A. Which one would you
> recommend and why? Is there any "trick" to finding spectrum analyzers
> that go this low in frequency?

I first used a 3561A.  It's a portable analyser, but only single
channel.  The 35660A is dual channel, but much larger and not very
portable.  It is very much a bench machine.  Both have an upper range
of 100kHz.  The 35660A splits that into 50kHz in dual mode, but you do
get very precise phase information.  So it's fine for audio use, ideal
for audio filters :)

There's no trick as such, for very low frequencies you need to go for
FFT instruments as there's no practical way for analogue to go sub-Hz
- the settling time as the analyser filter is swept would give a sweep
time measured in hours.

> Would you suggest the HP141T as a good spectrum analyzer?

Only if you like ancient machines or want to look like Charles Atlas!
It's fine for RF use, but for audio the lowest range is 30Hz, and even
then the sweep times can get very long for narrow bandwidths.

> Can you compare the 3580A to the 3561A? The 3561A does 125uHz-100kHz,
> but not sure about much more.

3580A - analogue, slow, covers 1Hz to 50kHz
3561A - FFT, much faster, does computation, covers 125uHz to 100kHz.
3562A - dual channel version of 3561A
35660A - modern version of 3562A, but sample rate reduced to 50kHz in dual mode
35665A - as above, but sample rate still 100kHz in dual mode, plus a
few other extra features

Also, price varies.

> Again.. would you be able to tell the differences that 3562A brings
> in? And the 35665A?

Both are good machines.  The 3562A is the older one.  It depends what
you can find for the price you're prepared to pay.
As a rough guide, Stewarts of Reading have:
 a 3562A for ?1,500, and a 35665A for ?1,850.

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Wed May  8 14:53:33 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 14:53:33 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Plotting the phase of a filter with FFT or a Phase
	Comparator?
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMx+Ag9Yp5mhUUxjeAgvDP3vnt9QQphofkVncS-3yGXN0ig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUggB0rnEJTtpSHzWqrKnW-NnaSP7eugbk0QKe3cyOjH2g@mail.gmail.com>
	<5187BB41.6060608@gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUiOX196=za9SH-vPs_DqYMJoa5OecwVaEfvLcQ=2BtL+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMx+Ag9Yp5mhUUxjeAgvDP3vnt9QQphofkVncS-3yGXN0ig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhKePKj=hvXX5=up8_fUgy9cv6_owm83oCnFjKoP-810g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Neil,
thanks for the info.
Given that I only want to do phase and amplitude comparisons, I'm
wondering if it isn't a better idea to first off get a Dranetz 305
plus an amplitude comparator and automate that with a DAQ. It'll
certainly be cheaper and I can also make sure the tests do what I
want. I already have a CV sig gen with an integrated counter and a
good external counter as well. Then again 1) it's not FFT, and 2) a
specan "just works". However, if I got THAT setup going, then I could
also use my Monacor 305 impedance bridge going with that, and then I
could also measure impedance of 4-terminal devices over frequency
which could be cool in its own right. That would only be halfway
automatized though (it needs some manual ranging, not sure if I could
somehow jig that up).

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:34 PM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> cheater00 wrote:
>> Yeah - thanks! Living in Germany is really killing me.
>
> I hope not literally!!

Haha, well no, but it's really terrible what about the options for
test equipment here.

> You can use a stereo card for a basic network analyser: one channel
> samples the input, the other channel samples the output.
> But only useful over the audio range, and at typical audio amplitudes
> (there's no range switching like you get on a proper hardware
> analyser).
>
>>> Oh I don't know ... my HP 35660A can resolve down to microHz if you give it
>>> long enough.
>>
>> Yeah, I have looked at the 35660A and 3561A. Which one would you
>> recommend and why? Is there any "trick" to finding spectrum analyzers
>> that go this low in frequency?
>
> I first used a 3561A.  It's a portable analyser, but only single
> channel.  The 35660A is dual channel, but much larger and not very
> portable.  It is very much a bench machine.  Both have an upper range
> of 100kHz.  The 35660A splits that into 50kHz in dual mode, but you do
> get very precise phase information.  So it's fine for audio use, ideal
> for audio filters :)
>
> There's no trick as such, for very low frequencies you need to go for
> FFT instruments as there's no practical way for analogue to go sub-Hz
> - the settling time as the analyser filter is swept would give a sweep
> time measured in hours.

I wonder how the Tracor and Dranetz work then. Most likely digital.
You mentioned *mechanical* phase comparators... did I misread that or
was that a thing at some point in history?

>> Would you suggest the HP141T as a good spectrum analyzer?
>
> Only if you like ancient machines or want to look like Charles Atlas!
> It's fine for RF use, but for audio the lowest range is 30Hz, and even
> then the sweep times can get very long for narrow bandwidths.
>
>> Can you compare the 3580A to the 3561A? The 3561A does 125uHz-100kHz,
>> but not sure about much more.
>
> 3580A - analogue, slow, covers 1Hz to 50kHz
> 3561A - FFT, much faster, does computation, covers 125uHz to 100kHz.
> 3562A - dual channel version of 3561A
> 35660A - modern version of 3562A, but sample rate reduced to 50kHz in dual mode
> 35665A - as above, but sample rate still 100kHz in dual mode, plus a
> few other extra features


Why would one buy the 35660A instead of the 3562A?

> Also, price varies.
>
>> Again.. would you be able to tell the differences that 3562A brings
>> in? And the 35665A?
>
> Both are good machines.  The 3562A is the older one.  It depends what
> you can find for the price you're prepared to pay.
> As a rough guide, Stewarts of Reading have:
>  a 3562A for ?1,500, and a 35665A for ?1,850.

Hmm, I'll check them out. It's been some time since I've ordered from
good old UK. I know Stewarts, it's a name that keeps coming back. I
heard good stuff about them but also heard they're a bit pricey. But I
think at least you get your money's worth, which is not (always?) the
case with eBay.

Cheers,
D.


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed May  8 16:18:34 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 15:18:34 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Plotting the phase of a filter with FFT or a Phase
	Comparator?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhKePKj=hvXX5=up8_fUgy9cv6_owm83oCnFjKoP-810g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUggB0rnEJTtpSHzWqrKnW-NnaSP7eugbk0QKe3cyOjH2g@mail.gmail.com>
	<5187BB41.6060608@gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUiOX196=za9SH-vPs_DqYMJoa5OecwVaEfvLcQ=2BtL+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMx+Ag9Yp5mhUUxjeAgvDP3vnt9QQphofkVncS-3yGXN0ig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhKePKj=hvXX5=up8_fUgy9cv6_owm83oCnFjKoP-810g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxL7tu4xxFfF5GfwaENwio9xqV_W4WCXpzJyiVgK=qM=Tw@mail.gmail.com>

cheater00 wrote:
> Given that I only want to do phase and amplitude comparisons, I'm
> wondering if it isn't a better idea to ....

Whatever floats your boat, as the saying goes.

> I wonder how the Tracor and Dranetz work then. Most likely digital.
> You mentioned *mechanical* phase comparators... did I misread that or
> was that a thing at some point in history?

You can play tricks like shifting the input signal up in frequency,
but you still need very narrow filters, which will have long settling
times if you want any useful resolution.

> Why would one buy the 35660A instead of the 3562A?

It is cheaper.  Both will do 100kHz spectrums of a single channel,
only the 35660A drops down to 50kHz in dual channel mode.

> Hmm, I'll check them out. It's been some time since I've ordered from
> good old UK. I know Stewarts, it's a name that keeps coming back. I
> heard good stuff about them but also heard they're a bit pricey. But I
> think at least you get your money's worth, which is not (always?) the
> case with eBay.

I've actually found Stewarts are sometimes *better* than eBay - I
think for some stuff people get carried away.
But I only mentioned them as a data point for comparison so you can
get a rough idea of the relative prices this kind of kit goes for.

Cheers,
Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From port23.co.uk at gmail.com  Thu May  9 10:16:29 2013
From: port23.co.uk at gmail.com (julian fincham)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 09:16:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] A few slots availible for custom 19" panels & custom 5u at
	50% off
Message-ID: <CANwCodt9OhoBi6stL+4fWURXBNMhQUudm0E4cAeHC0s2y9NN6g@mail.gmail.com>

I have a bunch of panels to make next week, and, due to the way the
runs are arranged, i have some irritating gaps.

Normally i just fill these with 'stock' panels, but i thought id try
something different and see what becomes of it? : )


So...

Gaps available -

3-off 19" x 1u rack panel size
3-off 5u x 1u MOTM / Oakley size
All 3.0mm natural anodised.


Terms -

You can have whatever you want on these (within my capabilities : )
I will charge exactly 50% of whatever FPD quotes you on the panel (for
EU customers, this will be the inc vat, ex delivery, price)
Your (final) files must be with me by Monday morning (13th) and you
must be good to make payment at around the same time (assuming your
works are assigned a place)


Notes -

In the case of higher demand (than expected!) I'm afraid ill go for
the higher value submissions.  This isn't entirely selfish - if i can
save someone a whole load of cash, against saving someone else only a
bit, it seems 'just' so give the most benefit.
Postage from me is always at cost price only.  I ship world wide.  I
take bank payments in GBP or Euro (both free), cards with Google
Checkout (standard surcharges) and Paypal (but *only* if its marked as
a 'personal' payment with all fees pre-paid)
Lead time will be about a week.



Due to life getting in the way, i have not been overly active on the
forums recently, but, if you want reminding of what i get up to, the
following link should show you -
http://www.thebeast.co.uk/cnc/index.html



Thank you,
Julian

The Beast UK Ltd
www.thebeast.co.uk


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Thu May  9 17:30:03 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 17:30:03 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Plotting the phase of a filter with FFT or a Phase
	Comparator?
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxL7tu4xxFfF5GfwaENwio9xqV_W4WCXpzJyiVgK=qM=Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUggB0rnEJTtpSHzWqrKnW-NnaSP7eugbk0QKe3cyOjH2g@mail.gmail.com>
	<5187BB41.6060608@gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUiOX196=za9SH-vPs_DqYMJoa5OecwVaEfvLcQ=2BtL+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMx+Ag9Yp5mhUUxjeAgvDP3vnt9QQphofkVncS-3yGXN0ig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhKePKj=hvXX5=up8_fUgy9cv6_owm83oCnFjKoP-810g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMxL7tu4xxFfF5GfwaENwio9xqV_W4WCXpzJyiVgK=qM=Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhBOcmSp0+3K_4LgpGPWLYD_Ze5d6v2f_oxbpt69ufpGg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Neil,
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've actually found Stewarts are sometimes *better* than eBay - I
> think for some stuff people get carried away.
> But I only mentioned them as a data point for comparison so you can
> get a rough idea of the relative prices this kind of kit goes for.

Can you recommend any other good places?

Cheers,
D.


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Thu May  9 19:05:13 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 19:05:13 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  Order analysis
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgTQjoZ+idH5VoBdHPT9JsqGEddKtgSYugPgwhu+cWfGw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,
when browsing through the Stewart of Reading catalogue as per Neil's
suggestion, I've found out about a really cool way to analyze
non-linearities called "order analysis". It lets you separate
non-linearities that are frequency dependent from ones that are not.

Here's a short intro:
<http://zone.ni.com/reference/en-XX/help/372416A-01/svtconcepts/intro_ord_ana/>

Basically, you make a sweep, say a sinewave from 10 to 1000 Hz, and
put it through your DUT. Then you un-sweep the output, that is you
pitch shift it so that the sine wave in the output is at a constant
frequency rather than sweeping. Finally, you do a spectral analysis.
Harmonics that are constant in amplitude are not frequency dependent,
harmonics that change in amplitude are frequency dependent. I've never
heard of this, but I can see immediate usability in a lot of fun audio
circuits.

Cheers,
D.

(at first I'd thought Order Analysis was something for timekeeping at
a service centre...)


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Thu May  9 21:52:15 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 21:52:15 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Top octave practices in old organs
In-Reply-To: <DC629A43-6EBD-4509-AF4C-4E94FF4D4796@electricdruid.net>
References: <f877fa2f721f1d13b3da05da1dabd3bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUiZE44S8eDeSsp+vK50NEKwb-14KyZorf3oDcC9FjSn4Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<212565CC-3477-413F-BD5E-4D914DB7C16E@electricdruid.net>
	<CA+9GZUgOeS1_Cs-u0f1y4OkJdQtY0xPiipzrTgTgGpX6MExD+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC629A43-6EBD-4509-AF4C-4E94FF4D4796@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiMhqUL=LjJ_fWKS8cuheAfFAFvMwQBsMW9WJ3aybiVYA@mail.gmail.com>

Ah right, I'm aware of this.

Cheers,
D.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> This is an example:
>
> http://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_electone_b-45.pdf/download.html
>
> Have a look at the way that the different "tones" are created on page 25 - one simple(ish) filter for each tone,derived from all the square waves at a particular footage, rather than one-per-tone (which would be on page 8 - the dividers).
>
> T.
>
> On 7 May 2013, at 19:55, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tom,
>> what are those filters you speak of? I'm trying to imagine what's
>> going on, but can't quite picture it.
>>
>> Of course organs have tone shaping filters, but I'm not sure how that
>> relates to what you say.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>>
>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>>> Seconded. It's fairly common practice to miss or repeat the highest or lowest frequencies. Hammond set the ball rolling way back in the 1930's and some (many? Survey results please!) who came after followed the same path.
>>> These days it's regarded as "character", and many digital clonewheels copy the effect.
>>>
>>> A similar short cut is to use one set of filters for all the tones from an octave or even for a whole manual. My Electone used to do this. Notes at the top end of a manual were noticeably quieter and mellower than the ones at the bottom. They sort-of got away with it because it only had 44-key manuals. With full-size keyboards, the effect would have been even more disturbing.
>>>
>>> T.
>>>
>>> On 7 May 2013, at 18:26, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi John,
>>>> I believe that's normal. That's what I've seen in Hammonds and Electones.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> D.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:06 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi-
>>>>>
>>>>> I just wrapped up the cleaning and restoration of a 1973 Wurlitzer
>>>>> Funmaker Organ.  In trying to determine if it's all working properly, I
>>>>> have some doubt about the upper keyboard top octave.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are three pipe settings: 4', 8', and 16'.  I found that the 4' and
>>>>> 8' pipes are missing from top C.  In the complete C-B flat octave below
>>>>> top C, the 4' pipe is missing.  It's almost as if the it was designed that
>>>>> way but I don't know that for sure.  Is that a common design practice from
>>>>> the era to deal with the lack of very high pipe frequencies?  Or does my
>>>>> organ have a subtle problem that I need to fix?
>>>>>
>>>>> JJS
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri May 10 00:41:03 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 23:41:03 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
Message-ID: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>

Hi all,

I'd like to pick the collective brains of this list's members, if I may. 
It's a question about analogue filter design...

I currently have an analysis filter bank designed for a Vocoder (will be a 
DSP implementation eventually.) Currently this consists of 20 bands.  Each 
of these is an 8th-order bandpass filter with 1/3rd octave bandwidth.  These 
filters are Linkwitz-Riley filters (sometimes called "Butterworth squared".) 
This ensures that adjacent filter band responses are both 6dB down and 
in-phase where bands meet, with the intention of getting the outputs of the 
entire filter bank to add up to a flat frequency response.  So far this 
works very nicely.  The resulting 20 analogue band-pass responses sum to a 
flat line with about +/-0.5dB ripple.

Now here's the catch.  I want to change the bottom filter band to be a 
low-pass response, and the top filter band to be a high-pass response.  Then 
these two filters will catch everything below, and everything above the main 
bank of 18 remaining bandpass filters.  My intuition was to design these to 
be Linkwitz-Riley low-pass and high-pass responses respectively, but when 
their outputs are summed with the other 18 bandpass filters the result 
doesn't add up anywhere near to a nice flat response!  In fact the very 
gradual roll-off of these L-R filters wrecks the summed response anywhere 
near each end of the filter bank.

I took a look at the excellent web page of Jurgen Haible about his Vocoder, 
and notice that his lowest and highest band's filters are lowpass and 
highpass like I want to implement.  However, their frequency responses seem 
to be Chebyshev type-1 responses.  I'm not sure how he arrived at this 
revalation to use Chebyshev filters for the lowest and highest bands, and 
unfortunately can't ask him.  So, can anyone explain to me the maths behind 
how this works?

Also, whilst Jurgen's Cheby low-pass and high-pass filters incorporate into 
the bank to give a relatively flat response compared to my attempts, I'm 
still a little concerned about the quite leasurely rate of roll-off in the 
stopbands for these filters at each end of the bank:

http://www.jhaible.com/vocoder/living_vocoder.html

I'd really like to understand what's going on here if someone can explain, 
or can point me towards some useful references.  Everything is simulations 
of Laplace functions for me at the moment, so I'm happy to talk maths 
instead of circuits if that's what's required!

Many thanks for reading,

-Richie Burnett, 



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Fri May 10 01:55:51 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 16:55:51 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
In-Reply-To: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>
References: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>
Message-ID: <9AF18E47DC6C4EBF8303CB2FF23F4823@galvanox01>

Chebyshev filters are known for steeper rolloff.  Indeed, an 8th-order
Chebyshev filter has the same rolloff as a 19th-order Butterworth filter.  A
Chebyshev II filter has a less steep rolloff, but no ripple in the passband.
An elliptic filter would have an even steeper rolloff than a Chebyshev
filter.

I'm not sure you're going to do much better.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of 
> Richie Burnett
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 3:41 PM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'd like to pick the collective brains of this list's 
> members, if I may. 
> It's a question about analogue filter design...
> 
> I currently have an analysis filter bank designed for a 
> Vocoder (will be a DSP implementation eventually.) Currently 
> this consists of 20 bands.  Each of these is an 8th-order 
> bandpass filter with 1/3rd octave bandwidth.  These filters 
> are Linkwitz-Riley filters (sometimes called "Butterworth 
> squared".) This ensures that adjacent filter band responses 
> are both 6dB down and in-phase where bands meet, with the 
> intention of getting the outputs of the entire filter bank to 
> add up to a flat frequency response.  So far this works very 
> nicely.  The resulting 20 analogue band-pass responses sum to 
> a flat line with about +/-0.5dB ripple.
> 
> Now here's the catch.  I want to change the bottom filter 
> band to be a low-pass response, and the top filter band to be 
> a high-pass response.  Then these two filters will catch 
> everything below, and everything above the main bank of 18 
> remaining bandpass filters.  My intuition was to design these 
> to be Linkwitz-Riley low-pass and high-pass responses 
> respectively, but when their outputs are summed with the 
> other 18 bandpass filters the result doesn't add up anywhere 
> near to a nice flat response!  In fact the very gradual 
> roll-off of these L-R filters wrecks the summed response 
> anywhere near each end of the filter bank.
> 
> I took a look at the excellent web page of Jurgen Haible 
> about his Vocoder, and notice that his lowest and highest 
> band's filters are lowpass and highpass like I want to 
> implement.  However, their frequency responses seem to be 
> Chebyshev type-1 responses.  I'm not sure how he arrived at 
> this revalation to use Chebyshev filters for the lowest and 
> highest bands, and unfortunately can't ask him.  So, can 
> anyone explain to me the maths behind how this works?
> 
> Also, whilst Jurgen's Cheby low-pass and high-pass filters 
> incorporate into the bank to give a relatively flat response 
> compared to my attempts, I'm still a little concerned about 
> the quite leasurely rate of roll-off in the stopbands for 
> these filters at each end of the bank:
> 
> http://www.jhaible.com/vocoder/living_vocoder.html
> 
> I'd really like to understand what's going on here if someone 
> can explain, or can point me towards some useful references.  
> Everything is simulations of Laplace functions for me at the 
> moment, so I'm happy to talk maths instead of circuits if 
> that's what's required!
> 
> Many thanks for reading,
> 
> -Richie Burnett, 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 10 07:38:55 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 07:38:55 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
In-Reply-To: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>
References: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUjVfMr9xZF-tvPt1MgZv1RwKWwkZhWhk7rK-Q1gFPxQ1A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Richie,
if this is digital, just sum up your band pass outputs, deduct them
from the input, and what's left is the upper and lower bands mixed
together. Then use a simple cross-over which centers somewhere in the
middle of the dead zone, one such that the pass-band has no phase
shift.

Cheers,
D.

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Richie Burnett
<rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to pick the collective brains of this list's members, if I may.
> It's a question about analogue filter design...
>
> I currently have an analysis filter bank designed for a Vocoder (will be a
> DSP implementation eventually.) Currently this consists of 20 bands.  Each
> of these is an 8th-order bandpass filter with 1/3rd octave bandwidth.  These
> filters are Linkwitz-Riley filters (sometimes called "Butterworth squared".)
> This ensures that adjacent filter band responses are both 6dB down and
> in-phase where bands meet, with the intention of getting the outputs of the
> entire filter bank to add up to a flat frequency response.  So far this
> works very nicely.  The resulting 20 analogue band-pass responses sum to a
> flat line with about +/-0.5dB ripple.
>
> Now here's the catch.  I want to change the bottom filter band to be a
> low-pass response, and the top filter band to be a high-pass response.  Then
> these two filters will catch everything below, and everything above the main
> bank of 18 remaining bandpass filters.  My intuition was to design these to
> be Linkwitz-Riley low-pass and high-pass responses respectively, but when
> their outputs are summed with the other 18 bandpass filters the result
> doesn't add up anywhere near to a nice flat response!  In fact the very
> gradual roll-off of these L-R filters wrecks the summed response anywhere
> near each end of the filter bank.
>
> I took a look at the excellent web page of Jurgen Haible about his Vocoder,
> and notice that his lowest and highest band's filters are lowpass and
> highpass like I want to implement.  However, their frequency responses seem
> to be Chebyshev type-1 responses.  I'm not sure how he arrived at this
> revalation to use Chebyshev filters for the lowest and highest bands, and
> unfortunately can't ask him.  So, can anyone explain to me the maths behind
> how this works?
>
> Also, whilst Jurgen's Cheby low-pass and high-pass filters incorporate into
> the bank to give a relatively flat response compared to my attempts, I'm
> still a little concerned about the quite leasurely rate of roll-off in the
> stopbands for these filters at each end of the bank:
>
> http://www.jhaible.com/vocoder/living_vocoder.html
>
> I'd really like to understand what's going on here if someone can explain,
> or can point me towards some useful references.  Everything is simulations
> of Laplace functions for me at the moment, so I'm happy to talk maths
> instead of circuits if that's what's required!
>
> Many thanks for reading,
>
> -Richie Burnett,
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Fri May 10 15:45:27 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 09:45:27 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
Message-ID: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>

Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..

A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original 
supply.
He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable
wall wart power supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
Ok. That's the start of the story.
So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics
were on 2 PCB's face to face, completely packed with
VERY TINY surface mount parts on both sides of each boards.
First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right
next to the supply connector so I started looking around
the surrounding parts.. oh man.. microscope job.. then I
decided it would be a good idea to order the service manual
to get the job done faster.
TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT
but I could order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay
for it. Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office 
gently emailed
me a PDF version of the manual for free.
So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out
where the problem could be in the circuitry.
My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
- a brief list of error messages trouble shooting
   (worthless because the unit was dead)
- parts Exploded view
- parts list
- small color prints of pcb's
  (both layers on top of each other so not readable)
That's it !

NO SCHEMATICS.

So the only thing that was left to me was to
ask TASCAM the cost of each of the 2 main boards
I cool swap for new ones to get the unit working.
Here is the reply I received:
Main board#1 $250.00US
Main board#2 $140.00US
Plus shipping.
FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
So here is my frustration explained:
For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of 
electronics courses:
- 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
- 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, 
development, etc..)
   this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's university course
   That's the one I chose to pickup.
In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did)
I always put my hands on repairable electronics.
The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge
to analyse and fix blown circuits. I earned experience out
of all my findings.
Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 
YEARS OF USE).
We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost
worthless. I talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they
would have the TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man
said to me:
We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic
stuff we sell and they mostly replace complete boards
without bothering what the blown part(s) were !!!!!
Conclusion:
Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed)
by 'REPLACE BOARDs' techs with small knowledge of electronics.
In the next future, only:
-repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, 
keyboards, etc..)
-R&D & electronic design houses
will be the only place left for us techs who
like to express our WIDE knowledge in our daily jobs.

Just my 3 cents !!
J-Pierre
Quebec City, Canada


From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Fri May 10 16:22:11 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 10:22:11 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP106411430AF40B22E9F066BC8A50@phx.gbl>



Sent from my iPhone

On May 10, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:

> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
> 
> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original supply.
> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable
> wall wart power supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
> Ok. That's the start of the story.
> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics
> were on 2 PCB's face to face, completely packed with
> VERY TINY surface mount parts on both sides of each boards.
> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right
> next to the supply connector so I started looking around
> the surrounding parts.. oh man.. microscope job.. then I
> decided it would be a good idea to order the service manual
> to get the job done faster.
> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT
> but I could order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay
> for it. Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently emailed
> me a PDF version of the manual for free.
> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out
> where the problem could be in the circuitry.
> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting
>  (worthless because the unit was dead)
> - parts Exploded view
> - parts list
> - small color prints of pcb's
> (both layers on top of each other so not readable)
> That's it !
> 
> NO SCHEMATICS.
> 
> So the only thing that was left to me was to
> ask TASCAM the cost of each of the 2 main boards
> I cool swap for new ones to get the unit working.
> Here is the reply I received:
> Main board#1 $250.00US
> Main board#2 $140.00US
> Plus shipping.
> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
> So here is my frustration explained:
> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of electronics courses:
> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, development, etc..)
>  this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's university course
>  That's the one I chose to pickup.
> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did)
> I always put my hands on repairable electronics.
> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge
> to analyse and fix blown circuits. I earned experience out
> of all my findings.
> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS OF USE).
> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost
> worthless. I talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they
> would have the TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man
> said to me:
> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic
> stuff we sell and they mostly replace complete boards
> without bothering what the blown part(s) were !!!!!
> Conclusion:
> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed)
> by 'REPLACE BOARDs' techs with small knowledge of electronics.
> In the next future, only:
> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, keyboards, etc..)
> -R&D & electronic design houses
> will be the only place left for us techs who
> like to express our WIDE knowledge in our daily jobs.
> 
> Just my 3 cents !!
> J-Pierre
> Quebec City, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Fri May 10 16:22:34 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 10:22:34 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP117986E1907D6959E2E8915C8A50@phx.gbl>

This is a very scary prospect.



On May 10, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:

> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
> 
> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original supply.
> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable
> wall wart power supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
> Ok. That's the start of the story.
> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics
> were on 2 PCB's face to face, completely packed with
> VERY TINY surface mount parts on both sides of each boards.
> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right
> next to the supply connector so I started looking around
> the surrounding parts.. oh man.. microscope job.. then I
> decided it would be a good idea to order the service manual
> to get the job done faster.
> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT
> but I could order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay
> for it. Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently emailed
> me a PDF version of the manual for free.
> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out
> where the problem could be in the circuitry.
> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting
>  (worthless because the unit was dead)
> - parts Exploded view
> - parts list
> - small color prints of pcb's
> (both layers on top of each other so not readable)
> That's it !
> 
> NO SCHEMATICS.
> 
> So the only thing that was left to me was to
> ask TASCAM the cost of each of the 2 main boards
> I cool swap for new ones to get the unit working.
> Here is the reply I received:
> Main board#1 $250.00US
> Main board#2 $140.00US
> Plus shipping.
> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
> So here is my frustration explained:
> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of electronics courses:
> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, development, etc..)
>  this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's university course
>  That's the one I chose to pickup.
> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did)
> I always put my hands on repairable electronics.
> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge
> to analyse and fix blown circuits. I earned experience out
> of all my findings.
> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS OF USE).
> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost
> worthless. I talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they
> would have the TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man
> said to me:
> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic
> stuff we sell and they mostly replace complete boards
> without bothering what the blown part(s) were !!!!!
> Conclusion:
> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed)
> by 'REPLACE BOARDs' techs with small knowledge of electronics.
> In the next future, only:
> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, keyboards, etc..)
> -R&D & electronic design houses
> will be the only place left for us techs who
> like to express our WIDE knowledge in our daily jobs.
> 
> Just my 3 cents !!
> J-Pierre
> Quebec City, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From barryklein at cox.net  Fri May 10 16:48:58 2013
From: barryklein at cox.net (Barry Klein)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 07:48:58 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP117986E1907D6959E2E8915C8A50@phx.gbl>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<BLU0-SMTP117986E1907D6959E2E8915C8A50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <001e01ce4d8d$80fffa70$82ffef50$@cox.net>

It is even worse: the manufacturer does not know how to repair the product
either and they don't go to the trouble of swapping circuit boards - just
trash the whole thing.  The damn schematics are getting impossible to read
due to thin lines and designers trying to put too much on one page.

On the repair: attach the unit to a bench supply that has current limit
capability.  Set the voltage to what it should be but limit the current in
small increments until you find the component that is heating up the most.
That's likely the bad part.  Just did this yesterday on a SMB server
motherboard with a 3.3V bus overload.  An IR camera would have been nice but
my finger worked ok in a pinch.

Maybe just think like most of this stuff started from sand and now is
returning to the Earth where it came from.  With a few exceptions - like
analog synthesizers - most technology products become unwanted - even if
they work - in just a few years.

Barry


-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Dan Snazelle
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 07:23
To: Jean-Pierre Desrochers
Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..

This is a very scary prospect.



On May 10, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
wrote:

> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
> 
> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original
supply.
> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable wall wart power 
> supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
> Ok. That's the start of the story.
> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics were on 2 PCB's 
> face to face, completely packed with VERY TINY surface mount parts on 
> both sides of each boards.
> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right next to the supply 
> connector so I started looking around the surrounding parts.. oh man.. 
> microscope job.. then I decided it would be a good idea to order the 
> service manual to get the job done faster.
> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT but I could 
> order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay for it. 
> Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently 
> emailed me a PDF version of the manual for free.
> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out where 
> the problem could be in the circuitry.
> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting  (worthless because 
> the unit was dead)
> - parts Exploded view
> - parts list
> - small color prints of pcb's
> (both layers on top of each other so not readable) That's it !
> 
> NO SCHEMATICS.
> 
> So the only thing that was left to me was to ask TASCAM the cost of 
> each of the 2 main boards I cool swap for new ones to get the unit 
> working.
> Here is the reply I received:
> Main board#1 $250.00US
> Main board#2 $140.00US
> Plus shipping.
> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
> So here is my frustration explained:
> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of
electronics courses:
> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, 
> development, etc..)  this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's 
> university course  That's the one I chose to pickup.
> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did) I always 
> put my hands on repairable electronics.
> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge to analyse and 
> fix blown circuits. I earned experience out of all my findings.
> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS
OF USE).
> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost worthless. I 
> talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they would have the 
> TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man said to me:
> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic stuff we 
> sell and they mostly replace complete boards without bothering what 
> the blown part(s) were !!!!!
> Conclusion:
> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed) by 'REPLACE BOARDs' 
> techs with small knowledge of electronics.
> In the next future, only:
> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, 
> keyboards, etc..) -R&D & electronic design houses will be the only 
> place left for us techs who like to express our WIDE knowledge in our 
> daily jobs.
> 
> Just my 3 cents !!
> J-Pierre
> Quebec City, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 10 17:19:26 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 17:19:26 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <001e01ce4d8d$80fffa70$82ffef50$@cox.net>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<BLU0-SMTP117986E1907D6959E2E8915C8A50@phx.gbl>
	<001e01ce4d8d$80fffa70$82ffef50$@cox.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUg9aOqOu=SPk3SMF+-=8MCn64Pjs-K+xKEVDRrqd0tRLg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Barry,

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Barry Klein <barryklein at cox.net> wrote:
> It is even worse: the manufacturer does not know how to repair the product
> either and they don't go to the trouble of swapping circuit boards - just
> trash the whole thing.  The damn schematics are getting impossible to read
> due to thin lines and designers trying to put too much on one page.
>
> On the repair: attach the unit to a bench supply that has current limit
> capability.  Set the voltage to what it should be but limit the current in
> small increments until you find the component that is heating up the most.
> That's likely the bad part.  Just did this yesterday on a SMB server
> motherboard with a 3.3V bus overload.  An IR camera would have been nice but
> my finger worked ok in a pinch.
>
> Maybe just think like most of this stuff started from sand and now is
> returning to the Earth where it came from.  With a few exceptions - like
> analog synthesizers - most technology products become unwanted - even if
> they work - in just a few years.
>
> Barry

There's a lot of other stuff, but it's always small niches.
Measurement equipment, specialist factory equipment, etc, generally
stuff that's supposed to be used by very technical people. This is why
I dread SMD synths. You can open it, look at it, but you can't touch
it, because if you try modding one of those then without a lot of
resin glue you're going to have a hard time even getting your mods to
hold onto the board. This is absolutely terrible. I think if people
want to use SMD, they should still put in through-hole footprints for
every component, or at least most of them, so that you can mod every
aspect of the circuit. Holes, even plated ones, don't cost that much
and don't take up a lot of space either. It's a huge shame that synth
and audio manufacturers don't let people mod their synths anymore.
It's lockdown, however you look at it.

D.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Dan Snazelle
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 07:23
> To: Jean-Pierre Desrochers
> Cc: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
>
> This is a very scary prospect.
>
>
>
> On May 10, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
>>
>> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
>> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original
> supply.
>> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable wall wart power
>> supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
>> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
>> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
>> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
>> Ok. That's the start of the story.
>> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics were on 2 PCB's
>> face to face, completely packed with VERY TINY surface mount parts on
>> both sides of each boards.
>> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right next to the supply
>> connector so I started looking around the surrounding parts.. oh man..
>> microscope job.. then I decided it would be a good idea to order the
>> service manual to get the job done faster.
>> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT but I could
>> order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
>> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay for it.
>> Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently
>> emailed me a PDF version of the manual for free.
>> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out where
>> the problem could be in the circuitry.
>> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
>> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting  (worthless because
>> the unit was dead)
>> - parts Exploded view
>> - parts list
>> - small color prints of pcb's
>> (both layers on top of each other so not readable) That's it !
>>
>> NO SCHEMATICS.
>>
>> So the only thing that was left to me was to ask TASCAM the cost of
>> each of the 2 main boards I cool swap for new ones to get the unit
>> working.
>> Here is the reply I received:
>> Main board#1 $250.00US
>> Main board#2 $140.00US
>> Plus shipping.
>> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
>> So here is my frustration explained:
>> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of
> electronics courses:
>> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
>> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software,
>> development, etc..)  this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's
>> university course  That's the one I chose to pickup.
>> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did) I always
>> put my hands on repairable electronics.
>> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
>> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge to analyse and
>> fix blown circuits. I earned experience out of all my findings.
>> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS
> OF USE).
>> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost worthless. I
>> talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they would have the
>> TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man said to me:
>> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
>> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic stuff we
>> sell and they mostly replace complete boards without bothering what
>> the blown part(s) were !!!!!
>> Conclusion:
>> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed) by 'REPLACE BOARDs'
>> techs with small knowledge of electronics.
>> In the next future, only:
>> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps,
>> keyboards, etc..) -R&D & electronic design houses will be the only
>> place left for us techs who like to express our WIDE knowledge in our
>> daily jobs.
>>
>> Just my 3 cents !!
>> J-Pierre
>> Quebec City, Canada
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From rob at audiocircus.co.uk  Fri May 10 17:42:53 2013
From: rob at audiocircus.co.uk (rob hukin)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 16:42:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <D33B00FD-CC66-4C87-BDA5-7223F3E4256A@audiocircus.co.uk>

Hi All,

My impression is that a lot of manufacturers only see their product at the board level - they simply never have the components themselves, even if they would be willing to distribute them...

rob.

On 10 May 2013, at 14:45, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:

> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
> 
> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original supply.
> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable
> wall wart power supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
> Ok. That's the start of the story.
> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics
> were on 2 PCB's face to face, completely packed with
> VERY TINY surface mount parts on both sides of each boards.
> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right
> next to the supply connector so I started looking around
> the surrounding parts.. oh man.. microscope job.. then I
> decided it would be a good idea to order the service manual
> to get the job done faster.
> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT
> but I could order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay
> for it. Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently emailed
> me a PDF version of the manual for free.
> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out
> where the problem could be in the circuitry.
> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting
>  (worthless because the unit was dead)
> - parts Exploded view
> - parts list
> - small color prints of pcb's
> (both layers on top of each other so not readable)
> That's it !
> 
> NO SCHEMATICS.
> 
> So the only thing that was left to me was to
> ask TASCAM the cost of each of the 2 main boards
> I cool swap for new ones to get the unit working.
> Here is the reply I received:
> Main board#1 $250.00US
> Main board#2 $140.00US
> Plus shipping.
> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
> So here is my frustration explained:
> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of electronics courses:
> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, development, etc..)
>  this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's university course
>  That's the one I chose to pickup.
> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did)
> I always put my hands on repairable electronics.
> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge
> to analyse and fix blown circuits. I earned experience out
> of all my findings.
> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS OF USE).
> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost
> worthless. I talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they
> would have the TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man
> said to me:
> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic
> stuff we sell and they mostly replace complete boards
> without bothering what the blown part(s) were !!!!!
> Conclusion:
> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed)
> by 'REPLACE BOARDs' techs with small knowledge of electronics.
> In the next future, only:
> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, keyboards, etc..)
> -R&D & electronic design houses
> will be the only place left for us techs who
> like to express our WIDE knowledge in our daily jobs.
> 
> Just my 3 cents !!
> J-Pierre
> Quebec City, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy




From davebr at earthlink.net  Fri May 10 18:18:19 2013
From: davebr at earthlink.net (Dave Brown)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 09:18:19 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <D33B00FD-CC66-4C87-BDA5-7223F3E4256A@audiocircus.co.uk>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<D33B00FD-CC66-4C87-BDA5-7223F3E4256A@audiocircus.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002a01ce4d99$fdb1b520$f9151f60$@earthlink.net>

This is true.  I used to work for a manufacturer who built their own PCBs.
Eventually they outsourced the assembly of the PCBs.  The outsourcer bought
all the parts so we had no access to them since all we bought was the
finished and tested PCB.  In house we still did service but stocking all the
parts internally negated all the cost savings of outsourcing the PCB
assembly.  Sometimes we would stock just the very unique parts and rely on
distributors to supply the rest.  Board exchange prices are very high, but
without specialized test fixtures, cable extenders, and such, the hourly
rate can get there pretty fast.

Many companies have also moved to outsourced design (ODM) and don't even
know anything about their designs.

I am about 50% successful with my email pleas for schematics with the
promise to not divulge them on the internet.  Usually the success is with
the older products.

I had a similar issue with a dead SMT guitar pedal.  I was probing around
with the 9V battery applied and burned my finger on a SMT part!  I couldn't
find the part initially because it had unsoldered itself from the PCB, stuck
on the end of my finger and then dropped to the bench!  9V batteries pack a
lot of energy.  The part was unmarked and my plea to that company did result
with a sympathy email with the identification.

In lieu of a IR camera, we would sometimes spray the board with cold spray
and see which parts heated up the fastest.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of rob hukin
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 8:43 AM
To: synthdiy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..

Hi All,

My impression is that a lot of manufacturers only see their product at the
board level - they simply never have the components themselves, even if they
would be willing to distribute them...

rob.

On 10 May 2013, at 14:45, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:

> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
> 
> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original
supply.
> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable wall wart power 
> supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
> Ok. That's the start of the story.
> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics were on 2 PCB's 
> face to face, completely packed with VERY TINY surface mount parts on 
> both sides of each boards.
> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right next to the supply 
> connector so I started looking around the surrounding parts.. oh man.. 
> microscope job.. then I decided it would be a good idea to order the 
> service manual to get the job done faster.
> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT but I could 
> order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay for it. 
> Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently 
> emailed me a PDF version of the manual for free.
> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out where 
> the problem could be in the circuitry.
> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting  (worthless because 
> the unit was dead)
> - parts Exploded view
> - parts list
> - small color prints of pcb's
> (both layers on top of each other so not readable) That's it !
> 
> NO SCHEMATICS.
> 
> So the only thing that was left to me was to ask TASCAM the cost of 
> each of the 2 main boards I cool swap for new ones to get the unit 
> working.
> Here is the reply I received:
> Main board#1 $250.00US
> Main board#2 $140.00US
> Plus shipping.
> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
> So here is my frustration explained:
> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of
electronics courses:
> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, 
> development, etc..)  this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's 
> university course  That's the one I chose to pickup.
> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did) I always 
> put my hands on repairable electronics.
> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge to analyse and 
> fix blown circuits. I earned experience out of all my findings.
> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS
OF USE).
> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost worthless. I 
> talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they would have the 
> TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man said to me:
> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic stuff we 
> sell and they mostly replace complete boards without bothering what 
> the blown part(s) were !!!!!
> Conclusion:
> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed) by 'REPLACE BOARDs' 
> techs with small knowledge of electronics.
> In the next future, only:
> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, 
> keyboards, etc..) -R&D & electronic design houses will be the only 
> place left for us techs who like to express our WIDE knowledge in our 
> daily jobs.
> 
> Just my 3 cents !!
> J-Pierre
> Quebec City, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy




From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Fri May 10 18:29:31 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 17:29:31 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <D33B00FD-CC66-4C87-BDA5-7223F3E4256A@audiocircus.co.uk>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<D33B00FD-CC66-4C87-BDA5-7223F3E4256A@audiocircus.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20130510162931.GA18275@gjcp.net>

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 04:42:53PM +0100, rob hukin wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> My impression is that a lot of manufacturers only see their product at the board level - they simply never have the components themselves, even if they would be willing to distribute them...
> 

Motorola are a bit like that, for radios.  You can get housings and odd bits and pieces like volume controls and channel selectors but that's *it* - the rest goes back to the factory.

The Chinese manufacturers are only happy to give out full circuit diagrams with proper diagnosis charts and board layouts, much like the old Kenwood and Motorola manuals of the 1980s.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri May 10 18:35:57 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 17:35:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
References: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>
	<9AF18E47DC6C4EBF8303CB2FF23F4823@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <B8F8E2D5D4EE49B58E66F177B4F5D988@homepc002>

> Chebyshev filters are known for steeper rolloff.  Indeed, an 8th-order
> Chebyshev filter has the same rolloff as a 19th-order Butterworth filter. 
> A
> Chebyshev II filter has a less steep rolloff, but no ripple in the 
> passband.
> An elliptic filter would have an even steeper rolloff than a Chebyshev
> filter.
>
> I'm not sure you're going to do much better.

I totally agree, David.  My problem is how to design these Chebyshev filters 
to join on to the ends of the bank of bandpass filters without their outputs 
messing up the overall combined response.

Jurgen Haible was obviously onto something by choosing Chebyshev filters for 
his bottom and top bands.  And, as you can see from the combined response 
graph on his web page these LP and HP filters don't trash the overall 
response too much when their outputs are mixed in.  There's a bit more 
ripple at the LF and HF ends but not too bad.

I realise that what trashes the combined response is constructive and 
destructive interference between the outputs of the various filters when 
they're mixed.  That much I understand.  Using Linkwitz-Riley filters for 
the bandpasses makes sure that adjacent band-edges meet at -6dB and 
in-phase, so summing to unity as they overlap.  I just don't know how to 
work the same magic with the Chebyshev lowpass at the bottom and the 
Chebyshev highpass filter at the top!  I think it has something to do with 
keeping the Chebyshev filter's output in-phase with the output from the band 
that it is adjacent to for the region where both filters output significent 
energy.  If the phase relationship between the Cheby's output and the 
bandpass's output varies drastically where they overlap there's gonna be 
lots of nasty peaks and dips in the combined response.

-Richie,



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri May 10 18:44:30 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 17:44:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
References: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>
	<CA+9GZUjVfMr9xZF-tvPt1MgZv1RwKWwkZhWhk7rK-Q1gFPxQ1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F5F255019CCC40B8BDD979895A7AE465@homepc002>

Hi, and thanks for the neat suggestion.  I hadn't thought of trying that.

However, unfortunately I don't think this trick is going to work for me.  In 
the digital implementation the bandpass filters all run at different sample 
rates to achieve gains in computational efficiency, therefore it would be 
hard for me to sum all the bandpass filter outputs back together, and then 
subtract this from the original input to get a residual.

The output from all the bandpass responses combined would also only be flat 
in amplitude, but the phase changes very abruptly at the cutoff frequency of 
each bandpass filter.  (You can think of all the band-pass filters adding up 
to one big "allpass filter" over the total frequency span, where the 
resulting amplitude is more-or-less flat, but the phase wiggles all over the 
place!)  This would result in a comb-filter type response when combined with 
the original input signal due to the varying phase shift.

-Richie,

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com>
To: "Richie Burnett" <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk>
Cc: "synth-diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help


> Hi Richie,
> if this is digital, just sum up your band pass outputs, deduct them
> from the input, and what's left is the upper and lower bands mixed
> together. Then use a simple cross-over which centers somewhere in the
> middle of the dead zone, one such that the pass-band has no phase
> shift.
>
> Cheers,
> D.
>
> On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Richie Burnett
> <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'd like to pick the collective brains of this list's members, if I may.
>> It's a question about analogue filter design...
>>
>> I currently have an analysis filter bank designed for a Vocoder (will be 
>> a
>> DSP implementation eventually.) Currently this consists of 20 bands. 
>> Each
>> of these is an 8th-order bandpass filter with 1/3rd octave bandwidth. 
>> These
>> filters are Linkwitz-Riley filters (sometimes called "Butterworth 
>> squared".)
>> This ensures that adjacent filter band responses are both 6dB down and
>> in-phase where bands meet, with the intention of getting the outputs of 
>> the
>> entire filter bank to add up to a flat frequency response.  So far this
>> works very nicely.  The resulting 20 analogue band-pass responses sum to 
>> a
>> flat line with about +/-0.5dB ripple.
>>
>> Now here's the catch.  I want to change the bottom filter band to be a
>> low-pass response, and the top filter band to be a high-pass response. 
>> Then
>> these two filters will catch everything below, and everything above the 
>> main
>> bank of 18 remaining bandpass filters.  My intuition was to design these 
>> to
>> be Linkwitz-Riley low-pass and high-pass responses respectively, but when
>> their outputs are summed with the other 18 bandpass filters the result
>> doesn't add up anywhere near to a nice flat response!  In fact the very
>> gradual roll-off of these L-R filters wrecks the summed response anywhere
>> near each end of the filter bank.
>>
>> I took a look at the excellent web page of Jurgen Haible about his 
>> Vocoder,
>> and notice that his lowest and highest band's filters are lowpass and
>> highpass like I want to implement.  However, their frequency responses 
>> seem
>> to be Chebyshev type-1 responses.  I'm not sure how he arrived at this
>> revalation to use Chebyshev filters for the lowest and highest bands, and
>> unfortunately can't ask him.  So, can anyone explain to me the maths 
>> behind
>> how this works?
>>
>> Also, whilst Jurgen's Cheby low-pass and high-pass filters incorporate 
>> into
>> the bank to give a relatively flat response compared to my attempts, I'm
>> still a little concerned about the quite leasurely rate of roll-off in 
>> the
>> stopbands for these filters at each end of the bank:
>>
>> http://www.jhaible.com/vocoder/living_vocoder.html
>>
>> I'd really like to understand what's going on here if someone can 
>> explain,
>> or can point me towards some useful references.  Everything is 
>> simulations
>> of Laplace functions for me at the moment, so I'm happy to talk maths
>> instead of circuits if that's what's required!
>>
>> Many thanks for reading,
>>
>> -Richie Burnett,
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 



From jspeth at avnera.com  Fri May 10 18:52:09 2013
From: jspeth at avnera.com (John Speth)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 09:52:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <D33B00FD-CC66-4C87-BDA5-7223F3E4256A@audiocircus.co.uk>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<D33B00FD-CC66-4C87-BDA5-7223F3E4256A@audiocircus.co.uk>
Message-ID: <a2ed7c13248b1689d51a7ce5415f0c35@mail.gmail.com>

What Rob says is correct.  I work in the biz - employed by a company that
contracts all manufacturing work to China.

Most consumer electronics use extremely inexpensive innards (save for a
biggies like HDTV panel displays, etc).  It totals a few bux in parts.
Literally.  Product lifetime is measured in months (< 18 months).  Design
cycles last a few weeks.  There is no time, desire, or profit for either
the design house nor the manufacturer to build up the systems that are
needed to support the product post-sale.  The upside is product quality
typically greatly exceeds the old style electronics.

The cold hard reality is companies are not in business to satisfy the
customer except to say that they all know customer satisfaction is the key
to sustaining sales in the brand.  They are in business to sell a product
and get as much money as possible for it.  If it works out of the box and
the price was seen as a huge bargain by the customer, it's mission
accomplished.

I sympathize.  I hate my stockpile of dead junk and that's why I hardly
ever buy it.  I love serviceable stuff and it's a major factor in my
buying decisions.  Electronics are dirt cheap.  It's the reality of the
days we live in.

JJS

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:synth-diy-
> bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of rob hukin
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 8:43 AM
> To: synthdiy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
>
> Hi All,
>
> My impression is that a lot of manufacturers only see their product at
the
> board level - they simply never have the components themselves, even if
they
> would be willing to distribute them...
>
> rob.
>
> On 10 May 2013, at 14:45, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:
>
> > Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
> >
> > A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
> > This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original
> supply.
> > He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable wall wart power
> > supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
> > Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
> > Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
> > The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
> > Ok. That's the start of the story.
> > So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics were on 2 PCB's
> > face to face, completely packed with VERY TINY surface mount parts on
> > both sides of each boards.
> > First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right next to the supply
> > connector so I started looking around the surrounding parts.. oh man..
> > microscope job.. then I decided it would be a good idea to order the
> > service manual to get the job done faster.
> > TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT but I could
> > order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
> > They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay for it.
> > Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently
> > emailed me a PDF version of the manual for free.
> > So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out where
> > the problem could be in the circuitry.
> > My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
> > - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting  (worthless because
> > the unit was dead)
> > - parts Exploded view
> > - parts list
> > - small color prints of pcb's
> > (both layers on top of each other so not readable) That's it !
> >
> > NO SCHEMATICS.
> >
> > So the only thing that was left to me was to ask TASCAM the cost of
> > each of the 2 main boards I cool swap for new ones to get the unit
> > working.
> > Here is the reply I received:
> > Main board#1 $250.00US
> > Main board#2 $140.00US
> > Plus shipping.
> > FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
> > So here is my frustration explained:
> > For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of
> electronics courses:
> > - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
> > - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software,
> > development, etc..)  this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's
> > university course  That's the one I chose to pickup.
> > In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did) I always
> > put my hands on repairable electronics.
> > The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
> > The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge to analyse and
> > fix blown circuits. I earned experience out of all my findings.
> > Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6
YEARS
> OF USE).
> > We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost worthless. I
> > talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they would have the
> > TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man said to me:
> > We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
> > The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic stuff we
> > sell and they mostly replace complete boards without bothering what
> > the blown part(s) were !!!!!
> > Conclusion:
> > Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed) by 'REPLACE BOARDs'
> > techs with small knowledge of electronics.
> > In the next future, only:
> > -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps,
> > keyboards, etc..) -R&D & electronic design houses will be the only
> > place left for us techs who like to express our WIDE knowledge in our
> > daily jobs.
> >
> > Just my 3 cents !!
> > J-Pierre
> > Quebec City, Canada
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From wackyvorlon at me.com  Fri May 10 19:10:59 2013
From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 13:10:59 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>

This is why I like analog synthesizers. They are one of the few things where component level repair is not only possible, but economically worthwhile. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 2013-05-10, at 9:45 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:

> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
> 
> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original supply.
> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable
> wall wart power supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
> Ok. That's the start of the story.
> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics
> were on 2 PCB's face to face, completely packed with
> VERY TINY surface mount parts on both sides of each boards.
> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right
> next to the supply connector so I started looking around
> the surrounding parts.. oh man.. microscope job.. then I
> decided it would be a good idea to order the service manual
> to get the job done faster.
> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT
> but I could order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay
> for it. Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently emailed
> me a PDF version of the manual for free.
> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out
> where the problem could be in the circuitry.
> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting
>  (worthless because the unit was dead)
> - parts Exploded view
> - parts list
> - small color prints of pcb's
> (both layers on top of each other so not readable)
> That's it !
> 
> NO SCHEMATICS.
> 
> So the only thing that was left to me was to
> ask TASCAM the cost of each of the 2 main boards
> I cool swap for new ones to get the unit working.
> Here is the reply I received:
> Main board#1 $250.00US
> Main board#2 $140.00US
> Plus shipping.
> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
> So here is my frustration explained:
> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of electronics courses:
> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, development, etc..)
>  this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's university course
>  That's the one I chose to pickup.
> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did)
> I always put my hands on repairable electronics.
> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge
> to analyse and fix blown circuits. I earned experience out
> of all my findings.
> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS OF USE).
> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost
> worthless. I talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they
> would have the TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man
> said to me:
> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic
> stuff we sell and they mostly replace complete boards
> without bothering what the blown part(s) were !!!!!
> Conclusion:
> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed)
> by 'REPLACE BOARDs' techs with small knowledge of electronics.
> In the next future, only:
> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, keyboards, etc..)
> -R&D & electronic design houses
> will be the only place left for us techs who
> like to express our WIDE knowledge in our daily jobs.
> 
> Just my 3 cents !!
> J-Pierre
> Quebec City, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 10 19:15:24 2013
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 19:15:24 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
In-Reply-To: <9AF18E47DC6C4EBF8303CB2FF23F4823@galvanox01>
References: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>
	<9AF18E47DC6C4EBF8303CB2FF23F4823@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <518D2B2C.5060106@rubidium.dyndns.org>

On 05/10/2013 01:55 AM, David G Dixon wrote:
> Chebyshev filters are known for steeper rolloff.  Indeed, an 8th-order
> Chebyshev filter has the same rolloff as a 19th-order Butterworth filter.  A
> Chebyshev II filter has a less steep rolloff, but no ripple in the passband.
> An elliptic filter would have an even steeper rolloff than a Chebyshev
> filter.

Ehm... The "knee" is sharper with Chebyshev, but the roll-off as you get 
away from the cut-off is about the same as equal pole Butterworth or 
Linkwitz-Riley. Elliptic filters or any other where you move the zeros 
closer to the cut-off will have roll-off which is quicker, but with the 
draw-back of far-out damping, but with the zeros dropped around the 
spectrum it will be sufficient damping.

Cheers,
Magnus

> I'm not sure you're going to do much better.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of
>> Richie Burnett
>> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 3:41 PM
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'd like to pick the collective brains of this list's
>> members, if I may.
>> It's a question about analogue filter design...
>>
>> I currently have an analysis filter bank designed for a
>> Vocoder (will be a DSP implementation eventually.) Currently
>> this consists of 20 bands.  Each of these is an 8th-order
>> bandpass filter with 1/3rd octave bandwidth.  These filters
>> are Linkwitz-Riley filters (sometimes called "Butterworth
>> squared".) This ensures that adjacent filter band responses
>> are both 6dB down and in-phase where bands meet, with the
>> intention of getting the outputs of the entire filter bank to
>> add up to a flat frequency response.  So far this works very
>> nicely.  The resulting 20 analogue band-pass responses sum to
>> a flat line with about +/-0.5dB ripple.
>>
>> Now here's the catch.  I want to change the bottom filter
>> band to be a low-pass response, and the top filter band to be
>> a high-pass response.  Then these two filters will catch
>> everything below, and everything above the main bank of 18
>> remaining bandpass filters.  My intuition was to design these
>> to be Linkwitz-Riley low-pass and high-pass responses
>> respectively, but when their outputs are summed with the
>> other 18 bandpass filters the result doesn't add up anywhere
>> near to a nice flat response!  In fact the very gradual
>> roll-off of these L-R filters wrecks the summed response
>> anywhere near each end of the filter bank.
>>
>> I took a look at the excellent web page of Jurgen Haible
>> about his Vocoder, and notice that his lowest and highest
>> band's filters are lowpass and highpass like I want to
>> implement.  However, their frequency responses seem to be
>> Chebyshev type-1 responses.  I'm not sure how he arrived at
>> this revalation to use Chebyshev filters for the lowest and
>> highest bands, and unfortunately can't ask him.  So, can
>> anyone explain to me the maths behind how this works?
>>
>> Also, whilst Jurgen's Cheby low-pass and high-pass filters
>> incorporate into the bank to give a relatively flat response
>> compared to my attempts, I'm still a little concerned about
>> the quite leasurely rate of roll-off in the stopbands for
>> these filters at each end of the bank:
>>
>> http://www.jhaible.com/vocoder/living_vocoder.html
>>
>> I'd really like to understand what's going on here if someone
>> can explain, or can point me towards some useful references.
>> Everything is simulations of Laplace functions for me at the
>> moment, so I'm happy to talk maths instead of circuits if
>> that's what's required!
>>
>> Many thanks for reading,
>>
>> -Richie Burnett,
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Fri May 10 19:43:59 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 18:43:59 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
Message-ID: <20130510174359.GB18275@gjcp.net>

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 01:10:59PM -0400, Paul Anderson wrote:
> This is why I like analog synthesizers. They are one of the few things where component level repair is not only possible, but economically worthwhile. 

It's a shame so many of them use fiddly annoying through-hole components...
Anything that's not surface-mount costs extra, here ;-)

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Fri May 10 20:01:23 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 11:01:23 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
Message-ID: <7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>

Hi All ,

Our value of getting Service manuals is manyfold.

It allows us to repair our products is some situations, and it allows many of us to improve upon a circuit or even have a good laugh in some cases.

Having worked at Oberheim, E-Mu, PPG Germany, I can tell you the value of good documentation and schematics.

When I started at PPG, there were no real schematics and revision control was a bit of a problem. No ECO system or real solid owners manuals in some cases. I spent a good deal of time putting those into place and still I am found wanting on how the PAL programs function in the circuit or timing  docs. 

Dependance on SSM or CES chips really are impacting some repairs on availability and cost. Unfortunately these things happen and it really is like trying to keep an old sports car alive and running. (Cars are easier in my opinion).

Many customers of Freescale DSP were wailing on the lack of continued DSP56xxx roadmap. We built the first DSP56001 in 1986 and it has had a good run I think and versions are still being produced.

The real problem is Stand alone DSP's getting fewer in number and are being pulled into SOC devices. Tools for SOC support are even in a more expensive category.

As I get older and my vision no better, I long for through hole devices again. SMT and BGA are needing traces to be so small that I now have to measure length for DDR design on ARM based products.

I think ARM based products will be a good departure from DSP's in functionality but it will be some time before they can perform DSP functions as nicely. 

I started as a tech for Tom Oberheim right after I finished Graduate school at UCLA, much of what I learned working there , I have carried forwards.

I quickly learned that using the tip of your nose was not a good idea for finding warm parts. The fellow next to me got a nice blister that day a part heated up on the SEM he was working on.

The methods of troubleshooting are being lost to board swapping and many shops will not do component level repair anymore for the same reasons listed in this thread.

The projects we all produce , need more documentation and software produced in an open forum teaches others how to do embedded software programming. We all start somewhere.

Just my 2 cents.

Terry Shultz
thx1138 at earthlink.net



On May 10, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:

> This is why I like analog synthesizers. They are one of the few things where component level repair is not only possible, but economically worthwhile. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 2013-05-10, at 9:45 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
> 
>> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
>> 
>> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
>> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original supply.
>> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable
>> wall wart power supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
>> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
>> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
>> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
>> Ok. That's the start of the story.
>> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics
>> were on 2 PCB's face to face, completely packed with
>> VERY TINY surface mount parts on both sides of each boards.
>> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right
>> next to the supply connector so I started looking around
>> the surrounding parts.. oh man.. microscope job.. then I
>> decided it would be a good idea to order the service manual
>> to get the job done faster.
>> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT
>> but I could order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
>> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay
>> for it. Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently emailed
>> me a PDF version of the manual for free.
>> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out
>> where the problem could be in the circuitry.
>> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
>> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting
>> (worthless because the unit was dead)
>> - parts Exploded view
>> - parts list
>> - small color prints of pcb's
>> (both layers on top of each other so not readable)
>> That's it !
>> 
>> NO SCHEMATICS.
>> 
>> So the only thing that was left to me was to
>> ask TASCAM the cost of each of the 2 main boards
>> I cool swap for new ones to get the unit working.
>> Here is the reply I received:
>> Main board#1 $250.00US
>> Main board#2 $140.00US
>> Plus shipping.
>> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
>> So here is my frustration explained:
>> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of electronics courses:
>> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
>> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, development, etc..)
>> this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's university course
>> That's the one I chose to pickup.
>> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did)
>> I always put my hands on repairable electronics.
>> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
>> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge
>> to analyse and fix blown circuits. I earned experience out
>> of all my findings.
>> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS OF USE).
>> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost
>> worthless. I talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they
>> would have the TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man
>> said to me:
>> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
>> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic
>> stuff we sell and they mostly replace complete boards
>> without bothering what the blown part(s) were !!!!!
>> Conclusion:
>> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed)
>> by 'REPLACE BOARDs' techs with small knowledge of electronics.
>> In the next future, only:
>> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, keyboards, etc..)
>> -R&D & electronic design houses
>> will be the only place left for us techs who
>> like to express our WIDE knowledge in our daily jobs.
>> 
>> Just my 3 cents !!
>> J-Pierre
>> Quebec City, Canada
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 10 21:00:59 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 21:00:59 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
In-Reply-To: <F5F255019CCC40B8BDD979895A7AE465@homepc002>
References: <F650D5D928DD43F4B0243DFD0DEDF273@homepc002>
	<CA+9GZUjVfMr9xZF-tvPt1MgZv1RwKWwkZhWhk7rK-Q1gFPxQ1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5F255019CCC40B8BDD979895A7AE465@homepc002>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUibmSwDuspyQKEYsWd=bZJ3Hm2DRq4pd_knm0i15qf=bg@mail.gmail.com>

Richie,
you might then want to do a series of cross-overs, with the lower-part
of each going to the next crossover that has a slightly lower
frequency.
But this might be a bad idea with 20 filters.. Especially if you're
not in a 64-bit world..

Cheers,
D.

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Richie Burnett
<rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi, and thanks for the neat suggestion.  I hadn't thought of trying that.
>
> However, unfortunately I don't think this trick is going to work for me.  In
> the digital implementation the bandpass filters all run at different sample
> rates to achieve gains in computational efficiency, therefore it would be
> hard for me to sum all the bandpass filter outputs back together, and then
> subtract this from the original input to get a residual.
>
> The output from all the bandpass responses combined would also only be flat
> in amplitude, but the phase changes very abruptly at the cutoff frequency of
> each bandpass filter.  (You can think of all the band-pass filters adding up
> to one big "allpass filter" over the total frequency span, where the
> resulting amplitude is more-or-less flat, but the phase wiggles all over the
> place!)  This would result in a comb-filter type response when combined with
> the original input signal due to the varying phase shift.
>
> -Richie,
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com>
>
> To: "Richie Burnett" <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk>
> Cc: "synth-diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 6:38 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Analysis filter bank help
>
>
>> Hi Richie,
>> if this is digital, just sum up your band pass outputs, deduct them
>> from the input, and what's left is the upper and lower bands mixed
>> together. Then use a simple cross-over which centers somewhere in the
>> middle of the dead zone, one such that the pass-band has no phase
>> shift.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>>
>> On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Richie Burnett
>> <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'd like to pick the collective brains of this list's members, if I may.
>>> It's a question about analogue filter design...
>>>
>>> I currently have an analysis filter bank designed for a Vocoder (will be
>>> a
>>> DSP implementation eventually.) Currently this consists of 20 bands. Each
>>> of these is an 8th-order bandpass filter with 1/3rd octave bandwidth.
>>> These
>>> filters are Linkwitz-Riley filters (sometimes called "Butterworth
>>> squared".)
>>> This ensures that adjacent filter band responses are both 6dB down and
>>> in-phase where bands meet, with the intention of getting the outputs of
>>> the
>>> entire filter bank to add up to a flat frequency response.  So far this
>>> works very nicely.  The resulting 20 analogue band-pass responses sum to
>>> a
>>> flat line with about +/-0.5dB ripple.
>>>
>>> Now here's the catch.  I want to change the bottom filter band to be a
>>> low-pass response, and the top filter band to be a high-pass response.
>>> Then
>>> these two filters will catch everything below, and everything above the
>>> main
>>> bank of 18 remaining bandpass filters.  My intuition was to design these
>>> to
>>> be Linkwitz-Riley low-pass and high-pass responses respectively, but when
>>> their outputs are summed with the other 18 bandpass filters the result
>>> doesn't add up anywhere near to a nice flat response!  In fact the very
>>> gradual roll-off of these L-R filters wrecks the summed response anywhere
>>> near each end of the filter bank.
>>>
>>> I took a look at the excellent web page of Jurgen Haible about his
>>> Vocoder,
>>> and notice that his lowest and highest band's filters are lowpass and
>>> highpass like I want to implement.  However, their frequency responses
>>> seem
>>> to be Chebyshev type-1 responses.  I'm not sure how he arrived at this
>>> revalation to use Chebyshev filters for the lowest and highest bands, and
>>> unfortunately can't ask him.  So, can anyone explain to me the maths
>>> behind
>>> how this works?
>>>
>>> Also, whilst Jurgen's Cheby low-pass and high-pass filters incorporate
>>> into
>>> the bank to give a relatively flat response compared to my attempts, I'm
>>> still a little concerned about the quite leasurely rate of roll-off in
>>> the
>>> stopbands for these filters at each end of the bank:
>>>
>>> http://www.jhaible.com/vocoder/living_vocoder.html
>>>
>>> I'd really like to understand what's going on here if someone can
>>> explain,
>>> or can point me towards some useful references.  Everything is
>>> simulations
>>> of Laplace functions for me at the moment, so I'm happy to talk maths
>>> instead of circuits if that's what's required!
>>>
>>> Many thanks for reading,
>>>
>>> -Richie Burnett,
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>


From dlmanley at sonic.net  Fri May 10 21:08:01 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 12:08:01 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
Message-ID: <pw9ptranyi4cl1v8hhq0s6x6.1368212881074@email.android.com>

Terry, about getting older and vision - pretty soon we wont be able to work on thru- hole without magnification so really it doesnt matter.  :-p

Get off my lawn you damn kids!!!

From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 10 21:11:35 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 21:11:35 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>

I really hope an audio company will start a trend of using SMT parts
to cut down the cost (and enable pick-and-place rather than those
human-operated, half-automatic stapler stations), but including
through-hole footprints for each part in case you want to modify or
fix things. I really think this is the way forward. I strongly believe
any hardware used by a person who is capable of fully understanding
how it works should be possible to modify by that person.

Rob, Dave, John, what do you guys say: does it really cost that much
more to put holes in your PCBs? Serious question. Bear in mind we're
talking about synth hardware, so there's a few options. The most
common is a short run (probably a 100 pcs), and a small pcb (think
eurorack modules). Then, how would things change if we were talking
about something like the MS-20 mini, which probably had a run of 10
000 made? What about the monotron, which is super cheap and probably
had a run of 100 000?

What about plated holes vs non-plated?

What about just having pads as a space for the user to drill holes if
needed? How would *this* change the manufacturing cost?

Thanks,
D.

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi All ,
>
> Our value of getting Service manuals is manyfold.
>
> It allows us to repair our products is some situations, and it allows many of us to improve upon a circuit or even have a good laugh in some cases.
>
> Having worked at Oberheim, E-Mu, PPG Germany, I can tell you the value of good documentation and schematics.
>
> When I started at PPG, there were no real schematics and revision control was a bit of a problem. No ECO system or real solid owners manuals in some cases. I spent a good deal of time putting those into place and still I am found wanting on how the PAL programs function in the circuit or timing  docs.
>
> Dependance on SSM or CES chips really are impacting some repairs on availability and cost. Unfortunately these things happen and it really is like trying to keep an old sports car alive and running. (Cars are easier in my opinion).
>
> Many customers of Freescale DSP were wailing on the lack of continued DSP56xxx roadmap. We built the first DSP56001 in 1986 and it has had a good run I think and versions are still being produced.
>
> The real problem is Stand alone DSP's getting fewer in number and are being pulled into SOC devices. Tools for SOC support are even in a more expensive category.
>
> As I get older and my vision no better, I long for through hole devices again. SMT and BGA are needing traces to be so small that I now have to measure length for DDR design on ARM based products.
>
> I think ARM based products will be a good departure from DSP's in functionality but it will be some time before they can perform DSP functions as nicely.
>
> I started as a tech for Tom Oberheim right after I finished Graduate school at UCLA, much of what I learned working there , I have carried forwards.
>
> I quickly learned that using the tip of your nose was not a good idea for finding warm parts. The fellow next to me got a nice blister that day a part heated up on the SEM he was working on.
>
> The methods of troubleshooting are being lost to board swapping and many shops will not do component level repair anymore for the same reasons listed in this thread.
>
> The projects we all produce , need more documentation and software produced in an open forum teaches others how to do embedded software programming. We all start somewhere.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>
>
>
> On May 10, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
>
>> This is why I like analog synthesizers. They are one of the few things where component level repair is not only possible, but economically worthwhile.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 2013-05-10, at 9:45 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Let me share with you something I stumbled on yesterday..
>>>
>>> A friend of mine own a TASCAM DR-2d portable digital audio recorder.
>>> This unit could run out of 2 x AA batteries OR a 5vdc TASCAM original supply.
>>> He had the bad idea to use a 'generic' adjustable
>>> wall wart power supply that was supposely at 4.5vdc hmmmm...
>>> Bad idea.. these suplies mostly comes unregulated.
>>> Too many volts ? bad polarity ? I'll never know.
>>> The result, the blown unit doesn't power up anymore.
>>> Ok. That's the start of the story.
>>> So I opened the unit to find that all the electronics
>>> were on 2 PCB's face to face, completely packed with
>>> VERY TINY surface mount parts on both sides of each boards.
>>> First I suspected a shorted protecting diode right
>>> next to the supply connector so I started looking around
>>> the surrounding parts.. oh man.. microscope job.. then I
>>> decided it would be a good idea to order the service manual
>>> to get the job done faster.
>>> TASCAM answered me the service manual was OUT OF PRINT
>>> but I could order it and get it by mail after a 2-3 weeks delay.
>>> They were not very clear about the cost and the way to pay
>>> for it. Finaly after around 6 emails TASCAM/TEAC California office gently emailed
>>> me a PDF version of the manual for free.
>>> So I was very anxious to check out the schematic and figure out
>>> where the problem could be in the circuitry.
>>> My reading was very short.. The service manual only contained
>>> - a brief list of error messages trouble shooting
>>> (worthless because the unit was dead)
>>> - parts Exploded view
>>> - parts list
>>> - small color prints of pcb's
>>> (both layers on top of each other so not readable)
>>> That's it !
>>>
>>> NO SCHEMATICS.
>>>
>>> So the only thing that was left to me was to
>>> ask TASCAM the cost of each of the 2 main boards
>>> I cool swap for new ones to get the unit working.
>>> Here is the reply I received:
>>> Main board#1 $250.00US
>>> Main board#2 $140.00US
>>> Plus shipping.
>>> FYI a brand new unit in its box sells today for around $189.00US !!!
>>> So here is my frustration explained:
>>> For short, in the 70's in Canada (were I live) there was 2 types of electronics courses:
>>> - 1 year short course aimed for small home and cars appliances repairs
>>> - 3 years complete course (analog, digital, logic, software, development, etc..)
>>> this course was VERY CLOSE to the engineer's university course
>>> That's the one I chose to pickup.
>>> In the past 40 years (beside the elect. development I did)
>>> I always put my hands on repairable electronics.
>>> The stuff were made using tubes, transistors, IC's, etc..
>>> The degree I got out of my course brought me knowledge
>>> to analyse and fix blown circuits. I earned experience out
>>> of all my findings.
>>> Now I'm facing a world of BUY, USE THEN THROW AWAY (AFTER AROUND 5-6 YEARS OF USE).
>>> We came up to a point where a qualified tech is almost
>>> worthless. I talked to a repair store near Quebec City maybe they
>>> would have the TASCAM service manual on hand and the repairs man
>>> said to me:
>>> We almost stopped using service manuals on new stuff..
>>> The techs know what problem comes often on the electronic
>>> stuff we sell and they mostly replace complete boards
>>> without bothering what the blown part(s) were !!!!!
>>> Conclusion:
>>> Now, new stuff can be repaired (when not disposed)
>>> by 'REPLACE BOARDs' techs with small knowledge of electronics.
>>> In the next future, only:
>>> -repair shops that fix old repairable stuff (radios, music amps, keyboards, etc..)
>>> -R&D & electronic design houses
>>> will be the only place left for us techs who
>>> like to express our WIDE knowledge in our daily jobs.
>>>
>>> Just my 3 cents !!
>>> J-Pierre
>>> Quebec City, Canada
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From ijfritz at comcast.net  Fri May 10 21:14:19 2013
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 13:14:19 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <pw9ptranyi4cl1v8hhq0s6x6.1368212881074@email.android.com>
References: <pw9ptranyi4cl1v8hhq0s6x6.1368212881074@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20130510131130.0265d908@mail.comcast.net>

At 01:08 PM 5/10/2013, Dave Manley wrote:
>Terry, about getting older and vision - pretty soon we wont be able to 
>work on thru- hole without magnification so really it doesnt matter.  :-p

I haven't been able to do that for years. A lot of the time I even need 
double magnification.  Don't worry about it though, it's not all that 
bad.  What's bad is when your shoulder is so screwed up you can't even lift 
the soldering iron.

Ian 



From music.maker at gte.net  Fri May 10 21:36:53 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 12:36:53 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
Message-ID: <201305101936.r4AJarJI032020@linux7.lan>


Ian Fritz <ijfritz at comcast.net> wrote:
>At 01:08 PM 5/10/2013, Dave Manley wrote:
>>Terry, about getting older and vision - pretty soon we wont be able to 
>>work on thru- hole without magnification so really it doesnt matter.  :-p
>
>I haven't been able to do that for years. A lot of the time I even need 
>double magnification.  Don't worry about it though, it's not all that 
>bad.  What's bad is when your shoulder is so screwed up you can't even lift 
>the soldering iron.
>

Heh - I thought I would never be able to solder SMD...  At least Schmartboards seem to
help, but one thing in my favor (and I'm a sexegenarian now) is the fact that I have
rather severe myopia.  It's correctable with lenses and if I take my spectacles off, my
eyes work like a low power microscope.  I've been able to solder (so far) down to .5 mm
pitch TQFP.  YMMV.

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From dlmanley at sonic.net  Fri May 10 22:19:11 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 13:19:11 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
Message-ID: <6hkkffcxfwvrcdvjnjtlk121.1368217151892@email.android.com>

What's that really old song: smoke gets in your eyes?

I can do the same, stii watch out for solder flicking off something into your eye.

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Scott Gravenhorst <music.maker at gte.net>
 Sent: Fri, May 10, 2013 12:36 PM
 To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 CC: 
 Subject: Re: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..

>
>Ian Fritz <ijfritz at comcast.net> wrote:
>>At 01:08 PM 5/10/2013, Dave Manley wrote:
>>>Terry, about getting older and vision - pretty soon we wont be able to 
>>>work on thru- hole without magnification so really it doesnt matter.  :-p
>>
>>I haven't been able to do that for years. A lot of the time I even need 
>>double magnification.  Don't worry about it though, it's not all that 
>>bad.  What's bad is when your shoulder is so screwed up you can't even lift 
>>the soldering iron.
>>
>
>Heh - I thought I would never be able to solder SMD...  At least Schmartboards seem to
>help, but one thing in my favor (and I'm a sexegenarian now) is the fact that I have
>rather severe myopia.  It's correctable with lenses and if I take my spectacles off, my
>eyes work like a low power microscope.  I've been able to solder (so far) down to .5 mm
>pitch TQFP.  YMMV.
>
>-- ScottG
>________________________________________________________________________
>-- Scott Gravenhorst
>-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
>-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
>-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
>-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From nvawter at media.mit.edu  Fri May 10 23:26:32 2013
From: nvawter at media.mit.edu (nvawter at media.mit.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 17:26:32 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130510172632.12256j1dwbwky2o8@webmail.media.mit.edu>

Quoting "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com>:

> I really hope an audio company will start a trend of using SMT parts
> to cut down the cost (and enable pick-and-place rather than those
> human-operated, half-automatic stapler stations), but including
> through-hole footprints for each part in case you want to modify or
> fix things.

Ah yes, I'm really in love with the current trend of CPU breakout boards...
They take care of the only thing that I need help with: SMT soldering.
Yes, I can solder SMD, but it takes me a long time and is error-prone  
for me, even though my vision is 20/20 and i have decent tools such as  
a stereo magnifier.

For example, this is a board I've posted about before which is  
inspiration for the one I'm currently designing:   
http://www.ghielectronics.com/catalog/product/353

Oh crap, I just saw that it's out-of-stock and marked 'Legacy'.  That  
was fast.

I really don't understand why people need things to be "massively  
small."  I believe it's just a fetish, up there with shininess.  I  
feel comfortable committing to things that are large if I know I'm  
going to use them for many years.



From nvawter at media.mit.edu  Fri May 10 23:28:26 2013
From: nvawter at media.mit.edu (nvawter at media.mit.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 17:28:26 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130510172826.81155v4t0hbox0u2@webmail.media.mit.edu>




Ah, i looked a little harder on that website I sent out and found that  
even though that particular module was end-of-life'd, there is a  
nearly identical replacement:
http://www.ghielectronics.com/catalog/product/450

In fact, it's better b/c for the same price ($25) it now includes the  
3.3V regulator and 32.768 kHz crystal.

-Noah




From jspeth at avnera.com  Fri May 10 23:33:40 2013
From: jspeth at avnera.com (John Speth)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 14:33:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>

> Rob, Dave, John, what do you guys say: does it really cost that much
more to
> put holes in your PCBs? Serious question.

Yes, it really does.  Every little thing contributes to cost.  Generally,
the smaller the better (lower product weight, less material, lower
shipping cost, etc).  Pennies count in a world where customers demand low
prices and capitalists demand high return on investment.

If the maker of a product could see a higher profit in making products
with thru hole, it'd be on the street in no time.  It'll probably never
happen though.

JJS


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May 11 00:01:21 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 00:01:21 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
	<17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgZVoJBX+jphtxuv7JFrxs4r6gNWw5bWDKg9YMeNt-XUQ@mail.gmail.com>

John,

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:33 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
>> Rob, Dave, John, what do you guys say: does it really cost that much
> more to
>> put holes in your PCBs? Serious question.
>
> Yes, it really does.  Every little thing contributes to cost.  Generally,
> the smaller the better (lower product weight, less material, lower
> shipping cost, etc).  Pennies count in a world where customers demand low
> prices and capitalists demand high return on investment.
>
> If the maker of a product could see a higher profit in making products
> with thru hole, it'd be on the street in no time.  It'll probably never
> happen though.
>
> JJS

Not really the answer I had been hoping for. Given 100 holes, how much
does it cost to do:

a) a hole, through-plated
b) a hole, non-plated
c) a pad which is a space for a hole

at amounts of 100 PCBs, 10 000 PCBs, 100 000 PCBs?

That's 10 000 holes, 1 000 000 holes, 10 000 000 holes.

Cheers,
D.


From elektrodwarf at yahoo.se  Sat May 11 00:50:20 2013
From: elektrodwarf at yahoo.se (Karl Ekdahl)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 23:50:20 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUgZVoJBX+jphtxuv7JFrxs4r6gNWw5bWDKg9YMeNt-XUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
	<17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUgZVoJBX+jphtxuv7JFrxs4r6gNWw5bWDKg9YMeNt-XUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1368226220.6470.YahooMailNeo@web172702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

There's the direct cost of PCB houses charging by the number of holes. But a bigger issue would be the design time involved in doing this and the fact that SMD only requires single-layer traces while through-hole is always two-layer, this could complicate designs and thus add even more design time to what's already added. Also, mirroring each footprint in a CAD software as a "double" (one SMD, one through-hole) could be a real hassle, either requiring redrawing of entire footprint libraries or require odd changes in schematic to keep the schematic->pcb correlation intact.?

Without really going to deeply into this thought-process i'm going to say that keeping it cheap and doing almost twice the work (not really, but you get the point) isn't really gonna go hand in hand. If customers would all be up for paying an extra 10-15% for a product because it was layed out as SMD/Through-hole dual, then i'm sure a lot of (the smaller) manufacturers would go for it. Sadly we can't just have a democratic vote and see whether we should go this route or not .. :)

In reference to the whole repair discussion, it still feels like a lot of products that aren't just made for "consumption" but that actually have some higher value (whether monetary or psychological) tries to keep "repairability" in mind. When i was doing repairs of music gear, amps etc. i quickly noticed what was made to be repaired and what wasn't; shit that people love and identifies with (nicer synths, most guitar amps etc.) was made to be able to get repaired. But consumer / some studio / some live sound stuff (porta studios, turntables, cheaper PAs, stompboxes) would never have proper documentation. That's how i learned to love Peavey - you call 'em up and ask for schematics and parts for say, a powered mixer from '78? Sure, they'll immediately send you schematics for free over e-mail and still have a stock pile of parts for sale!

Karl



----- Ursprungligt meddelande ----
Fr?n: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>
Till: John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com>
Kopia: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Skickat: fredag, 10 maj 2013 18:01
?mne: Re: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..

John,

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:33 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
>> Rob, Dave, John, what do you guys say: does it really cost that much
> more to
>> put holes in your PCBs? Serious question.
>
> Yes, it really does.? Every little thing contributes to cost.? Generally,
> the smaller the better (lower product weight, less material, lower
> shipping cost, etc).? Pennies count in a world where customers demand low
> prices and capitalists demand high return on investment.
>
> If the maker of a product could see a higher profit in making products
> with thru hole, it'd be on the street in no time.? It'll probably never
> happen though.
>
> JJS

Not really the answer I had been hoping for. Given 100 holes, how much
does it cost to do:

a) a hole, through-plated
b) a hole, non-plated
c) a pad which is a space for a hole

at amounts of 100 PCBs, 10 000 PCBs, 100 000 PCBs?

That's 10 000 holes, 1 000 000 holes, 10 000 000 holes.

Cheers,
D.
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jays at aracnet.com  Sat May 11 04:23:09 2013
From: jays at aracnet.com (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 19:23:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
	<17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01ce4dee$7a9a97b0$6fcfc710$@com>

Yep, that's the way it works.

If you are saving a $0.01 (or even less) in making a millon or even more
items that's a lot of money in your pocket. Getting  rid of that one
resistor in the circuit, shrinking the board by 0.1 sq inch, not drilling
those extra test fixture pads all adds up.

It seems there is a new trend starting to happen though. When all this
manufacturing went to China they just sent everything to be built there. Now
it seems that a lot of small volume manufacturiung is moving back to the
states. In a number of cases dealling with the hassles of doing the work
overseas became more expensive than just doing them here.

Jay S.


-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of John Speth
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 2:34 PM
To: cheater00 .; Terry Shultz
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..

> Rob, Dave, John, what do you guys say: does it really cost that much
more to
> put holes in your PCBs? Serious question.

Yes, it really does.  Every little thing contributes to cost.  Generally,
the smaller the better (lower product weight, less material, lower
shipping cost, etc).  Pennies count in a world where customers demand low
prices and capitalists demand high return on investment.

If the maker of a product could see a higher profit in making products
with thru hole, it'd be on the street in no time.  It'll probably never
happen though.

JJS
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy




From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Sat May 11 06:44:48 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 05:44:48 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <pw9ptranyi4cl1v8hhq0s6x6.1368212881074@email.android.com>
References: <pw9ptranyi4cl1v8hhq0s6x6.1368212881074@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <20130511044448.GA25332@gjcp.net>

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:08:01PM -0700, Dave Manley wrote:
> Terry, about getting older and vision - pretty soon we wont be able to work on thru- hole without magnification so really it doesnt matter.  :-p
> 
> Get off my lawn you damn kids!!!

I don't have the patience or dexterity any more to work on through-hole these days.  I only do surface-mount.  About the only through-hole stuff I'll do is my own synths, but I'm considering farming any repairs I need to do in the future out to someone else.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ



From mars at pingdynasty.com  Sat May 11 21:32:25 2013
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 20:32:25 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUgZVoJBX+jphtxuv7JFrxs4r6gNWw5bWDKg9YMeNt-XUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
	<17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUgZVoJBX+jphtxuv7JFrxs4r6gNWw5bWDKg9YMeNt-XUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E8B6C671-62D9-48EB-8612-47F9A66030D6@pingdynasty.com>


I use 0603 footprints for most SMT resistors and caps: 1.6 mm ? 0.8 mm, on one side.

Compare that to 7.5 or 10mm grid for through hole, on both sides -
how could you fit the same components with dual footprints without completely changing the size and layout of the board?
And what do you do with ic's?

I don't think you can ever arrive at an easy metric of 'x pence per hole, per board'.

If you want to make a comparison, I suggest you take some existing smt layouts that you are interested in and re-do them with dual footprints in the different ways that you propose.
Compare board fabbing costs, and add in the extra design time. Then you can get an idea of the real overhead.

Then take into consideration what the different layouts does to the performance of the board.
Are the tracks longer or shorter, digital and analog sections better or worse isolated, are the decoupling caps further removed; what is the effect of parasitic elements?

If you were to do this I'd look forward to hearing the results.

best,

/m


On 10 May 2013, at 23:01, cheater00 . wrote:

> John,
> 
> On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:33 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
>>> Rob, Dave, John, what do you guys say: does it really cost that much
>> more to
>>> put holes in your PCBs? Serious question.
>> 
>> Yes, it really does.  Every little thing contributes to cost.  Generally,
>> the smaller the better (lower product weight, less material, lower
>> shipping cost, etc).  Pennies count in a world where customers demand low
>> prices and capitalists demand high return on investment.
>> 
>> If the maker of a product could see a higher profit in making products
>> with thru hole, it'd be on the street in no time.  It'll probably never
>> happen though.
>> 
>> JJS
> 
> Not really the answer I had been hoping for. Given 100 holes, how much
> does it cost to do:
> 
> a) a hole, through-plated
> b) a hole, non-plated
> c) a pad which is a space for a hole
> 
> at amounts of 100 PCBs, 10 000 PCBs, 100 000 PCBs?
> 
> That's 10 000 holes, 1 000 000 holes, 10 000 000 holes.
> 
> Cheers,
> D.


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Sat May 11 21:55:31 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 20:55:31 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxLZytdCRc_w9hGKoTa_F-Jdg608_VJTir3c5nd7sjfBRg@mail.gmail.com>

Paul Anderson wrote:
> This is why I like analog synthesizers. They are one of the few things where
> component level repair is not only possible, but economically worthwhile.

Vintage:
- ARP potted modules.
- Korg 35 potted module.
- Yamaha potted modules.

Current:
- Hearn Morley potted VCO-1c (nice module by the way!)
- Schippman VCF-02 potted filter board.

Anything with SSMs or CEMs is living on borrowed time.

Not everything is repairable at the component level.
I remember a few years ago opening up an Elka Wilgamat III that was
misbehaving.  A couple of the PCBs were fully coated in black epoxy.
Definitely not repairable.

> Sent from my iPhone

....and one the main reasons for the state of consumer electronics
today.  Oh the irony!

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May 11 22:30:45 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 22:30:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <CAChMn9ccqRa4jRUuVrcRtd_Yogq5+CGwo9b5UfOjXALm4RcGkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
	<17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUgZVoJBX+jphtxuv7JFrxs4r6gNWw5bWDKg9YMeNt-XUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<E8B6C671-62D9-48EB-8612-47F9A66030D6@pingdynasty.com>
	<CAChMn9ccqRa4jRUuVrcRtd_Yogq5+CGwo9b5UfOjXALm4RcGkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUg3PvQNaWt_j837GLKxS7CUOaPisH7NDtwxU8j7zQmqiw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Martin,

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>
> I use 0603 footprints for most SMT resistors and caps: 1.6 mm ? 0.8 mm, on one side.
>
> Compare that to 7.5 or 10mm grid for through hole, on both sides -
> how could you fit the same components with dual footprints without completely changing the size and layout of the board?

Capacitors don't suddenly become bigger because they're through-hole.
I mean sure, the leads do have measurable size, but a tiny SMT
capacitor is still going to be tiny in DIP, and a big SIP one is going
to be big in SMT. I'm not sure how a capacitor that's 1.6x0.8mm would
suddenly become 10mm x 10mm just because it has through-hole leads,
unless you mean you'd change the capacitor type from say ceramic to
electrolytic. But that makes no sense. Besides, on packed through-hole
boards you usually put resistors and all other elements upright. So
the actual area of the board doesn't change as much as you suggest.

> And what do you do with ic's?

Well, ICs are a different thing. There are several situations one
might have here:

1. BGA digital IC
You're very unlikely to replace such an IC unless you're replacing it
with the same type. You're very, very unlikely to replace such an IC
with a subcircuit, but some people do that as well sometimes. We've
all seen old computers being upgraded by replacing the CPU with a
board that has several CPUs on it. The thing is, though, we're really
talking about analogue electronics here. The functionality of digital
electronics in BGA format is changed by modifying the code they run.
No reason to solder anything, usually, unless you have a fuse-blown IC
and need to rework it to place your own dev version on the board. If
you're placing such a circuit on a board, it would be nice if you'd:
i. place the digital section on a separate board, which could in any
case be fully replaced by something else (compare the new korg polysix
cpu boards)
ii. place enough room around the chip that it can be reworked with hot
air without too much hassle (adjacent chips unsoldering)

2. QFP or similar digital IC

The same really applies here as with BGAs, except those are easier to
rework without hot-air stations.

3. j-lead digital IC

Is it a hardware logic family, e.g. 74hc*? You'd be a nicer person if
you included a dip footprint around it. Is it something that only
comes in j-lead? Consider some of the earlier described things.

4. j-lead analog IC, BGA analog IC

Those come, but they're often accompanied by DIP versions. The most
likely situation is that people use SMT because it's much cheaper to
manufacture in SMT. It would be very nice if you included a dip
footprint around your part. If it's a part that doesn't come in a DIP
package, put a dip footprint around it anyways.

> I don't think you can ever arrive at an easy metric of 'x pence per hole, per board'.

No, I don't think you can.

> If you want to make a comparison, I suggest you take some existing smt layouts that you are interested in and re-do them with dual footprints in the different ways that you propose.
> Compare board fabbing costs, and add in the extra design time. Then you can get an idea of the real overhead.

That's definitely one way to find out first-hand. I'll try doing this
with any designs I'll be having made.

> Then take into consideration what the different layouts does to the performance of the board.
> Are the tracks longer or shorter, digital and analog sections better or worse isolated, are the decoupling caps further removed; what is the effect of parasitic elements?

weeeelll... track size, tight decoupling, etc is only going to matter
in high-speed digital. We're not necessarily talking about that here.

> If you were to do this I'd look forward to hearing the results.

Thanks!




Hi firemote,

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:51 PM, firemote <firemote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Right, you're limiting the potential of the design, increasing the time it
> takes to design,

Wellll... given that you most likely have to make footprints for most
of your devices anyways (standard footprints usually suck), it's not
like you're doing that much more by placing a hole here and there
while making the footprint.

> making it more expensive ("cheap" tweaks add up with scale)

not sure what you mean here? Can you explain?

> and indebting yourself to supporting a tiny, niche community

Who said you need to support modded devices?

> that would
> actually mod the devices (let alone needing to test those expansion
> possibilities) well past the lifespan of the unit, and well beyond the
> unit's spec.

Ah, well, that's the point. There should be a way to change the unit's
spec at will.

> Whether someone ought to offer these or not, it's not easy, and
> it's not cheap when all factors are taken into account.

I still haven't seen a great point made in favour of this opinion.

> Myself, I find that devoting effort to this would make it more likely that
> the product I'd receive might have a defect than it would save any time
> trying to repair and replace components after it's well end-of-life.

Are you saying the manufacturer is more likely to ship defective
devices? Why would that be?

Or are you saying you, as the manufacturer, are more likely to receive
defective devices to service? Why would you service devices with a
broken warranty seal?

> I'd
> just buy boutique products that design for this rather than expect this
> functionality to be provided through commodity instruments.

Right, I see you're operating under a false premise. I specifically
stated I'm talking about specialist equipment which is used by people
who are actually smart enough to know how to modify it. I'm not
talking about having through-hole footprints on an iphone.



> On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I use 0603 footprints for most SMT resistors and caps: 1.6 mm ? 0.8 mm, on
>> one side.
>>
>> Compare that to 7.5 or 10mm grid for through hole, on both sides -
>> how could you fit the same components with dual footprints without
>> completely changing the size and layout of the board?
>> And what do you do with ic's?
>>
>> I don't think you can ever arrive at an easy metric of 'x pence per hole,
>> per board'.
>>
>> If you want to make a comparison, I suggest you take some existing smt
>> layouts that you are interested in and re-do them with dual footprints in
>> the different ways that you propose.
>> Compare board fabbing costs, and add in the extra design time. Then you
>> can get an idea of the real overhead.
>>
>> Then take into consideration what the different layouts does to the
>> performance of the board.
>> Are the tracks longer or shorter, digital and analog sections better or
>> worse isolated, are the decoupling caps further removed; what is the effect
>> of parasitic elements?
>>
>> If you were to do this I'd look forward to hearing the results.
>>
>> best,
>>
>> /m
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2013, at 23:01, cheater00 . wrote:
>>
>> > John,
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:33 PM, John Speth <jspeth at avnera.com> wrote:
>> >>> Rob, Dave, John, what do you guys say: does it really cost that much
>> >> more to
>> >>> put holes in your PCBs? Serious question.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, it really does.  Every little thing contributes to cost.
>> >> Generally,
>> >> the smaller the better (lower product weight, less material, lower
>> >> shipping cost, etc).  Pennies count in a world where customers demand
>> >> low
>> >> prices and capitalists demand high return on investment.
>> >>
>> >> If the maker of a product could see a higher profit in making products
>> >> with thru hole, it'd be on the street in no time.  It'll probably never
>> >> happen though.
>> >>
>> >> JJS
>> >
>> > Not really the answer I had been hoping for. Given 100 holes, how much
>> > does it cost to do:
>> >
>> > a) a hole, through-plated
>> > b) a hole, non-plated
>> > c) a pad which is a space for a hole
>> >
>> > at amounts of 100 PCBs, 10 000 PCBs, 100 000 PCBs?
>> >
>> > That's 10 000 holes, 1 000 000 holes, 10 000 000 holes.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May 11 23:36:43 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 23:36:43 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
In-Reply-To: <000f01ce4dee$7a9a97b0$6fcfc710$@com>
References: <7b5d79501edd1abf079d03d2ea7f0b6d@oricom.ca>
	<5D16DF11-4845-4518-87D7-7DADB7FAE222@me.com>
	<7520F880-BEE1-40E1-BEB2-A13FB7E30EB5@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUhn_d0rGFYx=8fCX3RHWwz0AqCAEwh8dpa3hOybfpc46A@mail.gmail.com>
	<17e0869e1826df885a3f7b2c5fe5255b@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01ce4dee$7a9a97b0$6fcfc710$@com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUj1be4qE=hCXSyoGykeaCWcW31yPigSMQ97dzEvUAdavw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jay,
most niche equipment doesn't get produced in such amounts. Most synth
modules never leave double digits.. saving a penny per unit doesn't
bring amazing $aving$.

Cheers,
D.

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 4:23 AM, Jay Schwichtenberg <jays at aracnet.com> wrote:
> Yep, that's the way it works.
>
> If you are saving a $0.01 (or even less) in making a millon or even more
> items that's a lot of money in your pocket. Getting  rid of that one
> resistor in the circuit, shrinking the board by 0.1 sq inch, not drilling
> those extra test fixture pads all adds up.
>
> It seems there is a new trend starting to happen though. When all this
> manufacturing went to China they just sent everything to be built there. Now
> it seems that a lot of small volume manufacturiung is moving back to the
> states. In a number of cases dealling with the hassles of doing the work
> overseas became more expensive than just doing them here.
>
> Jay S.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of John Speth
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 2:34 PM
> To: cheater00 .; Terry Shultz
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] My frustration as a technician..
>
>> Rob, Dave, John, what do you guys say: does it really cost that much
> more to
>> put holes in your PCBs? Serious question.
>
> Yes, it really does.  Every little thing contributes to cost.  Generally,
> the smaller the better (lower product weight, less material, lower
> shipping cost, etc).  Pennies count in a world where customers demand low
> prices and capitalists demand high return on investment.
>
> If the maker of a product could see a higher profit in making products
> with thru hole, it'd be on the street in no time.  It'll probably never
> happen though.
>
> JJS
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Sun May 12 15:15:22 2013
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 14:15:22 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Clearing :: PCB-Assembly-Jig FS UK (Cliff)
Message-ID: <518F95EA.5000902@bugbrand.co.uk>

Hey,
I'm beginning some clearing out of the workshop.
First item to offer is like this:
http://uk.farnell.com/cliff-electronic-components/wf2/assembly-jig-pcb-aluminium/dp/439770
Cliff WF2 Assembly Jig
Bought a few years ago from Rapid - I used it a bit for a couple of 
years, but has been sat in the basement (no, not a massively damp one) 
since I moved workshop 3 years ago.

It is in generally pretty good condition. Some tarnishing to the metal, 
but only minor cosmetic. And the foam pad is somewhat discoloured, but 
still soft & fine.

New price seems to be around ?165+VAT

How about ?80?
Ideal would be Bristol pickup, UK shipping would be easy or further 
afield a possibility - happy to post at cost.
Pictures on request.

Ta, Tom

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From don at till.com  Wed May 15 05:05:27 2013
From: don at till.com (Donald Tillman)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 20:05:27 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Synth DIY Etsy Battle makes Hacker News
Message-ID: <1D69CB30-CF06-4E44-BB2E-3959203DDD76@till.com>

For your amusement:

    Hacker News --
    Etsy accused me of not assembling my synths by hand and shut down my shop
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5708018

  -- Don

--
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com






From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Wed May 15 14:33:06 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 05:33:06 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
Message-ID: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>

Hi All,

I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter modules.

I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.

Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid VCA design?

I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get to explore a whole new analog approach again.


I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.

Any thoughts?


Terry Shultz
thx1138 at earthlink.net





From nate at paperproductsmusic.com  Wed May 15 14:39:37 2013
From: nate at paperproductsmusic.com (Nathanael King)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:39:37 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>

Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an ssm2164
available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Controlled_Amplifier.shtml

Nate

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and it is
> time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter modules.
>
> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>
> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid VCA
> design?
>
> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get to
> explore a whole new analog approach again.
>
>
> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester
> Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy




--
Nate King
Paper Products Music


From osalas at electronic-sea.net  Wed May 15 15:22:37 2013
From: osalas at electronic-sea.net (Oscar Salas)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 16:22:37 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ed6dbde0846d2ee1a3d2215a8111335f.squirrel@webmail.electronic-sea.net>

I made this:
http://electronic-sea.net/tessera.html

> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an ssm2164
> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Controlled_Amplifier.shtml
>
> Nate
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and it
>> is
>> time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter modules.
>>
>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>
>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid VCA
>> design?
>>
>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get to
>> explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>
>>
>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester
>> Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>> Terry Shultz
>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
>
>
> --
> Nate King
> Paper Products Music
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>


electronic-sea.net



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Wed May 15 16:15:37 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 16:15:37 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Terry,
people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has met with
great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent to the SSM
2164.

Cheers,
Damian

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
<nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an ssm2164
> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Controlled_Amplifier.shtml
>
> Nate
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and it is
>> time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter modules.
>>
>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>
>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid VCA
>> design?
>>
>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get to
>> explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>
>>
>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester
>> Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>> Terry Shultz
>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
>
>
> --
> Nate King
> Paper Products Music
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Wed May 15 17:11:00 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:11:00 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>

Hi Damian,

Any cost idea on small volume usage?

Regards,

Terry

Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Terry,
> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has met with
> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent to the SSM
> 2164.
> 
> Cheers,
> Damian
> 
> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an ssm2164
>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Controlled_Amplifier.shtml
>> 
>> Nate
>> 
>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi All,
>>> 
>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and it is
>>> time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter modules.
>>> 
>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>> 
>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid VCA
>>> design?
>>> 
>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get to
>>> explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester
>>> Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
>>> 
>>> Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Terry Shultz
>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Nate King
>> Paper Products Music
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Wed May 15 17:17:20 2013
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 16:17:20 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5193A700.1050502@bugbrand.co.uk>

http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50 singles // 
comes down quickly from there in multiples..

On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
> Hi Damian,
>
> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Terry,
>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has met with
>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent to the SSM
>> 2164.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Damian
>>
>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an ssm2164
>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Controlled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>
>>> Nate
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and it is
>>>> time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter modules.
>>>>
>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid VCA
>>>> design?
>>>>
>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get to
>>>> explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester
>>>> Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nate King
>>> Paper Products Music
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From colin at colinfraser.com  Wed May 15 17:23:05 2013
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 16:23:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AA1D4F12D7BB4308B44C0AB071454A3C@c57d>

 
> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong (though I've got the input levels in the
right area, and the linearising diodes fed the right current), but I'm
finding the LM13600 as a VCA hisses like a snake with a lisp.

Cheers,
Colin f




From kingravine at comcast.net  Wed May 15 17:30:12 2013
From: kingravine at comcast.net (Dave Magnuson)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 11:30:12 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005a01ce5181$18ab8cd0$4a02a670$@comcast.net>

Hi Terry,

You can get the v2164 at Small Bear for about $3-$4 each

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:synth-diy-
> bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Terry Shultz
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:11 AM
> To: cheater00 .
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl List
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
> 
> Hi Damian,
> 
> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Terry
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Terry,
> > people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has met with
> > great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent to the SSM
> > 2164.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Damian
> >
> > On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
> > <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
> >> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an ssm2164
> >> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
> >> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-
> Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Con
> >> trolled_Amplifier.shtml
> >>
> >> Nate
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and
> >>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter
modules.
> >>>
> >>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
> >>>
> >>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid
> >>> VCA design?
> >>>
> >>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get
> >>> to explore a whole new analog approach again.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester
> >>> Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
> >>>
> >>> Any thoughts?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Terry Shultz
> >>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Nate King
> >> Paper Products Music
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Wed May 15 17:37:13 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:37:13 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <005a01ce5181$18ab8cd0$4a02a670$@comcast.net>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
	<005a01ce5181$18ab8cd0$4a02a670$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AE590E67-8844-4B0B-AD39-336ED99F3C91@earthlink.net>

Hi Dave,

Thanks four your feedback and to all the other guys as well.

On a different note, I spoke to Tom Oberheim last week, and he indicated that he was using the lm13600 based devices otherwise his new SEM was pretty close to his original design.

Best regards,

Terry

Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Dave Magnuson" <kingravine at comcast.net> wrote:

> Hi Terry,
> 
> You can get the v2164 at Small Bear for about $3-$4 each
> 
> Dave
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:synth-diy-
>> bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Terry Shultz
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:11 AM
>> To: cheater00 .
>> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl List
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
>> 
>> Hi Damian,
>> 
>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Terry
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Terry,
>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has met with
>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent to the SSM
>>> 2164.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Damian
>>> 
>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an ssm2164
>>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-
>> Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Con
>>>> trolled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>> 
>>>> Nate
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and
>>>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter
> modules.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid
>>>>> VCA design?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get
>>>>> to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester
>>>>> Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Nate King
>>>> Paper Products Music
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Wed May 15 18:28:02 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 18:28:02 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <AE590E67-8844-4B0B-AD39-336ED99F3C91@earthlink.net>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
	<005a01ce5181$18ab8cd0$4a02a670$@comcast.net>
	<AE590E67-8844-4B0B-AD39-336ED99F3C91@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUh_H9sNjPs8uVm6JRMPOygMxq4zA9=naFNms_SYSofQNg@mail.gmail.com>

I'd say that's definitely an improvement. Old OTAs were absolutely terrible :)

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Thanks four your feedback and to all the other guys as well.
>
> On a different note, I spoke to Tom Oberheim last week, and he indicated that he was using the lm13600 based devices otherwise his new SEM was pretty close to his original design.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Terry
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 15, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Dave Magnuson" <kingravine at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Terry,
>>
>> You can get the v2164 at Small Bear for about $3-$4 each
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:synth-diy-
>>> bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Terry Shultz
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:11 AM
>>> To: cheater00 .
>>> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl List
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
>>>
>>> Hi Damian,
>>>
>>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Terry,
>>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has met with
>>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent to the SSM
>>>> 2164.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Damian
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an ssm2164
>>>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-
>>> Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Con
>>>>> trolled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>>>
>>>>> Nate
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my boards and
>>>>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active filter
>> modules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a Solid
>>>>>> VCA design?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I get
>>>>>> to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but Rochester
>>>>>> Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nate King
>>>>> Paper Products Music
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed May 15 18:30:37 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:30:37 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <5193A700.1050502@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net><CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com><CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com><30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
	<5193A700.1050502@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FE17442A37054109A1C2DE928E54482A@galvanox01>

I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed in the last three
years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you will get very familiar
with the fine print of the datasheet, especially if you try to do
unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  Just don't try
to power it up backwards.  Unlike most opamps, it will self-destruct
instantly (as would the SSM2164).


> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50 
> singles // comes down quickly from there in multiples..
> 
> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
> > Hi Damian,
> >
> > Any cost idea on small volume usage?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Terry
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ." 
> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Terry,
> >> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has 
> met with 
> >> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent 
> to the SSM 
> >> 2164.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Damian
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King 
> >> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
> >>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have 
> an ssm2164 
> >>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
> >>> 
> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
> >>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
> >>>
> >>> Nate
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz 
> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>> Hi All,
> >>>>
> >>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my 
> boards and 
> >>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal 
> Active filter modules.
> >>>>
> >>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
> >>>>
> >>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of 
> building a Solid 
> >>>> VCA design?
> >>>>
> >>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I 
> >>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but 
> >>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018, 
> SSM2122 devices.
> >>>>
> >>>> Any thoughts?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Terry Shultz
> >>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Nate King
> >>> Paper Products Music
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >
> >
> 
> --
> BugBrand LTD
> UK company No. 07199808
> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
> 1 Ninetree Hill
> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
> United Kingdom
> www.bugbrand.co.uk
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed May 15 18:32:47 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:32:47 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUh_H9sNjPs8uVm6JRMPOygMxq4zA9=naFNms_SYSofQNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net><CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com><CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com><30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net><005a01ce5181$18ab8cd0$4a02a670$@comcast.net><AE590E67-8844-4B0B-AD39-336ED99F3C91@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUh_H9sNjPs8uVm6JRMPOygMxq4zA9=naFNms_SYSofQNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60DFE69E1F2243ACB10F8C8C13CD3CEB@galvanox01>

I stopped using OTAs entirely.  Now, it's all 2164, all the time,
exponential and linearized.


> I'd say that's definitely an improvement. Old OTAs were 
> absolutely terrible :)
> 
> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Terry Shultz 
> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > Thanks four your feedback and to all the other guys as well.
> >
> > On a different note, I spoke to Tom Oberheim last week, and 
> he indicated that he was using the lm13600 based devices 
> otherwise his new SEM was pretty close to his original design.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Terry
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On May 15, 2013, at 8:30 AM, "Dave Magnuson" 
> <kingravine at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Terry,
> >>
> >> You can get the v2164 at Small Bear for about $3-$4 each
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:synth-diy- 
> >>> bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Terry Shultz
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:11 AM
> >>> To: cheater00 .
> >>> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl List
> >>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
> >>>
> >>> Hi Damian,
> >>>
> >>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Terry
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ." 
> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Terry,
> >>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 
> has met with 
> >>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent to the 
> >>>> SSM 2164.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Damian
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King 
> >>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have an 
> >>>>> ssm2164 available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
> >>>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-
> >>> Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Con
> >>>>> trolled_Amplifier.shtml
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nate
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz 
> >>>>> <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on 
> my boards 
> >>>>>> and it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal Active 
> >>>>>> filter
> >> modules.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. 
> VCA devices.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of building a 
> >>>>>> Solid VCA design?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 
> years, so I 
> >>>>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but 
> >>>>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ 
> SSM2018, SSM2122 devices.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Any thoughts?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Terry Shultz
> >>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Nate King
> >>>>> Paper Products Music
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Wed May 15 19:35:18 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 19:35:18 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <FE17442A37054109A1C2DE928E54482A@galvanox01>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
	<5193A700.1050502@bugbrand.co.uk>
	<FE17442A37054109A1C2DE928E54482A@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiEDYehJJS4NiTRg1bC5M50MhznHmUKuw1MyR4zV5OfXw@mail.gmail.com>

Self-destruction! And I thought this thread was going to end up boring ;-)

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:30 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed in the last three
> years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you will get very familiar
> with the fine print of the datasheet, especially if you try to do
> unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  Just don't try
> to power it up backwards.  Unlike most opamps, it will self-destruct
> instantly (as would the SSM2164).
>
>
>> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50
>> singles // comes down quickly from there in multiples..
>>
>> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
>> > Hi Damian,
>> >
>> > Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Terry
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ."
>> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Terry,
>> >> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has
>> met with
>> >> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent
>> to the SSM
>> >> 2164.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Damian
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>> >> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>> >>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have
>> an ssm2164
>> >>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>> >>>
>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
>> >>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
>> >>>
>> >>> Nate
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz
>> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >>>> Hi All,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my
>> boards and
>> >>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal
>> Active filter modules.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of
>> building a Solid
>> >>>> VCA design?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I
>> >>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but
>> >>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018,
>> SSM2122 devices.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Any thoughts?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Terry Shultz
>> >>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> >>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Nate King
>> >>> Paper Products Music
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> >>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> BugBrand LTD
>> UK company No. 07199808
>> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
>> 1 Ninetree Hill
>> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
>> United Kingdom
>> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed May 15 19:42:21 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:42:21 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiEDYehJJS4NiTRg1bC5M50MhznHmUKuw1MyR4zV5OfXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
	<5193A700.1050502@bugbrand.co.uk>
	<FE17442A37054109A1C2DE928E54482A@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUiEDYehJJS4NiTRg1bC5M50MhznHmUKuw1MyR4zV5OfXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <248F57679F6340E39255BA46692E7139@galvanox01>

Well, it's not exciting, like installing a 78L05 backwards (the flat face of
the TO-92 package literally blew across the room -- it could easily have
taken out my eye had I been staring at it up close).  When 2164s self
destruct, there's no outward sign (except overheating, perhaps).  They just
cease to work, and any circuit with them in will give off a high-pitched
whine.


> Self-destruction! And I thought this thread was going to end 
> up boring ;-)
> 
> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:30 PM, David G Dixon 
> <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> > I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed 
> in the last 
> > three years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you 
> will get very 
> > familiar with the fine print of the datasheet, especially 
> if you try 
> > to do unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  
> > Just don't try to power it up backwards.  Unlike most 
> opamps, it will 
> > self-destruct instantly (as would the SSM2164).
> >
> >
> >> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50 
> singles // 
> >> comes down quickly from there in multiples..
> >>
> >> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
> >> > Hi Damian,
> >> >
> >> > Any cost idea on small volume usage?
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> >
> >> > Terry
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my iPad
> >> >
> >> > On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ."
> >> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Terry,
> >> >> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has
> >> met with
> >> >> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent
> >> to the SSM
> >> >> 2164.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> Damian
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King 
> >> >> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
> >> >>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have
> >> an ssm2164
> >> >>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
> >> >>>
> >> 
> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
> >> >>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Nate
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz
> >> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >>>> Hi All,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my
> >> boards and
> >> >>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal
> >> Active filter modules.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. 
> VCA devices.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of
> >> building a Solid
> >> >>>> VCA design?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 
> years, so I 
> >> >>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but 
> >> >>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018,
> >> SSM2122 devices.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Any thoughts?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Terry Shultz
> >> >>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> >>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> >>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Nate King
> >> >>> Paper Products Music
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> >>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> >>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Synth-diy mailing list
> >> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> BugBrand LTD
> >> UK company No. 07199808
> >> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
> >> 1 Ninetree Hill
> >> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
> >> United Kingdom
> >> www.bugbrand.co.uk
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Wed May 15 19:50:01 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:50:01 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiEDYehJJS4NiTRg1bC5M50MhznHmUKuw1MyR4zV5OfXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
	<5193A700.1050502@bugbrand.co.uk>
	<FE17442A37054109A1C2DE928E54482A@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUiEDYehJJS4NiTRg1bC5M50MhznHmUKuw1MyR4zV5OfXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <708A728B-1177-41B8-A508-B333ACEF433A@earthlink.net>

Well, I try to entertain a little.

Normally, I try not to impress with extensive knowledge. I can learn a lot of new tricks if I listen and don't talk at the same time.

Unfortunately, I have spent too much time in designing chips, and have been passed by newer audio solutions.

Remember, it has been since 1985, since I have done any new synth modules. 

Since then, old friends like Doug Curtis and Ron Dow have passed away and so has many of the products.

Evan Brooks, cofounder of Digidesign contacted me back in March and suggested I re-enter the analog designs again. He feels this market might still have some sales going forward.

We'll see.
Regards,

Terry


Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2013, at 10:35 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Self-destruction! And I thought this thread was going to end up boring ;-)
> 
> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:30 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed in the last three
>> years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you will get very familiar
>> with the fine print of the datasheet, especially if you try to do
>> unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  Just don't try
>> to power it up backwards.  Unlike most opamps, it will self-destruct
>> instantly (as would the SSM2164).
>> 
>> 
>>> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50
>>> singles // comes down quickly from there in multiples..
>>> 
>>> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
>>>> Hi Damian,
>>>> 
>>>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Terry
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ."
>>> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Terry,
>>>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has
>>> met with
>>>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent
>>> to the SSM
>>>>> 2164.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Damian
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>>>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have
>>> an ssm2164
>>>>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
>>>>>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nate
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz
>>> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my
>>> boards and
>>>>>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal
>>> Active filter modules.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of
>>> building a Solid
>>>>>>> VCA design?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I
>>>>>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but
>>>>>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018,
>>> SSM2122 devices.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nate King
>>>>>> Paper Products Music
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> 
>>> --
>>> BugBrand LTD
>>> UK company No. 07199808
>>> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
>>> 1 Ninetree Hill
>>> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
>>> United Kingdom
>>> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dlmanley at sonic.net  Wed May 15 20:03:31 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 11:03:31 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
Message-ID: <b2ans847x4emnhf6df8e3x46.1368641011727@email.android.com>

Terry, who is Ron Dow?  I've not run across his name before.

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
 Sent: Wed, May 15, 2013 10:50 AM
 To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>
 CC: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
 Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design

>Well, I try to entertain a little.
>
>Normally, I try not to impress with extensive knowledge. I can learn a lot of new tricks if I listen and don't talk at the same time.
>
>Unfortunately, I have spent too much time in designing chips, and have been passed by newer audio solutions.
>
>Remember, it has been since 1985, since I have done any new synth modules. 
>
>Since then, old friends like Doug Curtis and Ron Dow have passed away and so has many of the products.
>
>Evan Brooks, cofounder of Digidesign contacted me back in March and suggested I re-enter the analog designs again. He feels this market might still have some sales going forward.
>
>We'll see.
>Regards,
>
>Terry
>
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On May 15, 2013, at 10:35 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Self-destruction! And I thought this thread was going to end up boring ;-)
>> 
>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:30 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>> I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed in the last three
>>> years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you will get very familiar
>>> with the fine print of the datasheet, especially if you try to do
>>> unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  Just don't try
>>> to power it up backwards.  Unlike most opamps, it will self-destruct
>>> instantly (as would the SSM2164).
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50
>>>> singles // comes down quickly from there in multiples..
>>>> 
>>>> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
>>>>> Hi Damian,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terry
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ."
>>>> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Terry,
>>>>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has
>>>> met with
>>>>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent
>>>> to the SSM
>>>>>> 2164.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Damian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>>>>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have
>>>> an ssm2164
>>>>>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
>>>>>>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nate
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz
>>>> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my
>>>> boards and
>>>>>>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal
>>>> Active filter modules.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of
>>>> building a Solid
>>>>>>>> VCA design?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I
>>>>>>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but
>>>>>>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018,
>>>> SSM2122 devices.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Nate King
>>>>>>> Paper Products Music
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> BugBrand LTD
>>>> UK company No. 07199808
>>>> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
>>>> 1 Ninetree Hill
>>>> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
>>>> United Kingdom
>>>> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Wed May 15 20:16:49 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 11:16:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <b2ans847x4emnhf6df8e3x46.1368641011727@email.android.com>
References: <b2ans847x4emnhf6df8e3x46.1368641011727@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <4CD301D7-9A2F-4BAD-A1D3-4A8E181D8CC0@earthlink.net>

Hi Dave,

Ron Dow designed a good deal of the early SSM devices when I worked at e-mu back in the late 1970's to 1984.  PMI bought out ssmt and adi bought out pmi. Precision monolithics inc.

Ron, Dan parks , Dave rossum and I were all working on emulator, audity, drumulator and the last of the modular e-mu products.

Best regards,

Terry

Sent from my iPad

On May 15, 2013, at 11:03 AM, Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net> wrote:

> Terry, who is Ron Dow?  I've not run across his name before.
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Wed, May 15, 2013 10:50 AM
> To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>
> CC: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
> 
>> Well, I try to entertain a little.
>> 
>> Normally, I try not to impress with extensive knowledge. I can learn a lot of new tricks if I listen and don't talk at the same time.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, I have spent too much time in designing chips, and have been passed by newer audio solutions.
>> 
>> Remember, it has been since 1985, since I have done any new synth modules. 
>> 
>> Since then, old friends like Doug Curtis and Ron Dow have passed away and so has many of the products.
>> 
>> Evan Brooks, cofounder of Digidesign contacted me back in March and suggested I re-enter the analog designs again. He feels this market might still have some sales going forward.
>> 
>> We'll see.
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Terry
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On May 15, 2013, at 10:35 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Self-destruction! And I thought this thread was going to end up boring ;-)
>>> 
>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:30 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>>> I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed in the last three
>>>> years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you will get very familiar
>>>> with the fine print of the datasheet, especially if you try to do
>>>> unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  Just don't try
>>>> to power it up backwards.  Unlike most opamps, it will self-destruct
>>>> instantly (as would the SSM2164).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50
>>>>> singles // comes down quickly from there in multiples..
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Damian,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Terry
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ."
>>>>> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Terry,
>>>>>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has
>>>>> met with
>>>>>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent
>>>>> to the SSM
>>>>>>> 2164.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Damian
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>>>>>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have
>>>>> an ssm2164
>>>>>>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
>>>>>>>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Nate
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz
>>>>> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my
>>>>> boards and
>>>>>>>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal
>>>>> Active filter modules.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of
>>>>> building a Solid
>>>>>>>>> VCA design?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I
>>>>>>>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but
>>>>>>>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018,
>>>>> SSM2122 devices.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Nate King
>>>>>>>> Paper Products Music
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> BugBrand LTD
>>>>> UK company No. 07199808
>>>>> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
>>>>> 1 Ninetree Hill
>>>>> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 


From dlmanley at sonic.net  Wed May 15 21:10:17 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 12:10:17 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
Message-ID: <n9otimu5p44mk1s5n02hc8g8.1368645017217@email.android.com>

Thanks for the info.  Another list member mentioned google and "ron dow ssm" does turn up some interesting articles.  Always cool to read about the pioneers of integrated analog synthesizers.

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
 Sent: Wed, May 15, 2013 11:16 AM
 To: Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net>
 CC: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
 Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design

>Hi Dave,
>
>Ron Dow designed a good deal of the early SSM devices when I worked at e-mu back in the late 1970's to 1984.  PMI bought out ssmt and adi bought out pmi. Precision monolithics inc.
>
>Ron, Dan parks , Dave rossum and I were all working on emulator, audity, drumulator and the last of the modular e-mu products.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Terry
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On May 15, 2013, at 11:03 AM, Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> Terry, who is Ron Dow?  I've not run across his name before.
>> 
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> From: Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
>> Sent: Wed, May 15, 2013 10:50 AM
>> To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>
>> CC: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
>> 
>>> Well, I try to entertain a little.
>>> 
>>> Normally, I try not to impress with extensive knowledge. I can learn a lot of new tricks if I listen and don't talk at the same time.
>>> 
>>> Unfortunately, I have spent too much time in designing chips, and have been passed by newer audio solutions.
>>> 
>>> Remember, it has been since 1985, since I have done any new synth modules. 
>>> 
>>> Since then, old friends like Doug Curtis and Ron Dow have passed away and so has many of the products.
>>> 
>>> Evan Brooks, cofounder of Digidesign contacted me back in March and suggested I re-enter the analog designs again. He feels this market might still have some sales going forward.
>>> 
>>> We'll see.
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Terry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On May 15, 2013, at 10:35 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Self-destruction! And I thought this thread was going to end up boring ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:30 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>>>> I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed in the last three
>>>>> years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you will get very familiar
>>>>> with the fine print of the datasheet, especially if you try to do
>>>>> unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  Just don't try
>>>>> to power it up backwards.  Unlike most opamps, it will self-destruct
>>>>> instantly (as would the SSM2164).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50
>>>>>> singles // comes down quickly from there in multiples..
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Damian,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Terry
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ."
>>>>>> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Terry,
>>>>>>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has
>>>>>> met with
>>>>>>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent
>>>>>> to the SSM
>>>>>>>> 2164.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Damian
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>>>>>>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have
>>>>>> an ssm2164
>>>>>>>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>>>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
>>>>>>>>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Nate
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz
>>>>>> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my
>>>>>> boards and
>>>>>>>>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal
>>>>>> Active filter modules.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of
>>>>>> building a Solid
>>>>>>>>>> VCA design?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I
>>>>>>>>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but
>>>>>>>>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018,
>>>>>> SSM2122 devices.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>>>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Nate King
>>>>>>>>> Paper Products Music
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> BugBrand LTD
>>>>>> UK company No. 07199808
>>>>>> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
>>>>>> 1 Ninetree Hill
>>>>>> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
>>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>>> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> 
>

From cheater00 at gmail.com  Wed May 15 22:51:23 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 22:51:23 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <n9otimu5p44mk1s5n02hc8g8.1368645017217@email.android.com>
References: <n9otimu5p44mk1s5n02hc8g8.1368645017217@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUjayaHojg5nVNf9QVXv8OKxfi4kngD27sVAmNOvR620EA@mail.gmail.com>

Don't worry, Terry has a lot you can read about him in the archives!

Cheers,
D.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 9:10 PM, Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net> wrote:
> Thanks for the info.  Another list member mentioned google and "ron dow ssm" does turn up some interesting articles.  Always cool to read about the pioneers of integrated analog synthesizers.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>  From: Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
>  Sent: Wed, May 15, 2013 11:16 AM
>  To: Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net>
>  CC: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>  Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
>
>>Hi Dave,
>>
>>Ron Dow designed a good deal of the early SSM devices when I worked at e-mu back in the late 1970's to 1984.  PMI bought out ssmt and adi bought out pmi. Precision monolithics inc.
>>
>>Ron, Dan parks , Dave rossum and I were all working on emulator, audity, drumulator and the last of the modular e-mu products.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Terry
>>
>>Sent from my iPad
>>
>>On May 15, 2013, at 11:03 AM, Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Terry, who is Ron Dow?  I've not run across his name before.
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> From: Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net>
>>> Sent: Wed, May 15, 2013 10:50 AM
>>> To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>
>>> CC: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
>>>
>>>> Well, I try to entertain a little.
>>>>
>>>> Normally, I try not to impress with extensive knowledge. I can learn a lot of new tricks if I listen and don't talk at the same time.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, I have spent too much time in designing chips, and have been passed by newer audio solutions.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, it has been since 1985, since I have done any new synth modules.
>>>>
>>>> Since then, old friends like Doug Curtis and Ron Dow have passed away and so has many of the products.
>>>>
>>>> Evan Brooks, cofounder of Digidesign contacted me back in March and suggested I re-enter the analog designs again. He feels this market might still have some sales going forward.
>>>>
>>>> We'll see.
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Terry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On May 15, 2013, at 10:35 AM, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Self-destruction! And I thought this thread was going to end up boring ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:30 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed in the last three
>>>>>> years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you will get very familiar
>>>>>> with the fine print of the datasheet, especially if you try to do
>>>>>> unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  Just don't try
>>>>>> to power it up backwards.  Unlike most opamps, it will self-destruct
>>>>>> instantly (as would the SSM2164).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50
>>>>>>> singles // comes down quickly from there in multiples..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Damian,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Terry
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ."
>>>>>>> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Terry,
>>>>>>>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has
>>>>>>> met with
>>>>>>>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent
>>>>>>> to the SSM
>>>>>>>>> 2164.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Damian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King
>>>>>>>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have
>>>>>>> an ssm2164
>>>>>>>>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>>>>>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
>>>>>>>>>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nate
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz
>>>>>>> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my
>>>>>>> boards and
>>>>>>>>>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal
>>>>>>> Active filter modules.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. VCA devices.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of
>>>>>>> building a Solid
>>>>>>>>>>> VCA design?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 years, so I
>>>>>>>>>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but
>>>>>>>>>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018,
>>>>>>> SSM2122 devices.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>>>>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Nate King
>>>>>>>>>> Paper Products Music
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> BugBrand LTD
>>>>>>> UK company No. 07199808
>>>>>>> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
>>>>>>> 1 Ninetree Hill
>>>>>>> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
>>>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>>>> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Wed May 15 23:46:00 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 14:46:00 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Quad VCA design
In-Reply-To: <248F57679F6340E39255BA46692E7139@galvanox01>
References: <C45A8EAB-9060-4C28-B80C-EC3336E5A9C9@earthlink.net>
	<CAOysfL4v4ermWnOmK-UyqgjEdLLmsYPtc9c_kcwe9LNCbTUdmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUh==phDaDpOsRKyHju-9K8uOORWe4gnGUajQuk6qN=xbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<30D0B291-1089-4676-8C73-017F5227FEE8@earthlink.net>
	<5193A700.1050502@bugbrand.co.uk>
	<FE17442A37054109A1C2DE928E54482A@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUiEDYehJJS4NiTRg1bC5M50MhznHmUKuw1MyR4zV5OfXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<248F57679F6340E39255BA46692E7139@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <C6307B86-67AF-4604-870F-AFED1E4FA09D@earthlink.net>

Hola Oscar,

I located in the Los Angeles, California area.

I worked for Tom Oberheim, located in Santa Monica on 9th St., right after I finished my Master's in Music at UCLA in 1977. BSEE from UCLA in 1975.

Later I started my own business doing Service, Design etc. I licensed the E-Mu Poly Keyboard patent in 1976 and built custom Keyboard systems for Musicians. I went to E-Mu full time in 1982 and then to PPG in Hamburg in 1985-85 time frame.

Upon returning to USA in March 1985, I took a job with Motorola Semi. and worked on the DSP56001 project and I recently left Freescale Inc. on Mid November 2012.

Much of my work was with Consumer and Pro Audio applications using DSP and ARM processors i.e. Home Theater, 3-D Headphones, Sound BAr, Car Head unit etc.

I am working on bring back analogue Modules and some digital modules. At present I need to get my web site running and start to advertise a bit.

Stay tuned...


Terry Shultz
thx1138 at earthlink.net



On May 15, 2013, at 10:42 AM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:

> Well, it's not exciting, like installing a 78L05 backwards (the flat face of
> the TO-92 package literally blew across the room -- it could easily have
> taken out my eye had I been staring at it up close).  When 2164s self
> destruct, there's no outward sign (except overheating, perhaps).  They just
> cease to work, and any circuit with them in will give off a high-pitched
> whine.
> 
> 
>> Self-destruction! And I thought this thread was going to end 
>> up boring ;-)
>> 
>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:30 PM, David G Dixon 
>> <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>> I have used V2164 in virtually every module I've designed 
>> in the last 
>>> three years, and it's brilliant.  It has its quirks (you 
>> will get very 
>>> familiar with the fine print of the datasheet, especially 
>> if you try 
>>> to do unconventional stuff with it), but it is a solid performer.  
>>> Just don't try to power it up backwards.  Unlike most 
>> opamps, it will 
>>> self-destruct instantly (as would the SSM2164).
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=737 - $3.50 
>> singles // 
>>>> comes down quickly from there in multiples..
>>>> 
>>>> On 15/05/2013 16:11, Terry Shultz wrote:
>>>>> Hi Damian,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any cost idea on small volume usage?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terry
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 15, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "cheater00 ."
>>>> <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Terry,
>>>>>> people here really like the CoolAudio chips. The V2164 has
>>>> met with
>>>>>> great reception on the list and is a very good equivalent
>>>> to the SSM
>>>>>> 2164.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Damian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Nathanael King 
>>>>>> <nate at paperproductsmusic.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Not only does THAT have the 2180 line, but they also have
>>>> an ssm2164
>>>>>>> available in 2 vcas (2162) in a surface mount package.
>>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> http://www.thatcorp.com/2162_Dual_Pre-Trimmed_Blackmer_IC_Voltage-Co
>>>>>>> ntrolled_Amplifier.shtml
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nate
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Terry Shultz
>>>> <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have finally used the last of my SSM2020 devices on my
>>>> boards and
>>>>>>>> it is time to re-design the Quad VCA and Universal
>>>> Active filter modules.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I was looking at the LM13600/LM13700 and THAT Corp. 
>> VCA devices.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Any thoughts on those devices vs. other methods of
>>>> building a Solid
>>>>>>>> VCA design?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have not had to re-build these modules for over 25 
>> years, so I 
>>>>>>>> get to explore a whole new analog approach again.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I will not use the Grey Market SSM's if I can help it, but 
>>>>>>>> Rochester Electronics seem to have SSMSSM 2014/ SSM2018,
>>>> SSM2122 devices.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>>>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Nate King
>>>>>>> Paper Products Music
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> BugBrand LTD
>>>> UK company No. 07199808
>>>> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
>>>> 1 Ninetree Hill
>>>> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
>>>> United Kingdom
>>>> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Thu May 16 16:05:16 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 10:05:16 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
Message-ID: <79be14a3b59a0b531e3fe53332f25274@oricom.ca>

I know this could be a silly question but
I was wondering if there was any 'standard' on
minimum spacing to respect between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules ??
I mean center to center spacing..
I'm building a 2U width DOTCOM audio mixer module
that could have 2 rows of 4 or 5 jacks side by side horizontaly
at the bottom...

JP


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Thu May 16 16:27:57 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 16:27:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <79be14a3b59a0b531e3fe53332f25274@oricom.ca>
References: <79be14a3b59a0b531e3fe53332f25274@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiV+GEVgM-SNGeetwcUryYtr=d6=huoS1Xi3obEdhvNQA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi JP,
depends on the type of jack. If it's something likely to be connected
to a longer cable, like a VCA output, it might have a bigger, thicker
ruggerized plug. If it's something more local, such as oscillator
input to a filter or VCA input, then it's likely to have a smaller
(thinner) plug because it's on a short cable.

Cheers,
D.

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers
<jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
> I know this could be a silly question but
> I was wondering if there was any 'standard' on
> minimum spacing to respect between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules ??
> I mean center to center spacing..
> I'm building a 2U width DOTCOM audio mixer module
> that could have 2 rows of 4 or 5 jacks side by side horizontaly
> at the bottom...
>
> JP
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Thu May 16 16:41:34 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 07:41:34 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
Message-ID: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>

Hi folks,

I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.

As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am searching for a good supply source of tempco's.

What are some of you using for vendors?

Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.

I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers. 

If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.

Regards,

Terry

Sent from my iPad

From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Thu May 16 16:44:27 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 07:44:27 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Tempco suppliers
In-Reply-To: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
References: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7D9A23F5-C7A9-4E21-8A68-94C192B4AE50@earthlink.net>



Sent from my iPad

On May 16, 2013, at 7:41 AM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Hi folks,
> 
> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
> 
> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am searching for a good supply source of tempco's.
> 
> What are some of you using for vendors?
> 
> Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.
> 
> I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers. 
> 
> If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Terry
> 
> Sent from my iPad


From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Thu May 16 16:46:35 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 10:46:35 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiV+GEVgM-SNGeetwcUryYtr=d6=huoS1Xi3obEdhvNQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <79be14a3b59a0b531e3fe53332f25274@oricom.ca>
	<CA+9GZUiV+GEVgM-SNGeetwcUryYtr=d6=huoS1Xi3obEdhvNQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <adb9154036bdd5cbcac27199fc23dc1d@oricom.ca>

Thanks,
But I was asking for center to center hole spacings 'standard'
on the front panel when using this type of switchcraft jack:
http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Switchcraft/112AX/?qs=iwvYsH9bSFbeNolTVXhbQQ==

JP

Le 2013-05-16 10:27, cheater00 . a ?crit?:
> Hi JP,
> depends on the type of jack. If it's something likely to be connected
> to a longer cable, like a VCA output, it might have a bigger, thicker
> ruggerized plug. If it's something more local, such as oscillator
> input to a filter or VCA input, then it's likely to have a smaller
> (thinner) plug because it's on a short cable.
>
> Cheers,
> D.
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers
> <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
>> I know this could be a silly question but
>> I was wondering if there was any 'standard' on
>> minimum spacing to respect between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules ??
>> I mean center to center spacing..
>> I'm building a 2U width DOTCOM audio mixer module
>> that could have 2 rows of 4 or 5 jacks side by side horizontaly
>> at the bottom...
>>
>> JP
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Thu May 16 16:47:57 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 16:47:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
In-Reply-To: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
References: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgpGu1xNQC1uM3jS0bN0iZZVeBZ+4L2fkOgTpQ8OopEiw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Terry,
if you want to do SMT, and are likely producing in China, consider
what your factory can actually source.

Cheers,
D.

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
>
> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am searching for a good supply source of tempco's.
>
> What are some of you using for vendors?
>
> Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.
>
> I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers.
>
> If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> Sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Thu May 16 16:49:50 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 10:49:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
In-Reply-To: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
References: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9636660431e9128ecafb2501a659bd70@oricom.ca>

http://www.precisionresistor.com/


Le 2013-05-16 10:41, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
> Hi folks,
>
> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
>
> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am searching
> for a good supply source of tempco's.
>
> What are some of you using for vendors?
>
> Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.
>
> I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers.
>
> If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> Sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Thu May 16 19:42:10 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 10:42:10 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
In-Reply-To: <9636660431e9128ecafb2501a659bd70@oricom.ca>
References: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
	<9636660431e9128ecafb2501a659bd70@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <9B0B2D66-56FA-41E9-A335-0F32BF853E92@earthlink.net>

Hi J.Pierre,

Thanks,

Precision Resistor looks pretty good.

1K 1% @ 3500ppm should be okay.

I was using Q81 devices 1k 1% @ 3300ppm, I wonder what the inpact of a 3500 vs. 3300ppm ail be in calibration and Initial Freq. settings on VCO/VCF.

best regards,

Terry Shultz
thx1138 at earthlink.net



On May 16, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:

> http://www.precisionresistor.com/
> 
> 
> Le 2013-05-16 10:41, Terry Shultz a ?crit :
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
>> 
>> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am searching
>> for a good supply source of tempco's.
>> 
>> What are some of you using for vendors?
>> 
>> Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.
>> 
>> I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers.
>> 
>> If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Terry
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Thu May 16 19:49:39 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 13:49:39 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
In-Reply-To: <9B0B2D66-56FA-41E9-A335-0F32BF853E92@earthlink.net>
References: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
	<9636660431e9128ecafb2501a659bd70@oricom.ca>
	<9B0B2D66-56FA-41E9-A335-0F32BF853E92@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <f1e8a5c8f905e69421d04db4ef8e34a6@oricom.ca>

> I was using Q81 devices 1k 1% @ 3300ppm, I wonder what the inpact of
> a 3500 vs. 3300ppm ail be in calibration and Initial Freq. settings 
> on
> VCO/VCF.

I use this specific type of tempco
in my 12 modified MOTM-300 Ultra VCO's
with pretty good results !

JP


Le 2013-05-16 13:42, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
> Hi J.Pierre,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Precision Resistor looks pretty good.
>
> 1K 1% @ 3500ppm should be okay.
>
> I was using Q81 devices 1k 1% @ 3300ppm, I wonder what the inpact of
> a 3500 vs. 3300ppm ail be in calibration and Initial Freq. settings 
> on
> VCO/VCF.
>
> best regards,
>
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>
>
>
> On May 16, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers 
> <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
>
>> http://www.precisionresistor.com/
>>
>>
>> Le 2013-05-16 10:41, Terry Shultz a ?crit :
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
>>>
>>> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am 
>>> searching
>>> for a good supply source of tempco's.
>>>
>>> What are some of you using for vendors?
>>>
>>> Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.
>>>
>>> I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers.
>>>
>>> If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From john at cronan.cc  Thu May 16 19:57:58 2013
From: john at cronan.cc (John Cronan)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 12:57:58 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
In-Reply-To: <9B0B2D66-56FA-41E9-A335-0F32BF853E92@earthlink.net>
References: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
	<9636660431e9128ecafb2501a659bd70@oricom.ca>
	<9B0B2D66-56FA-41E9-A335-0F32BF853E92@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAE1cZR6UXjetqB_zzcZeSA3F3jXXr6Baw3YQxT02ZpuaCLUu-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Terry,

Have you considered eliminating the tempco using a chip thermostat, or
alternatively, active compensation with measurements of the die
temperature? You need a larger array, but I wonder if 3-4 transistor
arrays (as opposed to duals) are at this point better future proofing
than precision spec resistors, even in surface mount. I'm thinking of
the THAT arrays, I guess.

There's some good info on these techniques that can be found online
with a bit of searching. I can dig some of that up from old bookmarks
if you're interested. I don't have experience with it myself, but it's
something I've wanted to try for a while now.

John Cronan



On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi J.Pierre,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Precision Resistor looks pretty good.
>
> 1K 1% @ 3500ppm should be okay.
>
> I was using Q81 devices 1k 1% @ 3300ppm, I wonder what the inpact of a 3500 vs. 3300ppm ail be in calibration and Initial Freq. settings on VCO/VCF.
>
> best regards,
>
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>
>
>
> On May 16, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
>
>> http://www.precisionresistor.com/
>>
>>
>> Le 2013-05-16 10:41, Terry Shultz a ?crit :
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
>>>
>>> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am searching
>>> for a good supply source of tempco's.
>>>
>>> What are some of you using for vendors?
>>>
>>> Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.
>>>
>>> I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers.
>>>
>>> If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dlmanley at sonic.net  Thu May 16 20:04:53 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 11:04:53 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
Message-ID: <tuxvvv2826fans5r8e62h7v7.1368727271109@email.android.com>

Also look on:

 http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/sourcing/

-Dave

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
 Sent: Thu, May 16, 2013 10:49 AM
 To: Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 CC: 
 Subject: Re: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers

>> I was using Q81 devices 1k 1% @ 3300ppm, I wonder what the inpact of
>> a 3500 vs. 3300ppm ail be in calibration and Initial Freq. settings 
>> on
>> VCO/VCF.
>
>I use this specific type of tempco
>in my 12 modified MOTM-300 Ultra VCO's
>with pretty good results !
>
>JP
>
>
>Le 2013-05-16 13:42, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
>> Hi J.Pierre,
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Precision Resistor looks pretty good.
>>
>> 1K 1% @ 3500ppm should be okay.
>>
>> I was using Q81 devices 1k 1% @ 3300ppm, I wonder what the inpact of
>> a 3500 vs. 3300ppm ail be in calibration and Initial Freq. settings 
>> on
>> VCO/VCF.
>>
>> best regards,
>>
>> Terry Shultz
>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers 
>> <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.precisionresistor.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 2013-05-16 10:41, Terry Shultz a ?crit :
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
>>>>
>>>> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am 
>>>> searching
>>>> for a good supply source of tempco's.
>>>>
>>>> What are some of you using for vendors?
>>>>
>>>> Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.
>>>>
>>>> I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers.
>>>>
>>>> If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Terry
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From Stromeko at nexgo.de  Thu May 16 20:10:42 2013
From: Stromeko at nexgo.de (ASSI)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 20:10:42 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
In-Reply-To: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
References: <D64D9984-5C54-4C6E-BEEF-03E13F715E57@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1450977.nxpWybARdr@rainer.invalid>

On Thursday 16 May 2013, 07:41:34, Terry Shultz wrote:
> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
> 
> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am searching for
> a good supply source of tempco's.


Panasonic have a series of 0805 down to 0403 3300ppm tempco resistors that 
many distributors carry (usually not all values, though), but only speced 
for 5% accuracy IIRC.  They should also have a variant with a higher tempco 
(3900ppm I think) so that you can adjust the TC down with a series resistor.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada



From dlmanley at sonic.net  Thu May 16 20:11:26 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 11:11:26 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
Message-ID: <eaftniem0i8e8964ad0pb5dw.1368727862839@email.android.com>

I should have added to look at the panasonic part which is 3300 ppn

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net>
 Sent: Thu, May 16, 2013 11:04 AM
 To: Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>; Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 CC: 
 Subject: Re: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers

>Also look on:
>
> http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/sourcing/
>
>-Dave
>
>-------- Original Message --------
> From: Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
> Sent: Thu, May 16, 2013 10:49 AM
> To: Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> CC: 
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Tempo suppliers
>
>>> I was using Q81 devices 1k 1% @ 3300ppm, I wonder what the inpact of
>>> a 3500 vs. 3300ppm ail be in calibration and Initial Freq. settings 
>>> on
>>> VCO/VCF.
>>
>>I use this specific type of tempco
>>in my 12 modified MOTM-300 Ultra VCO's
>>with pretty good results !
>>
>>JP
>>
>>
>>Le 2013-05-16 13:42, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
>>> Hi J.Pierre,
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Precision Resistor looks pretty good.
>>>
>>> 1K 1% @ 3500ppm should be okay.
>>>
>>> I was using Q81 devices 1k 1% @ 3300ppm, I wonder what the inpact of
>>> a 3500 vs. 3300ppm ail be in calibration and Initial Freq. settings 
>>> on
>>> VCO/VCF.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>>
>>> Terry Shultz
>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 16, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers 
>>> <jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.precisionresistor.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 2013-05-16 10:41, Terry Shultz a ?crit :
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am almost out of 1k temco's from tellabs.
>>>>>
>>>>> As my new designs will be surface mount in some cases, I am 
>>>>> searching
>>>>> for a good supply source of tempco's.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are some of you using for vendors?
>>>>>
>>>>> Possible group buy or resale of parts could be possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am looking at Bourne pot's and trimmers.
>>>>>
>>>>> If others are interested let me know so I can order extra.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Terry
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Synth-diy mailing list
>>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 17 12:20:45 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 12:20:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  Soldering and rework station recommendations?
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUjqdE5_z8HGGtCkZ7zqHfJ9qwfSmfpwTiJ2KvQK_2RK+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,
I'm looking for a "real" soldering station that'll be good for at
least the next 5 years or so of part-time use. The usage is - you
guessed it - synth and audio circuits :) You can't escape SMD
nowadays, either, and hot air is nice if it doesn't cost a lot extra.
I looked around and found the Aoyue 2703a+ to be a good choice based
on reviews and paper specs. Buuut... all that can't replace the
experience which you guys have.

For one thing, a longer time ago I heard there's some specific stuff
to watch out for with desoldering pistols (sponge filters vs something
else used to filter out the solder? don't remember exactly). What
about the pump? I also heard every now and then you have to take the
torch to the suction cord, because the solder sticks and clogs it.
Does it end up breaking the cord? Do I need to buy spares? Are some
cords better with that or do all of them clog up at about the same
rate? Does the quality of the pump have anything to do with this?

Here's a link to a site detailing what one gets:
http://www.aoyue.de/product_info.php/language/EN/info/p6319_AOYUE-2703A--RepairingStation-bleifreie-Hei-luftloetstation-Entloeten.html

I'm looking to spend up to around 300 euro, plus maybe additional bits
and pieces. Maybe an SMD tweezer iron once I need to rework some SMD.

One nice review compares the Aoyue to X-Tronic. Apparently the latter
is the same price range but uses sub-standard materials that easily
catch on fire..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-DGvJ2y6E
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9CDDTsjyuU

Note what he's doing with the Aoyue and it still doesn't catch fire,
it puts a lot of faith in the product.

I heard Aoyue started out by ripping off Hakko. Supposedly the copies
were pretty good quality and they made a business out of the fact
Hakko was just overpriced (and still is). The 2703a+ seems to be a
completely new design; I think it looks pretty good, but again, a call
out to you guys.

What are the downsides of this soldering iron? What do you guys think
could be alternatives in this price range (maybe a bit more?)

Note I'm not looking for a heavy-duty station where I'll be soldering
16 hours a day. I know there are Weller's, Hakkos and Pace's for that,
but those are very much out of my price range!


What tips do you guys usually get and how many? Do you use separate
tips for leaded and unleaded solder? Do you buy any other accessories?

Cheers,
D.


From jays at aracnet.com  Fri May 17 18:35:01 2013
From: jays at aracnet.com (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 09:35:01 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUjqdE5_z8HGGtCkZ7zqHfJ9qwfSmfpwTiJ2KvQK_2RK+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUjqdE5_z8HGGtCkZ7zqHfJ9qwfSmfpwTiJ2KvQK_2RK+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101ce531c$7abadf60$70309e20$@com>

Everyone,

I'm looking for a blend circuit that at center position there is no output,
turn it left from center and you get just input A then turn it right from
center you get just input B. Using VCAs I can do this but that would make
what I'm doing to big. I need to keep it simple/minimal using op-amps, pots
and diodes.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Jay S.




From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Fri May 17 18:49:13 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 09:49:13 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?
In-Reply-To: <001101ce531c$7abadf60$70309e20$@com>
References: <CA+9GZUjqdE5_z8HGGtCkZ7zqHfJ9qwfSmfpwTiJ2KvQK_2RK+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<001101ce531c$7abadf60$70309e20$@com>
Message-ID: <E9B0E26652194E58A2491400478B4F49@galvanox01>

> Everyone,
> 
> I'm looking for a blend circuit that at center position there 
> is no output, turn it left from center and you get just input 
> A then turn it right from center you get just input B. Using 
> VCAs I can do this but that would make what I'm doing to big. 
> I need to keep it simple/minimal using op-amps, pots and diodes.
> 
> Any suggestions?

Set up a potentiometer between the +15V and -15V rails, and send the wiper
voltage to a buffer, and an inverter.  Use the outputs of the buffer and
inverter to control two 
linearized 2164 VCA circuits (see here:
http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4336650/Op-amp-linearizes-attenuator-contro
l-response).  Feed A into one VCA and B into the other.  This circuit will
do what you want.

In this circuit, the VCAs only operate with a positive CV.  A negative CV
renders them inactive.  Hence, only one VCA will be active no matter what
the pot setting.  At fully CCW, A will be amplified at unity gain, at fully
CW, B will be amplified at unity gain, and in the centre, both will be off.

Parts count: 1 pot, 1 V2164 chip (Small Bear Electronics), six opamps,
various resistors and caps.



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 17 18:52:34 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 18:52:34 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?
In-Reply-To: <E9B0E26652194E58A2491400478B4F49@galvanox01>
References: <CA+9GZUjqdE5_z8HGGtCkZ7zqHfJ9qwfSmfpwTiJ2KvQK_2RK+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<001101ce531c$7abadf60$70309e20$@com>
	<E9B0E26652194E58A2491400478B4F49@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUh9hS3m-_TP_XNjDgaNaLL9C9mV6ej_kdM_b1KLV+MHcw@mail.gmail.com>

PNP and NPN resistor. Biasing them changes the gain. No VCA.

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 6:49 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> Everyone,
>>
>> I'm looking for a blend circuit that at center position there
>> is no output, turn it left from center and you get just input
>> A then turn it right from center you get just input B. Using
>> VCAs I can do this but that would make what I'm doing to big.
>> I need to keep it simple/minimal using op-amps, pots and diodes.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>
> Set up a potentiometer between the +15V and -15V rails, and send the wiper
> voltage to a buffer, and an inverter.  Use the outputs of the buffer and
> inverter to control two
> linearized 2164 VCA circuits (see here:
> http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4336650/Op-amp-linearizes-attenuator-contro
> l-response).  Feed A into one VCA and B into the other.  This circuit will
> do what you want.
>
> In this circuit, the VCAs only operate with a positive CV.  A negative CV
> renders them inactive.  Hence, only one VCA will be active no matter what
> the pot setting.  At fully CCW, A will be amplified at unity gain, at fully
> CW, B will be amplified at unity gain, and in the centre, both will be off.
>
> Parts count: 1 pot, 1 V2164 chip (Small Bear Electronics), six opamps,
> various resistors and caps.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Fri May 17 18:56:10 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 09:56:10 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUh9hS3m-_TP_XNjDgaNaLL9C9mV6ej_kdM_b1KLV+MHcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUjqdE5_z8HGGtCkZ7zqHfJ9qwfSmfpwTiJ2KvQK_2RK+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<001101ce531c$7abadf60$70309e20$@com>
	<E9B0E26652194E58A2491400478B4F49@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUh9hS3m-_TP_XNjDgaNaLL9C9mV6ej_kdM_b1KLV+MHcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC5154BD68044111BCE58B8E57A4D12D@galvanox01>

> PNP and NPN resistor. Biasing them changes the gain. No VCA.

He meant 'transistor'.

That's "old-school" but it'll work too.  It takes a bit more "design"
however.




From dlmanley at sonic.net  Fri May 17 18:56:17 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 09:56:17 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?
Message-ID: <986y9cmikx3lcjgr9m4tl5p2.1368809777590@email.android.com>

Center tapped pot. Ground center tap. Signals go in opposite ends. Wiper is output. Put a quad opamp to buffer things as required.

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Jay Schwichtenberg <jays at aracnet.com>
 Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 09:35 AM
 To: 'synth-diy' <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
 CC: 
 Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?

>Everyone,
>
>I'm looking for a blend circuit that at center position there is no output,
>turn it left from center and you get just input A then turn it right from
>center you get just input B. Using VCAs I can do this but that would make
>what I'm doing to big. I need to keep it simple/minimal using op-amps, pots
>and diodes.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Thanks
>Jay S.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 17 19:00:01 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 19:00:01 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?
In-Reply-To: <EC5154BD68044111BCE58B8E57A4D12D@galvanox01>
References: <CA+9GZUjqdE5_z8HGGtCkZ7zqHfJ9qwfSmfpwTiJ2KvQK_2RK+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<001101ce531c$7abadf60$70309e20$@com>
	<E9B0E26652194E58A2491400478B4F49@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUh9hS3m-_TP_XNjDgaNaLL9C9mV6ej_kdM_b1KLV+MHcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EC5154BD68044111BCE58B8E57A4D12D@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUi-aMPJ-CD28Yk0WBJtiq7NhH8xmQe8yBAkzw8=PpF+mw@mail.gmail.com>

VC resistor. ;)

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 6:56 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> PNP and NPN resistor. Biasing them changes the gain. No VCA.
>
> He meant 'transistor'.
>
> That's "old-school" but it'll work too.  It takes a bit more "design"
> however.
>
>


From kingravine at comcast.net  Fri May 17 19:02:41 2013
From: kingravine at comcast.net (Dave Magnuson)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 13:02:41 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?
In-Reply-To: <001101ce531c$7abadf60$70309e20$@com>
References: <CA+9GZUjqdE5_z8HGGtCkZ7zqHfJ9qwfSmfpwTiJ2KvQK_2RK+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<001101ce531c$7abadf60$70309e20$@com>
Message-ID: <001501ce5320$57bc7330$07355990$@comcast.net>

Try a center tapped pot

Output from wiper.   Sig A to one side, Sig B to other side.  Center tap to
ground

Dave Magnuson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl [mailto:synth-diy-
> bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Jay Schwichtenberg
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 12:35 PM
> To: 'synth-diy'
> Subject: [sdiy] Looking for blend circuit?
> 
> Everyone,
> 
> I'm looking for a blend circuit that at center position there is no
output, turn it
> left from center and you get just input A then turn it right from center
you get
> just input B. Using VCAs I can do this but that would make what I'm doing
to
> big. I need to keep it simple/minimal using op-amps, pots and diodes.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks
> Jay S.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Fri May 17 19:44:07 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 10:44:07 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
Message-ID: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>

Hi Guys,

I have been looking over Alp's, Bournes, Alpha pots, Trimmers, and resistor networks and perhaps some other misc. parts for my first build of VCA/VCF/UAF modules / Sub-modules.

What are the availability(lead times), feel of pot rotation and quality in general these days?

I have been using Bournes for many years , but my inventory is 30+ years old and almost gone now with my current module build. Lead times are pretty long in some of the values.

100K vs. 50K ?

I had been using Alco knurled Aluminum knobs, but I think Alco must be gone now.

My impression is Feel and quality are important, but are a cost factor in some cases. 

Just wondered what many of you folks prefer and I am sure to hear some good feedback from you all.

1/4" Jack Panel , I use Switchcraft, but others may have an opinion here as well.

Seeing as how I am redesigning my Panels and PCB, this is a good time to get some feedback.

Best always,


Terry Shultz
thx1138 at earthlink.net





From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 17 19:45:24 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 19:45:24 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  Banana piano
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhWp5w33K=-2Tf+q8aKCCyf8anxH5Qv6TQvToF6OP8UnQ@mail.gmail.com>

You've seen it here first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfjWdoW7pt4


From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Fri May 17 20:02:15 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 14:02:15 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>
References: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <f636738f9e959870f9bdb0e7f9adb1a1@oricom.ca>

Terry,

I heard lots of DIY builders use Spectrol/Vishay 100k lin cermet pots
for precision purpose like VCO tuning, VCF, ect..
and use Alpha pots for CV levels, audio signals and other
non-critical uses..
100k Alpha pots seemed to show often in bills of materials.
Switchcraft 1/4" jacks 11x series like 112BX are a good choice for
small space but sturdy uses on front panel. MOTM used them a lot.
For switches I use these toggle swiches:
Mouser 611-7101-064 (C&K 7101MDZQE)

JP

Le 2013-05-17 13:44, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I have been looking over Alp's, Bournes, Alpha pots, Trimmers, and
> resistor networks and perhaps some other misc. parts for my first
> build of VCA/VCF/UAF modules / Sub-modules.
>
> What are the availability(lead times), feel of pot rotation and
> quality in general these days?
>
> I have been using Bournes for many years , but my inventory is 30+
> years old and almost gone now with my current module build. Lead 
> times
> are pretty long in some of the values.
>
> 100K vs. 50K ?
>
> I had been using Alco knurled Aluminum knobs, but I think Alco must 
> be gone now.
>
> My impression is Feel and quality are important, but are a cost
> factor in some cases.
>
> Just wondered what many of you folks prefer and I am sure to hear
> some good feedback from you all.
>
> 1/4" Jack Panel , I use Switchcraft, but others may have an opinion
> here as well.
>
> Seeing as how I am redesigning my Panels and PCB, this is a good time
> to get some feedback.
>
> Best always,
>
>
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Fri May 17 20:06:06 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 14:06:06 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>
References: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <d6962d237348ebb82abb62fa011fbdfa@oricom.ca>

And go see my DOTCOM modules building details:

http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/

Lots of details on front panels, schematics, PCB's,
Bill of materials, etc..

Hope they'll help you in your decisions.
JP

Le 2013-05-17 13:44, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I have been looking over Alp's, Bournes, Alpha pots, Trimmers, and
> resistor networks and perhaps some other misc. parts for my first
> build of VCA/VCF/UAF modules / Sub-modules.
>
> What are the availability(lead times), feel of pot rotation and
> quality in general these days?
>
> I have been using Bournes for many years , but my inventory is 30+
> years old and almost gone now with my current module build. Lead 
> times
> are pretty long in some of the values.
>
> 100K vs. 50K ?
>
> I had been using Alco knurled Aluminum knobs, but I think Alco must 
> be gone now.
>
> My impression is Feel and quality are important, but are a cost
> factor in some cases.
>
> Just wondered what many of you folks prefer and I am sure to hear
> some good feedback from you all.
>
> 1/4" Jack Panel , I use Switchcraft, but others may have an opinion
> here as well.
>
> Seeing as how I am redesigning my Panels and PCB, this is a good time
> to get some feedback.
>
> Best always,
>
>
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 17 20:18:03 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 20:18:03 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  Sparkfun boards for synth diy - window comparator,
 sample playback, text to speech
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUjUhuWdse1KQVPtbB9sh7xd2U1UOMbwKuUdzj-b8y6AfA@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys,
here's a few boards I've noticed on sparkfun which might be interesting:

1. Window comparator - 0-5V - $10 - https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10101
2. Text-to-speech module Emic 2 from Propeller - $60 -
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11711
3. SD Card playback device - $20 -
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11125 (cannot shift the pitch, but
maybe it's good enough for some things such as playing back a loop,
speech sample, or sequence that doesn't need pitch shifting? a LOT of
instruments in electronic recordings only ever play one note :-) and
if one note costs only $20... that's pretty good, right?

Cheers,
D.


From dlmanley at sonic.net  Fri May 17 21:14:24 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 12:14:24 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
Message-ID: <yeyvixakntaqewcrnk7ijgd7.1368818064155@email.android.com>

Perhaps my recall is bad but I thought the price had gone through the ceiling on those Spectrol/ Vishay pots and people were switching to TT/BI.

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
 Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 11:02 AM
 To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 CC: 
 Subject: Re: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks

>Terry,
>
>I heard lots of DIY builders use Spectrol/Vishay 100k lin cermet pots
>for precision purpose like VCO tuning, VCF, ect..
>and use Alpha pots for CV levels, audio signals and other
>non-critical uses..
>100k Alpha pots seemed to show often in bills of materials.
>Switchcraft 1/4" jacks 11x series like 112BX are a good choice for
>small space but sturdy uses on front panel. MOTM used them a lot.
>For switches I use these toggle swiches:
>Mouser 611-7101-064 (C&K 7101MDZQE)
>
>JP
>
>Le 2013-05-17 13:44, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> I have been looking over Alp's, Bournes, Alpha pots, Trimmers, and
>> resistor networks and perhaps some other misc. parts for my first
>> build of VCA/VCF/UAF modules / Sub-modules.
>>
>> What are the availability(lead times), feel of pot rotation and
>> quality in general these days?
>>
>> I have been using Bournes for many years , but my inventory is 30+
>> years old and almost gone now with my current module build. Lead 
>> times
>> are pretty long in some of the values.
>>
>> 100K vs. 50K ?
>>
>> I had been using Alco knurled Aluminum knobs, but I think Alco must 
>> be gone now.
>>
>> My impression is Feel and quality are important, but are a cost
>> factor in some cases.
>>
>> Just wondered what many of you folks prefer and I am sure to hear
>> some good feedback from you all.
>>
>> 1/4" Jack Panel , I use Switchcraft, but others may have an opinion
>> here as well.
>>
>> Seeing as how I am redesigning my Panels and PCB, this is a good time
>> to get some feedback.
>>
>> Best always,
>>
>>
>> Terry Shultz
>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Fri May 17 21:20:30 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 15:20:30 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <yeyvixakntaqewcrnk7ijgd7.1368818064155@email.android.com>
References: <yeyvixakntaqewcrnk7ijgd7.1368818064155@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <4d622f141721110c2c73ed6292a234ed@oricom.ca>

TT/BI potentiometers... who supply them ? cost ?

I'm interested..

JP

Le 2013-05-17 15:14, Dave Manley a ?crit?:
> Perhaps my recall is bad but I thought the price had gone through the
> ceiling on those Spectrol/ Vishay pots and people were switching to
> TT/BI.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>  From: Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
>  Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 11:02 AM
>  To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>  CC:
>  Subject: Re: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
>
>>Terry,
>>
>>I heard lots of DIY builders use Spectrol/Vishay 100k lin cermet pots
>>for precision purpose like VCO tuning, VCF, ect..
>>and use Alpha pots for CV levels, audio signals and other
>>non-critical uses..
>>100k Alpha pots seemed to show often in bills of materials.
>>Switchcraft 1/4" jacks 11x series like 112BX are a good choice for
>>small space but sturdy uses on front panel. MOTM used them a lot.
>>For switches I use these toggle swiches:
>>Mouser 611-7101-064 (C&K 7101MDZQE)
>>
>>JP
>>
>>Le 2013-05-17 13:44, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
>>> Hi Guys,
>>>
>>> I have been looking over Alp's, Bournes, Alpha pots, Trimmers, and
>>> resistor networks and perhaps some other misc. parts for my first
>>> build of VCA/VCF/UAF modules / Sub-modules.
>>>
>>> What are the availability(lead times), feel of pot rotation and
>>> quality in general these days?
>>>
>>> I have been using Bournes for many years , but my inventory is 30+
>>> years old and almost gone now with my current module build. Lead
>>> times
>>> are pretty long in some of the values.
>>>
>>> 100K vs. 50K ?
>>>
>>> I had been using Alco knurled Aluminum knobs, but I think Alco must
>>> be gone now.
>>>
>>> My impression is Feel and quality are important, but are a cost
>>> factor in some cases.
>>>
>>> Just wondered what many of you folks prefer and I am sure to hear
>>> some good feedback from you all.
>>>
>>> 1/4" Jack Panel , I use Switchcraft, but others may have an opinion
>>> here as well.
>>>
>>> Seeing as how I am redesigning my Panels and PCB, this is a good 
>>> time
>>> to get some feedback.
>>>
>>> Best always,
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry Shultz
>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Synth-diy mailing list
>>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>



From jim at antsclimbtree.com  Fri May 17 21:31:06 2013
From: jim at antsclimbtree.com (Jim Coursey)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 12:31:06 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <4d622f141721110c2c73ed6292a234ed@oricom.ca>
References: <yeyvixakntaqewcrnk7ijgd7.1368818064155@email.android.com>
	<4d622f141721110c2c73ed6292a234ed@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <9ae06a7fefdecbc15d11a8cc822e7e7b@antsclimbtree.com>

Digi-Key for one (100k starting at $4/each).  Or go straight through 
TTI in bulk (same pot is closer to $2).  There's more info here:

http://modularsynthesis.com/modules/parts/parts.htm

There isn't a very wide selection of values available, so that's a real 
downside to the Bi Tech pots.

-Jim


On 5/17/2013 12:20 PM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:
> TT/BI potentiometers... who supply them ? cost ?
>
> I'm interested..
>
> JP
>
> Le 2013-05-17 15:14, Dave Manley a ?crit?:
>> Perhaps my recall is bad but I thought the price had gone through 
>> the
>> ceiling on those Spectrol/ Vishay pots and people were switching to
>> TT/BI.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>>  From: Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
>>  Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 11:02 AM
>>  To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>  CC:
>>  Subject: Re: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
>>
>>>Terry,
>>>
>>>I heard lots of DIY builders use Spectrol/Vishay 100k lin cermet 
>>> pots
>>>for precision purpose like VCO tuning, VCF, ect..
>>>and use Alpha pots for CV levels, audio signals and other
>>>non-critical uses..
>>>100k Alpha pots seemed to show often in bills of materials.
>>>Switchcraft 1/4" jacks 11x series like 112BX are a good choice for
>>>small space but sturdy uses on front panel. MOTM used them a lot.
>>>For switches I use these toggle swiches:
>>>Mouser 611-7101-064 (C&K 7101MDZQE)
>>>
>>>JP
>>>
>>>Le 2013-05-17 13:44, Terry Shultz a ?crit?:
>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>
>>>> I have been looking over Alp's, Bournes, Alpha pots, Trimmers, and
>>>> resistor networks and perhaps some other misc. parts for my first
>>>> build of VCA/VCF/UAF modules / Sub-modules.
>>>>
>>>> What are the availability(lead times), feel of pot rotation and
>>>> quality in general these days?
>>>>
>>>> I have been using Bournes for many years , but my inventory is 30+
>>>> years old and almost gone now with my current module build. Lead
>>>> times
>>>> are pretty long in some of the values.
>>>>
>>>> 100K vs. 50K ?
>>>>
>>>> I had been using Alco knurled Aluminum knobs, but I think Alco 
>>>> must
>>>> be gone now.
>>>>
>>>> My impression is Feel and quality are important, but are a cost
>>>> factor in some cases.
>>>>
>>>> Just wondered what many of you folks prefer and I am sure to hear
>>>> some good feedback from you all.
>>>>
>>>> 1/4" Jack Panel , I use Switchcraft, but others may have an 
>>>> opinion
>>>> here as well.
>>>>
>>>> Seeing as how I am redesigning my Panels and PCB, this is a good 
>>>> time
>>>> to get some feedback.
>>>>
>>>> Best always,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terry Shultz
>>>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Synth-diy mailing list
>>>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Fri May 17 22:11:50 2013
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 15:11:50 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <9ae06a7fefdecbc15d11a8cc822e7e7b@antsclimbtree.com>
References: <yeyvixakntaqewcrnk7ijgd7.1368818064155@email.android.com>
	<4d622f141721110c2c73ed6292a234ed@oricom.ca>
	<9ae06a7fefdecbc15d11a8cc822e7e7b@antsclimbtree.com>
Message-ID: <51968F06.5050901@oldcrows.net>

   I use TT/BI these days.  The only real caveat is for things like 1meg 
log pots, 1/8" shaft pots, etc. you will end up having to place an 
"off-catalog" order through a vendor like Digikey, minimum order of 240 
pieces.  And it will take 12 weeks.

   Regards,

Crow
/**/

On 5/17/2013 2:31 PM, Jim Coursey wrote:
> Digi-Key for one (100k starting at $4/each).  Or go straight through 
> TTI in bulk (same pot is closer to $2).  There's more info here:
>
> http://modularsynthesis.com/modules/parts/parts.htm
>
> There isn't a very wide selection of values available, so that's a 
> real downside to the Bi Tech pots.
>
> -Jim
> .nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>



From rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk  Fri May 17 22:36:08 2013
From: rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk (Rob Keeble)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 21:36:08 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>
References: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CBA94840-8BBD-4AC3-88C1-C9C24958EFDB@amsynths.co.uk>

Hi terry,
Emu style Ali knobs can be bought in bulk from taiwan and they are reasonable cost at 500 MOQ. Plastic knobs from rean are good, but the collapse of analog mixer market is taking its toll on cool designs.

Bourns are still good value pots considering they last for decades but Spectrol are expensive and fall apart a bit too much, Alpha are cheap and reliable. People are moving to TT and they are very good, 

Best Regards
Rob Keeble
AMSynths
www.amsynths.co.uk

On 17 May 2013, at 18:44, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
> 
> I have been looking over Alp's, Bournes, Alpha pots, Trimmers, and resistor networks and perhaps some other misc. parts for my first build of VCA/VCF/UAF modules / Sub-modules.
> 
> What are the availability(lead times), feel of pot rotation and quality in general these days?
> 
> I have been using Bournes for many years , but my inventory is 30+ years old and almost gone now with my current module build. Lead times are pretty long in some of the values.
> 
> 100K vs. 50K ?
> 
> I had been using Alco knurled Aluminum knobs, but I think Alco must be gone now.
> 
> My impression is Feel and quality are important, but are a cost factor in some cases. 
> 
> Just wondered what many of you folks prefer and I am sure to hear some good feedback from you all.
> 
> 1/4" Jack Panel , I use Switchcraft, but others may have an opinion here as well.
> 
> Seeing as how I am redesigning my Panels and PCB, this is a good time to get some feedback.
> 
> Best always,
> 
> 
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From davebr at earthlink.net  Sat May 18 00:29:10 2013
From: davebr at earthlink.net (Dave Brown)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 15:29:10 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <51968F06.5050901@oldcrows.net>
References: <yeyvixakntaqewcrnk7ijgd7.1368818064155@email.android.com>	<4d622f141721110c2c73ed6292a234ed@oricom.ca>	<9ae06a7fefdecbc15d11a8cc822e7e7b@antsclimbtree.com>
	<51968F06.5050901@oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <002501ce534d$f4835d00$dd8a1700$@earthlink.net>

I buy my odd value TT/BI from Krisp1 in the UK.  They have 1M and some duals
that I have bought.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of The Old Crow
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 1:12 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks

   I use TT/BI these days.  The only real caveat is for things like 1meg log
pots, 1/8" shaft pots, etc. you will end up having to place an "off-catalog"
order through a vendor like Digikey, minimum order of 240 pieces.  And it
will take 12 weeks.

   Regards,

Crow
/**/

On 5/17/2013 2:31 PM, Jim Coursey wrote:
> Digi-Key for one (100k starting at $4/each).  Or go straight through 
> TTI in bulk (same pot is closer to $2).  There's more info here:
>
> http://modularsynthesis.com/modules/parts/parts.htm
>
> There isn't a very wide selection of values available, so that's a 
> real downside to the Bi Tech pots.
>
> -Jim
> .nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy




From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Sat May 18 02:43:02 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (thx1138)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 17:43:02 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <CBA94840-8BBD-4AC3-88C1-C9C24958EFDB@amsynths.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CDBC1CA6.D8F6%thx1138@earthlink.net>

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your kind reply.

My Bournes pots on my E-Mu Modular system are still in great working order
since I built it back in 1980/1981 time frame. My Pratt-Reed 4060 series
keyboards are needing some love and attention. Rubber and Los Angeles smog
meet at last. 

Damn things are still pretty much in tune after being in storage since 1985.

My Chamberlin Dual Keyboard is a different story. It basically still works,
but a few tapes are needing some attention as well. I guess I will save that
for a time when I can really work on it. My Lab is really crowded and is
starting to look one of those Hoarding shows on TV,

I still have about 400+ Alco knobs , so I guess I will keep using until I
find a Taiwanese supplier.

I still have a couple of 5 octave Pratt-Reed keyboards in bubble wrap, I am
afraid to see how they are holding up.

Fatar have agreed to sell me OEM 5 octave units but I have to buy 10 at a
time.

BTW who is TT and a web link would be nice.

Thanks to all that have replied.

Best regards,

Terry
thx1138 at earthlink.net



On 5/17/13 1:36 PM, "Rob Keeble" <rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi terry,
> Emu style Ali knobs can be bought in bulk from taiwan and they are reasonable
> cost at 500 MOQ. Plastic knobs from rean are good, but the collapse of analog
> mixer market is taking its toll on cool designs.
> 
> Bourns are still good value pots considering they last for decades but
> Spectrol are expensive and fall apart a bit too much, Alpha are cheap and
> reliable. People are moving to TT and they are very good,
> 
> Best Regards
> Rob Keeble
> AMSynths
> www.amsynths.co.uk
> 
> On 17 May 2013, at 18:44, Terry Shultz <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Guys,
>> 
>> I have been looking over Alp's, Bournes, Alpha pots, Trimmers, and resistor
>> networks and perhaps some other misc. parts for my first build of VCA/VCF/UAF
>> modules / Sub-modules.
>> 
>> What are the availability(lead times), feel of pot rotation and quality in
>> general these days?
>> 
>> I have been using Bournes for many years , but my inventory is 30+ years old
>> and almost gone now with my current module build. Lead times are pretty long
>> in some of the values.
>> 
>> 100K vs. 50K ?
>> 
>> I had been using Alco knurled Aluminum knobs, but I think Alco must be gone
>> now.
>> 
>> My impression is Feel and quality are important, but are a cost factor in
>> some cases. 
>> 
>> Just wondered what many of you folks prefer and I am sure to hear some good
>> feedback from you all.
>> 
>> 1/4" Jack Panel , I use Switchcraft, but others may have an opinion here as
>> well.
>> 
>> Seeing as how I am redesigning my Panels and PCB, this is a good time to get
>> some feedback.
>> 
>> Best always,
>> 
>> 
>> Terry Shultz
>> thx1138 at earthlink.net
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Sat May 18 04:13:36 2013
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 21:13:36 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <CDBC1CA6.D8F6%thx1138@earthlink.net>
References: <CDBC1CA6.D8F6%thx1138@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5196E3D0.8020908@oldcrows.net>

   The main site is http://www.bitechnologies.com/

   Typical datasheet is something like 
http://www.bitechnologies.com/pdfs/p260.pdf

Crow
/**/

On 5/17/2013 7:43 PM, thx1138 wrote:
> BTW who is TT and a web link would be nice.
>
>


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Sat May 18 05:10:23 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 20:10:23 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Potentiometers and suppliers for 1/4" jacks
In-Reply-To: <5196E3D0.8020908@oldcrows.net>
References: <CDBC1CA6.D8F6%thx1138@earthlink.net>
	<5196E3D0.8020908@oldcrows.net>
Message-ID: <7F53BAF1-8042-47E0-9EBB-C0805D56A705@earthlink.net>

Hi crow,

It appears that bitechnologies is just about 7 miles from my house.

I may have a visit to see these folks.

Terry

Sent from my iPad

On May 17, 2013, at 7:13 PM, The Old Crow <oldcrow at oldcrows.net> wrote:

>  The main site is http://www.bitechnologies.com/
> 
>  Typical datasheet is something like http://www.bitechnologies.com/pdfs/p260.pdf
> 
> Crow
> /**/
> 
> On 5/17/2013 7:43 PM, thx1138 wrote:
>> BTW who is TT and a web link would be nice.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From rw at firstpr.com.au  Sat May 18 07:02:34 2013
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 15:02:34 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Design software for JP's modules
In-Reply-To: <d6962d237348ebb82abb62fa011fbdfa@oricom.ca>
References: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>
	<d6962d237348ebb82abb62fa011fbdfa@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <51970B6A.7080105@firstpr.com.au>

Hi Jean-Pierre,

Can you tell me what schematic and PCB layout program you use for your
projects?  I like the clarity of the schematic:

 http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/M103B_UltraVCO/Specifications/M103B_MOTM300_UltraVCO_partial_schematic.pdf

The PCB looks great:


http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/M100_MIDI_Interface/Module_pictures/Assembling_pcb.jpg

 - Robin



On 2013-05-18 4:06 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:

> And go see my DOTCOM modules building details:
> 
> http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/
> 
> Lots of details on front panels, schematics, PCB's,
> Bill of materials, etc..
> 
> Hope they'll help you in your decisions.
> JP



From synth1 at airmail.net  Sat May 18 07:52:27 2013
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 00:52:27 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Design software for JP's modules
In-Reply-To: <51970B6A.7080105@firstpr.com.au>
References: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>	<d6962d237348ebb82abb62fa011fbdfa@oricom.ca>
	<51970B6A.7080105@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <006301ce538b$e0f894b0$a2e9be10$@airmail.net>

Looks like OrCAD schematics and P-CAD pcb.

Paul S.


-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Robin Whittle
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 12:03 AM
To: Synth DIY
Subject: [sdiy] Design software for JP's modules

Hi Jean-Pierre,

Can you tell me what schematic and PCB layout program you use for your
projects?  I like the clarity of the schematic:

 
http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/M103B_UltraVCO/Specifications/M103B
_MOTM300_UltraVCO_partial_schematic.pdf

The PCB looks great:


http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/M100_MIDI_Interface/Module_pictures
/Assembling_pcb.jpg

 - Robin



On 2013-05-18 4:06 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:

> And go see my DOTCOM modules building details:
> 
> http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/
> 
> Lots of details on front panels, schematics, PCB's, Bill of materials, 
> etc..
> 
> Hope they'll help you in your decisions.
> JP

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May 18 10:30:34 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 10:30:34 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  Oscillator sampler with sorting capabilities concept
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUg-1sEW7V7HZ1gokY8MRsDQs0x-jj-J9GTqX7rmTR6LOw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,
I was wondering what you guys thought of this synthesis technique. Has
anyone tried this? Could it sound good?

Here's a chat log between me and a fellow synthesis fan.

have you ever tried running a waveform through a sorting algorithm?
That is, take each cycle and sort that. If you sort the waveform fully
you should get something like a saw. But you could limit the amount of
work the sorting algo can perform before the waveform cycle is
released. If you put this parameter on a knob then you could perhaps
have a somewhat-smooth transition from your current waveform to a saw
waveform.

I think it could even work for analogue synths, you'd just need
somewhat of a buffer


you could have a sampler which works like this: it has a sync input
and a wave input from a VCO. when the vco outputs sync, it starts
sampling the waveform until the next sync. Once that's done, this is
called "a wave". Now for the output. Every time a wave is sampled, it
is placed on a queue (fifo). When a vco sync happens, the output
module takes the next wave from the fifo and starts outputting it. As
long as the wave is being output, syncs can be ignored (or instead, it
could jump to the next waveform at index 0, or to the next waveform at
the same index as it currently is). If there is only one wave left in
the queue, and the device is getting sync pulses over and over, then
it could either start outputting silence, or start outputting the last
wave it had in the queue.


this way it could work even delay-less (but would mangle the output in
a fun way)


Snd of course, while this happens the currently output waveform could
be mangled by: sorting, randomizing, sorting or shaping according to
the current waveform shape in a second sampler, etc.


could be fun when run on FM oscillators which change pitch.


So what "slaving to another sampler" would mean is that, in the master
sampler you have the sorting algorithm, and it moves sample 4 to
position 1. Then the slave sampler doesn't sort its own samples,
instead it just moves sample 4 to position 1, just like the master
sampler. I think this might only work if the wave are "normalized" to
some length, or alternatively if the waves in the slave get resampled
to the length of the master, or alternatively if the waves in the
master get resampled to the length of the slave. Resampling slave to
length of master would mean we either get a nice low-pass effect (if
the resampling is band-limited) or we get frequency-dependent aliasing
(if the resampling is not band-limited). The aliasing would not change
position in an inharmonic way like it usually happens when you alias
against a static sample rate (like when recording to a low sample rate
interface); instead aliasing would add a timbral quality which would
be constant across the keyboard, and work in a musical fashion.
Because both the master and slave waveforms are sampled at the same
clock rate, this aliasing process is immune to the clock rate of the
samplers.

You could laso have the master send the current wave to the slave and
you could have the slave use it to wave-shape its wave with that. So
if the master has a rising saw, nothing happens, and if master has a
sine wave, then you get a sine shaper.

If the master sends a wave, where the voltage level of the nth sample
is instead replaced by the index it has after being sorted, then
"slave sorting" could work simply by wave-shaping the slave wave by
that master "sorting index" wave.


Of course you could have the slave have its own sampling input and
sampling sync input, but then have its *output* sync to the master's
sync input or a dedicated output-module sync input. Then if the sample
memory is really long, and the sync happens every now and then, you
could have a stutter effect.


You could even have "markers" in the wave, which happen when a third
input is triggered. Then, once the output module get sync, rather than
jump to the beginning of the current wave it could jump back to the
latest marker or skip forward.


And if you have a long sample memory then you can just trigger the
input sync once and have a loop play forever.


I wonder what everyone thinks of this?


This is fairly similar to some of the stuff I did in Pure Data at some
point, but I've only now figured out how this could fit into the
context of a modular synth.


Cheers,
D.


From aym-htnys at teaser.fr  Sat May 18 11:32:34 2013
From: aym-htnys at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 11:32:34 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <79be14a3b59a0b531e3fe53332f25274@oricom.ca>
References: <79be14a3b59a0b531e3fe53332f25274@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <20130518093234.GB28680@aym.net2.nerim.net>

On 2013-05-16 10:05 -0400, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:

> I know this could be a silly question but
> I was wondering if there was any 'standard' on
> minimum spacing to respect between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules ??
> I mean center to center spacing..
> I'm building a 2U width DOTCOM audio mixer module
> that could have 2 rows of 4 or 5 jacks side by side horizontaly
> at the bottom...

Don't know about any standard but the result of my experiments
is that a 30 x 17 mm grid is comfortable. People with fat
fingers may want wider spacing.

I'll add that, while most use wide vertical spacing and narrow
horizontal spacing, the opposite is better. It allows you to
place the legends on the side. As opposed to above or below,
where they're only visible when no plugs are inserted.

  http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/mscddm1.jpg

-- 
Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May 18 12:52:45 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 12:52:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Andre, what breadboard do you use there?

Can you guys suggest good breadboards to use for audio?

Of course I am not dreaming of a breadboard that would be acceptable
for designing VCOs.. but maybe filters or preamps or low-freq digital
stuff?

Cheers,
D.

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Andre Majorel <aym-htnys at teaser.fr> wrote:
> On 2013-05-16 10:05 -0400, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:
>
>> I know this could be a silly question but
>> I was wondering if there was any 'standard' on
>> minimum spacing to respect between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules ??
>> I mean center to center spacing..
>> I'm building a 2U width DOTCOM audio mixer module
>> that could have 2 rows of 4 or 5 jacks side by side horizontaly
>> at the bottom...
>
> Don't know about any standard but the result of my experiments
> is that a 30 x 17 mm grid is comfortable. People with fat
> fingers may want wider spacing.
>
> I'll add that, while most use wide vertical spacing and narrow
> horizontal spacing, the opposite is better. It allows you to
> place the legends on the side. As opposed to above or below,
> where they're only visible when no plugs are inserted.
>
>   http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/mscddm1.jpg
>
> --
> Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tom at electricdruid.net  Sat May 18 13:46:57 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 12:46:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>

Hey, what's wrong with designing VCOs on a breadboard?

I bet half the VCOs out there were designed on a breadboard. Maybe they worked a little better when they got a decent PCB, but I bet they worked fine on the breadboard too.

Anyway, I like these ones:

	http://www.kandh.com.tw/products_2.php?prod=67

Available from Maplin, Farnell, and others. I've designed plenty of filters on them, and no end of PIC and dsPIC stuff.

Seems to me breadboards fall into two camps - rows parallel to rails (like above), and rows perpendicular to rails. The second style gives you a long linear workspace with ICs parallel to the rails. The first style gives you blocks of work space with chips vertical in each block. I started off with the second style and in recent years have got used to the first. Both are workable and have advantages and disadvantages.

HTH,
Tom


On 18 May 2013, at 11:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Andre, what breadboard do you use there?
> 
> Can you guys suggest good breadboards to use for audio?
> 
> Of course I am not dreaming of a breadboard that would be acceptable
> for designing VCOs.. but maybe filters or preamps or low-freq digital
> stuff?
> 
> Cheers,
> D.



From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Sat May 18 16:38:10 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 10:38:10 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Design software for JP's modules
In-Reply-To: <51970B6A.7080105@firstpr.com.au>
References: <B0D64909-5533-466B-A893-63E996741D0C@earthlink.net>
	<d6962d237348ebb82abb62fa011fbdfa@oricom.ca>
	<51970B6A.7080105@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <000001ce53d5$51f95fc0$f5ec1f40$@oricom.ca>

Hi Robin & Paul,

You are right Paul about the schematic software.
It's OrCAD v10.3i but the PCB layout is also made out of OrCAD.
There is an inter-relation between both soft that
keeps the design consistent all along the draftings.
If you open both softwares:
OrCAD Capture for schematic And OrCAD Layout for PC artwork,
You change something in the schematic, it shows where your
changes go on the PCB real time.. Pretty useful !
Same thing the other way. 

To me it's the software I found that does the prettiest
schematic draft (Colours, line widths, the way the IC's show, etc..)
Same for the PCB final artwork. Very happy with this version.

JP

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Robin Whittle [mailto:rw at firstpr.com.au] 
Envoy? : 18 mai 2013 01:03
? : Synth DIY
Cc : Jean-Pierre Desrochers
Objet : Design software for JP's modules

Hi Jean-Pierre,

Can you tell me what schematic and PCB layout program you use for your projects?  I like the clarity of the schematic:

 http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/M103B_UltraVCO/Specifications/M103B_MOTM300_UltraVCO_partial_schematic.pdf

The PCB looks great:


http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/M100_MIDI_Interface/Module_pictures/Assembling_pcb.jpg

 - Robin



On 2013-05-18 4:06 AM, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:

> And go see my DOTCOM modules building details:
> 
> http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modular/
> 
> Lots of details on front panels, schematics, PCB's, Bill of materials, 
> etc..
> 
> Hope they'll help you in your decisions.
> JP



From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Sat May 18 17:06:08 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 11:06:08 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP199995863D5DA6B187974DFC8AD0@phx.gbl>

I use breadboards for ALL designs except HF circuits which require dead bug work

Sent from my iPhone

On May 18, 2013, at 7:46 AM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:

> Hey, what's wrong with designing VCOs on a breadboard?
> 
> I bet half the VCOs out there were designed on a breadboard. Maybe they worked a little better when they got a decent PCB, but I bet they worked fine on the breadboard too.
> 
> Anyway, I like these ones:
> 
>    http://www.kandh.com.tw/products_2.php?prod=67
> 
> Available from Maplin, Farnell, and others. I've designed plenty of filters on them, and no end of PIC and dsPIC stuff.
> 
> Seems to me breadboards fall into two camps - rows parallel to rails (like above), and rows perpendicular to rails. The second style gives you a long linear workspace with ICs parallel to the rails. The first style gives you blocks of work space with chips vertical in each block. I started off with the second style and in recent years have got used to the first. Both are workable and have advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom
> 
> 
> On 18 May 2013, at 11:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hey Andre, what breadboard do you use there?
>> 
>> Can you guys suggest good breadboards to use for audio?
>> 
>> Of course I am not dreaming of a breadboard that would be acceptable
>> for designing VCOs.. but maybe filters or preamps or low-freq digital
>> stuff?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> D.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sat May 18 21:01:45 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 12:01:45 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <7755E78D2A2140F2A7F9ED3A93807CD9@galvanox01>

> Hey, what's wrong with designing VCOs on a breadboard?

The Dixie was developed on breadboard, and it worked great.  The Rubicon was
only simulated and went straight to proto PCB -- all debugging was done on
the protos.

Now, I find breadboarding physically to be a big pain in the ass, so I
typically just lay out a PCB, etch, drill, and build it up to test circuits.
I use the same Excel-based graphical technique to lay out both breadboards
and PCBs, so it's actually no extra work just to go straight to the PCB (in
fact, it's easier, because I'm not constrained by the structure of the
breadboard).  This is especially effective with smaller circuits, as I
always have lots of scrap pieces of PCB laying around.  For a modest sized
PCB, I can print, transfer, etch, drill, tin, and be stuffing and testing
within about half an hour.  If the circuit works (or only needs one or two
kludges), then I have a permanent board to use.



From tim.parkhurst at gmail.com  Sat May 18 21:05:55 2013
From: tim.parkhurst at gmail.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 12:05:55 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACDGQT-FFu8YT6jeki-uoqaC+=sUuj9G1A3yVZVa-xQvZRwCcQ@mail.gmail.com>

I do ALL my design work on breadboards. In fact, every time I've had a
PCB made without breadboarding the circuit first, it has come back to
bite me on the ass and required several tweaks afterwards.

For audio stuff, breadboards are fine. I might not use one if it's
more than ten or fifteen years old (especially the cheap ones), as the
spring contacts can stretch and become intermittent, but the
convenience is worth having to buy a new one every decade or so.

Tim (still has a little spring left in in contacts) Servo
---
"Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
- H.L. Hastings


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:52 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Andre, what breadboard do you use there?
>
> Can you guys suggest good breadboards to use for audio?
>
> Of course I am not dreaming of a breadboard that would be acceptable
> for designing VCOs.. but maybe filters or preamps or low-freq digital
> stuff?
>
> Cheers,
> D.
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Andre Majorel <aym-htnys at teaser.fr> wrote:
>> On 2013-05-16 10:05 -0400, Jean-Pierre Desrochers wrote:
>>
>>> I know this could be a silly question but
>>> I was wondering if there was any 'standard' on
>>> minimum spacing to respect between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules ??
>>> I mean center to center spacing..
>>> I'm building a 2U width DOTCOM audio mixer module
>>> that could have 2 rows of 4 or 5 jacks side by side horizontaly
>>> at the bottom...
>>
>> Don't know about any standard but the result of my experiments
>> is that a 30 x 17 mm grid is comfortable. People with fat
>> fingers may want wider spacing.
>>
>> I'll add that, while most use wide vertical spacing and narrow
>> horizontal spacing, the opposite is better. It allows you to
>> place the legends on the side. As opposed to above or below,
>> where they're only visible when no plugs are inserted.
>>
>>   http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/mscddm1.jpg
>>
>> --
>> Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Sun May 19 03:33:04 2013
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 11:33:04 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com><6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
	<7755E78D2A2140F2A7F9ED3A93807CD9@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <FDDB7D2552E745C287A517D178DD169E@ownerf0d9273f5>

Never had any luck with those plastic breadboards, I'm a bit of a klutz & 
things pull out, or I drop the board etc.
I use vero, just solder it together.. then when it doesn't work, at least I 
know it isn't a bad contact.
And once a vero proto is working, well you have an actual device. Which 
might be useful ;-D

paul perry Melbourne Australia 



From dave at westphila.net  Sun May 19 06:19:22 2013
From: dave at westphila.net (David Moylan)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 21:19:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Blacet Stonz Phaser PCB / MOTM Panel
Message-ID: <519852CA.2080601@westphila.net>

I've got a Blacet Stonz Phaser PCB, 5U MOTM style panel and 4 pot 
bracket for sale.  $90 and I'll pay shipping within the continental US.

Thanks.

Dave


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sun May 19 11:14:57 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 11:14:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhX6NDJAdZ-fKKFDWsttYYf-6KmCvN3Gi9Em1byw8O8BQ@mail.gmail.com>

Tom & co, that's great advice! Thanks!

Hey, I really like those K&H circuit labs! Might get some myself just
for fun... Can't find any place to buy them though? I REALLY wish they
had bigger photos online! Oh, oops... just found a distributor for
their training kits. 3000 euro each! I think I'll skip buying this
time!

Regarding breadboards: I noticed some cost more and some much less...
are the 3M or Global Specialties so much better?
I've also noticed that some of them don't have silver contacts..

Can you use this to run a circuit at 30V rails?

Any ideas what the capacitive coupling between bars running parallel
would be? What about the impedance of the clips?

Thanks

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> Hey, what's wrong with designing VCOs on a breadboard?
>
> I bet half the VCOs out there were designed on a breadboard. Maybe they worked a little better when they got a decent PCB, but I bet they worked fine on the breadboard too.
>
> Anyway, I like these ones:
>
>         http://www.kandh.com.tw/products_2.php?prod=67
>
> Available from Maplin, Farnell, and others. I've designed plenty of filters on them, and no end of PIC and dsPIC stuff.
>
> Seems to me breadboards fall into two camps - rows parallel to rails (like above), and rows perpendicular to rails. The second style gives you a long linear workspace with ICs parallel to the rails. The first style gives you blocks of work space with chips vertical in each block. I started off with the second style and in recent years have got used to the first. Both are workable and have advantages and disadvantages.
>
> HTH,
> Tom
>
>
> On 18 May 2013, at 11:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Andre, what breadboard do you use there?
>>
>> Can you guys suggest good breadboards to use for audio?
>>
>> Of course I am not dreaming of a breadboard that would be acceptable
>> for designing VCOs.. but maybe filters or preamps or low-freq digital
>> stuff?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>


From tokalo at videotron.ca  Sun May 19 11:47:33 2013
From: tokalo at videotron.ca (Tony Kalomiris)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 05:47:33 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <FDDB7D2552E745C287A517D178DD169E@ownerf0d9273f5>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
	<7755E78D2A2140F2A7F9ED3A93807CD9@galvanox01>
	<FDDB7D2552E745C287A517D178DD169E@ownerf0d9273f5>
Message-ID: <2C9C6946-C88A-4B4E-85E6-FEA38406EFFE@videotron.ca>

Paul is that the Vero board where you cut tracks with the Vero tool, or pad per hole and you use the component leads for connections ? I loved building from the UK mags like Practical Electronics, they always had a diagram for Vero construction showing you where to cut and put jumpers. (Anyone remember those A.R. Bradford (sp) DIY projects like the "Percussion Microsynth?" Ah those were the days...and of course E&MM too.)

 There was a Canadian product called 'END" (Electronic Network Designer) that was a combination breadboard and prototyping card....you flip it over when done and solder the breadboard jumpers...and you're done (the cover had a foam to hold the parts in place...but only good for low profile designs or less you end up with parts falling out...Good idea but costly and the final board warped when fully populated.


Tony K

On 2013-05-18, at 9:33 PM, Paul Perry wrote:

> Never had any luck with those plastic breadboards, I'm a bit of a klutz & things pull out, or I drop the board etc.
> I use vero, just solder it together.. then when it doesn't work, at least I know it isn't a bad contact.
> And once a vero proto is working, well you have an actual device. Which might be useful ;-D
> 
> paul perry Melbourne Australia 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Sun May 19 12:46:39 2013
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 20:46:39 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
	<7755E78D2A2140F2A7F9ED3A93807CD9@galvanox01>
	<FDDB7D2552E745C287A517D178DD169E@ownerf0d9273f5>
	<2C9C6946-C88A-4B4E-85E6-FEA38406EFFE@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <C25E2C1821124A0D8C9AB496A84A9723@ownerf0d9273f5>

Yeah, it's really stripboard (the generic version of the original Vero.)
My secret weapon is a wire brush - after soldering I scrub the soldered side 
with a stiff wire brush to remove any shorts.

As for those Penfold and PE projects, I don't know how many DIY careers were 
blighted by the errors in each project!

I always use a drill bit (the kind for pop rivets is ideal) in a handle to 
cut the trace. Works better than the expensive special tool.

On the other hand, all the professionals I know use the "pad per hole" 
stuff. You can build higher density, but I personally can't keep track of 
anything when I use that. I am a bear of little brain.

paul perry MelbourneAustralia

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Kalomiris" <tokalo at videotron.ca>
To: "Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au>
Cc: "synthdiy diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] breadboard, was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on 
DOTCOM modules..


> Paul is that the Vero board where you cut tracks with the Vero tool, or 
> pad per hole and you use the component leads for connections ? I loved 
> building from the UK mags like Practical Electronics, they always had a 
> diagram for Vero construction showing you where to cut and put jumpers. 
> (Anyone remember those A.R. Bradford (sp) DIY projects like the 
> "Percussion Microsynth?" Ah those were the days...and of course E&MM too.)
>
> There was a Canadian product called 'END" (Electronic Network Designer) 
> that was a combination breadboard and prototyping card....you flip it over 
> when done and solder the breadboard jumpers...and you're done (the cover 
> had a foam to hold the parts in place...but only good for low profile 
> designs or less you end up with parts falling out...Good idea but costly 
> and the final board warped when fully populated.
>



From jim at cernproductions.com  Sun May 19 13:17:20 2013
From: jim at cernproductions.com (Jim Credland)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 12:17:20 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator sampler with sorting capabilities concept
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUg-1sEW7V7HZ1gokY8MRsDQs0x-jj-J9GTqX7rmTR6LOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUg-1sEW7V7HZ1gokY8MRsDQs0x-jj-J9GTqX7rmTR6LOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D30D69C-E433-4615-8EA2-D3C06192EB0B@cernproductions.com>


I don't know if it would sound good, but I'm very interested.   I'm also wondering what happens if you do one iteration of a sort between each cycle of a waveform.  You could start with just noise ? it might sound like a boring waveform cross-fade, but it might not :)

How far did you get with the pure data implementation? 

cheers! J. 



On 18 May 2013, at 09:30, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi guys,
> I was wondering what you guys thought of this synthesis technique. Has
> anyone tried this? Could it sound good?
> 
> Here's a chat log between me and a fellow synthesis fan.
> 
> have you ever tried running a waveform through a sorting algorithm?
> That is, take each cycle and sort that. If you sort the waveform fully
> you should get something like a saw. But you could limit the amount of
> work the sorting algo can perform before the waveform cycle is
> released. If you put this parameter on a knob then you could perhaps
> have a somewhat-smooth transition from your current waveform to a saw
> waveform.
> 
> I think it could even work for analogue synths, you'd just need
> somewhat of a buffer
> 
> 
> you could have a sampler which works like this: it has a sync input
> and a wave input from a VCO. when the vco outputs sync, it starts
> sampling the waveform until the next sync. Once that's done, this is
> called "a wave". Now for the output. Every time a wave is sampled, it
> is placed on a queue (fifo). When a vco sync happens, the output
> module takes the next wave from the fifo and starts outputting it. As
> long as the wave is being output, syncs can be ignored (or instead, it
> could jump to the next waveform at index 0, or to the next waveform at
> the same index as it currently is). If there is only one wave left in
> the queue, and the device is getting sync pulses over and over, then
> it could either start outputting silence, or start outputting the last
> wave it had in the queue.
> 
> 
> this way it could work even delay-less (but would mangle the output in
> a fun way)
> 
> 
> Snd of course, while this happens the currently output waveform could
> be mangled by: sorting, randomizing, sorting or shaping according to
> the current waveform shape in a second sampler, etc.
> 
> 
> could be fun when run on FM oscillators which change pitch.
> 
> 
> So what "slaving to another sampler" would mean is that, in the master
> sampler you have the sorting algorithm, and it moves sample 4 to
> position 1. Then the slave sampler doesn't sort its own samples,
> instead it just moves sample 4 to position 1, just like the master
> sampler. I think this might only work if the wave are "normalized" to
> some length, or alternatively if the waves in the slave get resampled
> to the length of the master, or alternatively if the waves in the
> master get resampled to the length of the slave. Resampling slave to
> length of master would mean we either get a nice low-pass effect (if
> the resampling is band-limited) or we get frequency-dependent aliasing
> (if the resampling is not band-limited). The aliasing would not change
> position in an inharmonic way like it usually happens when you alias
> against a static sample rate (like when recording to a low sample rate
> interface); instead aliasing would add a timbral quality which would
> be constant across the keyboard, and work in a musical fashion.
> Because both the master and slave waveforms are sampled at the same
> clock rate, this aliasing process is immune to the clock rate of the
> samplers.
> 
> You could laso have the master send the current wave to the slave and
> you could have the slave use it to wave-shape its wave with that. So
> if the master has a rising saw, nothing happens, and if master has a
> sine wave, then you get a sine shaper.
> 
> If the master sends a wave, where the voltage level of the nth sample
> is instead replaced by the index it has after being sorted, then
> "slave sorting" could work simply by wave-shaping the slave wave by
> that master "sorting index" wave.
> 
> 
> Of course you could have the slave have its own sampling input and
> sampling sync input, but then have its *output* sync to the master's
> sync input or a dedicated output-module sync input. Then if the sample
> memory is really long, and the sync happens every now and then, you
> could have a stutter effect.
> 
> 
> You could even have "markers" in the wave, which happen when a third
> input is triggered. Then, once the output module get sync, rather than
> jump to the beginning of the current wave it could jump back to the
> latest marker or skip forward.
> 
> 
> And if you have a long sample memory then you can just trigger the
> input sync once and have a loop play forever.
> 
> 
> I wonder what everyone thinks of this?
> 
> 
> This is fairly similar to some of the stuff I did in Pure Data at some
> point, but I've only now figured out how this could fit into the
> context of a modular synth.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> D.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From tokalo at videotron.ca  Sun May 19 13:51:36 2013
From: tokalo at videotron.ca (Tony Kalomiris)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 07:51:36 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <C25E2C1821124A0D8C9AB496A84A9723@ownerf0d9273f5>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
	<7755E78D2A2140F2A7F9ED3A93807CD9@galvanox01>
	<FDDB7D2552E745C287A517D178DD169E@ownerf0d9273f5>
	<2C9C6946-C88A-4B4E-85E6-FEA38406EFFE@videotron.ca>
	<C25E2C1821124A0D8C9AB496A84A9723@ownerf0d9273f5>
Message-ID: <4F0E6AB0-BED8-4FEC-8E5B-81F1C3C90AD9@videotron.ca>

On 2013-05-19, at 6:46 AM, Paul Perry wrote:

> 
> 
> As for those Penfold and PE projects, I don't know how many DIY careers were blighted by the errors in each project!

I know what you mean, I gave up trying to get his UART (6402) cpu-less MIDI - to CV converter to work properly.
Most of my early music projects from ETI, PE all turned into AM radios ! ( I think the designers were HAM/SWl'rs ;-
they needed  RF decoupling usually.) The Canadian version of ETI was run by one overworked dude named Steve Rimmer and were full or errors...I don't think he ever tested his projects. Still it was fun to learn.

TK

> 


From wackyvorlon at me.com  Sun May 19 14:45:24 2013
From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 08:45:24 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator sampler with sorting capabilities concept
In-Reply-To: <5D30D69C-E433-4615-8EA2-D3C06192EB0B@cernproductions.com>
References: <CA+9GZUg-1sEW7V7HZ1gokY8MRsDQs0x-jj-J9GTqX7rmTR6LOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D30D69C-E433-4615-8EA2-D3C06192EB0B@cernproductions.com>
Message-ID: <FE315A18-DA48-491B-BF4C-A64410A056F5@me.com>

I think it would probably sound like increasing amounts of static, until you get to the point of a saw. You'd be creating discontinuities in the wave, and those tend to sound like clicks. 

A counter-proposal: Take the derivative of the wave, and use that derivative to control the slope(and hence frequency) of a sawtooth. 

--------
Paul Anderson
Facilities Manager
Hackforge

On 2013-05-19, at 7:17 AM, Jim Credland <jim at cernproductions.com> wrote:

> 
> I don't know if it would sound good, but I'm very interested.   I'm also wondering what happens if you do one iteration of a sort between each cycle of a waveform.  You could start with just noise ? it might sound like a boring waveform cross-fade, but it might not :)
> 
> How far did you get with the pure data implementation? 
> 
> cheers! J. 
> 
> 
> 
> On 18 May 2013, at 09:30, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi guys,
>> I was wondering what you guys thought of this synthesis technique. Has
>> anyone tried this? Could it sound good?
>> 
>> Here's a chat log between me and a fellow synthesis fan.
>> 
>> have you ever tried running a waveform through a sorting algorithm?
>> That is, take each cycle and sort that. If you sort the waveform fully
>> you should get something like a saw. But you could limit the amount of
>> work the sorting algo can perform before the waveform cycle is
>> released. If you put this parameter on a knob then you could perhaps
>> have a somewhat-smooth transition from your current waveform to a saw
>> waveform.
>> 
>> I think it could even work for analogue synths, you'd just need
>> somewhat of a buffer
>> 
>> 
>> you could have a sampler which works like this: it has a sync input
>> and a wave input from a VCO. when the vco outputs sync, it starts
>> sampling the waveform until the next sync. Once that's done, this is
>> called "a wave". Now for the output. Every time a wave is sampled, it
>> is placed on a queue (fifo). When a vco sync happens, the output
>> module takes the next wave from the fifo and starts outputting it. As
>> long as the wave is being output, syncs can be ignored (or instead, it
>> could jump to the next waveform at index 0, or to the next waveform at
>> the same index as it currently is). If there is only one wave left in
>> the queue, and the device is getting sync pulses over and over, then
>> it could either start outputting silence, or start outputting the last
>> wave it had in the queue.
>> 
>> 
>> this way it could work even delay-less (but would mangle the output in
>> a fun way)
>> 
>> 
>> Snd of course, while this happens the currently output waveform could
>> be mangled by: sorting, randomizing, sorting or shaping according to
>> the current waveform shape in a second sampler, etc.
>> 
>> 
>> could be fun when run on FM oscillators which change pitch.
>> 
>> 
>> So what "slaving to another sampler" would mean is that, in the master
>> sampler you have the sorting algorithm, and it moves sample 4 to
>> position 1. Then the slave sampler doesn't sort its own samples,
>> instead it just moves sample 4 to position 1, just like the master
>> sampler. I think this might only work if the wave are "normalized" to
>> some length, or alternatively if the waves in the slave get resampled
>> to the length of the master, or alternatively if the waves in the
>> master get resampled to the length of the slave. Resampling slave to
>> length of master would mean we either get a nice low-pass effect (if
>> the resampling is band-limited) or we get frequency-dependent aliasing
>> (if the resampling is not band-limited). The aliasing would not change
>> position in an inharmonic way like it usually happens when you alias
>> against a static sample rate (like when recording to a low sample rate
>> interface); instead aliasing would add a timbral quality which would
>> be constant across the keyboard, and work in a musical fashion.
>> Because both the master and slave waveforms are sampled at the same
>> clock rate, this aliasing process is immune to the clock rate of the
>> samplers.
>> 
>> You could laso have the master send the current wave to the slave and
>> you could have the slave use it to wave-shape its wave with that. So
>> if the master has a rising saw, nothing happens, and if master has a
>> sine wave, then you get a sine shaper.
>> 
>> If the master sends a wave, where the voltage level of the nth sample
>> is instead replaced by the index it has after being sorted, then
>> "slave sorting" could work simply by wave-shaping the slave wave by
>> that master "sorting index" wave.
>> 
>> 
>> Of course you could have the slave have its own sampling input and
>> sampling sync input, but then have its *output* sync to the master's
>> sync input or a dedicated output-module sync input. Then if the sample
>> memory is really long, and the sync happens every now and then, you
>> could have a stutter effect.
>> 
>> 
>> You could even have "markers" in the wave, which happen when a third
>> input is triggered. Then, once the output module get sync, rather than
>> jump to the beginning of the current wave it could jump back to the
>> latest marker or skip forward.
>> 
>> 
>> And if you have a long sample memory then you can just trigger the
>> input sync once and have a loop play forever.
>> 
>> 
>> I wonder what everyone thinks of this?
>> 
>> 
>> This is fairly similar to some of the stuff I did in Pure Data at some
>> point, but I've only now figured out how this could fit into the
>> context of a modular synth.
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From thomas at pdp7.org  Sun May 19 15:26:06 2013
From: thomas at pdp7.org (Thomas Strathmann)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 15:26:06 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <C25E2C1821124A0D8C9AB496A84A9723@ownerf0d9273f5>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
	<7755E78D2A2140F2A7F9ED3A93807CD9@galvanox01>
	<FDDB7D2552E745C287A517D178DD169E@ownerf0d9273f5>
	<2C9C6946-C88A-4B4E-85E6-FEA38406EFFE@videotron.ca>
	<C25E2C1821124A0D8C9AB496A84A9723@ownerf0d9273f5>
Message-ID: <5198D2EE.7020408@pdp7.org>

On 19.05.13 12:46, Paul Perry wrote:
> I always use a drill bit (the kind for pop rivets is ideal) in a handle
> to cut the trace. Works better than the expensive special tool.

So far I have had good success with just using an exacto knife. Use it
for cutting pieces of board, too.

	Thomas


From music.maker at gte.net  Sun May 19 17:07:25 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 08:07:25 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
Message-ID: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan>


"Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>Yeah, it's really stripboard (the generic version of the original Vero.)
>My secret weapon is a wire brush - after soldering I scrub the soldered side 
>with a stiff wire brush to remove any shorts.
>
>As for those Penfold and PE projects, I don't know how many DIY careers were 
>blighted by the errors in each project!
>
>I always use a drill bit (the kind for pop rivets is ideal) in a handle to 
>cut the trace. Works better than the expensive special tool.
>
>On the other hand, all the professionals I know use the "pad per hole" 
>stuff. You can build higher density, but I personally can't keep track of 
>anything when I use that. I am a bear of little brain.
>
>paul perry MelbourneAustralia

+1 here for bear of little brain.  I use stripboard - sometimes after using a breadboard
because the breadboard allows component adjustments easier than unsoldering/resoldering. 
The stripboard I use is so close to the pattern on solderless breadboard, that I can
literally do an eyeball copy from one to the other.  At other times, such as my recent
Harpie project using 28 dsPIC33F ICs, I started the project on stripboard.  For mainly
digital stuff, where it's just wiring pins together, I go straight to stripboard, but for
analog where I'm not so sure of my component value (ahem) calculations, I like solderless
breadboard first.

As always, you milage may vary...

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Tony Kalomiris" <tokalo at videotron.ca>
>To: "Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au>
>Cc: "synthdiy diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 7:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [sdiy] breadboard, was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on 
>DOTCOM modules..
>
>
>> Paul is that the Vero board where you cut tracks with the Vero tool, or 
>> pad per hole and you use the component leads for connections ? I loved 
>> building from the UK mags like Practical Electronics, they always had a 
>> diagram for Vero construction showing you where to cut and put jumpers. 
>> (Anyone remember those A.R. Bradford (sp) DIY projects like the 
>> "Percussion Microsynth?" Ah those were the days...and of course E&MM too.)
>>
>> There was a Canadian product called 'END" (Electronic Network Designer) 
>> that was a combination breadboard and prototyping card....you flip it over 
>> when done and solder the breadboard jumpers...and you're done (the cover 
>> had a foam to hold the parts in place...but only good for low profile 
>> designs or less you end up with parts falling out...Good idea but costly 
>> and the final board warped when fully populated.
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sun May 19 17:30:41 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 17:30:41 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator sampler with sorting capabilities concept
In-Reply-To: <FE315A18-DA48-491B-BF4C-A64410A056F5@me.com>
References: <CA+9GZUg-1sEW7V7HZ1gokY8MRsDQs0x-jj-J9GTqX7rmTR6LOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D30D69C-E433-4615-8EA2-D3C06192EB0B@cernproductions.com>
	<FE315A18-DA48-491B-BF4C-A64410A056F5@me.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiixDCi+9JCAPPfaF8rzKr2zZt79-thNdLN6NHuBiL8EQ@mail.gmail.com>

Jim,
it's been quite some time since I've touched pd at all. I don't
exactly remember what things sounded like back then.

Paul,
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
> I think it would probably sound like increasing amounts of static, until you get to the point of a saw. You'd be creating discontinuities in the wave, and those tend to sound like clicks.

I guess it depends which sorting algorithm we're looking at. For
bubble sort, once you've sorted a sample, it's going to be part of a
sawtooth, which ramps down to finally culminate in the rest of the
wave. The rest of the wave will have less voltage than the final point
of this sawtooth. The rest of the wave is most likely going to stay
continuous.

I wonder what other sorting algorithms could sound like. Or other
operations (most likely bijections) that happen on lists..

Idea: convolve slave wave by master wave..

>
> A counter-proposal: Take the derivative of the wave, and use that derivative to control the slope(and hence frequency) of a sawtooth.


Aka VCO->HPF->VCO? :)

Cheers,
D.



>>
>> I don't know if it would sound good, but I'm very interested.   I'm also wondering what happens if you do one iteration of a sort between each cycle of a waveform.  You could start with just noise ? it might sound like a boring waveform cross-fade, but it might not :)
>>
>> How far did you get with the pure data implementation?
>>
>> cheers! J.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18 May 2013, at 09:30, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>> I was wondering what you guys thought of this synthesis technique. Has
>>> anyone tried this? Could it sound good?
>>>
>>> Here's a chat log between me and a fellow synthesis fan.
>>>
>>> have you ever tried running a waveform through a sorting algorithm?
>>> That is, take each cycle and sort that. If you sort the waveform fully
>>> you should get something like a saw. But you could limit the amount of
>>> work the sorting algo can perform before the waveform cycle is
>>> released. If you put this parameter on a knob then you could perhaps
>>> have a somewhat-smooth transition from your current waveform to a saw
>>> waveform.
>>>
>>> I think it could even work for analogue synths, you'd just need
>>> somewhat of a buffer
>>>
>>>
>>> you could have a sampler which works like this: it has a sync input
>>> and a wave input from a VCO. when the vco outputs sync, it starts
>>> sampling the waveform until the next sync. Once that's done, this is
>>> called "a wave". Now for the output. Every time a wave is sampled, it
>>> is placed on a queue (fifo). When a vco sync happens, the output
>>> module takes the next wave from the fifo and starts outputting it. As
>>> long as the wave is being output, syncs can be ignored (or instead, it
>>> could jump to the next waveform at index 0, or to the next waveform at
>>> the same index as it currently is). If there is only one wave left in
>>> the queue, and the device is getting sync pulses over and over, then
>>> it could either start outputting silence, or start outputting the last
>>> wave it had in the queue.
>>>
>>>
>>> this way it could work even delay-less (but would mangle the output in
>>> a fun way)
>>>
>>>
>>> Snd of course, while this happens the currently output waveform could
>>> be mangled by: sorting, randomizing, sorting or shaping according to
>>> the current waveform shape in a second sampler, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> could be fun when run on FM oscillators which change pitch.
>>>
>>>
>>> So what "slaving to another sampler" would mean is that, in the master
>>> sampler you have the sorting algorithm, and it moves sample 4 to
>>> position 1. Then the slave sampler doesn't sort its own samples,
>>> instead it just moves sample 4 to position 1, just like the master
>>> sampler. I think this might only work if the wave are "normalized" to
>>> some length, or alternatively if the waves in the slave get resampled
>>> to the length of the master, or alternatively if the waves in the
>>> master get resampled to the length of the slave. Resampling slave to
>>> length of master would mean we either get a nice low-pass effect (if
>>> the resampling is band-limited) or we get frequency-dependent aliasing
>>> (if the resampling is not band-limited). The aliasing would not change
>>> position in an inharmonic way like it usually happens when you alias
>>> against a static sample rate (like when recording to a low sample rate
>>> interface); instead aliasing would add a timbral quality which would
>>> be constant across the keyboard, and work in a musical fashion.
>>> Because both the master and slave waveforms are sampled at the same
>>> clock rate, this aliasing process is immune to the clock rate of the
>>> samplers.
>>>
>>> You could laso have the master send the current wave to the slave and
>>> you could have the slave use it to wave-shape its wave with that. So
>>> if the master has a rising saw, nothing happens, and if master has a
>>> sine wave, then you get a sine shaper.
>>>
>>> If the master sends a wave, where the voltage level of the nth sample
>>> is instead replaced by the index it has after being sorted, then
>>> "slave sorting" could work simply by wave-shaping the slave wave by
>>> that master "sorting index" wave.
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course you could have the slave have its own sampling input and
>>> sampling sync input, but then have its *output* sync to the master's
>>> sync input or a dedicated output-module sync input. Then if the sample
>>> memory is really long, and the sync happens every now and then, you
>>> could have a stutter effect.
>>>
>>>
>>> You could even have "markers" in the wave, which happen when a third
>>> input is triggered. Then, once the output module get sync, rather than
>>> jump to the beginning of the current wave it could jump back to the
>>> latest marker or skip forward.
>>>
>>>
>>> And if you have a long sample memory then you can just trigger the
>>> input sync once and have a loop play forever.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder what everyone thinks of this?
>>>
>>>
>>> This is fairly similar to some of the stuff I did in Pure Data at some
>>> point, but I've only now figured out how this could fit into the
>>> context of a modular synth.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> D.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sun May 19 17:50:33 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 08:50:33 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan>
Message-ID: <7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01>

Stripboard, veroboard, hole-per-pad...

Git yerself an old laserjet printer, a $100 drill press, a pyrex dish and
some chemicals, and you can make your own PCBs.  It is SO much easier than
trying to fit a circuit onto a pre-existing layout.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of 
> Scott Gravenhorst
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:07 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] breadboard,was: Minimum spacing between 
> 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
> 
> 
> "Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
> >Yeah, it's really stripboard (the generic version of the original 
> >Vero.) My secret weapon is a wire brush - after soldering I 
> scrub the 
> >soldered side with a stiff wire brush to remove any shorts.
> >
> >As for those Penfold and PE projects, I don't know how many 
> DIY careers 
> >were blighted by the errors in each project!
> >
> >I always use a drill bit (the kind for pop rivets is ideal) 
> in a handle 
> >to cut the trace. Works better than the expensive special tool.
> >
> >On the other hand, all the professionals I know use the "pad 
> per hole" 
> >stuff. You can build higher density, but I personally can't 
> keep track 
> >of anything when I use that. I am a bear of little brain.
> >
> >paul perry MelbourneAustralia
> 
> +1 here for bear of little brain.  I use stripboard - sometimes after 
> +using a breadboard
> because the breadboard allows component adjustments easier 
> than unsoldering/resoldering. 
> The stripboard I use is so close to the pattern on solderless 
> breadboard, that I can literally do an eyeball copy from one 
> to the other.  At other times, such as my recent Harpie 
> project using 28 dsPIC33F ICs, I started the project on 
> stripboard.  For mainly digital stuff, where it's just wiring 
> pins together, I go straight to stripboard, but for analog 
> where I'm not so sure of my component value (ahem) 
> calculations, I like solderless breadboard first.
> 
> As always, you milage may vary...
> 
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tony Kalomiris" <tokalo at videotron.ca>
> >To: "Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au>
> >Cc: "synthdiy diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> >Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 7:47 PM
> >Subject: Re: [sdiy] breadboard, was: Minimum spacing between 
> 1/4" jacks 
> >on DOTCOM modules..
> >
> >
> >> Paul is that the Vero board where you cut tracks with the 
> Vero tool, 
> >> or pad per hole and you use the component leads for 
> connections ? I 
> >> loved building from the UK mags like Practical Electronics, they 
> >> always had a diagram for Vero construction showing you 
> where to cut and put jumpers.
> >> (Anyone remember those A.R. Bradford (sp) DIY projects like the 
> >> "Percussion Microsynth?" Ah those were the days...and of 
> course E&MM 
> >> too.)
> >>
> >> There was a Canadian product called 'END" (Electronic Network 
> >> Designer) that was a combination breadboard and prototyping 
> >> card....you flip it over when done and solder the breadboard 
> >> jumpers...and you're done (the cover had a foam to hold 
> the parts in 
> >> place...but only good for low profile designs or less you 
> end up with 
> >> parts falling out...Good idea but costly and the final 
> board warped when fully populated.
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Synth-diy mailing list
> >Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >
> 
> -- ScottG
> ______________________________________________________________
> __________
> -- Scott Gravenhorst
> -- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
> -- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
> -- Some Random Electronics Bits: 
> jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
> -- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From tom at electricdruid.net  Sun May 19 18:23:05 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 17:23:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan>
	<7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net>

I don't agree. I find making PCBs a bit tedious, if I'm honest. I use stripboard because then I can start building the circuit, without having any messing about. Each to their own, I guess.

Tom

On 19 May 2013, at 16:50, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:

> Stripboard, veroboard, hole-per-pad...
> 
> Git yerself an old laserjet printer, a $100 drill press, a pyrex dish and
> some chemicals, and you can make your own PCBs.  It is SO much easier than
> trying to fit a circuit onto a pre-existing layout.
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
>> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of 
>> Scott Gravenhorst
>> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:07 AM
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] breadboard,was: Minimum spacing between 
>> 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
>> 
>> 
>> "Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>> Yeah, it's really stripboard (the generic version of the original 
>>> Vero.) My secret weapon is a wire brush - after soldering I 
>> scrub the 
>>> soldered side with a stiff wire brush to remove any shorts.
>>> 
>>> As for those Penfold and PE projects, I don't know how many 
>> DIY careers 
>>> were blighted by the errors in each project!
>>> 
>>> I always use a drill bit (the kind for pop rivets is ideal) 
>> in a handle 
>>> to cut the trace. Works better than the expensive special tool.
>>> 
>>> On the other hand, all the professionals I know use the "pad 
>> per hole" 
>>> stuff. You can build higher density, but I personally can't 
>> keep track 
>>> of anything when I use that. I am a bear of little brain.
>>> 
>>> paul perry MelbourneAustralia
>> 
>> +1 here for bear of little brain.  I use stripboard - sometimes after 
>> +using a breadboard
>> because the breadboard allows component adjustments easier 
>> than unsoldering/resoldering. 
>> The stripboard I use is so close to the pattern on solderless 
>> breadboard, that I can literally do an eyeball copy from one 
>> to the other.  At other times, such as my recent Harpie 
>> project using 28 dsPIC33F ICs, I started the project on 
>> stripboard.  For mainly digital stuff, where it's just wiring 
>> pins together, I go straight to stripboard, but for analog 
>> where I'm not so sure of my component value (ahem) 
>> calculations, I like solderless breadboard first.
>> 
>> As always, you milage may vary...
>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tony Kalomiris" <tokalo at videotron.ca>
>>> To: "Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au>
>>> Cc: "synthdiy diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 7:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] breadboard, was: Minimum spacing between 
>> 1/4" jacks 
>>> on DOTCOM modules..
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Paul is that the Vero board where you cut tracks with the 
>> Vero tool, 
>>>> or pad per hole and you use the component leads for 
>> connections ? I 
>>>> loved building from the UK mags like Practical Electronics, they 
>>>> always had a diagram for Vero construction showing you 
>> where to cut and put jumpers.
>>>> (Anyone remember those A.R. Bradford (sp) DIY projects like the 
>>>> "Percussion Microsynth?" Ah those were the days...and of 
>> course E&MM 
>>>> too.)
>>>> 
>>>> There was a Canadian product called 'END" (Electronic Network 
>>>> Designer) that was a combination breadboard and prototyping 
>>>> card....you flip it over when done and solder the breadboard 
>>>> jumpers...and you're done (the cover had a foam to hold 
>> the parts in 
>>>> place...but only good for low profile designs or less you 
>> end up with 
>>>> parts falling out...Good idea but costly and the final 
>> board warped when fully populated.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> 
>> 
>> -- ScottG
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> __________
>> -- Scott Gravenhorst
>> -- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
>> -- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
>> -- Some Random Electronics Bits: 
>> jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
>> -- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sun May 19 18:30:10 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 09:30:10 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan>
	<7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01>
	<6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <2F3833EF455A42F093282B133698C942@galvanox01>

It seems to me that, in order to do stripboard correctly, one still needs to
lay out the circuit graphically.  That's the time consuming part.  However,
layout is much easier if you don't have to conform to some pre-existing
layout.

The physical making of the board is trivially easy once you have a system in
place.  It may take a few minutes longer than stuffing a breadboard, but
then you have a permanent circuit.

 
> I don't agree. I find making PCBs a bit tedious, if I'm 
> honest. I use stripboard because then I can start building 
> the circuit, without having any messing about. Each to their 
> own, I guess.
> 
> Tom
> 
> On 19 May 2013, at 16:50, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Stripboard, veroboard, hole-per-pad...
> > 
> > Git yerself an old laserjet printer, a $100 drill press, a 
> pyrex dish 
> > and some chemicals, and you can make your own PCBs.  It is SO much 
> > easier than trying to fit a circuit onto a pre-existing layout.



From music.maker at gte.net  Sun May 19 19:25:01 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 10:25:01 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] was:  breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules.. NEW
 thread is "Harpie"
Message-ID: <201305191725.r4JHP0jr029543@linux7.lan>


Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:
>Hi Scott,
>
>You wrote:
>
>> . . . my recent Harpie project using 28 dsPIC33F ICs . . .

Egad...  28 _pin_... there were 3 of the ICs...

>Can you tell me, and hopefully the list, about this project?
>
>  Cheers
>
>    - Robin

I believe I posted something about it, but if I did not, here is
information about the project and 3 musical pieces done with it:

http://jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/dsPIC_synth/

The pieces at the above link all leave the 2 timbre pots in one position.
 This link is to a demo that includes me doing some random knob twizzling
so you can hear how the instrument's timbre changes.

http://electro-music.com/forum/download.php?id=32602

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits:
jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From jim at cernproductions.com  Sun May 19 20:19:24 2013
From: jim at cernproductions.com (Jim Credland)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 19:19:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator sampler with sorting capabilities concept
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiixDCi+9JCAPPfaF8rzKr2zZt79-thNdLN6NHuBiL8EQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUg-1sEW7V7HZ1gokY8MRsDQs0x-jj-J9GTqX7rmTR6LOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D30D69C-E433-4615-8EA2-D3C06192EB0B@cernproductions.com>
	<FE315A18-DA48-491B-BF4C-A64410A056F5@me.com>
	<CA+9GZUiixDCi+9JCAPPfaF8rzKr2zZt79-thNdLN6NHuBiL8EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <212EAC5C-A96E-4ECA-9F2E-03C7BA37A098@cernproductions.com>

Well, here it is in bubble sort, python3. I've been stuck on a long train journey all afternoon with nothing better to do. It will generate output.wav in your current directory.  It takes a random list of numbers and then progressively sorts until you get a sawtooth. 



import random, wave, array
# Jim Credland, 2013
# generate a list of random numbers and sort them, playing back as we sort


class WaveFile(): 
    def __init__(self, name): 
        self.wav = wave.open(name, "wb")
        self.wav.setnchannels(1)
        self.wav.setsampwidth(2)
        self.wav.setframerate(44100)
    def writeFloatBuffer(self,buffer):
        # output one instance of the wave
        a = array.array("h")

        for i in buffer:
            a.append(int(i * 65536 - 32767))

        print(a)
        self.wav.writeframes(a)
        self.wav.writeframes(a) # I don't know why I have to call this twice - mystery bug fix
        

class WaveTable():
    def __init__(self):
        self.buffer = []
        self.lastPosition = 0
        self.completeFlag = 0 # set after bubbleSort goes through a whole 
        self.adjusted = 0 # used for checking whether array modified during bubblesort
    def bubblesort(self):
        p = self.lastPosition
        array = self.buffer
        if array[p] > array[p+1]: 
            array[p+1], array[p] = array[p], array[p+1]
            self.adjusted = 1
        p += 1
        if p+2>array.__len__(): 
            p = 0
            if self.adjusted == 0: 
                self.completeFlag = 1
            self.adjusted = 0
        self.lastPosition = p
    def fillWithNoise(self):
        self.buffer = []
        for i in range(400):
            self.buffer.append(random.random())

##########
## BEGIN MAIN

waveTable = WaveTable()
waveTable.fillWithNoise()
wavFile = WaveFile("output.wav")

stepCount = 0
while waveTable.completeFlag == 0: 
    waveTable.bubblesort()
    stepCount += 1
    if stepCount % 256 == 0: 
        wavFile.writeFloatBuffer(waveTable.buffer)
    
print("Sorted in ", stepCount)




On 19 May 2013, at 16:30, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Jim,
> it's been quite some time since I've touched pd at all. I don't
> exactly remember what things sounded like back then.
> 
> Paul,
> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
>> I think it would probably sound like increasing amounts of static, until you get to the point of a saw. You'd be creating discontinuities in the wave, and those tend to sound like clicks.
> 
> I guess it depends which sorting algorithm we're looking at. For
> bubble sort, once you've sorted a sample, it's going to be part of a
> sawtooth, which ramps down to finally culminate in the rest of the
> wave. The rest of the wave will have less voltage than the final point
> of this sawtooth. The rest of the wave is most likely going to stay
> continuous.
> 
> I wonder what other sorting algorithms could sound like. Or other
> operations (most likely bijections) that happen on lists..
> 
> Idea: convolve slave wave by master wave..
> 
>> 
>> A counter-proposal: Take the derivative of the wave, and use that derivative to control the slope(and hence frequency) of a sawtooth.
> 
> 
> Aka VCO->HPF->VCO? :)
> 
> Cheers,
> D.
> 
> 
> 
>>> 
>>> I don't know if it would sound good, but I'm very interested.   I'm also wondering what happens if you do one iteration of a sort between each cycle of a waveform.  You could start with just noise ? it might sound like a boring waveform cross-fade, but it might not :)
>>> 
>>> How far did you get with the pure data implementation?
>>> 
>>> cheers! J.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 18 May 2013, at 09:30, "cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi guys,
>>>> I was wondering what you guys thought of this synthesis technique. Has
>>>> anyone tried this? Could it sound good?
>>>> 
>>>> Here's a chat log between me and a fellow synthesis fan.
>>>> 
>>>> have you ever tried running a waveform through a sorting algorithm?
>>>> That is, take each cycle and sort that. If you sort the waveform fully
>>>> you should get something like a saw. But you could limit the amount of
>>>> work the sorting algo can perform before the waveform cycle is
>>>> released. If you put this parameter on a knob then you could perhaps
>>>> have a somewhat-smooth transition from your current waveform to a saw
>>>> waveform.
>>>> 
>>>> I think it could even work for analogue synths, you'd just need
>>>> somewhat of a buffer
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> you could have a sampler which works like this: it has a sync input
>>>> and a wave input from a VCO. when the vco outputs sync, it starts
>>>> sampling the waveform until the next sync. Once that's done, this is
>>>> called "a wave". Now for the output. Every time a wave is sampled, it
>>>> is placed on a queue (fifo). When a vco sync happens, the output
>>>> module takes the next wave from the fifo and starts outputting it. As
>>>> long as the wave is being output, syncs can be ignored (or instead, it
>>>> could jump to the next waveform at index 0, or to the next waveform at
>>>> the same index as it currently is). If there is only one wave left in
>>>> the queue, and the device is getting sync pulses over and over, then
>>>> it could either start outputting silence, or start outputting the last
>>>> wave it had in the queue.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> this way it could work even delay-less (but would mangle the output in
>>>> a fun way)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Snd of course, while this happens the currently output waveform could
>>>> be mangled by: sorting, randomizing, sorting or shaping according to
>>>> the current waveform shape in a second sampler, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> could be fun when run on FM oscillators which change pitch.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> So what "slaving to another sampler" would mean is that, in the master
>>>> sampler you have the sorting algorithm, and it moves sample 4 to
>>>> position 1. Then the slave sampler doesn't sort its own samples,
>>>> instead it just moves sample 4 to position 1, just like the master
>>>> sampler. I think this might only work if the wave are "normalized" to
>>>> some length, or alternatively if the waves in the slave get resampled
>>>> to the length of the master, or alternatively if the waves in the
>>>> master get resampled to the length of the slave. Resampling slave to
>>>> length of master would mean we either get a nice low-pass effect (if
>>>> the resampling is band-limited) or we get frequency-dependent aliasing
>>>> (if the resampling is not band-limited). The aliasing would not change
>>>> position in an inharmonic way like it usually happens when you alias
>>>> against a static sample rate (like when recording to a low sample rate
>>>> interface); instead aliasing would add a timbral quality which would
>>>> be constant across the keyboard, and work in a musical fashion.
>>>> Because both the master and slave waveforms are sampled at the same
>>>> clock rate, this aliasing process is immune to the clock rate of the
>>>> samplers.
>>>> 
>>>> You could laso have the master send the current wave to the slave and
>>>> you could have the slave use it to wave-shape its wave with that. So
>>>> if the master has a rising saw, nothing happens, and if master has a
>>>> sine wave, then you get a sine shaper.
>>>> 
>>>> If the master sends a wave, where the voltage level of the nth sample
>>>> is instead replaced by the index it has after being sorted, then
>>>> "slave sorting" could work simply by wave-shaping the slave wave by
>>>> that master "sorting index" wave.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Of course you could have the slave have its own sampling input and
>>>> sampling sync input, but then have its *output* sync to the master's
>>>> sync input or a dedicated output-module sync input. Then if the sample
>>>> memory is really long, and the sync happens every now and then, you
>>>> could have a stutter effect.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> You could even have "markers" in the wave, which happen when a third
>>>> input is triggered. Then, once the output module get sync, rather than
>>>> jump to the beginning of the current wave it could jump back to the
>>>> latest marker or skip forward.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> And if you have a long sample memory then you can just trigger the
>>>> input sync once and have a loop play forever.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I wonder what everyone thinks of this?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is fairly similar to some of the stuff I did in Pure Data at some
>>>> point, but I've only now figured out how this could fit into the
>>>> context of a modular synth.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> D.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From thomas at pdp7.org  Sun May 19 21:21:35 2013
From: thomas at pdp7.org (Thomas Strathmann)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 21:21:35 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Oscillator sampler with sorting capabilities concept
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiixDCi+9JCAPPfaF8rzKr2zZt79-thNdLN6NHuBiL8EQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUg-1sEW7V7HZ1gokY8MRsDQs0x-jj-J9GTqX7rmTR6LOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D30D69C-E433-4615-8EA2-D3C06192EB0B@cernproductions.com>
	<FE315A18-DA48-491B-BF4C-A64410A056F5@me.com>
	<CA+9GZUiixDCi+9JCAPPfaF8rzKr2zZt79-thNdLN6NHuBiL8EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5199263F.3060405@pdp7.org>

On 19.05.13 17:30, cheater00 . wrote:
> I wonder what other sorting algorithms could sound like. Or other
> operations (most likely bijections) that happen on lists..

... and if there is a noticeable difference between stable and unstable
sorting algorithms. Also, why not try sorting networks instead of the
classic insertion, heap, merge, bubble, etc. sort?

Bijections on lists, sounds a bit like doing serial composition
techniques at the sample level. ;)

	Thomas


From thomas at pdp7.org  Sun May 19 21:28:51 2013
From: thomas at pdp7.org (Thomas Strathmann)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 21:28:51 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <2F3833EF455A42F093282B133698C942@galvanox01>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan>
	<7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01>
	<6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net>
	<2F3833EF455A42F093282B133698C942@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <519927F3.1020403@pdp7.org>

On 19.05.13 18:30, David G Dixon wrote:
> The physical making of the board is trivially easy once you have a system in
> place.  It may take a few minutes longer than stuffing a breadboard, but
> then you have a permanent circuit.

You forget that one also needs enough room to work with chemicals and a
drill press. That's not a given.

	Thomas


From music.maker at gte.net  Sun May 19 21:57:39 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 12:57:39 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
Message-ID: <201305191957.r4JJvc7k025565@linux7.lan>


Thomas Strathmann <thomas at pdp7.org> wrote:
>On 19.05.13 18:30, David G Dixon wrote:
>> The physical making of the board is trivially easy once you have a system in
>> place.  It may take a few minutes longer than stuffing a breadboard, but
>> then you have a permanent circuit.
>
>You forget that one also needs enough room to work with chemicals and a
>drill press. That's not a given.
>
>	Thomas

And in some parts of the world, you can't just dump such chemicals down the drain.

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From ijfritz at comcast.net  Sun May 19 22:04:33 2013
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 14:04:33 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks  on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <519927F3.1020403@pdp7.org>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan>
	<7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01>
	<6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net>
	<2F3833EF455A42F093282B133698C942@galvanox01>
	<519927F3.1020403@pdp7.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20130519140316.028b01b0@mail.comcast.net>

At 01:28 PM 5/19/2013, Thomas Strathmann wrote:
>On 19.05.13 18:30, David G Dixon wrote:
> > The physical making of the board is trivially easy once you have a 
> system in
> > place.  It may take a few minutes longer than stuffing a breadboard, but
> > then you have a permanent circuit.
>
>You forget that one also needs enough room to work with chemicals and a
>drill press. That's not a given.

Plus all that, you have to know beforehand that the circuit will work 
properly.  Which brings us right back to the whiteboard.

Ian 



From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Sun May 19 22:10:39 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 13:10:39 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <201305191957.r4JJvc7k025565@linux7.lan>
References: <201305191957.r4JJvc7k025565@linux7.lan>
Message-ID: <BB6A032B-A029-4A60-B2DC-133968F59221@earthlink.net>

I use wire wrap and dip headers for analog parts.

I built the drumulator and emulator 2 mostly this way.

Not the best but stitch wire is more expensive.

Still the net list can be input to a pcb tool.

Terry

Sent from my iPad

On May 19, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Scott Gravenhorst <music.maker at gte.net> wrote:

> 
> Thomas Strathmann <thomas at pdp7.org> wrote:
>> On 19.05.13 18:30, David G Dixon wrote:
>>> The physical making of the board is trivially easy once you have a system in
>>> place.  It may take a few minutes longer than stuffing a breadboard, but
>>> then you have a permanent circuit.
>> 
>> You forget that one also needs enough room to work with chemicals and a
>> drill press. That's not a given.
>> 
>>    Thomas
> 
> And in some parts of the world, you can't just dump such chemicals down the drain.
> 
> -- ScottG
> ________________________________________________________________________
> -- Scott Gravenhorst
> -- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
> -- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
> -- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
> -- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Sun May 19 23:27:50 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 17:27:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	---> was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
	<---
Message-ID: <000301ce54d7$b70234c0$25069e40$@oricom.ca>

It's funny to see HOW FAR the list can go from what my initial question
was..
A. Majorel gave me some clue but.. but still not answered...

> I know this could be a silly question but I was wondering if there was 
> any 'standard' on minimum spacing to respect between 1/4" jacks on 
> DOTCOM modules ??
> I mean center to center spacing..
> I'm building a 2U width DOTCOM audio mixer module that could have 2 
> rows of 4 or 5 jacks side by side horizontaly at the bottom...

Any standards.. ???

JP

-----Message d'origine-----
De?: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] De la part de Terry Shultz
Envoy??: 19 mai 2013 16:11
??: music.maker at gte.net
Cc?: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Objet?: Re: [sdiy] breadboard, was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on
DOTCOM modules..

I use wire wrap and dip headers for analog parts.

I built the drumulator and emulator 2 mostly this way.

Not the best but stitch wire is more expensive.

Still the net list can be input to a pcb tool.

Terry

Sent from my iPad

On May 19, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Scott Gravenhorst <music.maker at gte.net> wrote:

> 
> Thomas Strathmann <thomas at pdp7.org> wrote:
>> On 19.05.13 18:30, David G Dixon wrote:
>>> The physical making of the board is trivially easy once you have a 
>>> system in place.  It may take a few minutes longer than stuffing a 
>>> breadboard, but then you have a permanent circuit.
>> 
>> You forget that one also needs enough room to work with chemicals and 
>> a drill press. That's not a given.
>> 
>>    Thomas
> 
> And in some parts of the world, you can't just dump such chemicals down
the drain.
> 
> -- ScottG
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __
> -- Scott Gravenhorst
> -- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
> -- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
> -- Some Random Electronics Bits: 
> jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
> -- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From davebr at earthlink.net  Mon May 20 02:03:12 2013
From: davebr at earthlink.net (Dave Brown)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 17:03:12 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Buchla 266 Source of Uncertainty
Message-ID: <000001ce54ed$6bc5cab0$43516010$@earthlink.net>

I just finished building the Roman Filippov Buchla 266 Source Of Uncertainty
PCBs.  I haven't assembled the module yet but fully validated both PCBs.  I
never have seen a good explanation of what the controls and outputs really
do.  It is pretty interesting.  SRV2 has high gain and level shifting with a
+/-5V wavefolder to keep the output within 0 to 10 volts.  The QRV control
varies the number of bits in the QRV DACs from 1 to 6 bits.  All 6 functions
of this module have scope images and descriptions.

I made modifications for 5V inputs and outputs.  There are a lot of scope
images on my webpage which starts at
http://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla266/266sou.htm .  I have a separate
page for each PCB.

Enjoy.

David J. Brown
Email davebr at earthlink.net
Website http://modularsynthesis.com






From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Mon May 20 04:43:22 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 19:43:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <519927F3.1020403@pdp7.org>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan><7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01><6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net><2F3833EF455A42F093282B133698C942@galvanox01>
	<519927F3.1020403@pdp7.org>
Message-ID: <09D3D3310F8948DDAB399B1853581BF3@galvanox01>

> You forget that one also needs enough room to work with 
> chemicals and a drill press. That's not a given.

My etching kit is a 6" x 9" pyrex dish in the laundry-room basin.  My drill
press is a Ryoki table-top model.  I keep it on a little rolling IKEA
cabinet that used to be in our kitchen.



From elektrodwarf at yahoo.se  Mon May 20 05:24:59 2013
From: elektrodwarf at yahoo.se (Karl Ekdahl)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 04:24:59 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <09D3D3310F8948DDAB399B1853581BF3@galvanox01>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan><7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01><6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net><2F3833EF455A42F093282B133698C942@galvanox01>
	<519927F3.1020403@pdp7.org>
	<09D3D3310F8948DDAB399B1853581BF3@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <1369020299.34306.YahooMailNeo@web172704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

I also find breadboard to be far easier than dealing with making circuit boards (drilling holes for 10-20 quad opamps sounds like an absolute nightmare).

I go directly from schematic to one-pad-per-hole and do all the layout on the fly, it's quick, easy to modify and you can test each sub-part individually by simply separating the power for each part and not connect them until the end.

I think though that mostly it's a matter of what you enjoy doing. I personally don't enjoy cooking acid baths and drilling but i find soldering quite relaxing so my choice is easy :)


Karl



----- Ursprungligt meddelande ----
Fr?n: David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca>
Till: 'Thomas Strathmann' <thomas at pdp7.org>; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Kopia: 
Skickat: s?ndag, 19 maj 2013 22:43
?mne: Re: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..

> You forget that one also needs enough room to work with 
> chemicals and a drill press. That's not a given.

My etching kit is a 6" x 9" pyrex dish in the laundry-room basin.? My drill
press is a Ryoki table-top model.? I keep it on a little rolling IKEA
cabinet that used to be in our kitchen.

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Mon May 20 05:35:13 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 20:35:13 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <1369020299.34306.YahooMailNeo@web172704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan><7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01><6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net><2F3833EF455A42F093282B133698C942@galvanox01><519927F3.1020403@pdp7.org><09D3D3310F8948DDAB399B1853581BF3@galvanox01>
	<1369020299.34306.YahooMailNeo@web172704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <69904964CC74466996541040FC0BF0FE@galvanox01>

> I also find breadboard to be far easier than dealing with 
> making circuit boards (drilling holes for 10-20 quad opamps 
> sounds like an absolute nightmare).

Like anything else, with the proper tools its a snap.  The key is to create
tiny little holes in the centre of your pads in the layout which are etched
away.  These holes act as guides of the drill bit, so your aim doesn't need
to be perfect.  However, with a drill press and some fine numbered drill
bits (I use #68 for most holes), you can drill 100 holes very quickly,
especially on my layouts, which conform to a strict 0.1" grid.



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Mon May 20 10:02:25 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 10:02:25 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <69904964CC74466996541040FC0BF0FE@galvanox01>
References: <201305191507.r4JF7Pww032609@linux7.lan>
	<7E63B108AAA04299BDF1A388F4ED6252@galvanox01>
	<6B32022D-1053-48F2-AD5C-86F367964D77@electricdruid.net>
	<2F3833EF455A42F093282B133698C942@galvanox01>
	<519927F3.1020403@pdp7.org>
	<09D3D3310F8948DDAB399B1853581BF3@galvanox01>
	<1369020299.34306.YahooMailNeo@web172704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
	<69904964CC74466996541040FC0BF0FE@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgnYL=NETvpLaNhejrNR1zQTZHi4_UmVn2WK42fo9=AQA@mail.gmail.com>

Even if I don't have the space for that, I think David is making a
good argument for his method.


What about different solderless breadboards - has anyone noticed
differences? Why do some cost so much more than the others?

Cheers,
D.

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:35 AM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> I also find breadboard to be far easier than dealing with
>> making circuit boards (drilling holes for 10-20 quad opamps
>> sounds like an absolute nightmare).
>
> Like anything else, with the proper tools its a snap.  The key is to create
> tiny little holes in the centre of your pads in the layout which are etched
> away.  These holes act as guides of the drill bit, so your aim doesn't need
> to be perfect.  However, with a drill press and some fine numbered drill
> bits (I use #68 for most holes), you can drill 100 holes very quickly,
> especially on my layouts, which conform to a strict 0.1" grid.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Mon May 20 16:31:50 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 16:31:50 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgGsCPcOz8ZiJF7mBgRm8CbM8Lgv4uVhCw-pWYtLdThrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tom,

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> Seems to me breadboards fall into two camps - rows parallel to rails (like above), and rows perpendicular to rails. The second style gives you a long linear workspace with ICs parallel to the rails. The first style gives you blocks of work space with chips vertical in each block. I started off with the second style and in recent years have got used to the first. Both are workable and have advantages and disadvantages.


I've had a closer look into what's available. By rows parallel to
rails do you mean something like this radioshack board?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiqNaSPTI7w&feature=player_detailpage#t=335s

by rows perpendicular to rails I guess you mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiqNaSPTI7w&feature=player_detailpage#t=314s

>From what I've seen breadboards are modular so you can put power rails
where you like - so you can have a lot of "blocks" like you say, and
then rails just here and there, or at the very top. You could use the
top two "rows" in each breadboard segment, tie them together with red,
yellow, and black, and have power rails on top this way.. Am I missing
something?

Cheers,
D.

> On 18 May 2013, at 11:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Andre, what breadboard do you use there?
>>
>> Can you guys suggest good breadboards to use for audio?
>>
>> Of course I am not dreaming of a breadboard that would be acceptable
>> for designing VCOs.. but maybe filters or preamps or low-freq digital
>> stuff?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>


From tom at electricdruid.net  Mon May 20 17:05:13 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 16:05:13 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
	was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUgGsCPcOz8ZiJF7mBgRm8CbM8Lgv4uVhCw-pWYtLdThrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
	<CA+9GZUgGsCPcOz8ZiJF7mBgRm8CbM8Lgv4uVhCw-pWYtLdThrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83C9C410-E48D-4891-8F1A-03C29858A5AD@electricdruid.net>


On 20 May 2013, at 15:31, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Tom,
> 
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>> Seems to me breadboards fall into two camps - rows parallel to rails (like above), and rows perpendicular to rails. The second style gives you a long linear workspace with ICs parallel to the rails. The first style gives you blocks of work space with chips vertical in each block. I started off with the second style and in recent years have got used to the first. Both are workable and have advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> 
> I've had a closer look into what's available. By rows parallel to
> rails do you mean something like this radioshack board?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiqNaSPTI7w&feature=player_detailpage#t=335s
> 
> by rows perpendicular to rails I guess you mean this?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiqNaSPTI7w&feature=player_detailpage#t=314s

Yes, exactly.

> From what I've seen breadboards are modular so you can put power rails
> where you like - so you can have a lot of "blocks" like you say, and
> then rails just here and there, or at the very top. You could use the
> top two "rows" in each breadboard segment, tie them together with red,
> yellow, and black, and have power rails on top this way.. Am I missing
> something?

No, you're right, they are often modular. You could get the bits and organise to taste as you suggest.

But most manufacturers offer larger boards made from a load of modules screwed to a baseplate, and whilst I was writing my first mail, it occurred to me that there were two ways of organising those that I'd seen. I don't think it's a vital distinction - it just struck me at the time, that's all.

Tom





From cheater00 at gmail.com  Mon May 20 17:24:04 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 17:24:04 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] breadboard,
 was: Minimum spacing between 1/4" jacks on DOTCOM modules..
In-Reply-To: <83C9C410-E48D-4891-8F1A-03C29858A5AD@electricdruid.net>
References: <CA+9GZUhF-Wt0ZApFP8wv6btqHzVUQDO+d1xh17c7Qkb4dA9o6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EFC8606-6E2B-4BE8-9C63-6E09F6507519@electricdruid.net>
	<CA+9GZUgGsCPcOz8ZiJF7mBgRm8CbM8Lgv4uVhCw-pWYtLdThrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<83C9C410-E48D-4891-8F1A-03C29858A5AD@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiFs96h9xmvqavK3XOULzzfY_M4aJ-TmZ6G1Qe1-aXH4g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for clarifying, Tom!

Do your boards have silver contacts?

Cheers,
D.

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>
> On 20 May 2013, at 15:31, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>>> Seems to me breadboards fall into two camps - rows parallel to rails (like above), and rows perpendicular to rails. The second style gives you a long linear workspace with ICs parallel to the rails. The first style gives you blocks of work space with chips vertical in each block. I started off with the second style and in recent years have got used to the first. Both are workable and have advantages and disadvantages.
>>
>>
>> I've had a closer look into what's available. By rows parallel to
>> rails do you mean something like this radioshack board?
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiqNaSPTI7w&feature=player_detailpage#t=335s
>>
>> by rows perpendicular to rails I guess you mean this?
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiqNaSPTI7w&feature=player_detailpage#t=314s
>
> Yes, exactly.
>
>> From what I've seen breadboards are modular so you can put power rails
>> where you like - so you can have a lot of "blocks" like you say, and
>> then rails just here and there, or at the very top. You could use the
>> top two "rows" in each breadboard segment, tie them together with red,
>> yellow, and black, and have power rails on top this way.. Am I missing
>> something?
>
> No, you're right, they are often modular. You could get the bits and organise to taste as you suggest.
>
> But most manufacturers offer larger boards made from a load of modules screwed to a baseplate, and whilst I was writing my first mail, it occurred to me that there were two ways of organising those that I'd seen. I don't think it's a vital distinction - it just struck me at the time, that's all.
>
> Tom
>
>
>


From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Tue May 21 11:50:29 2013
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 11:50:29 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Resistor math
Message-ID: <CB5A6765-4676-42D0-B5DD-F1D629BB29CD@gmail.com>

Hi all,

I need a little help calculating values for a network of precision resistors. The resistors are used for summing several signals with different weights (1x 2x 4x 12x, etc). Summing is done at the virtual ground of an inverting opamp. I've used 100K in the feedbackloop of the opamp, so to weight one of the inputs with 1x a resistor of 100K is normally used, and 50K for 2x and 25K for 4x. However... there is an analog switch in between the summing network and the inverting input of the opamp, with a typical ON-resistance of 40ohms. My question is, how does this affect the values that should be used for the summing network? And how to compute new values for those resistors that assure summation with the exact weights I need (and how to implement those with limited values available in a series of 0.1% tolerance precision resistors)?

Here's an overview of the summing network:

--1xresistor----|
--2xresistor----|
--4xresistor----|-----analog switch----inverting opamp---
--12xresistor--|

Any help is appreciated!

Rutger

From tom at electricdruid.net  Tue May 21 12:53:55 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 11:53:55 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Digital Oscillators
Message-ID: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>

Hi All,

It seems to me we've seen a shift in the last few years. I think digital has started to be accepted in the modular world. I was compiling a list of digital oscillators:

Synthesis Technology	E350 Morphing Terrarium		Dual Wavetable oscillator
Doepfer					A-112						Sampler / Wavetable Oscillator
The Harvestman			Piston Honda				Wavetable oscillator
The Harvestman			Hertz Donut					Dual digital oscillator
Modcan					FMVDO						Two-Operator FM Digital Oscillator
Modcan					Dual Wave					Dual numerically controlled oscillator
Modcan					Triple OSC					Triple VCO
Frequency Central		Waverider					Wavetable Digital VCO
WMD					Gamma Wave Source			Dual digital VCO
Greg Surges				tabulaRasa					DIY hybrid digital wavetable oscillator.


I'm sure there's others, but it wasn't long ago these were rare as hen's teeth. And it's not just oscillators - there's no end of modulators and envelopes and stuff too. As well as a real analog revival, we're also seeing new devices bringing digital technology to the modular, and coupling the classic analog interface with software behind the panel.

These are exciting times for Synth DIY!

Tom





From paul at fitvideo.co.uk  Tue May 21 13:37:28 2013
From: paul at fitvideo.co.uk (Paul Burns)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 12:37:28 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Digital Oscillators
In-Reply-To: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
References: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <001b01ce5617$94330050$bc9900f0$@fitvideo.co.uk>

Mutable Instruments forthcoming Braids is of great interest
https://soundcloud.com/mutable-instruments/braids-demo

regards

Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Tom Wiltshire
Sent: 21 May 2013 11:54
To: synthdiy diy
Subject: [sdiy] Digital Oscillators

Hi All,

It seems to me we've seen a shift in the last few years. I think digital has
started to be accepted in the modular world. I was compiling a list of
digital oscillators:

Synthesis Technology	E350 Morphing Terrarium		Dual Wavetable
oscillator
Doepfer					A-112
Sampler / Wavetable Oscillator
The Harvestman			Piston Honda
Wavetable oscillator
The Harvestman			Hertz Donut
Dual digital oscillator
Modcan					FMVDO
Two-Operator FM Digital Oscillator
Modcan					Dual Wave
Dual numerically controlled oscillator
Modcan					Triple OSC
Triple VCO
Frequency Central		Waverider
Wavetable Digital VCO
WMD					Gamma Wave Source
Dual digital VCO
Greg Surges				tabulaRasa
DIY hybrid digital wavetable oscillator.


I'm sure there's others, but it wasn't long ago these were rare as hen's
teeth. And it's not just oscillators - there's no end of modulators and
envelopes and stuff too. As well as a real analog revival, we're also seeing
new devices bringing digital technology to the modular, and coupling the
classic analog interface with software behind the panel.

These are exciting times for Synth DIY!

Tom



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From info at synthcube.com  Tue May 21 13:53:42 2013
From: info at synthcube.com (SynthCube)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 07:53:42 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Digital Oscillators
In-Reply-To: <001b01ce5617$94330050$bc9900f0$@fitvideo.co.uk>
References: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
	<001b01ce5617$94330050$bc9900f0$@fitvideo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7695102E-10CF-482C-91EB-CC70AD2D7BC4@synthcube.com>

There's also the sdiy Dual Digital Oscillator (Peter Tomsson) coming out, and Michael Barton continues working on some very interesting digitally based circuits . Definitely an interesting time in sdiy, especially with the uptake in euro format sdiy builders. 



On May 21, 2013, at 7:37 AM, "Paul Burns" <paul at fitvideo.co.uk> wrote:

> Mutable Instruments forthcoming Braids is of great interest
> https://soundcloud.com/mutable-instruments/braids-demo
> 
> regards
> 
> Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Tom Wiltshire
> Sent: 21 May 2013 11:54
> To: synthdiy diy
> Subject: [sdiy] Digital Oscillators
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> It seems to me we've seen a shift in the last few years. I think digital has
> started to be accepted in the modular world. I was compiling a list of
> digital oscillators:
> 
> Synthesis Technology    E350 Morphing Terrarium        Dual Wavetable
> oscillator
> Doepfer                    A-112
> Sampler / Wavetable Oscillator
> The Harvestman            Piston Honda
> Wavetable oscillator
> The Harvestman            Hertz Donut
> Dual digital oscillator
> Modcan                    FMVDO
> Two-Operator FM Digital Oscillator
> Modcan                    Dual Wave
> Dual numerically controlled oscillator
> Modcan                    Triple OSC
> Triple VCO
> Frequency Central        Waverider
> Wavetable Digital VCO
> WMD                    Gamma Wave Source
> Dual digital VCO
> Greg Surges                tabulaRasa
> DIY hybrid digital wavetable oscillator.
> 
> 
> I'm sure there's others, but it wasn't long ago these were rare as hen's
> teeth. And it's not just oscillators - there's no end of modulators and
> envelopes and stuff too. As well as a real analog revival, we're also seeing
> new devices bringing digital technology to the modular, and coupling the
> classic analog interface with software behind the panel.
> 
> These are exciting times for Synth DIY!
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

Chris Park

On May 21, 2013, at 7:37 AM, "Paul Burns" <paul at fitvideo.co.uk> wrote:

> Mutable Instruments forthcoming Braids is of great interest
> https://soundcloud.com/mutable-instruments/braids-demo
> 
> regards
> 
> Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Tom Wiltshire
> Sent: 21 May 2013 11:54
> To: synthdiy diy
> Subject: [sdiy] Digital Oscillators
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> It seems to me we've seen a shift in the last few years. I think digital has
> started to be accepted in the modular world. I was compiling a list of
> digital oscillators:
> 
> Synthesis Technology    E350 Morphing Terrarium        Dual Wavetable
> oscillator
> Doepfer                    A-112
> Sampler / Wavetable Oscillator
> The Harvestman            Piston Honda
> Wavetable oscillator
> The Harvestman            Hertz Donut
> Dual digital oscillator
> Modcan                    FMVDO
> Two-Operator FM Digital Oscillator
> Modcan                    Dual Wave
> Dual numerically controlled oscillator
> Modcan                    Triple OSC
> Triple VCO
> Frequency Central        Waverider
> Wavetable Digital VCO
> WMD                    Gamma Wave Source
> Dual digital VCO
> Greg Surges                tabulaRasa
> DIY hybrid digital wavetable oscillator.
> 
> 
> I'm sure there's others, but it wasn't long ago these were rare as hen's
> teeth. And it's not just oscillators - there's no end of modulators and
> envelopes and stuff too. As well as a real analog revival, we're also seeing
> new devices bringing digital technology to the modular, and coupling the
> classic analog interface with software behind the panel.
> 
> These are exciting times for Synth DIY!
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From jdelgoulet at free.fr  Tue May 21 14:12:07 2013
From: jdelgoulet at free.fr (Julien Delgoulet)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 14:12:07 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Resistor math
In-Reply-To: <CB5A6765-4676-42D0-B5DD-F1D629BB29CD@gmail.com>
References: <CB5A6765-4676-42D0-B5DD-F1D629BB29CD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6C751F67-5B1E-4465-A7F4-9329883E70A3@free.fr>

Hum ?

Have you checked this pdf : 

http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee122/Parts_Info/datasheets/op_amp_circuit%20collection_AN-31.pdf
Your circuit is the "Inverting Summing Amplifier", a classic one.
Also if you are using an analog switch to "select" inputs, may be you could use an analog switch to select the resistor in the feedback loop of the opamp ?

My 2 cents ..

Julien


Le 21 mai 2013 ? 11:50, Rutger Vlek <rutgervlek at gmail.com> a ?crit :

> Hi all,
> 
> I need a little help calculating values for a network of precision resistors. The resistors are used for summing several signals with different weights (1x 2x 4x 12x, etc). Summing is done at the virtual ground of an inverting opamp. I've used 100K in the feedbackloop of the opamp, so to weight one of the inputs with 1x a resistor of 100K is normally used, and 50K for 2x and 25K for 4x. However... there is an analog switch in between the summing network and the inverting input of the opamp, with a typical ON-resistance of 40ohms. My question is, how does this affect the values that should be used for the summing network? And how to compute new values for those resistors that assure summation with the exact weights I need (and how to implement those with limited values available in a series of 0.1% tolerance precision resistors)?
> 
> Here's an overview of the summing network:
> 
> --1xresistor----|
> --2xresistor----|
> --4xresistor----|-----analog switch----inverting opamp---
> --12xresistor--|
> 
> Any help is appreciated!
> 
> Rutger
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Tue May 21 14:35:01 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:35:01 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Digital Oscillators
In-Reply-To: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
References: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP207BAC064E1D2004658A7A6C8A80@phx.gbl>

It is a great time for analog and digital!
About 1/3 of the modules I own are digital.


Dont forget the Snazzy FX Ardcore!
It has digital vcos, lfos , envelopes, etc
;) and is programmable via usb

Sent from my iPhone

On May 21, 2013, at 6:53 AM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> It seems to me we've seen a shift in the last few years. I think digital has started to be accepted in the modular world. I was compiling a list of digital oscillators:
> 
> Synthesis Technology    E350 Morphing Terrarium        Dual Wavetable oscillator
> Doepfer                    A-112                        Sampler / Wavetable Oscillator
> The Harvestman            Piston Honda                Wavetable oscillator
> The Harvestman            Hertz Donut                    Dual digital oscillator
> Modcan                    FMVDO                        Two-Operator FM Digital Oscillator
> Modcan                    Dual Wave                    Dual numerically controlled oscillator
> Modcan                    Triple OSC                    Triple VCO
> Frequency Central        Waverider                    Wavetable Digital VCO
> WMD                    Gamma Wave Source            Dual digital VCO
> Greg Surges                tabulaRasa                    DIY hybrid digital wavetable oscillator.
> 
> 
> I'm sure there's others, but it wasn't long ago these were rare as hen's teeth. And it's not just oscillators - there's no end of modulators and envelopes and stuff too. As well as a real analog revival, we're also seeing new devices bringing digital technology to the modular, and coupling the classic analog interface with software behind the panel.
> 
> These are exciting times for Synth DIY!
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Tue May 21 16:33:26 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 10:33:26 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>

Any ideas/experiences related to getting phantom power from a +/- 12v or 15v+/-supply??

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone

From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May 21 16:40:02 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 16:40:02 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dan,
not really worth it, especially with modern mics, that take a lot of
current on phantom. Get a real PSU.

D.

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Dan Snazelle <subjectivity at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Any ideas/experiences related to getting phantom power from a +/- 12v or 15v+/-supply??
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From barryklein at cox.net  Tue May 21 16:59:59 2013
From: barryklein at cox.net (Barry Klein)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 07:59:59 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001ce5633$dd87d2f0$989778d0$@cox.net>

http://www.ti.com/tool/pmp4634#Technical Documents  

?


-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of cheater00 .
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 07:40
To: Dan Snazelle
Cc: synthdiy diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??

Hi Dan,
not really worth it, especially with modern mics, that take a lot of
current on phantom. Get a real PSU.

D.

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Dan Snazelle <subjectivity at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Any ideas/experiences related to getting phantom power from a +/- 12v or
15v+/-supply??
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Tue May 21 17:31:35 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (dan snazelle)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 11:31:35 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>



On May 21, 2013, at 10:40 AM, cheater00 . wrote:

> Hi Dan,
> not really worth it, especially with modern mics, that take a lot of
> current on phantom. Get a real PSU.
> 
> D.
> 
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Dan Snazelle <subjectivity at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Any ideas/experiences related to getting phantom power from a +/- 12v or 15v+/-supply??
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
OK

so if I go the real direction....I have really only made +/- 12v supplies before..I have never needed higher voltage

So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?

one with +/- 48volt taps?
thanks for any help



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Tue May 21 17:44:24 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:44:24 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Digital Oscillators
In-Reply-To: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
References: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <EC505770DE6E48668BAA7413E3ED70A8@galvanox01>

Also, don't forget:

Cylonix	Cyclebox	Wavetable Oscillator

Designed by Professor Jim Clark from Montreal.  The new version, Cylonix II,
is now made by Intellijel here in Vancouver.



From mars at pingdynasty.com  Tue May 21 17:50:47 2013
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 16:50:47 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>


On 21 May 2013, at 16:31, dan snazelle wrote:

> So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?

what you need is something like a buck-boost converter, like the one Barry linked to.

hth,

/m

From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May 21 17:52:07 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 17:52:07 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
	<0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhEQRbEnpHqkM0QF6t3MxdtceE7aLgMsBHC0Aor3zE7Lw@mail.gmail.com>

Not the best idea if you want a lot of current.. don't do it, just say NO!

If you want 48v DC then you need 0 and some AC voltage a bit above 48,
so that the regulator has something to work off.

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>
> On 21 May 2013, at 16:31, dan snazelle wrote:
>
>> So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?
>
> what you need is something like a buck-boost converter, like the one Barry linked to.
>
> hth,
>
> /m


From tom at electricdruid.net  Tue May 21 18:44:42 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 17:44:42 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhEQRbEnpHqkM0QF6t3MxdtceE7aLgMsBHC0Aor3zE7Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
	<0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>
	<CA+9GZUhEQRbEnpHqkM0QF6t3MxdtceE7aLgMsBHC0Aor3zE7Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB63BDF1-DDB7-4142-82B4-56515235C56B@electricdruid.net>


It depends how much current we're really talking about here. "A lot" doesn't really give us a spec to work with.
A bit of a search turned this up:

"2 mA is not even very much by modern standards. A Neumann TLM 103 draws 3 mA; Schoeps CMC 5-- and 6-- microphones draw about 4.5 mA; Shure KSM-series mikes typically draw 5.5 mA; many CAD Equiteks draw 8 mA. The maximum allowable current per microphone is 10 mA, at which point the voltage at the microphone will have dropped to a mere 14 Volts or so--more power is dissipated in the phantom resistors than is available to be used by the microphone! But there are some highly regarded Earthworks microphones which draw that much current, for example."

from http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?7362-Phantom-Power-Current-Draw-in-New-Mics

That suggests you might be looking at 10mA as a reasonable top end. I'd have thought that's ok for a buck-boost, but I haven't checked the specs of those. Noise from a switched convertor would be more of a worry for me, since we're going to be pre-amping some small signal coming out of this mic and any noise along with it.

HTH,
Tom


On 21 May 2013, at 16:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not the best idea if you want a lot of current.. don't do it, just say NO!
> 
> If you want 48v DC then you need 0 and some AC voltage a bit above 48,
> so that the regulator has something to work off.
> 
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:31, dan snazelle wrote:
>> 
>>> So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?
>> 
>> what you need is something like a buck-boost converter, like the one Barry linked to.
>> 
>> hth,
>> 
>> /m
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From tom at electricdruid.net  Tue May 21 18:58:23 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 17:58:23 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <DB63BDF1-DDB7-4142-82B4-56515235C56B@electricdruid.net>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
	<0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>
	<CA+9GZUhEQRbEnpHqkM0QF6t3MxdtceE7aLgMsBHC0Aor3zE7Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DB63BDF1-DDB7-4142-82B4-56515235C56B@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CB13CB2C-47E2-4D3B-B284-AFEE5FAF7D3A@electricdruid.net>

Alternatively, this website suggests "14mA per mic" as the guideline to use when designing power supplies for phantom power:

http://www.tangible-technology.com/power/phantom_aug02.htm

Similar ballpark.

T.

On 21 May 2013, at 17:44, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:

> 
> It depends how much current we're really talking about here. "A lot" doesn't really give us a spec to work with.
> A bit of a search turned this up:
> 
> "2 mA is not even very much by modern standards. A Neumann TLM 103 draws 3 mA; Schoeps CMC 5-- and 6-- microphones draw about 4.5 mA; Shure KSM-series mikes typically draw 5.5 mA; many CAD Equiteks draw 8 mA. The maximum allowable current per microphone is 10 mA, at which point the voltage at the microphone will have dropped to a mere 14 Volts or so--more power is dissipated in the phantom resistors than is available to be used by the microphone! But there are some highly regarded Earthworks microphones which draw that much current, for example."
> 
> from http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?7362-Phantom-Power-Current-Draw-in-New-Mics
> 
> That suggests you might be looking at 10mA as a reasonable top end. I'd have thought that's ok for a buck-boost, but I haven't checked the specs of those. Noise from a switched convertor would be more of a worry for me, since we're going to be pre-amping some small signal coming out of this mic and any noise along with it.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom
> 
> 
> On 21 May 2013, at 16:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Not the best idea if you want a lot of current.. don't do it, just say NO!
>> 
>> If you want 48v DC then you need 0 and some AC voltage a bit above 48,
>> so that the regulator has something to work off.
>> 
>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:31, dan snazelle wrote:
>>> 
>>>> So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?
>>> 
>>> what you need is something like a buck-boost converter, like the one Barry linked to.
>>> 
>>> hth,
>>> 
>>> /m
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May 21 19:31:17 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 19:31:17 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <CB13CB2C-47E2-4D3B-B284-AFEE5FAF7D3A@electricdruid.net>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
	<0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>
	<CA+9GZUhEQRbEnpHqkM0QF6t3MxdtceE7aLgMsBHC0Aor3zE7Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DB63BDF1-DDB7-4142-82B4-56515235C56B@electricdruid.net>
	<CB13CB2C-47E2-4D3B-B284-AFEE5FAF7D3A@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhSLKMPNDSVC70PnD-c3-XdShL2+dszJ7N0=ZmC0AS07A@mail.gmail.com>

Right Tom, the question is if he's going to power one microphone, or 32 :)

D.

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> Alternatively, this website suggests "14mA per mic" as the guideline to use when designing power supplies for phantom power:
>
> http://www.tangible-technology.com/power/phantom_aug02.htm
>
> Similar ballpark.
>
> T.
>
> On 21 May 2013, at 17:44, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> It depends how much current we're really talking about here. "A lot" doesn't really give us a spec to work with.
>> A bit of a search turned this up:
>>
>> "2 mA is not even very much by modern standards. A Neumann TLM 103 draws 3 mA; Schoeps CMC 5-- and 6-- microphones draw about 4.5 mA; Shure KSM-series mikes typically draw 5.5 mA; many CAD Equiteks draw 8 mA. The maximum allowable current per microphone is 10 mA, at which point the voltage at the microphone will have dropped to a mere 14 Volts or so--more power is dissipated in the phantom resistors than is available to be used by the microphone! But there are some highly regarded Earthworks microphones which draw that much current, for example."
>>
>> from http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?7362-Phantom-Power-Current-Draw-in-New-Mics
>>
>> That suggests you might be looking at 10mA as a reasonable top end. I'd have thought that's ok for a buck-boost, but I haven't checked the specs of those. Noise from a switched convertor would be more of a worry for me, since we're going to be pre-amping some small signal coming out of this mic and any noise along with it.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not the best idea if you want a lot of current.. don't do it, just say NO!
>>>
>>> If you want 48v DC then you need 0 and some AC voltage a bit above 48,
>>> so that the regulator has something to work off.
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:31, dan snazelle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?
>>>>
>>>> what you need is something like a buck-boost converter, like the one Barry linked to.
>>>>
>>>> hth,
>>>>
>>>> /m
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From panfilero at hotmail.com  Tue May 21 19:53:04 2013
From: panfilero at hotmail.com (Monse Lozano)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 17:53:04 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
Message-ID: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>

This is my first post to the email list, hopefully it goes through


I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate some audio synth type circuits into the class. ?I was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions for cool noise making projects? ?I'm not very familiar with synthesizer design, I've been reading up on it a bit and started putting together a simple sawtooth generator, the one with an integrator and a comparator, where the output ramps up until the comparator shorts the integrator's cap and discharges it. ?I'm looking for simple circuits like this, I'm not worried about correcting non-linearities or temperature compensation, just noise makers to get the kids interested. ?

much thanks! 		 	   		  

From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Tue May 21 19:57:55 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 10:57:55 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <18B46190117D44FAABA81A55ED242941@galvanox01>

Very worthy project, Monse.  Please check out this website (known
colloquially as MFOS):

www.musicfromouterspace.com

I'm sure there will be tonnes of stuff there that you can use for the class.
Perhaps they can collaboratively build an MFOS Weird Sound Generator.


> I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th 
> graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate 
> some audio synth type circuits into the class. ?I was 
> wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions for cool 
> noise making projects? ?I'm not very familiar with 
> synthesizer design, I've been reading up on it a bit and 
> started putting together a simple sawtooth generator, the one 
> with an integrator and a comparator, where the output ramps 
> up until the comparator shorts the integrator's cap and 
> discharges it. ?I'm looking for simple circuits like this, 
> I'm not worried about correcting non-linearities or 
> temperature compensation, just noise makers to get the kids 
> interested. ?



From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Tue May 21 19:58:30 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 13:58:30 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <DB63BDF1-DDB7-4142-82B4-56515235C56B@electricdruid.net>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
	<0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>
	<CA+9GZUhEQRbEnpHqkM0QF6t3MxdtceE7aLgMsBHC0Aor3zE7Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DB63BDF1-DDB7-4142-82B4-56515235C56B@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP2120EBA0E51FD3B40CA7055C8A80@phx.gbl>

This is to power 2 mics in a rack

I was thinking a dc to dc type circuit would provide ample current


Thanks!!!!

Sent from my iPhone

On May 21, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:

> 
> It depends how much current we're really talking about here. "A lot" doesn't really give us a spec to work with.
> A bit of a search turned this up:
> 
> "2 mA is not even very much by modern standards. A Neumann TLM 103 draws 3 mA; Schoeps CMC 5-- and 6-- microphones draw about 4.5 mA; Shure KSM-series mikes typically draw 5.5 mA; many CAD Equiteks draw 8 mA. The maximum allowable current per microphone is 10 mA, at which point the voltage at the microphone will have dropped to a mere 14 Volts or so--more power is dissipated in the phantom resistors than is available to be used by the microphone! But there are some highly regarded Earthworks microphones which draw that much current, for example."
> 
> from http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?7362-Phantom-Power-Current-Draw-in-New-Mics
> 
> That suggests you might be looking at 10mA as a reasonable top end. I'd have thought that's ok for a buck-boost, but I haven't checked the specs of those. Noise from a switched convertor would be more of a worry for me, since we're going to be pre-amping some small signal coming out of this mic and any noise along with it.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom
> 
> 
> On 21 May 2013, at 16:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Not the best idea if you want a lot of current.. don't do it, just say NO!
>> 
>> If you want 48v DC then you need 0 and some AC voltage a bit above 48,
>> so that the regulator has something to work off.
>> 
>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:31, dan snazelle wrote:
>>> 
>>>> So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?
>>> 
>>> what you need is something like a buck-boost converter, like the one Barry linked to.
>>> 
>>> hth,
>>> 
>>> /m
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May 21 20:09:28 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 20:09:28 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP2120EBA0E51FD3B40CA7055C8A80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
	<0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>
	<CA+9GZUhEQRbEnpHqkM0QF6t3MxdtceE7aLgMsBHC0Aor3zE7Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DB63BDF1-DDB7-4142-82B4-56515235C56B@electricdruid.net>
	<BLU0-SMTP2120EBA0E51FD3B40CA7055C8A80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUjHHBykAemFtBwGjA1w9QCKYeOi+EnTQRBiepGYF=uDEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, in this case you'll be able to provide current, but it might be
dirty, so keep that in mind! Have a look with your spec an.

D.

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 7:58 PM, Dan Snazelle <subjectivity at hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is to power 2 mics in a rack
>
> I was thinking a dc to dc type circuit would provide ample current
>
>
> Thanks!!!!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 21, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> It depends how much current we're really talking about here. "A lot" doesn't really give us a spec to work with.
>> A bit of a search turned this up:
>>
>> "2 mA is not even very much by modern standards. A Neumann TLM 103 draws 3 mA; Schoeps CMC 5-- and 6-- microphones draw about 4.5 mA; Shure KSM-series mikes typically draw 5.5 mA; many CAD Equiteks draw 8 mA. The maximum allowable current per microphone is 10 mA, at which point the voltage at the microphone will have dropped to a mere 14 Volts or so--more power is dissipated in the phantom resistors than is available to be used by the microphone! But there are some highly regarded Earthworks microphones which draw that much current, for example."
>>
>> from http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?7362-Phantom-Power-Current-Draw-in-New-Mics
>>
>> That suggests you might be looking at 10mA as a reasonable top end. I'd have thought that's ok for a buck-boost, but I haven't checked the specs of those. Noise from a switched convertor would be more of a worry for me, since we're going to be pre-amping some small signal coming out of this mic and any noise along with it.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not the best idea if you want a lot of current.. don't do it, just say NO!
>>>
>>> If you want 48v DC then you need 0 and some AC voltage a bit above 48,
>>> so that the regulator has something to work off.
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:31, dan snazelle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?
>>>>
>>>> what you need is something like a buck-boost converter, like the one Barry linked to.
>>>>
>>>> hth,
>>>>
>>>> /m
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From john at hvidlykke.dk  Tue May 21 20:30:55 2013
From: john at hvidlykke.dk (John Alex Hvidlykke)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 20:30:55 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B3C9ABED-53AB-4BE7-B809-6F8F52C36DFA@hvidlykke.dk>

That sounds great. You could also look at some of the (very basic) soundmaking projects in Nicolas Collins' book "the art of hardware hacking". 

Enjoy. Teaching kids electronics is fun - and hard ;-)

Cheers
John

Den 21/05/2013 kl. 19.53 skrev Monse Lozano <panfilero at hotmail.com>:

> This is my first post to the email list, hopefully it goes through
> 
> 
> I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate some audio synth type circuits into the class.  I was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions for cool noise making projects?  I'm not very familiar with synthesizer design, I've been reading up on it a bit and started putting together a simple sawtooth generator, the one with an integrator and a comparator, where the output ramps up until the comparator shorts the integrator's cap and discharges it.  I'm looking for simple circuits like this, I'm not worried about correcting non-linearities or temperature compensation, just noise makers to get the kids interested.  
> 
> much thanks!                         
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From jdec at mindspring.com  Tue May 21 20:47:06 2013
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 14:47:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
Message-ID: <31222564.1369162026607.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Some basic 555 timer circuits can make a lot of noise too!

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
>From: Monse Lozano <panfilero at hotmail.com>
>Sent: May 21, 2013 1:53 PM
>To: "synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
>
>This is my first post to the email list, hopefully it goes through
>
>
>I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate some audio synth type circuits into the class. ?I was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions for cool noise making projects? ?I'm not very familiar with synthesizer design, I've been reading up on it a bit and started putting together a simple sawtooth generator, the one with an integrator and a comparator, where the output ramps up until the comparator shorts the integrator's cap and discharges it. ?I'm looking for simple circuits like this, I'm not worried about correcting non-linearities or temperature compensation, just noise makers to get the kids interested. ?
>
>much thanks! 		 	   		  
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy





From jim at cernproductions.com  Tue May 21 20:51:50 2013
From: jim at cernproductions.com (Jim Credland)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 19:51:50 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <31222564.1369162026607.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <31222564.1369162026607.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <35CEB709-112F-457D-8EA9-ED21D0352189@cernproductions.com>

When I was a kid I remember 555 circuits as being somewhat dull.  The 555 provided a kind of cheap magic!  Having some more separate components to understand and meddle with sounds more exciting. 

(These days 555s look like handy solutions, but what are they doing with all my current?!?!) 

On 21 May 2013, at 19:47, BrightBoy <jdec at mindspring.com> wrote:

> Some basic 555 timer circuits can make a lot of noise too!
> 
> Jeff
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Monse Lozano <panfilero at hotmail.com>
>> Sent: May 21, 2013 1:53 PM
>> To: "synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
>> 
>> This is my first post to the email list, hopefully it goes through
>> 
>> 
>> I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate some audio synth type circuits into the class.  I was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions for cool noise making projects?  I'm not very familiar with synthesizer design, I've been reading up on it a bit and started putting together a simple sawtooth generator, the one with an integrator and a comparator, where the output ramps up until the comparator shorts the integrator's cap and discharges it.  I'm looking for simple circuits like this, I'm not worried about correcting non-linearities or temperature compensation, just noise makers to get the kids interested.  
>> 
>> much thanks! 		 	   		  
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From music.maker at gte.net  Tue May 21 20:55:43 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 11:55:43 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
Message-ID: <201305211855.r4LIthcn031505@linux7.lan>


This link: http://electro-music.com/forum/forum-160.html points to the Lunetta
forum of electro-music.com.   Lots of simple and easy noise makers are in there.
 I've not built any of them, but many people do and like them.  They use mostly
cheap and easy to get CMOS components.

Lunettas are described as:  	
Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta - Digital, dirty, simple, cheap
and lot of great fun.

The term "digital" here doesn't mean DSP, it means merely that most of the
circuits are built around CMOS ICs originally meant for digital applications,
but the circuits press them into analog type applications.


>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Monse Lozano <panfilero at hotmail.com>
>>Sent: May 21, 2013 1:53 PM
>>To: "synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
>>
>>This is my first post to the email list, hopefully it goes through
>>
>>
>>I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th 
>graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate some 
>audio synth type circuits into the class. ??I was wondering if 
>anyone could give me any suggestions for cool noise making 
>projects? ??I'm not very familiar with synthesizer design, I've 
>been reading up on it a bit and started putting together a simple 
>sawtooth generator, the one with an integrator and a comparator, 
>where the output ramps up until the comparator shorts the 
>integrator's cap and discharges it. ??I'm looking for simple 
>circuits like this, I'm not worried about correcting 
>non-linearities or temperature compensation, just noise makers to 
>get the kids interested. ?? > >much thanks! 

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com  Tue May 21 20:59:48 2013
From: Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com (Barry Klein)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 18:59:48 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Anyone attend the San Mateo Makerfaire?
Message-ID: <83EEDB9AA00D6B449EB022CF4EFEC3238CA765ED@wdscexmb03.sc.wdc.com>

Anyone attend the San Mateo Makerfaire this weekend?
I've been to several and skipped it this time in favor of something completely different.
Just wondering about your impressions and if anything you saw was really cool.
The previous years events were getting too kid-centric and redundant for me to drive all that way and spend for hotel etc.

Barry



From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Tue May 21 21:04:34 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Thx1138)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 12:04:34 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <201305211855.r4LIthcn031505@linux7.lan>
References: <201305211855.r4LIthcn031505@linux7.lan>
Message-ID: <6B369421-B869-4C59-8ABD-2FB8C0A657B7@earthlink.net>

Hi

How about building crystal radios?  I did this with some kids at the middle school kids and now they can hear Rush Limbaugh over at KFI am radio in la Miranda.

Terry

Sent from my iPhone

On May 21, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Scott Gravenhorst <music.maker at gte.net> wrote:

> 
> This link: http://electro-music.com/forum/forum-160.html points to the Lunetta
> forum of electro-music.com.   Lots of simple and easy noise makers are in there.
> I've not built any of them, but many people do and like them.  They use mostly
> cheap and easy to get CMOS components.
> 
> Lunettas are described as:      
> Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta - Digital, dirty, simple, cheap
> and lot of great fun.
> 
> The term "digital" here doesn't mean DSP, it means merely that most of the
> circuits are built around CMOS ICs originally meant for digital applications,
> but the circuits press them into analog type applications.
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Monse Lozano <panfilero at hotmail.com>
>>> Sent: May 21, 2013 1:53 PM
>>> To: "synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
>>> 
>>> This is my first post to the email list, hopefully it goes through
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th
>> graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate some 
>> audio synth type circuits into the class.  I was wondering if 
>> anyone could give me any suggestions for cool noise making 
>> projects?  I'm not very familiar with synthesizer design, I've 
>> been reading up on it a bit and started putting together a simple 
>> sawtooth generator, the one with an integrator and a comparator, 
>> where the output ramps up until the comparator shorts the 
>> integrator's cap and discharges it.  I'm looking for simple 
>> circuits like this, I'm not worried about correcting 
>> non-linearities or temperature compensation, just noise makers to 
>> get the kids interested.   > >much thanks!
> 
> -- ScottG
> ________________________________________________________________________
> -- Scott Gravenhorst
> -- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
> -- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
> -- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
> -- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From mverbos at earthlink.net  Tue May 21 21:09:15 2013
From: mverbos at earthlink.net (mark verbos)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 15:09:15 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Getting 48v from +/-12v??
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP2120EBA0E51FD3B40CA7055C8A80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU0-SMTP118BC7AB91BB803A24E230FC8A80@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUgdO0gyYSekg0wzpxvW7aGaAMgsqE-u1jwA7ouJ_VN_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU0-SMTP34EA41E1C69C650C4A4659C8A80@phx.gbl>
	<0ED8F6D0-BE46-4FC2-815E-329A38CD070E@pingdynasty.com>
	<CA+9GZUhEQRbEnpHqkM0QF6t3MxdtceE7aLgMsBHC0Aor3zE7Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DB63BDF1-DDB7-4142-82B4-56515235C56B@electricdruid.net>
	<BLU0-SMTP2120EBA0E51FD3B40CA7055C8A80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5FF7CBC8-B6B2-442B-9C27-471271394117@earthlink.net>

I'd look at the circuit in the top right corner of the Paia tube mic pre.
Or use a packaged DC-DC converter, which are often regulated. Looks like they don't come cheap in that voltage though. You might do ok with something like this 

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Murata-Power-Solutions/NMH0524DC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtwaiKVUtQsNc5yzZotoBjeh7%252bctzLi63g%3d

It's specced to be +/-24 volts isolated output, but if you put the -24 side to ground, the +24 will look a lot like +48.

Mark




On May 21, 2013, at 1:58 PM, Dan Snazelle wrote:

> This is to power 2 mics in a rack
> 
> I was thinking a dc to dc type circuit would provide ample current
> 
> 
> Thanks!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On May 21, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> It depends how much current we're really talking about here. "A lot" doesn't really give us a spec to work with.
>> A bit of a search turned this up:
>> 
>> "2 mA is not even very much by modern standards. A Neumann TLM 103 draws 3 mA; Schoeps CMC 5-- and 6-- microphones draw about 4.5 mA; Shure KSM-series mikes typically draw 5.5 mA; many CAD Equiteks draw 8 mA. The maximum allowable current per microphone is 10 mA, at which point the voltage at the microphone will have dropped to a mere 14 Volts or so--more power is dissipated in the phantom resistors than is available to be used by the microphone! But there are some highly regarded Earthworks microphones which draw that much current, for example."
>> 
>> from http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?7362-Phantom-Power-Current-Draw-in-New-Mics
>> 
>> That suggests you might be looking at 10mA as a reasonable top end. I'd have thought that's ok for a buck-boost, but I haven't checked the specs of those. Noise from a switched convertor would be more of a worry for me, since we're going to be pre-amping some small signal coming out of this mic and any noise along with it.
>> 
>> HTH,
>> Tom
>> 
>> 
>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:52, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Not the best idea if you want a lot of current.. don't do it, just say NO!
>>> 
>>> If you want 48v DC then you need 0 and some AC voltage a bit above 48,
>>> so that the regulator has something to work off.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On 21 May 2013, at 16:31, dan snazelle wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> So my question would be what sort of transformer to look for?
>>>> 
>>>> what you need is something like a buck-boost converter, like the one Barry linked to.
>>>> 
>>>> hth,
>>>> 
>>>> /m
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From gaslampmusehog at yahoo.com  Tue May 21 21:13:02 2013
From: gaslampmusehog at yahoo.com (Joshua Shroyer)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 12:13:02 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Anyone attend the San Mateo Makerfaire?
In-Reply-To: <83EEDB9AA00D6B449EB022CF4EFEC3238CA765ED@wdscexmb03.sc.wdc.com>
References: <83EEDB9AA00D6B449EB022CF4EFEC3238CA765ED@wdscexmb03.sc.wdc.com>
Message-ID: <0ADAE5F7-5A4E-4276-8FE3-D260F72C3C9D@yahoo.com>

Hello, and first post after two years of subscription!
Arduino, Raspberry Pi, and 3D printing...
I did pick up a beautiful bug of the walking stick family mounted in a shadow box. 

Joshua

On May 21, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Barry Klein <Barry.L.Klein at wdc.com> wrote:

> Anyone attend the San Mateo Makerfaire this weekend?
> I've been to several and skipped it this time in favor of something completely different.
> Just wondering about your impressions and if anything you saw was really cool.
> The previous years events were getting too kid-centric and redundant for me to drive all that way and spend for hotel etc.
> 
> Barry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tom at electricdruid.net  Tue May 21 21:19:12 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 20:19:12 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <31222564.1369162026607.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <31222564.1369162026607.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8C031833-40DC-425B-9A6D-07FC4E2C3D9F@electricdruid.net>

+1

A 555 timer and a 4024 counter got me into synth DIY. When I discovered I could feed the LED flashing circuit's output to a loudspeaker and get rapid clicks, I discovered making my own audio for the first time.

Tom

On 21 May 2013, at 19:47, BrightBoy <jdec at mindspring.com> wrote:

> Some basic 555 timer circuits can make a lot of noise too!
> 
> Jeff
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Monse Lozano <panfilero at hotmail.com>
>> Sent: May 21, 2013 1:53 PM
>> To: "synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
>> 
>> This is my first post to the email list, hopefully it goes through
>> 
>> 
>> I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate some audio synth type circuits into the class.  I was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions for cool noise making projects?  I'm not very familiar with synthesizer design, I've been reading up on it a bit and started putting together a simple sawtooth generator, the one with an integrator and a comparator, where the output ramps up until the comparator shorts the integrator's cap and discharges it.  I'm looking for simple circuits like this, I'm not worried about correcting non-linearities or temperature compensation, just noise makers to get the kids interested.  
>> 
>> much thanks! 		 	   		  
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From goaqihai at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May 21 21:27:03 2013
From: goaqihai at yahoo.co.uk (ganesha)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 20:27:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [sdiy] 10 VPP VCO in 3VPP max VCF
In-Reply-To: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
References: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <1369164423.40993.YahooMailNeo@web171503.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

Hi,

I would like to build the Korg MS50 VCF as a module in my synthesizers.com system.
But the dotcom VCO's are 10VPP while the Korg MS50 VCF has written 'Max 3VPP' above the input.
Is there a way to convert the VCF to 10VPP? Would an extra input buffer (that divides the input by3) and an output buffer (which multiplies it back with 3) be a sollution? 

Thanks,
Kris.



From nitro2k01 at gmail.com  Tue May 21 21:59:19 2013
From: nitro2k01 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?T3ZlIFJpZMOp?=)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 21:59:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] 10 VPP VCO in 3VPP max VCF
In-Reply-To: <1369164423.40993.YahooMailNeo@web171503.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
References: <5D9FF612-43CF-4B7F-AAD2-AA1C048082BF@electricdruid.net>
	<1369164423.40993.YahooMailNeo@web171503.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABacs=Awa0-NT9sfeQRyZ87eP35KCTrvufybnJd5-v-7+12Lrg@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, a voltage divider, consisting of two resistors.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/Impedance_Voltage_divider.png


Or better yet, a gain pot, so you can both use low and high signals,
and overdrive the filter if you wish.

On 21 May 2013 21:27, ganesha <goaqihai at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to build the Korg MS50 VCF as a module in my synthesizers.com system.
> But the dotcom VCO's are 10VPP while the Korg MS50 VCF has written 'Max 3VPP' above the input.
> Is there a way to convert the VCF to 10VPP? Would an extra input buffer (that divides the input by3) and an output buffer (which multiplies it back with 3) be a sollution?
>
> Thanks,
> Kris.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
/Ove

Blog: <http://blog.gg8.se/>

"Here is Evergreen City. Evergreen? is the color of green forever."


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Tue May 21 22:32:50 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 13:32:50 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <201305211855.r4LIthcn031505@linux7.lan>
References: <201305211855.r4LIthcn031505@linux7.lan>
Message-ID: <73DDABB2-4A28-4780-9A20-B0E3EA857095@earthlink.net>

Brother, ain't it the Truth.

The Crystal Radios were at the right level of complexity for middle school kids.

Not sure if younger kids can do all the tasks.

I believe that there are Kits out there that can be had pretty cheaply.

The toughest task was winding the Tuning coil with Magnet wire.

The rest was pretty simple. Too bad the AM band is so full of Right Wing crap in La Mirada as KFI is so strong there.

best always
Terry Shultz 
thx1138 at earthlink.net



On May 21, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Scott Gravenhorst <music.maker at gte.net> wrote:

> 
> This link: http://electro-music.com/forum/forum-160.html points to the Lunetta
> forum of electro-music.com.   Lots of simple and easy noise makers are in there.
> I've not built any of them, but many people do and like them.  They use mostly
> cheap and easy to get CMOS components.
> 
> Lunettas are described as:  	
> Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta - Digital, dirty, simple, cheap
> and lot of great fun.
> 
> The term "digital" here doesn't mean DSP, it means merely that most of the
> circuits are built around CMOS ICs originally meant for digital applications,
> but the circuits press them into analog type applications.
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Monse Lozano <panfilero at hotmail.com>
>>> Sent: May 21, 2013 1:53 PM
>>> To: "synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
>>> 
>>> This is my first post to the email list, hopefully it goes through
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th 
>> graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate some 
>> audio synth type circuits into the class.  I was wondering if 
>> anyone could give me any suggestions for cool noise making 
>> projects?  I'm not very familiar with synthesizer design, I've 
>> been reading up on it a bit and started putting together a simple 
>> sawtooth generator, the one with an integrator and a comparator, 
>> where the output ramps up until the comparator shorts the 
>> integrator's cap and discharges it.  I'm looking for simple 
>> circuits like this, I'm not worried about correcting 
>> non-linearities or temperature compensation, just noise makers to 
>> get the kids interested.   > >much thanks! 
> 
> -- ScottG
> ________________________________________________________________________
> -- Scott Gravenhorst
> -- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
> -- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
> -- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
> -- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From rga24 at cantab.net  Tue May 21 23:05:27 2013
From: rga24 at cantab.net (Richard Atkinson)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 22:05:27 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] FS: New England Digital Synclavier II (UK)
Message-ID: <0f1601ce5666$ecebc390$c6c34ab0$@net>

I've decided to sell my Synclavier II. It's a 16 voice unit with the memory
maxed out (56 Kwords) and the ORK controller. I have two disk drives for it
(in case one fails) and two of each type of ribbon cable, the cable between
the rack unit and the ORK and the cable between the disk drive and the rack
unit.

In case you're wondering what the analogue connection is, on the back of the
ORK there are many control voltages for connecting to a modular synthesizer,
see for example:

http://pics.studiorepair.com/misc/NED_Synclavier_II/slides/NED_Synclavier_II
_Keyboard_Jacks__STUDIOREPAIR_08081501_1005244959.html

http://pics.studiorepair.com/misc/NED_Synclavier_II/slides/NED_Synclavier_II
_Keyboard_Jacks__STUDIOREPAIR_08081501_1005244960.html

It's located in the UK but it's a 115V machine like all Synclaviers. I have
a heavy duty step down transformer also included to power it from 240V or
220V.

Any enquiries, please contact me in private mail.



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed May 22 00:42:48 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 15:42:48 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <6B369421-B869-4C59-8ABD-2FB8C0A657B7@earthlink.net>
References: <201305211855.r4LIthcn031505@linux7.lan>
	<6B369421-B869-4C59-8ABD-2FB8C0A657B7@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DF3D67F7727D46AD95EF15A38941C256@galvanox01>

> How about building crystal radios?  I did this with some kids 
> at the middle school kids and now they can hear Rush Limbaugh 
> over at KFI am radio in la Miranda.

Great!  In addition to learning the basics of electronics, they can be
brainwashed into becoming right-wing whack-jobs!  :)



From panfilero at hotmail.com  Wed May 22 01:07:00 2013
From: panfilero at hotmail.com (Monse Lozano)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 23:07:00 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <CAKhtw4jt3LBG9RQsQNVrRSrMz=G_FyeW_P4CWFPCsG33vto_kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>,
	<18B46190117D44FAABA81A55ED242941@galvanox01>,
	<CAKhtw4jt3LBG9RQsQNVrRSrMz=G_FyeW_P4CWFPCsG33vto_kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU174-W130351867F73BBD8B35B63ABA80@phx.gbl>

Thanks for the good info, sure I'll keep you posted on how it goes, I plan on posting some of the projects and videos online.


________________________________
> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 11:42:27 -0700 
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids 
> From: harlan.foster at gmail.com 
> CC: panfilero at hotmail.com; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> 
> Monse- 
> I have a handful of links that may be of use - all with affordability 
> and accessibility in mind, many of the circuits you'll find from these 
> links lend themselves well to experimentation. 
> 
> Some very cost effective stuff in this book by Nicholas Collins: 
> http://www.amazon.com/Handmade-Electronic-Music-Hardware-Hacking/dp/0415998735 
> 
> The Atari-Punk-Console has a lot of bang for the buck (article links to 
> schematics): 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Punk_Console 
> 
> Also, the world of Lunetta synths has plenty to offer on the 
> simple/cheap side - Single sided power, mostly CMOS chips: 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V9qerry_PsXTZqt_UDx7C-wcuMe_6_gyy6M_MyAgQoA/edit 
> The Lunetta synths are primarily aimed at cheap modular (not V/Hz 
> scaled) synth modules, but simple standalone devices can also be 
> constructed - LFO + VCOs from a single IC and a few pots, resistors, 
> and capacitors. If you have the kids breadboarding, there is plenty of 
> room for experimentation here, and then taking it to strip board is 
> pretty simple. 
> 
> Also, consider the Beavis Audio page on CMOS synths, also has some good 
> links at the bottom, including a (legal) downloadable PDF abridged 
> version of Nicholas Collins' book I listed above: 
> http://www.beavisaudio.com/Projects/CMOS_Synthesizers/ 
> 
> And, for audible reference, here is a CMOS based audio drone circuit 
> I've been working on - there are three chips at work here, with a 
> materials cost of about $1.00 US: 
> https://soundcloud.com/tengu-23/dronehive-test-3-svf-and-saw 
> While the dual-sided power supplied, temperature compensated synth 
> circuits are formidable (and musically precise) I think there is plenty 
> of interesting sound to be had by coaxing digital circuits into analog 
> audio roles. 
> 
> Back in the day, I used to teach several after school art programs for 
> kids from 5 to 16 (difficult range to work with, in general!) I've 
> wondered about teaching electronics in a similar setting, I for one 
> would be interested in hearing how this project goes. 
>>Harlan 
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:57 AM, David G Dixon 
> <dixon at mail.ubc.ca<mailto:dixon at mail.ubc.ca>> wrote: 
> Very worthy project, Monse. Please check out this website (known 
> colloquially as MFOS): 
> 
> www.musicfromouterspace.com<http://www.musicfromouterspace.com> 
> 
> I'm sure there will be tonnes of stuff there that you can use for the class. 
> Perhaps they can collaboratively build an MFOS Weird Sound Generator. 
> 
> 
>> I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th 
>> graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate 
>> some audio synth type circuits into the class. I was 
>> wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions for cool 
>> noise making projects? I'm not very familiar with 
>> synthesizer design, I've been reading up on it a bit and 
>> started putting together a simple sawtooth generator, the one 
>> with an integrator and a comparator, where the output ramps 
>> up until the comparator shorts the integrator's cap and 
>> discharges it. I'm looking for simple circuits like this, 
>> I'm not worried about correcting non-linearities or 
>> temperature compensation, just noise makers to get the kids 
>> interested. 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Synth-diy mailing list 
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> 
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
> 		 	   		  

From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Wed May 22 01:18:12 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 16:18:12 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <BLU174-W130351867F73BBD8B35B63ABA80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>
	<18B46190117D44FAABA81A55ED242941@galvanox01>
	<CAKhtw4jt3LBG9RQsQNVrRSrMz=G_FyeW_P4CWFPCsG33vto_kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU174-W130351867F73BBD8B35B63ABA80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A9074791-07CE-4741-B6F0-11B349FF6571@earthlink.net>

Hello Monserrat,

Would you like some crystal radio kits?

I may be able to get some more at a pretty reasonable discount as my wife runs 11 schools in the area.

She has pretty good resources for such activities.

Best regards,

Terry Shultz

DSP/arm audio technology and applications
Thx1138 at earthlink.net

Sent from my iPad

On May 21, 2013, at 4:07 PM, Monse Lozano <panfilero at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the good info, sure I'll keep you posted on how it goes, I plan on posting some of the projects and videos online.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 11:42:27 -0700 
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids 
>> From: harlan.foster at gmail.com 
>> CC: panfilero at hotmail.com; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
>> 
>> Monse- 
>> I have a handful of links that may be of use - all with affordability 
>> and accessibility in mind, many of the circuits you'll find from these 
>> links lend themselves well to experimentation. 
>> 
>> Some very cost effective stuff in this book by Nicholas Collins: 
>> http://www.amazon.com/Handmade-Electronic-Music-Hardware-Hacking/dp/0415998735 
>> 
>> The Atari-Punk-Console has a lot of bang for the buck (article links to 
>> schematics): 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Punk_Console 
>> 
>> Also, the world of Lunetta synths has plenty to offer on the 
>> simple/cheap side - Single sided power, mostly CMOS chips: 
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V9qerry_PsXTZqt_UDx7C-wcuMe_6_gyy6M_MyAgQoA/edit 
>> The Lunetta synths are primarily aimed at cheap modular (not V/Hz 
>> scaled) synth modules, but simple standalone devices can also be 
>> constructed - LFO + VCOs from a single IC and a few pots, resistors, 
>> and capacitors. If you have the kids breadboarding, there is plenty of 
>> room for experimentation here, and then taking it to strip board is 
>> pretty simple. 
>> 
>> Also, consider the Beavis Audio page on CMOS synths, also has some good 
>> links at the bottom, including a (legal) downloadable PDF abridged 
>> version of Nicholas Collins' book I listed above: 
>> http://www.beavisaudio.com/Projects/CMOS_Synthesizers/ 
>> 
>> And, for audible reference, here is a CMOS based audio drone circuit 
>> I've been working on - there are three chips at work here, with a 
>> materials cost of about $1.00 US: 
>> https://soundcloud.com/tengu-23/dronehive-test-3-svf-and-saw 
>> While the dual-sided power supplied, temperature compensated synth 
>> circuits are formidable (and musically precise) I think there is plenty 
>> of interesting sound to be had by coaxing digital circuits into analog 
>> audio roles. 
>> 
>> Back in the day, I used to teach several after school art programs for 
>> kids from 5 to 16 (difficult range to work with, in general!) I've 
>> wondered about teaching electronics in a similar setting, I for one 
>> would be interested in hearing how this project goes. 
>>> Harlan
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:57 AM, David G Dixon 
>> <dixon at mail.ubc.ca<mailto:dixon at mail.ubc.ca>> wrote: 
>> Very worthy project, Monse. Please check out this website (known 
>> colloquially as MFOS): 
>> 
>> www.musicfromouterspace.com<http://www.musicfromouterspace.com> 
>> 
>> I'm sure there will be tonnes of stuff there that you can use for the class. 
>> Perhaps they can collaboratively build an MFOS Weird Sound Generator. 
>> 
>> 
>>> I am about to start an after school programs to teach 6th-8th 
>>> graders basic electronics and I would like to incorporate 
>>> some audio synth type circuits into the class. I was 
>>> wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions for cool 
>>> noise making projects? I'm not very familiar with 
>>> synthesizer design, I've been reading up on it a bit and 
>>> started putting together a simple sawtooth generator, the one 
>>> with an integrator and a comparator, where the output ramps 
>>> up until the comparator shorts the integrator's cap and 
>>> discharges it. I'm looking for simple circuits like this, 
>>> I'm not worried about correcting non-linearities or 
>>> temperature compensation, just noise makers to get the kids 
>>> interested.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ 
>> Synth-diy mailing list 
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> 
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From minimoog1 at hotmail.com  Wed May 22 04:20:59 2013
From: minimoog1 at hotmail.com (geoff james)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 12:50:59 +1030
Subject: [sdiy] A402 or LS3954A jfet
Message-ID: <BLU162-W17C320D3ABC28244332228F7A90@phx.gbl>

Hi All , anyone know of a source for the above?
regards
Geoff 		 	   		  

From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Wed May 22 12:08:28 2013
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 12:08:28 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Resistor math
In-Reply-To: <6C751F67-5B1E-4465-A7F4-9329883E70A3@free.fr>
References: <CB5A6765-4676-42D0-B5DD-F1D629BB29CD@gmail.com>
	<6C751F67-5B1E-4465-A7F4-9329883E70A3@free.fr>
Message-ID: <C5D2B923-DE36-459C-A733-BA5C80E2E689@gmail.com>

Thanks, yes it's indeed the summing amplifier. However, your 2 cents seem to be an answer to a different question. What I meant was that I'm using a 8:1 mux to select inputs, but I'm not selecting single inputs, but selecting different weighted sums of signals. My question is how to take the mux's ON-resistance into account when computing values for the weighting network?

Rutger.


On 21 mei 2013, at 14:12, Julien Delgoulet wrote:

> Hum ?
> 
> Have you checked this pdf : 
> 
> http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee122/Parts_Info/datasheets/op_amp_circuit%20collection_AN-31.pdf
> Your circuit is the "Inverting Summing Amplifier", a classic one.
> Also if you are using an analog switch to "select" inputs, may be you could use an analog switch to select the resistor in the feedback loop of the opamp ?
> 
> My 2 cents ..
> 
> Julien
> 
> 
> Le 21 mai 2013 ? 11:50, Rutger Vlek <rutgervlek at gmail.com> a ?crit :
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I need a little help calculating values for a network of precision resistors. The resistors are used for summing several signals with different weights (1x 2x 4x 12x, etc). Summing is done at the virtual ground of an inverting opamp. I've used 100K in the feedbackloop of the opamp, so to weight one of the inputs with 1x a resistor of 100K is normally used, and 50K for 2x and 25K for 4x. However... there is an analog switch in between the summing network and the inverting input of the opamp, with a typical ON-resistance of 40ohms. My question is, how does this affect the values that should be used for the summing network? And how to compute new values for those resistors that assure summation with the exact weights I need (and how to implement those with limited values available in a series of 0.1% tolerance precision resistors)?
>> 
>> Here's an overview of the summing network:
>> 
>> --1xresistor----|
>> --2xresistor----|
>> --4xresistor----|-----analog switch----inverting opamp---
>> --12xresistor--|
>> 
>> Any help is appreciated!
>> 
>> Rutger
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Wed May 22 13:37:46 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 12:37:46 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Resistor math
In-Reply-To: <C5D2B923-DE36-459C-A733-BA5C80E2E689@gmail.com>
References: <CB5A6765-4676-42D0-B5DD-F1D629BB29CD@gmail.com>
	<6C751F67-5B1E-4465-A7F4-9329883E70A3@free.fr>
	<C5D2B923-DE36-459C-A733-BA5C80E2E689@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c4c3ddebf4cbd7b05fac170163907c8d@richieburnett.co.uk>

The 40ohm figure you quote for the on-resistance of your analogue 
switch will have far less effect on the circuit than the tolerances on 
your much larger 25K, 50K & 100K resistors.  So, I think you can safely 
ignore the effect of the 40 ohms of on-resistance.

-Richie,


On 2013-05-22 11:08, Rutger Vlek wrote:
> Thanks, yes it's indeed the summing amplifier. However, your 2 cents
> seem to be an answer to a different question. What I meant was that
> I'm using a 8:1 mux to select inputs, but I'm not selecting single
> inputs, but selecting different weighted sums of signals. My question
> is how to take the mux's ON-resistance into account when computing
> values for the weighting network?
> 
> Rutger.
> 
> 
> On 21 mei 2013, at 14:12, Julien Delgoulet wrote:
> 
>> Hum ?
>> 
>> Have you checked this pdf :
>> 
>> http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee122/Parts_Info/datasheets/op_amp_circuit%20collection_AN-31.pdf
>> Your circuit is the "Inverting Summing Amplifier", a classic one.
>> Also if you are using an analog switch to "select" inputs, may be you 
>> could use an analog switch to select the resistor in the feedback loop 
>> of the opamp ?
>> 
>> My 2 cents ..
>> 
>> Julien
>> 
>> 
>> Le 21 mai 2013 ? 11:50, Rutger Vlek <rutgervlek at gmail.com> a ?crit :
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I need a little help calculating values for a network of precision 
>>> resistors. The resistors are used for summing several signals with 
>>> different weights (1x 2x 4x 12x, etc). Summing is done at the virtual 
>>> ground of an inverting opamp. I've used 100K in the feedbackloop of 
>>> the opamp, so to weight one of the inputs with 1x a resistor of 100K 
>>> is normally used, and 50K for 2x and 25K for 4x. However... there is 
>>> an analog switch in between the summing network and the inverting 
>>> input of the opamp, with a typical ON-resistance of 40ohms. My 
>>> question is, how does this affect the values that should be used for 
>>> the summing network? And how to compute new values for those 
>>> resistors that assure summation with the exact weights I need (and 
>>> how to implement those with limited values available in a series of 
>>> 0.1% tolerance precision resistors)?
>>> 
>>> Here's an overview of the summing network:
>>> 
>>> --1xresistor----|
>>> --2xresistor----|
>>> --4xresistor----|-----analog switch----inverting opamp---
>>> --12xresistor--|
>>> 
>>> Any help is appreciated!
>>> 
>>> Rutger
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Wed May 22 13:41:32 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 12:41:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Resistor math
In-Reply-To: <C5D2B923-DE36-459C-A733-BA5C80E2E689@gmail.com>
References: <CB5A6765-4676-42D0-B5DD-F1D629BB29CD@gmail.com>
	<6C751F67-5B1E-4465-A7F4-9329883E70A3@free.fr>
	<C5D2B923-DE36-459C-A733-BA5C80E2E689@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <512906297b3947d64fe3d4a39eede4d2@richieburnett.co.uk>

...I think i'd be more worried about the finite off-resistance (or the 
CMOS switch's stray off-capacitance) bleeding enough current into the 
virtual earth of the op-amp to cause leakage problems when the switch is 
meant to be firmly off.

-Richie,


From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Wed May 22 15:34:25 2013
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 14:34:25 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Resistor math
In-Reply-To: <512906297b3947d64fe3d4a39eede4d2@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <CB5A6765-4676-42D0-B5DD-F1D629BB29CD@gmail.com>
	<6C751F67-5B1E-4465-A7F4-9329883E70A3@free.fr>
	<C5D2B923-DE36-459C-A733-BA5C80E2E689@gmail.com>
	<512906297b3947d64fe3d4a39eede4d2@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <519CC961.9010906@bugbrand.co.uk>

I'm sure there's some discussion around such things in the excellent 
Small Signal Audio Design by Doug Self:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun11/articles/small-signal-audio-design.htm
 From memory, I think it is suggested that switching should be before 
the summing resistors, possibly with shunt to ground.
Ta, Tom

On 22/05/2013 12:41, rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk wrote:
> ...I think i'd be more worried about the finite off-resistance (or the 
> CMOS switch's stray off-capacitance) bleeding enough current into the 
> virtual earth of the op-amp to cause leakage problems when the switch 
> is meant to be firmly off.
>
> -Richie,
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From mars at pingdynasty.com  Wed May 22 16:05:46 2013
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 15:05:46 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <BLU174-W130351867F73BBD8B35B63ABA80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>,
	<18B46190117D44FAABA81A55ED242941@galvanox01>,
	<CAKhtw4jt3LBG9RQsQNVrRSrMz=G_FyeW_P4CWFPCsG33vto_kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU174-W130351867F73BBD8B35B63ABA80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E92B3195-B720-4149-BB34-CFF3A60AA164@pingdynasty.com>


I'll second the Atari/Vibrati Punk Console -
great little project, self contained, easy enough to do in a group, and everyone loves a bit of noise right!

http://lushprojects.com/vpc/

I built one with my 13yr nephew, he loved it and immediately came up with ideas to extend it.

/m

On 22 May 2013, at 00:07, Monse Lozano wrote:

> Thanks for the good info, sure I'll keep you posted on how it goes, I plan on posting some of the projects and videos online.
> 



From daugard at cox.net  Wed May 22 17:05:26 2013
From: daugard at cox.net (Tim Daugard)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 10:05:26 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E7BE918AD3794A0A85CB67A432EAD35D@TIM>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Monse Lozano" <panfilero at hotmail.com>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:53 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids

How about the classic chirping bird transistor circuit?

Tim Daugard



From barryklein at cox.net  Wed May 22 17:07:51 2013
From: barryklein at cox.net (Barry Klein)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 08:07:51 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <E92B3195-B720-4149-BB34-CFF3A60AA164@pingdynasty.com>
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>,
	<18B46190117D44FAABA81A55ED242941@galvanox01>,
	<CAKhtw4jt3LBG9RQsQNVrRSrMz=G_FyeW_P4CWFPCsG33vto_kg@mail.gmail.com>	<BLU174-W130351867F73BBD8B35B63ABA80@phx.gbl>
	<E92B3195-B720-4149-BB34-CFF3A60AA164@pingdynasty.com>
Message-ID: <006201ce56fe$210b6580$63223080$@cox.net>

Something a bit more complex but very rewarding if you get it to work is the
Surf PI metal detector kit from here:
http://www.silverdog.co.uk/shop/index.php?route=product/category&path=36
Depending on your success in building it and what you move the coil over, it
makes some of the same sounds as your suggestion but maybe there is a
diamond ring under it that is going to help pay for the kit...
It actually is a very elegant design if you take a look at the schematic. It
has you thinking about negative voltage conversion (ICL7660), oscillators
(NE555), analog switches (CD4066) and integrators, preamps (NE5534P),
threshold detection (LM358), speaker driving with a transistor,
calibration/tweaking with trimpots, coil winding, switching coils and
generating high voltages (650V but transient that diodes suppress).  You
would need to get in front of a scope to tweak it for best final tweak.
This circuit has so much going on with so few parts!  The circuit is
actually the same circuit used in the Whites Surfmaster PI - and with a
little extra work - the Surfmaster PI Pro commercial detectors.  Get it
working and it can sense stuff to 10" or better and is an awesome beach
detector (even in wet sand).  It gets kids thinking of circuits in sections
and if you get it working both parents and kids will be proud of their
efforts.

Build/use this and then start to think about iron (trash) discrimination
with pulse detectors (hard), coil designs of your own, pinpointers, binaural
sound headphones (Terry S.)...  
Read on www.geotech1.com about this and the other designs sold on the above
site.  Or if all you care about is synth design, wear a ring and convert
detected signal amplitude to VCO or whatever control voltage... and you have
a new controller design. (build two - one for vco another for vcf, or... oh
now I got myself going too :-(    )

Barry

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Martin Klang
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 07:06
To: Monse Lozano
Cc: Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids


I'll second the Atari/Vibrati Punk Console - great little project, self
contained, easy enough to do in a group, and everyone loves a bit of noise
right!

http://lushprojects.com/vpc/

I built one with my 13yr nephew, he loved it and immediately came up with
ideas to extend it.

/m

On 22 May 2013, at 00:07, Monse Lozano wrote:

> Thanks for the good info, sure I'll keep you posted on how it goes, I plan
on posting some of the projects and videos online.
> 

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Wed May 22 18:07:52 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 18:07:52 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <E7BE918AD3794A0A85CB67A432EAD35D@TIM>
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>
	<E7BE918AD3794A0A85CB67A432EAD35D@TIM>
Message-ID: <519CED58.7070908@mnet-online.de>

Am 22.05.2013 17:05, schrieb Tim Daugard:
> How about the classic chirping bird transistor circuit?
The parents would kill you :-)



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed May 22 18:20:38 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 09:20:38 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electronics class for kids
In-Reply-To: <006201ce56fe$210b6580$63223080$@cox.net>
References: <BLU174-W13118B865113207D4F6B25ABA80@phx.gbl>,
	<18B46190117D44FAABA81A55ED242941@galvanox01>,
	<CAKhtw4jt3LBG9RQsQNVrRSrMz=G_FyeW_P4CWFPCsG33vto_kg@mail.gmail.com>	<BLU174-W130351867F73BBD8B35B63ABA80@phx.gbl><E92B3195-B720-4149-BB34-CFF3A60AA164@pingdynasty.com>
	<006201ce56fe$210b6580$63223080$@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B0E57EE7623644959C287C1F97F2F95E@galvanox01>

Don't forget the many books of Forrest Mimms, which include lots of small,
simple noisemaker circuits.  The Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab is
also pretty good, and is based on Mimms's books.



From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Thu May 23 05:34:06 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 23:34:06 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Thomas Organ-californian 263???
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP381E054B7CA0AFCC953C151C8AA0@phx.gbl>


I just got this great organ.

The feature list is a mile long.

BUT i cant find any schematics or 
Operating manuals.


Anyone here a Thomas organ user/tech/fan??


Thanks!



Sent from my iPhone


From orenlevysticky at gmail.com  Thu May 23 06:24:44 2013
From: orenlevysticky at gmail.com (Gmail)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 21:24:44 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Thomas Organ-californian 263???
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP381E054B7CA0AFCC953C151C8AA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU0-SMTP381E054B7CA0AFCC953C151C8AA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E73BD743-481E-4015-9E51-348154F08501@gmail.com>

They are all pretty much the same. High frequency oscillator with a bunch of divide down circuits (either discrete or IC) to make the rest of the fundamentals. A lot like a Farfisa.


America!

Sent from my iPhone

On May 22, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Dan Snazelle <subjectivity at hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I just got this great organ.
> 
> The feature list is a mile long.
> 
> BUT i cant find any schematics or 
> Operating manuals.
> 
> 
> Anyone here a Thomas organ user/tech/fan??
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From barryklein at cox.net  Thu May 23 16:52:08 2013
From: barryklein at cox.net (Barry Klein)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 07:52:08 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Somebody got a good deal...
References: <CD35C376.D63D%phil.macphail@liivatera.com><ACF79EEE-28E9-4AB8-A6B3-F24160064434@earthlink.net><51103BD6.6080206@ntlworld.com><6016B8A7FE674EEDB5E29F5813440766@c57d><1360020907.511045ab8222b@webmail.chariot.com.au><C88FA63F-EDF9-44A2-9EEE-EA16500C270A@earthlink.net>
	<BLU0-SMTP4677C2E42A5F5733C7EABEAC8000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8A993FC2125A44208E49DB4954F30EAC@TOSHIBALAPTOP>

Good deals are still to be had - but I missed this one:

WOW! 1984 Moog Memorymoog/auto tune - Craigslist
lafayette.craigslist.org
lafayette.craigslist.org/msg/3807607996.html
     WOW! 1984 Moog Memorymoog/auto tune - Craigslist
      May 15, 2013 ... 1984 Moog Memorymoog/auto tune - $350. image 1. This 
is a rare synthesizer from the early 80's Its in non working condition.The 
fans blow but ...
      lafayette.craigslist.org
      lafayette.craigslist.org/msg/3807607996.html



From tokalo at videotron.ca  Fri May 24 13:57:50 2013
From: tokalo at videotron.ca (Tony Kalomiris)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 07:57:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Somebody got a good deal...
In-Reply-To: <8A993FC2125A44208E49DB4954F30EAC@TOSHIBALAPTOP>
References: <CD35C376.D63D%phil.macphail@liivatera.com>
	<ACF79EEE-28E9-4AB8-A6B3-F24160064434@earthlink.net>
	<51103BD6.6080206@ntlworld.com> <6016B8A7FE674EEDB5E29F5813440766@c57d>
	<1360020907.511045ab8222b@webmail.chariot.com.au>
	<C88FA63F-EDF9-44A2-9EEE-EA16500C270A@earthlink.net>
	<BLU0-SMTP4677C2E42A5F5733C7EABEAC8000@phx.gbl>
	<8A993FC2125A44208E49DB4954F30EAC@TOSHIBALAPTOP>
Message-ID: <87F8E056-3500-4374-8B17-BA39474E8B35@videotron.ca>

Probably missing all the CEM chips. Still....

TK
On 2013-05-23, at 10:52 AM, Barry Klein wrote:

> Good deals are still to be had - but I missed this one:
> 
> WOW! 1984 Moog Memorymoog/auto tune - Craigslist
> lafayette.craigslist.org
> lafayette.craigslist.org/msg/3807607996.html
>    WOW! 1984 Moog Memorymoog/auto tune - Craigslist
>     May 15, 2013 ... 1984 Moog Memorymoog/auto tune - $350. image 1. This is a rare synthesizer from the early 80's Its in non working condition.The fans blow but ...
>     lafayette.craigslist.org
>     lafayette.craigslist.org/msg/3807607996.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From rw at firstpr.com.au  Sat May 25 08:29:08 2013
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 16:29:08 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces not
 shown as such in the selector chart
Message-ID: <51A05A34.6090707@firstpr.com.au>

For those unfamiliar with the dsPIC33F series, these microcontrollers
cost a few dollars and have a 40MIPS 16 bit CPU which can be used, with
care, to do a full multiply accumulate, with all fetching and storing,
pipelined so this occurs in a single instruction cycle.

A particularly interesting aspect of these it that some have a good (so
I believe, it has been mentioned on this list - I haven't used it yet)
sigma-delta stereo audio DAC on board and that some of these devices are
in 28 pin DIP packages.

They don't have matching audio ADCs - just conventional 12bit successive
approximation ADCs.  This raises a question of how we can connect an
external audio ADC.  This leads to the question of whether these devices
have a "Codec Interface" - a section which connects with a few wires and
the I2S protocol to an ADC, DAC or CODEC.  This section does DMA to
circular RAM buffers and interrupts so it can be used without much CPU
intervention.


I reported this problem to Microchip in May 2010 but never got a reply.
 The problem remains and I reported it to them at
webcorrections at microchip.com again today, requesting that they reply.

The selector chart at:

  http://www.microchip.com/ParamChartSearch/chart.aspx?branchID=8192&mid=14

and the individual device webpages which are linked to from this are all
erroneous for the devices listed below, in that these devices DO HAVE a
"Codec Interface" AKA "Data Converter Interface" AKA DCI, which can be
used to connect to I2S interfaces on (typically) stereo audio
sigma-delta DACs, ADCs or Codecs (both DAC and ADC).  This can be
verified by looking "DCI" in the include files for each device which are
part of the MPLAB (not MPLAB-X . . . which I and other people have found
difficult to use).  This chart and the associated webpages indicate that
these chips DON'T have this interface.

These devices are all covered by the one datasheet:

  http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70292G.pdf

Here are the chips with a few pertinent details.  This will only look
good with a fixed width font.  The sizes for Program and Data RAM are
bytes, so divide by 2 to get 16 bit words.  For most of the devices, 2k
words can be used by DMA.

The DAC pins refers to the 16 bit sigma-delta stereo audio DAC which
some devices have.  Both the 4 and 6 pin options are fine for stereo.

                   Pins                  Prog  Data  DAC
dsPIC33FJ128GP804  44 QFN TQFP           128     16    6
dsPIC33FJ128GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128     16    4

dsPIC33FJ128GP204  44 QFN TQFP           128      8    -
dsPIC33FJ128GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128      8    -

 dsPIC33FJ64GP804  44 QFN TQFP            64     16    6
 dsPIC33FJ64GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64     16    4

 dsPIC33FJ64GP204  44 QFN TQFP            64      8    -
 dsPIC33FJ64GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64      8    -

 dsPIC33FJ32GP304  44 QFN TQFP            32      4    -
 dsPIC33FJ32GP302  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    32      4    -


The 28 pin DIP devices are of particular interest since they can be used
without SMD heroics.

There's no such thing, as far as I know, as an I2C ADC or CODEC which is
in a DIP package.  SOIC is the only chip package which I think can be
hand-soldered without SMD heroics.  There are a few such ADCs:

  TI (ex Burr Brown) PCM1801:    5V SOIC 14 pins
  Wolfson WM8738:              3.3V SOIC 14 pins
  Wolfson WM8783:              3.3V SOIC  8 pins

The Wolfson devices are listed here:

  http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/adcs/

and are available at Mouser and/or Farnell/element14.  They are
inexpensive, such as, for the 8 pin WM8738, AUD$2.48 (Q 1 - 9) at
element14 (in stock) and at Mouser (not yet in stock) $1.12 (Q 100+)

I find it easy to hand solder an 8 pin SOIC.  I will be investigating
the WM8783 since the WM8738 has no obvious advantages over it.  As far
as I can tell, it should be straightforward to interface the WM8783 with
the dsPIC33FJ128GP802.

  - Robin



From rw at firstpr.com.au  Sat May 25 08:47:11 2013
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 16:47:11 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces
 not shown as such in the selector chart
In-Reply-To: <29903554-EF3F-4FA7-9921-F22250950A34@cox.net>
References: <51A05A34.6090707@firstpr.com.au>
	<29903554-EF3F-4FA7-9921-F22250950A34@cox.net>
Message-ID: <51A05E6F.4040406@firstpr.com.au>

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the link to your project:

  http://ebrombaugh.studionebula.com/synth/dsPIC_sp/index.html

Here is a correction to what I wrote about the Wolfson ADCs - I wrote
that the 14 pin device had no advantages over the 8 pin device.

  http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/adcs/

The 8 pin device has a poorer distortion figure, but a better signal to
noise ratio.  They both output 24 bits, but the lowest 8 or so bits of
this would be noise:

         SOIC pins   SNR dB    THD db

  WM8738        14       90    -87
  WM8783         8       95    -83

Both have a maximum signal level of 1V RMS, but the 14 pin device needs
its analogue supply to be 5 volts to accept this.  If it runs at 3.3
volts, then the maximum signal level would be less.  The 8 pin device
uses 3.3V for its digital and analogue supply.

I had not heard of Wolfson before.  I never expected to be buying DACs
or ADCs from a company headquartered in Edinburgh - I always regarded
this an art more at home in the USA (Burr Brown and Crystal - who I
think pioneered sigma-delta ADCs and DACs with AKM) and Japan (AKM).

 - Robin



From martin at martinfay.com  Sat May 25 09:27:31 2013
From: martin at martinfay.com (Martin Fay)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 08:27:31 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces
	not shown as such in the selector chart
In-Reply-To: <51A05E6F.4040406@firstpr.com.au>
References: <51A05A34.6090707@firstpr.com.au>
	<29903554-EF3F-4FA7-9921-F22250950A34@cox.net>
	<51A05E6F.4040406@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <17571E6E-D82A-4790-A654-47FE7D40C71B@martinfay.com>

Hi Robin,

I've regularly seen Wolfson mentioned as supplying components for iPods.

Martin

Sent from my iPhone

On 25 May 2013, at 07:47, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:

> Hi Eric,
>
> Thanks for the link to your project:
>
>  http://ebrombaugh.studionebula.com/synth/dsPIC_sp/index.html
>
> Here is a correction to what I wrote about the Wolfson ADCs - I wrote
> that the 14 pin device had no advantages over the 8 pin device.
>
>  http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/adcs/
>
> The 8 pin device has a poorer distortion figure, but a better signal  
> to
> noise ratio.  They both output 24 bits, but the lowest 8 or so bits of
> this would be noise:
>
>         SOIC pins   SNR dB    THD db
>
>  WM8738        14       90    -87
>  WM8783         8       95    -83
>
> Both have a maximum signal level of 1V RMS, but the 14 pin device  
> needs
> its analogue supply to be 5 volts to accept this.  If it runs at 3.3
> volts, then the maximum signal level would be less.  The 8 pin device
> uses 3.3V for its digital and analogue supply.
>
> I had not heard of Wolfson before.  I never expected to be buying DACs
> or ADCs from a company headquartered in Edinburgh - I always regarded
> this an art more at home in the USA (Burr Brown and Crystal - who I
> think pioneered sigma-delta ADCs and DACs with AKM) and Japan (AKM).
>
> - Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tom at electricdruid.net  Sat May 25 11:41:15 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 10:41:15 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces
	not shown as such in the selector chart
In-Reply-To: <51A05A34.6090707@firstpr.com.au>
References: <51A05A34.6090707@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <0E185C11-4A80-4425-9B2C-BA98613A186D@electricdruid.net>

Hi Robin,

Sorry, I don't understand this email. You've confused me.

I don't get what the problem is that you reported to Microchip. You mention having reported it, but not what it was.
Then you say that the data sheets for a list of devices are erroneous, because they don't mention DCI. Except that some of them do. Are you saying that Microchip list it when it isn't there, or that they don't list it when it is? Or something else?

I think maybe I need another cup of tea this morning. I'm not getting it.

Thanks!
Tom

PS: MPLAB X isn't so bad once you get into it. I used it all winter. It still isn't finished yet , though. The worst flaw I found was that the simulator updates so infrequently as to be useless. I need to know *after each instruction* what the values of variables and memory locations are, and it only seems to update every four or five instructions or worse.

On 25 May 2013, at 07:29, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:

> For those unfamiliar with the dsPIC33F series, these microcontrollers
> cost a few dollars and have a 40MIPS 16 bit CPU which can be used, with
> care, to do a full multiply accumulate, with all fetching and storing,
> pipelined so this occurs in a single instruction cycle.
> 
> A particularly interesting aspect of these it that some have a good (so
> I believe, it has been mentioned on this list - I haven't used it yet)
> sigma-delta stereo audio DAC on board and that some of these devices are
> in 28 pin DIP packages.
> 
> They don't have matching audio ADCs - just conventional 12bit successive
> approximation ADCs.  This raises a question of how we can connect an
> external audio ADC.  This leads to the question of whether these devices
> have a "Codec Interface" - a section which connects with a few wires and
> the I2S protocol to an ADC, DAC or CODEC.  This section does DMA to
> circular RAM buffers and interrupts so it can be used without much CPU
> intervention.
> 
> 
> I reported this problem to Microchip in May 2010 but never got a reply.
> The problem remains and I reported it to them at
> webcorrections at microchip.com again today, requesting that they reply.
> 
> The selector chart at:
> 
>  http://www.microchip.com/ParamChartSearch/chart.aspx?branchID=8192&mid=14
> 
> and the individual device webpages which are linked to from this are all
> erroneous for the devices listed below, in that these devices DO HAVE a
> "Codec Interface" AKA "Data Converter Interface" AKA DCI, which can be
> used to connect to I2S interfaces on (typically) stereo audio
> sigma-delta DACs, ADCs or Codecs (both DAC and ADC).  This can be
> verified by looking "DCI" in the include files for each device which are
> part of the MPLAB (not MPLAB-X . . . which I and other people have found
> difficult to use).  This chart and the associated webpages indicate that
> these chips DON'T have this interface.
> 
> These devices are all covered by the one datasheet:
> 
>  http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70292G.pdf
> 
> Here are the chips with a few pertinent details.  This will only look
> good with a fixed width font.  The sizes for Program and Data RAM are
> bytes, so divide by 2 to get 16 bit words.  For most of the devices, 2k
> words can be used by DMA.
> 
> The DAC pins refers to the 16 bit sigma-delta stereo audio DAC which
> some devices have.  Both the 4 and 6 pin options are fine for stereo.
> 
>                   Pins                  Prog  Data  DAC
> dsPIC33FJ128GP804  44 QFN TQFP           128     16    6
> dsPIC33FJ128GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128     16    4
> 
> dsPIC33FJ128GP204  44 QFN TQFP           128      8    -
> dsPIC33FJ128GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128      8    -
> 
> dsPIC33FJ64GP804  44 QFN TQFP            64     16    6
> dsPIC33FJ64GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64     16    4
> 
> dsPIC33FJ64GP204  44 QFN TQFP            64      8    -
> dsPIC33FJ64GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64      8    -
> 
> dsPIC33FJ32GP304  44 QFN TQFP            32      4    -
> dsPIC33FJ32GP302  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    32      4    -
> 
> 
> The 28 pin DIP devices are of particular interest since they can be used
> without SMD heroics.
> 
> There's no such thing, as far as I know, as an I2C ADC or CODEC which is
> in a DIP package.  SOIC is the only chip package which I think can be
> hand-soldered without SMD heroics.  There are a few such ADCs:
> 
>  TI (ex Burr Brown) PCM1801:    5V SOIC 14 pins
>  Wolfson WM8738:              3.3V SOIC 14 pins
>  Wolfson WM8783:              3.3V SOIC  8 pins
> 
> The Wolfson devices are listed here:
> 
>  http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/adcs/
> 
> and are available at Mouser and/or Farnell/element14.  They are
> inexpensive, such as, for the 8 pin WM8738, AUD$2.48 (Q 1 - 9) at
> element14 (in stock) and at Mouser (not yet in stock) $1.12 (Q 100+)
> 
> I find it easy to hand solder an 8 pin SOIC.  I will be investigating
> the WM8783 since the WM8738 has no obvious advantages over it.  As far
> as I can tell, it should be straightforward to interface the WM8783 with
> the dsPIC33FJ128GP802.
> 
>  - Robin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From rw at firstpr.com.au  Sat May 25 12:34:01 2013
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 20:34:01 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces
 not shown as such in the selector chart
In-Reply-To: <0E185C11-4A80-4425-9B2C-BA98613A186D@electricdruid.net>
References: <51A05A34.6090707@firstpr.com.au>
	<0E185C11-4A80-4425-9B2C-BA98613A186D@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <51A09399.4000909@firstpr.com.au>

Hi Tom,

The problem is that the selector chart and the individual web pages for
the devices state that these devices do not have a DCI interface, when
in fact they do.  The datasheet is correct in stating that they do.

Someone told me recently that couldn't think without a cup of tea.  That
was my experience too.  My mornings and days in general are clearer and
more productive since I stopped using caffeine in 2004.  I quite often
have good ideas lying in bed in the morning, or in the first hour or so
after getting up - putting things together in ways I had not thought of
the day before.  There's something loose about the first hour or two.
Newspaper headlines are at first seen to mean something more bizarre
than they actually are.  Fresh combinations of ideas about electronics,
molding epoxy composite dummy heads for binaural microphones, physics
etc. float into my brain.  Not all of them survive later scrutiny.

You wrote:

> PS: MPLAB X isn't so bad once you get into it. I used it all winter.
> It still isn't finished yet , though. The worst flaw I found was that
> the simulator updates so infrequently as to be useless. I need to
> know *after each instruction* what the values of variables and memory
> locations are, and it only seems to update every four or five
> instructions or worse.

I gave up on MPLAB-X 1.70 on March 13th when it would not recognize
breakpoints:

  http://www.microchip.com/forums/m698959.aspx

I also found there was no way of specifying a Watch for a program
variable by name.

Both these faults were completely prohibitive.  So I went back to
ordinary MPLAB.  The forum has many reports of unusability, such as:

  http://www.microchip.com/forums/m725214.aspx

I haven't tried 1.80 which was released on May 7th.

  - Robin


On 2013-05-25 7:41 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> Hi Robin,
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand this email. You've confused me.
> 
> I don't get what the problem is that you reported to Microchip. You mention having reported it, but not what it was.
> Then you say that the data sheets for a list of devices are erroneous, because they don't mention DCI. Except that some of them do. Are you saying that Microchip list it when it isn't there, or that they don't list it when it is? Or something else?
> 
> I think maybe I need another cup of tea this morning. I'm not getting it.
> 
> Thanks!
> Tom
> 
> PS: MPLAB X isn't so bad once you get into it. I used it all winter. It still isn't finished yet , though. The worst flaw I found was that the simulator updates so infrequently as to be useless. I need to know *after each instruction* what the values of variables and memory locations are, and it only seems to update every four or five instructions or worse.
> 
> On 25 May 2013, at 07:29, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:
> 
>> For those unfamiliar with the dsPIC33F series, these microcontrollers
>> cost a few dollars and have a 40MIPS 16 bit CPU which can be used, with
>> care, to do a full multiply accumulate, with all fetching and storing,
>> pipelined so this occurs in a single instruction cycle.
>>
>> A particularly interesting aspect of these it that some have a good (so
>> I believe, it has been mentioned on this list - I haven't used it yet)
>> sigma-delta stereo audio DAC on board and that some of these devices are
>> in 28 pin DIP packages.
>>
>> They don't have matching audio ADCs - just conventional 12bit successive
>> approximation ADCs.  This raises a question of how we can connect an
>> external audio ADC.  This leads to the question of whether these devices
>> have a "Codec Interface" - a section which connects with a few wires and
>> the I2S protocol to an ADC, DAC or CODEC.  This section does DMA to
>> circular RAM buffers and interrupts so it can be used without much CPU
>> intervention.
>>
>>
>> I reported this problem to Microchip in May 2010 but never got a reply.
>> The problem remains and I reported it to them at
>> webcorrections at microchip.com again today, requesting that they reply.
>>
>> The selector chart at:
>>
>>  http://www.microchip.com/ParamChartSearch/chart.aspx?branchID=8192&mid=14
>>
>> and the individual device webpages which are linked to from this are all
>> erroneous for the devices listed below, in that these devices DO HAVE a
>> "Codec Interface" AKA "Data Converter Interface" AKA DCI, which can be
>> used to connect to I2S interfaces on (typically) stereo audio
>> sigma-delta DACs, ADCs or Codecs (both DAC and ADC).  This can be
>> verified by looking "DCI" in the include files for each device which are
>> part of the MPLAB (not MPLAB-X . . . which I and other people have found
>> difficult to use).  This chart and the associated webpages indicate that
>> these chips DON'T have this interface.
>>
>> These devices are all covered by the one datasheet:
>>
>>  http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70292G.pdf
>>
>> Here are the chips with a few pertinent details.  This will only look
>> good with a fixed width font.  The sizes for Program and Data RAM are
>> bytes, so divide by 2 to get 16 bit words.  For most of the devices, 2k
>> words can be used by DMA.
>>
>> The DAC pins refers to the 16 bit sigma-delta stereo audio DAC which
>> some devices have.  Both the 4 and 6 pin options are fine for stereo.
>>
>>                   Pins                  Prog  Data  DAC
>> dsPIC33FJ128GP804  44 QFN TQFP           128     16    6
>> dsPIC33FJ128GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128     16    4
>>
>> dsPIC33FJ128GP204  44 QFN TQFP           128      8    -
>> dsPIC33FJ128GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128      8    -
>>
>> dsPIC33FJ64GP804  44 QFN TQFP            64     16    6
>> dsPIC33FJ64GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64     16    4
>>
>> dsPIC33FJ64GP204  44 QFN TQFP            64      8    -
>> dsPIC33FJ64GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64      8    -
>>
>> dsPIC33FJ32GP304  44 QFN TQFP            32      4    -
>> dsPIC33FJ32GP302  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    32      4    -
>>
>>
>> The 28 pin DIP devices are of particular interest since they can be used
>> without SMD heroics.
>>
>> There's no such thing, as far as I know, as an I2C ADC or CODEC which is
>> in a DIP package.  SOIC is the only chip package which I think can be
>> hand-soldered without SMD heroics.  There are a few such ADCs:
>>
>>  TI (ex Burr Brown) PCM1801:    5V SOIC 14 pins
>>  Wolfson WM8738:              3.3V SOIC 14 pins
>>  Wolfson WM8783:              3.3V SOIC  8 pins
>>
>> The Wolfson devices are listed here:
>>
>>  http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/adcs/
>>
>> and are available at Mouser and/or Farnell/element14.  They are
>> inexpensive, such as, for the 8 pin WM8738, AUD$2.48 (Q 1 - 9) at
>> element14 (in stock) and at Mouser (not yet in stock) $1.12 (Q 100+)
>>
>> I find it easy to hand solder an 8 pin SOIC.  I will be investigating
>> the WM8783 since the WM8738 has no obvious advantages over it.  As far
>> as I can tell, it should be straightforward to interface the WM8783 with
>> the dsPIC33FJ128GP802.
>>
>>  - Robin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May 25 13:37:12 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 13:37:12 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces
 not shown as such in the selector chart
In-Reply-To: <51A09399.4000909@firstpr.com.au>
References: <51A05A34.6090707@firstpr.com.au>
	<0E185C11-4A80-4425-9B2C-BA98613A186D@electricdruid.net>
	<51A09399.4000909@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgwUgwD6rXNYqyk_jJ2L8YtWKCrqwjL1-_RkCD46jMpNw@mail.gmail.com>

That's some nice detective work, Robin! Thanks!

On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> The problem is that the selector chart and the individual web pages for
> the devices state that these devices do not have a DCI interface, when
> in fact they do.  The datasheet is correct in stating that they do.
>
> Someone told me recently that couldn't think without a cup of tea.  That
> was my experience too.  My mornings and days in general are clearer and
> more productive since I stopped using caffeine in 2004.  I quite often
> have good ideas lying in bed in the morning, or in the first hour or so
> after getting up - putting things together in ways I had not thought of
> the day before.  There's something loose about the first hour or two.
> Newspaper headlines are at first seen to mean something more bizarre
> than they actually are.  Fresh combinations of ideas about electronics,
> molding epoxy composite dummy heads for binaural microphones, physics
> etc. float into my brain.  Not all of them survive later scrutiny.
>
> You wrote:
>
>> PS: MPLAB X isn't so bad once you get into it. I used it all winter.
>> It still isn't finished yet , though. The worst flaw I found was that
>> the simulator updates so infrequently as to be useless. I need to
>> know *after each instruction* what the values of variables and memory
>> locations are, and it only seems to update every four or five
>> instructions or worse.
>
> I gave up on MPLAB-X 1.70 on March 13th when it would not recognize
> breakpoints:
>
>   http://www.microchip.com/forums/m698959.aspx
>
> I also found there was no way of specifying a Watch for a program
> variable by name.
>
> Both these faults were completely prohibitive.  So I went back to
> ordinary MPLAB.  The forum has many reports of unusability, such as:
>
>   http://www.microchip.com/forums/m725214.aspx
>
> I haven't tried 1.80 which was released on May 7th.
>
>   - Robin
>
>
> On 2013-05-25 7:41 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>> Hi Robin,
>>
>> Sorry, I don't understand this email. You've confused me.
>>
>> I don't get what the problem is that you reported to Microchip. You mention having reported it, but not what it was.
>> Then you say that the data sheets for a list of devices are erroneous, because they don't mention DCI. Except that some of them do. Are you saying that Microchip list it when it isn't there, or that they don't list it when it is? Or something else?
>>
>> I think maybe I need another cup of tea this morning. I'm not getting it.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Tom
>>
>> PS: MPLAB X isn't so bad once you get into it. I used it all winter. It still isn't finished yet , though. The worst flaw I found was that the simulator updates so infrequently as to be useless. I need to know *after each instruction* what the values of variables and memory locations are, and it only seems to update every four or five instructions or worse.
>>
>> On 25 May 2013, at 07:29, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> For those unfamiliar with the dsPIC33F series, these microcontrollers
>>> cost a few dollars and have a 40MIPS 16 bit CPU which can be used, with
>>> care, to do a full multiply accumulate, with all fetching and storing,
>>> pipelined so this occurs in a single instruction cycle.
>>>
>>> A particularly interesting aspect of these it that some have a good (so
>>> I believe, it has been mentioned on this list - I haven't used it yet)
>>> sigma-delta stereo audio DAC on board and that some of these devices are
>>> in 28 pin DIP packages.
>>>
>>> They don't have matching audio ADCs - just conventional 12bit successive
>>> approximation ADCs.  This raises a question of how we can connect an
>>> external audio ADC.  This leads to the question of whether these devices
>>> have a "Codec Interface" - a section which connects with a few wires and
>>> the I2S protocol to an ADC, DAC or CODEC.  This section does DMA to
>>> circular RAM buffers and interrupts so it can be used without much CPU
>>> intervention.
>>>
>>>
>>> I reported this problem to Microchip in May 2010 but never got a reply.
>>> The problem remains and I reported it to them at
>>> webcorrections at microchip.com again today, requesting that they reply.
>>>
>>> The selector chart at:
>>>
>>>  http://www.microchip.com/ParamChartSearch/chart.aspx?branchID=8192&mid=14
>>>
>>> and the individual device webpages which are linked to from this are all
>>> erroneous for the devices listed below, in that these devices DO HAVE a
>>> "Codec Interface" AKA "Data Converter Interface" AKA DCI, which can be
>>> used to connect to I2S interfaces on (typically) stereo audio
>>> sigma-delta DACs, ADCs or Codecs (both DAC and ADC).  This can be
>>> verified by looking "DCI" in the include files for each device which are
>>> part of the MPLAB (not MPLAB-X . . . which I and other people have found
>>> difficult to use).  This chart and the associated webpages indicate that
>>> these chips DON'T have this interface.
>>>
>>> These devices are all covered by the one datasheet:
>>>
>>>  http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70292G.pdf
>>>
>>> Here are the chips with a few pertinent details.  This will only look
>>> good with a fixed width font.  The sizes for Program and Data RAM are
>>> bytes, so divide by 2 to get 16 bit words.  For most of the devices, 2k
>>> words can be used by DMA.
>>>
>>> The DAC pins refers to the 16 bit sigma-delta stereo audio DAC which
>>> some devices have.  Both the 4 and 6 pin options are fine for stereo.
>>>
>>>                   Pins                  Prog  Data  DAC
>>> dsPIC33FJ128GP804  44 QFN TQFP           128     16    6
>>> dsPIC33FJ128GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128     16    4
>>>
>>> dsPIC33FJ128GP204  44 QFN TQFP           128      8    -
>>> dsPIC33FJ128GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128      8    -
>>>
>>> dsPIC33FJ64GP804  44 QFN TQFP            64     16    6
>>> dsPIC33FJ64GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64     16    4
>>>
>>> dsPIC33FJ64GP204  44 QFN TQFP            64      8    -
>>> dsPIC33FJ64GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64      8    -
>>>
>>> dsPIC33FJ32GP304  44 QFN TQFP            32      4    -
>>> dsPIC33FJ32GP302  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    32      4    -
>>>
>>>
>>> The 28 pin DIP devices are of particular interest since they can be used
>>> without SMD heroics.
>>>
>>> There's no such thing, as far as I know, as an I2C ADC or CODEC which is
>>> in a DIP package.  SOIC is the only chip package which I think can be
>>> hand-soldered without SMD heroics.  There are a few such ADCs:
>>>
>>>  TI (ex Burr Brown) PCM1801:    5V SOIC 14 pins
>>>  Wolfson WM8738:              3.3V SOIC 14 pins
>>>  Wolfson WM8783:              3.3V SOIC  8 pins
>>>
>>> The Wolfson devices are listed here:
>>>
>>>  http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/adcs/
>>>
>>> and are available at Mouser and/or Farnell/element14.  They are
>>> inexpensive, such as, for the 8 pin WM8738, AUD$2.48 (Q 1 - 9) at
>>> element14 (in stock) and at Mouser (not yet in stock) $1.12 (Q 100+)
>>>
>>> I find it easy to hand solder an 8 pin SOIC.  I will be investigating
>>> the WM8783 since the WM8738 has no obvious advantages over it.  As far
>>> as I can tell, it should be straightforward to interface the WM8783 with
>>> the dsPIC33FJ128GP802.
>>>
>>>  - Robin
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May 25 14:01:45 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 14:01:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Sleep and creativity, was: SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F ...
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiHYcgPrbLGFYaUqk_2HXHLwwWrhPfhe5ymQEKyNE6zzA@mail.gmail.com>

Robin,

On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:
> Someone told me recently that couldn't think without a cup of tea.  That
> was my experience too.  My mornings and days in general are clearer and
> more productive since I stopped using caffeine in 2004.  I quite often
> have good ideas lying in bed in the morning, or in the first hour or so
> after getting up - putting things together in ways I had not thought of
> the day before.  There's something loose about the first hour or two.
> Newspaper headlines are at first seen to mean something more bizarre
> than they actually are.  Fresh combinations of ideas about electronics,
> molding epoxy composite dummy heads for binaural microphones, physics
> etc. float into my brain.  Not all of them survive later scrutiny.

That is my experience as well - however only if I'm sleep-deprived. If
I am well-slept, this kind of creativity lasts the whole day (even
into the late evening) and is usually better "quality". However,
sometimes it's good to be erroneous, because it liberates us from the
limits we impose upon ourselves by trusting our understanding of
things.

On a separate note, I noticed that if it gets very late into the
night, things sometimes sound different, and music just flows better
on the keyboard. So if I normally go to sleep around midnight, and
then stay up until 1 am a couple of days, and then on the next day
stay up until 3 am, I get that effect. Can this have to do with my
mind going into some specific sleep cycles while I'm still awake? This
effect is usually followed by longer periods of mental inactivity
coupled with physical activity. Sometimes it's playing simple music
(not really an analytic thing) for several hours into the night.
Yesterday it was that I went out to party, came back to the office to
pick up my bike at around 2-3 into the night, and then noticed that
the next train is in almost an hour, so I cycled back home (which
takes about 30-40 minutes). That was also a situation where I could
"zone out" for a longer period of time, so I can easily imagine my
mind slowly preparing for sleep. Similarly to how most people like to
"quiet down" before going to sleep (they try to be in a silent
environment).

One thing I noticed yesterday (early morning today) when walking up a
concrete staircase with my bike and cleat shoes (that have metal
plates in the sole) was how extremely loud the reverb was. I'll
postulate: maybe it's that the sound environment we are usually
surrounded with gets cancelled out by our auditory system before it's
analyzed? For a couple examples, my new office is located next to
train tracks, and at first the sound of trains whizzing by was
annoying, but now I don't notice it so much anymore. We have a
colleague who likes very loud arguments, and it was extremely
difficult to fathom, but now I'm slowly adjusting. Maybe right before
sleep or during sleep that "noise filter" shuts down, and we're
presented with the full and uncensored auditory image of what we're
listening to?

This is a question for a psycho-acoustics expert. I believe
"ecological acoustics" is a sub-field which might be interested in
this kind of questions.

Cheers,
D.


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sat May 25 15:48:48 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 15:48:48 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]  Triac waveshaper?
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUg=oi_ffZaHnM29aQudP-kGp26Y_dnx-=Rk2=bGZfjgBw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,
I have been wondering whether anyone here has tried using a triac as a
wave shaper. The below animation got me thinking.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Triac_funktion.gif

Cheers,
D.


From music.maker at gte.net  Sat May 25 17:26:05 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 08:26:05 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec
	interfaces	not shown as such in the selector chart
Message-ID: <201305251526.r4PFQ5ev004385@linux7.lan>


Hi Robin and Tom,

For me, Microchip documentation has always been a bit weird.  I remember going through
this exercise awhile back and made the determination at the time that dsPIC33FJ128GP802
(which is a 28 pin DIP part) did not have the DCI module.  I can't remember how I came to
that conclusion, but today I looked at the ASM30 supplied file p33FJ128GP802.inc and it
clearly has references to the DCI module registers and register bits.  Now I'm somewhat
befuddled again about this.  I've got a project that I'd prefer to do with
dsPIC33FJ128GP802, but I need the DCI.  Is there, in fact, a DCI module in this part?

I had never seen that part selector page before, it is indeed in error.

Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>Hi Robin,
>
>Sorry, I don't understand this email. You've confused me.
>
>I don't get what the problem is that you reported to Microchip. 
>You mention having reported it, but not what it was. Then you say 
>that the data sheets for a list of devices are erroneous, because 
>they don't mention DCI. Except that some of them do. Are you 
>saying that Microchip list it when it isn't there, or that they 
>don't list it when it is? Or something else? 
>
>I think maybe I need another cup of tea this morning. I'm not getting it.
>
>Thanks!
>Tom
>
>PS: MPLAB X isn't so bad once you get into it. I used it all 
>winter. It still isn't finished yet , though. The worst flaw I 
>found was that the simulator updates so infrequently as to be 
>useless. I need to know *after each instruction* what the values 
>of variables and memory locations are, and it only seems to 
>update every four or five instructions or worse. 
>
>On 25 May 2013, at 07:29, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:
>
>> For those unfamiliar with the dsPIC33F series, these microcontrollers
>> cost a few dollars and have a 40MIPS 16 bit CPU which can be used, with
>> care, to do a full multiply accumulate, with all fetching and storing,
>> pipelined so this occurs in a single instruction cycle.
>> 
>> A particularly interesting aspect of these it that some have a good (so
>> I believe, it has been mentioned on this list - I haven't used it yet)
>> sigma-delta stereo audio DAC on board and that some of these devices are
>> in 28 pin DIP packages.
>> 
>> They don't have matching audio ADCs - just conventional 12bit successive
>> approximation ADCs.  This raises a question of how we can connect an
>> external audio ADC.  This leads to the question of whether these devices
>> have a "Codec Interface" - a section which connects with a few wires and
>> the I2S protocol to an ADC, DAC or CODEC.  This section does DMA to
>> circular RAM buffers and interrupts so it can be used without much CPU
>> intervention.
>> 
>> 
>> I reported this problem to Microchip in May 2010 but never got a reply.
>> The problem remains and I reported it to them at
>> webcorrections at microchip.com again today, requesting that they reply.
>> 
>> The selector chart at:
>> 
>>  http://www.microchip.com/ParamChartSearch/chart.aspx?branchID=8192&mid=14
>> 
>> and the individual device webpages which are linked to from this are all
>> erroneous for the devices listed below, in that these devices DO HAVE a
>> "Codec Interface" AKA "Data Converter Interface" AKA DCI, which can be
>> used to connect to I2S interfaces on (typically) stereo audio
>> sigma-delta DACs, ADCs or Codecs (both DAC and ADC).  This can be
>> verified by looking "DCI" in the include files for each device which are
>> part of the MPLAB (not MPLAB-X . . . which I and other people have found
>> difficult to use).  This chart and the associated webpages indicate that
>> these chips DON'T have this interface.
>> 
>> These devices are all covered by the one datasheet:
>> 
>>  http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70292G.pdf
>> 
>> Here are the chips with a few pertinent details.  This will only look
>> good with a fixed width font.  The sizes for Program and Data RAM are
>> bytes, so divide by 2 to get 16 bit words.  For most of the devices, 2k
>> words can be used by DMA.
>> 
>> The DAC pins refers to the 16 bit sigma-delta stereo audio DAC which
>> some devices have.  Both the 4 and 6 pin options are fine for stereo.
>> 
>>                   Pins                  Prog  Data  DAC
>> dsPIC33FJ128GP804  44 QFN TQFP           128     16    6
>> dsPIC33FJ128GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128     16    4
>> 
>> dsPIC33FJ128GP204  44 QFN TQFP           128      8    -
>> dsPIC33FJ128GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S   128      8    -
>> 
>> dsPIC33FJ64GP804  44 QFN TQFP            64     16    6
>> dsPIC33FJ64GP802  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64     16    4
>> 
>> dsPIC33FJ64GP204  44 QFN TQFP            64      8    -
>> dsPIC33FJ64GP202  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    64      8    -
>> 
>> dsPIC33FJ32GP304  44 QFN TQFP            32      4    -
>> dsPIC33FJ32GP302  28 SPDIP SOIC QFN-S    32      4    -
>> 
>> 
>> The 28 pin DIP devices are of particular interest since they can be used
>> without SMD heroics.
>> 
>> There's no such thing, as far as I know, as an I2C ADC or CODEC which is
>> in a DIP package.  SOIC is the only chip package which I think can be
>> hand-soldered without SMD heroics.  There are a few such ADCs:
>> 
>>  TI (ex Burr Brown) PCM1801:    5V SOIC 14 pins
>>  Wolfson WM8738:              3.3V SOIC 14 pins
>>  Wolfson WM8783:              3.3V SOIC  8 pins
>> 
>> The Wolfson devices are listed here:
>> 
>>  http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/adcs/
>> 
>> and are available at Mouser and/or Farnell/element14.  They are
>> inexpensive, such as, for the 8 pin WM8738, AUD$2.48 (Q 1 - 9) at
>> element14 (in stock) and at Mouser (not yet in stock) $1.12 (Q 100+)
>> 
>> I find it easy to hand solder an 8 pin SOIC.  I will be investigating
>> the WM8783 since the WM8738 has no obvious advantages over it.  As far
>> as I can tell, it should be straightforward to interface the WM8783 with
>> the dsPIC33FJ128GP802.
>> 
>>  - Robin
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From rw at firstpr.com.au  Sat May 25 18:24:16 2013
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 02:24:16 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces
 not shown as such in the selector chart
In-Reply-To: <201305251526.r4PFQ5ev004385@linux7.lan>
References: <201305251526.r4PFQ5ev004385@linux7.lan>
Message-ID: <51A0E5B0.2040902@firstpr.com.au>

Hi Scott,

Although I had reported this problem 3 years ago, I forgot and earlier
today spent an hour and a half trying to figure out how to connect to an
I2S ADC with the SPI port!

There definitely is a DCI module in the dsPIC33FJ128GP802.  If you look
in the datasheet:

  http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70292G.pdf

you can see it is so for this device and 9 others, including the
dsPIC33FJ32GP302 which Eric Brombaugh used (with its DCI module) to
connect to a codec:

  http://ebrombaugh.studionebula.com/synth/dsPIC_sp/index.html

Furthermore, with the original MPLAB, if you look in:

C:\Program Files\Microchip\MPLAB ASM30 Suite\Support\dsPIC33F\inc\
p33FJ128GP802.inc lines 612 to 626 concern the DCI registers.


Martin Fay wrote:

> I've regularly seen Wolfson mentioned as supplying components for
> iPods.

Indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfson_Microelectronics .  I have
been living under a rock regarding this company's work - I haven't
pulled apart any iPods or iPhones.

  - Robin



From music.maker at gte.net  Sat May 25 19:11:10 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 10:11:10 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces
 not shown as such in the selector chart
Message-ID: <201305251711.r4PHB9LM006754@linux7.lan>


Hi Robin,

Thank you, awesome.  I (stoopidly) searched for DCI when they had spelled it out as
Data Converter Interface on page 2.  I was confused by that I suppose, I see it now
and I'll continue with the board I started that is 80% completed.  I'm connecting a
CS4270 codec to it.  I have used the internal dsPIC33F 16 bit stereo DAC for another
project and I thought is sounded pertty good.

Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:
>Hi Scott,
>
>Although I had reported this problem 3 years ago, I forgot and earlier
>today spent an hour and a half trying to figure out how to connect to an
>I2S ADC with the SPI port!
>
>There definitely is a DCI module in the dsPIC33FJ128GP802.  If you look
>in the datasheet:
>
>  http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70292G.pdf
>
>you can see it is so for this device and 9 others, including the
>dsPIC33FJ32GP302 which Eric Brombaugh used (with its DCI module) to
>connect to a codec:
>
>  http://ebrombaugh.studionebula.com/synth/dsPIC_sp/index.html
>
>Furthermore, with the original MPLAB, if you look in:
>
>C:\Program Files\Microchip\MPLAB ASM30 Suite\Support\dsPIC33F\inc\
>p33FJ128GP802.inc lines 612 to 626 concern the DCI registers.
>
>
>Martin Fay wrote:
>
>> I've regularly seen Wolfson mentioned as supplying components for
>> iPods.
>
>Indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfson_Microelectronics .  I have
>been living under a rock regarding this company's work - I haven't
>pulled apart any iPods or iPhones.
>
>  - Robin
>

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From tom at electricdruid.net  Sat May 25 22:33:04 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 21:33:04 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] SOIC audio ADCs & dsPIC33F devices with codec interfaces
	not shown as such in the selector chart
In-Reply-To: <51A0E5B0.2040902@firstpr.com.au>
References: <201305251526.r4PFQ5ev004385@linux7.lan>
	<51A0E5B0.2040902@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <F8703AB7-56B0-4B62-B46E-8E71FAFF5995@electricdruid.net>

Absolutely right. Section 20 in the data sheet: "DATA CONVERTER INTERFACE (DCI) MODULE".

T.

PS: Thanks for clarifying earlier, Robin. I get it now. I did have more tea.

On 25 May 2013, at 17:24, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:

> Hi Scott,
> 
> Although I had reported this problem 3 years ago, I forgot and earlier
> today spent an hour and a half trying to figure out how to connect to an
> I2S ADC with the SPI port!
> 
> There definitely is a DCI module in the dsPIC33FJ128GP802.  If you look
> in the datasheet:
> 
>  http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70292G.pdf
> 
> you can see it is so for this device and 9 others, including the
> dsPIC33FJ32GP302 which Eric Brombaugh used (with its DCI module) to
> connect to a codec:
> 
>  http://ebrombaugh.studionebula.com/synth/dsPIC_sp/index.html
> 
> Furthermore, with the original MPLAB, if you look in:
> 
> C:\Program Files\Microchip\MPLAB ASM30 Suite\Support\dsPIC33F\inc\
> p33FJ128GP802.inc lines 612 to 626 concern the DCI registers.
> 
> 
> Martin Fay wrote:
> 
>> I've regularly seen Wolfson mentioned as supplying components for
>> iPods.
> 
> Indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfson_Microelectronics .  I have
> been living under a rock regarding this company's work - I haven't
> pulled apart any iPods or iPhones.
> 
>  - Robin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From bachmanm50 at gmail.com  Sun May 26 01:13:56 2013
From: bachmanm50 at gmail.com (Michael Bachman)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 19:13:56 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] dsPIC in a 40 pin DIP
In-Reply-To: <CACK5CJuNYeiFz3oYRV9EMJQnN8XZDgjSGzP9e9mRqc0C3hmY_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACK5CJuNYeiFz3oYRV9EMJQnN8XZDgjSGzP9e9mRqc0C3hmY_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACK5CJuZ0JpU+ZG0eLTinRfZthanRoNszc=kuuEzakL_-ym1QQ@mail.gmail.com>

 Guys

 I use the dsPIC30F4013.. it is a 40 pin DIP.  Although a bit more costly,
 this series has the built-in EEPROM and runs on standard +5v.

 In my current project, the PIC runs a dual 12 bit DAC for oscillator
 output/control, uses the 4 PWM generators to produce control voltages
 (after some Bessel filters) for PWM modulation, Filter frequency, Q and
 VCA  and there are still pins for MIDI in/out, control pots, selector switches
 and the LCD interface.

 have fun

 Mike


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Sun May 26 10:17:44 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 10:17:44 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] dsPIC in a 40 pin DIP
In-Reply-To: <CACK5CJuZ0JpU+ZG0eLTinRfZthanRoNszc=kuuEzakL_-ym1QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACK5CJuNYeiFz3oYRV9EMJQnN8XZDgjSGzP9e9mRqc0C3hmY_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACK5CJuZ0JpU+ZG0eLTinRfZthanRoNszc=kuuEzakL_-ym1QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhM3We06WjVk=poCeKkNg-xb0MC2gtDRsWVxNn9Xxh2cA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 1:13 AM, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>  PWM generators to produce control voltages for PWM modulation

So I heard you like pulses, so I put a PWM in your PWM so you can
pulse while you pulse.

>  (after some Bessel filters)

You mean Harry? 0:-)

Cheers,
The Bad Joker


From bachmanm50 at gmail.com  Mon May 27 02:08:16 2013
From: bachmanm50 at gmail.com (Michael Bachman)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:08:16 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] What;s going on with that dsPIC ?
Message-ID: <CACK5CJu5b4oZyRuTNWHUUhLi63C=Ss04-=fHQLJfHeCnzW-Zbg@mail.gmail.com>

Tom asked to see a few pix of what state my DIY project(s) are in...
well, I'm still working out all the bugs on the sound card, but I
uploaded some progress to date and the project I just finished to
Flickr.

Take a look if you are curious.. I'll keep updating that set as I progress.

This PCB is a rough one as it is the "debug board".. there was alot of
talk about proto baords and vector boards etc on th email list this
week.. For me, on something this big, I like to go straight to PCB..
yes it is more difficult to change values, but I don't have to wonder
if it is the design or the proto board when I am debugging.  And when
it's done, it is easy to duplicate it to a "clean" copy and use it in
a synth (I have 6 PCBs)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/96442572 at N07/sets/72157633698055196/

Mike

On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> Sounds like a nice project. Have you got any pictures we can see?
>
> Good luck with it either way,
>
> Regards,
> Tom
>
> On 26 May 2013, at 00:13, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Guys
>>
>> I use the dsPIC30F4013.. it is a 40 pin DIP.  Although a bit more costly,
>> this series has the built-in EEPROM and runs on standard +5v.
>>
>> In my current project, the PIC runs a dual 12 bit DAC for oscillator
>> output/control, uses the 4 PWM generators to produce control voltages
>> (after some Bessel filters) for PWM modulation, Filter frequency, Q and
>> VCA  and there are still pins for MIDI in/out, control pots, selector switches
>> and the LCD interface.
>>
>> have fun
>>
>> Mike
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Mon May 27 03:25:50 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 03:25:50 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] What;s going on with that dsPIC ?
In-Reply-To: <CACK5CJu5b4oZyRuTNWHUUhLi63C=Ss04-=fHQLJfHeCnzW-Zbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACK5CJu5b4oZyRuTNWHUUhLi63C=Ss04-=fHQLJfHeCnzW-Zbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhgf2=PwApagQXBqBjMGOndQ_j661UX3thM1sVfeS3vSg@mail.gmail.com>

I really like the case on that "victorian" synth. How did you make it?
Pretty cool!

Got some pics of the front panel? I wonder what parameters you went with.

Can you tell us a bit more about the architecture of the synth?

Also, what is the "sound card"? Is it part of the "victorian"?

D.

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Tom asked to see a few pix of what state my DIY project(s) are in...
> well, I'm still working out all the bugs on the sound card, but I
> uploaded some progress to date and the project I just finished to
> Flickr.
>
> Take a look if you are curious.. I'll keep updating that set as I progress.
>
> This PCB is a rough one as it is the "debug board".. there was alot of
> talk about proto baords and vector boards etc on th email list this
> week.. For me, on something this big, I like to go straight to PCB..
> yes it is more difficult to change values, but I don't have to wonder
> if it is the design or the proto board when I am debugging.  And when
> it's done, it is easy to duplicate it to a "clean" copy and use it in
> a synth (I have 6 PCBs)
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/96442572 at N07/sets/72157633698055196/
>
> Mike
>
> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>> Sounds like a nice project. Have you got any pictures we can see?
>>
>> Good luck with it either way,
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tom
>>
>> On 26 May 2013, at 00:13, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Guys
>>>
>>> I use the dsPIC30F4013.. it is a 40 pin DIP.  Although a bit more costly,
>>> this series has the built-in EEPROM and runs on standard +5v.
>>>
>>> In my current project, the PIC runs a dual 12 bit DAC for oscillator
>>> output/control, uses the 4 PWM generators to produce control voltages
>>> (after some Bessel filters) for PWM modulation, Filter frequency, Q and
>>> VCA  and there are still pins for MIDI in/out, control pots, selector switches
>>> and the LCD interface.
>>>
>>> have fun
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon May 27 06:48:32 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 07:48:32 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] Cambridge weekend reminder
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+ZAUuEb2owmLnT9b+zrq3o93DOrL3d1TCkFQTo3K3O0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

The closing date for overnight room bookings is 20th June. If you want to
stay in college over the weekend please get your bookings in to me before
then.

http://www.diy.synth.net/uk/

Cheers
Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From bachmanm50 at gmail.com  Mon May 27 15:03:27 2013
From: bachmanm50 at gmail.com (Michael Bachman)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 09:03:27 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] What;s going on with that dsPIC ?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhgf2=PwApagQXBqBjMGOndQ_j661UX3thM1sVfeS3vSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACK5CJu5b4oZyRuTNWHUUhLi63C=Ss04-=fHQLJfHeCnzW-Zbg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhgf2=PwApagQXBqBjMGOndQ_j661UX3thM1sVfeS3vSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACK5CJsKngDgBxos8_B5fS23nyqnJkA6GQsHUm1bjZcjYL-T3Q@mail.gmail.com>

D.

Thanks for asking..

Case:
The case was the real "meat" and most difficult part of this project.

The case is solid oak and was cut on my jigsaw, table saw and router.
There are many intricate angles on the toe and heal pieces.
It is built like furniture using glue, pins and clamps.

The curved panel was made by thermoforming  5mm thick plastic over a
simple mold.  Many plastics will become soft at temperature and I just
used my oven.  Some people use hot oil in a pan for a more even
temperature, but I found that far to messy and not necessary.  It took
a few trys and throw aways before I go this one right.  The 5mm
thickness allowed enough thickness to drill and tap the holes for all
the pots and switches.

The panel overlay is a custom printed vinyl to allow it to form over
the curves.  3M 77 adhesive spray worked great

Controls:
I just added this explination of the Victorian Synth panel to Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/96442572 at N07/8853804646/

Guts:
The Victorian is a dual ramp core oscillator, each with a sub octave
generator.  The oscillaors have hard sync and are sent to a simple
ring modulator.    A dedicated LFO provide vibrato to osc 1 and
provides some nice sweeping effects during hard sync

The mixer section has individual levls for all 5 sources above plus white noise.

The filter is a 2 pole low pass with resonance and has its own ASR and
velocity mod input.  It also has a dedicated LFO for cut-off
modulation.

The output stage has a BBD analog delay line with feedback and a basic
VCA with a dedicated ADSR.  Velocity is used to control the ADSR
modulation level.

The Voice Card is not in this synth but will find its way into  a
version 2 and a few other instruments that only exist in my head and
in 3D CAD at this point.

It was a fun build and I am very happy with the one-of-a-kind result

Mike.

On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 9:25 PM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I really like the case on that "victorian" synth. How did you make it?
> Pretty cool!
>
> Got some pics of the front panel? I wonder what parameters you went with.
>
> Can you tell us a bit more about the architecture of the synth?
>
> Also, what is the "sound card"? Is it part of the "victorian"?
>
> D.
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tom asked to see a few pix of what state my DIY project(s) are in...
>> well, I'm still working out all the bugs on the sound card, but I
>> uploaded some progress to date and the project I just finished to
>> Flickr.
>>
>> Take a look if you are curious.. I'll keep updating that set as I progress.
>>
>> This PCB is a rough one as it is the "debug board".. there was alot of
>> talk about proto baords and vector boards etc on th email list this
>> week.. For me, on something this big, I like to go straight to PCB..
>> yes it is more difficult to change values, but I don't have to wonder
>> if it is the design or the proto board when I am debugging.  And when
>> it's done, it is easy to duplicate it to a "clean" copy and use it in
>> a synth (I have 6 PCBs)
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/96442572 at N07/sets/72157633698055196/
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>>> Sounds like a nice project. Have you got any pictures we can see?
>>>
>>> Good luck with it either way,
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On 26 May 2013, at 00:13, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Guys
>>>>
>>>> I use the dsPIC30F4013.. it is a 40 pin DIP.  Although a bit more costly,
>>>> this series has the built-in EEPROM and runs on standard +5v.
>>>>
>>>> In my current project, the PIC runs a dual 12 bit DAC for oscillator
>>>> output/control, uses the 4 PWM generators to produce control voltages
>>>> (after some Bessel filters) for PWM modulation, Filter frequency, Q and
>>>> VCA  and there are still pins for MIDI in/out, control pots, selector switches
>>>> and the LCD interface.
>>>>
>>>> have fun
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From rw at firstpr.com.au  Mon May 27 15:49:00 2013
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 23:49:00 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] KiCad early success: guide dots for drilling homemade PCBs
Message-ID: <51A3644C.6030605@firstpr.com.au>

I am exploring the open source Kicad schematic - PCB - Gerber system and
so far am most encouraged by its ease of use, functionality and
documentation:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kicad
  https://launchpad.net/kicad

Thanks to Veronica Merryfield and others who wrote to this list about
their KiCad experiences - including Eric Brombaugh who wrote a great
comparison of KiCad and gEda, the two most prominent complete
open-source schematic-PCB systems:

  http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/pipermail/synth-diy/2011-February/030929.html

It is my impression that the documentation is is well-written,
well-illustrated and generally up-to-date with the software.   The
documentation is in PDF files.  (Eagle documentation is all text - no
graphics!  LabCenter Proteus is another commercial PCB system with
documentation which I think is seriously lacking - just Windows help
files which are very difficult to print, with no PDF versions.)

I worked through most of the "Getting Started in Kicad" document and was
able to make a schematic, with my own additional components, then a
netlist and a single layer PCB design with my own additional footprints
(PCB patterns of copper and holes).

I just wrote to the authors of this guide with some suggestions for
bringing the guide totally up to date with the current version of KiCad.
 If anyone wants to use this guide I can send you my notes which might
save you some headscratching.

The guide only covers making Gerber files for an external company to
make the PCBs.  I suggested they include a new section on home-brew PCB
making and suggested they link to the Homebrew PCB Yahoo group:

  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

Below is the rough text I suggested for a section which explains how to
print or generate files for phototools or other home-brew toner transfer
techniques.  Except for people with their own CNC drilling machines, we
need a guide dot in the middle of each pad or via so we can center our
drill bit.

 - Robin      http://www.firstpr.com.au/pcb-diy/



For making PCBs at home, it is necessary to generate phototools - or a
similar pattern of toner or ink on the PCB itself as an etch resist -
which are 100% final size and which have a small dot in the centre of
each via and pad, to guide the manual drilling operation.

Frequently it is desired to replicate a small PCB design several times
on the one phototool.  This can be done in PCBnew by left-click dragging
around the entire original design, moving the mouse cursor outside that
area and right clicking to use the Copy option.  This can be repeated
several times so the total design contains an array of exact copies of
the original design.

There are two ways of creating the desired artwork.  In these examples
we assume that the board is single-sided, so only the B.Cu layer needs
to be output.

The first approach starts with File > Print with just the B.CU layer
selected.  The X and Y scale adjustments which would normally be set to
1.0 but could be used to correct for printer scaling errors.  The "Black
and White" and "1 Page per Layer" options should be selected.  "Mirror"
can also be selected.  "Drill Pad Opt" should be set to "Small mark" to
create the drill-bit aligning dot in each pad and via.   This drives the
printer directly, though many systems have printer drivers which can
create PDF files.  This approach does not directly allow the negation of
the image, so it is not appropriate if white tracks are required against
a black background.  (File > Export SVG has negation but lacks small
drill marks.)

The second approach allows this negation: File > Plot > SVG.  This can
also be used to generate a Postscript file which can be processed with
software such as Ghostscript to create a PDF file.  SVG files can be
loaded into vector graphics programs - for instance Inkscape, which with
suitable configuration can print them at exactly the right size, perhaps
after further manipulation, tiling, addition of other images etc.
There are options for Mirroring, Negative, and Small Drill Marks, but
not for scaling.  This method can also be used to generate a drill file
for home-based shops with CNC drilling facilities.



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Mon May 27 16:14:23 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 16:14:23 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] What;s going on with that dsPIC ?
In-Reply-To: <CACK5CJsKngDgBxos8_B5fS23nyqnJkA6GQsHUm1bjZcjYL-T3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACK5CJu5b4oZyRuTNWHUUhLi63C=Ss04-=fHQLJfHeCnzW-Zbg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhgf2=PwApagQXBqBjMGOndQ_j661UX3thM1sVfeS3vSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACK5CJsKngDgBxos8_B5fS23nyqnJkA6GQsHUm1bjZcjYL-T3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgc3o24VE3_t+AO_o1p+LDgXW=RQ8LFFnMDdTFz1=NADw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mike,
sounds like a meaty synth, got any (line-in) demos?

Also, it sounds like the case build is really doable! Maybe I should
try this one day..

Cheers,
D.

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> D.
>
> Thanks for asking..
>
> Case:
> The case was the real "meat" and most difficult part of this project.
>
> The case is solid oak and was cut on my jigsaw, table saw and router.
> There are many intricate angles on the toe and heal pieces.
> It is built like furniture using glue, pins and clamps.
>
> The curved panel was made by thermoforming  5mm thick plastic over a
> simple mold.  Many plastics will become soft at temperature and I just
> used my oven.  Some people use hot oil in a pan for a more even
> temperature, but I found that far to messy and not necessary.  It took
> a few trys and throw aways before I go this one right.  The 5mm
> thickness allowed enough thickness to drill and tap the holes for all
> the pots and switches.
>
> The panel overlay is a custom printed vinyl to allow it to form over
> the curves.  3M 77 adhesive spray worked great
>
> Controls:
> I just added this explination of the Victorian Synth panel to Flickr
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/96442572 at N07/8853804646/
>
> Guts:
> The Victorian is a dual ramp core oscillator, each with a sub octave
> generator.  The oscillaors have hard sync and are sent to a simple
> ring modulator.    A dedicated LFO provide vibrato to osc 1 and
> provides some nice sweeping effects during hard sync
>
> The mixer section has individual levls for all 5 sources above plus white noise.
>
> The filter is a 2 pole low pass with resonance and has its own ASR and
> velocity mod input.  It also has a dedicated LFO for cut-off
> modulation.
>
> The output stage has a BBD analog delay line with feedback and a basic
> VCA with a dedicated ADSR.  Velocity is used to control the ADSR
> modulation level.
>
> The Voice Card is not in this synth but will find its way into  a
> version 2 and a few other instruments that only exist in my head and
> in 3D CAD at this point.
>
> It was a fun build and I am very happy with the one-of-a-kind result
>
> Mike.
>
> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 9:25 PM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I really like the case on that "victorian" synth. How did you make it?
>> Pretty cool!
>>
>> Got some pics of the front panel? I wonder what parameters you went with.
>>
>> Can you tell us a bit more about the architecture of the synth?
>>
>> Also, what is the "sound card"? Is it part of the "victorian"?
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tom asked to see a few pix of what state my DIY project(s) are in...
>>> well, I'm still working out all the bugs on the sound card, but I
>>> uploaded some progress to date and the project I just finished to
>>> Flickr.
>>>
>>> Take a look if you are curious.. I'll keep updating that set as I progress.
>>>
>>> This PCB is a rough one as it is the "debug board".. there was alot of
>>> talk about proto baords and vector boards etc on th email list this
>>> week.. For me, on something this big, I like to go straight to PCB..
>>> yes it is more difficult to change values, but I don't have to wonder
>>> if it is the design or the proto board when I am debugging.  And when
>>> it's done, it is easy to duplicate it to a "clean" copy and use it in
>>> a synth (I have 6 PCBs)
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/96442572 at N07/sets/72157633698055196/
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>>>> Sounds like a nice project. Have you got any pictures we can see?
>>>>
>>>> Good luck with it either way,
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> On 26 May 2013, at 00:13, Michael Bachman <bachmanm50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Guys
>>>>>
>>>>> I use the dsPIC30F4013.. it is a 40 pin DIP.  Although a bit more costly,
>>>>> this series has the built-in EEPROM and runs on standard +5v.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my current project, the PIC runs a dual 12 bit DAC for oscillator
>>>>> output/control, uses the 4 PWM generators to produce control voltages
>>>>> (after some Bessel filters) for PWM modulation, Filter frequency, Q and
>>>>> VCA  and there are still pins for MIDI in/out, control pots, selector switches
>>>>> and the LCD interface.
>>>>>
>>>>> have fun
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tim.parkhurst at gmail.com  Mon May 27 19:48:27 2013
From: tim.parkhurst at gmail.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 10:48:27 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] KiCad early success: guide dots for drilling homemade
	PCBs
In-Reply-To: <51A3644C.6030605@firstpr.com.au>
References: <51A3644C.6030605@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <CACDGQT-X8WxL8h+i8w0=4u=8jNBWAyCqFnB4ro018YK1wt+GMw@mail.gmail.com>

Nicely done, thanks for sharing! I haven't read all the info yet, but
you've presented some handy tips here. I've been using KiCAD for years
now (all my Magic Smoke boards were done in KiCAD). The process to add
new parts and footprints is a little clunky, but I've managed to work
with it (then again, maybe I need to read the docs again).

Tim (RTFP = Read The Frakking PDF) Servo
---
"Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
- H.L. Hastings


On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Robin Whittle <rw at firstpr.com.au> wrote:
> I am exploring the open source Kicad schematic - PCB - Gerber system and
> so far am most encouraged by its ease of use, functionality and
> documentation:
>
>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kicad
>   https://launchpad.net/kicad
>
> Thanks to Veronica Merryfield and others who wrote to this list about
> their KiCad experiences - including Eric Brombaugh who wrote a great
> comparison of KiCad and gEda, the two most prominent complete
> open-source schematic-PCB systems:
>
>   http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/pipermail/synth-diy/2011-February/030929.html
>
> It is my impression that the documentation is is well-written,
> well-illustrated and generally up-to-date with the software.   The
> documentation is in PDF files.  (Eagle documentation is all text - no
> graphics!  LabCenter Proteus is another commercial PCB system with
> documentation which I think is seriously lacking - just Windows help
> files which are very difficult to print, with no PDF versions.)
>
> I worked through most of the "Getting Started in Kicad" document and was
> able to make a schematic, with my own additional components, then a
> netlist and a single layer PCB design with my own additional footprints
> (PCB patterns of copper and holes).
>
> I just wrote to the authors of this guide with some suggestions for
> bringing the guide totally up to date with the current version of KiCad.
>  If anyone wants to use this guide I can send you my notes which might
> save you some headscratching.
>
> The guide only covers making Gerber files for an external company to
> make the PCBs.  I suggested they include a new section on home-brew PCB
> making and suggested they link to the Homebrew PCB Yahoo group:
>
>   http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
>
> Below is the rough text I suggested for a section which explains how to
> print or generate files for phototools or other home-brew toner transfer
> techniques.  Except for people with their own CNC drilling machines, we
> need a guide dot in the middle of each pad or via so we can center our
> drill bit.
>
>  - Robin      http://www.firstpr.com.au/pcb-diy/
>
>
>
> For making PCBs at home, it is necessary to generate phototools - or a
> similar pattern of toner or ink on the PCB itself as an etch resist -
> which are 100% final size and which have a small dot in the centre of
> each via and pad, to guide the manual drilling operation.
>
> Frequently it is desired to replicate a small PCB design several times
> on the one phototool.  This can be done in PCBnew by left-click dragging
> around the entire original design, moving the mouse cursor outside that
> area and right clicking to use the Copy option.  This can be repeated
> several times so the total design contains an array of exact copies of
> the original design.
>
> There are two ways of creating the desired artwork.  In these examples
> we assume that the board is single-sided, so only the B.Cu layer needs
> to be output.
>
> The first approach starts with File > Print with just the B.CU layer
> selected.  The X and Y scale adjustments which would normally be set to
> 1.0 but could be used to correct for printer scaling errors.  The "Black
> and White" and "1 Page per Layer" options should be selected.  "Mirror"
> can also be selected.  "Drill Pad Opt" should be set to "Small mark" to
> create the drill-bit aligning dot in each pad and via.   This drives the
> printer directly, though many systems have printer drivers which can
> create PDF files.  This approach does not directly allow the negation of
> the image, so it is not appropriate if white tracks are required against
> a black background.  (File > Export SVG has negation but lacks small
> drill marks.)
>
> The second approach allows this negation: File > Plot > SVG.  This can
> also be used to generate a Postscript file which can be processed with
> software such as Ghostscript to create a PDF file.  SVG files can be
> loaded into vector graphics programs - for instance Inkscape, which with
> suitable configuration can print them at exactly the right size, perhaps
> after further manipulation, tiling, addition of other images etc.
> There are options for Mirroring, Negative, and Small Drill Marks, but
> not for scaling.  This method can also be used to generate a drill file
> for home-based shops with CNC drilling facilities.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From johannes.oberg at gmail.com  Tue May 28 00:14:55 2013
From: johannes.oberg at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Johannes_=D6berg?=)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 00:14:55 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Found old TM3030 examples
In-Reply-To: <CA+Vknn3YVYaXObAOfHQ+8mn5JPfKq-6GKFBuZQnpWnNvLaE-SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+Vknn3YVYaXObAOfHQ+8mn5JPfKq-6GKFBuZQnpWnNvLaE-SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+Vknn2UeJuKLte3TTBL9PGD_c3ZaWY7h+DrLE92ZfL86GyYqA@mail.gmail.com>

Uhm was rescuing some very old files and stumbled upon these, afaik
the only good demos of the Oakley TM3030.

Anybody know who made them? I think I remember it was somebody on sdiy
and he had a bare-bones synth diy web site with a page dedicated to
the TM-3030. I have a vague memory he was a brit.

Is it ok if I leave them up?

https://mega.co.nz/#F!y1olERAB!M-bs9nOqeYBd8uZYaL_4BA


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Tue May 28 00:49:13 2013
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 00:49:13 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Found old TM3030 examples
In-Reply-To: <CA+Vknn2UeJuKLte3TTBL9PGD_c3ZaWY7h+DrLE92ZfL86GyYqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+Vknn3YVYaXObAOfHQ+8mn5JPfKq-6GKFBuZQnpWnNvLaE-SA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+Vknn2UeJuKLte3TTBL9PGD_c3ZaWY7h+DrLE92ZfL86GyYqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51A3E2E9.8020701@uni-bonn.de>

Am 28.05.2013 00:14, schrieb Johannes ?berg:
> Anybody know who made them? I think I remember it was somebody on sdiy
> and he had a bare-bones synth diy web site with a page dedicated to
> the TM-3030. I have a vague memory he was a brit.

That is Tony Allgood. http://www.oakleysound.co.uk/tm3030.htm

Cheers,
  Ren?

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs159


From johannes.oberg at gmail.com  Tue May 28 01:32:04 2013
From: johannes.oberg at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Johannes_=D6berg?=)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 01:32:04 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Found old TM3030 examples
In-Reply-To: <51A3E2E9.8020701@uni-bonn.de>
References: <CA+Vknn3YVYaXObAOfHQ+8mn5JPfKq-6GKFBuZQnpWnNvLaE-SA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+Vknn2UeJuKLte3TTBL9PGD_c3ZaWY7h+DrLE92ZfL86GyYqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<51A3E2E9.8020701@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <CA+Vknn3DFs6EgdQdj8ucYNcXK6RxYJ1dK8buY0mHxssQJHzeNw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think so; at least that is not the page where these sound
clips came from. While there are 4 mp3's on that site with similar
names, they sound very different. Indeed, the clips on the site do a
pretty poor job of showing how the TM-3030 can sound like a TB-303.

/J


From colin at colinfraser.com  Tue May 28 02:39:27 2013
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 01:39:27 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Found old TM3030 examples
In-Reply-To: <CA+Vknn3DFs6EgdQdj8ucYNcXK6RxYJ1dK8buY0mHxssQJHzeNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+Vknn3YVYaXObAOfHQ+8mn5JPfKq-6GKFBuZQnpWnNvLaE-SA@mail.gmail.com><CA+Vknn2UeJuKLte3TTBL9PGD_c3ZaWY7h+DrLE92ZfL86GyYqA@mail.gmail.com><51A3E2E9.8020701@uni-bonn.de>
	<CA+Vknn3DFs6EgdQdj8ucYNcXK6RxYJ1dK8buY0mHxssQJHzeNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8B1591DD99547579E4477A74EE856BD@c57d>

The 303/3030 comparisons are from here:
http://www.colinfraser.com/mb303/tm3030.htm

Cheers,
Colin f
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of 
> Johannes ?berg
> Sent: 28 May 2013 00:32
> To: synth-diy DIY
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Found old TM3030 examples
> 
> I don't think so; at least that is not the page where these 
> sound clips came from. While there are 4 mp3's on that site 
> with similar names, they sound very different. Indeed, the 
> clips on the site do a pretty poor job of showing how the 
> TM-3030 can sound like a TB-303.
> 
> /J
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From altitude at optrand.com  Tue May 28 05:20:05 2013
From: altitude at optrand.com (Altitude)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 23:20:05 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Found old TM3030 examples
In-Reply-To: <C8B1591DD99547579E4477A74EE856BD@c57d>
References: <CA+Vknn3YVYaXObAOfHQ+8mn5JPfKq-6GKFBuZQnpWnNvLaE-SA@mail.gmail.com><CA+Vknn2UeJuKLte3TTBL9PGD_c3ZaWY7h+DrLE92ZfL86GyYqA@mail.gmail.com><51A3E2E9.8020701@uni-bonn.de>	<CA+Vknn3DFs6EgdQdj8ucYNcXK6RxYJ1dK8buY0mHxssQJHzeNw@mail.gmail.com>
	<C8B1591DD99547579E4477A74EE856BD@c57d>
Message-ID: <000001ce5b52$40abf460$c203dd20$@com>

There are a LOT of options with the 3030 with regards to transistors
(vintage/current) and I have a pair based on the THAT parts and other modern
silicon and they are "tighter" sounding between each other than any of the
30 x0xb0xes I've built in the last 5 years based on the old parts.. Tony
nailed it with these IMHO

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Colin f
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 8:39 PM
To: 'synth-diy DIY'
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Found old TM3030 examples

The 303/3030 comparisons are from here:
http://www.colinfraser.com/mb303/tm3030.htm

Cheers,
Colin f
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Johannes 
> ?berg
> Sent: 28 May 2013 00:32
> To: synth-diy DIY
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Found old TM3030 examples
> 
> I don't think so; at least that is not the page where these sound 
> clips came from. While there are 4 mp3's on that site with similar 
> names, they sound very different. Indeed, the clips on the site do a 
> pretty poor job of showing how the
> TM-3030 can sound like a TB-303.
> 
> /J
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From rw at firstpr.com.au  Tue May 28 06:52:58 2013
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 14:52:58 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] KiCad schematic and PCB techniques
In-Reply-To: <CALo7AoPj4XF4x41faATozrPR_idzBwMPAycT-m+v2x_nuWvqSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51A3644C.6030605@firstpr.com.au>
	<CACDGQT-X8WxL8h+i8w0=4u=8jNBWAyCqFnB4ro018YK1wt+GMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALo7AoPj4XF4x41faATozrPR_idzBwMPAycT-m+v2x_nuWvqSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51A4382A.2050402@firstpr.com.au>

From: Re: KiCad early success: guide dots for drilling homemade PCBs:

With KiCad the component appearance can be changed, by changing it or
making a new one in the the eeschematic (the schematic program) library.
 As far as I know, there is no possibility of altering the component in
the schematic, such as by moving pins around, altering the text for each
pin name etc.  This was possible with the old MSDOS Protel Schematic
(goes with Protel MSDOS AutoTrax) program from the late 1980s or early
1990s.  The Schematic program had a special library manager in which
library components were made and edited, but it could also be done with
a text editor with care.  The PCB program itself was used to make PCB
library components - footprints - including by "exploding to primitives"
an existing components, moving them around as ordinary objects etc. and
then selecting them to make a new library component.  I always found it
satisfying to explode something to primitives, rearrange and add to
them, and then make a new component.

The text font can't be changed - for eeschematic and PCBnew (the PCB
editor) - it is compiled into the binaries and would be difficult to
change.  However I am happy with it since it is fixed width, simple and
readable.

  https://answers.launchpad.net/kicad/+question/121048

The size of each item of text can be changed in the schematic.  It can
be rotated in 90 degree increments.  Each piece of text (not the text
for each pin in each component) can be made invisible.  (In PCBnew, text
made invisible is visible on a special layer which itself can be made
invisible.)

I think these changes need to be made one by one, but that it would be
possible to do it en-masse with a text editor in the schematic file
itself by finding and replacing the text which specifies the size.

I think the trick to making good schematics is something like this:

  Use a fixed width font.  With age our eyesight deteriorates and
  when reading proportional spaced sans-serif fonts we have trouble
  deciding whether there is one or two "i" characters side by side.
  Proportional width fonts such as Arial or Helvetica generally make
  the lower case L and upper case I look identical.  We need to be
  able to read every character explicitly, not just recognise whole
  conventional words as when reading prose.

  Make the components the way you like.  The library components will
  probably suck in fundamental ways with respect to this, since they
  were made by a bunch of people with different ideas.  I haven't
  tried to make my own set of KiCad schematic components yet, but I
  will probably make all complex parts have 100 mil (0.1 inch) pin
  spacings with pin number text which is readable at this spacing.

  Pin length is selectable with KiCad - I will decide on some
  standard.

  In the schematic itself it is vital that the font size used for
  all component labeling, net labels etc. be small enough that it
  can fit within whatever the usual wire spacing is, such as 100 mil
  without touching or overlaying the wires.

  In order to make the schematic look good it is vital to move the
  text with care using a much finer grid than might be used for the
  placement of components.  The "Getting Started with KiCad" document
  suggests using a 50 mil grid for schematics.  I think it is better
  to use a 100 mil grid when placing components and a finer grid, such
  as 10 mil, when moving text.  (In MSDOS Protel Schematic the grid
  was for component placement and was usually 100 mil.  I recall that
  this did not restrict text movement.)  I think the program could be
  improved by having separate grids for component and text placement.

  Text colours are no-doubt selectable.

  People who use rectangular resistors can use the space inside the
  resistors to label its value.  I prefer zig-zag resistors since they
  are instantly identifiable as such in a schematic which already has
  lots of right-angles and rectangles of various sizes.

  I will be making my own electrolytic capacitor schematic component
  with the positive plate empty and the negative one filled (full of
  electrons).


I haven't looked at hole size editing in the PCB program, but I think it
is vital to plan a systematic set of hole sizes in the PCB library to
minimize the diversity of hole sizes in the final board - this is for
external double-sided plated-through hole PCB manufacture.

There's a huge body of work learning a program, annotating the printed
out documentation (I can't imagine how to do this without annotated
documentation and personal cheatsheets), developing work procedures and
PCB standards appropriate to different methods of making PCBs, creating
your own schematic and PCB library, and then just becoming competent at
using it all.  I wrote for myself an entire 40 page Word document, all
comb-bound and updated and/or hand-annotated, just to remind me how to
do schematics and PCBs with the MSDOS Protel software.  I will refer to
this when I decide how to do serious work with KiCad.

I did this once around 1990 and haven't been designing PCBs since I
modified the 1993-96 Devil Fish board in 2004.  Now I plan to learn
KiCad.  It is like learning a whole new language (programming or
spoken/written).  It is a major investment to become proficient in one
of these packages.  I would not like to have to learn and use two such
systems at the same time.

This would happen naturally if I spent a large part of my time designing
PCBs, but I do many other things, so I will probably immerse myself in
it, write good cheatsheets (I tend to do this in HTML with Kompozer,
since it can so easily link to web pages, forum discussions etc. and
contain screen shots and photos - and be cleanly updated).  Months or a
year or more may go by where I don't think at all about PCB design.
Then I will rely on my cheatsheet, annotated documentation, mailing list
messages, libraries and previous projects to remind me how to do it again.

  - Robin


megohm quoted Tim Parkurst:

>> The process to add new parts and footprints is a little clunky, but 
>> I've managed to work with it (then again, maybe I need to read the
>> docs again).
> 
> Can you elaborate on this?
> 
> I have been using TinyCAD and FreePCB but would like to try KiCAD but,
> 
> I like to make my own footprints. Even simple things like resistors I
> make my own version of.
> 
> Also, I have never liked the look of KiCAD (or Eagle) schematics. Is
> this something that is set in stone or can you make your own symbols and
> change font sizes and stuff like that?
> 
> Thanks,
> p.



From dlmanley at sonic.net  Tue May 28 18:45:06 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 09:45:06 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CL : Vintage EMU MODULAR SYNTHESIZER Parts-VERY RARE (santa
 cruz) $4800
Message-ID: <lhklk1tqukxekkfx5bv1h9xn.1369759348985@email.android.com>

Not mine but may be of list interest.  Price seems crazy.

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net>
 Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 07:33 AM
 To: dlmanley at sonic.net
 CC: 
 Subject: Vintage EMU MODULAR SYNTHESIZER Parts-VERY RARE (santa cruz) $4800

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/msg/3833511486.html


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Tue May 28 18:52:22 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Thx1138)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 09:52:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] CL : Vintage EMU MODULAR SYNTHESIZER Parts-VERY RARE
	(santa cruz) $4800
In-Reply-To: <lhklk1tqukxekkfx5bv1h9xn.1369759348985@email.android.com>
References: <lhklk1tqukxekkfx5bv1h9xn.1369759348985@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <82AE9D5E-2E9D-46B9-8098-6E573F48E75B@earthlink.net>

Hi all

Price dropped from $8400 to $4800.

Still not such a great deal as many parts are almost impossible to find.

Terry

Sent from my iPhone

On May 28, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net> wrote:

> Not mine but may be of list interest.  Price seems crazy.
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net>
> Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 07:33 AM
> To: dlmanley at sonic.net
> CC: 
> Subject: Vintage EMU MODULAR SYNTHESIZER Parts-VERY RARE (santa cruz) $4800
> 
> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/msg/3833511486.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From Simon.Wheaton at cit.edu.au  Tue May 28 19:01:29 2013
From: Simon.Wheaton at cit.edu.au (Wheaton, Simon)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 17:01:29 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] [AH] CL : Vintage EMU MODULAR SYNTHESIZER Parts-VERY
 RARE (santa cruz) $4800
In-Reply-To: <lhklk1tqukxekkfx5bv1h9xn.1369759348985@email.android.com>
References: <lhklk1tqukxekkfx5bv1h9xn.1369759348985@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <2F67318E9986624E8D30B7C664E892C71E51CB60@PRDEXM001.act.gov.au>

Cheaper than what it has been listed for on ebay for a while.

I think it was listed there for something like $6500 to begin with.

Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA


---

CIT is the ACT Large Training Provider of the Year.
Subscribe to CIT Industry Connection - CIT's free, bi monthly publication:
http://cit.edu.au/industry_business/industry_connection/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Tue May 28 19:04:26 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Thx1138)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 10:04:26 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] [AH] CL : Vintage EMU MODULAR SYNTHESIZER Parts-VERY
	RARE (santa cruz) $4800
In-Reply-To: <2F67318E9986624E8D30B7C664E892C71E51CB60@PRDEXM001.act.gov.au>
References: <lhklk1tqukxekkfx5bv1h9xn.1369759348985@email.android.com>
	<2F67318E9986624E8D30B7C664E892C71E51CB60@PRDEXM001.act.gov.au>
Message-ID: <2D665004-0BA9-4BD3-8746-992A080AEFED@earthlink.net>

$8400.00 was original eBay ad

Terry

Sent from my iPhone

On May 28, 2013, at 10:01 AM, "Wheaton, Simon" <Simon.Wheaton at cit.edu.au> wrote:

> Cheaper than what it has been listed for on ebay for a while.
> 
> I think it was listed there for something like $6500 to begin with.
> 
> Simon
> Canberra
> AUSTRALIA
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> CIT is the ACT Large Training Provider of the Year.
> Subscribe to CIT Industry Connection - CIT's free, bi monthly publication:
> http://cit.edu.au/industry_business/industry_connection/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May 28 19:54:43 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:54:43 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I
	get?
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,
I want to put more emphasis on building whole circuits rather than
tuning and repairing existing ones and so I was wondering if someone
could help me out. I've got the gear but I don't have the resources -
that is, I'm missing the parts to build circuits with. I would like to
build things like filters (diode/transistor ladder, SVF), small line
amps, oscillators, etc. Other than a rich supply of ssm2164's, what do
you guys suggest I get? I'd like to make one big order from
reichelt/mouser/etc so that I don't have to buy and wait every few
days and get stalled over and over.

I'm sure a lot of people are in my situation, so maybe this could be a
good place for them to look for ideas. Or maybe there's a guide like
this already?

Here's an ad-hoc list of stuff I'd like to build:
- general modular synth stuff, so the usual: VCAs, LFOs, VCOs, VCFs,
ring modulators, etc.
- distortions/fuzzes
- build some cool circuits with op amps, transistors, diodes, OTAs,
VCAs (be it amps/distortions, or filters)
- small power supplies for the above
- small preamps and line drivers
- simple Z80 based circuits
- equalizers
- LC, LR, RC, LRC filters, wien bridge osc, stuff like that

The idea is to identify a parts list that's going to be enough for
longer experimentation. Assume there's nothing on my workbench other
than a good soldering iron with solder, scope, dmm, and assorted other
audio test equipment.

What would you suggest I buy for the below, and how many? If an item
is not available new anymore, could you add info on places that stock
them? The idea is to name the classics that are used in a lot of
circuits, but also name some of the goodies that are currently
considered very good, without going overboard.

- op amps (staple)

- op amps (go wild and name some good ones)

- VCAs (can you recommend any other than our beloved 2164?)

- OTAs

- transistors (BJT and FET)

- transistor arrays (BJT and FET)

- zener diodes

- other diodes

- germanium transistors

- germanium diodes

- other non-linear active elements

- other ICs

- voltage references (REF series?)

- tempco's

- resistors

- potentiometers

- capacitors (electrolytic)

- capacitors (film)

- inductors

- switches

- connectors (big 'n' small)

- dip sockets

- heatsinks

- other mechanical elements

- esd mat(s) and tools?

- Z80 related stuff?

- good simple ADCs and DACs

- wire

- PCBs

- anything else I left out?


Thanks for any help. You guys are great.

Cheers,
D.


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May 28 19:59:03 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:59:03 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] [AH] CL : Vintage EMU MODULAR SYNTHESIZER Parts-VERY
 RARE (santa cruz) $4800
In-Reply-To: <2D665004-0BA9-4BD3-8746-992A080AEFED@earthlink.net>
References: <lhklk1tqukxekkfx5bv1h9xn.1369759348985@email.android.com>
	<2F67318E9986624E8D30B7C664E892C71E51CB60@PRDEXM001.act.gov.au>
	<2D665004-0BA9-4BD3-8746-992A080AEFED@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUiJH4n+kVX4UGRmBVOVKv62CQfqfybPdM5JuW-97Q8caw@mail.gmail.com>

Terry, still waiting for those secret EMU archives ;)

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Thx1138 <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> $8400.00 was original eBay ad
>
> Terry
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 28, 2013, at 10:01 AM, "Wheaton, Simon" <Simon.Wheaton at cit.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> Cheaper than what it has been listed for on ebay for a while.
>>
>> I think it was listed there for something like $6500 to begin with.
>>
>> Simon
>> Canberra
>> AUSTRALIA
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> CIT is the ACT Large Training Provider of the Year.
>> Subscribe to CIT Industry Connection - CIT's free, bi monthly publication:
>> http://cit.edu.au/industry_business/industry_connection/
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From nugenta at mail.nih.gov  Tue May 28 20:15:55 2013
From: nugenta at mail.nih.gov (Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E])
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 18:15:55 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should
 I	get?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8161699639FAA44AA4D5FFF39CED885063418E0@MLBXV01.nih.gov>

Jameco has everything.

So does Mouser.  Mouser is sometimes better if you want small quantities of things.  

A
--------------------------
Sent using BlackBerry


----- Original Message -----
From: cheater00 . [mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 01:54 PM
To: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I	get?

Hi guys,
I want to put more emphasis on building whole circuits rather than
tuning and repairing existing ones and so I was wondering if someone
could help me out. I've got the gear but I don't have the resources -
that is, I'm missing the parts to build circuits with. I would like to
build things like filters (diode/transistor ladder, SVF), small line
amps, oscillators, etc. Other than a rich supply of ssm2164's, what do
you guys suggest I get? I'd like to make one big order from
reichelt/mouser/etc so that I don't have to buy and wait every few
days and get stalled over and over.

I'm sure a lot of people are in my situation, so maybe this could be a
good place for them to look for ideas. Or maybe there's a guide like
this already?

Here's an ad-hoc list of stuff I'd like to build:
- general modular synth stuff, so the usual: VCAs, LFOs, VCOs, VCFs,
ring modulators, etc.
- distortions/fuzzes
- build some cool circuits with op amps, transistors, diodes, OTAs,
VCAs (be it amps/distortions, or filters)
- small power supplies for the above
- small preamps and line drivers
- simple Z80 based circuits
- equalizers
- LC, LR, RC, LRC filters, wien bridge osc, stuff like that

The idea is to identify a parts list that's going to be enough for
longer experimentation. Assume there's nothing on my workbench other
than a good soldering iron with solder, scope, dmm, and assorted other
audio test equipment.

What would you suggest I buy for the below, and how many? If an item
is not available new anymore, could you add info on places that stock
them? The idea is to name the classics that are used in a lot of
circuits, but also name some of the goodies that are currently
considered very good, without going overboard.

- op amps (staple)

- op amps (go wild and name some good ones)

- VCAs (can you recommend any other than our beloved 2164?)

- OTAs

- transistors (BJT and FET)

- transistor arrays (BJT and FET)

- zener diodes

- other diodes

- germanium transistors

- germanium diodes

- other non-linear active elements

- other ICs

- voltage references (REF series?)

- tempco's

- resistors

- potentiometers

- capacitors (electrolytic)

- capacitors (film)

- inductors

- switches

- connectors (big 'n' small)

- dip sockets

- heatsinks

- other mechanical elements

- esd mat(s) and tools?

- Z80 related stuff?

- good simple ADCs and DACs

- wire

- PCBs

- anything else I left out?


Thanks for any help. You guys are great.

Cheers,
D.
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Tue May 28 20:18:29 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:18:29 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should
	I	get?
In-Reply-To: <C8161699639FAA44AA4D5FFF39CED885063418E0@MLBXV01.nih.gov>
References: <C8161699639FAA44AA4D5FFF39CED885063418E0@MLBXV01.nih.gov>
Message-ID: <2ABB13B6-4B9F-4723-9B76-3A21B5829661@earthlink.net>

All so divi key

Sent from my iPad

On May 28, 2013, at 11:15 AM, "Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]" <nugenta at mail.nih.gov> wrote:

> Jameco has everything.
> 
> So does Mouser.  Mouser is sometimes better if you want small quantities of things.  
> 
> A
> --------------------------
> Sent using BlackBerry
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cheater00 . [mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 01:54 PM
> To: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I    get?
> 
> Hi guys,
> I want to put more emphasis on building whole circuits rather than
> tuning and repairing existing ones and so I was wondering if someone
> could help me out. I've got the gear but I don't have the resources -
> that is, I'm missing the parts to build circuits with. I would like to
> build things like filters (diode/transistor ladder, SVF), small line
> amps, oscillators, etc. Other than a rich supply of ssm2164's, what do
> you guys suggest I get? I'd like to make one big order from
> reichelt/mouser/etc so that I don't have to buy and wait every few
> days and get stalled over and over.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of people are in my situation, so maybe this could be a
> good place for them to look for ideas. Or maybe there's a guide like
> this already?
> 
> Here's an ad-hoc list of stuff I'd like to build:
> - general modular synth stuff, so the usual: VCAs, LFOs, VCOs, VCFs,
> ring modulators, etc.
> - distortions/fuzzes
> - build some cool circuits with op amps, transistors, diodes, OTAs,
> VCAs (be it amps/distortions, or filters)
> - small power supplies for the above
> - small preamps and line drivers
> - simple Z80 based circuits
> - equalizers
> - LC, LR, RC, LRC filters, wien bridge osc, stuff like that
> 
> The idea is to identify a parts list that's going to be enough for
> longer experimentation. Assume there's nothing on my workbench other
> than a good soldering iron with solder, scope, dmm, and assorted other
> audio test equipment.
> 
> What would you suggest I buy for the below, and how many? If an item
> is not available new anymore, could you add info on places that stock
> them? The idea is to name the classics that are used in a lot of
> circuits, but also name some of the goodies that are currently
> considered very good, without going overboard.
> 
> - op amps (staple)
> 
> - op amps (go wild and name some good ones)
> 
> - VCAs (can you recommend any other than our beloved 2164?)
> 
> - OTAs
> 
> - transistors (BJT and FET)
> 
> - transistor arrays (BJT and FET)
> 
> - zener diodes
> 
> - other diodes
> 
> - germanium transistors
> 
> - germanium diodes
> 
> - other non-linear active elements
> 
> - other ICs
> 
> - voltage references (REF series?)
> 
> - tempco's
> 
> - resistors
> 
> - potentiometers
> 
> - capacitors (electrolytic)
> 
> - capacitors (film)
> 
> - inductors
> 
> - switches
> 
> - connectors (big 'n' small)
> 
> - dip sockets
> 
> - heatsinks
> 
> - other mechanical elements
> 
> - esd mat(s) and tools?
> 
> - Z80 related stuff?
> 
> - good simple ADCs and DACs
> 
> - wire
> 
> - PCBs
> 
> - anything else I left out?
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help. You guys are great.
> 
> Cheers,
> D.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From nugenta at mail.nih.gov  Tue May 28 20:23:36 2013
From: nugenta at mail.nih.gov (Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E])
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 18:23:36 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should
 I	get?
In-Reply-To: <2ABB13B6-4B9F-4723-9B76-3A21B5829661@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C8161699639FAA44AA4D5FFF39CED88506341919@MLBXV01.nih.gov>

I suspect that was an autocorrect mutilation of digikey. 
--------------------------
Sent using BlackBerry


----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Shultz [mailto:thx1138 at earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 02:18 PM
To: Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]
Cc: cheater00 at gmail.com <cheater00 at gmail.com>; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I	get?

All so divi key

Sent from my iPad

On May 28, 2013, at 11:15 AM, "Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]" <nugenta at mail.nih.gov> wrote:

> Jameco has everything.
> 
> So does Mouser.  Mouser is sometimes better if you want small quantities of things.  
> 
> A
> --------------------------
> Sent using BlackBerry
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cheater00 . [mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 01:54 PM
> To: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I    get?
> 
> Hi guys,
> I want to put more emphasis on building whole circuits rather than
> tuning and repairing existing ones and so I was wondering if someone
> could help me out. I've got the gear but I don't have the resources -
> that is, I'm missing the parts to build circuits with. I would like to
> build things like filters (diode/transistor ladder, SVF), small line
> amps, oscillators, etc. Other than a rich supply of ssm2164's, what do
> you guys suggest I get? I'd like to make one big order from
> reichelt/mouser/etc so that I don't have to buy and wait every few
> days and get stalled over and over.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of people are in my situation, so maybe this could be a
> good place for them to look for ideas. Or maybe there's a guide like
> this already?
> 
> Here's an ad-hoc list of stuff I'd like to build:
> - general modular synth stuff, so the usual: VCAs, LFOs, VCOs, VCFs,
> ring modulators, etc.
> - distortions/fuzzes
> - build some cool circuits with op amps, transistors, diodes, OTAs,
> VCAs (be it amps/distortions, or filters)
> - small power supplies for the above
> - small preamps and line drivers
> - simple Z80 based circuits
> - equalizers
> - LC, LR, RC, LRC filters, wien bridge osc, stuff like that
> 
> The idea is to identify a parts list that's going to be enough for
> longer experimentation. Assume there's nothing on my workbench other
> than a good soldering iron with solder, scope, dmm, and assorted other
> audio test equipment.
> 
> What would you suggest I buy for the below, and how many? If an item
> is not available new anymore, could you add info on places that stock
> them? The idea is to name the classics that are used in a lot of
> circuits, but also name some of the goodies that are currently
> considered very good, without going overboard.
> 
> - op amps (staple)
> 
> - op amps (go wild and name some good ones)
> 
> - VCAs (can you recommend any other than our beloved 2164?)
> 
> - OTAs
> 
> - transistors (BJT and FET)
> 
> - transistor arrays (BJT and FET)
> 
> - zener diodes
> 
> - other diodes
> 
> - germanium transistors
> 
> - germanium diodes
> 
> - other non-linear active elements
> 
> - other ICs
> 
> - voltage references (REF series?)
> 
> - tempco's
> 
> - resistors
> 
> - potentiometers
> 
> - capacitors (electrolytic)
> 
> - capacitors (film)
> 
> - inductors
> 
> - switches
> 
> - connectors (big 'n' small)
> 
> - dip sockets
> 
> - heatsinks
> 
> - other mechanical elements
> 
> - esd mat(s) and tools?
> 
> - Z80 related stuff?
> 
> - good simple ADCs and DACs
> 
> - wire
> 
> - PCBs
> 
> - anything else I left out?
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help. You guys are great.
> 
> Cheers,
> D.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue May 28 20:29:42 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 20:29:42 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should
	I get?
In-Reply-To: <C8161699639FAA44AA4D5FFF39CED88506341919@MLBXV01.nih.gov>
References: <2ABB13B6-4B9F-4723-9B76-3A21B5829661@earthlink.net>
	<C8161699639FAA44AA4D5FFF39CED88506341919@MLBXV01.nih.gov>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUg0hTRt_PzKhoa+rMm1HfL6t8O-k0ee8EeLYJTH5w1mgA@mail.gmail.com>

Right guys, Jameco and Mouser are good, but it's not about where to
get the parts, but what actual parts to get. What do you suggest?

D.

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]
<nugenta at mail.nih.gov> wrote:
> I suspect that was an autocorrect mutilation of digikey.
> --------------------------
> Sent using BlackBerry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Terry Shultz [mailto:thx1138 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 02:18 PM
> To: Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]
> Cc: cheater00 at gmail.com <cheater00 at gmail.com>; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I   get?
>
> All so divi key
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 28, 2013, at 11:15 AM, "Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]" <nugenta at mail.nih.gov> wrote:
>
>> Jameco has everything.
>>
>> So does Mouser.  Mouser is sometimes better if you want small quantities of things.
>>
>> A
>> --------------------------
>> Sent using BlackBerry
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: cheater00 . [mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 01:54 PM
>> To: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I    get?
>>
>> Hi guys,
>> I want to put more emphasis on building whole circuits rather than
>> tuning and repairing existing ones and so I was wondering if someone
>> could help me out. I've got the gear but I don't have the resources -
>> that is, I'm missing the parts to build circuits with. I would like to
>> build things like filters (diode/transistor ladder, SVF), small line
>> amps, oscillators, etc. Other than a rich supply of ssm2164's, what do
>> you guys suggest I get? I'd like to make one big order from
>> reichelt/mouser/etc so that I don't have to buy and wait every few
>> days and get stalled over and over.
>>
>> I'm sure a lot of people are in my situation, so maybe this could be a
>> good place for them to look for ideas. Or maybe there's a guide like
>> this already?
>>
>> Here's an ad-hoc list of stuff I'd like to build:
>> - general modular synth stuff, so the usual: VCAs, LFOs, VCOs, VCFs,
>> ring modulators, etc.
>> - distortions/fuzzes
>> - build some cool circuits with op amps, transistors, diodes, OTAs,
>> VCAs (be it amps/distortions, or filters)
>> - small power supplies for the above
>> - small preamps and line drivers
>> - simple Z80 based circuits
>> - equalizers
>> - LC, LR, RC, LRC filters, wien bridge osc, stuff like that
>>
>> The idea is to identify a parts list that's going to be enough for
>> longer experimentation. Assume there's nothing on my workbench other
>> than a good soldering iron with solder, scope, dmm, and assorted other
>> audio test equipment.
>>
>> What would you suggest I buy for the below, and how many? If an item
>> is not available new anymore, could you add info on places that stock
>> them? The idea is to name the classics that are used in a lot of
>> circuits, but also name some of the goodies that are currently
>> considered very good, without going overboard.
>>
>> - op amps (staple)
>>
>> - op amps (go wild and name some good ones)
>>
>> - VCAs (can you recommend any other than our beloved 2164?)
>>
>> - OTAs
>>
>> - transistors (BJT and FET)
>>
>> - transistor arrays (BJT and FET)
>>
>> - zener diodes
>>
>> - other diodes
>>
>> - germanium transistors
>>
>> - germanium diodes
>>
>> - other non-linear active elements
>>
>> - other ICs
>>
>> - voltage references (REF series?)
>>
>> - tempco's
>>
>> - resistors
>>
>> - potentiometers
>>
>> - capacitors (electrolytic)
>>
>> - capacitors (film)
>>
>> - inductors
>>
>> - switches
>>
>> - connectors (big 'n' small)
>>
>> - dip sockets
>>
>> - heatsinks
>>
>> - other mechanical elements
>>
>> - esd mat(s) and tools?
>>
>> - Z80 related stuff?
>>
>> - good simple ADCs and DACs
>>
>> - wire
>>
>> - PCBs
>>
>> - anything else I left out?
>>
>>
>> Thanks for any help. You guys are great.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dlmanley at sonic.net  Tue May 28 20:48:40 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:48:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts
	should	I get?
Message-ID: <kgghfrof21971seu4gjil2ir.1369766920025@email.android.com>

I seem to recall someone on sdiy has on their website a merged component list from many projects.

-------- Original Message --------
 From: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>
 Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 11:29 AM
 To: Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E] <nugenta at mail.nih.gov>
 CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 Subject: Re: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should	I get?

>Right guys, Jameco and Mouser are good, but it's not about where to
>get the parts, but what actual parts to get. What do you suggest?
>
>D.
>
>On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]
><nugenta at mail.nih.gov> wrote:
>> I suspect that was an autocorrect mutilation of digikey.
>> --------------------------
>> Sent using BlackBerry
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Terry Shultz [mailto:thx1138 at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 02:18 PM
>> To: Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]
>> Cc: cheater00 at gmail.com <cheater00 at gmail.com>; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I   get?
>>
>> All so divi key
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On May 28, 2013, at 11:15 AM, "Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]" <nugenta at mail.nih.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> Jameco has everything.
>>>
>>> So does Mouser.  Mouser is sometimes better if you want small quantities of things.
>>>
>>> A
>>> --------------------------
>>> Sent using BlackBerry
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: cheater00 . [mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 01:54 PM
>>> To: synth-diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should I    get?
>>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>> I want to put more emphasis on building whole circuits rather than
>>> tuning and repairing existing ones and so I was wondering if someone
>>> could help me out. I've got the gear but I don't have the resources -
>>> that is, I'm missing the parts to build circuits with. I would like to
>>> build things like filters (diode/transistor ladder, SVF), small line
>>> amps, oscillators, etc. Other than a rich supply of ssm2164's, what do
>>> you guys suggest I get? I'd like to make one big order from
>>> reichelt/mouser/etc so that I don't have to buy and wait every few
>>> days and get stalled over and over.
>>>
>>> I'm sure a lot of people are in my situation, so maybe this could be a
>>> good place for them to look for ideas. Or maybe there's a guide like
>>> this already?
>>>
>>> Here's an ad-hoc list of stuff I'd like to build:
>>> - general modular synth stuff, so the usual: VCAs, LFOs, VCOs, VCFs,
>>> ring modulators, etc.
>>> - distortions/fuzzes
>>> - build some cool circuits with op amps, transistors, diodes, OTAs,
>>> VCAs (be it amps/distortions, or filters)
>>> - small power supplies for the above
>>> - small preamps and line drivers
>>> - simple Z80 based circuits
>>> - equalizers
>>> - LC, LR, RC, LRC filters, wien bridge osc, stuff like that
>>>
>>> The idea is to identify a parts list that's going to be enough for
>>> longer experimentation. Assume there's nothing on my workbench other
>>> than a good soldering iron with solder, scope, dmm, and assorted other
>>> audio test equipment.
>>>
>>> What would you suggest I buy for the below, and how many? If an item
>>> is not available new anymore, could you add info on places that stock
>>> them? The idea is to name the classics that are used in a lot of
>>> circuits, but also name some of the goodies that are currently
>>> considered very good, without going overboard.
>>>
>>> - op amps (staple)
>>>
>>> - op amps (go wild and name some good ones)
>>>
>>> - VCAs (can you recommend any other than our beloved 2164?)
>>>
>>> - OTAs
>>>
>>> - transistors (BJT and FET)
>>>
>>> - transistor arrays (BJT and FET)
>>>
>>> - zener diodes
>>>
>>> - other diodes
>>>
>>> - germanium transistors
>>>
>>> - germanium diodes
>>>
>>> - other non-linear active elements
>>>
>>> - other ICs
>>>
>>> - voltage references (REF series?)
>>>
>>> - tempco's
>>>
>>> - resistors
>>>
>>> - potentiometers
>>>
>>> - capacitors (electrolytic)
>>>
>>> - capacitors (film)
>>>
>>> - inductors
>>>
>>> - switches
>>>
>>> - connectors (big 'n' small)
>>>
>>> - dip sockets
>>>
>>> - heatsinks
>>>
>>> - other mechanical elements
>>>
>>> - esd mat(s) and tools?
>>>
>>> - Z80 related stuff?
>>>
>>> - good simple ADCs and DACs
>>>
>>> - wire
>>>
>>> - PCBs
>>>
>>> - anything else I left out?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for any help. You guys are great.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> D.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Tue May 28 20:49:17 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:49:17 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should
 I get?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUg0hTRt_PzKhoa+rMm1HfL6t8O-k0ee8EeLYJTH5w1mgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2ABB13B6-4B9F-4723-9B76-3A21B5829661@earthlink.net>
	<C8161699639FAA44AA4D5FFF39CED88506341919@MLBXV01.nih.gov>
	<CA+9GZUg0hTRt_PzKhoa+rMm1HfL6t8O-k0ee8EeLYJTH5w1mgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130528184917.GA740@gjcp.net>

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 08:29:42PM +0200, cheater00 . wrote:
> Right guys, Jameco and Mouser are good, but it's not about where to
> get the parts, but what actual parts to get. What do you suggest?

The parts you need to build the thing you want...

If you know what you want to build, you know what parts you need.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ



From music.maker at gte.net  Tue May 28 20:53:04 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:53:04 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts
 should	I get?
Message-ID: <201305281853.r4SIr4M3018715@linux7.lan>


"cheater00 ." <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>Right guys, Jameco and Mouser are good, but it's not about where to
>get the parts, but what actual parts to get. What do you suggest?

Collect the schematics you want first.

Look at the Bill Of Materials if it exists, failing that make your own BOM by
making a list of the components in those schematics.

Do this with many schematics of interest and you will see what is common.  You
then have a list of "stuff to get".

As bystanders, we can't really know what would most interest you in particular.
 Sure, some things are pretty common like 10K resistors, but the more
specialized parts, matched transistors, OTA types, vactrols, tempcos etc., you
will find in the schematics.

Making such a list as I described will help you make the best investment in a
parts stock.

>
>D.
>
>On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]
><nugenta at mail.nih.gov> wrote:
>> I suspect that was an autocorrect mutilation of digikey.
>> --------------------------
>> Sent using BlackBerry
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Terry Shultz [mailto:thx1138 at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 02:18 PM
>> To: Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]
>> Cc: cheater00 at gmail.com <cheater00 at gmail.com>; 
>synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> > 
>Subject: Re: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What 
>parts should I get? > > All so divi key > > Sent from my iPad > > 
>On May 28, 2013, at 11:15 AM, "Nugent, Allison C. (NIH/NIMH) [E]" 
><nugenta at mail.nih.gov> wrote: > >> Jameco has everything. >> >> 
>So does Mouser. Mouser is sometimes better if you want small 
>quantities of things. >> >> A >> -------------------------- >> 
>Sent using BlackBerry >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> 
>From: cheater00 . [mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, 
>May 28, 2013 01:54 PM >> To: synth-diy 
><synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> >> Subject: [sdiy] I want to start 
>building audio stuff. What parts should I get? >> >> Hi guys, >> 
>I want to put more emphasis on building whole circuits rather 
>than >> tuning and repairing existing ones and so I was wondering 
>if someone >> could help me out. I've got the gear but I don't 
>have the resources - >> that is, I'm missing the parts to build 
>circuits with. I would like to >> build things like filters 
>(diode/transistor ladder, SVF), small line >> amps, oscillators, 
>etc. Other than a rich supply of ssm2164's, what do >> you guys 
>suggest I get? I'd like to make one big order from >> 
>reichelt/mouser/etc so that I don't have to buy and wait every 
>few >> days and get stalled over and over. >> >> I'm sure a lot 
>of people are in my situation, so maybe this could be a >> good 
>place for them to look for ideas. Or maybe there's a guide like 
>>> this already? >> >> Here's an ad-hoc list of stuff I'd like to 
>build: >> - general modular synth stuff, so the usual: VCAs, 
>LFOs, VCOs, VCFs, >> ring modulators, etc. >> - 
>distortions/fuzzes >> - build some cool circuits with op amps, 
>transistors, diodes, OTAs, >> VCAs (be it amps/distortions, or 
>filters) >> - small power supplies for the above >> - small 
>preamps and line drivers >> - simple Z80 based circuits >> - 
>equalizers >> - LC, LR, RC, LRC filters, wien bridge osc, stuff 
>like that >> >> The idea is to identify a parts list that's going 
>to be enough for >> longer experimentation. Assume there's 
>nothing on my workbench other >> than a good soldering iron with 
>solder, scope, dmm, and assorted other >> audio test equipment. 
>>> >> What would you suggest I buy for the below, and how many? 
>If an item >> is not available new anymore, could you add info on 
>places that stock >> them? The idea is to name the classics that 
>are used in a lot of >> circuits, but also name some of the 
>goodies that are currently >> considered very good, without going 
>overboard. >> >> - op amps (staple) >> >> - op amps (go wild and 
>name some good ones) >> >> - VCAs (can you recommend any other 
>than our beloved 2164?) >> >> - OTAs >> >> - transistors (BJT and 
>FET) >> >> - transistor arrays (BJT and FET) >> >> - zener diodes 
>>> >> - other diodes >> >> - germanium transistors >> >> - 
>germanium diodes >> >> - other non-linear active elements >> >> - 
>other ICs >> >> - voltage references (REF series?) >> >> - 
>tempco's >> >> - resistors >> >> - potentiometers >> >> - 
>capacitors (electrolytic) >> >> - capacitors (film) >> >> - 
>inductors >> >> - switches >> >> - connectors (big 'n' small) >> 
>>> - dip sockets >> >> - heatsinks >> >> - other mechanical 
>elements >> >> - esd mat(s) and tools? >> >> - Z80 related stuff? 
>>> >> - good simple ADCs and DACs >> >> - wire >> >> - PCBs >> >> 
>- anything else I left out? >> >> >> Thanks for any help. You 
>guys are great. >> >> Cheers, >> D. >> 
>_______________________________________________ >> Synth-diy 
>mailing list >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl >> 
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy >> 
>_______________________________________________ >> Synth-diy 
>mailing list >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl >> 
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
>_______________________________________________ Synth-diy mailing 
>list Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
>

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From igg.debus at t-online.de  Tue May 28 21:06:56 2013
From: igg.debus at t-online.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 21:06:56 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should
	I get?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>


Am 28.05.2013 um 19:54 schrieb cheater00 .:

> - simple Z80 based circuits

Z80!! Why on earth would you want to do that?? There are so many nice and easy to use microcontrollers around these days. As every early microprocessor, the Z80 has no on-chip Flash ROM or other nonvolatile memory, no on-chip RAM, no on-chip peripherals like timers or serial ports. Besides that, the Z80 assembly language is a nightmare.

Re other parts: if I were you, I'd do it the other way round. First look for a project you want to build and then source the parts. For almost every project there will be some parts that you don't have, so you'll need to get some parts anyway. If some of the parts are common, get a few more than you need.
What's always handy is a set of common resistors (E12 series or perhaps E24) and capacitors.
If you want to build something with inductors, the real fun starts with winding them yourself. It's not difficult! You know my video?

Ingo

From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Tue May 28 21:21:09 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 12:21:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts shouldI
	get?
In-Reply-To: <7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <6D725BC531EB4251AF7D5CDFE3F802BC@galvanox01>

This reminds me of Monty Python's library sketch....



From nate at paperproductsmusic.com  Tue May 28 22:34:37 2013
From: nate at paperproductsmusic.com (Nathanael King)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 16:34:37 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [AH] CL : Vintage EMU MODULAR SYNTHESIZER Parts-VERY RARE
 (santa cruz) $4800
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUiJH4n+kVX4UGRmBVOVKv62CQfqfybPdM5JuW-97Q8caw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <lhklk1tqukxekkfx5bv1h9xn.1369759348985@email.android.com>
	<2F67318E9986624E8D30B7C664E892C71E51CB60@PRDEXM001.act.gov.au>
	<2D665004-0BA9-4BD3-8746-992A080AEFED@earthlink.net>
	<CA+9GZUiJH4n+kVX4UGRmBVOVKv62CQfqfybPdM5JuW-97Q8caw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOysfL7k+S3z4Qr6av1RVheMxjqs-zXSvuAcexD6OThTQ9F0GQ@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone would like to contact me off-list, I saved a copy of the
scans provided by a guy on muffs approximately a year ago.

Nate

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 1:59 PM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Terry, still waiting for those secret EMU archives ;)
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Thx1138 <thx1138 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> $8400.00 was original eBay ad
>>
>> Terry
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 28, 2013, at 10:01 AM, "Wheaton, Simon" <Simon.Wheaton at cit.edu.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Cheaper than what it has been listed for on ebay for a while.
>>>
>>> I think it was listed there for something like $6500 to begin with.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>> Canberra
>>> AUSTRALIA
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> CIT is the ACT Large Training Provider of the Year.
>>> Subscribe to CIT Industry Connection - CIT's free, bi monthly publication:
>>> http://cit.edu.au/industry_business/industry_connection/
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person.
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
Nate King
Paper Products Music


From aym-htnys at teaser.fr  Tue May 28 23:24:16 2013
From: aym-htnys at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 23:24:16 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts
	should	I get?
In-Reply-To: <kgghfrof21971seu4gjil2ir.1369766920025@email.android.com>
References: <CA+9GZUg0hTRt_PzKhoa+rMm1HfL6t8O-k0ee8EeLYJTH5w1mgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<kgghfrof21971seu4gjil2ir.1369766920025@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <20130528212416.GC28680@aym.net2.nerim.net>

On 2013-05-28 11:48 -0700, Dave Manley wrote:

> I seem to recall someone on sdiy has on their website a merged
> component list from many projects.

There's http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/sdiy-parts.txt

-- 
Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From dlmanley at sonic.net  Wed May 29 07:07:02 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 22:07:02 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What
	parts	should	I get?
Message-ID: <5385u2hxel84xrugaisr5w0c.1369804022635@email.android.com>

That's the one :-). 

-------- Original Message --------
 From: Andre Majorel <aym-htnys at teaser.fr>
 Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 02:24 PM
 To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 CC: 
 Subject: Re: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts	should	I get?

>On 2013-05-28 11:48 -0700, Dave Manley wrote:
>
>> I seem to recall someone on sdiy has on their website a merged
>> component list from many projects.
>
>There's http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/sdiy-parts.txt
>
>-- 
>Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>

From davekendall at ntlworld.com  Wed May 29 12:06:27 2013
From: davekendall at ntlworld.com (Dave Kendall)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 11:06:27 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts should
	I get?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D0483BA-C847-11E2-AB40-000393A85F9E@ntlworld.com>

Hi.

This list was compiled specifically for a selection of synth PCBS, but 
may be helpful;

http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/sdiy-parts.txt

There was a thread about this over on (I think ?) Electro-music.com, 
where other people shared their findings.

cheers,
Dave



On 28 May 2013, at 18:54, cheater00 . wrote:

> Hi guys,
> I want to put more emphasis on building whole circuits rather than
> tuning and repairing existing ones and so I was wondering if someone
> could help me out. I've got the gear but I don't have the resources -
> that is, I'm missing the parts to build circuits with. I would like to
> build things like filters (diode/transistor ladder, SVF), small line
> amps, oscillators, etc. Other than a rich supply of ssm2164's, what do
> you guys suggest I get? I'd like to make one big order from
> reichelt/mouser/etc so that I don't have to buy and wait every few
> days and get stalled over and over.
>
> I'm sure a lot of people are in my situation, so maybe this could be a
> good place for them to look for ideas. Or maybe there's a guide like
> this already?
>
> Here's an ad-hoc list of stuff I'd like to build:
> - general modular synth stuff, so the usual: VCAs, LFOs, VCOs, VCFs,
> ring modulators, etc.
> - distortions/fuzzes
> - build some cool circuits with op amps, transistors, diodes, OTAs,
> VCAs (be it amps/distortions, or filters)
> - small power supplies for the above
> - small preamps and line drivers
> - simple Z80 based circuits
> - equalizers
> - LC, LR, RC, LRC filters, wien bridge osc, stuff like that
>
> The idea is to identify a parts list that's going to be enough for
> longer experimentation. Assume there's nothing on my workbench other
> than a good soldering iron with solder, scope, dmm, and assorted other
> audio test equipment.
>
> What would you suggest I buy for the below, and how many? If an item
> is not available new anymore, could you add info on places that stock
> them? The idea is to name the classics that are used in a lot of
> circuits, but also name some of the goodies that are currently
> considered very good, without going overboard.
>
> - op amps (staple)
>
> - op amps (go wild and name some good ones)
>
> - VCAs (can you recommend any other than our beloved 2164?)
>
> - OTAs
>
> - transistors (BJT and FET)
>
> - transistor arrays (BJT and FET)
>
> - zener diodes
>
> - other diodes
>
> - germanium transistors
>
> - germanium diodes
>
> - other non-linear active elements
>
> - other ICs
>
> - voltage references (REF series?)
>
> - tempco's
>
> - resistors
>
> - potentiometers
>
> - capacitors (electrolytic)
>
> - capacitors (film)
>
> - inductors
>
> - switches
>
> - connectors (big 'n' small)
>
> - dip sockets
>
> - heatsinks
>
> - other mechanical elements
>
> - esd mat(s) and tools?
>
> - Z80 related stuff?
>
> - good simple ADCs and DACs
>
> - wire
>
> - PCBs
>
> - anything else I left out?
>
>
> Thanks for any help. You guys are great.
>
> Cheers,
> D.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>



From davekendall at ntlworld.com  Wed May 29 12:49:54 2013
From: davekendall at ntlworld.com (Dave Kendall)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 11:49:54 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts
	should	I get?
In-Reply-To: <20130528212416.GC28680@aym.net2.nerim.net>
References: <CA+9GZUg0hTRt_PzKhoa+rMm1HfL6t8O-k0ee8EeLYJTH5w1mgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<kgghfrof21971seu4gjil2ir.1369766920025@email.android.com>
	<20130528212416.GC28680@aym.net2.nerim.net>
Message-ID: <7ECE9C80-C84D-11E2-AB40-000393A85F9E@ntlworld.com>

Beaten to it !  :-)

cheers,
Dave

On 28 May 2013, at 22:24, Andre Majorel wrote:

> On 2013-05-28 11:48 -0700, Dave Manley wrote:
>
>> I seem to recall someone on sdiy has on their website a merged
>> component list from many projects.
>
> There's http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/misc/sdiy-parts.txt
>
> -- 
> Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>



From elfenjunge at gmx.net  Wed May 29 17:19:37 2013
From: elfenjunge at gmx.net (julian schmidt)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 17:19:37 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] best way to buffer digital out and convert 3V3 to 5V
Message-ID: <51A61C89.6050509@gmx.net>

Hello List,

Lets say I've got a 3V3 microcontroller and want to buffer its outputs 
and bring them up to 5V (or more).
For example use a GPIO of a stm32 to generate 5V trigger signals for 
external gear.
What would be the best way of doing this?

So far the AVR designs I've looked at just connect the GPIOs directly to 
the jack, which does not feel right ;)

My first thought would have been an IC like the 74HC4050 hex buffer.
But a friend warned me of using them to interface to the external world, 
mentioning they are a bit picky concerning output impedance or users 
connecting a signal to the trigger out. His recommendation would be a 
simple transistor to buffer the output.
But for multiple outs I would be more interested in a rugged, multi 
output buffer IC.

Best,
julian


From jays at aracnet.com  Wed May 29 17:41:19 2013
From: jays at aracnet.com (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 08:41:19 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] best way to buffer digital out and convert 3V3 to 5V
In-Reply-To: <51A61C89.6050509@gmx.net>
References: <51A61C89.6050509@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <000001ce5c82$f6c39600$e44ac200$@com>

I'm using these for a 5V serial LED interface and a 5V, 8 bit LCD interface.
There are a number of chips that do this. Also Spark Fun has a little
adapter board that has transistors and resistors to do the same.

SN74LVCC3245A

Jay S.

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of julian schmidt
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:20 AM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] best way to buffer digital out and convert 3V3 to 5V

Hello List,

Lets say I've got a 3V3 microcontroller and want to buffer its outputs 
and bring them up to 5V (or more).
For example use a GPIO of a stm32 to generate 5V trigger signals for 
external gear.
What would be the best way of doing this?

So far the AVR designs I've looked at just connect the GPIOs directly to 
the jack, which does not feel right ;)

My first thought would have been an IC like the 74HC4050 hex buffer.
But a friend warned me of using them to interface to the external world, 
mentioning they are a bit picky concerning output impedance or users 
connecting a signal to the trigger out. His recommendation would be a 
simple transistor to buffer the output.
But for multiple outs I would be more interested in a rugged, multi 
output buffer IC.

Best,
julian
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy




From colin at colinfraser.com  Wed May 29 17:47:47 2013
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 16:47:47 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] best way to buffer digital out and convert 3V3 to 5V
In-Reply-To: <51A61C89.6050509@gmx.net>
References: <51A61C89.6050509@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <8BDEAF10F6BA40B7A006F3110DF7ECA2@c57d>

 

> Lets say I've got a 3V3 microcontroller and want to buffer 
> its outputs and bring them up to 5V (or more).
> For example use a GPIO of a stm32 to generate 5V trigger 
> signals for external gear.
> What would be the best way of doing this?

You can use 74HCT series buffers. The 'T' means TTL compatible thresholds,
which work nicely with 3v3 logic.
e.g. 74HCT244 is an octal buffer/line driver.
 
Cheers,
Colin f




From elfenjunge at gmx.net  Wed May 29 17:52:38 2013
From: elfenjunge at gmx.net (julian schmidt)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 17:52:38 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] best way to buffer digital out and convert 3V3 to 5V
In-Reply-To: <8BDEAF10F6BA40B7A006F3110DF7ECA2@c57d>
References: <51A61C89.6050509@gmx.net> <8BDEAF10F6BA40B7A006F3110DF7ECA2@c57d>
Message-ID: <51A62446.1020009@gmx.net>

Am 29.05.2013 17:47, schrieb Colin f:
>   
>
>> Lets say I've got a 3V3 microcontroller and want to buffer
>> its outputs and bring them up to 5V (or more).
>> For example use a GPIO of a stm32 to generate 5V trigger
>> signals for external gear.
>> What would be the best way of doing this?
> You can use 74HCT series buffers. The 'T' means TTL compatible thresholds,
> which work nicely with 3v3 logic.
> e.g. 74HCT244 is an octal buffer/line driver.
>   
> Cheers,
> Colin f

looks promising on the first glance :)
So line driver was the name I was looking for ;)
Always hard when you know what you want but not it's name.

thanks a lot!
julian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From mars at pingdynasty.com  Wed May 29 18:23:58 2013
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 17:23:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] best way to buffer digital out and convert 3V3 to 5V
In-Reply-To: <51A61C89.6050509@gmx.net>
References: <51A61C89.6050509@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <1B574535-D9D3-4925-80A3-E3BB8F47E0DD@pingdynasty.com>


a transistor will do it, see for example the output stages here (though note that the logic is inverted):
https://github.com/pingdynasty/EuclideanSequencer/blob/master/EuclideanSequencerSchematic.png

/m

On 29 May 2013, at 16:19, julian schmidt wrote:

> Hello List,
> 
> Lets say I've got a 3V3 microcontroller and want to buffer its outputs and bring them up to 5V (or more).
> For example use a GPIO of a stm32 to generate 5V trigger signals for external gear.
> What would be the best way of doing this?
> 
> So far the AVR designs I've looked at just connect the GPIOs directly to the jack, which does not feel right ;)
> 
> My first thought would have been an IC like the 74HC4050 hex buffer.
> But a friend warned me of using them to interface to the external world, mentioning they are a bit picky concerning output impedance or users connecting a signal to the trigger out. His recommendation would be a simple transistor to buffer the output.
> But for multiple outs I would be more interested in a rugged, multi output buffer IC.
> 
> Best,
> julian
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Thu May 30 00:35:16 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 23:35:16 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Wurlitzer 4420 service manual?
Message-ID: <20130529223516.GB4816@gjcp.net>

Anyone got any service information or experience with these old beasts?  Mine has a G ringing constantly.  I've had a quick look online and it looks like each key has a filter that shapes the pulse going to the reed, which I suspect may be the problem - possibly a resistor gone high?

>From what I've found so far the key click filter comprises a bunch of capacitors and 4M7 resistors for each key and stop, but I don't want to just wade in without some sort of diagram unless I have to.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Thu May 30 11:16:20 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 11:16:20 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts shouldI
	get?
In-Reply-To: <6D725BC531EB4251AF7D5CDFE3F802BC@galvanox01>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>
	<6D725BC531EB4251AF7D5CDFE3F802BC@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUhCr1M0kng=O6gZ8ix5SSKoz5-1dL4awOZ7DenWYV+gYA@mail.gmail.com>

I guess you'd expect me to summarize this thread by saying "but I
can't solder"? :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p62uutgNN4c

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 9:21 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> This reminds me of Monty Python's library sketch....
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Thu May 30 12:44:15 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 12:44:15 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts shouldI
	get?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhCr1M0kng=O6gZ8ix5SSKoz5-1dL4awOZ7DenWYV+gYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>
	<6D725BC531EB4251AF7D5CDFE3F802BC@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUhCr1M0kng=O6gZ8ix5SSKoz5-1dL4awOZ7DenWYV+gYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUioFGkFS7gTW3bEDNaJb5-EeekgfdVBQJ5v4H1oVNXiGg@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys, just wanted to say, I'm working my way down through the
lists and setting up a spreadsheet of what's available and what's not
and where and for how much.. This looks like a big task and it might
take a loooong while though :)

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 11:16 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess you'd expect me to summarize this thread by saying "but I
> can't solder"? :)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p62uutgNN4c
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 9:21 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> This reminds me of Monty Python's library sketch....
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From thomas at pdp7.org  Thu May 30 13:16:04 2013
From: thomas at pdp7.org (Thomas Strathmann)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 13:16:04 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts shouldI
 get?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUioFGkFS7gTW3bEDNaJb5-EeekgfdVBQJ5v4H1oVNXiGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>
	<6D725BC531EB4251AF7D5CDFE3F802BC@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUhCr1M0kng=O6gZ8ix5SSKoz5-1dL4awOZ7DenWYV+gYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUioFGkFS7gTW3bEDNaJb5-EeekgfdVBQJ5v4H1oVNXiGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51A734F4.1030707@pdp7.org>

On 5/30/13 12:44 , cheater00 . wrote:
> Hey guys, just wanted to say, I'm working my way down through the
> lists and setting up a spreadsheet of what's available and what's not
> and where and for how much.. This looks like a big task and it might
> take a loooong while though :)

Seems like you're a very seasoned procrastinator. I might be reading the
signs wrong, but judging from experience, any time I start to make
extensive lists of something I don't get anything tangible done in the
end. ;-)

Although it's pretty handy IMO to have a list of parts you have in stock
and if you don't buy parts by the wagonload not much additional work
thatn takes valuable time away from actually building stuff.

	Thomas


From tom at electricdruid.net  Thu May 30 13:43:19 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 12:43:19 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Tricky PCB layout with CA3046
Message-ID: <4079C4B7-5AA4-4A4A-BA1A-5D8EE0420AFD@electricdruid.net>

Hi All,

Is it ok to tie the collector and emitter of an unused transistor on a CA3046 to -12V?

I've got a tricky PCB layout problem, and if I could route the -12V straight through pins 7 and 8, it'd help quite a lot.

It's just an unused transistor, right? It's not connected to anything else on the chip that I need to worry about?

Thanks,
Tom

From mars at pingdynasty.com  Thu May 30 14:10:27 2013
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 13:10:27 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] The Owl: ARM fx pedal
In-Reply-To: <CA3E1927-FD0E-4963-9025-4E21C626D191@pingdynasty.com>
References: <0E987565-A391-4299-A350-0BCF3BFA8921@pingdynasty.com>
	<3D43E6EC-3439-434D-8FEA-469E10E9A34E@earthlink.net>
	<03332A95-D60F-4E31-B124-38AB76FF43BF@earthlink.net>
	<CA3E1927-FD0E-4963-9025-4E21C626D191@pingdynasty.com>
Message-ID: <5974295A-380E-4A53-BC89-9A710162F595@pingdynasty.com>


We've launched!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/marser/owl-programmable-effects-pedal

Big thanks for the help, feedback and encouragement we've received from people on this list!

best,

Martin Klang

From mars at pingdynasty.com  Thu May 30 14:22:22 2013
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 13:22:22 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts shouldI
	get?
In-Reply-To: <51A734F4.1030707@pdp7.org>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>
	<6D725BC531EB4251AF7D5CDFE3F802BC@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUhCr1M0kng=O6gZ8ix5SSKoz5-1dL4awOZ7DenWYV+gYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUioFGkFS7gTW3bEDNaJb5-EeekgfdVBQJ5v4H1oVNXiGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<51A734F4.1030707@pdp7.org>
Message-ID: <BD8DAAD4-E1DA-4000-8BC8-996DC5A2AF4D@pingdynasty.com>


I'm too lazy to keep a complete, up-to-date inventory, but I save all order details in a long, searchable list so that I can at least quickly find out what I 'might' have in stock.

For modules that we have in production, a BOM with inventory spreadsheet is invaluable, even when not 100% accurate.

Asides from that: I wouldn't buy parts myself unless I needed them for something I was actually going to build. However I was advised early on to always order a few extra of everything (within reason), and have found that a great way to build up a collection of useful parts.

Martin

On 30 May 2013, at 12:16, Thomas Strathmann wrote:

> On 5/30/13 12:44 , cheater00 . wrote:
>> Hey guys, just wanted to say, I'm working my way down through the
>> lists and setting up a spreadsheet of what's available and what's not
>> and where and for how much.. This looks like a big task and it might
>> take a loooong while though :)
> 
> Seems like you're a very seasoned procrastinator. I might be reading the
> signs wrong, but judging from experience, any time I start to make
> extensive lists of something I don't get anything tangible done in the
> end. ;-)
> 
> Although it's pretty handy IMO to have a list of parts you have in stock
> and if you don't buy parts by the wagonload not much additional work
> thatn takes valuable time away from actually building stuff.
> 
> 	Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Thu May 30 16:09:24 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 15:09:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Tricky PCB layout with CA3046
In-Reply-To: <4079C4B7-5AA4-4A4A-BA1A-5D8EE0420AFD@electricdruid.net>
References: <4079C4B7-5AA4-4A4A-BA1A-5D8EE0420AFD@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <5039ee9acb9d32435d3d758690098ff9@richieburnett.co.uk>

> Is it ok to tie the collector and emitter of an unused transistor on
> a CA3046 to -12V?
> 
> I've got a tricky PCB layout problem, and if I could route the -12V
> straight through pins 7 and 8, it'd help quite a lot.
> 
> It's just an unused transistor, right? It's not connected to anything
> else on the chip that I need to worry about?

Hi Tom,

I think it depends what you are doing with the emitter of Q5 (pin 13).  
This is connected to the bulk silicon substrate underneath the other 
transistors and must be connected to the most negative voltage present 
of all the transistor connections.  So if your emitter of Q5 (substrate 
pin 13) is already connected to -12V (or even more negative) then you 
can go ahead and connect pins 7 & 8 to -12V without any worry.

However... If the substrate pin 13 is connected to something of greater 
voltage than -12V (such as 0v ground) then you won't be able to take 
pins 7 & 8 down to -12V.  Attempting to do this will forward bias the 
parasitic diode between the Q3 transistor and the substrate and short 
the -12V supply to ground.

Thats my understanding of the issue anyway.  I hope this helps.

If you're really stuck I guess you could always just route the -12V 
track through pins 7 & 8 on the PCB, but snip those IC legs off before 
you fit the 3046 chip in the board!

-Richie,


From oakleylist at btinternet.com  Thu May 30 16:28:51 2013
From: oakleylist at btinternet.com (Oakley Sound)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 15:28:51 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Tricky PCB layout with CA3046
In-Reply-To: <5039ee9acb9d32435d3d758690098ff9@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <4079C4B7-5AA4-4A4A-BA1A-5D8EE0420AFD@electricdruid.net>
	<5039ee9acb9d32435d3d758690098ff9@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <51A76223.6050402@btinternet.com>

Also remember that the maximum voltage across any two parts of the 
CA3046 mustn't exceed 20V. Taking the substrate down to -12 does limit 
the upper voltage to +8V.

Tony

www.oakleysound.com


From niroke at tampabay.rr.com  Thu May 30 17:07:55 2013
From: niroke at tampabay.rr.com (Nicholas Keller)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 11:07:55 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
Message-ID: <95087888-B081-458F-9F28-05B94D7655A8@tampabay.rr.com>

I have a synth that seriously jumps in volume when its filter oscillates.  I know that later generation chips had a way of compensating for this change, keeping the level constant regardless of the resonance setting.  Is there a circuit I could add to my synth that would perform this compensation?  I could use an audio limiter perhaps, but I'm concerned about clipping and squaring off the waveform.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how these chips did it, like the SSM2044 and the later CEMs, and if I could build a similar add-on circuit for my synth (and possibly other modules I have, like the Doepfer A-102).   

I have an idea of adding an envelope follower (inverted) and VCA.  Maybe that's how it was originally done.  

Thanks,
Nick




From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Thu May 30 22:38:35 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 21:38:35 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
Message-ID: <85u91nui6caebtvl0qalde6w.1369944744130@email.android.com>

Do you want to compensate for the perceived drop in overall volume as the resonance is increased, or compensate for the sudden increase in volume at the instant where the filter commences self-oscillation?

The former is often compensated by feeding a fraction of the input signal into the feedback path around the filter, before the resonance control pot. Essentially this acts to increase the filter drive level as the resonance control is increased and the pass-band gain of the filter naturally decreases. You can compensate some fraction or all of the volume drop depending on how much of the input signal you feed into the hot end of the resonance pot in the feedback path. Some of the Roland Juno filters implement this technique.

Another technique is to take some of the filter output from the hot end of the resonance pot, plus an additional amount from the wiper of the resonance pot. See tb-303 schematic for an example of this gain makeup method.

Compensating for the potentially deafening squeal when the filter goes into self-oscillation is different. The amplitude of sustained self-oscillation is determined by the behaviour of non-linearities in the filter. Eg, hard or soft clipping. If the self-oscillation level is much louder than the oscillator signal you can try driving the filter with a hotter signal, and/or introducing soft clipping into the filters feedback path. Some of Rolands SH synths use back to back diodes in the feedback path around the filter to limit the amplitude of self-oscillation.

You didn't say what model your synth is, or the filter topology. So I hope this info is some help to you.

-Richie,

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray

Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>I have a synth that seriously jumps in volume when its filter oscillates.  I know that later generation chips had a way of compensating for this change, keeping the level constant regardless of the resonance setting.  Is there a circuit I could add to my synth that would perform this compensation?  I could use an audio limiter perhaps, but I'm concerned about clipping and squaring off the waveform.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how these chips did it, like the SSM2044 and the later CEMs, and if I could build a similar add-on circuit for my synth (and possibly other modules I have, like the Doepfer A-102).   
>
>I have an idea of adding an envelope follower (inverted) and VCA.  Maybe that's how it was originally done.  
>
>Thanks,
>Nick
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu May 30 23:00:22 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 14:00:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts shouldI
	get?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhCr1M0kng=O6gZ8ix5SSKoz5-1dL4awOZ7DenWYV+gYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>
	<6D725BC531EB4251AF7D5CDFE3F802BC@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUhCr1M0kng=O6gZ8ix5SSKoz5-1dL4awOZ7DenWYV+gYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25F18A724D3E418BA7FE9DAED361F638@galvanox01>

> I guess you'd expect me to summarize this thread by saying 
> "but I can't solder"? :)

I'll solder it for you!!!!!!!!!!



From niroke at tampabay.rr.com  Thu May 30 23:27:22 2013
From: niroke at tampabay.rr.com (Nicholas Keller)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 17:27:22 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
In-Reply-To: <85u91nui6caebtvl0qalde6w.1369944744130@email.android.com>
References: <85u91nui6caebtvl0qalde6w.1369944744130@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <02fc01ce5d7c$7a73cb60$6f5b6220$@rr.com>


Richie,

  It's the deafening squeal one.  The synth is an Octave Cat SRM with an SSM2040 based filter.  Here is the schematic:

http://i.imgur.com/R028I6l.jpg

I see D30 and D31 in the SH-101 schematics, so I could try that.  Looks easy enough.  I don't know what an equivalent diode is to that: 1s2473.  I'll look it up online if you don't have a suggestion.  The 101 has other parts between the Q wiper and the diodes though, TR26 and TR27, etc.  I don't know what those do.... http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%20Manual.pdf page 9

If you hadn't guessed, I'm rather uneducated in regards to electronics.  I've built a few things, modded a few things, but I still don't "get it".
 I appreciate your help.  

nick





-----Original Message-----
From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:39 PM
To: Nicholas Keller; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q

Do you want to compensate for the perceived drop in overall volume as the resonance is increased, or compensate for the sudden increase in volume at the instant where the filter commences self-oscillation?

The former is often compensated by feeding a fraction of the input signal into the feedback path around the filter, before the resonance control pot. Essentially this acts to increase the filter drive level as the resonance control is increased and the pass-band gain of the filter naturally decreases. You can compensate some fraction or all of the volume drop depending on how much of the input signal you feed into the hot end of the resonance pot in the feedback path. Some of the Roland Juno filters implement this technique.

Another technique is to take some of the filter output from the hot end of the resonance pot, plus an additional amount from the wiper of the resonance pot. See tb-303 schematic for an example of this gain makeup method.

Compensating for the potentially deafening squeal when the filter goes into self-oscillation is different. The amplitude of sustained self-oscillation is determined by the behaviour of non-linearities in the filter. Eg, hard or soft clipping. If the self-oscillation level is much louder than the oscillator signal you can try driving the filter with a hotter signal, and/or introducing soft clipping into the filters feedback path. Some of Rolands SH synths use back to back diodes in the feedback path around the filter to limit the amplitude of self-oscillation.

You didn't say what model your synth is, or the filter topology. So I hope this info is some help to you.

-Richie,

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray

Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>I have a synth that seriously jumps in volume when its filter oscillates.  I know that later generation chips had a way of compensating for this change, keeping the level constant regardless of the resonance setting.  Is there a circuit I could add to my synth that would perform this compensation?  I could use an audio limiter perhaps, but I'm concerned about clipping and squaring off the waveform.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how these chips did it, like the SSM2044 and the later CEMs, and if I could build a similar add-on circuit for my synth (and possibly other modules I have, like the Doepfer A-102).   
>
>I have an idea of adding an envelope follower (inverted) and VCA.  Maybe that's how it was originally done.  
>
>Thanks,
>Nick
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From cheater00 at gmail.com  Thu May 30 23:50:26 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 23:50:26 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] I want to start building audio stuff. What parts shouldI
	get?
In-Reply-To: <25F18A724D3E418BA7FE9DAED361F638@galvanox01>
References: <CA+9GZUjzmvHG9L7Og8_OT9ONDq6JZ5wt=70vp4kBWiN1n2nM1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<7722975C-8BCB-42E2-8A1F-254C5BE78898@t-online.de>
	<6D725BC531EB4251AF7D5CDFE3F802BC@galvanox01>
	<CA+9GZUhCr1M0kng=O6gZ8ix5SSKoz5-1dL4awOZ7DenWYV+gYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<25F18A724D3E418BA7FE9DAED361F638@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUj+fpPpGJwFCEKJM2cWraFkemNKGWz8s59UpjrFkQ+u1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Last time I asked you, nothing came out of it >;P

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 11:00 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> I guess you'd expect me to summarize this thread by saying
>> "but I can't solder"? :)
>
> I'll solder it for you!!!!!!!!!!
>


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri May 31 00:02:59 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 23:02:59 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
References: <85u91nui6caebtvl0qalde6w.1369944744130@email.android.com>
	<02fc01ce5d7c$7a73cb60$6f5b6220$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <18CF1BB802274BFEBB5BC0267BF495BF@homepc002>

> I see D30 and D31 in the SH-101 schematics, so I could try that.  Looks 
> easy enough.  I don't know what an equivalent diode is to that: 1s2473. 
> I'll look it up online if you don't have a suggestion.
> The 101 has other parts between the Q wiper and the diodes though, TR26 
> and TR27, etc.  I don't know what those do.... 
> http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%
> 20Manual.pdf page 9

I'm not immediately sure what they're doing either.  Take a look at the 
SH-09 service notes, that are easier to follow.  That shows two back-to-back 
signal diodes connected from the wiper of the resonance pot to ground.  You 
can use any signal diodes you want here like 1N4148, 1N914 etc,  You can 
play about with the resistor values surrounding this diode clipper to set 
the level at which the self-oscillation settles out.  Although as an owner 
of an SH-09 I can say that the filter still sounds quite loud when it self 
oscillates!  But, I think this is quite common behaviour for analogue 
monosynths?

Another thing you can try is to increase the amplitude of the oscillator 
signals driving the filter.  However, this will increase distortion in the 
filter so it might noticeably alter the sound when the filter isn't self 
oscillating.

-Richie, 



From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri May 31 00:22:30 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 23:22:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
In-Reply-To: <02fc01ce5d7c$7a73cb60$6f5b6220$@rr.com>
References: <85u91nui6caebtvl0qalde6w.1369944744130@email.android.com>
	<02fc01ce5d7c$7a73cb60$6f5b6220$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <49C8003E-5469-478C-97C8-60EABF9352E3@electricdruid.net>

Interesting filter design, that. What is it exactly? Comparing it with the SSM2040 data sheet, it looks most like a couple of 2-pole SVFs stuck end to end, with feedback round the whole lot - a bit like the Jupiter 6. Or am I completely wrong?

Tom

On 30 May 2013, at 22:27, Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> 
> Richie,
> 
>  It's the deafening squeal one.  The synth is an Octave Cat SRM with an SSM2040 based filter.  Here is the schematic:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/R028I6l.jpg
> 
> I see D30 and D31 in the SH-101 schematics, so I could try that.  Looks easy enough.  I don't know what an equivalent diode is to that: 1s2473.  I'll look it up online if you don't have a suggestion.  The 101 has other parts between the Q wiper and the diodes though, TR26 and TR27, etc.  I don't know what those do.... http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%20Manual.pdf page 9
> 
> If you hadn't guessed, I'm rather uneducated in regards to electronics.  I've built a few things, modded a few things, but I still don't "get it".
> I appreciate your help.  
> 
> nick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk] 
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:39 PM
> To: Nicholas Keller; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
> 
> Do you want to compensate for the perceived drop in overall volume as the resonance is increased, or compensate for the sudden increase in volume at the instant where the filter commences self-oscillation?
> 
> The former is often compensated by feeding a fraction of the input signal into the feedback path around the filter, before the resonance control pot. Essentially this acts to increase the filter drive level as the resonance control is increased and the pass-band gain of the filter naturally decreases. You can compensate some fraction or all of the volume drop depending on how much of the input signal you feed into the hot end of the resonance pot in the feedback path. Some of the Roland Juno filters implement this technique.
> 
> Another technique is to take some of the filter output from the hot end of the resonance pot, plus an additional amount from the wiper of the resonance pot. See tb-303 schematic for an example of this gain makeup method.
> 
> Compensating for the potentially deafening squeal when the filter goes into self-oscillation is different. The amplitude of sustained self-oscillation is determined by the behaviour of non-linearities in the filter. Eg, hard or soft clipping. If the self-oscillation level is much louder than the oscillator signal you can try driving the filter with a hotter signal, and/or introducing soft clipping into the filters feedback path. Some of Rolands SH synths use back to back diodes in the feedback path around the filter to limit the amplitude of self-oscillation.
> 
> You didn't say what model your synth is, or the filter topology. So I hope this info is some help to you.
> 
> -Richie,
> 
> Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray
> 
> Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> 
>> I have a synth that seriously jumps in volume when its filter oscillates.  I know that later generation chips had a way of compensating for this change, keeping the level constant regardless of the resonance setting.  Is there a circuit I could add to my synth that would perform this compensation?  I could use an audio limiter perhaps, but I'm concerned about clipping and squaring off the waveform.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how these chips did it, like the SSM2044 and the later CEMs, and if I could build a similar add-on circuit for my synth (and possibly other modules I have, like the Doepfer A-102).   
>> 
>> I have an idea of adding an envelope follower (inverted) and VCA.  Maybe that's how it was originally done.  
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Nick
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri May 31 00:41:58 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 23:41:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
Message-ID: <olvi9t2pcyy0h3gt8d0igu79.1369953718176@email.android.com>

Yes, two cascaded 2nd-order state variable filters to give an overall 4 pole response. Then with global feedback around it to achieve resonance like in the classic moog ladder.

Any interesting behavior might come about if the two state variable filters are designed with different Q factors. But I think any difference would probably become quite small once the resonance pot is increased and global negative feedback is applied around the SVFs.

-Richie,

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray

Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:

>Interesting filter design, that. What is it exactly? Comparing it with the SSM2040 data sheet, it looks most like a couple of 2-pole SVFs stuck end to end, with feedback round the whole lot - a bit like the Jupiter 6. Or am I completely wrong?
>
>Tom
>
>On 30 May 2013, at 22:27, Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> 
>> Richie,
>> 
>>  It's the deafening squeal one.  The synth is an Octave Cat SRM with an SSM2040 based filter.  Here is the schematic:
>> 
>> http://i.imgur.com/R028I6l.jpg
>> 
>> I see D30 and D31 in the SH-101 schematics, so I could try that.  Looks easy enough.  I don't know what an equivalent diode is to that: 1s2473.  I'll look it up online if you don't have a suggestion.  The 101 has other parts between the Q wiper and the diodes though, TR26 and TR27, etc.  I don't know what those do.... http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%20Manual.pdf page 9
>> 
>> If you hadn't guessed, I'm rather uneducated in regards to electronics.  I've built a few things, modded a few things, but I still don't "get it".
>> I appreciate your help.  
>> 
>> nick
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk] 
>> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:39 PM
>> To: Nicholas Keller; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
>> 
>> Do you want to compensate for the perceived drop in overall volume as the resonance is increased, or compensate for the sudden increase in volume at the instant where the filter commences self-oscillation?
>> 
>> The former is often compensated by feeding a fraction of the input signal into the feedback path around the filter, before the resonance control pot. Essentially this acts to increase the filter drive level as the resonance control is increased and the pass-band gain of the filter naturally decreases. You can compensate some fraction or all of the volume drop depending on how much of the input signal you feed into the hot end of the resonance pot in the feedback path. Some of the Roland Juno filters implement this technique.
>> 
>> Another technique is to take some of the filter output from the hot end of the resonance pot, plus an additional amount from the wiper of the resonance pot. See tb-303 schematic for an example of this gain makeup method.
>> 
>> Compensating for the potentially deafening squeal when the filter goes into self-oscillation is different. The amplitude of sustained self-oscillation is determined by the behaviour of non-linearities in the filter. Eg, hard or soft clipping. If the self-oscillation level is much louder than the oscillator signal you can try driving the filter with a hotter signal, and/or introducing soft clipping into the filters feedback path. Some of Rolands SH synths use back to back diodes in the feedback path around the filter to limit the amplitude of self-oscillation.
>> 
>> You didn't say what model your synth is, or the filter topology. So I hope this info is some help to you.
>> 
>> -Richie,
>> 
>> Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray
>> 
>> Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I have a synth that seriously jumps in volume when its filter oscillates.  I know that later generation chips had a way of compensating for this change, keeping the level constant regardless of the resonance setting.  Is there a circuit I could add to my synth that would perform this compensation?  I could use an audio limiter perhaps, but I'm concerned about clipping and squaring off the waveform.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how these chips did it, like the SSM2044 and the later CEMs, and if I could build a similar add-on circuit for my synth (and possibly other modules I have, like the Doepfer A-102).   
>>> 
>>> I have an idea of adding an envelope follower (inverted) and VCA.  Maybe that's how it was originally done.  
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nick
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri May 31 14:11:41 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 13:11:41 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
In-Reply-To: <031801ce5d9a$362f7670$a28e6350$@rr.com>
References: <olvi9t2pcyy0h3gt8d0igu79.1369953718176@email.android.com>
	<031801ce5d9a$362f7670$a28e6350$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <c1ddcb94204fdfcfd1534e193715184c@richieburnett.co.uk>

The plots that Bernie included in the Email you forwarded to me are 
called Root-locus plots.  Root locus is a technique used by control 
systems engineers to determine how the poles of a system move as 
feedback is applied around the system.  This is usually done to get a 
feel for how stable a system is when feedback is applied, and what the 
bandwidth will be.  It's a very common engineering tool, and it's useful 
for analysing analogue filters (and also digital filters!) for musical 
applications.  Specific types of filter like 2-pole SVF or Moog 4-pole 
cascade exhibit very recognisable root-locus shapes like circular arcs 
or X-shapes, and this is one of the reasons why all lowpass filters 
don't sound the same.

So in order to answer your many questions about why certain 
configurations exhibit resonance and others don't, it's probably time to 
get out a control theory book and brush up on maths like Laplace 
functions, AC analysis and root-locus.  These techniques combined with a 
Pspice circuit simulation package, are very powerful for trying out 
different filter connections and gaining an understanding for why some 
combinations work, and others don't do what you had expected!

-Richie,



On 2013-05-31 02:00, Nicholas Keller wrote:
> Richie, Tom, Olivier, and anyone else....
> 
>  I'm straying from my original question now, but if you're at all
> interested in some other things I'm trying to squeeze out of this
> filter, I'd be grateful for your, well, feedback.? I've been in touch
> with Bernie Hutchins who seemed very interested but veered a bit
> off-topic before losing touch (I'll paste my conversation with Bernie
> below, you might understand it better than I), and more recently with
> Carmine Bonanno, the designer and founder of
> Octave-Plateau/Voyetra/Turtle Beach, but he really doesn't recall the
> circuits off-hand and has no archive, though he said he was willing to
> field some questions.? I just haven't had time to ask him.?
> 
> ??
> 
> Being that it is two cascading SVFs, I'm trying to make it
> multimode.? The Cat SRM was originally offered with a series of
> optional factory mods.? You can see the list of mods here:
> ?http://niroke.blogspot.com/2013/03/octave-cat-srm-factory-modifications.html
> [1]?? Mine came with the 12/24dB mod and the HP/LP mod, however these
> did not work properly.? I managed to figure out why the 4pole HP mode
> didn't work.... because the mods didn't switch the mode from the first
> section going into the second, so the 2pole LP always fed the second
> stage which made the 4pole HP disappear.?
> 
> ??
> 
> Maybe I should have left it at that, but when I found out I could
> also tap BP modes, and perhaps a Notch, I wanted to max it out.? I set
> up a 2pole, 6-way rotary switch to select the mode feeding the second
> stage and the tap point feeding the VCA. It looks like this:?
> http://i.imgur.com/gtyGktQ.png [2]
> 
> The problem with this configuration is that the BP mode is not as
> loud as the HP and LP modes, some modes are inverted and some aren't,
> but mainly the 4pole HP mode has no resonance at all.? I'm thinking
> this might have something to do with the fact that the feedback is
> from the 4pole LP tap, but in HP4 the second stage is fed by HP2.? In
> this case LP4 has little to no signal.?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_WkSj14C-k [3] Here's a video showing
> that the modes do work, though it's hard to tell a difference between
> any of the 12 and 24dB modes, except that HP4 has no resonance. That
> is at the very end and is only for a few seconds.? The Notch I tried
> didn't have much effect, Bernie says that accurate components are
> important to achieve this mode, and I have purchased 1% resistors and
> 5% caps for the filter section but haven't installed them yet.
> 
> ? I invested in some Electronotes from Bernie, and a couple of his
> "books", and noticed a few variations of SVFs and several filters
> based on the SSM2040.? In some of the filters, the feedback was tapped
> from the BP4 point.? Can anyone explain the benefit of this, or the
> difference it would make.? Is this the necessary feedback source if
> wanting to have modes other than LP? ?Other versions of the Dual SVF
> design uses a separate feedback path for each section.? I tried
> several different ways of configuring my SRM board (feedback from LP2,
> BP4, HP4(for HP4 mode only) and also sending the selected mode output
> to the final inverting amp in the filter circuit rather than to the
> VCA) but got poor results.? Either there was no resonance (presumably
> because the point being tapped was inverted from the input, this
> wouldn't work right? Although, Richie, in your reply you mention
> global negative feedback) .... there was a strange cross-modulated
> effect occurring like two FM'd oscillators slowing to a stop .... or
> with self-oscillation occurring, adjusting the cutoff above or below
> (I don't remember now) a certain point would cause the feedback to
> disappear until Q and Fc were reset to medium levels.? I should have
> better documented these results with video, etc.? I can if you think
> it will be helpful. ??
> 
> I'd really appreciate any help you guys can give me, suggestions of
> things to try, etc.
> 
> See below for my email to Bernie and Bernie's thoughts, though some
> of it is repeated from above,
> 
> nick
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Hello, Mr. Hutchins.
> 
>  I recently received my box from you containing the MEH and PCC, as
> well as the Electronotes you used to fill the box. Some of those pages
> seem to have specific relevance to a project I am working on. I had
> already done some experimenting before I ordered this literature from
> you, and had seemed to be stumped. Now I see that there may be good
> reason that my circuit is not completely functional. (ELECTRONOTES
> VOLUME 10, NUMBER 85, PAGES 12-17:? "OBTAINING BANDPASS AND HIGHPASS
> FUNCTIONS FROM A FOUR-POLE LOWPASS" AND "PRESENT DAY VCF DESIGN
> OPTIONS",? JANUARY 1978)
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/gtyGktQ.png [2]
> 
> The link above is an edited version of the OCTAVE CAT SRM FILTER
> board, with an added 2x6 rotary switch. I bought this keyboard with
> factory modifications installed, however, they were not performed
> properly. The modifications included a switch to select 2 or 4 pole
> slope, and a switch to select HP or LP mode, so that's four mode in
> all. The 4poleHP mode had almost no output. I began trying to work out
> how the mod should have been done.
> 
> Someone told me that the SRM's 2040-based filter was a state variable
> design, and that 2 and 4pole versions of HP, BP, and LP were available
> to be tapped. The locations on the image above are where he told me to
> tap them, however, he drew me an image with a single pole, 6-way
> rotary. This didn't make sense to me, I thought that the input to the
> second 2pole filter stage needed to be switched to match the selected
> 4pole output. This is why the factory 4poleHP mod didn't work, the
> input was always LP. The image above shows how I wired my 2x6 rotary
> as well as where I cut traces to return my switch outputs. I did
> attempt to tap LP4 and return the selected filter mode to the junction
> of SSM pin10/R175 and R183, after cutting the trace there of course.
> But that didn't seem to work either.
> 
> All the modes appear to work, except that THE 4POLEHP MODE HAS NO
> RESONANCE. Also, when I attempted to create a Notch mode, it had
> practically no effect. I noticed that you say the tolerance of
> components are important to achieve a Notch mode, otherwise it becomes
> "washed out" (page 15). I am planning to replace all the resistors
> with 1%, and will attempt to replace the capacitors with more accurate
> caps. I don't know that this will solve my problem with the HP4 Q. I
> notice in some of the other state variable filters in Electronotes
> (like inEN#84, PAGES 17-18? "READER'S CIRCUITS - VCF WITH SSM2040 BY
> RICH RYAN), the feedback is drawn from the Bandpass output, rather
> than the Lowpass output. The person who told me about the tap points
> said that the feedback HAD TO come from the Lowpass output. This
> confused me as well, because if my rotary is switching the input to
> stage 2, when I select HP4 mode (therefore HP2 feeds stage 2), there
> would be very little signal at the LP output to create resonance (much
> like the non-working factory mod). I tried to use the BP4 output for a
> feedback source, but that didn't provide the HP4 mode with resonance
> either. The BP modes don't seem to have the same volume as the LP and
> HP modes. In FIGURE 21 ON PAGE 17, and on PAGE 16,?it is stated that a
> dual state variable REQUIRES SEPARATE RESONANCE CONTROLS FOR EACH
> SECTION.? ?Could this perhaps be part of my problem with HP4's Q?
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> Hi Nick -
> 
> Good questions. Let me try to begin answering it with a few comments
> and we can go from there. I don't understand your questions
> completely, which reflects not on your ability to ask a question, or
> so much on my inability to put my mind in gear, but the fact that the
> matter is complex and better attacked in parts.
> 
> First of all, the diagram you sent is correctly thought out. You are
> correct that you need the two-pole six-position switch. Putting a
> low-pass and high-pass in series would be a no-pass. Thus in the
> correct version you sent you are suggesting a classic cascade approach
> to fourth-order. The following comments may be useful.
> 
> (1) For the moment, we assume that both state-variable sections have
> the same frequency and the same Q. They are identical. Later you can
> change these with additional possibilities (probably too many
> possibilities).
> 
> (2) I am not sure a fourth-order bandpass is worth the trouble. You
> are usually using bandpass with high Q, and whether the "skirts" are
> 6db or 12db probably matters little. If you were, however, to offset
> the two filters slightly in frequency (which we are agreeing to
> postpone), you could toy with the idea of a bandpass plateau rather
> than a single peak.
> 
> (3) With low-pass cascading to low-pass, you indeed get a
> fourth-order low-pass, but NOT a Moog low-pass in general. You simply
> get the product (square in this case) of the second-order low-pass.
> You could set the Q's to different values, and get, for example,
> Butterworth, but there is nothing especially useful about Butterworth.
> So this cascade is likely sharper than Moog, two pairs of higher Q
> poles instead of Moog's single pair (heading for the j-omega axis)
> with a second pair moving away (on the corners of a square - see first
> fig). The second pair of poles (facing away) result in the eventual 24
> db roll-off. I suspect that the "mystic" values of the Moog is due to
> this delayed roll-off. (It could also be imaginary!).
> 
>  figure shown for gains of 0, 1/2, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, and
> finally 4. Different shapes and colors just to separate poles.
> 
> (4) You CAN achieve a classic Moog (as fig above) exactly with your
> setup, if you implement the feedback loop. I am not sure if you say
> you tried this and failed, or not? If you set the Q of the two
> sections both to 1/2, you have four first-order low-pass sections in
> series, and the feedback around it peaks and eventually oscillates at
> a loop gain of 4. Of course, the polarity of the feedback needs to be
> right.
> 
> (5) So far, this is not new stuff. But out notion of using two-state
> variables with Q=1/2 was just to get the classic Moog 4-pole back. I
> never tried it any other way, but this is a good chance. It only took
> me 15 minutes to write the code for the figure above, and then you
> just change one number. Suppose the original Q's were Butterworth,
> Q=l/sqrt(2). We get the next figure:
> 
> Here there are two pair of poles starting at -1/sqrt(2) +/- j
> /sqrt(2) when the gain is 0,(instead of four poles at -1). As gain
> increases to 1/2, 1, 1/5, and then to 2, the poles move to the j-omega
> axis at a frequency of 1. I didn't know this until I just now tried
> it! Thanks. So, as one might expect, if we start with a higher Q, we
> get oscillation at a lower gain (2 instead of 4). Note that
> 
> 2 * (1/sqrt(2))^2 =1. Neat.
> 
> So first thanks for prompting me to look at this. I may well add it
> to some future report. In the mean time, I probably have told you some
> things without answering your actual question(s), so please DO keep in
> touch.
> 
> Bernie
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:42 PM
> To: Tom Wiltshire; Nicholas Keller
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
> 
> Yes, two cascaded 2nd-order state variable filters to give an overall
> 4 pole response. Then with global feedback around it to achieve
> resonance like in the classic moog ladder.
> 
> Any interesting behavior might come about if the two state variable
> filters are designed with different Q factors. But I think any
> difference would probably become quite small once the resonance pot is
> increased and global negative feedback is applied around the SVFs.
> 
> -Richie,
> 
> Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray
> 
> Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> 
>> Interesting filter design, that. What is it exactly? Comparing it 
>> with the SSM2040 data sheet, it looks most like a couple of 2-pole 
>> SVFs stuck end to end, with feedback round the whole lot - a bit like 
>> the Jupiter 6. Or am I completely wrong?
> 
>> 
> 
>> Tom
> 
>> 
> 
>> On 30 May 2013, at 22:27, Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> 
>> wrote:
> 
>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Richie,
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> ? It's the deafening squeal one.? The synth is an Octave Cat SRM 
>>> with an SSM2040 based filter.? Here is the schematic:
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> http://i.imgur.com/R028I6l.jpg [4]
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> I see D30 and D31 in the SH-101 schematics, so I could try that.? 
>>> Looks easy enough.? I don't know what an equivalent diode is to that: 
>>> 1s2473.? I'll look it up online if you don't have a suggestion.? The 
>>> 101 has other parts between the Q wiper and the diodes though, TR26 
>>> and TR27, etc.? I don't know what those do.... 
>>> http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%20Manual.pdf 
>>> [5] page 9
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> If you hadn't guessed, I'm rather uneducated in regards to 
>>> electronics.? I've built a few things, modded a few things, but I 
>>> still don't "get it".
> 
>>> I appreciate your help.?
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> nick
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
> 
>>> From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk]
> 
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:39 PM
> 
>>> To: Nicholas Keller; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> 
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Do you want to compensate for the perceived drop in overall volume 
>>> as the resonance is increased, or compensate for the sudden increase 
>>> in volume at the instant where the filter commences self-oscillation?
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> The former is often compensated by feeding a fraction of the input 
>>> signal into the feedback path around the filter, before the resonance 
>>> control pot. Essentially this acts to increase the filter drive level 
>>> as the resonance control is increased and the pass-band gain of the 
>>> filter naturally decreases. You can compensate some fraction or all 
>>> of the volume drop depending on how much of the input signal you feed 
>>> into the hot end of the resonance pot in the feedback path. Some of 
>>> the Roland Juno filters implement this technique.
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Another technique is to take some of the filter output from the hot 
>>> end of the resonance pot, plus an additional amount from the wiper of 
>>> the resonance pot. See tb-303 schematic for an example of this gain 
>>> makeup method.
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Compensating for the potentially deafening squeal when the filter 
>>> goes into self-oscillation is different. The amplitude of sustained 
>>> self-oscillation is determined by the behaviour of non-linearities in 
>>> the filter. Eg, hard or soft clipping. If the self-oscillation level 
>>> is much louder than the oscillator signal you can try driving the 
>>> filter with a hotter signal, and/or introducing soft clipping into 
>>> the filters feedback path. Some of Rolands SH synths use back to back 
>>> diodes in the feedback path around the filter to limit the amplitude 
>>> of self-oscillation.
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> You didn't say what model your synth is, or the filter topology. So 
>>> I hope this info is some help to you.
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> -Richie,
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> 
>>> 
> 
>>>> I have a synth that seriously jumps in volume when its filter 
>>>> oscillates.? I know that later generation chips had a way of 
>>>> compensating for this change, keeping the level constant regardless 
>>>> of the resonance setting.? Is there a circuit I could add to my 
>>>> synth that would perform this compensation?? I could use an audio 
>>>> limiter perhaps, but I'm concerned about clipping and squaring off 
>>>> the waveform.? I'm wondering if anyone knows how these chips did it, 
>>>> like the SSM2044 and the later CEMs, and if I could build a similar 
>>>> add-on circuit for my synth (and possibly other modules I have, like 
>>>> the Doepfer A-102).??
> 
>>>> 
> 
>>>> I have an idea of adding an envelope follower (inverted) and VCA.? 
>>>> Maybe that's how it was originally done.?
> 
>>>> 
> 
>>>> Thanks,
> 
>>>> Nick
> 
>>>> 
> 
>>>> 
> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
> 
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> 
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> 
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy [6]
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> _______________________________________________
> 
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> 
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> 
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy [6]
> 
>> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
> 
>> Synth-diy mailing list
> 
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> 
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy [6]
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] 
> http://niroke.blogspot.com/2013/03/octave-cat-srm-factory-modifications.html
> [2] http://i.imgur.com/gtyGktQ.png
> [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_WkSj14C-k
> [4] http://i.imgur.com/R028I6l.jpg
> [5] 
> http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%20Manual.pdf
> [6] http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri May 31 15:07:37 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 15:07:37 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
In-Reply-To: <c1ddcb94204fdfcfd1534e193715184c@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <olvi9t2pcyy0h3gt8d0igu79.1369953718176@email.android.com>
	<031801ce5d9a$362f7670$a28e6350$@rr.com>
	<c1ddcb94204fdfcfd1534e193715184c@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUj-5yOE8k4OciA6w3HfAVQDKpUwd3srqzvQ_3Se4sOotw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Nicholas,
first off, the email that Richie forwarded hasn't got inline images,
so I'm missing out a bit on what Bernie wrote and therefore can't
comment on all of it.

However, if you have got a 4p HP that has no resonance, try the following:

1. get a noise source and a spectrum analyzer (Voxengo Span will be
great) and see what's happening in 4p HP mode. See if the peak can be
seen at all, expecially if you change the Q.

2. hook the noise input into the first stage, hook the specan to the
output of that first stage, make feedback go from the output of the
first stage to its input, and see if that works, and if it has
resonance. Calculate the frequency peak.

3. hook the noise input into the second stage, hook the specan to the
output of that second stage, make feedback go from the output of the
second stage to its input, see if that works and if it has resonance.
Calculate the frequency peak (make sure you haven't touched the cutoff
knob from when you measured it in step 2).


If you get resonance in 2 and 3 but not in 1 you want to check two things:

1. Is the resonance in both stages, at the same frequency setting,
happening at the same frequency? If not, trim your filters.

2. Is the resonance in-phase? Sometimes the filter will need resonance
out of phase because it goes into the negative input of a summing amp.
Or sometimes it's the other way around. If you have one filter stage
which requires negative resonance input, then the partial at the
output which corresponds to the resonant frequency of the filter
should be out of phase compared to the input. You can check that with
a bode plot. If you have two such filters and you use global feedback,
then what happens is the first stage puts the frequency out of phase,
and the second stage puts it in phase again, so in the end the global
feedback input gets it in phase, which might be incorrect for your
filter. So check that. One way to fix this would be to connect the Q
input to the positive input of IC41a (only when you're doing 4p HP).
Another way would be to use an SVF output for feedback such that the
feedback frequency gets negated an odd number of times (again, only
for 4p HP here). Another way is to use a unity inverter amp in the
feedback amp (4p HP again). All of those are kludges though. I have a
feeling that your SVF changes this in-phase/out-of-phase relationship
of the resonant frequency depending on the mode used. If you look into
that you might be able to work out exactly what you should be doing.
Just check which filter modes flip the resonant frequency. If you
don't have a way to make bode plots (and it's quite simple, there's
loads of software for creating that which I can't name ATM!) then you
can just take a sinewave, and record the output from the filter, and
record the dry sinewave. Tune the sinewave to the filter's resonant
frequency and mix both. You should either see a 2x increase in
amplitude, or it should zero out. If you see something else then the
sinewave is at the wrong frequency. If it nulls out then the filter
mode flips your resonant frequency, if it doesn't null out then your
filter mode does not flip your resonant frequency.

Cheers,
D.

On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 2:11 PM,  <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
> The plots that Bernie included in the Email you forwarded to me are called
> Root-locus plots.  Root locus is a technique used by control systems
> engineers to determine how the poles of a system move as feedback is applied
> around the system.  This is usually done to get a feel for how stable a
> system is when feedback is applied, and what the bandwidth will be.  It's a
> very common engineering tool, and it's useful for analysing analogue filters
> (and also digital filters!) for musical applications.  Specific types of
> filter like 2-pole SVF or Moog 4-pole cascade exhibit very recognisable
> root-locus shapes like circular arcs or X-shapes, and this is one of the
> reasons why all lowpass filters don't sound the same.
>
> So in order to answer your many questions about why certain configurations
> exhibit resonance and others don't, it's probably time to get out a control
> theory book and brush up on maths like Laplace functions, AC analysis and
> root-locus.  These techniques combined with a Pspice circuit simulation
> package, are very powerful for trying out different filter connections and
> gaining an understanding for why some combinations work, and others don't do
> what you had expected!
>
> -Richie,
>
>
>
> On 2013-05-31 02:00, Nicholas Keller wrote:
>>
>> Richie, Tom, Olivier, and anyone else....
>>
>>  I'm straying from my original question now, but if you're at all
>> interested in some other things I'm trying to squeeze out of this
>> filter, I'd be grateful for your, well, feedback.  I've been in touch
>> with Bernie Hutchins who seemed very interested but veered a bit
>> off-topic before losing touch (I'll paste my conversation with Bernie
>> below, you might understand it better than I), and more recently with
>> Carmine Bonanno, the designer and founder of
>> Octave-Plateau/Voyetra/Turtle Beach, but he really doesn't recall the
>> circuits off-hand and has no archive, though he said he was willing to
>> field some questions.  I just haven't had time to ask him.
>>
>>
>>
>> Being that it is two cascading SVFs, I'm trying to make it
>> multimode.  The Cat SRM was originally offered with a series of
>> optional factory mods.  You can see the list of mods here:
>>
>> http://niroke.blogspot.com/2013/03/octave-cat-srm-factory-modifications.html
>> [1]   Mine came with the 12/24dB mod and the HP/LP mod, however these
>> did not work properly.  I managed to figure out why the 4pole HP mode
>> didn't work.... because the mods didn't switch the mode from the first
>> section going into the second, so the 2pole LP always fed the second
>> stage which made the 4pole HP disappear.
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe I should have left it at that, but when I found out I could
>> also tap BP modes, and perhaps a Notch, I wanted to max it out.  I set
>> up a 2pole, 6-way rotary switch to select the mode feeding the second
>> stage and the tap point feeding the VCA. It looks like this:
>> http://i.imgur.com/gtyGktQ.png [2]
>>
>> The problem with this configuration is that the BP mode is not as
>> loud as the HP and LP modes, some modes are inverted and some aren't,
>> but mainly the 4pole HP mode has no resonance at all.  I'm thinking
>> this might have something to do with the fact that the feedback is
>> from the 4pole LP tap, but in HP4 the second stage is fed by HP2.  In
>> this case LP4 has little to no signal.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_WkSj14C-k [3] Here's a video showing
>> that the modes do work, though it's hard to tell a difference between
>> any of the 12 and 24dB modes, except that HP4 has no resonance. That
>> is at the very end and is only for a few seconds.  The Notch I tried
>> didn't have much effect, Bernie says that accurate components are
>> important to achieve this mode, and I have purchased 1% resistors and
>> 5% caps for the filter section but haven't installed them yet.
>>
>>   I invested in some Electronotes from Bernie, and a couple of his
>> "books", and noticed a few variations of SVFs and several filters
>> based on the SSM2040.  In some of the filters, the feedback was tapped
>> from the BP4 point.  Can anyone explain the benefit of this, or the
>> difference it would make.  Is this the necessary feedback source if
>> wanting to have modes other than LP?  Other versions of the Dual SVF
>> design uses a separate feedback path for each section.  I tried
>> several different ways of configuring my SRM board (feedback from LP2,
>> BP4, HP4(for HP4 mode only) and also sending the selected mode output
>> to the final inverting amp in the filter circuit rather than to the
>> VCA) but got poor results.  Either there was no resonance (presumably
>> because the point being tapped was inverted from the input, this
>> wouldn't work right? Although, Richie, in your reply you mention
>> global negative feedback) .... there was a strange cross-modulated
>> effect occurring like two FM'd oscillators slowing to a stop .... or
>> with self-oscillation occurring, adjusting the cutoff above or below
>> (I don't remember now) a certain point would cause the feedback to
>> disappear until Q and Fc were reset to medium levels.  I should have
>> better documented these results with video, etc.  I can if you think
>> it will be helpful.
>>
>> I'd really appreciate any help you guys can give me, suggestions of
>> things to try, etc.
>>
>> See below for my email to Bernie and Bernie's thoughts, though some
>> of it is repeated from above,
>>
>> nick
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Hello, Mr. Hutchins.
>>
>>  I recently received my box from you containing the MEH and PCC, as
>> well as the Electronotes you used to fill the box. Some of those pages
>> seem to have specific relevance to a project I am working on. I had
>> already done some experimenting before I ordered this literature from
>> you, and had seemed to be stumped. Now I see that there may be good
>> reason that my circuit is not completely functional. (ELECTRONOTES
>> VOLUME 10, NUMBER 85, PAGES 12-17:  "OBTAINING BANDPASS AND HIGHPASS
>> FUNCTIONS FROM A FOUR-POLE LOWPASS" AND "PRESENT DAY VCF DESIGN
>> OPTIONS",  JANUARY 1978)
>>
>> http://i.imgur.com/gtyGktQ.png [2]
>>
>> The link above is an edited version of the OCTAVE CAT SRM FILTER
>> board, with an added 2x6 rotary switch. I bought this keyboard with
>> factory modifications installed, however, they were not performed
>> properly. The modifications included a switch to select 2 or 4 pole
>> slope, and a switch to select HP or LP mode, so that's four mode in
>> all. The 4poleHP mode had almost no output. I began trying to work out
>> how the mod should have been done.
>>
>> Someone told me that the SRM's 2040-based filter was a state variable
>> design, and that 2 and 4pole versions of HP, BP, and LP were available
>> to be tapped. The locations on the image above are where he told me to
>> tap them, however, he drew me an image with a single pole, 6-way
>> rotary. This didn't make sense to me, I thought that the input to the
>> second 2pole filter stage needed to be switched to match the selected
>> 4pole output. This is why the factory 4poleHP mod didn't work, the
>> input was always LP. The image above shows how I wired my 2x6 rotary
>> as well as where I cut traces to return my switch outputs. I did
>> attempt to tap LP4 and return the selected filter mode to the junction
>> of SSM pin10/R175 and R183, after cutting the trace there of course.
>> But that didn't seem to work either.
>>
>> All the modes appear to work, except that THE 4POLEHP MODE HAS NO
>> RESONANCE. Also, when I attempted to create a Notch mode, it had
>> practically no effect. I noticed that you say the tolerance of
>> components are important to achieve a Notch mode, otherwise it becomes
>> "washed out" (page 15). I am planning to replace all the resistors
>> with 1%, and will attempt to replace the capacitors with more accurate
>> caps. I don't know that this will solve my problem with the HP4 Q. I
>> notice in some of the other state variable filters in Electronotes
>> (like inEN#84, PAGES 17-18  "READER'S CIRCUITS - VCF WITH SSM2040 BY
>> RICH RYAN), the feedback is drawn from the Bandpass output, rather
>> than the Lowpass output. The person who told me about the tap points
>> said that the feedback HAD TO come from the Lowpass output. This
>> confused me as well, because if my rotary is switching the input to
>> stage 2, when I select HP4 mode (therefore HP2 feeds stage 2), there
>> would be very little signal at the LP output to create resonance (much
>> like the non-working factory mod). I tried to use the BP4 output for a
>> feedback source, but that didn't provide the HP4 mode with resonance
>> either. The BP modes don't seem to have the same volume as the LP and
>> HP modes. In FIGURE 21 ON PAGE 17, and on PAGE 16, it is stated that a
>> dual state variable REQUIRES SEPARATE RESONANCE CONTROLS FOR EACH
>> SECTION.   Could this perhaps be part of my problem with HP4's Q?
>>
>> -----------------------
>>
>> Hi Nick -
>>
>> Good questions. Let me try to begin answering it with a few comments
>> and we can go from there. I don't understand your questions
>> completely, which reflects not on your ability to ask a question, or
>> so much on my inability to put my mind in gear, but the fact that the
>> matter is complex and better attacked in parts.
>>
>> First of all, the diagram you sent is correctly thought out. You are
>> correct that you need the two-pole six-position switch. Putting a
>> low-pass and high-pass in series would be a no-pass. Thus in the
>> correct version you sent you are suggesting a classic cascade approach
>> to fourth-order. The following comments may be useful.
>>
>> (1) For the moment, we assume that both state-variable sections have
>> the same frequency and the same Q. They are identical. Later you can
>> change these with additional possibilities (probably too many
>> possibilities).
>>
>> (2) I am not sure a fourth-order bandpass is worth the trouble. You
>> are usually using bandpass with high Q, and whether the "skirts" are
>> 6db or 12db probably matters little. If you were, however, to offset
>> the two filters slightly in frequency (which we are agreeing to
>> postpone), you could toy with the idea of a bandpass plateau rather
>> than a single peak.
>>
>> (3) With low-pass cascading to low-pass, you indeed get a
>> fourth-order low-pass, but NOT a Moog low-pass in general. You simply
>> get the product (square in this case) of the second-order low-pass.
>> You could set the Q's to different values, and get, for example,
>> Butterworth, but there is nothing especially useful about Butterworth.
>> So this cascade is likely sharper than Moog, two pairs of higher Q
>> poles instead of Moog's single pair (heading for the j-omega axis)
>> with a second pair moving away (on the corners of a square - see first
>> fig). The second pair of poles (facing away) result in the eventual 24
>> db roll-off. I suspect that the "mystic" values of the Moog is due to
>> this delayed roll-off. (It could also be imaginary!).
>>
>>  figure shown for gains of 0, 1/2, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, and
>> finally 4. Different shapes and colors just to separate poles.
>>
>> (4) You CAN achieve a classic Moog (as fig above) exactly with your
>> setup, if you implement the feedback loop. I am not sure if you say
>> you tried this and failed, or not? If you set the Q of the two
>> sections both to 1/2, you have four first-order low-pass sections in
>> series, and the feedback around it peaks and eventually oscillates at
>> a loop gain of 4. Of course, the polarity of the feedback needs to be
>> right.
>>
>> (5) So far, this is not new stuff. But out notion of using two-state
>> variables with Q=1/2 was just to get the classic Moog 4-pole back. I
>> never tried it any other way, but this is a good chance. It only took
>> me 15 minutes to write the code for the figure above, and then you
>> just change one number. Suppose the original Q's were Butterworth,
>> Q=l/sqrt(2). We get the next figure:
>>
>> Here there are two pair of poles starting at -1/sqrt(2) +/- j
>> /sqrt(2) when the gain is 0,(instead of four poles at -1). As gain
>> increases to 1/2, 1, 1/5, and then to 2, the poles move to the j-omega
>> axis at a frequency of 1. I didn't know this until I just now tried
>> it! Thanks. So, as one might expect, if we start with a higher Q, we
>> get oscillation at a lower gain (2 instead of 4). Note that
>>
>> 2 * (1/sqrt(2))^2 =1. Neat.
>>
>> So first thanks for prompting me to look at this. I may well add it
>> to some future report. In the mean time, I probably have told you some
>> things without answering your actual question(s), so please DO keep in
>> touch.
>>
>> Bernie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:42 PM
>> To: Tom Wiltshire; Nicholas Keller
>> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
>>
>> Yes, two cascaded 2nd-order state variable filters to give an overall
>> 4 pole response. Then with global feedback around it to achieve
>> resonance like in the classic moog ladder.
>>
>> Any interesting behavior might come about if the two state variable
>> filters are designed with different Q factors. But I think any
>> difference would probably become quite small once the resonance pot is
>> increased and global negative feedback is applied around the SVFs.
>>
>> -Richie,
>>
>> Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray
>>
>> Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting filter design, that. What is it exactly? Comparing it with
>>> the SSM2040 data sheet, it looks most like a couple of 2-pole SVFs stuck end
>>> to end, with feedback round the whole lot - a bit like the Jupiter 6. Or am
>>> I completely wrong?
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Tom
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> On 30 May 2013, at 22:27, Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Richie,
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>   It's the deafening squeal one.  The synth is an Octave Cat SRM with an
>>>> SSM2040 based filter.  Here is the schematic:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> http://i.imgur.com/R028I6l.jpg [4]
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> I see D30 and D31 in the SH-101 schematics, so I could try that.  Looks
>>>> easy enough.  I don't know what an equivalent diode is to that: 1s2473.
>>>> I'll look it up online if you don't have a suggestion.  The 101 has other
>>>> parts between the Q wiper and the diodes though, TR26 and TR27, etc.  I
>>>> don't know what those do....
>>>> http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%20Manual.pdf [5]
>>>> page 9
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> If you hadn't guessed, I'm rather uneducated in regards to electronics.
>>>> I've built a few things, modded a few things, but I still don't "get it".
>>
>>
>>>> I appreciate your help.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> nick
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>
>>>> From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk]
>>
>>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:39 PM
>>
>>
>>>> To: Nicholas Keller; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>
>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Do you want to compensate for the perceived drop in overall volume as
>>>> the resonance is increased, or compensate for the sudden increase in volume
>>>> at the instant where the filter commences self-oscillation?
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> The former is often compensated by feeding a fraction of the input
>>>> signal into the feedback path around the filter, before the resonance
>>>> control pot. Essentially this acts to increase the filter drive level as the
>>>> resonance control is increased and the pass-band gain of the filter
>>>> naturally decreases. You can compensate some fraction or all of the volume
>>>> drop depending on how much of the input signal you feed into the hot end of
>>>> the resonance pot in the feedback path. Some of the Roland Juno filters
>>>> implement this technique.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Another technique is to take some of the filter output from the hot end
>>>> of the resonance pot, plus an additional amount from the wiper of the
>>>> resonance pot. See tb-303 schematic for an example of this gain makeup
>>>> method.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Compensating for the potentially deafening squeal when the filter goes
>>>> into self-oscillation is different. The amplitude of sustained
>>>> self-oscillation is determined by the behaviour of non-linearities in the
>>>> filter. Eg, hard or soft clipping. If the self-oscillation level is much
>>>> louder than the oscillator signal you can try driving the filter with a
>>>> hotter signal, and/or introducing soft clipping into the filters feedback
>>>> path. Some of Rolands SH synths use back to back diodes in the feedback path
>>>> around the filter to limit the amplitude of self-oscillation.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> You didn't say what model your synth is, or the filter topology. So I
>>>> hope this info is some help to you.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> -Richie,
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> I have a synth that seriously jumps in volume when its filter
>>>>> oscillates.  I know that later generation chips had a way of compensating
>>>>> for this change, keeping the level constant regardless of the resonance
>>>>> setting.  Is there a circuit I could add to my synth that would perform this
>>>>> compensation?  I could use an audio limiter perhaps, but I'm concerned about
>>>>> clipping and squaring off the waveform.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how
>>>>> these chips did it, like the SSM2044 and the later CEMs, and if I could
>>>>> build a similar add-on circuit for my synth (and possibly other modules I
>>>>> have, like the Doepfer A-102).
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> I have an idea of adding an envelope follower (inverted) and VCA.
>>>>> Maybe that's how it was originally done.
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>>>> Nick
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>
>>
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>
>>
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy [6]
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>
>>
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>
>>
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy [6]
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>
>>
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>
>>
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy [6]
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> http://niroke.blogspot.com/2013/03/octave-cat-srm-factory-modifications.html
>> [2] http://i.imgur.com/gtyGktQ.png
>> [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_WkSj14C-k
>> [4] http://i.imgur.com/R028I6l.jpg
>> [5] http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%20Manual.pdf
>> [6] http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri May 31 16:57:11 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 15:57:11 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
In-Reply-To: <031801ce5d9a$362f7670$a28e6350$@rr.com>
References: <olvi9t2pcyy0h3gt8d0igu79.1369953718176@email.android.com>
	<031801ce5d9a$362f7670$a28e6350$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <5E0F1B49-D529-4567-A415-A63A8BD01D3E@electricdruid.net>

You should look at the Digisound SVF notes too - it looks to be exactly what you're trying to do, and with the SSM2040 too:

http://www.digisound80.co.uk/digisound/modules/80-7/construction/80-7_ETI.pdf

HTH,
Tom


On 31 May 2013, at 02:00, Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> Richie, Tom, Olivier, and anyone else....
>  
> I'm straying from my original question now, but if you're at all interested in some other things I'm trying to squeeze out of this filter, I'd be grateful for your, well, feedback.  I've been in touch with Bernie Hutchins who seemed very interested but veered a bit off-topic before losing touch (I'll paste my conversation with Bernie below, you might understand it better than I), and more recently with Carmine Bonanno, the designer and founder of Octave-Plateau/Voyetra/Turtle Beach, but he really doesn't recall the circuits off-hand and has no archive, though he said he was willing to field some questions.  I just haven't had time to ask him. 
>   
> Being that it is two cascading SVFs, I'm trying to make it multimode.  The Cat SRM was originally offered with a series of optional factory mods.  You can see the list of mods here:  http://niroke.blogspot.com/2013/03/octave-cat-srm-factory-modifications.html   Mine came with the 12/24dB mod and the HP/LP mod, however these did not work properly.  I managed to figure out why the 4pole HP mode didn't work.... because the mods didn't switch the mode from the first section going into the second, so the 2pole LP always fed the second stage which made the 4pole HP disappear. 
>   
> Maybe I should have left it at that, but when I found out I could also tap BP modes, and perhaps a Notch, I wanted to max it out.  I set up a 2pole, 6-way rotary switch to select the mode feeding the second stage and the tap point feeding the VCA. It looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/gtyGktQ.png
> The problem with this configuration is that the BP mode is not as loud as the HP and LP modes, some modes are inverted and some aren't, but mainly the 4pole HP mode has no resonance at all.  I'm thinking this might have something to do with the fact that the feedback is from the 4pole LP tap, but in HP4 the second stage is fed by HP2.  In this case LP4 has little to no signal.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_WkSj14C-k Here's a video showing that the modes do work, though it's hard to tell a difference between any of the 12 and 24dB modes, except that HP4 has no resonance. That is at the very end and is only for a few seconds.  The Notch I tried didn't have much effect, Bernie says that accurate components are important to achieve this mode, and I have purchased 1% resistors and 5% caps for the filter section but haven't installed them yet.
>  
>   I invested in some Electronotes from Bernie, and a couple of his "books", and noticed a few variations of SVFs and several filters based on the SSM2040.  In some of the filters, the feedback was tapped from the BP4 point.  Can anyone explain the benefit of this, or the difference it would make.  Is this the necessary feedback source if wanting to have modes other than LP?  Other versions of the Dual SVF design uses a separate feedback path for each section.  I tried several different ways of configuring my SRM board (feedback from LP2, BP4, HP4(for HP4 mode only) and also sending the selected mode output to the final inverting amp in the filter circuit rather than to the VCA) but got poor results.  Either there was no resonance (presumably because the point being tapped was inverted from the input, this wouldn't work right? Although, Richie, in your reply you mention global negative feedback) .... there was a strange cross-modulated effect occurring like two FM'd oscillators slowing to a stop .... or with self-oscillation occurring, adjusting the cutoff above or below (I don't remember now) a certain point would cause the feedback to disappear until Q and Fc were reset to medium levels.  I should have better documented these results with video, etc.  I can if you think it will be helpful.   
>  
> I'd really appreciate any help you guys can give me, suggestions of things to try, etc.
> See below for my email to Bernie and Bernie's thoughts, though some of it is repeated from above,
>  
> nick
>  
> ------------------------------
>  
> Hello, Mr. Hutchins.
>  
>   I recently received my box from you containing the MEH and PCC, as well as the Electronotes you used to fill the box.  Some of those pages seem to have specific relevance to a project I am working on.  I had already done some experimenting before I ordered this literature from you, and had seemed to be stumped.  Now I see that there may be good reason that my circuit is not completely functional.  (Electronotes Volume 10, number 85, pages 12-17:  "Obtaining Bandpass and Highpass Functions from a Four-pole Lowpass" and "Present Day VCF Design Options",  January 1978)
>  
> http://i.imgur.com/gtyGktQ.png
>  
> The link above is an edited version of the Octave Cat SRM filter board, with an added 2x6 rotary switch.   I bought this keyboard with factory modifications installed, however, they were not performed properly.  The modifications included a switch to select 2 or 4 pole slope, and a switch to select HP or LP mode, so that's four mode in all.  The 4poleHP mode had almost no output.  I began trying to work out how the mod should have been done.
>  
> Someone told me that the SRM's 2040-based filter was a state variable design, and that 2 and 4pole versions of HP, BP, and LP were available to be tapped.  The locations on the image above are where he told me to tap them, however, he drew me an image with a single pole, 6-way rotary.  This didn't make sense to me, I thought that the input to the second 2pole filter stage needed to be switched to match the selected 4pole output.  This is why the factory 4poleHP mod didn't work, the input was always LP.   The image above shows how I wired my 2x6 rotary as well as where I cut traces to return my switch outputs.  I did attempt to tap LP4 and return the selected filter mode to the junction of SSM pin10/R175 and R183, after cutting the trace there of course.  But that didn't seem to work either. 
>  
> All the modes appear to work, except that the 4poleHP mode has no resonance.  Also, when I attempted to create a Notch mode, it had practically no effect.   I noticed that you say the tolerance of components are important to achieve a Notch mode, otherwise it becomes "washed out" (page 15).  I am planning to replace all the resistors with 1%, and will attempt to replace the capacitors with more accurate caps.  I don't know that this will solve my problem with the HP4 Q.  I notice in some of the other state variable filters in Electronotes (like inEN#84, pages 17-18  "Reader's Circuits - VCF with SSM2040 by Rich Ryan), the feedback is drawn from the Bandpass output, rather than the Lowpass output.  The person who told me about the tap points said that the feedback HAD TO come from the Lowpass output.   This confused me as well, because if my rotary is switching the input to stage 2, when I select HP4 mode (therefore HP2 feeds stage 2), there would be very little signal at the LP output to create resonance (much like the non-working factory mod).   I tried to use the BP4 output for a feedback source, but that didn't provide the HP4 mode with resonance either.  The BP modes don't seem to have the same volume as the LP and HP modes.  In Figure 21 on page 17, and on page 16, it is stated that a dual state variable requires separate resonance controls for each section.   Could this perhaps be part of my problem with HP4's Q?
>  
> -----------------------
>  
> Hi Nick -
> 
> 
> Good questions.  Let me try to begin answering it with a few comments and we can go from there.  I don't understand your questions completely, which reflects not on your ability to ask a question, or so much on my inability to put my mind in gear, but the fact that the matter is complex and better attacked in parts. 
> 
> 
> First of all, the diagram you sent is correctly thought out.  You are correct that you need the two-pole six-position switch. Putting a low-pass and high-pass in series would be a no-pass.   Thus in the correct version you sent you are suggesting a classic cascade approach to fourth-order.  The following comments may be useful.
> 
> 
> (1)  For the moment, we assume that both state-variable sections have the same frequency and the same Q.   They are identical.  Later you can change these with additional possibilities (probably too many possibilities).  
> 
> 
> (2)  I am not sure a fourth-order bandpass is worth the trouble.  You are usually using bandpass with high Q, and whether the "skirts" are 6db or 12db probably matters little.  If you were, however, to offset the two filters slightly in frequency (which we are agreeing to postpone), you could toy with the idea of a bandpass plateau rather than a single peak.
> 
> 
> (3)  With low-pass cascading to low-pass, you indeed get a fourth-order low-pass, but NOT a Moog low-pass in general.   You simply get the product (square in this case) of the second-order low-pass.  You could set the Q's to different values, and get, for example, Butterworth, but there is nothing especially useful about Butterworth. So this cascade is likely sharper than Moog, two pairs of higher Q poles instead of Moog's single pair (heading for the j-omega axis) with a second pair moving away (on the corners of a square - see first fig).  The second pair of poles (facing away) result in the eventual 24 db roll-off.  I suspect that the "mystic" values of the Moog is due to this delayed roll-off.  (It could also be imaginary!).
> <image001.jpg>
> 
>       figure shown for gains of 0, 1/2, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, and finally 4.  Different shapes and colors just to separate poles.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (4)  You CAN achieve a classic Moog (as fig above) exactly with your setup, if you implement the feedback loop. I am not sure if you say you tried this and failed, or not?   If you set the Q of the two sections both to 1/2, you have four first-order low-pass sections in series, and the feedback around it peaks and eventually oscillates at a loop gain of 4.  Of course, the polarity of the feedback needs to be right.    
> 
> 
> 
> (5)  So far, this is not new stuff.   But out notion of using two-state variables with Q=1/2 was just to get the classic Moog 4-pole back.  I never tried it any other way, but this is a good chance.  It only took me 15 minutes to write the code for the figure above, and then you just change one number.  Suppose the original Q's were Butterworth, Q=l/sqrt(2).  We get the next figure:
> <image002.jpg>
> 
> Here there are two pair of poles starting at -1/sqrt(2) +/-  j /sqrt(2) when the gain is 0,(instead of four poles at -1).  As gain increases to 1/2, 1, 1/5, and then to 2, the poles move to the j-omega axis at a frequency of 1.  I didn't know this until I just now tried it!   Thanks.  So, as one might expect, if we start with a higher Q, we get oscillation at a lower gain (2 instead of 4).  Note that 
> 2 * (1/sqrt(2))^2  =1.   Neat.  
>  
> So first thanks for prompting me to look at this.   I may well add it to some future report.  In the mean time, I probably have told you some things without answering your actual question(s), so please DO keep in touch.
>  
>  
> Bernie
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk] 
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:42 PM
> To: Tom Wiltshire; Nicholas Keller
> Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
>  
> Yes, two cascaded 2nd-order state variable filters to give an overall 4 pole response. Then with global feedback around it to achieve resonance like in the classic moog ladder.
>  
> Any interesting behavior might come about if the two state variable filters are designed with different Q factors. But I think any difference would probably become quite small once the resonance pot is increased and global negative feedback is applied around the SVFs.
>  
> -Richie,
>  
> Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray
>  
> Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>  
> >Interesting filter design, that. What is it exactly? Comparing it with the SSM2040 data sheet, it looks most like a couple of 2-pole SVFs stuck end to end, with feedback round the whole lot - a bit like the Jupiter 6. Or am I completely wrong?
> > 
> >Tom
> > 
> >On 30 May 2013, at 22:27, Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>
> >> Richie,
> >>
> >>  It's the deafening squeal one.  The synth is an Octave Cat SRM with an SSM2040 based filter.  Here is the schematic:
> >>
> >> http://i.imgur.com/R028I6l.jpg
> >>
> >> I see D30 and D31 in the SH-101 schematics, so I could try that.  Looks easy enough.  I don't know what an equivalent diode is to that: 1s2473.  I'll look it up online if you don't have a suggestion.  The 101 has other parts between the Q wiper and the diodes though, TR26 and TR27, etc.  I don't know what those do....http://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Roland%20SH101%20Service%20Manual.pdf page 9
> >>
> >> If you hadn't guessed, I'm rather uneducated in regards to electronics.  I've built a few things, modded a few things, but I still don't "get it".
> >> I appreciate your help. 
> >>
> >> nick
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk]
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:39 PM
> >> To: Nicholas Keller; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Compensating output level for Q
> >>
> >> Do you want to compensate for the perceived drop in overall volume as the resonance is increased, or compensate for the sudden increase in volume at the instant where the filter commences self-oscillation?
> >>
> >> The former is often compensated by feeding a fraction of the input signal into the feedback path around the filter, before the resonance control pot. Essentially this acts to increase the filter drive level as the resonance control is increased and the pass-band gain of the filter naturally decreases. You can compensate some fraction or all of the volume drop depending on how much of the input signal you feed into the hot end of the resonance pot in the feedback path. Some of the Roland Juno filters implement this technique.
> >>
> >> Another technique is to take some of the filter output from the hot end of the resonance pot, plus an additional amount from the wiper of the resonance pot. See tb-303 schematic for an example of this gain makeup method.
> >>
> >> Compensating for the potentially deafening squeal when the filter goes into self-oscillation is different. The amplitude of sustained self-oscillation is determined by the behaviour of non-linearities in the filter. Eg, hard or soft clipping. If the self-oscillation level is much louder than the oscillator signal you can try driving the filter with a hotter signal, and/or introducing soft clipping into the filters feedback path. Some of Rolands SH synths use back to back diodes in the feedback path around the filter to limit the amplitude of self-oscillation.
> >>
> >> You didn't say what model your synth is, or the filter topology. So I hope this info is some help to you.
> >>
> >> -Richie,
> >>
> >> Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray
> >>
> >> Nicholas Keller <niroke at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have a synth that seriously jumps in volume when its filter oscillates.  I know that later generation chips had a way of compensating for this change, keeping the level constant regardless of the resonance setting.  Is there a circuit I could add to my synth that would perform this compensation?  I could use an audio limiter perhaps, but I'm concerned about clipping and squaring off the waveform.  I'm wondering if anyone knows how these chips did it, like the SSM2044 and the later CEMs, and if I could build a similar add-on circuit for my synth (and possibly other modules I have, like the Doepfer A-102).  
> >>>
> >>> I have an idea of adding an envelope follower (inverted) and VCA.  Maybe that's how it was originally done. 
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Nick
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > 
> >_______________________________________________
> >Synth-diy mailing list
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