From ijfritz at comcast.net  Tue Oct  1 02:47:04 2013
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 18:47:04 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Carbon resistive ink?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1309240920410.25233@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu
 >
References: <08823F90-EB8D-45FD-ADF4-24D1E112602D@me.com>
	<16284304.52211379544966946.JavaMail.www@wwinf3718>
	<CACDGQT9+yWJFcJH4cthNYV3z7F2rgXHu_eDZ=6n4ZLsoo0pAMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<73f0a75c23926.523ae120@ziggo.nl> <7380f27427a11.523ae15d@ziggo.nl>
	<72a0cef7203eb.523ae199@ziggo.nl> <7180df0d27b27.523ae1d6@ziggo.nl>
	<71808c7e22596.523afe2e@ziggo.nl>
	<CACDGQT9HFANsoOhy7WuUgDHD6h7bwqreyJ+bA6PjDVGy_MZ9KQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1380038133.9972.YahooMailNeo@web28705.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1309240920410.25233@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20130930184507.04f4c288@mail.comcast.net>

At 10:21 AM 9/24/2013, David Griffith wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Sep 2013, Karl Ekdahl wrote:
>
>>Hey does anyone know where you can get small amounts of carbon-based or 
>>other resistive-conductive ink for screen printing? I've only found 
>>sources where you have to by 1 ton which seems a little excessive for 
>>just playing around... :)
>
>Would india ink work?  It's basically lampblack with water, alcohol, and 
>shellac.

No, india ink does not work.  You need to use graphite -- charcoal or 
lampblack do not work.

Ian 



From eric at ericframpton.com  Wed Oct  2 02:30:29 2013
From: eric at ericframpton.com (Eric Frampton)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 20:30:29 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Poly-800 strap pegs?
Message-ID: <6E9B18C8-607A-4D6B-AEF4-316AB14AA4DE@ericframpton.com>

Hi all -

I've just acquired a little Poly-800, and it's intact except for the strap pegs on each end. Would any of you happen to have a set, perhaps from a junked unit, that I could trade or buy from you?

Thanks,
Eric



From antoniotuzzi at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 11:46:14 2013
From: antoniotuzzi at gmail.com (Antonio Tuzzi)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 11:46:14 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] WTB: AY30214 top octave divider
Message-ID: <3577F7C9-1304-4ECE-82D8-C34C32EB4EE6@gmail.com>

WTB: AY30214 top octave divider

as used in the roland rs505

thanks
Antonio


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Thu Oct  3 13:51:08 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 12:51:08 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
Message-ID: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>

Has anyone in the UK got an IR3R01 (or two) for sale?

Thanks,
Jack 		 	   		  

From info at labofsound.com  Thu Oct  3 14:11:43 2013
From: info at labofsound.com (The Laboratory of Sound)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:11:43 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>

Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC (ADSR) 
JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and 
handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)

Cheers,

Jack

-- 
The Laboratory of Sound
Duivenvoordestraat 28
2341 JE Oegstgeest
The Netherlands

T +31 71 517 0230

www.labofsound.com



On 2013-10-03 13:51, Jack Jackson wrote:
> Has anyone in the UK got an IR3R01 (or two) for sale?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Thu Oct  3 14:32:38 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:32:38 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W6471A05945A8A1DEDF27897170@phx.gbl>

Thanks! I emailed them. I tried contacting Roland UK and they said they don't stock the part as it's been discontinued for the past 24 years.
Apparently they're completely separate from Roland Europe though so let's see.

How long ago did you hear they were still available? Did you purchase any?

Thanks,
Jack

> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:11:43 +0200
> From: info at labofsound.com
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
> 
> Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC (ADSR) 
> JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and 
> handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jack
> 
> -- 
> The Laboratory of Sound
> Duivenvoordestraat 28
> 2341 JE Oegstgeest
> The Netherlands
> 
> T +31 71 517 0230
> 
> www.labofsound.com
> 
> 
> 
> On 2013-10-03 13:51, Jack Jackson wrote:
>> Has anyone in the UK got an IR3R01 (or two) for sale?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jack
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From info at labofsound.com  Thu Oct  3 18:11:40 2013
From: info at labofsound.com (The Laboratory of Sound)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 18:11:40 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W6471A05945A8A1DEDF27897170@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<DUB123-W6471A05945A8A1DEDF27897170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <dd4027ba0d17efaa92a31c23af696b19@webmail.byte.nl>

About 6 weeks ago, I purchased 6 of them. They are not the fastest 
e-mail responders out there. If in a hurry, you may want to give them a 
call and ask for the service/parts department. Very nice people to talk 
to.

Good luck,

Jack




On 2013-10-03 14:32, Jack Jackson wrote:
> Thanks! I emailed them. I tried contacting Roland UK and they said
> they don't stock the part as it's been discontinued for the past 24
> years.
> Apparently they're completely separate from Roland Europe though so 
> let's see.
> 
> How long ago did you hear they were still available? Did you purchase 
> any?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> 
>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:11:43 +0200
>> From: info at labofsound.com
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>> 
>> Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC (ADSR)
>> JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and
>> handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> --
>> The Laboratory of Sound
>> Duivenvoordestraat 28
>> 2341 JE Oegstgeest
>> The Netherlands
>> 
>> T +31 71 517 0230
>> 
>> www.labofsound.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2013-10-03 13:51, Jack Jackson wrote:
>>> Has anyone in the UK got an IR3R01 (or two) for sale?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jack
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

-- 
The Laboratory of Sound
Duivenvoordestraat 28
2341 JE Oegstgeest
The Netherlands

T +31 71 517 0230

www.labofsound.com


From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Thu Oct  3 21:14:18 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 13:14:18 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
Message-ID: <524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>

On 10/3/2013 6:11 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
> Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC (ADSR) 
> JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and 
> handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jack
>
Jack will you please tell the list WHY you are keeping 14 out of the 20 
sheets (at least) that I sent while charging back the entire 267.00 on 
me.  You won't talk to me.  Tell the list why you are stealing all that 
money from me please.

-- 
Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
articles that could help make your eternity!



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Thu Oct  3 22:00:48 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 21:00:48 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>

Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:14:18 -0600
> From: sounddoctorin at imt.net
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>
> On 10/3/2013 6:11 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
>> Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC (ADSR)
>> JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and
>> handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jack
>>
> Jack will you please tell the list WHY you are keeping 14 out of the 20
> sheets (at least) that I sent while charging back the entire 267.00 on
> me. You won't talk to me. Tell the list why you are stealing all that
> money from me please.
>
> --
> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
> articles that could help make your eternity!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  3 22:58:41 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 16:58:41 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY404-EAS125AB1DD90AD706C2279E6FC8170@phx.gbl>

hmmmm

whats this all about ?? you guys need to figure this out

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 3, 2013, at 4:02 PM, "Jack Jackson" <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:14:18 -0600
>> From: sounddoctorin at imt.net
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>> 
>>> On 10/3/2013 6:11 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
>>> Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC (ADSR)
>>> JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and
>>> handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Jack
>> Jack will you please tell the list WHY you are keeping 14 out of the 20
>> sheets (at least) that I sent while charging back the entire 267.00 on
>> me. You won't talk to me. Tell the list why you are stealing all that
>> money from me please.
>> 
>> --
>> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
>> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
>> articles that could help make your eternity!
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy                         
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tom at electricdruid.net  Thu Oct  3 23:00:43 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:00:43 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re:  [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>

He's talking about this, Jack:

http://www.sounddoctorin.com/synthtec/deadbeat.htm

Although I recognise there's a certain public service in bringing bad businesses or customers to the attention of the community by voicing problems here, it seems to me that need has already been fulfilled, and in my view you two need to keep your dispute off the list. I don't know how other people feel about it. Perhaps others would like to voice a view?

Thanks,
Tom


On 3 Oct 2013, at 21:00, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:14:18 -0600
>> From: sounddoctorin at imt.net
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>> 
>> On 10/3/2013 6:11 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
>>> Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC (ADSR)
>>> JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and
>>> handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Jack
>>> 
>> Jack will you please tell the list WHY you are keeping 14 out of the 20
>> sheets (at least) that I sent while charging back the entire 267.00 on
>> me. You won't talk to me. Tell the list why you are stealing all that
>> money from me please.
>> 
>> --
>> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
>> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
>> articles that could help make your eternity!
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From synthesizerdiy at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 23:13:01 2013
From: synthesizerdiy at gmail.com (synth)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 16:13:01 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re:  [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <B74ACFEF-D4EC-4E25-8E7F-A7C921B9AE98@gmail.com>

thank link tries to auto download a file named, valenscam1.flv

watch out clicking it.





On Oct 3, 2013, at 4:00 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:

> He's talking about this, Jack:
>
> http://www.sounddoctorin.com/synthtec/deadbeat.htm
>
> Although I recognise there's a certain public service in bringing  
> bad businesses or customers to the attention of the community by  
> voicing problems here, it seems to me that need has already been  
> fulfilled, and in my view you two need to keep your dispute off the  
> list. I don't know how other people feel about it. Perhaps others  
> would like to voice a view?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>
> On 3 Oct 2013, at 21:00, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>  
> wrote:
>
>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:14:18 -0600
>>> From: sounddoctorin at imt.net
>>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>
>>> On 10/3/2013 6:11 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
>>>> Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC  
>>>> (ADSR)
>>>> JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and
>>>> handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Jack
>>>>
>>> Jack will you please tell the list WHY you are keeping 14 out of  
>>> the 20
>>> sheets (at least) that I sent while charging back the entire  
>>> 267.00 on
>>> me. You won't talk to me. Tell the list why you are stealing all  
>>> that
>>> money from me please.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
>>> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
>>> articles that could help make your eternity!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From nate at paperproductsmusic.com  Thu Oct  3 23:37:03 2013
From: nate at paperproductsmusic.com (Nathanael King)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:37:03 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Resistance Substitution box for free / small trade
Message-ID: <CAOysfL7CsEStmYuXm6Xq0FpQ8+kPsVichFk6OsMLS5TB1_1-Sg@mail.gmail.com>

(apologize if duplicate, I always fight with plain text / html)

I've moved this thing around the house too many times... If you want
it, it's yours for the cost of shipping and some future good will or a
small trade like a pcb or something. Useful while breadboarding (I
guess).

http://www.paperproductsmusic.com/images/rsubbox.zip

thanks,

--
Nate King
Paper Products Music


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Thu Oct  3 23:40:54 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:40:54 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>

Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm just a brother wanting some envelope gens.

Thanks,
Jack Damery
________________________________
> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200 
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK 
> From: cheater00 at gmail.com 
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk 
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl; sounddoctorin at imt.net 
> 
> 
> Hello Jack, 
> 
> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson" 
> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>> wrote: 
>> 
>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you. 
> 
> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time 
> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The 
> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this 
> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth 
> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly. 
> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way. 		 	   		  

From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 23:53:18 2013
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 16:53:18 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CACodTR-1CF4qhNpMm2fzGqW65nwDen-c+iFQYPQd7MZ2=hP27g@mail.gmail.com>

Bob could have done a better job with clarity, his beef is with
Laboratory of Sound who is also a Jack.  He was jumping the same
person in one of my recent threads too.  Personally, I think being
obnoxious on list doesn't help your own level of respect regardless of
how justified the dispute is (and I don't question that at all).

On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm just a brother wanting some envelope gens.
>
> Thanks,
> Jack Damery
> ________________________________
>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com
>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl; sounddoctorin at imt.net
>>
>>
>> Hello Jack,
>>
>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson"
>> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>>
>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time
>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The
>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this
>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth
>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly.
>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 23:56:02 2013
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 16:56:02 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>

I think it's obnoxious.  Popping up in a couple of threads has
highlighted the allegations against Laboratory of Sound. I don't have
any reason to doubt Bob's version of events, but I don't think it's
remotely relevant, and as we saw here, it starts casting aspersions on
innocent parties.

On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> He's talking about this, Jack:
>
> http://www.sounddoctorin.com/synthtec/deadbeat.htm
>
> Although I recognise there's a certain public service in bringing bad businesses or customers to the attention of the community by voicing problems here, it seems to me that need has already been fulfilled, and in my view you two need to keep your dispute off the list. I don't know how other people feel about it. Perhaps others would like to voice a view?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>
> On 3 Oct 2013, at 21:00, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:14:18 -0600
>>> From: sounddoctorin at imt.net
>>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>
>>> On 10/3/2013 6:11 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
>>>> Roland Europe still has some in stock (part number 15229807 IC (ADSR)
>>>> JUNO-60) and sells them for 12.53 euro a piece plus shipping and
>>>> handling. They are located in Belgium, that is almost UK ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Jack
>>>>
>>> Jack will you please tell the list WHY you are keeping 14 out of the 20
>>> sheets (at least) that I sent while charging back the entire 267.00 on
>>> me. You won't talk to me. Tell the list why you are stealing all that
>>> money from me please.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
>>> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
>>> articles that could help make your eternity!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 00:23:19 2013
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:23:19 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Are you really attacking me for having a different opinion than you?

I don't understand how it is you suddenly are giving me the "if you're
not with us, you're with Laboratory of Sound" attack treatment.


Message is received: Laboratory of Sound has been a bad actor in a
transaction with Bob, a respected long time contributor and someone
who has an important and useful innovation for this audience.

If this were someone discussing a commercial transaction with LoS,
that would totally be relevant.  But attacking him continuously and
indiscriminately just raises the noise floor.

It's not indifferent to say act like an adult and don't try to pick a
fight in every thread.



On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 5:07 PM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 4 Oct 2013 00:00, "Pete Hartman" <pete.hartman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think it's obnoxious.  Popping up in a couple of threads has
>> highlighted the allegations against Laboratory of Sound. I don't have
>> any reason to doubt Bob's version of events, but I don't think it's
>> remotely relevant, and as we saw here, it starts casting aspersions on
>> innocent parties.
>
> We can just forget what's important and focus on Bob's inability to use the
> computer, or we can show some solidarity. I don't know why supporting the
> right side and shunning scammers hurting our community is "not remotely
> relevant" but maybe you can tell me. Since when is such extreme indifference
> something to be proud of?
>
> D.


From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  4 00:36:10 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 18:36:10 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>

i agree that scammers hurt our community

but maybe we should have a thread for that

 (a bad trader thread )


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 3, 2013, at 6:24 PM, "Pete Hartman" <pete.hartman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Are you really attacking me for having a different opinion than you?
> 
> I don't understand how it is you suddenly are giving me the "if you're
> not with us, you're with Laboratory of Sound" attack treatment.
> 
> 
> Message is received: Laboratory of Sound has been a bad actor in a
> transaction with Bob, a respected long time contributor and someone
> who has an important and useful innovation for this audience.
> 
> If this were someone discussing a commercial transaction with LoS,
> that would totally be relevant.  But attacking him continuously and
> indiscriminately just raises the noise floor.
> 
> It's not indifferent to say act like an adult and don't try to pick a
> fight in every thread.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 5:07 PM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 4 Oct 2013 00:00, "Pete Hartman" <pete.hartman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think it's obnoxious.  Popping up in a couple of threads has
>>> highlighted the allegations against Laboratory of Sound. I don't have
>>> any reason to doubt Bob's version of events, but I don't think it's
>>> remotely relevant, and as we saw here, it starts casting aspersions on
>>> innocent parties.
>> 
>> We can just forget what's important and focus on Bob's inability to use the
>> computer, or we can show some solidarity. I don't know why supporting the
>> right side and shunning scammers hurting our community is "not remotely
>> relevant" but maybe you can tell me. Since when is such extreme indifference
>> something to be proud of?
>> 
>> D.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From metadata at gmx.com  Fri Oct  4 07:16:33 2013
From: metadata at gmx.com (neil harper)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 01:16:33 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Envelope to Gate/Trigger circuit?
Message-ID: <1380863793.1779.11.camel@nwwtlaptop>

hey guys and gals,
i'm just wondering if there already exists a circuit that can output a
gate and trigger from an existing envelope?

the gate part could be a comparator, going high with an input >0V. that
seems pretty straight forward. the trigger i suppose would go high when
a falling voltage starts rising again.. seems like an easy problem for a
microcontroller, but i have no clue how that would be done analog. any
ideas?


-- 
//neil harper
every wave is new until it breaks



From eidorian at aladan.net  Fri Oct  4 07:24:53 2013
From: eidorian at aladan.net (eidorian at aladan.net)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 22:24:53 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] =?utf-8?q?Envelope_to_Gate/Trigger_circuit=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <1380863793.1779.11.camel@nwwtlaptop>
References: <1380863793.1779.11.camel@nwwtlaptop>
Message-ID: <9f97d886c89c72ff71330259789285da@aladan.net>

On 2013-10-03 22:16, neil harper wrote:
> hey guys and gals,
> i'm just wondering if there already exists a circuit that can output 
> a
> gate and trigger from an existing envelope?
>
> the gate part could be a comparator, going high with an input >0V. 
> that
> seems pretty straight forward. the trigger i suppose would go high 
> when
> a falling voltage starts rising again.. seems like an easy problem 
> for a
> microcontroller, but i have no clue how that would be done analog. 
> any
> ideas?

As often is the case, Ken's your man.  Assuming a straightforward ADSR 
or AR envelope:

Gate (use the "rising" output) - 
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs62_sd.html
Trigger (use the "rising" output from the Gate as its input) - 
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html

Cheers,
A.


From eric at ericframpton.com  Fri Oct  4 08:38:10 2013
From: eric at ericframpton.com (Eric Frampton)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 02:38:10 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Prophet 10 op-amp swaps?
In-Reply-To: <51FF726B.5000009@btinternet.com>
References: <20130731114142.12367AD4@m0005309.ppops.net>
	<CA+9GZUgkK33hJLJPYnZ9szxvDE1+4H8KsHhwaTpLtOfNqC7LxA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcf3d7c0903d71153519f6b285b68027.squirrel@legacy-webmail.sonic.net>
	<5BCF46A1-A4BE-400D-AE71-847A2D091E64@ericframpton.com>
	<448e01e6-7188-4613-8bae-ef13d999b15a@email.android.com>
	<3418EE09-4BA0-46FC-8994-81448B2DA819@ericframpton.com>
	<56290819-b039-4c28-a4ec-a6ab1dea1c77@email.android.com>
	<3c630a66-ad8b-4dbe-a653-f0b5871d7c70@email.android.com>
	<51FA15C2.5020704@btinternet.com>
	<7FBC9FE1-6E04-4A09-8802-B20BC62BB521@electricdruid.net>
	<39AE76DB-5299-44D7-96D7-C94182DD434D@ericframpton.com>
	<51FF726B.5000009@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <11473D5B-A00F-43E5-B7D7-952C14CDC166@ericframpton.com>

Hi all -

After way too long I bought a tube of OPA124's, and tonight I finally found the time to A/B/C those with the original LF356's and the LM49710's.

Now, to further show my ignorant ass in front of a bunch of brilliant EE's, I thought I'd post one last note in this thread.

So,

Although I understand the argument that the LM49710's have such a stupidly wide bandwidth that they could go unstable, I've yet to see or hear that actually happen in all my banging around on the P-10. That said, I certainly don't have the test equipment to formally measure into the GHz range where strange stuff like that might occur. All I know is, with either the 49710's or the OPA134's dropped in there, the veil totally comes off of that machine. To me, it finally becomes inspiring to play - which is all I was after when I began this damned exercise anyway!

In the final 6 output op-amps (the ones directly driving the balanced upper/lower/mono outputs on the back of the unit), I can't see or hear any PRACTICAL difference between the 134's and the 49710's, though I grant that there's likely an electronic one that I'm oblivious to. The very small (100mV P-P) waveform I was describing before is, as best I can figure, a noisy but periodic wave from the switching power supply on my halogen bench lights coupled (perhaps) with the motor noise from my dehumidifier.

I only learned that after discovering what a proper op-amp oscillation looked like tonight:

Dropping an OPA134 in the output of either EQ section presented a crystal-clear sine wave up in the 2MHz range (a 2uS period is 2MHz, right? I failed math!) at, like, a 10x greater amplitude as the noisy wave described above. Whether the chip was socketed or not made no difference, I tried both. When going back to the 49710 with a cap strapped across the top (now that I know what a proper oscillation looks like) I can say that that oscillation completely disappeared. I'm sure the same thing would happen with a cap across a '134, but (frankly) the other works, so until something blows up I'm going with it.

Thanks again, everybody, for all your help. I'm going to go back to making music now.

Eric



From info at labofsound.com  Fri Oct  4 09:30:19 2013
From: info at labofsound.com (The Laboratory of Sound)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 09:30:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>

I am new to the synth-diy community and am hoping to find a place where 
synth enthusiasts like myself share their passion and knowledge. I want 
to try and make useful contributions and hope that you will welcome me 
for that. As to the allegations that pop up after each message I post, 
there is not much I can do about it except for adhering to the adage 
"don't feed the monster".

Cheers,

Jack

-- 
The Laboratory of Sound
Duivenvoordestraat 28
2341 JE Oegstgeest
The Netherlands

T +31 71 517 0230

www.labofsound.com




On 2013-10-04 00:36, Dan Snazelle wrote:
> i agree that scammers hurt our community
> 
> but maybe we should have a thread for that
> 
>  (a bad trader thread )
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 3, 2013, at 6:24 PM, "Pete Hartman" <pete.hartman at gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Are you really attacking me for having a different opinion than you?
>> 
>> I don't understand how it is you suddenly are giving me the "if 
>> you're
>> not with us, you're with Laboratory of Sound" attack treatment.
>> 
>> 
>> Message is received: Laboratory of Sound has been a bad actor in a
>> transaction with Bob, a respected long time contributor and someone
>> who has an important and useful innovation for this audience.
>> 
>> If this were someone discussing a commercial transaction with LoS,
>> that would totally be relevant.  But attacking him continuously and
>> indiscriminately just raises the noise floor.
>> 
>> It's not indifferent to say act like an adult and don't try to pick a
>> fight in every thread.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 5:07 PM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 4 Oct 2013 00:00, "Pete Hartman" <pete.hartman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I think it's obnoxious.  Popping up in a couple of threads has
>>>> highlighted the allegations against Laboratory of Sound. I don't 
>>>> have
>>>> any reason to doubt Bob's version of events, but I don't think it's
>>>> remotely relevant, and as we saw here, it starts casting aspersions 
>>>> on
>>>> innocent parties.
>>> 
>>> We can just forget what's important and focus on Bob's inability to 
>>> use the
>>> computer, or we can show some solidarity. I don't know why 
>>> supporting the
>>> right side and shunning scammers hurting our community is "not 
>>> remotely
>>> relevant" but maybe you can tell me. Since when is such extreme 
>>> indifference
>>> something to be proud of?
>>> 
>>> D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Oct  4 10:28:22 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:28:22 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <1380846162.17026.YahooMailNeo@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>,
	<1380846162.17026.YahooMailNeo@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W41B72493EBEDF7AFC5039C97100@phx.gbl>

Hi Doug,?

Thanks, I did get a quote from you. I'm just trying to see if I can source some within the UK
(or at least the EU) as I will have pay half the price again to?
UK customs when it passes through. Making the overall cost about ?80 for one chip.

It would be nice if they would exempt diy components from import duty as there is
a lot of very interesting stuff available in the US.


________________________________
> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:22:42 -0700 
> From: dougt55 at yahoo.com 
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK 
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk; cheater00 at gmail.com; 
> synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> 
> I have verified/tested IR3R01s in stock. I think Bob owes you an 
> apology by the way... 
> 
> Doug 
> synthparts.com 
> 
> 
> ________________________________ 
> From: Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> 
> To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>; synth-diy 
> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> 
> Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 2:40 PM 
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK 
> 
> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm 
> just a brother wanting some envelope gens. 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Jack Damery 
> ________________________________ 
>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200 
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK 
>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com<mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com> 
>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> 
>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>; 
> sounddoctorin at imt.net<mailto:sounddoctorin at imt.net> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hello Jack, 
>> 
>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson" 
>> 
> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk><mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>>> 
> wrote: 
>>> 
>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you. 
>> 
>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time 
>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The 
>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this 
>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth 
>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly. 
>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way. 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Synth-diy mailing list 
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> 
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
> 
> 		 	   		  

From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Fri Oct  4 10:37:25 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 02:37:25 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re:  [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <B74ACFEF-D4EC-4E25-8E7F-A7C921B9AE98@gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<B74ACFEF-D4EC-4E25-8E7F-A7C921B9AE98@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <524E7E45.30606@imt.net>

On 10/3/2013 3:13 PM, synth wrote:
> thank link tries to auto download a file named, valenscam1.flv
>
> watch out clicking it.
synth...... a .flv is a VIDEO FILE FORMAT used by youtube etc. It's just 
a video.  Run a virus check on it.  It's just video data. der


From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Fri Oct  4 10:38:44 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 02:38:44 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR-1CF4qhNpMm2fzGqW65nwDen-c+iFQYPQd7MZ2=hP27g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>
	<CACodTR-1CF4qhNpMm2fzGqW65nwDen-c+iFQYPQd7MZ2=hP27g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <524E7E94.6030705@imt.net>

On 10/3/2013 3:53 PM, Pete Hartman wrote:
> Bob could have done a better job with clarity, his beef is with
> Laboratory of Sound who is also a Jack.  He was jumping the same
> person in one of my recent threads too.  Personally, I think being
> obnoxious on list doesn't help your own level of respect regardless of
> how justified the dispute is (and I don't question that at all).
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm just a brother wanting some envelope gens.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jack Damery
>> ________________________________
>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com
>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
>>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl; sounddoctorin at imt.net
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Jack,
>>>
>>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson"
>>> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time
>>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The
>>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this
>>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth
>>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly.
>>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
I've been stolen from.  I'd like my money for the product Jack aka 
'laboratory of sound ' stole from me

-- 
Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
articles that could help make your eternity!



From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Fri Oct  4 10:45:58 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 02:45:58 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
	<d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
Message-ID: <524E8046.2010206@imt.net>

On 10/4/2013 1:30 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
> I am new to the synth-diy community and am hoping to find a place 
> where synth enthusiasts like myself share their passion and knowledge. 
> I want to try and make useful contributions and hope that you will 
> welcome me for that. As to the allegations that pop up after each 
> message I post, there is not much I can do about it except for 
> adhering to the adage "don't feed the monster".
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jack
>
Jack... what monster?  There's an elephant in the room. Not a monster.  
You stole 267.00 of product from me plus cost me a bunch of video 
production time to document it as you were smearing my name in a .nl 
synth forum. Now everyone can see precisely what was said between us.  
It's all documented.  Who is 'synth'?  Is that you too?  Trying to make 
people think the video is a virus?

Regardless ... sorry guys I don't want this to blow up unnecessarily.  
Everyone knows what this guy did I think by now. The point is made.  
Jack already had some repairs redirected away from him because he tried 
to steal and run.  It's going to cost him thousands of dollars a year 
obviously but he just doesn't seem to be a very smart thief.  Nuf said.  
I'll drop the issue here so it doesn't hog bandwidth.

-- 
Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
articles that could help make your eternity!



From roglok at hyperground.de  Fri Oct  4 10:51:05 2013
From: roglok at hyperground.de (roglok)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:51:05 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <524E7E94.6030705@imt.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>
	<CACodTR-1CF4qhNpMm2fzGqW65nwDen-c+iFQYPQd7MZ2=hP27g@mail.gmail.com>
	<524E7E94.6030705@imt.net>
Message-ID: <A0A06046-94EE-4896-83CB-E6540EB913AB@hyperground.de>

Bob, 

sorry to hear that, but this mailing list is not a police station.
The thread is about someone asking for help with sourcing some ICs...

On 04.10.2013, at 10:38, Bob Weigel wrote:

> On 10/3/2013 3:53 PM, Pete Hartman wrote:
>> Bob could have done a better job with clarity, his beef is with
>> Laboratory of Sound who is also a Jack.  He was jumping the same
>> person in one of my recent threads too.  Personally, I think being
>> obnoxious on list doesn't help your own level of respect regardless of
>> how justified the dispute is (and I don't question that at all).
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm just a brother wanting some envelope gens.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jack Damery
>>> ________________________________
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200
>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com
>>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
>>>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl; sounddoctorin at imt.net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Jack,
>>>> 
>>>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson"
>>>> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>>>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time
>>>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The
>>>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this
>>>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth
>>>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly.
>>>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> 
> I've been stolen from.  I'd like my money for the product Jack aka 'laboratory of sound ' stole from me
> 
> -- 
> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
> articles that could help make your eternity!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Oct  4 10:59:08 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:59:08 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <A0A06046-94EE-4896-83CB-E6540EB913AB@hyperground.de>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>,
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>,
	<CACodTR-1CF4qhNpMm2fzGqW65nwDen-c+iFQYPQd7MZ2=hP27g@mail.gmail.com>,
	<524E7E94.6030705@imt.net>,
	<A0A06046-94EE-4896-83CB-E6540EB913AB@hyperground.de>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W24A5A7350953916E8F4F8497100@phx.gbl>

Could we get this issue moved to MuffWiggler and mediated by a third party please?
I'm sure there are misunderstandings on both sides and both parties would feel better if it could be resolved gracefully.

Thanks,
Jack
----------------------------------------
> From: roglok at hyperground.de
> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:51:05 +0200
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>
> Bob,
>
> sorry to hear that, but this mailing list is not a police station.
> The thread is about someone asking for help with sourcing some ICs...
>
> On 04.10.2013, at 10:38, Bob Weigel wrote:
>
>> On 10/3/2013 3:53 PM, Pete Hartman wrote:
>>> Bob could have done a better job with clarity, his beef is with
>>> Laboratory of Sound who is also a Jack. He was jumping the same
>>> person in one of my recent threads too. Personally, I think being
>>> obnoxious on list doesn't help your own level of respect regardless of
>>> how justified the dispute is (and I don't question that at all).
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm just a brother wanting some envelope gens.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jack Damery
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200
>>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com
>>>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
>>>>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl; sounddoctorin at imt.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Jack,
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson"
>>>>> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>>>>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time
>>>>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The
>>>>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this
>>>>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth
>>>>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly.
>>>>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>>
>> I've been stolen from. I'd like my money for the product Jack aka 'laboratory of sound ' stole from me
>>
>> --
>> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
>> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
>> articles that could help make your eternity!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From synthesizerdiy at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 11:01:34 2013
From: synthesizerdiy at gmail.com (synth)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 04:01:34 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
	<d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
Message-ID: <8ABAB940-9BE4-4EC4-A1AE-FC93669224B9@gmail.com>

I am not who ever you are fighting with.  I only pointed out that the  
link put up starts an auto download.  Normally sites do not do this,  
and I feel a download warning should be put up with a blind link.  Not  
too many people want to click a blind link and a 100+ Meg file start  
to download.



On Oct 4, 2013, at 3:45 AM, Bob Weigel wrote:

> On 10/4/2013 1:30 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
>> I am new to the synth-diy community and am hoping to find a place  
>> where synth enthusiasts like myself share their passion and  
>> knowledge. I want to try and make useful contributions and hope  
>> that you will welcome me for that. As to the allegations that pop  
>> up after each message I post, there is not much I can do about it  
>> except for adhering to the adage "don't feed the monster".
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jack
>>
> Jack... what monster?  There's an elephant in the room. Not a  
> monster.  You stole 267.00 of product from me plus cost me a bunch  
> of video production time to document it as you were smearing my name  
> in a .nl synth forum. Now everyone can see precisely what was said  
> between us.  It's all documented.  Who is 'synth'?  Is that you  
> too?  Trying to make people think the video is a virus?
>
> Regardless ... sorry guys I don't want this to blow up  
> unnecessarily.  Everyone knows what this guy did I think by now. The  
> point is made.  Jack already had some repairs redirected away from  
> him because he tried to steal and run.  It's going to cost him  
> thousands of dollars a year obviously but he just doesn't seem to be  
> a very smart thief.  Nuf said.  I'll drop the issue here so it  
> doesn't hog bandwidth.
>
> -- 
> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
> articles that could help make your eternity!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Fri Oct  4 11:09:20 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 03:09:20 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <8ABAB940-9BE4-4EC4-A1AE-FC93669224B9@gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
	<d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
	<8ABAB940-9BE4-4EC4-A1AE-FC93669224B9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <524E85C0.1000909@imt.net>

On 10/4/2013 3:01 AM, synth wrote:
> I am not who ever you are fighting with.  I only pointed out that the 
> link put up starts an auto download. Normally sites do not do this, 
> and I feel a download warning should be put up with a blind link.  Not 
> too many people want to click a blind link and a 100+ Meg file start 
> to download.
>
>
>
Wanna know why it's that way?  Because when I put in the freaking code 
they told me to use to make it NOT auto start (I can't even remember 
what the flag is... but if you look it up on google there is common html 
code used for that I guess) the whole thing didn't work.

It would just display my player's icon.  You hit 'start' button and it 
would just set there. IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO HELP ME FIX THE CODE let me 
know.  I tried the recommended no-auto-start flag and I double./ triple 
checked to make sure every detail was identical.  It just wouldn't work 
at all. Caused me a lot more pain..


-- 
Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
articles that could help make your eternity!



From roglok at hyperground.de  Fri Oct  4 11:16:02 2013
From: roglok at hyperground.de (roglok)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 11:16:02 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <524E85C0.1000909@imt.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
	<d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
	<8ABAB940-9BE4-4EC4-A1AE-FC93669224B9@gmail.com>
	<524E85C0.1000909@imt.net>
Message-ID: <0F96649E-E200-4E75-8DCA-0130B73A68A1@hyperground.de>

the easiest way would be to upload to vimeo or youtube -
if you'd like to refrain from using these services, it would be better to drop the video in a subfolder and create a hyperlink on your html page, like so:

<a href="videos/scam.flv">Click here to dowload a huge (+100MB) Flash video file</a>


On 04.10.2013, at 11:09, Bob Weigel wrote:

> On 10/4/2013 3:01 AM, synth wrote:
>> I am not who ever you are fighting with.  I only pointed out that the link put up starts an auto download. Normally sites do not do this, and I feel a download warning should be put up with a blind link.  Not too many people want to click a blind link and a 100+ Meg file start to download.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Wanna know why it's that way?  Because when I put in the freaking code they told me to use to make it NOT auto start (I can't even remember what the flag is... but if you look it up on google there is common html code used for that I guess) the whole thing didn't work.
> 
> It would just display my player's icon.  You hit 'start' button and it would just set there. IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO HELP ME FIX THE CODE let me know.  I tried the recommended no-auto-start flag and I double./ triple checked to make sure every detail was identical.  It just wouldn't work at all. Caused me a lot more pain..
> 
> 
> -- 
> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
> articles that could help make your eternity!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Fri Oct  4 11:38:09 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 03:38:09 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <0F96649E-E200-4E75-8DCA-0130B73A68A1@hyperground.de>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
	<d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
	<8ABAB940-9BE4-4EC4-A1AE-FC93669224B9@gmail.com>
	<524E85C0.1000909@imt.net>
	<0F96649E-E200-4E75-8DCA-0130B73A68A1@hyperground.de>
Message-ID: <524E8C81.8080705@imt.net>

On 10/4/2013 3:16 AM, roglok wrote:
> the easiest way would be to upload to vimeo or youtube -
> if you'd like to refrain from using these services, it would be better to drop the video in a subfolder and create a hyperlink on your html page, like so:
>
> <a href="videos/scam.flv">Click here to dowload a huge (+100MB) Flash video file</a>
>
>
the clown got it flagged and removed from youtube and vimeo.  I also put 
it on the french site that never removes anything and THEY pulled it 
too!  lol.

It's all on his bill.  If he EVER wants a reputation he can pay me for 
all the time I wasted.  Unbelievable. Anyway if anyone knows the correct 
code ... yeah I could do that. Good thought.

Thing is currently the only 'hot case' anyone is going to that page for 
is to see this video.  So I don't think it's really a priority. Let's 
drop it. I'll fix it later when Jack is of no matter anymore.

-- 
Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
articles that could help make your eternity!



From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Oct  4 11:50:44 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:50:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W41B72493EBEDF7AFC5039C97100@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>,
	<1380846162.17026.YahooMailNeo@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<DUB123-W41B72493EBEDF7AFC5039C97100@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>

My experience has been that UK customs are extremely patchy about actually applying charges. Occasionally I have been hit, and as you say, they really sting, but mostly stuff comes through without incident. Think of it as russian roulette with a postal service?!

Tom

On 4 Oct 2013, at 09:28, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Doug, 
> 
> Thanks, I did get a quote from you. I'm just trying to see if I can source some within the UK
> (or at least the EU) as I will have pay half the price again to 
> UK customs when it passes through. Making the overall cost about ?80 for one chip.
> 
> It would be nice if they would exempt diy components from import duty as there is
> a lot of very interesting stuff available in the US.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:22:42 -0700 
>> From: dougt55 at yahoo.com 
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK 
>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk; cheater00 at gmail.com; 
>> synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
>> 
>> I have verified/tested IR3R01s in stock. I think Bob owes you an 
>> apology by the way... 
>> 
>> Doug 
>> synthparts.com 
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________ 
>> From: Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> 
>> To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>; synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> 
>> Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 2:40 PM 
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK 
>> 
>> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm 
>> just a brother wanting some envelope gens. 
>> 
>> Thanks, 
>> Jack Damery 
>> ________________________________ 
>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200 
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK 
>>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com<mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com> 
>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> 
>>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>; 
>> sounddoctorin at imt.net<mailto:sounddoctorin at imt.net> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello Jack, 
>>> 
>>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson" 
>>> 
>> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk><mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>>> 
>> wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you. 
>>> 
>>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time 
>>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The 
>>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this 
>>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth 
>>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly. 
>>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way. 
>> _______________________________________________ 
>> Synth-diy mailing list 
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> 
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
>> 
>> 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From info at labofsound.com  Fri Oct  4 11:58:26 2013
From: info at labofsound.com (The Laboratory of Sound)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 11:58:26 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W24A5A7350953916E8F4F8497100@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>,
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>,
	<CACodTR-1CF4qhNpMm2fzGqW65nwDen-c+iFQYPQd7MZ2=hP27g@mail.gmail.com>,
	<524E7E94.6030705@imt.net>,
	<A0A06046-94EE-4896-83CB-E6540EB913AB@hyperground.de>
	<DUB123-W24A5A7350953916E8F4F8497100@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <befe7b8a10f23b518d6c4162aa19b056@webmail.byte.nl>

So, back on topic, Jack D., if for some reason you're not successful 
with Roland Europe, let me know. I can spare a few. The reason I 
purchased six was because I was about to service a Juno 60 whose serial 
number was within the range of serials that suffered from faulty 
(cracked) IR3R01 chips, as was mentioned in a Roland tech note. But I 
never got to service the synth, so now I have 6 spare IR3R01s. Cheers, 
Jack V.

-- 
The Laboratory of Sound
Duivenvoordestraat 28
2341 JE Oegstgeest
The Netherlands

T +31 71 517 0230

www.labofsound.com



On 2013-10-04 10:59, Jack Jackson wrote:
> Could we get this issue moved to MuffWiggler and mediated by a third
> party please?
> I'm sure there are misunderstandings on both sides and both parties
> would feel better if it could be resolved gracefully.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> ----------------------------------------
>> From: roglok at hyperground.de
>> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:51:05 +0200
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>> 
>> Bob,
>> 
>> sorry to hear that, but this mailing list is not a police station.
>> The thread is about someone asking for help with sourcing some ICs...
>> 
>> On 04.10.2013, at 10:38, Bob Weigel wrote:
>> 
>>> On 10/3/2013 3:53 PM, Pete Hartman wrote:
>>>> Bob could have done a better job with clarity, his beef is with
>>>> Laboratory of Sound who is also a Jack. He was jumping the same
>>>> person in one of my recent threads too. Personally, I think being
>>>> obnoxious on list doesn't help your own level of respect regardless 
>>>> of
>>>> how justified the dispute is (and I don't question that at all).
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jack Jackson 
>>>> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. 
>>>>> I'm just a brother wanting some envelope gens.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jack Damery
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>>>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
>>>>>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl; sounddoctorin at imt.net
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello Jack,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson"
>>>>>> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>>>>>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a 
>>>>>> long-time
>>>>>> respected member who does not act like this towards random 
>>>>>> people. The
>>>>>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this
>>>>>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the 
>>>>>> synth
>>>>>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very 
>>>>>> tightly.
>>>>>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> I've been stolen from. I'd like my money for the product Jack aka 
>>> 'laboratory of sound ' stole from me
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
>>> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
>>> articles that could help make your eternity!
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From synthesizerdiy at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 11:59:46 2013
From: synthesizerdiy at gmail.com (synth)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 04:59:46 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>,
	<1380846162.17026.YahooMailNeo@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<DUB123-W41B72493EBEDF7AFC5039C97100@phx.gbl>
	<E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <9A72B500-222E-4F22-8EF1-D2C6C591B952@gmail.com>

Have you tried a quote from Utsource for the IR3R01?


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Oct  4 12:02:18 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 11:02:18 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <9A72B500-222E-4F22-8EF1-D2C6C591B952@gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>,
	<1380846162.17026.YahooMailNeo@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<DUB123-W41B72493EBEDF7AFC5039C97100@phx.gbl>
	<E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>,
	<9A72B500-222E-4F22-8EF1-D2C6C591B952@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W17A6715CB2DB4D5818686497100@phx.gbl>

Would they actually have any legitimate examples? I know sharp made an IC also called the IR3R01 which is something else entirely. Also the same customs tax issue would apply.
----------------------------------------
> CC: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> From: synthesizerdiy at gmail.com
> To: tom at electricdruid.net
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 04:59:46 -0500
>
> Have you tried a quote from Utsource for the IR3R01? 		 	   		  

From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Oct  4 12:05:36 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 11:05:36 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>,
	<1380846162.17026.YahooMailNeo@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<DUB123-W41B72493EBEDF7AFC5039C97100@phx.gbl>,
	<E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W172E425AD36D9541CA39FC97100@phx.gbl>

Hi Tom,

Well the only two times I've ordered a large enough item to be considered (>?15) they have charged me ?8 handling fee and then the extra tax.?

I've heard before that things make it through, but say you order a large enough quantity of something to make it worth it, or a synth, you could be
hit with an unexpectedly large ransom at the post office.

?I got caught like that for some Ray Wilson gear at the post office, and the only recourse the lady offered was to 'pay now, dispute later'

----------------------------------------
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
> From: tom at electricdruid.net
> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:50:44 +0100
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
>
> My experience has been that UK customs are extremely patchy about actually applying charges. Occasionally I have been hit, and as you say, they really sting, but mostly stuff comes through without incident. Think of it as russian roulette with a postal service?!
>
> Tom
>
> On 4 Oct 2013, at 09:28, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hi Doug,
>>
>> Thanks, I did get a quote from you. I'm just trying to see if I can source some within the UK
>> (or at least the EU) as I will have pay half the price again to
>> UK customs when it passes through. Making the overall cost about ?80 for one chip.
>>
>> It would be nice if they would exempt diy components from import duty as there is
>> a lot of very interesting stuff available in the US.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:22:42 -0700
>>> From: dougt55 at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk; cheater00 at gmail.com;
>>> synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>
>>> I have verified/tested IR3R01s in stock. I think Bob owes you an
>>> apology by the way...
>>>
>>> Doug
>>> synthparts.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>
>>> To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>; synth-diy
>>> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 2:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>
>>> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm
>>> just a brother wanting some envelope gens.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jack Damery
>>> ________________________________
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200
>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com<mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>
>>>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>;
>>> sounddoctorin at imt.net<mailto:sounddoctorin at imt.net>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Jack,
>>>>
>>>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson"
>>>>
>>> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk><mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>>>>
>>>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time
>>>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The
>>>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this
>>>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth
>>>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly.
>>>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 		 	   		  

From paul at fitvideo.co.uk  Fri Oct  4 12:27:53 2013
From: paul at fitvideo.co.uk (Paul Burns (Fitvideo))
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 11:27:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>,
	<1380846162.17026.YahooMailNeo@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>	<DUB123-W41B72493EBEDF7AFC5039C97100@phx.gbl>
	<E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <000001cec0ec$629e7610$27db6230$@fitvideo.co.uk>

Re Customs, I concur , I have landed a number of Eurorack modules from here
and there including Australia, most get through , however one valued at 218
GBP got hit for "VAT" (sic) at 6.46 GBP plus 8 GBP handling charge to the
Post Office, the latter of which grates. 
They pluck a random figure from the air it would seem.

Regards

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Tom Wiltshire
Sent: 04 October 2013 10:51
To: Jack Jackson
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK

My experience has been that UK customs are extremely patchy about actually
applying charges. Occasionally I have been hit, and as you say, they really
sting, but mostly stuff comes through without incident. Think of it as
russian roulette with a postal service?!

Tom

On 4 Oct 2013, at 09:28, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Doug,
> 
> Thanks, I did get a quote from you. I'm just trying to see if I can 
> source some within the UK (or at least the EU) as I will have pay half 
> the price again to UK customs when it passes through. Making the overall
cost about ?80 for one chip.
> 
> It would be nice if they would exempt diy components from import duty 
> as there is a lot of very interesting stuff available in the US.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:22:42 -0700
>> From: dougt55 at yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk; cheater00 at gmail.com; 
>> synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> 
>> I have verified/tested IR3R01s in stock. I think Bob owes you an 
>> apology by the way...
>> 
>> Doug
>> synthparts.com
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>
>> To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>; synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 2:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>> 
>> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm 
>> just a brother wanting some envelope gens.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jack Damery
>> ________________________________
>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com<mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com>
>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>
>>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>;
>> sounddoctorin at imt.net<mailto:sounddoctorin at imt.net>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello Jack, 
>>> 
>>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson" 
>>> 
>>
<jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk><mailto:jackdamery
@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>>> 
>> wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you. 
>>> 
>>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time 
>>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The 
>>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this 
>>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth 
>>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly. 
>>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way. 
>> _______________________________________________ 
>> Synth-diy mailing list 
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl> 
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
>> 
>> 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 12:57:32 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 11:57:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
In-Reply-To: <000001cec0ec$629e7610$27db6230$@fitvideo.co.uk>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<CA+9GZUjCvJWrYsCx3b4aURpu+YhM-=xERjA4TVOFYLPxkNFR7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W304DF919AF1411ED4989F497170@phx.gbl>
	<1380846162.17026.YahooMailNeo@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<DUB123-W41B72493EBEDF7AFC5039C97100@phx.gbl>
	<E49BC01A-57B5-4AE5-A4C0-8A5E121410B5@electricdruid.net>
	<000001cec0ec$629e7610$27db6230$@fitvideo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxLi5yjRB_zUdZBjvRAo-uVkKS7aT_+0AV=WMax-Lv5_ig@mail.gmail.com>

It's worse than that.
According to a discussion with a UPS rep, the HMRC calculate VAT on
the *documented* *full* *price* of the item you bought.
Let's say you buy a Euro module from Analogue Haven at 75% discount,
and the invoice quotes the full price and the discount as a separate
item.  E.g.:

1. module FOOBER    $200
2. 75% discount          $150
ORDER TOTAL            $50

So HMRC would use the full $200 amount on which to calculate VAT.

Nice.

I got hit by this when Freescale sent over some free dev tools and
other goodies for Synth DIY raffle prizes.  Freescale's order
fullfilment people enclosed an invoice showing the full price, and
then saying "SUPPLIED FREE OF CHARGE. TOTAL = $0.00".
And then I got hit with taxes for about ?40 or so when it arrived.
Plus handling fee or course :(

Neil


On 4 October 2013 11:27, Paul Burns (Fitvideo) <paul at fitvideo.co.uk> wrote:
> Re Customs, I concur , I have landed a number of Eurorack modules from here
> and there including Australia, most get through , however one valued at 218
> GBP got hit for "VAT" (sic) at 6.46 GBP plus 8 GBP handling charge to the
> Post Office, the latter of which grates.
> They pluck a random figure from the air it would seem.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Tom Wiltshire
> Sent: 04 October 2013 10:51
> To: Jack Jackson
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>
> My experience has been that UK customs are extremely patchy about actually
> applying charges. Occasionally I have been hit, and as you say, they really
> sting, but mostly stuff comes through without incident. Think of it as
> russian roulette with a postal service?!
>
> Tom
>
> On 4 Oct 2013, at 09:28, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hi Doug,
>>
>> Thanks, I did get a quote from you. I'm just trying to see if I can
>> source some within the UK (or at least the EU) as I will have pay half
>> the price again to UK customs when it passes through. Making the overall
> cost about ?80 for one chip.
>>
>> It would be nice if they would exempt diy components from import duty
>> as there is a lot of very interesting stuff available in the US.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:22:42 -0700
>>> From: dougt55 at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk; cheater00 at gmail.com;
>>> synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>
>>> I have verified/tested IR3R01s in stock. I think Bob owes you an
>>> apology by the way...
>>>
>>> Doug
>>> synthparts.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>
>>> To: cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com>; synth-diy
>>> <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 2:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>
>>> Just want to clarify I am not the Jack involved in this dispute. I'm
>>> just a brother wanting some envelope gens.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jack Damery
>>> ________________________________
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:59:47 +0200
>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] [WTB] IR3R01 in UK
>>>> From: cheater00 at gmail.com<mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>
>>>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>;
>>> sounddoctorin at imt.net<mailto:sounddoctorin at imt.net>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Jack,
>>>>
>>>> On 3 Oct 2013 22:02, "Jack Jackson"
>>>>
>>>
> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk><mailto:jackdamery
> @hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh? Wachu talking 'bout, Willis? I don't owe you.
>>>>
>>>> I've only seen exactly two posts from you here. Bob is a long-time
>>>> respected member who does not act like this towards random people. The
>>>> burden of proof is on you, and I ask that you take seriously this
>>>> opportunity to clear things up. Otherwise you might find the synth
>>>> tech, manufacturer, and user community sticks together very tightly.
>>>> Hopefully this can be resolved in a civil way.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl<mailto:Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 15:20:56 2013
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 08:20:56 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUhhA-VY3+SRUhd6n44FbHOxSDbzCH73Cb2+6vtSCfUR2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhhA-VY3+SRUhd6n44FbHOxSDbzCH73Cb2+6vtSCfUR2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 1:41 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Say if someone stole something expensive from you, and we were all sitting
> at a table at a diner talking synths. The thief shows up, sits at our table,
> and chimes in on the topic of conversation. Everyone knows what he has done.
> Now let's say your advice is followed, no one even mentions the theft,
> including you. We are all cheery and so on. You pass him the salt when asked
> for it, with a smile. Is this kind of bizzarro world what you expect this
> list to become?

I didn't smile, welcome, or pass salt to LoS.  I did not even respond
to his direct comments in my thread about the XP-50, and I don't think
anyone else did either.

What's happening is more like if Bob was at the table, and LoS walked
up and Bob got up and got in in face and acted like that one drunk guy
at the bar who's always picking a fight.

The first time, maybe I'd give Bob a pass--having someone steal from
you sucks, after all, and I get that.

The second time I might pull Bob aside and try to privately suggest he
find a better way to deal with it.  In fact that is what I did,
off-list.  He was having none of it, and I let it drop.

By the third time I might ask him in public to find a better way to
deal with his grievance.

In the real world, if I got up in people's faces every time I was
angry about some wrong that had been done to me, I'd be in jail.

Everything is not black and white, and the (fairly mild) criticism of
Bob's behavior is not condoning the thief and passing him salt and
smiling--that's ridiculous and wrong.



>One could also see it the following way: every post by a scammer (be it Lab of Sound or not) raises the noise floor. And trying to fix this issue is more >than correct.

I agree with you about the noise floor, but we all know there are
multiple sources of noise, and none of them help the signal.

I'm all for Bob trying to fix the issue.  Being obnoxious is not the only way.

Here's an idea:  instead of attacking and being "in his face" how
about one time in every thread where LoS pops up, write a calm "this
guy has stolen from me, if you want the details, go see my link".
Obviously LoS isn't going to respond directly to Bob, so there's no
point in trying to get a reaction--just provide the public service
announcement so we're all aware.

See, that's not "no one say anything"....it gets the message out and
doesn't make Bob seem like an obnoxious jerk.  I don't think it does
anything significant to the noise floor either.

I also think the rest of us can make it clear, without even having to
talk directly to LoS, that he's not welcome until he can resolve this
dispute with Bob.  I certainly plan not to respond to anything he
posts from here out.  Bob alerting any newbies, and the rest of us
ignoring him seems like a civil AND direct way to fix the issue.  What
will he have to gain by being here then?


But as I write I see Bob has come to his own conclusions on the
matter.  I'm still sending this, because I won't stand for accusations
that I'm supporting the thief.  And my suggestion of a different way
to confront LoS stands as well.  Hopefully we can get back to talking
about synths now :-).


From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  4 15:30:04 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:30:04 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhhA-VY3+SRUhd6n44FbHOxSDbzCH73Cb2+6vtSCfUR2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY404-EAS186867DD77DECC0BD5C2EE2C8100@phx.gbl>

much agreed

"
I also think the rest of us can make it clear, without even having to
talk directly to LoS, that he's not welcome until he can resolve this
dispute with Bob.  I certainly plan not to respond to anything he
posts from here out.  Bob alerting any newbies, and the rest of us
ignoring him seems like a civil AND direct way to fix the issue.  What
will he have to gain by being here then?
"







Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 4, 2013, at 9:22 AM, "Pete Hartman" <pete.hartman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I also think the rest of us can make it clear, without even having to
> talk directly to LoS, that he's not welcome until he can resolve this
> dispute with Bob.  I certainly plan not to respond to anything he
> posts from here out.  Bob alerting any newbies, and the rest of us
> ignoring him seems like a civil AND direct way to fix the issue.  What
> will he have to gain by being here then?


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 15:56:47 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:56:47 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhhA-VY3+SRUhd6n44FbHOxSDbzCH73Cb2+6vtSCfUR2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUjC8DU6mgMr3mqXS_ASfxF5dZ-1OjRe+__M51ze7uSBdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Pete Hartman <pete.hartman at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 1:41 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Say if someone stole something expensive from you, and we were all sitting
>> at a table at a diner talking synths. The thief shows up, sits at our table,
>> and chimes in on the topic of conversation. Everyone knows what he has done.
>> Now let's say your advice is followed, no one even mentions the theft,
>> including you. We are all cheery and so on. You pass him the salt when asked
>> for it, with a smile. Is this kind of bizzarro world what you expect this
>> list to become?
>
> I didn't smile, welcome, or pass salt to LoS.  I did not even respond
> to his direct comments in my thread about the XP-50, and I don't think
> anyone else did either.
>
> What's happening is more like if Bob was at the table, and LoS walked
> up and Bob got up and got in in face and acted like that one drunk guy
> at the bar who's always picking a fight.
>
> The first time, maybe I'd give Bob a pass--having someone steal from
> you sucks, after all, and I get that.
>
> The second time I might pull Bob aside and try to privately suggest he
> find a better way to deal with it.  In fact that is what I did,
> off-list.  He was having none of it, and I let it drop.
>
> By the third time I might ask him in public to find a better way to
> deal with his grievance.
>
> In the real world, if I got up in people's faces every time I was
> angry about some wrong that had been done to me, I'd be in jail.
>
> Everything is not black and white, and the (fairly mild) criticism of
> Bob's behavior is not condoning the thief and passing him salt and
> smiling--that's ridiculous and wrong.
>
>
>
>>One could also see it the following way: every post by a scammer (be it Lab of Sound or not) raises the noise floor. And trying to fix this issue is more >than correct.
>
> I agree with you about the noise floor, but we all know there are
> multiple sources of noise, and none of them help the signal.
>
> I'm all for Bob trying to fix the issue.  Being obnoxious is not the only way.
>
> Here's an idea:  instead of attacking and being "in his face" how
> about one time in every thread where LoS pops up, write a calm "this
> guy has stolen from me, if you want the details, go see my link".
> Obviously LoS isn't going to respond directly to Bob, so there's no
> point in trying to get a reaction--just provide the public service
> announcement so we're all aware.
>
> See, that's not "no one say anything"....it gets the message out and
> doesn't make Bob seem like an obnoxious jerk.  I don't think it does
> anything significant to the noise floor either.
>
> I also think the rest of us can make it clear, without even having to
> talk directly to LoS, that he's not welcome until he can resolve this
> dispute with Bob.  I certainly plan not to respond to anything he
> posts from here out.  Bob alerting any newbies, and the rest of us
> ignoring him seems like a civil AND direct way to fix the issue.  What
> will he have to gain by being here then?
>
>
> But as I write I see Bob has come to his own conclusions on the
> matter.  I'm still sending this, because I won't stand for accusations
> that I'm supporting the thief.  And my suggestion of a different way
> to confront LoS stands as well.  Hopefully we can get back to talking
> about synths now :-).

OK, I see what you have meant before. I agree with your email. But
bear in mind that in the digital world there is no police and no jail,
so we can really only go with with wild west sensibility here. Bob
cannot resolve this matter in a legal "real world" way. This is a huge
difference, don't forget it.

D.


From dasnut at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 16:09:39 2013
From: dasnut at gmail.com (dasnut)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 15:09:39 +0100
Subject: [sdiy]  Circuit Design \ Approval \ Checking
Message-ID: <524ECC23.3030803@gmail.com>

Hi All,

short time lurker, first time poster here.

I was wondering if anyone knew of a service or group that would take a 
look at a specific circuit design and give it a rubber stamp from a best 
practice \ safety perspective?

cheers,

dasnut


From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Fri Oct  4 16:32:07 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:32:07 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <524E85C0.1000909@imt.net>
References: <DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
	<d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
	<8ABAB940-9BE4-4EC4-A1AE-FC93669224B9@gmail.com>
	<524E85C0.1000909@imt.net>
Message-ID: <20131004143207.GA13484@gjcp.net>

On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 03:09:20AM -0600, Bob Weigel wrote:
> It would just display my player's icon.  You hit 'start' button and
> it would just set there. IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO HELP ME FIX THE CODE
> let me know.  I tried the recommended no-auto-start flag and I
> double./ triple checked to make sure every detail was identical.  It
> just wouldn't work at all. Caused me a lot more pain..

It's a bit evil if you're on a low-bandwidth connection like GPRS, as I frequently am.

If you don't want to upload the video to Youtube/Vimeo/whoever is flavour of the month, then you could consider using Flowplayer which is a very, very simple library to embed a video player on your site.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ



From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Fri Oct  4 16:34:49 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:34:49 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Sorry,
 reply-to considered weird - was Re: Squabbling (was Re: [WTB]
 IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <20131004143207.GA13484@gjcp.net>
References: <B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
	<d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
	<8ABAB940-9BE4-4EC4-A1AE-FC93669224B9@gmail.com>
	<524E85C0.1000909@imt.net> <20131004143207.GA13484@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <20131004143449.GB13484@gjcp.net>

Sorry folks, that was meant to be an off-list reply.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ


From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Fri Oct  4 16:36:42 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:36:42 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Circuit Design \ Approval \ Checking
In-Reply-To: <524ECC23.3030803@gmail.com>
References: <524ECC23.3030803@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131004143642.GA14030@gjcp.net>

On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 03:09:39PM +0100, dasnut wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> short time lurker, first time poster here.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone knew of a service or group that would take
> a look at a specific circuit design and give it a rubber stamp from
> a best practice \ safety perspective?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> dasnut

Stick it up where we can see it, and you'll get a whole bunch of opinions.  Some good, some bad, some helpful, some unhelpful, but they sure as hell will be opinions :-D

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ



From roglok at hyperground.de  Fri Oct  4 16:51:49 2013
From: roglok at hyperground.de (roglok)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 16:51:49 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Circuit Design \ Approval \ Checking
In-Reply-To: <20131004143642.GA14030@gjcp.net>
References: <524ECC23.3030803@gmail.com> <20131004143642.GA14030@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <650B6BC8-4BC3-458F-A721-43C88432D489@hyperground.de>

the DIY section on muffwiggler.com is a good place for that, too...
 
On 04.10.2013, at 16:36, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 03:09:39PM +0100, dasnut wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> short time lurker, first time poster here.
>> 
>> I was wondering if anyone knew of a service or group that would take
>> a look at a specific circuit design and give it a rubber stamp from
>> a best practice \ safety perspective?
>> 
>> cheers,
>> 
>> dasnut
> 
> Stick it up where we can see it, and you'll get a whole bunch of opinions.  Some good, some bad, some helpful, some unhelpful, but they sure as hell will be opinions :-D
> 
> -- 
> Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Oct  4 17:00:01 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 16:00:01 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Circuit Design \ Approval \ Checking
In-Reply-To: <20131004143642.GA14030@gjcp.net>
References: <524ECC23.3030803@gmail.com> <20131004143642.GA14030@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <54473E8F-6B77-49A1-AE03-5FD048957FB7@electricdruid.net>


On 4 Oct 2013, at 15:36, Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 03:09:39PM +0100, dasnut wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> short time lurker, first time poster here.
>> 
>> I was wondering if anyone knew of a service or group that would take
>> a look at a specific circuit design and give it a rubber stamp from
>> a best practice \ safety perspective?
>> 
>> cheers,
>> 
>> dasnut
> 
> Stick it up where we can see it, and you'll get a whole bunch of opinions.  Some good, some bad, some helpful, some unhelpful, but they sure as hell will be opinions :-D

Absolutely agree! Put the circuit up online somewhere, and post a link to the list. Everyone loves to see other people's work, and many eyes spot obvious howlers pretty fast. It's a free service and it's fast too, but it won't get you past any known certification body!

Tom





From dlmanley at sonic.net  Fri Oct  4 17:04:40 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 08:04:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Prophet 10 op-amp swaps?
In-Reply-To: <11473D5B-A00F-43E5-B7D7-952C14CDC166@ericframpton.com>
References: <20130731114142.12367AD4@m0005309.ppops.net>
	<CA+9GZUgkK33hJLJPYnZ9szxvDE1+4H8KsHhwaTpLtOfNqC7LxA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcf3d7c0903d71153519f6b285b68027.squirrel@legacy-webmail.sonic.net>
	<5BCF46A1-A4BE-400D-AE71-847A2D091E64@ericframpton.com>
	<448e01e6-7188-4613-8bae-ef13d999b15a@email.android.com>
	<3418EE09-4BA0-46FC-8994-81448B2DA819@ericframpton.com>
	<56290819-b039-4c28-a4ec-a6ab1dea1c77@email.android.com>
	<3c630a66-ad8b-4dbe-a653-f0b5871d7c70@email.android.com>
	<51FA15C2.5020704@btinternet.com>
	<7FBC9FE1-6E04-4A09-8802-B20BC62BB521@electricdruid.net>
	<39AE76DB-5299-44D7-96D7-C94182DD434D@ericframpton.com>
	<51FF726B.5000009@btinternet.com>
	<11473D5B-A00F-43E5-B7D7-952C14CDC166@ericframpton.com>
Message-ID: <a999f56b-37b8-4c23-8705-fb95d6a8f4e2@email.android.com>

There's an inverse relationship:

           Freq = (1/period)

So 2us = 500kHz.

Think about an LFO at 2Hz.  You get two cycles per second.  So each cycle has to be half a second.  Make sense?

Dave (is it key-lo-Hertz or kill-a-Hertz) Manley

Eric Frampton <eric at ericframpton.com> wrote:
>Hi all -
>
>After way too long I bought a tube of OPA124's, and tonight I finally
>found the time to A/B/C those with the original LF356's and the
>LM49710's.
>
>Now, to further show my ignorant ass in front of a bunch of brilliant
>EE's, I thought I'd post one last note in this thread.
>
>So,
>
>Although I understand the argument that the LM49710's have such a
>stupidly wide bandwidth that they could go unstable, I've yet to see or
>hear that actually happen in all my banging around on the P-10. That
>said, I certainly don't have the test equipment to formally measure
>into the GHz range where strange stuff like that might occur. All I
>know is, with either the 49710's or the OPA134's dropped in there, the
>veil totally comes off of that machine. To me, it finally becomes
>inspiring to play - which is all I was after when I began this damned
>exercise anyway!
>
>In the final 6 output op-amps (the ones directly driving the balanced
>upper/lower/mono outputs on the back of the unit), I can't see or hear
>any PRACTICAL difference between the 134's and the 49710's, though I
>grant that there's likely an electronic one that I'm oblivious to. The
>very small (100mV P-P) waveform I was describing before is, as best I
>can figure, a noisy but periodic wave from the switching power supply
>on my halogen bench lights coupled (perhaps) with the motor noise from
>my dehumidifier.
>
>I only learned that after discovering what a proper op-amp oscillation
>looked like tonight:
>
>Dropping an OPA134 in the output of either EQ section presented a
>crystal-clear sine wave up in the 2MHz range (a 2uS period is 2MHz,
>right? I failed math!) at, like, a 10x greater amplitude as the noisy
>wave described above. Whether the chip was socketed or not made no
>difference, I tried both. When going back to the 49710 with a cap
>strapped across the top (now that I know what a proper oscillation
>looks like) I can say that that oscillation completely disappeared. I'm
>sure the same thing would happen with a cap across a '134, but
>(frankly) the other works, so until something blows up I'm going with
>it.
>
>Thanks again, everybody, for all your help. I'm going to go back to
>making music now.
>
>Eric
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Fri Oct  4 17:06:09 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 08:06:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhhA-VY3+SRUhd6n44FbHOxSDbzCH73Cb2+6vtSCfUR2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <431A74B4-1B4F-4F5C-B447-274B16117760@earthlink.net>

Hi all,

Could someone send me bit of info on the IR3R01 device so that I can check to see if I have this over at my office?

I usually have some Roland parts in bins in my warehouse, btw, my Guitarist I jam with works at Roland Service Center in City Of Commerce and he has been able to get me Roland parts if I need them.

best regards,

Terry Shultz
thx1138 at earthlink.net
On Oct 4, 2013, at 6:20 AM, Pete Hartman <pete.hartman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 1:41 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Say if someone stole something expensive from you, and we were all sitting
>> at a table at a diner talking synths. The thief shows up, sits at our table,
>> and chimes in on the topic of conversation. Everyone knows what he has done.
>> Now let's say your advice is followed, no one even mentions the theft,
>> including you. We are all cheery and so on. You pass him the salt when asked
>> for it, with a smile. Is this kind of bizzarro world what you expect this
>> list to become?
> 
> I didn't smile, welcome, or pass salt to LoS.  I did not even respond
> to his direct comments in my thread about the XP-50, and I don't think
> anyone else did either.
> 
> What's happening is more like if Bob was at the table, and LoS walked
> up and Bob got up and got in in face and acted like that one drunk guy
> at the bar who's always picking a fight.
> 
> The first time, maybe I'd give Bob a pass--having someone steal from
> you sucks, after all, and I get that.
> 
> The second time I might pull Bob aside and try to privately suggest he
> find a better way to deal with it.  In fact that is what I did,
> off-list.  He was having none of it, and I let it drop.
> 
> By the third time I might ask him in public to find a better way to
> deal with his grievance.
> 
> In the real world, if I got up in people's faces every time I was
> angry about some wrong that had been done to me, I'd be in jail.
> 
> Everything is not black and white, and the (fairly mild) criticism of
> Bob's behavior is not condoning the thief and passing him salt and
> smiling--that's ridiculous and wrong.
> 
> 
> 
>> One could also see it the following way: every post by a scammer (be it Lab of Sound or not) raises the noise floor. And trying to fix this issue is more >than correct.
> 
> I agree with you about the noise floor, but we all know there are
> multiple sources of noise, and none of them help the signal.
> 
> I'm all for Bob trying to fix the issue.  Being obnoxious is not the only way.
> 
> Here's an idea:  instead of attacking and being "in his face" how
> about one time in every thread where LoS pops up, write a calm "this
> guy has stolen from me, if you want the details, go see my link".
> Obviously LoS isn't going to respond directly to Bob, so there's no
> point in trying to get a reaction--just provide the public service
> announcement so we're all aware.
> 
> See, that's not "no one say anything"....it gets the message out and
> doesn't make Bob seem like an obnoxious jerk.  I don't think it does
> anything significant to the noise floor either.
> 
> I also think the rest of us can make it clear, without even having to
> talk directly to LoS, that he's not welcome until he can resolve this
> dispute with Bob.  I certainly plan not to respond to anything he
> posts from here out.  Bob alerting any newbies, and the rest of us
> ignoring him seems like a civil AND direct way to fix the issue.  What
> will he have to gain by being here then?
> 
> 
> But as I write I see Bob has come to his own conclusions on the
> matter.  I'm still sending this, because I won't stand for accusations
> that I'm supporting the thief.  And my suggestion of a different way
> to confront LoS stands as well.  Hopefully we can get back to talking
> about synths now :-).
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Oct  4 17:21:24 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 16:21:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <431A74B4-1B4F-4F5C-B447-274B16117760@earthlink.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>,
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>,
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>,
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>,
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<CA+9GZUhhA-VY3+SRUhd6n44FbHOxSDbzCH73Cb2+6vtSCfUR2w@mail.gmail.com>,
	<CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>,
	<431A74B4-1B4F-4F5C-B447-274B16117760@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W430EF735BAE3171F3DC6D597100@phx.gbl>

Hi Terry,

It's an analogue envelope generator(ADSR) chip produced by Roland between about 1980 and 1989. It was used in the Jupiter 8, Juno 60, MKS7 etc.

Roland part number is : 15229807
Name is : IR3R01
Package is: 16 pin DIP





----------------------------------------
> From: thx1138 at earthlink.net
> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 08:06:09 -0700
> To: pete.hartman at gmail.com
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
>
> Hi all,
>
> Could someone send me bit of info on the IR3R01 device so that I can check to see if I have this over at my office?
>
> I usually have some Roland parts in bins in my warehouse, btw, my Guitarist I jam with works at Roland Service Center in City Of Commerce and he has been able to get me Roland parts if I need them.
>
> best regards,
>
> Terry Shultz
> thx1138 at earthlink.net
> On Oct 4, 2013, at 6:20 AM, Pete Hartman <pete.hartman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 1:41 AM, cheater00 . <cheater00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Say if someone stole something expensive from you, and we were all sitting
>>> at a table at a diner talking synths. The thief shows up, sits at our table,
>>> and chimes in on the topic of conversation. Everyone knows what he has done.
>>> Now let's say your advice is followed, no one even mentions the theft,
>>> including you. We are all cheery and so on. You pass him the salt when asked
>>> for it, with a smile. Is this kind of bizzarro world what you expect this
>>> list to become?
>>
>> I didn't smile, welcome, or pass salt to LoS. I did not even respond
>> to his direct comments in my thread about the XP-50, and I don't think
>> anyone else did either.
>>
>> What's happening is more like if Bob was at the table, and LoS walked
>> up and Bob got up and got in in face and acted like that one drunk guy
>> at the bar who's always picking a fight.
>>
>> The first time, maybe I'd give Bob a pass--having someone steal from
>> you sucks, after all, and I get that.
>>
>> The second time I might pull Bob aside and try to privately suggest he
>> find a better way to deal with it. In fact that is what I did,
>> off-list. He was having none of it, and I let it drop.
>>
>> By the third time I might ask him in public to find a better way to
>> deal with his grievance.
>>
>> In the real world, if I got up in people's faces every time I was
>> angry about some wrong that had been done to me, I'd be in jail.
>>
>> Everything is not black and white, and the (fairly mild) criticism of
>> Bob's behavior is not condoning the thief and passing him salt and
>> smiling--that's ridiculous and wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>>> One could also see it the following way: every post by a scammer (be it Lab of Sound or not) raises the noise floor. And trying to fix this issue is more>than correct.
>>
>> I agree with you about the noise floor, but we all know there are
>> multiple sources of noise, and none of them help the signal.
>>
>> I'm all for Bob trying to fix the issue. Being obnoxious is not the only way.
>>
>> Here's an idea: instead of attacking and being "in his face" how
>> about one time in every thread where LoS pops up, write a calm "this
>> guy has stolen from me, if you want the details, go see my link".
>> Obviously LoS isn't going to respond directly to Bob, so there's no
>> point in trying to get a reaction--just provide the public service
>> announcement so we're all aware.
>>
>> See, that's not "no one say anything"....it gets the message out and
>> doesn't make Bob seem like an obnoxious jerk. I don't think it does
>> anything significant to the noise floor either.
>>
>> I also think the rest of us can make it clear, without even having to
>> talk directly to LoS, that he's not welcome until he can resolve this
>> dispute with Bob. I certainly plan not to respond to anything he
>> posts from here out. Bob alerting any newbies, and the rest of us
>> ignoring him seems like a civil AND direct way to fix the issue. What
>> will he have to gain by being here then?
>>
>>
>> But as I write I see Bob has come to his own conclusions on the
>> matter. I'm still sending this, because I won't stand for accusations
>> that I'm supporting the thief. And my suggestion of a different way
>> to confront LoS stands as well. Hopefully we can get back to talking
>> about synths now :-).
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Fri Oct  4 19:48:44 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 11:48:44 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhhA-VY3+SRUhd6n44FbHOxSDbzCH73Cb2+6vtSCfUR2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <524EFF7C.5020307@imt.net>

On 10/4/2013 7:20 AM, Pete Hartman wrote:
> What's happening is more like if Bob was at the table, and LoS walked 
> up and Bob got up and got in in face and acted like that one drunk guy 
> at the bar who's always picking a fight. 
This is ridiculous.  I'm just pointing out the FACT that this guy ripped 
off 267.00.  That's no petty amount to me in my time of need. I don't 
drink.   And this is a ridiculous comparison.

It's like we're at dinner... the thief joins in and I'm supposed to sit 
there and just act like nothing happened between us.    Like I say 
people know..that's my goal. If it were ME hearing this from someone 
else, I'd be all over jacks case.  IF JACK SAT DOWN with a dinner part 
of people like ME.... they would all look at the documentation and say 
"jack make this right or get the heck out of here"

-- 
Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
articles that could help make your eternity!



From dlmanley at sonic.net  Fri Oct  4 19:53:05 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 10:53:05 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Circuit Design \ Approval \ Checking
In-Reply-To: <54473E8F-6B77-49A1-AE03-5FD048957FB7@electricdruid.net>
References: <524ECC23.3030803@gmail.com> <20131004143642.GA14030@gjcp.net>
	<54473E8F-6B77-49A1-AE03-5FD048957FB7@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <76ef8802-7e92-47b1-b7e5-e066b3dcca3f@email.android.com>

The OP may want a non-public review for various reasons...


From thomas at pdp7.org  Fri Oct  4 23:14:58 2013
From: thomas at pdp7.org (Thomas Strathmann)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 23:14:58 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <524EFF7C.5020307@imt.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUhhA-VY3+SRUhd6n44FbHOxSDbzCH73Cb2+6vtSCfUR2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR8qxHFVUAZiFJN9-aF-c-du=fxW6h-EgVZrV2PVp-j19A@mail.gmail.com>
	<524EFF7C.5020307@imt.net>
Message-ID: <524F2FD2.9080809@pdp7.org>

On 04.10.13 19:48, Bob Weigel wrote:
> This is ridiculous.

Exactly.


From metadata at gmx.com  Sat Oct  5 03:28:50 2013
From: metadata at gmx.com (neil harper)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 21:28:50 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Envelope to Gate/Trigger circuit?
In-Reply-To: <9f97d886c89c72ff71330259789285da@aladan.net>
References: <1380863793.1779.11.camel@nwwtlaptop>
	<9f97d886c89c72ff71330259789285da@aladan.net>
Message-ID: <1380936530.1779.19.camel@nwwtlaptop>

excellent, thanks!

On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 22:24 -0700, eidorian at aladan.net wrote:
> On 2013-10-03 22:16, neil harper wrote:
> > hey guys and gals,
> > i'm just wondering if there already exists a circuit that can output 
> > a
> > gate and trigger from an existing envelope?
> >
> > the gate part could be a comparator, going high with an input >0V. 
> > that
> > seems pretty straight forward. the trigger i suppose would go high 
> > when
> > a falling voltage starts rising again.. seems like an easy problem 
> > for a
> > microcontroller, but i have no clue how that would be done analog. 
> > any
> > ideas?
> 
> As often is the case, Ken's your man.  Assuming a straightforward ADSR 
> or AR envelope:
> 
> Gate (use the "rising" output) - 
> http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs62_sd.html
> Trigger (use the "rising" output from the Gate as its input) - 
> http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html
> 
> Cheers,
> A.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

-- 
//neil harper
every wave is new until it breaks



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Sat Oct  5 18:22:18 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:22:18 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
Message-ID: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>

I've been looking at the schematic of the IR3109 freely available on the web. It is just four OTAs, four buffers and an expo converter apparently. The main missing piece of knowledge is the values of the internal resistors between the gain cells non-inverting inputs and ground:

http://flic.kr/p/goAsc3

The schematic also has a bit of useful information:

http://flic.kr/p/goABBB

I have 2 of these chips to hand. Can anyone think of a way to deduce the value of the resistors by taking measurements externally etc?

Thanks,
Jack 		 	   		  

From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Sat Oct  5 19:40:31 2013
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 19:40:31 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Jack and all,

Am 05.10.2013 18:22, schrieb Jack Jackson:
> I've been looking at the schematic of the IR3109 freely available on the web. It is just four OTAs, four buffers and an expo converter apparently. The main missing piece of knowledge is the values of the internal resistors between the gain cells non-inverting inputs and ground:
>
> http://flic.kr/p/goAsc3

These look to me like the typical opamp input current compensation 
resistors. Usually one would keep the impedances seen at both input 
terminals equal (most often done on bipolar opamps).

However I'd think they are really superfluous, because applications are 
probably not necessarily providing this specific impedance at the other 
terminal. And also the offset is easily removed by any DC blocking caps 
that are in the path.

> The schematic also has a bit of useful information:
>
> http://flic.kr/p/goABBB
>
> I have 2 of these chips to hand. Can anyone think of a way to deduce the value of the resistors by taking measurements externally etc?

I think so. If one makes the gain stage into a unity gain follower by 
feeding back the output by a variable resistor from CAP to IN terminal, 
one would find the minimum offset at some resistance setting.
That should be close to the internal resistance. The output (=CAP) would 
sit near GND, because the + input is tied to that.
For this to work one would also need to feed something into the CV input 
of course, to open up the gain stage.

Cheers,
  Ren?


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.schmitzbits.de/


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Sat Oct  5 19:54:54 2013
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 19:54:54 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>
	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <5250526E.40404@uni-bonn.de>

Am 05.10.2013 19:40, I wrote:

 > And also the offset is easily removed by any DC blocking caps
 > that are in the path.

Forget that I said that. The input current is varying, because of the 
Ibias of the OTA, and so is the offset....

-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.schmitzbits.de/


From synthesizerdiy at gmail.com  Sat Oct  5 20:16:08 2013
From: synthesizerdiy at gmail.com (synth)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 13:16:08 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <5250526E.40404@uni-bonn.de>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>
	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de> <5250526E.40404@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <82765973-7F92-4057-96D6-BD4E0EE062C7@gmail.com>

Could you not just dissolve the case in the acetone and then measure  
the parts with a meter?



On Oct 5, 2013, at 12:54 PM, Ren? Schmitz wrote:

> Am 05.10.2013 19:40, I wrote:
>
> > And also the offset is easily removed by any DC blocking caps
> > that are in the path.
>
> Forget that I said that. The input current is varying, because of  
> the Ibias of the OTA, and so is the offset....
>
> -- 
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.schmitzbits.de/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Sat Oct  5 21:40:19 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:40:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <82765973-7F92-4057-96D6-BD4E0EE062C7@gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
	<5250526E.40404@uni-bonn.de>
	<82765973-7F92-4057-96D6-BD4E0EE062C7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52506B23.2050702@mnet-online.de>

On 05.10.13 20:16 , synth wrote:
> Could you not just dissolve the case in the acetone and then measure the
> parts with a meter?
The IR3109 is not the 80017a (which is a pcb with SMD ICs in resin).

Florian



From synthesizerdiy at gmail.com  Sat Oct  5 21:44:11 2013
From: synthesizerdiy at gmail.com (synth)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 14:44:11 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <52506B23.2050702@mnet-online.de>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
	<5250526E.40404@uni-bonn.de>
	<82765973-7F92-4057-96D6-BD4E0EE062C7@gmail.com>
	<52506B23.2050702@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <00D481F6-83D5-4A5A-A43F-7823B3F4A04F@gmail.com>

Thanks for that info.  I was thinking it was the other IC this whole  
thread.  Should have goggled it.



On Oct 5, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Florian Anwander wrote:

> On 05.10.13 20:16 , synth wrote:
>> Could you not just dissolve the case in the acetone and then  
>> measure the
>> parts with a meter?
> The IR3109 is not the 80017a (which is a pcb with SMD ICs in resin).
>
> Florian
>



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Oct  6 01:14:35 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 00:14:35 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>,
	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl>

So, if I understand correctly. Ill connect a potentiometer as a variable resistor between CAP and IN. +V, -V, and ground pins wired as normal.?

I'll take a DMM reading of voltage at CAP, and adjust the potentiometer until the voltages reads 0V. Then the impedance setting of the pot will mirror the internal resistor.

Is that right? Or do I take a measurement elsewhere?

Cheers,
Jack


>> I have 2 of these chips to hand. Can anyone think of a way to deduce the value of the resistors by taking measurements externally etc?
>
> I think so. If one makes the gain stage into a unity gain follower by
> feeding back the output by a variable resistor from CAP to IN terminal,
> one would find the minimum offset at some resistance setting.
> That should be close to the internal resistance. The output (=CAP) would
> sit near GND, because the + input is tied to that.
> For this to work one would also need to feed something into the CV input
> of course, to open up the gain stage.
>
> Cheers,
> Ren?
>
>
> --
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.schmitzbits.de/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Sun Oct  6 05:13:32 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:13:32 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>,
	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
	<DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5250D55C.2000702@imt.net>

On 10/5/2013 5:14 PM, Jack Jackson wrote:
> So, if I understand correctly. Ill connect a potentiometer as a variable resistor between CAP and IN. +V, -V, and ground pins wired as normal.
>
> I'll take a DMM reading of voltage at CAP, and adjust the potentiometer until the voltages reads 0V. Then the impedance setting of the pot will mirror the internal resistor.
>
> Is that right? Or do I take a measurement elsewhere?
>
> Cheers,
> Jack
>
There is no way to externally measure the resistance from the non-invert 
of each OTA to ground since the impedances internally on the ota are 
unknown and no doubt much higher than the resistances shown outside of 
the OTA circuits.

These resistors are there to even out the response and I seem to recall 
they are 220 to 1k zone.  You'd be safe to try that because of the 
reason they are there and the impedance of the non invert input.  I 
seriously doubt you'd here an audio difference if you used anything in 
that range there.

Oh wait... I actually wrote in the value on my diagram in my juno106 
hard copy.  I can't recall where I got it. But 560 ohm is the value.  
The guy in Europe who 'cloned' it did a nice job audio wise i think.  I 
used one in an MKS30 and can't tell a difference.  He used the 13600's 
and did things a little different.

(Bear in mind the module in the juno USES an IR3109 inside the potting.  
The way the filter is designed is very similar to the other Junos and 
JX3P as I recall.

-- 
Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
articles that could help make your eternity!



From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Sun Oct  6 06:03:37 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 21:03:37 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <52506B23.2050702@mnet-online.de>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
	<5250526E.40404@uni-bonn.de>
	<82765973-7F92-4057-96D6-BD4E0EE062C7@gmail.com>
	<52506B23.2050702@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <9066E904-721A-4977-BC3E-4B6B0CC595BF@earthlink.net>

Hi Guys,

We used Nitric Acid to depot IC's at Motorola/Freescale.

regards,

Terry
On Oct 5, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Florian Anwander <fanwander at mnet-online.de> wrote:

> On 05.10.13 20:16 , synth wrote:
>> Could you not just dissolve the case in the acetone and then measure the
>> parts with a meter?
> The IR3109 is not the 80017a (which is a pcb with SMD ICs in resin).
> 
> Florian
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From ggg at fgi.lv  Sun Oct  6 09:37:32 2013
From: ggg at fgi.lv (GGG)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:37:32 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
Message-ID: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>

Dear collegues,
	There are lot of classical synth clones arround, available as DIY
kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80 VCF, there are active
discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT, about to be on sale.
	I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths? What's a
procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy to get a permissoin from
producers , like Korg or Yamaha, just because of hudge scale of companies
and beurocracy and Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of the clone
adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is this still
considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree of upgrades, one should
add?

Best regards,

Girts



From rsdio at sounds.wa.com  Sun Oct  6 10:06:04 2013
From: rsdio at sounds.wa.com (rsdio at sounds.wa.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 01:06:04 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
Message-ID: <48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>

Girts,

I am no lawyer, but I think that the biggest problem would be using  
the trademarked names when referring to a clone. CS-80 and TR-909  
might still be trademarked, even if any patents on the circuits have  
expired. And a clone company certainly cannot use names like Yamaha,  
Roland, or ARP to promote their product.

Of course, Moog sued ARP over the ladder filter, but I assume that  
any patent on the ladder VCF has now expired. It's tough finding all  
the patents, though.

Brian Willoughby
Sound Consulting


On Oct 6, 2013, at 00:37, GGG wrote:
> 	There are lot of classical synth clones arround, available as DIY
> kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80 VCF, there are active
> discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT, about to be on sale.
> 	I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths? What's a
> procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy to get a  
> permissoin from
> producers , like Korg or Yamaha, just because of hudge scale of  
> companies
> and beurocracy and Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of  
> the clone
> adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is this  
> still
> considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree of upgrades, one  
> should
> add?




From tom at electricdruid.net  Sun Oct  6 11:59:07 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:59:07 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
Message-ID: <D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>

I've read around this topic a bit with respect to cloning of stomp boxes. Most of the famous old pedals are now available in any number of "boutique" versions. The position with clones seems to be based on what you *can* protect:

1) Schematics can be copyrighted. You can't copy someone else's copyrighted schematic. Draw your own.

2) Product and company names can be trademarked. You can't use "Roland Jupiter" for your new clone. Hence "xoxBox" and similar.

3) Certain innovative aspects of a circuit could be patented. For stomp boxes this is extremely rare. For synths, the Moog filter is the most famous example, but Yamaha's FM patent would be another. But patents lapse eventually.

Since none of these three legal protections cover the actual circuit itself, it's very difficult to prevent anyone cloning your circuit. Since stomp boxes are simple enough to trace out the whole thing and measure values, this is exactly what happens. Synths are more complicated, and that provides some protection. The best protection of all is to include a custom chip/ASIC/FPGA or uP with custom software in the design. No-one has cloned the DX7's hardware, despite the patent having expired, although there are software clones that would infringe it if it were still acting.

So if you can copy the circuit, and there's no patent in force, and you don't use anyone's trademark, you can do it and no-one really has any legal recourse.

Of course, whether this is the *right* thing to do is a different discussion. In the case of long-dead products (particularly of long-dead manufacturers) I don't have a problem with it. If people start cloning my latest module idea whilst I'm still trying to sell it, I might feel rather differently.

HTH,
Tom


On 6 Oct 2013, at 09:06, rsdio at sounds.wa.com wrote:

> Girts,
> 
> I am no lawyer, but I think that the biggest problem would be using the trademarked names when referring to a clone. CS-80 and TR-909 might still be trademarked, even if any patents on the circuits have expired. And a clone company certainly cannot use names like Yamaha, Roland, or ARP to promote their product.
> 
> Of course, Moog sued ARP over the ladder filter, but I assume that any patent on the ladder VCF has now expired. It's tough finding all the patents, though.
> 
> Brian Willoughby
> Sound Consulting
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2013, at 00:37, GGG wrote:
>> 	There are lot of classical synth clones arround, available as DIY
>> kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80 VCF, there are active
>> discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT, about to be on sale.
>> 	I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths? What's a
>> procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy to get a permissoin from
>> producers , like Korg or Yamaha, just because of hudge scale of companies
>> and beurocracy and Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of the clone
>> adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is this still
>> considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree of upgrades, one should
>> add?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From richard at wentk.com  Sun Oct  6 12:18:09 2013
From: richard at wentk.com (Richard Wentk)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:18:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
Message-ID: <D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>

I think Tom covered it. Adding extra features won't protect you from legal action, because key circuit features and techniques are patented, and your new features won't change that.

But most vintage patents have expired now, and the lack of legal action suggests the big names don't really care about chasing down imitators. If nothing else it would be bad PR.

In any case, most new designs use modern components. So the schematics aren't identical. And it's difficult to argue that - say - a VCA or a gain cell is a rights infringement.

I don't know what the situation is with the 2600 clone. I think technically Gibson owns the rights via Rhodes, who bought ARP. But the patents have expired, and I doubt there's anything actionable in a modern version of the schems.

It's interesting just how little legal action has happened in this area. Apparently it's enough to say your modular filter is *based on* the CS-80/etc and/or to give it a silly name, and the big co's lose interest.

Richard

> On 6 Oct 2013, at 08:37, "GGG" <ggg at fgi.lv> wrote:
> 
> Dear collegues,
>    There are lot of classical synth clones arround, available as DIY
> kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80 VCF, there are active
> discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT, about to be on sale.
>    I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths? What's a
> procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy to get a permissoin from
> producers , like Korg or Yamaha, just because of hudge scale of companies
> and beurocracy and Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of the clone
> adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is this still
> considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree of upgrades, one should
> add?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Girts
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Oct  6 12:56:21 2013
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:56:21 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
Message-ID: <525141D5.2000609@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

On 10/06/2013 12:18 PM, Richard Wentk wrote:
> I think Tom covered it. Adding extra features won't protect you from legal action, because key circuit features and techniques are patented, and your new features won't change that.
>
> But most vintage patents have expired now, and the lack of legal action suggests the big names don't really care about chasing down imitators. If nothing else it would be bad PR.
I expect there to be very few analogue design patents which is still
valid, meaning that they are not covered by patent. This is the trade
you do, you give up technical information on a design principle for a
limited monopoly right for making money in the market. When the limited
monopoly is gone, everyone can use it freely and moves the industry
knowledge forward. Do read the patents, as they are meant to be read and
applied.
> In any case, most new designs use modern components. So the schematics aren't identical. And it's difficult to argue that - say - a VCA or a gain cell is a rights infringement.
The different details of the schematic does not suffice to keep a design
from being an infrigment. That's why patents can be enforced when the
basic principle is as being described in the patent. Roland had to
change their filter for instance.
> I don't know what the situation is with the 2600 clone. I think technically Gibson owns the rights via Rhodes, who bought ARP. But the patents have expired, and I doubt there's anything actionable in a modern version of the schems.
>
> It's interesting just how little legal action has happened in this area. Apparently it's enough to say your modular filter is *based on* the CS-80/etc and/or to give it a silly name, and the big co's lose interest.
Even openly advertised and actively sold as such from large active
vendors works without retribution. Thing is, if it is sufficiently back
in the history, being cloned like that is really just free PR and no
significant loss of income.

The design itself is protected, as they have copyright to schematics and
layouts. This copyright is possible to avoid by not doing a direct copy.
Same circuit, but different schematics and layouts, no apparent
infrigment on trademarks and you should be safe. Reference to the
trademarks seems to work most of the time, but it's not necessary safe.

Cheers,
Magnus


From uzs159 at uni-bonn.de  Sun Oct  6 13:35:44 2013
From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 13:35:44 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>,
	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
	<DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <52514B10.4040503@uni-bonn.de>

Am 06.10.2013 01:14, schrieb Jack Jackson:
> So, if I understand correctly. Ill connect a potentiometer as a variable resistor between CAP and IN. +V, -V, and ground pins wired as normal.
>
> I'll take a DMM reading of voltage at CAP, and adjust the potentiometer until the voltages reads 0V. Then the impedance setting of the pot will mirror the internal resistor.
>
> Is that right? Or do I take a measurement elsewhere?

Thats the idea.

Cheers,
  Ren?


-- 
uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
http://www.schmitzbits.de/


From Stromeko at nexgo.de  Sun Oct  6 14:32:03 2013
From: Stromeko at nexgo.de (ASSI)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 14:32:03 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
	<D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <1431014.D5MnRISHNT@rainer.invalid>

On Sunday 06 October 2013, 10:59:07, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> For synths, the Moog filter is the most famous example
[...]

If you refer to US3,475,623 then the claims (which describe what is actually 
patented) never reference the ladder filter that's become known as the Moog 
ladder.  This enters the schematic shown in the patent and the accompanying 
description of how it workd into the state of the art with the date of the 
patent filing.  The actual independent claim is for using the dynamic 
resistance of the base-emitter diode as the voltage controllable resistive 
element of an RC filter.  Roland (and probably others) worked around that 
claim by using a plain diode instead of a transistor.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf Q+, Q and microQ:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds



From terry.shultz at iosono-sound.com  Sun Oct  6 15:48:22 2013
From: terry.shultz at iosono-sound.com (Terry Shultz)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 06:48:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
	<D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <5E01E0FA-B6CD-4DC9-BD67-49DD911469BA@iosono-sound.com>

FM patents were from Stanford Univ. / John Chowning and licensed to Yamaha .

Yamaha was one of the few that licensed rather than invent the IP.

Terry

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 6, 2013, at 2:59 AM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> 
> I've read around this topic a bit with respect to cloning of stomp boxes. Most of the famous old pedals are now available in any number of "boutique" versions. The position with clones seems to be based on what you *can* protect:
> 
> 1) Schematics can be copyrighted. You can't copy someone else's copyrighted schematic. Draw your own.
> 
> 2) Product and company names can be trademarked. You can't use "Roland Jupiter" for your new clone. Hence "xoxBox" and similar.
> 
> 3) Certain innovative aspects of a circuit could be patented. For stomp boxes this is extremely rare. For synths, the Moog filter is the most famous example, but Yamaha's FM patent would be another. But patents lapse eventually.
> 
> Since none of these three legal protections cover the actual circuit itself, it's very difficult to prevent anyone cloning your circuit. Since stomp boxes are simple enough to trace out the whole thing and measure values, this is exactly what happens. Synths are more complicated, and that provides some protection. The best protection of all is to include a custom chip/ASIC/FPGA or uP with custom software in the design. No-one has cloned the DX7's hardware, despite the patent having expired, although there are software clones that would infringe it if it were still acting.
> 
> So if you can copy the circuit, and there's no patent in force, and you don't use anyone's trademark, you can do it and no-one really has any legal recourse.
> 
> Of course, whether this is the *right* thing to do is a different discussion. In the case of long-dead products (particularly of long-dead manufacturers) I don't have a problem with it. If people start cloning my latest module idea whilst I'm still trying to sell it, I might feel rather differently.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom
> 
> 
>> On 6 Oct 2013, at 09:06, rsdio at sounds.wa.com wrote:
>> 
>> Girts,
>> 
>> I am no lawyer, but I think that the biggest problem would be using the trademarked names when referring to a clone. CS-80 and TR-909 might still be trademarked, even if any patents on the circuits have expired. And a clone company certainly cannot use names like Yamaha, Roland, or ARP to promote their product.
>> 
>> Of course, Moog sued ARP over the ladder filter, but I assume that any patent on the ladder VCF has now expired. It's tough finding all the patents, though.
>> 
>> Brian Willoughby
>> Sound Consulting
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 6, 2013, at 00:37, GGG wrote:
>>>    There are lot of classical synth clones arround, available as DIY
>>> kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80 VCF, there are active
>>> discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT, about to be on sale.
>>>    I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths? What's a
>>> procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy to get a permissoin from
>>> producers , like Korg or Yamaha, just because of hudge scale of companies
>>> and beurocracy and Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of the clone
>>> adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is this still
>>> considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree of upgrades, one should
>>> add?
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Oct  6 17:18:48 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 16:18:48 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>

This issue is of interest to me as I've been reverse engineering the Roland Jupiter 8 and building it with currently available components.?

Roland's slogan until recently was "We design the future." and I know they have a policy of never looking back, only forward when designing hardware. It could explain why they haven't bothered with re-releasing any of their considerably stockpile of historical synths.

I've seen people ask on Gearslutz and other forums why they haven't bothered, and how much it would actually cost to build a Jupiter 8 again.?
It depends on the setup.

The x0xb0x is a good model, where the hardware was open sourced and some people make a small profit building and selling them. This is what I would like to do, figure out the hardware and open source it and allow others to build or sell it.??I think it would be easier for a smaller company like MacBeth to do it, where there are not massive overheads or need to generate profit to cover them and shareholders.?But the main point is to make it freely available once more. Jupiter 8's fetch at least ?5000 in the UK, this is not a sum I could drop as a young married man for an instrument.?I could build or buy one for a few hundred pounds though.

In terms of components, some of the ICs are more established and available to the general public now, the microcontrollers and precision op-amps for example. I work with an engineer whose job it is to take PCB designs and prepare them to meet regulations and be manufactured. As we were desoldering some IR3109s from a Boss pedal, he told me the resistors were a lot more expensive in the early 80s and added a significant amount to the component cost, but now they are several on the penny. If one were to build them as normalised synths, it would be economical to do it in bulk to save cost on switches capacitors etc.



----------------------------------------
> From: ggg at fgi.lv
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:37:32 +0300
> Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
>
> Dear collegues,
> There are lot of classical synth clones arround, available as DIY
> kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80 VCF, there are active
> discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT, about to be on sale.
> I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths? What's a
> procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy to get a permissoin from
> producers , like Korg or Yamaha, just because of hudge scale of companies
> and beurocracy and Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of the clone
> adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is this still
> considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree of upgrades, one should
> add?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Girts
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Oct  6 17:34:57 2013
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 17:34:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <5E01E0FA-B6CD-4DC9-BD67-49DD911469BA@iosono-sound.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
	<D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
	<5E01E0FA-B6CD-4DC9-BD67-49DD911469BA@iosono-sound.com>
Message-ID: <52518321.7040002@rubidium.dyndns.org>

On 10/06/2013 03:48 PM, Terry Shultz wrote:
> FM patents were from Stanford Univ. / John Chowning and licensed to Yamaha .
>
> Yamaha was one of the few that licensed rather than invent the IP.
They did a "product patent" on the DX-7 as I recall it.

Cheers,
Magnus


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Sun Oct  6 17:56:25 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 08:56:25 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <52518321.7040002@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
	<D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
	<5E01E0FA-B6CD-4DC9-BD67-49DD911469BA@iosono-sound.com>
	<52518321.7040002@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3AB13D70-F757-4596-9817-0E1F438535B6@earthlink.net>

Hi Magnus,

You may be right on product patent. I was at e-mu when Stanford approached us on the ip.

We just didn't have the Capitol at e-mu to build it into chip at the time.  Funny how it all turns out.

Terry

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 6, 2013, at 8:34 AM, Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/06/2013 03:48 PM, Terry Shultz wrote:
>> FM patents were from Stanford Univ. / John Chowning and licensed to Yamaha .
>> 
>> Yamaha was one of the few that licensed rather than invent the IP.
> They did a "product patent" on the DX-7 as I recall it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sun Oct  6 17:58:56 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 08:58:56 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
Message-ID: <1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>

There are no legal issues of cloning, unless a) you use trademarked or
copyrighted materials in your design (like putting the company logo on the
panel) or b) there are elements under patent protection (unlikely, given
that patents are only good for 17 to 20 years from the priority date, which
will be long past for all this stuff).

Opposing viewpoints welcome! 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of GGG
> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 12:38 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
> 
> Dear collegues,
> 	There are lot of classical synth clones arround, 
> available as DIY kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80 
> VCF, there are active discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT, 
> about to be on sale.
> 	I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths? 
> What's a procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy 
> to get a permissoin from producers , like Korg or Yamaha, 
> just because of hudge scale of companies and beurocracy and 
> Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of the clone 
> adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is 
> this still considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree 
> of upgrades, one should add?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Girts
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Oct  6 18:00:55 2013
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 18:00:55 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <3AB13D70-F757-4596-9817-0E1F438535B6@earthlink.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
	<D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
	<5E01E0FA-B6CD-4DC9-BD67-49DD911469BA@iosono-sound.com>
	<52518321.7040002@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<3AB13D70-F757-4596-9817-0E1F438535B6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <52518937.9050006@rubidium.dyndns.org>

On 10/06/2013 05:56 PM, Terry Shultz wrote:
> Hi Magnus,
>
> You may be right on product patent. I was at e-mu when Stanford approached us on the ip.
>
> We just didn't have the Capitol at e-mu to build it into chip at the time.  Funny how it all turns out.
Ah, otherwise we all would have played those bitching FM-synths from e-mu :)

Cheers,
Magnus


From thx1138 at earthlink.net  Sun Oct  6 18:26:39 2013
From: thx1138 at earthlink.net (Terry Shultz)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 09:26:39 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <52518937.9050006@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
	<D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
	<5E01E0FA-B6CD-4DC9-BD67-49DD911469BA@iosono-sound.com>
	<52518321.7040002@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<3AB13D70-F757-4596-9817-0E1F438535B6@earthlink.net>
	<52518937.9050006@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <79DC895C-AF7E-490C-B073-E4E6B1A1CBCA@earthlink.net>

Hi Magnus,

As I remember, it still took Yamaha a good while to build to build a viable chip after licensing the ip.

Regards,

Terry

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/06/2013 05:56 PM, Terry Shultz wrote:
>> Hi Magnus,
>> 
>> You may be right on product patent. I was at e-mu when Stanford approached us on the ip.
>> 
>> We just didn't have the Capitol at e-mu to build it into chip at the time.  Funny how it all turns out.
> Ah, otherwise we all would have played those bitching FM-synths from e-mu :)
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Oct  6 18:34:08 2013
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 18:34:08 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <79DC895C-AF7E-490C-B073-E4E6B1A1CBCA@earthlink.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<48977327-E62B-4879-BC01-C9388F048490@sounds.wa.com>
	<D445D411-31C5-4709-9474-7BBBB9300E2E@electricdruid.net>
	<5E01E0FA-B6CD-4DC9-BD67-49DD911469BA@iosono-sound.com>
	<52518321.7040002@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<3AB13D70-F757-4596-9817-0E1F438535B6@earthlink.net>
	<52518937.9050006@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<79DC895C-AF7E-490C-B073-E4E6B1A1CBCA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <52519100.8060605@rubidium.dyndns.org>

On 10/06/2013 06:26 PM, Terry Shultz wrote:
> Hi Magnus,
>
> As I remember, it still took Yamaha a good while to build to build a viable chip after licensing the ip.
Sure. It takes time to do, and the tools where not as easy to work with.
Today you can prototype in FPGAs, sometime which has been increasingly
simple to do in the last 20 years I've been doing FPGA and ASIC stuff.

The Yamaha chip is simple by todays measure, but still a bit of
complexity to have respect for.

Cheers,
Magnus


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Oct  6 19:28:49 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 18:28:49 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <52514B10.4040503@uni-bonn.de>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>,
	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
	<DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl>,
	<52514B10.4040503@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W27C34CD8AE098EAD6686F797120@phx.gbl>

Hi Ren?,

I took the measurements as you suggested. I used a Bourns-3266 2K trimmer as a variable resistor. It was hard to get the cap voltage to sit at 0, as when I took my finger off the trimmer after adjusting it, it would jump up about 2mV. Eventually with it sitting at about +1mV, I took a reading of the potentiometer and it showed 432 ohms. So this would concur with what Bob Weigel said about them being in the 220 to 1K zone.?

I suppose to be more thorough, I should repeat the test on all 4 gain cells on both chips I have. One is date coded 777C and the other 775C, so it might give a decent enough range. For greater accuracy I could use a 500ohm trimmer, but I dont have any on hand.

Still 430 ohms sounds about right though.

Cheers,
Jack
----------------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:35:44 +0200
> From: uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
>
> Am 06.10.2013 01:14, schrieb Jack Jackson:
>> So, if I understand correctly. Ill connect a potentiometer as a variable resistor between CAP and IN. +V, -V, and ground pins wired as normal.
>>
>> I'll take a DMM reading of voltage at CAP, and adjust the potentiometer until the voltages reads 0V. Then the impedance setting of the pot will mirror the internal resistor.
>>
>> Is that right? Or do I take a measurement elsewhere?
>
> Thats the idea.
>
> Cheers,
> Ren?
>
>
> --
> uzs159 at uni-bonn.de
> http://www.schmitzbits.de/ 		 	   		  

From colin at colinfraser.com  Sun Oct  6 19:29:49 2013
From: colin at colinfraser.com (Colin f)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 18:29:49 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>

 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Jack Jackson
> Sent: 06 October 2013 16:19
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning

> Jupiter 8's fetch at least ?5000 in the UK, this is not a sum 
> I could drop as a young married man for an instrument.?I 
> could build or buy one for a few hundred pounds though.

No you couldn't.
Even if we allow a "few" to be 400 pounds, you'd be hard pushed to put an
enclosure, front panel controls and keyboard together for that, never mind
put any voices in it.

Cheers,
Colin f




From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Oct  6 19:41:18 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 18:41:18 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>,
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>,
	<4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W30D9427CD03C834FD75E4997120@phx.gbl>

Ok I see your point on production building, but in terms of building just for myself I've picked up two 2 43-key keybeds for ?10. Front panel controls are an issue, but buying in bulk, potentiometers should be around ?50. The case can be built from wood by me, not sure of the cost of that. Reichelt sells the correct coloured switches with the led mounted at the top. ok around ?100 squids for all of that. Then the voices...

:)


----------------------------------------
> From: colin at colinfraser.com
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 18:29:49 +0100
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Jack Jackson
>> Sent: 06 October 2013 16:19
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
>
>> Jupiter 8's fetch at least ?5000 in the UK, this is not a sum
>> I could drop as a young married man for an instrument. I
>> could build or buy one for a few hundred pounds though.
>
> No you couldn't.
> Even if we allow a "few" to be 400 pounds, you'd be hard pushed to put an
> enclosure, front panel controls and keyboard together for that, never mind
> put any voices in it.
>
> Cheers,
> Colin f
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sun Oct  6 20:08:58 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:08:58 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W30D9427CD03C834FD75E4997120@phx.gbl>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>,
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>,
	<4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>
	<DUB123-W30D9427CD03C834FD75E4997120@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <18EA93C3FAAB41BA89C64F00907AC5A4@galvanox01>

I've never looked under the hood of a Jupiter-8, but I have looked under the
hood of a CS-80.  Assuming they are similar, by the time you have figured
out how to get all that stuff working together and stuffed into the
enclosure, your wife will probably have wished you had just spent the money
on a real one.  There is like 50 lbs of just wire in that thing!

> Ok I see your point on production building, but in terms of 
> building just for myself I've picked up two 2 43-key keybeds 
> for ?10. Front panel controls are an issue, but buying in 
> bulk, potentiometers should be around ?50. The case can be 
> built from wood by me, not sure of the cost of that. Reichelt 
> sells the correct coloured switches with the led mounted at 
> the top. ok around ?100 squids for all of that. Then the voices...



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Oct  6 20:18:24 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:18:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <18EA93C3FAAB41BA89C64F00907AC5A4@galvanox01>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>,
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>,
	<4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>
	<DUB123-W30D9427CD03C834FD75E4997120@phx.gbl>,
	<18EA93C3FAAB41BA89C64F00907AC5A4@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W12EF93A5ADF0771EBA010D97120@phx.gbl>

Good point! It would be good to get some other people on board to spread the work and lower my risk of divorce!


----------------------------------------
> From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk; colin at colinfraser.com; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:08:58 -0700
>
> I've never looked under the hood of a Jupiter-8, but I have looked under the
> hood of a CS-80. Assuming they are similar, by the time you have figured
> out how to get all that stuff working together and stuffed into the
> enclosure, your wife will probably have wished you had just spent the money
> on a real one. There is like 50 lbs of just wire in that thing!
>
>> Ok I see your point on production building, but in terms of
>> building just for myself I've picked up two 2 43-key keybeds
>> for ?10. Front panel controls are an issue, but buying in
>> bulk, potentiometers should be around ?50. The case can be
>> built from wood by me, not sure of the cost of that. Reichelt
>> sells the correct coloured switches with the led mounted at
>> the top. ok around ?100 squids for all of that. Then the voices...
> 		 	   		  

From tom at electricdruid.net  Sun Oct  6 21:20:18 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 20:20:18 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <18EA93C3FAAB41BA89C64F00907AC5A4@galvanox01>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>,
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>,
	<4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>
	<DUB123-W30D9427CD03C834FD75E4997120@phx.gbl>
	<18EA93C3FAAB41BA89C64F00907AC5A4@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <6A256810-1584-4223-9A4C-02E5F265B9B4@electricdruid.net>

I agree with the broad point that you're making, David. But the two instruments aren't comparable. The Jupiter 8 is significantly later and benefits from the application of microprocessors. I believe I'm correct in saying that the CS80 doesn't have a uP inside. That accounts for a lot of the complexity and a significant amount of the wiring. It'd be possible to build a "functional" clone with a lot less wiring (e.g. a clone of the functionality, not the actual circuit or PCB layout). It'd probably be possible to reduce the circuitry of the Jupiter 8 to some extent too. Many synths from that era use (for example) external memory and external UARTs which would all be found on a modern uP.

Some people are more purist about it and like to go as far as copying the old PCBs, but for me, if it does the same, it is the same. I don't much care what's inside beyond getting it to sound right, and where voice assignment, memory, and MIDI handling are concerned, that isn't an issue.

I also agree with Colin. These things aren't cheap to do, even given these simplifications, although the hardware (keyboard, case, controls) is a major part of that and if you're willing to do more of that yourself there are savings to be had. Yes, you can probably build a Jupiter 8 for less than ?5000, but you won't be getting paid for any of the hundreds of hours you spend programming the firmware for the thing. If you add that in, ?5000 starts to seem like the quickest and cheapest way.

2 cents,
Tom


On 6 Oct 2013, at 19:08, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:

> I've never looked under the hood of a Jupiter-8, but I have looked under the
> hood of a CS-80.  Assuming they are similar, by the time you have figured
> out how to get all that stuff working together and stuffed into the
> enclosure, your wife will probably have wished you had just spent the money
> on a real one.  There is like 50 lbs of just wire in that thing!
> 
>> Ok I see your point on production building, but in terms of 
>> building just for myself I've picked up two 2 43-key keybeds 
>> for ?10. Front panel controls are an issue, but buying in 
>> bulk, potentiometers should be around ?50. The case can be 
>> built from wood by me, not sure of the cost of that. Reichelt 
>> sells the correct coloured switches with the led mounted at 
>> the top. ok around ?100 squids for all of that. Then the voices...
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From commodorejohn at gmail.com  Sun Oct  6 21:35:54 2013
From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 14:35:54 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <6A256810-1584-4223-9A4C-02E5F265B9B4@electricdruid.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>
	<4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>
	<DUB123-W30D9427CD03C834FD75E4997120@phx.gbl>
	<18EA93C3FAAB41BA89C64F00907AC5A4@galvanox01>
	<6A256810-1584-4223-9A4C-02E5F265B9B4@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CABCBCvPkpc89r4+1tLgQJ39Roiq+vKA7ZM7Aqw4sTV3Bs9_6MA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/13, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> Yes, you can probably build a Jupiter 8 for less than
> ?5000, but you won't be getting paid for any of the hundreds of hours you
> spend programming the firmware for the thing.
The firmware for something like the JP8 really shouldn't be that
complicated, even with MIDI support added in. It's not even like my
Matrix-6 where all the modulation is entirely digital and there's a
complex virtual patch-matrix to set up. Of course, it's still *work,*
but on the software side it should be entirely doable by one guy as a
hobby project. (No idea about the hardware, though - but if Jack ever
does come up with a solid Jupiter-8 clone, you can bet I'll be first
in line!)


From rainer at buchty.net  Sun Oct  6 21:57:09 2013
From: rainer at buchty.net (Rainer Buchty)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:57:09 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>

On Sun, 6 Oct 2013, Richard Wentk wrote:

> But most vintage patents have expired now, and the lack of legal 
> action suggests the big names don't really care about chasing down 
> imitators. If nothing else it would be bad PR.

That didn't keep Roland from shooting down a software clone of the MT-32 
(MT-32 Emulation Project) on the grounds of ROM copyrights (IIRC, the 
samples).

Rainer



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Oct  6 22:02:10 2013
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 22:02:10 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
Message-ID: <5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>

On 10/06/2013 09:57 PM, Rainer Buchty wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Oct 2013, Richard Wentk wrote:
>
>> But most vintage patents have expired now, and the lack of legal
>> action suggests the big names don't really care about chasing down
>> imitators. If nothing else it would be bad PR.
>
> That didn't keep Roland from shooting down a software clone of the
> MT-32 (MT-32 Emulation Project) on the grounds of ROM copyrights
> (IIRC, the samples).
Which is copyright issue, and a much longer time-out on that. Too long.

Cheers,
Magnus


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Oct  6 22:30:15 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:30:15 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] FW:  Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W5223DFED2CED468BC4907797120@phx.gbl>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>,
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>,
	<4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>,
	<DUB123-W30D9427CD03C834FD75E4997120@phx.gbl>,
	<18EA93C3FAAB41BA89C64F00907AC5A4@galvanox01>,
	<6A256810-1584-4223-9A4C-02E5F265B9B4@electricdruid.net>,
	<CABCBCvPkpc89r4+1tLgQJ39Roiq+vKA7ZM7Aqw4sTV3Bs9_6MA@mail.gmail.com>,
	<DUB123-W5223DFED2CED468BC4907797120@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W341BAECCCE8A24BC19E97997120@phx.gbl>

RE:MT-32. Didn't Roland fail with that because they hadn't registered copyright for the MT-32 PCM samples?

I've already cloned the VCO, waveshaping circuits, noise generator and vca (using LM13700s) with currently available components.?

The filter seems like the hardest part yet. Even with the IR3109s, although I've got LPF, and to an extent HPF working. I haven't succeeded with resonance so far.

In terms of the patch memory, I'm looking forward to get cracking with that. My day job is programming so it's not too daunting. Tom Wiltshire has done a lot of really awesome stuff using PICs, so that is quite encouraging and inspiring. It seems the JP8 achieved all the analogue voltages out of the microprocessor using one DAC a SI/PO shift register and a load of opamps as voltage followers. If I understand correctly the microprocessor cycles through all the outputs of the shift register and feeds each opamp the relevant voltage in turn. In Ray Wilsons book he mentions that voltage followers can hold a state for a few seconds before the voltage begins to drop off, so I'm not sure at what rate the shift register clocks through all the opamps, but could be once per second to several times a second.

If you want to take a listen, I've put some recordings up:
https://soundcloud.com/dot

Here's the thread about it on MuffWiggler:
http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1286357&sid=13de13fb6f6838abb251dffa61ec546b





----------------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 14:35:54 -0500
> From: commodorejohn at gmail.com
> To: tom at electricdruid.net
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
>
> On 10/6/13, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>> Yes, you can probably build a Jupiter 8 for less than
>> ?5000, but you won't be getting paid for any of the hundreds of hours you
>> spend programming the firmware for the thing.
> The firmware for something like the JP8 really shouldn't be that
> complicated, even with MIDI support added in. It's not even like my
> Matrix-6 where all the modulation is entirely digital and there's a
> complex virtual patch-matrix to set up. Of course, it's still *work,*
> but on the software side it should be entirely doable by one guy as a
> hobby project. (No idea about the hardware, though - but if Jack ever
> does come up with a solid Jupiter-8 clone, you can bet I'll be first
> in line!)
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From commodorejohn at gmail.com  Sun Oct  6 22:32:17 2013
From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 15:32:17 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>

Though Roland did back down on it after some protest. But yeah, you'd
have a lot less defensible position cloning a ROMpler or something.
But the only things on a pure synthesizer that should be protected
under copyright would be the firmware (clonable,) the manuals, and
maybe the art?

On 10/6/13, Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> On 10/06/2013 09:57 PM, Rainer Buchty wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Oct 2013, Richard Wentk wrote:
>>
>>> But most vintage patents have expired now, and the lack of legal
>>> action suggests the big names don't really care about chasing down
>>> imitators. If nothing else it would be bad PR.
>>
>> That didn't keep Roland from shooting down a software clone of the
>> MT-32 (MT-32 Emulation Project) on the grounds of ROM copyrights
>> (IIRC, the samples).
> Which is copyright issue, and a much longer time-out on that. Too long.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>


From richard at wentk.com  Mon Oct  7 00:21:24 2013
From: richard at wentk.com (Richard Wentk)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 23:21:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>
	<4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>
Message-ID: <20735B8E-168F-46B2-877D-684F9649BC09@wentk.com>

Software.

Arguably not a proper clone, but it's the sound of the hardware you want. These days you can do the rest with a cheap tablet.

Richard

> On 6 Oct 2013, at 18:29, "Colin f" <colin at colinfraser.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
>> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Jack Jackson
>> Sent: 06 October 2013 16:19
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
> 
>> Jupiter 8's fetch at least ?5000 in the UK, this is not a sum 
>> I could drop as a young married man for an instrument. I 
>> could build or buy one for a few hundred pounds though.
> 
> No you couldn't.
> Even if we allow a "few" to be 400 pounds, you'd be hard pushed to put an
> enclosure, front panel controls and keyboard together for that, never mind
> put any voices in it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Colin f
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tom at electricdruid.net  Mon Oct  7 00:27:56 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 23:27:56 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>

Also the PCB layouts. They're an image, and that's copyrightable. Or is that what you meant by "art"?

On 6 Oct 2013, at 21:32, John Ames <commodorejohn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Though Roland did back down on it after some protest. But yeah, you'd
> have a lot less defensible position cloning a ROMpler or something.
> But the only things on a pure synthesizer that should be protected
> under copyright would be the firmware (clonable,) the manuals, and
> maybe the art?
> 
> On 10/6/13, Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>> On 10/06/2013 09:57 PM, Rainer Buchty wrote:
>>> On Sun, 6 Oct 2013, Richard Wentk wrote:
>>> 
>>>> But most vintage patents have expired now, and the lack of legal
>>>> action suggests the big names don't really care about chasing down
>>>> imitators. If nothing else it would be bad PR.
>>> 
>>> That didn't keep Roland from shooting down a software clone of the
>>> MT-32 (MT-32 Emulation Project) on the grounds of ROM copyrights
>>> (IIRC, the samples).
>> Which is copyright issue, and a much longer time-out on that. Too long.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From rsdio at sounds.wa.com  Mon Oct  7 01:32:51 2013
From: rsdio at sounds.wa.com (rsdio at sounds.wa.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 16:32:51 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W341BAECCCE8A24BC19E97997120@phx.gbl>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>,
	<DUB123-W186E020D49A4E2DDCC79E297120@phx.gbl>,
	<4F92A2621F104ADF9A9CF80F78C6993E@c57d>,
	<DUB123-W30D9427CD03C834FD75E4997120@phx.gbl>,
	<18EA93C3FAAB41BA89C64F00907AC5A4@galvanox01>,
	<6A256810-1584-4223-9A4C-02E5F265B9B4@electricdruid.net>,
	<CABCBCvPkpc89r4+1tLgQJ39Roiq+vKA7ZM7Aqw4sTV3Bs9_6MA@mail.gmail.com>,
	<DUB123-W5223DFED2CED468BC4907797120@phx.gbl>
	<DUB123-W341BAECCCE8A24BC19E97997120@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAB6971C-25B4-4E5C-A390-472DCCEEBB2C@sounds.wa.com>

Those circuits may look like simple voltage followers, but there's  
more to it than just that. They're actually sample-and-hold circuits,  
and the difference is an isolated capacitor on each input to hold the  
voltage. The critical piece is the capacitor that holds the voltage,  
and the follower is just there to provide as much current as is  
necessary to buffer that voltage into an arbitrary load without  
draining any (at least not much) current from the capacitor.

With an analog switch that goes into very high impedance when it is  
off, and an op-amp input that is also high impedance, those  
capacitors will drain very slowly. Just determine the amount of time  
that you need to hold, then adjust the capacitance to be large enough  
to not droop too much during the necessary time. You don't want the  
capacitance to be any higher than the minimum needed, though, because  
that increases the time needed to charge to each new voltage. An  
analog multiplexer is a great for this, because it's basically a set  
of analog switches where the common input can be connected to the  
DAC, and each individual output connects to a S&H channel (capacitor  
and op-amp voltage follower). The best choice is the CMOS 4067, which  
has 16 channels and costs less than two 8-channel mux chips.

The serial-to-parallel shift register is a red herring. You can  
design a multichannel CV generator without that particular part. If  
your processor has a lot of parallel I/O ports, then the SI/PO is not  
needed. The absolute essentials are the DAC, mux, caps, and op-amps.  
You want to select JFET input op-amps with 1 teraohm to 10 teraohm  
input impedance to make the hold as long as possible given the  
capacitance chosen.

The PIC is a fine choice, but so is the AVR, MSP-430, and a few  
others. I'd pick a part based more on cost and I/O capabilities than  
on which family it belongs to. I have nothing against the PIC, since  
I've designed several products with it, but I also don't think  
there's anything special about it for the task of cloning a vintage  
synth that might have a 6502, 6809, Z-80, D7811G, 8049, 8051, or  
other 8-bit micro from that era.

Brian Willoughby
Sound Consulting


On Oct 6, 2013, at 13:30, Jack Jackson wrote:
> In terms of the patch memory, I'm looking forward to get cracking  
> with that. My day job is programming so it's not too daunting. Tom  
> Wiltshire has done a lot of really awesome stuff using PICs, so  
> that is quite encouraging and inspiring. It seems the JP8 achieved  
> all the analogue voltages out of the microprocessor using one DAC a  
> SI/PO shift register and a load of opamps as voltage followers. If  
> I understand correctly the microprocessor cycles through all the  
> outputs of the shift register and feeds each opamp the relevant  
> voltage in turn. In Ray Wilsons book he mentions that voltage  
> followers can hold a state for a few seconds before the voltage  
> begins to drop off, so I'm not sure at what rate the shift register  
> clocks through all the opamps, but could be once per second to  
> several times a second.




From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Mon Oct  7 02:12:10 2013
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 17:12:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] What happened to Hellpope Huey
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1310061710310.16697@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>


Does anyone here know what happened to Hellpope Huey?  He popped up on 
various synthesizer forums with lots of surreal stuff.  I can't seem to 
find him anymore.  Is he okay?

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu


From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 03:58:33 2013
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:58:33 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/13, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> Also the PCB layouts. They're an image, and that's copyrightable. Or is that
> what you meant by "art"?

Not very good protection.  Mackie copyrighted the PCB artwork on their
mixers and Behringer blatantly copied it.  When Mackie sought legal
resolution, the courts ruled for Behringer despite IP applied to PCB
artwork.

But when Behringer tried to clone Boss guitar pedals that resembled
Boss pedals, they were forced to change the casing under legal threat
from Roland citing violation of trade redress and trademark confusion.

There is better IP protection on the outward appearance of a product
(IE Fender and Gibson have trademarked the shape of their guitar
headstocks) and circuit architecture (IE Moog ladder circuit, ARP
tempco for expo converters) then there is on PC boards.

For this reason, many designers resort to either encasing critical
components in epoxy or sanding off markings on the ICs.

MC


From synth1 at airmail.net  Mon Oct  7 04:18:25 2013
From: synth1 at airmail.net (Paul Schreiber)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:18:25 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>


For this reason, many designers resort to either encasing critical
components in epoxy or sanding off markings on the ICs.

This slows me down for about 2 minutes. So, don't even bother.

Paul S.




From ijfritz at comcast.net  Mon Oct  7 04:34:07 2013
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 20:34:07 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>

Cloning is for sheep.



From tokalo at videotron.ca  Mon Oct  7 06:32:22 2013
From: tokalo at videotron.ca (Tony Kalomiris)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 00:32:22 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>


On 2013-10-06, at 10:34 PM, Ian Fritz wrote:

> Cloning is for sheep.
> 


Cloning for profit. Yes, let's stop encouraging this practice and get back to the true spirit of diy and experimenting.



Tony K


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Mon Oct  7 06:48:30 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:48:30 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv><D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost><5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org><CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com><757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net><CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com><006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net><6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>
	<D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>

> > Cloning is for sheep.

> Cloning for profit. Yes, let's stop encouraging this practice 
> and get back to the true spirit of diy and experimenting.

While I mostly agree (and I've never had the desire to clone anything), I
think it can be very useful in two ways:
1.  It makes certain rare items available again (such as the new ARP 2600
clone project, which I plan to build)
2.  It is a useful learning exercise for those new to synth DIY (and for
some old to it as well).



From commodorejohn at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 08:30:45 2013
From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 01:30:45 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>
	<D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>
	<4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CABCBCvPYq4=-WW7pmoNvRNsHOVEUyfH5ZSy5AKZ_zx+-kPNFrg@mail.gmail.com>

It'd certainly be a whole lot more accessible for *me* to DIY a good
JP8 clone (if such a kit were to be made available) than to save the
$3-5K for the original, that's for sure.

On 10/6/13, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> > Cloning is for sheep.
>
>> Cloning for profit. Yes, let's stop encouraging this practice
>> and get back to the true spirit of diy and experimenting.
>
> While I mostly agree (and I've never had the desire to clone anything), I
> think it can be very useful in two ways:
> 1.  It makes certain rare items available again (such as the new ARP 2600
> clone project, which I plan to build)
> 2.  It is a useful learning exercise for those new to synth DIY (and for
> some old to it as well).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>


From andyr at atlanticheights.co.uk  Mon Oct  7 09:16:31 2013
From: andyr at atlanticheights.co.uk (Andy Robins)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:16:31 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <CABCBCvPYq4=-WW7pmoNvRNsHOVEUyfH5ZSy5AKZ_zx+-kPNFrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>
	<D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>
	<4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>
	<CABCBCvPYq4=-WW7pmoNvRNsHOVEUyfH5ZSy5AKZ_zx+-kPNFrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>

Due to the ridiculous prices that ARP 2600's are going for theses days, I built my own clone and added full VCO's with sync for under ?1k

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arp2600clone/sets/72157635156301330/

The TTSH project started about the same time as I was planning mine, but I didn't really want a mini version that was locked onto a single PCB.

I don't have a problem in cloning a desirable synth for my own use? but I'm not sure about the commercial kit aspect of it, if permission hasn't been legally secured.




On 7 Oct 2013, at 07:30, John Ames <commodorejohn at gmail.com> wrote:

> It'd certainly be a whole lot more accessible for *me* to DIY a good
> JP8 clone (if such a kit were to be made available) than to save the
> $3-5K for the original, that's for sure.
> 
> On 10/6/13, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>>> Cloning is for sheep.
>> 
>>> Cloning for profit. Yes, let's stop encouraging this practice
>>> and get back to the true spirit of diy and experimenting.
>> 
>> While I mostly agree (and I've never had the desire to clone anything), I
>> think it can be very useful in two ways:
>> 1.  It makes certain rare items available again (such as the new ARP 2600
>> clone project, which I plan to build)
>> 2.  It is a useful learning exercise for those new to synth DIY (and for
>> some old to it as well).
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From paul at fitvideo.co.uk  Mon Oct  7 09:50:38 2013
From: paul at fitvideo.co.uk (Paul Burns (Fitvideo))
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:50:38 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>	<6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>	<D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>	<4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>	<CABCBCvPYq4=-WW7pmoNvRNsHOVEUyfH5ZSy5AKZ_zx+-kPNFrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000b01cec331$e9d642b0$bd82c810$@fitvideo.co.uk>

That's bloody gorgeous.

regards

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Andy Robins
Sent: 07 October 2013 08:17
To: John Ames
Cc: Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning

Due to the ridiculous prices that ARP 2600's are going for theses days, I
built my own clone and added full VCO's with sync for under ?1k

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arp2600clone/sets/72157635156301330/

The TTSH project started about the same time as I was planning mine, but I
didn't really want a mini version that was locked onto a single PCB.

I don't have a problem in cloning a desirable synth for my own use
 but I'm
not sure about the commercial kit aspect of it, if permission hasn't been
legally secured.




On 7 Oct 2013, at 07:30, John Ames <commodorejohn at gmail.com> wrote:

> It'd certainly be a whole lot more accessible for *me* to DIY a good
> JP8 clone (if such a kit were to be made available) than to save the 
> $3-5K for the original, that's for sure.
> 
> On 10/6/13, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>>> Cloning is for sheep.
>> 
>>> Cloning for profit. Yes, let's stop encouraging this practice and 
>>> get back to the true spirit of diy and experimenting.
>> 
>> While I mostly agree (and I've never had the desire to clone 
>> anything), I think it can be very useful in two ways:
>> 1.  It makes certain rare items available again (such as the new ARP 
>> 2600 clone project, which I plan to build) 2.  It is a useful 
>> learning exercise for those new to synth DIY (and for some old to it 
>> as well).
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Mon Oct  7 09:54:41 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 01:54:41 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] What happened to Hellpope Huey
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1310061710310.16697@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1310061710310.16697@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <525268C1.7010906@imt.net>

On 10/6/2013 6:12 PM, David Griffith wrote:
>
> Does anyone here know what happened to Hellpope Huey?  He popped up on 
> various synthesizer forums with lots of surreal stuff.  I can't seem 
> to find him anymore.  Is he okay?
>
Yeah he and Mike Metlay and a few others were some of the guys in the 
early days of rec.music.makers.synth which originally didn't have the 
makers in it as I recall :-)   I don't know... hope so

-- 
Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
articles that could help make your eternity!



From ggg at fgi.lv  Mon Oct  7 10:02:48 2013
From: ggg at fgi.lv (GGG)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:02:48 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <000b01cec331$e9d642b0$bd82c810$@fitvideo.co.uk>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>	<6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>	<D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>	<4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>	<CABCBCvPYq4=-WW7pmoNvRNsHOVEUyfH5ZSy5AKZ_zx+-kPNFrg@mail.gmail.com>	<5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
	<000b01cec331$e9d642b0$bd82c810$@fitvideo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000001cec333$9d67ff70$d837fe50$@fgi.lv>

It is impressive!

Also interesting how extensive this discussion went :) Thanx for comments
and opinions!

Girts

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Paul Burns
(Fitvideo)
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 10:51 AM
To: 'Andy Robins'; 'John Ames'
Cc: 'Synth DIY'
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning

That's bloody gorgeous.

regards

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Andy Robins
Sent: 07 October 2013 08:17
To: John Ames
Cc: Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning

Due to the ridiculous prices that ARP 2600's are going for theses days, I
built my own clone and added full VCO's with sync for under ?1k

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arp2600clone/sets/72157635156301330/

The TTSH project started about the same time as I was planning mine, but I
didn't really want a mini version that was locked onto a single PCB.

I don't have a problem in cloning a desirable synth for my own use? but I'm
not sure about the commercial kit aspect of it, if permission hasn't been
legally secured.




On 7 Oct 2013, at 07:30, John Ames <commodorejohn at gmail.com> wrote:

> It'd certainly be a whole lot more accessible for *me* to DIY a good
> JP8 clone (if such a kit were to be made available) than to save the 
> $3-5K for the original, that's for sure.
> 
> On 10/6/13, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>>> Cloning is for sheep.
>> 
>>> Cloning for profit. Yes, let's stop encouraging this practice and 
>>> get back to the true spirit of diy and experimenting.
>> 
>> While I mostly agree (and I've never had the desire to clone 
>> anything), I think it can be very useful in two ways:
>> 1.  It makes certain rare items available again (such as the new ARP
>> 2600 clone project, which I plan to build) 2.  It is a useful 
>> learning exercise for those new to synth DIY (and for some old to it 
>> as well).
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From oldcrow at oldcrows.net  Mon Oct  7 10:18:19 2013
From: oldcrow at oldcrows.net (The Old Crow)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 03:18:19 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>
	<D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>
	<4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>
	<CABCBCvPYq4=-WW7pmoNvRNsHOVEUyfH5ZSy5AKZ_zx+-kPNFrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
Message-ID: <52526E4B.4010407@oldcrows.net>

   Well, since I did the crOwBX over the summer, I suppose I should 
address this issue myself.

   To me, a clone is a direct copy of a something.  The biological 
example being identical twins.  What I wanted was not a clone of the OBX 
in construction, look and feel but enough of a functional equivalent so 
as to in this case obtain the vintage OBX sound.  To that end, I had to 
make a number of design choices.  It did not need to be a 
programmable-preset machine.  It did not need to be in a stage keyboard 
enclosure. It did not need a CPU to oversee system operation.  CEM3310s 
were not going to be a viable solution for the EGs, so I crafted my own 
based on canonical ADSR designs along with the CEM3310's design basis as 
well described and implemented by JH in his VCHADSR project.  While 
CA3080s are out there again thanks to Rochester Electronics, I decided 
as Oberheim matched 3080s for the voice cards it would make sense to use 
the LM13600/700 as they're intrinsically die-matched.  I changed the 
discrete SEM-style VCOs to use better expo converters.

   In the end, a crOwBX voice card is about half "stock" and half new 
stuff.  I say "stock" because even the original OBX stuff needs some 
parts substitutions making it new old stock ;)  I also make no secret of 
where design ideas come from: I credit Tom Wiltshire for his noise 
generator PIC, JH for his VCHADSR notes, etc. in my schematics. Never 
mind Tom Oberheim who gets his own link  on the crowbx site.  Whatever 
"cleverness" I claim for myself, such as it is, is mainly in the 
squashing of the card form factor into a 10-board assembly that fits 
behind a 5U x 6U panel while still keeping the voice cards OBX 
retrofit-compatible.

   What I got in the end is what I wanted: a fully manual 4-voice 
SEM-style OBX sound before everything went all CEM chips.  I have no 
desire to commercially manufacture such a thing as it took me 4 months 
to craft *one* and with the man-hours either hired or invested 
myself---I can see why they cost $5500 in 1979.  I'll offer boards for 
DIY types, and that is about it.

   --Crow

   (For those who are asking "what the heck is the crOwBX" ... 
http://www.cs80.com/crowbx/ ;)

/**/



From niroke at tampabay.rr.com  Mon Oct  7 11:51:17 2013
From: niroke at tampabay.rr.com (Nicholas Keller)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 05:51:17 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>
	<D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>
	<4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>
	<CABCBCvPYq4=-WW7pmoNvRNsHOVEUyfH5ZSy5AKZ_zx+-kPNFrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C5AB654E-7738-48ED-97CF-E0B76F7248AA@tampabay.rr.com>

Wow.  Beautiful job.   I'll be building a TTSH but will always be jealous of your VCO outs.  

Based on my browsing of the 2600 service manual, it looks like a delight to "clone".   

Nick



> On Oct 7, 2013, at 3:16 AM, Andy Robins <andyr at atlanticheights.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Due to the ridiculous prices that ARP 2600's are going for theses days, I built my own clone and added full VCO's with sync for under ?1k
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/arp2600clone/sets/72157635156301330/
> 
> The TTSH project started about the same time as I was planning mine, but I didn't really want a mini version that was locked onto a single PCB.
> 
> I don't have a problem in cloning a desirable synth for my own use? but I'm not sure about the commercial kit aspect of it, if permission hasn't been legally secured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7 Oct 2013, at 07:30, John Ames <commodorejohn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It'd certainly be a whole lot more accessible for *me* to DIY a good
>> JP8 clone (if such a kit were to be made available) than to save the
>> $3-5K for the original, that's for sure.
>> 
>> On 10/6/13, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>>>> Cloning is for sheep.
>>> 
>>>> Cloning for profit. Yes, let's stop encouraging this practice
>>>> and get back to the true spirit of diy and experimenting.
>>> 
>>> While I mostly agree (and I've never had the desire to clone anything), I
>>> think it can be very useful in two ways:
>>> 1.  It makes certain rare items available again (such as the new ARP 2600
>>> clone project, which I plan to build)
>>> 2.  It is a useful learning exercise for those new to synth DIY (and for
>>> some old to it as well).
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Oct  7 13:28:40 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 12:28:40 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W1043F9BA568C4BF0AE146997130@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>, ,
	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>,
	<DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl>,
	<5251F4FE.1060809@imt.net>,
	<DUB123-W1043F9BA568C4BF0AE146997130@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W106CDC1921E6FEF0F1AF4297130@phx.gbl>

Yes, that's correct. Where did you get the 560 Ohm figure? I realise my tests were perhaps invalid because I forgot to apply a voltage to the CV. Will try again tonight.

Jack


> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 17:40:46 -0600
> From: sounddoctorin at imt.net
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
> 
> Did I understand correct that you want the value of the resistance 
> hooked from non-invert of the OTA's in the IR3109 to ground? 560 ohm is 
> the value I believe. Not sure if you saw my post
> 
> 
> -- 
> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
> articles that could help make your eternity!
> 		 	   		  

From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Mon Oct  7 17:39:45 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 17:39:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <525141D5.2000609@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<525141D5.2000609@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5252D5C1.6090505@mnet-online.de>

Hello

 > Roland had to change their filter for instance.


Do we really know that roland had to do so? Or maybe Roland wasn't keen 
any longer to pay the patent fees?

The history of the filters is quite interesting:

The SH-1000 started in 1973 with the diode ladder filter.
In 1974 came the SH-3 still with the diode ladder filter,
then the SH-2000 with the moog filter and
then the SH-3a with the moog filter too.
Then SH-2000 then changed with serialnumber 578050 to the transistor 
-as-diode-ladder filter, which they used later in the System 100, the 
SH-5 and in the 303. I don't know it, but I assume this happened in 
1975. They did not change the SH-3a again, because it did not sell that 
well. Instead they came up with the SH-5

I doubt, that they decided to infringe the patent, after having produced 
already two synths with a non patente depending circuits.

I more assume, that they started the with the Moog filter, payed the 
patent fees to Moog. But than they decided, that the difference is not 
that big, that it would have been worth the fees.

Florian




From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Mon Oct  7 21:22:35 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 12:22:35 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Musical Applications of Microprocessors 2ed, Chamberlin,
	H (1987)
Message-ID: <20131007122235.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.573042ee5c.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>


Hi,

Does anyone know if this was ever released to the public as a PDF?

Thanks,
GB


From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Mon Oct  7 21:24:56 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 12:24:56 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
Message-ID: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>

Hi,

Does anyone know of a USB DAC that allows for DC at the output? I'm not
using it for CV, per se, but something like that should work. Something
available in the US would be great, and not too expensive. Does not need
to be audiophile ;-)

GB



From jdec at mindspring.com  Mon Oct  7 21:26:38 2013
From: jdec at mindspring.com (BrightBoy)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:26:38 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [sdiy] Musical Applications of Microprocessors 2ed, Chamberlin,
	H (1987)
Message-ID: <32852607.1381173998827.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I've still got unread/new-old-stock, 2nd edition, hardcover copies of the 
book for sale ($50USD + shipping)

Contact me if interested.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
>From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
>Sent: Oct 7, 2013 3:22 PM
>To: s diy <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
>Subject: [sdiy] Musical Applications of Microprocessors 2ed, Chamberlin,	H (1987)
>
>
>Hi,
>
>Does anyone know if this was ever released to the public as a PDF?
>
>Thanks,
>GB
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy





From nitro2k01 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 21:35:12 2013
From: nitro2k01 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?T3ZlIFJpZMOp?=)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 21:35:12 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <CABacs=Dy43cR_-F+cRTdi2TNJZgJFaqxoY-tV183oUmhWfH_gQ@mail.gmail.com>

Many of MOTU's interfaces are DC coupled. Expert Sleepers has a handy list:

http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/siwacompatibility.html

On 7 October 2013 21:24,  <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know of a USB DAC that allows for DC at the output? I'm not
> using it for CV, per se, but something like that should work. Something
> available in the US would be great, and not too expensive. Does not need
> to be audiophile ;-)
>
> GB
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
/Ove

Blog: <http://blog.gg8.se/>

"Here is Evergreen City. Evergreen? is the color of green forever."


From roglok at hyperground.de  Mon Oct  7 21:35:48 2013
From: roglok at hyperground.de (roglok)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 21:35:48 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <534F5E24-CAD0-4B79-968E-6F9E909AA5F8@hyperground.de>

if you scroll down a bit on this page you'll find a list of DC capable audio interfaces:
http://www.rv0.be/sync-unit/legacy/sync-unit-dc

On 07.10.2013, at 21:24, <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone know of a USB DAC that allows for DC at the output? I'm not
> using it for CV, per se, but something like that should work. Something
> available in the US would be great, and not too expensive. Does not need
> to be audiophile ;-)
> 
> GB
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From tokalo at videotron.ca  Mon Oct  7 21:53:00 2013
From: tokalo at videotron.ca (Tony Kalomiris)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 15:53:00 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1310062151030.4359@localhost>
	<5251C1C2.40101@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<CABCBCvOZvKO_CV6OdfPesGgYw0K+rfkuY1Ejeq03yKJVDJnw-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<757576C0-EF70-4F0C-A882-7A283293AEBD@electricdruid.net>
	<CAAv6=UBeCO9g=5pu2wxWrCQ-ekEvCuLs9T0JsLfmo=ccNQyKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<006601cec303$817c7aa0$84756fe0$@airmail.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131006203249.04de4b78@mail.comcast.net>
	<D48FB9BA-7C3B-4DB1-9E61-353B95AD2441@videotron.ca>
	<4415C41F73EC4662861430E06FFCEAE0@galvanox01>
	<CABCBCvPYq4=-WW7pmoNvRNsHOVEUyfH5ZSy5AKZ_zx+-kPNFrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5D0EE002-F71A-4043-8D0D-5F074921B2A1@atlanticheights.co.uk>
Message-ID: <54F4078C-7609-45FE-960F-B36E9A0E141E@videotron.ca>

I must congratulate you for that gorgeous version of the 2600.
Ok I want to build one now ! hehe

Tony K


On 2013-10-07, at 3:16 AM, Andy Robins wrote:

> Due to the ridiculous prices that ARP 2600's are going for theses days, I built my own clone and added full VCO's with sync for under ?1k
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/arp2600clone/sets/72157635156301330/
> 



From Peter.Ullrich at kapsch.net  Mon Oct  7 22:23:33 2013
From: Peter.Ullrich at kapsch.net (Ullrich Peter)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 20:23:33 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <8BF8151491B683469DBE3534B77A7286B43CD4@S900X027.kapsch.co.at>


The simple USB sound sticks (about 10$ or even cheaper when bought in China) can normally be modified (output capacitor removed) for DC output!

something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/externe-USB-Soundkarte-5-1-Virtual-Surround-Sound-extern-fuer-DJ-Mic-VOIP-Headset-/170876269452

Ciao
Peter
________________________________________
Von: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl [synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl]&quot; im Auftrag von &quot;grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com [grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 07. Oktober 2013 21:24
An: s diy
Betreff: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC

Hi,

Does anyone know of a USB DAC that allows for DC at the output? I'm not
using it for CV, per se, but something like that should work. Something
available in the US would be great, and not too expensive. Does not need
to be audiophile ;-)

GB

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail immediately.



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 00:06:00 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 23:06:00 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W106CDC1921E6FEF0F1AF4297130@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>,
	, , <52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>, ,
	<DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl>, ,
	<5251F4FE.1060809@imt.net>, ,
	<DUB123-W1043F9BA568C4BF0AE146997130@phx.gbl>,
	<DUB123-W106CDC1921E6FEF0F1AF4297130@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W407EAE41114AF09BCDBC1597130@phx.gbl>

I built up half of the IR3109 schematic using 470ohms for the internal resistors. It made a pretty tasty filter and sounded very much like IR3109. I used the external capacitor and resistor values from the Jupiter 8 schematic. Unsurprisingly I implemented it with a LM13700 for the gain cells, TL072 for the two buffers instead of the 13700s internal buffers, and used the standard Thomas Henry current source expo converter made with another TL072

Here it is:
https://soundcloud.com/dot/ir3109-12db-ota-build

Compare to my recording of the real IR3109:
https://soundcloud.com/dot/ir3109-jupiter-filter-made



> From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 12:28:40 +0100
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
> 
> Yes, that's correct. Where did you get the 560 Ohm figure? I realise my tests were perhaps invalid because I forgot to apply a voltage to the CV. Will try again tonight.
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
>> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 17:40:46 -0600
>> From: sounddoctorin at imt.net
>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
>> 
>> Did I understand correct that you want the value of the resistance 
>> hooked from non-invert of the OTA's in the IR3109 to ground? 560 ohm is 
>> the value I believe. Not sure if you saw my post
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Check out sounddoctorin.com for songs, a studio tour, help
>> repairing old synthesizers and parts or thought provoking
>> articles that could help make your eternity!
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From cheater00 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 09:42:03 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 09:42:03 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Help deducing the internal resistor values of the IR3109?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W407EAE41114AF09BCDBC1597130@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W1328AF288B381A4904DB0597110@phx.gbl>
	<52504F0F.8030800@uni-bonn.de>
	<DUB123-W98577AD44CB8957B6B03E97110@phx.gbl> <5251F4FE.1060809@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W1043F9BA568C4BF0AE146997130@phx.gbl>
	<DUB123-W106CDC1921E6FEF0F1AF4297130@phx.gbl>
	<DUB123-W407EAE41114AF09BCDBC1597130@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgPpYmMWf6Ebc6kKkrZUz+ivsiqT9MdKjMHGUsQSV8Aqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:06 AM, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> I built up half of the IR3109 schematic using 470ohms for the internal resistors. It made a pretty tasty filter and sounded very much like IR3109. I used the external capacitor and resistor values from the Jupiter 8 schematic. Unsurprisingly I implemented it with a LM13700 for the gain cells, TL072 for the two buffers instead of the 13700s internal buffers, and used the standard Thomas Henry current source expo converter made with another TL072
>
> Here it is:
> https://soundcloud.com/dot/ir3109-12db-ota-build
>
> Compare to my recording of the real IR3109:
> https://soundcloud.com/dot/ir3109-jupiter-filter-made

Sounds great. How are you on resonance stability?

Cheers,
D.


From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Tue Oct  8 11:48:06 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 11:48:06 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
Message-ID: <5253D4D6.6090408@mnet-online.de>

Hello,

can someone tell me, when the CA3080 was published?

Florian
-- 
http://fa.utfs.org/


From carsten at analog-monster.de  Tue Oct  8 11:58:49 2013
From: carsten at analog-monster.de (Carsten Toensmann)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 11:58:49 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
In-Reply-To: <5253D4D6.6090408@mnet-online.de>
References: <5253D4D6.6090408@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>

1969 by RCA (Wikipedia)

Carsten

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- 
From: Florian Anwander
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 11:48 AM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?

Hello,

can someone tell me, when the CA3080 was published?

Florian
-- 
http://fa.utfs.org/
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 12:17:52 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 11:17:52 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
In-Reply-To: <F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>
References: <5253D4D6.6090408@mnet-online.de>,
	<F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W44089FBB5EA3C52C625EFD971C0@phx.gbl>

1969 - Otherwise known as the summer of transconductance amplification.

> From: carsten at analog-monster.de
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 11:58:49 +0200
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
> 
> 1969 by RCA (Wikipedia)
> 
> Carsten
> 
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- 
> From: Florian Anwander
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 11:48 AM
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
> 
> Hello,
> 
> can someone tell me, when the CA3080 was published?
> 
> Florian
> -- 
> http://fa.utfs.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Tue Oct  8 12:25:29 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:25:29 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
In-Reply-To: <F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>
References: <5253D4D6.6090408@mnet-online.de>
	<F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>
Message-ID: <5253DD99.4070609@mnet-online.de>

Hello Carsten

On 08.10.13 11:58 , Carsten Toensmann wrote:
> 1969 by RCA (Wikipedia)
Thank you! I should have known, that one might look for that at 
wikipedia....

Can some of you imagine, why there was no synth filter until the State 
Variable Filter in the Oberheim SEM in 1974, which was based on the 
OTAs? Or were there some earlier OTA filters in Synths?

Florian


From chris at chrismusic.de  Tue Oct  8 12:46:12 2013
From: chris at chrismusic.de (ChristianH)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:46:12 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
In-Reply-To: <5253DD99.4070609@mnet-online.de>
References: <F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>
	<5253DD99.4070609@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <20131008123619.FC96.CHRIS@chrismusic.de>

My guess would be that the chip was prohibitively expensive back then,
and it was more economical to do discrete circuits.
Those were the days...

Unbelievable from today's view, but I know one computer keyboard from
that era where key matrix encoding was done with mechanical levers and a
belt, driven from the PSU fan - and (coming from mechanical calculating
machines) that probably was the more reasonable way, instead of using
those costly semiconductor diodes.

Chris



On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:25:29 +0200 Florian Anwander
<fanwander at mnet-online.de> wrote:

> Hello Carsten
> 
> On 08.10.13 11:58 , Carsten Toensmann wrote:
> > 1969 by RCA (Wikipedia)
> Thank you! I should have known, that one might look for that at 
> wikipedia....
> 
> Can some of you imagine, why there was no synth filter until the State 
> Variable Filter in the Oberheim SEM in 1974, which was based on the 
> OTAs? Or were there some earlier OTA filters in Synths?
> 
> Florian



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 13:02:14 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:02:14 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <313d3d8115f5665eaf395e813524a65e@richieburnett.co.uk>

National Instruments do a range of USB data acquisition products.  Try 
searching for "NI DAQ"

The USB6009 for instance is quite cheap and has eight single-ended (or 4 
differential) 13-bit inputs, and two 12-bit outputs.  There are likely 
to be other products that have better output spec if that's what you're 
looking for, so check through the product range.  The DC specification 
of a proper instrumentation grade DAC will be far better than an audio 
CODEC bodged to work down to DC!

-Richie,

On 2013-10-07 20:24, grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone know of a USB DAC that allows for DC at the output? I'm not
> using it for CV, per se, but something like that should work. Something
> available in the US would be great, and not too expensive. Does not 
> need
> to be audiophile ;-)
> 
> GB
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From nitro2k01 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 13:40:51 2013
From: nitro2k01 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?T3ZlIFJpZMOp?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:40:51 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <313d3d8115f5665eaf395e813524a65e@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
	<313d3d8115f5665eaf395e813524a65e@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CABacs=C8X99dnxiVBYQ_McchrVUVhKCPi1iiYXW1W8riaEFy=A@mail.gmail.com>

Richie, I'm pretty sure the OP is looking for something that is an
audio interface (and can be used as such on a daily basis) but happens
to be able to produce DC levels. NI DAQ is exactly not that, and also
has worse specs bit depth and sample rate than a typical audio DAC.
Instead it probably has features useful for actual data acquisition,
such a guaranteed absolute precision and external triggering.

On 8 October 2013 13:02,  <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
> National Instruments do a range of USB data acquisition products.  Try
> searching for "NI DAQ"
>
> The USB6009 for instance is quite cheap and has eight single-ended (or 4
> differential) 13-bit inputs, and two 12-bit outputs.  There are likely to be
> other products that have better output spec if that's what you're looking
> for, so check through the product range.  The DC specification of a proper
> instrumentation grade DAC will be far better than an audio CODEC bodged to
> work down to DC!
>
> -Richie,
>
>
> On 2013-10-07 20:24, grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone know of a USB DAC that allows for DC at the output? I'm not
>> using it for CV, per se, but something like that should work. Something
>> available in the US would be great, and not too expensive. Does not need
>> to be audiophile ;-)
>>
>> GB
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
/Ove

Blog: <http://blog.gg8.se/>

"Here is Evergreen City. Evergreen? is the color of green forever."


From sounddoctorin at imt.net  Tue Oct  8 14:18:23 2013
From: sounddoctorin at imt.net (Bob Weigel)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 06:18:23 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <5252D5C1.6090505@mnet-online.de>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<525141D5.2000609@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<5252D5C1.6090505@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <5253F80F.90600@imt.net>

On 10/7/2013 9:39 AM, Florian Anwander wrote:
> Hello
>
> > Roland had to change their filter for instance.
>
>
> Do we really know that roland had to do so? Or maybe Roland wasn't 
> keen any longer to pay the patent fees?
>
> The history of the filters is quite interesting:
>
> The SH-1000 started in 1973 with the diode ladder filter.

Correct
> In 1974 came the SH-3 still with the diode ladder filter, 

Maybe I've been told wrong.  I haven't actually verified what my 3a has 
in it but I think it's another Roland design and the 3 had the moog 
filter from what i've been seen in all references so far.



From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Tue Oct  8 14:42:02 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:42:02 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <5253F80F.90600@imt.net>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<D5766D45-AC19-4CD5-AE33-5F62E3714601@wentk.com>
	<525141D5.2000609@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<5252D5C1.6090505@mnet-online.de> <5253F80F.90600@imt.net>
Message-ID: <5253FD9A.7000504@mnet-online.de>

Hello Bob

Am 08.10.2013 14:18, schrieb Bob Weigel:
>> In 1974 came the SH-3 still with the diode ladder filter,
>
> Maybe I've been told wrong.  I haven't actually verified what my 3a has
> in it but I think it's another Roland design and the 3 had the moog
> filter from what i've been seen in all references so far.

You simply may have a look at the service manuals:
http://www.synfo.nl/servicemanuals/Roland/SH-3_SERVICE_NOTES.pdf pg.14
http://www.synfo.nl/servicemanuals/Roland/SH-3A_SERVICE_NOTES_5th.pdf pg-22
http://www.synfo.nl/servicemanuals/Roland/SH-2000_SERVICE_NOTES.pdf pg.13

SH-3 -> diode filter (from the beginning)
SH-2000 -> first Moog, later transistor-diode-ladder
SH-3a -> Moog filter

According to Peter Forrests A-Z the SH-3a was sold until 1981 (so lets 
assume produced maybe until early 1980), and there never was a change of 
the filter Design. So if there would have been any serious legal issues 
between Roland and Moog, Roland would have switched back to the diode 
ladder.

Florian



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 14:48:27 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:48:27 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <CABacs=C8X99dnxiVBYQ_McchrVUVhKCPi1iiYXW1W8riaEFy=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
	<313d3d8115f5665eaf395e813524a65e@richieburnett.co.uk>
	<CABacs=C8X99dnxiVBYQ_McchrVUVhKCPi1iiYXW1W8riaEFy=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86c4192caa0974019c21bf1079036c3c@richieburnett.co.uk>

> Richie, I'm pretty sure the OP is looking for something that is an
> audio interface...

The "allows for DC at the output" and "Does not need to be audiophile" 
led me to believe that the use was other than audio.  After all, you 
can't hear DC ;-)

-Richie,


> On 8 October 2013 13:02,  <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
>> National Instruments do a range of USB data acquisition products.  Try
>> searching for "NI DAQ"
>> 
>> The USB6009 for instance is quite cheap and has eight single-ended (or 
>> 4
>> differential) 13-bit inputs, and two 12-bit outputs.  There are likely 
>> to be
>> other products that have better output spec if that's what you're 
>> looking
>> for, so check through the product range.  The DC specification of a 
>> proper
>> instrumentation grade DAC will be far better than an audio CODEC 
>> bodged to
>> work down to DC!
>> 
>> -Richie,
>> 
>> 
>> On 2013-10-07 20:24, grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know of a USB DAC that allows for DC at the output? I'm 
>>> not
>>> using it for CV, per se, but something like that should work. 
>>> Something
>>> available in the US would be great, and not too expensive. Does not 
>>> need
>>> to be audiophile ;-)
>>> 
>>> GB
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Tue Oct  8 15:05:23 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (MTG)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 06:05:23 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <CABacs=C8X99dnxiVBYQ_McchrVUVhKCPi1iiYXW1W8riaEFy=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
	<313d3d8115f5665eaf395e813524a65e@richieburnett.co.uk>
	<CABacs=C8X99dnxiVBYQ_McchrVUVhKCPi1iiYXW1W8riaEFy=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52540313.3090101@musictechnologiesgroup.com>

Hi all,

It is for experimenting with some old sampler/rompler code and wave 
files, so something like 12-bit would be fine. However I don't fancy 
writing my own usb driver for it, so I think an audio dac of some kind 
will have to fit the bill. I can write something to convert the files 
I'm using to WAV if I have to, then use PC software to play it. I will 
look at the NI stuff and see what the host side interface looks like though.

GB

On 10/8/2013 4:40 AM, Ove Rid? wrote:
> Richie, I'm pretty sure the OP is looking for something that is an
> audio interface (and can be used as such on a daily basis) but happens
> to be able to produce DC levels. NI DAQ is exactly not that, and also
> has worse specs bit depth and sample rate than a typical audio DAC.
> Instead it probably has features useful for actual data acquisition,
> such a guaranteed absolute precision and external triggering.
>
> On 8 October 2013 13:02,  <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
>> National Instruments do a range of USB data acquisition products.  Try
>> searching for "NI DAQ"
>>
>> The USB6009 for instance is quite cheap and has eight single-ended (or 4
>> differential) 13-bit inputs, and two 12-bit outputs.  There are likely to be
>> other products that have better output spec if that's what you're looking
>> for, so check through the product range.  The DC specification of a proper
>> instrumentation grade DAC will be far better than an audio CODEC bodged to
>> work down to DC!
>>
>> -Richie,
>>
>>
>> On 2013-10-07 20:24, grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Does anyone know of a USB DAC that allows for DC at the output? I'm not
>>> using it for CV, per se, but something like that should work. Something
>>> available in the US would be great, and not too expensive. Does not need
>>> to be audiophile ;-)
>>>
>>> GB
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
>


From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Tue Oct  8 15:27:13 2013
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 14:27:13 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <52540313.3090101@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
	<313d3d8115f5665eaf395e813524a65e@richieburnett.co.uk>
	<CABacs=C8X99dnxiVBYQ_McchrVUVhKCPi1iiYXW1W8riaEFy=A@mail.gmail.com>
	<52540313.3090101@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
Message-ID: <20131008132713.GA31320@gjcp.net>

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 06:05:23AM -0700, MTG wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> It is for experimenting with some old sampler/rompler code and wave
> files, so something like 12-bit would be fine. However I don't fancy
> writing my own usb driver for it, so I think an audio dac of some
> kind will have to fit the bill. I can write something to convert the
> files I'm using to WAV if I have to, then use PC software to play
> it. I will look at the NI stuff and see what the host side interface
> looks like though.
> 
> GB

Can you use sox to convert the files?  Which sampler is it?  I've got various bits of code knocking around for mangling old sample formats.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ



From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Tue Oct  8 18:05:25 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 18:05:25 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
In-Reply-To: <20131008132713.GA31320@gjcp.net>
References: <20131007122455.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.58bfd94a41.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>
	<313d3d8115f5665eaf395e813524a65e@richieburnett.co.uk>
	<CABacs=C8X99dnxiVBYQ_McchrVUVhKCPi1iiYXW1W8riaEFy=A@mail.gmail.com>
	<52540313.3090101@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
	<20131008132713.GA31320@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <52542D45.20006@mnet-online.de>

Hello

Am 08.10.2013 15:27, schrieb Gordon JC Pearce:
> Can you use sox to convert the files?
Does sox 12Bit?

Florian



From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 18:05:44 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 17:05:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
In-Reply-To: <20131008123619.FC96.CHRIS@chrismusic.de>
References: <F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>
	<5253DD99.4070609@mnet-online.de>
	<20131008123619.FC96.CHRIS@chrismusic.de>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxJaxmov+1Zug5bXc+35Lc+WoU=SbHZhGUALY2rN-CXa0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

ChristianH wrote:
> My guess would be that the chip was prohibitively expensive back then,
> and it was more economical to do discrete circuits.
> Those were the days...

Don Sauer's website covers the LM13600/13700 story, which makes
reference to the CA3080:

http://www.idea2ic.com/LM13600/LM13700.html

Cheers,
Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From roglok at hyperground.de  Tue Oct  8 18:21:58 2013
From: roglok at hyperground.de (roglok)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 18:21:58 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxJaxmov+1Zug5bXc+35Lc+WoU=SbHZhGUALY2rN-CXa0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>
	<5253DD99.4070609@mnet-online.de>
	<20131008123619.FC96.CHRIS@chrismusic.de>
	<CACZGMxJaxmov+1Zug5bXc+35Lc+WoU=SbHZhGUALY2rN-CXa0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0C294B1E-467C-48BD-BB09-ADB1E869FD69@hyperground.de>

"The LM13600 has designed by Bill Gross and myself in less than 5 minutes."
:)

On 08.10.2013, at 18:05, Neil Johnson wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> ChristianH wrote:
>> My guess would be that the chip was prohibitively expensive back then,
>> and it was more economical to do discrete circuits.
>> Those were the days...
> 
> Don Sauer's website covers the LM13600/13700 story, which makes
> reference to the CA3080:
> 
> http://www.idea2ic.com/LM13600/LM13700.html
> 
> Cheers,
> Neil
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From wackyvorlon at me.com  Tue Oct  8 20:10:04 2013
From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:10:04 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Poly analog synths needing multiple signal paths?
Message-ID: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>

I've read that polyphonic analog synths need a complete, separate signal path for each note of polyphony. I've never entirely understood why. I would think that you could have multiple oscillators, each getting its own CV, feed them into a mixer, then from there to filtering etc.  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

--------
Paul Anderson
Facilities Manager
Hackforge

From recompas at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 20:27:20 2013
From: recompas at gmail.com (Travis Thatcher)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:27:20 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Poly analog synths needing multiple signal paths?
In-Reply-To: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
References: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAG0qc=3c3fXRvBM=QwF0LtVoGV4BNYVooLmUXcFcR2waPjRF_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I believe that would be considered a paraphonic synth?  True polyphony
means a full architecture for each voice - classically vco-vcf-vca.

-T

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
> I've read that polyphonic analog synths need a complete, separate signal path for each note of polyphony. I've never entirely understood why. I would think that you could have multiple oscillators, each getting its own CV, feed them into a mixer, then from there to filtering etc.  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!
>
> --------
> Paul Anderson
> Facilities Manager
> Hackforge
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
http://www.travisthatcher.com
http://www.soundcloud.com/thevoiceofsaturn
http://voiceofsaturn.blogspot.com


From jspeth at avnera.com  Tue Oct  8 20:31:00 2013
From: jspeth at avnera.com (John Speth)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 11:31:00 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Poly analog synths needing multiple signal paths?
In-Reply-To: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
References: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
Message-ID: <e831d8dabec919e248a7fc686b6947a2@mail.gmail.com>

> I've read that polyphonic analog synths need a complete, separate signal
path
> for each note of polyphony. I've never entirely understood why. I would
think
> that you could have multiple oscillators, each getting its own CV, feed
them
> into a mixer, then from there to filtering etc.

That depends on what you mean by "separate signal path".  If you want each
voice to have their own envelope for filter and volume, then each
voicesignal path will be Osc, filt, amp.  Multiple voices will mix with
each other in a mixer.

JJS


From ol.gillet at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 20:37:59 2013
From: ol.gillet at gmail.com (Olivier Gillet)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 20:37:59 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Poly analog synths needing multiple signal paths?
In-Reply-To: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
References: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAJoLJ5X8PKz5hW3GmW4nswwdZkxheHq3upHJ7UCEz73PvxEkwQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I would think that you could have multiple oscillators, each getting its own CV, feed them into a mixer, then from there to filtering etc.

This can be done, this is called paraphony. There are a few
occurrences of synths like that - like the Poly-800, it's fun and
quirky, but the classic polys are not done like that, no way.

Let's say that you have all 8 oscillators sent into a mixer and a
single VCF/VCA, with a short decaying envelope with a low sustain
modulating the VCF and the VCA.

You play and hold a C. The envelope is triggered. And you hear a C
with a ptzong filter sweep, and then it sustains at a low level.
Now you play a G, one second later. Either:
a/ The envelope does not retrigger and you won't hear anything.
b/ The envelope retriggers and you hear the C+G with the filter sweep.
This is like the C has been retriggerd.

If you just want to play house stabs, not a big deal. If you do
anything more complex you have to deal with the fact that every new
note will retrigger whatever is still lingering/sustaining. If you
want notes to coexist in both a "decaying" and a "freshly hit" state,
you need one VCF/VCA per voice.

Another problem is filter key-tracking. If you play a low note and a
high note at the same time, you probably want the two of them to go
through filters with different cutoff values so that they have a
relatively homogenous timbre.

Olivier





On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 8:10 PM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
> I've read that polyphonic analog synths need a complete, separate signal path for each note of polyphony. I've never entirely understood why. I would think that you could have multiple oscillators, each getting its own CV, feed them into a mixer, then from there to filtering etc.  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!
>
> --------
> Paul Anderson
> Facilities Manager
> Hackforge
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Tue Oct  8 20:53:40 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 05:53:40 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Poly analog synths needing multiple signal paths?
In-Reply-To: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
References: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
Message-ID: <D8B5CD56AC99464780BB6F6510030A62@galvanox01>

> I've read that polyphonic analog synths need a complete, 
> separate signal path for each note of polyphony. I've never 
> entirely understood why. I would think that you could have 
> multiple oscillators, each getting its own CV, feed them into 
> a mixer, then from there to filtering etc.  Any thoughts are 
> greatly appreciated!

I believe that what you are describing is generally called "paraphonic".
True polyphony is completely separate voices (even if all the filters, etc,
are controlled from the same CV sources).



From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Tue Oct  8 21:53:40 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:53:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
Message-ID: <20131008125340.c16e921f9c8655b42ea149fc1daa3492.023f4b7626.wbe@email13.secureserver.net>

Interesting package Sox. I have looked at AWave, but it's kind of odd.
For my purposes the data chips are actually 16-bits wide but the most
significant nibble is always zero. This is the Kawai R100 drum machine,
but other 12-bit machines of the era are similar.  I have sorted out the
u-law thing that Linn/Oberheim/360/SCI/Drumulator(?) used, but I see Sox
handles that as well. 

GB


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sdiy] DC Coupled DAC
From: Florian Anwander <fanwander at mnet-online.de>
Date: Tue, October 08, 2013 9:05 am
To: Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp at gjcp.net>
Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl

Hello

Am 08.10.2013 15:27, schrieb Gordon JC Pearce:
> Can you use sox to convert the files?
Does sox 12Bit?

Florian

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From paul at cometway.com  Tue Oct  8 22:06:10 2013
From: paul at cometway.com (Paul Cunningham)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 16:06:10 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Poly analog synths needing multiple signal paths?
In-Reply-To: <CAG0qc=3c3fXRvBM=QwF0LtVoGV4BNYVooLmUXcFcR2waPjRF_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
	<CAG0qc=3c3fXRvBM=QwF0LtVoGV4BNYVooLmUXcFcR2waPjRF_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6FE04CBC-09BF-4632-8845-620EE31EB08E@cometway.com>

korg poly-800:

4 or 8 voices (1 or 2 DCOs/voice)
 -> 1 DCA/voice (1 or 2 EGs)
 -> 1 DCF 24dB/oct all 8 voices
 -> stereo effects

The filter is after the DCAs... -pc

On Oct 8, 2013, at 2:27 PM, Travis Thatcher <recompas at gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe that would be considered a paraphonic synth?  True polyphony
> means a full architecture for each voice - classically vco-vcf-vca.
> 
> -T
> 
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
>> I've read that polyphonic analog synths need a complete, separate signal path for each note of polyphony. I've never entirely understood why. I would think that you could have multiple oscillators, each getting its own CV, feed them into a mixer, then from there to filtering etc.  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!
>> 
>> --------
>> Paul Anderson
>> Facilities Manager
>> Hackforge
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://www.travisthatcher.com
> http://www.soundcloud.com/thevoiceofsaturn
> http://voiceofsaturn.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From spr at spridley.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 22:25:25 2013
From: spr at spridley.freeserve.co.uk (Steve Ridley)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:25:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
In-Reply-To: <5253DD99.4070609@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <19463493.149681381263925903.JavaMail.www@wwinf3722>



> Or were there some earlier OTA filters in Synths?

The first generation Serge VCF was a dual 3080 SVF. 1973.


Steve


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 22:25:30 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:25:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Some old audio/synthesis IC's for sale
Message-ID: <57328ab168ffe583734864aa1fb28135@richieburnett.co.uk>

Hi all,

Some old un-needed IC's for sale.  All are genuine parts in working 
order pulled from old projects.

Had been used to build copy of Roland stereo chorus found in Juno and JX 
series synths:

2x MN3009 Panasonic 256-stage low-noise BBD
2x MN3101 Panasonic Clock generator / driver for BBD
2x C4558C NEC Japan dual op-amp

Had been used to build 8-bit digital delay line as per old Maplin DIY 
project:

1x ZN448E 8-bit Successive approximation A-to-D converter
2x ZN428E-8 8-bit latched Digital to Analogue converter
1x 43256AC-10L 32768 x 8-bit CMOS Static RAM

Various other analogue ICs from synthesiser, stereo compressor/expander, 
etc:

1x SSM2045 Music Voicing System (Dual VCA plus VCF)
1x SSM2120 Dynamic Range Processor
1x CA3046 General purpose NPN Transistor Array
1x TL084CN quad operation amplifier

If you're interested make me a *sensible* offer by email.  (All DIL 
packages. Will post in anti-static packaging.  You pay postage.  No 
after-sales support for your DIY project using these parts!)

Best regards,

-Richie Burnett (UK)


From don at till.com  Tue Oct  8 23:53:36 2013
From: don at till.com (Donald Tillman)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 14:53:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Noise (more than you'd expect)
Message-ID: <F1E73068-4FB6-4507-B83B-E4CE92E66CBB@till.com>

This is pretty interesting (seen on Hacker News):

    http://www.mynoise.net

Custom-shaped online noise machines.

  -- Don

--
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com






From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 03:39:44 2013
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 21:39:44 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] First appearance of the CA3080?
In-Reply-To: <5253DD99.4070609@mnet-online.de>
References: <5253D4D6.6090408@mnet-online.de>
	<F3CBB4160B6B40129536E0EB59612CC6@AnwenderPC>
	<5253DD99.4070609@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UCmdGaBYdkgVD4mrr-rhnw44ZmU=fwb9od49iywTP7j_w@mail.gmail.com>

> Can some of you imagine, why there was no synth filter until the State
> Variable Filter in the Oberheim SEM in 1974, which was based on the
> OTAs? Or were there some earlier OTA filters in Synths?

There was...

Dennis Colin developed the multimode filter using OTAs for the ARP
2500.  Patent #3,805,091 filed in June 1972, and presented an AES
paper in April 1971

MC


From andy at cytomic.com  Wed Oct  9 05:36:48 2013
From: andy at cytomic.com (Andrew Simper)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 11:36:48 +0800
Subject: [sdiy] Poly analog synths needing multiple signal paths?
In-Reply-To: <CAJoLJ5X8PKz5hW3GmW4nswwdZkxheHq3upHJ7UCEz73PvxEkwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A79225A2-72D2-4D5F-81F9-A4969A0584CC@me.com>
	<CAJoLJ5X8PKz5hW3GmW4nswwdZkxheHq3upHJ7UCEz73PvxEkwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAxOnzbTJq8k_mLp5znqeeuNpO8C=8w0BL6uFCdnJ=5-Y-ueGw@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 October 2013 02:37, Olivier Gillet <ol.gillet at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I would think that you could have multiple oscillators, each getting its own CV, feed them into a mixer, then from there to filtering etc.
>
> This can be done, this is called paraphony.
> ...
> You play and hold a C. The envelope is triggered. And you hear a C
> with a ptzong filter sweep, and then it sustains at a low level.
> Now you play a G, one second later. Either:
> a/ The envelope does not retrigger and you won't hear anything.
> b/ The envelope retriggers and you hear the C+G with the filter sweep.
> This is like the C has been retriggerd.
>
> Another problem is filter key-tracking. If you play a low note and a
> high note at the same time, you probably want the two of them to go
> through filters with different cutoff values so that they have a
> relatively homogenous timbre.
>
> Olivier

Another problem is intermodulation distortion of different pitches in
a chord all hitting the same non-linear filter. In many non-paraphonic
synths a lot of the tone comes from the filter drive which distorts
the oscillators and make things sound more interesting, but with a
paraphonic setup this gain staging will cause intermodulation
problems.

Andy


From onephatcat at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  9 06:40:47 2013
From: onephatcat at earthlink.net (Joel B)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 21:40:47 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
Message-ID: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>

Hi, question for the group:

Does anyone manufacture a prebuilt audio platform with midi in/out, multiple audio I/O, input for knobs/buttons/switches and a color LCD that can be used for application development, and also be sourced later for manufacturing once a viable product is complete?

Not an arduino, but something maybe  more commercial and less DIY oriented?

Joel

From rsdio at sounds.wa.com  Wed Oct  9 06:59:26 2013
From: rsdio at sounds.wa.com (rsdio at sounds.wa.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 21:59:26 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <D4D78197-A080-42EA-9159-3DFE261C571E@sounds.wa.com>

The monome folks just announced aleph

http://monome.org/aleph/

No MIDI, per se, but I believe it could easily host a USB-MIDI interface
4 audio in / 4 audio out
4 buttons
4 encoders
has some kind of expansion port that might support more knobs/buttons/ 
switches
OLED (grayscale)

... also has 4 CV in / 4 CV out

I don't know if it can be sourced later for manufacturing, but it's  
$1,400.00 to consumers so it's not cheap

I think you'll find that it's probably too expensive to make a  
generic platform that does everything you list, which is why most  
products have a custom PCB tailored to the exact needs of the device.  
Or, at least I don't think everyone could agree on the feature list,  
which sort of reduces the potential market size.

Brian Willoughby
Sound Consulting

p.s. If you need someone to design such a platform, drop me a line.


On Oct 8, 2013, at 21:40, Joel B wrote:
>
> Hi, question for the group:
>
> Does anyone manufacture a prebuilt audio platform with midi in/out,  
> multiple audio I/O, input for knobs/buttons/switches and a color  
> LCD that can be used for application development, and also be  
> sourced later for manufacturing once a viable product is complete?
>
> Not an arduino, but something maybe  more commercial and less DIY  
> oriented?
>
> Joel



From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Wed Oct  9 07:28:18 2013
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:28:18 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <D73AA8EFABF345D287F5F95E046064D1@ownerf0d9273f5>

I can't imagine why anyone would make something like that as an OEM product, 
but maybe
there is an existing cheap mass product without MIDI that can be easily 
hacked.
Should be relatively easy to add MIDI if you are rewriting anyway.

Paul Perry Melbourne Australia

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joel B" <onephatcat at earthlink.net>
To: "Sdiy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 3:40 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?


> Hi, question for the group:
>
> Does anyone manufacture a prebuilt audio platform with midi in/out, 
> multiple audio I/O, input for knobs/buttons/switches and a color LCD that 
> can be used for application development, and also be sourced later for 
> manufacturing once a viable product is complete?
>
> Not an arduino, but something maybe  more commercial and less DIY 
> oriented?
>
> Joel
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
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Version: 9.0.932 / Virus Database: 3222.1.1/6234 - Release Date: 10/09/13 
06:11:00



From mcbinc at panix.com  Wed Oct  9 08:45:13 2013
From: mcbinc at panix.com (m brandenberg)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 02:45:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <D4D78197-A080-42EA-9159-3DFE261C571E@sounds.wa.com>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<D4D78197-A080-42EA-9159-3DFE261C571E@sounds.wa.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1310090239160.15019@panix1.panix.com>

On Tue, 8 Oct 2013, rsdio at sounds.wa.com wrote:

> The monome folks just announced aleph
>
> http://monome.org/aleph/

If anyone picks this up, I'd love to read a story about their
experience.  The minimalism pushed most of my buttons and is
why I have monome and arc.  But the price is a bit over the
Horton Limit.

Joel, the Chameleon was an attempt at what you're asking
for.  Long out of production but substantially open-source.
You might pick over this:

   http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/techdocs.shtml

Paul Maddox was going to take another swing at this but
has other projects now, I believe.

m

--
Monty Brandenberg


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed Oct  9 08:49:08 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 17:49:08 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Noise (more than you'd expect)
In-Reply-To: <F1E73068-4FB6-4507-B83B-E4CE92E66CBB@till.com>
References: <F1E73068-4FB6-4507-B83B-E4CE92E66CBB@till.com>
Message-ID: <AF28DE6C98C849A095BEB3D1F0F9D08E@galvanox01>

Hmm, could be just the thing for persistent and annoying tinnitus. 

> This is pretty interesting (seen on Hacker News):
> 
>     http://www.mynoise.net
> 
> Custom-shaped online noise machines.
> 
>   -- Don



From jarno.verhoeven at ziggo.nl  Wed Oct  9 09:26:41 2013
From: jarno.verhoeven at ziggo.nl (J. Verhoeven)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:26:41 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Noise (more than you'd expect)
In-Reply-To: <71d090246e93f.52550527@ziggo.nl>
References: <F1E73068-4FB6-4507-B83B-E4CE92E66CBB@till.com>
	<AF28DE6C98C849A095BEB3D1F0F9D08E@galvanox01>
	<71d090246e93f.52550527@ziggo.nl>
Message-ID: <72c0f2326ffde.52552151@ziggo.nl>

Annoying colleagues as well, I have it switched on now :-) 
Excellent choice in noises on that site.

 
Jarno.
 
 
On 10/09/13, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote: 
> Hmm, could be just the thing for persistent and annoying tinnitus. 
> 
> > This is pretty interesting (seen on Hacker News):
> > 
> > http://www.mynoise.net(http://www.mynoise.net/)
> > 
> > Custom-shaped online noise machines.
> > 
> > -- Don
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
>


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 17:48:19 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:48:19 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxL8YvuuzK5T8uwhoPPEEHU5Sz-P_Om0xbpYFWvB2+RFLA@mail.gmail.com>

From

David G Dixon wrote:
> There are no legal issues of cloning, unless a) you use trademarked or
> copyrighted materials in your design (like putting the company logo on the
> panel) or b) there are elements under patent protection (unlikely, given
> that patents are only good for 17 to 20 years from the priority date, which
> will be long past for all this stuff).
>
> Opposing viewpoints welcome!

Consider this letter:  http://www.analogue.org/mr/sas/KORG35.pdf

(via Tim's page http://www.timstinchcombe.co.uk/index.php?pge=korg )

If blatant cloning takes place do you think such similar acts of
kindness would happen?  Pissing in the well provides immediate
satisfaction for the pisser, but the long term outcome is less
enjoyable.

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From nvawter at media.mit.edu  Wed Oct  9 17:56:16 2013
From: nvawter at media.mit.edu (nvawter at media.mit.edu)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 11:56:16 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>


haha, what timing :)

I've been working on something a little like this for the last five  
months or so.

My take on the world is it's amazing how people are designing all  
kinds of new electronic music instruments all the time.  It's just a  
shame that it requires so many different disciplines stacked up:  
electronics, coding, musicianship, fabrication.  I'm trying to supply  
a stable platform of electronics and code that instrument developers  
can piggy-back on top of.  That way, they can get in more hours of  
interface design, play and performance.

Unlike the STM32f4 discovery board, it's small, has headers organized  
for musical purposes (dedicated MIDI, analog inputs are on  
interchangeable headers) and is completely intended for people to  
embed into instruments that they re-sell.  If anyone on this list  
would like to know more, get access to information and/or boards  
before the general public, please let me know.  I hope to be posting  
it here in the next few weeks for more general feedback/review.



-- 
http://diydsp.blogspot.com has wild and wonderful digital music instruments


Quoting Joel B <onephatcat at earthlink.net>:

> Hi, question for the group:
>
> Does anyone manufacture a prebuilt audio platform with midi in/out,  
> multiple audio I/O, input for knobs/buttons/switches and a color LCD  
> that can be used for application development, and also be sourced  
> later for manufacturing once a viable product is complete?
>
> Not an arduino, but something maybe  more commercial and less DIY oriented?
>
> Joel
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>




From music.maker at gte.net  Wed Oct  9 18:07:14 2013
From: music.maker at gte.net (Scott Gravenhorst)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:07:14 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] MicroZed
Message-ID: <201310091607.r99G7Ehs013276@linux7.lan>


http://www.zedboard.org/product/microzed

Has anyone played with this?  Avnet has it listed for $199.

FPGA:  XC7Z010-1CLG400C

1 GB of DDR3 SDRAM

Seems to me that all it needs is a codec and (for me) a pin for MIDI UART.

-- ScottG
________________________________________________________________________
-- Scott Gravenhorst
-- FPGA MIDI Synth Info: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/FPGA_synth/
-- FatMan Mods Etc.: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/fatman/
-- Some Random Electronics Bits: jovianpyx.dyndns.org:8080/public/electronics/
-- When the going gets tough, the tough use the command line.



From nate at paperproductsmusic.com  Wed Oct  9 18:13:02 2013
From: nate at paperproductsmusic.com (Nathanael King)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 12:13:02 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxL8YvuuzK5T8uwhoPPEEHU5Sz-P_Om0xbpYFWvB2+RFLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>
	<CACZGMxL8YvuuzK5T8uwhoPPEEHU5Sz-P_Om0xbpYFWvB2+RFLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOysfL4oR7uqxZ+=24uzNxGgNnj3aa5Ngc6rMJQ=cCo_us2JgA@mail.gmail.com>

Also, I think it's fair to speculate Korg most likely would not have
released that information if they had plans at that time for the ms-20
mini. Just a small example how possibly diluting demand could work
against the good of the public. That is, of course, not a problem at
this point. Yet, a few years ago, if someone had put an ms-20 in a
small enclosure for $800, then it would have measurably hurt all of us
besides infringing on Korg's right to profit.

Nate

On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> From
>
> David G Dixon wrote:
>> There are no legal issues of cloning, unless a) you use trademarked or
>> copyrighted materials in your design (like putting the company logo on the
>> panel) or b) there are elements under patent protection (unlikely, given
>> that patents are only good for 17 to 20 years from the priority date, which
>> will be long past for all this stuff).
>>
>> Opposing viewpoints welcome!
>
> Consider this letter:  http://www.analogue.org/mr/sas/KORG35.pdf
>
> (via Tim's page http://www.timstinchcombe.co.uk/index.php?pge=korg )
>
> If blatant cloning takes place do you think such similar acts of
> kindness would happen?  Pissing in the well provides immediate
> satisfaction for the pisser, but the long term outcome is less
> enjoyable.
>
> Neil
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
Nate King
Paper Products Music


From ebrombaugh1 at cox.net  Wed Oct  9 18:24:42 2013
From: ebrombaugh1 at cox.net (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:24:42 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] MicroZed
In-Reply-To: <b47g1m00E4AXc3W0147lAx>
References: <b47g1m00E4AXc3W0147lAx>
Message-ID: <5255834A.5010908@cox.net>

There's another Zynq devboard coming from Digilent in the next few months:

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,1198&Prod=ZYBO

A bit less expensive, and it has audio on the board already. I've 
ordered one.

Eric

On 10/09/2013 09:07 AM, Scott Gravenhorst wrote:
>
> http://www.zedboard.org/product/microzed
>
> Has anyone played with this?  Avnet has it listed for $199.
>
> FPGA:  XC7Z010-1CLG400C
>
> 1 GB of DDR3 SDRAM
>
> Seems to me that all it needs is a codec and (for me) a pin for MIDI UART.



From alvitar at xavax.com  Wed Oct  9 19:07:09 2013
From: alvitar at xavax.com (Phil Harbison)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:07:09 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] development boards
Message-ID: <52558D3D.2090009@xavax.com>

This article reviewing development boards might be of interest to
DIYers.

Thinking Outside The Pi
http://www.electronicproducts.com/Computer_Systems/Standalone_Mobile/Thinking_outside_the_Pi.aspx

-- 
Phil Harbison



From info at labofsound.com  Wed Oct  9 21:04:14 2013
From: info at labofsound.com (The Laboratory of Sound)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 21:04:14 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog Prodigy)
Message-ID: <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>

Dear all,

I am having the hardest time finding a 2.5 Meg ccw audio/reverse log 
potentiometer, preferably with a 1/4" or 6.3 mm D type shaft. I need it 
to repair the LFO rate of a Moog Prodigy (someone replaced the 2.5 Meg 
with a 100 K pot so that it can only produce fast rates). Any help would 
be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Jack

-- 
The Laboratory of Sound
Duivenvoordestraat 28
2341 JE Oegstgeest
The Netherlands

T +31 71 517 0230

www.labofsound.com


From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Thu Oct 10 00:24:55 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 00:24:55 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog
	Prodigy)
In-Reply-To: <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>
References: <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>
Message-ID: <5255D7B7.2060901@mnet-online.de>

Keep the 100k potentiometer and replace the capacitor by a suitable value.

On 09.10.13 21:04 , The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
> I am having the hardest time finding a 2.5 Meg ccw audio/reverse log
> potentiometer, preferably with a 1/4" or 6.3 mm D type shaft. I need it
> to repair the LFO rate of a Moog Prodigy (someone replaced the 2.5 Meg
> with a 100 K pot so that it can only produce fast rates). Any help would
> be greatly appreciated.


From veronica at merryfield.ca  Thu Oct 10 00:29:25 2013
From: veronica at merryfield.ca (Veronica Merryfield)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:29:25 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog
	Prodigy)
In-Reply-To: <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>
References: <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>
Message-ID: <B362AB72-6E9F-4D70-BF71-2E8035B4F831@merryfield.ca>

You can turn a linear pot into a log pot with the addition of a resistor from the output to one end of the wiper. Very quick to set up a spreadsheet to graph the response so you can choose the right values.

On 2013-10-09, at 12:04 PM, The Laboratory of Sound <info at labofsound.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> I am having the hardest time finding a 2.5 Meg ccw audio/reverse log potentiometer, preferably with a 1/4" or 6.3 mm D type shaft. I need it to repair the LFO rate of a Moog Prodigy (someone replaced the 2.5 Meg with a 100 K pot so that it can only produce fast rates). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jack
> 
> -- 
> The Laboratory of Sound
> Duivenvoordestraat 28
> 2341 JE Oegstgeest
> The Netherlands
> 
> T +31 71 517 0230
> 
> www.labofsound.com
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 



From andy at cytomic.com  Thu Oct 10 03:52:12 2013
From: andy at cytomic.com (Andrew Simper)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:52:12 +0800
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxL8YvuuzK5T8uwhoPPEEHU5Sz-P_Om0xbpYFWvB2+RFLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>
	<CACZGMxL8YvuuzK5T8uwhoPPEEHU5Sz-P_Om0xbpYFWvB2+RFLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAxOnzY3fhTjWP6_GR2Kj4B_xW0zBVsXC=R1JvU2t3YwvNscVw@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 October 2013 23:48, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> From
>
>
> Consider this letter:  http://www.analogue.org/mr/sas/KORG35.pdf
>
> (via Tim's page http://www.timstinchcombe.co.uk/index.php?pge=korg )
>
> If blatant cloning takes place do you think such similar acts of
> kindness would happen?  Pissing in the well provides immediate
> satisfaction for the pisser, but the long term outcome is less
> enjoyable.
>
> Neil
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk

I was a bit surprised about this letter being leaked as well, but
luckily I think it worked out well for Korg in the end because of how
they reacted to it. If you put this in context what happened next was
Korg released the monotron which was (is) a huge success, and they
then also released the schematic for it which has lead to a huge cult
scene of people modding their monotrons into mini ms-20s and all kinds
of other things (google image search for "monotron mods"
http://goo.gl/iZLzVO ).

I think Korg's brand is strong enough that if they release something
people would buy it in preference to a knock off DIY job, and Korg can
manufacture these things very competitively. Korg now even leave
headers on their pcbs to make it easier for people to mod them. I have
bought the monotron and the monotribe, and both my kids and I love
playing them. I hope Korg continue on the trend of making cool new
affordable analog kit and releasing schematics for it.

Andy


From onephatcat at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 10 04:05:55 2013
From: onephatcat at earthlink.net (Joel B)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 19:05:55 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <544794AD-E19B-4BED-A8F4-4176205CB14F@earthlink.net>

Cool, thanks, definitely would like to know more.

Joel

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 9, 2013, at 8:56 AM, nvawter at media.mit.edu wrote:
> 
> 
> haha, what timing :)
> 
> I've been working on something a little like this for the last five months or so.
> 
> My take on the world is it's amazing how people are designing all kinds of new electronic music instruments all the time.  It's just a shame that it requires so many different disciplines stacked up: electronics, coding, musicianship, fabrication.  I'm trying to supply a stable platform of electronics and code that instrument developers can piggy-back on top of.  That way, they can get in more hours of interface design, play and performance.
> 
> Unlike the STM32f4 discovery board, it's small, has headers organized for musical purposes (dedicated MIDI, analog inputs are on interchangeable headers) and is completely intended for people to embed into instruments that they re-sell.  If anyone on this list would like to know more, get access to information and/or boards before the general public, please let me know.  I hope to be posting it here in the next few weeks for more general feedback/review.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://diydsp.blogspot.com has wild and wonderful digital music instruments
> 
> 
> Quoting Joel B <onephatcat at earthlink.net>:
> 
>> Hi, question for the group:
>> 
>> Does anyone manufacture a prebuilt audio platform with midi in/out, multiple audio I/O, input for knobs/buttons/switches and a color LCD that can be used for application development, and also be sourced later for manufacturing once a viable product is complete?
>> 
>> Not an arduino, but something maybe  more commercial and less DIY oriented?
>> 
>> Joel
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> 


From jansmail at xs4all.nl  Thu Oct 10 08:56:08 2013
From: jansmail at xs4all.nl (rick)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:56:08 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Squabbling (was Re: [WTB] IR3R01 in UK)
In-Reply-To: <524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
References: <DUB123-W3760ECA40BE739D9D6C33097170@phx.gbl>
	<69924d26cce54631da221eb6864179f6@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524DC20A.7040603@imt.net>
	<DUB123-W2006C9F93C466F2EC3CC3D97170@phx.gbl>
	<B6FDCD50-81D3-4588-8BCA-5C29094FF1C6@electricdruid.net>
	<CACodTR9+-0wU_myWTYQHiZQFtPRyJDsg3KpodDwCDaUmLmWGGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9GZUi1yNsFBWa2W5CMJBbqTuTNNfd+tngCyQWtMxThZacjzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-M+YfdKUwMNu2LL3ckNnrkWdfrMiQgGk9p39Lu4sNYkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY406-EAS84255A072B3DDA80B147B8C8170@phx.gbl>
	<d5f0b993b0caf59086b56e56056ff1b1@webmail.byte.nl>
	<524E8046.2010206@imt.net>
Message-ID: <52564F88.1050106@xs4all.nl>


As this list is *only* for discussion on synth-diy electronics, not about for
sale messages, and certainly not for squabbling, and definitely not for name
calling, and I asked to stop this before, I'm banning you from synth-diy.

rick

On 04/10/2013 10:45, Bob Weigel wrote:
> On 10/4/2013 1:30 AM, The Laboratory of Sound wrote:
>> I am new to the synth-diy community and am hoping to find a place 
>> where synth enthusiasts like myself share their passion and knowledge. 
>> I want to try and make useful contributions and hope that you will 
>> welcome me for that. As to the allegations that pop up after each 
>> message I post, there is not much I can do about it except for 
>> adhering to the adage "don't feed the monster".
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jack
>>
> Jack... what monster?  There's an elephant in the room. Not a monster.  
> You stole 267.00 of product from me plus cost me a bunch of video 
> production time to document it as you were smearing my name in a .nl 
> synth forum. Now everyone can see precisely what was said between us.  
> It's all documented.  Who is 'synth'?  Is that you too?  Trying to make 
> people think the video is a virus?
> 
> Regardless ... sorry guys I don't want this to blow up unnecessarily.  
> Everyone knows what this guy did I think by now. The point is made.  
> Jack already had some repairs redirected away from him because he tried 
> to steal and run.  It's going to cost him thousands of dollars a year 
> obviously but he just doesn't seem to be a very smart thief.  Nuf said.  
> I'll drop the issue here so it doesn't hog bandwidth.
> 



From diy at artefacts.nl  Thu Oct 10 10:01:20 2013
From: diy at artefacts.nl (Maarten Halmans)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:01:20 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog
	Prodigy)
References: <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>
Message-ID: <0E49D305A8CF47648861C7410D328FD7@artefactd2a9b3>

Banzai has 3M reverse log cts pots: 
http://www.banzaimusic.com/CTS-Pot-3M-REVERSE-log.html


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Laboratory of Sound" <info at labofsound.com>
To: "synth-diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 9:04 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog Prodigy)


> Dear all,
>
> I am having the hardest time finding a 2.5 Meg ccw audio/reverse log 
> potentiometer, preferably with a 1/4" or 6.3 mm D type shaft. I need it to 
> repair the LFO rate of a Moog Prodigy (someone replaced the 2.5 Meg with a 
> 100 K pot so that it can only produce fast rates). Any help would be 
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jack
>
> -- 
> The Laboratory of Sound
> Duivenvoordestraat 28
> 2341 JE Oegstgeest
> The Netherlands
>
> T +31 71 517 0230
>
> www.labofsound.com
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 



From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 10 18:31:07 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:31:07 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <544794AD-E19B-4BED-A8F4-4176205CB14F@earthlink.net>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<544794AD-E19B-4BED-A8F4-4176205CB14F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY403-EAS121F732F6DFE83AF3EEA585C81E0@phx.gbl>

me too!!

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 9, 2013, at 10:07 PM, "Joel B" <onephatcat at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Cool, thanks, definitely would like to know more.
> 
> Joel
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2013, at 8:56 AM, nvawter at media.mit.edu wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> haha, what timing :)
>> 
>> I've been working on something a little like this for the last five months or so.
>> 
>> My take on the world is it's amazing how people are designing all kinds of new electronic music instruments all the time.  It's just a shame that it requires so many different disciplines stacked up: electronics, coding, musicianship, fabrication.  I'm trying to supply a stable platform of electronics and code that instrument developers can piggy-back on top of.  That way, they can get in more hours of interface design, play and performance.
>> 
>> Unlike the STM32f4 discovery board, it's small, has headers organized for musical purposes (dedicated MIDI, analog inputs are on interchangeable headers) and is completely intended for people to embed into instruments that they re-sell.  If anyone on this list would like to know more, get access to information and/or boards before the general public, please let me know.  I hope to be posting it here in the next few weeks for more general feedback/review.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> http://diydsp.blogspot.com has wild and wonderful digital music instruments
>> 
>> 
>> Quoting Joel B <onephatcat at earthlink.net>:
>> 
>>> Hi, question for the group:
>>> 
>>> Does anyone manufacture a prebuilt audio platform with midi in/out, multiple audio I/O, input for knobs/buttons/switches and a color LCD that can be used for application development, and also be sourced later for manufacturing once a viable product is complete?
>>> 
>>> Not an arduino, but something maybe  more commercial and less DIY oriented?
>>> 
>>> Joel
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From mars at pingdynasty.com  Fri Oct 11 11:04:11 2013
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:04:11 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>


I'd be interested in this, and might be able to contribute.
I'm working at the moment on a project using the STM32F4, and we're making a small, stand-alone digital board that could be re-purposed in many ways.

There's a photo of it here:
http://hoxtonowl.com/2013/10/new-shipping-estimates-t-shirts-ircam/

It's got an STM32F405, 8Mbit fast SRAM and the WM8731 24bit/96kHz stereo codec, plus lots of break-out headers. And USB a/b for device and host modes. Alas, no LCD!

best,

Martin

On 9 Oct 2013, at 16:56, nvawter at media.mit.edu wrote:

> 
> haha, what timing :)
> 
> I've been working on something a little like this for the last five months or so.
> 
> My take on the world is it's amazing how people are designing all kinds of new electronic music instruments all the time.  It's just a shame that it requires so many different disciplines stacked up: electronics, coding, musicianship, fabrication.  I'm trying to supply a stable platform of electronics and code that instrument developers can piggy-back on top of.  That way, they can get in more hours of interface design, play and performance.
> 
> Unlike the STM32f4 discovery board, it's small, has headers organized for musical purposes (dedicated MIDI, analog inputs are on interchangeable headers) and is completely intended for people to embed into instruments that they re-sell.  If anyone on this list would like to know more, get access to information and/or boards before the general public, please let me know.  I hope to be posting it here in the next few weeks for more general feedback/review.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://diydsp.blogspot.com has wild and wonderful digital music instruments
> 
> 
> Quoting Joel B <onephatcat at earthlink.net>:
> 
>> Hi, question for the group:
>> 
>> Does anyone manufacture a prebuilt audio platform with midi in/out, multiple audio I/O, input for knobs/buttons/switches and a color LCD that can be used for application development, and also be sourced later for manufacturing once a viable product is complete?
>> 
>> Not an arduino, but something maybe  more commercial and less DIY oriented?
>> 
>> Joel
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From nvawter at media.mit.edu  Fri Oct 11 20:42:12 2013
From: nvawter at media.mit.edu (nvawter at media.mit.edu)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:42:12 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
Message-ID: <20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>

Hi, Martin!

Ah yes, I supported that/your kickstarter campaign for The Owl!   I  
think it's going to be great.  Like I repeat to everyone I meet, the  
stm32f4 is definitely a significant step forward for embedded digital  
music instruments due to its hardware floating-point unit.

I've been hoping that my project, MOBB, can share plenty of software  
with the Owl.  I truly believe that we're about to see a growth in  
digital musical instruments which have their roots in pre-sedentary  
musical instrument design, rather than being incidental "applications"  
of personal computers.

Thanks for showing what your hardware looks like.  My HW is slightly  
different.  It is more minimalist, with fewer peripherals built into it.

What is your software development environment like?  Which compiler  
and programmer?   I'm using GCC and Keil uVision.  So far, I can use  
external USB flashing over DFU and Single Wire Debug (SWD) with an  
STM32 cortex 3 or cortex 4 discovery board, but I would love to make  
this even easier for people.

Which libraries are you using?  So far I am using libopencm3.   
Technically, it is the same as ST's libraries, but it's a  
philosophical choice :)  And I know you're using JUCE as well...

Did you know that two people have worked a bit toward porting the  
Wirish library from the Cortex M3 to the Cortex M4?   
(https://github.com/gbulmer/openstm32sw) This would be very useful for  
our users.  I hope to look into this project and extend it.

-Noah (http://DIYDSP.com)



-- 
http://diydsp.blogspot.com has wild and wonderful digital music instruments


Quoting Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com>:

>
> I'd be interested in this, and might be able to contribute.
> I'm working at the moment on a project using the STM32F4, and we're  
> making a small, stand-alone digital board that could be re-purposed  
> in many ways.
>
> There's a photo of it here:
> http://hoxtonowl.com/2013/10/new-shipping-estimates-t-shirts-ircam/
>
> It's got an STM32F405, 8Mbit fast SRAM and the WM8731 24bit/96kHz  
> stereo codec, plus lots of break-out headers. And USB a/b for device  
> and host modes. Alas, no LCD!
>
> best,
>
> Martin
>
> On 9 Oct 2013, at 16:56, nvawter at media.mit.edu wrote:
>
>>
>> haha, what timing :)
>>
>> I've been working on something a little like this for the last five  
>> months or so.
>>
>> My take on the world is it's amazing how people are designing all  
>> kinds of new electronic music instruments all the time.  It's just  
>> a shame that it requires so many different disciplines stacked up:  
>> electronics, coding, musicianship, fabrication.  I'm trying to  
>> supply a stable platform of electronics and code that instrument  
>> developers can piggy-back on top of.  That way, they can get in  
>> more hours of interface design, play and performance.
>>
>> Unlike the STM32f4 discovery board, it's small, has headers  
>> organized for musical purposes (dedicated MIDI, analog inputs are  
>> on interchangeable headers) and is completely intended for people  
>> to embed into instruments that they re-sell.  If anyone on this  
>> list would like to know more, get access to information and/or  
>> boards before the general public, please let me know.  I hope to be  
>> posting it here in the next few weeks for more general  
>> feedback/review.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://diydsp.blogspot.com has wild and wonderful digital music instruments
>>
>>
>> Quoting Joel B <onephatcat at earthlink.net>:
>>
>>> Hi, question for the group:
>>>
>>> Does anyone manufacture a prebuilt audio platform with midi  
>>> in/out, multiple audio I/O, input for knobs/buttons/switches and a  
>>> color LCD that can be used for application development, and also  
>>> be sourced later for manufacturing once a viable product is  
>>> complete?
>>>
>>> Not an arduino, but something maybe  more commercial and less DIY oriented?
>>>
>>> Joel
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>




From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Oct 11 21:22:47 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:22:47 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] How does resonance work?
Message-ID: <DUB123-W11413F9938DC0B5829FD62971F0@phx.gbl>

Recently I've started building the Jupiter 8 filter using the IR3109 and also with discrete OTAs. I couldn't get the resonance to work, so I looked at the other implementations of the 3109 in filter circuits. I started wondering:

Is resonance as simple as a VCA in the feedback path of the gain cells?

I know that resonance is an increase in emphasis of the cutoff knee of the filter; the highest frequency you can hear from the LPF. So, although the fundamental frequency of the signal passing through it might be quite low you hear the whooshy self-oscillation as a higher freq.

Please correct/educate me.

Thanks,
Jack 		 	   		  

From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Oct 11 21:28:14 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:28:14 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] How does resonance work?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W11413F9938DC0B5829FD62971F0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W11413F9938DC0B5829FD62971F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W2303AC6D1304683745C940971F0@phx.gbl>

Recently I've started building the Jupiter 8 filter using the IR3109 and also with discrete OTAs. I couldn't
get the resonance to work, so I looked at the other implementations of the 3109 in filter circuits. I started wondering:

? ?Is resonance as simple as a VCA in the feedback path of the gain cells?

I know that resonance is an increase in emphasis of the cutoff knee of the filter; the highest frequency you can hear from the LPF. So, although the fundamental frequency of the signal passing through it might be quite low you hear the whooshy self-oscillation as a higher freq.


Please correct/educate me.


?Thanks,
?Jack 		 	   		  

From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Oct 11 21:49:29 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:49:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] How does resonance work?
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUjW28M5egcPiEODfVw=1DQknM7ByxiJFBALhYCF391dZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W11413F9938DC0B5829FD62971F0@phx.gbl>,
	<CA+9GZUjW28M5egcPiEODfVw=1DQknM7ByxiJFBALhYCF391dZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W1A1CB65C8C7397D0D24CE971F0@phx.gbl>

Thanks,

So a potentiometer wired as a potential divider, or a variable resistor? Also what sort of value do you recommend?

Jack
________________________________
> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 21:43:20 +0200 
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] How does resonance work? 
> From: cheater00 at gmail.com 
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk 
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> 
> 
> Hi Jack, 
> 
> On 11 Oct 2013 21:24, "Jack Jackson" 
> <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk<mailto:jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk>> wrote: 
>> 
>> Recently I've started building the Jupiter 8 filter using the IR3109 
> and also with discrete OTAs. I couldn't get the resonance to work, so I 
> looked at the other implementations of the 3109 in filter circuits. I 
> started wondering: 
>> 
>> Is resonance as simple as a VCA in the feedback path of the gain cells? 
> 
> I assume you're asking about how to build resonance control on a filter 
> via CV. 
> 
>> I know that resonance is an increase in emphasis of the cutoff knee 
> of the filter; the highest frequency you can hear from the LPF. So, 
> although the fundamental frequency of the signal passing through it 
> might be quite low you hear the whooshy self-oscillation as a higher 
> freq. 
> 
> Resonance (the concept, not the knob) happens when a linear system, 
> such as a filter, is put in a feedback loop. 
> 
> A delay with 3 seconds feedback? Yup, that's resonance. Nce. Nce. Nce.. 
> 
> This feedback needs to be controlled somehow. The easiest ways are to 
> make sure there is very little of it (you add a resistor) or that it is 
> limited by a nonlinearity which will clip it (e.g. back-to-back 
> diodes). The resistor can be dynamic. Yup, you guessed it, that'll be a 
> VCA. Or a Vactrol. Or something like that. Control of linear systems is 
> described by a theory in mathematics called control theory. 
> 
> If you do not control the feedback it will grow until it's eaten the 
> full gain*bandwidth product of the system (filter), figuratively using 
> up all of the filter's capability. This happens most often in cheap 
> Behringer mixers in op amps that oscillate at 1 MHz eating up the 
> channel's headroom. In filters that's called "self-oscillation", in 
> mixers its called "why is the lowest light in the LED bar always on". 
> 
> I suggest you first try your luck with a potentiometer and only then 
> try for voltage control. 
> 
> Cheers, 
> D. 		 	   		  

From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Oct 11 23:27:15 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 22:27:15 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] How does resonance work?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W11413F9938DC0B5829FD62971F0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W11413F9938DC0B5829FD62971F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1AD332F3-C4E4-46E4-950F-E30ECB488A41@electricdruid.net>

It's sort-of simple, and sort-of not.

The simple bit is that if you have positive feedback, you get resonance. That positive feedback could just be a pot sending some of the signal back to the input.

The not-so-simple bit is that the feedback needs to be positive - e.g. it needs to be in phase with the input. With a filter, this isn't often as obvious as it sounds. There are phase shifts through the filter stages that might well require that the the feedback be *inverted* in order to produce resonance.

Once you've got positive feedback and resonance, you can control it with a pot, or a VCA, or a Vactrol or whatever other volume control element takes your fancy.

There's nothing special about VCAs. They appear in the classic synth schematics because they allow programmability, not for any other reason. If you look at classic monosynths before programability, you'll find lots with a simple pot for the resonance.

HTH,
Tom


On 11 Oct 2013, at 20:22, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Recently I've started building the Jupiter 8 filter using the IR3109 and also with discrete OTAs. I couldn't get the resonance to work, so I looked at the other implementations of the 3109 in filter circuits. I started wondering:
> 
> Is resonance as simple as a VCA in the feedback path of the gain cells?
> 
> I know that resonance is an increase in emphasis of the cutoff knee of the filter; the highest frequency you can hear from the LPF. So, although the fundamental frequency of the signal passing through it might be quite low you hear the whooshy self-oscillation as a higher freq.
> 
> Please correct/educate me.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sat Oct 12 00:47:35 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:47:35 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] How does resonance work?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W11413F9938DC0B5829FD62971F0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W11413F9938DC0B5829FD62971F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CE54AB2FF9094AA7A9B0460F9A8EEF0F@galvanox01>

> Recently I've started building the Jupiter 8 filter using the 
> IR3109 and also with discrete OTAs. I couldn't get the 
> resonance to work, so I looked at the other implementations 
> of the 3109 in filter circuits. I started wondering:
> 
> Is resonance as simple as a VCA in the feedback path of the 
> gain cells?
> 
> I know that resonance is an increase in emphasis of the 
> cutoff knee of the filter; the highest frequency you can hear 
> from the LPF. So, although the fundamental frequency of the 
> signal passing through it might be quite low you hear the 
> whooshy self-oscillation as a higher freq.
> 
> Please correct/educate me.

To understand the resonance of any filter circuit, you really need to have
the transfer function for that circuit.

Resonance emphasizes the cutoff frequency.  This is not the highest
frequency you can hear from the LPF.  It is the frequency which is 6dB down
at zero resonance.

Resonance works by decreasing the denominator of the transfer function.  At
a certain amount of loop gain, the denominator goes to zero.  At this point,
the filter self-oscillates.

As an example, here is the transfer function for a 24dB cascaded-stage
(Roland-style) filter:

V_out/V_in = 1/[(s+1)^4+G] 

           = 1/[s^4 + 4s^3 + 6s^2 + 4s + 1 + G] 

           = 1/[(w^4 - 6w^2 + 1 + G) + j(4w - 4w^3)]

where s = the Laplace variable, G = loop gain, j = the imaginary number
(root -1), and w (omega) = f/f_Cutoff.

Note that, at the cutoff frequency, w = 1.  Hence, at a loop gain of G = 4,
the transfer function becomes:

V_out/V_in = 1/[(1 - 6 + 1 + 4) + j(4 - 4)] = 1/0 = infinity.

This means that a "pole" (an infinity) is at the cutoff frequency along the
imaginary axis, which is when a filter self-oscillates.

Other filters have other transfer functions, and other conditions for
self-oscillation.



From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Sat Oct 12 00:57:42 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (MTG)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:57:42 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] TI  Tre
In-Reply-To: <52587C2C.50809@jps.net>
References: <52587C2C.50809@jps.net>
Message-ID: <52588266.8070005@musictechnologiesgroup.com>

With all this talk of boards and platform...

http://www.elektor.com/Uploads/2013/10/Arduino-Tre-610x407.jpg

GB

"With the millionth Raspberry Pi rolling off the assembly line, major
chip manufacturers are beginning to take the hardware hacker community
seriously. Following Intel?s launch of its Arduino Galileo board,
Arduino have announced an alliance with TI to produce the Tre.

The board is made up of two systems; the central white silk screened
area the size of an Arduino Uno has an 16 MHz Atmel ATmega32u4 with 32
KB flash, 2.5 KB SRAM and 1 KB EEPROM. Pin sockets accept standard
Arduino shields and two 10-way connector strips take a Digi XBee
wireless card. It has 14 digital I/Os, 7 PWM outputs and 6 (+ 6
multiplexed) analog inputs.

***
Making up the rest of the board is a TI Sitara AM335x ARM Cortex-A8
processor capable of running full Linux. This chip also has two 200 MHz
32-bit Programmable Real-time Unit (PRU) microcontrollers. Running at 1
GHz the Sitara is a tad faster than the RPi?s 700 MHz ARM11 processor.
It has 512 MB (DDR3L) on-board RAM and a micro SD slot. Connectivity
options include 4 USB 2.0 ports and 1 USB 2.0 client, an Ethernet 10/100 
port, HDMI display, SPI, CAN, UART and 3.3 V I/Os.
***

This is a powerful platform and forms a complete development environment 
for the Arduino. The board will be available in the spring of 2014, 
price TBA."





From mars at pingdynasty.com  Sat Oct 12 18:01:15 2013
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 17:01:15 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
	<20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>


On 11 Oct 2013, at 19:42, nvawter at media.mit.edu wrote:

> Ah yes, I supported that/your kickstarter campaign for The Owl!   I think it's going to be great.  Like I repeat to everyone I meet, the stm32f4 is definitely a significant step forward for embedded digital music instruments due to its hardware floating-point unit.

nice one - thanks!

> I've been hoping that my project, MOBB, can share plenty of software with the Owl.  I truly believe that we're about to see a growth in digital musical instruments which have their roots in pre-sedentary musical instrument design, rather than being incidental "applications" of personal computers.
> 
> Thanks for showing what your hardware looks like.  My HW is slightly different.  It is more minimalist, with fewer peripherals built into it.
> 
> What is your software development environment like?  Which compiler and programmer?   I'm using GCC and Keil uVision.  So far, I can use external USB flashing over DFU and Single Wire Debug (SWD) with an STM32 cortex 3 or cortex 4 discovery board, but I would love to make this even easier for people.

We currently use arm-gcc and the CMSIS libraries. Would like to move to libopencm3 before we go public with the code, but when we started out they were still missing support for a few functions that we needed.

I do a lot of debugging over SWD using st-util, which is great with gdb.
We've now also implemented a function to bring the device into DFU mode, so that users can easily load a new firmware image over USB.

> Which libraries are you using?  So far I am using libopencm3.  Technically, it is the same as ST's libraries, but it's a philosophical choice :)  And I know you're using JUCE as well...

yes, JUCE for all client-side stuff.

> Did you know that two people have worked a bit toward porting the Wirish library from the Cortex M3 to the Cortex M4?  (https://github.com/gbulmer/openstm32sw) This would be very useful for our users.  I hope to look into this project and extend it.

Didn't know that, I'll take a look now!

cheers,

Martin

From onephatcat at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 12 23:15:31 2013
From: onephatcat at earthlink.net (Joel B)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:15:31 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
	<20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>
Message-ID: <4DBA3FCD-ECB3-41DB-9F15-E94B525A695B@earthlink.net>

Question, these DSP processors - are they a better choice than the Arm Cortex/neon for music? Wondering since companies like apple are using the Cortex series. Is it a price/performance thing?

Joel

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
> 
> stm32f4


From ebrombaugh1 at cox.net  Sat Oct 12 23:21:36 2013
From: ebrombaugh1 at cox.net (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:21:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <cMGQ1m00X4AXc3W01MGUG1>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
	<20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>
	<cMGQ1m00X4AXc3W01MGUG1>
Message-ID: <6F70ED8D-B4F3-4FB2-AFB5-D14A9F3BDF4E@cox.net>

STM32F4xx is an ARM Cortex M4F processor. It doesn't have the NEON extensions used in the Apple devices, but it is fairly good for DSP. For best DSP throughput though, get a true DSP that has multiple operand buses, address generation units and single-cycle MAC operations.

Eric

On Oct 12, 2013, at 2:15 PM, Joel B wrote:

> Question, these DSP processors - are they a better choice than the Arm Cortex/neon for music? Wondering since companies like apple are using the Cortex series. Is it a price/performance thing?
> 
>> On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>> 
>> stm32f4



From rsdio at sounds.wa.com  Sun Oct 13 00:42:36 2013
From: rsdio at sounds.wa.com (rsdio at sounds.wa.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:42:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <4DBA3FCD-ECB3-41DB-9F15-E94B525A695B@earthlink.net>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
	<20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>
	<4DBA3FCD-ECB3-41DB-9F15-E94B525A695B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E7323FF7-3BD0-4D9E-BDA3-61E4E1DD7141@sounds.wa.com>

Apple is not making a device that is primarily geared towards audio.  
They're making a general purpose device that does GPS, compass, cell  
(voice and networking), wireless networking, touch, massive GUI for  
endless possibilities in applications, and then also audio and voice  
recorder type features - all on top of a fairly sophisticated mobile  
operating system. It makes way more sense to use a general purpose  
processor like the ARM for that long list of features, rather than  
just specializing on one or two specific features.

But a couple of DSP opcodes in an ARM variant does not make those  
chips perform like a dedicated DSP, which has much more silicon  
dedicated to high performance of a particular kind. If you want to  
focus on audio, then a DSP makes the most sense. There are even some  
DSP chips, like the TMS320 C55xx family, that have USB and other  
hardware support that allow them to handle a display and basic  
interface tasks while primarily devoting the bulk of the power to  
signal processing.


Apple does have to worry about performance because they're a battery- 
powered mobile platform. But the fact that they're doing many things  
means that they need a processor that does reasonably well at a wide  
variety of things.

For an audio hardware platform, battery power might not be as  
important, since adaptors can usually be attached for power. But  
there's still some importance for performance, especially if you want  
to do a lot of effects without needing a high-wattage supply. The  
nice thing is that a good DSP can do more audio processing than a  
full-on computer (laptop or desktop) using far less power.


As for price, a well-designed DSP like the TMS320 is actually much  
cheaper than an FPGA chip when you really start doing complicated  
processing. DSP chips are very competitive with ARM on price, so I  
don't think anyone would choose ARM just to save money. The AVR can  
go lower in price, but the AVR cannot handle as much as the ARM or a  
DSP, so that particular choice is a price/performance tradeoff.

Brian Willoughby
Sound Consulting

p.s. I just discovered the XMOS chip, and that company has a few  
interesting platforms for development. I just saw the XK-USB-AUDIO- 
U8-2C, which actually has on-board MIDI I/O connectors along with  
stereo audio I/O and, of course, USB. There may be a plug-in board  
for an LCD, but I've not really studied their offerings. They do have  
a multi-channel audio I/O version, but that one does not have MIDI.  
They also have mini-board that plug in to the various main boards,  
adding optional peripheral I/O. As for something that can be sourced  
later for manufacturing, I think the XMOS development platforms show  
how there are just too many variations for anyone to make exactly  
what you want - it's a shame that their MIDI board is only stereo,  
while their multichannel audio board has no MIDI. I still think it's  
necessary to prototype on a generic board with added options, but  
then pay to have a purpose-built PCB made that fits your product  
enclosure and has exactly the I/O you need, no more and no less.


On Oct 12, 2013, at 14:15, Joel B wrote:
> Question, these DSP processors - are they a better choice than the  
> Arm Cortex/neon for music? Wondering since companies like apple are  
> using the Cortex series. Is it a price/performance thing?
>
> Joel
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com>  
>> wrote:
>> stm32f4




From djthomaswhite at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 13 04:16:29 2013
From: djthomaswhite at yahoo.com (Thomas White)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 19:16:29 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] FS: Mooger Fooger Freq Box MF-107
Message-ID: <44CDC9E1-A996-4E99-988B-36089D1C0A53@yahoo.com>

Whitewash or Walnut sides. I have official sets of both from Moog. Shelf use only, no sweaty gigs under feet. Like new. Not a scratch. Sells new for $318. List special of $275 shipped. Contact privately if interested or want photos. Comes with original box packaging, manual and power supply. 

Thomas White
Natural Rhythm Music
www.naturalrhythmmusic.com

From mbedtom at gmail.com  Sun Oct 13 09:52:19 2013
From: mbedtom at gmail.com (Tom Farrand)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 02:52:19 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <E7323FF7-3BD0-4D9E-BDA3-61E4E1DD7141@sounds.wa.com>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
	<20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>
	<4DBA3FCD-ECB3-41DB-9F15-E94B525A695B@earthlink.net>
	<E7323FF7-3BD0-4D9E-BDA3-61E4E1DD7141@sounds.wa.com>
Message-ID: <CAGYZNz9qsmZ6CHYh=crqhKm9Jhn27YTAddeoouurCFjTb=+VeA@mail.gmail.com>

A floating-point DSP in an audio hardware platform seems a natural,
yeah?  Well, yes and no.

H/W Cost and Complexity:
The first thing I think of when I hear "DSP" is "BGA".  Many of the
more capable DSPs seem to only be available in ball grid array
packages.  What's the problem?  For one, it often takes a six-layer
PCB to jailbreak all of the balls to fully utilize the part.  Six
layer boards are expensive to buy in prototype quantities.  The
initial cash outlay to get something off the ground is very
substantial.

Coding it up:
The universe of people who can craft the requisite software for a DSP
is probably smaller than the universe of people who can craft the
requisite software for other compute platforms.

Time:
To design such a platform and debug it, and then craft the software
for it, will take a long time.  It is possible that by the time this
all comes together, a better widget might then exist that can be
"bent" to serve the need even better.  All that effort and cost
expended thus far could be for naught.  Ouch.

Obsolescence:
DSPs come and go rather a bit faster than I am comfortable with.  If
commercial market demand for the magic DSP part chosen for this audio
gizmotron shrinks, the part can evaporate overnight.  The realistic
approach is to not find the "ideal" compute elements but to find
acceptable compute elements that will have a lifetime that
significantly exceeds the time it takes to get some working software.


My $0.02:
1) Obtain some consensus on what the end platform shall do.  At this
point, don't define "how" something is to be done, define only the
"what".

2) Next, detail which software functions are required to implement the
functionality the end platform is to provide.  It is essential to know
(and document) what you want to do before deciding on how to best do
it.  Write the code comments at this point, which explains how the
required things are accomplished.  Don't write the code yet ... just
the comments and function headers.

3) Buy off-the-shelf hardware that is capable of hosting the software
functions required.  Don't design new hardware for the whole damned
thing.  Buy the complex pieces off-the-shelf and custom design only
the bits of glue or peripherals minimally necessary to carry out those
functions not natively provided on the off-the-shelf boards.  Keep the
design of custom bits straightforward and as simple as possible.  Now,
write the code to match the comments documented previously.

4) Get ugly ... fast.  Identify risk elements early on and pull the
plug on the things that are proving to be unrealistic for time or cost
reasons.  You might have to go back to the point of asking "Is this
still worth doing if we can't provide function 'x'?"  Better to know
that on day 17 instead of day 308.

Peace.
Tom Farrand









On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 5:42 PM,  <rsdio at sounds.wa.com> wrote:
> Apple is not making a device that is primarily geared towards audio. They're
> making a general purpose device that does GPS, compass, cell (voice and
> networking), wireless networking, touch, massive GUI for endless
> possibilities in applications, and then also audio and voice recorder type
> features - all on top of a fairly sophisticated mobile operating system. It
> makes way more sense to use a general purpose processor like the ARM for
> that long list of features, rather than just specializing on one or two
> specific features.
>
> But a couple of DSP opcodes in an ARM variant does not make those chips
> perform like a dedicated DSP, which has much more silicon dedicated to high
> performance of a particular kind. If you want to focus on audio, then a DSP
> makes the most sense. There are even some DSP chips, like the TMS320 C55xx
> family, that have USB and other hardware support that allow them to handle a
> display and basic interface tasks while primarily devoting the bulk of the
> power to signal processing.
>
>
> Apple does have to worry about performance because they're a battery-powered
> mobile platform. But the fact that they're doing many things means that they
> need a processor that does reasonably well at a wide variety of things.
>
> For an audio hardware platform, battery power might not be as important,
> since adaptors can usually be attached for power. But there's still some
> importance for performance, especially if you want to do a lot of effects
> without needing a high-wattage supply. The nice thing is that a good DSP can
> do more audio processing than a full-on computer (laptop or desktop) using
> far less power.
>
>
> As for price, a well-designed DSP like the TMS320 is actually much cheaper
> than an FPGA chip when you really start doing complicated processing. DSP
> chips are very competitive with ARM on price, so I don't think anyone would
> choose ARM just to save money. The AVR can go lower in price, but the AVR
> cannot handle as much as the ARM or a DSP, so that particular choice is a
> price/performance tradeoff.
>
> Brian Willoughby
> Sound Consulting
>
> p.s. I just discovered the XMOS chip, and that company has a few interesting
> platforms for development. I just saw the XK-USB-AUDIO-U8-2C, which actually
> has on-board MIDI I/O connectors along with stereo audio I/O and, of course,
> USB. There may be a plug-in board for an LCD, but I've not really studied
> their offerings. They do have a multi-channel audio I/O version, but that
> one does not have MIDI. They also have mini-board that plug in to the
> various main boards, adding optional peripheral I/O. As for something that
> can be sourced later for manufacturing, I think the XMOS development
> platforms show how there are just too many variations for anyone to make
> exactly what you want - it's a shame that their MIDI board is only stereo,
> while their multichannel audio board has no MIDI. I still think it's
> necessary to prototype on a generic board with added options, but then pay
> to have a purpose-built PCB made that fits your product enclosure and has
> exactly the I/O you need, no more and no less.
>
>
>
> On Oct 12, 2013, at 14:15, Joel B wrote:
>>
>> Question, these DSP processors - are they a better choice than the Arm
>> Cortex/neon for music? Wondering since companies like apple are using the
>> Cortex series. Is it a price/performance thing?
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>>> stm32f4
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From thomas at pdp7.org  Sun Oct 13 13:54:07 2013
From: thomas at pdp7.org (Thomas Strathmann)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 13:54:07 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <CAGYZNz9qsmZ6CHYh=crqhKm9Jhn27YTAddeoouurCFjTb=+VeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>	<20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>	<D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>	<4DBA3FCD-ECB3-41DB-9F15-E94B525A695B@earthlink.net>	<E7323FF7-3BD0-4D9E-BDA3-61E4E1DD7141@sounds.wa.com>
	<CAGYZNz9qsmZ6CHYh=crqhKm9Jhn27YTAddeoouurCFjTb=+VeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <525A89DF.8050602@pdp7.org>

On 13.10.13 09:52, Tom Farrand wrote:
> 3) Buy off-the-shelf hardware that is capable of hosting the software
> functions required.  Don't design new hardware for the whole damned
> thing.  Buy the complex pieces off-the-shelf and custom design only
> the bits of glue or peripherals minimally necessary to carry out those
> functions not natively provided on the off-the-shelf boards.  Keep the
> design of custom bits straightforward and as simple as possible.  Now,
> write the code to match the comments documented previously.

This! I've seen projects fail because the majority of the development
team did not heed this advice. But it is true for both software and
hardware. When it comes to sofware I would probably not start by
designing at the level of individual procedurers or even concrete data
structures but use something like a flow-chart or other types of
diagrams. Maybe do a sort of prototype in a high-level (visual)
language. But I guess the most important thing is to sit down with the
intent of not writing code but solving a problem by breaking it down
into manageable chunks and only later executing the plan that you came
up with during this planning stage. Not doing this is another reason why
development projects fail (especially if there is more than one person
involved).

	Thomas


From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 13 16:01:25 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:01:25 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <CAGYZNz9qsmZ6CHYh=crqhKm9Jhn27YTAddeoouurCFjTb=+VeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
	<20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>
	<4DBA3FCD-ECB3-41DB-9F15-E94B525A695B@earthlink.net>
	<E7323FF7-3BD0-4D9E-BDA3-61E4E1DD7141@sounds.wa.com>
	<CAGYZNz9qsmZ6CHYh=crqhKm9Jhn27YTAddeoouurCFjTb=+VeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY405-EAS270EAD0CF4F563DB73DFE45C8190@phx.gbl>

great post !!! very informative

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 13, 2013, at 3:54 AM, "Tom Farrand" <mbedtom at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> A floating-point DSP in an audio hardware platform seems a natural,
> yeah?  Well, yes and no.
> 
> H/W Cost and Complexity:
> The first thing I think of when I hear "DSP" is "BGA".  Many of the
> more capable DSPs seem to only be available in ball grid array
> packages.  What's the problem?  For one, it often takes a six-layer
> PCB to jailbreak all of the balls to fully utilize the part.  Six
> layer boards are expensive to buy in prototype quantities.  The
> initial cash outlay to get something off the ground is very
> substantial.
> 
> Coding it up:
> The universe of people who can craft the requisite software for a DSP
> is probably smaller than the universe of people who can craft the
> requisite software for other compute platforms.
> 
> Time:
> To design such a platform and debug it, and then craft the software
> for it, will take a long time.  It is possible that by the time this
> all comes together, a better widget might then exist that can be
> "bent" to serve the need even better.  All that effort and cost
> expended thus far could be for naught.  Ouch.
> 
> Obsolescence:
> DSPs come and go rather a bit faster than I am comfortable with.  If
> commercial market demand for the magic DSP part chosen for this audio
> gizmotron shrinks, the part can evaporate overnight.  The realistic
> approach is to not find the "ideal" compute elements but to find
> acceptable compute elements that will have a lifetime that
> significantly exceeds the time it takes to get some working software.
> 
> 
> My $0.02:
> 1) Obtain some consensus on what the end platform shall do.  At this
> point, don't define "how" something is to be done, define only the
> "what".
> 
> 2) Next, detail which software functions are required to implement the
> functionality the end platform is to provide.  It is essential to know
> (and document) what you want to do before deciding on how to best do
> it.  Write the code comments at this point, which explains how the
> required things are accomplished.  Don't write the code yet ... just
> the comments and function headers.
> 
> 3) Buy off-the-shelf hardware that is capable of hosting the software
> functions required.  Don't design new hardware for the whole damned
> thing.  Buy the complex pieces off-the-shelf and custom design only
> the bits of glue or peripherals minimally necessary to carry out those
> functions not natively provided on the off-the-shelf boards.  Keep the
> design of custom bits straightforward and as simple as possible.  Now,
> write the code to match the comments documented previously.
> 
> 4) Get ugly ... fast.  Identify risk elements early on and pull the
> plug on the things that are proving to be unrealistic for time or cost
> reasons.  You might have to go back to the point of asking "Is this
> still worth doing if we can't provide function 'x'?"  Better to know
> that on day 17 instead of day 308.
> 
> Peace.
> Tom Farrand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 5:42 PM,  <rsdio at sounds.wa.com> wrote:
>> Apple is not making a device that is primarily geared towards audio. They're
>> making a general purpose device that does GPS, compass, cell (voice and
>> networking), wireless networking, touch, massive GUI for endless
>> possibilities in applications, and then also audio and voice recorder type
>> features - all on top of a fairly sophisticated mobile operating system. It
>> makes way more sense to use a general purpose processor like the ARM for
>> that long list of features, rather than just specializing on one or two
>> specific features.
>> 
>> But a couple of DSP opcodes in an ARM variant does not make those chips
>> perform like a dedicated DSP, which has much more silicon dedicated to high
>> performance of a particular kind. If you want to focus on audio, then a DSP
>> makes the most sense. There are even some DSP chips, like the TMS320 C55xx
>> family, that have USB and other hardware support that allow them to handle a
>> display and basic interface tasks while primarily devoting the bulk of the
>> power to signal processing.
>> 
>> 
>> Apple does have to worry about performance because they're a battery-powered
>> mobile platform. But the fact that they're doing many things means that they
>> need a processor that does reasonably well at a wide variety of things.
>> 
>> For an audio hardware platform, battery power might not be as important,
>> since adaptors can usually be attached for power. But there's still some
>> importance for performance, especially if you want to do a lot of effects
>> without needing a high-wattage supply. The nice thing is that a good DSP can
>> do more audio processing than a full-on computer (laptop or desktop) using
>> far less power.
>> 
>> 
>> As for price, a well-designed DSP like the TMS320 is actually much cheaper
>> than an FPGA chip when you really start doing complicated processing. DSP
>> chips are very competitive with ARM on price, so I don't think anyone would
>> choose ARM just to save money. The AVR can go lower in price, but the AVR
>> cannot handle as much as the ARM or a DSP, so that particular choice is a
>> price/performance tradeoff.
>> 
>> Brian Willoughby
>> Sound Consulting
>> 
>> p.s. I just discovered the XMOS chip, and that company has a few interesting
>> platforms for development. I just saw the XK-USB-AUDIO-U8-2C, which actually
>> has on-board MIDI I/O connectors along with stereo audio I/O and, of course,
>> USB. There may be a plug-in board for an LCD, but I've not really studied
>> their offerings. They do have a multi-channel audio I/O version, but that
>> one does not have MIDI. They also have mini-board that plug in to the
>> various main boards, adding optional peripheral I/O. As for something that
>> can be sourced later for manufacturing, I think the XMOS development
>> platforms show how there are just too many variations for anyone to make
>> exactly what you want - it's a shame that their MIDI board is only stereo,
>> while their multichannel audio board has no MIDI. I still think it's
>> necessary to prototype on a generic board with added options, but then pay
>> to have a purpose-built PCB made that fits your product enclosure and has
>> exactly the I/O you need, no more and no less.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 12, 2013, at 14:15, Joel B wrote:
>>> 
>>> Question, these DSP processors - are they a better choice than the Arm
>>> Cortex/neon for music? Wondering since companies like apple are using the
>>> Cortex series. Is it a price/performance thing?
>>> 
>>> Joel
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:01 AM, Martin Klang <mars at pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>>>> stm32f4
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From aym-htnys at teaser.fr  Mon Oct 14 14:13:04 2013
From: aym-htnys at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:13:04 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] C0G/NP0 caps for VCOs
Message-ID: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>

I don't know what you folks have been using for VCOs lately but
these look like a pretty good substitute for polystyrene
capacitors :

  Samsung CL31C124JOHNNNE
  120 nF 16 V
  1206

  Data sheet :
  http://www.samsungsem.com/servlet/FileDownload?type=spec&file=CL31C124JOHNNNE.pdf

  0.70 USD from Digi-Key
  http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CL31C124JOHNNNE/1276-3213-1-ND/3891299

The data sheet doesn't seem to say anything about dielectric
absorption though...

-- 
Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 14 14:19:27 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:19:27 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] C0G/NP0 caps for VCOs
In-Reply-To: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
References: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxK=qjpJVofcuJVRDN2tVH3rE6PVuQF0NGVLrKfc+ZGxtA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Andre.

> I don't know what you folks have been using for VCOs lately but
> these look like a pretty good substitute for polystyrene
> capacitors :
>
>   Samsung CL31C124JOHNNNE
>   120 nF 16 V

Maybe a bit large for an audio-rate VCO perhaps?  Typical values for
audio range would be hundreds of pF, maybe 1n0.

Good for a VCLFO though - the DuaLFO uses 100nF to cover the range
~90uHz to 45Hz.

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Oct 14 15:10:59 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:10:59 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
Message-ID: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>

Hey chaps,

any idea what this capacitor type/value in the Jupiter 8 resonance circuit is? On the schematic it's listed as .47/50 BP. I'm guessing BP stands for bipolar, but I thought electrolytics were polarised ,not bipolar. At any rate the cap looks like an electrolytic from a photo of the module board I have, and the silkscreen of the module board would seem to confirm the one in the photo is indeed C44.

Also are the green blobs in the photos Mylar caps?

Here's an image with all three reference points:

http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/userpix/10914_capres_1.png 		 	   		  

From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 14 15:13:06 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:13:06 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>

As I just posted on MW:

0.47uF 50V. And yes, some electrolytics are bipolar.
The green caps are most likely Mylar (which is just a trade name for a
cheap polyeter).

Neil

On 14 October 2013 14:10, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Hey chaps,
>
> any idea what this capacitor type/value in the Jupiter 8 resonance circuit is? On the schematic it's listed as .47/50 BP. I'm guessing BP stands for bipolar, but I thought electrolytics were polarised ,not bipolar. At any rate the cap looks like an electrolytic from a photo of the module board I have, and the silkscreen of the module board would seem to confirm the one in the photo is indeed C44.
>
> Also are the green blobs in the photos Mylar caps?
>
> Here's an image with all three reference points:
>
> http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/userpix/10914_capres_1.png
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Oct 14 15:30:57 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:30:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>,
	<CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>

Thanks. Is the 50v an important factor here, or was it just specified so people wouldn't use something too low like 16v for example? I've found some cheap 100v ones here.?
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/rbd030-047uf-100vdc-elna-bipolar-capacitors-p-9449.html

Also why they choose to use an electrolytic over a polyester?

Cheers,
Jack
---------------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:13:06 +0100
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
> From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>
> As I just posted on MW:
>
> 0.47uF 50V. And yes, some electrolytics are bipolar.
> The green caps are most likely Mylar (which is just a trade name for a
> cheap polyeter).
>
> Neil
>
> On 14 October 2013 14:10, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hey chaps,
>>
>> any idea what this capacitor type/value in the Jupiter 8 resonance circuit is? On the schematic it's listed as .47/50 BP. I'm guessing BP stands for bipolar, but I thought electrolytics were polarised ,not bipolar. At any rate the cap looks like an electrolytic from a photo of the module board I have, and the silkscreen of the module board would seem to confirm the one in the photo is indeed C44.
>>
>> Also are the green blobs in the photos Mylar caps?
>>
>> Here's an image with all three reference points:
>>
>> http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/userpix/10914_capres_1.png
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
>
> --
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk 		 	   		  

From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 14 15:35:42 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:35:42 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+8UpMyqGNm=QOWu6uB2Gdepwv4mq1oL9yzpuK+BcL=ow@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Jack Jackson wrote:
> Thanks. Is the 50v an important factor here, or was it just specified so people wouldn't use something too low like 16v for example? I've found some cheap 100v ones here.
> http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/rbd030-047uf-100vdc-elna-bipolar-capacitors-p-9449.html

It depends. Maybe that's what they had in stock?  Maybe that's what
was on special at the time?  You need to understand the circuit to see
what the maximum voltage across it could be, including startup and
shutdown conditions, and possible latchup.  The voltage rating will
also affect the case size, and also other electrical parameters like
ESR.

> Also why they choose to use an electrolytic over a polyester?

Cheaper?? Smaller?? Adds to the J8 "sound"??  Dunno.  Try replacing it
with a polyester and hear what the difference is.

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From tom at electricdruid.net  Mon Oct 14 16:23:05 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:23:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>,
	<CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <560F315A-220A-4FE6-944C-8270AB3B1D2C@electricdruid.net>

Hi Jack,

> Thanks. Is the 50v an important factor here, or was it just specified so people wouldn't use something too low like 16v for example? I've found some cheap 100v ones here. 
> http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/rbd030-047uf-100vdc-elna-bipolar-capacitors-p-9449.html

If the schematic says 50V, we have to assume that they worked it out, taking all the factors that Neil mentioned into account, then added what they thought was a reasonable margin of error*. So anything >=50V should be fine. Sometimes higher voltage caps have a difference tolerance, so you might consider that - a 50V part might be 5%, but the 100V part might be 10%.

> Also why they choose to use an electrolytic over a polyester?

What Neil said. It was what they had, or what they could get cheap, or what would fit in the space left on the PCB. Whatever it was, I'd bet money it wasn't because someone thought it sounded better. If it does, that's a happy accident.

HTH,
Tom



From rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk  Mon Oct 14 16:33:57 2013
From: rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk (Rob Keeble)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:33:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMx+8UpMyqGNm=QOWu6uB2Gdepwv4mq1oL9yzpuK+BcL=ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMx+8UpMyqGNm=QOWu6uB2Gdepwv4mq1oL9yzpuK+BcL=ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9FB95DD4-B593-40D3-AD2C-3FCAF1AF1CEB@amsynths.co.uk>

Hi
I use high quality 1uf polarised capacitors here, as in the AM8109 Eurorack module. Can be any voltage above 16v, I use25v to keen the size down.

Rob

> On 14 Oct 2013, at 14:35, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Jack Jackson wrote:
>> Thanks. Is the 50v an important factor here, or was it just specified so people wouldn't use something too low like 16v for example? I've found some cheap 100v ones here.
>> http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/rbd030-047uf-100vdc-elna-bipolar-capacitors-p-9449.html
> 
> It depends. Maybe that's what they had in stock?  Maybe that's what
> was on special at the time?  You need to understand the circuit to see
> what the maximum voltage across it could be, including startup and
> shutdown conditions, and possible latchup.  The voltage rating will
> also affect the case size, and also other electrical parameters like
> ESR.
> 
>> Also why they choose to use an electrolytic over a polyester?
> 
> Cheaper?? Smaller?? Adds to the J8 "sound"??  Dunno.  Try replacing it
> with a polyester and hear what the difference is.
> 
> Neil
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Mon Oct 14 16:52:30 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:52:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
Message-ID: <sw15nfmhvy13v3mxp9ttablm.1381762350277@email.android.com>

Often electrolytic capacitors are chosen with a higher than necessary voltage rating to meet a DC leakage current spec at the operating voltage. I think higher voltage electrolytics are formed with a thicker oxide layer. As someone else said, it also affects ESR too, and Lowest-ESR isn't always bestest.

-Richie,

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia ray

Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:

>Hi Jack,
>
>> Thanks. Is the 50v an important factor here, or was it just specified so people wouldn't use something too low like 16v for example? I've found some cheap 100v ones here. 
>> http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/rbd030-047uf-100vdc-elna-bipolar-capacitors-p-9449.html
>
>If the schematic says 50V, we have to assume that they worked it out, taking all the factors that Neil mentioned into account, then added what they thought was a reasonable margin of error*. So anything >=50V should be fine. Sometimes higher voltage caps have a difference tolerance, so you might consider that - a 50V part might be 5%, but the 100V part might be 10%.
>
>> Also why they choose to use an electrolytic over a polyester?
>
>What Neil said. It was what they had, or what they could get cheap, or what would fit in the space left on the PCB. Whatever it was, I'd bet money it wasn't because someone thought it sounded better. If it does, that's a happy accident.
>
>HTH,
>Tom
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

From ijfritz at comcast.net  Mon Oct 14 18:12:07 2013
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:12:07 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] C0G/NP0 caps for VCOs
In-Reply-To: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
References: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20131014101015.04eb2718@mail.comcast.net>

At 06:13 AM 10/14/2013, Andre Majorel wrote:
>I don't know what you folks have been using for VCOs lately but
>these look like a pretty good substitute for polystyrene
>capacitors :

Most of us have been using COG/NP0 for many years now.  I did careful 
comparisons in high-performance VCOs and didn't see any difference from PS.

Ian 



From rsdio at sounds.wa.com  Mon Oct 14 18:24:16 2013
From: rsdio at sounds.wa.com (rsdio at sounds.wa.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 09:24:16 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] C0G/NP0 caps for VCOs
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20131014101015.04eb2718@mail.comcast.net>
References: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131014101015.04eb2718@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4A1727A5-5C45-4B49-B495-D17608DEE735@sounds.wa.com>

At 06:13 AM 10/14/2013, Andre Majorel wrote:
> I don't know what you folks have been using for VCOs lately but
> these look like a pretty good substitute for polystyrene
> capacitors :
What makes you think they'd particularly be good substitutes for  
polystyrene? I thought that the primary benefit of poly was the low  
self-absorption, so it seems like we'd need data on that to know.


On Oct 14, 2013, at 09:12, Ian Fritz wrote:
> Most of us have been using COG/NP0 for many years now.  I did  
> careful comparisons in high-performance VCOs and didn't see any  
> difference from PS.

What about for sample & hold circuits? I'm thinking that poly is  
really only critical for S&H, maybe less so for VCO. The last S&H  
that I designed has a PCB with multi-site pads for either poly (only  
available in through-hole) or C0G (1206), but I've only ever  
populated with the poly. The layout is nice, because the through-hole  
are as close as they can be anyway, but there's still room for the  
SMD pads in between. Only thing missing is that I haven't fully  
populated a board with the C0G to test performance. The S&H certainly  
works with C0G, but I have a 125 kHz update rate. I don't know how  
well it would work with the much slower update rate of like 100 Hz  
that you find on a hybrid synth with digital-controlled CV.

Brian Willoughby
Sound Consulting



From wackyvorlon at me.com  Mon Oct 14 18:40:34 2013
From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:40:34 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] C0G/NP0 caps for VCOs
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20131014101015.04eb2718@mail.comcast.net>
References: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131014101015.04eb2718@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <73EE127D-CD08-45D7-BC4F-743B2BF547AB@me.com>

NP0's see a lot of use in ham radio circuits. Without them, sometimes the oscillator will refuse to start. Oscillators are strange and temperamental beasts. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 14, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Ian Fritz <ijfritz at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> At 06:13 AM 10/14/2013, Andre Majorel wrote:
>> I don't know what you folks have been using for VCOs lately but
>> these look like a pretty good substitute for polystyrene
>> capacitors :
> 
> Most of us have been using COG/NP0 for many years now.  I did careful comparisons in high-performance VCOs and didn't see any difference from PS.
> 
> Ian 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Mon Oct 14 19:29:50 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:29:50 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] C0G/NP0 caps for VCOs
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxK=qjpJVofcuJVRDN2tVH3rE6PVuQF0NGVLrKfc+ZGxtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
	<CACZGMxK=qjpJVofcuJVRDN2tVH3rE6PVuQF0NGVLrKfc+ZGxtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E714848CD47442F96D9C4BD83757A09@galvanox01>

> > I don't know what you folks have been using for VCOs lately 
> but these 
> > look like a pretty good substitute for polystyrene capacitors :
> >
> >   Samsung CL31C124JOHNNNE
> >   120 nF 16 V
> 
> Maybe a bit large for an audio-rate VCO perhaps?  Typical 
> values for audio range would be hundreds of pF, maybe 1n0.
> 
> Good for a VCLFO though - the DuaLFO uses 100nF to cover the 
> range ~90uHz to 45Hz.

I've tried to use larger NP0 caps to switch into for getting LFO range in
self-oscillating filters.  However, I've always found the leakage to be too
high (couldn't get stable oscillation at very low frequencies), and have
then replaced them with polypropylene (WIMA -- the little red bricks), which
work extremely well (no problem oscillating stably at low frequencies).



From aym-htnys at teaser.fr  Mon Oct 14 19:42:17 2013
From: aym-htnys at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:42:17 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] C0G/NP0 caps for VCOs
In-Reply-To: <4A1727A5-5C45-4B49-B495-D17608DEE735@sounds.wa.com>
References: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20131014101015.04eb2718@mail.comcast.net>
	<4A1727A5-5C45-4B49-B495-D17608DEE735@sounds.wa.com>
Message-ID: <20131014174217.GB6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>

On 2013-10-14 09:24 -0700, rsdio at sounds.wa.com wrote:
> At 06:13 AM 10/14/2013, Andre Majorel wrote:
> >I don't know what you folks have been using for VCOs lately but
> >these look like a pretty good substitute for polystyrene
> >capacitors :
>
> What makes you think they'd particularly be good substitutes for
> polystyrene?

The low tempco.

> I thought that the primary benefit of poly was the low
> self-absorption, so it seems like we'd need data on that to know.

Yes, I was wondering how important DA was. Intuitively, it would
seem that if the time constant of the dieletric absorption is
much shorter than 50 ?s or much longer than 50 ms, linearity
over 20 Hz - 20 kHz is preserved. But I haven't done the math.
And of course, I don't know what the time constant(s) is (are).

The _Op Amp Applications Handbook_ says electrolytics, tantalum,
PC, paper-oil, silver mica, glass and high-K ceramics have DA >=
0.2% and PP, PS and PTFE have DA around 0.02% but says nothing
about low-K ceramics.

In _Understand Capacitor Soakage to Optimize Analog Systems_,
Bob Pease lists NP0 among the low-DA dielectrics. In figure 7,
it looks to be about on a par with PS. TI has helpfully 404'd
the original URL but the Wayback machine once again comes to the
rescue :

  http://web.archive.org/web/20120107045614/http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html

Thanks for the report, Ian. That's good to know.

Neil, I had 100 nF stuck in my head. Don't know from where.
Perhaps a VCLFO.

-- 
Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Mon Oct 14 19:48:34 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:48:34 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] C0G/NP0 caps for VCOs
In-Reply-To: <20131014174217.GB6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
References: <20131014121304.GA6145@aym.net2.nerim.net><6.2.1.2.2.20131014101015.04eb2718@mail.comcast.net><4A1727A5-5C45-4B49-B495-D17608DEE735@sounds.wa.com>
	<20131014174217.GB6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
Message-ID: <38D81814ADEF45C6BA34C1C1412F2D14@galvanox01>

Like Ian, I have been using NP0 caps in VCOs for years.  All the Intellijel
VCOs (Dixie, Rubicon) have NP0 ceramics in the core, and they are quite
highly regarded.



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Oct 14 19:57:53 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 18:57:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
In-Reply-To: <9FB95DD4-B593-40D3-AD2C-3FCAF1AF1CEB@amsynths.co.uk>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>,
	<CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>,
	<DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>,
	<CACZGMx+8UpMyqGNm=QOWu6uB2Gdepwv4mq1oL9yzpuK+BcL=ow@mail.gmail.com>,
	<9FB95DD4-B593-40D3-AD2C-3FCAF1AF1CEB@amsynths.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W3306FD4AFC0CAAFCC777ED971A0@phx.gbl>

Hi Rob, yeh I noticed you did. I was also wondering why you use a BA6110 on the resonance VCA? Is it any different to a CA3080 or so? I saw for the 4 220pf caps around the IR3109 you specify polystyrene or polypropolene instead of the ceramics used in the original. How come?

P.s. I messaged you about this already via fb.

Cheers,
Jack

----------------------------------------
> From: rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk
> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:33:57 +0100
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
>
> Hi
> I use high quality 1uf polarised capacitors here, as in the AM8109 Eurorack module. Can be any voltage above 16v, I use25v to keen the size down.
>
> Rob
>
>> On 14 Oct 2013, at 14:35, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Jack Jackson wrote:
>>> Thanks. Is the 50v an important factor here, or was it just specified so people wouldn't use something too low like 16v for example? I've found some cheap 100v ones here.
>>> http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/rbd030-047uf-100vdc-elna-bipolar-capacitors-p-9449.html
>>
>> It depends. Maybe that's what they had in stock? Maybe that's what
>> was on special at the time? You need to understand the circuit to see
>> what the maximum voltage across it could be, including startup and
>> shutdown conditions, and possible latchup. The voltage rating will
>> also affect the case size, and also other electrical parameters like
>> ESR.
>>
>>> Also why they choose to use an electrolytic over a polyester?
>>
>> Cheaper?? Smaller?? Adds to the J8 "sound"?? Dunno. Try replacing it
>> with a polyester and hear what the difference is.
>>
>> Neil
>> --
>> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From nate at paperproductsmusic.com  Mon Oct 14 22:01:12 2013
From: nate at paperproductsmusic.com (Nathanael King)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:01:12 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Old ICs: Identify, Value, FS
Message-ID: <CAOysfL6N-c0D1bO4nKiaPFor1dQM5-G+wejZu1f_FHRW7SD31Q@mail.gmail.com>

I have a mess of stuff I bought from an older fellow getting out of
his electronics business. The one scope I got made the two dragging
carloads worth it, but I'm left with a mess of stuff.
http://www.paperproductsmusic.com/images/oldic.zip
Anyway, at the link below are a (small) mess of ICs. My impression is
that they're largely for video, and other miscellaneous non-synth DIY
applications. There are a few CMOS and other semi-interesting parts I
recognize, but on the whole am scratching my head. I know there's some
programmable chips, and I am not sure if they are blank or what the
current status.
Anyway, if you're interested in taking a look and notice something you
need from the pile, it will be at a (very) nominal price. If you're
interested in the lot of it for the sake of commercial gain or
what-have-you, please be honest if there's something of decent value.
If there's something fun to do with these that I'm otherwise missing,
please enlighten me :)
I also have a host of probes and other stuff that can only be
categorized as "miscellaneous" I will be happy to share.

thanks,

-- 
Nate King
Paper Products Music


From rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk  Mon Oct 14 22:22:13 2013
From: rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk (Rob Keeble)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 21:22:13 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W3306FD4AFC0CAAFCC777ED971A0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMx+8UpMyqGNm=QOWu6uB2Gdepwv4mq1oL9yzpuK+BcL=ow@mail.gmail.com>
	<9FB95DD4-B593-40D3-AD2C-3FCAF1AF1CEB@amsynths.co.uk>
	<DUB123-W3306FD4AFC0CAAFCC777ED971A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A0D2D719-A469-4246-AF39-1EFFE6CC6417@amsynths.co.uk>

Hi
The ba6110 enables the resonance feedback to include some of the input signal, so the filter compensates for filter volume drop off as q goes up. It's a lower noise and better designed OTA than the ca3080 but the sip footprint made it the right product for my design. In the AM8109 I haven't implemented cv control of q but it's obviously possible. 

Filters sound better with film caps, with 5% polypro getting 90% of the way on a 1% polystyrene and a lot cheaper. Ceramics are better on a harsher diode filter but even then I'd use a Mylar film even if 20%. This is reflected in customer feedback on the AM8109 where there is a distinctive nice sound quality.

You can use higher signal path caps up to say 10uf, I do this in other OTA filter chip modules. In the arp filters the 220nf caps on the input side really hurt the sound and cause hf cut off. They are in their to reduce dc offset.

Best Regards
Rob Keeble
AMSynths
www.amsynths.co.uk

> On 14 Oct 2013, at 18:57, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Hi Rob, yeh I noticed you did. I was also wondering why you use a BA6110 on the resonance VCA? Is it any different to a CA3080 or so? I saw for the 4 220pf caps around the IR3109 you specify polystyrene or polypropolene instead of the ceramics used in the original. How come?
> 
> P.s. I messaged you about this already via fb.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jack
> 
> ----------------------------------------
>> From: rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk
>> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:33:57 +0100
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
>> 
>> Hi
>> I use high quality 1uf polarised capacitors here, as in the AM8109 Eurorack module. Can be any voltage above 16v, I use25v to keen the size down.
>> 
>> Rob
>> 
>>> On 14 Oct 2013, at 14:35, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Jack Jackson wrote:
>>>> Thanks. Is the 50v an important factor here, or was it just specified so people wouldn't use something too low like 16v for example? I've found some cheap 100v ones here.
>>>> http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/rbd030-047uf-100vdc-elna-bipolar-capacitors-p-9449.html
>>> 
>>> It depends. Maybe that's what they had in stock? Maybe that's what
>>> was on special at the time? You need to understand the circuit to see
>>> what the maximum voltage across it could be, including startup and
>>> shutdown conditions, and possible latchup. The voltage rating will
>>> also affect the case size, and also other electrical parameters like
>>> ESR.
>>> 
>>>> Also why they choose to use an electrolytic over a polyester?
>>> 
>>> Cheaper?? Smaller?? Adds to the J8 "sound"?? Dunno. Try replacing it
>>> with a polyester and hear what the difference is.
>>> 
>>> Neil
>>> --
>>> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy                         


From tom at electricdruid.net  Mon Oct 14 22:49:29 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 21:49:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] What is this capacitor in the JP8?
In-Reply-To: <A0D2D719-A469-4246-AF39-1EFFE6CC6417@amsynths.co.uk>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMx+8UpMyqGNm=QOWu6uB2Gdepwv4mq1oL9yzpuK+BcL=ow@mail.gmail.com>
	<9FB95DD4-B593-40D3-AD2C-3FCAF1AF1CEB@amsynths.co.uk>
	<DUB123-W3306FD4AFC0CAAFCC777ED971A0@phx.gbl>
	<A0D2D719-A469-4246-AF39-1EFFE6CC6417@amsynths.co.uk>
Message-ID: <240B53A4-F9E5-45A3-A5B2-BED91570E349@electricdruid.net>


On 14 Oct 2013, at 21:22, Rob Keeble <rob.keeble at amsynths.co.uk> wrote:

> You can use higher signal path caps up to say 10uf, I do this in other OTA filter chip modules. In the arp filters the 220nf caps on the input side really hurt the sound and cause hf cut off. They are in their to reduce dc offset.

In the J8 schematic posted earlier, I think the 0.47uF value gives a cutoff at 3.4Hz with the 100K input resistor, so that's not a problem in this case. It's definitely worth pointing out though. Under-spec'd DC blocking caps turn up all over the place, in gear designed by people who you'd have thought knew better!

T.



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Mon Oct 14 23:07:14 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 22:07:14 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] =?utf-8?q?What_is_this_capacitor_in_the_JP8=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <240B53A4-F9E5-45A3-A5B2-BED91570E349@electricdruid.net>
References: <DUB123-W41234700405331AD6CA701971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMxJLpJDitrAGYZ_EY_w1kwCSeeHNA0tMWzW-9P-1WB+HTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DUB123-W22F24B83D42EAB96EF7E8D971A0@phx.gbl>
	<CACZGMx+8UpMyqGNm=QOWu6uB2Gdepwv4mq1oL9yzpuK+BcL=ow@mail.gmail.com>
	<9FB95DD4-B593-40D3-AD2C-3FCAF1AF1CEB@amsynths.co.uk>
	<DUB123-W3306FD4AFC0CAAFCC777ED971A0@phx.gbl>
	<A0D2D719-A469-4246-AF39-1EFFE6CC6417@amsynths.co.uk>
	<240B53A4-F9E5-45A3-A5B2-BED91570E349@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <ac0bd8a11519b7580d15c55f342244c0@richieburnett.co.uk>

> ....Under-spec'd
> DC blocking caps turn up all over the place, in gear designed by
> people who you'd have thought knew better!

Multiple under-sized DC blocking capacitors in the feedback path of a 
filter can also cause enough phase-lead at low frequencies that a 
low-pass filter starts to become resonant at the bottom end as well as 
the top when feedback is introduced!  This is very noticeable at around 
8Hz in the TB-303 filter for example.

-Richie,


From aym-htnys at teaser.fr  Tue Oct 15 16:46:28 2013
From: aym-htnys at teaser.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 16:46:28 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Old ICs: Identify, Value, FS
In-Reply-To: <CAOysfL6N-c0D1bO4nKiaPFor1dQM5-G+wejZu1f_FHRW7SD31Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOysfL6N-c0D1bO4nKiaPFor1dQM5-G+wejZu1f_FHRW7SD31Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131015144628.GC6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>

On 2013-10-14 16:01 -0400, Nathanael King wrote:

> I have a mess of stuff I bought from an older fellow getting out of
> his electronics business. The one scope I got made the two dragging
> carloads worth it, but I'm left with a mess of stuff.
> http://www.paperproductsmusic.com/images/oldic.zip

They look like logic chips, mostly from the second half of the
seventies. EPROMs, 8080 processors... The SMC COM2502 are UARTs
(think RS-232). The chips with the golden lids intrigue me.
Never seen that "TTY" marking before.

None of these are very likely to be useful in new projects. Main
use I see for them these days is repairing digital equipment
from that era. Do you know any retrocomputing fans in your area ?

http://www.cpu-sammlung.de/ says "Welcome to my historical
Chip-Collection. I'm looking forward to every CPU-donation,
trade or swap".

These things will one day be seen as precious relics of
humankind's first forays into information processing. On display
in museums behind thick glass or bought by rich collectors at
ridiculous prices.

We will all be long dead, though. :-)

-- 
Andr? Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/


From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 05:50:12 2013
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 22:50:12 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
Message-ID: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking for a CA3080/LM3080 Spice model.  I'm troubleshooting a
few ARP 4023 filters that all seem to exhibit the same basic problems,
AND building it on a breadboard (albeit with slightly different
values/components because of what I have on hand) I get the same
results--no sound.  Not on the output, not on the end of the first
filter stage, nowhere other than the input.  Between the breadboard
and being told that this same PCB has been built and worked, I don't
expect I have a circuit board problem.  I didn't do the builds myself,
BTW.

Next step is to try and look at the filter in LTSpice so I can see a
"working" model, but while I can find .asy and .asc files (from
LTSpice on Yahoo, mostly) I have yet to find something with a subckt
or anything that looks to my (admittedly not very Spice savvy) eye
like a model.  I have tried looking directly at Intersil and TI and
had no more luck there than with google.

If someone has one they can share, that would be great.  If someone
has a suggestion for different simulation software that is 1) not
greatly expensive 2) includes OTA models, and 3) runs on Mac without
too many hoops (LTSpice came in a WINE emulation wrapper, just had to
drop it in place), that would be welcome as well.  I certainly don't
know Spice well enough to be committed to it.

Thanks...

Pete


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed Oct 16 08:21:32 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 23:21:32 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7B0FA1A54FC549FBBBB58A406A685544@galvanox01>

I use Multisim, and the 3080 model in that software is broken.  The 13700
model works fine, though. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Pete Hartman
> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 8:50 PM
> To: synthdiy diy
> Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
> 
> I'm looking for a CA3080/LM3080 Spice model.  I'm 
> troubleshooting a few ARP 4023 filters that all seem to 
> exhibit the same basic problems, AND building it on a 
> breadboard (albeit with slightly different values/components 
> because of what I have on hand) I get the same results--no 
> sound.  Not on the output, not on the end of the first filter 
> stage, nowhere other than the input.  Between the breadboard 
> and being told that this same PCB has been built and worked, 
> I don't expect I have a circuit board problem.  I didn't do 
> the builds myself, BTW.
> 
> Next step is to try and look at the filter in LTSpice so I 
> can see a "working" model, but while I can find .asy and .asc 
> files (from LTSpice on Yahoo, mostly) I have yet to find 
> something with a subckt or anything that looks to my 
> (admittedly not very Spice savvy) eye like a model.  I have 
> tried looking directly at Intersil and TI and had no more 
> luck there than with google.
> 
> If someone has one they can share, that would be great.  If 
> someone has a suggestion for different simulation software 
> that is 1) not greatly expensive 2) includes OTA models, and 
> 3) runs on Mac without too many hoops (LTSpice came in a WINE 
> emulation wrapper, just had to drop it in place), that would 
> be welcome as well.  I certainly don't know Spice well enough 
> to be committed to it.
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> Pete
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From yves.usson at imag.fr  Wed Oct 16 08:33:52 2013
From: yves.usson at imag.fr (yves usson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:33:52 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <525E3350.3010308@imag.fr>

Hi

A friend of mine bought a built one based on AM PCB and it was not 
working (same as you described),
he returned it and had it replaced by a new one. This one seemed to work 
for about 10 minutes and then
muted completely. This friend asked me to fix it. I tried various things 
(replacement of ICs...) and run some
measurements and got the same as you. No signal at the first OTA output 
and the outputs of the OPAs are stuck
to the negative rail. I was starting to suspect a bad PCB but what you 
say about breadboarding let me think
it is more a general design problem. The only thing I have not tried is 
to replace the OPAs by  old 301s as in
the original design.

Yves

Le 16/10/13 05:50, Pete Hartman a ?crit :
> I'm looking for a CA3080/LM3080 Spice model.  I'm troubleshooting a
> few ARP 4023 filters that all seem to exhibit the same basic problems,
> AND building it on a breadboard (albeit with slightly different
> values/components because of what I have on hand) I get the same
> results--no sound.  Not on the output, not on the end of the first
> filter stage, nowhere other than the input.  Between the breadboard
> and being told that this same PCB has been built and worked, I don't
> expect I have a circuit board problem.  I didn't do the builds myself,
> BTW.
>



From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Wed Oct 16 08:53:08 2013
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:53:08 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<525E3350.3010308@imag.fr>
Message-ID: <E3C7A6E96C3641A1816C8DCE7FEBCDFC@ownerf0d9273f5>

FWIW, the maximum input current on an OTA is not very large.
It is pretty easy to exceed and blow the chip, especially when 
prototyping or tweaking (or just shorting the control pin with a probe.)

I have plenty of "half" LM13700s to prove this...

paul perry Melbourne Australia


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Oct 16 09:06:06 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:06:06 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <E3C7A6E96C3641A1816C8DCE7FEBCDFC@ownerf0d9273f5>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>,
	<525E3350.3010308@imag.fr>,
	<E3C7A6E96C3641A1816C8DCE7FEBCDFC@ownerf0d9273f5>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W31D2AE18D8DF532116841297040@phx.gbl>

How can you prevent exceeding this as a rule of thumb? I gave myself four new half 13700s the other day forgetting that.
----------------------------------------
> From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:53:08 +1100
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
>
> FWIW, the maximum input current on an OTA is not very large.
> It is pretty easy to exceed and blow the chip, especially when
> prototyping or tweaking (or just shorting the control pin with a probe.)
>
> I have plenty of "half" LM13700s to prove this...
>
> paul perry Melbourne Australia
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Wed Oct 16 11:52:40 2013
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 20:52:40 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>,
	<525E3350.3010308@imag.fr>,
	<E3C7A6E96C3641A1816C8DCE7FEBCDFC@ownerf0d9273f5>
	<DUB123-W31D2AE18D8DF532116841297040@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A34DB0046BAB40D3BAB895CA5EEC2F25@ownerf0d9273f5>

Since the control signal is always a current from a high impedance source, 
when prototyping
I always put a resistor in series with the control pin - if the rails are 
+-15V,
and the max current is 2mA, then a limiting resistor of 10K will do.

Now that won't help with an accidental short of +15 to the pin, but it means
that if there is a layout error, the chip won't be damaged.
In my experience, this will detune filters etc, but they will still work (if 
they are
going to work at all!) and once you are happy, remove the 10K.

paul perry Melbourne Australia

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Jackson" Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:06 PM
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA


How can you prevent exceeding this as a rule of thumb? I gave myself four 
new half 13700s the other day forgetting that.
----------------------------------------



From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 12:57:51 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 11:57:51 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Audio hardware platforms?
In-Reply-To: <BAY405-EAS270EAD0CF4F563DB73DFE45C8190@phx.gbl>
References: <29970E34-03B4-45A6-9081-CD7B09796DC7@earthlink.net>
	<20131009115616.383858sjbxfgmh7k@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<52573DC8-009B-4419-B6C6-5687A173575A@pingdynasty.com>
	<20131011144212.14517lbdoeycrekk@webmail.media.mit.edu>
	<D159783F-122F-4E92-A7F5-57530AC9A6DD@pingdynasty.com>
	<4DBA3FCD-ECB3-41DB-9F15-E94B525A695B@earthlink.net>
	<E7323FF7-3BD0-4D9E-BDA3-61E4E1DD7141@sounds.wa.com>
	<CAGYZNz9qsmZ6CHYh=crqhKm9Jhn27YTAddeoouurCFjTb=+VeA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY405-EAS270EAD0CF4F563DB73DFE45C8190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxLEAtZgQ=mpOHGzYPhyHFKXJZ+Zu8bDUYwEKs29Y0r4ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone wanting to play with XMOS devices might like this:

http://www.xmos.com/startkit/what#!

They have 2,500 kits to give away.

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 14:02:11 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 13:02:11 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxJ07CV1fWUu9ZV5g6_YL285415CohdU0wW3iLmSmXDsLw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Pete Hartman wrote:
> I'm looking for a CA3080/LM3080 Spice model

Don Sauer has probably more detail on CA3080/LM13600/LM13700 SPICE
models than you need:

http://www.idea2ic.com/LM13600/SpiceSubcircuit/LM13700_SpiceModel.html

But to be honest I wouldn't use SPICE to debug this circuit.  Sit down
with a scope, schematic, and some quiet time to think through what it
actually happening, and why that is different from what should be
happening (you won't know if SPICE is lying to you).

Can you share the schematic?

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 14:21:24 2013
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 07:21:24 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxJ07CV1fWUu9ZV5g6_YL285415CohdU0wW3iLmSmXDsLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMxJ07CV1fWUu9ZV5g6_YL285415CohdU0wW3iLmSmXDsLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACodTR-Lg8c1vHxrgW5Un6G8XEi0xP0dT3cXKvMibyRWfavFug@mail.gmail.com>

Part of the issue I'm having is while I think I theoretically
understand what's going on (OTA -> capacitor -> buffer x 2) I don't
have a lot of practical experience with FETs and feedback paths yet to
be certain what I *should* be seeing.  So I want to simulate it and at
least get a better idea.  The caution about SPICE is a good one
though, I'll keep that in mind.

As for schematic the main differences between this and the original
ARP 4023 schematic are a trimmer between the rails with a 475K
resistor on the wiper tied to the control voltage input, and using
OPA134's instead of LM301's.  The original doesn't show a value for
the balance trim, but this is using a 50K.  The output has a DC
blocking capacitor and a 1K resistor, and there is additional
circuitry for attenuating/summing audio and control inputs, but none
of that is surprising and all of it appears to work fine.  I'm
hesitant to share the actual schematic, but I'll check with the PCB
manufacturer.

I appreciate everyone's input and the models, I have what I wanted,
now I just have to find time to apply it (hopefully before the
weekend).

Thanks

Pete




On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Pete Hartman wrote:
>> I'm looking for a CA3080/LM3080 Spice model
>
> Don Sauer has probably more detail on CA3080/LM13600/LM13700 SPICE
> models than you need:
>
> http://www.idea2ic.com/LM13600/SpiceSubcircuit/LM13700_SpiceModel.html
>
> But to be honest I wouldn't use SPICE to debug this circuit.  Sit down
> with a scope, schematic, and some quiet time to think through what it
> actually happening, and why that is different from what should be
> happening (you won't know if SPICE is lying to you).
>
> Can you share the schematic?
>
> Neil
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Wed Oct 16 14:34:45 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 13:34:45 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR-Lg8c1vHxrgW5Un6G8XEi0xP0dT3cXKvMibyRWfavFug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMxJ07CV1fWUu9ZV5g6_YL285415CohdU0wW3iLmSmXDsLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-Lg8c1vHxrgW5Un6G8XEi0xP0dT3cXKvMibyRWfavFug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44fc13039145c4b7a602b386f4cfbd4d@richieburnett.co.uk>

If the output of the filter sometimes mutes and sticks to one of the 
rails, I'd hazzard a guess that there might be an op-amp in there 
somewhere who's output undergoes phase-reversal when one of the inputs 
goes outside the normal operating range.  A normal cascaded OTA resonant 
filter has negative feedback around it to achieve resonance, but if an 
op-amp anywhere in this loop undergoes phase-reversal then this will 
become positive feedback.  Positive feedback at DC will drive the output 
to one of the rails and keep it there.

Just a thought, but without schematics it could be almost anything!

-Richie,

On 2013-10-16 13:21, Pete Hartman wrote:
> Part of the issue I'm having is while I think I theoretically
> understand what's going on (OTA -> capacitor -> buffer x 2) I don't
> have a lot of practical experience with FETs and feedback paths yet to
> be certain what I *should* be seeing.  So I want to simulate it and at
> least get a better idea.  The caution about SPICE is a good one
> though, I'll keep that in mind.
> 
> As for schematic the main differences between this and the original
> ARP 4023 schematic are a trimmer between the rails with a 475K
> resistor on the wiper tied to the control voltage input, and using
> OPA134's instead of LM301's.  The original doesn't show a value for
> the balance trim, but this is using a 50K.  The output has a DC
> blocking capacitor and a 1K resistor, and there is additional
> circuitry for attenuating/summing audio and control inputs, but none
> of that is surprising and all of it appears to work fine.  I'm
> hesitant to share the actual schematic, but I'll check with the PCB
> manufacturer.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's input and the models, I have what I wanted,
> now I just have to find time to apply it (hopefully before the
> weekend).
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Neil Johnson 
> <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Pete Hartman wrote:
>>> I'm looking for a CA3080/LM3080 Spice model
>> 
>> Don Sauer has probably more detail on CA3080/LM13600/LM13700 SPICE
>> models than you need:
>> 
>> http://www.idea2ic.com/LM13600/SpiceSubcircuit/LM13700_SpiceModel.html
>> 
>> But to be honest I wouldn't use SPICE to debug this circuit.  Sit down
>> with a scope, schematic, and some quiet time to think through what it
>> actually happening, and why that is different from what should be
>> happening (you won't know if SPICE is lying to you).
>> 
>> Can you share the schematic?
>> 
>> Neil
>> --
>> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From carsten at analog-monster.de  Wed Oct 16 15:46:40 2013
From: carsten at analog-monster.de (Carsten Toensmann)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:46:40 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <44fc13039145c4b7a602b386f4cfbd4d@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com><CACZGMxJ07CV1fWUu9ZV5g6_YL285415CohdU0wW3iLmSmXDsLw@mail.gmail.com><CACodTR-Lg8c1vHxrgW5Un6G8XEi0xP0dT3cXKvMibyRWfavFug@mail.gmail.com>
	<44fc13039145c4b7a602b386f4cfbd4d@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <72126DC9914F497DB34B7A3844309721@AnwenderPC>

It sometimes happens in the OTA based VCF of my Formant modular system. The 
filter "crashes" and has to be "rebooted". It happens when the cutoff pot 
has reached a certain position or above. Sometimes the system has to be 
powered off, sometimes the filter starts working again when the cutoff is 
turned back (meaning anti clockwise). I would say this filter is quite 
similar to the ARP filter beside the difference that all FET transistors are 
FET opamps in my filter.

Perhaps the OTA shuts down if the controll current reaches a certain level, 
without being destroyed. So a test with a higher resistance in the control 
current might help.

Hope this makes sense...

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- 
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:34 PM
To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA

If the output of the filter sometimes mutes and sticks to one of the
rails, I'd hazzard a guess that there might be an op-amp in there
somewhere who's output undergoes phase-reversal when one of the inputs
goes outside the normal operating range.  A normal cascaded OTA resonant
filter has negative feedback around it to achieve resonance, but if an
op-amp anywhere in this loop undergoes phase-reversal then this will
become positive feedback.  Positive feedback at DC will drive the output
to one of the rails and keep it there.

Just a thought, but without schematics it could be almost anything!

-Richie,

On 2013-10-16 13:21, Pete Hartman wrote:
> Part of the issue I'm having is while I think I theoretically
> understand what's going on (OTA -> capacitor -> buffer x 2) I don't
> have a lot of practical experience with FETs and feedback paths yet to
> be certain what I *should* be seeing.  So I want to simulate it and at
> least get a better idea.  The caution about SPICE is a good one
> though, I'll keep that in mind.
>
> As for schematic the main differences between this and the original
> ARP 4023 schematic are a trimmer between the rails with a 475K
> resistor on the wiper tied to the control voltage input, and using
> OPA134's instead of LM301's.  The original doesn't show a value for
> the balance trim, but this is using a 50K.  The output has a DC
> blocking capacitor and a 1K resistor, and there is additional
> circuitry for attenuating/summing audio and control inputs, but none
> of that is surprising and all of it appears to work fine.  I'm
> hesitant to share the actual schematic, but I'll check with the PCB
> manufacturer.
>
> I appreciate everyone's input and the models, I have what I wanted,
> now I just have to find time to apply it (hopefully before the
> weekend).
>
> Thanks
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Pete Hartman wrote:
>>> I'm looking for a CA3080/LM3080 Spice model
>>
>> Don Sauer has probably more detail on CA3080/LM13600/LM13700 SPICE
>> models than you need:
>>
>> http://www.idea2ic.com/LM13600/SpiceSubcircuit/LM13700_SpiceModel.html
>>
>> But to be honest I wouldn't use SPICE to debug this circuit.  Sit down
>> with a scope, schematic, and some quiet time to think through what it
>> actually happening, and why that is different from what should be
>> happening (you won't know if SPICE is lying to you).
>>
>> Can you share the schematic?
>>
>> Neil
>> --
>> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 



From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 16:23:45 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:23:45 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <72126DC9914F497DB34B7A3844309721@AnwenderPC>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMxJ07CV1fWUu9ZV5g6_YL285415CohdU0wW3iLmSmXDsLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-Lg8c1vHxrgW5Un6G8XEi0xP0dT3cXKvMibyRWfavFug@mail.gmail.com>
	<44fc13039145c4b7a602b386f4cfbd4d@richieburnett.co.uk>
	<72126DC9914F497DB34B7A3844309721@AnwenderPC>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxK5K+S1oMWsqD+39ZuywzBdTm_anScgR_0D4Nm5czMW4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Carsten Toensmann wrote:
> It sometimes happens in the OTA based VCF of my Formant modular system. The
> filter "crashes" and has to be "rebooted".

Yes, that's been known about for some time:

http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37888

> Perhaps the OTA shuts down if the controll current reaches a certain level,
> without being destroyed. So a test with a higher resistance in the control
> current might help.

No, it is due to op-amp phase reversal.

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 16:28:20 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:28:20 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <44fc13039145c4b7a602b386f4cfbd4d@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMxJ07CV1fWUu9ZV5g6_YL285415CohdU0wW3iLmSmXDsLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-Lg8c1vHxrgW5Un6G8XEi0xP0dT3cXKvMibyRWfavFug@mail.gmail.com>
	<44fc13039145c4b7a602b386f4cfbd4d@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+2iK9nmUzQPS-9cay9wP-ynTR_zrhE3dtcinxjBabiFA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Richie,

> If the output of the filter sometimes mutes and sticks to one of the rails,
> I'd hazzard a guess that there might be an op-amp in there somewhere who's
> output undergoes phase-reversal when one of the inputs goes outside the
> normal operating range.

You could well be right.  The CA3080 datasheet does not say it does
not go into phase reversal (gotta love those double-negatives!) so it
could be the CA3080.  The datasheet for the OPA134 clearly states that
it does NOT suffer phase reversal.

Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From lists at meccanion.com  Wed Oct 16 18:26:09 2013
From: lists at meccanion.com (Colin Hinz)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 12:26:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: [sdiy] Old ICs: Identify, Value, FS
In-Reply-To: <20131015144628.GC6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
References: <CAOysfL6N-c0D1bO4nKiaPFor1dQM5-G+wejZu1f_FHRW7SD31Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20131015144628.GC6145@aym.net2.nerim.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.64.1310161222360.2496@p4-1>

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013, Andre Majorel wrote:

> On 2013-10-14 16:01 -0400, Nathanael King wrote:
>
>> I have a mess of stuff I bought from an older fellow getting out of
>> his electronics business. The one scope I got made the two dragging
>> carloads worth it, but I'm left with a mess of stuff.
>> http://www.paperproductsmusic.com/images/oldic.zip
>
> They look like logic chips, mostly from the second half of the
> seventies. EPROMs, 8080 processors... The SMC COM2502 are UARTs
> (think RS-232). The chips with the golden lids intrigue me.
> Never seen that "TTY" marking before.
>
> None of these are very likely to be useful in new projects. Main
> use I see for them these days is repairing digital equipment
> from that era. Do you know any retrocomputing fans in your area ?

A few years back I sold a bunch of antique PROMs and logic ICs on
eBay. I got a pretty good return, though the best payoff was when
a slot machine repairer got in a bidding war with a telco repair
tech.

So yeah, my recommendation would be to take them to eBay and see
what kind of payoff you'll get.

- Colin



From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Wed Oct 16 19:09:47 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (MTG)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 10:09:47 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
Message-ID: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>

So I'm still banging away on this Kawai R100 drum machine when time 
permits. The idea is to be able to make fresh sound ROMs for it. It's a 
great 12-bit drum machine. The unit uses a couple of ASICs where Linn 
and Oberheim, et al used counters. Here is the jist:

AGU -> ROM -> DGU -> DAC (12-bit linear?)  [DAC312/AM6012]

I assume AGU is Address Generation Unit and DGU is Data...  The 
schematic is widely available, such as 
http://www.burnkit2600.com/manuals/KAWAI_R-100_SRV.pdf .

Now if you assume the whole thing is linear and you code up a ramp 
waveform and stuff it in and EPROM and press play, this is what you get 
out. NOT ramp. Some EXPONENTIAL thing. The sign bit is understood and 
the output wave is single-ended on the +15v rail (centered about half way).

http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_first_ramp.jpg

So there was this theory floated around on the web that they used some 
12-bit DAT encoding method (http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3190.txt) 
in the ROMs that was expanded by the DGU. And as unlikely as that seems, 
it's not too far off. But just far enough to sound bad if you try and 
account for it.  RFC 3190 describes something not unlike uLaw where you 
have big Chord bits and smaller Step bits.

I coded up something that becomes a ramp if you run it through RFC 3190. 
Simulate if you will. And this is what you get. It should be a nice 
ramp.  But it's still not.

http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_non_ramp.jpg

It has flattened out significantly though, so it's a step in the right 
direction. So I wonder if anyone is aware of any other 12-bit encoding 
schemes they might have used?? DAT didn't come out until after the R100 
so I think that was a red herring.

GB



From commodorejohn at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 19:43:50 2013
From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 12:43:50 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
Message-ID: <CABCBCvOJVHOZd2O1zTuUOShxRaLi6Pf6_F3=6SK-R6AbPaDLCA@mail.gmail.com>

The waveform produced by the linear data almost makes me think it's
some variety of floating-point just based on the way it's almost
completely flat for about 3/4 of the up and down phases...that could
be where it starts to increment the exponent enough to give it
significant scaling. But I have a hard time imagining that they'd have
used floating-point DACs for this purpose; Yamaha did on the DXes, but
that was probably more because the precision was needed for
good-sounding FM.

On 10/16/13, MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:
> So I'm still banging away on this Kawai R100 drum machine when time
> permits. The idea is to be able to make fresh sound ROMs for it. It's a
> great 12-bit drum machine. The unit uses a couple of ASICs where Linn
> and Oberheim, et al used counters. Here is the jist:
>
> AGU -> ROM -> DGU -> DAC (12-bit linear?)  [DAC312/AM6012]
>
> I assume AGU is Address Generation Unit and DGU is Data...  The
> schematic is widely available, such as
> http://www.burnkit2600.com/manuals/KAWAI_R-100_SRV.pdf .
>
> Now if you assume the whole thing is linear and you code up a ramp
> waveform and stuff it in and EPROM and press play, this is what you get
> out. NOT ramp. Some EXPONENTIAL thing. The sign bit is understood and
> the output wave is single-ended on the +15v rail (centered about half way).
>
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_first_ramp.jpg
>
> So there was this theory floated around on the web that they used some
> 12-bit DAT encoding method (http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3190.txt)
> in the ROMs that was expanded by the DGU. And as unlikely as that seems,
> it's not too far off. But just far enough to sound bad if you try and
> account for it.  RFC 3190 describes something not unlike uLaw where you
> have big Chord bits and smaller Step bits.
>
> I coded up something that becomes a ramp if you run it through RFC 3190.
> Simulate if you will. And this is what you get. It should be a nice
> ramp.  But it's still not.
>
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_non_ramp.jpg
>
> It has flattened out significantly though, so it's a step in the right
> direction. So I wonder if anyone is aware of any other 12-bit encoding
> schemes they might have used?? DAT didn't come out until after the R100
> so I think that was a red herring.
>
> GB
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>


From cheater00 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 19:51:50 2013
From: cheater00 at gmail.com (cheater00 .)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 19:51:50 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9GZUgsSn2hQGG_uFYVx09Y+31X9EQQ-o2f-N7f57+mW_qEww@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Grant,


On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 7:09 PM, MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:
> So I'm still banging away on this Kawai R100 drum machine when time permits.
> The idea is to be able to make fresh sound ROMs for it. It's a great 12-bit
> drum machine. The unit uses a couple of ASICs where Linn and Oberheim, et al
> used counters. Here is the jist:
>
> AGU -> ROM -> DGU -> DAC (12-bit linear?)  [DAC312/AM6012]
>
> I assume AGU is Address Generation Unit and DGU is Data...  The schematic is
> widely available, such as
> http://www.burnkit2600.com/manuals/KAWAI_R-100_SRV.pdf .
>
> Now if you assume the whole thing is linear and you code up a ramp waveform
> and stuff it in and EPROM and press play, this is what you get out. NOT
> ramp. Some EXPONENTIAL thing. The sign bit is understood and the output wave
> is single-ended on the +15v rail (centered about half way).
>
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_first_ramp.jpg
>
> So there was this theory floated around on the web that they used some
> 12-bit DAT encoding method (http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3190.txt) in
> the ROMs that was expanded by the DGU. And as unlikely as that seems, it's
> not too far off. But just far enough to sound bad if you try and account for
> it.  RFC 3190 describes something not unlike uLaw where you have big Chord
> bits and smaller Step bits.
>
> I coded up something that becomes a ramp if you run it through RFC 3190.
> Simulate if you will. And this is what you get. It should be a nice ramp.
> But it's still not.
>
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_non_ramp.jpg
>
> It has flattened out significantly though, so it's a step in the right
> direction. So I wonder if anyone is aware of any other 12-bit encoding
> schemes they might have used?? DAT didn't come out until after the R100 so I
> think that was a red herring.
>
> GB

I suggest that you attach a linear DAC to read the same bus that is
feeding the DGU, then use the output of that DAC and the typical DAC
to an oscilloscope in XY mode. This will tell you if you're even
dealing with a transformation or if the DGU has got logic inside. A
dual-trace mode should provide interesting information as well.

Afterwards, instead of reading off a ROM, set up a simple data feed
where you can flip the bits yourself, and see what happens when you
do.

Cheers,
D.


From nitro2k01 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 16 19:52:44 2013
From: nitro2k01 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?T3ZlIFJpZMOp?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 19:52:44 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
Message-ID: <CABacs=BhJwv-3GP2cVU1J5ZYk+SSgqqFRno0YGn4jUV6TQcynQ@mail.gmail.com>

Could it be a delta encoding?

On 16 October 2013 19:09, MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:
> So I'm still banging away on this Kawai R100 drum machine when time permits.
> The idea is to be able to make fresh sound ROMs for it. It's a great 12-bit
> drum machine. The unit uses a couple of ASICs where Linn and Oberheim, et al
> used counters. Here is the jist:
>
> AGU -> ROM -> DGU -> DAC (12-bit linear?)  [DAC312/AM6012]
>
> I assume AGU is Address Generation Unit and DGU is Data...  The schematic is
> widely available, such as
> http://www.burnkit2600.com/manuals/KAWAI_R-100_SRV.pdf .
>
> Now if you assume the whole thing is linear and you code up a ramp waveform
> and stuff it in and EPROM and press play, this is what you get out. NOT
> ramp. Some EXPONENTIAL thing. The sign bit is understood and the output wave
> is single-ended on the +15v rail (centered about half way).
>
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_first_ramp.jpg
>
> So there was this theory floated around on the web that they used some
> 12-bit DAT encoding method (http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3190.txt) in
> the ROMs that was expanded by the DGU. And as unlikely as that seems, it's
> not too far off. But just far enough to sound bad if you try and account for
> it.  RFC 3190 describes something not unlike uLaw where you have big Chord
> bits and smaller Step bits.
>
> I coded up something that becomes a ramp if you run it through RFC 3190.
> Simulate if you will. And this is what you get. It should be a nice ramp.
> But it's still not.
>
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_non_ramp.jpg
>
> It has flattened out significantly though, so it's a step in the right
> direction. So I wonder if anyone is aware of any other 12-bit encoding
> schemes they might have used?? DAT didn't come out until after the R100 so I
> think that was a red herring.
>
> GB
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
/Ove

Blog: <http://blog.gg8.se/>

"Here is Evergreen City. Evergreen? is the color of green forever."


From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Wed Oct 16 20:04:37 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (MTG)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 11:04:37 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <CABacs=BhJwv-3GP2cVU1J5ZYk+SSgqqFRno0YGn4jUV6TQcynQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
	<CABacs=BhJwv-3GP2cVU1J5ZYk+SSgqqFRno0YGn4jUV6TQcynQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <525ED535.2040103@musictechnologiesgroup.com>

You mean where the bytes are changes to the output level rather than 
output level itself? I thought of that too and it's not.

I can take an existing drum WAV sample and modify to fit 12-bit along 
with this RFC 3190 "compression" and it's pretty reminiscent of the 
original.  You can see in my latter photo that it would be. But 
distorted enough from original to be a no-go.

I think it is some kind of Chord/Step or fixed point thing. Floating 
point seems too sophisticated for this period. At this point we haven't 
even seen 16-bit drum machines (HR-16) for instance.

GB


On 10/16/2013 10:52 AM, Ove Rid? wrote:

> Could it be a delta encoding?
>
>


From blincoln at eventualdecline.com  Wed Oct 16 20:54:37 2013
From: blincoln at eventualdecline.com (Ben Lincoln)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 11:54:37 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
Message-ID: <763004a7f1591a9d98d73cd50e5a6336.squirrel@webmail.eventualdecline.com>

This is probably a naive suggestion, but does it use a format where the
per-sample value is on an exponential or log scale instead of a linear
scale? The output graph you sent for the plain old ramp looks like an
exponential curve to me, or like the comparison graphs on this page that
show perceived loudness versus acoustic intensity
(http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/feschools/waves/wavetypes2.php).

I've read about digital audio formats in the past that used log or
exponential scaling instead of linear, because it means that for a given
bit depth, you get fidelity that is more optimized for how our ears (and
eyes) work, but I've never actually run across one. Maybe that was a trick
that Kawai used to improve the perceived fidelity of this device despite
its 12-bit design?

I haven't done the math, but I would think that if it were of that design,
then feeding a linear ramp into it would give you an output waveform like
the one in your scope photo.

On Wed, October 16, 2013 10:09 am, MTG wrote:
> So I'm still banging away on this Kawai R100 drum machine when time
> permits. The idea is to be able to make fresh sound ROMs for it. It's a
> great 12-bit drum machine. The unit uses a couple of ASICs where Linn
> and Oberheim, et al used counters. Here is the jist:
>
> AGU -> ROM -> DGU -> DAC (12-bit linear?)  [DAC312/AM6012]
>
> I assume AGU is Address Generation Unit and DGU is Data...  The
> schematic is widely available, such as
> http://www.burnkit2600.com/manuals/KAWAI_R-100_SRV.pdf .
>
> Now if you assume the whole thing is linear and you code up a ramp
> waveform and stuff it in and EPROM and press play, this is what you get
> out. NOT ramp. Some EXPONENTIAL thing. The sign bit is understood and
> the output wave is single-ended on the +15v rail (centered about half
> way).
>
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_first_ramp.jpg
>
> So there was this theory floated around on the web that they used some
> 12-bit DAT encoding method (http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3190.txt)
> in the ROMs that was expanded by the DGU. And as unlikely as that seems,
> it's not too far off. But just far enough to sound bad if you try and
> account for it.  RFC 3190 describes something not unlike uLaw where you
> have big Chord bits and smaller Step bits.
>
> I coded up something that becomes a ramp if you run it through RFC 3190.
> Simulate if you will. And this is what you get. It should be a nice
> ramp.  But it's still not.
>
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_non_ramp.jpg
>
> It has flattened out significantly though, so it's a step in the right
> direction. So I wonder if anyone is aware of any other 12-bit encoding
> schemes they might have used?? DAT didn't come out until after the R100
> so I think that was a red herring.
>
> GB
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>




From tom at electricdruid.net  Wed Oct 16 21:02:57 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 20:02:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
Message-ID: <A1AA4367-7765-4D62-BB2F-A377A538B66E@electricdruid.net>

Isn't Mu-law quite likely? Have you tried that? It was widely used for 8-bit samples, so it'd have been current when people moved up to 12-bit.
According to this Wikipedia article, there's an "A law" variant too - same idea, different curve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?-law_algorithm

(Compare the image at the bottom of the page with your R100_first_ramp.jpg)

Either way, you're just hunting for a compensation curve. Cheater's idea of deriving it by experiment isn't too far out - it might be doable with sufficient accuracy.

I can see real benefits to be had from such an encoding on a drum sample system, since drum hits typically have a short loud peak, followed by a longer body of sound at a much reduced (and reducing) amplitude. With a limited 12-bit resolution, that'd mean that most of your signal will actually be only 8 or 10 bit. Anything you can do to mitigate against that is going to be a plus.

T.



On 16 Oct 2013, at 18:09, MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:

> So I'm still banging away on this Kawai R100 drum machine when time permits. The idea is to be able to make fresh sound ROMs for it. It's a great 12-bit drum machine. The unit uses a couple of ASICs where Linn and Oberheim, et al used counters. Here is the jist:
> 
> AGU -> ROM -> DGU -> DAC (12-bit linear?)  [DAC312/AM6012]
> 
> I assume AGU is Address Generation Unit and DGU is Data...  The schematic is widely available, such as http://www.burnkit2600.com/manuals/KAWAI_R-100_SRV.pdf .
> 
> Now if you assume the whole thing is linear and you code up a ramp waveform and stuff it in and EPROM and press play, this is what you get out. NOT ramp. Some EXPONENTIAL thing. The sign bit is understood and the output wave is single-ended on the +15v rail (centered about half way).
> 
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_first_ramp.jpg
> 
> So there was this theory floated around on the web that they used some 12-bit DAT encoding method (http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3190.txt) in the ROMs that was expanded by the DGU. And as unlikely as that seems, it's not too far off. But just far enough to sound bad if you try and account for it.  RFC 3190 describes something not unlike uLaw where you have big Chord bits and smaller Step bits.
> 
> I coded up something that becomes a ramp if you run it through RFC 3190. Simulate if you will. And this is what you get. It should be a nice ramp.  But it's still not.
> 
> http://musictechnologiesgroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/R100_non_ramp.jpg
> 
> It has flattened out significantly though, so it's a step in the right direction. So I wonder if anyone is aware of any other 12-bit encoding schemes they might have used?? DAT didn't come out until after the R100 so I think that was a red herring.
> 
> GB
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed Oct 16 21:14:36 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 12:14:36 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <E3C7A6E96C3641A1816C8DCE7FEBCDFC@ownerf0d9273f5>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com><525E3350.3010308@imag.fr>
	<E3C7A6E96C3641A1816C8DCE7FEBCDFC@ownerf0d9273f5>
Message-ID: <A761FB1EB51640F8AED42FB90BC5DE64@galvanox01>

Yes.  From what I remember, 2 mA fries LM13700, and 1 mA is about the max
you should ever give it under normal circumstances.

I hate OTAs.  I have never regretted switching all of my designs to SSM2164
VCAs (now V2164). 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Paul Perry
> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:53 PM
> To: synthdiy diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
> 
> FWIW, the maximum input current on an OTA is not very large.
> It is pretty easy to exceed and blow the chip, especially 
> when prototyping or tweaking (or just shorting the control 
> pin with a probe.)
> 
> I have plenty of "half" LM13700s to prove this...
> 
> paul perry Melbourne Australia
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Wed Oct 16 21:33:20 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (MTG)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 12:33:20 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <A1AA4367-7765-4D62-BB2F-A377A538B66E@electricdruid.net>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
	<A1AA4367-7765-4D62-BB2F-A377A538B66E@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <525EEA00.8050700@musictechnologiesgroup.com>

Yes, that's kind of what this RFC3190 thing is ... chord/step just like 
u-law except different precision, if you will.  I will have to try a few 
other variations on that theme, then maybe looked at fixed point.

On 10/16/2013 12:02 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> Isn't Mu-law quite likely? Have you tried that? It was widely used for 8-bit samples, so it'd have been current when people moved up to 12-bit.
> According to this Wikipedia article, there's an "A law" variant too - same idea, different curve.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?-law_algorithm
>
> (Compare the image at the bottom of the page with your R100_first_ramp.jpg)
>
> Either way, you're just hunting for a compensation curve. Cheater's idea of deriving it by experiment isn't too far out - it might be doable with sufficient accuracy.
>
> I can see real benefits to be had from such an encoding on a drum sample system, since drum hits typically have a short loud peak, followed by a longer body of sound at a much reduced (and reducing) amplitude. With a limited 12-bit resolution, that'd mean that most of your signal will actually be only 8 or 10 bit. Anything you can do to mitigate against that is going to be a plus.
>
> T.


From gsn10 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 16 21:40:57 2013
From: gsn10 at hotmail.com (Scott Nordlund)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:40:57 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <A1AA4367-7765-4D62-BB2F-A377A538B66E@electricdruid.net>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>,
	<A1AA4367-7765-4D62-BB2F-A377A538B66E@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <BLU174-W348B395272EE0AADA67FCBB4040@phx.gbl>

Several drum machines did use Mu-law encoding (Drumulator or something; I don't remember). And several others used floating point DACs (various Yamaha models since they were into that sort of thing). But you'd be able to tell this from the DAC circuits themselves. I do think it's likely that the waveforms are stored in logarithmic format, which is exponentiated before being sent to the DAC, but for a different reason. Two part question: (1) Is it possible to control the amplitudes of the individual drum sounds? (2) Is it a multiplying DAC configuration where the sounds are scaled by a time-multiplexed control voltage fed into the DAC's Vref pin? If (1) is yes and (2) is no, it's most likely that the wave data is stored in a logarithmic format for easier amplitude control. As in the DX7, amplitude is controlled by adding the amplitude value to the logarithmic format waveform data, then passing the result through an exponential table. y = exp(log(a)+log(b)) is equivalent to y = a*b. It's more efficient because it requires only a lookup table rather than a multiplier.

> From: tom at electricdruid.net
> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 20:02:57 +0100
> To: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
> 
> Isn't Mu-law quite likely? Have you tried that? It was widely used for 8-bit samples, so it'd have been current when people moved up to 12-bit.
> According to this Wikipedia article, there's an "A law" variant too - same idea, different curve.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?-law_algorithm
> 
> (Compare the image at the bottom of the page with your R100_first_ramp.jpg)
> 
> Either way, you're just hunting for a compensation curve. Cheater's idea of deriving it by experiment isn't too far out - it might be doable with sufficient accuracy.
> 
> I can see real benefits to be had from such an encoding on a drum sample system, since drum hits typically have a short loud peak, followed by a longer body of sound at a much reduced (and reducing) amplitude. With a limited 12-bit resolution, that'd mean that most of your signal will actually be only 8 or 10 bit. Anything you can do to mitigate against that is going to be a plus.
> 
> T. 		 	   		  

From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Thu Oct 17 18:41:52 2013
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (MTG)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 09:41:52 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <BLU174-W348B395272EE0AADA67FCBB4040@phx.gbl>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>,
	<A1AA4367-7765-4D62-BB2F-A377A538B66E@electricdruid.net>
	<BLU174-W348B395272EE0AADA67FCBB4040@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <52601350.9060804@musictechnologiesgroup.com>

Nailed it!  (I think)

On 10/16/2013 12:40 PM, Scott Nordlund wrote:
> Several drum machines did use Mu-law encoding (Drumulator or something; I don't remember).
 > And several others used floating point DACs (various Yamaha models 
since they were
 > into that sort of thing). But you'd be able to tell this from the DAC 
circuits
> themselves.
> I do think it's likely that the waveforms are stored in logarithmic format, which is
 > exponentiated before being sent to the DAC, but for a different 
reason. Two part question:
 > (1) Is it possible to control the amplitudes of the individual drum 
sounds?

YES

> (2) Is it a multiplying DAC configuration where the sounds are scaled by a
 > time-multiplexed control voltage fed into the DAC's Vref pin?

NO

> If (1) is yes and (2) is no,it's most likely that the wave data is stored in a
 >logarithmic format for easier amplitude control. As in the DX7, 
amplitude is
 >controlled by adding the amplitude value to the logarithmic format 
waveform data,
 >then passing the result through an exponential table. y = 
exp(log(a)+log(b)) is
 >equivalent to y = a*b. It's more efficient because it requires only a 
lookup table
 >rather than a multiplier.

It is a multiplying DAC, but Vref is fixed. Your comments make perfect 
sense... volume control by addition.  And Kawai was probably down the 
street so to speak from Yamaha. So is there any common logarithmic 
method from that period?  Should I just try log10 or loge and see what 
pops out?

I'm dealing with 11 data bits plus sign. And the chord/step DAT thingy I 
described (that resembles u_law) provides a close approximation. Not 
close enough mind you. So I guess u-Law is a similar logarithmic method.

I don't have my Hal Chamberlin book handy, buy perhaps he discusses this...?

GB


From juzowen at gmail.com  Thu Oct 17 19:17:33 2013
From: juzowen at gmail.com (Justin Owen)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Gerbv install help
Message-ID: <52601bad.2123b40a.4e07.5c5e@mx.google.com>

Hi all,

Does anyone have a tarball .tar of the latest version of Gerbv that will run under Fink (via Mac OSX 10.8.5) that they could email me off list?

Alternatively, is there another way of getting gerbv installed under Fink or an alternate package database?

I'm setting up a new Mac, have Fink working but the fink package database has apparently been down for months so I can't access the files <http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/package.php/gerbv>. The 'new' package search engine doesn't seem to list gerbv (or gEDA for that matter) <http://fink.thetis.ig42.org/pdb/browse.php?summary=gerbv>

Obviously this is Open Source - so I hope nobody minds the request.

Thanks.

Justin





From ol.gillet at gmail.com  Thu Oct 17 19:26:51 2013
From: ol.gillet at gmail.com (Olivier Gillet)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 19:26:51 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Gerbv install help
In-Reply-To: <52601bad.2123b40a.4e07.5c5e@mx.google.com>
References: <52601bad.2123b40a.4e07.5c5e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJoLJ5XPVz1PJAVyW4yexakmmk6aoN54otu2ewmrtTP6EbwAOA@mail.gmail.com>

I have recently installed it on a new machine without any problem with MacPorts.

Olivier

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone have a tarball .tar of the latest version of Gerbv that will run under Fink (via Mac OSX 10.8.5) that they could email me off list?
>
> Alternatively, is there another way of getting gerbv installed under Fink or an alternate package database?
>
> I'm setting up a new Mac, have Fink working but the fink package database has apparently been down for months so I can't access the files <http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/package.php/gerbv>. The 'new' package search engine doesn't seem to list gerbv (or gEDA for that matter) <http://fink.thetis.ig42.org/pdb/browse.php?summary=gerbv>
>
> Obviously this is Open Source - so I hope nobody minds the request.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Justin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From charlie at finitemonkeys.com  Thu Oct 17 19:30:31 2013
From: charlie at finitemonkeys.com (charlie wallace)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:30:31 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Gerbv install help
In-Reply-To: <52601bad.2123b40a.4e07.5c5e@mx.google.com>
References: <52601bad.2123b40a.4e07.5c5e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAH2ZmX=tsZv68JL1sU9GhREGgwMRR=wetJiKt2kE8OM7PM7OqA@mail.gmail.com>

fink is long dead i believe, i switched to homebrew (remove fink
first) it has a gerbv rule http://brew.sh/

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone have a tarball .tar of the latest version of Gerbv that will run under Fink (via Mac OSX 10.8.5) that they could email me off list?
>
> Alternatively, is there another way of getting gerbv installed under Fink or an alternate package database?
>
> I'm setting up a new Mac, have Fink working but the fink package database has apparently been down for months so I can't access the files <http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/package.php/gerbv>. The 'new' package search engine doesn't seem to list gerbv (or gEDA for that matter) <http://fink.thetis.ig42.org/pdb/browse.php?summary=gerbv>
>
> Obviously this is Open Source - so I hope nobody minds the request.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Justin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From alvitar at xavax.com  Thu Oct 17 21:26:36 2013
From: alvitar at xavax.com (Phil Harbison)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 15:26:36 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Gerbv install help
In-Reply-To: <CAH2ZmX=tsZv68JL1sU9GhREGgwMRR=wetJiKt2kE8OM7PM7OqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52601bad.2123b40a.4e07.5c5e@mx.google.com>
	<CAH2ZmX=tsZv68JL1sU9GhREGgwMRR=wetJiKt2kE8OM7PM7OqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <526039EC.20306@xavax.com>

charlie wallace wrote:
> fink is long dead i believe, i switched to homebrew (remove fink
> first) it has a gerbv rule http://brew.sh/

Homebrew appears to be the best package manager for the Mac. I am
amazed at how active the Homebrew community is. If I go even a few
days, I'll see half a dozen or more new or updated formulae. It's
what we use at The Weather Channel where we're rapidly phasing out
windoze in favor of MacOSX.

-- 
Phil Harbison




From mr at analogue.org  Thu Oct 17 22:24:47 2013
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 22:24:47 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBXhepZCox1+7gV2mHBLfE4af47yAd=Y1qfi8e13cv1+OA@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for a late reply - this thread is interesting but I'm not sure
if everything is that much clearer. ;-) Tom wrote "Schematics can be
copyrighted. You can't copy someone else's copyrighted schematic. Draw
your own." and it makes me wonder what we mean with all the words...
The schematic is not what is cloned and sold, so... And what if I draw
my own? That is, draw my own schematic [picture] of the same circuit
construction, and then build it and sell it? Or perhaps it referred to
the PCB layout? Or the circuit construction?

I can come to think of some different aspects of all this
cloning/copying/reusing/inspirational work, and some different degrees
of reusing stuff. To get things straight, what is your legal viewpoint
of the following acts:


1 - to use the same PCB layout


2a - to use the same (unpatented) circuit construction

2b - to use PARTS OF the same (unpatented) circuit construction,
together with own work


3a - to use the same panel print & exterior design

3b - to use the same STYLE of panel print & exterior design


4a - to sell the result as a finished product

4b - to sell it as a kit for the buyer to build, including all parts

4c - to sell it as a kit for the buyer to build, NOT including most
electronic components


5a - to include the original product name in the new product name

5b - to HINT at the original product name in the new product name

5c - to mention the original product name when describing and selling
the product


/mr


On 6 October 2013 17:58, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> There are no legal issues of cloning, unless a) you use trademarked or
> copyrighted materials in your design (like putting the company logo on the
> panel) or b) there are elements under patent protection (unlikely, given
> that patents are only good for 17 to 20 years from the priority date, which
> will be long past for all this stuff).
>
> Opposing viewpoints welcome!
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of GGG
>> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 12:38 AM
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
>>
>> Dear collegues,
>>       There are lot of classical synth clones arround,
>> available as DIY kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80
>> VCF, there are active discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT,
>> about to be on sale.
>>       I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths?
>> What's a procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy
>> to get a permissoin from producers , like Korg or Yamaha,
>> just because of hudge scale of companies and beurocracy and
>> Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of the clone
>> adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is
>> this still considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree
>> of upgrades, one should add?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Girts
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From mr at analogue.org  Thu Oct 17 22:33:28 2013
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 22:33:28 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog
	Prodigy)
In-Reply-To: <0E49D305A8CF47648861C7410D328FD7@artefactd2a9b3>
References: <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>
	<0E49D305A8CF47648861C7410D328FD7@artefactd2a9b3>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBXwpyUQr=dpW86bHqUsPc+BSqoaDGXjVEs0KvuFUyoWcw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 October 2013 00:29, Veronica Merryfield <veronica at merryfield.ca> wrote:
> You can turn a linear pot into a log pot with the addition of a resistor from the output to one end of the wiper.

When the pot gets scratchy - i.e., the resistance between the wiper
and the resistive track fluctuates when turned or even when still -
then this solution is said to give more problems with unwanted noise
since much more current is drawn through the wiper. Current through
the fluctuating resistance gives a fluctuating voltage, a.k.a. noise,
to your signal.

But ah, since it's the LFO rate, it's probably not that critical
though. I expected it to be the resonance pot. :-)

/mr



On 10 October 2013 10:01, Maarten Halmans <diy at artefacts.nl> wrote:
> Banzai has 3M reverse log cts pots:
> http://www.banzaimusic.com/CTS-Pot-3M-REVERSE-log.html
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Laboratory of Sound"
> <info at labofsound.com>
> To: "synth-diy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 9:04 PM
> Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog Prodigy)
>
>
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am having the hardest time finding a 2.5 Meg ccw audio/reverse log
>> potentiometer, preferably with a 1/4" or 6.3 mm D type shaft. I need it to
>> repair the LFO rate of a Moog Prodigy (someone replaced the 2.5 Meg with a
>> 100 K pot so that it can only produce fast rates). Any help would be greatly
>> appreciated.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> --
>> The Laboratory of Sound
>> Duivenvoordestraat 28
>> 2341 JE Oegstgeest
>> The Netherlands
>>
>> T +31 71 517 0230
>>
>> www.labofsound.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From roglok at hyperground.de  Thu Oct 17 22:45:40 2013
From: roglok at hyperground.de (roglok)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 22:45:40 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBXhepZCox1+7gV2mHBLfE4af47yAd=Y1qfi8e13cv1+OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>
	<CAP92RBXhepZCox1+7gV2mHBLfE4af47yAd=Y1qfi8e13cv1+OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A51DD56-2076-48F5-98B3-ADC6F08BBF74@hyperground.de>

> 1 - to use the same PCB layout

copyright infringement

> 2a - to use the same (unpatented) circuit construction

no legal issues

> 2b - to use PARTS OF the same (unpatented) circuit construction,
> together with own work

no legal issues

> 3a - to use the same panel print & exterior design

copyright (and potentially trademark) infringement

> 3b - to use the same STYLE of panel print & exterior design

define STYLE closer - otherwise it's a moot point

> 4a - to sell the result as a finished product
> 
> 4b - to sell it as a kit for the buyer to build, including all parts
> 
> 4c - to sell it as a kit for the buyer to build, NOT including most
> electronic components
 
not sure what you are trying to get at... it's still about the same question: 
does the "result" infringe on copyright/trademarks/patents or not?
if not, no legal problems. if yes, you can get into trouble.

> 5a - to include the original product name in the new product name
> 
> 5b - to HINT at the original product name in the new product name
> 
> 5c - to mention the original product name when describing and selling
> the product

a product name can not be copyrighted, but trademarked. 
if the trademark is still active, you could potentially get sued...

i think what's confusing you are the following distinct IP rights/laws:

- copyright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
- trademark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark
- patent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent

skimming through these articles should make things a bit clearer...

cheers
roglok




On 17.10.2013, at 22:24, Mattias Rickardsson wrote:

> Sorry for a late reply - this thread is interesting but I'm not sure
> if everything is that much clearer. ;-) Tom wrote "Schematics can be
> copyrighted. You can't copy someone else's copyrighted schematic. Draw
> your own." and it makes me wonder what we mean with all the words...
> The schematic is not what is cloned and sold, so... And what if I draw
> my own? That is, draw my own schematic [picture] of the same circuit
> construction, and then build it and sell it? Or perhaps it referred to
> the PCB layout? Or the circuit construction?
> 
> I can come to think of some different aspects of all this
> cloning/copying/reusing/inspirational work, and some different degrees
> of reusing stuff. To get things straight, what is your legal viewpoint
> of the following acts:
> 
> 
> 1 - to use the same PCB layout
> 
> 
> 2a - to use the same (unpatented) circuit construction
> 
> 2b - to use PARTS OF the same (unpatented) circuit construction,
> together with own work
> 
> 
> 3a - to use the same panel print & exterior design
> 
> 3b - to use the same STYLE of panel print & exterior design
> 
> 
> 4a - to sell the result as a finished product
> 
> 4b - to sell it as a kit for the buyer to build, including all parts
> 
> 4c - to sell it as a kit for the buyer to build, NOT including most
> electronic components
> 
> 
> 5a - to include the original product name in the new product name
> 
> 5b - to HINT at the original product name in the new product name
> 
> 5c - to mention the original product name when describing and selling
> the product
> 
> 
> /mr
> 
> 
> On 6 October 2013 17:58, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> There are no legal issues of cloning, unless a) you use trademarked or
>> copyrighted materials in your design (like putting the company logo on the
>> panel) or b) there are elements under patent protection (unlikely, given
>> that patents are only good for 17 to 20 years from the priority date, which
>> will be long past for all this stuff).
>> 
>> Opposing viewpoints welcome!
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of GGG
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 12:38 AM
>>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
>>> 
>>> Dear collegues,
>>>      There are lot of classical synth clones arround,
>>> available as DIY kits - I've built TR909, Polivoks VCF, CS-80
>>> VCF, there are active discussions on ARP 2600 clone KIT,
>>> about to be on sale.
>>>      I wonder, what are the legal issues of cloning synths?
>>> What's a procedure of getting permission (I doubt, it's easy
>>> to get a permissoin from producers , like Korg or Yamaha,
>>> just because of hudge scale of companies and beurocracy and
>>> Polivoks is dead end at all). If a developer of the clone
>>> adds some sigificant upgrades to the original schematics - is
>>> this still considered as a direct clone, or what's a degree
>>> of upgrades, one should add?
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Girts
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Oct 17 22:47:42 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 13:47:42 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Legal issues of cloning
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBXhepZCox1+7gV2mHBLfE4af47yAd=Y1qfi8e13cv1+OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007801cec266$ec2da470$c488ed50$@fgi.lv>
	<1ED7B6C0CA5849FC86B1FDDDC61EEDED@galvanox01>
	<CAP92RBXhepZCox1+7gV2mHBLfE4af47yAd=Y1qfi8e13cv1+OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F5093C564E6A45C2B6CB5867C398FF8E@galvanox01>

Gawd, I love this topic...

As with most moral/ethical dilemmas, a satisfactory answer can be found in
the Golden Rule (Jesus) and/or the Categorical Imperative (Immanuel Kant).

If you designed a circuit and were trying to make money off it, would you
like it if some upstart copied it and started selling it without your
involvement?  Obviously not.  Therefore, it's wrong.  Don't do it.

If you designed a circuit many years ago but had stopped trying to make
money off it, would you care if some upstart etc?  Probably not, but you'd
probably appreciate being asked.  Therefore, ask first.

If you designed a circuit many years ago and are now dead, would you care,
etc?  Obviously not.  Therefore, copy away.

To address the specific questions posed:
 
> I can come to think of some different aspects of all this 
> cloning/copying/reusing/inspirational work, and some 
> different degrees of reusing stuff. To get things straight, 
> what is your legal viewpoint of the following acts:

I don't have any legal opinions, as I'm not a lawyer, but...

> 1 - to use the same PCB layout

If you found it somewhere, and it doesn't have a little encircled "c" on it,
and you know the creator doesn't care, then go for it.  If there is even a
chance that the creator cares, then ask him or her first or leave it alone.

> 2a - to use the same (unpatented) circuit construction

See my answer to 1.

> 2b - to use PARTS OF the same (unpatented) circuit 
> construction, together with own work

Parts are OK, I think (within reason).  Otherwise, the field of electronics
could never advance.  Still, if it's the novel part of a novel design, it
doesn't hurt to ask.

> 3a - to use the same panel print & exterior design

At that point, the creator had better be making a royalty.

> 3b - to use the same STYLE of panel print & exterior design

See my answer to 1.

> 4a - to sell the result as a finished product

If you don't sell it, then all this is moot: Do what you want.

> 4b - to sell it as a kit for the buyer to build, including all parts

That's still selling it.  See my answer to 1.

> 4c - to sell it as a kit for the buyer to build, NOT 
> including most electronic components

Doesn't matter, that's still selling it.  The creator has no claim on a
bunch of resistors and ICs.

> 5a - to include the original product name in the new product name

If the name is trademarked, then you had better ask permission.  I think
this is generally bad practice, though, because it smells like fraud.

> 5b - to HINT at the original product name in the new product name

I've done this in a cheeky way (the Korgasmatron) and I didn't feel any
qualms about it, since the circuit was original, nobody is going to get the
Korgasmatron confused with a Korg product, we didn't use the logo, and the
name was just too inspired not to use.  If Korg even knows, they don't seem
to care (and why should they?).

> 5c - to mention the original product name when describing and 
> selling the product

I don't see a problem with that, as long as no endorsement is implied.



From gsn10 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 18 01:55:30 2013
From: gsn10 at hotmail.com (Scott Nordlund)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 19:55:30 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?
In-Reply-To: <52601350.9060804@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
References: <525EC85B.6070606@musictechnologiesgroup.com>,
	<A1AA4367-7765-4D62-BB2F-A377A538B66E@electricdruid.net>
	<BLU174-W348B395272EE0AADA67FCBB4040@phx.gbl>,
	<52601350.9060804@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
Message-ID: <BLU174-W222996A04CBB8E57C3A626B4050@phx.gbl>

At least Yamaha, Casio and apparently Kawai used the log-multiplication thing, though it wasn't universal. The Synclavier and Synergy didn't use it. It's an easy way to scale something digitally, provided you don't need interpolation or filtering (which both require actual multipliers). I think the idea is that the sign bit should be sent straight to the output, bypassing the exponential table. There's an example table here: http://yehar.com/blog/?p=665


> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 09:41:52 -0700
> From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
> To: gsn10 at hotmail.com; tom at electricdruid.net
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Reverse engineer an EPROM encoding?

> 
> It is a multiplying DAC, but Vref is fixed. Your comments make perfect 
> sense... volume control by addition.  And Kawai was probably down the 
> street so to speak from Yamaha. So is there any common logarithmic 
> method from that period?  Should I just try log10 or loge and see what 
> pops out?
> 
> I'm dealing with 11 data bits plus sign. And the chord/step DAT thingy I 
> described (that resembles u_law) provides a close approximation. Not 
> close enough mind you. So I guess u-Law is a similar logarithmic method.
> 
> I don't have my Hal Chamberlin book handy, buy perhaps he discusses this...?
> 
> GB 		 	   		  

From rominbayol at gmail.com  Fri Oct 18 04:08:02 2013
From: rominbayol at gmail.com (Robyn Mayol)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:08:02 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Gerbv install help
In-Reply-To: <52601bad.2123b40a.4e07.5c5e@mx.google.com>
References: <52601bad.2123b40a.4e07.5c5e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CA5AEAAA-9951-4D4C-8038-BA64C92D1CAA@gmail.com>

On 18/10/2013, at 4:17 AM, Justin Owen wrote:
> Alternatively, is there another way of getting gerbv installed under Fink or an alternate package database?

Yes, Geda natively runs om Mac these days!

http://www.msarnoff.org/geda-mac/

From lanterma at ece.gatech.edu  Fri Oct 18 05:17:33 2013
From: lanterma at ece.gatech.edu (Lanterman, Aaron)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 03:17:33 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] SSL eq topology
Message-ID: <23DC77B8-37F6-4F1B-A3B7-3FCC49D63DF3@ece.gatech.edu>

Dear SDIYers,

I was looking over the SSL equalizer schematics:

http://www.ka-electronics.com/images/SSL/ssl_82E02.pdf

http://www.ka-electronics.com/images/SSL/ssl_82E242.pdf

Particularly the high mid and low mid circuits (at the tops of the pages) but the others are similar. Has anyone seen this topology before? If so what is it called? I can't seem to find anything like it, even after pouring through however-many filter design textbooks and ap notes.

It's built around a fairly textbook and boring single op-amp bandpass filter, with a series cap and resistor at the input and a parallel cap and resistor in the negative feedback loop. But, the output is fed back to the positive input of the op-amp. I don't recall seeing that exact trick before on that particular configuration.

I slogged through the algebra and derived the transfer function. If the caps and the resistors are the same, things simplify, and you get an output at the peak that is between 1/2 and 1/3 of the input, depending on the Q setting, and at most 1/3 of the op amp output can be fed back to the positive input (I haven't looked at the feedback resistors in detail but presume it accomplishes that) before it would self-oscillation (at least "on paper.") The Q starts at 1/2 and increases from there as the positive feedback increases. The resistors aren't exactly the same, but they're close, and the caps are the same, so my approximations are probably on target.

- Aaron

From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Fri Oct 18 10:48:05 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:48:05 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog
	Prodigy)
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBXwpyUQr=dpW86bHqUsPc+BSqoaDGXjVEs0KvuFUyoWcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>	<0E49D305A8CF47648861C7410D328FD7@artefactd2a9b3>
	<CAP92RBXwpyUQr=dpW86bHqUsPc+BSqoaDGXjVEs0KvuFUyoWcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5260F5C5.1080106@mnet-online.de>

I still don't understand, why he does not simply adopt the capacitor to 
the existing potentiometer, to get the original speed (C21 in the 
earlier or C24 in the later version). If he has an working potentiometer 
with 100k, which suits the knob, then he simply has to increase the cap 
value to 68uF and he is done.


From gil_we at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 19 09:41:19 2013
From: gil_we at yahoo.com (Gil W.)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 00:41:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Prophet 5 Poly-Mod / Filter Env calibration
Message-ID: <1382168479.98633.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Hello friends !

Have a small question. Since I got it, my P5 acts the following way -

Under the Poly-Mod section if I set the Filter Env pot to minimum,
and select the Freq A button ON, then on the Filter Env section set Attack, Decay and Release to minimum,
turning the Sustain knob up and down, the pitch of Osc A changes as expected,
but one voice will always sound too sharp and out of tune in respect to the other four.

I wonder what should be re-set, or which trimpot is responsible for this.
 see the following trimpot but unsure which one to set:

P-Mod Env Balance (for all 5 voices)
Filter Balance (for all 5 voices)
Filter Scale (for all 5 voices)
P Mod Osc Balance

Thanks for any advice !


From tom at electricdruid.net  Sat Oct 19 11:40:16 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 10:40:16 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Prophet 5 Poly-Mod / Filter Env calibration
In-Reply-To: <1382168479.98633.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1382168479.98633.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FD87F9CE-1F92-4A7C-AF2C-081A9768E2B4@electricdruid.net>

Looking at the service manual (I was looking at Rev 3 - you didn't say which you have) I'd say try the P-Mod Env Balance trimmer for the voice at fault. It adjusts the envelope as it goes through the CA3280 VCA to the PolyMod, and an offset there would give the effect you're getting.
The P Mod Osc might do the same job since it also adjusts the offsets on the Poly Mod, but it's not really the right trim for the job.


On 19 Oct 2013, at 08:41, Gil W. <gil_we at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello friends !
> 
> Have a small question. Since I got it, my P5 acts the following way -
> 
> Under the Poly-Mod section if I set the Filter Env pot to minimum,
> and select the Freq A button ON, then on the Filter Env section set Attack, Decay and Release to minimum,
> turning the Sustain knob up and down, the pitch of Osc A changes as expected,
> but one voice will always sound too sharp and out of tune in respect to the other four.
> 
> I wonder what should be re-set, or which trimpot is responsible for this.
> see the following trimpot but unsure which one to set:
> 
> P-Mod Env Balance (for all 5 voices)
> Filter Balance (for all 5 voices)
> Filter Scale (for all 5 voices)
> P Mod Osc Balance
> 
> Thanks for any advice !
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From gil_we at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 19 14:42:06 2013
From: gil_we at yahoo.com (Gil W.)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 05:42:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Prophet 5 Poly-Mod / Filter Env calibration
In-Reply-To: <FD87F9CE-1F92-4A7C-AF2C-081A9768E2B4@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <1382186526.2737.YahooMailBasic@web121402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Thanks, will try both suggestions and report !



--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 10/19/13, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [sdiy] Prophet 5 Poly-Mod / Filter Env calibration
 To: "Gil W." <gil_we at yahoo.com>
 Cc: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 Date: Saturday, October 19, 2013, 12:40 PM
 
 Looking at the service manual (I was
 looking at Rev 3 - you didn't say which you have) I'd say
 try the P-Mod Env Balance trimmer for the voice at fault. It
 adjusts the envelope as it goes through the CA3280 VCA to
 the PolyMod, and an offset there would give the effect
 you're getting.
 The P Mod Osc might do the same job since it also adjusts
 the offsets on the Poly Mod, but it's not really the right
 trim for the job.
 
 
 On 19 Oct 2013, at 08:41, Gil W. <gil_we at yahoo.com>
 wrote:
 
 > Hello friends !
 > 
 > Have a small question. Since I got it, my P5 acts the
 following way -
 > 
 > Under the Poly-Mod section if I set the Filter Env pot
 to minimum,
 > and select the Freq A button ON, then on the Filter Env
 section set Attack, Decay and Release to minimum,
 > turning the Sustain knob up and down, the pitch of Osc
 A changes as expected,
 > but one voice will always sound too sharp and out of
 tune in respect to the other four.
 > 
 > I wonder what should be re-set, or which trimpot is
 responsible for this.
 > see the following trimpot but unsure which one to set:
 > 
 > P-Mod Env Balance (for all 5 voices)
 > Filter Balance (for all 5 voices)
 > Filter Scale (for all 5 voices)
 > P Mod Osc Balance
 > 
 > Thanks for any advice !
 > _______________________________________________
 > Synth-diy mailing list
 > Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
 > http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
 
 


From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 19 20:03:00 2013
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 13:03:00 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Spice model for CA3080 OTA
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMx+2iK9nmUzQPS-9cay9wP-ynTR_zrhE3dtcinxjBabiFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACodTR80DiA2UcAv0=S_N6FnLBE2oEG0msAQ9tcYMFVA70xFrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACZGMxJ07CV1fWUu9ZV5g6_YL285415CohdU0wW3iLmSmXDsLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACodTR-Lg8c1vHxrgW5Un6G8XEi0xP0dT3cXKvMibyRWfavFug@mail.gmail.com>
	<44fc13039145c4b7a602b386f4cfbd4d@richieburnett.co.uk>
	<CACZGMx+2iK9nmUzQPS-9cay9wP-ynTR_zrhE3dtcinxjBabiFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACodTR_-T2ZXX+2fHxCOhTLXm+QN0g0u7XfjN6T9Y-WEfRrO5g@mail.gmail.com>

Quick update:

While I haven't solved the PCBs yet, I have built a CA3080 test
circuit (the unity gain follower from the datasheets) and proven that
the ones that were on the PCBs are good.

I also proved that the 25 I bought in 2012 are all crap. :(  So that
is a leading candidate for what was wrong with the breadboard version.

Thanks

Pete


On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Richie,
>
>> If the output of the filter sometimes mutes and sticks to one of the rails,
>> I'd hazzard a guess that there might be an op-amp in there somewhere who's
>> output undergoes phase-reversal when one of the inputs goes outside the
>> normal operating range.
>
> You could well be right.  The CA3080 datasheet does not say it does
> not go into phase reversal (gotta love those double-negatives!) so it
> could be the CA3080.  The datasheet for the OPA134 clearly states that
> it does NOT suffer phase reversal.
>
> Neil
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sat Oct 19 23:58:48 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 14:58:48 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Roland SH-201 problem
In-Reply-To: <1382168479.98633.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1382168479.98633.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6C711E1A83244F4982D82D2E8E3299EF@galvanox01>

One of my students has an SH-201 that is only about half working.  The Bank
switches and voices 1-4 work, but voices 5-8 don't.  A bunch of other stuff
doesn't work: about half of the features on the panel.

We opened it up and it is all digital, so of course I was useless.

Does anyone here have any insight into this problem?



From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Sun Oct 20 02:38:10 2013
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 02:38:10 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Roland SH-201 problem
In-Reply-To: <6C711E1A83244F4982D82D2E8E3299EF@galvanox01>
References: <1382168479.98633.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<6C711E1A83244F4982D82D2E8E3299EF@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <526325F2.5090807@mnet-online.de>

Hello David

I don't own a SH-201 and never have seen its inards or a service manual, 
but this reads like one bus line for the matrix of the panel switches is 
broken. At least if I assume, that the switch reading on the panel of 
these modern pieces doesn't work different from the 80ies gear.


Florian


On 19.10.13 23:58 , David G Dixon wrote:
> One of my students has an SH-201 that is only about half working.  The Bank
> switches and voices 1-4 work, but voices 5-8 don't.  A bunch of other stuff
> doesn't work: about half of the features on the panel.
>
> We opened it up and it is all digital, so of course I was useless.
>
> Does anyone here have any insight into this problem?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>



From veronica at merryfield.ca  Sun Oct 20 02:45:49 2013
From: veronica at merryfield.ca (Veronica Merryfield)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 17:45:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Roland SH-201 problem
In-Reply-To: <6C711E1A83244F4982D82D2E8E3299EF@galvanox01>
References: <1382168479.98633.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<6C711E1A83244F4982D82D2E8E3299EF@galvanox01>
Message-ID: <C08D8D73-7B23-4668-8C0E-3363E21EAE74@merryfield.ca>

For service manual - http://elektrotanya.com/roland_sh-201.pdf/download.html

On 2013-10-19, at 2:58 PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:

> One of my students has an SH-201 that is only about half working.  The Bank
> switches and voices 1-4 work, but voices 5-8 don't.  A bunch of other stuff
> doesn't work: about half of the features on the panel.
> 
> We opened it up and it is all digital, so of course I was useless.
> 
> Does anyone here have any insight into this problem?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 



From info at labofsound.com  Sun Oct 20 21:39:47 2013
From: info at labofsound.com (The Laboratory of Sound)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 21:39:47 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Sourcing a 2.5 Meg reverse log potentiometer (Moog
 Prodigy)
In-Reply-To: <5260F5C5.1080106@mnet-online.de>
References: " <cacf65a7a83bbc906db2aad066a0d082@webmail.byte.nl>"
	<0E49D305A8CF47648861C7410D328FD7@artefactd2a9b3>
	<CAP92RBXwpyUQr=dpW86bHqUsPc+BSqoaDGXjVEs0KvuFUyoWcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5260F5C5.1080106@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <801f4ae6c1ae3717fbd528277a2e6054@webmail.byte.nl>

On 2013-10-18 10:48, Florian Anwander wrote:
> I still don't understand, why he does not simply adopt the capacitor
> to the existing potentiometer, to get the original speed (C21 in the
> earlier or C24 in the later version). If he has an working
> potentiometer with 100k, which suits the knob, then he simply has to
> increase the cap value to 68uF and he is done.

I should have mentioned that the 100K pot seems of not so good quality 
(plastic casing). A Moog Prodigy deserves better than that :) Maarten 
pointed me in the right direction. The 3Meg pot works like a charm and 
has a nice feel in the Prodigy, comparable to the synth's other pots.
The C21/C24 cap is a 2.7 uF precision film cap, also not that easy to 
source in a 68 uF version and cost wise probably the same if not more 
expensive than a new pot.

Thanks everybody for your kind input. I still have a lot to learn, and 
this helps a lot.

Cheers,

Jack

-- 
The Laboratory of Sound
Duivenvoordestraat 28
2341 JE Oegstgeest
The Netherlands

T +31 71 517 0230

www.labofsound.com


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Oct 21 00:17:56 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 23:17:56 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
Message-ID: <DUB123-W2764C2EB1772032A45E93997000@phx.gbl>

Hi chaps, does anyone know a direct replacement for, or at least the dimensions for the TR-909 tempo potentiometer?

Cheers,
Jack 		 	   		  

From roglok at hyperground.de  Mon Oct 21 14:04:39 2013
From: roglok at hyperground.de (roglok)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:04:39 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W2764C2EB1772032A45E93997000@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W2764C2EB1772032A45E93997000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <789C312C-8CAB-4EBD-9762-B23D28A18899@hyperground.de>

it's the same as the TR-707/TR-727 tempo knob.
Technology Transplant made replicas of these - you can find them on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200919145401

On 21.10.2013, at 00:17, Jack Jackson wrote:

> Hi chaps, does anyone know a direct replacement for, or at least the dimensions for the TR-909 tempo potentiometer?
> 
> Cheers,
> Jack 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Oct 21 15:03:43 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:03:43 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
In-Reply-To: <789C312C-8CAB-4EBD-9762-B23D28A18899@hyperground.de>
References: <DUB123-W2764C2EB1772032A45E93997000@phx.gbl>,
	<789C312C-8CAB-4EBD-9762-B23D28A18899@hyperground.de>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W448814D4F94CB86B75C73897010@phx.gbl>

Thanks, It's the potentiometer I'm looking for.

Spoke to Roland UK the guy said it was 16mm, probably an Alps and gave me another random part number for it : EWHLNAF20B54.

So current specs I've got:
50k
D shape shaft
16mm shaft length
3 legs (no other legs to secure it to the PCB)

Cheers,
Jack

> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
> From: roglok at hyperground.de
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:04:39 +0200
> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
> 
> it's the same as the TR-707/TR-727 tempo knob.
> Technology Transplant made replicas of these - you can find them on eBay
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200919145401
> 
> On 21.10.2013, at 00:17, Jack Jackson wrote:
> 
>> Hi chaps, does anyone know a direct replacement for, or at least the dimensions for the TR-909 tempo potentiometer?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Jack 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 		 	   		  

From info at labofsound.com  Mon Oct 21 15:07:24 2013
From: info at labofsound.com (The Laboratory of Sound)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:07:24 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] =?utf-8?q?Roland_TR-909_Tempo_Potentiometer=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <789C312C-8CAB-4EBD-9762-B23D28A18899@hyperground.de>
References: <DUB123-W2764C2EB1772032A45E93997000@phx.gbl>
	<789C312C-8CAB-4EBD-9762-B23D28A18899@hyperground.de>
Message-ID: <60682ba1bab8aae08569dd65fe8bb828@webmail.byte.nl>

I think my name twin is looking for the potentiometer, while Technology 
Transplant afaik only replicated the Tempo knob. It is a 50K linear pot 
with a D type shaft (diameter 6 mm).

Cheers,

Jack


On 2013-10-21 14:04, roglok wrote:
> it's the same as the TR-707/TR-727 tempo knob.
> Technology Transplant made replicas of these - you can find them on 
> eBay
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200919145401
> 
> On 21.10.2013, at 00:17, Jack Jackson wrote:
> 
>> Hi chaps, does anyone know a direct replacement for, or at least the 
>> dimensions for the TR-909 tempo potentiometer?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Jack
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

-- 
The Laboratory of Sound
Duivenvoordestraat 28
2341 JE Oegstgeest
The Netherlands

T +31 71 517 0230

www.labofsound.com


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Oct 21 15:19:48 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:19:48 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
In-Reply-To: <60682ba1bab8aae08569dd65fe8bb828@webmail.byte.nl>
References: <DUB123-W2764C2EB1772032A45E93997000@phx.gbl>,
	<789C312C-8CAB-4EBD-9762-B23D28A18899@hyperground.de>,
	<60682ba1bab8aae08569dd65fe8bb828@webmail.byte.nl>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W369F1F239AB2CB0B46007C97010@phx.gbl>

Yes, exactly! The potentiometer. 6mm seems a bit small for the diameter, but could be. Where did you get that figure?

Here's a photo of it.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/27688089 at N03/2581737102/in/set-72157605658313676


And of course, if it interfaces with the Microprocessor, it'l be 50k and linear.

Cheers,
Jack
----------------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:07:24 +0200
> From: info at labofsound.com
> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
>
> I think my name twin is looking for the potentiometer, while Technology
> Transplant afaik only replicated the Tempo knob. It is a 50K linear pot
> with a D type shaft (diameter 6 mm).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jack
>
>
> On 2013-10-21 14:04, roglok wrote:
>> it's the same as the TR-707/TR-727 tempo knob.
>> Technology Transplant made replicas of these - you can find them on
>> eBay
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200919145401
>>
>> On 21.10.2013, at 00:17, Jack Jackson wrote:
>>
>>> Hi chaps, does anyone know a direct replacement for, or at least the
>>> dimensions for the TR-909 tempo potentiometer?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jack
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> --
> The Laboratory of Sound
> Duivenvoordestraat 28
> 2341 JE Oegstgeest
> The Netherlands
>
> T +31 71 517 0230
>
> www.labofsound.com
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From tom at electricdruid.net  Mon Oct 21 15:26:12 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:26:12 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W448814D4F94CB86B75C73897010@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W2764C2EB1772032A45E93997000@phx.gbl>,
	<789C312C-8CAB-4EBD-9762-B23D28A18899@hyperground.de>
	<DUB123-W448814D4F94CB86B75C73897010@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1B544242-7694-4967-AD16-13FF94E76933@electricdruid.net>

Here's the Technology Transplant page about their TR909 parts:

http://www.technologytransplant.com/index.php?cPath=5_14

That EWHetc  part number is the one from the service manual.

HTH,
Tom

On 21 Oct 2013, at 14:03, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Thanks, It's the potentiometer I'm looking for.
> 
> Spoke to Roland UK the guy said it was 16mm, probably an Alps and gave me another random part number for it : EWHLNAF20B54.
> 
> So current specs I've got:
> 50k
> D shape shaft
> 16mm shaft length
> 3 legs (no other legs to secure it to the PCB)
> 
> Cheers,
> Jack
> 
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
>> From: roglok at hyperground.de
>> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:04:39 +0200
>> CC: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> To: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
>> 
>> it's the same as the TR-707/TR-727 tempo knob.
>> Technology Transplant made replicas of these - you can find them on eBay
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200919145401
>> 
>> On 21.10.2013, at 00:17, Jack Jackson wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi chaps, does anyone know a direct replacement for, or at least the dimensions for the TR-909 tempo potentiometer?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jack 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Oct 21 15:26:35 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:26:35 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W369F1F239AB2CB0B46007C97010@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W2764C2EB1772032A45E93997000@phx.gbl>, ,
	<789C312C-8CAB-4EBD-9762-B23D28A18899@hyperground.de>, ,
	<60682ba1bab8aae08569dd65fe8bb828@webmail.byte.nl>,
	<DUB123-W369F1F239AB2CB0B46007C97010@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DUB123-W15EFE830288F1E665D227D97010@phx.gbl>

Sorry to spam, but in that photo, the shaft looks about the same width as the DIP package on the left. I checked and the width of a standard DIP package is ~6mm so that would concur with what you suggest Jack. I supposed the only real mystery now is the distance of the shaft from the pins of the pot as I imagine this is important to make sure it fits through the panel OK.

Cheers,
Jack2
----------------------------------------
> From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk
> To: info at labofsound.com; synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:19:48 +0100
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
>
> Yes, exactly! The potentiometer. 6mm seems a bit small for the diameter, but could be. Where did you get that figure?
>
> Here's a photo of it.
>
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/27688089 at N03/2581737102/in/set-72157605658313676
>
>
> And of course, if it interfaces with the Microprocessor, it'l be 50k and linear.
>
> Cheers,
> Jack
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:07:24 +0200
>> From: info at labofsound.com
>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Roland TR-909 Tempo Potentiometer?
>>
>> I think my name twin is looking for the potentiometer, while Technology
>> Transplant afaik only replicated the Tempo knob. It is a 50K linear pot
>> with a D type shaft (diameter 6 mm).
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>> On 2013-10-21 14:04, roglok wrote:
>>> it's the same as the TR-707/TR-727 tempo knob.
>>> Technology Transplant made replicas of these - you can find them on
>>> eBay
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200919145401
>>>
>>> On 21.10.2013, at 00:17, Jack Jackson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi chaps, does anyone know a direct replacement for, or at least the
>>>> dimensions for the TR-909 tempo potentiometer?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Jack
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>> --
>> The Laboratory of Sound
>> Duivenvoordestraat 28
>> 2341 JE Oegstgeest
>> The Netherlands
>>
>> T +31 71 517 0230
>>
>> www.labofsound.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 		 	   		  

From eric at ericframpton.com  Wed Oct 23 23:52:17 2013
From: eric at ericframpton.com (Eric Frampton)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 17:52:17 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Poly-800 10K slider pot?
Message-ID: <ECC670C2-A398-4384-8929-032B4FBFC0D6@ericframpton.com>

Hi there -

Does anybody have a single Poly-800 master tune slider I could buy/beg//trade? It's a 10K linear pot with a 5/8" shaft.

Once I get that pot replaced, this Poly will be ready to head out the door to the right person...

thanks,
Eric



From eric at ericframpton.com  Thu Oct 24 07:37:19 2013
From: eric at ericframpton.com (Eric Frampton)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 01:37:19 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Poly-800 10K slider pot?
Message-ID: <108B7F1A-B3C1-4225-A8B5-76A7413DE776@ericframpton.com>

Hi there -

Does anybody have a single Poly-800 master tune slider I could buy/beg//trade? It's a 10K linear pot with a 5/8" shaft.

Once I get that pot replaced, this Poly will be ready to head out the door to the right person...

thanks,
Eric



From antoniotuzzi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 24 09:37:12 2013
From: antoniotuzzi at gmail.com (Antonio Tuzzi)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 09:37:12 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] =?iso-8859-1?q?searching_3_x_DAC312_or_AM6012_or_=B5PC6012?=
Message-ID: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>

12 bit multiplying DAC
as used in the prophet 2002

if you have it for sale, let me know

Antonio



From antoniotuzzi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 24 09:57:10 2013
From: antoniotuzzi at gmail.com (Antonio Tuzzi)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 09:57:10 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]
	=?iso-8859-1?q?searching_3_x_DAC312_or_AM6012_or_=B5PC6012?=
In-Reply-To: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>
References: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37ED927C-6BF9-47EB-BB50-F29B3CA50E16@gmail.com>

sincerely I don't understand the big variety of prices on ebay...
from $3 to $50 ...  :)


On 24/ott/2013, at 09:37, Antonio Tuzzi <antoniotuzzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> 12 bit multiplying DAC
> as used in the prophet 2002
> 
> if you have it for sale, let me know
> 
> Antonio
> 



From steve at bendentech.co.uk  Thu Oct 24 10:29:29 2013
From: steve at bendentech.co.uk (Steve Lenham)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 09:29:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy]
 =?iso-8859-1?q?searching_3_x_DAC312_or_AM6012_or_=B5PC6012?=
In-Reply-To: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>
References: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5268DA69.4080708@bendentech.co.uk>

Hi,

DAC312 is still a current production item from Analog Devices - you can 
buy it brand new from all the usual distributors like Farnell, Mouser, 
Digikey.

With a one-off price around GBP7 (~$10) in DIP it isn't worth taking the 
risk on anything else. I bought some AM6012s from an arcade parts 
supplier in the US and they turned out to be fakes. Worse than that, 
they too were for a Prophet 2002 and they took out one of the CEM3379s :-(

HTH,

Steve L.

Benden Sound Technology
www.bendensound.co.uk


On 24/10/2013 08:37, Antonio Tuzzi wrote:
> 12 bit multiplying DAC
> as used in the prophet 2002
>
> if you have it for sale, let me know
>
> Antonio
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>



From 21pointy at tpg.com.au  Thu Oct 24 13:19:37 2013
From: 21pointy at tpg.com.au (Adam Inglis)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 21:19:37 +1000
Subject: [sdiy]
 =?iso-8859-1?q?searching_3_x_DAC312_or_AM6012_or_=B5PC6012?=
In-Reply-To: <37ED927C-6BF9-47EB-BB50-F29B3CA50E16@gmail.com>
References: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>
	<37ED927C-6BF9-47EB-BB50-F29B3CA50E16@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48D881F3-3274-4236-AE6A-2541F8A9D813@tpg.com.au>


On 24/10/2013, at 5:57 PM, Antonio Tuzzi wrote:

> sincerely I don't understand the big variety of prices on ebay...
> from $3 to $50 ...  :)
>


Maybe because it was used in some sought-after eighties gear like the  
Korg SDD 3000 and early Jupiter 8 ??





>
> On 24/ott/2013, at 09:37, Antonio Tuzzi <antoniotuzzi at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> 12 bit multiplying DAC
>> as used in the prophet 2002
>>
>> if you have it for sale, let me know
>>
>> Antonio
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>



From tom at electricdruid.net  Thu Oct 24 14:00:08 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:00:08 +0100
Subject: [sdiy]
 =?iso-8859-1?q?searching_3_x_DAC312_or_AM6012_or_=B5PC6012?=
In-Reply-To: <37ED927C-6BF9-47EB-BB50-F29B3CA50E16@gmail.com>
References: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>
	<37ED927C-6BF9-47EB-BB50-F29B3CA50E16@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E4C309F5-A4B0-430A-99B9-EAADCEF80154@electricdruid.net>

Errm, blatant profiteering?

Here's a link for Farnell:

http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/dac312hpz/ic-12bit-dac-dip20-312/dp/1079368

On 24 Oct 2013, at 08:57, Antonio Tuzzi <antoniotuzzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> sincerely I don't understand the big variety of prices on ebay...
> from $3 to $50 ...  :)
> 
> 
> On 24/ott/2013, at 09:37, Antonio Tuzzi <antoniotuzzi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 12 bit multiplying DAC
>> as used in the prophet 2002
>> 
>> if you have it for sale, let me know
>> 
>> Antonio
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From antoniotuzzi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 24 14:12:01 2013
From: antoniotuzzi at gmail.com (Antonio Tuzzi)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:12:01 +0200
Subject: [sdiy]
 =?utf-8?q?searching_3_x_DAC312_or_AM6012_or_=C2=B5PC6012?=
In-Reply-To: <E4C309F5-A4B0-430A-99B9-EAADCEF80154@electricdruid.net>
References: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>
	<37ED927C-6BF9-47EB-BB50-F29B3CA50E16@gmail.com>
	<E4C309F5-A4B0-430A-99B9-EAADCEF80154@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <C72793E7-9A61-4AA3-84F4-AEC04DDDE779@gmail.com>



> Il giorno 24/ott/2013, alle ore 14:00, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> ha scritto:
> 
> Errm, blatant profiteering?

:) exactly

all the big four (digikey, mouser, farnell and rs) have in stock

best price (for me) included taxes and shipping was from RS...

thanks!
at

> 
> Here's a link for Farnell:
> 
> http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/dac312hpz/ic-12bit-dac-dip20-312/dp/1079368
> 
>> On 24 Oct 2013, at 08:57, Antonio Tuzzi <antoniotuzzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> sincerely I don't understand the big variety of prices on ebay...
>> from $3 to $50 ...  :)
>> 
>> 
>>> On 24/ott/2013, at 09:37, Antonio Tuzzi <antoniotuzzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 12 bit multiplying DAC
>>> as used in the prophet 2002
>>> 
>>> if you have it for sale, let me know
>>> 
>>> Antonio
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> 


From paul at fitvideo.co.uk  Thu Oct 24 16:41:33 2013
From: paul at fitvideo.co.uk (Paul Burns (Fitvideo))
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 15:41:33 +0100
Subject: [sdiy]
	=?iso-8859-1?q?searching_3_x_DAC312_or_AM6012_or_=B5PC6012?=
In-Reply-To: <E4C309F5-A4B0-430A-99B9-EAADCEF80154@electricdruid.net>
References: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>	<37ED927C-6BF9-47EB-BB50-F29B3CA50E16@gmail.com>
	<E4C309F5-A4B0-430A-99B9-EAADCEF80154@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <00c601ced0c7$22864fe0$6792efa0$@fitvideo.co.uk>

Speaking of blatant profiteering,

I need two of these , but there is no way I am paying these sort of prices!
Nor am I buying five at a time minimum!
http://uk.farnell.com/samtec/bcs-106-l-d-te/socket-2-54mm-vertical-2x6way/dp
/1766494
 
I can get 100 for just over a tenner from the Far East. 

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl
[mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Tom Wiltshire
Sent: 24 October 2013 13:00
To: Antonio Tuzzi
Cc: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] searching 3 x DAC312 or AM6012 or ?PC6012

Errm, blatant profiteering?

Here's a link for Farnell:

http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/dac312hpz/ic-12bit-dac-dip20-312/dp/107
9368

On 24 Oct 2013, at 08:57, Antonio Tuzzi <antoniotuzzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> sincerely I don't understand the big variety of prices on ebay...
> from $3 to $50 ...  :)
> 
> 
> On 24/ott/2013, at 09:37, Antonio Tuzzi <antoniotuzzi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 12 bit multiplying DAC
>> as used in the prophet 2002
>> 
>> if you have it for sale, let me know
>> 
>> Antonio
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From davebr at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 24 19:58:20 2013
From: davebr at earthlink.net (Dave Brown)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:58:20 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] FrontPanelExpress studs and standoffs
Message-ID: <000301ced0e2$a0888190$e19984b0$@earthlink.net>

I took the survey from FrontPanelExpress and gave them some comments.  They
called me to discuss and at the end sent me a sample of their standoffs and
studs.  They are quite nice.  They mill a hole on the rear of the panel and
then epoxy in a stud or standoff that has a flat head on it into the hole.
It is very secure and solid and there is no indication on the front that
there is anything on the rear.  Just thought I would pass this along.  I
could have used this feature on a couple of my designs to eliminate front
screw heads.

David J. Brown
Email davebr at earthlink.net
Website http://modularsynthesis.com





From paul at fitvideo.co.uk  Thu Oct 24 21:07:49 2013
From: paul at fitvideo.co.uk (Paul Burns (Fitvideo))
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 20:07:49 +0100
Subject: [sdiy]
	=?iso-8859-1?q?searching_3_x_DAC312_or_AM6012_or_=B5PC6012?=
In-Reply-To: <CA+9GZUi==t0KNwGNSaoj5o4qidftRY5AjocXdGoMUxcH2DBJZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26A4CECF-906A-45BA-BFF3-C9599A7B2FF5@gmail.com>	<37ED927C-6BF9-47EB-BB50-F29B3CA50E16@gmail.com>	<E4C309F5-A4B0-430A-99B9-EAADCEF80154@electricdruid.net>	<00c601ced0c7$22864fe0$6792efa0$@fitvideo.co.uk>
	<CA+9GZUi==t0KNwGNSaoj5o4qidftRY5AjocXdGoMUxcH2DBJZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01ced0ec$5585e2a0$0091a7e0$@fitvideo.co.uk>

?100 real, working ones?
D?.

Perhaps I have been lucky, but yes
it?s not like I am hunting for IR3109s or
worse
3 GBP each is unacceptable for headers 
 

Cheers and regards

Paul
From: cheater00 . [mailto:cheater00 at gmail.com] 
Sent: 24 October 2013 20:01
To: Paul Burns
Cc: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] searching 3 x DAC312 or AM6012 or ?PC6012


On 24 Oct 2013 16:44, "Paul Burns (Fitvideo)" <paul at fitvideo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Speaking of blatant profiteering,
>
> I need two of these , but there is no way I am paying these sort of
prices!
> Nor am I buying five at a time minimum!
>
http://uk.farnell.com/samtec/bcs-106-l-d-te/socket-2-54mm-vertical-2x6way/dp
> /1766494
>
> I can get 100 for just over a tenner from the Far East.
>
> Paul
100 real, working ones?
D.



From dlmanley at sonic.net  Fri Oct 25 17:38:52 2013
From: dlmanley at sonic.net (Dave Manley)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:38:52 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] About those ua726's you just bought...
Message-ID: <0893bd50-3a9f-49f1-9ae8-e693075cb46a@email.android.com>

http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/the-hidden-dangers-of-chopshop-electronics


-Dave


From juzowen at gmail.com  Fri Oct 25 17:52:29 2013
From: juzowen at gmail.com (Justin Owen)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
Message-ID: <526a93bd.c453b40a.5fbb.ffff84f1@mx.google.com>

Hello,

Taking my first few steps with LTspice. I'm simulating a simple Linear to Exponential converter running a VCA. I'm scoping/probing the sine wave output of the VCA.

For the linear current source I could run a scope of the linear CV input as it ramped from 0V to 2.5V and graph that against the VCA output to check it's linearity - now I'd like to have a similar exponential voltage source to graph the VCA output against using the Lin/Exp converter.

How would I do that in LTspice?

Got sort of close with an arbitrary voltage source reading of a linear source.

Thanks!



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri Oct 25 18:08:16 2013
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 17:08:16 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] About those ua726's you just bought...
In-Reply-To: <0893bd50-3a9f-49f1-9ae8-e693075cb46a@email.android.com>
References: <0893bd50-3a9f-49f1-9ae8-e693075cb46a@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <fc12344962959e740b8c52ef7859a2c2@richieburnett.co.uk>

> http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/the-hidden-dangers-of-chopshop-electronics

Not good.

Counterfeiting is becoming increasingly common with power electronics 
parts now too, like MOSFETs and IGBTs.  Fortunately these often fail 
early during soak testing, before they've been shipped out to a 
customer.  It's still a worrying trend though.

-Richie,


From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Fri Oct 25 18:32:57 2013
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 12:32:57 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for 2 x RC4739 dual low noise opamps...
Message-ID: <000601ced19f$ddce67a0$996b36e0$@oricom.ca>

Hi list,
I'm looking for 2 x RC4739 dual lo noise opamps...
These are discountinuous devices today.
Let me know if you have them.
Thanks

Jean-Pierre Desrochers 
www.blue-voodoo.com

Nothing's gonna change my world.. 
John Lennon




From mr at analogue.org  Fri Oct 25 20:22:15 2013
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 20:22:15 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <526a93bd.c453b40a.5fbb.ffff84f1@mx.google.com>
References: <526a93bd.c453b40a.5fbb.ffff84f1@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBXwBb6Ymfz5BqUwQ7wY8xOhRwLdjnwYsLXRp8zzQziYvg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

not a direct answer to your question but anyway:

The horizontal time axis can be plotted as logarithmic,
if that would be useful as some kind of alternative solution.

Maybe not. :-)

/mr


On 25 October 2013 17:52, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Taking my first few steps with LTspice. I'm simulating a simple Linear to Exponential converter running a VCA. I'm scoping/probing the sine wave output of the VCA.
>
> For the linear current source I could run a scope of the linear CV input as it ramped from 0V to 2.5V and graph that against the VCA output to check it's linearity - now I'd like to have a similar exponential voltage source to graph the VCA output against using the Lin/Exp converter.
>
> How would I do that in LTspice?
>
> Got sort of close with an arbitrary voltage source reading of a linear source.
>
> Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From rw at firstpr.com.au  Sat Oct 26 06:20:31 2013
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 15:20:31 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Mini ARP 2600 from Sweden as kits of parts
Message-ID: <526B430F.6080705@firstpr.com.au>

I don't recall this being mentioned on the list before:

  http://thehumancomparator.net

    Two Thousand Six Hundred (TTSH)

This is being discussed in a very long thread:

  http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=82997

It is a 73% size replica of the ARP 2600, last produced in 1981
(according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARP_2600), without a keyboard
and with no MIDI.  It has provision for a spring reverb.  The creator
and others will be providing kits of most parts as well as cases.

As far as I can tell, by looking at the photos and videos, the 3.5mm
switched sockets are similar or identical to those I researched here:

  http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/parts/3.5mm-sockets/

and which are available here in smallish quantities:

  http://erthenvar.com/store/jack35mmv

The later (late 2012 and after) production of these sockets by Wenzhou
QingPu Electronics Co solves a previous problem with the spring contact
deforming.  These new production sockets should work really well.

  - Robin



From antoniotuzzi at gmail.com  Sat Oct 26 12:05:07 2013
From: antoniotuzzi at gmail.com (Antonio Tuzzi)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 12:05:07 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] FS - FT  AD558JN 8 bit dac
Message-ID: <DB8BCF50-BD4E-4544-B25F-C3EA8F5DC671@gmail.com>

I have to get more am6012 or dac312


FS AD558JN $15 each 

or 2 in exchange for a dac312...


thanks
at




From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 16:19:40 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:19:40 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <526a93bd.c453b40a.5fbb.ffff84f1@mx.google.com>
References: <526a93bd.c453b40a.5fbb.ffff84f1@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+Ku4R+JAwEaYbaqCKmVegLWFE0Z37Lds3Tmaf=GbnVag@mail.gmail.com>

Use an arbitrary voltage source and set the equation to use "exp()"
with some time-based function.  E.g. "V=exp(time/100)".

Neil

On 25 October 2013 16:52, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Taking my first few steps with LTspice. I'm simulating a simple Linear to Exponential converter running a VCA. I'm scoping/probing the sine wave output of the VCA.
>
> For the linear current source I could run a scope of the linear CV input as it ramped from 0V to 2.5V and graph that against the VCA output to check it's linearity - now I'd like to have a similar exponential voltage source to graph the VCA output against using the Lin/Exp converter.
>
> How would I do that in LTspice?
>
> Got sort of close with an arbitrary voltage source reading of a linear source.
>
> Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



-- 
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From juzowen at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 19:39:10 2013
From: juzowen at gmail.com (Justin Owen)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 11:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Integrator output bias question
Message-ID: <526eaf4e.0a0db40a.1a8a.53ad@mx.google.com>

Can anyone explain why the output bias of an op amp integrator might be affected by the amplitude of the input waveform?

I've got a single integrator on a breadboard, the input is a +/-5V (10V PP) square wave at about 20Hz with a 50/50 mark space ratio. The output is a +/- 10V (20V PP) triangle wave - pretty much as expected.

If I adjust the mark/space ratio of the input square wave, it affects the bias upward or downward - which makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is that if I adjust the amplitude of the input waveform (possibly below a certain PP voltage?) - that also starts to affect the bias of the output waveform. It seems to want to head south to the negative rail.

I've since, reproduced similar behaviour in simulation - but I'm still no clearer...

What's causing this?

Thanks.

Justin









From juzowen at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 20:15:27 2013
From: juzowen at gmail.com (Justin Owen)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:15:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Integrator output bias question
Message-ID: <526eb7cf.54bdb40a.4cc9.2e60@mx.google.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Veronica Merryfield [veronica at merryfield.ca]

> Can you post the circuit? My suspicion is that you have not matched the input impedances.  

Sure...

I started with this: http://www.sdiy.org/juz/I_01a.png - pretty much every combo I tried, the output waveform of the active integrator wanted to head south.

I got to this: http://www.sdiy.org/juz/I_02a.png - which is what I have here on my breadboard.

The behaviour of the second sim and my bboard are similar - changing the input amplitude changes the output bias.

Thanks!






On Oct 28, 2013, at 11:39 AM, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Can anyone explain why the output bias of an op amp integrator might be affected by the amplitude of the input waveform?
>  
> I've got a single integrator on a breadboard, the input is a +/-5V (10V PP) square wave at about 20Hz with a 50/50 mark space ratio. The output is a +/- 10V (20V PP) triangle wave - pretty much as expected.
>  
> If I adjust the mark/space ratio of the input square wave, it affects the bias upward or downward - which makes sense.
>  
> What doesn't make sense to me is that if I adjust the amplitude of the input waveform (possibly below a certain PP voltage?) - that also starts to affect the bias of the output waveform. It seems to want to head south to the negative rail.
>  
> I've since, reproduced similar behaviour in simulation - but I'm still no clearer...
>  
> What's causing this?
>  
> Thanks.
>  
> Justin
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>  





From Stromeko at nexgo.de  Mon Oct 28 20:39:01 2013
From: Stromeko at nexgo.de (ASSI)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 20:39:01 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Integrator output bias question
In-Reply-To: <526eaf4e.0a0db40a.1a8a.53ad@mx.google.com>
References: <526eaf4e.0a0db40a.1a8a.53ad@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1695579.HxjULTXmuh@rainer.invalid>

On Monday 28 October 2013, 11:39:10, Justin Owen wrote:
> Can anyone explain why the output bias of an op amp integrator might be
> affected by the amplitude of the input waveform?

You might be seeing the effect of miniscule changes of the op-amp input 
current (ideally there'd be none).  Another possibility is that you swing 
too close to the rails where the op-amp loses drive; this will usually be 
more problematic towards the +V rail and keep on accumulating over many 
cycles.

> I've got a single integrator on a breadboard, the input is a +/-5V (10V
> PP) square wave at about 20Hz with a 50/50 mark space ratio. The output
> is a +/- 10V (20V PP) triangle wave - pretty much as expected.
> 
> If I adjust the mark/space ratio of the input square wave, it affects the
> bias upward or downward - which makes sense.
> 
> What doesn't make sense to me is that if I adjust the amplitude of the
> input waveform (possibly below a certain PP voltage?) - that also starts
> to affect the bias of the output waveform. It seems to want to head south
> to the negative rail.

Are you using an op-amp with JFET input perhaps?

> I've since, reproduced similar behaviour in simulation - but I'm still no
> clearer...

As a first measure, have exactly the same impedance from the non-inverting 
input to ground than you have between the integrator input and the inverting 
input of the op-amp.  Also, keep that impedance as low as possible (that 
means make the cap larger for the same time constant, which comes with its 
own set of problems).


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf rackAttack:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds



From don at till.com  Mon Oct 28 22:21:28 2013
From: don at till.com (Donald Tillman)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:21:28 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Integrator output bias question
In-Reply-To: <526eb7cf.54bdb40a.4cc9.2e60@mx.google.com>
References: <526eb7cf.54bdb40a.4cc9.2e60@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <684BB8BB-9CA6-42C1-9ABA-8F73BE776878@till.com>

On Oct 28, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:

> I started with this: http://www.sdiy.org/juz/I_01a.png - pretty much every combo I tried, the output waveform of the active integrator wanted to head south.

Ahhh... some issues:

1. It's never practical to run an integrator open loop.  The slightest input offset voltage will eventually drive the output to a rail.  

2. A high value bleed resistor across the cap should help.  But your input resistor is already way high.  So you'll want to scale that down, and the cap up.

3. In this particular simulation, the input waveform starts at a positive peak, which itself is a positive bias, and that could very well explain the downward direction of the output.

  -- Don
--
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com






From juzowen at gmail.com  Tue Oct 29 17:15:54 2013
From: juzowen at gmail.com (Justin Owen)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 09:15:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
Message-ID: <526fdf3a.0314b40a.3264.6b66@mx.google.com>

Still not having any luck with this.

I've tried scaling the arb voltage based on a 5V ramp using V=exp(V(Ramp)/2.8)-1 where (Ramp) is a 5V Pulse that ramps up from 0V to 5V across 1 second.

I've tried scaling exp() against time?V=exp(1.7917*time)-1.0 and a variation on Neil's suggestion of?V=exp(time/0.56)-1.

These all give pretty much the same results - but none of them have the exact curve I'm looking for which is:

0s = 0V (OK 0V = 0.15625)
0.2s = 0.3125V
0.4s = 0.625V
0.6s = 1.25V
0.8s = 2.5V
1s = 5V

Any other suggestions? Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Johnson [neil.johnson71 at gmail.com]
Received: 28.10.2013 15:19:41
To: Justin Owen
Cc: SDIY List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve

Use an arbitrary voltage source and set the equation to use "exp()"
with some time-based function.  E.g. "V=exp(time/100)".

Neil

On 25 October 2013 16:52, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Taking my first few steps with LTspice. I'm simulating a simple Linear to Exponential converter running a VCA. I'm scoping/probing the sine wave output of the VCA.
>
> For the linear current source I could run a scope of the linear CV input as it ramped from 0V to 2.5V and graph that against the VCA output to check it's linearity - now I'd like to have a similar exponential voltage source to graph the VCA output against using the Lin/Exp converter.
>
> How would I do that in LTspice?
>
> Got sort of close with an arbitrary voltage source reading of a linear source.
>
> Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



--  
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk




From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 29 17:31:48 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 16:31:48 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <526fdf3a.0314b40a.3264.6b66@mx.google.com>
References: <526fdf3a.0314b40a.3264.6b66@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxKZamoOO2qO43wAmqv_oWszq-eA+asXWguP=VncGBsq4A@mail.gmail.com>

Justin,

In future it would REALLY help if you ask what you actually want.  In
this case it's an easy bit of mathematical manipulation to come up
with the right exponent formula to plot what you want:

V=5*exp(3.466*(time-1))

Neil

On 29 October 2013 16:15, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Still not having any luck with this.
>
> I've tried scaling the arb voltage based on a 5V ramp using V=exp(V(Ramp)/2.8)-1 where (Ramp) is a 5V Pulse that ramps up from 0V to 5V across 1 second.
>
> I've tried scaling exp() against time V=exp(1.7917*time)-1.0 and a variation on Neil's suggestion of V=exp(time/0.56)-1.
>
> These all give pretty much the same results - but none of them have the exact curve I'm looking for which is:
>
> 0s = 0V (OK 0V = 0.15625)
> 0.2s = 0.3125V
> 0.4s = 0.625V
> 0.6s = 1.25V
> 0.8s = 2.5V
> 1s = 5V
>
> Any other suggestions? Thanks.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Johnson [neil.johnson71 at gmail.com]
> Received: 28.10.2013 15:19:41
> To: Justin Owen
> Cc: SDIY List
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
>
> Use an arbitrary voltage source and set the equation to use "exp()"
> with some time-based function.  E.g. "V=exp(time/100)".
>
> Neil
>
> On 25 October 2013 16:52, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Taking my first few steps with LTspice. I'm simulating a simple Linear to Exponential converter running a VCA. I'm scoping/probing the sine wave output of the VCA.
>>
>> For the linear current source I could run a scope of the linear CV input as it ramped from 0V to 2.5V and graph that against the VCA output to check it's linearity - now I'd like to have a similar exponential voltage source to graph the VCA output against using the Lin/Exp converter.
>>
>> How would I do that in LTspice?
>>
>> Got sort of close with an arbitrary voltage source reading of a linear source.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>
>
> --
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
>
>



-- 
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 29 17:38:37 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 16:38:37 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxKZamoOO2qO43wAmqv_oWszq-eA+asXWguP=VncGBsq4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <526fdf3a.0314b40a.3264.6b66@mx.google.com>
	<CACZGMxKZamoOO2qO43wAmqv_oWszq-eA+asXWguP=VncGBsq4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxJTGs-v4g4UA_ufQ=Fxjf3QoBx=EVPXePsq4jaH8vUsxw@mail.gmail.com>

Which can be simplified to

V=0.15621*exp(3.466*time)

Neil

On 29 October 2013 16:31, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Justin,
>
> In future it would REALLY help if you ask what you actually want.  In
> this case it's an easy bit of mathematical manipulation to come up
> with the right exponent formula to plot what you want:
>
> V=5*exp(3.466*(time-1))
>
> Neil
>
> On 29 October 2013 16:15, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Still not having any luck with this.
>>
>> I've tried scaling the arb voltage based on a 5V ramp using V=exp(V(Ramp)/2.8)-1 where (Ramp) is a 5V Pulse that ramps up from 0V to 5V across 1 second.
>>
>> I've tried scaling exp() against time V=exp(1.7917*time)-1.0 and a variation on Neil's suggestion of V=exp(time/0.56)-1.
>>
>> These all give pretty much the same results - but none of them have the exact curve I'm looking for which is:
>>
>> 0s = 0V (OK 0V = 0.15625)
>> 0.2s = 0.3125V
>> 0.4s = 0.625V
>> 0.6s = 1.25V
>> 0.8s = 2.5V
>> 1s = 5V
>>
>> Any other suggestions? Thanks.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Neil Johnson [neil.johnson71 at gmail.com]
>> Received: 28.10.2013 15:19:41
>> To: Justin Owen
>> Cc: SDIY List
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
>>
>> Use an arbitrary voltage source and set the equation to use "exp()"
>> with some time-based function.  E.g. "V=exp(time/100)".
>>
>> Neil
>>
>> On 25 October 2013 16:52, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Taking my first few steps with LTspice. I'm simulating a simple Linear to Exponential converter running a VCA. I'm scoping/probing the sine wave output of the VCA.
>>>
>>> For the linear current source I could run a scope of the linear CV input as it ramped from 0V to 2.5V and graph that against the VCA output to check it's linearity - now I'd like to have a similar exponential voltage source to graph the VCA output against using the Lin/Exp converter.
>>>
>>> How would I do that in LTspice?
>>>
>>> Got sort of close with an arbitrary voltage source reading of a linear source.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> http://www.njohnson.co.uk
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> http://www.njohnson.co.uk



-- 
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From tom at electricdruid.net  Wed Oct 30 01:10:27 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 00:10:27 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxKZamoOO2qO43wAmqv_oWszq-eA+asXWguP=VncGBsq4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <526fdf3a.0314b40a.3264.6b66@mx.google.com>
	<CACZGMxKZamoOO2qO43wAmqv_oWszq-eA+asXWguP=VncGBsq4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A431F82A-134A-4F47-83DE-C41ABA137CCA@electricdruid.net>

He did say "Taking my first few steps with LTspice". That includes doing maths with it. Mostly I don't understand what the hell even the interface is doing well enough. Getting the actual models to do what I want is a nice idea, but probably not happening without some pointing in the right the right direction. I think that's what he was after. It's not the world's most helpful software. On the plus side it's free, which is probably why we use it, like Eagle (similarly counter-intuitive and unhelpful).

T.


On 29 Oct 2013, at 16:31, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Justin,
> 
> In future it would REALLY help if you ask what you actually want.  In
> this case it's an easy bit of mathematical manipulation to come up
> with the right exponent formula to plot what you want:
> 
> V=5*exp(3.466*(time-1))
> 
> Neil
> 
> On 29 October 2013 16:15, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Still not having any luck with this.
>> 
>> I've tried scaling the arb voltage based on a 5V ramp using V=exp(V(Ramp)/2.8)-1 where (Ramp) is a 5V Pulse that ramps up from 0V to 5V across 1 second.
>> 
>> I've tried scaling exp() against time V=exp(1.7917*time)-1.0 and a variation on Neil's suggestion of V=exp(time/0.56)-1.
>> 
>> These all give pretty much the same results - but none of them have the exact curve I'm looking for which is:
>> 
>> 0s = 0V (OK 0V = 0.15625)
>> 0.2s = 0.3125V
>> 0.4s = 0.625V
>> 0.6s = 1.25V
>> 0.8s = 2.5V
>> 1s = 5V
>> 
>> Any other suggestions? Thanks.
>> 



From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 10:48:43 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 09:48:43 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <A431F82A-134A-4F47-83DE-C41ABA137CCA@electricdruid.net>
References: <526fdf3a.0314b40a.3264.6b66@mx.google.com>
	<CACZGMxKZamoOO2qO43wAmqv_oWszq-eA+asXWguP=VncGBsq4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<A431F82A-134A-4F47-83DE-C41ABA137CCA@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxKKW2kcnxwsgSGsveoSgPjSK9mxx78Car6P0ayTQB1F1Q@mail.gmail.com>

No, Tom, it's not about LTSpice, you missed the point.

It's about asking questions about the problem to solve, which the
first post didn't, yet the second post did and gave sufficient
information for a back of envelope calculation to result in an answer
that Justin could then use to solve the real problem.  Coming up with
the answer did not require LTSpice at all, just a bit of mathematical
juggling, but that was only possible once Justin had described the
actual problem (fitting a curve through a specific set of points).

Neil

On 30 October 2013 00:10, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> He did say "Taking my first few steps with LTspice". That includes doing maths with it. Mostly I don't understand what the hell even the interface is doing well enough. Getting the actual models to do what I want is a nice idea, but probably not happening without some pointing in the right the right direction. I think that's what he was after. It's not the world's most helpful software. On the plus side it's free, which is probably why we use it, like Eagle (similarly counter-intuitive and unhelpful).
>
> T.
>
>
> On 29 Oct 2013, at 16:31, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Justin,
>>
>> In future it would REALLY help if you ask what you actually want.  In
>> this case it's an easy bit of mathematical manipulation to come up
>> with the right exponent formula to plot what you want:
>>
>> V=5*exp(3.466*(time-1))
>>
>> Neil
>>
>> On 29 October 2013 16:15, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Still not having any luck with this.
>>>
>>> I've tried scaling the arb voltage based on a 5V ramp using V=exp(V(Ramp)/2.8)-1 where (Ramp) is a 5V Pulse that ramps up from 0V to 5V across 1 second.
>>>
>>> I've tried scaling exp() against time V=exp(1.7917*time)-1.0 and a variation on Neil's suggestion of V=exp(time/0.56)-1.
>>>
>>> These all give pretty much the same results - but none of them have the exact curve I'm looking for which is:
>>>
>>> 0s = 0V (OK 0V = 0.15625)
>>> 0.2s = 0.3125V
>>> 0.4s = 0.625V
>>> 0.6s = 1.25V
>>> 0.8s = 2.5V
>>> 1s = 5V
>>>
>>> Any other suggestions? Thanks.
>>>
>



-- 
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From juzowen at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 12:25:18 2013
From: juzowen at gmail.com (Justin Owen)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 04:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
Message-ID: <5270ec9e.2123b40a.09c3.ffffd877@mx.google.com>

Neil has a point - I could have phrased the question better.

In my defence, the questions I ask are generally about things I don't know or don't fully understand. Sometimes phrasing a question clearly relies on a better knowledge of the problem and it's variables than I actually have.

Now whether it required tutting at me quite so loudly is a different matter - but Neil answers a lot of my questions on this list, I'm not too big to admit that I've learnt from him but I am big enough to ignore it when he talks to me like some grumpy old man berating a naughty little boy. 

;)

x





-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Johnson [neil.johnson71 at gmail.com]
Received: 30.10.2013 09:48:43
To: Tom Wiltshire
Cc: Justin Owen; SDIY List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve

No, Tom, it's not about LTSpice, you missed the point.

It's about asking questions about the problem to solve, which the
first post didn't, yet the second post did and gave sufficient
information for a back of envelope calculation to result in an answer
that Justin could then use to solve the real problem.  Coming up with
the answer did not require LTSpice at all, just a bit of mathematical
juggling, but that was only possible once Justin had described the
actual problem (fitting a curve through a specific set of points).

Neil

On 30 October 2013 00:10, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> He did say "Taking my first few steps with LTspice". That includes doing maths with it. Mostly I don't understand what the hell even the interface is doing well enough. Getting the actual models to do what I want is a nice idea, but probably not happening without some pointing in the right the right direction. I think that's what he was after. It's not the world's most helpful software. On the plus side it's free, which is probably why we use it, like Eagle (similarly counter-intuitive and unhelpful).
>
> T.
>
>
> On 29 Oct 2013, at 16:31, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Justin,
>>
>> In future it would REALLY help if you ask what you actually want.  In
>> this case it's an easy bit of mathematical manipulation to come up
>> with the right exponent formula to plot what you want:
>>
>> V=5*exp(3.466*(time-1))
>>
>> Neil
>>
>> On 29 October 2013 16:15, Justin Owen <juzowen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Still not having any luck with this.
>>>
>>> I've tried scaling the arb voltage based on a 5V ramp using V=exp(V(Ramp)/2.8)-1 where (Ramp) is a 5V Pulse that ramps up from 0V to 5V across 1 second.
>>>
>>> I've tried scaling exp() against time V=exp(1.7917*time)-1.0 and a variation on Neil's suggestion of V=exp(time/0.56)-1.
>>>
>>> These all give pretty much the same results - but none of them have the exact curve I'm looking for which is:
>>>
>>> 0s = 0V (OK 0V = 0.15625)
>>> 0.2s = 0.3125V
>>> 0.4s = 0.625V
>>> 0.6s = 1.25V
>>> 0.8s = 2.5V
>>> 1s = 5V
>>>
>>> Any other suggestions? Thanks.
>>>
>



--  
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk




From juzowen at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 12:44:19 2013
From: juzowen at gmail.com (Justin Owen)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 04:44:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Integrator output bias question
Message-ID: <5270f113.e464b40a.4f99.ffffccf6@mx.google.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Tillman [don at till.com]

>> I started with this: http://www.sdiy.org/juz/I_01a.png - pretty much every combo I tried, the output waveform of the active integrator wanted to head south.  

> 2. A high value bleed resistor across the cap should help.  But your input resistor is already way high.  So you'll want to scale that down, and the cap up.


Thanks Don - that's a big improvement.

Cheers.

Justin









From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 12:53:33 2013
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:53:33 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <5270ec9e.2123b40a.09c3.ffffd877@mx.google.com>
References: <5270ec9e.2123b40a.09c3.ffffd877@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxKDFFHg5n14UEMMsK-6K7pua0qckFE9pUFic7nY7gD1mQ@mail.gmail.com>

Justin Owen wrote:
> Neil has a point - I could have phrased the question better.
>
> In my defence, the questions I ask are generally about things I don't know or don't fully understand. Sometimes phrasing a question clearly relies on a better knowledge of the problem and it's variables than I actually have.
>
> Now whether it required tutting at me quite so loudly is a different matter - but Neil answers a lot of my questions on this list, I'm not too big to admit that I've learnt from him but I am big enough to ignore it when he talks to me like some grumpy old man berating a naughty little boy.
>
> ;)

Yeah, maybe I tutted a bit too loudly - had quite a bit of tutting to
do yesterday at work (the glsl spec is a fine example of how NOT to
write a language spec *rolleyes*) and I guess I spilled out.  Sorry
about that, I guess I deserved the "grumpy old man" :)  Good luck with
the simulation!

Cheers,
Neil
--
http://www.njohnson.co.uk


From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Oct 30 14:17:20 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:17:20 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Implementing the IR3R01
Message-ID: <DUB123-W654483DC4A22267537B13970A0@phx.gbl>

After much drama, I finally got hold of a couple of IR3R01s.?

I'd like to breadboard one up to check it out. But I have a few questions about connections so I don't blow them up.


Pin 1: Key-Follow/MOD - For initial testing I'd like to leave this unconnected. Should I connect it to ground?

The ADSR pins have various current limiting resistors on their inputs (22K, 19k 4.7k, 19k respectively). I believe the JP8 feeds them a 0-5v control voltage, but I'm not sure. Is there anything else I should do to protect them?

Gate (pins 13 and 14): Page 12 of the service manual shows the circuit for generating the gate on the top left. As I understand it, the base of the transistor is fed 5v and the transistor works as a follower, providing 15v for the gate. Is that correct?

P.S. none of the topics from the last few weeks seem to be indexed on the SDIY mailing list site. What's up with that?

Cheers,
Jack 		 	   		  

From synthnerd at eircom.net  Wed Oct 30 16:41:37 2013
From: synthnerd at eircom.net (John Henson)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:41:37 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Implementing the IR3R01
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W654483DC4A22267537B13970A0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W654483DC4A22267537B13970A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <527128B1.20503@eircom.net>

Hello Jack,
The Juno 6 Service manual shows pin 1 tied directly to ground, and as I 
haven't seen any of these fail in a Juno, I assume that is safe.

John.


From list at mikebeauchamp.com  Wed Oct 30 20:04:34 2013
From: list at mikebeauchamp.com (Mike Beauchamp)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:04:34 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Repair person recommendation in/near Oslo Norway?
Message-ID: <1383159874.2883.18.camel@nwwtlaptop>

Can anyone recommend a repair person in or near Oslo Norway? I have a
customer with a synthesizer (therevox ET-4.3) that needs a switch
replaced.

This is a through-hole rotary switch with 14 pins that needs to be
desoldered and a new one (supplied) to be soldered in. The synth will
also need to be taken apart pretty significantly to get at the switch,
but I'm happy to provide instructions. 

Mike






From mr at analogue.org  Wed Oct 30 20:22:59 2013
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:22:59 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <A431F82A-134A-4F47-83DE-C41ABA137CCA@electricdruid.net>
References: <526fdf3a.0314b40a.3264.6b66@mx.google.com>
	<CACZGMxKZamoOO2qO43wAmqv_oWszq-eA+asXWguP=VncGBsq4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<A431F82A-134A-4F47-83DE-C41ABA137CCA@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBVOy+qf_RbTvALzVz5149TA6zYc9LKG55+yjS7gqdGygw@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 October 2013 01:10, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> LTspice [...]
> It's not the world's most helpful software.

Sadly chances are small that it will get any better in that respect.
There are lots of room for potential improvements, but every
suggestion is treated with extreme narrowmindedness. Even usability
suggestions, which would help make the program more helpful and
attractive compared to competitors, seem to trig the standard attitude
"My program is correct. The user fails to understand."

/mr


From igg.debus at t-online.de  Wed Oct 30 20:44:30 2013
From: igg.debus at t-online.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:44:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBVOy+qf_RbTvALzVz5149TA6zYc9LKG55+yjS7gqdGygw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <526fdf3a.0314b40a.3264.6b66@mx.google.com>
	<CACZGMxKZamoOO2qO43wAmqv_oWszq-eA+asXWguP=VncGBsq4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<A431F82A-134A-4F47-83DE-C41ABA137CCA@electricdruid.net>
	<CAP92RBVOy+qf_RbTvALzVz5149TA6zYc9LKG55+yjS7gqdGygw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <987776D5-9C35-4718-9728-D2EF986DD0EC@t-online.de>


Am 30.10.2013 um 20:22 schrieb Mattias Rickardsson:

> On 30 October 2013 01:10, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>> LTspice [...]
>> It's not the world's most helpful software.
> 
> Sadly chances are small that it will get any better in that respect.

Anyone here tried Tina-TI?
<http://www.ti.com/tool/tina-ti>

I played around with it a few months ago. The user interface looked much nicer than LTSpice's to me. The above website states the following:

(start quote)
Macros do not have to be from TI - you can import anyone's SPICE model now!
...
TINA-TI now allows WAV files to be used as stimulus (signal sources). You can play calculated waveforms on PC's multimedia system, and export calculated waveforms as a *.wav file.
(end quote)

I must have a look at it again...
It's Windows-only, but so is LTSpice.

Ingo

From juzowen at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 21:41:54 2013
From: juzowen at gmail.com (Justin Owen)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sdiy] LTspice - exponential voltage curve
Message-ID: <52716f12.8852b40a.52e9.ffffd257@mx.google.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Ingo Debus [igg.debus at t-online.de]

> Anyone here tried Tina-TI?
<http://www.ti.com/tool/tina-ti>

> It's Windows-only, but so is LTSpice.

There is now a native Mac version of LTspice.

I spent about 15 minutes with it before going back to WinXP - the interface changes were not helpful IMHO. 

J




From czvekan at gmail.com  Thu Oct 31 14:10:15 2013
From: czvekan at gmail.com (Csaba Zvekan)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:10:15 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] MKS 70 display out
Message-ID: <F3ED324A-5968-41FF-9472-639C3A84B061@gmail.com>

Hi guys

My Roland MKS 70's display is all dark and out. Most likely I read that it's the coil that need replacement. Do we have any sources or other solutions like a DIY LCD version ? I've seen some projects on YouTube.
All the help greatly appreciated .

Csaba 

Sent from Csaba's iPhone

From don at till.com  Thu Oct 31 19:02:19 2013
From: don at till.com (Donald Tillman)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 11:02:19 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
Message-ID: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>

Folks,

Please enjoy an article I just wrote about some strange and beautiful aspects of Square Waves:

    Square Wave Variations
    http://www.till.com/articles/squares/index.html

(This presentation relies heavily on the MATHML feature of modern browsers. I'm interested in hearing of any cases where it doesn't work correctly.)

  -- Don

--
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com






From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Oct 31 20:23:55 2013
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:23:55 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
In-Reply-To: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
References: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
Message-ID: <EF518FC7902744EFAF9CD49FC8032995@galvanox01>

Nice one, Don!  Interesting and informative, as usual. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl 
> [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at dropmix.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of 
> Donald Tillman
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:02 AM
> To: synthdiy diy
> Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
> 
> Folks,
> 
> Please enjoy an article I just wrote about some strange and 
> beautiful aspects of Square Waves:
> 
>     Square Wave Variations
>     http://www.till.com/articles/squares/index.html
> 
> (This presentation relies heavily on the MATHML feature of 
> modern browsers. I'm interested in hearing of any cases where 
> it doesn't work correctly.)
> 
>   -- Don
> 
> --
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don at till.com
> http://www.till.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From subjectivity at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 31 20:24:07 2013
From: subjectivity at hotmail.com (Dan Snazelle)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:24:07 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
In-Reply-To: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
References: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
Message-ID: <BAY404-EAS1917ED59A86C1CEC35CF35CC80B0@phx.gbl>

thanks so much for writing this!!!


looks sharp too

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 31, 2013, at 2:04 PM, "Donald Tillman" <don at till.com> wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> Please enjoy an article I just wrote about some strange and beautiful aspects of Square Waves:
> 
>    Square Wave Variations
>    http://www.till.com/articles/squares/index.html
> 
> (This presentation relies heavily on the MATHML feature of modern browsers. I'm interested in hearing of any cases where it doesn't work correctly.)
> 
>  -- Don
> 
> --
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don at till.com
> http://www.till.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From phil.macphail at liivatera.com  Thu Oct 31 20:26:33 2013
From: phil.macphail at liivatera.com (Phil Macphail)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:26:33 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] JP8 Gate circuit issue
In-Reply-To: <9ADD0066-28FB-4990-80F3-59541018BA91@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CE98895D.12A28%phil.macphail@liivatera.com>

I think you're right Tom, but a totem-pole output can still drive the
circuit if you leave the resistor in-circuit.

Phil.

On 31/10/2013 23:15, "Tom Wiltshire" <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:

>My guess is that it was intended to be driven by an open-collector
>output. E.g. by another transistor that looks much like the one you've
>got. That'd explain why there's R127, a pull-up, and it'd also explain
>why the circuit is inverting, since the open-collector output would be
>high when not switched on with just the pull-up attached.
>
>To modify it for a 0-5V input, just take R127 out. If it doesn't switch
>on properly, reduce R128.
>
>HTH,
>Tom
>
>On 31 Oct 2013, at 19:31, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hey all, I'm trying to get this gate circuit from the JP8 working. As
>>far as I can tell you should apply 5v logic signal to the base of the
>>transistor and it should output 15v positive gate. I can't get any
>>change from it. I'm using correct resistor values, and a 2N3904 for the
>>NPN. Any ideas?
>> 
>> http://flic.kr/p/h9o13k 		 	   		
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
>http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy




From jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk  Thu Oct 31 20:31:14 2013
From: jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk (Jack Jackson)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:31:14 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] JP8 Gate circuit issue
Message-ID: <DUB123-W7AEF5F7805B97BF1B28D5970B0@phx.gbl>

Hey all, I'm trying to get this gate circuit from the JP8 working. As far as I can tell you should apply 5v logic signal to the base of the transistor and it should output 15v positive gate. I can't get any change from it. I'm using correct resistor values, and a 2N3904 for the NPN. Any ideas?

http://flic.kr/p/h9o13k 		 	   		  

From phil.macphail at liivatera.com  Thu Oct 31 20:55:12 2013
From: phil.macphail at liivatera.com (Phil Macphail)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:55:12 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] JP8 Gate circuit issue
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W7AEF5F7805B97BF1B28D5970B0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W7AEF5F7805B97BF1B28D5970B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <08D602C2-3224-43BB-A11E-B88A978EF5BE@liivatera.com>



> On 31 Oct 2013, at 21:31, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Hey all, I'm trying to get this gate circuit from the JP8 working. As far as I can tell you should apply 5v logic signal to the base of the transistor and it should output 15v positive gate. I can't get any change from it. I'm using correct resistor values, and a 2N3904 for the NPN. Any ideas?
> 
> http://flic.kr/p/h9o13k                 

Can you drive the input with a switch (0 & 5volts), and measure the output with a multimeter? 
It's stating the obvious but you realise that the circuit is an inverter, so for a 15volt output pulse you need an active-low input pulse?
>        
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


From tom at electricdruid.net  Thu Oct 31 21:15:14 2013
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 20:15:14 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] JP8 Gate circuit issue
In-Reply-To: <DUB123-W7AEF5F7805B97BF1B28D5970B0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB123-W7AEF5F7805B97BF1B28D5970B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9ADD0066-28FB-4990-80F3-59541018BA91@electricdruid.net>

My guess is that it was intended to be driven by an open-collector output. E.g. by another transistor that looks much like the one you've got. That'd explain why there's R127, a pull-up, and it'd also explain why the circuit is inverting, since the open-collector output would be high when not switched on with just the pull-up attached.

To modify it for a 0-5V input, just take R127 out. If it doesn't switch on properly, reduce R128.

HTH,
Tom

On 31 Oct 2013, at 19:31, Jack Jackson <jackdamery at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Hey all, I'm trying to get this gate circuit from the JP8 working. As far as I can tell you should apply 5v logic signal to the base of the transistor and it should output 15v positive gate. I can't get any change from it. I'm using correct resistor values, and a 2N3904 for the NPN. Any ideas?
> 
> http://flic.kr/p/h9o13k 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy



From quicksilvercarrier at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Oct 31 21:39:55 2013
From: quicksilvercarrier at yahoo.co.uk (quicksilvercarrier)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 20:39:55 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
In-Reply-To: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
References: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
Message-ID: <5272C01B.40608@yahoo.co.uk>

On 31/10/13 18:02, Donald Tillman wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Please enjoy an article I just wrote about some strange and beautiful aspects of Square Waves:
>
>      Square Wave Variations
>      http://www.till.com/articles/squares/index.html
>
> (This presentation relies heavily on the MATHML feature of modern browsers. I'm interested in hearing of any cases where it doesn't work correctly.)
>
Very interesting, it would be useful to have some sound files as well. 
It works fine under Firefox on Ubuntu.

Graheme


From obl64 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Oct 31 21:57:34 2013
From: obl64 at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:57:34 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
In-Reply-To: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
References: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
Message-ID: <5272C43E.4010206@ix.netcom.com>

> Folks,
>
> Please enjoy an article I just wrote about some strange and beautiful aspects of Square Waves:
>
>      Square Wave Variations
>      http://www.till.com/articles/squares/index.html
>
> (This presentation relies heavily on the MATHML feature of modern browsers. I'm interested in hearing of any cases where it doesn't work correctly.)
>
>    -- Don
>
> --
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don at till.com
> http://www.till.com
>

Nice work, Don - The MATHML content works great on my Firefox/Windows 7 box.

Those would be a neat ideas for a waveform animator.

Sine waves are much easier to "screw" than square waves :)
- Oren


From igg.debus at t-online.de  Thu Oct 31 22:04:21 2013
From: igg.debus at t-online.de (Ingo Debus)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:04:21 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
In-Reply-To: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
References: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
Message-ID: <B8125043-3709-441E-B57A-DAEC7D16658C@t-online.de>


Am 31.10.2013 um 19:02 schrieb Donald Tillman:

> Please enjoy an article I just wrote about some strange and beautiful aspects of Square Waves:
> 
>    Square Wave Variations
>    http://www.till.com/articles/squares/index.html

I enjoyed it indeed! Conclusions? The oscilloscope doesn't tell the whole story. Some waves might look very different but sound same, while other waves look very similar and sound different.
How about sound examples? Ok, these waves would all sound the same anyway, but many people would not believe that until they heard it.

However, I can't resist and do a little nitpicking. You write: "(omega) is the frequency in Radians". Omega is the angular velocity (the frequency times 2*pi), and is measured in Radians per second. The product omega*t is measured in Radians.

I still remember when I was in physics class, 16 years old, and couldn't get my head around angular velocity when there was just something oscillating and nothing was rotating at all...

Ingo

From don at till.com  Thu Oct 31 22:28:20 2013
From: don at till.com (Donald Tillman)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:28:20 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
In-Reply-To: <B8125043-3709-441E-B57A-DAEC7D16658C@t-online.de>
References: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
	<B8125043-3709-441E-B57A-DAEC7D16658C@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <11441E5B-54B0-4C20-B3FB-E780C4834E1B@till.com>

On Oct 31, 2013, at 2:04 PM, Ingo Debus <igg.debus at t-online.de> wrote:

> Am 31.10.2013 um 19:02 schrieb Donald Tillman:
> 
>>   Square Wave Variations
>>   http://www.till.com/articles/squares/index.html
> 
> I enjoyed it indeed! Conclusions? The oscilloscope doesn't tell the whole story. Some waves might look very different but sound same, while other waves look very similar and sound different.

Exactly.  And to a much greater degree than one would expect.


> How about sound examples? Ok, these waves would all sound the same anyway, but many people would not believe that until they heard it.

They really would sound very much the same.  Any differences would be due to quirks and inaccuracies in how they are generated, how they are processed, how they are reproduced, and only then, the listener.

Of course it's entirely possible that some of these may set off mp3 encoding in a bad way.  :-)


> However, I can't resist and do a little nitpicking. You write: "(omega) is the frequency in Radians". Omega is the angular velocity (the frequency times 2*pi), and is measured in Radians per second.

Ah, good catch.  Thanks; I'll fix that.

  -- Don

--
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don at till.com
http://www.till.com






From mr at analogue.org  Thu Oct 31 23:12:32 2013
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 23:12:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Screwing with Square Waves
In-Reply-To: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
References: <EAAAE101-D6B4-4B82-AD4A-316B3A2558A6@till.com>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBW-=+E6fdvEerLUHg=0g8SeG=Q5xLVANxDcDGBzDPDk3g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, enjoyable and very well written! :-)

So with the different phase relationships between the harmonics in the
examples you got either discontinuous waveforms (the square wave et
al.) or infinite spikes (the Hilbert wave et al.). Both of these are
practically impossible to realize electrically, so I'm wondering:
Is there any way of shifting the phases of the harmonics in a square
or sawtooth wave so that the resulting waveform has neither
discontinuities nor infinite spikes?

(My spontaneous guess is "no"... since I get the feeling that these
discontinuities in the theoretically perfect saw/square waves are, in
a way, a sign of some kind of "infinite energy" which cannot be
represented using only continuous well-behaving waveforms. But still
looking for an example of the opposite - I'd love to be wrong!) :-)

/mr


On 31 October 2013 19:02, Donald Tillman <don at till.com> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Please enjoy an article I just wrote about some strange and beautiful aspects of Square Waves:
>
>     Square Wave Variations
>     http://www.till.com/articles/squares/index.html
>
> (This presentation relies heavily on the MATHML feature of modern browsers. I'm interested in hearing of any cases where it doesn't work correctly.)
>
>   -- Don
>
> --
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don at till.com
> http://www.till.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy


