From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan  1 00:17:58 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 00:17:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--mxC2yATt9+jgzqtkRotkq_2NFDj_3Np8P0hKV9EofbA@mail.gmail.com>

Poor or not, that's what his OBX was using.

As for my question, I'm more interested in the non-linearities of the
transistors in question, and whether there's some uniqueness to that.

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:13 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> ?  When I compared the '06 against the '05 specs in my Fairchild databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE range than the '06.  Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the voicecard clone now sounded the same.  The 2N3906 caused the SVF cutoff scaling to change because the higher HFE range resulted a steeper current/volt response, thus it was putting out higher current to iABC for the cutoff control voltage.   That's why the filter sounded different.
>
>
>
> Isn?t that more an indication of a poor design ?  If the current/volt response is critical then it should have been reduced with an emitter resistor.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy
> Sent: 31 December 2021 18:47
> To: David G Dixon
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
>
>
>
> Designers have the freedom to use their favored transistors.
>
>
>
> For substitution in existing devices, some circuits are sensitive to transistor selection.
>
>
>
> In vintage synths, the voltage to current converter for the iABC input of the OTA based SVF is one of them.  Scott Rider was designing an OBX voicecard clone and when it was installed in my OBX the filter sounded different.  We thought it was the 13700 in place of the 3080 but study of the databook spec showed the control law was the same (the 13700 was configured the same as the 3080).  Scott substituted the 2N3906 in place of the 2N3905 on the original, so that was my next suspicion.  When I compared the '06 against the '05 specs in my Fairchild databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE range than the '06.  Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the voicecard clone now sounded the same.  The 2N3906 caused the SVF cutoff scaling to change because the higher HFE range resulted a steeper current/volt response, thus it was putting out higher current to iABC for the cutoff control voltage.   That's why the filter sounded different.
>
>
>
> Other crucial parameters are max iC, min vCE, etc.  You need to know the limits of your circuit, no single transistor substitutes in every circuit.  There are some VCA designs out there that rely on high beta PNP transistors, which are not easy to acquire.
>
>
>
> MC
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:56 PM David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Same.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Tom
> Wiltshire
> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2021 2:55 PM
> To: cheater cheater
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
>
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>
> I don't.
>
> I'm a lame-arse about stuff like that. I use 2N3904 and 2N3906 for basically
> everything unless there's some absolutely fundamental reason why not. It's
> amazing what you can get away with. If you were *really* concerned you could
> match them, but to be honest if you grab a few from the same bag you
> probably won't notice.
>
> Previously I used to use BC547/557 the same way. I don't even remember why I
> swapped over. It might have been the pinout rather than anything more
> important.
>
> > On 30 Dec 2021, at 18:18, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > I was wondering how you pick out transistors (as well as diodes) for
> > synth circuits like filters. For example moog filter, 303 filter, etc.
> > Do you look for anything in specific? I'm talking about a situation
> > where you don't want to use the exact part in the schematic, but want
> > to play around with parts and see what comes out of it.
> >
> > Best regards
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From synthdiy at adambaby.com  Sat Jan  1 01:09:22 2022
From: synthdiy at adambaby.com (Adam Inglis (synthDIY))
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 10:09:22 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--mxC2yATt9+jgzqtkRotkq_2NFDj_3Np8P0hKV9EofbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--mxC2yATt9+jgzqtkRotkq_2NFDj_3Np8P0hKV9EofbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B0B4425-355C-46E6-826E-03EE5AF8C5B9@adambaby.com>



> On 1 Jan 2022, at 09:17, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Poor or not, that's what his OBX was using.
> 
> As for my question, I'm more interested in the non-linearities of the
> transistors in question, and whether there's some uniqueness to that.


But hasn?t that question been answered?
As Mike and others have pointed out, if the ?uniqueness? is affecting the circuit performance, then it?s the design of the circuit around it, and not the transistor itself, that needs attention.

A





> 
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:13 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?  When I compared the '06 against the '05 specs in my Fairchild databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE range than the '06.  Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the voicecard clone now sounded the same.  The 2N3906 caused the SVF cutoff scaling to change because the higher HFE range resulted a steeper current/volt response, thus it was putting out higher current to iABC for the cutoff control voltage.   That's why the filter sounded different.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Isn?t that more an indication of a poor design ?  If the current/volt response is critical then it should have been reduced with an emitter resistor.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 31 December 2021 18:47
>> To: David G Dixon
>> Cc: synth-diy
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Designers have the freedom to use their favored transistors.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> For substitution in existing devices, some circuits are sensitive to transistor selection.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In vintage synths, the voltage to current converter for the iABC input of the OTA based SVF is one of them.  Scott Rider was designing an OBX voicecard clone and when it was installed in my OBX the filter sounded different.  We thought it was the 13700 in place of the 3080 but study of the databook spec showed the control law was the same (the 13700 was configured the same as the 3080).  Scott substituted the 2N3906 in place of the 2N3905 on the original, so that was my next suspicion.  When I compared the '06 against the '05 specs in my Fairchild databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE range than the '06.  Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the voicecard clone now sounded the same.  The 2N3906 caused the SVF cutoff scaling to change because the higher HFE range resulted a steeper current/volt response, thus it was putting out higher current to iABC for the cutoff control voltage.   That's why the filter sounded different.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Other crucial parameters are max iC, min vCE, etc.  You need to know the limits of your circuit, no single transistor substitutes in every circuit.  There are some VCA designs out there that rely on high beta PNP transistors, which are not easy to acquire.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> MC
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:56 PM David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Same.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Tom
>> Wiltshire
>> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2021 2:55 PM
>> To: cheater cheater
>> Cc: synth-diy
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
>> 
>> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>> 
>> I don't.
>> 
>> I'm a lame-arse about stuff like that. I use 2N3904 and 2N3906 for basically
>> everything unless there's some absolutely fundamental reason why not. It's
>> amazing what you can get away with. If you were *really* concerned you could
>> match them, but to be honest if you grab a few from the same bag you
>> probably won't notice.
>> 
>> Previously I used to use BC547/557 the same way. I don't even remember why I
>> swapped over. It might have been the pinout rather than anything more
>> important.
>> 
>>> On 30 Dec 2021, at 18:18, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> I was wondering how you pick out transistors (as well as diodes) for
>>> synth circuits like filters. For example moog filter, 303 filter, etc.
>>> Do you look for anything in specific? I'm talking about a situation
>>> where you don't want to use the exact part in the schematic, but want
>>> to play around with parts and see what comes out of it.
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Sat Jan  1 04:09:47 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 22:09:47 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>

No it's an indication of design convention.  If you study the circuits of
legacy Oberheims, almost all of the PNPs are '05 - that was their
convention.  I don't remember any '06 used.

MC

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 4:09 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> ?  When I compared the '06 against the '05 specs in my Fairchild
> databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE range than the '06.  Sure
> enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the voicecard clone now sounded the
> same.  The 2N3906 caused the SVF cutoff scaling to change because the
> higher HFE range resulted a steeper current/volt response, thus it was
> putting out higher current to iABC for the cutoff control voltage.   That's
> why the filter sounded different.
>
>
>
> Isn?t that more an indication of a poor design ?  If the current/volt
> response is critical then it should have been reduced with an emitter
> resistor.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael
> E Caloroso via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* 31 December 2021 18:47
> *To:* David G Dixon
> *Cc:* synth-diy
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
>
>
>
> Designers have the freedom to use their favored transistors.
>
>
>
> For substitution in existing devices, some circuits are sensitive to
> transistor selection.
>
>
>
> In vintage synths, the voltage to current converter for the iABC input of
> the OTA based SVF is one of them.  Scott Rider was designing an OBX
> voicecard clone and when it was installed in my OBX the filter sounded
> different.  We thought it was the 13700 in place of the 3080 but study of
> the databook spec showed the control law was the same (the 13700 was
> configured the same as the 3080).  Scott substituted the 2N3906 in place of
> the 2N3905 on the original, so that was my next suspicion.  When I compared
> the '06 against the '05 specs in my Fairchild databook, I found that the
> '05 had a lower HFE range than the '06.  Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was
> put in the voicecard clone now sounded the same.  The 2N3906 caused the SVF
> cutoff scaling to change because the higher HFE range resulted a
> steeper current/volt response, thus it was putting out higher current to
> iABC for the cutoff control voltage.   That's why the filter sounded
> different.
>
>
>
> Other crucial parameters are max iC, min vCE, etc.  You need to know the
> limits of your circuit, no single transistor substitutes in every circuit.
> There are some VCA designs out there that rely on high beta PNP
> transistors, which are not easy to acquire.
>
>
>
> MC
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:56 PM David G Dixon via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Same.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Tom
> Wiltshire
> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2021 2:55 PM
> To: cheater cheater
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
>
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>
> I don't.
>
> I'm a lame-arse about stuff like that. I use 2N3904 and 2N3906 for
> basically
> everything unless there's some absolutely fundamental reason why not. It's
> amazing what you can get away with. If you were *really* concerned you
> could
> match them, but to be honest if you grab a few from the same bag you
> probably won't notice.
>
> Previously I used to use BC547/557 the same way. I don't even remember why
> I
> swapped over. It might have been the pinout rather than anything more
> important.
>
> > On 30 Dec 2021, at 18:18, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > I was wondering how you pick out transistors (as well as diodes) for
> > synth circuits like filters. For example moog filter, 303 filter, etc.
> > Do you look for anything in specific? I'm talking about a situation
> > where you don't want to use the exact part in the schematic, but want
> > to play around with parts and see what comes out of it.
> >
> > Best regards
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
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From usenet at teply.info  Sat Jan  1 11:04:30 2022
From: usenet at teply.info (usenet at teply.info)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:04:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>

It may be an indication of design convention. After all, reducing the 
number of different parts to stock is quite often a good idea.

But if a mere extension of spec'ed hFE range changes properties of the 
design, I'd consider this to be poorly designed. For real BJTs, the spcs 
for hFE are already pretty wide, and you never know which end you'll 
get. Sure enough, if there's a whole device family with minor 
differences in specs (for hFE it's often several overlapping ranges, or 
a few limit values for CE breakdown), it's likely they'll be sorted 
after production according to measured values, so it's not too likely 
you'll end up with parts right on the edge of specs. But still, any 
design that relies on hFE - which varies quite a lot in production, and 
is heavily dependent on bias and environmental conditions - i'd consider 
very poor design. In the end, even replacing one transistor with another 
one of identical part number, but with hFE sitting on the other end of 
spec range, would alter circuit properties as significantly as 
substituting a 2N3906 would do, or even more. The same goes for a 10?C 
change in ambient temperature. Emitter degeneration has been invented 
for a reason, and is pretty cheap to implement.

Bests,
Florian

On 01.01.22 04:09, Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy wrote:
> No it's an indication of design convention.? If you study the circuits 
> of legacy?Oberheims, almost all of the PNPs are '05 - that was their 
> convention.? I don't remember any '06 used.
> 
> MC
> 
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 4:09 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com 
> <mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
> 
>     __?__When I compared the '06 against the '05 specs in my Fairchild
>     databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE range than the '06. 
>     Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the voicecard clone now
>     sounded the same.? The 2N3906 caused the SVF cutoff scaling to
>     change because the higher HFE range resulted a steeper?current/volt
>     response, thus it was putting out higher current to iABC for the
>     cutoff control voltage. ? That's why the filter sounded different.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Isn?t that more an indication of a poor design ?? If the
>     current/volt response is critical then it should have been reduced
>     with an emitter resistor. ____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org
>     <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] *On Behalf Of *Michael E
>     Caloroso via Synth-diy
>     *Sent:* 31 December 2021 18:47
>     *To:* David G Dixon
>     *Cc:* synth-diy
>     *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Designers have the freedom to use their favored transistors.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     For substitution in existing?devices, some circuits are sensitive to
>     transistor selection. ____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     In vintage synths, the voltage to current converter for the iABC
>     input of the OTA based SVF is one of them.? Scott Rider was
>     designing an OBX voicecard?clone and when it was installed in my OBX
>     the filter sounded different.? We thought it was the 13700 in place
>     of the 3080 but study of the databook?spec showed the control law
>     was?the same (the 13700 was configured the same as the 3080).? Scott
>     substituted the 2N3906 in place of the 2N3905 on the original,?so
>     that was my next suspicion. When I compared the '06 against the '05
>     specs in my Fairchild databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE
>     range than the '06.? Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the
>     voicecard clone now sounded the same.? The 2N3906 caused the SVF
>     cutoff scaling to change because the higher HFE range resulted a
>     steeper?current/volt response, thus it was putting out higher
>     current to iABC for the cutoff control voltage. ? That's why the
>     filter sounded different.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Other crucial parameters are max iC, min vCE, etc.? You need to know
>     the limits of your circuit, no single transistor substitutes in
>     every circuit.? There are some VCA designs out there that rely on
>     high beta PNP transistors, which are not easy to acquire.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     MC____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:56 PM David G Dixon via Synth-diy
>     <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:____
> 
>         Same.
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org
>         <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Tom
>         Wiltshire
>         Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2021 2:55 PM
>         To: cheater cheater
>         Cc: synth-diy
>         Subject: Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
> 
>         [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
> 
>         I don't.
> 
>         I'm a lame-arse about stuff like that. I use 2N3904 and 2N3906
>         for basically
>         everything unless there's some absolutely fundamental reason why
>         not. It's
>         amazing what you can get away with. If you were *really*
>         concerned you could
>         match them, but to be honest if you grab a few from the same bag you
>         probably won't notice.
> 
>         Previously I used to use BC547/557 the same way. I don't even
>         remember why I
>         swapped over. It might have been the pinout rather than anything
>         more
>         important.
> 
>          > On 30 Dec 2021, at 18:18, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
>         <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>          >
>          > Hi all,
>          > I was wondering how you pick out transistors (as well as
>         diodes) for
>          > synth circuits like filters. For example moog filter, 303
>         filter, etc.
>          > Do you look for anything in specific? I'm talking about a
>         situation
>          > where you don't want to use the exact part in the schematic,
>         but want
>          > to play around with parts and see what comes out of it.
>          >
>          > Best regards
>          > _______________________________________________
>          > Synth-diy mailing list
>          > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>          > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>         <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>          > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>         <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> 
> 
>         _______________________________________________
>         Synth-diy mailing list
>         Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>         http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>         <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>         Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>         <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> 
>         _______________________________________________
>         Synth-diy mailing list
>         Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>         http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>         <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>         Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>         <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>____
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From spridley1 at gmail.com  Sat Jan  1 13:30:47 2022
From: spridley1 at gmail.com (S Ridley)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 12:30:47 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
Message-ID: <CAPgGCk+5aiX3aNbSR=JiHZaW-5ft-c0yT6OtJgxE0yEZQ_4u4w@mail.gmail.com>

Component choice was often dictated by what was available cheapest, not
what was best.

Components prices particularly pre the mid 1980s were proportionately much
higher than they are now.

Some respected synth manufacturers used surplus components back then.

Steve


<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 at 10:07, usenet at teply.info <usenet at teply.info> wrote:

> It may be an indication of design convention. After all, reducing the
> number of different parts to stock is quite often a good idea.
>
> But if a mere extension of spec'ed hFE range changes properties of the
> design, I'd consider this to be poorly designed. For real BJTs, the spcs
> for hFE are already pretty wide, and you never know which end you'll
> get. Sure enough, if there's a whole device family with minor
> differences in specs (for hFE it's often several overlapping ranges, or
> a few limit values for CE breakdown), it's likely they'll be sorted
> after production according to measured values, so it's not too likely
> you'll end up with parts right on the edge of specs. But still, any
> design that relies on hFE - which varies quite a lot in production, and
> is heavily dependent on bias and environmental conditions - i'd consider
> very poor design. In the end, even replacing one transistor with another
> one of identical part number, but with hFE sitting on the other end of
> spec range, would alter circuit properties as significantly as
> substituting a 2N3906 would do, or even more. The same goes for a 10?C
> change in ambient temperature. Emitter degeneration has been invented
> for a reason, and is pretty cheap to implement.
>
> Bests,
> Florian
>
> On 01.01.22 04:09, Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy wrote:
> > No it's an indication of design convention.  If you study the circuits
> > of legacy Oberheims, almost all of the PNPs are '05 - that was their
> > convention.  I don't remember any '06 used.
> >
> > MC
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 4:09 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com
> > <mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     __?__When I compared the '06 against the '05 specs in my Fairchild
> >     databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE range than the '06.
> >     Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the voicecard clone now
> >     sounded the same.  The 2N3906 caused the SVF cutoff scaling to
> >     change because the higher HFE range resulted a steeper current/volt
> >     response, thus it was putting out higher current to iABC for the
> >     cutoff control voltage.   That's why the filter sounded
> different.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Isn?t that more an indication of a poor design ?  If the
> >     current/volt response is critical then it should have been reduced
> >     with an emitter resistor. ____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org
> >     <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] *On Behalf Of *Michael E
> >     Caloroso via Synth-diy
> >     *Sent:* 31 December 2021 18:47
> >     *To:* David G Dixon
> >     *Cc:* synth-diy
> >     *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Designers have the freedom to use their favored transistors.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     For substitution in existing devices, some circuits are sensitive to
> >     transistor selection. ____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     In vintage synths, the voltage to current converter for the iABC
> >     input of the OTA based SVF is one of them.  Scott Rider was
> >     designing an OBX voicecard clone and when it was installed in my OBX
> >     the filter sounded different.  We thought it was the 13700 in place
> >     of the 3080 but study of the databook spec showed the control law
> >     was the same (the 13700 was configured the same as the 3080).  Scott
> >     substituted the 2N3906 in place of the 2N3905 on the original, so
> >     that was my next suspicion. When I compared the '06 against the '05
> >     specs in my Fairchild databook, I found that the '05 had a lower HFE
> >     range than the '06.  Sure enough, when the 2N3905 was put in the
> >     voicecard clone now sounded the same.  The 2N3906 caused the SVF
> >     cutoff scaling to change because the higher HFE range resulted a
> >     steeper current/volt response, thus it was putting out higher
> >     current to iABC for the cutoff control voltage.   That's why the
> >     filter sounded different.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Other crucial parameters are max iC, min vCE, etc.  You need to know
> >     the limits of your circuit, no single transistor substitutes in
> >     every circuit.  There are some VCA designs out there that rely on
> >     high beta PNP transistors, which are not easy to acquire.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     MC____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:56 PM David G Dixon via Synth-diy
> >     <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
> wrote:____
> >
> >         Same.
> >
> >         -----Original Message-----
> >         From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org
> >         <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Tom
> >         Wiltshire
> >         Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2021 2:55 PM
> >         To: cheater cheater
> >         Cc: synth-diy
> >         Subject: Re: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
> >
> >         [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
> >
> >         I don't.
> >
> >         I'm a lame-arse about stuff like that. I use 2N3904 and 2N3906
> >         for basically
> >         everything unless there's some absolutely fundamental reason why
> >         not. It's
> >         amazing what you can get away with. If you were *really*
> >         concerned you could
> >         match them, but to be honest if you grab a few from the same bag
> you
> >         probably won't notice.
> >
> >         Previously I used to use BC547/557 the same way. I don't even
> >         remember why I
> >         swapped over. It might have been the pinout rather than anything
> >         more
> >         important.
> >
> >          > On 30 Dec 2021, at 18:18, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> >         <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
> wrote:
> >          >
> >          > Hi all,
> >          > I was wondering how you pick out transistors (as well as
> >         diodes) for
> >          > synth circuits like filters. For example moog filter, 303
> >         filter, etc.
> >          > Do you look for anything in specific? I'm talking about a
> >         situation
> >          > where you don't want to use the exact part in the schematic,
> >         but want
> >          > to play around with parts and see what comes out of it.
> >          >
> >          > Best regards
> >          > _______________________________________________
> >          > Synth-diy mailing list
> >          > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> >          > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >         <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> >          > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >         <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> >
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         Synth-diy mailing list
> >         Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> >         http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >         <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> >         Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >         <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         Synth-diy mailing list
> >         Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> >         http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >         <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> >         Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >         <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>____
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan  1 14:24:43 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 14:24:43 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <4B0B4425-355C-46E6-826E-03EE5AF8C5B9@adambaby.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--mxC2yATt9+jgzqtkRotkq_2NFDj_3Np8P0hKV9EofbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4B0B4425-355C-46E6-826E-03EE5AF8C5B9@adambaby.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9W65hPrsy0+gM7cXpqViGhrjoUa8BDD7sCAZ+dbdEPXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 1:09 AM Adam Inglis (synthDIY)
<synthdiy at adambaby.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 1 Jan 2022, at 09:17, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Poor or not, that's what his OBX was using.
> >
> > As for my question, I'm more interested in the non-linearities of the
> > transistors in question, and whether there's some uniqueness to that.

I just don't believe that topology can always let you fully escape the
physical properties of a part.

On the other hand I'm sure there are situations where it can, and I
wonder if that's the reason why all modern synths sound exactly the
same type of bland.


From electrocontinuo at gmail.com  Sat Jan  1 15:45:09 2022
From: electrocontinuo at gmail.com (Peter Pearson)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 09:45:09 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9W65hPrsy0+gM7cXpqViGhrjoUa8BDD7sCAZ+dbdEPXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--mxC2yATt9+jgzqtkRotkq_2NFDj_3Np8P0hKV9EofbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4B0B4425-355C-46E6-826E-03EE5AF8C5B9@adambaby.com>
 <CAGn5V-9W65hPrsy0+gM7cXpqViGhrjoUa8BDD7sCAZ+dbdEPXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+qbVc9jpUVQQ4xrK6inyg1LQ+1tw6m3mS-2xzG1MMqD2VA6Jg@mail.gmail.com>

C'mon, EVERYONE knows modern synths sound bad because SMD sounds worse than
through hole.

Anyway I would think that if part choice was going to matter, it would be
in the audio path and not the CV path, no?  This 2N3905 vs 2N3906
controlling the 3080s in an OBX thing seems to be more about how the
circuit tracks CV than how it would sound at the same cutoff/resonance.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 8:28 AM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 1:09 AM Adam Inglis (synthDIY)
> <synthdiy at adambaby.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 1 Jan 2022, at 09:17, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Poor or not, that's what his OBX was using.
> > >
> > > As for my question, I'm more interested in the non-linearities of the
> > > transistors in question, and whether there's some uniqueness to that.
>
> I just don't believe that topology can always let you fully escape the
> physical properties of a part.
>
> On the other hand I'm sure there are situations where it can, and I
> wonder if that's the reason why all modern synths sound exactly the
> same type of bland.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Sat Jan  1 16:02:26 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 10:02:26 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <CA+qbVc9jpUVQQ4xrK6inyg1LQ+1tw6m3mS-2xzG1MMqD2VA6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--mxC2yATt9+jgzqtkRotkq_2NFDj_3Np8P0hKV9EofbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4B0B4425-355C-46E6-826E-03EE5AF8C5B9@adambaby.com>
 <CAGn5V-9W65hPrsy0+gM7cXpqViGhrjoUa8BDD7sCAZ+dbdEPXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc9jpUVQQ4xrK6inyg1LQ+1tw6m3mS-2xzG1MMqD2VA6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UAAr680kseaaTBo=QZ3npspSEJJMnJR8ZK0scbpb+jwAQ@mail.gmail.com>

In a polyphonic synth using a homogenous patch, if the cutoff does not
match or track across voicecards then it has a direct impact on the audio
path.

CV sources can indeed affect the audio path.

MC

On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 9:49 AM Peter Pearson via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> C'mon, EVERYONE knows modern synths sound bad because SMD sounds worse
> than through hole.
>
> Anyway I would think that if part choice was going to matter, it would be
> in the audio path and not the CV path, no?  This 2N3905 vs 2N3906
> controlling the 3080s in an OBX thing seems to be more about how the
> circuit tracks CV than how it would sound at the same cutoff/resonance.
>
> On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 8:28 AM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 1:09 AM Adam Inglis (synthDIY)
>> <synthdiy at adambaby.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > On 1 Jan 2022, at 09:17, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
>> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Poor or not, that's what his OBX was using.
>> > >
>> > > As for my question, I'm more interested in the non-linearities of the
>> > > transistors in question, and whether there's some uniqueness to that.
>>
>> I just don't believe that topology can always let you fully escape the
>> physical properties of a part.
>>
>> On the other hand I'm sure there are situations where it can, and I
>> wonder if that's the reason why all modern synths sound exactly the
>> same type of bland.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Thu Jan  6 11:04:01 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:04:01 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
Message-ID: <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>

Dear list,

In the last months I?ve been fantasising about a new mono synth (for personal use, nothing commercial), that could provide classic sounds, but also something slightly more original (at least for me). I?ve been reading a lot about FM/PM, about formant synthesis and pulse-forming, and about windowed-sync. I?ve done experiments with combinations of these on my Nord Modular G2 (digital) and found them musically really satisfying!

So now I?m making small steps towards a first prototype of these ideas in analog. Originally, I planned to do a thru-zero triangle core oscillator, after I read older threads about how David Dixon and Bernie Hutchins implemented it, but felt the circuit complexity and potential impact on tuning stability was not really outweighing my limited use of FM/PM sounds. So, I decided to start looking for simpler ways to obtain some of the sounds characteristic of PM/FM, as well as the possibility to obtain sine-to-saw and sine-to-square waveshaping by means of self-modulation. Rob Hordijk made a nice implementation of this type of waveshaping in his OscHRM.

Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the oscillator. The most important benefit of this approach is that the whole PM stuff becomes separated from the oscillator core, just like a wave shaper, and would guarantee stable tuning, even in cases of self-modulation (from the output of the all-pass filter back to it?s frequency input). So I prototyped it in my Nord Modular, and it works rather well! It?s not identical to true FM/PM, but provides sounds with very similar characteristics and allows for forms of self-modulation as well! When I searched the internet and archives of this list, I found the idea was not really new, and others have at least written about it.

Then I moved to Spice modelling of an analog equivalent, and discovered something unexpected. Without modulation, the circuit operates at unity gain, preserving a sine wave of the same amplitude (10Vpp) as the input. However, depending on the modulation signal, excursions of up to 3 times this amplitude occur at the output. Going back to my Nord Modular, I realised the exact same thing is happening there, but the Nord?s headroom is sufficient to deal with it. So then I discovered that classic all-pass filter implementations do not generalise to time-varying applications?. 

It turns out that there are special implementations for time-varying all-pass filters in the digital domain: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3343262_Time-varying_generalizations_of_all-pass_filters. I have not been able to figure out if they exist (or can be designed along the same principles) in the analog domain. Does anyone have experience with this in analog? If not, I could consider designing for more headroom than I anticipated, or could try and soft-limit the output of the all-pass filter.

Any suggestions or insights are appreciated!

Rutger

ps. Happy healthy new year!




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan  6 12:45:49 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:45:49 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18ec96fc0dc14a2ba7b639b9a14f81b3@futurehorizons.com>


Hi Rutger

If I understand you correctly then I think an analogue domain implementation does exist but in radio receivers.   Not sure how applicable they are to audio frequencies as the required frequency range is probably much wider but might be worth a look.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy
Sent: 06 January 2022 10:04
To: SDIY List
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters

Dear list,

In the last months I?ve been fantasising about a new mono synth (for personal use, nothing commercial), that could provide classic sounds, but also something slightly more original (at least for me). I?ve been reading a lot about FM/PM, about formant synthesis and pulse-forming, and about windowed-sync. I?ve done experiments with combinations of these on my Nord Modular G2 (digital) and found them musically really satisfying!

So now I?m making small steps towards a first prototype of these ideas in analog. Originally, I planned to do a thru-zero triangle core oscillator, after I read older threads about how David Dixon and Bernie Hutchins implemented it, but felt the circuit complexity and potential impact on tuning stability was not really outweighing my limited use of FM/PM sounds. So, I decided to start looking for simpler ways to obtain some of the sounds characteristic of PM/FM, as well as the possibility to obtain sine-to-saw and sine-to-square waveshaping by means of self-modulation. Rob Hordijk made a nice implementation of this type of waveshaping in his OscHRM.

Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the oscillator. The most important benefit of this approach is that the whole PM stuff becomes separated from the oscillator core, just like a wave shaper, and would guarantee stable tuning, even in cases of self-modulation (from the output of the all-pass filter back to it?s frequency input). So I prototyped it in my Nord Modular, and it works rather well! It?s not identical to true FM/PM, but provides sounds with very similar characteristics and allows for forms of self-modulation as well! When I searched the internet and archives of this list, I found the idea was not really new, and others have at least written about it.

Then I moved to Spice modelling of an analog equivalent, and discovered something unexpected. Without modulation, the circuit operates at unity gain, preserving a sine wave of the same amplitude (10Vpp) as the input. However, depending on the modulation signal, excursions of up to 3 times this amplitude occur at the output. Going back to my Nord Modular, I realised the exact same thing is happening there, but the Nord?s headroom is sufficient to deal with it. So then I discovered that classic all-pass filter implementations do not generalise to time-varying applications?. 

It turns out that there are special implementations for time-varying all-pass filters in the digital domain: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3343262_Time-varying_generalizations_of_all-pass_filters. I have not been able to figure out if they exist (or can be designed along the same principles) in the analog domain. Does anyone have experience with this in analog? If not, I could consider designing for more headroom than I anticipated, or could try and soft-limit the output of the all-pass filter.

Any suggestions or insights are appreciated!

Rutger

ps. Happy healthy new year!


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Thu Jan  6 13:08:26 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:08:26 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+sD5FXr+12ULjFLjrEQ+PT76gPeAiHDDEZa=5_FC-npQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rutger,

> Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the oscillator.

See page 22:
https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2130datasheet.pdf

Implementation here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-2UQ6zkSU

That was modulated at a slow (manual) rate, so no idea what it does at
faster rates.  Interesting question though....

> ps. Happy healthy new year!

Happy new year to you too!

Cheers,
Neil


From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Thu Jan  6 13:35:48 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:35:48 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <18ec96fc0dc14a2ba7b639b9a14f81b3@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <18ec96fc0dc14a2ba7b639b9a14f81b3@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2Txe0BeQ1XqjyXOaJveb_SB8bRrkSpsBo5n1j-B8HvzEsqPg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Mike!

Any specific design you could refer to?

R.

Op do 6 jan. 2022 12:45 schreef Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>:

>
> Hi Rutger
>
> If I understand you correctly then I think an analogue domain
> implementation does exist but in radio receivers.   Not sure how applicable
> they are to audio frequencies as the required frequency range is probably
> much wider but might be worth a look.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy
> Sent: 06 January 2022 10:04
> To: SDIY List
> Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
>
> Dear list,
>
> In the last months I?ve been fantasising about a new mono synth (for
> personal use, nothing commercial), that could provide classic sounds, but
> also something slightly more original (at least for me). I?ve been reading
> a lot about FM/PM, about formant synthesis and pulse-forming, and about
> windowed-sync. I?ve done experiments with combinations of these on my Nord
> Modular G2 (digital) and found them musically really satisfying!
>
> So now I?m making small steps towards a first prototype of these ideas in
> analog. Originally, I planned to do a thru-zero triangle core oscillator,
> after I read older threads about how David Dixon and Bernie Hutchins
> implemented it, but felt the circuit complexity and potential impact on
> tuning stability was not really outweighing my limited use of FM/PM sounds.
> So, I decided to start looking for simpler ways to obtain some of the
> sounds characteristic of PM/FM, as well as the possibility to obtain
> sine-to-saw and sine-to-square waveshaping by means of self-modulation. Rob
> Hordijk made a nice implementation of this type of waveshaping in his
> OscHRM.
>
> Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase
> shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an
> all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the
> oscillator. The most important benefit of this approach is that the whole
> PM stuff becomes separated from the oscillator core, just like a wave
> shaper, and would guarantee stable tuning, even in cases of self-modulation
> (from the output of the all-pass filter back to it?s frequency input). So I
> prototyped it in my Nord Modular, and it works rather well! It?s not
> identical to true FM/PM, but provides sounds with very similar
> characteristics and allows for forms of self-modulation as well! When I
> searched the internet and archives of this list, I found the idea was not
> really new, and others have at least written about it.
>
> Then I moved to Spice modelling of an analog equivalent, and discovered
> something unexpected. Without modulation, the circuit operates at unity
> gain, preserving a sine wave of the same amplitude (10Vpp) as the input.
> However, depending on the modulation signal, excursions of up to 3 times
> this amplitude occur at the output. Going back to my Nord Modular, I
> realised the exact same thing is happening there, but the Nord?s headroom
> is sufficient to deal with it. So then I discovered that classic all-pass
> filter implementations do not generalise to time-varying applications?.
>
> It turns out that there are special implementations for time-varying
> all-pass filters in the digital domain:
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3343262_Time-varying_generalizations_of_all-pass_filters.
> I have not been able to figure out if they exist (or can be designed along
> the same principles) in the analog domain. Does anyone have experience with
> this in analog? If not, I could consider designing for more headroom than I
> anticipated, or could try and soft-limit the output of the all-pass filter.
>
> Any suggestions or insights are appreciated!
>
> Rutger
>
> ps. Happy healthy new year!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan  6 13:40:57 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:40:57 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe0BeQ1XqjyXOaJveb_SB8bRrkSpsBo5n1j-B8HvzEsqPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <18ec96fc0dc14a2ba7b639b9a14f81b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAJ2Txe0BeQ1XqjyXOaJveb_SB8bRrkSpsBo5n1j-B8HvzEsqPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8e8af780fe1b48a6b528d6fe4267493b@futurehorizons.com>

Not really as I?m not an r.f. person.  But I think Neil?s suggestion looks like the audio equivalent anyway, as it says in the datasheet.


From: Rutger Vlek [mailto:rutgervlek at gmail.com]
Sent: 06 January 2022 12:36
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: SDIY List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters

Thanks Mike!

Any specific design you could refer to?

R.

Op do 6 jan. 2022 12:45 schreef Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>>:

Hi Rutger

If I understand you correctly then I think an analogue domain implementation does exist but in radio receivers.   Not sure how applicable they are to audio frequencies as the required frequency range is probably much wider but might be worth a look.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy
Sent: 06 January 2022 10:04
To: SDIY List
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters

Dear list,

In the last months I?ve been fantasising about a new mono synth (for personal use, nothing commercial), that could provide classic sounds, but also something slightly more original (at least for me). I?ve been reading a lot about FM/PM, about formant synthesis and pulse-forming, and about windowed-sync. I?ve done experiments with combinations of these on my Nord Modular G2 (digital) and found them musically really satisfying!

So now I?m making small steps towards a first prototype of these ideas in analog. Originally, I planned to do a thru-zero triangle core oscillator, after I read older threads about how David Dixon and Bernie Hutchins implemented it, but felt the circuit complexity and potential impact on tuning stability was not really outweighing my limited use of FM/PM sounds. So, I decided to start looking for simpler ways to obtain some of the sounds characteristic of PM/FM, as well as the possibility to obtain sine-to-saw and sine-to-square waveshaping by means of self-modulation. Rob Hordijk made a nice implementation of this type of waveshaping in his OscHRM.

Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the oscillator. The most important benefit of this approach is that the whole PM stuff becomes separated from the oscillator core, just like a wave shaper, and would guarantee stable tuning, even in cases of self-modulation (from the output of the all-pass filter back to it?s frequency input). So I prototyped it in my Nord Modular, and it works rather well! It?s not identical to true FM/PM, but provides sounds with very similar characteristics and allows for forms of self-modulation as well! When I searched the internet and archives of this list, I found the idea was not really new, and others have at least written about it.

Then I moved to Spice modelling of an analog equivalent, and discovered something unexpected. Without modulation, the circuit operates at unity gain, preserving a sine wave of the same amplitude (10Vpp) as the input. However, depending on the modulation signal, excursions of up to 3 times this amplitude occur at the output. Going back to my Nord Modular, I realised the exact same thing is happening there, but the Nord?s headroom is sufficient to deal with it. So then I discovered that classic all-pass filter implementations do not generalise to time-varying applications?.

It turns out that there are special implementations for time-varying all-pass filters in the digital domain: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3343262_Time-varying_generalizations_of_all-pass_filters. I have not been able to figure out if they exist (or can be designed along the same principles) in the analog domain. Does anyone have experience with this in analog? If not, I could consider designing for more headroom than I anticipated, or could try and soft-limit the output of the all-pass filter.

Any suggestions or insights are appreciated!

Rutger

ps. Happy healthy new year!


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
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From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Thu Jan  6 15:13:17 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 15:13:17 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMx+sD5FXr+12ULjFLjrEQ+PT76gPeAiHDDEZa=5_FC-npQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sD5FXr+12ULjFLjrEQ+PT76gPeAiHDDEZa=5_FC-npQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2Txe2Pw8Vx180ifo8AmBuVFqbyU26geRLmr1ozj9+HDMiR9g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Neil,

 Yes that schematic on page 22 describes very well what I'm doing, but with
an audio rate modulation signal added to the tracking cv of the all pass
filter. The problem occurs when input signal peaks and is added to twice
the output signal of the low pass filter when IT peaks. That can happen
when receiving a sudden change in the modulation CV.

Rutger

Op do 6 jan. 2022 13:08 schreef Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com>:

> Hi Rutger,
>
> > Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase
> shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an
> all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the
> oscillator.
>
> See page 22:
> https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2130datasheet.pdf
>
> Implementation here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-2UQ6zkSU
>
> That was modulated at a slow (manual) rate, so no idea what it does at
> faster rates.  Interesting question though....
>
> > ps. Happy healthy new year!
>
> Happy new year to you too!
>
> Cheers,
> Neil
>
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From ulfurh at gmail.com  Thu Jan  6 22:58:09 2022
From: ulfurh at gmail.com (ulfur hansson)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:58:09 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe2Pw8Vx180ifo8AmBuVFqbyU26geRLmr1ozj9+HDMiR9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sD5FXr+12ULjFLjrEQ+PT76gPeAiHDDEZa=5_FC-npQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe2Pw8Vx180ifo8AmBuVFqbyU26geRLmr1ozj9+HDMiR9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG9O7x3q-YKgHf1LGQJb+0Zx4zSqdZAQQ5Xh-N25eo1voseaHA@mail.gmail.com>

hey rutger!

i have had amazing results with openmusiclabs sinecore design. I've changed
it a lot for my own personal needs, but the basic circuit is all there and
presented in a very informative way :) recommend checking it out!!

very best,
-?lfur

fim., 6. jan. 2022 kl. 14:16 skrifa?i Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:

> Hi Neil,
>
>  Yes that schematic on page 22 describes very well what I'm doing, but
> with an audio rate modulation signal added to the tracking cv of the all
> pass filter. The problem occurs when input signal peaks and is added to
> twice the output signal of the low pass filter when IT peaks. That can
> happen when receiving a sudden change in the modulation CV.
>
> Rutger
>
> Op do 6 jan. 2022 13:08 schreef Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi Rutger,
>>
>> > Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase
>> shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an
>> all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the
>> oscillator.
>>
>> See page 22:
>> https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2130datasheet.pdf
>>
>> Implementation here:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-2UQ6zkSU
>>
>> That was modulated at a slow (manual) rate, so no idea what it does at
>> faster rates.  Interesting question though....
>>
>> > ps. Happy healthy new year!
>>
>> Happy new year to you too!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Neil
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


-- 
?
ulfurhansson.com
instagram.com/ulfur_
.??~ ?lfur - Arborescence on Spotify
<https://open.spotify.com/album/118CEJliIg47Jcr70y7Kww>
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan  6 23:48:59 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 23:48:59 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9GUqPcBkiJTYbBQV2M8TQR2=fQQBOo7ohFbnKpXuUpyA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rutger, welcome to the list.

At a glance that digital filter doesn't seem to be using any memory,
so you should be able to implement it in analog.

Regarding your allpass filter's peaks. Even without any time variance
all pass filters will create very steep peaks. Bear in mind the
amplitude of your input signal depends on eg the fundamental having a
null while higher order partials have their maximum. With an APF it's
easy to line up all those peaks together. You're probably confused
right now because a sinewave doesn't have higher order partials (let's
put noise and distortion to the side). When varying the frequency of a
filter, even on a sinewave, consider it this way. Instead of thinking
that you're somehow shortening or lengthening the filter, imagine that
the filter is not changing at all, and instead what you're doing is
you're making the whole world around it faster or slower. So this
means that the filter is at a constant frequency, but you change the
frequency of the input sinewave. At that point it is not a sinewave
any more, and it has a bunch of harmonics, especially if you're
varying the frequency of this sinewave in a cyclic way. Do you want
peaks? Because that's how you get peaks ;-) I wouldn't be worried too
much: add a bunch of headroom by using overspecced op amps, and be on
your merry way. I'd say 24dB of headroom is just fine. With a 30Vpp
signal that means 240Vpp! Nice! Maybe your next thread will be about
discrete op amps using JFETs or vacuum tubes. You can follow that
headroom up with a hard limiter of some sort.

Enjoy!

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 11:08 AM Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Dear list,
>
> In the last months I?ve been fantasising about a new mono synth (for personal use, nothing commercial), that could provide classic sounds, but also something slightly more original (at least for me). I?ve been reading a lot about FM/PM, about formant synthesis and pulse-forming, and about windowed-sync. I?ve done experiments with combinations of these on my Nord Modular G2 (digital) and found them musically really satisfying!
>
> So now I?m making small steps towards a first prototype of these ideas in analog. Originally, I planned to do a thru-zero triangle core oscillator, after I read older threads about how David Dixon and Bernie Hutchins implemented it, but felt the circuit complexity and potential impact on tuning stability was not really outweighing my limited use of FM/PM sounds. So, I decided to start looking for simpler ways to obtain some of the sounds characteristic of PM/FM, as well as the possibility to obtain sine-to-saw and sine-to-square waveshaping by means of self-modulation. Rob Hordijk made a nice implementation of this type of waveshaping in his OscHRM.
>
> Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the oscillator. The most important benefit of this approach is that the whole PM stuff becomes separated from the oscillator core, just like a wave shaper, and would guarantee stable tuning, even in cases of self-modulation (from the output of the all-pass filter back to it?s frequency input). So I prototyped it in my Nord Modular, and it works rather well! It?s not identical to true FM/PM, but provides sounds with very similar characteristics and allows for forms of self-modulation as well! When I searched the internet and archives of this list, I found the idea was not really new, and others have at least written about it.
>
> Then I moved to Spice modelling of an analog equivalent, and discovered something unexpected. Without modulation, the circuit operates at unity gain, preserving a sine wave of the same amplitude (10Vpp) as the input. However, depending on the modulation signal, excursions of up to 3 times this amplitude occur at the output. Going back to my Nord Modular, I realised the exact same thing is happening there, but the Nord?s headroom is sufficient to deal with it. So then I discovered that classic all-pass filter implementations do not generalise to time-varying applications?.
>
> It turns out that there are special implementations for time-varying all-pass filters in the digital domain: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3343262_Time-varying_generalizations_of_all-pass_filters. I have not been able to figure out if they exist (or can be designed along the same principles) in the analog domain. Does anyone have experience with this in analog? If not, I could consider designing for more headroom than I anticipated, or could try and soft-limit the output of the all-pass filter.
>
> Any suggestions or insights are appreciated!
>
> Rutger
>
> ps. Happy healthy new year!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Thu Jan  6 23:59:08 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:59:08 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <a40a36ee-ab13-e969-bc75-059d6c9680b3@ix.netcom.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a40a36ee-ab13-e969-bc75-059d6c9680b3@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5A0C1731-7A95-45A1-94C5-06DD08D031E6@gmail.com>

This is a very interesting thread. I'm reminded of a similar discussion we had years ago about how component specs had silently improved over the decades. In particular, someone tested a variety of LM3046s. As time went by Q1 and Q2 consistently became better matched. IIRC, chips of recent manufacture were better than the MIL specs on the datasheet.


> On Dec 30, 2021, at 6:08 PM, Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> MPSA42 (NPN) and MPSA92 (PNP) - high voltage 300V.


What, no MJE340 (300V NPN)? The MPSA42 is fine for an ??-13 bar-graph tube but can't handle the higher current of an ??-9...

Oh wait, this is SDIY not the Nixie tube group. Sorry.  8D


In all seriousness, what do you need 300V transistors for (especially PNP)? Driving a VFD or plasma display? Or perhaps something like this:

http://m.bareille.free.fr/vu-in13/vumeter_in13.htm


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor?

(The notorious thread hijacker)




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan  7 00:06:04 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 23:06:04 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <5A0C1731-7A95-45A1-94C5-06DD08D031E6@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a40a36ee-ab13-e969-bc75-059d6c9680b3@ix.netcom.com>
 <5A0C1731-7A95-45A1-94C5-06DD08D031E6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0174cf38a6a543daa0263ef939c59bcb@futurehorizons.com>




> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Terry Bowman via Synth-diy

> In all seriousness, what do you need 300V transistors for (especially PNP)? Driving a VFD or plasma display? Or perhaps something like this:


I've used MPSA42/92 by the bucketload in solar panel controllers, but never found a use for them in audio.



From ben at stuyts.nl  Fri Jan  7 00:12:52 2022
From: ben at stuyts.nl (Ben Stuyts)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 00:12:52 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9GUqPcBkiJTYbBQV2M8TQR2=fQQBOo7ohFbnKpXuUpyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9GUqPcBkiJTYbBQV2M8TQR2=fQQBOo7ohFbnKpXuUpyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B7C8D7CE-FE60-491B-954A-CB9490E1ADE4@stuyts.nl>



> On 6 Jan 2022, at 23:48, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Rutger, welcome to the list.

I think Rutger has been on this list for 15 years or so? ?

Ben




From obl64 at ix.netcom.com  Fri Jan  7 00:58:15 2022
From: obl64 at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:58:15 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Which transistors for synth circuits?
In-Reply-To: <5A0C1731-7A95-45A1-94C5-06DD08D031E6@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a40a36ee-ab13-e969-bc75-059d6c9680b3@ix.netcom.com>
 <5A0C1731-7A95-45A1-94C5-06DD08D031E6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <276bd471-8199-0175-988e-3a5c8b83a28c@ix.netcom.com>


On 1/6/22 4:59 PM, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy wrote:
> This is a very interesting thread. I'm reminded of a similar discussion we had years ago about how component specs had silently improved over the decades. In particular, someone tested a variety of LM3046s. As time went by Q1 and Q2 consistently became better matched. IIRC, chips of recent manufacture were better than the MIL specs on the datasheet.
>
>
>> On Dec 30, 2021, at 6:08 PM, Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy<synth-diy at synth-diy.org>  wrote:
>>
>> MPSA42 (NPN) and MPSA92 (PNP) - high voltage 300V.
>
> What, no MJE340 (300V NPN)? The MPSA42 is fine for an ??-13 bar-graph tube but can't handle the higher current of an ??-9...

Actually I do have MJE340 and MJE350 (its 300V PNP compliment) .

>
> Oh wait, this is SDIY not the Nixie tube group. Sorry.  8D
>
>
> In all seriousness, what do you need 300V transistors for (especially PNP)? Driving a VFD or plasma display?
I've used the 300V devices in pro audio power amplifiers that can easily 
have 200+ volts between the rails. Yes, Nixie tubes, too. Hmmnnnn, 
perhaps maybe a Dekatron step sequencer sometime ;)
>   Or perhaps something like this:
>
> http://m.bareille.free.fr/vu-in13/vumeter_in13.htm
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor?
>
> (The notorious thread hijacker)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Usemarketplace at synth-diy.org
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan  7 02:20:38 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 02:20:38 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <B7C8D7CE-FE60-491B-954A-CB9490E1ADE4@stuyts.nl>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9GUqPcBkiJTYbBQV2M8TQR2=fQQBOo7ohFbnKpXuUpyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B7C8D7CE-FE60-491B-954A-CB9490E1ADE4@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9hJvR61iRqo_4cpvcs5=3Q-uMamzAGqWvLPhN86bKoOw@mail.gmail.com>

Good, he's still welcome :)

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 12:12 AM Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 6 Jan 2022, at 23:48, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rutger, welcome to the list.
>
> I think Rutger has been on this list for 15 years or so? ?
>
> Ben
>



From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Fri Jan  7 12:26:28 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 12:26:28 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <B7C8D7CE-FE60-491B-954A-CB9490E1ADE4@stuyts.nl>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9GUqPcBkiJTYbBQV2M8TQR2=fQQBOo7ohFbnKpXuUpyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B7C8D7CE-FE60-491B-954A-CB9490E1ADE4@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <CAJ2Txe2Le8+a4uuPf_rh2TJX6JFOUzeoa2gfMZr2OdSuPj3q4g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks cheater, I feel young! Even though Ben is right, I traced back my
first message to this list, which was in 2004.

Op vr 7 jan. 2022 om 00:12 schreef Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl>:

>
>
> > On 6 Jan 2022, at 23:48, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rutger, welcome to the list.
>
> I think Rutger has been on this list for 15 years or so? ?
>
> Ben
>
>
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From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Fri Jan  7 12:37:20 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 12:37:20 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CAG9O7x3q-YKgHf1LGQJb+0Zx4zSqdZAQQ5Xh-N25eo1voseaHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sD5FXr+12ULjFLjrEQ+PT76gPeAiHDDEZa=5_FC-npQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe2Pw8Vx180ifo8AmBuVFqbyU26geRLmr1ozj9+HDMiR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG9O7x3q-YKgHf1LGQJb+0Zx4zSqdZAQQ5Xh-N25eo1voseaHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2Txe0LOhJqVOCMijJ_ZSZh=M5CQBUNhm4xo2Gc6ckOuA26OA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the suggestion Ulfur! Do I assume correctly that it comes down
to a mathematical equivalence of wave folding and phase modulation?

In reply to others: I see that my original question may not have been
phrased clearly enough. It's not about making the frequency of an all-pass
filter change in time, which I know how to do. The problem is when you
change the frequency at audio rate. The figure from the paper I referred to
in my original post describes the problem well. It shows how a rapid
modulation of the APF frequency (top graph) leads to a low-frequency
component in the output (middle graph), which could be avoided (bottom
graph). The analog APF I am using acts identical to the middle graph,
leading to (unnecessary?) headroom issues, while true PM via the oscillator
directly would never cause this.

Despite headroom issues, the audio-rate modulated analog APF still sounds
cool, by the way!

https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/dd2e6eff1c49d49479c0943615ebc36a19f4fa0d/3-Figure2-1.png
[image: 3-Figure2-1.png]

Rutger

Op do 6 jan. 2022 om 22:58 schreef ulfur hansson <ulfurh at gmail.com>:

> hey rutger!
>
> i have had amazing results with openmusiclabs sinecore design. I've
> changed it a lot for my own personal needs, but the basic circuit is all
> there and presented in a very informative way :) recommend checking it out!!
>
> very best,
> -?lfur
>
> fim., 6. jan. 2022 kl. 14:16 skrifa?i Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
>
>> Hi Neil,
>>
>>  Yes that schematic on page 22 describes very well what I'm doing, but
>> with an audio rate modulation signal added to the tracking cv of the all
>> pass filter. The problem occurs when input signal peaks and is added to
>> twice the output signal of the low pass filter when IT peaks. That can
>> happen when receiving a sudden change in the modulation CV.
>>
>> Rutger
>>
>> Op do 6 jan. 2022 13:08 schreef Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Hi Rutger,
>>>
>>> > Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a
>>> phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating
>>> an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the
>>> oscillator.
>>>
>>> See page 22:
>>> https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2130datasheet.pdf
>>>
>>> Implementation here:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-2UQ6zkSU
>>>
>>> That was modulated at a slow (manual) rate, so no idea what it does at
>>> faster rates.  Interesting question though....
>>>
>>> > ps. Happy healthy new year!
>>>
>>> Happy new year to you too!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Neil
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>
>
> --
> ?
> ulfurhansson.com
> instagram.com/ulfur_
> .??~ ?lfur - Arborescence on Spotify
> <https://open.spotify.com/album/118CEJliIg47Jcr70y7Kww>
>
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From lloydabbott94 at gmail.com  Fri Jan  7 13:03:20 2022
From: lloydabbott94 at gmail.com (Lloyd Abbott)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 12:03:20 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe0LOhJqVOCMijJ_ZSZh=M5CQBUNhm4xo2Gc6ckOuA26OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sD5FXr+12ULjFLjrEQ+PT76gPeAiHDDEZa=5_FC-npQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe2Pw8Vx180ifo8AmBuVFqbyU26geRLmr1ozj9+HDMiR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG9O7x3q-YKgHf1LGQJb+0Zx4zSqdZAQQ5Xh-N25eo1voseaHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe0LOhJqVOCMijJ_ZSZh=M5CQBUNhm4xo2Gc6ckOuA26OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALTWd1JATXPQLEuEjMtTZOjsm=8sMaidPpU8V1uZaHdsDWUHKw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't have the answer for an APF implementation that avoids the DC
excursion shown but one approach that I think would give something more
like the third plot is placing a HPF after the circuit giving the second
plot ? Provided that you have headroom for the second plot and that the
time-constant of the HPF is usable (i.e. not too long a settling time and
also not cutting the audio you want...).

Just a thought...

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 11:40 AM Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Thanks for the suggestion Ulfur! Do I assume correctly that it comes down
> to a mathematical equivalence of wave folding and phase modulation?
>
> In reply to others: I see that my original question may not have been
> phrased clearly enough. It's not about making the frequency of an all-pass
> filter change in time, which I know how to do. The problem is when you
> change the frequency at audio rate. The figure from the paper I referred to
> in my original post describes the problem well. It shows how a rapid
> modulation of the APF frequency (top graph) leads to a low-frequency
> component in the output (middle graph), which could be avoided (bottom
> graph). The analog APF I am using acts identical to the middle graph,
> leading to (unnecessary?) headroom issues, while true PM via the oscillator
> directly would never cause this.
>
> Despite headroom issues, the audio-rate modulated analog APF still sounds
> cool, by the way!
>
>
> https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/dd2e6eff1c49d49479c0943615ebc36a19f4fa0d/3-Figure2-1.png
> [image: 3-Figure2-1.png]
>
> Rutger
>
> Op do 6 jan. 2022 om 22:58 schreef ulfur hansson <ulfurh at gmail.com>:
>
>> hey rutger!
>>
>> i have had amazing results with openmusiclabs sinecore design. I've
>> changed it a lot for my own personal needs, but the basic circuit is all
>> there and presented in a very informative way :) recommend checking it out!!
>>
>> very best,
>> -?lfur
>>
>> fim., 6. jan. 2022 kl. 14:16 skrifa?i Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
>> synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
>>
>>> Hi Neil,
>>>
>>>  Yes that schematic on page 22 describes very well what I'm doing, but
>>> with an audio rate modulation signal added to the tracking cv of the all
>>> pass filter. The problem occurs when input signal peaks and is added to
>>> twice the output signal of the low pass filter when IT peaks. That can
>>> happen when receiving a sudden change in the modulation CV.
>>>
>>> Rutger
>>>
>>> Op do 6 jan. 2022 13:08 schreef Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Hi Rutger,
>>>>
>>>> > Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a
>>>> phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating
>>>> an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the
>>>> oscillator.
>>>>
>>>> See page 22:
>>>> https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2130datasheet.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Implementation here:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-2UQ6zkSU
>>>>
>>>> That was modulated at a slow (manual) rate, so no idea what it does at
>>>> faster rates.  Interesting question though....
>>>>
>>>> > ps. Happy healthy new year!
>>>>
>>>> Happy new year to you too!
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Neil
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ?
>> ulfurhansson.com
>> instagram.com/ulfur_
>> .??~ ?lfur - Arborescence on Spotify
>> <https://open.spotify.com/album/118CEJliIg47Jcr70y7Kww>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan  7 15:05:35 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:05:35 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe0LOhJqVOCMijJ_ZSZh=M5CQBUNhm4xo2Gc6ckOuA26OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sD5FXr+12ULjFLjrEQ+PT76gPeAiHDDEZa=5_FC-npQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe2Pw8Vx180ifo8AmBuVFqbyU26geRLmr1ozj9+HDMiR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG9O7x3q-YKgHf1LGQJb+0Zx4zSqdZAQQ5Xh-N25eo1voseaHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe0LOhJqVOCMijJ_ZSZh=M5CQBUNhm4xo2Gc6ckOuA26OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--pKjVVc9qH9JuYCLGdzbGN8iWPAF1P2XnFm1s7_dnr2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Have you considered adding some of the CV to the output, or possibly
subtracting? And then, as Lloyd suggested, follow that up with AC coupling.

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 12:41 PM Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Thanks for the suggestion Ulfur! Do I assume correctly that it comes down
> to a mathematical equivalence of wave folding and phase modulation?
>
> In reply to others: I see that my original question may not have been
> phrased clearly enough. It's not about making the frequency of an all-pass
> filter change in time, which I know how to do. The problem is when you
> change the frequency at audio rate. The figure from the paper I referred to
> in my original post describes the problem well. It shows how a rapid
> modulation of the APF frequency (top graph) leads to a low-frequency
> component in the output (middle graph), which could be avoided (bottom
> graph). The analog APF I am using acts identical to the middle graph,
> leading to (unnecessary?) headroom issues, while true PM via the oscillator
> directly would never cause this.
>
> Despite headroom issues, the audio-rate modulated analog APF still sounds
> cool, by the way!
>
>
> https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/dd2e6eff1c49d49479c0943615ebc36a19f4fa0d/3-Figure2-1.png
> [image: 3-Figure2-1.png]
>
> Rutger
>
> Op do 6 jan. 2022 om 22:58 schreef ulfur hansson <ulfurh at gmail.com>:
>
>> hey rutger!
>>
>> i have had amazing results with openmusiclabs sinecore design. I've
>> changed it a lot for my own personal needs, but the basic circuit is all
>> there and presented in a very informative way :) recommend checking it out!!
>>
>> very best,
>> -?lfur
>>
>> fim., 6. jan. 2022 kl. 14:16 skrifa?i Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
>> synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
>>
>>> Hi Neil,
>>>
>>>  Yes that schematic on page 22 describes very well what I'm doing, but
>>> with an audio rate modulation signal added to the tracking cv of the all
>>> pass filter. The problem occurs when input signal peaks and is added to
>>> twice the output signal of the low pass filter when IT peaks. That can
>>> happen when receiving a sudden change in the modulation CV.
>>>
>>> Rutger
>>>
>>> Op do 6 jan. 2022 13:08 schreef Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Hi Rutger,
>>>>
>>>> > Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a
>>>> phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating
>>>> an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the
>>>> oscillator.
>>>>
>>>> See page 22:
>>>> https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2130datasheet.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Implementation here:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-2UQ6zkSU
>>>>
>>>> That was modulated at a slow (manual) rate, so no idea what it does at
>>>> faster rates.  Interesting question though....
>>>>
>>>> > ps. Happy healthy new year!
>>>>
>>>> Happy new year to you too!
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Neil
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ?
>> ulfurhansson.com
>> instagram.com/ulfur_
>> .??~ ?lfur - Arborescence on Spotify
>> <https://open.spotify.com/album/118CEJliIg47Jcr70y7Kww>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From sines_list at scale.la  Sat Jan  8 17:18:52 2022
From: sines_list at scale.la (Todd Sines)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 11:18:52 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
Message-ID: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>

Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find some great news:

Message To Our Community
Posted on 01/7/22

Dear Friends and Customers:

Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement in principle to be acquired by synthCube.

Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.

We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, including makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.

The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.

Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.

Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team

https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/


Rejoice!


Todd




From jrblndr at gmail.com  Sat Jan  8 17:46:19 2022
From: jrblndr at gmail.com (Blender)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:46:19 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
Message-ID: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello fellow builders,

1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) by a
specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample playback
(ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came with quite a big
integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc). Now, my degrading
brain unfortunately forgot the name of the company, and i also fail to find
anything in my browser histories... spent a few hours today trying to
google it to no success.

i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in the v3sound
expander modules:
https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html

on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi which is similar, but
not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in their name,
maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio though. pretty sure i
was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at some point.

does anybody have a clue?

best,
philip
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From kenny at beatkamp.com  Sat Jan  8 17:56:05 2022
From: kenny at beatkamp.com (Kenny Balys)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 16:56:05 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <202201081656.208GuBQ0015566@dropmix.synth-diy.org>

This stuff?https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/343
-------- Original message --------From: Blender via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> Date: 2022-01-08  16:47  (GMT+00:00) To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module Hello fellow builders,1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) by a specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came with quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc). Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the company, and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... spent a few hours today trying to google it to no success.i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in the v3sound expander modules:https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.htmlon my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi which is similar, but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio though. pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at some point.does anybody have a clue?best,philip
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From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Sat Jan  8 17:59:20 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (MTG)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 08:59:20 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>

This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of adding 
this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:

SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf



On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
> Hello fellow builders,
>
> 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) by a 
> specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample 
> playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came with 
> quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc). 
> Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the company, 
> and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... spent a 
> few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>
> i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in the 
> v3sound expander modules:
> https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>
> on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi which is similar, 
> but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in 
> their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio though. 
> pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at some point.
>
> does anybody have a clue?
>
> best,
> philip
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Sat Jan  8 18:06:26 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (MTG)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:06:26 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <202201081656.208GuBQ0015566@dropmix.synth-diy.org>
References: <202201081656.208GuBQ0015566@dropmix.synth-diy.org>
Message-ID: <6d16aa6d-5ab9-a20b-4cf3-425e929a99a1@musictechnologiesgroup.com>

Also FWIW, Winbond bought ISD, so there might have been some later 
development there. ISD made analog record/playback ICs.

On 1/8/2022 8:56 AM, Kenny Balys wrote:
>
>
> This stuff?
>
> https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/343
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Blender via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> Date: 2022-01-08 16:47 (GMT+00:00)
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
>
> Hello fellow builders,
>
> 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) by a 
> specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample 
> playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came with 
> quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc). 
> Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the company, 
> and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... spent a 
> few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>
> i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in the 
> v3sound expander modules:
> https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>
> on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi which is similar, 
> but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in 
> their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio though. 
> pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at some point.
>
> does anybody have a clue?
>
> best,
> philip
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Usemarketplace at synth-diy.org
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From jrblndr at gmail.com  Sat Jan  8 19:34:31 2022
From: jrblndr at gmail.com (Blender)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 19:34:31 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
Message-ID: <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>

thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after
sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also finally
found some old emails i tried sending them, without any response. and it
still is really hard to find any kind of information or even shops for
these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are being used in quite a lot
of commercial products. looks like ATMEL might have bought the company in
the meantime? or at least they also offer similar series of SAM-named
synthesis SOCs. i reached out via email (for the third time over 2
years...) to see if they respond.

https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5

but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case close -
*unless* someon has experience with those chips and is willing to share
some information

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:

> This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of adding
> this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
>
> SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
> http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>
>
>
> On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
> > Hello fellow builders,
> >
> > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) by a
> > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample
> > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came with
> > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc).
> > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the company,
> > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... spent a
> > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
> >
> > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in the
> > v3sound expander modules:
> > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
> >
> > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi which is similar,
> > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in
> > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio though.
> > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at some point.
> >
> > does anybody have a clue?
> >
> > best,
> > philip
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From steve at bendentech.co.uk  Sun Jan  9 13:33:43 2022
From: steve at bendentech.co.uk (Steve Lenham)
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 12:33:43 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4377562d-a242-0760-803c-08db1bb80e82@bendentech.co.uk>

You can theoretically buy the Dream ICs and associated development 
boards from distributor Profusion in the UK:

https://www.profusionplc.com/type/dsp-audio?mnf=dream

However, none of them can be ordered online (unlike the rest of 
Profusion's offerings) and instead one is invited to contact them 
directly. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this says to me that there are hidden 
criteria that must be met before one will be allowed to buy Dream products.

This plus the fact that, despite being around in some form since at 
least 1990 (the Evolution EVS1, released that year, was based around a 
SAMxxxx IC, and the SAM8905 appears in Barry Klein's Music IC Datasheet 
book), they have a profile lower than a snake's belly, indicates that 
they know very well who they want to deal with, that they are already 
dealing with them and that everyone else can take a hike.

Of course, if your products are good enough then you earn the right to 
do what you please...

Cheers,

Steve L.

On 08/01/2022 18:34, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after 
> sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also 
> finally found some old emails i tried sending them, without any 
> response. and it still is really hard to find any kind of information 
> or even shops for these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are 
> being used in quite a lot of commercial products. looks like ATMEL 
> might have bought the company in the meantime? or at least they also 
> offer similar series of SAM-named synthesis SOCs. i reached out via 
> email (for the third time over 2 years...) to see if they respond.
>
> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5
>
> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case close 
> - /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is willing to 
> share some information
>
> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> 
> wrote:
>
>     This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of
>     adding
>     this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
>
>     SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
>     http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>
>
>
>     On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>     > Hello fellow builders,
>     >
>     > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) by a
>     > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample
>     > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came
>     with
>     > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc).
>     > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
>     company,
>     > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... spent a
>     > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>     >
>     > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in the
>     > v3sound expander modules:
>     > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>     >
>     > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi which is
>     similar,
>     > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in
>     > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
>     though.
>     > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at
>     some point.
>     >
>     > does anybody have a clue?
>     >
>     > best,
>     > philip
>
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From mars at pingdynasty.com  Sun Jan  9 21:15:15 2022
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 21:15:15 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <4377562d-a242-0760-803c-08db1bb80e82@bendentech.co.uk>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4377562d-a242-0760-803c-08db1bb80e82@bendentech.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3d4efb54-7f2f-0d4d-f318-d8bbb8d9da12@pingdynasty.com>


I wonder what products these devices are used in.

Seems you can buy modules with Dream chips from a place called 
serdashop, e.g.

https://www.serdashop.com/waveblaster

https://www.serdashop.com/DreamBlasterX2

though some of them say this:

"WARNING: This product may not be installed in any musical instrument. 
Using this product in the manufacture of musical instruments or selling 
this product for use in a musical instrument is a violation of the 
intellectual property rights of Roland Corporation and will result in 
liability for infringement."

They also have a parallel port, OPL3 FM synthesizer soundcard, lol! I 
guess they're made for retro gaming?


Martin


On 09/01/2022 13:33, Steve Lenham wrote:
> You can theoretically buy the Dream ICs and associated development 
> boards from distributor Profusion in the UK:
>
> https://www.profusionplc.com/type/dsp-audio?mnf=dream
>
> However, none of them can be ordered online (unlike the rest of 
> Profusion's offerings) and instead one is invited to contact them 
> directly. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this says to me that there are hidden 
> criteria that must be met before one will be allowed to buy Dream 
> products.
>
> This plus the fact that, despite being around in some form since at 
> least 1990 (the Evolution EVS1, released that year, was based around a 
> SAMxxxx IC, and the SAM8905 appears in Barry Klein's Music IC 
> Datasheet book), they have a profile lower than a snake's belly, 
> indicates that they know very well who they want to deal with, that 
> they are already dealing with them and that everyone else can take a hike.
>
> Of course, if your products are good enough then you earn the right to 
> do what you please...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steve L.
>
> On 08/01/2022 18:34, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after 
>> sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also 
>> finally found some old emails i tried sending them, without any 
>> response. and it still is really hard to find any kind of information 
>> or even shops for these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are 
>> being used in quite a lot of commercial products. looks like ATMEL 
>> might have bought the company in the meantime? or at least they also 
>> offer similar series of SAM-named synthesis SOCs. i reached out via 
>> email (for the third time over 2 years...) to see if they respond.
>>
>> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5
>>
>> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case 
>> close - /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is 
>> willing to share some information
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>     This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of
>>     adding
>>     this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
>>
>>     SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
>>     http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>>     > Hello fellow builders,
>>     >
>>     > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?)
>>     by a
>>     > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample
>>     > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came
>>     with
>>     > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc).
>>     > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
>>     company,
>>     > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories...
>>     spent a
>>     > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>>     >
>>     > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in
>>     the
>>     > v3sound expander modules:
>>     > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>>     >
>>     > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi which is
>>     similar,
>>     > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in
>>     > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
>>     though.
>>     > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at
>>     some point.
>>     >
>>     > does anybody have a clue?
>>     >
>>     > best,
>>     > philip
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
-------------- next part --------------
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From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Mon Jan 10 11:07:13 2022
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 10:07:13 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
Message-ID: <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>

This is fantastic news!
Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube seem 
to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep niche 
things going in this fast paced world.

On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
> Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find some great news:
>
> Message To Our Community
> Posted on 01/7/22
>
> Dear Friends and Customers:
>
> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>
> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>
> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, including makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>
> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.
>
> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>
> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>
> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>
>
> Rejoice!
>
>
> Todd
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jan 10 11:10:08 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:10:08 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>

As someone who actually held that mysterious DREAM chips in hands, let 
me tell you a little story.
Back in the 90's together with a friend we were trying to make virtual 
pipe organ using those DREAM rompler chips. They had all it takes, easy 
to use, everything was just swell. But DREAM team is at the top skill 
level of customer avoidance. My friend had to buy development platform 
for some $3K, which was enormous amount of money for us here back then. 
He also managed to buy something like smaller starter kit, I can't 
remember the details anymore. Then they started to talk to him. He got 
datasheets, programing manuals, and the chips themselves, just a few 
samples, but it was huge victory. He got to the point when he was making 
his own baords with DREAM chip soldered.
And then he died.

I still have most of his stuff, but the development platform stayed with 
his family (PC with Dream software and huge card with Dream chips)

I also tried to get other Dream chips, there used to be General MIDI 
chip available for some time, basicaly entire SoundCanvas synth in a 
chip. Just add DAC and MIDI jack. I got one as a sample. When I tried to 
buy them, local authorized distributor told me Atmel will not even talk 
to them about this.

Roman


W dniu 2022-01-08 o?19:34, Blender via Synth-diy pisze:
> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after 
> sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also 
> finally found some old emails i tried sending them, without any 
> response. and it still is really hard to find any kind of information or 
> even shops for these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are being 
> used in quite a lot of commercial products. looks like ATMEL might have 
> bought the company in the meantime? or at least they also offer similar 
> series of SAM-named synthesis SOCs. i reached out via email (for the 
> third time over 2 years...) to see if they respond.
> 
> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5 <https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5>
> 
> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case close - 
> /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is willing to share 
> some information
> 
> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com 
> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> wrote:
> 
>     This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of adding
>     this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
> 
>     SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
>     http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>     <http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf>
> 
> 
> 
>     On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>      > Hello fellow builders,
>      >
>      > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) by a
>      > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample
>      > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came with
>      > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc).
>      > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
>     company,
>      > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... spent a
>      > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>      >
>      > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in the
>      > v3sound expander modules:
>      > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>     <https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html>
>      >
>      > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi
>     <https://www.vlsi.fi> which is similar,
>      > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in
>      > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
>     though.
>      > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at some
>     point.
>      >
>      > does anybody have a clue?
>      >
>      > best,
>      > philip
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > Synth-diy mailing list
>      > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>      > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>      > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Synth-diy mailing list
>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jan 10 11:35:13 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:35:13 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <40559049-fd46-0849-8d5f-9a3e634ca72a@go2.pl>

Amazing!
I witnessed how SynthCube started, offering just a handful of almost 
ridiculous things, and now they're just one step away from taking over 
the world domination!
I'm happy for you :)

Roman


W dniu 2022-01-10 o?11:07, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy pisze:
> This is fantastic news!
> Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube seem 
> to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep niche 
> things going in this fast paced world.
> 
> On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
>> Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find 
>> some great news:
>>
>> Message To Our Community
>> Posted on 01/7/22
>>
>> Dear Friends and Customers:
>>
>> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement in 
>> principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>>
>> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to 
>> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as 
>> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill 
>> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for 
>> synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it 
>> organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>>
>> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will 
>> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, including 
>> makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>>
>> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and 
>> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and DIY 
>> audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and competitive 
>> prices for components purchased in bulk, with a particular focus on 
>> analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.
>>
>> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>>
>> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>>
>> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>>
>>
>> Rejoice!
>>
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jan 10 11:46:51 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:46:51 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>

And here's a photo of the starter kit.
I couldn't help it not taking a photo now, it's been laying in a box for 
all those years
http://www.synthdiy.eu/files/DSC_6197.JPG

It still breaks my heart looking at it, because I never carried on with 
it and not finished the man's work...

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-10 o?11:10, Roman Sowa pisze:
> As someone who actually held that mysterious DREAM chips in hands, let 
> me tell you a little story.
> Back in the 90's together with a friend we were trying to make virtual 
> pipe organ using those DREAM rompler chips. They had all it takes, easy 
> to use, everything was just swell. But DREAM team is at the top skill 
> level of customer avoidance. My friend had to buy development platform 
> for some $3K, which was enormous amount of money for us here back then. 
> He also managed to buy something like smaller starter kit, I can't 
> remember the details anymore. Then they started to talk to him. He got 
> datasheets, programing manuals, and the chips themselves, just a few 
> samples, but it was huge victory. He got to the point when he was making 
> his own baords with DREAM chip soldered.
> And then he died.
> 
> I still have most of his stuff, but the development platform stayed with 
> his family (PC with Dream software and huge card with Dream chips)
> 
> I also tried to get other Dream chips, there used to be General MIDI 
> chip available for some time, basicaly entire SoundCanvas synth in a 
> chip. Just add DAC and MIDI jack. I got one as a sample. When I tried to 
> buy them, local authorized distributor told me Atmel will not even talk 
> to them about this.
> 
> Roman
> 
> 
> W dniu 2022-01-08 o?19:34, Blender via Synth-diy pisze:
>> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after 
>> sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also 
>> finally found some old emails i tried sending them, without any 
>> response. and it still is really hard to find any kind of information 
>> or even shops for these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are 
>> being used in quite a lot of commercial products. looks like ATMEL 
>> might have bought the company in the meantime? or at least they also 
>> offer similar series of SAM-named synthesis SOCs. i reached out via 
>> email (for the third time over 2 years...) to see if they respond.
>>
>> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5 
>> <https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5>
>>
>> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case close 
>> - /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is willing to 
>> share some information
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com 
>> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> wrote:
>>
>> ??? This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of 
>> adding
>> ??? this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
>>
>> ??? SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
>> ??? http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>> ??? <http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf>
>>
>>
>>
>> ??? On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>> ???? > Hello fellow builders,
>> ???? >
>> ???? > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) 
>> by a
>> ???? > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample
>> ???? > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came 
>> with
>> ???? > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc).
>> ???? > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
>> ??? company,
>> ???? > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... 
>> spent a
>> ???? > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>> ???? >
>> ???? > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in 
>> the
>> ???? > v3sound expander modules:
>> ???? > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>> ??? <https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html>
>> ???? >
>> ???? > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi
>> ??? <https://www.vlsi.fi> which is similar,
>> ???? > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in
>> ???? > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
>> ??? though.
>> ???? > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at some
>> ??? point.
>> ???? >
>> ???? > does anybody have a clue?
>> ???? >
>> ???? > best,
>> ???? > philip
>> ???? >
>> ???? > _______________________________________________
>> ???? > Synth-diy mailing list
>> ???? > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> ???? > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> ??? <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> ???? > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> ??? <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>
>> ??? _______________________________________________
>> ??? Synth-diy mailing list
>> ??? Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> ??? http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> ??? <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> ??? Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> ??? <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Mon Jan 10 12:10:29 2022
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:10:29 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <965cfdec-f4f0-9d3e-12a0-630b5f22d122@bugbrand.co.uk>

I'm just glad that no-one has said, in reference to D:Ream chips, that 
things can only get better ?

On 10/01/2022 10:46, Roman Sowa wrote:
> And here's a photo of the starter kit.
> I couldn't help it not taking a photo now, it's been laying in a box 
> for all those years
> http://www.synthdiy.eu/files/DSC_6197.JPG
>
> It still breaks my heart looking at it, because I never carried on 
> with it and not finished the man's work...
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-01-10 o?11:10, Roman Sowa pisze:
>> As someone who actually held that mysterious DREAM chips in hands, 
>> let me tell you a little story.
>> Back in the 90's together with a friend we were trying to make 
>> virtual pipe organ using those DREAM rompler chips. They had all it 
>> takes, easy to use, everything was just swell. But DREAM team is at 
>> the top skill level of customer avoidance. My friend had to buy 
>> development platform for some $3K, which was enormous amount of money 
>> for us here back then. He also managed to buy something like smaller 
>> starter kit, I can't remember the details anymore. Then they started 
>> to talk to him. He got datasheets, programing manuals, and the chips 
>> themselves, just a few samples, but it was huge victory. He got to 
>> the point when he was making his own baords with DREAM chip soldered.
>> And then he died.
>>
>> I still have most of his stuff, but the development platform stayed 
>> with his family (PC with Dream software and huge card with Dream chips)
>>
>> I also tried to get other Dream chips, there used to be General MIDI 
>> chip available for some time, basicaly entire SoundCanvas synth in a 
>> chip. Just add DAC and MIDI jack. I got one as a sample. When I tried 
>> to buy them, local authorized distributor told me Atmel will not even 
>> talk to them about this.
>>
>> Roman
>>
>>
>> W dniu 2022-01-08 o?19:34, Blender via Synth-diy pisze:
>>> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes 
>>> after sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I 
>>> also finally found some old emails i tried sending them, without any 
>>> response. and it still is really hard to find any kind of 
>>> information or even shops for these chips, eve though i am pretty 
>>> sure they are being used in quite a lot of commercial products. 
>>> looks like ATMEL might have bought the company in the meantime? or 
>>> at least they also offer similar series of SAM-named synthesis SOCs. 
>>> i reached out via email (for the third time over 2 years...) to see 
>>> if they respond.
>>>
>>> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5 
>>> <https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5>
>>>
>>> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case 
>>> close - /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is 
>>> willing to share some information
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com 
>>> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ??? This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of 
>>> adding
>>> ??? this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
>>>
>>> ??? SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
>>> ??? http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>>> <http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??? On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>>> ???? > Hello fellow builders,
>>> ???? >
>>> ???? > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb 
>>> module?) by a
>>> ???? > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample
>>> ???? > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that 
>>> came with
>>> ???? > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options 
>>> iirc).
>>> ???? > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
>>> ??? company,
>>> ???? > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... 
>>> spent a
>>> ???? > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>>> ???? >
>>> ???? > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used 
>>> in the
>>> ???? > v3sound expander modules:
>>> ???? > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>>> <https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html>
>>> ???? >
>>> ???? > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi
>>> ??? <https://www.vlsi.fi> which is similar,
>>> ???? > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an 
>>> "f" in
>>> ???? > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
>>> ??? though.
>>> ???? > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at 
>>> some
>>> ??? point.
>>> ???? >
>>> ???? > does anybody have a clue?
>>> ???? >
>>> ???? > best,
>>> ???? > philip
>>> ???? >
>>> ???? > _______________________________________________
>>> ???? > Synth-diy mailing list
>>> ???? > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>> ???? > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> ??? <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>> ???? > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> ??? <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>>
>>> ??? _______________________________________________
>>> ??? Synth-diy mailing list
>>> ??? Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>> ??? http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> ??? <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>> ??? Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> ??? <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From controlvoltage at gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 12:30:16 2022
From: controlvoltage at gmail.com (Amos)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 06:30:16 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <965cfdec-f4f0-9d3e-12a0-630b5f22d122@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <965cfdec-f4f0-9d3e-12a0-630b5f22d122@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAFfX4PHjMMDj7uj-uw2oeK9=1zsusChBHRNxq6ZDU3RX=4QYaA@mail.gmail.com>

Fun factoid: the Moog PianoBar sound module is powered by one of those
Dream ROMpler chips.

On Monday, January 10, 2022, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
wrote:

> I'm just glad that no-one has said, in reference to D:Ream chips, that
> things can only get better ?
>
> On 10/01/2022 10:46, Roman Sowa wrote:
>
>> And here's a photo of the starter kit.
>> I couldn't help it not taking a photo now, it's been laying in a box for
>> all those years
>> http://www.synthdiy.eu/files/DSC_6197.JPG
>>
>> It still breaks my heart looking at it, because I never carried on with
>> it and not finished the man's work...
>>
>> Roman
>>
>> W dniu 2022-01-10 o 11:10, Roman Sowa pisze:
>>
>>> As someone who actually held that mysterious DREAM chips in hands, let
>>> me tell you a little story.
>>> Back in the 90's together with a friend we were trying to make virtual
>>> pipe organ using those DREAM rompler chips. They had all it takes, easy to
>>> use, everything was just swell. But DREAM team is at the top skill level of
>>> customer avoidance. My friend had to buy development platform for some $3K,
>>> which was enormous amount of money for us here back then. He also managed
>>> to buy something like smaller starter kit, I can't remember the details
>>> anymore. Then they started to talk to him. He got datasheets, programing
>>> manuals, and the chips themselves, just a few samples, but it was huge
>>> victory. He got to the point when he was making his own baords with DREAM
>>> chip soldered.
>>> And then he died.
>>>
>>> I still have most of his stuff, but the development platform stayed with
>>> his family (PC with Dream software and huge card with Dream chips)
>>>
>>> I also tried to get other Dream chips, there used to be General MIDI
>>> chip available for some time, basicaly entire SoundCanvas synth in a chip.
>>> Just add DAC and MIDI jack. I got one as a sample. When I tried to buy
>>> them, local authorized distributor told me Atmel will not even talk to them
>>> about this.
>>>
>>> Roman
>>>
>>>
>>> W dniu 2022-01-08 o 19:34, Blender via Synth-diy pisze:
>>>
>>>> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after
>>>> sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also finally
>>>> found some old emails i tried sending them, without any response. and it
>>>> still is really hard to find any kind of information or even shops for
>>>> these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are being used in quite a lot
>>>> of commercial products. looks like ATMEL might have bought the company in
>>>> the meantime? or at least they also offer similar series of SAM-named
>>>> synthesis SOCs. i reached out via email (for the third time over 2
>>>> years...) to see if they respond.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5 <https://www.dream.fr/devices.
>>>> html#S5>
>>>>
>>>> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case close
>>>> - /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is willing to share
>>>> some information
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
>>>> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of
>>>> adding
>>>>     this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
>>>>
>>>>     SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
>>>>     http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>>>> <http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>>>>      > Hello fellow builders,
>>>>      >
>>>>      > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?)
>>>> by a
>>>>      > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex sample
>>>>      > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that came
>>>> with
>>>>      > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options
>>>> iirc).
>>>>      > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
>>>>     company,
>>>>      > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories...
>>>> spent a
>>>>      > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>>>>      >
>>>>      > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used in
>>>> the
>>>>      > v3sound expander modules:
>>>>      > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>>>> <https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html>
>>>>      >
>>>>      > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi
>>>>     <https://www.vlsi.fi> which is similar,
>>>>      > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" in
>>>>      > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
>>>>     though.
>>>>      > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at some
>>>>     point.
>>>>      >
>>>>      > does anybody have a clue?
>>>>      >
>>>>      > best,
>>>>      > philip
>>>>      >
>>>>      > _______________________________________________
>>>>      > Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>      > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>>>      > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>>>      > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>>>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>>>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>
> --
> BugBrand LTD
> UK company No. 07199808
> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
> 1 Ninetree Hill
> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
> United Kingdom
> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 10 12:30:57 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:30:57 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>

I think your friend may have got this system before Roland won their court case and all his effort would have gone to waste anyway.  The final agreement said the chips could only be used in karaoke machines, PC sound cards and the like.   I think a virtual pipe organ would definitely have been out of bounds as it would probably have competed with Roland's products and violated their copyrights.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
Sent: 10 January 2022 10:47
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module

And here's a photo of the starter kit.
I couldn't help it not taking a photo now, it's been laying in a box for all those years http://www.synthdiy.eu/files/DSC_6197.JPG

It still breaks my heart looking at it, because I never carried on with it and not finished the man's work...

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-10 o?11:10, Roman Sowa pisze:
> As someone who actually held that mysterious DREAM chips in hands, let 
> me tell you a little story.
> Back in the 90's together with a friend we were trying to make virtual 
> pipe organ using those DREAM rompler chips. They had all it takes, 
> easy to use, everything was just swell. But DREAM team is at the top 
> skill level of customer avoidance. My friend had to buy development 
> platform for some $3K, which was enormous amount of money for us here back then.
> He also managed to buy something like smaller starter kit, I can't 
> remember the details anymore. Then they started to talk to him. He got 
> datasheets, programing manuals, and the chips themselves, just a few 
> samples, but it was huge victory. He got to the point when he was 
> making his own baords with DREAM chip soldered.
> And then he died.
> 
> I still have most of his stuff, but the development platform stayed 
> with his family (PC with Dream software and huge card with Dream 
> chips)
> 
> I also tried to get other Dream chips, there used to be General MIDI 
> chip available for some time, basicaly entire SoundCanvas synth in a 
> chip. Just add DAC and MIDI jack. I got one as a sample. When I tried 
> to buy them, local authorized distributor told me Atmel will not even 
> talk to them about this.
> 
> Roman
> 
> 
> W dniu 2022-01-08 o?19:34, Blender via Synth-diy pisze:
>> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after 
>> sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also 
>> finally found some old emails i tried sending them, without any 
>> response. and it still is really hard to find any kind of information 
>> or even shops for these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are 
>> being used in quite a lot of commercial products. looks like ATMEL 
>> might have bought the company in the meantime? or at least they also 
>> offer similar series of SAM-named synthesis SOCs. i reached out via 
>> email (for the third time over 2 years...) to see if they respond.
>>
>> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5
>> <https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5>
>>
>> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case 
>> close
>> - /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is willing to 
>> share some information
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com 
>> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> wrote:
>>
>> ??? This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of 
>> adding
>> ??? this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
>>
>> ??? SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
>> ??? http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>> ??? <http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf>
>>
>>
>>
>> ??? On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>> ???? > Hello fellow builders,
>> ???? >
>> ???? > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?) 
>> by a
>> ???? > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex 
>> sample
>> ???? > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that 
>> came with
>> ???? > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options iirc).
>> ???? > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
>> ??? company,
>> ???? > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories... 
>> spent a
>> ???? > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>> ???? >
>> ???? > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used 
>> in the
>> ???? > v3sound expander modules:
>> ???? > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>> ??? <https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html>
>> ???? >
>> ???? > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi
>> ??? <https://www.vlsi.fi> which is similar,
>> ???? > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f" 
>> in
>> ???? > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
>> ??? though.
>> ???? > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at 
>> some
>> ??? point.
>> ???? >
>> ???? > does anybody have a clue?
>> ???? >
>> ???? > best,
>> ???? > philip
>> ???? >
>> ???? > _______________________________________________
>> ???? > Synth-diy mailing list
>> ???? > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> ???? > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> ??? <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> ???? > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> ??? <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>
>> ??? _______________________________________________
>> ??? Synth-diy mailing list
>> ??? Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> ??? http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> ??? <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> ??? Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> ??? <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From loscha at gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 12:45:14 2022
From: loscha at gmail.com (Loscha)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:45:14 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>

I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
Which also has a Dream chip in it.
(image is almost 20 meg, so I've uploaded ot my google drive)
Not my original image, and I cannot find where I got it from. Possibly
Flickr about 10 years ago.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12YoEtNpt-6t7Jvga-BWbIIfVWXTtRQSg/view?usp=sharing

On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 at 22:33, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> I think your friend may have got this system before Roland won their court
> case and all his effort would have gone to waste anyway.  The final
> agreement said the chips could only be used in karaoke machines, PC sound
> cards and the like.   I think a virtual pipe organ would definitely have
> been out of bounds as it would probably have competed with Roland's
> products and violated their copyrights.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> Roman Sowa
> Sent: 10 January 2022 10:47
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
>
> And here's a photo of the starter kit.
> I couldn't help it not taking a photo now, it's been laying in a box for
> all those years http://www.synthdiy.eu/files/DSC_6197.JPG
>
> It still breaks my heart looking at it, because I never carried on with it
> and not finished the man's work...
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-01-10 o 11:10, Roman Sowa pisze:
> > As someone who actually held that mysterious DREAM chips in hands, let
> > me tell you a little story.
> > Back in the 90's together with a friend we were trying to make virtual
> > pipe organ using those DREAM rompler chips. They had all it takes,
> > easy to use, everything was just swell. But DREAM team is at the top
> > skill level of customer avoidance. My friend had to buy development
> > platform for some $3K, which was enormous amount of money for us here
> back then.
> > He also managed to buy something like smaller starter kit, I can't
> > remember the details anymore. Then they started to talk to him. He got
> > datasheets, programing manuals, and the chips themselves, just a few
> > samples, but it was huge victory. He got to the point when he was
> > making his own baords with DREAM chip soldered.
> > And then he died.
> >
> > I still have most of his stuff, but the development platform stayed
> > with his family (PC with Dream software and huge card with Dream
> > chips)
> >
> > I also tried to get other Dream chips, there used to be General MIDI
> > chip available for some time, basicaly entire SoundCanvas synth in a
> > chip. Just add DAC and MIDI jack. I got one as a sample. When I tried
> > to buy them, local authorized distributor told me Atmel will not even
> > talk to them about this.
> >
> > Roman
> >
> >
> > W dniu 2022-01-08 o 19:34, Blender via Synth-diy pisze:
> >> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after
> >> sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also
> >> finally found some old emails i tried sending them, without any
> >> response. and it still is really hard to find any kind of information
> >> or even shops for these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are
> >> being used in quite a lot of commercial products. looks like ATMEL
> >> might have bought the company in the meantime? or at least they also
> >> offer similar series of SAM-named synthesis SOCs. i reached out via
> >> email (for the third time over 2 years...) to see if they respond.
> >>
> >> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5
> >> <https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5>
> >>
> >> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case
> >> close
> >> - /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is willing to
> >> share some information
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
> >> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of
> >> adding
> >>     this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
> >>
> >>     SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
> >>     http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
> >>     <http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
> >>      > Hello fellow builders,
> >>      >
> >>      > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?)
> >> by a
> >>      > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex
> >> sample
> >>      > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that
> >> came with
> >>      > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options
> iirc).
> >>      > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
> >>     company,
> >>      > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories...
> >> spent a
> >>      > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
> >>      >
> >>      > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used
> >> in the
> >>      > v3sound expander modules:
> >>      > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
> >>     <https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html>
> >>      >
> >>      > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi
> >>     <https://www.vlsi.fi> which is similar,
> >>      > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f"
> >> in
> >>      > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
> >>     though.
> >>      > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at
> >> some
> >>     point.
> >>      >
> >>      > does anybody have a clue?
> >>      >
> >>      > best,
> >>      > philip
> >>      >
> >>      > _______________________________________________
> >>      > Synth-diy mailing list
> >>      > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> >>      > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> >>      > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> >>
> >>     _______________________________________________
> >>     Synth-diy mailing list
> >>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> >>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> >>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From philgallo at gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 16:55:11 2022
From: philgallo at gmail.com (Phillip Gallo)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:55:11 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN4YM6enfb42U98aTY1YRVDpqy-hKdR4u=RQrYFqXe1owHhfVg@mail.gmail.com>

These parts would appear and dis-appear in ATMEL data books and disks back
(IIRC) the '90's.  Wiki lists as reference:

https://datasheet.datasheetarchive.com/originals/scans/Scans-99/DSAIHSC000113160.pdf

http://www.amoretro.de/tag/dream-sam9407

https://www.eetimes.com/atmel-introduces-a-new-generation-of-sound-synthesis-ics/?print=yes

p


On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 4:48 AM Loscha via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
> Which also has a Dream chip in it.
> (image is almost 20 meg, so I've uploaded ot my google drive)
> Not my original image, and I cannot find where I got it from. Possibly
> Flickr about 10 years ago.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/12YoEtNpt-6t7Jvga-BWbIIfVWXTtRQSg/view?usp=sharing
>
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 at 22:33, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think your friend may have got this system before Roland won their
>> court case and all his effort would have gone to waste anyway.  The final
>> agreement said the chips could only be used in karaoke machines, PC sound
>> cards and the like.   I think a virtual pipe organ would definitely have
>> been out of bounds as it would probably have competed with Roland's
>> products and violated their copyrights.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
>> Roman Sowa
>> Sent: 10 January 2022 10:47
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander
>> IC/module
>>
>> And here's a photo of the starter kit.
>> I couldn't help it not taking a photo now, it's been laying in a box for
>> all those years http://www.synthdiy.eu/files/DSC_6197.JPG
>>
>> It still breaks my heart looking at it, because I never carried on with
>> it and not finished the man's work...
>>
>> Roman
>>
>> W dniu 2022-01-10 o 11:10, Roman Sowa pisze:
>> > As someone who actually held that mysterious DREAM chips in hands, let
>> > me tell you a little story.
>> > Back in the 90's together with a friend we were trying to make virtual
>> > pipe organ using those DREAM rompler chips. They had all it takes,
>> > easy to use, everything was just swell. But DREAM team is at the top
>> > skill level of customer avoidance. My friend had to buy development
>> > platform for some $3K, which was enormous amount of money for us here
>> back then.
>> > He also managed to buy something like smaller starter kit, I can't
>> > remember the details anymore. Then they started to talk to him. He got
>> > datasheets, programing manuals, and the chips themselves, just a few
>> > samples, but it was huge victory. He got to the point when he was
>> > making his own baords with DREAM chip soldered.
>> > And then he died.
>> >
>> > I still have most of his stuff, but the development platform stayed
>> > with his family (PC with Dream software and huge card with Dream
>> > chips)
>> >
>> > I also tried to get other Dream chips, there used to be General MIDI
>> > chip available for some time, basicaly entire SoundCanvas synth in a
>> > chip. Just add DAC and MIDI jack. I got one as a sample. When I tried
>> > to buy them, local authorized distributor told me Atmel will not even
>> > talk to them about this.
>> >
>> > Roman
>> >
>> >
>> > W dniu 2022-01-08 o 19:34, Blender via Synth-diy pisze:
>> >> thanks everybody, OF COURSE i finally found it myself 5 minutes after
>> >> sending this email out... its DREAMs SAM chips from france. I also
>> >> finally found some old emails i tried sending them, without any
>> >> response. and it still is really hard to find any kind of information
>> >> or even shops for these chips, eve though i am pretty sure they are
>> >> being used in quite a lot of commercial products. looks like ATMEL
>> >> might have bought the company in the meantime? or at least they also
>> >> offer similar series of SAM-named synthesis SOCs. i reached out via
>> >> email (for the third time over 2 years...) to see if they respond.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5
>> >> <https://www.dream.fr/devices.html#S5>
>> >>
>> >> but yeah, thanks for your guys input as well, consider this case
>> >> close
>> >> - /unless/ someon has experience with those chips and is willing to
>> >> share some information
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM MTG <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
>> >> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>     This is NOT the chip you are looking for, but in the interest of
>> >> adding
>> >>     this rompler to the mailing list archives I give you an OLD chip:
>> >>
>> >>     SGS Thomson M114S Digital Sound Generator
>> >>     http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf
>> >>     <http://elektronikjk.pl/elementy_czynne/IC/M114S.pdf>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>     On 1/8/2022 8:46 AM, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
>> >>      > Hello fellow builders,
>> >>      >
>> >>      > 1-2 years ago i discovered this chip (or was it a pcb module?)
>> >> by a
>> >>      > specialized manufacturer that allowed for rather complex
>> >> sample
>> >>      > playback (ie. with multi-sampling, envelopes etc etc) that
>> >> came with
>> >>      > quite a big integrated memory (at least 4gb and 8gb options
>> iirc).
>> >>      > Now, my degrading brain unfortunately forgot the name of the
>> >>     company,
>> >>      > and i also fail to find anything in my browser histories...
>> >> spent a
>> >>      > few hours today trying to google it to no success.
>> >>      >
>> >>      > i am pretty sure the same or at least a similar chip is used
>> >> in the
>> >>      > v3sound expander modules:
>> >>      > https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html
>> >>     <https://www.v3sound.com/de/d-produkt-sonority-xxl.html>
>> >>      >
>> >>      > on my search today i came across https://www.vlsi.fi
>> >>     <https://www.vlsi.fi> which is similar,
>> >>      > but not it. i do think to remember that the company had an "f"
>> >> in
>> >>      > their name, maybe "fun" or "cool"? obviously its not coolaudio
>> >>     though.
>> >>      > pretty sure i was on the (chinese?) OEM manufacturer site at
>> >> some
>> >>     point.
>> >>      >
>> >>      > does anybody have a clue?
>> >>      >
>> >>      > best,
>> >>      > philip
>> >>      >
>> >>      > _______________________________________________
>> >>      > Synth-diy mailing list
>> >>      > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> >>      > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> >>      > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>> >>
>> >>     _______________________________________________
>> >>     Synth-diy mailing list
>> >>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> >>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> >>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Mon Jan 10 18:31:57 2022
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 12:31:57 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <40559049-fd46-0849-8d5f-9a3e634ca72a@go2.pl>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <40559049-fd46-0849-8d5f-9a3e634ca72a@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <000001d80647$f8006610$e8013230$@oricom.ca>

This is such great news to start 2022 !
I've been a very happy customer of Small Bear for many years
And was very sad to hear an end of their shop.
I did business with SynthCube over the last years and
find they are the best for a 'take over' .
Congrats !

> >> Message To Our Community
> >> Posted on 01/7/22
> >>
> >> Dear Friends and Customers:
> >>
> >> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement
> >> in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
> >>
> >> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to
> >> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as
> >> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill
> >> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for
> >> synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it
> >> organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
> >>
> >> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will
> >> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, including
> >> makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
> >>
> >> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and
> >> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and
> >> DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and
> >> competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a
> >> particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.
> >>
> >> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
> >>
> >> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
> >>
> >> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
> >>
> >>
> >> Rejoice!
> >>
> >>
> >> Todd
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From obl64 at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jan 10 20:26:10 2022
From: obl64 at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 13:26:10 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>

Nice!

I've bought from Small Bear since Steve started it. I'm hoping synthCube 
will be here for the long haul. The waters are so rough and unpredictable.

- Oren

On 1/10/22 4:07 AM, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy wrote:
> This is fantastic news!
> Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube 
> seem to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep 
> niche things going in this fast paced world.
>
> On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
>> Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find 
>> some great news:
>>
>> Message To Our Community
>> Posted on 01/7/22
>>
>> Dear Friends and Customers:
>>
>> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement 
>> in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>>
>> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to 
>> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as 
>> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill 
>> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for 
>> synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it 
>> organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>>
>> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will 
>> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, including 
>> makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>>
>> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and 
>> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and 
>> DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and 
>> competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a 
>> particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.
>>
>> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>>
>> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>>
>> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>>
>>
>> Rejoice!
>>
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 10 20:37:56 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:37:56 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>

It's impressive that these small suppliers can survive against the onslaught of Mouser, Premier et al.  I've never bought from them as I don't do analogue synths and I'm in the UK, but I do wish them good luck.   I did want to buy a Fatar keybed from Synthcube and they did try hard to come up with a solution but in the end the myriad of VAT laws here defeated them.  



-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy
Sent: 10 January 2022 19:26
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear

Nice!

I've bought from Small Bear since Steve started it. I'm hoping synthCube will be here for the long haul. The waters are so rough and unpredictable.

- Oren

On 1/10/22 4:07 AM, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy wrote:
> This is fantastic news!
> Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube 
> seem to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep 
> niche things going in this fast paced world.
>
> On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
>> Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find 
>> some great news:
>>
>> Message To Our Community
>> Posted on 01/7/22
>>
>> Dear Friends and Customers:
>>
>> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement 
>> in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>>
>> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to 
>> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as 
>> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill 
>> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for 
>> synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it 
>> organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>>
>> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will 
>> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, including 
>> makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>>
>> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and 
>> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and 
>> DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and 
>> competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a 
>> particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.
>>
>> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>>
>> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>>
>> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>>
>>
>> Rejoice!
>>
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Mon Jan 10 20:45:52 2022
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:45:52 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>

Buying bits from Small Bear to UK was always very straight forward, even 
in (small-scale) production quantities - though there were only a few 
lines I used them for.
Sent with USPS, sometimes I was hit for import VAT but nothing untoward.

On 10/01/2022 19:37, Mike Bryant wrote:
> It's impressive that these small suppliers can survive against the onslaught of Mouser, Premier et al.  I've never bought from them as I don't do analogue synths and I'm in the UK, but I do wish them good luck.   I did want to buy a Fatar keybed from Synthcube and they did try hard to come up with a solution but in the end the myriad of VAT laws here defeated them.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:26
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
>
> Nice!
>
> I've bought from Small Bear since Steve started it. I'm hoping synthCube will be here for the long haul. The waters are so rough and unpredictable.
>
> - Oren
>
> On 1/10/22 4:07 AM, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy wrote:
>> This is fantastic news!
>> Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube
>> seem to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep
>> niche things going in this fast paced world.
>>
>> On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
>>> Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find
>>> some great news:
>>>
>>> Message To Our Community
>>> Posted on 01/7/22
>>>
>>> Dear Friends and Customers:
>>>
>>> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement
>>> in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>>>
>>> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to
>>> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as
>>> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill
>>> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for
>>> synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it
>>> organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>>>
>>> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will
>>> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, including
>>> makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>>>
>>> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and
>>> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and
>>> DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and
>>> competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a
>>> particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.
>>>
>>> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>>>
>>> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>>>
>>> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>>>
>>>
>>> Rejoice!
>>>
>>>
>>> Todd
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From igg.debus at gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 20:56:16 2022
From: igg.debus at gmail.com (Ingo Debus)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:56:16 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>



> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
> 
> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
> Which also has a Dream chip in it.

Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 10 21:02:27 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:02:27 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>


Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in advance it just gets binned at customs.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Tom Bugs via Synth-diy
Sent: 10 January 2022 19:46
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear

Buying bits from Small Bear to UK was always very straight forward, even in (small-scale) production quantities - though there were only a few lines I used them for.
Sent with USPS, sometimes I was hit for import VAT but nothing untoward.

On 10/01/2022 19:37, Mike Bryant wrote:
> It's impressive that these small suppliers can survive against the onslaught of Mouser, Premier et al.  I've never bought from them as I don't do analogue synths and I'm in the UK, but I do wish them good luck.   I did want to buy a Fatar keybed from Synthcube and they did try hard to come up with a solution but in the end the myriad of VAT laws here defeated them.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:26
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
>
> Nice!
>
> I've bought from Small Bear since Steve started it. I'm hoping synthCube will be here for the long haul. The waters are so rough and unpredictable.
>
> - Oren
>
> On 1/10/22 4:07 AM, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy wrote:
>> This is fantastic news!
>> Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube 
>> seem to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep 
>> niche things going in this fast paced world.
>>
>> On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
>>> Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find 
>>> some great news:
>>>
>>> Message To Our Community
>>> Posted on 01/7/22
>>>
>>> Dear Friends and Customers:
>>>
>>> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement 
>>> in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>>>
>>> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to 
>>> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as 
>>> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill 
>>> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for 
>>> synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it 
>>> organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>>>
>>> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will 
>>> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, 
>>> including makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>>>
>>> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and 
>>> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and 
>>> DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and 
>>> competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a 
>>> particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.
>>>
>>> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>>>
>>> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>>>
>>> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>>>
>>>
>>> Rejoice!
>>>
>>>
>>> Todd
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

--
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 10 21:03:53 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:03:53 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>

Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be from about 10 to 15 nodes back.


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Debus via Synth-diy
Sent: 10 January 2022 19:56
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module




Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>:

I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
Which also has a Dream chip in it.

Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
[cid:image001.jpg at 01D8065D.31DAFCF0]
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From tom at electricdruid.net  Mon Jan 10 21:14:57 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:14:57 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] UK VAT (was Re: Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small
 Bear)
In-Reply-To: <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <31C8B198-15B5-4F3A-9D80-BA603DDD157D@electricdruid.net>

That hasn't been my experience. I've been sending stuff to the UK for a year since Brexit, and so far, no-one has reported either being hit by VAT charges or things disappearing. It looks to me like UK customs are waving stuff through to prevent accusations of problems at the border due to Brexit. There's a government in charge who really wants this to work, and wants it to be seen to be working.

Ultimately, I'm sure Electric Druid will have to register for UK VAT and do the required hoop-jumping to send parcels to the UK, but I'm holding out as long as I can, since it's a pain in the ass and another overhead I can well do without. Other International orders simply charge VAT at the frontier if required - the UK can do the same. My opinion is that the reluctance to do this stems from the fact that it makes it obvious that this is a cost applied by the UK government and therefore not something they can blame on Europe.

> On 10 Jan 2022, at 20:02, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in advance it just gets binned at customs.



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Mon Jan 10 21:21:38 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 12:21:38 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] UK VAT (was Re: Breaking news: synthCube to acquire
 Small Bear)
In-Reply-To: <31C8B198-15B5-4F3A-9D80-BA603DDD157D@electricdruid.net>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
 <31C8B198-15B5-4F3A-9D80-BA603DDD157D@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <19FBD162AC7F42E1B59EED14945C78A0@david78c70950b>

I've been sending Freak Shifts and other handmade modules to the UK for a
year or more, with no issues whatsoever.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Tom
Wiltshire
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 12:15 PM
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: [sdiy] UK VAT (was Re: Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small
Bear)

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

That hasn't been my experience. I've been sending stuff to the UK for a year
since Brexit, and so far, no-one has reported either being hit by VAT
charges or things disappearing. It looks to me like UK customs are waving
stuff through to prevent accusations of problems at the border due to
Brexit. There's a government in charge who really wants this to work, and
wants it to be seen to be working.

Ultimately, I'm sure Electric Druid will have to register for UK VAT and do
the required hoop-jumping to send parcels to the UK, but I'm holding out as
long as I can, since it's a pain in the ass and another overhead I can well
do without. Other International orders simply charge VAT at the frontier if
required - the UK can do the same. My opinion is that the reluctance to do
this stems from the fact that it makes it obvious that this is a cost
applied by the UK government and therefore not something they can blame on
Europe.

> On 10 Jan 2022, at 20:02, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small
quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've
registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in
advance it just gets binned at customs.

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 10 21:22:33 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:22:33 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] UK VAT (was Re: Breaking news: synthCube to acquire
 Small Bear)
In-Reply-To: <31C8B198-15B5-4F3A-9D80-BA603DDD157D@electricdruid.net>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
 <31C8B198-15B5-4F3A-9D80-BA603DDD157D@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <bfdfed5806884511a7cd0968bc842714@futurehorizons.com>

It's the same EU directive so nothing to do with Brexit.  It was in motion long before 2020 and just happened to coincide.  The other EU countries are slowly introducing the same rules as per the directive.  The problem has more been that the UK was prohibited from joining the OSS scheme because of Brexit so had to do its own thing.  So you need one registration for the UK and one for the EU.

I know some Chinese suppliers have just given up dealing with the UK and Europe because of it, notably my mid-range ADC/DAC supplier.



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Wiltshire [mailto:tom at electricdruid.net] 
Sent: 10 January 2022 20:15
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Tom Bugs; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: UK VAT (was Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear)

That hasn't been my experience. I've been sending stuff to the UK for a year since Brexit, and so far, no-one has reported either being hit by VAT charges or things disappearing. It looks to me like UK customs are waving stuff through to prevent accusations of problems at the border due to Brexit. There's a government in charge who really wants this to work, and wants it to be seen to be working.

Ultimately, I'm sure Electric Druid will have to register for UK VAT and do the required hoop-jumping to send parcels to the UK, but I'm holding out as long as I can, since it's a pain in the ass and another overhead I can well do without. Other International orders simply charge VAT at the frontier if required - the UK can do the same. My opinion is that the reluctance to do this stems from the fact that it makes it obvious that this is a cost applied by the UK government and therefore not something they can blame on Europe.

> On 10 Jan 2022, at 20:02, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in advance it just gets binned at customs.




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 10 21:32:15 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 20:32:15 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] UK VAT (was Re: Breaking news: synthCube to acquire
 Small Bear)
In-Reply-To: <19FBD162AC7F42E1B59EED14945C78A0@david78c70950b>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
 <31C8B198-15B5-4F3A-9D80-BA603DDD157D@electricdruid.net>
 <19FBD162AC7F42E1B59EED14945C78A0@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <af4dabc089b145279ca060cff2f8c943@futurehorizons.com>

I think you both may have been lucky so far.  

I applied to the relevant ministry for an exemption from the import charges because I don't sell finished product, just IP, and it was made quite clear that that means by their rules I'm not actually even trading and so I have to pay full VAT and tax on all the prototype loaded PCBs I import from China.  Bit pissed off at being classified as "not currently a commercial entity" given the amount of tax they charge me each year on my IP licencing income !!



COMMERCIAL SAMPLES

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pay-no-import-duty-and-vat-on-importing-commercial-samples 

 On checking the notice I would draw your attention to the section "Who can get relief".  As xxxxxxx Limited is not currently a commercial entity within the UK, then they would not qualify.




-----Original Message-----
From: David G Dixon [mailto:dixon at mail.ubc.ca] 
Sent: 10 January 2022 20:22
To: 'Tom Wiltshire'; Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: RE: [sdiy] UK VAT (was Re: Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear)

I've been sending Freak Shifts and other handmade modules to the UK for a year or more, with no issues whatsoever.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Tom Wiltshire
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 12:15 PM
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: [sdiy] UK VAT (was Re: Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small
Bear)

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

That hasn't been my experience. I've been sending stuff to the UK for a year since Brexit, and so far, no-one has reported either being hit by VAT charges or things disappearing. It looks to me like UK customs are waving stuff through to prevent accusations of problems at the border due to Brexit. There's a government in charge who really wants this to work, and wants it to be seen to be working.

Ultimately, I'm sure Electric Druid will have to register for UK VAT and do the required hoop-jumping to send parcels to the UK, but I'm holding out as long as I can, since it's a pain in the ass and another overhead I can well do without. Other International orders simply charge VAT at the frontier if required - the UK can do the same. My opinion is that the reluctance to do this stems from the fact that it makes it obvious that this is a cost applied by the UK government and therefore not something they can blame on Europe.

> On 10 Jan 2022, at 20:02, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small
quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in advance it just gets binned at customs.

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org





From raphschwarz at gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 21:57:27 2022
From: raphschwarz at gmail.com (Schwarz Raphael)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 21:57:27 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] UK VAT (was Re: Breaking news: synthCube to acquire
 Small Bear)
In-Reply-To: <31C8B198-15B5-4F3A-9D80-BA603DDD157D@electricdruid.net>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
 <31C8B198-15B5-4F3A-9D80-BA603DDD157D@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <B7FAEAF5-64FA-476D-94E4-3FAB833B2A84@gmail.com>

Hi there

I can clarify the situation with sending goods into the UK as I deal with that everyday.

Those laws were made for large companies and platforms it?s a tradeoff with the UK capacity to handle large shipping volumes

Everything has to do with the 135? good value threshold (excluding shipping)

- goods with a declared value above 135?

Works like anywhere in the world , VAT is paid by the buyer , you will be asked for VAT to get your parcel

- goods below 135? (that?s where the fun starts) : 

VAT is taken at the source, the seller has to pay for it.
If you work with a large platform like Ebay, they will do that for you
Some platforms ask you to include the VAT in your price (awful) other will add it on top (better)

But if you are selling directly to a customer , then you are supposed to collect it yourself and then pay it back to the UK
Which is totally crazy , they are asking the whole world to register for VAT in the UK.

So you are supposed, as a small foreign seller to deal with the UK administration (like we don?t already have our own)
This is mostly impossible for small companies (imagine if all countries did that ! we?d have hundreds of VAT declarations to do)

That?s when reality kicks in. Why did they do that ?

Simple : they can?t handle the volume (most shipments being low value they figured it would work if they shifted the workload on everyone else)

So what happens in reality : No one checks if you paid or not

If declared value is below 135? no one will ask a thing,  wether you paid VAT or not. 

So the trick is simple , always declare a value below 135??.

I hope that helps

Best,
Raphael


> Le 10 janv. 2022 ? 21:14, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> a ?crit :
> 
> That hasn't been my experience. I've been sending stuff to the UK for a year since Brexit, and so far, no-one has reported either being hit by VAT charges or things disappearing. It looks to me like UK customs are waving stuff through to prevent accusations of problems at the border due to Brexit. There's a government in charge who really wants this to work, and wants it to be seen to be working.
> 
> Ultimately, I'm sure Electric Druid will have to register for UK VAT and do the required hoop-jumping to send parcels to the UK, but I'm holding out as long as I can, since it's a pain in the ass and another overhead I can well do without. Other International orders simply charge VAT at the frontier if required - the UK can do the same. My opinion is that the reluctance to do this stems from the fact that it makes it obvious that this is a cost applied by the UK government and therefore not something they can blame on Europe.
> 
>> On 10 Jan 2022, at 20:02, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in advance it just gets binned at customs.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

-------------- next part --------------
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From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jan 10 22:14:29 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:14:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2b1e7d5-9ede-530c-8b76-40bc7f7f9650@go2.pl>

So this is how it looks like!
It was actually made by Classic Organ Works from Canada, as the 
silkscreen reveals.
What a coincident, I've known Organworks for about 20 years, they do 
stuff for pipe organs (basicaly a kind of my competitor) and I'm 
unofficial service tech for MalletKat in Poland, as every MalletKat 
owner somehow finds me like there's nobody else.
I've never seen the soundmodule inside KAT so far, but if this is it, 
basicaly a SoundCanvas, then no wonder nobody really wants them.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-10 o?20:56, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy pisze:
>
>
>> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha via Synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
>>
>> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
>> Which also has a Dream chip in it.
>
> Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jan 10 22:24:35 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:24:35 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <24ec7769-8fae-ca8f-074d-f3de0e4a8320@go2.pl>

In order to send anything to EU non-business customer, you have to pay 
VAT to the tax office in the country of this customer. Within EU it is 
somewhat organised that way, so in every country there's just one place 
to pay, so I don't have to make individual payments to every EU members, 
but only declare how much goes where, and pay it all together locally. I 
have no idea how it works if you send something from outside EU.
Basicaly what UK did with Brexit appeared so splendid idea to EU 
legislators, so half a year later they've invented this, which IMHO is 
even worse than Brexit. Actually my customers in UK are more lucky now 
than whole EU, because it's easier to send something to UK than within 
EU. So like many other small shops, since July 1st, I deal only with 
business customers in EU.

UK is easy, just make sure the stuff is worth more than 135UKP and ship 
it like it's 1990

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-10 o?21:02, Mike Bryant pisze:
> Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in advance it just gets binned at customs.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Tom Bugs via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:46
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
>
> Buying bits from Small Bear to UK was always very straight forward, even in (small-scale) production quantities - though there were only a few lines I used them for.
> Sent with USPS, sometimes I was hit for import VAT but nothing untoward.
>
> On 10/01/2022 19:37, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> It's impressive that these small suppliers can survive against the onslaught of Mouser, Premier et al.  I've never bought from them as I don't do analogue synths and I'm in the UK, but I do wish them good luck.   I did want to buy a Fatar keybed from Synthcube and they did try hard to come up with a solution but in the end the myriad of VAT laws here defeated them.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
>> Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:26
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
>>
>> Nice!
>>
>> I've bought from Small Bear since Steve started it. I'm hoping synthCube will be here for the long haul. The waters are so rough and unpredictable.
>>
>> - Oren
>>
>> On 1/10/22 4:07 AM, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy wrote:
>>> This is fantastic news!
>>> Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube
>>> seem to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep
>>> niche things going in this fast paced world.
>>>
>>> On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
>>>> Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find
>>>> some great news:
>>>>
>>>> Message To Our Community
>>>> Posted on 01/7/22
>>>>
>>>> Dear Friends and Customers:
>>>>
>>>> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement
>>>> in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>>>>
>>>> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to
>>>> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as
>>>> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill
>>>> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months for
>>>> synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get it
>>>> organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>>>>
>>>> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will
>>>> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts,
>>>> including makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>>>>
>>>> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and
>>>> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and
>>>> DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and
>>>> competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a
>>>> particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio DIY.
>>>>
>>>> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>>>>
>>>> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>>>>
>>>> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rejoice!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> --
> BugBrand LTD
> UK company No. 07199808
> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
> 1 Ninetree Hill
> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
> United Kingdom
> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Mon Jan 10 22:46:12 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 13:46:12 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <24ec7769-8fae-ca8f-074d-f3de0e4a8320@go2.pl>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
 <24ec7769-8fae-ca8f-074d-f3de0e4a8320@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <627C00A3CF1D4348AD01147965DF632C@david78c70950b>

The only issue that became a nuisance for me (with many customers in the EU
and the UK) is that, as of July 2021, the EU implemented a rule that the
recipient's telephone number had to be on the mailing label.  Hence, now I
have to make sure that all my European customers give me their phone
numbers.  The mail service I use here in Canada won't even let me complete
creating the mailing label until I have put in the telephone number, if the
address is in an EU country.

I've never had to pay, nor have I ever been asked to pay, VAT in any
country.  Of course, most of my shipments are US$300 or more in value, so
perhaps that is why. 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman
Sowa
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 1:25 PM
To: Mike Bryant; Tom Bugs
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

In order to send anything to EU non-business customer, you have to pay VAT
to the tax office in the country of this customer. Within EU it is somewhat
organised that way, so in every country there's just one place to pay, so I
don't have to make individual payments to every EU members, but only declare
how much goes where, and pay it all together locally. I have no idea how it
works if you send something from outside EU.
Basicaly what UK did with Brexit appeared so splendid idea to EU
legislators, so half a year later they've invented this, which IMHO is even
worse than Brexit. Actually my customers in UK are more lucky now than whole
EU, because it's easier to send something to UK than within EU. So like many
other small shops, since July 1st, I deal only with business customers in
EU.

UK is easy, just make sure the stuff is worth more than 135UKP and ship it
like it's 1990

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-10 o?21:02, Mike Bryant pisze:
> Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small
quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've
registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in
advance it just gets binned at customs.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Tom Bugs via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:46
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
>
> Buying bits from Small Bear to UK was always very straight forward, even
in (small-scale) production quantities - though there were only a few lines
I used them for.
> Sent with USPS, sometimes I was hit for import VAT but nothing untoward.
>
> On 10/01/2022 19:37, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> It's impressive that these small suppliers can survive against the
onslaught of Mouser, Premier et al.  I've never bought from them as I don't
do analogue synths and I'm in the UK, but I do wish them good luck.   I did
want to buy a Fatar keybed from Synthcube and they did try hard to come up
with a solution but in the end the myriad of VAT laws here defeated them.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:26
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
>>
>> Nice!
>>
>> I've bought from Small Bear since Steve started it. I'm hoping synthCube
will be here for the long haul. The waters are so rough and unpredictable.
>>
>> - Oren
>>
>> On 1/10/22 4:07 AM, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy wrote:
>>> This is fantastic news!
>>> Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube 
>>> seem to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep 
>>> niche things going in this fast paced world.
>>>
>>> On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
>>>> Opened one of my random ?must order before they close? tabs to find 
>>>> some great news:
>>>>
>>>> Message To Our Community
>>>> Posted on 01/7/22
>>>>
>>>> Dear Friends and Customers:
>>>>
>>>> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement 
>>>> in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>>>>
>>>> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to 
>>>> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as 
>>>> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill 
>>>> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months 
>>>> for synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get 
>>>> it organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>>>>
>>>> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will 
>>>> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, 
>>>> including makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>>>>
>>>> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and 
>>>> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and 
>>>> DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and 
>>>> competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a 
>>>> particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio
DIY.
>>>>
>>>> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>>>>
>>>> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>>>>
>>>> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rejoice!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> --
> BugBrand LTD
> UK company No. 07199808
> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
> 1 Ninetree Hill
> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
> United Kingdom
> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From grenert at gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 22:51:31 2022
From: grenert at gmail.com (grenert)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 13:51:31 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <c2b1e7d5-9ede-530c-8b76-40bc7f7f9650@go2.pl>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <c2b1e7d5-9ede-530c-8b76-40bc7f7f9650@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <CAGkoGzi+o8MDh3hnpfB1PgeVQq=ezVWUZ-uxDaaMPnUCBo1Z8w@mail.gmail.com>

There's a company that makes basic MIDI soundcards for obsolete interfaces
for vintage PC gaming, using the Dream chips:
https://www.serdashop.com/RetroSoundcards

Here's an example of one in action with an HP Palmtop (which is it's own
kind of wonderful obsoleteness and utility; I have a heavily upgraded one):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnBLijJ87EE
Quite a Rube Goldberg setup to connect everything...

-J. P.


On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 1:16 PM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:

> So this is how it looks like!
> It was actually made by Classic Organ Works from Canada, as the
> silkscreen reveals.
> What a coincident, I've known Organworks for about 20 years, they do
> stuff for pipe organs (basicaly a kind of my competitor) and I'm
> unofficial service tech for MalletKat in Poland, as every MalletKat
> owner somehow finds me like there's nobody else.
> I've never seen the soundmodule inside KAT so far, but if this is it,
> basicaly a SoundCanvas, then no wonder nobody really wants them.
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-01-10 o 20:56, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy pisze:
> >
> >
> >> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha via Synth-diy
> >> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
> >>
> >> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
> >> Which also has a Dream chip in it.
> >
> > Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 10 22:53:05 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 21:53:05 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
In-Reply-To: <627C00A3CF1D4348AD01147965DF632C@david78c70950b>
References: <A9B6C5EE-11A0-47D1-B8D0-BC0CF972B47A@scale.la>
 <0f71ffb7-b619-2e7a-7002-346b2acee65e@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <877ae9ff-909a-ce4a-864b-28c168359885@ix.netcom.com>
 <95881fdcadb148f29dcdd9e463402286@futurehorizons.com>
 <ab565c12-2ca8-003c-69f8-c46003aa8991@bugbrand.co.uk>
 <1306b8ea86044806b46881473201f614@futurehorizons.com>
 <24ec7769-8fae-ca8f-074d-f3de0e4a8320@go2.pl>
 <627C00A3CF1D4348AD01147965DF632C@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <98bcded74dd2462b890e346cc7870479@futurehorizons.com>

Which number is that for Italians ?   Their official business number, their black market number, the contact number their wife uses or their mistress's number ?  Only country I know that supports quad SIM phones :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: David G Dixon [mailto:dixon at mail.ubc.ca] 
Sent: 10 January 2022 21:46
To: 'Roman Sowa'; Mike Bryant; 'Tom Bugs'
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear

The only issue that became a nuisance for me (with many customers in the EU and the UK) is that, as of July 2021, the EU implemented a rule that the recipient's telephone number had to be on the mailing label.  Hence, now I have to make sure that all my European customers give me their phone numbers.  The mail service I use here in Canada won't even let me complete creating the mailing label until I have put in the telephone number, if the address is in an EU country.

I've never had to pay, nor have I ever been asked to pay, VAT in any country.  Of course, most of my shipments are US$300 or more in value, so perhaps that is why. 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 1:25 PM
To: Mike Bryant; Tom Bugs
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

In order to send anything to EU non-business customer, you have to pay VAT to the tax office in the country of this customer. Within EU it is somewhat organised that way, so in every country there's just one place to pay, so I don't have to make individual payments to every EU members, but only declare how much goes where, and pay it all together locally. I have no idea how it works if you send something from outside EU.
Basicaly what UK did with Brexit appeared so splendid idea to EU legislators, so half a year later they've invented this, which IMHO is even worse than Brexit. Actually my customers in UK are more lucky now than whole EU, because it's easier to send something to UK than within EU. So like many other small shops, since July 1st, I deal only with business customers in EU.

UK is easy, just make sure the stuff is worth more than 135UKP and ship it like it's 1990

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-10 o?21:02, Mike Bryant pisze:
> Was that before the latest regulations ?    They can't even send small
quantities of stuff to the UK or I think most of the EU now unless they've registered for VAT.  If it's under ?175 (?) and the VAT isn't paid in advance it just gets binned at customs.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Tom Bugs via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:46
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
>
> Buying bits from Small Bear to UK was always very straight forward, 
> even
in (small-scale) production quantities - though there were only a few lines I used them for.
> Sent with USPS, sometimes I was hit for import VAT but nothing untoward.
>
> On 10/01/2022 19:37, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> It's impressive that these small suppliers can survive against the
onslaught of Mouser, Premier et al.  I've never bought from them as I don't
do analogue synths and I'm in the UK, but I do wish them good luck.   I did
want to buy a Fatar keybed from Synthcube and they did try hard to come up with a solution but in the end the myriad of VAT laws here defeated them.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:26
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Breaking news: synthCube to acquire Small Bear
>>
>> Nice!
>>
>> I've bought from Small Bear since Steve started it. I'm hoping 
>> synthCube
will be here for the long haul. The waters are so rough and unpredictable.
>>
>> - Oren
>>
>> On 1/10/22 4:07 AM, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy wrote:
>>> This is fantastic news!
>>> Small Bear have been such a nice setup over the years and SynthCube 
>>> seem to be along these great lines too - they really strive to keep 
>>> niche things going in this fast paced world.
>>>
>>> On 08/01/2022 16:18, Todd Sines wrote:
>>>> Opened one of my random "must order before they close" tabs to find 
>>>> some great news:
>>>>
>>>> Message To Our Community
>>>> Posted on 01/7/22
>>>>
>>>> Dear Friends and Customers:
>>>>
>>>> Small Bear is excited to announce that we have reached an agreement 
>>>> in principle to be acquired by synthCube.
>>>>
>>>> Following a final agreement, Small Bear customers will be able to 
>>>> continue ordering directly from the Small Bear webstore, as soon as 
>>>> arrangements have been completed for synthCube to accept and fill 
>>>> those orders. Please note that it is likely to take a few months 
>>>> for synthCube to receive our remaining stock in Massachusetts, get 
>>>> it organized on their premises and re-stock depleted items.
>>>>
>>>> We expect that the combination of Small Bear and synthCube will 
>>>> provide expanded parts selection for DIY audio enthusiasts, 
>>>> including makers of stompboxes, modular synths, amps and more.
>>>>
>>>> The combined company will continue to serve both hobbyists and 
>>>> commercial accounts. Small to mid-size stompbox, modular synth and 
>>>> DIY audio companies will continue to find deep inventory and 
>>>> competitive prices for components purchased in bulk, with a 
>>>> particular focus on analog and digital components specific to audio
DIY.
>>>>
>>>> Please watch this space for updates as we build our partnership.
>>>>
>>>> Steve, Judy and the Small Bear Team
>>>>
>>>> https://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/update/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rejoice!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> --
> BugBrand LTD
> UK company No. 07199808
> VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
> 1 Ninetree Hill
> BRISTOL BS1 3SB
> United Kingdom
> www.bugbrand.co.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org





From cheater00social at gmail.com  Mon Jan 10 23:18:05 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 23:18:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Support for my synth circuit lecture videos
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3G-kygvAe-6i9vzhWP4fFt8H2SVrbBEvoufrnx8-aQ4gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45052243-D6E5-4AAE-9458-1C7FE44D7BA0@ece.gatech.edu>
 <CADpm=3G-kygvAe-6i9vzhWP4fFt8H2SVrbBEvoufrnx8-aQ4gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_zASCwJ1o7b7RjM5657gOptPjyL_BHPYcEbmXs3xmAEw@mail.gmail.com>

https://mygeorgiatech.gatech.edu/giving/make-a-gift

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 8:58 PM Chromatest J. Pantsmaker
<chromatest at azburners.org> wrote:
>
> I don't feel like watching the video.  Can you post a link to the donation page?
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 4:02 AM Lanterman, Aaron D via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Dear DIYers,
>>
>> I hope it isn?t out of line for me to post this here...
>>
>> Over a decade ago, I put some rough recordings of lectures from my music synthesis class and posted them on blip.tv. That service went away, but some kind folks archived and reuploaded those videos (which was very useful since I lost the original files). Partially inspired by the enthusiastic response those old videos received, when Covid hit, I redid all my lectures in a more polished format and put them on YouTube:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOunECWxELQS5bMdWo9VhmZtsCjhjYNcV
>>
>> Over the years people who have found benefit from my lecture videos have occasionally asked if I had a Patreon or similar service they could contribute to. Since the videos were created as part of my job at Georgia Tech for which I?m paid by Georgia Tech, ethically I can?t really set up something like that which would put money directly in my bank account.
>>
>> But, I worked out a deal with the Powers that Be at Tech such that people could make a *targeted* donation to the Georgia Tech Foundation earmarked to support my work with my students. Instructions are given here: https://youtu.be/VBu-LST1p9c
>>
>> In particular, it's important that Lantertronics/GTF210000920 goes the ?special purpose? field so your donation doesn?t go to building another football stadium or something like that. ;)
>>
>> (Some year ago I worked out something similar, but it required people to mail a paper check. Now you can type in a credit card number.)
>>
>> This goes a long way towards helping me show my fellow faculty, in particularly my superiors, that there is a hunger for this kind of material.
>>
>> And it?s tax deductible. :)
>>
>> Aaron Lanterman, Prof. of ECE, Georgia Tech
>> My blog on Education and Innovation: https://edupocalypsenow.wordpress.com
>> My blog on Electronics and Programming: https://lantertronics.blogspot.com
>> My YouTube channel on Electronics and Programming: https://www.youtube.com/c/lantertronics
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Mon Jan 10 23:19:14 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:19:14 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>

Sure, FPGA can be used to recreate all manner of CPU and sample player designs. However, the FPGA will not be as energy efficient as an ASIC. This might not be an issue unless you want to run on batteries. FPGA has an advantage for prototyping, or for designs that absolutely must be changed in the field, but for something as well-understood and popular as sample playback, ASIC designs are superior. In other words, there's nothing inferior about an "old" ASIC design, nor is there anything superior about FPGA emulations of the same.

Brian


On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:03, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be from about 10 to 15 nodes back.
> 
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Debus via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:56
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
> 
> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha:
>  
> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
> Which also has a Dream chip in it.
>  
> Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
> <image001.jpg>




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 10 23:54:18 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:54:18 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
 <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <028b3c32657647f9b9ed0ecfae69868d@futurehorizons.com>

Agreed.  But as these devices are unobtainable unless you're a major player, an FPGA emulation would appear the only option.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com] 
Sent: 10 January 2022 22:19
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module

Sure, FPGA can be used to recreate all manner of CPU and sample player designs. However, the FPGA will not be as energy efficient as an ASIC. This might not be an issue unless you want to run on batteries. FPGA has an advantage for prototyping, or for designs that absolutely must be changed in the field, but for something as well-understood and popular as sample playback, ASIC designs are superior. In other words, there's nothing inferior about an "old" ASIC design, nor is there anything superior about FPGA emulations of the same.

Brian


On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:03, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be from about 10 to 15 nodes back.
> 
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Ingo Debus via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 January 2022 19:56
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander 
> IC/module
> 
> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha:
>  
> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys, Which 
> also has a Dream chip in it.
>  
> Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
> <image001.jpg>





From cheater00social at gmail.com  Tue Jan 11 00:11:36 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 00:11:36 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
 <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--K6Xhn6YbDQ_DSGTVUwths=HGk2OB4CesBKD2XJekm9Q@mail.gmail.com>

That's not true, FPGA are very energy efficient, to the point where
the screen of a device takes an order of magnitude more power. Case in
point, the Analogue Pocket. When I was convincing the makers of it
several years ago that they should create a handheld console, the
"power efficiency" argument was brought up by someone else, but the
hardware designer was quick to point out that FPGAs are actually very
power efficient. They said no for several years, then they announced
on their website that they came up with a new idea, which is a
handheld console.

The Analogue Pocket can "save the state" of something like a Gameboy
game by simply turning off the screen and slowing down its chip. Then
it'll be in standby for a very long time... I forget the exact specs.

Anyways it's not like "battery powered" is the first thing you think
about when buying a synthesizer, but still, FPGAs being power hungry
is some sort of weird myth that just keeps on cropping up. I've
personally never seen FPGA dev boards that need a beefy power supply,
but I'm sure people will come up with an example or two.

In the end as I understand it the dissipated power of a chip depends
mostly on the voltage it runs at, the size of the substrate, and the
semiconductor process which defines the substrate resistivity. And I
bet you many current FPGAs run at a lower voltage, are smaller, and
have a more modern process.


On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 11:21 PM Brian Willoughby
<brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
>
> Sure, FPGA can be used to recreate all manner of CPU and sample player designs. However, the FPGA will not be as energy efficient as an ASIC. This might not be an issue unless you want to run on batteries. FPGA has an advantage for prototyping, or for designs that absolutely must be changed in the field, but for something as well-understood and popular as sample playback, ASIC designs are superior. In other words, there's nothing inferior about an "old" ASIC design, nor is there anything superior about FPGA emulations of the same.
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:03, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be from about 10 to 15 nodes back.
> >
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Debus via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 10 January 2022 19:56
> > To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
> >
> > Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha:
> >
> > I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
> > Which also has a Dream chip in it.
> >
> > Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
> > <image001.jpg>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From maohelin at gmail.com  Tue Jan 11 00:13:41 2022
From: maohelin at gmail.com (Mikko Helin)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 01:13:41 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <028b3c32657647f9b9ed0ecfae69868d@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
 <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
 <028b3c32657647f9b9ed0ecfae69868d@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ5nAj5NRaADQ6bS_z-gqoXvXTnt5fASmef2CxKDP+CaHA6fyA@mail.gmail.com>

You can find many Dream chips on Aliexpress, also the smallest GM rompler,
sam2695.

ti 11. tammik. 2022 klo 0.57 Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
kirjoitti:

> Agreed.  But as these devices are unobtainable unless you're a major
> player, an FPGA emulation would appear the only option.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com]
> Sent: 10 January 2022 22:19
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
>
> Sure, FPGA can be used to recreate all manner of CPU and sample player
> designs. However, the FPGA will not be as energy efficient as an ASIC. This
> might not be an issue unless you want to run on batteries. FPGA has an
> advantage for prototyping, or for designs that absolutely must be changed
> in the field, but for something as well-understood and popular as sample
> playback, ASIC designs are superior. In other words, there's nothing
> inferior about an "old" ASIC design, nor is there anything superior about
> FPGA emulations of the same.
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:03, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using
> an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be
> from about 10 to 15 nodes back.
> >
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> > Ingo Debus via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 10 January 2022 19:56
> > To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander
> > IC/module
> >
> > Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha:
> >
> > I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys, Which
> > also has a Dream chip in it.
> >
> > Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
> > <image001.jpg>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Tue Jan 11 00:15:34 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 15:15:34 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <028b3c32657647f9b9ed0ecfae69868d@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
 <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
 <028b3c32657647f9b9ed0ecfae69868d@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <1213B51A-C59D-4DDD-B946-0FECF82ADA94@audiobanshee.com>

There are other options besides DReam. There used to be Ensoniq chips, but I suppose those are out of production. Seems like there would be others, but I doubt anyone has better features than Ensoniq, given their long experience with synthesis.

Has nobody released an ARM-based ROMpler? A decent ARM chip with synchronous serial port(s) for the DAC, DMA to streamline the audio buffer playback, external DRAM interface or even just ROM memory, plus some simple DSP support for mixing ... that should be all you need. An ARM solution might be a lot quicker than an FPGA solution (and you'd still probably need memory and certainly a DAC).

Brian


On Jan 10, 2022, at 14:54, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Agreed.  But as these devices are unobtainable unless you're a major player, an FPGA emulation would appear the only option.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Willoughby 
> 
> Sure, FPGA can be used to recreate all manner of CPU and sample player designs. However, the FPGA will not be as energy efficient as an ASIC. This might not be an issue unless you want to run on batteries. FPGA has an advantage for prototyping, or for designs that absolutely must be changed in the field, but for something as well-understood and popular as sample playback, ASIC designs are superior. In other words, there's nothing inferior about an "old" ASIC design, nor is there anything superior about FPGA emulations of the same.
> 
> Brian
> 
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:03, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be from about 10 to 15 nodes back.
>> 
>> From:Ingo Debus
>> 
>> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha:
>> 
>> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys, Which 
>> also has a Dream chip in it.
>> 
>> Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
>> <image001.jpg>
> 
> 




From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Tue Jan 11 00:18:35 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 16:18:35 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58ecc272-aa7a-fb60-1cc2-3d076a1fbed1@gmail.com>


On 1/10/22 12:56, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha via Synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>:
>>
>> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
>> Which also has a Dream chip in it.
> 
> Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:

They're also inside the Akai MPK Mini Play from just a few years back:
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From jrblndr at gmail.com  Tue Jan 11 00:59:00 2022
From: jrblndr at gmail.com (Blender)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 00:59:00 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <58ecc272-aa7a-fb60-1cc2-3d076a1fbed1@gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <58ecc272-aa7a-fb60-1cc2-3d076a1fbed1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA+zC9PkPydKjSk4Shq_9kBMgwtdn7TiysNhDdvbnyuLH5KY_g@mail.gmail.com>

Very interesting replies, thanks again guys!!

I agree there are several other options to achieve what the SAM chips can
do, it just seemed like a nice convenient option with fast, possibly big
memory. And i liked the thought of re-using somewhat old chips/technology
in a new DIY context.

I would think at least for my purposes an ESP32 or teensy solution would be
the easiest alternative, and they should be plenty fast enough for the
rather simple sampling engine that i need. While the SAM chips basically
supply a kind of full fledged Wavetable-Synth-Engine, i really only want
simple sample playback/repitching. I don't really have a clue about RAM
speeds/platforms/buses etc but to simply play back lets say up to 8
simultaneous voices, the above mentioned ESP32 base WVR board with 8GB
onboard flash memory should be fast enough. I managed to do the same even
on a rather outdated axoloti.com board, streaming from SD-Card...

But yeah, it would be great if someone could come up with a faster low
level implementation on an ARM/teensy based board with plenty of fast RAM
as Brian suggested. I agree that an FPGA is not the right solution for this
application, , as interesting as the tech is. Especially for a
simple-minded MCU person as I am.

FWIW, i also finally received a response from DREAM themselves, where they
kindly pointed me towards serdashop as well, and confirming that supplying
end-customers or DIY people is beyond their workload capacities ATM.

Oh and also this mod-wiggler user called ixtern built a prototype for a
Dreamblaster-based standalone instrument as well, i am talking to him as
well:
https://www.modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=257544

Best,
Philip



On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 12:22 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

>
> On 1/10/22 12:56, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha via Synth-diy
> >> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>:
> >>
> >> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
> >> Which also has a Dream chip in it.
> >
> > Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
>
> They're also inside the Akai MPK Mini Play from just a few years back:
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From eidorian at aladan.net  Tue Jan 11 01:08:48 2022
From: eidorian at aladan.net (Adrian Corston)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 10:38:48 +1030
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
 (Tsunami Super WAV ARM M7 module)
In-Reply-To: <CAA+zC9PkPydKjSk4Shq_9kBMgwtdn7TiysNhDdvbnyuLH5KY_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <58ecc272-aa7a-fb60-1cc2-3d076a1fbed1@gmail.com>
 <CAA+zC9PkPydKjSk4Shq_9kBMgwtdn7TiysNhDdvbnyuLH5KY_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <536aacdf-e598-47ec-952f-d9f3a7aaf12f@aladan.net>

Sorry to be coming in late on this one but a good friend of mine built 
an entire poly-synth around this readily-available ARM M7-based sample 
playback module: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/18159

His synth is pretty neat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYeXDhLF1S8

Cheers,
A.


On 11/01/2022 10:29 am, Blender via Synth-diy wrote:
> Very interesting replies, thanks again guys!!
>
> I agree there are several other options to achieve what the SAM chips 
> can do, it just seemed like a nice convenient option with fast, 
> possibly big memory. And i liked the thought of re-using somewhat old 
> chips/technology in a new DIY context.
>
> I would think at least for my purposes an ESP32 or teensy solution 
> would be the easiest alternative, and they should be plenty fast 
> enough for the rather simple sampling engine that i need. While the 
> SAM chips basically supply a kind of full fledged 
> Wavetable-Synth-Engine, i really only want simple sample 
> playback/repitching. I don't really have a clue about RAM 
> speeds/platforms/buses etc but to simply play back lets say up to 8 
> simultaneous voices, the above mentioned ESP32 base WVR board with 8GB 
> onboard flash memory should be fast enough. I managed to do the same 
> even on a rather outdated axoloti.com <http://axoloti.com> board, 
> streaming from SD-Card...
>
> But yeah, it would be great if someone could come up with a faster low 
> level implementation on an ARM/teensy based board with plenty of fast 
> RAM as Brian suggested. I agree that an FPGA is not the right solution 
> for this application, , as interesting as the tech is. Especially for 
> a simple-minded MCU person as I am.
>
> FWIW, i also finally received a response from DREAM themselves, where 
> they kindly pointed me towards serdashop as well, and confirming that 
> supplying end-customers or DIY people is beyond their workload 
> capacities ATM.
>
> Oh and also this mod-wiggler user called ixtern built a prototype for 
> a Dreamblaster-based standalone instrument as well, i am talking to 
> him as well:
> https://www.modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=257544
>
> Best,
> Philip
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 12:22 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy 
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>
>     On 1/10/22 12:56, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     >> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha via Synth-diy
>     >> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>:
>     >>
>     >> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys,
>     >> Which also has a Dream chip in it.
>     >
>     > Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
>
>     They're also inside the Akai MPK Mini Play from just a few years back:
>     _______________________________________________
>     Synth-diy mailing list
>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Usemarketplace at synth-diy.org
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Tue Jan 11 23:24:31 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 23:24:31 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <1213B51A-C59D-4DDD-B946-0FECF82ADA94@audiobanshee.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
 <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
 <028b3c32657647f9b9ed0ecfae69868d@futurehorizons.com>
 <1213B51A-C59D-4DDD-B946-0FECF82ADA94@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8K+RTWuEnsLc6_rihSxzTHSL918zEMdSF=aNmyaNDHQA@mail.gmail.com>

I agree, Arm is a better platform for a sampler than an FPGA, unless
maybe you're doing something that requires the tiniest latency, like
processing incoming audio via a waveshaper, or some special version of
FM, or something like that.


On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 12:18 AM Brian Willoughby
<brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
>
> There are other options besides DReam. There used to be Ensoniq chips, but I suppose those are out of production. Seems like there would be others, but I doubt anyone has better features than Ensoniq, given their long experience with synthesis.
>
> Has nobody released an ARM-based ROMpler? A decent ARM chip with synchronous serial port(s) for the DAC, DMA to streamline the audio buffer playback, external DRAM interface or even just ROM memory, plus some simple DSP support for mixing ... that should be all you need. An ARM solution might be a lot quicker than an FPGA solution (and you'd still probably need memory and certainly a DAC).
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 14:54, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > Agreed.  But as these devices are unobtainable unless you're a major player, an FPGA emulation would appear the only option.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Willoughby
> >
> > Sure, FPGA can be used to recreate all manner of CPU and sample player designs. However, the FPGA will not be as energy efficient as an ASIC. This might not be an issue unless you want to run on batteries. FPGA has an advantage for prototyping, or for designs that absolutely must be changed in the field, but for something as well-understood and popular as sample playback, ASIC designs are superior. In other words, there's nothing inferior about an "old" ASIC design, nor is there anything superior about FPGA emulations of the same.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:03, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >> Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be from about 10 to 15 nodes back.
> >>
> >> From:Ingo Debus
> >>
> >> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha:
> >>
> >> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys, Which
> >> also has a Dream chip in it.
> >>
> >> Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
> >> <image001.jpg>
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Wed Jan 12 00:02:13 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 23:02:13 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8K+RTWuEnsLc6_rihSxzTHSL918zEMdSF=aNmyaNDHQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
 <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
 <028b3c32657647f9b9ed0ecfae69868d@futurehorizons.com>
 <1213B51A-C59D-4DDD-B946-0FECF82ADA94@audiobanshee.com>
 <CAGn5V-8K+RTWuEnsLc6_rihSxzTHSL918zEMdSF=aNmyaNDHQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13924e20c878450cae7e39edba102f4d@futurehorizons.com>


I was thinking more of a drop-in replacement for the Dream chips.  They wouldn't be pin-compatible but functionally the same.  An ARM might even be better, but probably wouldn't operate the same.

-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 11 January 2022 22:25
To: Brian Willoughby
Cc: Mike Bryant; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module

I agree, Arm is a better platform for a sampler than an FPGA, unless maybe you're doing something that requires the tiniest latency, like processing incoming audio via a waveshaper, or some special version of FM, or something like that.


On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 12:18 AM Brian Willoughby <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
>
> There are other options besides DReam. There used to be Ensoniq chips, but I suppose those are out of production. Seems like there would be others, but I doubt anyone has better features than Ensoniq, given their long experience with synthesis.
>
> Has nobody released an ARM-based ROMpler? A decent ARM chip with synchronous serial port(s) for the DAC, DMA to streamline the audio buffer playback, external DRAM interface or even just ROM memory, plus some simple DSP support for mixing ... that should be all you need. An ARM solution might be a lot quicker than an FPGA solution (and you'd still probably need memory and certainly a DAC).
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 14:54, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > Agreed.  But as these devices are unobtainable unless you're a major player, an FPGA emulation would appear the only option.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Willoughby
> >
> > Sure, FPGA can be used to recreate all manner of CPU and sample player designs. However, the FPGA will not be as energy efficient as an ASIC. This might not be an issue unless you want to run on batteries. FPGA has an advantage for prototyping, or for designs that absolutely must be changed in the field, but for something as well-understood and popular as sample playback, ASIC designs are superior. In other words, there's nothing inferior about an "old" ASIC design, nor is there anything superior about FPGA emulations of the same.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:03, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >> Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be from about 10 to 15 nodes back.
> >>
> >> From:Ingo Debus
> >>
> >> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha:
> >>
> >> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys, Which 
> >> also has a Dream chip in it.
> >>
> >> Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
> >> <image001.jpg>
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Wed Jan 12 01:18:59 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:18:59 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8K+RTWuEnsLc6_rihSxzTHSL918zEMdSF=aNmyaNDHQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <670e06c0863d4ae4b5d98b7c894b2c87@futurehorizons.com>
 <7F1A5B84-E7D3-4E75-B193-D75264C90CEA@audiobanshee.com>
 <028b3c32657647f9b9ed0ecfae69868d@futurehorizons.com>
 <1213B51A-C59D-4DDD-B946-0FECF82ADA94@audiobanshee.com>
 <CAGn5V-8K+RTWuEnsLc6_rihSxzTHSL918zEMdSF=aNmyaNDHQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CCF80539-4585-4521-91E7-F4CFDEE9F6F6@audiobanshee.com>

In that case - low latency wave shaping - I'd still choose a DSP over an FPGA. Especially since the DSP could stream from an ADC directly into memory, and then out to a DAC, both by synchronous serial digital audio. You could either design for 1-sample latency, or if the load is heavier then a 16-sample buffer.

Granted, you can find an FPGA with any kind of interface that you need, or create one from standard IP, but the Digital Signal Processor has been evolving for several decades to hold exactly what is needed for these sorts of challenges, without having to piece everything together the hard way. Something like the TMS320 or SHARC has everything you need, streamlined for maximum utility.

When you open up something like the Nord Stage, you'll see 5 DSP chips in there. Probably each one focuses on a different type of synthesis.

Brian


On Jan 11, 2022, at 14:24, cheater cheater wrote:
> I agree, Arm is a better platform for a sampler than an FPGA, unless
> maybe you're doing something that requires the tiniest latency, like
> processing incoming audio via a waveshaper, or some special version of
> FM, or something like that.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 12:18 AM Brian Willoughby wrote:
>> 
>> There are other options besides DReam. There used to be Ensoniq chips, but I suppose those are out of production. Seems like there would be others, but I doubt anyone has better features than Ensoniq, given their long experience with synthesis.
>> 
>> Has nobody released an ARM-based ROMpler? A decent ARM chip with synchronous serial port(s) for the DAC, DMA to streamline the audio buffer playback, external DRAM interface or even just ROM memory, plus some simple DSP support for mixing ... that should be all you need. An ARM solution might be a lot quicker than an FPGA solution (and you'd still probably need memory and certainly a DAC).
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> On Jan 10, 2022, at 14:54, Mike Bryant wrote:
>>> Agreed.  But as these devices are unobtainable unless you're a major player, an FPGA emulation would appear the only option.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Brian Willoughby
>>> 
>>> Sure, FPGA can be used to recreate all manner of CPU and sample player designs. However, the FPGA will not be as energy efficient as an ASIC. This might not be an issue unless you want to run on batteries. FPGA has an advantage for prototyping, or for designs that absolutely must be changed in the field, but for something as well-understood and popular as sample playback, ASIC designs are superior. In other words, there's nothing inferior about an "old" ASIC design, nor is there anything superior about FPGA emulations of the same.
>>> 
>>> Brian
>>> 
>>> On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:03, Mike Bryant wrote:
>>>> Couldn?t the functionality of some of these devices be recreated using an FPGA nowadays ?   Not volunteering to try but these chips seem to be from about 10 to 15 nodes back.
>>>> 
>>>> From:Ingo Debus
>>>> 
>>>> Am 10.01.2022 um 12:45 schrieb Loscha:
>>>> 
>>>> I have a General MIDI / Controller keyboard, the CME u-Keys, Which
>>>> also has a Dream chip in it.
>>>> 
>>>> Here?s a picture of a PCB from the MalletKat:
>>>> <image001.jpg>




From modular at go2.pl  Wed Jan 12 11:19:04 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 11:19:04 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
 (Tsunami Super WAV ARM M7 module)
In-Reply-To: <536aacdf-e598-47ec-952f-d9f3a7aaf12f@aladan.net>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <58ecc272-aa7a-fb60-1cc2-3d076a1fbed1@gmail.com>
 <CAA+zC9PkPydKjSk4Shq_9kBMgwtdn7TiysNhDdvbnyuLH5KY_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <536aacdf-e598-47ec-952f-d9f3a7aaf12f@aladan.net>
Message-ID: <689a19dc-1a2a-f98f-58ae-75afaaa870ce@go2.pl>

"pretty neat" is understatement.
It's interesting, refreshing, good looking and innovative.
Finally not yet another minimoog reincarnation.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-11 o?01:08, Adrian Corston pisze:
> Sorry to be coming in late on this one but a good friend of mine built 
> an entire poly-synth around this readily-available ARM M7-based sample 
> playback module: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/18159
> 
> His synth is pretty neat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYeXDhLF1S8
> 
> Cheers,
> A.
> 
> 


From info at synthcube.com  Wed Jan 12 13:17:22 2022
From: info at synthcube.com (info synthcube.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 12:17:22 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Looking for a specific sample-player/expander IC/module
 (Tsunami Super WAV ARM M7 module)
In-Reply-To: <689a19dc-1a2a-f98f-58ae-75afaaa870ce@go2.pl>
References: <CAA+zC9N76p2HXvRtmfEMEOXY5y+Nu2TmAQwwDzO+bHecF3NVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37423d71-f0bc-9a78-6a1a-cc113e2cd272@musictechnologiesgroup.com>
 <CAA+zC9NRqjVnbdq0pBW_ZJRPP9dPoWxZFROE6DgxPD8R7O7uDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8d4a1ce1-8f0d-eb64-8320-7f2fdfd604fa@go2.pl>
 <a0198e28-9529-7319-2d05-ef11ee4c3187@go2.pl>
 <687b275ab3cf47a48c88e4aa540f7aac@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA25cvf-duskDL6o11SHpKqBetxJ+Nw6Etw7CXCL_kVfFmvi0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9E71AF1F-39DC-4F1C-829A-C64BABA68E9D@gmail.com>
 <58ecc272-aa7a-fb60-1cc2-3d076a1fbed1@gmail.com>
 <CAA+zC9PkPydKjSk4Shq_9kBMgwtdn7TiysNhDdvbnyuLH5KY_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <536aacdf-e598-47ec-952f-d9f3a7aaf12f@aladan.net>
 <689a19dc-1a2a-f98f-58ae-75afaaa870ce@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <EFA06C87-0B32-4941-9910-B74E9A957838@synthcube.com>

Really enjoyed that video? what a great design. Found the shots of the inside especially fun? multiple stacks of PCBs and flying wires nicely organized ! Thanks for sharing the link. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
> 
> ?"pretty neat" is understatement.
> It's interesting, refreshing, good looking and innovative.
> Finally not yet another minimoog reincarnation.
> 
> Roman
> 
> W dniu 2022-01-11 o 01:08, Adrian Corston pisze:
>> Sorry to be coming in late on this one but a good friend of mine built an entire poly-synth around this readily-available ARM M7-based sample playback module: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/18159
>> His synth is pretty neat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYeXDhLF1S8
>> Cheers,
>> A.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan 13 17:20:33 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:20:33 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>

Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others
helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus
you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to
build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts
progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?

Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer
parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4
VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads
of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a
keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of
capacitors vs their rated voltage.

Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage
in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of
signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?

Thanks


From tom at electricdruid.net  Thu Jan 13 17:46:51 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:46:51 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EE724390-530E-4BEE-A600-6D27F2B1D6C4@electricdruid.net>

Errm, I think they call it "digital"!!

Seriously though - digital and processor core voltages have gone down for exactly the reasons you propose, and digital enables you to do that without taking a hit to S/N.


> On 13 Jan 2022, at 16:20, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
> better than just ramping up the voltage rails?

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From quincas at gmail.com  Thu Jan 13 17:59:08 2022
From: quincas at gmail.com (Quincas Moreira)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:59:08 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <EE724390-530E-4BEE-A600-6D27F2B1D6C4@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EE724390-530E-4BEE-A600-6D27F2B1D6C4@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CA+u0Jt=M+n2GdbezcBQ-UFHWwE5f0v0eiTTN3vaEcR_mDKYTaw@mail.gmail.com>

If you use a switching supply there is very little heat dissipation even at
12 or 15v. That said I don't think the higher voltage rails are so
important for SNR these days, plenty of good and quiet synth circuits can
be made using very low voltage opamps and such. I'm not an engineer myself,
others may have more specific details than I do.


On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:50 AM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net>
wrote:

> Errm, I think they call it "digital"!!
>
> Seriously though - digital and processor core voltages have gone down for
> exactly the reasons you propose, and digital enables you to do that without
> taking a hit to S/N.
>
>
> On 13 Jan 2022, at 16:20, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
> better than just ramping up the voltage rails?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


-- 
[image: QMA]

Quincas Moreira
Director | QMA
mobile:  5534988825
site:  quincasmoreira.com
email:  quincas at gmail.com
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 13 18:07:34 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:07:34 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>

Unfortunately noise creeps in as soon as you reduce the voltage.    However you can reduce the effect by reducing resistor values by more than the ratio of voltage reduction, but resistor noise still eventually wins.   And of course with smaller resistors you'll need larger capacitor values for time constants.   Techniques to look at to reduce problems further include using currents rather than voltages wherever possible.  Of course many synth circuits do use currents - the Moog ladder filter for example - but you'll need to work linearly rather than exponentially.

The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail op-amps, but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.   Also these opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input crossover distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices conducting.  Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always slightly there.  There are a few bipolar R2R opamps without this problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: 13 January 2022 16:21
To: synth-diy
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?

Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4 VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of capacitors vs their rated voltage.

Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?

Thanks
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 13 18:13:58 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:13:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>

1.5V rails might be slightly insane, but +/-3V why not.
Not to mention +/-5V, which is advertized in many opamp datasheets as 
"high voltage".
Synths rarely run signal hitting anywhere close to +/-15V rails, more 
like 5 to max 10Vpp. Scaling it down to 6Vpp in +/-3V system looks then 
like no change at all.

5V synth is actually one of my current obsessions so (forgive my 
blantant bragging) here are 2 examples:
this is powered from +/-3, but will happily run at +/-1.5V too:
https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko

and this runs down to 1.8V, although good performance starts at 2.1V:
http://sowa.synth.net/schem/vco8/

Roman


W dniu 2022-01-13 o?17:20, cheater cheater via Synth-diy pisze:
> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others
> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus
> you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to
> build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts
> progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
> 
> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer
> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4
> VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads
> of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a
> keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of
> capacitors vs their rated voltage.
> 
> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage
> in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of
> signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
> 
> Thanks
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From steve at bendentech.co.uk  Thu Jan 13 18:23:57 2022
From: steve at bendentech.co.uk (Steve Lenham)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:23:57 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CA+u0Jt=M+n2GdbezcBQ-UFHWwE5f0v0eiTTN3vaEcR_mDKYTaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EE724390-530E-4BEE-A600-6D27F2B1D6C4@electricdruid.net>
 <CA+u0Jt=M+n2GdbezcBQ-UFHWwE5f0v0eiTTN3vaEcR_mDKYTaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f902f73-95e3-5f8b-4502-a0088274f1e4@bendentech.co.uk>

On 13/01/2022 16:59, Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy wrote:
> If you use a switching supply there is very little heat dissipation 
> even at 12 or 15v.

With respect, that's not generally true. There will be less dissipation 
in the POWER SUPPLY, yes, but most of the dissipation takes place in the 
load (i.e. the actual circuitry of the synth) and that will remain the 
same regardless of how the rail is generated. Having said that, the 
benefits of a switching supply increase as the operating voltage of the 
synth (which is what this thread is about) decreases:

Example 1 - a synth that draws 1A at 15V, i.e. 15W

A 90% efficient switching regulator adds 1.7W to that, giving a total 
dissipation inside the unit of 16.7W.
A linear regulator with a realistic input voltage of 20V adds 5W, giving 
a total dissipation of 20W. Not that different.

Example 2 - a synth that draws 1A at 5V, i.e. 5W

A 90% efficient switching regulator adds 0.6W to that, giving a total 
dissipation of 5.6W.
A linear regulator with a realistic input voltage of 10V adds 5W, giving 
a total dissipation of 10W. Quite a bit higher!

And yes, I know that there are low-dropout linear regulators, but in the 
real world you will not be able to sail much closer to the dropout 
voltage when using the traditional transformer/rectifier/cap arrangement.

Cheers,

Steve L.




From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Thu Jan 13 18:58:16 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:58:16 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <20220113175816.GA2456@gjcp.net>

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 06:13:58PM +0100, Roman Sowa wrote:
> 
> 5V synth is actually one of my current obsessions so (forgive my blantant
> bragging) here are 2 examples:
> this is powered from +/-3, but will happily run at +/-1.5V too:
> https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko
> 

Obviously there's the EDP Gnat / Wasp family with its CD4069UBE / CA3080 pairing that runs off a 5V rail with the centre biased to 2.5V.

-- 
Gordonjcp



From jacobwatters at gmail.com  Thu Jan 13 19:04:42 2022
From: jacobwatters at gmail.com (Jacob Watters)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:04:42 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <20220113175816.GA2456@gjcp.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl> <20220113175816.GA2456@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <CAKcdib2M4A+OojnaMyAZjEK9O+kftrhkpL+wMj=S6UG63EO-SA@mail.gmail.com>

The Korg Monotron is 5V too, but it is very noisy.

On Thu., Jan. 13, 2022, 1:00 p.m. Gordonjcp, <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 06:13:58PM +0100, Roman Sowa wrote:
> >
> > 5V synth is actually one of my current obsessions so (forgive my blantant
> > bragging) here are 2 examples:
> > this is powered from +/-3, but will happily run at +/-1.5V too:
> >
> https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko
> >
>
> Obviously there's the EDP Gnat / Wasp family with its CD4069UBE / CA3080
> pairing that runs off a 5V rail with the centre biased to 2.5V.
>
> --
> Gordonjcp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From declareupdate at gmail.com  Thu Jan 13 19:42:17 2022
From: declareupdate at gmail.com (Chris McDowell)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:42:17 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A0FAD19-F282-4664-9E43-A2D4BA74DEBC@gmail.com>

I have dug into this some. 

I built a VCO, VCF, and VCA from LM13700s running at 3.3V. While it was what I'd call "a little bit noisy", they sound "old" which to me often equates to "good" 

I'd say build something and determine if it is too noisy. I used MCP6002 op amps and LM13700. 

> On Jan 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others
> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus
> you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to
> build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts
> progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
> 
> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer
> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4
> VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads
> of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a
> keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of
> capacitors vs their rated voltage.
> 
> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage
> in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of
> signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
> 
> Thanks
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From tom at electricdruid.net  Thu Jan 13 20:13:45 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:13:45 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <7A0FAD19-F282-4664-9E43-A2D4BA74DEBC@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A0FAD19-F282-4664-9E43-A2D4BA74DEBC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5BEC8EE-1576-4214-89F0-28CAC27F514E@electricdruid.net>

MCP6002 might be a modern op-amp, but the specs read like a 741. It's designed for rail-to-rail use at 5V, but I don't think they had audio in mind!

Not that I'm criticising your choice. I've used it too in similar situations for the same reasons.

> On 13 Jan 2022, at 18:42, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I have dug into this some. 
> 
> I built a VCO, VCF, and VCA from LM13700s running at 3.3V. While it was what I'd call "a little bit noisy", they sound "old" which to me often equates to "good" 
> 
> I'd say build something and determine if it is too noisy. I used MCP6002 op amps and LM13700. 
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others
>> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus
>> you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to
>> build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
>> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
>> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts
>> progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
>> 
>> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer
>> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4
>> VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads
>> of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a
>> keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of
>> capacitors vs their rated voltage.
>> 
>> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage
>> in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of
>> signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From jschwich53 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 13 20:31:07 2022
From: jschwich53 at comcast.net (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 11:31:07 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>

Audio is one thing but what about frequency control voltages?

If you want a full range VCO or filter using +/-1.5 or +/-3 volts you 
won't have much range with 1V/O.? So you'll have to live with the range 
or change to something non-standard like maybe 0.25 or 0.5 V/O.

Jay S.

On 1/13/2022 9:13 AM, Roman Sowa wrote:
> 1.5V rails might be slightly insane, but +/-3V why not.
> Not to mention +/-5V, which is advertized in many opamp datasheets as 
> "high voltage".
> Synths rarely run signal hitting anywhere close to +/-15V rails, more 
> like 5 to max 10Vpp. Scaling it down to 6Vpp in +/-3V system looks 
> then like no change at all.
>
> 5V synth is actually one of my current obsessions so (forgive my 
> blantant bragging) here are 2 examples:
> this is powered from +/-3, but will happily run at +/-1.5V too:
> https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko 
>
>
> and this runs down to 1.8V, although good performance starts at 2.1V:
> http://sowa.synth.net/schem/vco8/
>
> Roman
>


From tim.parkhurst at gmail.com  Thu Jan 13 21:47:37 2022
From: tim.parkhurst at gmail.com (Tim Parkhurst)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:47:37 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
 <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CACDGQT9JwNSAvAdybRC56+gSG-SrnvR0w11bOzqwVKTVR3L3ww@mail.gmail.com>

I always thought the 1.2V/O Buchla standard made a lot of sense. Maybe
something like that (0.1V/step), scaled down would be nice. On a +/-3V
system, take a 0 to 2.4V signal to cover 10 octaves, giving you 0.02V/step
or 0.24V/Octave.

One by-product of LVSDIY might be modular levels that are easier to use
with existing guitar effects boxes. We're definitely closer to line-level
or even instrument-level signals here, right?

Cheers,

Tim (I'll admit the LVSDIY acronym needs some work) Servo
---
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein





On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:34 AM Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Audio is one thing but what about frequency control voltages?
>
> If you want a full range VCO or filter using +/-1.5 or +/-3 volts you
> won't have much range with 1V/O.  So you'll have to live with the range
> or change to something non-standard like maybe 0.25 or 0.5 V/O.
>
> Jay S.
>
> On 1/13/2022 9:13 AM, Roman Sowa wrote:
> > 1.5V rails might be slightly insane, but +/-3V why not.
> > Not to mention +/-5V, which is advertized in many opamp datasheets as
> > "high voltage".
> > Synths rarely run signal hitting anywhere close to +/-15V rails, more
> > like 5 to max 10Vpp. Scaling it down to 6Vpp in +/-3V system looks
> > then like no change at all.
> >
> > 5V synth is actually one of my current obsessions so (forgive my
> > blantant bragging) here are 2 examples:
> > this is powered from +/-3, but will happily run at +/-1.5V too:
> >
> https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko
> >
> >
> > and this runs down to 1.8V, although good performance starts at 2.1V:
> > http://sowa.synth.net/schem/vco8/
> >
> > Roman
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Thu Jan 13 21:53:51 2022
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 14:53:51 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CACDGQT9JwNSAvAdybRC56+gSG-SrnvR0w11bOzqwVKTVR3L3ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
 <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>
 <CACDGQT9JwNSAvAdybRC56+gSG-SrnvR0w11bOzqwVKTVR3L3ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACodTR-0V6aM5xJv_bm91MTqjVVP2_2q7ca5dRBxuoJLmMgEbA@mail.gmail.com>

Doesn't that get you down where you need to be a lot more cautious about
noise, particularly coupled signals?

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 2:51 PM Tim Parkhurst via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> I always thought the 1.2V/O Buchla standard made a lot of sense. Maybe
> something like that (0.1V/step), scaled down would be nice. On a +/-3V
> system, take a 0 to 2.4V signal to cover 10 octaves, giving you 0.02V/step
> or 0.24V/Octave.
>
> One by-product of LVSDIY might be modular levels that are easier to use
> with existing guitar effects boxes. We're definitely closer to line-level
> or even instrument-level signals here, right?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tim (I'll admit the LVSDIY acronym needs some work) Servo
> ---
> "Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:34 AM Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>> Audio is one thing but what about frequency control voltages?
>>
>> If you want a full range VCO or filter using +/-1.5 or +/-3 volts you
>> won't have much range with 1V/O.  So you'll have to live with the range
>> or change to something non-standard like maybe 0.25 or 0.5 V/O.
>>
>> Jay S.
>>
>> On 1/13/2022 9:13 AM, Roman Sowa wrote:
>> > 1.5V rails might be slightly insane, but +/-3V why not.
>> > Not to mention +/-5V, which is advertized in many opamp datasheets as
>> > "high voltage".
>> > Synths rarely run signal hitting anywhere close to +/-15V rails, more
>> > like 5 to max 10Vpp. Scaling it down to 6Vpp in +/-3V system looks
>> > then like no change at all.
>> >
>> > 5V synth is actually one of my current obsessions so (forgive my
>> > blantant bragging) here are 2 examples:
>> > this is powered from +/-3, but will happily run at +/-1.5V too:
>> >
>> https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko
>> >
>> >
>> > and this runs down to 1.8V, although good performance starts at 2.1V:
>> > http://sowa.synth.net/schem/vco8/
>> >
>> > Roman
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Thu Jan 13 22:08:35 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:08:35 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <702F6EA9-37B8-4ACE-9745-AD6F0B50E4A8@audiobanshee.com>

Most op-amps lose a couple of volts near each rail; the input and output voltages can't reach all the way to the rail voltage without lots of distortion. That's one reason to use ?12V to feed op-amps that need to accurately handle ?10V signals (of course, if your circuit regulates a ?12V power source down to ?10V for the supply rails, then the op-amps are good for less than ?8V or so in terms of signal levels). Apart from maximum supply voltage ratings, op-amps generally don't care what voltages are used, but there's always the stipulation that your signal levels will be a few volts less than the rails on either side. When the rails are as low as ?2V, there'd be no room left for (undistorted) signals.

I've not seen any rail-to-rail op-amps that work with more than +5V, which can be treated as ?2.5V by using a virtual ground throughout the circuit, as well as capacitive coupling (*). Thus, it seems like there's a gap between the 5V rail-to-rail signal ranges and the typical 20V to 24V or more that normal op-amps can handle. Granted, there are R2R op-amps that work with less than 5V, e.g., 3.3V, but I'd be curious whether anyone knows of an R2R with more than 5V. In particular, I don't think you can manage ?5V - because there don't seem to be any 10V R2R chips - unless you're happy with signal levels within ?3V. At that point, you'd basically be better off with ?2.5V R2R than with standard op-amps operating at ?5V.

* You can avoid capacitive coupling of signals by operating with literal bipolar supply, but that can end up with more components than a virtual ground system (like guitar pedals usually are).

Brian Willoughby

On Jan 13, 2022, at 09:07, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail op-amps, but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.   Also these opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input crossover distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices conducting.  Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always slightly there.  There are a few bipolar R2R opamps without this problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 13 23:04:57 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:04:57 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
 <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <264a2fe17ac14b0aa338cbad2889cb6b@futurehorizons.com>

One possibility might be having a coarse and fine signal - the coarse somehow being quantised to only allow tuning to exact notes on whatever scale you are using, the fine moving an octave or so around this note.  But at this point you'll probably either wish you'd used +/-15V, or gone digital :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
Sent: 13 January 2022 19:31
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

Audio is one thing but what about frequency control voltages?

If you want a full range VCO or filter using +/-1.5 or +/-3 volts you won't have much range with 1V/O.? So you'll have to live with the range or change to something non-standard like maybe 0.25 or 0.5 V/O.

Jay S.

On 1/13/2022 9:13 AM, Roman Sowa wrote:
> 1.5V rails might be slightly insane, but +/-3V why not.
> Not to mention +/-5V, which is advertized in many opamp datasheets as 
> "high voltage".
> Synths rarely run signal hitting anywhere close to +/-15V rails, more 
> like 5 to max 10Vpp. Scaling it down to 6Vpp in +/-3V system looks 
> then like no change at all.
>
> 5V synth is actually one of my current obsessions so (forgive my 
> blantant bragging) here are 2 examples:
> this is powered from +/-3, but will happily run at +/-1.5V too:
> https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzid
> elko
>
>
> and this runs down to 1.8V, although good performance starts at 2.1V:
> http://sowa.synth.net/schem/vco8/
>
> Roman
>
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mr at analogue.org  Fri Jan 14 00:23:58 2022
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:23:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
 <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBVB2MRXYW3oN4c=+Upk6Thwa+ZWJ3qspeS-WcuA4en-BQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 at 20:32, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Audio is one thing but what about frequency control voltages?
>
> If you want a full range VCO or filter using +/-1.5 or +/-3 volts you
> won't have much range with 1V/O.


But 1 V/octave - that's outside your synth, right? It enters through a
resistor and becomes a current, and it's up to you to do something useful
with it.

*Generating* CVs is another story though. Hard to do without enough supply
voltage. :-)


> So you'll have to live with the range
> or change to something non-standard like maybe 0.25 or 0.5 V/O.
>

Why not 0.198679797 V/octave, like the 2164 VCA has at room temperature?
Sounds like a good internal standard. (-:

/mr
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 00:45:05 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:45:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:07 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> resistor noise still eventually wins.

I am aware of resistor noise as one source of issues in a low voltage
system. I am also wondering what other problems there might be. Brian
talked about voltage regulator dropout and opamp rail margin, and
those are pretty valid, but I wonder what's being used in places like
mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

>  Techniques to look at to reduce problems further include using currents rather than voltages wherever possible.

What sort of noise does that reduce and how does it do that? It makes
sense to differentiate between voltage and current noise. For example,
the resistor in an RC high pass filter will introduce noise in the
voltage, since the resistor is across the signal to ground. However,
in an RC low pass filter, the resistor will introduce noise in the
current.

> Of course many synth circuits do use currents - the Moog ladder filter for example - but you'll need to work linearly rather than exponentially.

What does "linearly rather than exponentially" mean? Are you saying
the moog vcf somehow works "exponentially using currents" and I would
need to somehow make it work "linearly using currents"? I don't know
what that means - would you mind explaining a bit? Thanks.

> The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail op-amps, but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.   Also these opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input crossover distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices conducting.  Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always slightly there.  There are a few bipolar R2R opamps without this problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.

Thanks for the suggestion on the op amp.

BTW, I have planned to read (some of?) Low-Noise Electronic Design by
Motchenbacher in order to help with figuring out how to do noise. (I
think the book title changed a little later).

I've browsed the book just now for a bit and I wonder about one thing.
Wouldn't audio / synth circuits create much less power dissipation if
they used power (impedance-matched) signalling rather than voltage
signalling (low into high impedance)? I haven't worked much with
impedance matched audio, but I believe it should lower power losses in
circuits, right? Could that be one way to do "colder" synths? In which
case you could keep the "high" rail voltages and keep the benefit of
outpacing resistor noise.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 13 January 2022 16:21
> To: synth-diy
> Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
>
> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4 VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of capacitors vs their rated voltage.
>
> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
>
> Thanks
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 00:49:18 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:49:18 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>

Speaking of low power parts, I wonder one thing. What are everyone's
absolutely smallest "useable for synths" parts? Mainly I mean:
- op amps
- transistors (bjt or fet)
- VCAs (if at all??)
- linear and switching voltage regulators
- other semiconductors you deem relevant

I'm hoping for stuff like BGA or even flip chip, literally grains of sand.


From chromatest at azburners.org  Fri Jan 14 01:33:08 2022
From: chromatest at azburners.org (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:33:08 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADpm=3GWg=AswqSG7PCJ4OOctpk925s1bMANexHZDXiN1+gbJw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm testing out (learning) how to solder 0603 and 0805 right now.  just
things like resistors and caps though so far.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 4:50 PM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Speaking of low power parts, I wonder one thing. What are everyone's
> absolutely smallest "useable for synths" parts? Mainly I mean:
> - op amps
> - transistors (bjt or fet)
> - VCAs (if at all??)
> - linear and switching voltage regulators
> - other semiconductors you deem relevant
>
> I'm hoping for stuff like BGA or even flip chip, literally grains of sand.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From my_one_opus at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 14 01:57:00 2022
From: my_one_opus at hotmail.com (John Baldwin)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:57:00 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3GWg=AswqSG7PCJ4OOctpk925s1bMANexHZDXiN1+gbJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADpm=3GWg=AswqSG7PCJ4OOctpk925s1bMANexHZDXiN1+gbJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DU2P194MB1532300EFF708AE79A0A14CCA6549@DU2P194MB1532.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Down to 0402 and TSSOP/LQFP64 is fine either with a paste/hot air or with an iron; as long as you have a steady hand, magnification and good tweezers. I?ve found sod523 diodes to be a pain, as the leads are short, usually the pads are small and it?s often hard to see the stripe. I?d happily not solder another one of those. Sod323 is fine though.

I guess it depends if you?ve got an oven and stencils though or you?re going down the pcba route.

On 14 Jan 2022, at 00:38, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker <chromatest at azburners.org> wrote:

?
I'm testing out (learning) how to solder 0603 and 0805 right now.  just things like resistors and caps though so far.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 4:50 PM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
Speaking of low power parts, I wonder one thing. What are everyone's
absolutely smallest "useable for synths" parts? Mainly I mean:
- op amps
- transistors (bjt or fet)
- VCAs (if at all??)
- linear and switching voltage regulators
- other semiconductors you deem relevant

I'm hoping for stuff like BGA or even flip chip, literally grains of sand.
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Fri Jan 14 02:13:11 2022
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:13:11 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA79VLpH95djyTssTeUwUbV+zsy9kJtiMKGnOVTA5HyTZx0zqg@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone is looking for a "high voltage rail to rail" op amp, there is
this:
"Texas Instruments OPAx172/OPAx172-Q1 Rail-to-Rail Operational Amplifiers
are 36V, single-supply, low-noise operational amplifiers. Each is capable
of operating on supplies ranging from +4.5V (?2.25V) to +36V (?18V)."
I haven't used them. I don't know about this op amp, but some low voltage
chips now have an internal power supply which creates headroom for the
output stage. Crazy to think that there are circuits inside the chi
operating at above the maximum rails level!

paul perry Melbourne Australia

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 10:48 AM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:07 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > resistor noise still eventually wins.
>
> I am aware of resistor noise as one source of issues in a low voltage
> system. I am also wondering what other problems there might be. Brian
> talked about voltage regulator dropout and opamp rail margin, and
> those are pretty valid, but I wonder what's being used in places like
> mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
> +/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.
>
> >  Techniques to look at to reduce problems further include using currents
> rather than voltages wherever possible.
>
> What sort of noise does that reduce and how does it do that? It makes
> sense to differentiate between voltage and current noise. For example,
> the resistor in an RC high pass filter will introduce noise in the
> voltage, since the resistor is across the signal to ground. However,
> in an RC low pass filter, the resistor will introduce noise in the
> current.
>
> > Of course many synth circuits do use currents - the Moog ladder filter
> for example - but you'll need to work linearly rather than exponentially.
>
> What does "linearly rather than exponentially" mean? Are you saying
> the moog vcf somehow works "exponentially using currents" and I would
> need to somehow make it work "linearly using currents"? I don't know
> what that means - would you mind explaining a bit? Thanks.
>
> > The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail op-amps,
> but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.   Also these
> opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input crossover
> distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices conducting.
> Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always slightly there.  There are
> a few bipolar R2R opamps without this problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion on the op amp.
>
> BTW, I have planned to read (some of?) Low-Noise Electronic Design by
> Motchenbacher in order to help with figuring out how to do noise. (I
> think the book title changed a little later).
>
> I've browsed the book just now for a bit and I wonder about one thing.
> Wouldn't audio / synth circuits create much less power dissipation if
> they used power (impedance-matched) signalling rather than voltage
> signalling (low into high impedance)? I haven't worked much with
> impedance matched audio, but I believe it should lower power losses in
> circuits, right? Could that be one way to do "colder" synths? In which
> case you could keep the "high" rail voltages and keep the benefit of
> outpacing resistor noise.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 13 January 2022 16:21
> > To: synth-diy
> > Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
> >
> > Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others
> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus you
> can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to build
> synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
> > Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts progressed
> enough nowadays that we can do this?
> >
> > Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer
> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4 VCO,
> VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads of heat
> and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a keyboard, plus it
> would be huge, especially given the size of capacitors vs their rated
> voltage.
> >
> > Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage in
> your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of signal
> integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
> >
> > Thanks
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From fluxmonk at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 03:23:50 2022
From: fluxmonk at gmail.com (bbob)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 21:23:50 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3GWg=AswqSG7PCJ4OOctpk925s1bMANexHZDXiN1+gbJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADpm=3GWg=AswqSG7PCJ4OOctpk925s1bMANexHZDXiN1+gbJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABbX2d-gjrLk5BxEqF0+kpHi1Bd5OtydNbyQcYS5WavL_F=T0w@mail.gmail.com>

I just finished an 0603 build with all the wrong equipment (regular
roundtip iron, too-large solder, no flux, no tweezers, no magnifier).  i'm
not bragging,'cause it was a PITA, but it worked first time.  lesson
learned, never again.

b

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 4:50 PM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Speaking of low power parts, I wonder one thing. What are everyone's
> absolutely smallest "useable for synths" parts? Mainly I mean:
> - op amps
> - transistors (bjt or fet)
> - VCAs (if at all??)
> - linear and switching voltage regulators
> - other semiconductors you deem relevant
>
> I'm hoping for stuff like BGA or even flip chip, literally grains of sand.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 04:23:54 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 03:23:54 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] FW:  Tiny SMD parts
References: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <706dfc9258f74cf0aaffb011a95c15e6@futurehorizons.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Bryant 
Sent: 14 January 2022 03:24
To: 'cheater cheater'
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts

Just get an assembly house such as JLCPCB to build it for you so then you can use the smallest available, subject to power dissipation limits of course.   QFN ICs and 0402 resistors, 0603 capacitors.   They'll do a far better job than anybody in their own workshop.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: 13 January 2022 23:49
To: synth-diy
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts

Speaking of low power parts, I wonder one thing. What are everyone's absolutely smallest "useable for synths" parts? Mainly I mean:
- op amps
- transistors (bjt or fet)
- VCAs (if at all??)
- linear and switching voltage regulators
- other semiconductors you deem relevant

I'm hoping for stuff like BGA or even flip chip, literally grains of sand.
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 04:36:52 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 03:36:52 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>

Using currents rather than voltages is how it's done inside linear ICs.  I think it's explained in Art of Electronics.

Nowadays mobile phone amplifiers are all digital - the digital audio (I2S possibly) digital signal is converted to a PDM signal which drives a class D amplifier and a simple LC reconstruction filter on the output.
Some years ago they did use DACs (e.g. Wolfson devices) followed by a Class D amp, until someone realised going digital -> analogue -> digital -> analogue was a nonsense.

By "linearly rather than exponentially" I mean that most synths use an exponential convertor to convert from a voltage input to a current output, which then drives the Moog ladder, or some forms of VCO, etc.  The Blackmer cell also uses currents internally.


> Wouldn't audio / synth circuits create much less power dissipation if they used power (impedance-matched) signalling rather than voltage signalling (low into high impedance)? I haven't worked much with impedance matched audio, but I believe it should lower power losses in circuits, right? Could that be one way to do "colder" synths? In which case you could keep the "high" rail voltages and keep the benefit of outpacing resistor noise.

Actually it doesn't affect power dissipation much, but if you're in the Rupert Neve camp of how to do things, it is the correct way and you do get slightly better noise figures.  But the industry moved away from that approach some years ago with low output impedance, medium-high input impedance becoming the norm, though every manufacturer has a different in and out impedance.  Music Tribe even have differing impedances across their brands.


-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 13 January 2022 23:45
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:07 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> resistor noise still eventually wins.

I am aware of resistor noise as one source of issues in a low voltage system. I am also wondering what other problems there might be. Brian talked about voltage regulator dropout and opamp rail margin, and those are pretty valid, but I wonder what's being used in places like mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

>  Techniques to look at to reduce problems further include using currents rather than voltages wherever possible.

What sort of noise does that reduce and how does it do that? It makes sense to differentiate between voltage and current noise. For example, the resistor in an RC high pass filter will introduce noise in the voltage, since the resistor is across the signal to ground. However, in an RC low pass filter, the resistor will introduce noise in the current.

> Of course many synth circuits do use currents - the Moog ladder filter for example - but you'll need to work linearly rather than exponentially.

What does "linearly rather than exponentially" mean? Are you saying the moog vcf somehow works "exponentially using currents" and I would need to somehow make it work "linearly using currents"? I don't know what that means - would you mind explaining a bit? Thanks.

> The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail op-amps, but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.   Also these opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input crossover distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices conducting.  Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always slightly there.  There are a few bipolar R2R opamps without this problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.

Thanks for the suggestion on the op amp.

BTW, I have planned to read (some of?) Low-Noise Electronic Design by Motchenbacher in order to help with figuring out how to do noise. (I think the book title changed a little later).

I've browsed the book just now for a bit and I wonder about one thing.
Wouldn't audio / synth circuits create much less power dissipation if they used power (impedance-matched) signalling rather than voltage signalling (low into high impedance)? I haven't worked much with impedance matched audio, but I believe it should lower power losses in circuits, right? Could that be one way to do "colder" synths? In which case you could keep the "high" rail voltages and keep the benefit of outpacing resistor noise.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 13 January 2022 16:21
> To: synth-diy
> Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
>
> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4 VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of capacitors vs their rated voltage.
>
> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
>
> Thanks
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>




From jason at tribbeck.com  Fri Jan 14 05:00:43 2022
From: jason at tribbeck.com (Jason Tribbeck)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 04:00:43 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3=FbYT=oy_Bjz4OatFgRnkj=ZMtqzOFz+KZK=kOtHqhz7xLA@mail.gmail.com>

If I'm etching the board myself, then 0603 and 0.5mm QFP is the general
limit (I have done 0402 and 0.4mm once, but the 0.4mm wasn't perfect).

If the board is made professionally (with a stencil), then 0402, QFN and
0.4mm is fine - but I do have a manual pick and place machine and a reflow
oven.

My current project is a mini-itx motherboard, which I did the first
prototypes in December. Only manufacturing failure was a 0.5mm DFN that had
too much paste.

BGA not had to use yet, but I have designed some boards for such FPGAs.

Still don't like SOT-523 though.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022, 23:49 cheater cheater via Synth-diy, <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Speaking of low power parts, I wonder one thing. What are everyone's
> absolutely smallest "useable for synths" parts? Mainly I mean:
> - op amps
> - transistors (bjt or fet)
> - VCAs (if at all??)
> - linear and switching voltage regulators
> - other semiconductors you deem relevant
>
> I'm hoping for stuff like BGA or even flip chip, literally grains of sand.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From paulfrancisperry at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 05:10:08 2022
From: paulfrancisperry at gmail.com (Paul Perry)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 15:10:08 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not an EE, but one thing I have noticed is that the people who design
the chips think in terms of current, and the people (like me) who use them,
are likelier to think in terms of voltage. Not that it matters, since V=IR.
Probably base amateurs like myself think of voltage because it is easier to
see on scopes and meters.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 at 14:40, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> Using currents rather than voltages is how it's done inside linear ICs.  I
> think it's explained in Art of Electronics.
>
> Nowadays mobile phone amplifiers are all digital - the digital audio (I2S
> possibly) digital signal is converted to a PDM signal which drives a class
> D amplifier and a simple LC reconstruction filter on the output.
> Some years ago they did use DACs (e.g. Wolfson devices) followed by a
> Class D amp, until someone realised going digital -> analogue -> digital ->
> analogue was a nonsense.
>
> By "linearly rather than exponentially" I mean that most synths use an
> exponential convertor to convert from a voltage input to a current output,
> which then drives the Moog ladder, or some forms of VCO, etc.  The Blackmer
> cell also uses currents internally.
>
>
> > Wouldn't audio / synth circuits create much less power dissipation if
> they used power (impedance-matched) signalling rather than voltage
> signalling (low into high impedance)? I haven't worked much with impedance
> matched audio, but I believe it should lower power losses in circuits,
> right? Could that be one way to do "colder" synths? In which case you could
> keep the "high" rail voltages and keep the benefit of outpacing resistor
> noise.
>
> Actually it doesn't affect power dissipation much, but if you're in the
> Rupert Neve camp of how to do things, it is the correct way and you do get
> slightly better noise figures.  But the industry moved away from that
> approach some years ago with low output impedance, medium-high input
> impedance becoming the norm, though every manufacturer has a different in
> and out impedance.  Music Tribe even have differing impedances across their
> brands.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 13 January 2022 23:45
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:07 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > resistor noise still eventually wins.
>
> I am aware of resistor noise as one source of issues in a low voltage
> system. I am also wondering what other problems there might be. Brian
> talked about voltage regulator dropout and opamp rail margin, and those are
> pretty valid, but I wonder what's being used in places like mobile phones
> or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
> +/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.
>
> >  Techniques to look at to reduce problems further include using currents
> rather than voltages wherever possible.
>
> What sort of noise does that reduce and how does it do that? It makes
> sense to differentiate between voltage and current noise. For example, the
> resistor in an RC high pass filter will introduce noise in the voltage,
> since the resistor is across the signal to ground. However, in an RC low
> pass filter, the resistor will introduce noise in the current.
>
> > Of course many synth circuits do use currents - the Moog ladder filter
> for example - but you'll need to work linearly rather than exponentially.
>
> What does "linearly rather than exponentially" mean? Are you saying the
> moog vcf somehow works "exponentially using currents" and I would need to
> somehow make it work "linearly using currents"? I don't know what that
> means - would you mind explaining a bit? Thanks.
>
> > The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail op-amps,
> but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.   Also these
> opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input crossover
> distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices conducting.
> Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always slightly there.  There are
> a few bipolar R2R opamps without this problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion on the op amp.
>
> BTW, I have planned to read (some of?) Low-Noise Electronic Design by
> Motchenbacher in order to help with figuring out how to do noise. (I think
> the book title changed a little later).
>
> I've browsed the book just now for a bit and I wonder about one thing.
> Wouldn't audio / synth circuits create much less power dissipation if they
> used power (impedance-matched) signalling rather than voltage signalling
> (low into high impedance)? I haven't worked much with impedance matched
> audio, but I believe it should lower power losses in circuits, right? Could
> that be one way to do "colder" synths? In which case you could keep the
> "high" rail voltages and keep the benefit of outpacing resistor noise.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> > cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 13 January 2022 16:21
> > To: synth-diy
> > Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
> >
> > Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others
> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus you
> can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to build
> synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
> > Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts progressed
> enough nowadays that we can do this?
> >
> > Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer
> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4 VCO,
> VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads of heat
> and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a keyboard, plus it
> would be huge, especially given the size of capacitors vs their rated
> voltage.
> >
> > Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage in
> your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of signal
> integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
> >
> > Thanks
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 07:28:49 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 07:28:49 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts
In-Reply-To: <DU2P194MB1532300EFF708AE79A0A14CCA6549@DU2P194MB1532.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADpm=3GWg=AswqSG7PCJ4OOctpk925s1bMANexHZDXiN1+gbJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DU2P194MB1532300EFF708AE79A0A14CCA6549@DU2P194MB1532.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--=-tVsDg8H0LFCyXo0bKeub8Sh_4pQivdxF+Bb-Vp8OA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 1:57 AM John Baldwin <my_one_opus at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I guess it depends if you?ve got an oven and stencils though or you?re going down the pcba route.

I think that's one thing a lot of people are missing - I'm asking
about chips. I don't care about passives, and I don't care about how
easy / hard stuff is to solder, since I am asking about a pcba
scenario. Honestly, the harder to solder the better, since that just
means it's tiny.

So... again... what are the smallest OP AMPS and TRANSISTORS
everyone's seen or used for audio? I'm looking for packages like 6-pin
BGAs for op amps and similar grain sized for transistors. QFN is
already bordering on too big (but acceptable if the power dissipation
doesn't allow a smaller device)

If we know some devices like this, we can build really tiny audio
circuits. One nice thing is that even if they generate a some power, a
lot of it can be sunk into the PCB, and in the worst case scenario you
can put all parts on one side of the pcb (while routing on both sides)
and slap a heatsink on the other side.



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 07:34:19 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 07:34:19 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_+O4zKfSF_vkGP9AbvjnLmMOTJYp7TQnBRudDU+MpJuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 4:36 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Using currents rather than voltages is how it's done inside linear ICs.  I think it's explained in Art of Electronics.

What are "linear ICs"? Do you mean ICs made by Linear Tech (now owned by AD)?

> By "linearly rather than exponentially" I mean that most synths use an exponential convertor to convert from a voltage input to a current output, which then drives the Moog ladder, or some forms of VCO, etc.  The Blackmer cell also uses currents internally.

Gotcha, thanks.

> > Wouldn't audio / synth circuits create much less power dissipation if they used power (impedance-matched) signalling rather than voltage signalling (low into high impedance)? I haven't worked much with impedance matched audio, but I believe it should lower power losses in circuits, right? Could that be one way to do "colder" synths? In which case you could keep the "high" rail voltages and keep the benefit of outpacing resistor noise.
>
> the industry moved away from that approach some years ago with low output impedance, medium-high input impedance becoming the norm, though every manufacturer has a different in and out impedance.  Music Tribe even have differing impedances across their brands.

I'm not talking about interconnects - I'm talking about how signalling
works internally to the circuit. That can be voltage, current, or
power based as well, and the question is what will dissipate the least
power while remaining good for synthesizer circuits.

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 13 January 2022 23:45
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:07 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> > resistor noise still eventually wins.
>
> I am aware of resistor noise as one source of issues in a low voltage system. I am also wondering what other problems there might be. Brian talked about voltage regulator dropout and opamp rail margin, and those are pretty valid, but I wonder what's being used in places like mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
> +/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.
>
> >  Techniques to look at to reduce problems further include using currents rather than voltages wherever possible.
>
> What sort of noise does that reduce and how does it do that? It makes sense to differentiate between voltage and current noise. For example, the resistor in an RC high pass filter will introduce noise in the voltage, since the resistor is across the signal to ground. However, in an RC low pass filter, the resistor will introduce noise in the current.
>
> > Of course many synth circuits do use currents - the Moog ladder filter for example - but you'll need to work linearly rather than exponentially.
>
> What does "linearly rather than exponentially" mean? Are you saying the moog vcf somehow works "exponentially using currents" and I would need to somehow make it work "linearly using currents"? I don't know what that means - would you mind explaining a bit? Thanks.
>
> > The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail op-amps, but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.   Also these opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input crossover distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices conducting.  Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always slightly there.  There are a few bipolar R2R opamps without this problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion on the op amp.
>
> BTW, I have planned to read (some of?) Low-Noise Electronic Design by Motchenbacher in order to help with figuring out how to do noise. (I think the book title changed a little later).
>
> I've browsed the book just now for a bit and I wonder about one thing.
> Wouldn't audio / synth circuits create much less power dissipation if they used power (impedance-matched) signalling rather than voltage signalling (low into high impedance)? I haven't worked much with impedance matched audio, but I believe it should lower power losses in circuits, right? Could that be one way to do "colder" synths? In which case you could keep the "high" rail voltages and keep the benefit of outpacing resistor noise.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> > cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 13 January 2022 16:21
> > To: synth-diy
> > Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
> >
> > Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, plus you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
> > Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
> >
> > Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 4 VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate loads of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of capacitors vs their rated voltage.
> >
> > Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
> >
> > Thanks
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
>



From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jan 14 08:02:11 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:02:11 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <702F6EA9-37B8-4ACE-9745-AD6F0B50E4A8@audiobanshee.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <702F6EA9-37B8-4ACE-9745-AD6F0B50E4A8@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <7780365d-e5e2-a9e4-044c-7059a2f1bc96@go2.pl>

There are lots of R-R opamps running at 5V. Typicaliy at 12V, 16V, 20V 
and even 40V.
To name a few from my stock:
TLV91xx
TLV93xx - not addvertised as input R-R but has pretty low input 
crossover error
OPAx172
OPAx99x

Most opamp application don't even require input going higher than about 
1.5V from upper rail where non-R2R opamps start to get dizzy, so in fact 
RRO (as oposed to RRIO) is all we really need in many LV applications. 
Nearly all opamps released during last 20-30 years have rail-to-rail 
outputs, including OPA1678.

Roman


W dniu 2022-01-13 o?22:08, Brian Willoughby pisze:
> Most op-amps lose a couple of volts near each rail; the input and output voltages can't reach all the way to the rail voltage without lots of distortion. That's one reason to use ?12V to feed op-amps that need to accurately handle ?10V signals (of course, if your circuit regulates a ?12V power source down to ?10V for the supply rails, then the op-amps are good for less than ?8V or so in terms of signal levels). Apart from maximum supply voltage ratings, op-amps generally don't care what voltages are used, but there's always the stipulation that your signal levels will be a few volts less than the rails on either side. When the rails are as low as ?2V, there'd be no room left for (undistorted) signals.
>
> I've not seen any rail-to-rail op-amps that work with more than +5V, which can be treated as ?2.5V by using a virtual ground throughout the circuit, as well as capacitive coupling (*). Thus, it seems like there's a gap between the 5V rail-to-rail signal ranges and the typical 20V to 24V or more that normal op-amps can handle. Granted, there are R2R op-amps that work with less than 5V, e.g., 3.3V, but I'd be curious whether anyone knows of an R2R with more than 5V. In particular, I don't think you can manage ?5V - because there don't seem to be any 10V R2R chips - unless you're happy with signal levels within ?3V. At that point, you'd basically be better off with ?2.5V R2R than with standard op-amps operating at ?5V.
>
> * You can avoid capacitive coupling of signals by operating with literal bipolar supply, but that can end up with more components than a virtual ground system (like guitar pedals usually are).
>
> Brian Willoughby
>
> On Jan 13, 2022, at 09:07, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail op-amps, but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.   Also these opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input crossover distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices conducting.  Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always slightly there.  There are a few bipolar R2R opamps without this problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jan 14 08:04:18 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:04:18 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR-0V6aM5xJv_bm91MTqjVVP2_2q7ca5dRBxuoJLmMgEbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <882c8244-7c08-d9b8-238f-381633edbbe5@go2.pl>
 <ece1bc16-23b4-dd19-3dd3-649b1915c40b@comcast.net>
 <CACDGQT9JwNSAvAdybRC56+gSG-SrnvR0w11bOzqwVKTVR3L3ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACodTR-0V6aM5xJv_bm91MTqjVVP2_2q7ca5dRBxuoJLmMgEbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04e31801-733c-edc2-48d2-5bcec489949b@go2.pl>

It is all eventually scaled down to 18mV/oct anyway

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-13 o?21:53, Pete Hartman via Synth-diy pisze:
> Doesn't that get you down where you need to be a lot more cautious 
> about noise, particularly coupled signals?
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 2:51 PM Tim Parkhurst via Synth-diy 
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>     I always thought the 1.2V/O Buchla standard made a lot of sense.
>     Maybe something like that (0.1V/step), scaled down would be nice.
>     On a +/-3V system, take a?0 to 2.4V signal to cover 10 octaves,
>     giving you 0.02V/step or 0.24V/Octave.
>
>     One by-product of LVSDIY?might be modular levels that are easier
>     to use with existing guitar effects boxes. We're definitely closer
>     to line-level or even instrument-level signals here, right?
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Tim (I'll admit the LVSDIY?acronym needs some work) Servo
>     ---
>     "Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
>
>
>
>
>
>     On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:34 AM Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
>     <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>         Audio is one thing but what about frequency control voltages?
>
>         If you want a full range VCO or filter using +/-1.5 or +/-3
>         volts you
>         won't have much range with 1V/O.? So you'll have to live with
>         the range
>         or change to something non-standard like maybe 0.25 or 0.5 V/O.
>
>         Jay S.
>
>         On 1/13/2022 9:13 AM, Roman Sowa wrote:
>         > 1.5V rails might be slightly insane, but +/-3V why not.
>         > Not to mention +/-5V, which is advertized in many opamp
>         datasheets as
>         > "high voltage".
>         > Synths rarely run signal hitting anywhere close to +/-15V
>         rails, more
>         > like 5 to max 10Vpp. Scaling it down to 6Vpp in +/-3V system
>         looks
>         > then like no change at all.
>         >
>         > 5V synth is actually one of my current obsessions so
>         (forgive my
>         > blantant bragging) here are 2 examples:
>         > this is powered from +/-3, but will happily run at +/-1.5V too:
>         >
>         https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko
>         <https://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko>
>
>         >
>         >
>         > and this runs down to 1.8V, although good performance starts
>         at 2.1V:
>         > http://sowa.synth.net/schem/vco8/
>         >
>         > Roman
>         >
>         _______________________________________________
>         Synth-diy mailing list
>         Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>         http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>         Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Synth-diy mailing list
>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jan 14 08:10:42 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:10:42 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <7780365d-e5e2-a9e4-044c-7059a2f1bc96@go2.pl>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <702F6EA9-37B8-4ACE-9745-AD6F0B50E4A8@audiobanshee.com>
 <7780365d-e5e2-a9e4-044c-7059a2f1bc96@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <76153bfc-41a1-63c7-f057-c4486f862bff@go2.pl>

Well, obviously I meant "running at MORE than 5V"

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-14 o?08:02, Roman Sowa pisze:
> There are lots of R-R opamps running at 5V. Typicaliy at 12V, 16V, 20V 
> and even 40V.
> To name a few from my stock:
> TLV91xx
> TLV93xx - not addvertised as input R-R but has pretty low input 
> crossover error
> OPAx172
> OPAx99x
>
> Most opamp application don't even require input going higher than 
> about 1.5V from upper rail where non-R2R opamps start to get dizzy, so 
> in fact RRO (as oposed to RRIO) is all we really need in many LV 
> applications. Nearly all opamps released during last 20-30 years have 
> rail-to-rail outputs, including OPA1678.
>
> Roman
>
>
> W dniu 2022-01-13 o?22:08, Brian Willoughby pisze:
>> Most op-amps lose a couple of volts near each rail; the input and 
>> output voltages can't reach all the way to the rail voltage without 
>> lots of distortion. That's one reason to use ?12V to feed op-amps 
>> that need to accurately handle ?10V signals (of course, if your 
>> circuit regulates a ?12V power source down to ?10V for the supply 
>> rails, then the op-amps are good for less than ?8V or so in terms of 
>> signal levels). Apart from maximum supply voltage ratings, op-amps 
>> generally don't care what voltages are used, but there's always the 
>> stipulation that your signal levels will be a few volts less than the 
>> rails on either side. When the rails are as low as ?2V, there'd be no 
>> room left for (undistorted) signals.
>>
>> I've not seen any rail-to-rail op-amps that work with more than +5V, 
>> which can be treated as ?2.5V by using a virtual ground throughout 
>> the circuit, as well as capacitive coupling (*). Thus, it seems like 
>> there's a gap between the 5V rail-to-rail signal ranges and the 
>> typical 20V to 24V or more that normal op-amps can handle. Granted, 
>> there are R2R op-amps that work with less than 5V, e.g., 3.3V, but 
>> I'd be curious whether anyone knows of an R2R with more than 5V. In 
>> particular, I don't think you can manage ?5V - because there don't 
>> seem to be any 10V R2R chips - unless you're happy with signal levels 
>> within ?3V. At that point, you'd basically be better off with ?2.5V 
>> R2R than with standard op-amps operating at ?5V.
>>
>> * You can avoid capacitive coupling of signals by operating with 
>> literal bipolar supply, but that can end up with more components than 
>> a virtual ground system (like guitar pedals usually are).
>>
>> Brian Willoughby
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 09:07, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> 
>> wrote:
>>> The other issue you run against is you need to use rail-to-rail 
>>> op-amps, but most of these are specified for 5V/+-2.5V operation.?? 
>>> Also these opamps are often CMOS based and have what I term "input 
>>> crossover distortion" as they switch from the N to P type devices 
>>> conducting.? Negative feedback reduces this, but it's always 
>>> slightly there.? There are a few bipolar R2R opamps without this 
>>> problem - Rohm BA2510 is my favourite.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From admin at bugbrand.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 10:34:45 2022
From: admin at bugbrand.co.uk (Tom Bugs)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:34:45 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--=-tVsDg8H0LFCyXo0bKeub8Sh_4pQivdxF+Bb-Vp8OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADpm=3GWg=AswqSG7PCJ4OOctpk925s1bMANexHZDXiN1+gbJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DU2P194MB1532300EFF708AE79A0A14CCA6549@DU2P194MB1532.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAGn5V--=-tVsDg8H0LFCyXo0bKeub8Sh_4pQivdxF+Bb-Vp8OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <994d22de-2abc-7aad-e56f-f2d72ca1be28@bugbrand.co.uk>

Well, SSI brought out the tiny SSI2130 VCO - super powerful in a tiny QFN.
Not something I enjoyed trying to solder myself - always had minor 
issues - leave it to machines.

I was slightly wondering about getting a reel of TL072H in SOT-23 (8 
pin) at 2.9 x 1.6mm size.

But generally I'm slow to change - if it ain't broke, why try to fix it? 
I'm not trying to cram things, though certainly on complex builds it can 
be helpful to shrink things down a step or two.

On 14/01/2022 06:28, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 1:57 AM John Baldwin <my_one_opus at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I guess it depends if you?ve got an oven and stencils though or you?re going down the pcba route.
> I think that's one thing a lot of people are missing - I'm asking
> about chips. I don't care about passives, and I don't care about how
> easy / hard stuff is to solder, since I am asking about a pcba
> scenario. Honestly, the harder to solder the better, since that just
> means it's tiny.
>
> So... again... what are the smallest OP AMPS and TRANSISTORS
> everyone's seen or used for audio? I'm looking for packages like 6-pin
> BGAs for op amps and similar grain sized for transistors. QFN is
> already bordering on too big (but acceptable if the power dissipation
> doesn't allow a smaller device)
>
> If we know some devices like this, we can build really tiny audio
> circuits. One nice thing is that even if they generate a some power, a
> lot of it can be sunk into the PCB, and in the worst case scenario you
> can put all parts on one side of the pcb (while routing on both sides)
> and slap a heatsink on the other side.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

-- 
BugBrand LTD
UK company No. 07199808
VAT No. GB 988 2629 57
1 Ninetree Hill
BRISTOL BS1 3SB
United Kingdom
www.bugbrand.co.uk



From vladoman at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 11:09:46 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:09:46 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Tiny SMD parts
In-Reply-To: <994d22de-2abc-7aad-e56f-f2d72ca1be28@bugbrand.co.uk>
References: <CAGn5V--7S=Bs0HqBWyctkBDA8tGaJczEBu=8w8FcABZPR5q5uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADpm=3GWg=AswqSG7PCJ4OOctpk925s1bMANexHZDXiN1+gbJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DU2P194MB1532300EFF708AE79A0A14CCA6549@DU2P194MB1532.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAGn5V--=-tVsDg8H0LFCyXo0bKeub8Sh_4pQivdxF+Bb-Vp8OA@mail.gmail.com>
 <994d22de-2abc-7aad-e56f-f2d72ca1be28@bugbrand.co.uk>
Message-ID: <11979888-92e8-824f-4531-bae9ab36ed23@gmail.com>

On 14.01.22 10:34, Tom Bugs via Synth-diy wrote:
> Well, SSI brought out the tiny SSI2130 VCO - super powerful in a tiny QFN.
> Not something I enjoyed trying to solder myself - always had minor
> issues - leave it to machines.

when I make prototype PCBs that will take QFN I extend the pads
outwards. this way you have a place where the iron can heat the pad and
the solder to flow into a nice fillet



From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Jan 14 11:27:02 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:27:02 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>

I'd guess:

DAC -> Class D amp -> Outside world.

Not a lot of scope for noise in that very short signal chain.


> On 13 Jan 2022, at 23:45, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I wonder what's being used in places like
> mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
> +/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

-------------- next part --------------
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From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 11:39:18 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:39:18 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <C5BEC8EE-1576-4214-89F0-28CAC27F514E@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A0FAD19-F282-4664-9E43-A2D4BA74DEBC@gmail.com>
 <C5BEC8EE-1576-4214-89F0-28CAC27F514E@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <83d0b539dc9f6b301a792875dc95d305@richieburnett.co.uk>

Linear Technology (now part of Analog Devices) make some pretty neat 
low-voltage low-power rail-to-rail input/output op-amps...

LTC6261 (30MHz GBP for 245uA supply current)
LTC6255 (6.5MHz GBP for 65uA supply current)
LTC6258 (1.3MHz GBP for 20uA supply current)

We use these at work for various underwater acoustics stuff with just 
2.5V supply, but they are fully spec'ed down to 1.8V supply!

I don't know what tricks LT used in their design, but they are quite 
unique in terms of RRIO and the gain-bandwidth product that you get per 
microamp spent on quiescent supply current.  Just looking down LT/AD's 
combined op-amp product range, nothing else comes close to these in 
terms of GBP per mA.

But of course you can't actually get any of these during the current 
chip shortage!  Something that's causing us a bit of head scratching at 
the moment.

-Richie,




On 2022-01-13 19:13, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> MCP6002 might be a modern op-amp, but the specs read like a 741. It's
> designed for rail-to-rail use at 5V, but I don't think they had audio
> in mind!
> 
> Not that I'm criticising your choice. I've used it too in similar
> situations for the same reasons.
> 
>> On 13 Jan 2022, at 18:42, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have dug into this some.
>> 
>> I built a VCO, VCF, and VCA from LM13700s running at 3.3V. While it 
>> was what I'd call "a little bit noisy", they sound "old" which to me 
>> often equates to "good"
>> 
>> I'd say build something and determine if it is too noisy. I used 
>> MCP6002 op amps and LM13700.
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy 
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others
>>> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, 
>>> plus
>>> you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to
>>> build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
>>> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
>>> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts
>>> progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
>>> 
>>> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer
>>> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 
>>> 4
>>> VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate 
>>> loads
>>> of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a
>>> keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of
>>> capacitors vs their rated voltage.
>>> 
>>> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage
>>> in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of
>>> signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 11:44:39 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:44:39 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <C5BEC8EE-1576-4214-89F0-28CAC27F514E@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A0FAD19-F282-4664-9E43-A2D4BA74DEBC@gmail.com>
 <C5BEC8EE-1576-4214-89F0-28CAC27F514E@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <2b2a357637c915888efb6d6cd890b4fa@richieburnett.co.uk>

The MCP6022 has a much better spec if you can afford the milliamps.

-Richie,



On 2022-01-13 19:13, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> MCP6002 might be a modern op-amp, but the specs read like a 741. It's
> designed for rail-to-rail use at 5V, but I don't think they had audio
> in mind!
> 
> Not that I'm criticising your choice. I've used it too in similar
> situations for the same reasons.
> 
>> On 13 Jan 2022, at 18:42, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have dug into this some.
>> 
>> I built a VCO, VCF, and VCA from LM13700s running at 3.3V. While it 
>> was what I'd call "a little bit noisy", they sound "old" which to me 
>> often equates to "good"
>> 
>> I'd say build something and determine if it is too noisy. I used 
>> MCP6002 op amps and LM13700.
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy 
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others
>>> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, 
>>> plus
>>> you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make sense to
>>> build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages than that?
>>> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are
>>> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts
>>> progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
>>> 
>>> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer
>>> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with 
>>> 4
>>> VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate 
>>> loads
>>> of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a
>>> keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of
>>> capacitors vs their rated voltage.
>>> 
>>> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail voltage
>>> in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in terms of
>>> signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 11:58:15 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:58:15 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <2b2a357637c915888efb6d6cd890b4fa@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A0FAD19-F282-4664-9E43-A2D4BA74DEBC@gmail.com>
 <C5BEC8EE-1576-4214-89F0-28CAC27F514E@electricdruid.net>
 <2b2a357637c915888efb6d6cd890b4fa@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <f3ca394a14d846ccae49e37a02b15ad2@futurehorizons.com>

And the 10x cost !!


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk
Sent: 14 January 2022 10:45
To: Tom Wiltshire
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

The MCP6022 has a much better spec if you can afford the milliamps.

-Richie,



On 2022-01-13 19:13, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> MCP6002 might be a modern op-amp, but the specs read like a 741. It's 
> designed for rail-to-rail use at 5V, but I don't think they had audio 
> in mind!
> 
> Not that I'm criticising your choice. I've used it too in similar 
> situations for the same reasons.
> 
>> On 13 Jan 2022, at 18:42, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have dug into this some.
>> 
>> I built a VCO, VCF, and VCA from LM13700s running at 3.3V. While it 
>> was what I'd call "a little bit noisy", they sound "old" which to me 
>> often equates to "good"
>> 
>> I'd say build something and determine if it is too noisy. I used
>> MCP6002 op amps and LM13700.
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy 
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others 
>>> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, 
>>> plus you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make 
>>> sense to build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages 
>>> than that?
>>> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are 
>>> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts 
>>> progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
>>> 
>>> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer 
>>> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with
>>> 4
>>> VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate 
>>> loads of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a 
>>> keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of 
>>> capacitors vs their rated voltage.
>>> 
>>> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail 
>>> voltage in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in 
>>> terms of signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 12:09:37 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:09:37 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <83d0b539dc9f6b301a792875dc95d305@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A0FAD19-F282-4664-9E43-A2D4BA74DEBC@gmail.com>
 <C5BEC8EE-1576-4214-89F0-28CAC27F514E@electricdruid.net>
 <83d0b539dc9f6b301a792875dc95d305@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <78614aa800ab4f84ac1bc02cd9da7111@futurehorizons.com>


> But of course you can't actually get any of these during the current chip shortage!  Something that's causing us a bit of head scratching at the moment.

Have a look at the Gainsil catalogue (through Google translate).   They don't quite match LTC's specs on MHz/uA (about 2:1), but they do work down to 1.8V.  I've used them on several products as they are easy to buy online at LCSC or Alibaba.

Cosine Semiconductor is another Chinese opamp supplier which have some better parts, but not all of them are available online to ship abroad.  Again they use about twice the power of LTC/MHz.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk
Sent: 14 January 2022 10:39
To: Tom Wiltshire
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

Linear Technology (now part of Analog Devices) make some pretty neat low-voltage low-power rail-to-rail input/output op-amps...

LTC6261 (30MHz GBP for 245uA supply current)
LTC6255 (6.5MHz GBP for 65uA supply current)
LTC6258 (1.3MHz GBP for 20uA supply current)

We use these at work for various underwater acoustics stuff with just 2.5V supply, but they are fully spec'ed down to 1.8V supply!

I don't know what tricks LT used in their design, but they are quite unique in terms of RRIO and the gain-bandwidth product that you get per microamp spent on quiescent supply current.  Just looking down LT/AD's combined op-amp product range, nothing else comes close to these in terms of GBP per mA.

But of course you can't actually get any of these during the current chip shortage!  Something that's causing us a bit of head scratching at the moment.

-Richie,




On 2022-01-13 19:13, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> MCP6002 might be a modern op-amp, but the specs read like a 741. It's 
> designed for rail-to-rail use at 5V, but I don't think they had audio 
> in mind!
> 
> Not that I'm criticising your choice. I've used it too in similar 
> situations for the same reasons.
> 
>> On 13 Jan 2022, at 18:42, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have dug into this some.
>> 
>> I built a VCO, VCF, and VCA from LM13700s running at 3.3V. While it 
>> was what I'd call "a little bit noisy", they sound "old" which to me 
>> often equates to "good"
>> 
>> I'd say build something and determine if it is too noisy. I used
>> MCP6002 op amps and LM13700.
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy 
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Synths generally run off 15V or 12V power rails, which among others 
>>> helps with SNR. However, it creates a bunch of power dissipation, 
>>> plus you can't use some of the tiniest components. Does it make 
>>> sense to build synthesizer circuits that run on much lower voltages 
>>> than that?
>>> Say, 1.5V rails? Are there techniques of suppressing noise that are 
>>> better than just ramping up the voltage rails? Have the parts 
>>> progressed enough nowadays that we can do this?
>>> 
>>> Never mind stuff like interfacing with existing modular synthesizer 
>>> parts etc. Let's say you're building a modern 8-voice polysynth with
>>> 4
>>> VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV, LFO per voice. Obviously that would generate 
>>> loads of heat and possibly tuning issues given the constraints of a 
>>> keyboard, plus it would be huge, especially given the size of 
>>> capacitors vs their rated voltage.
>>> 
>>> Where would noise creep in first if you started lowering rail 
>>> voltage in your synthesizer designs? What other disadvantages in 
>>> terms of signal integrity come from using low voltage rails for synths?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 12:19:22 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:19:22 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>

Cut out the middle bit :-)

BD28623MUV<https://www.rohm.com/products/audio-video/audio-amplifiers/speaker-amplifiers/bd28623muv-product>

These modulate the PDM directly from the I2S input, so there's no analogue on-chip at all.

TI, ST, NXP and Infineon have similar parts for different power levels.


From: Tom Wiltshire [mailto:tom at electricdruid.net]
Sent: 14 January 2022 10:27
To: cheater cheater; cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Cc: Mike Bryant
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

I'd guess:

DAC -> Class D amp -> Outside world.

Not a lot of scope for noise in that very short signal chain.



On 13 Jan 2022, at 23:45, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:

I wonder what's being used in places like
mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

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From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Jan 14 12:27:58 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:27:58 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>

Fantastic! Even less chance of any noise!

So Cheater is looking for ways to do low voltage audio with low noise and distortion, and all the examples we're finding are...digital!?! It's not really a surprise, is it?

> On 14 Jan 2022, at 11:19, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> Cut out the middle bit :-)
>  
> BD28623MUV <https://www.rohm.com/products/audio-video/audio-amplifiers/speaker-amplifiers/bd28623muv-product>
>  
> These modulate the PDM directly from the I2S input, so there?s no analogue on-chip at all.
>  
> TI, ST, NXP and Infineon have similar parts for different power levels.
>  
>  
> From: Tom Wiltshire [mailto:tom at electricdruid.net] 
> Sent: 14 January 2022 10:27
> To: cheater cheater; cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Cc: Mike Bryant
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>  
> I'd guess:
>  
> DAC -> Class D amp -> Outside world.
>  
> Not a lot of scope for noise in that very short signal chain.
>  
> 
> 
> On 13 Jan 2022, at 23:45, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>  
> I wonder what's being used in places like
> mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
> +/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 12:33:06 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:33:06 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>

So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,
which subsequently proceeded to smolder, melt, and deform, almost
causing a fire. I guess you don't think about wall socket power
ratings when your central heating goes out. I've smelled the telltale
smell of something smoldering for a few days, but I couldn't quite
localize it. I checked the cable, and it was warm, but there are a few
warm cables in my house and they're fine, so I assumed this was fine.
I had to dig down to the actual plug and socket (conveniently located
under a few cardboard boxes by the way) in order to find the
following.

https://imgur.com/gallery/FhQWHh3

One thing that'll "get you" is that this has been running like that
for months now, and only this week has it started making funny smells.
It's good to know about things that'll "get you" like that.
Expectation would be that if it works at first, it'll just keep
working, because how can a plug in a socket go from perfectly fine to
bad enough after months of being used in equal manner? Turns out this
expectation was not correct.

I had to use (VDE) pliers to get the contacts out, and they made a
nice crunchy sound on their way out. Of course I shut off the breaker
first. The contacts are nice and oxidized from the heat, all the way
to blue and brown.

BTW, Schuko are rated to 16A only. Go figure.


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 12:37:52 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:37:52 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>

Yeah :-)

Not really sure what people have against digital nowadays as you can model any sound you want accurately in digital.  If you want a particular distortion, just model it.   Far easier than playing with random biases on obsolete transistors trying to get a particular nuance to the sound.

Cost is usually always lower as well.  Somebody showed a design with the STM32H750 the other day which I often use, and if you need about ten times that processing power the Pi CM4 range (when available) gives you almost 10 billion 64 bit instructions/second.

I guess it?s just the maths that scares people off.



From: Tom Wiltshire [mailto:tom at electricdruid.net]
Sent: 14 January 2022 11:28
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: cheater cheater; cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

Fantastic! Even less chance of any noise!

So Cheater is looking for ways to do low voltage audio with low noise and distortion, and all the examples we're finding are...digital!?! It's not really a surprise, is it?


On 14 Jan 2022, at 11:19, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:

Cut out the middle bit :-)

BD28623MUV<https://www.rohm.com/products/audio-video/audio-amplifiers/speaker-amplifiers/bd28623muv-product>

These modulate the PDM directly from the I2S input, so there?s no analogue on-chip at all.

TI, ST, NXP and Infineon have similar parts for different power levels.


From: Tom Wiltshire [mailto:tom at electricdruid.net]
Sent: 14 January 2022 10:27
To: cheater cheater; cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Cc: Mike Bryant
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

I'd guess:

DAC -> Class D amp -> Outside world.

Not a lot of scope for noise in that very short signal chain.




On 13 Jan 2022, at 23:45, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:

I wonder what's being used in places like
mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

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From dh at atoav.com  Fri Jan 14 13:30:38 2022
From: dh at atoav.com (dh at atoav.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:30:38 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2a8c8acd-a9d2-aaca-c12c-687aa5f6b30b@atoav.com>



On 14/01/2022 12:33, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> BTW, Schuko are rated to 16A only. Go figure.

Most Schukos are actually rated for just 10 A continuous use. With
"continuous use" the norm means anything longer than one hour. If your
socket is old and the contacts oxidized, this can be lower. If
everything is new, you can also draw the full 16A for more than an hour
in practise, but 10A is what most household Schuko wall sockets are
rated at.

Also: The plugs on the other side also need to be rated that high, they
are often rated lower as well.

Source: I am a certified VEFK, so i had to learn the VDE norms (yeah,
all of them).


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 13:42:06 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:42:06 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0025c728c2e70f3863721b267836f610@richieburnett.co.uk>

Ouch! (>.<)  Once high-current connectors start to fail, you get 
oxidation, the contact resistance increases further, they get even 
hotter, and the process quickly accelerates (>.<)   Stay safe.

-Richie,




On 2022-01-14 11:33, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
> months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,
> which subsequently proceeded to smolder, melt, and deform, almost
> causing a fire. I guess you don't think about wall socket power
> ratings when your central heating goes out. I've smelled the telltale
> smell of something smoldering for a few days, but I couldn't quite
> localize it. I checked the cable, and it was warm, but there are a few
> warm cables in my house and they're fine, so I assumed this was fine.
> I had to dig down to the actual plug and socket (conveniently located
> under a few cardboard boxes by the way) in order to find the
> following.
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/FhQWHh3
> 
> One thing that'll "get you" is that this has been running like that
> for months now, and only this week has it started making funny smells.
> It's good to know about things that'll "get you" like that.
> Expectation would be that if it works at first, it'll just keep
> working, because how can a plug in a socket go from perfectly fine to
> bad enough after months of being used in equal manner? Turns out this
> expectation was not correct.
> 
> I had to use (VDE) pliers to get the contacts out, and they made a
> nice crunchy sound on their way out. Of course I shut off the breaker
> first. The contacts are nice and oxidized from the heat, all the way
> to blue and brown.
> 
> BTW, Schuko are rated to 16A only. Go figure.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Fri Jan 14 14:55:14 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:55:14 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:33:06PM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
> months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,

18A is somewhat and 26A is grossly out of spec for Schuko.

If you're going to pull that kind of power you need to look into getting a dedicated circuit and IEC60309 sockets fitted.  We use the 16A version for our "small" cabinets (where they mostly just power a single 24V rackmount PSU, with extra "UK plug" BS1363 sockets for plugging in test equipment.  For our server cabs we use the 32A version.

You might want to use the 32A version, too.

-- 
Gordonjcp



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 16:11:53 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 15:11:53 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <2337ded2ccdd43fc87520f020d6df29b@futurehorizons.com>

26 Amps is also marginal for the house wiring in many European countries.    Europeans never did understand the advantages of UK ring mains which are of course compulsory here in most situations :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
Sent: 14 January 2022 13:55
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:33:06PM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for 
> months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,

18A is somewhat and 26A is grossly out of spec for Schuko.

If you're going to pull that kind of power you need to look into getting a dedicated circuit and IEC60309 sockets fitted.  We use the 16A version for our "small" cabinets (where they mostly just power a single 24V rackmount PSU, with extra "UK plug" BS1363 sockets for plugging in test equipment.  For our server cabs we use the 32A version.

You might want to use the 32A version, too.

--
Gordonjcp

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 17:11:17 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:11:17 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>

With low voltage rails you might run into trouble with resonant state
variable filters, where the passband remains constant but the resonant band
is boosted with increasing resonance.

MC

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 6:44 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> Yeah :-)
>
>
>
> Not really sure what people have against digital nowadays as you can model
> any sound you want accurately in digital.  If you want a particular
> distortion, just model it.   Far easier than playing with random biases on
> obsolete transistors trying to get a particular nuance to the sound.
>
>
>
> Cost is usually always lower as well.  Somebody showed a design with the
> STM32H750 the other day which I often use, and if you need about ten times
> that processing power the Pi CM4 range (when available) gives you almost 10
> billion 64 bit instructions/second.
>
>
>
> I guess it?s just the maths that scares people off.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Tom Wiltshire [mailto:tom at electricdruid.net]
> *Sent:* 14 January 2022 11:28
> *To:* Mike Bryant
> *Cc:* cheater cheater; cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
>
>
> Fantastic! Even less chance of any noise!
>
>
>
> So Cheater is looking for ways to do low voltage audio with low noise and
> distortion, and all the examples we're finding are...digital!?! It's not
> really a surprise, is it?
>
>
>
> On 14 Jan 2022, at 11:19, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Cut out the middle bit :-)
>
>
>
> BD28623MUV
> <https://www.rohm.com/products/audio-video/audio-amplifiers/speaker-amplifiers/bd28623muv-product>
>
>
>
> These modulate the PDM directly from the I2S input, so there?s no analogue
> on-chip at all.
>
>
>
> TI, ST, NXP and Infineon have similar parts for different power levels.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Tom Wiltshire [mailto:tom at electricdruid.net
> <tom at electricdruid.net>]
> *Sent:* 14 January 2022 10:27
> *To:* cheater cheater; cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> *Cc:* Mike Bryant
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
>
>
> I'd guess:
>
>
>
> DAC -> Class D amp -> Outside world.
>
>
>
> Not a lot of scope for noise in that very short signal chain.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 13 Jan 2022, at 23:45, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> I wonder what's being used in places like
> mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
> +/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From chromatest at azburners.org  Fri Jan 14 17:13:20 2022
From: chromatest at azburners.org (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:13:20 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <2337ded2ccdd43fc87520f020d6df29b@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>
 <2337ded2ccdd43fc87520f020d6df29b@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm in the US, and I've done extensive house wiring here, but I know
nothing about what is acceptable or even legal in other countries.

In the US, we run 120V for regular wall outlets.  The regular receptacles
are rated at 15A.  The wiring needs to be rated for at least 15A, and the
fuse/breaker can be rated no higher than the rating of the smallest wiring
conductor between the breaker and outlets.  This is typically 14 gauge
(with a 15A breaker) or 12 Gauge (with a 20A) breaker.  That breaker
typically supplies *multiple* 15A receptacles, with the idea that they
aren't going to all draw their rated maximum at the same time (if ever).
And if they do, the breaker trips or the fuse blows to protect the wiring.

So my question is, do other countries allow wiring with oversized
breakers?  Why didn't Cheater's fuse/breaker save the day?  I would expect
breakers in 240V countries to be even smaller thanks to Mr. Ohm.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> 26 Amps is also marginal for the house wiring in many European countries.
>   Europeans never did understand the advantages of UK ring mains which are
> of course compulsory here in most situations :-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> Gordonjcp
> Sent: 14 January 2022 13:55
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:33:06PM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> wrote:
> > So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
> > months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,
>
> 18A is somewhat and 26A is grossly out of spec for Schuko.
>
> If you're going to pull that kind of power you need to look into getting a
> dedicated circuit and IEC60309 sockets fitted.  We use the 16A version for
> our "small" cabinets (where they mostly just power a single 24V rackmount
> PSU, with extra "UK plug" BS1363 sockets for plugging in test equipment.
> For our server cabs we use the 32A version.
>
> You might want to use the 32A version, too.
>
> --
> Gordonjcp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 17:23:33 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:23:33 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>
 <2337ded2ccdd43fc87520f020d6df29b@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8bfdf2a8a95a4a00a2d75ad0f5366366@futurehorizons.com>

In the UK each non-lighting breaker (usually rated at 30 amps), feeds two 2.5mm twin and earth cables, each rated at 23Amps which form a loop around all the sockets with the zone of that breaker.  So each socket has 46 Amps of cable capacity backing it up.

Whereas in the point to point wiring favoured on the continent there is only 23 Amps capacity in the single cable feed, which is why I said 26 Amps is to say the least marginal.


From: Chromatest J. Pantsmaker [mailto:chromatest at azburners.org]
Sent: 14 January 2022 16:13
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Gordonjcp; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA

I'm in the US, and I've done extensive house wiring here, but I know nothing about what is acceptable or even legal in other countries.

In the US, we run 120V for regular wall outlets.  The regular receptacles are rated at 15A.  The wiring needs to be rated for at least 15A, and the fuse/breaker can be rated no higher than the rating of the smallest wiring conductor between the breaker and outlets.  This is typically 14 gauge (with a 15A breaker) or 12 Gauge (with a 20A) breaker.  That breaker typically supplies *multiple* 15A receptacles, with the idea that they aren't going to all draw their rated maximum at the same time (if ever).  And if they do, the breaker trips or the fuse blows to protect the wiring.

So my question is, do other countries allow wiring with oversized breakers?  Why didn't Cheater's fuse/breaker save the day?  I would expect breakers in 240V countries to be even smaller thanks to Mr. Ohm.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
26 Amps is also marginal for the house wiring in many European countries.    Europeans never did understand the advantages of UK ring mains which are of course compulsory here in most situations :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
Sent: 14 January 2022 13:55
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:33:06PM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
> months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,

18A is somewhat and 26A is grossly out of spec for Schuko.

If you're going to pull that kind of power you need to look into getting a dedicated circuit and IEC60309 sockets fitted.  We use the 16A version for our "small" cabinets (where they mostly just power a single 24V rackmount PSU, with extra "UK plug" BS1363 sockets for plugging in test equipment.  For our server cabs we use the 32A version.

You might want to use the 32A version, too.

--
Gordonjcp

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
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From vladoman at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 17:58:53 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 17:58:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f4609fb7-bbfe-3812-387c-3bab9635fdca@gmail.com>

On 14.01.22 12:33, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
> months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,

> https://imgur.com/gallery/FhQWHh3

sometimes its not the load though :)

https://imgur.com/a/YQInLk8


From dh at atoav.com  Fri Jan 14 18:05:44 2022
From: dh at atoav.com (dh at atoav.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:05:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>
 <2337ded2ccdd43fc87520f020d6df29b@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fa53cd9e-cd13-033f-c5eb-5a43db659e8d@atoav.com>



On 14/01/2022 17:13, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> So my question is, do other countries allow wiring with oversized
> breakers?? Why didn't Cheater's fuse/breaker save the day?? I would
> expect breakers in 240V countries to be even smaller thanks to Mr. Ohm.

In Germany 16 A breakers per circuit are mandatory since (I think) 2006
in domestic households. Legally you are allowed to not have them if it
is a old building that was built in a lawful way back in the day. As
soon as you change something (or the usage changes) you have to update tho.

In cheaters situation the usage changed massively, so legally he would
have been required to update his flats/houses electricity with 16A breakers.


From mr at analogue.org  Fri Jan 14 21:34:42 2022
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 21:34:42 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>

cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> skrev:

 I wonder what's being used in places like
mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.


I've used some mobile codec from Dialog to pump up the jam in a low-voltage
application with mainly positive supplies, check out their stuff for some
typical insight.

Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> skrev:

Nowadays mobile phone amplifiers are all digital - the digital audio (I2S
possibly) digital signal is converted to a PDM signal which drives a class
D amplifier and a simple LC reconstruction filter on the output.
Some years ago they did use DACs (e.g. Wolfson devices) followed by a Class
D amp, until someone realised going digital -> analogue -> digital ->
analogue was a nonsense.


But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)

/mr
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 21:58:44 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 20:58:44 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>

?  But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)


Mine aren?t !  STM32F730 MCU driving an IRF2003 driving pairs of paralleled n type power MOSFETs (I use F20N60s).  Voltages might vary but most definitely ON or OFF :-)
A small calibration signal is taken back to the STM32?s A-D to model the output stage behaviour, but this isn?t used in real time, i.e. no negative feedback.


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Mattias Rickardsson
Sent: 14 January 2022 20:35
To: Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> skrev:
 I wonder what's being used in places like
mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

I've used some mobile codec from Dialog to pump up the jam in a low-voltage application with mainly positive supplies, check out their stuff for some typical insight.

Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> skrev:
Nowadays mobile phone amplifiers are all digital - the digital audio (I2S possibly) digital signal is converted to a PDM signal which drives a class D amplifier and a simple LC reconstruction filter on the output.
Some years ago they did use DACs (e.g. Wolfson devices) followed by a Class D amp, until someone realised going digital -> analogue -> digital -> analogue was a nonsense.

But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)

/mr

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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 14 23:09:11 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 23:09:11 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>
 <2337ded2ccdd43fc87520f020d6df29b@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V---jBE=YCOS4-6dYEudXnq_fTv_Kt1NKtjJGdnpLNi9bQ@mail.gmail.com>

The breaker is rated 12A. I can get it to trip at 34A. I think that's
all that needs to be said.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 5:22 PM Chromatest J. Pantsmaker
<chromatest at azburners.org> wrote:
>
> I'm in the US, and I've done extensive house wiring here, but I know nothing about what is acceptable or even legal in other countries.
>
> In the US, we run 120V for regular wall outlets.  The regular receptacles are rated at 15A.  The wiring needs to be rated for at least 15A, and the fuse/breaker can be rated no higher than the rating of the smallest wiring conductor between the breaker and outlets.  This is typically 14 gauge (with a 15A breaker) or 12 Gauge (with a 20A) breaker.  That breaker typically supplies *multiple* 15A receptacles, with the idea that they aren't going to all draw their rated maximum at the same time (if ever).  And if they do, the breaker trips or the fuse blows to protect the wiring.
>
> So my question is, do other countries allow wiring with oversized breakers?  Why didn't Cheater's fuse/breaker save the day?  I would expect breakers in 240V countries to be even smaller thanks to Mr. Ohm.
>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>
>> 26 Amps is also marginal for the house wiring in many European countries.    Europeans never did understand the advantages of UK ring mains which are of course compulsory here in most situations :-)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
>> Sent: 14 January 2022 13:55
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:33:06PM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
>> > So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
>> > months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,
>>
>> 18A is somewhat and 26A is grossly out of spec for Schuko.
>>
>> If you're going to pull that kind of power you need to look into getting a dedicated circuit and IEC60309 sockets fitted.  We use the 16A version for our "small" cabinets (where they mostly just power a single 24V rackmount PSU, with extra "UK plug" BS1363 sockets for plugging in test equipment.  For our server cabs we use the 32A version.
>>
>> You might want to use the 32A version, too.
>>
>> --
>> Gordonjcp
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mr at analogue.org  Fri Jan 14 23:36:41 2022
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 23:36:41 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBWwTLLuUvU6xfuC9y5VX7hP2L9uDpFjAm1SnV2EnJa8_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Aha, I didn't think it would be called Class-D if it was just shoving out
digital pulses, but maybe it can be either or. :-)

The Wikipedia article on Class-D amps has some interesting passages:


"Terminology
The term "class D" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning a "digital"
amplifier. While some class-D amplifiers may indeed be controlled by
digital circuits or include digital signal processing devices, the power
stage deals with voltage and current as a function of non-quantized time.
The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any
other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the
output signal. The same errors in a digital system will only lead to
incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a
digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities
have no impact on the transmitted signal. Generally, digital signals are
quantized in both amplitude and wavelength, while analog signals are
quantized in one (e.g. PWM) or (usually) neither quantity.

...

Error control
The actual output of the amplifier is not just dependent on the content of
the modulated PWM signal. The power supply voltage directly
amplitude-modulates the output voltage, dead time errors make the output
impedance non-linear and the output filter has a strongly load-dependent
frequency response. An effective way to combat errors, regardless of their
source, is negative feedback. A feedback loop including the output stage
can be made using a simple integrator. To include the output filter, a PID
controller is used, sometimes with additional integrating terms. The need
to feed the actual output signal back into the modulator makes the direct
generation of PWM from a SPDIF source unattractive. Mitigating the same
issues in an amplifier without feedback requires addressing each separately
at the source. Power supply modulation can be partially canceled by
measuring the supply voltage to adjust signal gain before calculating the
PWM and distortion can be reduced by switching faster. The output impedance
cannot be controlled other than through feedback."


(-:

/mr

>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 14 23:48:43 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 22:48:43 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBWwTLLuUvU6xfuC9y5VX7hP2L9uDpFjAm1SnV2EnJa8_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAP92RBWwTLLuUvU6xfuC9y5VX7hP2L9uDpFjAm1SnV2EnJa8_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f57cb1358ce4b4a9aec5dab2f1d805f@futurehorizons.com>

Well Rohm, TI and ST still call this sort of amplifier Class-D so I have as well.  Maybe it should have a new class name to distinguish it from ones with an analogue input and analogue feedback but that?s not something I can secure.

And as the last paragraph shows, Wikipedia is hardly the font of all knowledge, as what they say is ?unattractive? is how the best systems have been doing it for the past 25 years.  The maths is complex ? you need a decent DSP and good modelling ? but it gives a better result.


From: Mattias Rickardsson [mailto:mr at analogue.org]
Sent: 14 January 2022 22:37
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

Aha, I didn't think it would be called Class-D if it was just shoving out digital pulses, but maybe it can be either or. :-)

The Wikipedia article on Class-D amps has some interesting passages:


"Terminology
The term "class D" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning a "digital" amplifier. While some class-D amplifiers may indeed be controlled by digital circuits or include digital signal processing devices, the power stage deals with voltage and current as a function of non-quantized time. The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the output signal. The same errors in a digital system will only lead to incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities have no impact on the transmitted signal. Generally, digital signals are quantized in both amplitude and wavelength, while analog signals are quantized in one (e.g. PWM) or (usually) neither quantity.

...

Error control
The actual output of the amplifier is not just dependent on the content of the modulated PWM signal. The power supply voltage directly amplitude-modulates the output voltage, dead time errors make the output impedance non-linear and the output filter has a strongly load-dependent frequency response. An effective way to combat errors, regardless of their source, is negative feedback. A feedback loop including the output stage can be made using a simple integrator. To include the output filter, a PID controller is used, sometimes with additional integrating terms. The need to feed the actual output signal back into the modulator makes the direct generation of PWM from a SPDIF source unattractive. Mitigating the same issues in an amplifier without feedback requires addressing each separately at the source. Power supply modulation can be partially canceled by measuring the supply voltage to adjust signal gain before calculating the PWM and distortion can be reduced by switching faster. The output impedance cannot be controlled other than through feedback."


(-:

/mr
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From chris at chrismusic.de  Sat Jan 15 00:01:41 2022
From: chris at chrismusic.de (chris)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:01:41 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V---jBE=YCOS4-6dYEudXnq_fTv_Kt1NKtjJGdnpLNi9bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V---jBE=YCOS4-6dYEudXnq_fTv_Kt1NKtjJGdnpLNi9bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220114235819.9073.CHRIS@chrismusic.de>

And we always thought electrolytic caps tolerance was the worst you
could find...

Chris



On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 23:09:11 +0100 cheater cheater via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> The breaker is rated 12A. I can get it to trip at 34A. I think that's
> all that needs to be said.
> 
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 5:22 PM Chromatest J. Pantsmaker
> <chromatest at azburners.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'm in the US, and I've done extensive house wiring here, but I know nothing about what is acceptable or even legal in other countries.
> >
> > In the US, we run 120V for regular wall outlets.  The regular receptacles are rated at 15A.  The wiring needs to be rated for at least 15A, and the fuse/breaker can be rated no higher than the rating of the smallest wiring conductor between the breaker and outlets.  This is typically 14 gauge (with a 15A breaker) or 12 Gauge (with a 20A) breaker.  That breaker typically supplies *multiple* 15A receptacles, with the idea that they aren't going to all draw their rated maximum at the same time (if ever).  And if they do, the breaker trips or the fuse blows to protect the wiring.
> >
> > So my question is, do other countries allow wiring with oversized breakers?  Why didn't Cheater's fuse/breaker save the day?  I would expect breakers in 240V countries to be even smaller thanks to Mr. Ohm.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> 26 Amps is also marginal for the house wiring in many European countries.    Europeans never did understand the advantages of UK ring mains which are of course compulsory here in most situations :-)
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
> >> Sent: 14 January 2022 13:55
> >> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:33:06PM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> >> > So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
> >> > months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,
> >>
> >> 18A is somewhat and 26A is grossly out of spec for Schuko.
> >>
> >> If you're going to pull that kind of power you need to look into getting a dedicated circuit and IEC60309 sockets fitted.  We use the 16A version for our "small" cabinets (where they mostly just power a single 24V rackmount PSU, with extra "UK plug" BS1363 sockets for plugging in test equipment.  For our server cabs we use the 32A version.
> >>
> >> You might want to use the 32A version, too.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Gordonjcp



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan 15 00:33:06 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:33:06 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <8f57cb1358ce4b4a9aec5dab2f1d805f@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAP92RBWwTLLuUvU6xfuC9y5VX7hP2L9uDpFjAm1SnV2EnJa8_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f57cb1358ce4b4a9aec5dab2f1d805f@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8cAPrg5FWFkU2bthSf2L0w4hm56GvmE7S20nuLXi3f6w@mail.gmail.com>

The best Class-D systems in the world are made by Bruno Putzeys at
Purifi and they don't even have digital output.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 11:53 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Well Rohm, TI and ST still call this sort of amplifier Class-D so I have as well.  Maybe it should have a new class name to distinguish it from ones with an analogue input and analogue feedback but that?s not something I can secure.
>
>
>
> And as the last paragraph shows, Wikipedia is hardly the font of all knowledge, as what they say is ?unattractive? is how the best systems have been doing it for the past 25 years.  The maths is complex ? you need a decent DSP and good modelling ? but it gives a better result.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Mattias Rickardsson [mailto:mr at analogue.org]
> Sent: 14 January 2022 22:37
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Synth DIY
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
>
>
> Aha, I didn't think it would be called Class-D if it was just shoving out digital pulses, but maybe it can be either or. :-)
>
>
>
> The Wikipedia article on Class-D amps has some interesting passages:
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terminology
>
> The term "class D" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning a "digital" amplifier. While some class-D amplifiers may indeed be controlled by digital circuits or include digital signal processing devices, the power stage deals with voltage and current as a function of non-quantized time. The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the output signal. The same errors in a digital system will only lead to incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities have no impact on the transmitted signal. Generally, digital signals are quantized in both amplitude and wavelength, while analog signals are quantized in one (e.g. PWM) or (usually) neither quantity.
>
>
>
> ...
>
>
>
> Error control
>
> The actual output of the amplifier is not just dependent on the content of the modulated PWM signal. The power supply voltage directly amplitude-modulates the output voltage, dead time errors make the output impedance non-linear and the output filter has a strongly load-dependent frequency response. An effective way to combat errors, regardless of their source, is negative feedback. A feedback loop including the output stage can be made using a simple integrator. To include the output filter, a PID controller is used, sometimes with additional integrating terms. The need to feed the actual output signal back into the modulator makes the direct generation of PWM from a SPDIF source unattractive. Mitigating the same issues in an amplifier without feedback requires addressing each separately at the source. Power supply modulation can be partially canceled by measuring the supply voltage to adjust signal gain before calculating the PWM and distortion can be reduced by switching faster. The output impedance cannot be controlled other than through feedback."
>
>
>
>
>
> (-:
>
>
>
> /mr
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jan 15 00:37:50 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 23:37:50 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8cAPrg5FWFkU2bthSf2L0w4hm56GvmE7S20nuLXi3f6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAP92RBWwTLLuUvU6xfuC9y5VX7hP2L9uDpFjAm1SnV2EnJa8_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f57cb1358ce4b4a9aec5dab2f1d805f@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-8cAPrg5FWFkU2bthSf2L0w4hm56GvmE7S20nuLXi3f6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b89c46758ea4f10bb5c65bb252c2cac@futurehorizons.com>

Please don't make statements like that that have no form of backup.   There are many superb systems in the world of many differing types, but to call one the best is simply not credible.


-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 14 January 2022 23:33
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Mattias Rickardsson; Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

The best Class-D systems in the world are made by Bruno Putzeys at Purifi and they don't even have digital output.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 11:53 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Well Rohm, TI and ST still call this sort of amplifier Class-D so I have as well.  Maybe it should have a new class name to distinguish it from ones with an analogue input and analogue feedback but that?s not something I can secure.
>
>
>
> And as the last paragraph shows, Wikipedia is hardly the font of all knowledge, as what they say is ?unattractive? is how the best systems have been doing it for the past 25 years.  The maths is complex ? you need a decent DSP and good modelling ? but it gives a better result.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Mattias Rickardsson [mailto:mr at analogue.org]
> Sent: 14 January 2022 22:37
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Synth DIY
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
>
>
> Aha, I didn't think it would be called Class-D if it was just shoving 
> out digital pulses, but maybe it can be either or. :-)
>
>
>
> The Wikipedia article on Class-D amps has some interesting passages:
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terminology
>
> The term "class D" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning a "digital" amplifier. While some class-D amplifiers may indeed be controlled by digital circuits or include digital signal processing devices, the power stage deals with voltage and current as a function of non-quantized time. The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the output signal. The same errors in a digital system will only lead to incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities have no impact on the transmitted signal. Generally, digital signals are quantized in both amplitude and wavelength, while analog signals are quantized in one (e.g. PWM) or (usually) neither quantity.
>
>
>
> ...
>
>
>
> Error control
>
> The actual output of the amplifier is not just dependent on the content of the modulated PWM signal. The power supply voltage directly amplitude-modulates the output voltage, dead time errors make the output impedance non-linear and the output filter has a strongly load-dependent frequency response. An effective way to combat errors, regardless of their source, is negative feedback. A feedback loop including the output stage can be made using a simple integrator. To include the output filter, a PID controller is used, sometimes with additional integrating terms. The need to feed the actual output signal back into the modulator makes the direct generation of PWM from a SPDIF source unattractive. Mitigating the same issues in an amplifier without feedback requires addressing each separately at the source. Power supply modulation can be partially canceled by measuring the supply voltage to adjust signal gain before calculating the PWM and distortion can be reduced by switching faster. The output impedance cannot be controlled other than through feedback."
>
>
>
>
>
> (-:
>
>
>
> /mr
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan 15 01:16:58 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 01:16:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <4b89c46758ea4f10bb5c65bb252c2cac@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAP92RBWwTLLuUvU6xfuC9y5VX7hP2L9uDpFjAm1SnV2EnJa8_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f57cb1358ce4b4a9aec5dab2f1d805f@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-8cAPrg5FWFkU2bthSf2L0w4hm56GvmE7S20nuLXi3f6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b89c46758ea4f10bb5c65bb252c2cac@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--F6R0=gCavS-eghT6kUfApKNvYhdzyQNr8CkmtrUbQ1g@mail.gmail.com>

(mind you, it should have been "input" not "output")

On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 12:37 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Please don't make statements like that that have no form of backup.   There are many superb systems in the world of many differing types, but to call one the best is simply not credible.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 14 January 2022 23:33
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Mattias Rickardsson; Synth DIY
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
> The best Class-D systems in the world are made by Bruno Putzeys at Purifi and they don't even have digital output.
>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 11:53 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well Rohm, TI and ST still call this sort of amplifier Class-D so I have as well.  Maybe it should have a new class name to distinguish it from ones with an analogue input and analogue feedback but that?s not something I can secure.
> >
> >
> >
> > And as the last paragraph shows, Wikipedia is hardly the font of all knowledge, as what they say is ?unattractive? is how the best systems have been doing it for the past 25 years.  The maths is complex ? you need a decent DSP and good modelling ? but it gives a better result.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Mattias Rickardsson [mailto:mr at analogue.org]
> > Sent: 14 January 2022 22:37
> > To: Mike Bryant
> > Cc: Synth DIY
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
> >
> >
> >
> > Aha, I didn't think it would be called Class-D if it was just shoving
> > out digital pulses, but maybe it can be either or. :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > The Wikipedia article on Class-D amps has some interesting passages:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Terminology
> >
> > The term "class D" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning a "digital" amplifier. While some class-D amplifiers may indeed be controlled by digital circuits or include digital signal processing devices, the power stage deals with voltage and current as a function of non-quantized time. The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the output signal. The same errors in a digital system will only lead to incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities have no impact on the transmitted signal. Generally, digital signals are quantized in both amplitude and wavelength, while analog signals are quantized in one (e.g. PWM) or (usually) neither quantity.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...
> >
> >
> >
> > Error control
> >
> > The actual output of the amplifier is not just dependent on the content of the modulated PWM signal. The power supply voltage directly amplitude-modulates the output voltage, dead time errors make the output impedance non-linear and the output filter has a strongly load-dependent frequency response. An effective way to combat errors, regardless of their source, is negative feedback. A feedback loop including the output stage can be made using a simple integrator. To include the output filter, a PID controller is used, sometimes with additional integrating terms. The need to feed the actual output signal back into the modulator makes the direct generation of PWM from a SPDIF source unattractive. Mitigating the same issues in an amplifier without feedback requires addressing each separately at the source. Power supply modulation can be partially canceled by measuring the supply voltage to adjust signal gain before calculating the PWM and distortion can be reduced by switching faster. The output impedance cannot be controlled other than through feedback."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > (-:
> >
> >
> >
> > /mr
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>



From chromatest at azburners.org  Sat Jan 15 01:57:04 2022
From: chromatest at azburners.org (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 17:57:04 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V---jBE=YCOS4-6dYEudXnq_fTv_Kt1NKtjJGdnpLNi9bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>
 <2337ded2ccdd43fc87520f020d6df29b@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V---jBE=YCOS4-6dYEudXnq_fTv_Kt1NKtjJGdnpLNi9bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADpm=3GxUdkAzxTPMWv3nEbqG_QVi30Fq3HcJXw46+Egn1q2Fg@mail.gmail.com>

Clearly the breaker is bad and needs to be replaced before you burn your
house down.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 3:10 PM cheater cheater <cheater00social at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The breaker is rated 12A. I can get it to trip at 34A. I think that's
> all that needs to be said.
>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 5:22 PM Chromatest J. Pantsmaker
> <chromatest at azburners.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'm in the US, and I've done extensive house wiring here, but I know
> nothing about what is acceptable or even legal in other countries.
> >
> > In the US, we run 120V for regular wall outlets.  The regular
> receptacles are rated at 15A.  The wiring needs to be rated for at least
> 15A, and the fuse/breaker can be rated no higher than the rating of the
> smallest wiring conductor between the breaker and outlets.  This is
> typically 14 gauge (with a 15A breaker) or 12 Gauge (with a 20A) breaker.
> That breaker typically supplies *multiple* 15A receptacles, with the idea
> that they aren't going to all draw their rated maximum at the same time (if
> ever).  And if they do, the breaker trips or the fuse blows to protect the
> wiring.
> >
> > So my question is, do other countries allow wiring with oversized
> breakers?  Why didn't Cheater's fuse/breaker save the day?  I would expect
> breakers in 240V countries to be even smaller thanks to Mr. Ohm.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> 26 Amps is also marginal for the house wiring in many European
> countries.    Europeans never did understand the advantages of UK ring
> mains which are of course compulsory here in most situations :-)
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> Gordonjcp
> >> Sent: 14 January 2022 13:55
> >> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:33:06PM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> wrote:
> >> > So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
> >> > months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,
> >>
> >> 18A is somewhat and 26A is grossly out of spec for Schuko.
> >>
> >> If you're going to pull that kind of power you need to look into
> getting a dedicated circuit and IEC60309 sockets fitted.  We use the 16A
> version for our "small" cabinets (where they mostly just power a single 24V
> rackmount PSU, with extra "UK plug" BS1363 sockets for plugging in test
> equipment.  For our server cabs we use the 32A version.
> >>
> >> You might want to use the 32A version, too.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Gordonjcp
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mcbinc at panix.com  Sat Jan 15 03:25:59 2022
From: mcbinc at panix.com (m brandenberg)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 02:25:59 +0000 ()
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2201150224390.24275@panix1.panix.com>

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:

> Expectation would be that if it works at first, it'll just keep
> working, because how can a plug in a socket go from perfectly fine to
> bad enough after months of being used in equal manner? Turns out this
> expectation was not correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance

m


From metadata at gmx.com  Sat Jan 15 06:29:31 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:29:31 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] dragging down op-amp CV output?
Message-ID: <79cd2d71-961d-3e2d-d07f-4a2d14a28c42@gmx.com>

2022 - the future is now!

a pretty basic question, but I'd like to follow best practices. I have a
little envelope generator that outputs 0-5V and the output stage is a
TL074 opamp.

i'd like to send this CV to a few places internally in my project synth
but also have several external output jacks. so my first intuition was
to grab all of those outputs at the output of this single opamp cell,
maybe with a 1K resistor in front of each.

my concern is that if anything unpredictable happens to the external
outputs (like getting grounded while being plugged into a jack or
something) then it will drag down the outputs that are also going
somewhere internally.

i know i can just take the CV and send it through a buffer-follower for
every output i want and definitely be safe. but the design space is
getting a bit cramped and i'm also just curious.

if one of the external outputs does get grounded when sourcing the full
5V it draws 5mA thru the 1k resistor.. can the TL074 handle that? does
it pull the other outputs down, or can it eventually overheat and freak
out? Datasheet suggests that it's meltdown-protected, but I can't see
how much current it can source and maintain the 5V.

thanks for all of the help everyone, and a happy 2022. this mailing list
is a rare truly helpful corners of the internet not attempting to
commodify my attention.

--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Sat Jan 15 06:55:31 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:55:31 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2201150224390.24275@panix1.panix.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.2201150224390.24275@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UDSMTuJrBK=_RuWWQCkJHjDH_toRTryv0Z=o09mROKSww@mail.gmail.com>

Years ago my cousin bought an old fixer-upper mansion that had belonged to
a lawyer who had passed away.

The place was built in the 1920s.  When my cousin showed us the original
fuse panel downstairs, I was shocked to see that they fused not just the
hot but they also FUSED THE NEUTRAL.

That was a fatal shock hazard waiting to happen.  Granted this was before
the separate neutral/ground system for residential wiring was developed,
but fusing the NEUTRAL?!?

This was probably built by an incompetent electrician, and probably before
the city had any enforcement agency such as city inspectors.

Yes my cousin disposed of that fusing system.

MC

MC

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 9:29 PM m brandenberg <mcbinc at panix.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Jan 2022, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
>
> > Expectation would be that if it works at first, it'll just keep
> > working, because how can a plug in a socket go from perfectly fine to
> > bad enough after months of being used in equal manner? Turns out this
> > expectation was not correct.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance
>
> m
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From modular at go2.pl  Sat Jan 15 09:01:39 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 09:01:39 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] dragging down op-amp CV output?
In-Reply-To: <79cd2d71-961d-3e2d-d07f-4a2d14a28c42@gmx.com>
References: <79cd2d71-961d-3e2d-d07f-4a2d14a28c42@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <1832d061-9c54-eb19-e9a1-61fd77071dfa@go2.pl>

If you look under "Maximum peak output voltage swing", you'll find 
+/-10V at 2k load, so that's +/-5V clean wave at 1k in your case.
There's also graph "Maximum Peak Output Voltage vs Load Resistance", 
where you can see exactly that and more (figure 6-45 in my datasheet).

Even if it was 100oh, and indeed while inserting a plug you'd short it 
to GND, and everything goes down, it happens just for a blink of an eye, 
not a big deal IMHO. with 1k you'd have to short 2 jacks to GND at the 
same time. I haven't seen anybody patching 2 patchcords at once. So yes, 
that's good, you're safe with good margin.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-15 o?06:29, Neil Harper via Synth-diy pisze:
> 2022 - the future is now!
>
> a pretty basic question, but I'd like to follow best practices. I have a
> little envelope generator that outputs 0-5V and the output stage is a
> TL074 opamp.
>
> i'd like to send this CV to a few places internally in my project synth
> but also have several external output jacks. so my first intuition was
> to grab all of those outputs at the output of this single opamp cell,
> maybe with a 1K resistor in front of each.
>
> my concern is that if anything unpredictable happens to the external
> outputs (like getting grounded while being plugged into a jack or
> something) then it will drag down the outputs that are also going
> somewhere internally.
>
> i know i can just take the CV and send it through a buffer-follower for
> every output i want and definitely be safe. but the design space is
> getting a bit cramped and i'm also just curious.
>
> if one of the external outputs does get grounded when sourcing the full
> 5V it draws 5mA thru the 1k resistor.. can the TL074 handle that? does
> it pull the other outputs down, or can it eventually overheat and freak
> out? Datasheet suggests that it's meltdown-protected, but I can't see
> how much current it can source and maintain the 5V.
>
> thanks for all of the help everyone, and a happy 2022. this mailing list
> is a rare truly helpful corners of the internet not attempting to
> commodify my attention.
>
> -- 
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From spridley1 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 15 12:12:22 2022
From: spridley1 at gmail.com (S Ridley)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 11:12:22 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V---jBE=YCOS4-6dYEudXnq_fTv_Kt1NKtjJGdnpLNi9bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8zs=RoY-PjO-w4GPkgO6OKQAFKvydcOVdOhG6DEvmeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220114135514.GA6949@gjcp.net>
 <2337ded2ccdd43fc87520f020d6df29b@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADpm=3HqnmJf4r4T+_qq_sbrk1JBjqrc510ac2hF+qZ4gTjuFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V---jBE=YCOS4-6dYEudXnq_fTv_Kt1NKtjJGdnpLNi9bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPgGCk+2MeiWL1zyjqvJLg_YOZdHTjrWYoBygLJh_wSN6cXOww@mail.gmail.com>

 12A breaker is not designed to trip at 12A.   It's trip is designed to
protect a 12A circuit.

It should allow 12A to flow indefinitely, and probably allow higher
currents briefly (e.g. inrush current when you switch things on) but should
trip before other elements in the circuit (wire, connectors) fail.  Here is
a graph of MCB trip characteristics, and you'll see that at 36A it might
still take 5 seconds to trip - maybe longer on a cold day.

https://www.ti-soft.com/img/panelcad/mcb_tripping_iec60898.png

Up to a certain point it's a thermal mechanism, and increasing the current
decreases the trip time.  At high currents, a magnetic mechanism comes in,
and trips PDQ.
The trick is to have a low earth loop impedance so that if you have a
short, sh1tloads of current flows and the trip trips in a very short time.

Steve






<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 at 22:13, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> The breaker is rated 12A. I can get it to trip at 34A. I think that's
> all that needs to be said.
>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 5:22 PM Chromatest J. Pantsmaker
> <chromatest at azburners.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'm in the US, and I've done extensive house wiring here, but I know
> nothing about what is acceptable or even legal in other countries.
> >
> > In the US, we run 120V for regular wall outlets.  The regular
> receptacles are rated at 15A.  The wiring needs to be rated for at least
> 15A, and the fuse/breaker can be rated no higher than the rating of the
> smallest wiring conductor between the breaker and outlets.  This is
> typically 14 gauge (with a 15A breaker) or 12 Gauge (with a 20A) breaker.
> That breaker typically supplies *multiple* 15A receptacles, with the idea
> that they aren't going to all draw their rated maximum at the same time (if
> ever).  And if they do, the breaker trips or the fuse blows to protect the
> wiring.
> >
> > So my question is, do other countries allow wiring with oversized
> breakers?  Why didn't Cheater's fuse/breaker save the day?  I would expect
> breakers in 240V countries to be even smaller thanks to Mr. Ohm.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> 26 Amps is also marginal for the house wiring in many European
> countries.    Europeans never did understand the advantages of UK ring
> mains which are of course compulsory here in most situations :-)
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> Gordonjcp
> >> Sent: 14 January 2022 13:55
> >> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> Subject: Re: [sdiy] OT: Mains Safety PSA
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:33:06PM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> wrote:
> >> > So as recent experience shows, 18 - 26 amps max continuous load for
> >> > months was a tad optimistic for this unknown brand Schuko wall socket,
> >>
> >> 18A is somewhat and 26A is grossly out of spec for Schuko.
> >>
> >> If you're going to pull that kind of power you need to look into
> getting a dedicated circuit and IEC60309 sockets fitted.  We use the 16A
> version for our "small" cabinets (where they mostly just power a single 24V
> rackmount PSU, with extra "UK plug" BS1363 sockets for plugging in test
> equipment.  For our server cabs we use the 32A version.
> >>
> >> You might want to use the 32A version, too.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Gordonjcp
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Sat Jan 15 14:59:49 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 13:59:49 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <w5d5lcw87obopr0mbcybnlp7.1642255189937@email.android.com>

Out of interest, how do you deal with distortion resulting from the load current free-wheeling through the body diodes during the switching dead-time without resorting to the use of global feedback?

This mechanism, and the variations in the frequency response of the output LC filter with different loudspeaker impedances were the two hardest problems to sort out in an "all digital Class-D amplifier" from my limited experience.

BTW, "Class-D" means different things to different people... There are RF power amplifiers used in big broadcast transmitters that use "Class-D" power amplifiers to efficiently generate many kilowatts of carrier power in the low Megahertz range. These switch directly at the RF carrier frequency followed by a filter to yield a nice clean sinusoidal output. They don't use PWM techniques to synthesise analogue waveforms like a Class-D audio amplifier or a motor drive inverter does. (There's also Class E, Class DE etc, used for radio applications like broadcast, induction heating, plasma generation, etc.)

-Richie,

---- Mike Bryant wrote ----

>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jan 15 18:23:21 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 17:23:21 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <w5d5lcw87obopr0mbcybnlp7.1642255189937@email.android.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
 <w5d5lcw87obopr0mbcybnlp7.1642255189937@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <d781b24f9eff4cb99fc7724a39d5a50a@futurehorizons.com>

I thought most high power r.f. transmitters are Class C or Class G/H.  Never heard of one using class D but I suppose it?s possible nowadays.

Can?t say much about our design, but there?s a sprinkling of GaN devices in the right places.

As for the complex impedance of the load, as I said we have to calibrate it, and it?s doing this regularly during operation.  Worst load are actually those piezo tweeters ? they seem to have an ever changing impedance depending on volume, temperature, phase of the moon, what have you.



From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk]
Sent: 15 January 2022 14:00
To: Synth DIY; Mike Bryant
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

Out of interest, how do you deal with distortion resulting from the load current free-wheeling through the body diodes during the switching dead-time without resorting to the use of global feedback?

This mechanism, and the variations in the frequency response of the output LC filter with different loudspeaker impedances were the two hardest problems to sort out in an "all digital Class-D amplifier" from my limited experience.

BTW, "Class-D" means different things to different people... There are RF power amplifiers used in big broadcast transmitters that use "Class-D" power amplifiers to efficiently generate many kilowatts of carrier power in the low Megahertz range. These switch directly at the RF carrier frequency followed by a filter to yield a nice clean sinusoidal output. They don't use PWM techniques to synthesise analogue waveforms like a Class-D audio amplifier or a motor drive inverter does. (There's also Class E, Class DE etc, used for radio applications like broadcast, induction heating, plasma generation, etc.)

-Richie,

---- Mike Bryant wrote ----

>  But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)


Mine aren?t !  STM32F730 MCU driving an IRF2003 driving pairs of paralleled n type power MOSFETs (I use F20N60s).  Voltages might vary but most definitely ON or OFF :-)
A small calibration signal is taken back to the STM32?s A-D to model the output stage behaviour, but this isn?t used in real time, i.e. no negative feedback.


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Mattias Rickardsson
Sent: 14 January 2022 20:35
To: Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> skrev:
 I wonder what's being used in places like
mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

I've used some mobile codec from Dialog to pump up the jam in a low-voltage application with mainly positive supplies, check out their stuff for some typical insight.

Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> skrev:
Nowadays mobile phone amplifiers are all digital - the digital audio (I2S possibly) digital signal is converted to a PDM signal which drives a class D amplifier and a simple LC reconstruction filter on the output.
Some years ago they did use DACs (e.g. Wolfson devices) followed by a Class D amp, until someone realised going digital -> analogue -> digital -> analogue was a nonsense.

But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)

/mr

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From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Sat Jan 15 19:03:56 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 18:03:56 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <d781b24f9eff4cb99fc7724a39d5a50a@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
 <w5d5lcw87obopr0mbcybnlp7.1642255189937@email.android.com>
 <d781b24f9eff4cb99fc7724a39d5a50a@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <t2y0dk2s69myawvvmoh67fk6.1642269836415@email.android.com>

Interesting stuff. I did my MEng thesis on "Switched Mode Audio Amplifiers" (Class-D) but there weren't any silicon carbide or Gallium Nitride semiconductors back then :-(

Switching amps weren't common for audio applications at the time, only for low-frequency really high-powered applications like driving vibrating tables!

It's interesting to see how the technology has moved forward in the last 25 years!

-Richie,

Sent from my Xperia SP on O2

---- Mike Bryant wrote ----

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>
>I thought most high power r.f. transmitters are Class C or Class G/H.? Never heard of one using class D but I suppose it?s possible nowadays.
>
>?
>
>Can?t say much about our design, but there?s a sprinkling of GaN devices in the right places.
>
>?
>
>As for the complex impedance of the load, as I said we have to calibrate it, and it?s doing this regularly during operation.? Worst load are actually those piezo tweeters ? they seem to have an ever changing impedance depending on volume, temperature, phase of the moon, what have you.
>
>?
>
>?
>
>?
>
>From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk] 
>Sent: 15 January 2022 14:00
>To: Synth DIY; Mike Bryant
>Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
>?
>
>Out of interest, how do you deal with distortion resulting from the load current free-wheeling through the body diodes during the switching dead-time without resorting to the use of global feedback?
>
>This mechanism, and the variations in the frequency response of the output LC filter with different loudspeaker impedances were the two hardest problems to sort out in an "all digital Class-D amplifier" from my limited experience.
>
>BTW, "Class-D" means different things to different people... There are RF power amplifiers used in big broadcast transmitters that use "Class-D" power amplifiers to efficiently generate many kilowatts of carrier power in the low Megahertz range. These switch directly at the RF carrier frequency followed by a filter to yield a nice clean sinusoidal output. They don't use PWM techniques to synthesise analogue waveforms like a Class-D audio amplifier or a motor drive inverter does. (There's also Class E, Class DE etc, used for radio applications like broadcast, induction heating, plasma generation, etc.)
>
>-Richie,
>
>---- Mike Bryant wrote ----
>
>?? But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)
>
>?
>
>Mine aren?t !? STM32F730 MCU driving an IRF2003 driving pairs of paralleled n type power MOSFETs (I use F20N60s).? Voltages might vary but most definitely ON or OFF :-)
>
>A small calibration signal is taken back to the STM32?s A-D to model the output stage behaviour, but this isn?t used in real time, i.e. no negative feedback.
>
>?
>
>?
>
>From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Mattias Rickardsson
>Sent: 14 January 2022 20:35
>To: Synth DIY
>Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
>
>?
>
>cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> skrev:
>
>?I wonder what's being used in places like
>mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
>+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.
>
>?
>
>I've used some mobile codec from Dialog to pump up the jam in a low-voltage application with mainly positive supplies, check out their stuff for some typical insight.
>
>?
>
>Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> skrev:
>
>Nowadays mobile phone amplifiers are all digital - the digital audio (I2S possibly) digital signal is converted to a PDM signal which drives a class D amplifier and a simple LC reconstruction filter on the output.
>Some years ago they did use DACs (e.g. Wolfson devices) followed by a Class D amp, until someone realised going digital -> analogue -> digital -> analogue was a nonsense.
>
>?
>
>But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)
>
>?
>
>/mr
>
>?
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jan 15 20:57:02 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 19:57:02 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <t2y0dk2s69myawvvmoh67fk6.1642269836415@email.android.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D824F4B3-4679-4215-8CF7-EDF37B8D59A4@electricdruid.net>
 <f18a830114c84215a526e2f266122da5@futurehorizons.com>
 <49DE34AF-E011-407B-B99A-4B54FB9E7D57@electricdruid.net>
 <8ecdd1dd05614d6983e2fd9cefbf32cf@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCzKVjVpYXVN8X4Pt3Pk8Tp9z0Xr4Ky6YQD5n1FZ0THzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP92RBXdWnhD-o3X-Ct=FrFGqJ8jA+iX1Uc3bp92q7Qgsi+=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bcf7706dfe04277944abb50f52e1892@futurehorizons.com>
 <w5d5lcw87obopr0mbcybnlp7.1642255189937@email.android.com>
 <d781b24f9eff4cb99fc7724a39d5a50a@futurehorizons.com>
 <t2y0dk2s69myawvvmoh67fk6.1642269836415@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <9d870d9eb735437ab24f5ee26be6577d@futurehorizons.com>


The first amp I ever bought was Class D ? in 1968.  The Sinclair (as in Clive) X25 I think it was called.  Died and had it replaced twice then swapped for their class AB design which lasted a bit longer.

But yes GaN has gone from nowhere to everywhere in a few years.  Even your phone charger possibly has it in.


From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk]
Sent: 15 January 2022 18:04
To: Synth DIY; Mike Bryant
Subject: RE: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

Interesting stuff. I did my MEng thesis on "Switched Mode Audio Amplifiers" (Class-D) but there weren't any silicon carbide or Gallium Nitride semiconductors back then :-(

Switching amps weren't common for audio applications at the time, only for low-frequency really high-powered applications like driving vibrating tables!

It's interesting to see how the technology has moved forward in the last 25 years!

-Richie,

Sent from my Xperia SP on O2

---- Mike Bryant wrote ----
I thought most high power r.f. transmitters are Class C or Class G/H.  Never heard of one using class D but I suppose it?s possible nowadays.

Can?t say much about our design, but there?s a sprinkling of GaN devices in the right places.

As for the complex impedance of the load, as I said we have to calibrate it, and it?s doing this regularly during operation.  Worst load are actually those piezo tweeters ? they seem to have an ever changing impedance depending on volume, temperature, phase of the moon, what have you.



From: Richie Burnett [mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk]
Sent: 15 January 2022 14:00
To: Synth DIY; Mike Bryant
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

Out of interest, how do you deal with distortion resulting from the load current free-wheeling through the body diodes during the switching dead-time without resorting to the use of global feedback?

This mechanism, and the variations in the frequency response of the output LC filter with different loudspeaker impedances were the two hardest problems to sort out in an "all digital Class-D amplifier" from my limited experience.

BTW, "Class-D" means different things to different people... There are RF power amplifiers used in big broadcast transmitters that use "Class-D" power amplifiers to efficiently generate many kilowatts of carrier power in the low Megahertz range. These switch directly at the RF carrier frequency followed by a filter to yield a nice clean sinusoidal output. They don't use PWM techniques to synthesise analogue waveforms like a Class-D audio amplifier or a motor drive inverter does. (There's also Class E, Class DE etc, used for radio applications like broadcast, induction heating, plasma generation, etc.)

-Richie,

---- Mike Bryant wrote ----

>  But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)


Mine aren?t !  STM32F730 MCU driving an IRF2003 driving pairs of paralleled n type power MOSFETs (I use F20N60s).  Voltages might vary but most definitely ON or OFF :-)
A small calibration signal is taken back to the STM32?s A-D to model the output stage behaviour, but this isn?t used in real time, i.e. no negative feedback.


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Mattias Rickardsson
Sent: 14 January 2022 20:35
To: Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Low voltage synthesis?

cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> skrev:
 I wonder what's being used in places like
mobile phones or wireless earbuds for example, they can't be running
+/-5V op amps or LV op amps with major crossover distortion.

I've used some mobile codec from Dialog to pump up the jam in a low-voltage application with mainly positive supplies, check out their stuff for some typical insight.

Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> skrev:
Nowadays mobile phone amplifiers are all digital - the digital audio (I2S possibly) digital signal is converted to a PDM signal which drives a class D amplifier and a simple LC reconstruction filter on the output.
Some years ago they did use DACs (e.g. Wolfson devices) followed by a Class D amp, until someone realised going digital -> analogue -> digital -> analogue was a nonsense.

But Class D amps are analog, right? :-)

/mr

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From metadata at gmx.com  Sat Jan 15 23:05:22 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 17:05:22 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] dragging down op-amp CV output?
In-Reply-To: <1832d061-9c54-eb19-e9a1-61fd77071dfa@go2.pl>
References: <79cd2d71-961d-3e2d-d07f-4a2d14a28c42@gmx.com>
 <1832d061-9c54-eb19-e9a1-61fd77071dfa@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <6e421c62-1f3a-5cfa-4b4e-afdb8756e0f4@gmx.com>



On 1/15/22 3:01 AM, Roman Sowa wrote:
> If you look under "Maximum peak output voltage swing", you'll find
> +/-10V at 2k load, so that's +/-5V clean wave at 1k in your case.
> There's also graph "Maximum Peak Output Voltage vs Load Resistance",
> where you can see exactly that and more (figure 6-45 in my datasheet).
>
> Even if it was 100oh, and indeed while inserting a plug you'd short it
> to GND, and everything goes down, it happens just for a blink of an eye,
> not a big deal IMHO. with 1k you'd have to short 2 jacks to GND at the
> same time. I haven't seen anybody patching 2 patchcords at once. So yes,
> that's good, you're safe with good margin.

thanks Roman, I see  those graphs now in the TI datasheet. Very
interesting..

is there any merit to keeping the outside-world facing outputs on their
own buffer in case of any other sort of user error? i'm thinking like
static discharge or who-knows-what (connect it to another input, etc)..
is there any failure modes that would just kill the opamp cell, or would
it just bonk the entire chip anyways.

i gotta be honest, i can't say I've ever killed a TL074 with manhandling
and breadboarding, etc. SSI2164's on the other hand, i've had a few of
those suddenly not work and the problem has always been isolated to a
single cell.



--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Sun Jan 16 00:59:28 2022
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 17:59:28 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Seeking Dave Hylander....
Message-ID: <CACodTR8BP3UycUf6hryuBMzepxJ=7b30p8QixK7zAaj3sL-khQ@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know if it is possible, and if so, how I might contact Dave
Hylander?

I'm building a Miniwave with Expander, and just realized that the expander
PCB revision I have is the OG version.  I have a 2003, it looks like the
2004 version is much improved (e.g. places for bypass caps for the PROMs
etc).  I'd like to buy one of the newer revision.

His earthlink web page is still up, but the email address provided (
expander at hylander.com) no longer works.

Failing that, if anyone else has one of these 2004 revision boards
languishing in your backlog, I'd be interested to buy it (though... I have
all the other parts, the Blacet MOTM kit and the daughterboard for the LEDs
and CV switching.... I can see how selling one without the others might be
troublesome, but let's talk anyway).

Thanks

Pete
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From topylista1 at topybear.hu  Sun Jan 16 19:12:30 2022
From: topylista1 at topybear.hu (Topybear)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 19:12:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Seeking Dave Hylander....
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR8BP3UycUf6hryuBMzepxJ=7b30p8QixK7zAaj3sL-khQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACodTR8BP3UycUf6hryuBMzepxJ=7b30p8QixK7zAaj3sL-khQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97663473-69f8-838e-0575-ba0881496dae@topybear.hu>

Try this: info at hylander.com !

Topy

On 2022. 01. 16. 0:59, Pete Hartman via Synth-diy wrote:
> Does anyone know if it is possible, and if so, how I might contact 
> Dave Hylander?
>
> I'm building a Miniwave with Expander, and just realized that the 
> expander PCB revision I have is the OG version.? I have a 2003, it 
> looks like the 2004 version is much improved (e.g. places for bypass 
> caps for the PROMs etc).? I'd like to buy one of the newer revision.
>
> His earthlink web page is still up, but the email address provided 
> (expander at hylander.com) no longer works.
>
> Failing that, if anyone else has one of these 2004 revision boards 
> languishing in your backlog, I'd be interested to buy it (though... I 
> have all the other parts, the Blacet MOTM kit and the daughterboard 
> for the LEDs and CV switching.... I can see how selling one without 
> the others might be troublesome, but let's talk anyway).
>
> Thanks
>
> Pete
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Usemarketplace at synth-diy.org




From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jan 17 12:29:44 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 12:29:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] dragging down op-amp CV output?
In-Reply-To: <6e421c62-1f3a-5cfa-4b4e-afdb8756e0f4@gmx.com>
References: <79cd2d71-961d-3e2d-d07f-4a2d14a28c42@gmx.com>
 <1832d061-9c54-eb19-e9a1-61fd77071dfa@go2.pl>
 <6e421c62-1f3a-5cfa-4b4e-afdb8756e0f4@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <1a3b4a85-fc88-aabe-1609-69b0ad597c8e@go2.pl>

Sure it is better to keep everything that goes outside on separate 
buffer in separate chip, but you have to evaluate if your circuit is so 
well-thought in every aspect that double buffering will not become silly 
overkill. If you have spare opamp in the package, just go for it, 
there's no quesion about it. If it takes another chip to add, especially 
in limited space, I would call it unncesary waste.

As for ESD and who-knows-what type of events you mention, you have to 
deal with them separately, and not by adding more opamps. Suppression 
diode does the work here.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-15 o?23:05, Neil Harper via Synth-diy pisze:
> 
> 
> On 1/15/22 3:01 AM, Roman Sowa wrote:
>> If you look under "Maximum peak output voltage swing", you'll find
>> +/-10V at 2k load, so that's +/-5V clean wave at 1k in your case.
>> There's also graph "Maximum Peak Output Voltage vs Load Resistance",
>> where you can see exactly that and more (figure 6-45 in my datasheet).
>>
>> Even if it was 100oh, and indeed while inserting a plug you'd short it
>> to GND, and everything goes down, it happens just for a blink of an eye,
>> not a big deal IMHO. with 1k you'd have to short 2 jacks to GND at the
>> same time. I haven't seen anybody patching 2 patchcords at once. So yes,
>> that's good, you're safe with good margin.
> 
> thanks Roman, I see? those graphs now in the TI datasheet. Very
> interesting..
> 
> is there any merit to keeping the outside-world facing outputs on their
> own buffer in case of any other sort of user error? i'm thinking like
> static discharge or who-knows-what (connect it to another input, etc)..
> is there any failure modes that would just kill the opamp cell, or would
> it just bonk the entire chip anyways.
> 
> i gotta be honest, i can't say I've ever killed a TL074 with manhandling
> and breadboarding, etc. SSI2164's on the other hand, i've had a few of
> those suddenly not work and the problem has always been isolated to a
> single cell.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From francesco.mulassano at gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 12:44:49 2022
From: francesco.mulassano at gmail.com (francesco mulassano)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 12:44:49 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
Message-ID: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for Panels
Design!
Download here https://synthpanels.design
User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual

*Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022*

Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in 1.2-dev)

PANELS
- Removed VCV Rack Panel

KNOBS SCALE
- Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and End
Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively
- Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of the
main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic
compositions of ticks
- LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I
found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating
new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING
CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into
production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position
on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating
only the layers we need.

SLIDER SCALE
- LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN
(to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the
electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by
activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

JACK
- Improved parameters
- LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN
(to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the
electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by
activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
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From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Mon Jan 17 16:20:19 2022
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:20:19 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
In-Reply-To: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d80bb5$bd7076c0$38516440$@oricom.ca>

> Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2

The only available version of Inkscape is 1.1.1 so.. not compatible with SPD 1.5

 

 

De : Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> De la part de francesco mulassano via Synth-diy
Envoy? : 17 janvier 2022 06:45
? : SYNTH DIY <Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Objet : [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!

 

Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for Panels Design!
Download here https://synthpanels.design
User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual 

Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022

Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in 1.2-dev)

PANELS
- Removed VCV Rack Panel

KNOBS SCALE
- Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and End Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively 
- Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of the main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic compositions of ticks
- LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

SLIDER SCALE
- LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

JACK
- Improved parameters 
- LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

 

 

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From matti.palm at gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 16:31:16 2022
From: matti.palm at gmail.com (Matti Palm)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:31:16 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
In-Reply-To: <000001d80bb5$bd7076c0$38516440$@oricom.ca>
References: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d80bb5$bd7076c0$38516440$@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <CAO0fyTPnE5TdRkg=s-K5UoOZWt28ftposFSWdY5Hpx=4hiHtRw@mail.gmail.com>

I downloaded 1.2 from here:
https://inkscape.org/release/inkscape-dev/?latest=1

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 4:24 PM Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
wrote:

> > Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
>
> The only available version of Inkscape is 1.1.1 so.. not compatible with
> SPD 1.5
>
>
>
>
>
> *De :* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> *De la part de*
> francesco mulassano via Synth-diy
> *Envoy? :* 17 janvier 2022 06:45
> *? :* SYNTH DIY <Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> *Objet :* [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
>
>
>
> Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for
> Panels Design!
> Download here https://synthpanels.design
> User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual
>
> *Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022*
>
> Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
> For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in 1.2-dev)
>
> PANELS
> - Removed VCV Rack Panel
>
> KNOBS SCALE
> - Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and End
> Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively
> - Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of
> the main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic
> compositions of ticks
> - LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I
> found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating
> new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING
> CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into
> production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position
> on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating
> only the layers we need.
>
> SLIDER SCALE
> - LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN
> (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the
> electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by
> activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>
> JACK
> - Improved parameters
> - LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN
> (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the
> electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by
> activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 17 17:10:10 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:10:10 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
In-Reply-To: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5883b0ceefa40ed884cf0e995ddabcd@futurehorizons.com>

Does anybody on here do concept design for audio front panels ?   I need a look for a new brand of products and the (totally fair) comments on my own attempt was ?it looks very 1970s/80s?.

Please email me if interested.


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of francesco mulassano via Synth-diy
Sent: 17 January 2022 11:45
To: SYNTH DIY
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!

Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for Panels Design!
Download here https://synthpanels.design
User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual

Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022

Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in 1.2-dev)

PANELS
- Removed VCV Rack Panel

KNOBS SCALE
- Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and End Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively
- Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of the main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic compositions of ticks
- LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

SLIDER SCALE
- LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

JACK
- Improved parameters
- LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.


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From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jan 17 18:04:41 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:04:41 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
In-Reply-To: <f5883b0ceefa40ed884cf0e995ddabcd@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f5883b0ceefa40ed884cf0e995ddabcd@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <2e5v9plqu8kkuci9ss64pp36.1642439081007@email.android.com>

That's the best look there can be IMHO.

Roman

---- U?ytkownik Mike Bryant napisa? ----

>Does anybody on here do concept design for audio front panels ?   I need a look for a new brand of products and the (totally fair) comments on my own attempt was ?it looks very 1970s/80s?.
>
>Please email me if interested.
>
>
>From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of francesco mulassano via Synth-diy
>Sent: 17 January 2022 11:45
>To: SYNTH DIY
>Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
>
>Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for Panels Design!
>Download here https://synthpanels.design
>User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual
>
>Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022
>
>Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
>For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in 1.2-dev)
>
>PANELS
>- Removed VCV Rack Panel
>
>KNOBS SCALE
>- Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and End Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively
>- Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of the main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic compositions of ticks
>- LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>
>SLIDER SCALE
>- LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>
>JACK
>- Improved parameters
>- LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From igg.debus at gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 18:06:03 2022
From: igg.debus at gmail.com (Ingo Debus)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:06:03 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>



> Am 14.01.2022 um 05:10 schrieb Paul Perry via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
> 
> I'm not an EE, but one thing I have noticed is that the people who design the chips think in terms of current, and the people (like me) who use them, are likelier to think in terms of voltage. Not that it matters, since V=IR. Probably base amateurs like myself think of voltage because it is easier to see on scopes and meters.

Yes, probably because it?s easier to measure voltages than currents. For current measurements usually a wire or trace has to be cut. That?s often difficult or even impossible (think multilayer PCBs).

Thinking in terms of voltage is also reflected in the traditional way schematics are drawn (i. e. the way we all usually draw them). If three points (components) A, B and C are to be connected, it?s perfectly legal to draw either A?B?C or A?C?B, even if it is important that, say, B is in the middle (think rectifier - filter cap - load in a power supply for instance). Since both ways to draw these connections are equivalent, PCB design software cannot tell the difference (at least I don?t know of any software that does), so doing a good PCB layout is so much more than just translating the schematics. Maybe it wasn?t if there was a more appropriate way to draw schematics?

I had these ideas first when I did some measurements with this gadget:
https://www.aimtti.com/product-category/current-probes/aim-i-prober-520 <https://www.aimtti.com/product-category/current-probes/aim-i-prober-520>

Measuring current is simple this way, but first you have find the places where to measure which can be tricky. Sometimes the line on the schematics simply does not exist on the PCB.

Ingo

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From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 18:18:04 2022
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:18:04 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Seeking Dave Hylander....
In-Reply-To: <97663473-69f8-838e-0575-ba0881496dae@topybear.hu>
References: <CACodTR8BP3UycUf6hryuBMzepxJ=7b30p8QixK7zAaj3sL-khQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <97663473-69f8-838e-0575-ba0881496dae@topybear.hu>
Message-ID: <CACodTR9y-BcqkDY1TXciZxHB2PYLXRr7wzvEpUh+UD_ARU2nGw@mail.gmail.com>

That worked, thank you very much.

Pete

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 12:17 PM Topybear <topylista1 at topybear.hu> wrote:

> Try this: info at hylander.com !
>
> Topy
>
> On 2022. 01. 16. 0:59, Pete Hartman via Synth-diy wrote:
> > Does anyone know if it is possible, and if so, how I might contact
> > Dave Hylander?
> >
> > I'm building a Miniwave with Expander, and just realized that the
> > expander PCB revision I have is the OG version.  I have a 2003, it
> > looks like the 2004 version is much improved (e.g. places for bypass
> > caps for the PROMs etc).  I'd like to buy one of the newer revision.
> >
> > His earthlink web page is still up, but the email address provided
> > (expander at hylander.com) no longer works.
> >
> > Failing that, if anyone else has one of these 2004 revision boards
> > languishing in your backlog, I'd be interested to buy it (though... I
> > have all the other parts, the Blacet MOTM kit and the daughterboard
> > for the LEDs and CV switching.... I can see how selling one without
> > the others might be troublesome, but let's talk anyway).
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Pete
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Usemarketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From jpdesroc at oricom.ca  Mon Jan 17 21:13:41 2022
From: jpdesroc at oricom.ca (Jean-Pierre Desrochers)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:13:41 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
In-Reply-To: <CAO0fyTPnE5TdRkg=s-K5UoOZWt28ftposFSWdY5Hpx=4hiHtRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d80bb5$bd7076c0$38516440$@oricom.ca>
 <CAO0fyTPnE5TdRkg=s-K5UoOZWt28ftposFSWdY5Hpx=4hiHtRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401d80bde$b93c4650$2bb4d2f0$@oricom.ca>

The version available at your link is

inkscape-1.2-dev_2022-01-17_3495c164-x64.7z

 

This compressed file has no executable file in it.. (extracted with WinZIP)

Just a bunch of development files (.c  .h files etc..)

I?m using Microsoft Windows 10 and that?s this file version I downloaded..

Does not work for me..

 

 

De : Matti Palm <matti.palm at gmail.com> 
Envoy? : 17 janvier 2022 10:31
? : Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
Cc : francesco mulassano <francesco.mulassano at gmail.com>; Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Objet : Re: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!

 

I downloaded 1.2 from here: https://inkscape.org/release/inkscape-dev/?latest=1

 

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 4:24 PM Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca <mailto:jpdesroc at oricom.ca> > wrote:

> Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2

The only available version of Inkscape is 1.1.1 so.. not compatible with SPD 1.5

 

 

De : Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> > De la part de francesco mulassano via Synth-diy
Envoy? : 17 janvier 2022 06:45
? : SYNTH DIY <Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org> >
Objet : [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!

 

Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for Panels Design!
Download here https://synthpanels.design
User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual 

Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022

Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in 1.2-dev)

PANELS
- Removed VCV Rack Panel

KNOBS SCALE
- Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and End Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively 
- Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of the main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic compositions of ticks
- LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

SLIDER SCALE
- LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

JACK
- Improved parameters 
- LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

 

 

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org> 
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org> 

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From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 21:52:13 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:52:13 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--pKjVVc9qH9JuYCLGdzbGN8iWPAF1P2XnFm1s7_dnr2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-_X224NNoNRAEzqfmVyJWUjUeJ9zLWuNyTfA1+38U53vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <786413BE-2736-4DB2-9251-1D87AA8B2D8E@electricdruid.net>
 <FE730B2103314E86992317AA076BF473@david78c70950b>
 <CAAv6=UAtW1D46UvRF-iAdEropzDU1TLRDMTCq-_TL_rvcdq7PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5855f4b9a0ba4e209a7d33a45be7bc41@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAAv6=UCo3VbeAnuft_awBm07zTG7gW0QJb5SNyh5jvb79j6DtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2170331c-7aa1-04fb-1c04-f70da1dcaf5b@teply.info>
 <05E73F37-9FA3-4324-A336-7901DDBB9701@gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sD5FXr+12ULjFLjrEQ+PT76gPeAiHDDEZa=5_FC-npQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe2Pw8Vx180ifo8AmBuVFqbyU26geRLmr1ozj9+HDMiR9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG9O7x3q-YKgHf1LGQJb+0Zx4zSqdZAQQ5Xh-N25eo1voseaHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe0LOhJqVOCMijJ_ZSZh=M5CQBUNhm4xo2Gc6ckOuA26OA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--pKjVVc9qH9JuYCLGdzbGN8iWPAF1P2XnFm1s7_dnr2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2Txe1DeAJU1dym1n4k0Bd76m_Aza4Qj=h4VAcYT1A1e8wqQg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Thanks for the helpful thoughts and suggestions. I wanted to share that I
made some progress in understanding the circuit (an audio rate modulated,
tracking all pass filter). Thanks to Ulfur I started thinking about how the
APF approach relates to (sinusoidal) wavefolding done in the SineCore, and
realized that the APF has no mechanism to deal with wrapping around of the
phase (jumping to 0 after exceeding 360 degrees). While in the static,
unmodulated case, the APF can achieve a 0 to 180 degrees shift without the
need for wrapping, in the dynamic case the combination of a rapid change in
modulation signal and a certain integrator state, could call for wrapping
around, which... is not happening. Instead the signal is moving outside of
the typical 10Vpp range. While in the example graph I sent it looks like a
DC shift or LF component, this is not always the case. So DC blocking, or
adding of modulation signal to the output is not really helping. Compared
with normal PM of the same depth the APF approach preserves much more low
end in the signal, while introducing a rather similar set of harmonics. So
I will stick with it and try to work around the headroom issue.

Rutger






Op vr 7 jan. 2022 15:06 schreef cheater cheater <cheater00social at gmail.com>:

> Have you considered adding some of the CV to the output, or possibly
> subtracting? And then, as Lloyd suggested, follow that up with AC coupling.
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 12:41 PM Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the suggestion Ulfur! Do I assume correctly that it comes down
>> to a mathematical equivalence of wave folding and phase modulation?
>>
>> In reply to others: I see that my original question may not have been
>> phrased clearly enough. It's not about making the frequency of an all-pass
>> filter change in time, which I know how to do. The problem is when you
>> change the frequency at audio rate. The figure from the paper I referred to
>> in my original post describes the problem well. It shows how a rapid
>> modulation of the APF frequency (top graph) leads to a low-frequency
>> component in the output (middle graph), which could be avoided (bottom
>> graph). The analog APF I am using acts identical to the middle graph,
>> leading to (unnecessary?) headroom issues, while true PM via the oscillator
>> directly would never cause this.
>>
>> Despite headroom issues, the audio-rate modulated analog APF still sounds
>> cool, by the way!
>>
>>
>> https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/dd2e6eff1c49d49479c0943615ebc36a19f4fa0d/3-Figure2-1.png
>> [image: 3-Figure2-1.png]
>>
>> Rutger
>>
>> Op do 6 jan. 2022 om 22:58 schreef ulfur hansson <ulfurh at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> hey rutger!
>>>
>>> i have had amazing results with openmusiclabs sinecore design. I've
>>> changed it a lot for my own personal needs, but the basic circuit is all
>>> there and presented in a very informative way :) recommend checking it out!!
>>>
>>> very best,
>>> -?lfur
>>>
>>> fim., 6. jan. 2022 kl. 14:16 skrifa?i Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
>>> synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
>>>
>>>> Hi Neil,
>>>>
>>>>  Yes that schematic on page 22 describes very well what I'm doing, but
>>>> with an audio rate modulation signal added to the tracking cv of the all
>>>> pass filter. The problem occurs when input signal peaks and is added to
>>>> twice the output signal of the low pass filter when IT peaks. That can
>>>> happen when receiving a sudden change in the modulation CV.
>>>>
>>>> Rutger
>>>>
>>>> Op do 6 jan. 2022 13:08 schreef Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com
>>>> >:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Rutger,
>>>>>
>>>>> > Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a
>>>>> phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating
>>>>> an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the
>>>>> oscillator.
>>>>>
>>>>> See page 22:
>>>>> https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2130datasheet.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> Implementation here:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-2UQ6zkSU
>>>>>
>>>>> That was modulated at a slow (manual) rate, so no idea what it does at
>>>>> faster rates.  Interesting question though....
>>>>>
>>>>> > ps. Happy healthy new year!
>>>>>
>>>>> Happy new year to you too!
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Neil
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ?
>>> ulfurhansson.com
>>> instagram.com/ulfur_
>>> .??~ ?lfur - Arborescence on Spotify
>>> <https://open.spotify.com/album/118CEJliIg47Jcr70y7Kww>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>
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From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Mon Jan 17 22:03:34 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:03:34 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
Message-ID: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I think i need a bit of wisdom from the 2164 guru's around here. The case
is as follows:
I'm in need of a 1-quadrant multiplier (VCA) that works on a bipolar
signal. The input would be a 10Vpp triangle wave centered around 0V. The
output should be the same with the VCA fully open, but... when closing I
would like to reduce the level with respect to the -5V power bound, so that
a VCA half-open would result in a triangle of half the amplitude, sitting
between -5V and 0V and a fully closed VCA would give -5V DC.

Of course I could level-shift both input and output of a 2164 bases VCA,
but I feel it could be simpler. Would it work to connect a -5V signal to
the ground pin of a 2164? And would that also require a shifted control
voltage?

Regards,

Rutger
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From tom at electricdruid.net  Mon Jan 17 22:50:49 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:50:49 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B3D9A14B-FEB4-4A07-A1C6-5A5B2A81460F@electricdruid.net>

Honestly, it sounds like the level-shifting solution is easiest. Add +5V to the signal going in, process a 0-10V signal, then take 5V off again on the signal coming out. It's only a dual op-amp. It doesn't get a lot simpler than that.

You've likely got an I-to-V stage after the VCA that would do the job for the output, and you might even already have an op-amp ahead of the VCA you could use for the input shift, in which case you don't even need to *add* any op-amps.

HTH,
Tom


> On 17 Jan 2022, at 21:03, Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I think i need a bit of wisdom from the 2164 guru's around here. The case is as follows:
> I'm in need of a 1-quadrant multiplier (VCA) that works on a bipolar signal. The input would be a 10Vpp triangle wave centered around 0V. The output should be the same with the VCA fully open, but... when closing I would like to reduce the level with respect to the -5V power bound, so that a VCA half-open would result in a triangle of half the amplitude, sitting between -5V and 0V and a fully closed VCA would give -5V DC.
> 
> Of course I could level-shift both input and output of a 2164 bases VCA, but I feel it could be simpler. Would it work to connect a -5V signal to the ground pin of a 2164? And would that also require a shifted control voltage?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rutger
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From glitchpop at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 01:32:43 2022
From: glitchpop at gmail.com (Richie Cyngler)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:32:43 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
In-Reply-To: <002401d80bde$b93c4650$2bb4d2f0$@oricom.ca>
References: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d80bb5$bd7076c0$38516440$@oricom.ca>
 <CAO0fyTPnE5TdRkg=s-K5UoOZWt28ftposFSWdY5Hpx=4hiHtRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002401d80bde$b93c4650$2bb4d2f0$@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <CACi_E-QeLjuugPBMorRK+RAtA7YWhk-62nNwbkb3eoyw6CpTZw@mail.gmail.com>

What a huge amount of work you've put into this, thanks for sharing!

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 7:17 AM Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
wrote:

> The version available at your link is
>
> *inkscape-1.2-dev_2022-01-17_3495c164-x64.7z*
>
>
>
> This compressed file has no executable file in it.. (extracted with WinZIP)
>
> Just a bunch of development files (.c  .h files etc..)
>
> I?m using Microsoft Windows 10 and that?s this file version I downloaded..
>
> Does not work for me..
>
>
>
>
>
> *De :* Matti Palm <matti.palm at gmail.com>
> *Envoy? :* 17 janvier 2022 10:31
> *? :* Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
> *Cc :* francesco mulassano <francesco.mulassano at gmail.com>;
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> *Objet :* Re: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
>
>
>
> I downloaded 1.2 from here:
> https://inkscape.org/release/inkscape-dev/?latest=1
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 4:24 PM Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
>
> The only available version of Inkscape is 1.1.1 so.. not compatible with
> SPD 1.5
>
>
>
>
>
> *De :* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> *De la part de*
> francesco mulassano via Synth-diy
> *Envoy? :* 17 janvier 2022 06:45
> *? :* SYNTH DIY <Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> *Objet :* [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
>
>
>
> Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for
> Panels Design!
> Download here https://synthpanels.design
> User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual
>
> *Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022*
>
> Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
> For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in 1.2-dev)
>
> PANELS
> - Removed VCV Rack Panel
>
> KNOBS SCALE
> - Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and End
> Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively
> - Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of
> the main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic
> compositions of ticks
> - LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I
> found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating
> new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING
> CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into
> production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position
> on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating
> only the layers we need.
>
> SLIDER SCALE
> - LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN
> (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the
> electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by
> activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>
> JACK
> - Improved parameters
> - LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN
> (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the
> electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by
> activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


-- 

www.glitchpop.com
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Tue Jan 18 02:27:42 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:27:42 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <B3D9A14B-FEB4-4A07-A1C6-5A5B2A81460F@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B3D9A14B-FEB4-4A07-A1C6-5A5B2A81460F@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <4533B08B-F72F-4FE1-8886-8CE96419A71C@audiobanshee.com>

My first thought was that your bipolar input (?5V) would make this a 2-quadrant multiplier. I suppose that if you guarantee a level shift before and after your VCA, then it could be 1-quadrant, but the overall circuit would be 2-quadrant, right?

Brian


On Jan 17, 2022, at 13:50, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> Honestly, it sounds like the level-shifting solution is easiest. Add +5V to the signal going in, process a 0-10V signal, then take 5V off again on the signal coming out. It's only a dual op-amp. It doesn't get a lot simpler than that.
> 
> You've likely got an I-to-V stage after the VCA that would do the job for the output, and you might even already have an op-amp ahead of the VCA you could use for the input shift, in which case you don't even need to *add* any op-amps.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom
> 
> On 17 Jan 2022, at 21:03, Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> I think i need a bit of wisdom from the 2164 guru's around here. The case is as follows:
>> I'm in need of a 1-quadrant multiplier (VCA) that works on a bipolar signal. The input would be a 10Vpp triangle wave centered around 0V. The output should be the same with the VCA fully open, but... when closing I would like to reduce the level with respect to the -5V power bound, so that a VCA half-open would result in a triangle of half the amplitude, sitting between -5V and 0V and a fully closed VCA would give -5V DC.
>> 
>> Of course I could level-shift both input and output of a 2164 bases VCA, but I feel it could be simpler. Would it work to connect a -5V signal to the ground pin of a 2164? And would that also require a shifted control voltage?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Rutger



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Tue Jan 18 02:48:24 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:48:24 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>

Hi Rutger,
 
It is really easy to do what you want to do.
 
If I understand you correctly, for an input signal of 10Vpp centred on 0V,
you basically want the output signal to grow from a baseline of -5V, so that
when the VCA is off, the output is -5V DC, at 50% gain, the output is 5Vpp
from -5V to 0V, and at 100% the output is 10Vpp from -5V to +5V.
 
Let's assume that you have built the standard linearized VCA circuit and
that you have good 5V and -5V reference voltages available.  Presuming that
your input resistor into the amplifying 2164 VCA is 30k, and the feedback
resistor on the I-V converting opamp is also 30k, then all you have to do is
this:  Sum -5V into the 2164 VCA, in parallel with the input signal, through
a 30k resistor, and sum +5V into the I-V converter also through a 30k
resistor.  The +5V into the I-V converter will apply a constant bias of -5V
to the output signal.  The -5V into the VCA will counteract this bias in
proportion to the VCA's gain, such that, then the VCA is off, the bias is
-5V, and when the VCA is at unity gain, the bias is 0V.
 
Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.  Schematic attached.
 
Cheers,
Dave Dixon 

  _____  

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Rutger
Vlek via Synth-diy
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 1:04 PM
To: SDIY List
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164


[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]	
Dear all, 

I think i need a bit of wisdom from the 2164 guru's around here. The case is
as follows: 
I'm in need of a 1-quadrant multiplier (VCA) that works on a bipolar signal.
The input would be a 10Vpp triangle wave centered around 0V. The output
should be the same with the VCA fully open, but... when closing I would like
to reduce the level with respect to the -5V power bound, so that a VCA
half-open would result in a triangle of half the amplitude, sitting between
-5V and 0V and a fully closed VCA would give -5V DC.

Of course I could level-shift both input and output of a 2164 bases VCA, but
I feel it could be simpler. Would it work to connect a -5V signal to the
ground pin of a 2164? And would that also require a shifted control voltage?

Regards,

Rutger
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From Peter.Ullrich at kapsch.net  Tue Jan 18 09:21:32 2022
From: Peter.Ullrich at kapsch.net (Ullrich Peter)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:21:32 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] *EXT* Re:  Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
In-Reply-To: <002401d80bde$b93c4650$2bb4d2f0$@oricom.ca>
References: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d80bb5$bd7076c0$38516440$@oricom.ca>
 <CAO0fyTPnE5TdRkg=s-K5UoOZWt28ftposFSWdY5Hpx=4hiHtRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002401d80bde$b93c4650$2bb4d2f0$@oricom.ca>
Message-ID: <AM0PR03MB43069C54F5B44D68A57B030094589@AM0PR03MB4306.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Jean-Pierre!

Maybe a WinZip problem.
I am using 7zip (free) and the binaries are in the /bin directory.

Ciao
Peter

Von: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> Im Auftrag von Jean-Pierre Desrochers
Gesendet: Montag, 17. J?nner 2022 21:14
An: 'Matti Palm' <matti.palm at gmail.com>
Cc: Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Betreff: *EXT* Re: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!

The version available at your link is
inkscape-1.2-dev_2022-01-17_3495c164-x64.7z

This compressed file has no executable file in it.. (extracted with WinZIP)
Just a bunch of development files (.c  .h files etc..)
I'm using Microsoft Windows 10 and that's this file version I downloaded..
Does not work for me..


De : Matti Palm <matti.palm at gmail.com<mailto:matti.palm at gmail.com>>
Envoy? : 17 janvier 2022 10:31
? : Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca<mailto:jpdesroc at oricom.ca>>
Cc : francesco mulassano <francesco.mulassano at gmail.com<mailto:francesco.mulassano at gmail.com>>; Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Objet : Re: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!

I downloaded 1.2 from here: https://inkscape.org/release/inkscape-dev/?latest=1<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Finkscape.org%2Frelease%2Finkscape-dev%2F%3Flatest%3D1&data=04%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7Cb00552428863481f1b9a08d9d9f67a72%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637780474916752214%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=NniFBQb89goLiSDfZrHTn7yCTXzTtF2j2d1RNTdYZns%3D&reserved=0>

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 4:24 PM Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca<mailto:jpdesroc at oricom.ca>> wrote:
> Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
The only available version of Inkscape is 1.1.1 so.. not compatible with SPD 1.5


De : Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>> De la part de francesco mulassano via Synth-diy
Envoy? : 17 janvier 2022 06:45
? : SYNTH DIY <Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
Objet : [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!

Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for Panels Design!
Download here https://synthpanels.design<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsynthpanels.design%2F&data=04%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7Cb00552428863481f1b9a08d9d9f67a72%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637780474916752214%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=uUdPMuOBc6yOR%2BTYcV%2FP4ug%2BCsfpmXyCl%2BC%2BUS5Ra5Q%3D&reserved=0>
User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsndmt.link%2FSPD-manual&data=04%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7Cb00552428863481f1b9a08d9d9f67a72%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637780474916752214%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4aUcFeN5iQP3EdYD0OEMjHM9OtaO%2BemJcKJNIG2nK7s%3D&reserved=0>

Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022

Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in 1.2-dev)

PANELS
- Removed VCV Rack Panel

KNOBS SCALE
- Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and End Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively
- Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of the main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic compositions of ticks
- LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

SLIDER SCALE
- LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.

JACK
- Improved parameters
- LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating only the layers we need.


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsynth-diy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsynth-diy&data=04%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7Cb00552428863481f1b9a08d9d9f67a72%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637780474916752214%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=2vAO4P807iKNJXn0YIn8gvxsjDo%2F%2FQMy51Uxh3S%2Ff5s%3D&reserved=0>
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>



The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail immediately.

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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 09:25:02 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:25:02 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_TgdWsN-tM+ayApPx4CULLcDnrwy3UB0kkAksWXE4vkw@mail.gmail.com>

jesus, that's a grand for a probe. but it's no contact, so that's
nice... how does it work?

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 6:10 PM Ingo Debus via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Am 14.01.2022 um 05:10 schrieb Paul Perry via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
>
> I'm not an EE, but one thing I have noticed is that the people who design the chips think in terms of current, and the people (like me) who use them, are likelier to think in terms of voltage. Not that it matters, since V=IR. Probably base amateurs like myself think of voltage because it is easier to see on scopes and meters.
>
>
> Yes, probably because it?s easier to measure voltages than currents. For current measurements usually a wire or trace has to be cut. That?s often difficult or even impossible (think multilayer PCBs).
>
> Thinking in terms of voltage is also reflected in the traditional way schematics are drawn (i. e. the way we all usually draw them). If three points (components) A, B and C are to be connected, it?s perfectly legal to draw either A?B?C or A?C?B, even if it is important that, say, B is in the middle (think rectifier - filter cap - load in a power supply for instance). Since both ways to draw these connections are equivalent, PCB design software cannot tell the difference (at least I don?t know of any software that does), so doing a good PCB layout is so much more than just translating the schematics. Maybe it wasn?t if there was a more appropriate way to draw schematics?
>
> I had these ideas first when I did some measurements with this gadget:
> https://www.aimtti.com/product-category/current-probes/aim-i-prober-520
>
> Measuring current is simple this way, but first you have find the places where to measure which can be tricky. Sometimes the line on the schematics simply does not exist on the PCB.
>
> Ingo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 09:34:36 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:34:36 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--zH6FO1gtUnHjnBnGjQm0A3m1Y0-S1aCHeGrQBkm8eDw@mail.gmail.com>

The only other option I see is: put the input into the VCA as bipolar, and
then, based on how open the knob is, add the right voltage to the output of
the VCA. So let's say you have 5V on the wiper, the right side of a linear
pot goes to the VCA CV input, and the left side goes to the op amp doing
offset on the output of the VCA. Also, perhaps each end of the
potentiometer should be pulled down to ground via a small resistor.

You save one op amp, and also it'll never be perfectly aligned, and very
likely more temperamental than the offset and de-offset option people
suggest, but who knows, maybe it'll sound cooler.

How do you count how many quadrants a multiplier has? What's the difference
between 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 8 quadrant multipliers?

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 2:52 AM David G Dixon via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Hi Rutger,
>
> It is really easy to do what you want to do.
>
> If I understand you correctly, for an input signal of 10Vpp centred on 0V,
> you basically want the output signal to grow from a baseline of -5V, so
> that when the VCA is off, the output is -5V DC, at 50% gain, the output is
> 5Vpp from -5V to 0V, and at 100% the output is 10Vpp from -5V to +5V.
>
> Let's assume that you have built the standard linearized VCA circuit and
> that you have good 5V and -5V reference voltages available.  Presuming that
> your input resistor into the amplifying 2164 VCA is 30k, and the feedback
> resistor on the I-V converting opamp is also 30k, then all you have to do
> is this:  Sum -5V into the 2164 VCA, in parallel with the input signal,
> through a 30k resistor, and sum +5V into the I-V converter also through a
> 30k resistor.  The +5V into the I-V converter will apply a constant bias of
> -5V to the output signal.  The -5V into the VCA will counteract this bias
> in proportion to the VCA's gain, such that, then the VCA is off, the bias
> is -5V, and when the VCA is at unity gain, the bias is 0V.
>
> Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.  Schematic attached.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave Dixon
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *Rutger
> Vlek via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* Monday, January 17, 2022 1:04 PM
> *To:* SDIY List
> *Subject:* [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> [*CAUTION:* Non-UBC Email]
> Dear all,
>
> I think i need a bit of wisdom from the 2164 guru's around here. The case
> is as follows:
> I'm in need of a 1-quadrant multiplier (VCA) that works on a bipolar
> signal. The input would be a 10Vpp triangle wave centered around 0V. The
> output should be the same with the VCA fully open, but... when closing I
> would like to reduce the level with respect to the -5V power bound, so that
> a VCA half-open would result in a triangle of half the amplitude, sitting
> between -5V and 0V and a fully closed VCA would give -5V DC.
>
> Of course I could level-shift both input and output of a 2164 bases VCA,
> but I feel it could be simpler. Would it work to connect a -5V signal to
> the ground pin of a 2164? And would that also require a shifted control
> voltage?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rutger
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From francesco.mulassano at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 09:53:58 2022
From: francesco.mulassano at gmail.com (francesco mulassano)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:53:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
In-Reply-To: <CACi_E-QeLjuugPBMorRK+RAtA7YWhk-62nNwbkb3eoyw6CpTZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+R=RzCe-NWWgwnhjqb8Osk0B8bRn-SBJ86QYFze44UK8N3GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d80bb5$bd7076c0$38516440$@oricom.ca>
 <CAO0fyTPnE5TdRkg=s-K5UoOZWt28ftposFSWdY5Hpx=4hiHtRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002401d80bde$b93c4650$2bb4d2f0$@oricom.ca>
 <CACi_E-QeLjuugPBMorRK+RAtA7YWhk-62nNwbkb3eoyw6CpTZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+R=RzCxQD_8mx9U6nqSW3gw+EpSvsgt0XJu+KFW8-YeD6mGuw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the comments!
It's a hard work but very satisfying!



Il mar 18 gen 2022, 01:35 Richie Cyngler via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> ha scritto:

> What a huge amount of work you've put into this, thanks for sharing!
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 7:17 AM Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> The version available at your link is
>>
>> *inkscape-1.2-dev_2022-01-17_3495c164-x64.7z*
>>
>>
>>
>> This compressed file has no executable file in it.. (extracted with
>> WinZIP)
>>
>> Just a bunch of development files (.c  .h files etc..)
>>
>> I?m using Microsoft Windows 10 and that?s this file version I downloaded..
>>
>> Does not work for me..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *De :* Matti Palm <matti.palm at gmail.com>
>> *Envoy? :* 17 janvier 2022 10:31
>> *? :* Jean-Pierre Desrochers <jpdesroc at oricom.ca>
>> *Cc :* francesco mulassano <francesco.mulassano at gmail.com>;
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> *Objet :* Re: [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
>>
>>
>>
>> I downloaded 1.2 from here:
>> https://inkscape.org/release/inkscape-dev/?latest=1
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 4:24 PM Jean-Pierre Desrochers <
>> jpdesroc at oricom.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
>>
>> The only available version of Inkscape is 1.1.1 so.. not compatible with
>> SPD 1.5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *De :* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> *De la part de*
>> francesco mulassano via Synth-diy
>> *Envoy? :* 17 janvier 2022 06:45
>> *? :* SYNTH DIY <Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> *Objet :* [sdiy] Synth Panels Designer MEGA UPDATE!
>>
>>
>>
>> Ciao, I have released a new MEGA UPDATE of my Inkscape extension for
>> Panels Design!
>> Download here https://synthpanels.design
>> User manual https://sndmt.link/SPD-manual
>>
>> *Synth Panel Designer 1.5 The Mega Update - 16 January 2022*
>>
>> Starting from this version you need INKSCAPE 1.2
>> For some reason, Inkscape 1.1 broke the units conversion (fixed in
>> 1.2-dev)
>>
>> PANELS
>> - Removed VCV Rack Panel
>>
>> KNOBS SCALE
>> - Added the so-called Nautilus Mode. You can set Start Tick Lenght and
>> End Tick Lenght to create a scale that grows progressively
>> - Add Tick Dots. Now you can have single or multiple dots at the end of
>> the main ticks, by playing with negative parameters, we can create artistic
>> compositions of ticks
>> - LAYERS!! Recently I worked on a complex project for a large panel, I
>> found myself with some difficulties that I tried to compensate by creating
>> new layers. Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the CENTERING
>> CIRCLES, one dedicated to the DRILL PLANE (to send the panel into
>> production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the electronic component's position
>> on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by activating and deactivating
>> only the layers we need.
>>
>> SLIDER SCALE
>> - LAYERS!! Now, for each scale we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN
>> (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the
>> electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by
>> activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>>
>> JACK
>> - Improved parameters
>> - LAYERS!! Now, for each jack we add a layer dedicated to the DRILL PLAN
>> (to send the panel into production) and one (the PCB PLAN) for the
>> electronic component's position on the PCB. This makes it easier to work by
>> activating and deactivating only the layers we need.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> www.glitchpop.com
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From usenet at teply.info  Tue Jan 18 10:29:36 2022
From: usenet at teply.info (usenet at teply.info)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:29:36 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>



On 17.01.22 18:06, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy wrote:

> Yes, probably because it?s easier to measure voltages than currents. For 
> current measurements usually a wire or trace has to be cut. That?s often 
> difficult or even impossible (think multilayer PCBs).
> 
> Thinking in terms of voltage is also reflected in the traditional way 
> schematics are drawn (i. e. the way we all usually draw them). If three 
> points (components) A, B and C are to be connected, it?s perfectly legal 
> to draw either A?B?C or A?C?B, even if it is important that, say, B is 
> in the middle (think rectifier - filter cap - load in a power supply for 
> instance). Since both ways to draw these connections are equivalent, PCB 
> design software cannot tell the difference (at least I don?t know of any 
> software that does), so doing a good PCB layout is so much more than 
> just translating the schematics. Maybe it wasn?t if there was a more 
> appropriate way to draw schematics?
> 
In cases where it actually matters (mostly RF/microwave stuff as far as 
I can see), it is pretty common to place PCB traces explicitly as 
elements in the schematic and possibly also the layout. This tends to be 
a bit more work as these extra elements need to have a schematic symbol 
and a footprint in order to be recognized by the layout software, but 
can help a lot when it matters.
In the end it's a tradeoff. You trade flexibility for reproducibility. 
You can either describe an PCB element as "quarter wavelength at 
f=12.96GHz, Z=25R" or as "trace, 1.2 mm wide, 14.46 mm long". Both cases 
have their use, and they can be transformed into the respective other 
*IF* the PCB stackup and materials are known. But in Audio synths I 
don't see any benefit in doing that extra effort.

Even the mentioned arrangement of rectifier, filter cap and load hardly 
maters at the frequencies in question for reasonable dimensions. Sure, 
placing the load directly at the rectifier with the filter cap two 
metres away probably doesn't serve the purpose, but at a few dozen 
kilohertz it probably wouldn't make a huge difference.

Florian


From cheater00social at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 10:36:32 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:36:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8ipmpF+0ve3MtN019cqrN2=3gHBXTmfhJUTkKBLrBT3w@mail.gmail.com>

I think that Ingo just meant sometimes it's hard to find a certain
trace on the schematic or vice versa, and sometimes the schematics are
wrong.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 10:33 AM usenet at teply.info <usenet at teply.info> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 17.01.22 18:06, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy wrote:
>
> > Yes, probably because it?s easier to measure voltages than currents. For
> > current measurements usually a wire or trace has to be cut. That?s often
> > difficult or even impossible (think multilayer PCBs).
> >
> > Thinking in terms of voltage is also reflected in the traditional way
> > schematics are drawn (i. e. the way we all usually draw them). If three
> > points (components) A, B and C are to be connected, it?s perfectly legal
> > to draw either A?B?C or A?C?B, even if it is important that, say, B is
> > in the middle (think rectifier - filter cap - load in a power supply for
> > instance). Since both ways to draw these connections are equivalent, PCB
> > design software cannot tell the difference (at least I don?t know of any
> > software that does), so doing a good PCB layout is so much more than
> > just translating the schematics. Maybe it wasn?t if there was a more
> > appropriate way to draw schematics?
> >
> In cases where it actually matters (mostly RF/microwave stuff as far as
> I can see), it is pretty common to place PCB traces explicitly as
> elements in the schematic and possibly also the layout. This tends to be
> a bit more work as these extra elements need to have a schematic symbol
> and a footprint in order to be recognized by the layout software, but
> can help a lot when it matters.
> In the end it's a tradeoff. You trade flexibility for reproducibility.
> You can either describe an PCB element as "quarter wavelength at
> f=12.96GHz, Z=25R" or as "trace, 1.2 mm wide, 14.46 mm long". Both cases
> have their use, and they can be transformed into the respective other
> *IF* the PCB stackup and materials are known. But in Audio synths I
> don't see any benefit in doing that extra effort.
>
> Even the mentioned arrangement of rectifier, filter cap and load hardly
> maters at the frequencies in question for reasonable dimensions. Sure,
> placing the load directly at the rectifier with the filter cap two
> metres away probably doesn't serve the purpose, but at a few dozen
> kilohertz it probably wouldn't make a huge difference.
>
> Florian
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From chris at chrismusic.de  Tue Jan 18 11:17:19 2022
From: chris at chrismusic.de (chris)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:17:19 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
References: <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
Message-ID: <20220118111238.91CF.CHRIS@chrismusic.de>

Don't forget ground layout.

I have the habit of separating AGND and DGND in the schematic and have a
solder jumper in between, so I can see and control where the two are to
be connected on the actual board. In a multi-board scenario, this may
even be on the PSU board.

Chris



On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:29:36 +0100 "usenet at teply.info"
<usenet at teply.info> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 17.01.22 18:06, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy wrote:
> 
> > Yes, probably because it???s easier to measure voltages than currents. For 
> > current measurements usually a wire or trace has to be cut. That???s often 
> > difficult or even impossible (think multilayer PCBs).
> > 
> > Thinking in terms of voltage is also reflected in the traditional way 
> > schematics are drawn (i. e. the way we all usually draw them). If three 
> > points (components) A, B and C are to be connected, it???s perfectly legal 
> > to draw either A???B???C or A???C???B, even if it is important that, say, B is 
> > in the middle (think rectifier - filter cap - load in a power supply for 
> > instance). Since both ways to draw these connections are equivalent, PCB 
> > design software cannot tell the difference (at least I don???t know of any 
> > software that does), so doing a good PCB layout is so much more than 
> > just translating the schematics. Maybe it wasn???t if there was a more 
> > appropriate way to draw schematics?
> > 
> In cases where it actually matters (mostly RF/microwave stuff as far as 
> I can see), it is pretty common to place PCB traces explicitly as 
> elements in the schematic and possibly also the layout. This tends to be 
> a bit more work as these extra elements need to have a schematic symbol 
> and a footprint in order to be recognized by the layout software, but 
> can help a lot when it matters.
> In the end it's a tradeoff. You trade flexibility for reproducibility. 
> You can either describe an PCB element as "quarter wavelength at 
> f=12.96GHz, Z=25R" or as "trace, 1.2 mm wide, 14.46 mm long". Both cases 
> have their use, and they can be transformed into the respective other 
> *IF* the PCB stackup and materials are known. But in Audio synths I 
> don't see any benefit in doing that extra effort.
> 
> Even the mentioned arrangement of rectifier, filter cap and load hardly 
> maters at the frequencies in question for reasonable dimensions. Sure, 
> placing the load directly at the rectifier with the filter cap two 
> metres away probably doesn't serve the purpose, but at a few dozen 
> kilohertz it probably wouldn't make a huge difference.
> 
> Florian
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 11:42:56 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:42:56 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

@David: thanks for the quick and detailed solution! I'm glad you took into
account the linearization as well, as I'll need that too. One thing in your
solution caught my eye, and that is that you're summing signals in front of
the 2164's input. I know you can sum signals on the input of the I-V
convertor, but did not know it could be done even earlier, before the 2164.
Are you sure it would not cause interactions between the summed signals
(i.e. can the input of the 2164 also be considered virtual ground)?

@cheater00 & Matthew Skala: good point about the definition of N-quadrant
multipliers. Here's how I understand it:

- A 4-quadrant multiplier is capable of taking into account the magnitude
and sign (+ or -) of both (biplolar) inputs and flip the output according
to both signs (as in normal math multiplications). This would be the case
for a ring modulator

- A 2-quadrant multiplier can take into account the magnitude of both
inputs, but only the sign of 1 input (the second input should be unipolar
and cannot sign-flip the output). This would be the case for a normal audio
VCA.

- A 1-quadrant multiplier can take into account only the magnitude of both
inputs, and not deal with either of the signs to cause sign-flipping of the
output. In the common case this requires two unipolar signals, but I feel
my case of a bipolar wave of which the amplitude is decreased up to it's
lower bound also fits this... what do you think?

Rutger



Op di 18 jan. 2022 om 02:48 schreef David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca>:

> Hi Rutger,
>
> It is really easy to do what you want to do.
>
> If I understand you correctly, for an input signal of 10Vpp centred on 0V,
> you basically want the output signal to grow from a baseline of -5V, so
> that when the VCA is off, the output is -5V DC, at 50% gain, the output is
> 5Vpp from -5V to 0V, and at 100% the output is 10Vpp from -5V to +5V.
>
> Let's assume that you have built the standard linearized VCA circuit and
> that you have good 5V and -5V reference voltages available.  Presuming that
> your input resistor into the amplifying 2164 VCA is 30k, and the feedback
> resistor on the I-V converting opamp is also 30k, then all you have to do
> is this:  Sum -5V into the 2164 VCA, in parallel with the input signal,
> through a 30k resistor, and sum +5V into the I-V converter also through a
> 30k resistor.  The +5V into the I-V converter will apply a constant bias of
> -5V to the output signal.  The -5V into the VCA will counteract this bias
> in proportion to the VCA's gain, such that, then the VCA is off, the bias
> is -5V, and when the VCA is at unity gain, the bias is 0V.
>
> Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.  Schematic attached.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave Dixon
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *Rutger
> Vlek via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* Monday, January 17, 2022 1:04 PM
> *To:* SDIY List
> *Subject:* [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> [*CAUTION:* Non-UBC Email]
> Dear all,
>
> I think i need a bit of wisdom from the 2164 guru's around here. The case
> is as follows:
> I'm in need of a 1-quadrant multiplier (VCA) that works on a bipolar
> signal. The input would be a 10Vpp triangle wave centered around 0V. The
> output should be the same with the VCA fully open, but... when closing I
> would like to reduce the level with respect to the -5V power bound, so that
> a VCA half-open would result in a triangle of half the amplitude, sitting
> between -5V and 0V and a fully closed VCA would give -5V DC.
>
> Of course I could level-shift both input and output of a 2164 bases VCA,
> but I feel it could be simpler. Would it work to connect a -5V signal to
> the ground pin of a 2164? And would that also require a shifted control
> voltage?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rutger
>
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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 12:23:27 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:23:27 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rutger,

David's solution is a good approach, simple.

The idea of quadrants is a 2-dimensional XY graph (there can be more
dimensions, but let's stick to 2D for now).

If you draw a big "+" on a sheet of paper, with the middle crossing as "0",
then -x to +x on the horizontal, and -y to +y on the vertical, you now have
the four quarters, or quadrants.

- if both inputs are unipolar then the output will be unipolar and the
transfer function is a line in one quadrant.  1-quadrant.
- if one input is bipolar, e.g., typical audio signal with no DC, then the
output function sits in two quadrants.  2-quadrant.
- if both inputs are bipolar, then the output will occupy all four
quadrants.  4-quadrant.

And yes, the input of the 2164 is a virtual ground summing node, as long as
you don't overdrive it (limit is around +/- 1mA peak for the SSI2164, less
for the original SSM and CoolAudio's V versions).

Neil



On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 at 10:45, Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> @David: thanks for the quick and detailed solution! I'm glad you took into
> account the linearization as well, as I'll need that too. One thing in your
> solution caught my eye, and that is that you're summing signals in front of
> the 2164's input. I know you can sum signals on the input of the I-V
> convertor, but did not know it could be done even earlier, before the 2164.
> Are you sure it would not cause interactions between the summed signals
> (i.e. can the input of the 2164 also be considered virtual ground)?
>
> @cheater00 & Matthew Skala: good point about the definition of N-quadrant
> multipliers. Here's how I understand it:
>
> - A 4-quadrant multiplier is capable of taking into account the magnitude
> and sign (+ or -) of both (biplolar) inputs and flip the output according
> to both signs (as in normal math multiplications). This would be the case
> for a ring modulator
>
> - A 2-quadrant multiplier can take into account the magnitude of both
> inputs, but only the sign of 1 input (the second input should be unipolar
> and cannot sign-flip the output). This would be the case for a normal audio
> VCA.
>
> - A 1-quadrant multiplier can take into account only the magnitude of both
> inputs, and not deal with either of the signs to cause sign-flipping of the
> output. In the common case this requires two unipolar signals, but I feel
> my case of a bipolar wave of which the amplitude is decreased up to it's
> lower bound also fits this... what do you think?
>
> Rutger
>
>
>
> Op di 18 jan. 2022 om 02:48 schreef David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca>:
>
>> Hi Rutger,
>>
>> It is really easy to do what you want to do.
>>
>> If I understand you correctly, for an input signal of 10Vpp centred on
>> 0V, you basically want the output signal to grow from a baseline of -5V, so
>> that when the VCA is off, the output is -5V DC, at 50% gain, the output is
>> 5Vpp from -5V to 0V, and at 100% the output is 10Vpp from -5V to +5V.
>>
>> Let's assume that you have built the standard linearized VCA circuit and
>> that you have good 5V and -5V reference voltages available.  Presuming that
>> your input resistor into the amplifying 2164 VCA is 30k, and the feedback
>> resistor on the I-V converting opamp is also 30k, then all you have to do
>> is this:  Sum -5V into the 2164 VCA, in parallel with the input signal,
>> through a 30k resistor, and sum +5V into the I-V converter also through a
>> 30k resistor.  The +5V into the I-V converter will apply a constant bias of
>> -5V to the output signal.  The -5V into the VCA will counteract this bias
>> in proportion to the VCA's gain, such that, then the VCA is off, the bias
>> is -5V, and when the VCA is at unity gain, the bias is 0V.
>>
>> Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.  Schematic attached.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave Dixon
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of
>> *Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 17, 2022 1:04 PM
>> *To:* SDIY List
>> *Subject:* [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>>
>> [*CAUTION:* Non-UBC Email]
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I think i need a bit of wisdom from the 2164 guru's around here. The case
>> is as follows:
>> I'm in need of a 1-quadrant multiplier (VCA) that works on a bipolar
>> signal. The input would be a 10Vpp triangle wave centered around 0V. The
>> output should be the same with the VCA fully open, but... when closing I
>> would like to reduce the level with respect to the -5V power bound, so that
>> a VCA half-open would result in a triangle of half the amplitude, sitting
>> between -5V and 0V and a fully closed VCA would give -5V DC.
>>
>> Of course I could level-shift both input and output of a 2164 bases VCA,
>> but I feel it could be simpler. Would it work to connect a -5V signal to
>> the ground pin of a 2164? And would that also require a shifted control
>> voltage?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rutger
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From ulfurh at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 13:38:41 2022
From: ulfurh at gmail.com (ulfur hansson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:38:41 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Time-varying all-pass filters
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe1DeAJU1dym1n4k0Bd76m_Aza4Qj=h4VAcYT1A1e8wqQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe1DeAJU1dym1n4k0Bd76m_Aza4Qj=h4VAcYT1A1e8wqQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B2742D-11B0-4379-81CA-1D5DA890B969@gmail.com>

super interesting! 

thanks so much for sharing, i for one am very excited to follow your progress and hope you figure out how to achieve deeper modulation/headroom with your apf!

best,
-?

sent from outer space

> On 17 Jan 2022, at 20:55, Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for the helpful thoughts and suggestions. I wanted to share that I made some progress in understanding the circuit (an audio rate modulated, tracking all pass filter). Thanks to Ulfur I started thinking about how the APF approach relates to (sinusoidal) wavefolding done in the SineCore, and realized that the APF has no mechanism to deal with wrapping around of the phase (jumping to 0 after exceeding 360 degrees). While in the static, unmodulated case, the APF can achieve a 0 to 180 degrees shift without the need for wrapping, in the dynamic case the combination of a rapid change in modulation signal and a certain integrator state, could call for wrapping around, which... is not happening. Instead the signal is moving outside of the typical 10Vpp range. While in the example graph I sent it looks like a DC shift or LF component, this is not always the case. So DC blocking, or adding of modulation signal to the output is not really helping. Compared with normal PM of the same depth the APF approach preserves much more low end in the signal, while introducing a rather similar set of harmonics. So I will stick with it and try to work around the headroom issue.
> 
> Rutger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Op vr 7 jan. 2022 15:06 schreef cheater cheater <cheater00social at gmail.com>:
>> Have you considered adding some of the CV to the output, or possibly subtracting? And then, as Lloyd suggested, follow that up with AC coupling.
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 12:41 PM Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> Thanks for the suggestion Ulfur! Do I assume correctly that it comes down to a mathematical equivalence of wave folding and phase modulation?
>>> 
>>> In reply to others: I see that my original question may not have been phrased clearly enough. It's not about making the frequency of an all-pass filter change in time, which I know how to do. The problem is when you change the frequency at audio rate. The figure from the paper I referred to in my original post describes the problem well. It shows how a rapid modulation of the APF frequency (top graph) leads to a low-frequency component in the output (middle graph), which could be avoided (bottom graph). The analog APF I am using acts identical to the middle graph, leading to (unnecessary?) headroom issues, while true PM via the oscillator directly would never cause this.
>>> 
>>> Despite headroom issues, the audio-rate modulated analog APF still sounds cool, by the way!
>>> 
>>> https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/dd2e6eff1c49d49479c0943615ebc36a19f4fa0d/3-Figure2-1.png
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rutger
>>> 
>>> Op do 6 jan. 2022 om 22:58 schreef ulfur hansson <ulfurh at gmail.com>:
>>>> hey rutger!
>>>> 
>>>> i have had amazing results with openmusiclabs sinecore design. I've changed it a lot for my own personal needs, but the basic circuit is all there and presented in a very informative way :) recommend checking it out!!
>>>> 
>>>> very best,
>>>> -?lfur
>>>> 
>>>> fim., 6. jan. 2022 kl. 14:16 skrifa?i Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
>>>>> Hi Neil,
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Yes that schematic on page 22 describes very well what I'm doing, but with an audio rate modulation signal added to the tracking cv of the all pass filter. The problem occurs when input signal peaks and is added to twice the output signal of the low pass filter when IT peaks. That can happen when receiving a sudden change in the modulation CV.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rutger
>>>>> 
>>>>> Op do 6 jan. 2022 13:08 schreef Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com>:
>>>>>> Hi Rutger,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > Then it occurred to me that, assuming the input is a sine wave, a phase shifted version up to 180 degrees could be obtained from modulating an all-pass filter that is also tracking along with the pitch of the oscillator.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> See page 22:
>>>>>> https://www.soundsemiconductor.com/downloads/ssi2130datasheet.pdf
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Implementation here:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-2UQ6zkSU
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That was modulated at a slow (manual) rate, so no idea what it does at
>>>>>> faster rates.  Interesting question though....
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > ps. Happy healthy new year!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Happy new year to you too!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Neil
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> ?
>>>> ulfurhansson.com
>>>> instagram.com/ulfur_
>>>> .??~ ?lfur - Arborescence on Spotify
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From guy.mccusker at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 13:43:22 2022
From: guy.mccusker at gmail.com (Guy McCusker)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:43:22 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 11:27 AM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

>
> The idea of quadrants is a 2-dimensional XY graph (there can be more
> dimensions, but let's stick to 2D for now).
>
> If you draw a big "+" on a sheet of paper, with the middle crossing as
> "0", then -x to +x on the horizontal, and -y to +y on the vertical, you now
> have the four quarters, or quadrants.
>
> - if both inputs are unipolar then the output will be unipolar and the
> transfer function is a line in one quadrant.  1-quadrant.
> - if one input is bipolar, e.g., typical audio signal with no DC, then the
> output function sits in two quadrants.  2-quadrant.
> - if both inputs are bipolar, then the output will occupy all four
> quadrants.  4-quadrant.
>

This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply by. In
Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's graph
should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why the
level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I believe Rutger
is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 13:54:47 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:54:47 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>

> This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.

Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.

If we take Dave's approach:
- convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
- add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on the
quadrantiness of the VCA itself)

With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.

Cheers,
Neil



From igg.debus at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 14:50:37 2022
From: igg.debus at gmail.com (Ingo Debus)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:50:37 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-_TgdWsN-tM+ayApPx4CULLcDnrwy3UB0kkAksWXE4vkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_TgdWsN-tM+ayApPx4CULLcDnrwy3UB0kkAksWXE4vkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <475FFD4F-3FDE-45A8-B84D-5613F7BDC9FB@gmail.com>



> Am 18.01.2022 um 09:25 schrieb cheater cheater <cheater00social at gmail.com>:
> 
> jesus, that's a grand for a probe. but it's no contact, so that's
> nice... how does it work?

You can spend much more for a current probe.

Quote from the instruction manual 
(https://resources.aimtti.com/manuals/I-prober_Instruction_Manual-Iss7.pdf, introduction, on page 2):

"This current probe employs a sensing method generally known as a fluxgate magnetometer, and
measures the magnetic field surrounding the electric current. The magnetometer consists of a small
coil of wire surrounding a core made of an advanced material with special magnetic properties. An
excitation current (at approximately 40MHz) is passed through the coil, which magnetises the core
alternately in opposite directions. If there is no external magnetic field, this magnetisation is
symmetrical. When an external field is applied, the resulting asymmetry is detected by a feedback
loop which applies an opposing current through the coil to restore the net field to zero. The output
voltage is proportional to this opposing current, and therefore to the magnitude of the field?

Ingo
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From igg.debus at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 15:09:58 2022
From: igg.debus at gmail.com (Ingo Debus)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:09:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
Message-ID: <2E102656-9A8C-47F9-81DA-BB573BE65602@gmail.com>



> Am 18.01.2022 um 10:29 schrieb usenet at teply.info:
> 
> Even the mentioned arrangement of rectifier, filter cap and load hardly maters at the frequencies in question for reasonable dimensions. Sure, placing the load directly at the rectifier with the filter cap two metres away probably doesn't serve the purpose, but at a few dozen kilohertz it probably wouldn't make a huge difference.

This is not high frequency stuff. In my example we?re talking 100 Hz or 120 Hz (yes, it?s not a sine current, but that?s not the point here). There?s a nasty hum current from the rectifier to the filter cap, since both source and sink are very low impedance. There will always be some voltage drop across that line. When this wire/trace is shared with the wire/trace from the cap to the load you cannot get rid of that hum. On the other hand, when the wire/trace between rectifier and cap is not shared with anything else, that current cannot do any harm.

I don?t think I?m the only one who learned that lesson the hard way.?

Could even apply to DC scenarios. Imagine the CV input line to your VCO is shared with a line that carries a few amperes of DC current (or, more likely, the ground reference for the CV input).

Ingo
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From igg.debus at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 15:32:59 2022
From: igg.debus at gmail.com (Ingo Debus)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:32:59 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8ipmpF+0ve3MtN019cqrN2=3gHBXTmfhJUTkKBLrBT3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
 <CAGn5V-8ipmpF+0ve3MtN019cqrN2=3gHBXTmfhJUTkKBLrBT3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2583A6E3-D6AA-4DCD-92A8-3E40CDFFCA8B@gmail.com>



> Am 18.01.2022 um 10:36 schrieb cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
> 
> I think that Ingo just meant sometimes it's hard to find a certain
> trace on the schematic or vice versa

Sometimes it?s just impossible. Say, in my A?B?C versus A?C?B example (A, B and C are points in the circuit here) there?s 1 mA flowing out of A, and 2 mA out of B, so there?s 3 mA flowing into C.
There are two traces connecting three points. In A?B?C there is no trace that carries 2 mA, and in A?C?B there is no trace that carries 3 mA. B?A?C is also possible, here there?s no trace that carries 1 mA.

Ingo
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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 18 15:38:19 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:38:19 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <2E102656-9A8C-47F9-81DA-BB573BE65602@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
 <2E102656-9A8C-47F9-81DA-BB573BE65602@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxJQ_EnajqsW0uPLYcmLo1crtG+RB-joScY9UaZckUt5_g@mail.gmail.com>

> Could even apply to DC scenarios. Imagine the CV input line to your VCO is shared with a line that carries a few amperes of DC current (or, more likely, the ground reference for the CV input).

"Common impedance coupling".

Neil


From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 18 21:47:20 2022
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 07:47:20 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxJQ_EnajqsW0uPLYcmLo1crtG+RB-joScY9UaZckUt5_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <95090678-6ee1-b2ff-43ce-073d579af142@teply.info>
 <2E102656-9A8C-47F9-81DA-BB573BE65602@gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJQ_EnajqsW0uPLYcmLo1crtG+RB-joScY9UaZckUt5_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA79VLrUMxc1xEGgmwNBauWrdTq5No-uy0sqKUG_dEP2zDA50A@mail.gmail.com>

"Common impedance coupling"
Yeah, and it's a lot more "common" than I would like!
A ring modulator board I made had persistent feedthrough - culprit  was a
little bit of common impedance (that is, PCB ground) with the power supply
rectifier and this resulted in the local oscillator mixing with 50Hz and
generating two sidebands that sounded like leakage from the oscillator
(down in the noise, so you couldn't see it on a scope, but you could hear
enough to be infuriating.)
Could have sorted it with that probe, I expect. Lucky nobody offered me one
for $1,200 that day...

paul perry melbourne australia


On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 1:41 AM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> > Could even apply to DC scenarios. Imagine the CV input line to your VCO
> is shared with a line that carries a few amperes of DC current (or, more
> likely, the ground reference for the CV input).
>
> "Common impedance coupling".
>
> Neil
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Wed Jan 19 01:03:13 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 16:03:13 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8CE6A39-65A9-43B0-9510-0B5146076342@audiobanshee.com>

I hope I'm replying to the correct thread - this subject seems to have split into two or more threads.

Some of the reasons that chip designers think in terms of current rather than voltage:

1) BJT are current-controlled current sources.

Sure, you can use resistors on the input and output to change these currents into voltages, but:

2) Resistors are *way* more expensive inside a chip than they are on a board. Thus, chip designers are more likely to create a constant current source rather than a resistance, again pushing them towards thinking in terms of currents.

3) I think that FET are voltage-controlled current sources, but maybe that's not the most precise way to describe them. I know less about FET chip design than BJT chip design. Of course, the venerated TL07x and TL08x op-amps are JFET inputs, making them voltage-controlled on the inputs, but op-amps ideally have no current flowing on the inputs. Probably the entire rest of the op-amp circuit is current rather than voltage.

Brian



Am 14.01.2022 um 05:10 schrieb Paul Perry via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
> I'm not an EE, but one thing I have noticed is that the people who design the chips think in terms of current, and the people (like me) who use them, are likelier to think in terms of voltage. Not that it matters, since V=IR. Probably base amateurs like myself think of voltage because it is easier to see on scopes and meters.




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Wed Jan 19 13:20:07 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:20:07 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <475FFD4F-3FDE-45A8-B84D-5613F7BDC9FB@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_TgdWsN-tM+ayApPx4CULLcDnrwy3UB0kkAksWXE4vkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <475FFD4F-3FDE-45A8-B84D-5613F7BDC9FB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8BcNE74dHbzCQTmgNZHqQHqy9-Ge2p41z6LwuNHxxxgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 2:54 PM Ingo Debus via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Am 18.01.2022 um 09:25 schrieb cheater cheater <cheater00social at gmail.com>:
>
> jesus, that's a grand for a probe. but it's no contact, so that's
> nice... how does it work?
>
>
> You can spend much more for a current probe.

I bet!

> Quote from the instruction manual
> (https://resources.aimtti.com/manuals/I-prober_Instruction_Manual-Iss7.pdf, introduction, on page 2):
>
> "This current probe employs a sensing method generally known as a fluxgate magnetometer, and
> measures the magnetic field surrounding the electric current. The magnetometer consists of a small
> coil of wire surrounding a core made of an advanced material with special magnetic properties. An
> excitation current (at approximately 40MHz) is passed through the coil, which magnetises the core
> alternately in opposite directions. If there is no external magnetic field, this magnetisation is
> symmetrical. When an external field is applied, the resulting asymmetry is detected by a feedback
> loop which applies an opposing current through the coil to restore the net field to zero. The output
> voltage is proportional to this opposing current, and therefore to the magnitude of the field?
>
> Ingo

The explanation is kind of spongy... Are they measuring the B-field
around a wire? As in what's explained here:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magcur.html

In that case, does the measured value depend on the angle of the probe
vs the conductor? It feels like it should.

Does the probe provide absolute amplitude measurement, or is it purely
a relative amplitude measurement device? I.e. will 2A in the circuit
always be, say, two div on the scope, or will it change, but the shape
of an AC signal will be mostly the same?

Is this probe "just" a very tightly wrapped coil of (gold?) wire in
the tip + an auto-gain compensation circuit in the handle? Feels like
we should be able to recreate that...

Thanks



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Wed Jan 19 13:22:50 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:22:50 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically
more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative
swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more
or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I
bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> > This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
>
> Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
>
> If we take Dave's approach:
> - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
> - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on the
> quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
>
> With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
> And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
>
> Cheers,
> Neil
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From btremblay at me.com  Wed Jan 19 14:43:32 2022
From: btremblay at me.com (Benjamin Tremblay)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:43:32 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <475FFD4F-3FDE-45A8-B84D-5613F7BDC9FB@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_TgdWsN-tM+ayApPx4CULLcDnrwy3UB0kkAksWXE4vkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <475FFD4F-3FDE-45A8-B84D-5613F7BDC9FB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15C7D265-2DA8-4B7C-B1D8-C164675C4BDD@me.com>

As a software engineer I see voltage as ?interface? and current as ?implementation?. 
Voltage measures what ?should? be there. Current describes the electrons in motion. When you implement electronics you are concerned with manipulating currents. When you are all done with your breadboard, you buffer the outputs and inputs to make them work the way the ?should? with voltages. Of course there are exceptions where it?s the voltage at the input of a semiconductor that matters, but once that semiconductor is in a network of components, it?s current that gets the voltage where you want it.

So being able to think 90% of the time in current is productive. 


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Wed Jan 19 18:47:55 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:47:55 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>

I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little bit.
However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times in many
different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear VCA from 2164,
you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I keep a pile of LM336Z5
for just this purpose, and use two opamps to buffer and invert this to get
low-output-impedance +5V and -5V references on all my multipliers.  If one
uses precisely matched resistors on the inverter, then one can get those
references within a mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter
(and it is usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and
opposite, then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of
the keys to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.

I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal increases
the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't care at all
about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to pre-condition the
incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is unchanged, and the DC reference
levels are simply summed to the incoming signal.

If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the resistor
values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my one-VCA
four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in the Freak Shift,
made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish the CV such that the
zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full +/- unity-gain
multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This gives lots of headroom
-- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to hit
zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will never be
anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the multiplication.  I
achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 200k while using 100k on
the reference voltages.  Of course, the signal is now cut in half as well,
so I simply double the feedback resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as
all of these 100k and 200k resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the
100k and 200k resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only
need to be precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC
coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant
multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.



-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
To: Neil Johnson
Cc: SDIY List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically more
distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative swing, whereas
my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more or less
symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I bet it would
matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> > This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply by. In
Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's graph should
be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why the level-shifting
solution is so effective and it is also why I believe Rutger is correct to
call this a one quadrant multiplier.
>
> Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
>
> If we take Dave's approach:
> - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
> - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on the 
> quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
>
> With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
> And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
>
> Cheers,
> Neil
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mars at pingdynasty.com  Thu Jan 20 10:06:19 2022
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 10:06:19 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Voltage vs current, was Low voltage synthesis?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8BcNE74dHbzCQTmgNZHqQHqy9-Ge2p41z6LwuNHxxxgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-963JVgsoSmckfpW0mj_YxdJ37P2P=ceTgxiG7++mbyzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <71b5b8f6a4894e41a4f883c01c8c610c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--KymAwS8LCrGutatpA9MCsNxE1Jmd_XwnhGhk1j0ZRHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430d11623df94145b59b697f40a956b3@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADwhBTGvZnntvBXGAhkhHxaVLN78aQVYit7dRB4339+rC+ghNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <602DD78C-C861-4547-B9D0-36880748150B@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_TgdWsN-tM+ayApPx4CULLcDnrwy3UB0kkAksWXE4vkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <475FFD4F-3FDE-45A8-B84D-5613F7BDC9FB@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8BcNE74dHbzCQTmgNZHqQHqy9-Ge2p41z6LwuNHxxxgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48038b55-a616-fc7d-0643-dacce632ef24@pingdynasty.com>


On 19/01/2022 13:20, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> In that case, does the measured value depend on the angle of the probe
> vs the conductor? It feels like it should.
>
> Does the probe provide absolute amplitude measurement, or is it purely
> a relative amplitude measurement device? I.e. will 2A in the circuit
> always be, say, two div on the scope, or will it change, but the shape
> of an AC signal will be mostly the same?
that, and more, is explained rather well but long-windedly in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmCvrGVtC0M


Martin



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan 20 16:25:12 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:25:12 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts
higher harmonics more than lower harmonics.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little bit.
> However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times in many
> different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear VCA from 2164,
> you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I keep a pile of LM336Z5
> for just this purpose, and use two opamps to buffer and invert this to get
> low-output-impedance +5V and -5V references on all my multipliers.  If one
> uses precisely matched resistors on the inverter, then one can get those
> references within a mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter
> (and it is usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and
> opposite, then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of
> the keys to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
>
> I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal increases
> the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't care at all
> about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to pre-condition the
> incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is unchanged, and the DC reference
> levels are simply summed to the incoming signal.
>
> If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the resistor
> values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my one-VCA
> four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in the Freak Shift,
> made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish the CV such that the
> zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full +/- unity-gain
> multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This gives lots of headroom
> -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to hit
> zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will never be
> anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the multiplication.  I
> achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 200k while using 100k on
> the reference voltages.  Of course, the signal is now cut in half as well,
> so I simply double the feedback resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as
> all of these 100k and 200k resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the
> 100k and 200k resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only
> need to be precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC
> coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant
> multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
> To: Neil Johnson
> Cc: SDIY List
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>
> I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically more
> distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative swing, whereas
> my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more or less
> symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I bet it would
> matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > > This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
> multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply by. In
> Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's graph should
> be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why the level-shifting
> solution is so effective and it is also why I believe Rutger is correct to
> call this a one quadrant multiplier.
> >
> > Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
> >
> > If we take Dave's approach:
> > - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
> > - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on the
> > quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
> >
> > With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
> > And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Neil
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 20 18:17:47 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 17:17:47 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a0a19bb6e86e4eadbec7907dea8151d7@futurehorizons.com>

Yes :-)

But infinitely easier if you go digital 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: 20 January 2022 15:25
To: David G Dixon
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher harmonics more than lower harmonics.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little bit.
> However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times 
> in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear 
> VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I 
> keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to 
> buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V 
> references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched 
> resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a 
> mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is 
> usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite, 
> then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
>
> I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal 
> increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't 
> care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to 
> pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is 
> unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming signal.
>
> If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the 
> resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my 
> one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in 
> the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish 
> the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full 
> +/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This 
> gives lots of headroom
> -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to 
> hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will 
> never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the 
> multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 
> 200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the 
> signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback 
> resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k 
> resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k 
> resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be 
> precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC 
> coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
> To: Neil Johnson
> Cc: SDIY List
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>
> I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically 
> more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative 
> swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more 
> or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I 
> bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > > This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
> multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply 
> by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's 
> graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why 
> the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I 
> believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
> >
> > Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
> >
> > If we take Dave's approach:
> > - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
> > - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on 
> > the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
> >
> > With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
> > And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Neil
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan 20 18:35:23 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 18:35:23 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <a0a19bb6e86e4eadbec7907dea8151d7@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <a0a19bb6e86e4eadbec7907dea8151d7@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9moFyOVdOFyfxOREemdF=W-cAGMKu7grf0occz9qHz5w@mail.gmail.com>

How would you do it?

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 6:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Yes :-)
>
> But infinitely easier if you go digital
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 20 January 2022 15:25
> To: David G Dixon
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher harmonics more than lower harmonics.
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> >
> > I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little bit.
> > However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times
> > in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear
> > VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I
> > keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to
> > buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V
> > references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched
> > resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a
> > mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is
> > usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite,
> > then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
> >
> > I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal
> > increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't
> > care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to
> > pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is
> > unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming signal.
> >
> > If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the
> > resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my
> > one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in
> > the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish
> > the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full
> > +/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This
> > gives lots of headroom
> > -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to
> > hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will
> > never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the
> > multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through
> > 200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the
> > signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback
> > resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k
> > resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k
> > resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be
> > precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC
> > coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> > cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
> > To: Neil Johnson
> > Cc: SDIY List
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
> >
> > [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
> >
> > I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically
> > more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative
> > swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more
> > or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I
> > bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
> > multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply
> > by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's
> > graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why
> > the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I
> > believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
> > >
> > > Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
> > >
> > > If we take Dave's approach:
> > > - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
> > > - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on
> > > the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
> > >
> > > With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
> > > And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Neil
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Jan 20 19:02:29 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 10:02:29 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>

I suppose that anything is possible, cheater.  However, not really with a
Bode frequency shifter, which is what the Freak Shift is.

In case y'all didn't know, the Bode frequency shifter is really just a
trigonometric engine.  It realizes the so-called angle sum and difference
identities, and this gives the frequency shifting.  It will shift the
frequencies accurately over whatever frequency range that the Dome filters
give accurate 90-degree phase shift, and will give inaccurate shifting
outside of that range.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:25 AM
To: David G Dixon
Cc: Neil Johnson; synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher
harmonics more than lower harmonics.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little
bit.
> However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times 
> in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear 
> VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I 
> keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to 
> buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V 
> references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched 
> resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a 
> mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is 
> usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite, 
> then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys
to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
>
> I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal 
> increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't 
> care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to 
> pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is 
> unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming
signal.
>
> If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the 
> resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my 
> one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in 
> the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish 
> the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full 
> +/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This 
> gives lots of headroom
> -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to 
> hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will 
> never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the 
> multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 
> 200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the 
> signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback 
> resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k 
> resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k 
> resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be 
> precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC 
> coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant
multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
> To: Neil Johnson
> Cc: SDIY List
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>
> I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically 
> more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative 
> swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more 
> or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I 
> bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > > This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
> multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply 
> by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's 
> graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why 
> the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I 
> believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
> >
> > Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
> >
> > If we take Dave's approach:
> > - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
> > - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on 
> > the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
> >
> > With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
> > And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Neil
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 20 19:07:07 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 18:07:07 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9moFyOVdOFyfxOREemdF=W-cAGMKu7grf0occz9qHz5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <a0a19bb6e86e4eadbec7907dea8151d7@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9moFyOVdOFyfxOREemdF=W-cAGMKu7grf0occz9qHz5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c656bd9da8403da1aba8d9ace3a1f9@futurehorizons.com>

Can be done various ways.

You could use a ShortTerm Fourier Transform, then simply reconstruct the signal by summing DFTs at different sampling rates for each frequency band.  This will have a few problems, such as discontinuities at the joins between the transforms which need filtering before feeding to the DFT bank.

Another way is to feed the signal to a wavelet filter bank to produce a Continuous Wavelet Transform, transform the mother transform reconstruction coefficients according to whatever pitch raise you want by frequency, then reform the audio signal from the new coefficients.  



-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 20 January 2022 17:35
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: David G Dixon; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

How would you do it?

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 6:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Yes :-)
>
> But infinitely easier if you go digital
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 20 January 2022 15:25
> To: David G Dixon
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher harmonics more than lower harmonics.
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> >
> > I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little bit.
> > However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times 
> > in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear 
> > VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I 
> > keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to 
> > buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V 
> > references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched 
> > resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within 
> > a mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is 
> > usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite, 
> > then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
> >
> > I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal 
> > increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also 
> > don't care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't 
> > have to pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is 
> > unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming signal.
> >
> > If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the 
> > resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my 
> > one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in 
> > the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and 
> > diminish the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V 
> > and full
> > +/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This
> > gives lots of headroom
> > -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier 
> > to hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal 
> > will never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on 
> > the multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in 
> > through 200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, 
> > the signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the 
> > feedback resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 
> > 100k and 200k resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k 
> > and 200k resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only 
> > need to be precise within their own values), and all incoming 
> > signals are AC coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf 
> > Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
> > To: Neil Johnson
> > Cc: SDIY List
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
> >
> > [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
> >
> > I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically 
> > more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative 
> > swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more 
> > or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? 
> > I bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
> > multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply 
> > by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of 
> > Neil's graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That 
> > is why the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also 
> > why I believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
> > >
> > > Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
> > >
> > > If we take Dave's approach:
> > > - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
> > > - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on 
> > > the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
> > >
> > > With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
> > > And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Neil
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>




From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 19:11:33 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 18:11:33 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9moFyOVdOFyfxOREemdF=W-cAGMKu7grf0occz9qHz5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <a0a19bb6e86e4eadbec7907dea8151d7@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9moFyOVdOFyfxOREemdF=W-cAGMKu7grf0occz9qHz5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m7k1jev25bqo0y9y2yjkylfn.1642702293851@email.android.com>

Pitch shifter! ;-)

-Richie,

Sent from my Xperia SP on O2

---- cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote ----

>How would you do it?
>
>On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 6:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes :-)
>>
>> But infinitely easier if you go digital
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 20 January 2022 15:25
>> To: David G Dixon
>> Cc: synth-diy
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>>
>> I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher harmonics more than lower harmonics.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> > I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little bit.
>> > However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times
>> > in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear
>> > VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I
>> > keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to
>> > buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V
>> > references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched
>> > resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a
>> > mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is
>> > usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite,
>> > then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
>> >
>> > I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal
>> > increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't
>> > care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to
>> > pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is
>> > unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming signal.
>> >
>> > If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the
>> > resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my
>> > one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in
>> > the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish
>> > the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full
>> > +/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This
>> > gives lots of headroom
>> > -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to
>> > hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will
>> > never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the
>> > multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through
>> > 200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the
>> > signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback
>> > resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k
>> > resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k
>> > resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be
>> > precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC
>> > coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
>> > cheater cheater via Synth-diy
>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
>> > To: Neil Johnson
>> > Cc: SDIY List
>> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>> >
>> > [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>> >
>> > I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically
>> > more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative
>> > swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more
>> > or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I
>> > bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
>> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
>> > multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply
>> > by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's
>> > graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why
>> > the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I
>> > believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
>> > >
>> > > Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
>> > >
>> > > If we take Dave's approach:
>> > > - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
>> > > - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on
>> > > the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
>> > >
>> > > With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
>> > > And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Neil
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From sines_list at scale.la  Thu Jan 20 19:32:05 2022
From: sines_list at scale.la (Todd Sines)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:32:05 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>

I?m not very dialed in with the math, but I would say that Harald?s analogue design is the one to beat, and Don?s was more of a quasi-kludged modular building block that had mixed results. The math was right but the sound was a bit different, from what I can tell. 

The 185 is basically a dual mixer that combines 2 phase shifters and a ring modulator that are hard wired as a hopped up ring modulator. 
Daniel (LA67) himself mentions that the Bode / Haible design is an ?easier, flexible, and more modern" route to go.
https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211951

As you can see even a smaller clone can be quite costly.
https://reverb.com/item/3590031-analogue-systems-rs-240-bode-frequency-shifter
http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/pro_c1630.html [970?]

The 285 rev 2, all analogue, does all of the above but puts all of the above components accessible on the panel to utilize the sections on their own.
https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194345

The 285 rev 1 design, based on a Spin FV1 DSP IC is ?reasonable? according to Dave Brown
https://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla285_fv1/buchla285_fv1.htm
"While not as good as the original all-analog frequency shifter, the performance is reasonable and the sound qualities are quite nice."

Haible?s design is still available, somehow, for sale at Random Source.
https://randomsource.net/haible/vintage
http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a



Todd

> On Jan 20, 2022, at 1:02 29PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I suppose that anything is possible, cheater.  However, not really with a
> Bode frequency shifter, which is what the Freak Shift is.
> 
> In case y'all didn't know, the Bode frequency shifter is really just a
> trigonometric engine.  It realizes the so-called angle sum and difference
> identities, and this gives the frequency shifting.  It will shift the
> frequencies accurately over whatever frequency range that the Dome filters
> give accurate 90-degree phase shift, and will give inaccurate shifting
> outside of that range.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:25 AM
> To: David G Dixon
> Cc: Neil Johnson; synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
> 
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
> 
> I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher
> harmonics more than lower harmonics.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little
> bit.
>> However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times 
>> in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear 
>> VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I 
>> keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to 
>> buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V 
>> references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched 
>> resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a 
>> mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is 
>> usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite, 
>> then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys
> to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
>> 
>> I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal 
>> increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't 
>> care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to 
>> pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is 
>> unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming
> signal.
>> 
>> If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the 
>> resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my 
>> one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in 
>> the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish 
>> the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full 
>> +/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This 
>> gives lots of headroom
>> -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to 
>> hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will 
>> never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the 
>> multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 
>> 200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the 
>> signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback 
>> resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k 
>> resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k 
>> resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be 
>> precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC 
>> coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant
> multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
>> To: Neil Johnson
>> Cc: SDIY List
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>> 
>> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>> 
>> I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically 
>> more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative 
>> swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more 
>> or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I 
>> bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
>> multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply 
>> by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's 
>> graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why 
>> the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I 
>> believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
>>> 
>>> Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
>>> 
>>> If we take Dave's approach:
>>> - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
>>> - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on 
>>> the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
>>> 
>>> With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
>>> And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Neil
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Jan 20 20:27:51 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 11:27:51 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
Message-ID: <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>

There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and everyone seems to be impressed with their performance.  Plus, the price is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode frequency shifters cost.  (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, and each one takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.)
 
Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the Freak Shift is the analogue design to beat.

  _____  

From: Todd Sines [mailto:sines_list at scale.la] 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:32 AM
To: synth-diy
Cc: David G Dixon; cheater cheater
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164


[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]	
I?m not very dialed in with the math, but I would say that Harald?s analogue design is the one to beat, and Don?s was more of a quasi-kludged modular building block that had mixed results. The math was right but the sound was a bit different, from what I can tell.  

The 185 is basically a dual mixer that combines 2 phase shifters and a ring modulator that are hard wired as a hopped up ring modulator. 
Daniel (LA67) himself mentions that the Bode / Haible design is an ?easier, flexible, and more modern" route to go.
https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211951

As you can see even a smaller clone can be quite costly.
https://reverb.com/item/3590031-analogue-systems-rs-240-bode-frequency-shifter
http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/pro_c1630.html [970?]

The 285 rev 2, all analogue, does all of the above but puts all of the above components accessible on the panel to utilize the sections on their own.

https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194345

The 285 rev 1 design, based on a Spin FV1 DSP IC is ?reasonable? according to Dave Brown
https://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla285_fv1/buchla285_fv1.htm
"While not as good as the original all-analog frequency shifter, the performance is reasonable and the sound qualities are quite nice."

Haible?s design is still available, somehow, for sale at Random Source.
https://randomsource.net/haible/vintage
http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a



Todd


On Jan 20, 2022, at 1:02 29PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

I suppose that anything is possible, cheater.  However, not really with a
Bode frequency shifter, which is what the Freak Shift is.

In case y'all didn't know, the Bode frequency shifter is really just a
trigonometric engine.  It realizes the so-called angle sum and difference
identities, and this gives the frequency shifting.  It will shift the
frequencies accurately over whatever frequency range that the Dome filters
give accurate 90-degree phase shift, and will give inaccurate shifting
outside of that range.



-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:25 AM
To: David G Dixon
Cc: Neil Johnson; synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher
harmonics more than lower harmonics.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:



I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little


bit.


However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times 
in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear 
VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I 
keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to 
buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V 
references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched 
resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a 
mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is 
usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite, 
then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys


to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.



I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal 
increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't 
care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to 
pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is 
unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming


signal.



If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the 
resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my 
one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in 
the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish 
the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full 
+/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This 
gives lots of headroom
-- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to 
hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will 
never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the 
multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 
200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the 
signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback 
resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k 
resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k 
resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be 
precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC 
coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant


multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.





-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
To: Neil Johnson
Cc: SDIY List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically 
more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative 
swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more 
or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I 
bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:



This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when


multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply 
by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's 
graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why 
the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I 
believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.



Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.

If we take Dave's approach:
- convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
- add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on 
the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)

With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.

Cheers,
Neil

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



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From sines_list at scale.la  Thu Jan 20 20:36:46 2022
From: sines_list at scale.la (Todd Sines)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:36:46 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <3CEF5AAA-42EE-4805-B3B8-88941E37F530@scale.la>

Ah ha!  Found it, can?t say you made it easy to track down
https://www.modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=246966

Would happily buy one of the Lazertran panel modules from you.

I am also building the 185 and 2 285s so you can see I like to get freaky.


Todd

> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:27 51PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> 
> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and everyone seems to be impressed with their performance.  Plus, the price is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode frequency shifters cost.  (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, and each one takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.)
>  
> Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the Freak Shift is the analogue design to beat.
> 
> From: Todd Sines [mailto:sines_list at scale.la] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:32 AM
> To: synth-diy
> Cc: David G Dixon; cheater cheater
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
> 
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
> I?m not very dialed in with the math, but I would say that Harald?s analogue design is the one to beat, and Don?s was more of a quasi-kludged modular building block that had mixed results. The math was right but the sound was a bit different, from what I can tell. 
> 
> The 185 is basically a dual mixer that combines 2 phase shifters and a ring modulator that are hard wired as a hopped up ring modulator. 
> Daniel (LA67) himself mentions that the Bode / Haible design is an ?easier, flexible, and more modern" route to go.
> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211951 <https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211951>
> 
> As you can see even a smaller clone can be quite costly.
> https://reverb.com/item/3590031-analogue-systems-rs-240-bode-frequency-shifter <https://reverb.com/item/3590031-analogue-systems-rs-240-bode-frequency-shifter>
> http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/pro_c1630.html <http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/pro_c1630.html> [970?]
> 
> The 285 rev 2, all analogue, does all of the above but puts all of the above components accessible on the panel to utilize the sections on their own.
> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194345 <https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194345>
> 
> The 285 rev 1 design, based on a Spin FV1 DSP IC is ?reasonable? according to Dave Brown
> https://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla285_fv1/buchla285_fv1.htm <https://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla285_fv1/buchla285_fv1.htm>
> "While not as good as the original all-analog frequency shifter, the performance is reasonable and the sound qualities are quite nice."
> 
> Haible?s design is still available, somehow, for sale at Random Source.
> https://randomsource.net/haible/vintage <https://randomsource.net/haible/vintage>
> http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a <http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a>
> 
> 
> 
> Todd
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 1:02 29PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> I suppose that anything is possible, cheater.  However, not really with a
>> Bode frequency shifter, which is what the Freak Shift is.
>> 
>> In case y'all didn't know, the Bode frequency shifter is really just a
>> trigonometric engine.  It realizes the so-called angle sum and difference
>> identities, and this gives the frequency shifting.  It will shift the
>> frequencies accurately over whatever frequency range that the Dome filters
>> give accurate 90-degree phase shift, and will give inaccurate shifting
>> outside of that range.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com <mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com>] 
>> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:25 AM
>> To: David G Dixon
>> Cc: Neil Johnson; synth-diy
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>> 
>> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>> 
>> I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher
>> harmonics more than lower harmonics.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca <mailto:dixon at mail.ubc.ca>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little
>> bit.
>>> However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times 
>>> in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear 
>>> VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I 
>>> keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to 
>>> buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V 
>>> references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched 
>>> resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a 
>>> mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is 
>>> usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite, 
>>> then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys
>> to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
>>> 
>>> I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal 
>>> increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't 
>>> care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to 
>>> pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is 
>>> unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming
>> signal.
>>> 
>>> If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the 
>>> resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my 
>>> one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in 
>>> the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish 
>>> the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full 
>>> +/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This 
>>> gives lots of headroom
>>> -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to 
>>> hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will 
>>> never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the 
>>> multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 
>>> 200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the 
>>> signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback 
>>> resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k 
>>> resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k 
>>> resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be 
>>> precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC 
>>> coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant
>> multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of 
>>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
>>> To: Neil Johnson
>>> Cc: SDIY List
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>>> 
>>> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>>> 
>>> I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically 
>>> more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative 
>>> swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more 
>>> or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I 
>>> bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
>>> multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply 
>>> by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's 
>>> graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why 
>>> the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I 
>>> believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
>>>> 
>>>> If we take Dave's approach:
>>>> - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
>>>> - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on 
>>>> the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
>>>> 
>>>> With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
>>>> And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Neil
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 

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From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 20 20:43:09 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:43:09 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <62c656bd9da8403da1aba8d9ace3a1f9@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <a0a19bb6e86e4eadbec7907dea8151d7@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9moFyOVdOFyfxOREemdF=W-cAGMKu7grf0occz9qHz5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <62c656bd9da8403da1aba8d9ace3a1f9@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <f9f8d62d-ef4e-71ed-88b6-4b2cc597ce6e@gmail.com>

I've used a phase vocoder to do it. Similar to the STFT approach that 
Mike described:

* Chop the incoming signal into FFT-sized records with overlapping.
* Window and FFT.
* Convert the frequency domain data to polar notation and and 
differentiate phase from the previous pass.
* Scale phase delta and magnitude to new bins for the shift.
* Accumulate the scaled per-bin phase deltas in output accumulators.
* Convert phase accumulators and magnitude back to cartesian.
* Inverse FFT and overlap Add into the output time domain stream.

Works pretty well but has a fairly long latency and a bit of modulation 
artifacting due to the FFT rate.

Eric

On 1/20/22 11:07, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Can be done various ways.
> 
> You could use a ShortTerm Fourier Transform, then simply reconstruct the signal by summing DFTs at different sampling rates for each frequency band.  This will have a few problems, such as discontinuities at the joins between the transforms which need filtering before feeding to the DFT bank.
> 
> Another way is to feed the signal to a wavelet filter bank to produce a Continuous Wavelet Transform, transform the mother transform reconstruction coefficients according to whatever pitch raise you want by frequency, then reform the audio signal from the new coefficients.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 20 January 2022 17:35
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: David G Dixon; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
> 
> How would you do it?
> 
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 6:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes :-)
>>
>> But infinitely easier if you go digital
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 20 January 2022 15:25
>> To: David G Dixon
>> Cc: synth-diy
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>>
>> I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher harmonics more than lower harmonics.



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Jan 20 21:57:00 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:57:00 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <3CEF5AAA-42EE-4805-B3B8-88941E37F530@scale.la>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <3CEF5AAA-42EE-4805-B3B8-88941E37F530@scale.la>
Message-ID: <0004FC66B9BF45C4B1ED23BFA415ADDA@david78c70950b>

Hey Todd, there's no need for an ugly old Lazertran panel.  I have shiny, beautiful Metalphoto-of-Cincinnati panels now.  I'm also making Dotcom-format ones with laser-engraved Dotcom panel blanks.  Pictures attached.
 
 
  _____  

From: Todd Sines [mailto:sines_list at scale.la] 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 11:37 AM
To: David G Dixon
Cc: synth-diy; cheater cheater
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164


[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]	
Ah ha!  Found it, can?t say you made it easy to track down 
https://www.modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16 <https://www.modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=246966> &t=246966

Would happily buy one of the Lazertran panel modules from you.

I am also building the 185 and 2 285s so you can see I like to get freaky.


Todd


On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:27 51PM, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:

There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and everyone seems to be impressed with their performance.  Plus, the price is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode frequency shifters cost.  (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, and each one takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.)
 
Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the Freak Shift is the analogue design to beat.

  _____  

From: Todd Sines [mailto:sines_list at scale.la] 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:32 AM
To: synth-diy
Cc: David G Dixon; cheater cheater
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164


[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]	
I?m not very dialed in with the math, but I would say that Harald?s analogue design is the one to beat, and Don?s was more of a quasi-kludged modular building block that had mixed results. The math was right but the sound was a bit different, from what I can tell.  

The 185 is basically a dual mixer that combines 2 phase shifters and a ring modulator that are hard wired as a hopped up ring modulator. 
Daniel (LA67) himself mentions that the Bode / Haible design is an ?easier, flexible, and more modern" route to go.
https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211951

As you can see even a smaller clone can be quite costly.
https://reverb.com/item/3590031-analogue-systems-rs-240-bode-frequency-shifter
http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/pro_c1630.html [970?]

The 285 rev 2, all analogue, does all of the above but puts all of the above components accessible on the panel to utilize the sections on their own.

https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194345

The 285 rev 1 design, based on a Spin FV1 DSP IC is ?reasonable? according to Dave Brown
https://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla285_fv1/buchla285_fv1.htm
"While not as good as the original all-analog frequency shifter, the performance is reasonable and the sound qualities are quite nice."

Haible?s design is still available, somehow, for sale at Random Source.
https://randomsource.net/haible/vintage
http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a



Todd


On Jan 20, 2022, at 1:02 29PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

I suppose that anything is possible, cheater.  However, not really with a
Bode frequency shifter, which is what the Freak Shift is.

In case y'all didn't know, the Bode frequency shifter is really just a
trigonometric engine.  It realizes the so-called angle sum and difference
identities, and this gives the frequency shifting.  It will shift the
frequencies accurately over whatever frequency range that the Dome filters
give accurate 90-degree phase shift, and will give inaccurate shifting
outside of that range.



-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:25 AM
To: David G Dixon
Cc: Neil Johnson; synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher
harmonics more than lower harmonics.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:



I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little


bit.


However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times 
in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear 
VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I 
keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to 
buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V 
references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched 
resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a 
mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is 
usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite, 
then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys


to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.



I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal 
increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't 
care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to 
pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is 
unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming


signal.



If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the 
resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my 
one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in 
the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish 
the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full 
+/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This 
gives lots of headroom
-- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to 
hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will 
never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the 
multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 
200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the 
signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback 
resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k 
resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k 
resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be 
precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC 
coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant


multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.





-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
To: Neil Johnson
Cc: SDIY List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically 
more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative 
swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more 
or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I 
bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:



This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when


multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply 
by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's 
graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why 
the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I 
believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.



Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.

If we take Dave's approach:
- convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
- add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on 
the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)

With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.

Cheers,
Neil

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 21 01:59:35 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 01:59:35 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 8:28 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world
> I build each one by hand, and each one takes me about 5 hours

What makes them so time-consuming to build?


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Fri Jan 21 05:34:32 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:34:32 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>

First of all, printing, transferring and etching PCBs is a royal pain in the
ass.  The worst part is that nobody makes a laserjet printer as good as the
old beige cube HP2100.  The new ones just aren't as good, so the transfers
are never that great.  That means a lot of correcting of the transferred
image with a fine-point felt-tip pen.  I make four board sets at a time, and
just getting them ready to etch takes over an hour, so that's at least 15
minutes per unit.  Etching of all 20 boards takes about half an hour because
I've developed a system where I lay four of the boards on the bottom of the
dish and etch the panel board first, then by the time I get the fourth
circuit board out, it is already nearly etched.  Plus, the solution heats up
as I go from the exothermic oxidation reactions, so it gets a little faster.
So, now I'm up to about 20 minutes per unit.  After that, I build them one
at a time.

Drilling each set takes one hour (there are about 1000 holes altogether, and
I redrill them all from the back to make nice holes), so now I'm up to 1:20.
Cleaning off the transfer with acetone and tinning them all takes another 10
minutes, so 1:30.

Cutting all of the jumper wires takes about 10 minutes, and stuffing and
soldering them takes about 15 minutes.  I also stuff the panel and
translator boards, and assemble them, which takes about 10 minutes, so 2:05.

Next, I install all of the bulk resistors -- there are 4 499R, 5 1k, 2 4.7k,
11 30k, 4 100k, 1 511k, and 61 10k to install, so 88 bulk resistors in all.
Then I have to pull 10 hand-sorted 100k and 4 hand-sorted 200k out of their
baggies and install them, so that's now 102 resistors to bend, cut, stuff
and solder.  That all takes about 40 minutes, I'm guessing, so now it's
2:45.

Next I have to pull 60 different valued resistors out of 60 different bags,
bend, cut, stuff and solder them.  That takes another 40 minutes, I'm
guessing, so 3:25.

Next I finish stuffing the top PCB (multipliers and 5V supply), including 10
ceramic caps, 3 IC sockets, 10 electrolytic caps, and 1 LM336.  15 minutes,
3:40.

Next I install the other 17 IC sockets on the other two boards, then I have
to consult my computer inventory to figure out which Dome filter film caps
to stuff -- they are all hand-sorted into 0.2% bins, and I have to make sets
of 12 and 18 caps from four different values, all with the same mantissa.
That, then stuffing and soldering, takes 15 minutes, so 3:55.

Then I do final assembly: pin headers and sockets, plugging the boards
together, and installing the spacers and screws.  That takes about 20
minutes, so 4:15.

Then I do the first tests and adjustments; I test the two Dome filters --
making circular Lissajous figures from a sine wave over two different
frequency ranges.  Then I adjust a couple of trimmers to eliminate the
multiplier signals when there is no CV.  Finally, I test the multipliers,
looking for symmetrical outputs when CV is applied.  That all takes about 10
minutes, so 4:25.

Then I take the unit into the house and install the panel and knobs --
another 10 minutes, so 4:35.

Then final testing with my guitar to make sure the output amps work
(everything else is tested) and I get both frequency shifting and phasing,
the MOD and SIN/COS inputs both work as expected, and the WET/DRY and
SUM/DIFF pots work as they should, and all outputs work as expected.
Another 10 minutes, so 4:45.

Finally, I print out the mailing label, pack the unit and tape it up.
Another 10 minutes.  So, grand total, 4:55.  That's an estimate, but it's
close.  If something goes wrong and I have to do any troubleshooting, that
can easily add an hour.  Luckily, 4 out of 5 work perfectly, and when there
is a problem, it is usually obvious (e.g., a solder bridge or broken trace).

Remember, you asked.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 5:00 PM
To: David G Dixon
Cc: Todd Sines; synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 8:28 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world I 
> build each one by hand, and each one takes me about 5 hours

What makes them so time-consuming to build?



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 21 06:11:49 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 06:11:49 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_pFLeZTt1MYKMGo+rvap1FZi3Eu_n686rDGREBr67zJw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the breakdown, that was very interesting.

I wonder, could it sometimes be a good idea - especially if using smd
- to forego using different value resistors, and just use 1 or 2
resistor types and build up the required resistances from
serial-parallel networks of the same resistor? It would definitely be
easier to pick them out and harder to mix them up...

With TH it would definitely be way more work than just using the right
resistors.

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 5:35 AM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> First of all, printing, transferring and etching PCBs is a royal pain in the
> ass.  The worst part is that nobody makes a laserjet printer as good as the
> old beige cube HP2100.  The new ones just aren't as good, so the transfers
> are never that great.  That means a lot of correcting of the transferred
> image with a fine-point felt-tip pen.  I make four board sets at a time, and
> just getting them ready to etch takes over an hour, so that's at least 15
> minutes per unit.  Etching of all 20 boards takes about half an hour because
> I've developed a system where I lay four of the boards on the bottom of the
> dish and etch the panel board first, then by the time I get the fourth
> circuit board out, it is already nearly etched.  Plus, the solution heats up
> as I go from the exothermic oxidation reactions, so it gets a little faster.
> So, now I'm up to about 20 minutes per unit.  After that, I build them one
> at a time.
>
> Drilling each set takes one hour (there are about 1000 holes altogether, and
> I redrill them all from the back to make nice holes), so now I'm up to 1:20.
> Cleaning off the transfer with acetone and tinning them all takes another 10
> minutes, so 1:30.
>
> Cutting all of the jumper wires takes about 10 minutes, and stuffing and
> soldering them takes about 15 minutes.  I also stuff the panel and
> translator boards, and assemble them, which takes about 10 minutes, so 2:05.
>
> Next, I install all of the bulk resistors -- there are 4 499R, 5 1k, 2 4.7k,
> 11 30k, 4 100k, 1 511k, and 61 10k to install, so 88 bulk resistors in all.
> Then I have to pull 10 hand-sorted 100k and 4 hand-sorted 200k out of their
> baggies and install them, so that's now 102 resistors to bend, cut, stuff
> and solder.  That all takes about 40 minutes, I'm guessing, so now it's
> 2:45.
>
> Next I have to pull 60 different valued resistors out of 60 different bags,
> bend, cut, stuff and solder them.  That takes another 40 minutes, I'm
> guessing, so 3:25.
>
> Next I finish stuffing the top PCB (multipliers and 5V supply), including 10
> ceramic caps, 3 IC sockets, 10 electrolytic caps, and 1 LM336.  15 minutes,
> 3:40.
>
> Next I install the other 17 IC sockets on the other two boards, then I have
> to consult my computer inventory to figure out which Dome filter film caps
> to stuff -- they are all hand-sorted into 0.2% bins, and I have to make sets
> of 12 and 18 caps from four different values, all with the same mantissa.
> That, then stuffing and soldering, takes 15 minutes, so 3:55.
>
> Then I do final assembly: pin headers and sockets, plugging the boards
> together, and installing the spacers and screws.  That takes about 20
> minutes, so 4:15.
>
> Then I do the first tests and adjustments; I test the two Dome filters --
> making circular Lissajous figures from a sine wave over two different
> frequency ranges.  Then I adjust a couple of trimmers to eliminate the
> multiplier signals when there is no CV.  Finally, I test the multipliers,
> looking for symmetrical outputs when CV is applied.  That all takes about 10
> minutes, so 4:25.
>
> Then I take the unit into the house and install the panel and knobs --
> another 10 minutes, so 4:35.
>
> Then final testing with my guitar to make sure the output amps work
> (everything else is tested) and I get both frequency shifting and phasing,
> the MOD and SIN/COS inputs both work as expected, and the WET/DRY and
> SUM/DIFF pots work as they should, and all outputs work as expected.
> Another 10 minutes, so 4:45.
>
> Finally, I print out the mailing label, pack the unit and tape it up.
> Another 10 minutes.  So, grand total, 4:55.  That's an estimate, but it's
> close.  If something goes wrong and I have to do any troubleshooting, that
> can easily add an hour.  Luckily, 4 out of 5 work perfectly, and when there
> is a problem, it is usually obvious (e.g., a solder bridge or broken trace).
>
> Remember, you asked.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 5:00 PM
> To: David G Dixon
> Cc: Todd Sines; synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 8:28 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
> >
> > There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world I
> > build each one by hand, and each one takes me about 5 hours
>
> What makes them so time-consuming to build?
>


From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Fri Jan 21 07:03:15 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 22:03:15 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-_pFLeZTt1MYKMGo+rvap1FZi3Eu_n686rDGREBr67zJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V-_pFLeZTt1MYKMGo+rvap1FZi3Eu_n686rDGREBr67zJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9311953F4F7A4BF39FFEDF6B0424A50B@david78c70950b>

Hey cheater,

For my Dome filters, what I do is limit myself to round numbers for the
caps.  So, for example, for the 18-stage filter, I use 4 102s, 4 103s, 4
104s, and 6 105s.  When I have a lot of caps in my inventory, I can make
sets with all the same mantissa (within 0.2%), so, for example, I might use
988pF, 9.88nF, 98.8nF, and 988nF.  Then, I can use 18 different pairs of 1%
resistors in series to get the proper resistance values.  For example, one
of the stages requires an RC of 7.2017ms, and the cap is 104 or 100nF, so
the resistor should be 72017 ohms.  Hence, I use a 71.5k and a 511R, which
gives me (nominally, ignoring tolerances) 72011 ohms, which is within 6 ohms
or 0.008% of the target.  I have written a VB code running behind an Excel
spreadsheet which gives the the correct large resistor from the E96 series
which is just below the resistance target, then it also gives me the smaller
resistor.  I can set a 0 or a 1 to give me the smaller or larger resistor
which gives the sum nearest the target, so I can compare to minimize error.
I also have a plot of the phase displacement across the whole filter, and I
actually look at that and adjust the 0 and 1 to give the best looking
result.

Once I have all the resistor values I need (36 for the 18-stage filter),
then I organize them in zip-lock bags and arrange them in order in a plastic
tub.  Hence, stuffing the filter is just a matter of picking the bags out of
the tub one at a time, in order, and taking out each resistor.  This system
probably saves me a good half hour for each build.

Note that the resistor values don't change, even though the mantissa of the
caps can be anything from about 960 to about 1040.  As long as they are all
the same mantissa, this just changes the frequency range of the filter
slightly (a few percent up or down), and is not noticeable.  Even though
this filter is designed for a frequency range of 0.1 to 10000 Hz, it
actually gives good phase displacement well beyond those limits.



-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 9:12 PM
To: David G Dixon
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

Thanks for the breakdown, that was very interesting.

I wonder, could it sometimes be a good idea - especially if using smd
- to forego using different value resistors, and just use 1 or 2 resistor
types and build up the required resistances from serial-parallel networks of
the same resistor? It would definitely be easier to pick them out and harder
to mix them up...

With TH it would definitely be way more work than just using the right
resistors.



From markverbos at gmail.com  Fri Jan 21 10:47:45 2022
From: markverbos at gmail.com (mark verbos)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 10:47:45 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
Message-ID: <ACE6B182-3C1D-46F6-95A2-964C7119A2BF@gmail.com>

Be careful with that. The 185 info there is valid enough, but nothing in a Buchla 100 is very accurate. It could probably be trimmed to work ok by someone who knows what they are doing. 
As an owner of 2 vintage Buchla 285s and having serviced several others, I can say that none of the information you have there says anything about them.
The ?clones" that are floating around have nothing to do with the real thing besides the front panel. In 1971, Don Buchla designed a very clean sine wave oscillator and pretty good 5 octave dome filters (separate filters for each side, allowing shifting by an external signal, not just the internal VCO). If it is calibrated correctly(which they never are out in the field) it is quite successful in doing a through zero frequency shift. The multipliers are MC1494s which are impossible to find these days. I think a Bode uses the same multipliers. 

The 285e uses a digital VCO and surely a different multiplier. I assume it uses ?matched components? since I don?t think it has the 25 trimmers  (yes really) that the original uses. 
A digital VCO can have a very clean sine wave, but when it is multiplied or FM?ed it aliases and shows its weaknesses. 

Spin Semi FV-1?s are simple DSP chips intended to make guitar pedals and built in effects on amps and mixing boards. They are 24 bit and can do some nice delay based effects, but I wouldn?t call what they can do on a frequency shifter ?reasonable?.


Mark



> On Jan 20, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Todd Sines <sines_list at scale.la> wrote:
> 
> I?m not very dialed in with the math, but I would say that Harald?s analogue design is the one to beat, and Don?s was more of a quasi-kludged modular building block that had mixed results. The math was right but the sound was a bit different, from what I can tell. 
> 
> The 185 is basically a dual mixer that combines 2 phase shifters and a ring modulator that are hard wired as a hopped up ring modulator. 
> Daniel (LA67) himself mentions that the Bode / Haible design is an ?easier, flexible, and more modern" route to go.
> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211951 <https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211951>
> 
> As you can see even a smaller clone can be quite costly.
> https://reverb.com/item/3590031-analogue-systems-rs-240-bode-frequency-shifter <https://reverb.com/item/3590031-analogue-systems-rs-240-bode-frequency-shifter>
> http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/pro_c1630.html <http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/pro_c1630.html> [970?]
> 
> The 285 rev 2, all analogue, does all of the above but puts all of the above components accessible on the panel to utilize the sections on their own.
> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194345 <https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194345>
> 
> The 285 rev 1 design, based on a Spin FV1 DSP IC is ?reasonable? according to Dave Brown
> https://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla285_fv1/buchla285_fv1.htm <https://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla285_fv1/buchla285_fv1.htm>
> "While not as good as the original all-analog frequency shifter, the performance is reasonable and the sound qualities are quite nice."
> 
> Haible?s design is still available, somehow, for sale at Random Source.
> https://randomsource.net/haible/vintage <https://randomsource.net/haible/vintage>
> http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a <http://jhaible.com/legacy/frequency_shifter_fs1a/fs1a>
> 
> 
> 
> Todd
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 1:02 29PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> I suppose that anything is possible, cheater.  However, not really with a
>> Bode frequency shifter, which is what the Freak Shift is.
>> 
>> In case y'all didn't know, the Bode frequency shifter is really just a
>> trigonometric engine.  It realizes the so-called angle sum and difference
>> identities, and this gives the frequency shifting.  It will shift the
>> frequencies accurately over whatever frequency range that the Dome filters
>> give accurate 90-degree phase shift, and will give inaccurate shifting
>> outside of that range.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com <mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com>] 
>> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 7:25 AM
>> To: David G Dixon
>> Cc: Neil Johnson; synth-diy
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>> 
>> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>> 
>> I wonder if it's possible to build a frequency shifter that shifts higher
>> harmonics more than lower harmonics.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 6:48 PM David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca <mailto:dixon at mail.ubc.ca>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I must confess that I've lost the thread of this argument just a little
>> bit.
>>> However, what I like about my approach (which I have used many times 
>>> in many different contexts) is that, in order to build a nice linear 
>>> VCA from 2164, you really need to have a clean 5V source anyway.  I 
>>> keep a pile of LM336Z5 for just this purpose, and use two opamps to 
>>> buffer and invert this to get low-output-impedance +5V and -5V 
>>> references on all my multipliers.  If one uses precisely matched 
>>> resistors on the inverter, then one can get those references within a 
>>> mV of each other -- the actual voltage doesn't matter (and it is 
>>> usually around 4.90V), but as long as they are equal and opposite, 
>>> then they can be used for precise multiplication.  This is one of the keys
>> to the precision of my Freak Shift frequency shifter circuit.
>>> 
>>> I don't really understand how adding a stable DC value to a signal 
>>> increases the noise of that signal.  I must confess that I also don't 
>>> care at all about it.  My method is the simplest.  You don't have to 
>>> pre-condition the incoming signals at all.  The CV signal is 
>>> unchanged, and the DC reference levels are simply summed to the incoming
>> signal.
>>> 
>>> If you want to change the actual levels, you can simply change the 
>>> resistor values.  I do this all the time.  One of the keys to my 
>>> one-VCA four-quadrant-multiplier circuit (of which there are two in 
>>> the Freak Shift, made from a single 2164 chip) is to lift and diminish 
>>> the CV such that the zero point of the multiplier is at +5V and full 
>>> +/- unity-gain multiplication occurs between +2.5V and +7.5V.  This 
>>> gives lots of headroom
>>> -- it essentially makes it impossible for the CV in the multiplier to 
>>> hit zero at the 2164 control pin (because the incoming CV signal will 
>>> never be anywhere near 20Vpp), which would give a dead zone on the 
>>> multiplication.  I achieve this simply by bringing the CV in through 
>>> 200k while using 100k on the reference voltages.  Of course, the 
>>> signal is now cut in half as well, so I simply double the feedback 
>>> resistor on the I-V converter.  As long as all of these 100k and 200k 
>>> resistors are within 0.1% of each other (and the 100k and 200k 
>>> resistors don't need to be in a precise ratio -- they only need to be 
>>> precise within their own values), and all incoming signals are AC 
>>> coupled through big back-to-back electrolytics, then the four-quadrant
>> multiplication is very tight, which is important for frequency shifting.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of 
>>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 4:23 AM
>>> To: Neil Johnson
>>> Cc: SDIY List
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>>> 
>>> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>>> 
>>> I wonder if it matters that Dave's version will create theoretically 
>>> more distortion on the positive swing of whatever vs the negative 
>>> swing, whereas my version will apply distortion (non-linearity) more 
>>> or less symmetrically... do the numbers show that it matters at all? I 
>>> bet it would matter with some, let's say, crappy devices.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> This is certainly true but note also the importance of zero when
>>> multiplying. The zero signal stays zero no matter what you multiply 
>>> by. In Rutger's case that zero is in fact -5V, so the origin of Neil's 
>>> graph should be at -5V signal and zero control voltage. That is why 
>>> the level-shifting solution is so effective and it is also why I 
>>> believe Rutger is correct to call this a one quadrant multiplier.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, this is just a bit of algebraic juggling.
>>>> 
>>>> If we take Dave's approach:
>>>> - convert the bipolar +/- 5V input to a unipolar 0 to -10V input
>>>> - add a -5V offset to the output _after_ the VCA (so no bearing on 
>>>> the quadrantiness of the VCA itself)
>>>> 
>>>> With a unipolar CV and a unipolar signal ... a 1-quadrant VCA.
>>>> And don't forget that as-drawn the linearised VCA is inverting.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Neil
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jan 21 10:51:25 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 10:51:25 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>

87 modules, 5 hours each and you're not bored to death?
What kind of pills do you take, or what do you smoke? I'll try to get 
that stuff too.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-20 o?20:27, David G Dixon via Synth-diy pisze:
> ?
> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and 
> everyone?seems to be?impressed with?their performance.? Plus, the price 
> is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode frequency 
> shifters cost. (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, and?each 
> one?takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.)
> Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the Freak 
> Shift is the analogue design to beat.
> 
> ------------


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 21 11:11:13 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 10:11:13 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <68a332f15e17446d8a0f2e1869871d76@futurehorizons.com>

> ?
> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and 
> everyone?seems to be?impressed with?their performance.? Plus, the 
> price is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode 
> frequency shifters cost. (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, 
> and?each one?takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.) 
> Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the 
> Freak Shift is the analogue design to beat.
> 


Why don't you get them built by a low volume assembly house and get on with designing more modules ?   Or at least have the PCBs made elsewhere ?



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 21 11:15:07 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 10:15:07 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <ACE6B182-3C1D-46F6-95A2-964C7119A2BF@gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <ACE6B182-3C1D-46F6-95A2-964C7119A2BF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01f5724ca837453a91d7d98449c39767@futurehorizons.com>

?  A digital VCO can have a very clean sine wave, but when it is multiplied or FM?ed it aliases and shows its weaknesses.

Would have to be a pretty poor design to create aliases.   Every r.f. transmitter and receiver in the world does it this way nowadays.  Are you sure you don?t mean sidebands, which are created no matter how the sinewave is created ?
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From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Jan 21 11:40:21 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 10:40:21 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <68a332f15e17446d8a0f2e1869871d76@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>
 <68a332f15e17446d8a0f2e1869871d76@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <41A5E8A3-520B-4B3F-90F8-425BED571147@electricdruid.net>




> On 21 Jan 2022, at 10:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
>> ?
>> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and 
>> everyone seems to be impressed with their performance.  Plus, the 
>> price is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode 
>> frequency shifters cost. (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, 
>> and each one takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.) 
>> Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the 
>> Freak Shift is the analogue design to beat.
>> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you get them built by a low volume assembly house and get on with designing more modules ?   Or at least have the PCBs made elsewhere?


My thought too. A lot of that 5 hour process was making PCBs and then messing about with jumpers. All of which would disappear if you had a simple double-sided PCB ready to go. Actually stuffing a blank board isn't that slow, especially working in batches. But there are people who'd do that for you too, if you want.






From vladoman at gmail.com  Fri Jan 21 11:57:29 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 11:57:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <68a332f15e17446d8a0f2e1869871d76@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>
 <68a332f15e17446d8a0f2e1869871d76@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <691f580c-337d-e757-3cae-68dc67d1b727@gmail.com>

On 21.01.22 11:11, Mike Bryant wrote:

> Why don't you get them built by a low volume assembly house and get on with designing more modules ?   Or at least have the PCBs made elsewhere ?

they don't take layouts done in Excel ;)  SCNR


From markverbos at gmail.com  Fri Jan 21 12:38:05 2022
From: markverbos at gmail.com (mark verbos)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:38:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <01f5724ca837453a91d7d98449c39767@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <ACE6B182-3C1D-46F6-95A2-964C7119A2BF@gmail.com>
 <01f5724ca837453a91d7d98449c39767@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <0537D4F5-4C6F-48F3-8B34-3791A422272E@gmail.com>

ok, digital garbage.

The result of noise jittering the frequency control, FM,  quantization noise and maybe pretty poor design.

Mark





> On Jan 21, 2022, at 11:15 AM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> ?  A digital VCO can have a very clean sine wave, but when it is multiplied or FM?ed it aliases and shows its weaknesses. 
>  
> Would have to be a pretty poor design to create aliases.   Every r.f. transmitter and receiver in the world does it this way nowadays.  Are you sure you don?t mean sidebands, which are created no matter how the sinewave is created ?

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From list at mikebeauchamp.com  Fri Jan 21 19:22:05 2022
From: list at mikebeauchamp.com (Mike Beauchamp)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 13:22:05 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>

On 1/20/22 11:34 PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy wrote:
> First of all, printing, transferring and etching PCBs is a royal pain in the
> ass.  The worst part is that nobody makes a laserjet printer as good as the
> old beige cube HP2100.  The new ones just aren't as good, so the transfers

> Remember, you asked.


Just tossing this out there DGD,

KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project. 
There's tutorials that will go through creating schematics, custom 
symbols, board layout, routing and even custom footprints - everything 
needed to start.

Judging by the amount of components you mention here, it's of medium 
complexity. Board layout and routing could be a bit more involved, lets 
say 10-15 hours if it's your first time routing things. But you already 
have a layout that works for you to copy..

I know I'm not the first smart-arse that has tried to convince you that 
Excel isn't the best tool to use for PCB layout, but after reading your 
breakdown of time here... I'd learn the program just so I never have to 
drill fiberglass (tell me you have adequate dust collection in place? 
and cut jumpers again.

There are places that will place SMT components for cheap/free on the 
board and you could just leave the hand-soldering for your hand-matched 
and binned components. Grand total time could be under 2h - 3h savings 
per board, not to mention the fact that your troubleshooting will be 
greatly reduced. Learning Kicad pays for itself in as little as 3-4 units.

If you're still super interested in never learning it, you likely have 
some customers that are fluent in KiCad and would draw you up a board in 
exchange for a few free units.

Mike













From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 21 20:43:46 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:46 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
Message-ID: <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>


> KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project. 


Or if you really want to reduce the total time from concept to selling, you can learn EasyEDA in about the same, maybe less, and that automatically transfers both the Gerbers, Pick&Place and BOM up to JLCPCB and you get a fully loaded board back in 8 days, cutting out all the hassle of preparing BOM and Pick&Place for places like Seeed which always seem to want odd data formats and argue about specs on even basic parts like resistors.





From john at sleefamily.org  Fri Jan 21 22:17:47 2022
From: john at sleefamily.org (jslee)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 08:17:47 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
Message-ID: <9b39fa33-80a4-46e4-90ba-8254064abbf3@www.fastmail.com>

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, at 05:22, Mike Beauchamp wrote:
> KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project. 
> There's tutorials that will go through creating schematics, custom 
> symbols, board layout, routing and even custom footprints - everything 
> needed to start.

Not sure why you'd recommend software that took 20 years and six major
releases to get to "when I click on a component in schematic view it is
highlighted"

John


From jarander at gmail.com  Fri Jan 21 22:40:16 2022
From: jarander at gmail.com (Jared Anderson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 22:40:16 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAEDQ4iqKtP8uKM2E30MR6G8FtGL3pDG7rwOnNcaN7rO-dTJ7Mw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> get a fully loaded board back in 8 days
>

Wouldn't he have to lift himself by the seat of his pants straight off the
synth-*diy* list?

Cheers

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 20:47, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

>
> > KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project.
>
>
> Or if you really want to reduce the total time from concept to selling,
> you can learn EasyEDA in about the same, maybe less, and that automatically
> transfers both the Gerbers, Pick&Place and BOM up to JLCPCB and you get a
> fully loaded board back in 8 days, cutting out all the hassle of preparing
> BOM and Pick&Place for places like Seeed which always seem to want odd data
> formats and argue about specs on even basic parts like resistors.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From declareupdate at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 00:44:20 2022
From: declareupdate at gmail.com (Chris McDowell)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 17:44:20 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAEDQ4iqKtP8uKM2E30MR6G8FtGL3pDG7rwOnNcaN7rO-dTJ7Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEDQ4iqKtP8uKM2E30MR6G8FtGL3pDG7rwOnNcaN7rO-dTJ7Mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2F8A7C5C-B303-4B78-BE4D-43E426A958E9@gmail.com>

who said anything about pants?

I use JLC just about religiously. I have pretty much sworn off ever soldering a passive again. I'm super lazy though

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 21, 2022, at 3:43 PM, Jared Anderson via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>> get a fully loaded board back in 8 days
> 
> Wouldn't he have to lift himself by the seat of his pants straight off the synth-diy list?
> 
> Cheers 
> 
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 20:47, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project. 
>> 
>> 
>> Or if you really want to reduce the total time from concept to selling, you can learn EasyEDA in about the same, maybe less, and that automatically transfers both the Gerbers, Pick&Place and BOM up to JLCPCB and you get a fully loaded board back in 8 days, cutting out all the hassle of preparing BOM and Pick&Place for places like Seeed which always seem to want odd data formats and argue about specs on even basic parts like resistors.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Sat Jan 22 01:09:43 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:09:43 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <0537D4F5-4C6F-48F3-8B34-3791A422272E@gmail.com>
References: <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <ACE6B182-3C1D-46F6-95A2-964C7119A2BF@gmail.com>
 <01f5724ca837453a91d7d98449c39767@futurehorizons.com>
 <0537D4F5-4C6F-48F3-8B34-3791A422272E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220122000943.GA1535@gjcp.net>

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 12:38:05PM +0100, mark verbos via Synth-diy wrote:
> ok, digital garbage.
> 
> The result of noise jittering the frequency control, FM,  quantization noise and maybe pretty poor design.
> 

Analogue VCOs create just as much garbage for just the same reason when you FM them...

-- 
Gordonjcp



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jan 22 01:44:53 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:44:53 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <2F8A7C5C-B303-4B78-BE4D-43E426A958E9@gmail.com>
References: <CAEDQ4iqKtP8uKM2E30MR6G8FtGL3pDG7rwOnNcaN7rO-dTJ7Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2F8A7C5C-B303-4B78-BE4D-43E426A958E9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83001a483a3541059259a82a7cd680f3@futurehorizons.com>



From: Chris McDowell


?  I use JLC just about religiously. I have pretty much sworn off ever soldering a passive again. I'm super lazy though

But I bet you?re far more productive than you were before JLC started doing board stuffing.  I know I am.

Though I can?t wait for them to accept external components so I?m not limited to their selection of ICs.
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From declareupdate at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 02:38:10 2022
From: declareupdate at gmail.com (Chris McDowell)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:38:10 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
Message-ID: <FF5CCFD5-D2E9-4EA4-A2CA-2DF4055FF8F4@gmail.com>

heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful. 

Chris McDowell

> On Jan 21, 2022, at 6:45 PM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
>  
>  
> From: Chris McDowell 
> 
> ?  I use JLC just about religiously. I have pretty much sworn off ever soldering a passive again. I'm super lazy though
>  
> But I bet you?re far more productive than you were before JLC started doing board stuffing.  I know I am.   
>  
> Though I can?t wait for them to accept external components so I?m not limited to their selection of ICs.
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From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sat Jan 22 03:27:45 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 18:27:45 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <141B073F63304B80886CCE28E4284BDC@david78c70950b>

It's my relaxation.  I can do most of it from my easy chair while watching TV. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Roman Sowa [mailto:modular at go2.pl] 
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 1:51 AM
To: David G Dixon; 'synth-diy'
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

87 modules, 5 hours each and you're not bored to death?
What kind of pills do you take, or what do you smoke? I'll try to get that stuff too.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-20 o 20:27, David G Dixon via Synth-diy pisze:
> ?
> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and 
> everyone seems to be impressed with their performance.  Plus, the 
> price is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode 
> frequency shifters cost. (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, 
> and each one takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.) 
> Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the 
> Freak Shift is the analogue design to beat.
> 
> ------------




From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sat Jan 22 03:31:03 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 18:31:03 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <68a332f15e17446d8a0f2e1869871d76@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>
 <68a332f15e17446d8a0f2e1869871d76@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <62DF282CDE4A449AA453C410B9C9DB79@david78c70950b>

Because I don't do it to "be in business" -- I do it for "something to do."  I have two or three more module designs just about ready to go into production, and they will be similarly made by hand, one at a time, by me.

And I don't give a single f**k what anybody else thinks about that.  The world has gone stupid, and this is my personal form of protest.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Bryant [mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 2:11 AM
To: David G Dixon; 'synth-diy'
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: RE: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

> ?
> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and 
> everyone seems to be impressed with their performance.  Plus, the 
> price is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode 
> frequency shifters cost. (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, 
> and each one takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.) 
> Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the 
> Freak Shift is the analogue design to beat.
> 


Why don't you get them built by a low volume assembly house and get on with designing more modules ?   Or at least have the PCBs made elsewhere ?




From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sat Jan 22 03:32:41 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 18:32:41 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <41A5E8A3-520B-4B3F-90F8-425BED571147@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <6816a113-c0e8-d41c-f1a0-e2abad358581@go2.pl>
 <68a332f15e17446d8a0f2e1869871d76@futurehorizons.com>
 <41A5E8A3-520B-4B3F-90F8-425BED571147@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <6E8114870B6E4ACF960CC6B1109FC882@david78c70950b>

Again, this is just something to do, like playing video games or whatever.  Having the boards made professionally is quite beside the point.  I don't do this to make money and it doesn't have to be efficient. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Wiltshire [mailto:tom at electricdruid.net] 
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 2:40 AM
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: David G Dixon; synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]



> On 21 Jan 2022, at 10:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
>> ?
>> There are now 87 Freak Shifts out in the wild all over the world, and 
>> everyone seems to be impressed with their performance.  Plus, the 
>> price is a measly US $300, which is a fraction of what other Bode 
>> frequency shifters cost. (Bear in mind that I build each one by hand, 
>> and each one takes me about 5 hours, so they are not mass produced.) 
>> Hence, not to put too fine a point on it, but I would say that the 
>> Freak Shift is the analogue design to beat.
>> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you get them built by a low volume assembly house and get on with designing more modules ?   Or at least have the PCBs made elsewhere?


My thought too. A lot of that 5 hour process was making PCBs and then messing about with jumpers. All of which would disappear if you had a simple double-sided PCB ready to go. Actually stuffing a blank board isn't that slow, especially working in batches. But there are people who'd do that for you too, if you want.







From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sat Jan 22 03:44:40 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 18:44:40 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
Message-ID: <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>

This all assumes that I am dissatisfied with my current plan.  I like making
my own boards, and having the layout in Kicad isn't going to make the
transferring any better.  Plus, I hate soldering professionally made boards
with solder mask etc.

As far as "never having to drill fibreglass or cut jumpers ever again,"
well, it's all just a part of DIY.  I like DIY, all of it, even the crappy
bits.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Beauchamp
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 10:22 AM
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

On 1/20/22 11:34 PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy wrote:
> First of all, printing, transferring and etching PCBs is a royal pain 
> in the ass.  The worst part is that nobody makes a laserjet printer as 
> good as the old beige cube HP2100.  The new ones just aren't as good, 
> so the transfers

> Remember, you asked.


Just tossing this out there DGD,

KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project. 
There's tutorials that will go through creating schematics, custom symbols,
board layout, routing and even custom footprints - everything needed to
start.

Judging by the amount of components you mention here, it's of medium
complexity. Board layout and routing could be a bit more involved, lets say
10-15 hours if it's your first time routing things. But you already have a
layout that works for you to copy..

I know I'm not the first smart-arse that has tried to convince you that
Excel isn't the best tool to use for PCB layout, but after reading your
breakdown of time here... I'd learn the program just so I never have to
drill fiberglass (tell me you have adequate dust collection in place? 
and cut jumpers again.

There are places that will place SMT components for cheap/free on the board
and you could just leave the hand-soldering for your hand-matched and binned
components. Grand total time could be under 2h - 3h savings per board, not
to mention the fact that your troubleshooting will be greatly reduced.
Learning Kicad pays for itself in as little as 3-4 units.

If you're still super interested in never learning it, you likely have some
customers that are fluent in KiCad and would draw you up a board in exchange
for a few free units.

Mike











_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
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From list at mikebeauchamp.com  Sat Jan 22 04:13:46 2022
From: list at mikebeauchamp.com (Mike Beauchamp)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 22:13:46 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>

On 1/21/22 9:44 PM, David G Dixon wrote:
> This all assumes that I am dissatisfied with my current plan.  I like making
> my own boards, and having the layout in Kicad isn't going to make the
> transferring any better.  Plus, I hate soldering professionally made boards
> with solder mask etc.
> 
> As far as "never having to drill fibreglass or cut jumpers ever again,"
> well, it's all just a part of DIY.  I like DIY, all of it, even the crappy
> bits.

Totally fair DGD, it reminds me of when I built a darkroom a few years 
ago to process, develop and print film photographs.. And of course that 
wasn't hard enough, so I had to shoot with a meterless medium format TLR 
camera.

I think the comments are just trying to be helpful after seeing your 
time break-down, maybe saving you from steps that that we 
self-identified as not fun. But that's just me projecting my distaste 
for drilling fibreglass and hand-assembly.

I've soldered and assembled over 100 synths completely by hand, each 
with about 400 passives.. so I get the passion for DIY. I'm also just 
saying that I'm grateful for the time I can spend doing other things 
while robots ensure that every resistor is soldered in it's proper place :)

At the end of the day, you're making some cool shit.. and your customers 
have something to be really proud of, knowing the work that went into 
everything.

Mike


From john at sleefamily.org  Sat Jan 22 06:21:35 2022
From: john at sleefamily.org (jslee)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 16:21:35 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <FF5CCFD5-D2E9-4EA4-A2CA-2DF4055FF8F4@gmail.com>
References: <FF5CCFD5-D2E9-4EA4-A2CA-2DF4055FF8F4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7e25d40f-3582-4313-a06e-f1310c7e963e@beta.fastmail.com>

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, at 12:38, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy wrote:
> heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful. 

This is encouraging. I?ve never tried PCBA but it has been calling to me of late? I?m not great at hand-soldering 0805 SMD and pretty tired of bending and snipping resistor legs, and I also don?t have a huge amount of time to devote to it

It?s good to hear good things about JLC here. Cheers

John
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 06:46:53 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 06:46:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9pqUEGS=90Pb8eiF5OJ5MbXZmnvj4kEir+0dc_7EBVgw@mail.gmail.com>

at first i was gonna say something about ordering PCBs but given
there's a business professionally manufacturing your stuff and you
specifically mentioned you're not looking to mass manufacture these
boards it became obvious you're doing all this on purpose

better way to spend time than many other that's for sure

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 3:48 AM David G Dixon via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> This all assumes that I am dissatisfied with my current plan.  I like making
> my own boards, and having the layout in Kicad isn't going to make the
> transferring any better.  Plus, I hate soldering professionally made boards
> with solder mask etc.
>
> As far as "never having to drill fibreglass or cut jumpers ever again,"
> well, it's all just a part of DIY.  I like DIY, all of it, even the crappy
> bits.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Beauchamp
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 10:22 AM
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
>
> On 1/20/22 11:34 PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy wrote:
> > First of all, printing, transferring and etching PCBs is a royal pain
> > in the ass.  The worst part is that nobody makes a laserjet printer as
> > good as the old beige cube HP2100.  The new ones just aren't as good,
> > so the transfers
>
> > Remember, you asked.
>
>
> Just tossing this out there DGD,
>
> KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project.
> There's tutorials that will go through creating schematics, custom symbols,
> board layout, routing and even custom footprints - everything needed to
> start.
>
> Judging by the amount of components you mention here, it's of medium
> complexity. Board layout and routing could be a bit more involved, lets say
> 10-15 hours if it's your first time routing things. But you already have a
> layout that works for you to copy..
>
> I know I'm not the first smart-arse that has tried to convince you that
> Excel isn't the best tool to use for PCB layout, but after reading your
> breakdown of time here... I'd learn the program just so I never have to
> drill fiberglass (tell me you have adequate dust collection in place?
> and cut jumpers again.
>
> There are places that will place SMT components for cheap/free on the board
> and you could just leave the hand-soldering for your hand-matched and binned
> components. Grand total time could be under 2h - 3h savings per board, not
> to mention the fact that your troubleshooting will be greatly reduced.
> Learning Kicad pays for itself in as little as 3-4 units.
>
> If you're still super interested in never learning it, you likely have some
> customers that are fluent in KiCad and would draw you up a board in exchange
> for a few free units.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 08:11:07 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 08:11:07 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] [OT] CRT + Vidicon = analog convolution?
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9LNNeRoWxqjOVFB6EUr9peSG-R2MKJCZp99ACcgUF_Aw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
I have recently stumbled upon the idea of using vidicons and CRTs for
analog convolution. Convolution of a continuous incoming signal (say
audio) with a FIR (finite impulse response) is one way of creating
echo, simulating filters, etc. By far the only method of calculating
convolution nowadays is the DFT (discrete Fourier transform), a form
of the FFT (fast Fourier transform).

I was wondering if anyone used vidicons and can confirm if this scheme
would work.

The first time I heard of vidicons being used together with CRTs was
when I read up on old TV stations and how they converted from 50 to 60
Hz or between line amounts. They essentially filmed a TV, but the
device eventually was an integrated CRT-Vidicon invention where the
CRT and Vidicon both scanned horizontally. However, if you make them
scan at 90 degrees of each other, you can use that for computation.

One way of calculating convolution is as follows. Let's assume for a
second that the signal and the FIR take values from -1 to 1. For every
sample of the signal you have coming in, call that sample s_t, you
start outputting s_t * FIR - you output all samples of the FIR
subsequently, scaled by s_t. So on this sample, you output s_t *
FIR_1, where FIR_1 is the first sample of the FIR. On the next sample,
say s_t+1, you start outputting s_t+1 * FIR, while also continuing to
play back s_t * FIR. So on the second sample you output s_t+1 * FIR_1,
but also s_t * FIR_2.

Let's say you take a CRT and break it up into, say, a grid of 100 x
100 points. Scan them horizontally from top left to bottom right.
Start out in the top left. Wait for a sample of the signal, say s_1,
to come in. Horizontally, you start outputting - using the Z channel
(brightness) - the samples s_1*FIR_1, s_1*FIR_2, etc.

Wait for the next sample to come in, and meanwhile move to the 2nd
line, and start on the second point. When sample s_2 comes in, start
outputting s_2*FIR_1, s_2*FIR_2, until you hit the end of the line,
which is s_2*FIR_99. Then wrap around to the start of the line 2
(without advancing to line 3), and output s_2*FIR_100.

So on the nth scan line, you start outputting at the nth "pixel". On
the 100th scan line, you start at the 100th pixel. Then you wrap
around to the first line and start on the 1st pixel.

Next for the Vidicon. Orient it towards the CRT, but at an angle of 90
degrees. So it should be scanning vertically, top to bottom, left to
right, starting from the top left, and ending on the bottom right. It
has scan columns rather than scan rows.

For every sample you have coming in, as you are outputting the
relevant row to the CRT, scan a single column. You can start before
the row is done outputting, because all previous rows are done, and as
for the latest row, you only care about the home pixel (the pixel that
is first put on the screen, ie for the nth line it's the nth pixel).
While scanning this, sum up the brightness over your whole scan, and
that's your output. That just calculated a convolution between the FIR
and the incoming signal. It's a 100-point convolution. Cool, right?

Here's an even cooler thing. Nothing says you have to make the FIR
have as many points as there are rows. You can make the FIR a
continuous signal. Then, you can scan that 100-row image using more
than 100 columns. Say, scan it at 400 columns. This then just means
that the FIR has a bandwidth 4x higher than the signal it's being
applied to.

And finally, of course you can output different FIR for every incoming
sample (for every incoming row). This would let you eg apply, via
convolution, a parametric filter.

Regarding practical implementation of the CRT output. For simplicity,
I described above a situation where you're outputting horizontal lines
of variable brightness in a raster. However, to preserve the phosphor,
when increasing the Z (brightness) of the trace, you would also add a
little bit of a high-frequency signal, to make the line thicker. The
vidicon and the subsequent averaging circuit will like it just as
well, and probably even better. This way you can prevent incoming hot
spots. Also it doesn't matter if the lines intersect - they might just
as well all be at the same level. However, then the phosphor might get
more hot spots, and the non-linearity of the phosphor brightness vs
cathode current might come into play. The raster was just to
illustrate the structure of the algorithm, but if you need some form
of accuracy, then you might want to keep lines from intersecting, but
at that point, why are you even doing this using a Vidicon?


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jan 22 11:16:25 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 10:16:25 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <7e25d40f-3582-4313-a06e-f1310c7e963e@beta.fastmail.com>
References: <FF5CCFD5-D2E9-4EA4-A2CA-2DF4055FF8F4@gmail.com>
 <7e25d40f-3582-4313-a06e-f1310c7e963e@beta.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <204b086991114522abca3171d316761c@futurehorizons.com>

John

Go for it.   I?ve spent the past 20 years designing prototypes for both large audio companies and SMEs then passing the hard stuff of manufacture over to them.   But with JLCPCB doing assembly at such low costs and high quality, and a couple of places doing metalwork at sensible prices, I?m now preparing two products to launch as my own once chipageddon comes to an end.

Also for the more esoteric parts, note that if you ask JLCPCB to create a stock number for a part, you can then buy a whole reel of that component already and they store it just for your use free of charge.   It?s quite an investment but I?ve done it with one essential part ? only wish I?d been able to do it earlier with an STM32 processor that is now totally unobtainable.  Maybe people could get together an share the cost of a reel of 2164s ?

Mike

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of jslee via Synth-diy
Sent: 22 January 2022 05:22
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, at 12:38, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy wrote:
heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful.

This is encouraging. I?ve never tried PCBA but it has been calling to me of late? I?m not great at hand-soldering 0805 SMD and pretty tired of bending and snipping resistor legs, and I also don?t have a huge amount of time to devote to it

It?s good to hear good things about JLC here. Cheers

John

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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jan 22 11:18:41 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 10:18:41 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <B42BA684CE704B08A07888DE0B382207@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAEDQ4iqKtP8uKM2E30MR6G8FtGL3pDG7rwO	nNcaN7rO-dTJ7Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B42BA684CE704B08A07888DE0B382207@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <891303f2d232453a9ec6cea3e92a4706@futurehorizons.com>

Fair enough.  I can't even imagine how to design a PCB in Excel though.

From: David G Dixon [mailto:dixon at mail.ubc.ca]
Sent: 22 January 2022 03:05
To: 'Jared Anderson'; Mike Bryant
Subject: RE: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

Exactly.  So you know how long it now takes me to get a board?  About an hour.  Two hours later, it's stuffed and ready to use.

Also, if you have never laid out a circuit in Excel, don't knock it.  It has many subtle advantages.

________________________________
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jared Anderson via Synth-diy
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 1:40 PM
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

get a fully loaded board back in 8 days

Wouldn't he have to lift himself by the seat of his pants straight off the synth-diy list?

Cheers

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 20:47, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:

> KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project.


Or if you really want to reduce the total time from concept to selling, you can learn EasyEDA in about the same, maybe less, and that automatically transfers both the Gerbers, Pick&Place and BOM up to JLCPCB and you get a fully loaded board back in 8 days, cutting out all the hassle of preparing BOM and Pick&Place for places like Seeed which always seem to want odd data formats and argue about specs on even basic parts like resistors.



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 11:43:31 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 11:43:31 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <891303f2d232453a9ec6cea3e92a4706@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>
 <B42BA684CE704B08A07888DE0B382207@david78c70950b>
 <891303f2d232453a9ec6cea3e92a4706@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_b+j+50pgXPoTWKCxgudY5sJmu=vx2hr-t-wRZFvgkFQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think what David is doing is he's using Excel to figure out part
substitutions for the passives. He's not doing it for trace routing, that's
probably by hand.

Excel is definitely not just the right tool for this but the first tool you
should be going for (except you should be using Libre Calc which has
advantages over Excel ... that I can't remember off the top of my head)

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 11:21 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> Fair enough.  I can?t even imagine how to design a PCB in Excel though.
>
>
>
> *From:* David G Dixon [mailto:dixon at mail.ubc.ca]
> *Sent:* 22 January 2022 03:05
> *To:* 'Jared Anderson'; Mike Bryant
> *Subject:* RE: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
>
>
> Exactly.  So you know how long it now takes me to get a board?  About an
> hour.  Two hours later, it's stuffed and ready to use.
>
>
>
> Also, if you have never laid out a circuit in Excel, don't knock it.  It
> has many subtle advantages.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *Jared
> Anderson via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* Friday, January 21, 2022 1:40 PM
> *To:* Mike Bryant
> *Cc:* synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
>
> [*CAUTION:* Non-UBC Email]
>
> get a fully loaded board back in 8 days
>
>
>
> Wouldn't he have to lift himself by the seat of his pants straight off the
> synth-*diy* list?
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 20:47, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> > KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project.
>
>
> Or if you really want to reduce the total time from concept to selling,
> you can learn EasyEDA in about the same, maybe less, and that automatically
> transfers both the Gerbers, Pick&Place and BOM up to JLCPCB and you get a
> fully loaded board back in 8 days, cutting out all the hassle of preparing
> BOM and Pick&Place for places like Seeed which always seem to want odd data
> formats and argue about specs on even basic parts like resistors.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From igg.debus at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 11:54:21 2022
From: igg.debus at gmail.com (Ingo Debus)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 11:54:21 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
Message-ID: <67517286-37E0-4414-9EA4-5B9BB95D106C@gmail.com>



> Am 21.01.2022 um 19:22 schrieb Mike Beauchamp <list at mikebeauchamp.com>:
> 
> KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project

I don?t know KiCad, but this seems a bit optimistic to me. With all the PCB design packages I?ve used so far, it took me longer to ?learn? them. Or is there something in KiCad that Altium Designer, Eagle and others don?t have?

Or are you a software guy? I know software guys often tend to underestimate the time required to do something ?.

Ingo
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From guy.mccusker at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 11:56:07 2022
From: guy.mccusker at gmail.com (Guy McCusker)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 10:56:07 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-_b+j+50pgXPoTWKCxgudY5sJmu=vx2hr-t-wRZFvgkFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>
 <B42BA684CE704B08A07888DE0B382207@david78c70950b>
 <891303f2d232453a9ec6cea3e92a4706@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_b+j+50pgXPoTWKCxgudY5sJmu=vx2hr-t-wRZFvgkFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPx-PW7ACPO7Kq=dA=aixLMEoS1t87oJeJOJN8Lje9HjNZc5SA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:48 AM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> I think what David is doing is he's using Excel to figure out part
> substitutions for the passives. He's not doing it for trace routing, that's
> probably by hand.
>

Oh boy are you in for a surprise!

David's method is quite amazing.
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From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Sat Jan 22 12:09:54 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 11:09:54 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] [OT] CRT + Vidicon = analog convolution?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9LNNeRoWxqjOVFB6EUr9peSG-R2MKJCZp99ACcgUF_Aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-9LNNeRoWxqjOVFB6EUr9peSG-R2MKJCZp99ACcgUF_Aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220122110954.GC1535@gjcp.net>

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 08:11:07AM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> 
> The first time I heard of vidicons being used together with CRTs was
> when I read up on old TV stations and how they converted from 50 to 60
> Hz or between line amounts. They essentially filmed a TV, but the
> device eventually was an integrated CRT-Vidicon invention where the
> CRT and Vidicon both scanned horizontally. However, if you make them
> scan at 90 degrees of each other, you can use that for computation.

Go and look up what a "Scanimate" was, it'll blow your mind.  I think only one still exists in an operable condition.

All those visual effects you saw on 80s TV title sequences were done by applying modular analogue synthesis techniques not to the video signal itself (mostly) but to the scan voltages for a high-def CRT (800 lines or so!) with a TV camera aimed at it.  To make those wobbly side-to-side titles, they'd point the Scanimate camera at a title card (literally, a bit of white card with the titles drawn on) and apply a sine wave to offset the X scan voltage of the monitor, and so on.

Genius stuff, and nearly all gone now.  I'm amazed none of the video synthesis guys haven't built a reproduction given how cheap CCTV monitors and modular synths are.

-- 
Gordonjcp



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jan 22 12:23:19 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 11:23:19 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] [OT] CRT + Vidicon = analog convolution?
In-Reply-To: <20220122110954.GC1535@gjcp.net>
References: <CAGn5V-9LNNeRoWxqjOVFB6EUr9peSG-R2MKJCZp99ACcgUF_Aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220122110954.GC1535@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <3270c93cf73f4de0b546bfb2711b3e79@futurehorizons.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wxc3mKqKTk

This was state of the art until Quantel released the Harry digital system.  Knew a couple of guys who worked on that - some of the digital timings were pretty marginal.   We hardly think about gate timings nowadays as logic is so fast.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
Sent: 22 January 2022 11:10
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] [OT] CRT + Vidicon = analog convolution?

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 08:11:07AM +0100, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> 
> The first time I heard of vidicons being used together with CRTs was 
> when I read up on old TV stations and how they converted from 50 to 60 
> Hz or between line amounts. They essentially filmed a TV, but the 
> device eventually was an integrated CRT-Vidicon invention where the 
> CRT and Vidicon both scanned horizontally. However, if you make them 
> scan at 90 degrees of each other, you can use that for computation.

Go and look up what a "Scanimate" was, it'll blow your mind.  I think only one still exists in an operable condition.

All those visual effects you saw on 80s TV title sequences were done by applying modular analogue synthesis techniques not to the video signal itself (mostly) but to the scan voltages for a high-def CRT (800 lines or so!) with a TV camera aimed at it.  To make those wobbly side-to-side titles, they'd point the Scanimate camera at a title card (literally, a bit of white card with the titles drawn on) and apply a sine wave to offset the X scan voltage of the monitor, and so on.

Genius stuff, and nearly all gone now.  I'm amazed none of the video synthesis guys haven't built a reproduction given how cheap CCTV monitors and modular synths are.

--
Gordonjcp

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 18:49:31 2022
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 11:49:31 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAPx-PW7ACPO7Kq=dA=aixLMEoS1t87oJeJOJN8Lje9HjNZc5SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>
 <B42BA684CE704B08A07888DE0B382207@david78c70950b>
 <891303f2d232453a9ec6cea3e92a4706@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_b+j+50pgXPoTWKCxgudY5sJmu=vx2hr-t-wRZFvgkFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW7ACPO7Kq=dA=aixLMEoS1t87oJeJOJN8Lje9HjNZc5SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACodTR-VP=SDXxBun29BRAJY04E5w+TbKE40LYUwDdNoLRjJjw@mail.gmail.com>

Indeed.  It's in the archives in a fair amount off detail.

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 4:58 AM Guy McCusker via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:48 AM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>> I think what David is doing is he's using Excel to figure out part
>> substitutions for the passives. He's not doing it for trace routing, that's
>> probably by hand.
>>
>
> Oh boy are you in for a surprise!
>
> David's method is quite amazing.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From declareupdate at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 19:00:47 2022
From: declareupdate at gmail.com (Chris McDowell)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:00:47 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <204b086991114522abca3171d316761c@futurehorizons.com>
References: <204b086991114522abca3171d316761c@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <D105DE95-3449-4DC5-8B3F-648E09897103@gmail.com>

Wow Mike, I didn't realize that reel purchase situation applied to chips that weren't already available at LCSC. If they would keep a reel of alfa parts for me, that could potentially change my strategy quite a bit. I'll have to look into this! 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 22, 2022, at 4:20 AM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> John
>  
> Go for it.   I?ve spent the past 20 years designing prototypes for both large audio companies and SMEs then passing the hard stuff of manufacture over to them.   But with JLCPCB doing assembly at such low costs and high quality, and a couple of places doing metalwork at sensible prices, I?m now preparing two products to launch as my own once chipageddon comes to an end.
>  
> Also for the more esoteric parts, note that if you ask JLCPCB to create a stock number for a part, you can then buy a whole reel of that component already and they store it just for your use free of charge.   It?s quite an investment but I?ve done it with one essential part ? only wish I?d been able to do it earlier with an STM32 processor that is now totally unobtainable.  Maybe people could get together an share the cost of a reel of 2164s ?
>  
> Mike
>  
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of jslee via Synth-diy
> Sent: 22 January 2022 05:22
> To: SDIY
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
>  
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, at 12:38, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy wrote:
> heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful. 
>  
> This is encouraging. I?ve never tried PCBA but it has been calling to me of late? I?m not great at hand-soldering 0805 SMD and pretty tired of bending and snipping resistor legs, and I also don?t have a huge amount of time to devote to it
>  
> It?s good to hear good things about JLC here. Cheers
>  
> John
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jan 22 19:04:03 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 18:04:03 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <D105DE95-3449-4DC5-8B3F-648E09897103@gmail.com>
References: <204b086991114522abca3171d316761c@futurehorizons.com>
 <D105DE95-3449-4DC5-8B3F-648E09897103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e4e288424ffd4fd3bf1e4018a9980f8f@futurehorizons.com>

Log into JLCPCB, go to my account and look for My Parts List.  On there ask to set up the part.  They usually do in about 3 days.  Then ask them to quote for it.  That can takes ages as they won?t have an account with SSI, but they should come through eventually.

From: Chris McDowell [mailto:declareupdate at gmail.com]
Sent: 22 January 2022 18:01
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: jslee; Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier

Wow Mike, I didn't realize that reel purchase situation applied to chips that weren't already available at LCSC. If they would keep a reel of alfa parts for me, that could potentially change my strategy quite a bit. I'll have to look into this!

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 22, 2022, at 4:20 AM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
?
John

Go for it.   I?ve spent the past 20 years designing prototypes for both large audio companies and SMEs then passing the hard stuff of manufacture over to them.   But with JLCPCB doing assembly at such low costs and high quality, and a couple of places doing metalwork at sensible prices, I?m now preparing two products to launch as my own once chipageddon comes to an end.

Also for the more esoteric parts, note that if you ask JLCPCB to create a stock number for a part, you can then buy a whole reel of that component already and they store it just for your use free of charge.   It?s quite an investment but I?ve done it with one essential part ? only wish I?d been able to do it earlier with an STM32 processor that is now totally unobtainable.  Maybe people could get together an share the cost of a reel of 2164s ?

Mike

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of jslee via Synth-diy
Sent: 22 January 2022 05:22
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, at 12:38, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy wrote:
heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful.

This is encouraging. I?ve never tried PCBA but it has been calling to me of late? I?m not great at hand-soldering 0805 SMD and pretty tired of bending and snipping resistor legs, and I also don?t have a huge amount of time to devote to it

It?s good to hear good things about JLC here. Cheers

John

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 19:14:06 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 18:14:06 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <e4e288424ffd4fd3bf1e4018a9980f8f@futurehorizons.com>
References: <204b086991114522abca3171d316761c@futurehorizons.com>
 <D105DE95-3449-4DC5-8B3F-648E09897103@gmail.com>
 <e4e288424ffd4fd3bf1e4018a9980f8f@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxLOokUzmkccrq+sZ2YkNbrq9Tjzb-EOJ+4-QukC0iq-jA@mail.gmail.com>

Just point JLCPCB at
sales at soundsemiconductor.com

Neil

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 at 18:06, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Log into JLCPCB, go to my account and look for My Parts List.  On there ask to set up the part.  They usually do in about 3 days.  Then ask them to quote for it.  That can takes ages as they won?t have an account with SSI, but they should come through eventually.
>
>
>
> From: Chris McDowell [mailto:declareupdate at gmail.com]
> Sent: 22 January 2022 18:01
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: jslee; Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
>
>
>
> Wow Mike, I didn't realize that reel purchase situation applied to chips that weren't already available at LCSC. If they would keep a reel of alfa parts for me, that could potentially change my strategy quite a bit. I'll have to look into this!
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jan 22, 2022, at 4:20 AM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> John
>
>
>
> Go for it.   I?ve spent the past 20 years designing prototypes for both large audio companies and SMEs then passing the hard stuff of manufacture over to them.   But with JLCPCB doing assembly at such low costs and high quality, and a couple of places doing metalwork at sensible prices, I?m now preparing two products to launch as my own once chipageddon comes to an end.
>
>
>
> Also for the more esoteric parts, note that if you ask JLCPCB to create a stock number for a part, you can then buy a whole reel of that component already and they store it just for your use free of charge.   It?s quite an investment but I?ve done it with one essential part ? only wish I?d been able to do it earlier with an STM32 processor that is now totally unobtainable.  Maybe people could get together an share the cost of a reel of 2164s ?
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of jslee via Synth-diy
> Sent: 22 January 2022 05:22
> To: SDIY
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
>
>
>
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, at 12:38, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy wrote:
>
> heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful.
>
>
>
> This is encouraging. I?ve never tried PCBA but it has been calling to me of late? I?m not great at hand-soldering 0805 SMD and pretty tired of bending and snipping resistor legs, and I also don?t have a huge amount of time to devote to it
>
>
>
> It?s good to hear good things about JLC here. Cheers
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From btremblay at me.com  Sat Jan 22 19:29:01 2022
From: btremblay at me.com (Benjamin Tremblay)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:29:01 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Deep thoughts on Old drum machines: the "VCA"
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBWVU2t241hP6yeYsK5AfoQG9ox1Ez1AKv8nqcB-touh6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9084E465-3869-4BB5-9B1A-F7454100CB0A@me.com>
 <BEBEFBAE-1296-42FD-B247-A64BF5AD2D70@audiobanshee.com>
 <CAP92RBWVU2t241hP6yeYsK5AfoQG9ox1Ez1AKv8nqcB-touh6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CBEE66A1-0A65-4889-B65F-D4F82EA0D674@me.com>

I just remember some summer in the early 1980s building a number of PAiA circuits, hoping it would open the doors to being able to make some good sounds. 
I built the surf synthesizer and it was really wonderful. I ran it for days in the garage. 
I tried the wind chimes synthesizer, and it sounded like someone shaking a giant glass jug fill of bamboo sticks.
Then I tried some of the modular circuits. 
The 1-transistor bandpass filter, which was pretty much the same circuit used in the surf and chime circuits. 
When I finally got to the ?lowpass filter? circuit from the 2700 series, it was a dud. It was a filter in name only. 

The next summer, I hit the university library and found the Moog 904 patent diagram. After building that, I was no afraid to build the Moog VCA. 
But making a stable, reliable VCO was for the big guys. To this day I have never made a decent VCO, but the older I get the more pointless it seems.

> On Nov 26, 2021, at 2:16 PM, Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org> wrote:
> 
> Brian Willoughby <brianw at audiobanshee.com <mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com>> skrev:
> One interesting side-effect of the swing VCA is that it creates a DC offset in the signal that a real VCA mostly avoids. This potential problem is removed by capacitively coupling the different audio stages together, so that any DC offset is removed. However, even an AC-coupled system can pop when the DC offset changes abruptly. For percussion sounds, though, this abrupt pop might actually be an improvement to the sound.
> 
> Probably also for synth sounds. Among all potential cases of people saying that "the old synth sounds better than the new version/clone/emulation/whatever", offset thumps might be one of the unknown secrets that reverse engineers often miss.
> 
> /mr
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From declareupdate at gmail.com  Sat Jan 22 19:53:23 2022
From: declareupdate at gmail.com (Chris McDowell)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:53:23 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxLOokUzmkccrq+sZ2YkNbrq9Tjzb-EOJ+4-QukC0iq-jA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <204b086991114522abca3171d316761c@futurehorizons.com>
 <D105DE95-3449-4DC5-8B3F-648E09897103@gmail.com>
 <e4e288424ffd4fd3bf1e4018a9980f8f@futurehorizons.com>
 <CACZGMxLOokUzmkccrq+sZ2YkNbrq9Tjzb-EOJ+4-QukC0iq-jA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <447F02BC-1D94-47B8-A8F0-355BD46E5E8C@gmail.com>

Awesome Neil, I absolutely will. Thanks

> On Jan 22, 2022, at 12:14 PM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Just point JLCPCB at
> sales at soundsemiconductor.com
> 
> Neil
> 
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 at 18:06, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Log into JLCPCB, go to my account and look for My Parts List.  On there ask to set up the part.  They usually do in about 3 days.  Then ask them to quote for it.  That can takes ages as they won?t have an account with SSI, but they should come through eventually.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Chris McDowell [mailto:declareupdate at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 22 January 2022 18:01
>> To: Mike Bryant
>> Cc: jslee; Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Wow Mike, I didn't realize that reel purchase situation applied to chips that weren't already available at LCSC. If they would keep a reel of alfa parts for me, that could potentially change my strategy quite a bit. I'll have to look into this!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 22, 2022, at 4:20 AM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Go for it.   I?ve spent the past 20 years designing prototypes for both large audio companies and SMEs then passing the hard stuff of manufacture over to them.   But with JLCPCB doing assembly at such low costs and high quality, and a couple of places doing metalwork at sensible prices, I?m now preparing two products to launch as my own once chipageddon comes to an end.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Also for the more esoteric parts, note that if you ask JLCPCB to create a stock number for a part, you can then buy a whole reel of that component already and they store it just for your use free of charge.   It?s quite an investment but I?ve done it with one essential part ? only wish I?d been able to do it earlier with an STM32 processor that is now totally unobtainable.  Maybe people could get together an share the cost of a reel of 2164s ?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of jslee via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 22 January 2022 05:22
>> To: SDIY
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, at 12:38, Chris McDowell via Synth-diy wrote:
>> 
>> heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> This is encouraging. I?ve never tried PCBA but it has been calling to me of late? I?m not great at hand-soldering 0805 SMD and pretty tired of bending and snipping resistor legs, and I also don?t have a huge amount of time to devote to it
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It?s good to hear good things about JLC here. Cheers
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Sat Jan 22 21:25:04 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:25:04 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <CAPx-PW7ACPO7Kq=dA=aixLMEoS1t87oJeJOJN8Lje9HjNZc5SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>
 <B42BA684CE704B08A07888DE0B382207@dav	id78c70950b>
 <891303f2d232453a9ec6cea3e92a4706@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_b+j+50pgXPoTWKCxgudY5sJmu=vx2hr-t-wRZFvgkFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW7ACPO7Kq=dA=aixLMEoS1t87oJeJOJN8Lje9HjNZc5SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F4C742C6844E4162BE21249BD5A99A60@david78c70950b>

Here are three outputs of my Excel layout exercise.  This is the 18-stage
Dome filter in the Freak Shift.  The PCB is nominally 2.1" wide (although I
cut them 2" wide to get four out of an 8" blank and it is just fine) and
4.3" long (the maximum for eurorack).  Note that, since several boards stack
up, the empty spots under the rectangles on the left and right edges (which
represent pin headers) are for "pass-through" pins.  This particular PCB is
in the middle of the stack.
 
These images are the Layout (where I actually do the routing, by hand, of
all the traces -- it is much faster to do than you'd think), the Transfer
(which is what is printed on PnP Blue), and the Guide (which is what I look
at when stuffing, although now I build these completely from memory).  This
board is almost unique in my output, because it only requires one jumper
wire (the dark blue line on the right hand edge).  Incidentally, this Dome
filter works perfectly with both +12/-12V and +15/-15V supplies.
 

 

 


  _____  

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Guy
McCusker via Synth-diy
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022 2:56 AM
To: cheater cheater
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164


[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]	
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:48 AM cheater cheater via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:


I think what David is doing is he's using Excel to figure out part
substitutions for the passives. He's not doing it for trace routing, that's
probably by hand.


Oh boy are you in for a surprise!

David's method is quite amazing. 

 
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From synthdiy at adambaby.com  Sat Jan 22 22:51:22 2022
From: synthdiy at adambaby.com (Adam Inglis (synthDIY))
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 07:51:22 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Deep thoughts on Old drum machines: the "VCA"
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBWVU2t241hP6yeYsK5AfoQG9ox1Ez1AKv8nqcB-touh6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9084E465-3869-4BB5-9B1A-F7454100CB0A@me.com>
 <BEBEFBAE-1296-42FD-B247-A64BF5AD2D70@audiobanshee.com>
 <CAP92RBWVU2t241hP6yeYsK5AfoQG9ox1Ez1AKv8nqcB-touh6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48B5EBE0-F5F1-44B9-B5F6-60F802203E13@adambaby.com>



> On 27 Nov 2021, at 05:16, Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org> wrote:
> 
> Probably also for synth sounds. Among all potential cases of people saying that "the old synth sounds better than the new version/clone/emulation/whatever", offset thumps might be one of the unknown secrets that reverse engineers often miss.


I?ve wondered something similar.
When I?m editing recordings at the waveform level in Cubase, I?ve noticed that my most, er? ?characterful' synths have the most waveform distortion about the zero axis (sorry, can?t think of the technical term!) i.e. the waveform will be skewed more above or below the line (Korg 700, TB-303, SH-2000) whereas more polite sounding synths are perfectly symmetrical about this axis. I?m assuming there is some kind of DC offset going on there, but that may not be the correct explanation

A
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sun Jan 23 03:30:45 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 18:30:45 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <FF5CCFD5-D2E9-4EA4-A2CA-2DF4055FF8F4@gmail.com>
References: <FF5CCFD5-D2E9-4EA4-A2CA-2DF4055FF8F4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D60C701-6206-4D59-A999-BF5B29FAA9AA@audiobanshee.com>

There's no need to limit yourself to JLC. There are tons of PCB Assembly houses around the world. Depending upon where you live, one might even be nearby. I used to live in Bellevue, WA, and there is a PCB Assembly shop just a 10-minute walk from my home there. They got to know me on a first-name basis, and would have rework done over lunch.

When it came to full assembly, I would simply provide the PCB from the fab and the parts from Mouser, DigiKey, Jameco, etc. Of course, I made mistakes from time to time, but they would always let me know when my counts were off. I learned that they prefer to have at least 10 spare parts on the tapes because they need some room to feed the pick-and-place. The local guys basically trained me on how to provide them what was needed. As you folks are saying, even a slight amount of time learning how to enable automation pays off many times in efficiency. Also, the boards look absolutely perfect (compared to any of my hand-soldering).

Brian


On Jan 21, 2022, at 17:38, Chris McDowell wrote:
> heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful. 
> 
> Chris McDowell
> 
> On Jan 21, 2022, at 6:45 PM, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> From: Chris McDowell 
>> 
>> ?  I use JLC just about religiously. I have pretty much sworn off ever soldering a passive again. I'm super lazy though
>>  
>> But I bet you?re far more productive than you were before JLC started doing board stuffing.  I know I am.   
>>  
>> Though I can?t wait for them to accept external components so I?m not limited to their selection of ICs.




From declareupdate at gmail.com  Sun Jan 23 04:04:11 2022
From: declareupdate at gmail.com (Chris McDowell)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:04:11 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <7D60C701-6206-4D59-A999-BF5B29FAA9AA@audiobanshee.com>
References: <7D60C701-6206-4D59-A999-BF5B29FAA9AA@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <CBB1ED8E-C6E6-42CF-8404-39609E2C0863@gmail.com>

Super true Brian, the difference here is turnaround time and price. I can submit a new design to JLC, let's say for an analog eurorack module, and get 20 pieces back with all SMD soldered (even some through hole, if common enough) in 2 weeks or less, for ~$70 total. All of this without talking to anyone. 

PCBCart, who I've worked with for years, takes about 8 weeks with ~$2k minimum if I want a reasonable unit cost. They're awesome, and when I need hundreds of something I often go with them. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 22, 2022, at 8:30 PM, Brian Willoughby <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
> 
> ?There's no need to limit yourself to JLC. There are tons of PCB Assembly houses around the world. Depending upon where you live, one might even be nearby. I used to live in Bellevue, WA, and there is a PCB Assembly shop just a 10-minute walk from my home there. They got to know me on a first-name basis, and would have rework done over lunch.
> 
> When it came to full assembly, I would simply provide the PCB from the fab and the parts from Mouser, DigiKey, Jameco, etc. Of course, I made mistakes from time to time, but they would always let me know when my counts were off. I learned that they prefer to have at least 10 spare parts on the tapes because they need some room to feed the pick-and-place. The local guys basically trained me on how to provide them what was needed. As you folks are saying, even a slight amount of time learning how to enable automation pays off many times in efficiency. Also, the boards look absolutely perfect (compared to any of my hand-soldering).
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
>> On Jan 21, 2022, at 17:38, Chris McDowell wrote:
>> heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful. 
>> 
>> Chris McDowell
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2022, at 6:45 PM, Mike Bryant wrote:
>>> From: Chris McDowell 
>>> 
>>> ?  I use JLC just about religiously. I have pretty much sworn off ever soldering a passive again. I'm super lazy though
>>> 
>>> But I bet you?re far more productive than you were before JLC started doing board stuffing.  I know I am.   
>>> 
>>> Though I can?t wait for them to accept external components so I?m not limited to their selection of ICs.
> 



From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sun Jan 23 08:02:16 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 23:02:16 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <CBB1ED8E-C6E6-42CF-8404-39609E2C0863@gmail.com>
References: <7D60C701-6206-4D59-A999-BF5B29FAA9AA@audiobanshee.com>
 <CBB1ED8E-C6E6-42CF-8404-39609E2C0863@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C13A40F-DA89-4F4D-97F8-FAAD68413742@audiobanshee.com>

Wow.

... and to think that I was (silently) complaining about the 5-working-day turnaround of the local guys. Of course, they charged more than $70 because we're talking about US-based labor. At least they would work without a stencil for small runs where the cost of a one-time stencil didn't make sense. I believe they just hand-painted the paste before turning on the pick-and-place.

Brian


On Jan 22, 2022, at 19:04, Chris McDowell <declareupdate at gmail.com> wrote:
> Super true Brian, the difference here is turnaround time and price. I can submit a new design to JLC, let's say for an analog eurorack module, and get 20 pieces back with all SMD soldered (even some through hole, if common enough) in 2 weeks or less, for ~$70 total. All of this without talking to anyone. 
> 
> PCBCart, who I've worked with for years, takes about 8 weeks with ~$2k minimum if I want a reasonable unit cost. They're awesome, and when I need hundreds of something I often go with them. 
> 
> On Jan 22, 2022, at 8:30 PM, Brian Willoughby <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
>> ?There's no need to limit yourself to JLC. There are tons of PCB Assembly houses around the world. Depending upon where you live, one might even be nearby. I used to live in Bellevue, WA, and there is a PCB Assembly shop just a 10-minute walk from my home there. They got to know me on a first-name basis, and would have rework done over lunch.
>> 
>> When it came to full assembly, I would simply provide the PCB from the fab and the parts from Mouser, DigiKey, Jameco, etc. Of course, I made mistakes from time to time, but they would always let me know when my counts were off. I learned that they prefer to have at least 10 spare parts on the tapes because they need some room to feed the pick-and-place. The local guys basically trained me on how to provide them what was needed. As you folks are saying, even a slight amount of time learning how to enable automation pays off many times in efficiency. Also, the boards look absolutely perfect (compared to any of my hand-soldering).
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> On Jan 21, 2022, at 17:38, Chris McDowell wrote:
>>> heh yeah Mike, I'd say "an order of magnitude" more productive. I'm really looking forward to consignment parts too. it would be quite the game changer if they could stuff 2164s, SSI or AS parts, solder through hole on the opposite side of the smd, etc. funny how much better they do this than any other service, even with their huge limitations. Super Synthesis wouldn't really work without them right now, I'm very grateful. 
>>> 
>>> Chris McDowell
>>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2022, at 6:45 PM, Mike Bryant wrote:
>>>> From: Chris McDowell 
>>>> 
>>>> ?  I use JLC just about religiously. I have pretty much sworn off ever soldering a passive again. I'm super lazy though
>>>> 
>>>> But I bet you?re far more productive than you were before JLC started doing board stuffing.  I know I am.   
>>>> 
>>>> Though I can?t wait for them to accept external components so I?m not limited to their selection of ICs.
>> 
> 




From ben at stuyts.nl  Sun Jan 23 14:32:03 2022
From: ben at stuyts.nl (Ben Stuyts)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 14:32:03 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <F4C742C6844E4162BE21249BD5A99A60@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FB525C02CA114686B67C0A92ED34F550@david78c70950b>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <10f3096ecb71431e93724fea6e169386@futurehorizons.com>
 <B42BA684CE704B08A07888DE0B382207@dav	id78c70950b>
 <891303f2d232453a9ec6cea3e92a4706@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_b+j+50pgXPoTWKCxgudY5sJmu=vx2hr-t-wRZFvgkFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW7ACPO7Kq=dA=aixLMEoS1t87oJeJOJN8Lje9HjNZc5SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <F4C742C6844E4162BE21249BD5A99A60@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <F4587BBD-2E9A-40B3-A80C-5872918A844C@stuyts.nl>

Excellent! To me, it has a certain hand-taped layout quality to it. Perhaps because of those non-45 degree traces that everybody is religious about nowadays.

Ben


> On 22 Jan 2022, at 21:25, David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Here are three outputs of my Excel layout exercise.  This is the 18-stage Dome filter in the Freak Shift.  The PCB is nominally 2.1" wide (although I cut them 2" wide to get four out of an 8" blank and it is just fine) and 4.3" long (the maximum for eurorack).  Note that, since several boards stack up, the empty spots under the rectangles on the left and right edges (which represent pin headers) are for "pass-through" pins.  This particular PCB is in the middle of the stack.
>  
> These images are the Layout (where I actually do the routing, by hand, of all the traces -- it is much faster to do than you'd think), the Transfer (which is what is printed on PnP Blue), and the Guide (which is what I look at when stuffing, although now I build these completely from memory).  This board is almost unique in my output, because it only requires one jumper wire (the dark blue line on the right hand edge).  Incidentally, this Dome filter works perfectly with both +12/-12V and +15/-15V supplies.
>  
> <18StageDome Layout.png>
>  
> <18StageDome Transfer.png>
>  
> <18StageDome Guide.png>
> 
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Guy McCusker via Synth-diy
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022 2:56 AM
> To: cheater cheater
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
> 
> [CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:48 AM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>> I think what David is doing is he's using Excel to figure out part substitutions for the passives. He's not doing it for trace routing, that's probably by hand.
> 
> Oh boy are you in for a surprise!
> 
> David's method is quite amazing. 
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sun Jan 23 20:35:00 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 19:35:00 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
Message-ID: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>

https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January

MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this looks like it's sponsored by MacDonalds.

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From modular at go2.pl  Sun Jan 23 21:09:41 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 21:09:41 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Deep thoughts on Old drum machines: the "VCA"
In-Reply-To: <48B5EBE0-F5F1-44B9-B5F6-60F802203E13@adambaby.com>
References: <9084E465-3869-4BB5-9B1A-F7454100CB0A@me.com>
 <BEBEFBAE-1296-42FD-B247-A64BF5AD2D70@audiobanshee.com>
 <CAP92RBWVU2t241hP6yeYsK5AfoQG9ox1Ez1AKv8nqcB-touh6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <48B5EBE0-F5F1-44B9-B5F6-60F802203E13@adambaby.com>
Message-ID: <5791f923-5fe7-f855-caf4-42c86ad95553@go2.pl>

If you talk about Korg 700, the octave selector is not tuning the VCO to 
different octave, but uses waveshaping (basically adding divided square 
to the saw) to create sawtooth exactly one octave lower. This is not 
perfect, so you can see the glitches in the middle of the ramp. And 3 
glitches in lower octave and so on.
This way they had no problem keeping octave switch always in tune and 
VCO didn't have to track in wide range.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-22 o?22:51, Adam Inglis (synthDIY) pisze:
> 
> 
>> On 27 Nov 2021, at 05:16, Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org 
>> <mailto:mr at analogue.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Probably also for synth sounds. Among all potential cases of people 
>> saying that "the old synth sounds better than the new 
>> version/clone/emulation/whatever", offset thumps might be one of the 
>> unknown secrets that reverse engineers often miss.
> 
> 
> I?ve wondered something similar.
> When I?m editing recordings at the waveform level in Cubase, I?ve 
> noticed that my most, er? ?characterful' synths have the most waveform 
> distortion about the zero axis (sorry, can?t think of the technical 
> term!) i.e. the waveform will be skewed more above or below the line 
> (Korg 700, TB-303, SH-2000) whereas more polite sounding synths are 
> perfectly symmetrical about this axis. I?m assuming there is some kind 
> of DC offset going on there, but that may not be the correct explanation
> 
> A
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From sleepy_dog at gmx.de  Sun Jan 23 21:38:45 2022
From: sleepy_dog at gmx.de (sleepy_dog at gmx.de)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 21:38:45 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <694d9577-14bc-1640-d559-6e9ef7623341@gmx.de>

Am 23.01.2022 um 20:35 schrieb Mike Bryant:
>
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
>
> MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this
> looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
>

The Bavarian branch of MacDonald's


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From vladoman at gmail.com  Sun Jan 23 23:12:57 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 23:12:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <694d9577-14bc-1640-d559-6e9ef7623341@gmx.de>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <694d9577-14bc-1640-d559-6e9ef7623341@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <CADBCB7EjmscyiygXnrC1A0ORRAC7eTiopsKWJTMZ993v4bV8Ow@mail.gmail.com>

the Pretzel Protocol

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, 21:41 Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
wrote:

> Am 23.01.2022 um 20:35 schrieb Mike Bryant:
>
>
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
>
>
>
> MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this
> looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
>
>
> The Bavarian branch of MacDonald's
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From francesco.mulassano at gmail.com  Mon Jan 24 00:51:26 2022
From: francesco.mulassano at gmail.com (francesco mulassano)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 00:51:26 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Happy Birthday Electronotes
Message-ID: <CA+R=RzBcEyMjh7A3ynV5jnmgmx4Getvi5An3JWMdGW-HBMW8UA@mail.gmail.com>

francesco mulassano <francesco.mulassano at gmail.com>
[image: Allegati]dom 23 gen, 22:08 (2 ore fa)
a SYNTH
50 years ago, yesterday!
Happy birthday Electronotes!

My video review here (in Italian!)

Happy birthday Electronotes!
https://youtu.be/CPTa5_LVAIg
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Mon Jan 24 03:58:37 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 03:58:37 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <7D60C701-6206-4D59-A999-BF5B29FAA9AA@audiobanshee.com>
References: <FF5CCFD5-D2E9-4EA4-A2CA-2DF4055FF8F4@gmail.com>
 <7D60C701-6206-4D59-A999-BF5B29FAA9AA@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9JYJRvx1900mDDQ2zbMYR3JzqjNAVfRwt3euyg9VmOUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 3:34 AM Brian Willoughby
<brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
>
> There's no need to limit yourself to JLC. There are tons of PCB Assembly houses around the world. Depending upon where you live, one might even be nearby. I used to live in Bellevue, WA, and there is a PCB Assembly shop just a 10-minute walk from my home there. They got to know me on a first-name basis, and would have rework done over lunch.
>
> When it came to full assembly, I would simply provide the PCB from the fab and the parts from Mouser, DigiKey, Jameco, etc. Of course, I made mistakes from time to time, but they would always let me know when my counts were off. I learned that they prefer to have at least 10 spare parts on the tapes because they need some room to feed the pick-and-place. The local guys basically trained me on how to provide them what was needed. As you folks are saying, even a slight amount of time learning how to enable automation pays off many times in efficiency. Also, the boards look absolutely perfect (compared to any of my hand-soldering).
>
> Brian

All for the low, low cost of $19999



From pH at comcast.net  Mon Jan 24 04:32:52 2022
From: pH at comcast.net (p. hendricks)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 19:32:52 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] JLCPCB : was 1-quadrant-multiplier
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9JYJRvx1900mDDQ2zbMYR3JzqjNAVfRwt3euyg9VmOUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FF5CCFD5-D2E9-4EA4-A2CA-2DF4055FF8F4@gmail.com>
 <7D60C701-6206-4D59-A999-BF5B29FAA9AA@audiobanshee.com>
 <CAGn5V-9JYJRvx1900mDDQ2zbMYR3JzqjNAVfRwt3euyg9VmOUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <991d0d6e-f14b-751a-34dd-fd95ea99888c@comcast.net>

On 1/23/22 6:58 PM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> All for the low, low cost of $19999

WTF??? yup.



From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Mon Jan 24 06:16:11 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 21:16:11 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>

Ha!  My first glance at the Subject made me think that you were talking about some MIDI printed circuit board that needs to be replaced. Yeah, vintage MIDI gear will probably need a new board.

Then I realized that you're talking about the board of directors of the MIDI association.


On the one hand, MIDI has been the longest-lived digital communications protocol ever. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing else (besides ASCII text sent via asynchronous serial at low baud rates) has survived intact such that modern gear and vintage gear can still communicate. It seems highly unlikely that MIDI 2.0 will enjoy a significant fraction of that longevity.

On the other hand, it's not like I could design a better MIDI 2.0, nor do I think that I would recognize a protocol that could last over forty years unchanged (at its core). I haven't even dug too deeply into the details of MIDI 2.0 because it doesn't seem like it could possibly be exciting. Apart from branding, can anyone point to something besides buzz?

Brian


On Jan 23, 2022, at 11:35, Mike Bryant wrote:
> 
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
>  
> MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
>  



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 24 06:28:13 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 05:28:13 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <324dd1d1fb04428fbe46b1148d000813@futurehorizons.com>

Yes - this sort of poor branding could consign MIDI2.0 to being laughed at.

It's obviously not aimed at analogue synths which probably couldn't use most of the improved resolution, but most DAWs are intending to switch to it sometime this year.  It's worth it just for the more accurate timing and for having Ethernet support which opens up a lot of new possibilities.

Also I know some in the DJ community are very keen on it as they will be able to move data far faster in live use, rather than preparing their sets beforehand and mostly sticking to it.  A friend of mine has a MIDI2.0 product in development for them now.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com] 
Sent: 24 January 2022 05:16
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

Ha!  My first glance at the Subject made me think that you were talking about some MIDI printed circuit board that needs to be replaced. Yeah, vintage MIDI gear will probably need a new board.

Then I realized that you're talking about the board of directors of the MIDI association.


On the one hand, MIDI has been the longest-lived digital communications protocol ever. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing else (besides ASCII text sent via asynchronous serial at low baud rates) has survived intact such that modern gear and vintage gear can still communicate. It seems highly unlikely that MIDI 2.0 will enjoy a significant fraction of that longevity.

On the other hand, it's not like I could design a better MIDI 2.0, nor do I think that I would recognize a protocol that could last over forty years unchanged (at its core). I haven't even dug too deeply into the details of MIDI 2.0 because it doesn't seem like it could possibly be exciting. Apart from branding, can anyone point to something besides buzz?

Brian


On Jan 23, 2022, at 11:35, Mike Bryant wrote:
> 
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
>  
> MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
>  




From pfperry at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan 24 06:40:49 2022
From: pfperry at melbpc.org.au (Paul Perry)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:40:49 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <324dd1d1fb04428fbe46b1148d000813@futurehorizons.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <324dd1d1fb04428fbe46b1148d000813@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAA79VLpBs7pwEzkgTDbMKnz9S-YSX6u11mmrv46FyyRPyudx=A@mail.gmail.com>

Wonder who will make the first conversion box?

paul perry melbourne australia (bags not me)

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 4:31 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> Yes - this sort of poor branding could consign MIDI2.0 to being laughed at.
>
> It's obviously not aimed at analogue synths which probably couldn't use
> most of the improved resolution, but most DAWs are intending to switch to
> it sometime this year.  It's worth it just for the more accurate timing and
> for having Ethernet support which opens up a lot of new possibilities.
>
> Also I know some in the DJ community are very keen on it as they will be
> able to move data far faster in live use, rather than preparing their sets
> beforehand and mostly sticking to it.  A friend of mine has a MIDI2.0
> product in development for them now.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com]
> Sent: 24 January 2022 05:16
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
> replacing ?
>
> Ha!  My first glance at the Subject made me think that you were talking
> about some MIDI printed circuit board that needs to be replaced. Yeah,
> vintage MIDI gear will probably need a new board.
>
> Then I realized that you're talking about the board of directors of the
> MIDI association.
>
>
> On the one hand, MIDI has been the longest-lived digital communications
> protocol ever. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing else (besides ASCII text sent
> via asynchronous serial at low baud rates) has survived intact such that
> modern gear and vintage gear can still communicate. It seems highly
> unlikely that MIDI 2.0 will enjoy a significant fraction of that longevity.
>
> On the other hand, it's not like I could design a better MIDI 2.0, nor do
> I think that I would recognize a protocol that could last over forty years
> unchanged (at its core). I haven't even dug too deeply into the details of
> MIDI 2.0 because it doesn't seem like it could possibly be exciting. Apart
> from branding, can anyone point to something besides buzz?
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2022, at 11:35, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
> >
> > MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this
> looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From synthdiy at adambaby.com  Mon Jan 24 08:10:27 2022
From: synthdiy at adambaby.com (Adam Inglis (synthDIY))
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:10:27 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CAA79VLpBs7pwEzkgTDbMKnz9S-YSX6u11mmrv46FyyRPyudx=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <324dd1d1fb04428fbe46b1148d000813@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA79VLpBs7pwEzkgTDbMKnz9S-YSX6u11mmrv46FyyRPyudx=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33C84CAF-22A0-47A6-93E8-2E97A9E569C2@adambaby.com>



> On 24 Jan 2022, at 15:40, Paul Perry via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Wonder who will make the first conversion box?

Kenton, of course!

(They always were your serious competition weren?t they Paul?  ;-))

A


> 
> paul perry melbourne australia (bags not me)
> 
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 4:31 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com <mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
> Yes - this sort of poor branding could consign MIDI2.0 to being laughed at.
> 
> It's obviously not aimed at analogue synths which probably couldn't use most of the improved resolution, but most DAWs are intending to switch to it sometime this year.  It's worth it just for the more accurate timing and for having Ethernet support which opens up a lot of new possibilities.
> 
> Also I know some in the DJ community are very keen on it as they will be able to move data far faster in live use, rather than preparing their sets beforehand and mostly sticking to it.  A friend of mine has a MIDI2.0 product in development for them now.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com <mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com>] 
> Sent: 24 January 2022 05:16
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?
> 
> Ha!  My first glance at the Subject made me think that you were talking about some MIDI printed circuit board that needs to be replaced. Yeah, vintage MIDI gear will probably need a new board.
> 
> Then I realized that you're talking about the board of directors of the MIDI association.
> 
> 
> On the one hand, MIDI has been the longest-lived digital communications protocol ever. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing else (besides ASCII text sent via asynchronous serial at low baud rates) has survived intact such that modern gear and vintage gear can still communicate. It seems highly unlikely that MIDI 2.0 will enjoy a significant fraction of that longevity.
> 
> On the other hand, it's not like I could design a better MIDI 2.0, nor do I think that I would recognize a protocol that could last over forty years unchanged (at its core). I haven't even dug too deeply into the details of MIDI 2.0 because it doesn't seem like it could possibly be exciting. Apart from branding, can anyone point to something besides buzz?
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> On Jan 23, 2022, at 11:35, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > 
> > https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January <https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January>
> >  
> > MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
> >  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From mr at analogue.org  Mon Jan 24 12:42:40 2022
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:42:40 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBVeXwvDY+Jp2qRQ_JJZy99K6Fv+0nDy0AdE9LfnPz7EZg@mail.gmail.com>

Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> skrev:

>
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
>
>
>
> MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this
> looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
>

Or by Meta, who launched an almost identical logo at almost the same time.

/mr
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From john at sleefamily.org  Mon Jan 24 13:04:49 2022
From: john at sleefamily.org (jslee)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 23:04:49 +1100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, at 16:16, Brian Willoughby wrote:
> On the one hand, MIDI has been the longest-lived digital communications 
> protocol ever. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing else (besides ASCII text 
> sent via asynchronous serial at low baud rates) has survived intact 
> such that modern gear and vintage gear can still communicate

IP ? the published, documented IP version 4 protocol that we still use today ? predates MIDI slightly. The guts have remained the same and, as far as I?m aware, compatible. Though various options and extensions have been added, and since ~1996 we?ve also had IPv6.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc760

Ethernet was also commercially available in 1980, though not an IEEE standard until slightly later

Still, that certainly leaves MIDI in some rare and distinguished company.

John



From mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com  Mon Jan 24 13:50:05 2022
From: mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com (mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 07:50:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, jslee via Synth-diy wrote:
> IP ? the published, documented IP version 4 protocol that we still use today ? predates MIDI slightly. The guts have remained the same and, as far as I?m aware, compatible. Though various options and extensions have been added, and since ~1996 we?ve also had IPv6.
> Ethernet was also commercially available in 1980, though not an IEEE standard until slightly later
>
> Still, that certainly leaves MIDI in some rare and distinguished company.

If we're playing this game, the basic electrical standard for landline
telephone service dates from the 1870s.  Pulse dialling is from the 1890s
and I think many networks can still accept the pulse dialling signals of
that era, even if the numbering schemes have changed and DTMF introduced
in the 1960s is now preferred.  I still use a DTMF phone plugged into a
cable modem; the cable modem does not do a good job of following the
standard (insufficient ring voltage - I had to build a booster) but my
phone, manufactured in the 2010s, would've worked on at least a 1970s-era
North American network, and except for dialling might have worked on at
least some 1890s-era networks.  Of course, part of the secret to that is
just the wide tolerances - both the phones and networks are designed to
accept a lot of variation in the things they connect to.

I think there are also some very longstanding standards in electrical
power (voltages both in the home and for transmission lines; AC
frequencies; phase arrangment; plug designs); but a little poking through
Wikipedia suggests that those things have not remained unchanged or
backward compatible quite as long as the telephone, with their current
forms in North America mostly appearing in the early 20th Century. They're
still in flux in some other places.

-- 
Matthew Skala
North Coast Synthesis Ltd.


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 24 15:00:32 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:00:32 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
Message-ID: <5da567bbdb85478a8991296860f21bd4@futurehorizons.com>

Reminded me of this paragragh in the Raspberry Pi RP2040 datasheet :-)

"I2C is an ubiquitous serial bus first described in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and later used by Philips Semiconductor. Two wires with pullup resistors form an open-drain bus, and multiple agents address and signal one another over this bus by driving the bus lines low, or releasing them to be pulled high."


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Skala via Synth-diy
Sent: 24 January 2022 12:50
To: jslee via Synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, jslee via Synth-diy wrote:
> IP ? the published, documented IP version 4 protocol that we still use today ? predates MIDI slightly. The guts have remained the same and, as far as I?m aware, compatible. Though various options and extensions have been added, and since ~1996 we?ve also had IPv6.
> Ethernet was also commercially available in 1980, though not an IEEE 
> standard until slightly later
>
> Still, that certainly leaves MIDI in some rare and distinguished company.

If we're playing this game, the basic electrical standard for landline telephone service dates from the 1870s.  Pulse dialling is from the 1890s and I think many networks can still accept the pulse dialling signals of that era, even if the numbering schemes have changed and DTMF introduced in the 1960s is now preferred.  I still use a DTMF phone plugged into a cable modem; the cable modem does not do a good job of following the standard (insufficient ring voltage - I had to build a booster) but my phone, manufactured in the 2010s, would've worked on at least a 1970s-era North American network, and except for dialling might have worked on at least some 1890s-era networks.  Of course, part of the secret to that is just the wide tolerances - both the phones and networks are designed to accept a lot of variation in the things they connect to.

I think there are also some very longstanding standards in electrical power (voltages both in the home and for transmission lines; AC frequencies; phase arrangment; plug designs); but a little poking through Wikipedia suggests that those things have not remained unchanged or backward compatible quite as long as the telephone, with their current forms in North America mostly appearing in the early 20th Century. They're still in flux in some other places.

--
Matthew Skala
North Coast Synthesis Ltd.
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 24 15:05:07 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:05:07 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxKCdq0naMdJpVsWAiNKf2rToA3VvsOSqzuiRJEAv_7+BA@mail.gmail.com>

Matthew Skala wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, jslee via Synth-diy wrote:
> > IP ? the published, documented IP version 4 protocol that we still use today ? predates MIDI slightly. The guts have remained the same and, as far as I?m aware, compatible. Though various options and extensions have been added, and since ~1996 we?ve also had IPv6.
> > Ethernet was also commercially available in 1980, though not an IEEE standard until slightly later
> >
> > Still, that certainly leaves MIDI in some rare and distinguished company.
>
> If we're playing this game, the basic electrical standard for landline
> telephone service dates from the 1870s.  Pulse dialling is from the 1890s
> and I think many networks can still accept the pulse dialling signals of
> that era, even if the numbering schemes have changed and DTMF introduced
> in the 1960s is now preferred.

And before all that was Morse, still in use today.  Ironically, as a
serial transmission system it is rather closely related to MIDI...

Neil



From chromatest at azburners.org  Mon Jan 24 15:26:21 2022
From: chromatest at azburners.org (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 07:26:21 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <324dd1d1fb04428fbe46b1148d000813@futurehorizons.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <324dd1d1fb04428fbe46b1148d000813@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CADpm=3HjCd_UnxRsdhPxKmmDxTXsxQVy=+Z96j_w9-8N+VoD_w@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know very many DJs who prepare their sets before hand and mostly
stick to it. How does MIDI help a DJ be creative with the songs they choose
to play?

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, 10:29 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> Yes - this sort of poor branding could consign MIDI2.0 to being laughed at.
>
> It's obviously not aimed at analogue synths which probably couldn't use
> most of the improved resolution, but most DAWs are intending to switch to
> it sometime this year.  It's worth it just for the more accurate timing and
> for having Ethernet support which opens up a lot of new possibilities.
>
> Also I know some in the DJ community are very keen on it as they will be
> able to move data far faster in live use, rather than preparing their sets
> beforehand and mostly sticking to it.  A friend of mine has a MIDI2.0
> product in development for them now.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com]
> Sent: 24 January 2022 05:16
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
> replacing ?
>
> Ha!  My first glance at the Subject made me think that you were talking
> about some MIDI printed circuit board that needs to be replaced. Yeah,
> vintage MIDI gear will probably need a new board.
>
> Then I realized that you're talking about the board of directors of the
> MIDI association.
>
>
> On the one hand, MIDI has been the longest-lived digital communications
> protocol ever. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing else (besides ASCII text sent
> via asynchronous serial at low baud rates) has survived intact such that
> modern gear and vintage gear can still communicate. It seems highly
> unlikely that MIDI 2.0 will enjoy a significant fraction of that longevity.
>
> On the other hand, it's not like I could design a better MIDI 2.0, nor do
> I think that I would recognize a protocol that could last over forty years
> unchanged (at its core). I haven't even dug too deeply into the details of
> MIDI 2.0 because it doesn't seem like it could possibly be exciting. Apart
> from branding, can anyone point to something besides buzz?
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2022, at 11:35, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
> >
> > MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this
> looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 24 15:51:38 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:51:38 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3HjCd_UnxRsdhPxKmmDxTXsxQVy=+Z96j_w9-8N+VoD_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <324dd1d1fb04428fbe46b1148d000813@futurehorizons.com>
 <CADpm=3HjCd_UnxRsdhPxKmmDxTXsxQVy=+Z96j_w9-8N+VoD_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ba99c061364440fdb1c5c21cf7fd252e@futurehorizons.com>

Because most DJs don?t ?play songs? anymore.  It?s become an extremely creative medium where they will mix from many sources, use lots of looping and often add their own keyboard or synth riffs over the top.  And if they have the voice, maybe some rap as well.

But to do that you have to plan an awful lot of it in advance, effectively making you a bit of a sequencer.  Have a look at videos filmed behind Swedish House Mafia, Donato Dozzy or any of the other top DJs and you?ll see what I mean, especially when it?s a team thing like SHM.

One advantage of MIDI 2.0 will be being able to synchronise samples in time more accurately, but they can also move samples around quickly and lots of other stuff.  I?m sure we?ll see lots of creative ideas nobody has thought about yet once it?s out in the wild.


From: Chromatest J. Pantsmaker [mailto:chromatest at azburners.org]
Sent: 24 January 2022 14:26
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

I don't know very many DJs who prepare their sets before hand and mostly stick to it. How does MIDI help a DJ be creative with the songs they choose to play?

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, 10:29 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
Yes - this sort of poor branding could consign MIDI2.0 to being laughed at.

It's obviously not aimed at analogue synths which probably couldn't use most of the improved resolution, but most DAWs are intending to switch to it sometime this year.  It's worth it just for the more accurate timing and for having Ethernet support which opens up a lot of new possibilities.

Also I know some in the DJ community are very keen on it as they will be able to move data far faster in live use, rather than preparing their sets beforehand and mostly sticking to it.  A friend of mine has a MIDI2.0 product in development for them now.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com<mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com>]
Sent: 24 January 2022 05:16
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

Ha!  My first glance at the Subject made me think that you were talking about some MIDI printed circuit board that needs to be replaced. Yeah, vintage MIDI gear will probably need a new board.

Then I realized that you're talking about the board of directors of the MIDI association.


On the one hand, MIDI has been the longest-lived digital communications protocol ever. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing else (besides ASCII text sent via asynchronous serial at low baud rates) has survived intact such that modern gear and vintage gear can still communicate. It seems highly unlikely that MIDI 2.0 will enjoy a significant fraction of that longevity.

On the other hand, it's not like I could design a better MIDI 2.0, nor do I think that I would recognize a protocol that could last over forty years unchanged (at its core). I haven't even dug too deeply into the details of MIDI 2.0 because it doesn't seem like it could possibly be exciting. Apart from branding, can anyone point to something besides buzz?

Brian


On Jan 23, 2022, at 11:35, Mike Bryant wrote:
>
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
>
> MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
>


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
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From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Mon Jan 24 16:34:01 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 15:34:01 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <33C84CAF-22A0-47A6-93E8-2E97A9E569C2@adambaby.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <324dd1d1fb04428fbe46b1148d000813@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAA79VLpBs7pwEzkgTDbMKnz9S-YSX6u11mmrv46FyyRPyudx=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <33C84CAF-22A0-47A6-93E8-2E97A9E569C2@adambaby.com>
Message-ID: <em6f72ccf9-f28c-4ec0-a287-e0a1148064a9@asus_n76>

My money is on Bome, though the iConnect MIDI guys can't be far behind,..

GB

------ Original Message ------
From: "Adam Inglis (synthDIY)" <synthdiy at adambaby.com<mailto:synthdiy at adambaby.com>>
To: "Paul Perry" <pfperry at melbpc.org.au<mailto:pfperry at melbpc.org.au>>; "synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>" <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
Sent: 1/23/2022 11:10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

On 24 Jan 2022, at 15:40, Paul Perry via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:

Wonder who will make the first conversion box?

Kenton, of course!

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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Mon Jan 24 22:12:05 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 13:12:05 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
Message-ID: <400AAAB2-4002-47AA-8B43-454A51B8C61B@audiobanshee.com>

I think that POTS (Plain Old Telephone System) fits the description that I poorly expressed.

Both the electrical and communications aspects of telephone are still backwards compatible, although there are only about 20 POTS symbols, and fewer if you go back to pulse dialing. There may be some technical issues that I'm not aware of. My family had an antique wall-mounted telephone with a fixed microphone and a hand-held ear piece, but someone with knowledge of the telephone system had to modify the electronics so that it would interface with the phone system - this was in the early eighties. I wish I understood the details of what was changed with that set to make it compatible, because I was under the impression that everything was backwards compatible (until, perhaps, the late nineties when digital became the norm).

I don't think that IP counts, but mostly because I didn't describe things clearly enough. The data protocol of IP is certainly the same, but I don't think that the electrical interfaces are still compatible. In other words, I don't think that you could revive an original Xerox Alto IP interface and plug it directly into a modern network without some sort of adapter that would receive the packets over an older electrical interface and retransmit them over a modern electrical interface. MIDI doesn't have this same situation.

My point about the uniqueness of MIDI is that absolutely nothing needs to be adapted to plug the physical current loop of a 1983 synthesizer with modern MIDI gear (unless it's USB-MIDI only without a 5-pin DIN connector). The signals sent and received by the vintage gear are exactly what the modern gear is also dealing with, without any intermediate translation going on. This, plus the fact that ground loops are avoided while the gear is connected, is fairly impressive given the way that *everything* else changes every year or two, requiring replacement.

Brian


On Jan 24, 2022, at 04:50, Matthew Skala wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, jslee wrote:
>> IP ? the published, documented IP version 4 protocol that we still use today ? predates MIDI slightly. The guts have remained the same and, as far as I?m aware, compatible. Though various options and extensions have been added, and since ~1996 we?ve also had IPv6.
>> Ethernet was also commercially available in 1980, though not an IEEE standard until slightly later
>> 
>> Still, that certainly leaves MIDI in some rare and distinguished company.
> 
> If we're playing this game, the basic electrical standard for landline
> telephone service dates from the 1870s.  Pulse dialling is from the 1890s
> and I think many networks can still accept the pulse dialling signals of
> that era, even if the numbering schemes have changed and DTMF introduced
> in the 1960s is now preferred.  I still use a DTMF phone plugged into a
> cable modem; the cable modem does not do a good job of following the
> standard (insufficient ring voltage - I had to build a booster) but my
> phone, manufactured in the 2010s, would've worked on at least a 1970s-era
> North American network, and except for dialling might have worked on at
> least some 1890s-era networks.  Of course, part of the secret to that is
> just the wide tolerances - both the phones and networks are designed to
> accept a lot of variation in the things they connect to.
> 
> I think there are also some very longstanding standards in electrical
> power (voltages both in the home and for transmission lines; AC
> frequencies; phase arrangment; plug designs); but a little poking through
> Wikipedia suggests that those things have not remained unchanged or
> backward compatible quite as long as the telephone, with their current
> forms in North America mostly appearing in the early 20th Century. They're
> still in flux in some other places.
> 
> -- 
> Matthew Skala
> North Coast Synthesis Ltd.



From edwardschultheis at me.com  Mon Jan 24 22:19:49 2022
From: edwardschultheis at me.com (Edward Schultheis)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 13:19:49 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CAA79VLpBs7pwEzkgTDbMKnz9S-YSX6u11mmrv46FyyRPyudx=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA79VLpBs7pwEzkgTDbMKnz9S-YSX6u11mmrv46FyyRPyudx=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BE5594C-8BCB-47A1-A389-7AC2280987A6@me.com>

I thought talking about the Kurzweil Midiboard. Which I?d love to have!

Edward Schultheis

Sent from me!

> On Jan 23, 2022, at 9:45 PM, Paul Perry via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Wonder who will make the first conversion box?
> 
> paul perry melbourne australia (bags not me)
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 4:31 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> Yes - this sort of poor branding could consign MIDI2.0 to being laughed at.
>> 
>> It's obviously not aimed at analogue synths which probably couldn't use most of the improved resolution, but most DAWs are intending to switch to it sometime this year.  It's worth it just for the more accurate timing and for having Ethernet support which opens up a lot of new possibilities.
>> 
>> Also I know some in the DJ community are very keen on it as they will be able to move data far faster in live use, rather than preparing their sets beforehand and mostly sticking to it.  A friend of mine has a MIDI2.0 product in development for them now.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com] 
>> Sent: 24 January 2022 05:16
>> To: Mike Bryant
>> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?
>> 
>> Ha!  My first glance at the Subject made me think that you were talking about some MIDI printed circuit board that needs to be replaced. Yeah, vintage MIDI gear will probably need a new board.
>> 
>> Then I realized that you're talking about the board of directors of the MIDI association.
>> 
>> 
>> On the one hand, MIDI has been the longest-lived digital communications protocol ever. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing else (besides ASCII text sent via asynchronous serial at low baud rates) has survived intact such that modern gear and vintage gear can still communicate. It seems highly unlikely that MIDI 2.0 will enjoy a significant fraction of that longevity.
>> 
>> On the other hand, it's not like I could design a better MIDI 2.0, nor do I think that I would recognize a protocol that could last over forty years unchanged (at its core). I haven't even dug too deeply into the details of MIDI 2.0 because it doesn't seem like it could possibly be exciting. Apart from branding, can anyone point to something besides buzz?
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 23, 2022, at 11:35, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> > 
>> > https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/pentagram-designs-the-new-midi-logo?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+January
>> >  
>> > MIDI 2.0 is an important breakthrough and my first thoughts were this looks like it?s sponsored by MacDonalds.
>> >  
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From mr at analogue.org  Tue Jan 25 21:26:32 2022
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:26:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>

Matthew Skala via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> skrev:

>
> If we're playing this game, the basic electrical standard for landline
> telephone service dates from the 1870s.  Pulse dialling is from the 1890s
> and I think many networks can still accept the pulse dialling signals of
> that era, even if the numbering schemes have changed and DTMF introduced
> in the 1960s is now preferred.  I still use a DTMF phone plugged into a
> cable modem; the cable modem does not do a good job of following the
> standard (insufficient ring voltage - I had to build a booster) but my
> phone, manufactured in the 2010s, would've worked on at least a 1970s-era
> North American network, and except for dialling might have worked on at
> least some 1890s-era networks.
>

You should try to order some Telharmonium service for maximum enjoyment!
Wonderful system also from the 1890s. A pity it closed down... or did it?
(-:

/mr

>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Tue Jan 25 21:33:13 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 20:33:13 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>

Yeah ? who said the Hammond wasn?t an expert demonstration in miniaturisation :-)

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Mattias Rickardsson
Sent: 25 January 2022 20:27
To: mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com
Cc: jslee via Synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

Matthew Skala via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> skrev:

If we're playing this game, the basic electrical standard for landline
telephone service dates from the 1870s.  Pulse dialling is from the 1890s
and I think many networks can still accept the pulse dialling signals of
that era, even if the numbering schemes have changed and DTMF introduced
in the 1960s is now preferred.  I still use a DTMF phone plugged into a
cable modem; the cable modem does not do a good job of following the
standard (insufficient ring voltage - I had to build a booster) but my
phone, manufactured in the 2010s, would've worked on at least a 1970s-era
North American network, and except for dialling might have worked on at
least some 1890s-era networks.

You should try to order some Telharmonium service for maximum enjoyment! Wonderful system also from the 1890s. A pity it closed down... or did it? (-:

/mr
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From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Tue Jan 25 22:16:50 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:16:50 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>

Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Wed Jan 26 04:31:25 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (Brian Willoughby)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 19:31:25 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
Message-ID: <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>

On Jan 25, 2022, at 13:16, grant musictechnologiesgroup.com wrote:
> Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.

Hear, hear. I don't see how we're going to depend on 1/8" TRS MIDI not being a source for ground loops.

I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.

I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.

Brian




From list at mikebeauchamp.com  Wed Jan 26 04:41:49 2022
From: list at mikebeauchamp.com (Mike Beauchamp)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 22:41:49 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>

On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
> I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.
> 
> I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.

I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with a 
custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?

Mike




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 05:35:37 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 05:35:37 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--Cac30v2q8vvt74P9bN176cr0QAwse7DU7QZrELMi8tw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone
in your sourcing department decides that another cable is
"equivalent",

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:44 AM Mike Beauchamp <list at mikebeauchamp.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
> > I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.
> >
> > I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.
>
> I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with a
> custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?
>
> Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From vladoman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 09:57:09 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 09:57:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <75dcd5e0-f92f-42ab-d76e-64128c955d6d@gmail.com>

On 26.01.22 04:31, Brian Willoughby wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2022, at 13:16, grant musictechnologiesgroup.com wrote:
>> Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
> 
> Hear, hear. I don't see how we're going to depend on 1/8" TRS MIDI not being a source for ground loops.

probably this class of devices is already ground looped through their
USB connection ;)



From mr at analogue.org  Wed Jan 26 11:53:32 2022
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:53:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>

<grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> skrev:

> Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up standard for
> 1/8" TRS connectors.
>

But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not 3.5 mm
(1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:

3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the
manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose the
other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless special
cables/adapters are at hand.

In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS MIDI In to
accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a setting in the UI
chooses between the two polarities for the TRS MIDI Out. Has this been done
anywhere else? I've always felt that it perhaps should be published as an
official application note, a suggested implementation superpower for other
manufacturers to pick up. :-)

/mr
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From vladoman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 11:59:30 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:59:30 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d726a1b8-b5e2-81cc-3902-0c99cbe94da1@gmail.com>

On 26.01.22 11:53, Mattias Rickardsson wrote:

> In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS MIDI In
> to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a setting in the
> UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS MIDI Out. Has this
> been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it perhaps should be
> published as an official application note, a suggested implementation
> superpower for other manufacturers to pick up. :-)

in a Eurorack module I helped design, we used a bridge rectifier in the
input to accept A or B and an SMD DPDT switch on the back to select the
output polarity.




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Wed Jan 26 12:02:18 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:02:18 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bad2186d086a4fc2802b6107d52e5a58@futurehorizons.com>

Good idea.  With a bit of extra circuitry you might even be able to detect which polarity to use going out to save having a setting.

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Mattias Rickardsson
Sent: 26 January 2022 10:54
To: grant musictechnologiesgroup.com
Cc: Synth DIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

<grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com<mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> skrev:
Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.

But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not 3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:

3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose the other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless special cables/adapters are at hand.

In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS MIDI In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a setting in the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS MIDI Out. Has this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it perhaps should be published as an official application note, a suggested implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick up. :-)

/mr

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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Wed Jan 26 12:50:50 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:50:50 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <b0355a20-37f5-40a0-406f-132669b4c667@gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bad2186d086a4fc2802b6107d52e5a58@futurehorizons.com>
 <b0355a20-37f5-40a0-406f-132669b4c667@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1188510fe88f4deaa3c1176456bc110e@futurehorizons.com>

I don't see why not.  Just have two drivers capable of positive and negative output with current limiters and a voltage measurement.  Try both.  Either 0.7V or 5V is the wrong way around, 2-3V is the correct way.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir Pantelic [mailto:vladoman at gmail.com] 
Sent: 26 January 2022 11:09
To: Mike Bryant
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

yes, but does not help if the user picks a random dongle or uses a TRS cable to go into the next module with unknown polarity...

so you always need a setting and the module has very little UI for that, thus we opted for the "silk screen" setting :)


On 26.01.22 12:02, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Good idea.? With a bit of extra circuitry you might even be able to 
> detect which polarity to use going out to save having a setting.
> 
> ?
> 
> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf 
> Of *Mattias Rickardsson
> *Sent:* 26 January 2022 10:54
> *To:* grant musictechnologiesgroup.com
> *Cc:* Synth DIY
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board 
> needs replacing ?
> 
> ?
> 
> <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> skrev:
> 
>     Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up
>     standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
> 
> ?
> 
> But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not 
> 3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:
> 
> ?
> 
> 3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the 
> manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose the 
> other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless 
> special cables/adapters are at hand.
> 
> ?
> 
> In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS MIDI 
> In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a setting in 
> the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS MIDI Out. Has 
> this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it perhaps should 
> be published as an official application note, a suggested 
> implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick up. :-)
> 
> ?
> 
> /mr
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 





From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Wed Jan 26 13:11:49 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:11:49 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
Message-ID: <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>

On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 10:41:49PM -0500, Mike Beauchamp wrote:
> On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
> > I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.
> > 
> > I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.
> 
> I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with a
> custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?
> 

I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.

Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop currents to the point where they don't have an effect.

-- 
Gordonjcp


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Wed Jan 26 14:16:24 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:16:24 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>

Good idea.  Might stop people lifting the grounds on equipment they really shouldn't do so on !!


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
Sent: 26 January 2022 12:12
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 10:41:49PM -0500, Mike Beauchamp wrote:
> On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
> > I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.
> > 
> > I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.
> 
> I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with a 
> custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?
> 

I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.

Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop currents to the point where they don't have an effect.

--
Gordonjcp
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Wed Jan 26 14:38:59 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:38:59 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <67517286-37E0-4414-9EA4-5B9BB95D106C@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <67517286-37E0-4414-9EA4-5B9BB95D106C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220126133859.GA902@gjcp.net>

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 11:54:21AM +0100, Ingo Debus via Synth-diy wrote:
> 
> 
> > Am 21.01.2022 um 19:22 schrieb Mike Beauchamp <list at mikebeauchamp.com>:
> > 
> > KiCad takes about 3-6 hours to learn while doing your first project
> 
> I don?t know KiCad, but this seems a bit optimistic to me. With all the PCB design packages I?ve used so far, it took me longer to ?learn? them. Or is there something in KiCad that Altium Designer, Eagle and others don?t have?
> 
> Or are you a software guy? I know software guys often tend to underestimate the time required to do something ?.

I'm very much a hardware guy (although these days I mostly do software).

What I tend to recommend folk do is get the most recent Kicad and then use it to make a "cover version" of an existing design - draw in the circuit diagram, lay it out like the original, then lay out the PCB to match.

That way you're only climbing the "how do I drive the application" learning curve, instead of that *and* "how do I lay out this diagram and PCB" learning curve too.

Of course if you're already experienced in laying out circuits and PCBs, you can just redraw one of your own.

-- 
Gordonjcp



From quincas at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 15:11:44 2022
From: quincas at gmail.com (Quincas Moreira)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 08:11:44 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>

Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both standards for
the input and has selectable output.
I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously limit
the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny these days?
And yes, while the standard chose a smaller barrel, this was indeed done
too late when already all manufacturers are using 3.5mm. They should have
stuck to that and just chosen one polarity to be the standard  IMO.
BTW I?ve been using 3.5mm trs MIDI for nearly a decade myself and have
never encountered a ground loop issue.

On Wed 26 Jan 2022 at 4:57 Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org> wrote:

> <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> skrev:
>
>> Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up standard for
>> 1/8" TRS connectors.
>>
>
> But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not 3.5
> mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:
>
> 3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the
> manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose the
> other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless special
> cables/adapters are at hand.
>
> In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS MIDI In
> to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a setting in the UI
> chooses between the two polarities for the TRS MIDI Out. Has this been done
> anywhere else? I've always felt that it perhaps should be published as an
> official application note, a suggested implementation superpower for other
> manufacturers to pick up. :-)
>
> /mr
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
-- 
[image: QMA]

Quincas Moreira
Director | QMA
mobile:  5534988825
site:  quincasmoreira.com
email:  quincas at gmail.com
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From tom at electricdruid.net  Wed Jan 26 15:26:17 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 14:26:17 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB66B170-DECF-42B9-A8E4-E01487FD79B8@electricdruid.net>

So does the 3.5mm TRS MIDI not-Standard connect the ground of the TRS lead at both ends, or only one like DIN MIDI? And does it use opto-isolation in the same way?

If so, it's basically just a change of connector for something of a smaller size and I don't see any problem with it. If the good features of the original standard also got dropped in the change, that seems like a somewhat retrogressive step.

While I can see that if everyone was using 3.5mm perhaps it made sense for the standard to reflect that, 3.5mm is alos used for audio input/output on a gazillion devices and people are absolutely bound to try connecting it, just to see if it works. 2.5mm is less common and prevents that to some extent.

Tom

==================
       Electric Druid
Synth & Stompbox DIY
==================



> On 26 Jan 2022, at 14:11, Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both standards for the input and has selectable output. 
> I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously limit the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny these days? And yes, while the standard chose a smaller barrel, this was indeed done too late when already all manufacturers are using 3.5mm. They should have stuck to that and just chosen one polarity to be the standard  IMO.
> BTW I?ve been using 3.5mm trs MIDI for nearly a decade myself and have never encountered a ground loop issue.
> 
> On Wed 26 Jan 2022 at 4:57 Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org <mailto:mr at analogue.org>> wrote:
> <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> skrev:
> Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
> 
> But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not 3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:
> 
> 3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose the other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless special cables/adapters are at hand.
> 
> In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS MIDI In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a setting in the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS MIDI Out. Has this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it perhaps should be published as an official application note, a suggested implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick up. :-)
> 
> /mr
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> -- 
> 	
> Quincas Moreira
> Director | QMA
> mobile:  5534988825 <tel:5534988825>
> site:  quincasmoreira.com <http://quincasmoreira.com/>
> email:  quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Wed Jan 26 15:38:00 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 14:38:00 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220126143800.GB2386@gjcp.net>

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 08:11:44AM -0600, Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy wrote:
> Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both standards for
> the input and has selectable output.
> I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously limit
> the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny these days?

On the other hand, I wish we'd never moved away from 3-pin XLRs for MIDI...

-- 
Gordonjcp



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Wed Jan 26 15:57:40 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 14:57:40 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <20220126143800.GB2386@gjcp.net>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220126143800.GB2386@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <b5448887280d4b21907000f834b61e0d@futurehorizons.com>

Agree on XLR, but not on the 3 pins.   

Quite why everything in AV has to try to use the 3 pin version is beyond me since there's always been 2 through 6 way versions.   Early lighting systems often used the 3 pin before DMX512 came along, and I remember some speakers even used them before Neutrik brought out the Speakon.

And it's not like AES digital will get very far down the average mic cable.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
Sent: 26 January 2022 14:38
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 08:11:44AM -0600, Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy wrote:
> Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both 
> standards for the input and has selectable output.
> I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously 
> limit the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny 
> these days?

On the other hand, I wish we'd never moved away from 3-pin XLRs for MIDI...

--
Gordonjcp

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Wed Jan 26 16:30:52 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 15:30:52 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <d4531100da1620b33de5f367c645fe02@richieburnett.co.uk>

> I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable
> with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.
> 
> Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms
> if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite
> impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop
> currents to the point where they don't have an effect.

That's a good point.

Often you can solve problems like this by connecting the shield to 
ground via a 100nF capacitor and 1Meg resistor in parallel (at one or 
both ends.)  The impedance of the parallel combination is low for 
high-frequency signals (and most noise that has come through the air 
before coupling onto your cable is high-frequency in nature,) and 
conversely the impedance is nice and high for low-frequency signals 
(like 50Hz "hum" currents due to earth loops,) so not much current flows 
at these low frequencies.  The 1Meg resistor prevents static build up 
across the 100nF capacitor, so it at least tries to keep them with the 
same DC potential if one of the bits of kit is "floating" relative to 
the other.

-Richie,


From cheater00social at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 17:38:50 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 17:38:50 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <d4531100da1620b33de5f367c645fe02@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
 <d4531100da1620b33de5f367c645fe02@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-91YNSzAwaL8GbTUSr0OvduTq9fuUOnPHG+mL_MvUiamw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not fully sure, but I believe this was said to be a bad idea in
the relevant Rane app note.

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:35 PM <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable
> > with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.
> >
> > Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms
> > if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite
> > impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop
> > currents to the point where they don't have an effect.
>
> That's a good point.
>
> Often you can solve problems like this by connecting the shield to
> ground via a 100nF capacitor and 1Meg resistor in parallel (at one or
> both ends.)  The impedance of the parallel combination is low for
> high-frequency signals (and most noise that has come through the air
> before coupling onto your cable is high-frequency in nature,) and
> conversely the impedance is nice and high for low-frequency signals
> (like 50Hz "hum" currents due to earth loops,) so not much current flows
> at these low frequencies.  The 1Meg resistor prevents static build up
> across the 100nF capacitor, so it at least tries to keep them with the
> same DC potential if one of the bits of kit is "floating" relative to
> the other.
>
> -Richie,
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From tensiontype at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 26 20:04:36 2022
From: tensiontype at hotmail.com (Sean Ellis)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 19:04:36 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Quite a few modules do it:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf


________________________________
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2022 3:11 PM
To: Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org>
Cc: Synth DIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both standards for the input and has selectable output.
I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously limit the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny these days? And yes, while the standard chose a smaller barrel, this was indeed done too late when already all manufacturers are using 3.5mm. They should have stuck to that and just chosen one polarity to be the standard  IMO.
BTW I?ve been using 3.5mm trs MIDI for nearly a decade myself and have never encountered a ground loop issue.

On Wed 26 Jan 2022 at 4:57 Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org<mailto:mr at analogue.org>> wrote:
<grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com<mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> skrev:
Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.

But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not 3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:

3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose the other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless special cables/adapters are at hand.

In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS MIDI In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a setting in the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS MIDI Out. Has this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it perhaps should be published as an official application note, a suggested implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick up. :-)

/mr

_______________________________________________
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Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
--
[QMA]
Quincas Moreira
Director | QMA
mobile:  5534988825<tel:5534988825>
site:  quincasmoreira.com<http://quincasmoreira.com/>
email:  quincas at gmail.com<mailto:quincas at gmail.com>

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From mr at analogue.org  Wed Jan 26 20:38:22 2022
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 20:38:22 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <EB66B170-DECF-42B9-A8E4-E01487FD79B8@electricdruid.net>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EB66B170-DECF-42B9-A8E4-E01487FD79B8@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBWnLZ2e-hoW4FJXj9svQV3jsV8kQu2ZXvkcjd4tizf3JA@mail.gmail.com>

Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> skrev:

> So does the 3.5mm TRS MIDI not-Standard connect the ground of the TRS lead
> at both ends, or only one like DIN MIDI? And does it use opto-isolation in
> the same way?
>
> If so, it's basically just a change of connector for something of a
> smaller size and I don't see any problem with it. If the good features of
> the original standard also got dropped in the change, that seems like a
> somewhat retrogressive step.
>
> While I can see that if everyone was using 3.5mm perhaps it made sense for
> the standard to reflect that, 3.5mm is alos used for audio input/output on
> a gazillion devices and people are absolutely bound to try connecting it,
> just to see if it works. 2.5mm is less common and prevents that to some
> extent.
>

The specified cable for TRS MIDI is shielded twisted pair, why it kind of
makes sense to specify a non-audio-standard connector for it, so that
people don't just take any eurorack cable. (Who would do such a thing?) .-)

https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/trs-specification-adopted-and-released

There are some interesting passages in the standard actually, it can be
downloaded with illustrations on the page above, but some of it in plain
text:


"Details:

(1) Pin-out Correspondence:
The following TRS to DIN drawing illustrates the wiring for a female TRS
connector in comparison to a
female MIDI-DIN connector (it is expected that devices will use female TRS
connectors).

Notes:
The MIDI In/Out circuitry should be implemented in accordance with the MIDI
1.0 Electrical
Specification Update [2014] (MMA/AMEI CA-033).
Because TRS connectors are often used for other (non-MIDI) purposes,
manufacturers are strongly
advised to add protection circuitry (e.g. to handle the case when a
DC-coupled headphone driver is
connected to a MIDI output).

(2) Connector Size:
2.5mm TRS connectors are recommended.

Note: If any other connector size is used, the remainder of this
specification still applies.

(3) Cables
All cables shall use shielded twisted pairs, as defined for a MIDI cable.
The following drawing shows how to implement a male TRS to female MIDI-DIN
adapter cable:

Notes:
Adapter cables shall have a maximum length of 2 meters.
Direct connection between two TRS-equipped devices using cables designed
for use with audio
equipment is not acceptable because the wires are not twisted pair and are
typically individually
shielded."
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From jason at redfish.net  Wed Jan 26 22:36:23 2022
From: jason at redfish.net (Jason Proctor)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:36:23 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
Message-ID: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting --

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Wed Jan 26 23:38:41 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 22:38:41 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b69923cfe05e406a83604913936fb915@futurehorizons.com>

I bought one of their original Daisy modules to try but it was plagued with processor switching noise issues.  This looks a lot larger so hopefully will be better.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jason Proctor
Sent: 26 January 2022 21:36
To: synth-diy mailing list
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

Interesting --

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
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From electrocontinuo at gmail.com  Wed Jan 26 23:49:38 2022
From: electrocontinuo at gmail.com (Peter Pearson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 17:49:38 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to know where they bought STM32s with the global chip shortage and
all that...

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:

> Interesting --
>
>
> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Wed Jan 26 23:53:42 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 22:53:42 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>

After the AKM fab fire the guy there told me they had several reels of CODECs in stock, so presumably they did the same with STM32s.   Wish I?d bought a reel or two now.

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Peter Pearson via Synth-diy
Sent: 26 January 2022 22:50
To: Jason Proctor
Cc: synth-diy mailing list
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

I'd like to know where they bought STM32s with the global chip shortage and all that...

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net<mailto:jason at redfish.net>> wrote:
Interesting --

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
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From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 00:17:44 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:17:44 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>

Yep. Any STM32 parts more advanced than the low end of the G0/L0 
families are basically unobtainium for the foreseeable future. We've had 
F7 parts on back order for the last 9mo with no firm notice of when 
they'll be available. Unless you're a high volume customer with firm POs 
at this point you're sucking vacuum or subsisting on inventory you had 
in Q1/2021.

Any new MCU-based designs these days are migrating to alternatives. 
RP2040 parts are now available for < $1 in quantity direct from RPi 
Foundation, and ESP32 variants are cheap and in-stock at all the major 
distys. Definitely worth considering.

Eric

On 1/26/22 15:53, Mike Bryant wrote:
> After the AKM fab fire the guy there told me they had several reels of 
> CODECs in stock, so presumably they did the same with STM32s.?? Wish I?d 
> bought a reel or two now.
> 
> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *Peter Pearson via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* 26 January 2022 22:50
> *To:* Jason Proctor
> *Cc:* synth-diy mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> I'd like to know where they bought STM32s with the global chip shortage 
> and all that...
> 
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net 
> <mailto:jason at redfish.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Interesting --
> 
>     https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
>     <https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/>


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 00:58:48 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 23:58:48 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>

That's exactly what I'm doing at this very moment.  Replacing 1 H750 and 4 F730s with 21 RP2040s.  Absolute nightmare of a chip - very poor support from RPT compared with STM - but slowly getting there more thanks to people on their forum than RPT staff.  And have bought a half reel in advance to make sure I don't get shafted again.

For anybody else thinking of going this route, be warned that the SDK and the support programs to generate code for the PIOs have been written around gcc features and so it's currently impossible to use a modern compiler like Clang.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
Sent: 26 January 2022 23:18
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

Yep. Any STM32 parts more advanced than the low end of the G0/L0 families are basically unobtainium for the foreseeable future. We've had
F7 parts on back order for the last 9mo with no firm notice of when they'll be available. Unless you're a high volume customer with firm POs at this point you're sucking vacuum or subsisting on inventory you had in Q1/2021.

Any new MCU-based designs these days are migrating to alternatives. 
RP2040 parts are now available for < $1 in quantity direct from RPi Foundation, and ESP32 variants are cheap and in-stock at all the major distys. Definitely worth considering.

Eric

On 1/26/22 15:53, Mike Bryant wrote:
> After the AKM fab fire the guy there told me they had several reels of 
> CODECs in stock, so presumably they did the same with STM32s.?? Wish 
> I?d bought a reel or two now.
> 
> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf 
> Of *Peter Pearson via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* 26 January 2022 22:50
> *To:* Jason Proctor
> *Cc:* synth-diy mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> I'd like to know where they bought STM32s with the global chip 
> shortage and all that...
> 
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net 
> <mailto:jason at redfish.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Interesting --
> 
>     https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
>     
> <https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-
> platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/>
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 01:29:52 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 17:29:52 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>

I've done one port to RP2040 so far and migrating is definitely a shock 
to the system. A few things I've noticed:

* The SDK has a lot of slick features based on cmake that tend to 
obscure what's going on under the hood unless you're pretty advanced in 
cmake. Digging down into the scripting takes time to absorb all the details.

* The SDK libraries cover a lot of basic stuff you'd want to do, but not 
everything that STM32 HAL does. Be prepared to "roll your own".

* Dual core sounds like a very cool thing, and can be useful. Be 
prepared to learn a lot of new things about resource sharing and coherency.

* The RP2040 chip has some nice hardware things going on, but they're 
rather orthogonal to a lot of the stuff you may be used to on other 
architectures. The PIO is fun to mess with, but has some limitations 
that can sneak up on you. Don't assume you can route any signal to any 
pin. Side pin signals need to be contiguous!

* The RP2040 ADC is a lot noisier than anything on STM32. They claim 
12-bits resolution and 10-bit accuracy. Expect less unless you're doing 
a lot of integration.

* The XIP flash interface has cache, but you'll find it's pretty 
limited. Be prepared to move a lot of critical code into on-chip SRAM. 
Dual core code will eat that cache up a lot faster too.

* The 2nd-stage bootloader that RPi provides for the PICO devboard 
assumes some unique things about the flash chip it's talking to. If you 
don't have a genuine Winbond flash chip you'll need to revert to a 
generic 2nd-stage that's got somewhat lower performance, or write your own.

I'm sure there are other issues, but those are the big ones I've hit so far.

Eric

On 1/26/22 16:58, Mike Bryant wrote:
> That's exactly what I'm doing at this very moment.  Replacing 1 H750 and 4 F730s with 21 RP2040s.  Absolute nightmare of a chip - very poor support from RPT compared with STM - but slowly getting there more thanks to people on their forum than RPT staff.  And have bought a half reel in advance to make sure I don't get shafted again.
> 
> For anybody else thinking of going this route, be warned that the SDK and the support programs to generate code for the PIOs have been written around gcc features and so it's currently impossible to use a modern compiler like Clang.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> Sent: 26 January 2022 23:18
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> Yep. Any STM32 parts more advanced than the low end of the G0/L0 families are basically unobtainium for the foreseeable future. We've had
> F7 parts on back order for the last 9mo with no firm notice of when they'll be available. Unless you're a high volume customer with firm POs at this point you're sucking vacuum or subsisting on inventory you had in Q1/2021.
> 
> Any new MCU-based designs these days are migrating to alternatives.
> RP2040 parts are now available for < $1 in quantity direct from RPi Foundation, and ESP32 variants are cheap and in-stock at all the major distys. Definitely worth considering.
> 
> Eric
> 
> On 1/26/22 15:53, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> After the AKM fab fire the guy there told me they had several reels of
>> CODECs in stock, so presumably they did the same with STM32s.?? Wish
>> I?d bought a reel or two now.
>>
>> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf
>> Of *Peter Pearson via Synth-diy
>> *Sent:* 26 January 2022 22:50
>> *To:* Jason Proctor
>> *Cc:* synth-diy mailing list
>> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>>
>> I'd like to know where they bought STM32s with the global chip
>> shortage and all that...
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net
>> <mailto:jason at redfish.net>> wrote:
>>
>>      Interesting --
>>
>>      https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
>>      
>> <https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-
>> platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 



From jschwich53 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 27 04:43:38 2022
From: jschwich53 at comcast.net (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 19:43:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1089438083.41976.1643255018630@connect.xfinity.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From barryklein at cox.net  Thu Jan 27 05:13:38 2022
From: barryklein at cox.net (Barry Klein)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 20:13:38 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <79945B5E-F565-48AD-961E-0A5A20697272@cox.net>

I got the original Daisy Seed when it was debuted at NAMM 2 or 3 years ago(?) but was incapable of getting it up and running without my son?s help (and he struggled a bit beforehand).  I really wanted to have fun learning something with it but it sits on my desk blinking it?s hello world blink.  This new Daisy looks even cooler as there should be lots of support to run the STM32 - another wannado for me. I wanted to get the right STM platform to run Audioweaver but I also had laptops too old to run it so things stalled. I suspect though I need to return to the Seed and get competent with it before spending more money on toys.  It sure helps if you have classmates or friends that share your interest in these things.  My son gave me a Teenage Engineering pocket operator thing and I could not figure the thing out. Don?t know how anyone on their own could. More dedication than I have! Has to be word of mouth for learning these things. The Seed is similar. Need handholding to get anywhere with it. The support videos progress very fast - have to slow them down to 50% speed to try and follow them. So yes you can do great things with these things but you have to know/learn how.

Barry


> On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:
> 
> ?Interesting --
> 
> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From btremblay at me.com  Thu Jan 27 05:42:10 2022
From: btremblay at me.com (Benjamin Tremblay)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 23:42:10 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <79945B5E-F565-48AD-961E-0A5A20697272@cox.net>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <79945B5E-F565-48AD-961E-0A5A20697272@cox.net>
Message-ID: <A4B3BAE8-8B78-4445-9ABE-544C6B81AB72@me.com>

Is there anything I get from this I would not get from a Teensy 4? 


> On Jan 26, 2022, at 11:13 PM, Barry Klein via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I got the original Daisy Seed when it was debuted at NAMM 2 or 3 years ago(?) but was incapable of getting it up and running without my son?s help (and he struggled a bit beforehand).  I really wanted to have fun learning something with it but it sits on my desk blinking it?s hello world blink.  This new Daisy looks even cooler as there should be lots of support to run the STM32 - another wannado for me. I wanted to get the right STM platform to run Audioweaver but I also had laptops too old to run it so things stalled. I suspect though I need to return to the Seed and get competent with it before spending more money on toys.  It sure helps if you have classmates or friends that share your interest in these things.  My son gave me a Teenage Engineering pocket operator thing and I could not figure the thing out. Don?t know how anyone on their own could. More dedication than I have! Has to be word of mouth for learning these things. The Seed is similar. Need handholding to get anywhere with it. The support videos progress very fast - have to slow them down to 50% speed to try and follow them. So yes you can do great things with these things but you have to know/learn how.
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Interesting --
>> 
>> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 06:07:49 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 22:07:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <A4B3BAE8-8B78-4445-9ABE-544C6B81AB72@me.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <79945B5E-F565-48AD-961E-0A5A20697272@cox.net>
 <A4B3BAE8-8B78-4445-9ABE-544C6B81AB72@me.com>
Message-ID: <00f1e90f55a1f3bcdaa25e8dc825686b2c8ab011.camel@gmail.com>

The STM32H7 CPU used in the Daisy has similar capabilities to the
iMXRT10 in the Teensy 4, but the Daisy includes the audio codec and
64MB of SDRAM, while the Teensy has no SDRAM and a codec is available
using an add-on board. The STM32H7 runs a bit slower, but has on-chip
flash while the iMX requires external flash so there may be some
differences in memory bandwidth that fall in favor of the STM32H7.

On the software side, the Teensy has a very extensive and easy-to-use
audio library. Daisy also has an audio library but I have no experience
with that. Both claim compatibility with a wide range of development
tools including the widely-known Arduino ecosystem.

It's probably close to a wash, but if you need a whole lot of temporary
storage for audio buffers then the Daisy is probably a better bet.

Eric

On Wed, 2022-01-26 at 23:42 -0500, Benjamin Tremblay via Synth-diy
wrote:
> Is there anything I get from this I would not get from a Teensy 4? 
> 
> 
> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 11:13 PM, Barry Klein via Synth-diy
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > 
> > I got the original Daisy Seed when it was debuted at NAMM 2 or 3
> > years ago(?) but was incapable of getting it up and running without
> > my son?s help (and he struggled a bit beforehand).? I really wanted
> > to have fun learning something with it but it sits on my desk
> > blinking it?s hello world blink.? This new Daisy looks even cooler
> > as there should be lots of support to run the STM32 - another
> > wannado for me. I wanted to get the right STM platform to run
> > Audioweaver but I also had laptops too old to run it so things
> > stalled. I suspect though I need to return to the Seed and get
> > competent with it before spending more money on toys.? It sure
> > helps if you have classmates or friends that share your interest in
> > these things.? My son gave me a Teenage Engineering pocket operator
> > thing and I could not figure the thing out. Don?t know how anyone
> > on their own could. More dedication than I have! Has to be word of
> > mouth for learning these things. The Seed is similar. Need
> > handholding to get anywhere with it. The support videos progress
> > very fast - have to slow them down to 50% speed to try and follow
> > them. So yes you can do great things with these things but you have
> > to know/learn how.
> > 
> > Barry
> > 
> > 
> > > On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > ?Interesting --
> > > 
> > > https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From jarander at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 09:30:44 2022
From: jarander at gmail.com (Jared Anderson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:30:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <b69923cfe05e406a83604913936fb915@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b69923cfe05e406a83604913936fb915@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAEDQ4irfmgHwaXd12rBkg_KJ2F9wbTEN9LFpSCbJ3TmMk28D8A@mail.gmail.com>

I too am dismayed by the ~1kHz noise on the Daisy.  I'm not sure if it's
the Daisy Seed or Daisy Pod that I'm using that's causing the problem.

In any case, there is some kind of explanation and things to try described
here:

https://forum.electro-smith.com/t/questions-about-digital-noise-and-grounding/432/10

I've got some small Recom 5V-5V DC-DC on order to try out their solution,
but I'm not convinced it's going to help at all.

Would be interested to know what those more knowledgeable on the subject
have to say about it.
Can this be fixed or should I try and find some other small dsp platform?

Cheers,
Jared

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 at 23:42, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> I bought one of their original Daisy modules to try but it was plagued
> with processor switching noise issues.  This looks a lot larger so
> hopefully will be better.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> Jason Proctor
> Sent: 26 January 2022 21:36
> To: synth-diy mailing list
> Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>
> Interesting --
>
>
> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 10:30:49 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:30:49 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAEDQ4irfmgHwaXd12rBkg_KJ2F9wbTEN9LFpSCbJ3TmMk28D8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b69923cfe05e406a83604913936fb915@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAEDQ4irfmgHwaXd12rBkg_KJ2F9wbTEN9LFpSCbJ3TmMk28D8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6747082808804f1896ccc5d79e476128@futurehorizons.com>

I converted the code to run at a faster loop time, breaking up the longer sections into smaller ones that were run in successive timeslots, but it still wasn?t perfect so I gave up on it.   I made various comments on their forum on what they could do to improve the design but they never did.

From: Jared Anderson [mailto:jarander at gmail.com]
Sent: 27 January 2022 08:31
To: synth-diy mailing list
Cc: Jason Proctor; Mike Bryant
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

I too am dismayed by the ~1kHz noise on the Daisy.  I'm not sure if it's the Daisy Seed or Daisy Pod that I'm using that's causing the problem.

In any case, there is some kind of explanation and things to try described here:

https://forum.electro-smith.com/t/questions-about-digital-noise-and-grounding/432/10

I've got some small Recom 5V-5V DC-DC on order to try out their solution, but I'm not convinced it's going to help at all.

Would be interested to know what those more knowledgeable on the subject have to say about it.
Can this be fixed or should I try and find some other small dsp platform?

Cheers,
Jared

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 at 23:42, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
I bought one of their original Daisy modules to try but it was plagued with processor switching noise issues.  This looks a lot larger so hopefully will be better.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Jason Proctor
Sent: 26 January 2022 21:36
To: synth-diy mailing list
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

Interesting --

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 10:34:07 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:34:07 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <1089438083.41976.1643255018630@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <1089438083.41976.1643255018630@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <6e840c3dd7774239b618922a1569e069@futurehorizons.com>

Nope.

They deliberately don?t support Eclipse, or CMSIS, or any of the normal tools in an ARM development system.   NIH in extremis

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
Sent: 27 January 2022 03:44
To: Eric Brombaugh; Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

I'm pretty old school and can handle doing things turely bare metal but.

Stupid question, do they Eclipse for RP2040?

Thanks
Jay S.
On 01/26/2022 4:29 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:


I've done one port to RP2040 so far and migrating is definitely a shock
to the system. A few things I've noticed:

* The SDK has a lot of slick features based on cmake that tend to
obscure what's going on under the hood unless you're pretty advanced in
cmake. Digging down into the scripting takes time to absorb all the details.

* The SDK libraries cover a lot of basic stuff you'd want to do, but not
everything that STM32 HAL does. Be prepared to "roll your own".

* Dual core sounds like a very cool thing, and can be useful. Be
prepared to learn a lot of new things about resource sharing and coherency.

* The RP2040 chip has some nice hardware things going on, but they're
rather orthogonal to a lot of the stuff you may be used to on other
architectures. The PIO is fun to mess with, but has some limitations
that can sneak up on you. Don't assume you can route any signal to any
pin. Side pin signals need to be contiguous!

* The RP2040 ADC is a lot noisier than anything on STM32. They claim
12-bits resolution and 10-bit accuracy. Expect less unless you're doing
a lot of integration.

* The XIP flash interface has cache, but you'll find it's pretty
limited. Be prepared to move a lot of critical code into on-chip SRAM.
Dual core code will eat that cache up a lot faster too.

* The 2nd-stage bootloader that RPi provides for the PICO devboard
assumes some unique things about the flash chip it's talking to. If you
don't have a genuine Winbond flash chip you'll need to revert to a
generic 2nd-stage that's got somewhat lower performance, or write your own.

I'm sure there are other issues, but those are the big ones I've hit so far.

Eric

On 1/26/22 16:58, Mike Bryant wrote:
That's exactly what I'm doing at this very moment. Replacing 1 H750 and 4 F730s with 21 RP2040s. Absolute nightmare of a chip - very poor support from RPT compared with STM - but slowly getting there more thanks to people on their forum than RPT staff. And have bought a half reel in advance to make sure I don't get shafted again.

For anybody else thinking of going this route, be warned that the SDK and the support programs to generate code for the PIOs have been written around gcc features and so it's currently impossible to use a modern compiler like Clang.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
Sent: 26 January 2022 23:18
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

Yep. Any STM32 parts more advanced than the low end of the G0/L0 families are basically unobtainium for the foreseeable future. We've had
F7 parts on back order for the last 9mo with no firm notice of when they'll be available. Unless you're a high volume customer with firm POs at this point you're sucking vacuum or subsisting on inventory you had in Q1/2021.

Any new MCU-based designs these days are migrating to alternatives.
RP2040 parts are now available for < $1 in quantity direct from RPi Foundation, and ESP32 variants are cheap and in-stock at all the major distys. Definitely worth considering.

Eric

On 1/26/22 15:53, Mike Bryant wrote:
After the AKM fab fire the guy there told me they had several reels of
CODECs in stock, so presumably they did the same with STM32s.   Wish
I?d bought a reel or two now.

*From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] *On Behalf
Of *Peter Pearson via Synth-diy
*Sent:* 26 January 2022 22:50
*To:* Jason Proctor
*Cc:* synth-diy mailing list
*Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

I'd like to know where they bought STM32s with the global chip
shortage and all that...

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net<mailto:jason at redfish.net>
<mailto:jason at redfish.net<mailto:jason at redfish.net>>> wrote:

Interesting --

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/

<https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-
platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/>
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From mars at pingdynasty.com  Thu Jan 27 10:38:40 2022
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:38:40 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAEDQ4irfmgHwaXd12rBkg_KJ2F9wbTEN9LFpSCbJ3TmMk28D8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b69923cfe05e406a83604913936fb915@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAEDQ4irfmgHwaXd12rBkg_KJ2F9wbTEN9LFpSCbJ3TmMk28D8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a977f953-ae19-80cd-5494-63ea612805a9@pingdynasty.com>

I know they're using the SRAM kind of out of spec: it's a 1.8V part 
running at 3.3V (Alliance AS4C16M32MSA)

Could that be (a part of) the problem, or is it more likely to be a 
routing issue?


Martin


On 27/01/2022 09:30, Jared Anderson via Synth-diy wrote:
> I too am dismayed by the ~1kHz noise on the Daisy. I'm not sure if 
> it's the Daisy Seed or Daisy Pod that I'm using that's causing the 
> problem.
>
> In any case, there is some kind of explanation?and things to try 
> described here:
>
> https://forum.electro-smith.com/t/questions-about-digital-noise-and-grounding/432/10 
> <https://forum.electro-smith.com/t/questions-about-digital-noise-and-grounding/432/10>
>
> I've got some small Recom 5V-5V DC-DC on order to try out their 
> solution, but I'm not convinced it's going to help at all.
>
> Would be interested to know what those more knowledgeable on the 
> subject have to say about it.
> Can this be fixed or should I try and find some other small dsp platform?
>
> Cheers,
> Jared
>
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 at 23:42, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com 
> <mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
>
>     I bought one of their original Daisy modules to try but it was
>     plagued with processor switching noise issues.? This looks a lot
>     larger so hopefully will be better.
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org
>     <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Jason Proctor
>     Sent: 26 January 2022 21:36
>     To: synth-diy mailing list
>     Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>
>     Interesting --
>
>     https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
>     <https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Synth-diy mailing list
>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Synth-diy mailing list
>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
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>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 27 10:40:51 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:40:51 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <0401e57c-cefc-73dd-b12c-5ecec2aa2d97@go2.pl>

For that purpose I've got permanently connected 20k resistor between my 
test bench power supply black terminal (GND or negative whatever you 
call it) to Earth terminal. This way PSU lines are not floating on 
hundreds of volts whenever they want but are close to 0 while not 
causing short with PC chasis when I use for example a programmer. It was 
enough to keep my IDC3 in good condition for years, but when I took it 
home, where I use floating PSU (laptop brick feeding DC/DC) I have fried 
my ICD after 3 days :(

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-26 o?14:16, Mike Bryant pisze:
> Good idea.  Might stop people lifting the grounds on equipment they really shouldn't do so on !!
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
> Sent: 26 January 2022 12:12
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?
> 
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 10:41:49PM -0500, Mike Beauchamp wrote:
>> On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
>>> I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.
>>>
>>> I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.
>>
>> I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with a
>> custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?
>>
> 
> I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.
> 
> Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop currents to the point where they don't have an effect.
> 
> --
> Gordonjcp
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 27 10:49:45 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:49:45 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>

There are also optocouplers with dual LEDs in reverse, so polarity 
doesn't matter without hassle of adding diodes. For example APCL214, 
which I've used in my MIDI2CV converters. Not only it provided 
mistake-free wiring, but was also smaller than typical SOP5 optocoupler.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-26 o?20:04, Sean Ellis via Synth-diy pisze:
> Quite a few modules do it:
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf 
> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of Quincas 
> Moreira via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 January 2022 3:11 PM
> *To:* Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org>
> *Cc:* Synth DIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board 
> needs replacing ?
> Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both standards 
> for the input and has selectable output.
> I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously 
> limit the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny 
> these days? And yes, while the standard chose a smaller barrel, this was 
> indeed done too late when already all manufacturers are using 3.5mm. 
> They should have stuck to that and just chosen one polarity to be the 
> standard ?IMO.
> BTW I?ve been using 3.5mm trs MIDI for nearly a decade myself and have 
> never encountered a ground loop issue.
> 
> On Wed 26 Jan 2022 at 4:57 Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org 
> <mailto:mr at analogue.org>> wrote:
> 
>     <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
>     <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> skrev:
> 
>         Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up
>         standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
> 
> 
>     But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not
>     3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:
> 
>     3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the
>     manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose
>     the other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless
>     special cables/adapters are at hand.
> 
>     In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS
>     MIDI In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a
>     setting in the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS
>     MIDI Out. Has this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it
>     perhaps should be published as an official application note, a
>     suggested implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick
>     up. :-)
> 
>     /mr
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Synth-diy mailing list
>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
> 
> -- 
> QMA 	
> Quincas Moreira
> Director | QMA
> mobile: 5534988825 <tel:5534988825>
> site: quincasmoreira.com <http://quincasmoreira.com/>
> email: quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 10:51:44 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:51:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 1:33 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> I've done one port to RP2040 so far and migrating is definitely a shock
> to the system. A few things I've noticed:
>
> * The SDK libraries cover a lot of basic stuff you'd want to do, but not
> everything that STM32 HAL does. Be prepared to "roll your own".

Could you give some examples please?

> * The RP2040 ADC is a lot noisier than anything on STM32. They claim
> 12-bits resolution and 10-bit accuracy. Expect less unless you're doing
> a lot of integration.

How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?


From vladoman at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 10:52:32 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:52:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <a977f953-ae19-80cd-5494-63ea612805a9@pingdynasty.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b69923cfe05e406a83604913936fb915@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAEDQ4irfmgHwaXd12rBkg_KJ2F9wbTEN9LFpSCbJ3TmMk28D8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <a977f953-ae19-80cd-5494-63ea612805a9@pingdynasty.com>
Message-ID: <9613a48f-0dbd-2eb6-f2b4-156ba3f22a4a@gmail.com>

On 27.01.22 10:38, Martin Klang wrote:
> I know they're using the SRAM kind of out of spec: it's a 1.8V part
> running at 3.3V (Alliance AS4C16M32MSA

SDRAM, 64MB of SRAM would be nice and $$$ :)





From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 10:52:36 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:52:36 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <0401e57c-cefc-73dd-b12c-5ecec2aa2d97@go2.pl>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
 <0401e57c-cefc-73dd-b12c-5ecec2aa2d97@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_T2VGuCeP64_6AtbGWw3=5pPJZvnLk9LVHg4MwNQinow@mail.gmail.com>

Ahhh, that sucks.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>
> For that purpose I've got permanently connected 20k resistor between my
> test bench power supply black terminal (GND or negative whatever you
> call it) to Earth terminal. This way PSU lines are not floating on
> hundreds of volts whenever they want but are close to 0 while not
> causing short with PC chasis when I use for example a programmer. It was
> enough to keep my IDC3 in good condition for years, but when I took it
> home, where I use floating PSU (laptop brick feeding DC/DC) I have fried
> my ICD after 3 days :(
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-01-26 o 14:16, Mike Bryant pisze:
> > Good idea.  Might stop people lifting the grounds on equipment they really shouldn't do so on !!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
> > Sent: 26 January 2022 12:12
> > To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 10:41:49PM -0500, Mike Beauchamp wrote:
> >> On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
> >>> I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.
> >>>
> >>> I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.
> >>
> >> I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with a
> >> custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?
> >>
> >
> > I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.
> >
> > Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop currents to the point where they don't have an effect.
> >
> > --
> > Gordonjcp
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 27 10:59:47 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:59:47 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CAP92RBWnLZ2e-hoW4FJXj9svQV3jsV8kQu2ZXvkcjd4tizf3JA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <EB66B170-DECF-42B9-A8E4-E01487FD79B8@electricdruid.net>
 <CAP92RBWnLZ2e-hoW4FJXj9svQV3jsV8kQu2ZXvkcjd4tizf3JA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06593f1c-004c-9aac-c010-dd4f35a5ab20@go2.pl>

Max 2m on twisted pair sounds like it's 10Gbps transmission. ;)
Couple of years ago I've made a test with 200m cable (non twisted, 
non-shielded 4-wire control cable) running MIDI, and apart from delay 
and one small reflection step I couldn't find any issues. The waveform 
was still much steppier than what an optocoupler does with this.

Roman


W dniu 2022-01-26 o?20:38, Mattias Rickardsson pisze:
> "Details:
> 
> (1) Pin-out Correspondence:
> The following TRS to DIN drawing illustrates the wiring for a female TRS 
> connector in comparison to a
> female MIDI-DIN connector (it is expected that devices will use female 
> TRS connectors).
> 
> Notes:
> The MIDI In/Out circuitry should be implemented in accordance with the 
> MIDI 1.0 Electrical
> Specification Update [2014] (MMA/AMEI CA-033).
> Because TRS connectors are often used for other (non-MIDI) purposes, 
> manufacturers are strongly
> advised to add protection circuitry (e.g. to handle the case when a 
> DC-coupled headphone driver is
> connected to a MIDI output).
> 
> (2) Connector Size:
> 2.5mm TRS connectors are recommended.
> 
> Note: If any other connector size is used, the remainder of this 
> specification still applies.
> 
> (3) Cables
> All cables shall use shielded twisted pairs, as defined for a MIDI cable.
> The following drawing shows how to implement a male TRS to female 
> MIDI-DIN adapter cable:
> 
> Notes:
> Adapter cables shall have a maximum length of 2 meters.
> Direct connection between two TRS-equipped devices using cables designed 
> for use with audio
> equipment is not acceptable because the wires are not twisted pair and 
> are typically individually
> shielded."
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 27 11:12:29 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:12:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
 <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>
Message-ID: <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d51c0@go2.pl>

95% of my customers don't give a shit that all of the stuff was made 
personally by me, with passion and love, taking so much time that could 
be otherwise spent on drinking beer and crowling facebook.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-22 o?04:13, Mike Beauchamp pisze:
> 
> At the end of the day, you're making some cool shit.. and your customers 
> have something to be really proud of, knowing the work that went into 
> everything.
> 
> Mike


From tensiontype at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 27 11:36:36 2022
From: tensiontype at hotmail.com (Sean Ellis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:36 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <SI2PR06MB46386C171E0B8AA19324B42DB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

As an aside, with the circuit posted below could that midi input also be used for a gate input with correct protection? Seems like the diodes will do the job as long as it's a mono cable into stereo jack.

________________________________
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl>
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2022 10:49 AM
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

There are also optocouplers with dual LEDs in reverse, so polarity
doesn't matter without hassle of adding diodes. For example APCL214,
which I've used in my MIDI2CV converters. Not only it provided
mistake-free wiring, but was also smaller than typical SOP5 optocoupler.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-26 o 20:04, Sean Ellis via Synth-diy pisze:
> Quite a few modules do it:
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf
> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of Quincas
> Moreira via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 January 2022 3:11 PM
> *To:* Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org>
> *Cc:* Synth DIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board
> needs replacing ?
> Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both standards
> for the input and has selectable output.
> I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously
> limit the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny
> these days? And yes, while the standard chose a smaller barrel, this was
> indeed done too late when already all manufacturers are using 3.5mm.
> They should have stuck to that and just chosen one polarity to be the
> standard  IMO.
> BTW I?ve been using 3.5mm trs MIDI for nearly a decade myself and have
> never encountered a ground loop issue.
>
> On Wed 26 Jan 2022 at 4:57 Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org
> <mailto:mr at analogue.org>> wrote:
>
>     <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
>     <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> skrev:
>
>         Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up
>         standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
>
>
>     But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not
>     3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:
>
>     3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the
>     manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose
>     the other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless
>     special cables/adapters are at hand.
>
>     In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS
>     MIDI In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a
>     setting in the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS
>     MIDI Out. Has this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it
>     perhaps should be published as an official application note, a
>     suggested implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick
>     up. :-)
>
>     /mr
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Synth-diy mailing list
>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>
> --
> QMA
> Quincas Moreira
> Director | QMA
> mobile: 5534988825 <tel:5534988825>
> site: quincasmoreira.com <http://quincasmoreira.com/>
> email: quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
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From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Thu Jan 27 11:46:59 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:46:59 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <0401e57c-cefc-73dd-b12c-5ecec2aa2d97@go2.pl>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
 <0401e57c-cefc-73dd-b12c-5ecec2aa2d97@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <4b576c9896fb84fb788ea3d0b89a6316@richieburnett.co.uk>

Ouch!  Yes, Class-II devices like laptop chargers can output some pretty 
high voltages relative to earth/ground.  I was surprised only yesterday 
to find that the aluminium cladding on the back of my work Toshiba 
laptop's screen had 280 volts peak-to-peak on it relative to ground when 
the mains charger was plugged in!  I could always tell when the charger 
was plugged in by the feel just running my hand over the metal case.  It 
doesn't quite feel like an electric shock, just like it is 
buzzing/vibrating or as if it feels rough.  As soon as you unplug the 
charger it feels totally smooth when you run your hand over it.  Same 
thing with the touch dimming lamp at my bedside.

I can imagine how these voltages don't play nicely with modern 
low-voltage logic and dev kits though.  To be honest I'm in the habit of 
always unplugging the laptop charger to reduce noise before I connect 
any sig gen or scope probes anyway, so that's probably why I haven't 
blown anything up yet ;-)  Class-I and Class-II appliances don't play 
nicely together!

-Richie,



On 2022-01-27 09:40, Roman Sowa wrote:
> For that purpose I've got permanently connected 20k resistor between
> my test bench power supply black terminal (GND or negative whatever
> you call it) to Earth terminal. This way PSU lines are not floating on
> hundreds of volts whenever they want but are close to 0 while not
> causing short with PC chasis when I use for example a programmer. It
> was enough to keep my IDC3 in good condition for years, but when I
> took it home, where I use floating PSU (laptop brick feeding DC/DC) I
> have fried my ICD after 3 days :(
> 
> Roman
> 
> W dniu 2022-01-26 o?14:16, Mike Bryant pisze:
>> Good idea.  Might stop people lifting the grounds on equipment they 
>> really shouldn't do so on !!
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Gordonjcp
>> Sent: 26 January 2022 12:12
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board 
>> needs replacing ?
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 10:41:49PM -0500, Mike Beauchamp wrote:
>>> On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
>>>> I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that 
>>>> it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically 
>>>> isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are 
>>>> supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that 
>>>> another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's 
>>>> no longer isolated.
>>>> 
>>>> I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each 
>>>> other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* 
>>>> easier to ensure against ground loops.
>>> 
>>> I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with 
>>> a
>>> custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?
>>> 
>> 
>> I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable 
>> with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.
>> 
>> Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms 
>> if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite 
>> impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop 
>> currents to the point where they don't have an effect.
>> 
>> --
>> Gordonjcp
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From mars at pingdynasty.com  Thu Jan 27 11:52:19 2022
From: mars at pingdynasty.com (Martin Klang)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:52:19 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <9613a48f-0dbd-2eb6-f2b4-156ba3f22a4a@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b69923cfe05e406a83604913936fb915@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAEDQ4irfmgHwaXd12rBkg_KJ2F9wbTEN9LFpSCbJ3TmMk28D8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <a977f953-ae19-80cd-5494-63ea612805a9@pingdynasty.com>
 <9613a48f-0dbd-2eb6-f2b4-156ba3f22a4a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d40c6b3c-bf0b-6609-3b85-77fb566e409d@pingdynasty.com>

On 27/01/2022 10:52, Vladimir Pantelic via Synth-diy wrote:
> On 27.01.22 10:38, Martin Klang wrote:
>> I know they're using the SRAM kind of out of spec: it's a 1.8V part
>> running at 3.3V (Alliance AS4C16M32MSA
> SDRAM, 64MB of SRAM would be nice and $$$ :)

Yes correct, my mistake! The MCU does have 1Mb onboard SRAM though, 
which is nice and fast, while the SDRAM is a bit of a performance 
bottleneck.


On 27/01/2022 06:07, Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy wrote:
> The STM32H7 runs a bit slower, but has on-chip
> flash while the iMX requires external flash so there may be some
> differences in memory bandwidth that fall in favor of the STM32H7.

I believe Daisy uses the H750 which has only one sector of 128kB flash. 
Typically you'd put the bootloader there and load the firmware into SRAM 
(not SDRAM this time!) from somewhere else. You can also XIP from 
external flash (eXecute In Place) ie run the firmware directly from a 
memory-mapped QSPI flash, but performance is **horrible**. All those 
lovely CPU cycles wasted in wait states!


Martin



From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 27 11:55:52 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:55:52 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <SI2PR06MB46386C171E0B8AA19324B42DB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
 <SI2PR06MB46386C171E0B8AA19324B42DB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <134a39f7-507b-6c45-1f06-b70292541e22@go2.pl>

Optocouplers are commonly used in inputs of industrial controllers of 
any kind.
At least they were for decades. Not so much anymore when everything is 
going ethernet

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-27 o?11:36, Sean Ellis pisze:
> As an aside, with the circuit posted below could that midi input also be 
> used for a gate input with correct protection? Seems like the diodes 
> will do the job as long as it's a mono cable into stereo jack.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of Roman 
> Sowa <modular at go2.pl>
> *Sent:* Thursday, 27 January 2022 10:49 AM
> *To:* synth-diy at synth-diy.org <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board 
> needs replacing ?
> There are also optocouplers with dual LEDs in reverse, so polarity
> doesn't matter without hassle of adding diodes. For example APCL214,
> which I've used in my MIDI2CV converters. Not only it provided
> mistake-free wiring, but was also smaller than typical SOP5 optocoupler.
> 
> Roman
> 
> W dniu 2022-01-26 o?20:04, Sean Ellis via Synth-diy pisze:
>> Quite a few modules do it:
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf 
> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf> 
> 
>> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf 
> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf>>
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of Quincas 
>> Moreira via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 January 2022 3:11 PM
>> *To:* Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org>
>> *Cc:* Synth DIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board 
>> needs replacing ?
>> Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both standards 
>> for the input and has selectable output.
>> I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously 
>> limit the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny 
>> these days? And yes, while the standard chose a smaller barrel, this was 
>> indeed done too late when already all manufacturers are using 3.5mm. 
>> They should have stuck to that and just chosen one polarity to be the 
>> standard ?IMO.
>> BTW I?ve been using 3.5mm trs MIDI for nearly a decade myself and have 
>> never encountered a ground loop issue.
>> 
>> On Wed 26 Jan 2022 at 4:57 Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org 
>> <mailto:mr at analogue.org <mailto:mr at analogue.org>>> wrote:
>> 
>>???? <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
>>???? <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com 
> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>>> skrev:
>> 
>>???????? Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up
>>???????? standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
>> 
>> 
>>???? But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not
>>???? 3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:
>> 
>>???? 3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the
>>???? manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose
>>???? the other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless
>>???? special cables/adapters are at hand.
>> 
>>???? In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS
>>???? MIDI In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a
>>???? setting in the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS
>>???? MIDI Out. Has this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it
>>???? perhaps should be published as an official application note, a
>>???? suggested implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick
>>???? up. :-)
>> 
>>???? /mr
>> 
>>???? _______________________________________________
>>???? Synth-diy mailing list
>>???? Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
>>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
> <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>???? <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
> <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>>
>>???? Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>???? <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>>
>> 
>> -- 
>> QMA    
>> Quincas Moreira
>> Director | QMA
>> mobile: 5534988825 <tel:5534988825>
>> site: quincasmoreira.com <http://quincasmoreira.com/ <http://quincasmoreira.com/>>
>> email: quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
> <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy 
> <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 27 11:59:34 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:59:34 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <d4531100da1620b33de5f367c645fe02@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
 <d4531100da1620b33de5f367c645fe02@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <c2396432-e598-9130-3f57-1ad0dd67a3b3@go2.pl>

100nF between cable shield (pin 2) and device GND is now in MIDI DIN 
hardware specs, I guess for 8 years or so. Can't recall a word 
"obligatory" in there, but it probably is.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-26 o?16:30, rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk pisze:
> That's a good point.
> 
> Often you can solve problems like this by connecting the shield to 
> ground via a 100nF capacitor and 1Meg resistor in parallel (at one or 
> both ends.)? The impedance of the parallel combination is low for 
> high-frequency signals (and most noise that has come through the air 
> before coupling onto your cable is high-frequency in nature,) and 
> conversely the impedance is nice and high for low-frequency signals 
> (like 50Hz "hum" currents due to earth loops,) so not much current flows 
> at these low frequencies.? The 1Meg resistor prevents static build up 
> across the 100nF capacitor, so it at least tries to keep them with the 
> same DC potential if one of the bits of kit is "floating" relative to 
> the other.
> 
> -Richie,
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 12:02:43 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:02:43 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <134a39f7-507b-6c45-1f06-b70292541e22@go2.pl>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
 <SI2PR06MB46386C171E0B8AA19324B42DB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <134a39f7-507b-6c45-1f06-b70292541e22@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <7d94d81f115d493e95b040dcf4a5c14e@futurehorizons.com>

An optical fibre is really an optocoupler of sorts.  Don't think they'll be going out of fashion anytime soon :-)

But yes one does see more wired Ethernet nowadays.  The transformers give reasonable isolation but not as good as opto.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
Sent: 27 January 2022 10:56
To: Sean Ellis; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

Optocouplers are commonly used in inputs of industrial controllers of any kind.
At least they were for decades. Not so much anymore when everything is going ethernet

Roman



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 12:03:56 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:03:56 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <c2396432-e598-9130-3f57-1ad0dd67a3b3@go2.pl>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
 <d4531100da1620b33de5f367c645fe02@richieburnett.co.uk>
 <c2396432-e598-9130-3f57-1ad0dd67a3b3@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <fe925ac11dce4d3f9fda5ec7094bf5a8@futurehorizons.com>

About 20 years actually :-)   But they don't seem to want to make anything that helps EMI obligatory for some reason so it's just 'recommended'.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
Sent: 27 January 2022 11:00
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

100nF between cable shield (pin 2) and device GND is now in MIDI DIN hardware specs, I guess for 8 years or so. Can't recall a word "obligatory" in there, but it probably is.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-26 o?16:30, rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk pisze:
> That's a good point.
> 
> Often you can solve problems like this by connecting the shield to 
> ground via a 100nF capacitor and 1Meg resistor in parallel (at one or 
> both ends.)? The impedance of the parallel combination is low for 
> high-frequency signals (and most noise that has come through the air 
> before coupling onto your cable is high-frequency in nature,) and 
> conversely the impedance is nice and high for low-frequency signals 
> (like 50Hz "hum" currents due to earth loops,) so not much current 
> flows at these low frequencies.? The 1Meg resistor prevents static 
> build up across the 100nF capacitor, so it at least tries to keep them 
> with the same DC potential if one of the bits of kit is "floating" 
> relative to the other.
> 
> -Richie,
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 12:16:52 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:16:52 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0a5e17e0d02b4f63b2b449eb6101f06c@futurehorizons.com>


Don't even think of using the RP2040 to digitise or generate audio.   The ADCs are rubbish and they've now downgraded the spec to something like 8.9 bits.  They just say some of the capacitors are the wrong value, but I wonder if they made the usual beginners mistake of calculating the capacitance between two metal layers, but not the capacitance to the rest of the chip.

It does have a lot of PWMs but they are all true PWMs and don't have the PDM mode one usually sees (with the counter lines to the comparator swapped around) for generating reasonable quality audio.

As for the SDK, it's just basic setting functions.  There are quite a few examples of how to use it for some things like the I2C master, but no I2C slave.
The USB just borrows the whole TinyUSB which doesn't support MIDI hosts, and has limitations in other host modes.  Okay for making a HID device though.
Also the SPI interface on the chip is borked - it won't even communicate with the larger Raspberry Pis !.

The one nice thing it has is the two PIOs which I think they did obviously spend a lot of time on.  These allow you to roll your own interfaces and I've implemented a 120Mbps drop and insert ring network using them.  It would be great to see these on future STM32s.

Another bad thing is the clocking.  Everything is synced to the crystal.  You can replace this with an external sourced clock, but it's impossible to handle situations where you need two independent clocks, such as USB and studioclock or SPDIF in.

So in the end it's a hobbyist's chip, but at the moment it's one of the few games in town.  How they managed to secure enough slots at TSMC I've no idea, but they can supply MCUs and STM & NXP can't.




-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: 27 January 2022 09:52
To: Eric Brombaugh
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 1:33 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> I've done one port to RP2040 so far and migrating is definitely a 
> shock to the system. A few things I've noticed:
>
> * The SDK libraries cover a lot of basic stuff you'd want to do, but 
> not everything that STM32 HAL does. Be prepared to "roll your own".

Could you give some examples please?

> * The RP2040 ADC is a lot noisier than anything on STM32. They claim 
> 12-bits resolution and 10-bit accuracy. Expect less unless you're 
> doing a lot of integration.

How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 12:21:15 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:21:15 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d51c0@go2.pl>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
 <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d51c0@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <0025ce20a9b544d59e31885f5d6ae17d@futurehorizons.com>

Actually Roman looking at your website I got the impression your customers do appreciate your range of products which solve their often unique problems.  

I'd love people to know what I've designed but as a contract designer I'm under strict and everlasting NDAs.  All I can do is give hints where you might see my stuff.   

Which is one reason I'm aiming to launch my own brand once chippagedon is over.



-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
Sent: 27 January 2022 10:12
To: Mike Beauchamp; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

95% of my customers don't give a shit that all of the stuff was made personally by me, with passion and love, taking so much time that could be otherwise spent on drinking beer and crowling facebook.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-22 o?04:13, Mike Beauchamp pisze:
> 
> At the end of the day, you're making some cool shit.. and your 
> customers have something to be really proud of, knowing the work that 
> went into everything.
> 
> Mike
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From tensiontype at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 27 13:08:24 2022
From: tensiontype at hotmail.com (Sean Ellis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 12:08:24 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <134a39f7-507b-6c45-1f06-b70292541e22@go2.pl>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
 <SI2PR06MB46386C171E0B8AA19324B42DB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <134a39f7-507b-6c45-1f06-b70292541e22@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <SI2PR06MB463849E8892FB1D955AE532EB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Let me rephrase: in the circuit as shown will the MCU will get a signal no matter if it's a midi cable or a gate signal on a mono cable? Just seems like it would be easy to make a dual use input.

________________________________
From: Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl>
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2022 11:55 AM
To: Sean Ellis <tensiontype at hotmail.com>; synth-diy at synth-diy.org <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?

Optocouplers are commonly used in inputs of industrial controllers of
any kind.
At least they were for decades. Not so much anymore when everything is
going ethernet

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-27 o 11:36, Sean Ellis pisze:
> As an aside, with the circuit posted below could that midi input also be
> used for a gate input with correct protection? Seems like the diodes
> will do the job as long as it's a mono cable into stereo jack.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of Roman
> Sowa <modular at go2.pl>
> *Sent:* Thursday, 27 January 2022 10:49 AM
> *To:* synth-diy at synth-diy.org <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board
> needs replacing ?
> There are also optocouplers with dual LEDs in reverse, so polarity
> doesn't matter without hassle of adding diodes. For example APCL214,
> which I've used in my MIDI2CV converters. Not only it provided
> mistake-free wiring, but was also smaller than typical SOP5 optocoupler.
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-01-26 o 20:04, Sean Ellis via Synth-diy pisze:
>> Quite a few modules do it:
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf
> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf>
>
>> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf
> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of Quincas
>> Moreira via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 January 2022 3:11 PM
>> *To:* Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org>
>> *Cc:* Synth DIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board
>> needs replacing ?
>> Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both standards
>> for the input and has selectable output.
>> I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously
>> limit the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny
>> these days? And yes, while the standard chose a smaller barrel, this was
>> indeed done too late when already all manufacturers are using 3.5mm.
>> They should have stuck to that and just chosen one polarity to be the
>> standard  IMO.
>> BTW I?ve been using 3.5mm trs MIDI for nearly a decade myself and have
>> never encountered a ground loop issue.
>>
>> On Wed 26 Jan 2022 at 4:57 Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org
>> <mailto:mr at analogue.org <mailto:mr at analogue.org>>> wrote:
>>
>>     <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
>>     <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>>> skrev:
>>
>>         Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up
>>         standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
>>
>>
>>     But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not
>>     3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:
>>
>>     3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the
>>     manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose
>>     the other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless
>>     special cables/adapters are at hand.
>>
>>     In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS
>>     MIDI In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a
>>     setting in the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS
>>     MIDI Out. Has this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it
>>     perhaps should be published as an official application note, a
>>     suggested implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick
>>     up. :-)
>>
>>     /mr
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Synth-diy mailing list
>>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
>>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>>
>>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>>
>>
>> --
>> QMA
>> Quincas Moreira
>> Director | QMA
>> mobile: 5534988825 <tel:5534988825>
>> site: quincasmoreira.com <http://quincasmoreira.com/ <http://quincasmoreira.com/>>
>> email: quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 13:25:05 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 12:25:05 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <SI2PR06MB463849E8892FB1D955AE532EB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
 <SI2PR06MB46386C171E0B8AA19324B42DB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <134a39f7-507b-6c45-1f06-b70292541e22@go2.pl>
 <SI2PR06MB463849E8892FB1D955AE532EB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+OUaj8-601G4KzO7kbz2FES+hk98qiaPmmYLsOdA7r8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 12:10, Sean Ellis via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Let me rephrase: in the circuit as shown will the MCU will get a signal no matter if it's a midi cable or a gate signal on a mono cable? Just seems like it would be easy to make a dual use input.
>

> >> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf

Yes.... BUT... the gate signal source must limit the current to about
5 mA just as a MIDI transmitter would (e.g. +5V and two 220R
resistors).

So, you can't just feed it any old gate signal.

And some way to tell the micro that the signal on the RXD pin is
either MIDI _or_ Gate.

Neil


From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 27 13:48:21 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:48:21 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMx+OUaj8-601G4KzO7kbz2FES+hk98qiaPmmYLsOdA7r8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
 <SI2PR06MB46386C171E0B8AA19324B42DB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <134a39f7-507b-6c45-1f06-b70292541e22@go2.pl>
 <SI2PR06MB463849E8892FB1D955AE532EB3219@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACZGMx+OUaj8-601G4KzO7kbz2FES+hk98qiaPmmYLsOdA7r8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf6261c8-58e8-0cc9-ef80-b985156997a3@go2.pl>

But you can protect the input if you wanted to. Typicaly optos can take 
up to 50mA, but limiting to, say 20mA can be easily done with splitting 
this 220ohm resistor in half and putting 3V3 zener from there to GND.

As for detecting if it is MIDI or gate - if the pulse is longer than 
288us, let's say 400us as safe threshold, then treat it as GATE. And the 
other way around, if it was gate before, and then it sees all pulses 
shorteer than 400us a few times, then switch logic and treat it as MIDI.

I'm sure this would encourage a few people to put up a video why a 
module with such solution doesn't work, feeding it with very short 
pulses, but for normal use this should work.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-27 o?13:25, Neil Johnson pisze:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 12:10, Sean Ellis via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Let me rephrase: in the circuit as shown will the MCU will get a signal no matter if it's a midi cable or a gate signal on a mono cable? Just seems like it would be easy to make a dual use input.
>>
> 
>>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf
> 
> Yes.... BUT... the gate signal source must limit the current to about
> 5 mA just as a MIDI transmitter would (e.g. +5V and two 220R
> resistors).
> 
> So, you can't just feed it any old gate signal.
> 
> And some way to tell the micro that the signal on the RXD pin is
> either MIDI _or_ Gate.
> 
> Neil
> 


From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jan 27 13:50:29 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:50:29 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <0025ce20a9b544d59e31885f5d6ae17d@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
 <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d51c0@go2.pl>
 <0025ce20a9b544d59e31885f5d6ae17d@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <27dac17e-173f-2feb-82da-873e1cf6f8ff@go2.pl>

Thanks Mike.

For me OTOH doing contract work sounds like a good plan, as I don't have 
to bother with thousand other stuff needed when running my own brand.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-27 o?12:21, Mike Bryant pisze:
> Actually Roman looking at your website I got the impression your customers do appreciate your range of products which solve their often unique problems.
> 
> I'd love people to know what I've designed but as a contract designer I'm under strict and everlasting NDAs.  All I can do is give hints where you might see my stuff.
> 
> Which is one reason I'm aiming to launch my own brand once chippagedon is over.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
> Sent: 27 January 2022 10:12
> To: Mike Beauchamp; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
> 
> 95% of my customers don't give a shit that all of the stuff was made personally by me, with passion and love, taking so much time that could be otherwise spent on drinking beer and crowling facebook.
> 
> Roman
> 
> W dniu 2022-01-22 o?04:13, Mike Beauchamp pisze:
>>
>> At the end of the day, you're making some cool shit.. and your
>> customers have something to be really proud of, knowing the work that
>> went into everything.
>>
>> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 13:53:53 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 12:53:53 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <27dac17e-173f-2feb-82da-873e1cf6f8ff@go2.pl>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
 <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d51c0@go2.pl>
 <0025ce20a9b544d59e31885f5d6ae17d@futurehorizons.com>
 <27dac17e-173f-2feb-82da-873e1cf6f8ff@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <0bbd9bf6db6249c1adedda1b58f27d09@futurehorizons.com>

Well it has been for the past 20 years, but there's projects I'd like to do that I can't get clients interested in so I've now hired somebody part time and am going to try to get something out by the end of the year.

-----Original Message-----
From: Roman Sowa [mailto:modular at go2.pl] 
Sent: 27 January 2022 12:50
To: Mike Bryant; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

Thanks Mike.

For me OTOH doing contract work sounds like a good plan, as I don't have to bother with thousand other stuff needed when running my own brand.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-27 o?12:21, Mike Bryant pisze:
> Actually Roman looking at your website I got the impression your customers do appreciate your range of products which solve their often unique problems.
> 
> I'd love people to know what I've designed but as a contract designer I'm under strict and everlasting NDAs.  All I can do is give hints where you might see my stuff.
> 
> Which is one reason I'm aiming to launch my own brand once chippagedon is over.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Roman Sowa
> Sent: 27 January 2022 10:12
> To: Mike Beauchamp; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
> 
> 95% of my customers don't give a shit that all of the stuff was made personally by me, with passion and love, taking so much time that could be otherwise spent on drinking beer and crowling facebook.
> 
> Roman
> 
> W dniu 2022-01-22 o?04:13, Mike Beauchamp pisze:
>>
>> At the end of the day, you're making some cool shit.. and your 
>> customers have something to be really proud of, knowing the work that 
>> went into everything.
>>
>> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 




From btremblay at me.com  Thu Jan 27 15:50:45 2022
From: btremblay at me.com (Benjamin Tremblay)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:50:45 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <00f1e90f55a1f3bcdaa25e8dc825686b2c8ab011.camel@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <79945B5E-F565-48AD-961E-0A5A20697272@cox.net>
 <A4B3BAE8-8B78-4445-9ABE-544C6B81AB72@me.com>
 <00f1e90f55a1f3bcdaa25e8dc825686b2c8ab011.camel@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54CCE001-238F-45CC-871C-B30FB748EC19@me.com>

Thanks Eric! Sometimes specs are just what I need.

I have a Teensy 4.1 pre-populated with RAM from Protosupplies and a set of audio boards. I feel mighty!
Some day maybe when I am dead and have free time I will upgrade my 8MB Teensy drum machine with the 16MB Teensy.
As it is I can get 11 voices of sampled drum sounds plus synthesis plus effects from this thing. I just want the samples to be a little longer.

I would like to see the Daisies pushing the clock speed limits like the Teensies.

> On Jan 27, 2022, at 12:07 AM, Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> The STM32H7 CPU used in the Daisy has similar capabilities to the
> iMXRT10 in the Teensy 4, but the Daisy includes the audio codec and
> 64MB of SDRAM, while the Teensy has no SDRAM and a codec is available
> using an add-on board. The STM32H7 runs a bit slower, but has on-chip
> flash while the iMX requires external flash so there may be some
> differences in memory bandwidth that fall in favor of the STM32H7.
> 
> On the software side, the Teensy has a very extensive and easy-to-use
> audio library. Daisy also has an audio library but I have no experience
> with that. Both claim compatibility with a wide range of development
> tools including the widely-known Arduino ecosystem.
> 
> It's probably close to a wash, but if you need a whole lot of temporary
> storage for audio buffers then the Daisy is probably a better bet.
> 
> Eric
> 
> On Wed, 2022-01-26 at 23:42 -0500, Benjamin Tremblay via Synth-diy
> wrote:
>> Is there anything I get from this I would not get from a Teensy 4? 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 11:13 PM, Barry Klein via Synth-diy
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I got the original Daisy Seed when it was debuted at NAMM 2 or 3
>>> years ago(?) but was incapable of getting it up and running without
>>> my son?s help (and he struggled a bit beforehand).  I really wanted
>>> to have fun learning something with it but it sits on my desk
>>> blinking it?s hello world blink.  This new Daisy looks even cooler
>>> as there should be lots of support to run the STM32 - another
>>> wannado for me. I wanted to get the right STM platform to run
>>> Audioweaver but I also had laptops too old to run it so things
>>> stalled. I suspect though I need to return to the Seed and get
>>> competent with it before spending more money on toys.  It sure
>>> helps if you have classmates or friends that share your interest in
>>> these things.  My son gave me a Teenage Engineering pocket operator
>>> thing and I could not figure the thing out. Don?t know how anyone
>>> on their own could. More dedication than I have! Has to be word of
>>> mouth for learning these things. The Seed is similar. Need
>>> handholding to get anywhere with it. The support videos progress
>>> very fast - have to slow them down to 50% speed to try and follow
>>> them. So yes you can do great things with these things but you have
>>> to know/learn how.
>>> 
>>> Barry
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ?Interesting --
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 17:47:22 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 17:47:22 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <54CCE001-238F-45CC-871C-B30FB748EC19@me.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <79945B5E-F565-48AD-961E-0A5A20697272@cox.net>
 <A4B3BAE8-8B78-4445-9ABE-544C6B81AB72@me.com>
 <00f1e90f55a1f3bcdaa25e8dc825686b2c8ab011.camel@gmail.com>
 <54CCE001-238F-45CC-871C-B30FB748EC19@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_ZWxxGuE=r9zr1SpEJkf9VYXZtPLajaHAG7wtKJM5kGQ@mail.gmail.com>

At this rate you'd think even fabs like Alfa would be getting uC
designs based on their ancient processes...

A new run of historical vintage 4-bit micros? I could see it happening...

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:56 PM Benjamin Tremblay via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks Eric! Sometimes specs are just what I need.
>
> I have a Teensy 4.1 pre-populated with RAM from Protosupplies and a set of audio boards. I feel mighty!
> Some day maybe when I am dead and have free time I will upgrade my 8MB Teensy drum machine with the 16MB Teensy.
> As it is I can get 11 voices of sampled drum sounds plus synthesis plus effects from this thing. I just want the samples to be a little longer.
>
> I would like to see the Daisies pushing the clock speed limits like the Teensies.
>
> > On Jan 27, 2022, at 12:07 AM, Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > The STM32H7 CPU used in the Daisy has similar capabilities to the
> > iMXRT10 in the Teensy 4, but the Daisy includes the audio codec and
> > 64MB of SDRAM, while the Teensy has no SDRAM and a codec is available
> > using an add-on board. The STM32H7 runs a bit slower, but has on-chip
> > flash while the iMX requires external flash so there may be some
> > differences in memory bandwidth that fall in favor of the STM32H7.
> >
> > On the software side, the Teensy has a very extensive and easy-to-use
> > audio library. Daisy also has an audio library but I have no experience
> > with that. Both claim compatibility with a wide range of development
> > tools including the widely-known Arduino ecosystem.
> >
> > It's probably close to a wash, but if you need a whole lot of temporary
> > storage for audio buffers then the Daisy is probably a better bet.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On Wed, 2022-01-26 at 23:42 -0500, Benjamin Tremblay via Synth-diy
> > wrote:
> >> Is there anything I get from this I would not get from a Teensy 4?
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 11:13 PM, Barry Klein via Synth-diy
> >>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I got the original Daisy Seed when it was debuted at NAMM 2 or 3
> >>> years ago(?) but was incapable of getting it up and running without
> >>> my son?s help (and he struggled a bit beforehand).  I really wanted
> >>> to have fun learning something with it but it sits on my desk
> >>> blinking it?s hello world blink.  This new Daisy looks even cooler
> >>> as there should be lots of support to run the STM32 - another
> >>> wannado for me. I wanted to get the right STM platform to run
> >>> Audioweaver but I also had laptops too old to run it so things
> >>> stalled. I suspect though I need to return to the Seed and get
> >>> competent with it before spending more money on toys.  It sure
> >>> helps if you have classmates or friends that share your interest in
> >>> these things.  My son gave me a Teenage Engineering pocket operator
> >>> thing and I could not figure the thing out. Don?t know how anyone
> >>> on their own could. More dedication than I have! Has to be word of
> >>> mouth for learning these things. The Seed is similar. Need
> >>> handholding to get anywhere with it. The support videos progress
> >>> very fast - have to slow them down to 50% speed to try and follow
> >>> them. So yes you can do great things with these things but you have
> >>> to know/learn how.
> >>>
> >>> Barry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> ?Interesting --
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From obl64 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jan 27 18:01:08 2022
From: obl64 at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:01:08 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <97ff9d3b-4944-0b13-40ec-ac78cf9a31ac@ix.netcom.com>

Cool! I was just last night wondering if anyone was using dual LED optos 
for MIDI IN.

On 1/27/22 3:49 AM, Roman Sowa wrote:
> There are also optocouplers with dual LEDs in reverse, so polarity 
> doesn't matter without hassle of adding diodes. For example APCL214, 
> which I've used in my MIDI2CV converters. Not only it provided 
> mistake-free wiring, but was also smaller than typical SOP5 optocoupler.
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-01-26 o?20:04, Sean Ellis via Synth-diy pisze:
>> Quite a few modules do it:
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf 
>> <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jakplugg/Neutron-Sound-Dust-of-Time/master/schematic.pdf> 
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> on behalf of 
>> Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 January 2022 3:11 PM
>> *To:* Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org>
>> *Cc:* Synth DIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board 
>> needs replacing ?
>> Matias, the Tukra by Tesseract does the same. Works with both 
>> standards for the input and has selectable output.
>> I appreciate the nostalgic love for Din connectors but they seriously 
>> limit the size and shape of the devices. I like how things are skinny 
>> these days? And yes, while the standard chose a smaller barrel, this 
>> was indeed done too late when already all manufacturers are using 
>> 3.5mm. They should have stuck to that and just chosen one polarity to 
>> be the standard ?IMO.
>> BTW I?ve been using 3.5mm trs MIDI for nearly a decade myself and 
>> have never encountered a ground loop issue.
>>
>> On Wed 26 Jan 2022 at 4:57 Mattias Rickardsson <mr at analogue.org 
>> <mailto:mr at analogue.org>> wrote:
>>
>> ??? <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com
>> ??? <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> skrev:
>>
>> ??????? Hey, it only took them a decade or so to include a messed up
>> ??????? standard for 1/8" TRS connectors.
>>
>>
>> ??? But the MIDI standard for TRS jacks ended up using 2.5 mm jacks, not
>> ??? 3.5 mm (1/8"). Just to avoid confusion. (-:
>>
>> ??? 3.5 mm was already the de-facto standard by then. But half of the
>> ??? manufacturers ended up using one polarity and the other half chose
>> ??? the other, which potentially makes MIDI devices incompatible, unless
>> ??? special cables/adapters are at hand.
>>
>> ??? In Elektron's Model series of instruments we implemented the TRS
>> ??? MIDI In to accept any polarity (passively, using diodes!), and a
>> ??? setting in the UI chooses between the two polarities for the TRS
>> ??? MIDI Out. Has this been done anywhere else? I've always felt that it
>> ??? perhaps should be published as an official application note, a
>> ??? suggested implementation superpower for other manufacturers to pick
>> ??? up. :-)
>>
>> ??? /mr
>>
>> ??? _______________________________________________
>> ??? Synth-diy mailing list
>> ??? Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> ??? http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> ??? <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>> ??? Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> ??? <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>
>> -- 
>> QMA
>> Quincas Moreira
>> Director | QMA
>> mobile: 5534988825 <tel:5534988825>
>> site: quincasmoreira.com <http://quincasmoreira.com/>
>> email: quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From obl64 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jan 27 18:09:33 2022
From: obl64 at ix.netcom.com (Oren Leavitt)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:09:33 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-_T2VGuCeP64_6AtbGWw3=5pPJZvnLk9LVHg4MwNQinow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
 <0401e57c-cefc-73dd-b12c-5ecec2aa2d97@go2.pl>
 <CAGn5V-_T2VGuCeP64_6AtbGWw3=5pPJZvnLk9LVHg4MwNQinow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e7a61c1-6248-4875-c9ad-e4a2a020766f@ix.netcom.com>

One time, I tested a little high voltage ion generator module on a 
floating power supply. I heard crackling noises inside the power supply 
between the PCB and chassis when I switched it on. No damage 
fortunately. Gotta be careful!

On 1/27/22 3:52 AM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> Ahhh, that sucks.
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>> For that purpose I've got permanently connected 20k resistor between my
>> test bench power supply black terminal (GND or negative whatever you
>> call it) to Earth terminal. This way PSU lines are not floating on
>> hundreds of volts whenever they want but are close to 0 while not
>> causing short with PC chasis when I use for example a programmer. It was
>> enough to keep my IDC3 in good condition for years, but when I took it
>> home, where I use floating PSU (laptop brick feeding DC/DC) I have fried
>> my ICD after 3 days :(
>>
>> Roman
>>
>> W dniu 2022-01-26 o 14:16, Mike Bryant pisze:
>>> Good idea.  Might stop people lifting the grounds on equipment they really shouldn't do so on !!
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
>>> Sent: 26 January 2022 12:12
>>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 10:41:49PM -0500, Mike Beauchamp wrote:
>>>> On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
>>>>> I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.
>>>> I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with a
>>>> custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?
>>>>
>>> I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.
>>>
>>> Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop currents to the point where they don't have an effect.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gordonjcp
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 18:12:49 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:12:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <d40c6b3c-bf0b-6609-3b85-77fb566e409d@pingdynasty.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b69923cfe05e406a83604913936fb915@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAEDQ4irfmgHwaXd12rBkg_KJ2F9wbTEN9LFpSCbJ3TmMk28D8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <a977f953-ae19-80cd-5494-63ea612805a9@pingdynasty.com>
 <9613a48f-0dbd-2eb6-f2b4-156ba3f22a4a@gmail.com>
 <d40c6b3c-bf0b-6609-3b85-77fb566e409d@pingdynasty.com>
Message-ID: <99ce797d-1869-986a-e898-3bb8db766373@gmail.com>

You're right! STM32H750 with only 128kB flash. I've done a design with 
that one (in the "before times") and managed to get a fair bit of code 
into the on-chip flash, but it really is designed for XIP or code 
swapping into SRAM when things get complicated. I haven't tried XIP with 
it, but I have used the QSPI port with external PSRAM and there is a 
substantial speed penalty.

Eric

On 1/27/22 03:52, Martin Klang wrote:
> 
> On 27/01/2022 06:07, Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy wrote:
>> The STM32H7 runs a bit slower, but has on-chip
>> flash while the iMX requires external flash so there may be some
>> differences in memory bandwidth that fall in favor of the STM32H7.
> 
> I believe Daisy uses the H750 which has only one sector of 128kB flash. 
> Typically you'd put the bootloader there and load the firmware into SRAM 
> (not SDRAM this time!) from somewhere else. You can also XIP from 
> external flash (eXecute In Place) ie run the firmware directly from a 
> memory-mapped QSPI flash, but performance is **horrible**. All those 
> lovely CPU cycles wasted in wait states!
> 
> 
> Martin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> .



From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 18:23:21 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:23:21 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>

On 1/27/22 02:51, cheater cheater wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 1:33 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I've done one port to RP2040 so far and migrating is definitely a shock
>> to the system. A few things I've noticed:
>>
>> * The SDK libraries cover a lot of basic stuff you'd want to do, but not
>> everything that STM32 HAL does. Be prepared to "roll your own".
> 
> Could you give some examples please?

In particular, there is no I2S port and the example they provide for the 
PIO is output-only. I was able to modify their approach to provide full 
duplex (in + out to a codec) and it works fine, but it's not nearly as 
easy to do as in STM32-land.

>> * The RP2040 ADC is a lot noisier than anything on STM32. They claim
>> 12-bits resolution and 10-bit accuracy. Expect less unless you're doing
>> a lot of integration.
> 
> How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?

You could certainly do it. With eight PIO state machines you could 
easily get 16 channels of I2S audio output and probably more if you 
tried really hard. There's plenty of bandwidth on the internal buses for 
stuff like that. Question is how you would source all the data that kind 
of design would need - even 16 channels would more than saturate the 
full-speed USB port at 48k. Generating the data programatically or even 
just reading it from flash would likewise be a squeeze.

Eric


From diydsp at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 27 18:50:17 2022
From: diydsp at yahoo.com (DIY DSP)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 17:50:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <6e840c3dd7774239b618922a1569e069@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <1089438083.41976.1643255018630@connect.xfinity.com>
 <6e840c3dd7774239b618922a1569e069@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <1219668695.1633293.1643305817592@mail.yahoo.com>


Perhaps the smart move would be to port Axoloti SW to the Daisy HW... and support Johannes.? His GUI and community library are amazing for all the basics, then when you need something weird you code it right in the GUI!? so so perfect.? 


Noah Vawter's futuristic electronic music instrument lab: youtube.com/diydsp 

    On Thursday, January 27, 2022, 04:42:25 AM EST, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:  
 
 <!--#yiv7414456809 _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv7414456809 #yiv7414456809 p.yiv7414456809MsoNormal, #yiv7414456809 li.yiv7414456809MsoNormal, #yiv7414456809 div.yiv7414456809MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", "serif";}#yiv7414456809 a:link, #yiv7414456809 span.yiv7414456809MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7414456809 a:visited, #yiv7414456809 span.yiv7414456809MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7414456809 p.yiv7414456809MsoAcetate, #yiv7414456809 li.yiv7414456809MsoAcetate, #yiv7414456809 div.yiv7414456809MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";}#yiv7414456809 span.yiv7414456809EmailStyle17 {font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}#yiv7414456809 span.yiv7414456809BalloonTextChar {font-family:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";}#yiv7414456809 .yiv7414456809MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv7414456809 div.yiv7414456809WordSection1 {}-->
Nope.
 
 ?
 
They deliberately don?t support Eclipse, or CMSIS, or any of the normal tools in an ARM development system.?? NIH in extremis
 
 ?
 
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org]On Behalf Of Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
Sent: 27 January 2022 03:44
To: Eric Brombaugh; Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
 
 ?
 
I'm pretty old school and can handle doing things turely bare metal but.
 
 ?
 
Stupid question, do they Eclipse for RP2040?
 
 ?
 
Thanks
 
Jay S.
 

On 01/26/2022 4:29 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
I've done one port to RP2040 so far and migrating is definitely a shock
 
to the system. A few things I've noticed: 
 
 ?
 
* The SDK has a lot of slick features based on cmake that tend to
 
obscure what's going on under the hood unless you're pretty advanced in
 
cmake. Digging down into the scripting takes time to absorb all the details.
 
 ?
 
* The SDK libraries cover a lot of basic stuff you'd want to do, but not
 
everything that STM32 HAL does. Be prepared to "roll your own".
 
 ?
 
* Dual core sounds like a very cool thing, and can be useful. Be
 
prepared to learn a lot of new things about resource sharing and coherency.
 
 ?
 
* The RP2040 chip has some nice hardware things going on, but they're
 
rather orthogonal to a lot of the stuff you may be used to on other
 
architectures. The PIO is fun to mess with, but has some limitations
 
that can sneak up on you. Don't assume you can route any signal to any
 
pin. Side pin signals need to be contiguous! 
 
 ?
 
* The RP2040 ADC is a lot noisier than anything on STM32. They claim
 
12-bits resolution and 10-bit accuracy. Expect less unless you're doing
 
a lot of integration. 
 
 ?
 
* The XIP flash interface has cache, but you'll find it's pretty
 
limited. Be prepared to move a lot of critical code into on-chip SRAM.
 
Dual core code will eat that cache up a lot faster too. 
 
 ?
 
* The 2nd-stage bootloader that RPi provides for the PICO devboard
 
assumes some unique things about the flash chip it's talking to. If you
 
don't have a genuine Winbond flash chip you'll need to revert to a
 
generic 2nd-stage that's got somewhat lower performance, or write your own.
 
 ?
 
I'm sure there are other issues, but those are the big ones I've hit so far.
 
 ?
 
Eric 
 
 ?
 
On 1/26/22 16:58, Mike Bryant wrote: 
 

That's exactly what I'm doing at this very moment. Replacing 1 H750 and 4 F730s with 21 RP2040s. Absolute nightmare of a chip - very poor support from RPT compared with STM - but slowly getting there more thanks to people on their forum than RPT staff. And have bought a half reel in advance to make sure I don't get shafted again.
 
 ?
 
For anybody else thinking of going this route, be warned that the SDK and the support programs to generate code for the PIOs have been written around gcc features and so it's currently impossible to use a modern compiler like Clang.
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
-----Original Message----- 
 
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
 
Sent: 26 January 2022 23:18 
 
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
 
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform 
 
 ?
 
Yep. Any STM32 parts more advanced than the low end of the G0/L0 families are basically unobtainium for the foreseeable future. We've had
 
F7 parts on back order for the last 9mo with no firm notice of when they'll be available. Unless you're a high volume customer with firm POs at this point you're sucking vacuum or subsisting on inventory you had in Q1/2021.
 
 ?
 
Any new MCU-based designs these days are migrating to alternatives.
 
RP2040 parts are now available for < $1 in quantity direct from RPi Foundation, and ESP32 variants are cheap and in-stock at all the major distys. Definitely worth considering.
 
 ?
 
Eric 
 
 ?
 
On 1/26/22 15:53, Mike Bryant wrote: 
 

After the AKM fab fire the guy there told me they had several reels of
 
CODECs in stock, so presumably they did the same with STM32s.?? Wish
 
I?d bought a reel or two now. 
 
 ?
 
*From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf
 
Of *Peter Pearson via Synth-diy 
 
*Sent:* 26 January 2022 22:50 
 
*To:* Jason Proctor 
 
*Cc:* synth-diy mailing list 
 
*Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform 
 
 ?
 
I'd like to know where they bought STM32s with the global chip
 
shortage and all that... 
 
 ?
 
On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 4:40 PM Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net
 
<mailto:jason at redfish.net>> wrote:
 
 ?
 
Interesting -- 
 
 ?
 
https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
 
 ?
 
<https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-
 
platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/> 
 

_______________________________________________ 
 
Synth-diy mailing list 
 
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
 
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
 
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org 
 
 ?
 

 ?
 
_______________________________________________ 
 
Synth-diy mailing list 
 
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
 
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
 
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org 
 
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From jason at redfish.net  Thu Jan 27 19:04:10 2022
From: jason at redfish.net (Jason Proctor)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:04:10 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <A4B3BAE8-8B78-4445-9ABE-544C6B81AB72@me.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <79945B5E-F565-48AD-961E-0A5A20697272@cox.net>
 <A4B3BAE8-8B78-4445-9ABE-544C6B81AB72@me.com>
Message-ID: <CALQanA+muwvpCkcd_BCnjYjJO7Vk6EEnKr3+z3cCLjkRdWwq+A@mail.gmail.com>

I think the plan is to create a development community around this
where the effort between developing (or downloading) custom firmware
and actually using it in your modular is very low. A bit like a bigger
Disting with more knobs and I/O, albeit without a screen. $199 is
cheap even for a Eurorack module, why not have one?

I tried to do this with a 5U Arduino back in the day, and SnazzyFX
tried to do this with the Euroduino. Remains to be seen whether having
a proper chip behind there drives adoption.

As a software hack who periodically dabbles in hardware, I'm curious...



On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 at 20:42, Benjamin Tremblay <btremblay at me.com> wrote:
>
> Is there anything I get from this I would not get from a Teensy 4?
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 11:13 PM, Barry Klein via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I got the original Daisy Seed when it was debuted at NAMM 2 or 3 years ago(?) but was incapable of getting it up and running without my son?s help (and he struggled a bit beforehand).  I really wanted to have fun learning something with it but it sits on my desk blinking it?s hello world blink.  This new Daisy looks even cooler as there should be lots of support to run the STM32 - another wannado for me. I wanted to get the right STM platform to run Audioweaver but I also had laptops too old to run it so things stalled. I suspect though I need to return to the Seed and get competent with it before spending more money on toys.  It sure helps if you have classmates or friends that share your interest in these things.  My son gave me a Teenage Engineering pocket operator thing and I could not figure the thing out. Don?t know how anyone on their own could. More dedication than I have! Has to be word of mouth for learning these things. The Seed is similar. Need handholding to get anywhere with it. The support videos progress very fast - have to slow them down to 50% speed to try and follow them. So yes you can do great things with these things but you have to know/learn how.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> >> On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?Interesting --
> >>
> >> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-40-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 19:08:56 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:08:56 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CALQanA+muwvpCkcd_BCnjYjJO7Vk6EEnKr3+z3cCLjkRdWwq+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <79945B5E-F565-48AD-961E-0A5A20697272@cox.net>
 <A4B3BAE8-8B78-4445-9ABE-544C6B81AB72@me.com>
 <CALQanA+muwvpCkcd_BCnjYjJO7Vk6EEnKr3+z3cCLjkRdWwq+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32531401f389466094b53f43da827e67@futurehorizons.com>

There's a very active Electrosmith community already, as there is with Teensy as well, though Teensy has a broader based section of user-applications even though the guy running it is keen on audio.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jason Proctor
Sent: 27 January 2022 18:04
To: Benjamin Tremblay
Cc: synth-diy mailing list
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

I think the plan is to create a development community around this where the effort between developing (or downloading) custom firmware and actually using it in your modular is very low. A bit like a bigger Disting with more knobs and I/O, albeit without a screen. $199 is cheap even for a Eurorack module, why not have one?

I tried to do this with a 5U Arduino back in the day, and SnazzyFX tried to do this with the Euroduino. Remains to be seen whether having a proper chip behind there drives adoption.

As a software hack who periodically dabbles in hardware, I'm curious...



On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 at 20:42, Benjamin Tremblay <btremblay at me.com> wrote:
>
> Is there anything I get from this I would not get from a Teensy 4?
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 11:13 PM, Barry Klein via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I got the original Daisy Seed when it was debuted at NAMM 2 or 3 years ago(?) but was incapable of getting it up and running without my son?s help (and he struggled a bit beforehand).  I really wanted to have fun learning something with it but it sits on my desk blinking it?s hello world blink.  This new Daisy looks even cooler as there should be lots of support to run the STM32 - another wannado for me. I wanted to get the right STM platform to run Audioweaver but I also had laptops too old to run it so things stalled. I suspect though I need to return to the Seed and get competent with it before spending more money on toys.  It sure helps if you have classmates or friends that share your interest in these things.  My son gave me a Teenage Engineering pocket operator thing and I could not figure the thing out. Don?t know how anyone on their own could. More dedication than I have! Has to be word of mouth for learning these things. The Seed is similar. Need handholding to get anywhere with it. The support videos progress very fast - have to slow them down to 50% speed to try and follow them. So yes you can do great things with these things but you have to know/learn how.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> >> On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:39 PM, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?Interesting --
> >>
> >> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/01/25/electrosmith-intros-4
> >> 0-platform-for-creating-dsp-based-eurorack-modules/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 19:13:55 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:13:55 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>

 
>> How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?

>You could certainly do it. With eight PIO state machines you could easily get 16 channels of I2S audio output and probably more if you tried really hard. There's plenty of bandwidth on the internal buses for stuff like that. Question is how you would >source all the data that kind of design would need - even 16 channels would more than saturate the full-speed USB port at 48k. Generating the data programatically or even just reading it from flash would likewise be a squeeze.

> Eric

I thought he meant using the internals of the chip to do DACs.  In theory the PIOs could manage 16 channels of TDM per state-machine so 128 in all, though then the processors can't fill the FIFOs fast enough.   I'm running a TDM ring with 40 channels in and out without overclocking or anything on one PIO, whilst the other sends and receives data from converters to put on and off the ring.
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
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From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Jan 27 19:23:28 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:23:28 -0800
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d51c0@go2.pl>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
 <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d5	1c0@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <1B921EE74B964B5FAFDA5FBAB15B26FD@david78c70950b>

Your customers obviously suck.  Get better ones. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman
Sowa
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:12 AM
To: Mike Beauchamp; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164

[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]

95% of my customers don't give a shit that all of the stuff was made
personally by me, with passion and love, taking so much time that could be
otherwise spent on drinking beer and crowling facebook.

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-22 o?04:13, Mike Beauchamp pisze:
> 
> At the end of the day, you're making some cool shit.. and your 
> customers have something to be really proud of, knowing the work that 
> went into everything.
> 
> Mike
_______________________________________________
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Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 19:53:50 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:53:50 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <3e7a61c1-6248-4875-c9ad-e4a2a020766f@ix.netcom.com>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <9CB3311B-FA6D-4B79-84BE-AAA4C8592BCA@audiobanshee.com>
 <1bea952b-259d-f363-80dc-67cc7e5b0a50@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <20220126121149.GA32685@gjcp.net>
 <1c9f2b899b6943918e752a87b8dd56c9@futurehorizons.com>
 <0401e57c-cefc-73dd-b12c-5ecec2aa2d97@go2.pl>
 <CAGn5V-_T2VGuCeP64_6AtbGWw3=5pPJZvnLk9LVHg4MwNQinow@mail.gmail.com>
 <3e7a61c1-6248-4875-c9ad-e4a2a020766f@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_Bf9RgbMbzBRnTrbgb133otoXd+r-k0mF_awhh25BuTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Haha, at first I thought you hooked up the output of the ion generator
to the psu's outputs. But then I realized that it probably doesn't
make a difference.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 6:12 PM Oren Leavitt via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> One time, I tested a little high voltage ion generator module on a
> floating power supply. I heard crackling noises inside the power supply
> between the PCB and chassis when I switched it on. No damage
> fortunately. Gotta be careful!
>
> On 1/27/22 3:52 AM, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > Ahhh, that sucks.
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
> >> For that purpose I've got permanently connected 20k resistor between my
> >> test bench power supply black terminal (GND or negative whatever you
> >> call it) to Earth terminal. This way PSU lines are not floating on
> >> hundreds of volts whenever they want but are close to 0 while not
> >> causing short with PC chasis when I use for example a programmer. It was
> >> enough to keep my IDC3 in good condition for years, but when I took it
> >> home, where I use floating PSU (laptop brick feeding DC/DC) I have fried
> >> my ICD after 3 days :(
> >>
> >> Roman
> >>
> >> W dniu 2022-01-26 o 14:16, Mike Bryant pisze:
> >>> Good idea.  Might stop people lifting the grounds on equipment they really shouldn't do so on !!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Gordonjcp
> >>> Sent: 26 January 2022 12:12
> >>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs replacing ?
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 10:41:49PM -0500, Mike Beauchamp wrote:
> >>>> On 1/25/22 10:31 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:
> >>>>> I brought this up with designers before, and someone claimed that it's easy to select panel-mount 1/8" jacks that are electrically isolated from the panel. Of course, that works until there are supply issues and someone in your sourcing department decides that another panel-mount 1/8" jack is "equivalent" ... except that it's no longer isolated.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I prefer the DIN where the shield and ground are separate from each other *and* separate from the MIDI signaling. That makes it *much* easier to ensure against ground loops.
> >>>> I've never used 3.5mm midi. .but could this problem be "solved" with a
> >>>> custom cable where the shield doesn't connect at one of the ends?
> >>>>
> >>> I have solved a similar problem in the past with a custom jack cable with the braid connected with a 470 ohm resistor at each end.
> >>>
> >>> Makes bugger all difference to shielding (because 470 ohms or 235 ohms if both ends are grounded is peanuts compared to the infinite impedance of the braid in free space), drastically reduces ground loop currents to the point where they don't have an effect.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Gordonjcp
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 19:58:53 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:58:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>

Yep Mike, that's what I meant - using the Pi2040 as the DAC itself,
not with external DACs ... 8-9 bits and unspecified other issues
sounds really dire though...

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 7:16 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?
>
> >You could certainly do it. With eight PIO state machines you could easily get 16 channels of I2S audio output and probably more if you tried really hard. There's plenty of bandwidth on the internal buses for stuff like that. Question is how you would >source all the data that kind of design would need - even 16 channels would more than saturate the full-speed USB port at 48k. Generating the data programatically or even just reading it from flash would likewise be a squeeze.
>
> > Eric
>
> I thought he meant using the internals of the chip to do DACs.  In theory the PIOs could manage 16 channels of TDM per state-machine so 128 in all, though then the processors can't fill the FIFOs fast enough.   I'm running a TDM ring with 40 channels in and out without overclocking or anything on one PIO, whilst the other sends and receives data from converters to put on and off the ring.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 20:12:21 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:12:21 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>

Renesas are launching a new range of FPGAs this summer that could be a good fit for this sort of thing.   They're not mega-gate or mega-speed like Altera or Xilinx, but better than CPLDs.   No datasheets yet but they tell me definitely worth waiting to have a look.

-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 27 January 2022 18:59
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

Yep Mike, that's what I meant - using the Pi2040 as the DAC itself, not with external DACs ... 8-9 bits and unspecified other issues sounds really dire though...

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 7:16 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?
>
> >You could certainly do it. With eight PIO state machines you could easily get 16 channels of I2S audio output and probably more if you tried really hard. There's plenty of bandwidth on the internal buses for stuff like that. Question is how you would >source all the data that kind of design would need - even 16 channels would more than saturate the full-speed USB port at 48k. Generating the data programatically or even just reading it from flash would likewise be a squeeze.
>
> > Eric
>
> I thought he meant using the internals of the chip to do DACs.  In theory the PIOs could manage 16 channels of TDM per state-machine so 128 in all, though then the processors can't fill the FIFOs fast enough.   I'm running a TDM ring with 40 channels in and out without overclocking or anything on one PIO, whilst the other sends and receives data from converters to put on and off the ring.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Thu Jan 27 20:39:43 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:39:43 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d51c0@go2.pl>
References: <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
 <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d51c0@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <20220127193943.GA27129@gjcp.net>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:12:29AM +0100, Roman Sowa wrote:
> 95% of my customers don't give a shit that all of the stuff was made
> personally by me, with passion and love, taking so much time that could be
> otherwise spent on drinking beer and crowling facebook.

I'm glad to be in the 5% who has seen the sheer quality and experienced Roman's absolutely top quality technical support.

Now M*gn*s *rg*n B**ld*rs on the other hand... :-D  Man they caused me a few headaches.

-- 
Gordonjcp


From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 20:49:10 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 12:49:10 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>

FPGA was the thing that came to my mind also - Lattice iCE40 and ECP5 
parts are great for this and some of them are still available at the 
distributors. I did a high sample rate digital VCO using an iCE40UP5k 
last year that uses differential PDM outputs and gets some pretty nice 
SNR and distortion figures with minimal external circuitry. The logic 
needed is simple and with some of the high pincount devices they've got 
you could get a lot of channels out.

Eric

On 1/27/22 12:12, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Renesas are launching a new range of FPGAs this summer that could be a good fit for this sort of thing.   They're not mega-gate or mega-speed like Altera or Xilinx, but better than CPLDs.   No datasheets yet but they tell me definitely worth waiting to have a look.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 January 2022 18:59
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> Yep Mike, that's what I meant - using the Pi2040 as the DAC itself, not with external DACs ... 8-9 bits and unspecified other issues sounds really dire though...
> 
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 7:16 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?
>>
>>> You could certainly do it. With eight PIO state machines you could easily get 16 channels of I2S audio output and probably more if you tried really hard. There's plenty of bandwidth on the internal buses for stuff like that. Question is how you would >source all the data that kind of design would need - even 16 channels would more than saturate the full-speed USB port at 48k. Generating the data programatically or even just reading it from flash would likewise be a squeeze.
>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> I thought he meant using the internals of the chip to do DACs.  In theory the PIOs could manage 16 channels of TDM per state-machine so 128 in all, though then the processors can't fill the FIFOs fast enough.   I'm running a TDM ring with 40 channels in and out without overclocking or anything on one PIO, whilst the other sends and receives data from converters to put on and off the ring.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 21:51:40 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:51:40 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>

Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?   

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
Sent: 27 January 2022 19:49
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

FPGA was the thing that came to my mind also - Lattice iCE40 and ECP5 parts are great for this and some of them are still available at the distributors. I did a high sample rate digital VCO using an iCE40UP5k last year that uses differential PDM outputs and gets some pretty nice SNR and distortion figures with minimal external circuitry. The logic needed is simple and with some of the high pincount devices they've got you could get a lot of channels out.

Eric

On 1/27/22 12:12, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Renesas are launching a new range of FPGAs this summer that could be a good fit for this sort of thing.   They're not mega-gate or mega-speed like Altera or Xilinx, but better than CPLDs.   No datasheets yet but they tell me definitely worth waiting to have a look.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 January 2022 18:59
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> Yep Mike, that's what I meant - using the Pi2040 as the DAC itself, not with external DACs ... 8-9 bits and unspecified other issues sounds really dire though...
> 
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 7:16 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?
>>
>>> You could certainly do it. With eight PIO state machines you could easily get 16 channels of I2S audio output and probably more if you tried really hard. There's plenty of bandwidth on the internal buses for stuff like that. Question is how you would >source all the data that kind of design would need - even 16 channels would more than saturate the full-speed USB port at 48k. Generating the data programatically or even just reading it from flash would likewise be a squeeze.
>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> I thought he meant using the internals of the chip to do DACs.  In theory the PIOs could manage 16 channels of TDM per state-machine so 128 in all, though then the processors can't fill the FIFOs fast enough.   I'm running a TDM ring with 40 channels in and out without overclocking or anything on one PIO, whilst the other sends and receives data from converters to put on and off the ring.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 22:01:32 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:01:32 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] EE College Humor
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UAfhREB3fvaQMLStxpVpyTJ09mO5OdUnC36i2FA=5HbUQ@mail.gmail.com>

I thought this group would enjoy this story from my EE college student
days...

When I was in college, we had one lab where all the students built these
continuity testers. When you connected the probes at two points on a
circuit and there was continuity, the tester would emit a BEEP. That tester
was called the ?Testafon?.

The instructor of that lab declared a particular day ?Testafon Day? where
everyone would bring their testers to college.

One of the professors at college was determined not to let ANYONE bring any
Testafons in his class, as he did not want the disruption of the BEEP they
made.

Never passing up a good prank, I devised a way to conceal my Testafon. It
was small enough to fit in my pocket. Then I looped the wires through the
belt loops of my pants, and on the other side of my pants the probes were
wired to a microswitch with a spring loaded actuator, which I could push
with just my elbow at the waist. I wore my denim jacket to hide this setup,
thus all I had to do was use my elbow to push the switch close - with my
hands above the desk - and the BEEP would go off.

We?re sitting in class and I set it off BEEP. The professor was visibly
annoyed. BEEP. ?Turn that thing OFF.? BEEP. ?Which one of you has it?!??
BEEP. He followed the sound, came in my direction and got as close as the
student seated in front of me. The professor gave up.

After class, we are in the computer room having a good laugh about the
prank. The professor?s office is down the hall past the computer room. The
professor enters the computer room as we are laughing, and the entire room
abruptly goes silent. The professor stops and is bewildered by the sudden
silence.

BEEP

He broke into a chuckle. ?Some day I?m going to find that SOB??

The professor is one of my Facebook friends...

MC
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From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 22:30:29 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:30:29 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>

No secrets - this was a personal project to see how well it works. 
Details are here:

https://github.com/emeb/up5k_osc

TL;DR on the differential PDM: The generic FPGA output drivers have a 
bit of asymmetry in the rise/fall times which can cause some low level 
harmonic distortion. There are a couple of techniques for dealing with 
this - 1) ensuring there's always a rise and fall in every output 
period, and 2) using differential signalling to cancel the asymmetry. I 
tried various combinations and saw improvements for both. Overall I'd 
estimate there was about a 15-20dB improvement in THD.

The output filter consists of a passive RC on each differential leg, 
then feeding into a diff-amp with additional 1-pole filtering that 
outputs a unipolar signal at modular synth levels. Since the clock rate 
was so high and the baseband signal bandwidth fairly low in comparison 
there wasn't much need for fancier filtering than that.

Eric

On 1/27/22 13:51, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> Sent: 27 January 2022 19:49
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> FPGA was the thing that came to my mind also - Lattice iCE40 and ECP5 parts are great for this and some of them are still available at the distributors. I did a high sample rate digital VCO using an iCE40UP5k last year that uses differential PDM outputs and gets some pretty nice SNR and distortion figures with minimal external circuitry. The logic needed is simple and with some of the high pincount devices they've got you could get a lot of channels out.
> 
> Eric
> 
> On 1/27/22 12:12, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> Renesas are launching a new range of FPGAs this summer that could be a good fit for this sort of thing.   They're not mega-gate or mega-speed like Altera or Xilinx, but better than CPLDs.   No datasheets yet but they tell me definitely worth waiting to have a look.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 27 January 2022 18:59
>> To: Mike Bryant
>> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>>
>> Yep Mike, that's what I meant - using the Pi2040 as the DAC itself, not with external DACs ... 8-9 bits and unspecified other issues sounds really dire though...
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 7:16 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?
>>>
>>>> You could certainly do it. With eight PIO state machines you could easily get 16 channels of I2S audio output and probably more if you tried really hard. There's plenty of bandwidth on the internal buses for stuff like that. Question is how you would >source all the data that kind of design would need - even 16 channels would more than saturate the full-speed USB port at 48k. Generating the data programatically or even just reading it from flash would likewise be a squeeze.
>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>
>>> I thought he meant using the internals of the chip to do DACs.  In theory the PIOs could manage 16 channels of TDM per state-machine so 128 in all, though then the processors can't fill the FIFOs fast enough.   I'm running a TDM ring with 40 channels in and out without overclocking or anything on one PIO, whilst the other sends and receives data from converters to put on and off the ring.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jan 27 22:44:48 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:44:48 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>

Thanks - that makes obvious sense now you mention it !!    P channel MOSFETs turn on very differently to N-channel - your method cancels this out. 

Can I ask what THD did you get to ?



-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
Sent: 27 January 2022 21:30
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

No secrets - this was a personal project to see how well it works. 
Details are here:

https://github.com/emeb/up5k_osc

TL;DR on the differential PDM: The generic FPGA output drivers have a bit of asymmetry in the rise/fall times which can cause some low level harmonic distortion. There are a couple of techniques for dealing with this - 1) ensuring there's always a rise and fall in every output period, and 2) using differential signalling to cancel the asymmetry. I tried various combinations and saw improvements for both. Overall I'd estimate there was about a 15-20dB improvement in THD.

The output filter consists of a passive RC on each differential leg, then feeding into a diff-amp with additional 1-pole filtering that outputs a unipolar signal at modular synth levels. Since the clock rate was so high and the baseband signal bandwidth fairly low in comparison there wasn't much need for fancier filtering than that.

Eric

On 1/27/22 13:51, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> Sent: 27 January 2022 19:49
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> FPGA was the thing that came to my mind also - Lattice iCE40 and ECP5 parts are great for this and some of them are still available at the distributors. I did a high sample rate digital VCO using an iCE40UP5k last year that uses differential PDM outputs and gets some pretty nice SNR and distortion figures with minimal external circuitry. The logic needed is simple and with some of the high pincount devices they've got you could get a lot of channels out.
> 
> Eric
> 
> On 1/27/22 12:12, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> Renesas are launching a new range of FPGAs this summer that could be a good fit for this sort of thing.   They're not mega-gate or mega-speed like Altera or Xilinx, but better than CPLDs.   No datasheets yet but they tell me definitely worth waiting to have a look.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 27 January 2022 18:59
>> To: Mike Bryant
>> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>>
>> Yep Mike, that's what I meant - using the Pi2040 as the DAC itself, not with external DACs ... 8-9 bits and unspecified other issues sounds really dire though...
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 7:16 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> How is the RP2040 as a massive amount of audio DACs?
>>>
>>>> You could certainly do it. With eight PIO state machines you could easily get 16 channels of I2S audio output and probably more if you tried really hard. There's plenty of bandwidth on the internal buses for stuff like that. Question is how you would >source all the data that kind of design would need - even 16 channels would more than saturate the full-speed USB port at 48k. Generating the data programatically or even just reading it from flash would likewise be a squeeze.
>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>
>>> I thought he meant using the internals of the chip to do DACs.  In theory the PIOs could manage 16 channels of TDM per state-machine so 128 in all, though then the processors can't fill the FIFOs fast enough.   I'm running a TDM ring with 40 channels in and out without overclocking or anything on one PIO, whilst the other sends and receives data from converters to put on and off the ring.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mr at analogue.org  Thu Jan 27 22:52:18 2022
From: mr at analogue.org (Mattias Rickardsson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:52:18 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Who apart from me things the whole MIDI board needs
 replacing ?
In-Reply-To: <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
References: <3a5747d0aefa4055be5313cef105b25c@futurehorizons.com>
 <74F8E7A4-254C-44A8-9217-B8ED77570CFF@audiobanshee.com>
 <bbe75250-0e40-4af6-b10e-7a55199d9ec3@beta.fastmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2201240731360.27851@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <CAP92RBVNNqdBdJ+Wz8kvYcXrfBvWojdXLNPyWtXxZqmQ3_dc0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <8bdb5e0df41c4955b91e61764a6d07ce@futurehorizons.com>
 <em3ea9d772-5275-48d4-b0dc-8a59c5bfaa38@asus_n76>
 <CAP92RBWBw5w19yhGBKpnmu7_bt34ow=H1A+tDqCmfUWqqQVU_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+u0JtnUbcLRC4OHSwNQm1N5HKg6EPgG2Xh2pWBWD_CYZfa-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <SI2PR06MB4638DA845FDEFB9BC8C5E6C6B3209@SI2PR06MB4638.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <0a5b3060-ece3-0c88-b626-215185dd36a5@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <CAP92RBVWt9v9M5ZUCZAk7ecZzHaw7MsUhj4pwgxWozJxxrNOLA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 10:50, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:

> There are also optocouplers with dual LEDs in reverse, so polarity
> doesn't matter without hassle of adding diodes.
>

Oh, we actually used dual optocouplers in parallel with opposite polarities
instead. No extra diodes! ;-)

/mr
-------------- next part --------------
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From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Thu Jan 27 22:57:19 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:57:19 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>

I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the 
mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not quite 
as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a few SMT 
passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs don't support 
12MHz sample rates.

Eric

On 1/27/22 14:44, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Thanks - that makes obvious sense now you mention it !!    P channel MOSFETs turn on very differently to N-channel - your method cancels this out.
> 
> Can I ask what THD did you get to ?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> Sent: 27 January 2022 21:30
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> No secrets - this was a personal project to see how well it works.
> Details are here:
> 
> https://github.com/emeb/up5k_osc
> 
> TL;DR on the differential PDM: The generic FPGA output drivers have a bit of asymmetry in the rise/fall times which can cause some low level harmonic distortion. There are a couple of techniques for dealing with this - 1) ensuring there's always a rise and fall in every output period, and 2) using differential signalling to cancel the asymmetry. I tried various combinations and saw improvements for both. Overall I'd estimate there was about a 15-20dB improvement in THD.
> 
> The output filter consists of a passive RC on each differential leg, then feeding into a diff-amp with additional 1-pole filtering that outputs a unipolar signal at modular synth levels. Since the clock rate was so high and the baseband signal bandwidth fairly low in comparison there wasn't much need for fancier filtering than that.
> 
> Eric
> 
> On 1/27/22 13:51, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 28 01:19:58 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 00:19:58 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29519ceb542241adaca9ece988109017@futurehorizons.com>

Not as good as an audio ADC, but good by high power class D amplifier standards so thinking if this could be applied to such an amp.  One solution is to go bridged to do the subtraction in the speaker itself, but that adds other complications.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
Sent: 27 January 2022 21:57
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs don't support 12MHz sample rates.

Eric

On 1/27/22 14:44, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Thanks - that makes obvious sense now you mention it !!    P channel MOSFETs turn on very differently to N-channel - your method cancels this out.
> 
> Can I ask what THD did you get to ?
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> Sent: 27 January 2022 21:30
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> No secrets - this was a personal project to see how well it works.
> Details are here:
> 
> https://github.com/emeb/up5k_osc
> 
> TL;DR on the differential PDM: The generic FPGA output drivers have a bit of asymmetry in the rise/fall times which can cause some low level harmonic distortion. There are a couple of techniques for dealing with this - 1) ensuring there's always a rise and fall in every output period, and 2) using differential signalling to cancel the asymmetry. I tried various combinations and saw improvements for both. Overall I'd estimate there was about a 15-20dB improvement in THD.
> 
> The output filter consists of a passive RC on each differential leg, then feeding into a diff-amp with additional 1-pole filtering that outputs a unipolar signal at modular synth levels. Since the clock rate was so high and the baseband signal bandwidth fairly low in comparison there wasn't much need for fancier filtering than that.
> 
> Eric
> 
> On 1/27/22 13:51, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 07:20:10 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 07:20:10 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not quite
> as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a few SMT
> passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs don't support
> 12MHz sample rates.
>
> Eric

Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github repository
was very helpful learning a bunch more about your approach. Really
nice of you to share, and those are some interesting results. I've had
a few questions if you don't mind.

Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?

What was the performance at DC?

How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the data
comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at enough bit
depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces required bit rate
but, say, it could be post filter, or any other module)

Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or with a
saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?

Thanks!

> On 1/27/22 14:44, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > Thanks - that makes obvious sense now you mention it !!    P channel MOSFETs turn on very differently to N-channel - your method cancels this out.
> >
> > Can I ask what THD did you get to ?
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 27 January 2022 21:30
> > To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> >
> > No secrets - this was a personal project to see how well it works.
> > Details are here:
> >
> > https://github.com/emeb/up5k_osc
> >
> > TL;DR on the differential PDM: The generic FPGA output drivers have a bit of asymmetry in the rise/fall times which can cause some low level harmonic distortion. There are a couple of techniques for dealing with this - 1) ensuring there's always a rise and fall in every output period, and 2) using differential signalling to cancel the asymmetry. I tried various combinations and saw improvements for both. Overall I'd estimate there was about a 15-20dB improvement in THD.
> >
> > The output filter consists of a passive RC on each differential leg, then feeding into a diff-amp with additional 1-pole filtering that outputs a unipolar signal at modular synth levels. Since the clock rate was so high and the baseband signal bandwidth fairly low in comparison there wasn't much need for fancier filtering than that.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On 1/27/22 13:51, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >> Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 28 10:45:26 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 09:45:26 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>


On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the 
> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not 
> quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a 
> few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs 
> don't support 12MHz sample rates.
>
> Eric

Did you try running two systems in parallel with the second running half a sample behind and summing the pair ?   Might give a little bit performance as it would have the effect of an even higher sampling rate.



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 11:37:59 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 11:37:59 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
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 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--ou60pCXKJXLRyp8cGhwSQyYNo3Oz-wSE366vW5XOftQ@mail.gmail.com>

The aliases would still be reflecting off the same sampling frequency
- how would that have the effect of a higher sampling rate? Am I
missing something? Thanks

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:45 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
> > mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not
> > quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a
> > few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs
> > don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> >
> > Eric
>
> Did you try running two systems in parallel with the second running half a sample behind and summing the pair ?   Might give a little bit performance as it would have the effect of an even higher sampling rate.


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 28 11:44:12 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 10:44:12 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--ou60pCXKJXLRyp8cGhwSQyYNo3Oz-wSE366vW5XOftQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--ou60pCXKJXLRyp8cGhwSQyYNo3Oz-wSE366vW5XOftQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b4147defe37c438ea3194fc1fa965052@futurehorizons.com>

His THD isn't due to aliases, it's due to switching errors.   If you put two outputs in timesync with each other then you'd reduce noise by 3dB but the harmonic distortion would remain the same.  Offsetting one in time from the other means you have two smaller harmonic causing spikes of half the amplitude, which reduces the actual power in the harmonics ....  maybe :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 28 January 2022 10:38
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

The aliases would still be reflecting off the same sampling frequency
- how would that have the effect of a higher sampling rate? Am I missing something? Thanks

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:45 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the 
> > mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not 
> > quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but 
> > a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs 
> > don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> >
> > Eric
>
> Did you try running two systems in parallel with the second running half a sample behind and summing the pair ?   Might give a little bit performance as it would have the effect of an even higher sampling rate.




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 12:34:16 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:34:16 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <b4147defe37c438ea3194fc1fa965052@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--ou60pCXKJXLRyp8cGhwSQyYNo3Oz-wSE366vW5XOftQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b4147defe37c438ea3194fc1fa965052@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--cpTxzak73w_XKCFJeFmQ-GgyPyRzRYUCKY1C1S7FdNg@mail.gmail.com>

Can you create two signals so that the distortion harmonics are
flipped, and thus cancel out completely?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:44 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> His THD isn't due to aliases, it's due to switching errors.   If you put two outputs in timesync with each other then you'd reduce noise by 3dB but the harmonic distortion would remain the same.  Offsetting one in time from the other means you have two smaller harmonic causing spikes of half the amplitude, which reduces the actual power in the harmonics ....  maybe :-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 28 January 2022 10:38
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>
> The aliases would still be reflecting off the same sampling frequency
> - how would that have the effect of a higher sampling rate? Am I missing something? Thanks
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:45 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
> > > mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not
> > > quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but
> > > a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs
> > > don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> > >
> > > Eric
> >
> > Did you try running two systems in parallel with the second running half a sample behind and summing the pair ?   Might give a little bit performance as it would have the effect of an even higher sampling rate.
>



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 28 12:40:59 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 11:40:59 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--cpTxzak73w_XKCFJeFmQ-GgyPyRzRYUCKY1C1S7FdNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--ou60pCXKJXLRyp8cGhwSQyYNo3Oz-wSE366vW5XOftQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b4147defe37c438ea3194fc1fa965052@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--cpTxzak73w_XKCFJeFmQ-GgyPyRzRYUCKY1C1S7FdNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e460a7e8266443a6bd010f921cfed22e@futurehorizons.com>


That would be a magic goal.  And probably transgressing every law of physics :-)

What we did in a class D amp we designed as a demonstrator is first measure the elements causing distortion in the output signal and then dynamically calculate and add a compensation signal to it.  A bit like feed-forward does in an analogue amp.  A lot of DSP required though.  And you never get to perfect.



-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 28 January 2022 11:34
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

Can you create two signals so that the distortion harmonics are flipped, and thus cancel out completely?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:44 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> His THD isn't due to aliases, it's due to switching errors.   If you put two outputs in timesync with each other then you'd reduce noise by 3dB but the harmonic distortion would remain the same.  Offsetting one in time from the other means you have two smaller harmonic causing spikes of half the amplitude, which reduces the actual power in the harmonics ....  maybe :-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 28 January 2022 10:38
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>
> The aliases would still be reflecting off the same sampling frequency
> - how would that have the effect of a higher sampling rate? Am I 
> missing something? Thanks
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:45 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the 
> > > mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not 
> > > quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, 
> > > but a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and 
> > > I2S DACs don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> > >
> > > Eric
> >
> > Did you try running two systems in parallel with the second running half a sample behind and summing the pair ?   Might give a little bit performance as it would have the effect of an even higher sampling rate.
>




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 14:05:53 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 14:05:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <e460a7e8266443a6bd010f921cfed22e@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--ou60pCXKJXLRyp8cGhwSQyYNo3Oz-wSE366vW5XOftQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b4147defe37c438ea3194fc1fa965052@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--cpTxzak73w_XKCFJeFmQ-GgyPyRzRYUCKY1C1S7FdNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e460a7e8266443a6bd010f921cfed22e@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--hhUYt3YTj9UogGj9cKxt-T6rvtGOSnHwJDsagf7WHRw@mail.gmail.com>

I've been thinking for a while about how it would be pretty cool to
get a system that plays back a song multiple times altering it on
every run so in the end it's perfect. However, in my room, distortion
mostly comes from the room and objects within, so ...

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 12:41 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
> That would be a magic goal.  And probably transgressing every law of physics :-)
>
> What we did in a class D amp we designed as a demonstrator is first measure the elements causing distortion in the output signal and then dynamically calculate and add a compensation signal to it.  A bit like feed-forward does in an analogue amp.  A lot of DSP required though.  And you never get to perfect.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 28 January 2022 11:34
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>
> Can you create two signals so that the distortion harmonics are flipped, and thus cancel out completely?
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:44 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> > His THD isn't due to aliases, it's due to switching errors.   If you put two outputs in timesync with each other then you'd reduce noise by 3dB but the harmonic distortion would remain the same.  Offsetting one in time from the other means you have two smaller harmonic causing spikes of half the amplitude, which reduces the actual power in the harmonics ....  maybe :-)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> > Sent: 28 January 2022 10:38
> > To: Mike Bryant
> > Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> >
> > The aliases would still be reflecting off the same sampling frequency
> > - how would that have the effect of a higher sampling rate? Am I
> > missing something? Thanks
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:45 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
> > > > mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not
> > > > quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC,
> > > > but a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and
> > > > I2S DACs don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> > >
> > > Did you try running two systems in parallel with the second running half a sample behind and summing the pair ?   Might give a little bit performance as it would have the effect of an even higher sampling rate.
> >
>



From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Jan 28 14:25:53 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:25:53 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--cpTxzak73w_XKCFJeFmQ-GgyPyRzRYUCKY1C1S7FdNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--ou60pCXKJXLRyp8cGhwSQyYNo3Oz-wSE366vW5XOftQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b4147defe37c438ea3194fc1fa965052@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--cpTxzak73w_XKCFJeFmQ-GgyPyRzRYUCKY1C1S7FdNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3ECA20F-5DFF-4DDF-9730-8A2C2BFEEBF5@electricdruid.net>

That's kind-of the idea of the "linearisation" diodes on the 13700 OTA. They essentially provide an "anti-distortion" which cancels (some of) the later tanh distortion of the input stage. But it's two stages one after the other that cancel, rather than two signals that are added together that cancel like your example.

Tom


> On 28 Jan 2022, at 11:34, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Can you create two signals so that the distortion harmonics are
> flipped, and thus cancel out completely?
> 
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:44 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> 
>> His THD isn't due to aliases, it's due to switching errors.   If you put two outputs in timesync with each other then you'd reduce noise by 3dB but the harmonic distortion would remain the same.  Offsetting one in time from the other means you have two smaller harmonic causing spikes of half the amplitude, which reduces the actual power in the harmonics ....  maybe :-)
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 28 January 2022 10:38
>> To: Mike Bryant
>> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>> 
>> The aliases would still be reflecting off the same sampling frequency
>> - how would that have the effect of a higher sampling rate? Am I missing something? Thanks
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:45 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
>>>> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not
>>>> quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but
>>>> a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs
>>>> don't support 12MHz sample rates.
>>>> 
>>>> Eric
>>> 
>>> Did you try running two systems in parallel with the second running half a sample behind and summing the pair ?   Might give a little bit performance as it would have the effect of an even higher sampling rate.
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 16:19:49 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:19:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>

On 1/27/22 23:20, cheater cheater wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
>> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not quite
>> as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a few SMT
>> passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs don't support
>> 12MHz sample rates.
>>
>> Eric
> 
> Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github repository
> was very helpful learning a bunch more about your approach. Really
> nice of you to share, and those are some interesting results. I've had
> a few questions if you don't mind.
> 
> Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?

Yes.

> What was the performance at DC?

Didn't measure that - I don't see any reason it wouldn't be equivalent 
to the AC performance though. The back end is fully DC-coupled.

> How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the data
> comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at enough bit
> depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces required bit rate
> but, say, it could be post filter, or any other module)

This particular FPGA (iCE40UP5K in the QFN48 pkg) doesn't have a lot of 
I/O pins, so you'd be limited in that regard. Two pins / channel and 
roughly 32 uncommitted I/O so 16 chls. For more you could go to other 
families with larger pincounts - the cheapest ECP5 parts are available 
with 197 pins free, so 98 channels max, but then you'd likely be limited 
by the internal resources and would need to bump up to higher-capacity 
devices.

> Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or with a
> saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?

I've tried a few different types of FPGA-based ADCs - either with 
sigma-delta techniques or with PDM or charge-timing methods. So far I've 
found them to be fairly fiddly and not performing as well as inexpensive 
dedicated devices like the SPI ADC I used in the oscillator project. It 
may be possible to get good performance from such approaches but it's a 
trade-off in R&D time. For me it was simpler/easier to just buy something.

Eric

> 
>> On 1/27/22 14:44, Mike Bryant wrote:
>>> Thanks - that makes obvious sense now you mention it !!    P channel MOSFETs turn on very differently to N-channel - your method cancels this out.
>>>
>>> Can I ask what THD did you get to ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
>>> Sent: 27 January 2022 21:30
>>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>>>
>>> No secrets - this was a personal project to see how well it works.
>>> Details are here:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/emeb/up5k_osc
>>>
>>> TL;DR on the differential PDM: The generic FPGA output drivers have a bit of asymmetry in the rise/fall times which can cause some low level harmonic distortion. There are a couple of techniques for dealing with this - 1) ensuring there's always a rise and fall in every output period, and 2) using differential signalling to cancel the asymmetry. I tried various combinations and saw improvements for both. Overall I'd estimate there was about a 15-20dB improvement in THD.
>>>
>>> The output filter consists of a passive RC on each differential leg, then feeding into a diff-amp with additional 1-pole filtering that outputs a unipolar signal at modular synth levels. Since the clock rate was so high and the baseband signal bandwidth fairly low in comparison there wasn't much need for fancier filtering than that.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On 1/27/22 13:51, Mike Bryant wrote:
>>>> Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?


From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 16:25:47 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:25:47 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b139e7fb5d141e5ab0570aac3eae143@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <49116753-d724-583b-ac77-52cd94b99ef7@gmail.com>

Interesting idea, but I didn't try that. The external summing required 
starts to push the concept beyond the point of simplicity that initially 
made it attractive.

Eric

On 1/28/22 02:45, Mike Bryant wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
>> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not
>> quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a
>> few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs
>> don't support 12MHz sample rates.
>>
>> Eric
> 
> Did you try running two systems in parallel with the second running half a sample behind and summing the pair ?   Might give a little bit performance as it would have the effect of an even higher sampling rate.
> .
> 



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 16:54:20 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 16:54:20 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks. 12 MHz 1-bit is equivalent to 48 kHz at 8 bit. What do you
think would be necessary to bump this up to add 4 more bits? Seems
like using a 1-bit approach you'd need an FPGA able to output at 200
MHz... at which point layout becomes a problem. Do cost effective
FPGAs with that capability even exist? (never mind availability)

What made the ADCs fiddly?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 4:24 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> On 1/27/22 23:20, cheater cheater wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
> >> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not quite
> >> as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a few SMT
> >> passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs don't support
> >> 12MHz sample rates.
> >>
> >> Eric
> >
> > Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github repository
> > was very helpful learning a bunch more about your approach. Really
> > nice of you to share, and those are some interesting results. I've had
> > a few questions if you don't mind.
> >
> > Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?
>
> Yes.
>
> > What was the performance at DC?
>
> Didn't measure that - I don't see any reason it wouldn't be equivalent
> to the AC performance though. The back end is fully DC-coupled.
>
> > How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the data
> > comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at enough bit
> > depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces required bit rate
> > but, say, it could be post filter, or any other module)
>
> This particular FPGA (iCE40UP5K in the QFN48 pkg) doesn't have a lot of
> I/O pins, so you'd be limited in that regard. Two pins / channel and
> roughly 32 uncommitted I/O so 16 chls. For more you could go to other
> families with larger pincounts - the cheapest ECP5 parts are available
> with 197 pins free, so 98 channels max, but then you'd likely be limited
> by the internal resources and would need to bump up to higher-capacity
> devices.
>
> > Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or with a
> > saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?
>
> I've tried a few different types of FPGA-based ADCs - either with
> sigma-delta techniques or with PDM or charge-timing methods. So far I've
> found them to be fairly fiddly and not performing as well as inexpensive
> dedicated devices like the SPI ADC I used in the oscillator project. It
> may be possible to get good performance from such approaches but it's a
> trade-off in R&D time. For me it was simpler/easier to just buy something.
>
> Eric
>
> >
> >> On 1/27/22 14:44, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >>> Thanks - that makes obvious sense now you mention it !!    P channel MOSFETs turn on very differently to N-channel - your method cancels this out.
> >>>
> >>> Can I ask what THD did you get to ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> >>> Sent: 27 January 2022 21:30
> >>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> >>>
> >>> No secrets - this was a personal project to see how well it works.
> >>> Details are here:
> >>>
> >>> https://github.com/emeb/up5k_osc
> >>>
> >>> TL;DR on the differential PDM: The generic FPGA output drivers have a bit of asymmetry in the rise/fall times which can cause some low level harmonic distortion. There are a couple of techniques for dealing with this - 1) ensuring there's always a rise and fall in every output period, and 2) using differential signalling to cancel the asymmetry. I tried various combinations and saw improvements for both. Overall I'd estimate there was about a 15-20dB improvement in THD.
> >>>
> >>> The output filter consists of a passive RC on each differential leg, then feeding into a diff-amp with additional 1-pole filtering that outputs a unipolar signal at modular synth levels. Since the clock rate was so high and the baseband signal bandwidth fairly low in comparison there wasn't much need for fancier filtering than that.
> >>>
> >>> Eric
> >>>
> >>> On 1/27/22 13:51, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >>>> Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 17:08:24 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 17:08:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <1b4c7caee6e946d2bef61236c3c5cb3a@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+qbVc_G42aox1+C9ueX5SCwgOWkh=vu-oQy_Pcn0S9DLwiLNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2edf05091e4a32a3efe535ddbcdd53@futurehorizons.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1b4c7caee6e946d2bef61236c3c5cb3a@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--7+8DmFzuS39Lcxt9euC0wDz_=9wApVtUU28=HXEcnLg@mail.gmail.com>

yes, but then you're using 16 pins (or 32 for the balanced version)
per channel, leaving you with not much at all, which also sucks if you
want a massive amount of channels :)

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 5:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> No need for higher freqs.  Have a read of this
> http://www.openmusiclabs.com/learning/digital/pwm-dac/dual-pwm-circuits/index.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 28 January 2022 15:54
> To: Eric Brombaugh
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>
> Thanks. 12 MHz 1-bit is equivalent to 48 kHz at 8 bit. What do you think would be necessary to bump this up to add 4 more bits? Seems like using a 1-bit approach you'd need an FPGA able to output at 200 MHz... at which point layout becomes a problem. Do cost effective FPGAs with that capability even exist? (never mind availability)
>
> What made the ADCs fiddly?
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 4:24 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/27/22 23:20, cheater cheater wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> > > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
> > >> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not
> > >> quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but
> > >> a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S
> > >> DACs don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> > >>
> > >> Eric
> > >
> > > Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github
> > > repository was very helpful learning a bunch more about your
> > > approach. Really nice of you to share, and those are some
> > > interesting results. I've had a few questions if you don't mind.
> > >
> > > Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > What was the performance at DC?
> >
> > Didn't measure that - I don't see any reason it wouldn't be equivalent
> > to the AC performance though. The back end is fully DC-coupled.
> >
> > > How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the data
> > > comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at enough bit
> > > depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces required bit
> > > rate but, say, it could be post filter, or any other module)
> >
> > This particular FPGA (iCE40UP5K in the QFN48 pkg) doesn't have a lot
> > of I/O pins, so you'd be limited in that regard. Two pins / channel
> > and roughly 32 uncommitted I/O so 16 chls. For more you could go to
> > other families with larger pincounts - the cheapest ECP5 parts are
> > available with 197 pins free, so 98 channels max, but then you'd
> > likely be limited by the internal resources and would need to bump up
> > to higher-capacity devices.
> >
> > > Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or with
> > > a saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?
> >
> > I've tried a few different types of FPGA-based ADCs - either with
> > sigma-delta techniques or with PDM or charge-timing methods. So far
> > I've found them to be fairly fiddly and not performing as well as
> > inexpensive dedicated devices like the SPI ADC I used in the
> > oscillator project. It may be possible to get good performance from
> > such approaches but it's a trade-off in R&D time. For me it was simpler/easier to just buy something.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > >
> > >> On 1/27/22 14:44, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > >>> Thanks - that makes obvious sense now you mention it !!    P channel MOSFETs turn on very differently to N-channel - your method cancels this out.
> > >>>
> > >>> Can I ask what THD did you get to ?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf
> > >>> Of Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> > >>> Sent: 27 January 2022 21:30
> > >>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> > >>>
> > >>> No secrets - this was a personal project to see how well it works.
> > >>> Details are here:
> > >>>
> > >>> https://github.com/emeb/up5k_osc
> > >>>
> > >>> TL;DR on the differential PDM: The generic FPGA output drivers have a bit of asymmetry in the rise/fall times which can cause some low level harmonic distortion. There are a couple of techniques for dealing with this - 1) ensuring there's always a rise and fall in every output period, and 2) using differential signalling to cancel the asymmetry. I tried various combinations and saw improvements for both. Overall I'd estimate there was about a 15-20dB improvement in THD.
> > >>>
> > >>> The output filter consists of a passive RC on each differential leg, then feeding into a diff-amp with additional 1-pole filtering that outputs a unipolar signal at modular synth levels. Since the clock rate was so high and the baseband signal bandwidth fairly low in comparison there wasn't much need for fancier filtering than that.
> > >>>
> > >>> Eric
> > >>>
> > >>> On 1/27/22 13:51, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > >>>> Ok Eric, you've got me on this one ! :-)  If it's not a trade secret, what does the output filter look like such that differential PDM is needed, and how much improvement does it give over single ended ?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>



From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 17:34:49 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 09:34:49 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>

Because I'm using a sigma-delta approach to generating the PDM signals, 
there is some noise shaping going on and this system performs better 
than merely 12MHz/48kHz bits. I'm actually getting SNR that's 
approaching 16-bit performance.

I found the FPGA-only ADC approach fiddly because it suffers from a lot 
of the same nonlinearity issues seen in the PDM DAC methods, is very 
sensitive to layout and component selection and requires a fair bit of 
post-filtering to reduce noise. It's kinda like the singing dog - 
amazing that it works but not what you'd call "good".

Eric

On 1/28/22 08:54, cheater cheater wrote:
> Thanks. 12 MHz 1-bit is equivalent to 48 kHz at 8 bit. What do you
> think would be necessary to bump this up to add 4 more bits? Seems
> like using a 1-bit approach you'd need an FPGA able to output at 200
> MHz... at which point layout becomes a problem. Do cost effective
> FPGAs with that capability even exist? (never mind availability)
> 
> What made the ADCs fiddly?
> 
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 4:24 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 1/27/22 23:20, cheater cheater wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
>>>> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not quite
>>>> as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a few SMT
>>>> passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs don't support
>>>> 12MHz sample rates.
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>
>>> Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github repository
>>> was very helpful learning a bunch more about your approach. Really
>>> nice of you to share, and those are some interesting results. I've had
>>> a few questions if you don't mind.
>>>
>>> Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> What was the performance at DC?
>>
>> Didn't measure that - I don't see any reason it wouldn't be equivalent
>> to the AC performance though. The back end is fully DC-coupled.
>>
>>> How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the data
>>> comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at enough bit
>>> depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces required bit rate
>>> but, say, it could be post filter, or any other module)
>>
>> This particular FPGA (iCE40UP5K in the QFN48 pkg) doesn't have a lot of
>> I/O pins, so you'd be limited in that regard. Two pins / channel and
>> roughly 32 uncommitted I/O so 16 chls. For more you could go to other
>> families with larger pincounts - the cheapest ECP5 parts are available
>> with 197 pins free, so 98 channels max, but then you'd likely be limited
>> by the internal resources and would need to bump up to higher-capacity
>> devices.
>>
>>> Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or with a
>>> saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?
>>
>> I've tried a few different types of FPGA-based ADCs - either with
>> sigma-delta techniques or with PDM or charge-timing methods. So far I've
>> found them to be fairly fiddly and not performing as well as inexpensive
>> dedicated devices like the SPI ADC I used in the oscillator project. It
>> may be possible to get good performance from such approaches but it's a
>> trade-off in R&D time. For me it was simpler/easier to just buy something.


From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 19:57:22 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:57:22 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>

So you're getting SNR that's like 16 bit at 48 kHz? Really? That's
really, truly impressive. I heard 1 bit DACs had some magic in them
but this really brings the point to bear.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 5:38 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Because I'm using a sigma-delta approach to generating the PDM signals,
> there is some noise shaping going on and this system performs better
> than merely 12MHz/48kHz bits. I'm actually getting SNR that's
> approaching 16-bit performance.
>
> I found the FPGA-only ADC approach fiddly because it suffers from a lot
> of the same nonlinearity issues seen in the PDM DAC methods, is very
> sensitive to layout and component selection and requires a fair bit of
> post-filtering to reduce noise. It's kinda like the singing dog -
> amazing that it works but not what you'd call "good".
>
> Eric
>
> On 1/28/22 08:54, cheater cheater wrote:
> > Thanks. 12 MHz 1-bit is equivalent to 48 kHz at 8 bit. What do you
> > think would be necessary to bump this up to add 4 more bits? Seems
> > like using a 1-bit approach you'd need an FPGA able to output at 200
> > MHz... at which point layout becomes a problem. Do cost effective
> > FPGAs with that capability even exist? (never mind availability)
> >
> > What made the ADCs fiddly?
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 4:24 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 1/27/22 23:20, cheater cheater wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> >>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all the
> >>>> mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. Not quite
> >>>> as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio DAC, but a few SMT
> >>>> passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity and I2S DACs don't support
> >>>> 12MHz sample rates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Eric
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github repository
> >>> was very helpful learning a bunch more about your approach. Really
> >>> nice of you to share, and those are some interesting results. I've had
> >>> a few questions if you don't mind.
> >>>
> >>> Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >>> What was the performance at DC?
> >>
> >> Didn't measure that - I don't see any reason it wouldn't be equivalent
> >> to the AC performance though. The back end is fully DC-coupled.
> >>
> >>> How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the data
> >>> comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at enough bit
> >>> depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces required bit rate
> >>> but, say, it could be post filter, or any other module)
> >>
> >> This particular FPGA (iCE40UP5K in the QFN48 pkg) doesn't have a lot of
> >> I/O pins, so you'd be limited in that regard. Two pins / channel and
> >> roughly 32 uncommitted I/O so 16 chls. For more you could go to other
> >> families with larger pincounts - the cheapest ECP5 parts are available
> >> with 197 pins free, so 98 channels max, but then you'd likely be limited
> >> by the internal resources and would need to bump up to higher-capacity
> >> devices.
> >>
> >>> Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or with a
> >>> saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?
> >>
> >> I've tried a few different types of FPGA-based ADCs - either with
> >> sigma-delta techniques or with PDM or charge-timing methods. So far I've
> >> found them to be fairly fiddly and not performing as well as inexpensive
> >> dedicated devices like the SPI ADC I used in the oscillator project. It
> >> may be possible to get good performance from such approaches but it's a
> >> trade-off in R&D time. For me it was simpler/easier to just buy something.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 28 20:39:01 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:39:01 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>

You can get 18 to 20 bits out of a 1 bitter.  Sony did that in the early 90s.    It's only the 24 and 32(sic) ones that need multibit convertors.

It all depends on how sharp you can make the low frequency cutoff HP filter in the sigma-delta convertor.  They originally solved the cutoff problem using FIR filters which gave a huge delay (which doesn't matter for a CD player, etc, but is a killer for live music), then as semiconductor nodes shrunk gradually migrated to the current IIR filters that have massive cut-offs, almost no delay, and noise figures on a par with the background noise of the universe .... if you pay enough (and believe their specs :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: 28 January 2022 18:57
To: Eric Brombaugh
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

So you're getting SNR that's like 16 bit at 48 kHz? Really? That's really, truly impressive. I heard 1 bit DACs had some magic in them but this really brings the point to bear.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 5:38 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Because I'm using a sigma-delta approach to generating the PDM 
> signals, there is some noise shaping going on and this system performs 
> better than merely 12MHz/48kHz bits. I'm actually getting SNR that's 
> approaching 16-bit performance.
>
> I found the FPGA-only ADC approach fiddly because it suffers from a 
> lot of the same nonlinearity issues seen in the PDM DAC methods, is 
> very sensitive to layout and component selection and requires a fair 
> bit of post-filtering to reduce noise. It's kinda like the singing dog 
> - amazing that it works but not what you'd call "good".
>
> Eric
>
> On 1/28/22 08:54, cheater cheater wrote:
> > Thanks. 12 MHz 1-bit is equivalent to 48 kHz at 8 bit. What do you 
> > think would be necessary to bump this up to add 4 more bits? Seems 
> > like using a 1-bit approach you'd need an FPGA able to output at 200 
> > MHz... at which point layout becomes a problem. Do cost effective 
> > FPGAs with that capability even exist? (never mind availability)
> >
> > What made the ADCs fiddly?
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 4:24 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy 
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 1/27/22 23:20, cheater cheater wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy 
> >>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all 
> >>>> the mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB. 
> >>>> Not quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio 
> >>>> DAC, but a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity 
> >>>> and I2S DACs don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Eric
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github 
> >>> repository was very helpful learning a bunch more about your 
> >>> approach. Really nice of you to share, and those are some 
> >>> interesting results. I've had a few questions if you don't mind.
> >>>
> >>> Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >>> What was the performance at DC?
> >>
> >> Didn't measure that - I don't see any reason it wouldn't be 
> >> equivalent to the AC performance though. The back end is fully DC-coupled.
> >>
> >>> How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the data 
> >>> comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at enough 
> >>> bit depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces required 
> >>> bit rate but, say, it could be post filter, or any other module)
> >>
> >> This particular FPGA (iCE40UP5K in the QFN48 pkg) doesn't have a 
> >> lot of I/O pins, so you'd be limited in that regard. Two pins / 
> >> channel and roughly 32 uncommitted I/O so 16 chls. For more you 
> >> could go to other families with larger pincounts - the cheapest 
> >> ECP5 parts are available with 197 pins free, so 98 channels max, 
> >> but then you'd likely be limited by the internal resources and 
> >> would need to bump up to higher-capacity devices.
> >>
> >>> Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or 
> >>> with a saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?
> >>
> >> I've tried a few different types of FPGA-based ADCs - either with 
> >> sigma-delta techniques or with PDM or charge-timing methods. So far 
> >> I've found them to be fairly fiddly and not performing as well as 
> >> inexpensive dedicated devices like the SPI ADC I used in the 
> >> oscillator project. It may be possible to get good performance from 
> >> such approaches but it's a trade-off in R&D time. For me it was simpler/easier to just buy something.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
_______________________________________________
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 21:23:09 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 21:23:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>

Right, but they didn't do that on a run of the mill fpga, right? They
designed their own custom IC where everything was on one chip of
silicon - the digital output, the integrator circuit, etc - do I have
that right?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 8:39 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> You can get 18 to 20 bits out of a 1 bitter.  Sony did that in the early 90s.    It's only the 24 and 32(sic) ones that need multibit convertors.
>
> It all depends on how sharp you can make the low frequency cutoff HP filter in the sigma-delta convertor.  They originally solved the cutoff problem using FIR filters which gave a huge delay (which doesn't matter for a CD player, etc, but is a killer for live music), then as semiconductor nodes shrunk gradually migrated to the current IIR filters that have massive cut-offs, almost no delay, and noise figures on a par with the background noise of the universe .... if you pay enough (and believe their specs :-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 28 January 2022 18:57
> To: Eric Brombaugh
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>
> So you're getting SNR that's like 16 bit at 48 kHz? Really? That's really, truly impressive. I heard 1 bit DACs had some magic in them but this really brings the point to bear.
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 5:38 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Because I'm using a sigma-delta approach to generating the PDM
> > signals, there is some noise shaping going on and this system performs
> > better than merely 12MHz/48kHz bits. I'm actually getting SNR that's
> > approaching 16-bit performance.
> >
> > I found the FPGA-only ADC approach fiddly because it suffers from a
> > lot of the same nonlinearity issues seen in the PDM DAC methods, is
> > very sensitive to layout and component selection and requires a fair
> > bit of post-filtering to reduce noise. It's kinda like the singing dog
> > - amazing that it works but not what you'd call "good".
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On 1/28/22 08:54, cheater cheater wrote:
> > > Thanks. 12 MHz 1-bit is equivalent to 48 kHz at 8 bit. What do you
> > > think would be necessary to bump this up to add 4 more bits? Seems
> > > like using a 1-bit approach you'd need an FPGA able to output at 200
> > > MHz... at which point layout becomes a problem. Do cost effective
> > > FPGAs with that capability even exist? (never mind availability)
> > >
> > > What made the ADCs fiddly?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 4:24 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> > > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 1/27/22 23:20, cheater cheater wrote:
> > >>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> > >>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all
> > >>>> the mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB.
> > >>>> Not quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio
> > >>>> DAC, but a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & simplicity
> > >>>> and I2S DACs don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Eric
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github
> > >>> repository was very helpful learning a bunch more about your
> > >>> approach. Really nice of you to share, and those are some
> > >>> interesting results. I've had a few questions if you don't mind.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?
> > >>
> > >> Yes.
> > >>
> > >>> What was the performance at DC?
> > >>
> > >> Didn't measure that - I don't see any reason it wouldn't be
> > >> equivalent to the AC performance though. The back end is fully DC-coupled.
> > >>
> > >>> How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the data
> > >>> comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at enough
> > >>> bit depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces required
> > >>> bit rate but, say, it could be post filter, or any other module)
> > >>
> > >> This particular FPGA (iCE40UP5K in the QFN48 pkg) doesn't have a
> > >> lot of I/O pins, so you'd be limited in that regard. Two pins /
> > >> channel and roughly 32 uncommitted I/O so 16 chls. For more you
> > >> could go to other families with larger pincounts - the cheapest
> > >> ECP5 parts are available with 197 pins free, so 98 channels max,
> > >> but then you'd likely be limited by the internal resources and
> > >> would need to bump up to higher-capacity devices.
> > >>
> > >>> Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or
> > >>> with a saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?
> > >>
> > >> I've tried a few different types of FPGA-based ADCs - either with
> > >> sigma-delta techniques or with PDM or charge-timing methods. So far
> > >> I've found them to be fairly fiddly and not performing as well as
> > >> inexpensive dedicated devices like the SPI ADC I used in the
> > >> oscillator project. It may be possible to get good performance from
> > >> such approaches but it's a trade-off in R&D time. For me it was simpler/easier to just buy something.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>



From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Fri Jan 28 22:16:01 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 16:16:01 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] 1-quadrant multiplier with 2164
In-Reply-To: <1B921EE74B964B5FAFDA5FBAB15B26FD@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe02T6TbTZQ_Sm-gApeOM3CNuM5OFVniFuEtRJiw=f6tdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2Txe0io2CL7X-kjGPAa2K+BSOhqj24OQ2cj_3fLYMPL+FNJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+C0FkYRwe+Rnw_ErBRdHL5=DNMvQ8ouoN+7mRi4KLSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPx-PW5b+oeZhduvFtfF8UYiB0eqRnzTRR8Hj188wBznv8wYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMxJrpwXwPaGsXkfcEtQKxZhon7rYVxcUxuEuaNcvN=10Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8WEFAW-v=1x2vbw-DNskuL=WQ2_U4H+sqvvRw1z41EpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A2005EE5F0640B08E1266A869A5C4EF@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--oPLc13kA8rsguwCFyYdYODQsucu2FJ98JmPBmV-=+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <276740922E6342F4A2C1559680B8816A@david78c70950b>
 <1379177A-62E8-4F38-8E83-63003EA373BF@scale.la>
 <326E7E0060724ACFAB59B8D2130B3464@david78c70950b>
 <CAGn5V--TWstqXPurYHfwy8ooxfH=M0NV_6QtO93vooWrUM5RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F475CDA187F24C5582DCC5557E044748@david78c70950b>
 <d43742cd-6d80-9235-59f9-ecc4f9b16983@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <E54F992EC9804261B98527B86387C85E@david78c70950b>
 <c22fc99f-98da-81d5-3d13-810ace5266f4@mikebeauchamp.com>
 <092184c1-7863-d8b5-df3f-9935189d5	1c0@go2.pl>
 <1B921EE74B964B5FAFDA5FBAB15B26FD@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <6E4F6328-B541-4BA5-A3A8-421857814B7D@gmail.com>


> On Jan 27, 2022, at 1:23 PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Your customers obviously suck.  Get better ones. 


For a moment a there I thought this was a post by Eric Barbour. Then I realized that you used the second-person singular possessive pronoun.


> On Jan 27, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Gordonjcp <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:
> 
> Now M*gn*s *rg*n B**ld*rs on the other hand... :-D  Man they caused me a few headaches.

Definitely Eric. 

FWIW, I stuffed the PC boards for 18 Metasonix TM-2s. I didn't make a single mistake and he told me it was the best soldering he'd ever seen (or words to that effect).


Now I need someone to stuff boards for me. Unfortunately, my budget doesn't include manual labor.  8/


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor?

?And if a message comes from Balaam?s ass, analyze the message. Don?t worship an ass.??Dr. Gene Scott, circa 1985

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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jan 28 22:25:02 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 21:25:02 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <21ffaf70-7f5a-b2f4-4cf5-13af3d9bdac1@gmail.com>
 <11d04a5cd88b42a892b0e50e2f80e81b@futurehorizons.com>
 <7b22025f-fcbe-20bd-9929-15123b23f858@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8g4pjmUzLoKU_S17tH95LUEyLZ3Mc1mE8F0h1Abk27Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <33ca0533-4cb2-4287-9282-9c0ec48ea753@gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32aa5fab24944e2187c944ba0f69a683@futurehorizons.com>

Yes.  But if you put the sampler and comparator well away from the FPGA to avoid the noise, and smoothed the feedback well, you could get similar performance.

When sigma-delta was first proposed someone at the place I worked built a demonstrator using 4000 series CMOS.  But it got killed by someone touching it without a wristband :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 28 January 2022 20:23
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform

Right, but they didn't do that on a run of the mill fpga, right? They designed their own custom IC where everything was on one chip of silicon - the digital output, the integrator circuit, etc - do I have that right?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 8:39 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> You can get 18 to 20 bits out of a 1 bitter.  Sony did that in the early 90s.    It's only the 24 and 32(sic) ones that need multibit convertors.
>
> It all depends on how sharp you can make the low frequency cutoff HP 
> filter in the sigma-delta convertor.  They originally solved the 
> cutoff problem using FIR filters which gave a huge delay (which 
> doesn't matter for a CD player, etc, but is a killer for live music), 
> then as semiconductor nodes shrunk gradually migrated to the current 
> IIR filters that have massive cut-offs, almost no delay, and noise 
> figures on a par with the background noise of the universe .... if you 
> pay enough (and believe their specs :-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 28 January 2022 18:57
> To: Eric Brombaugh
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>
> So you're getting SNR that's like 16 bit at 48 kHz? Really? That's really, truly impressive. I heard 1 bit DACs had some magic in them but this really brings the point to bear.
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 5:38 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Because I'm using a sigma-delta approach to generating the PDM 
> > signals, there is some noise shaping going on and this system 
> > performs better than merely 12MHz/48kHz bits. I'm actually getting 
> > SNR that's approaching 16-bit performance.
> >
> > I found the FPGA-only ADC approach fiddly because it suffers from a 
> > lot of the same nonlinearity issues seen in the PDM DAC methods, is 
> > very sensitive to layout and component selection and requires a fair 
> > bit of post-filtering to reduce noise. It's kinda like the singing 
> > dog
> > - amazing that it works but not what you'd call "good".
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On 1/28/22 08:54, cheater cheater wrote:
> > > Thanks. 12 MHz 1-bit is equivalent to 48 kHz at 8 bit. What do you 
> > > think would be necessary to bump this up to add 4 more bits? Seems 
> > > like using a 1-bit approach you'd need an FPGA able to output at 
> > > 200 MHz... at which point layout becomes a problem. Do cost 
> > > effective FPGAs with that capability even exist? (never mind 
> > > availability)
> > >
> > > What made the ADCs fiddly?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 4:24 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy 
> > > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 1/27/22 23:20, cheater cheater wrote:
> > >>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy 
> > >>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I was seeing harmonics down slightly better than 80dB with all 
> > >>>> the mitigation measures active. Without it was more like 60-65dB.
> > >>>> Not quite as good as even an inexpensive sigma-delta I2S audio 
> > >>>> DAC, but a few SMT passive parts beat that for cost & 
> > >>>> simplicity and I2S DACs don't support 12MHz sample rates.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Eric
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the write-up, that's some great info. The github 
> > >>> repository was very helpful learning a bunch more about your 
> > >>> approach. Really nice of you to share, and those are some 
> > >>> interesting results. I've had a few questions if you don't mind.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regarding the results - really impressive. Is that 12 MHz at 1 bit?
> > >>
> > >> Yes.
> > >>
> > >>> What was the performance at DC?
> > >>
> > >> Didn't measure that - I don't see any reason it wouldn't be 
> > >> equivalent to the AC performance though. The back end is fully DC-coupled.
> > >>
> > >>> How many channels can you run on that ICE5LP4K? Assuming the 
> > >>> data comes from somewhere else and you want DC+Audio rates at 
> > >>> enough bit depth for a synth signal (pre-VCA/ENV which reduces 
> > >>> required bit rate but, say, it could be post filter, or any 
> > >>> other module)
> > >>
> > >> This particular FPGA (iCE40UP5K in the QFN48 pkg) doesn't have a 
> > >> lot of I/O pins, so you'd be limited in that regard. Two pins / 
> > >> channel and roughly 32 uncommitted I/O so 16 chls. For more you 
> > >> could go to other families with larger pincounts - the cheapest
> > >> ECP5 parts are available with 197 pins free, so 98 channels max, 
> > >> but then you'd likely be limited by the internal resources and 
> > >> would need to bump up to higher-capacity devices.
> > >>
> > >>> Do you think the same method could be used with a comparator or 
> > >>> with a saw oscillator to create a similarly inexpensive and good ADC?
> > >>
> > >> I've tried a few different types of FPGA-based ADCs - either with 
> > >> sigma-delta techniques or with PDM or charge-timing methods. So 
> > >> far I've found them to be fairly fiddly and not performing as 
> > >> well as inexpensive dedicated devices like the SPI ADC I used in 
> > >> the oscillator project. It may be possible to get good 
> > >> performance from such approaches but it's a trade-off in R&D time. For me it was simpler/easier to just buy something.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>




From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Sat Jan 29 00:45:33 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 16:45:33 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <32aa5fab24944e2187c944ba0f69a683@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <32aa5fab24944e2187c944ba0f69a683@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <cfddd244-1b7b-6b09-5c72-d795ab25a58f@gmail.com>

Probably a good time to repost this link:

http://all-electric.com/b&c.html

Quirky, old chips, but there's a lot to learn from here.

Eric

On 1/28/22 14:25, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Yes.  But if you put the sampler and comparator well away from the FPGA to avoid the noise, and smoothed the feedback well, you could get similar performance.
> 
> When sigma-delta was first proposed someone at the place I worked built a demonstrator using 4000 series CMOS.  But it got killed by someone touching it without a wristband :-)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 28 January 2022 20:23
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> 
> Right, but they didn't do that on a run of the mill fpga, right? They designed their own custom IC where everything was on one chip of silicon - the digital output, the integrator circuit, etc - do I have that right?
> 


From synthdiy at adambaby.com  Sat Jan 29 01:37:37 2022
From: synthdiy at adambaby.com (Adam Inglis (synthDIY))
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:37:37 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <cfddd244-1b7b-6b09-5c72-d795ab25a58f@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <32aa5fab24944e2187c944ba0f69a683@futurehorizons.com>
 <cfddd244-1b7b-6b09-5c72-d795ab25a58f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D670341-21C7-4DD3-87AE-7DD8AD7B47E2@adambaby.com>



> On 29 Jan 2022, at 09:45, Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Probably a good time to repost this link:
> 
> http://all-electric.com/b&c.html
> 
> Quirky, old chips, but there's a lot to learn from here.
> 

haha what a blast from the past! Haven?t visited that website in many years? and it hasn?t changed AT ALL!
Some of the pages have those ?magic eye? 3D backgrounds?.  where are my glow sticks?

A




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan 29 12:47:48 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:47:48 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <cfddd244-1b7b-6b09-5c72-d795ab25a58f@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <32aa5fab24944e2187c944ba0f69a683@futurehorizons.com>
 <cfddd244-1b7b-6b09-5c72-d795ab25a58f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9K_MMk+NAbrV7cRUMANPmFDvy69Ap-VKhtfnSJHSU5Hg@mail.gmail.com>

Cool link Eric. Is there something on that page related to what we're
talking about? Not meant sarcastically, it's just a bit of a mess ...
I think I recognize it from years ago but not sure :)

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:49 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Probably a good time to repost this link:
>
> http://all-electric.com/b&c.html
>
> Quirky, old chips, but there's a lot to learn from here.
>
> Eric
>
> On 1/28/22 14:25, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > Yes.  But if you put the sampler and comparator well away from the FPGA to avoid the noise, and smoothed the feedback well, you could get similar performance.
> >
> > When sigma-delta was first proposed someone at the place I worked built a demonstrator using 4000 series CMOS.  But it got killed by someone touching it without a wristband :-)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> > Sent: 28 January 2022 20:23
> > To: Mike Bryant
> > Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> >
> > Right, but they didn't do that on a run of the mill fpga, right? They designed their own custom IC where everything was on one chip of silicon - the digital output, the integrator circuit, etc - do I have that right?
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jan 29 12:49:55 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:49:55 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9K_MMk+NAbrV7cRUMANPmFDvy69Ap-VKhtfnSJHSU5Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0faee65d54e246e1ba9fbe736ac62e27@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-_D8EF_SgRUXwyW=C4vdS+2OLc7bqe1zs1vDfFKHUEY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <32aa5fab24944e2187c944ba0f69a683@futurehorizons.com>
 <cfddd244-1b7b-6b09-5c72-d795ab25a58f@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9K_MMk+NAbrV7cRUMANPmFDvy69Ap-VKhtfnSJHSU5Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_F_t99iucQQ81SqLoMQkTapVwD7ncvi3V2zThROHXcpA@mail.gmail.com>

This link might well be suited for what David is doing...

http://all-electric.com/schematic/res_trim.htm

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:47 PM cheater cheater
<cheater00social at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Cool link Eric. Is there something on that page related to what we're
> talking about? Not meant sarcastically, it's just a bit of a mess ...
> I think I recognize it from years ago but not sure :)
>
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:49 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Probably a good time to repost this link:
> >
> > http://all-electric.com/b&c.html
> >
> > Quirky, old chips, but there's a lot to learn from here.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On 1/28/22 14:25, Mike Bryant wrote:
> > > Yes.  But if you put the sampler and comparator well away from the FPGA to avoid the noise, and smoothed the feedback well, you could get similar performance.
> > >
> > > When sigma-delta was first proposed someone at the place I worked built a demonstrator using 4000 series CMOS.  But it got killed by someone touching it without a wristband :-)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> > > Sent: 28 January 2022 20:23
> > > To: Mike Bryant
> > > Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> > >
> > > Right, but they didn't do that on a run of the mill fpga, right? They designed their own custom IC where everything was on one chip of silicon - the digital output, the integrator circuit, etc - do I have that right?
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Sat Jan 29 13:34:12 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:34:12 -0000
Subject: [sdiy] Deep thoughts on Old drum machines: the "VCA"
In-Reply-To: <48B5EBE0-F5F1-44B9-B5F6-60F802203E13@adambaby.com>
References: <9084E465-3869-4BB5-9B1A-F7454100CB0A@me.com>
 <BEBEFBAE-1296-42FD-B247-A64BF5AD2D70@audiobanshee.com>
 <CAP92RBWVU2t241hP6yeYsK5AfoQG9ox1Ez1AKv8nqcB-touh6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <48B5EBE0-F5F1-44B9-B5F6-60F802203E13@adambaby.com>
Message-ID: <B832E55550C54F6288C641B3E8D6D112@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>

> From: Adam Inglis (synthDIY)
>
> ...When I?m editing recordings at the waveform level in Cubase, I?ve 
> noticed that my most, er? ?characterful' synths have the most waveform 
> distortion about the zero axis (sorry, can?t think of the technical term!) 
> i.e. the waveform will be skewed more above or below the line (Korg 700, 
> TB-303, SH-2000) whereas more polite sounding synths are perfectly 
> symmetrical about this axis. I?m assuming there is some kind of DC offset 
> going on there, but that may not be the correct explanation
>
> A

It could be a DC offset...  However, any DC offset inside the synth would 
fairly quickly get converted to a decaying DC transient by the numerous AC 
coupling capacitors in the audio chain before it gets digitised.  So if by 
"characterful" you mean it has a thump or "key click" at the onset, it could 
well be a DC transient thing that you're seeing.

The other thing that can make waveforms *look* asymmetrical about the time 
axis, is short pulse waveforms...  If you dial up a nasal sounding narrow 
pulse waveform from your synth and then record that and look at the waveform 
you will probably see that it tends to have a greater excursion in one 
direction than the other.  (Whether this is the positive or negative 
direction depends on how many times the signal gets inverted before it gets 
digitised and whether the original duty ratio was like 10% or like 90%!) 
This is because the DC component of the pulse waveform doesn't make it 
through to the recording...  Therefore the average value over one cycle must 
be zero and the waveform moves up or down accordingly so that the areas 
enclosed under the wide part and the narrow part are equal.  Conversely, 
waveforms like Square, Saw, Triangle, Sine tend to look more symmetrical 
about the time axis with roughly equal excursions in the positive and 
negative directions, because they don't have to move up or down in order to 
have an average of zero and no DC offset.

However, in the case where a low-pitch sawtooth is being passed through lots 
of AC coupling (high-pass filter action like that in the TB-303) it can 
start to look less like a textbook sawtooth and more like a step in one 
direction followed by an exponential decay after it.  More like the blue or 
red waveforms, and less like the "textbook" green sawtooth in this pic that 
I rather conveniently found online:

https://www.mdpi.com/instruments/instruments-03-00003/article_deploy/html/images/instruments-03-00003-g007.png

This happens not due to DC offset, but because the high-pass filter action 
starts to mess with the phases of the harmonics that make up the sawtooth if 
you play sufficiently low pitched notes.

I wouldn't like to say how much influence this has on the character of the 
pure sawtooth alone, but it definitely has a profound effect on how it 
sounds when you apply lots of distortion!!!

-Richie, 


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Sat Jan 29 17:27:45 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:27:45 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9K_MMk+NAbrV7cRUMANPmFDvy69Ap-VKhtfnSJHSU5Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <32aa5fab24944e2187c944ba0f69a683@futurehorizons.com>
 <cfddd244-1b7b-6b09-5c72-d795ab25a58f@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9K_MMk+NAbrV7cRUMANPmFDvy69Ap-VKhtfnSJHSU5Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dddc427e-5b8b-9e27-c83a-2b31a9cf6658@gmail.com>

That All-Electric link points to a digital delay that uses a 1-bit CMOS 
implementation of a sigma-delta ADC & DAC. That's a direct follow-up to 
the comment Mike Bryant made about his colleagues building such a 
circuit, and related to the PDM techniques I've done in FPGAs which we 
were discussing.

Eric

On 1/29/22 04:47, cheater cheater wrote:
> Cool link Eric. Is there something on that page related to what we're
> talking about? Not meant sarcastically, it's just a bit of a mess ...
> I think I recognize it from years ago but not sure :)
> 
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:49 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Probably a good time to repost this link:
>>
>> http://all-electric.com/b&c.html
>>
>> Quirky, old chips, but there's a lot to learn from here.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On 1/28/22 14:25, Mike Bryant wrote:
>>> Yes.  But if you put the sampler and comparator well away from the FPGA to avoid the noise, and smoothed the feedback well, you could get similar performance.
>>>
>>> When sigma-delta was first proposed someone at the place I worked built a demonstrator using 4000 series CMOS.  But it got killed by someone touching it without a wristband :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: 28 January 2022 20:23
>>> To: Mike Bryant
>>> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
>>>
>>> Right, but they didn't do that on a run of the mill fpga, right? They designed their own custom IC where everything was on one chip of silicon - the digital output, the integrator circuit, etc - do I have that right?
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> .
> 



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Mon Jan 31 12:03:45 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 12:03:45 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
In-Reply-To: <dddc427e-5b8b-9e27-c83a-2b31a9cf6658@gmail.com>
References: <CALQanAKME59MjJ1eh_vMAVysaZvC+y1cTkAfijBPVv_sdbcXiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5f557e0bfebf4a7c8a585238924af6c1@futurehorizons.com>
 <8e4bc767-0e27-8712-9786-1480e2b2be2b@gmail.com>
 <ec8c4e9e937b40fc94a980a10c6aaa42@futurehorizons.com>
 <b6634fd6-969f-43b4-3c54-ab3daeeed8d4@gmail.com>
 <3969243d4b0c4aff8c466d5bffe73b73@futurehorizons.com>
 <1e19b721-6196-839d-9feb-9e0b1a134ed9@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-8UmGE-sAJkA_uNReUY-UvU6BeUE9_+9NqRfzWYT7Eb2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <967a6964-b4d8-6a68-5615-77976d50f766@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_wkz0R71Fc3XvRRAs68VTSJSrpqAeM1RR-oW77341eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <27ff7037-4b1e-19dc-d7e0-50b9bed598c8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V--czcDhcN3+kkYMvLhD7r3pndjr_Q6GTt9iTbV=CS=k7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9d0fa1bc6b141429e937d99cb15e3fd@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9rWih0kG-Tn+g3Zb2F0O8jot-xq0TgN=muJ5HDuUfwPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <32aa5fab24944e2187c944ba0f69a683@futurehorizons.com>
 <cfddd244-1b7b-6b09-5c72-d795ab25a58f@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9K_MMk+NAbrV7cRUMANPmFDvy69Ap-VKhtfnSJHSU5Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dddc427e-5b8b-9e27-c83a-2b31a9cf6658@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8oogwFrqmKB6FyN16NUwH15MWZ=zLd=O8mpO+gN9D_iA@mail.gmail.com>

Gotcha, found it, thanks! Glad I asked - I glanced over it when I
first visited the link.

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 5:27 PM Eric Brombaugh <ebrombaugh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> That All-Electric link points to a digital delay that uses a 1-bit CMOS
> implementation of a sigma-delta ADC & DAC. That's a direct follow-up to
> the comment Mike Bryant made about his colleagues building such a
> circuit, and related to the PDM techniques I've done in FPGAs which we
> were discussing.
>
> Eric
>
> On 1/29/22 04:47, cheater cheater wrote:
> > Cool link Eric. Is there something on that page related to what we're
> > talking about? Not meant sarcastically, it's just a bit of a mess ...
> > I think I recognize it from years ago but not sure :)
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:49 AM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Probably a good time to repost this link:
> >>
> >> http://all-electric.com/b&c.html
> >>
> >> Quirky, old chips, but there's a lot to learn from here.
> >>
> >> Eric
> >>
> >> On 1/28/22 14:25, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >>> Yes.  But if you put the sampler and comparator well away from the FPGA to avoid the noise, and smoothed the feedback well, you could get similar performance.
> >>>
> >>> When sigma-delta was first proposed someone at the place I worked built a demonstrator using 4000 series CMOS.  But it got killed by someone touching it without a wristband :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: 28 January 2022 20:23
> >>> To: Mike Bryant
> >>> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Electrosmith Eurorack DSP platform
> >>>
> >>> Right, but they didn't do that on a run of the mill fpga, right? They designed their own custom IC where everything was on one chip of silicon - the digital output, the integrator circuit, etc - do I have that right?
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > .
> >
>


From vladoman at gmail.com  Mon Jan 31 13:09:58 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 13:09:58 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] move over you 32 bit DACs ...
Message-ID: <55b1be46-b497-8f96-dc6f-34ee45a44bd7@gmail.com>

the PCM 64-bit/1536kHz boys are here:

https://www.akm.com/eu/en/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4191eq/


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jan 31 14:18:04 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 13:18:04 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] move over you 32 bit DACs ...
In-Reply-To: <55b1be46-b497-8f96-dc6f-34ee45a44bd7@gmail.com>
References: <55b1be46-b497-8f96-dc6f-34ee45a44bd7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <da28194257dc454e88533362de9e7a15@futurehorizons.com>

Hehe.   It's just a digital converter.   No analogue signals in sight.  

As soon as you add in the DAC you're back to -128dB noise, basically Johnson noise of the output impedance and/or background noise of the universe depending on if you're an engineer or scientist, plus a little bit.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Vladimir Pantelic via Synth-diy
Sent: 31 January 2022 12:10
To: Synth Diy
Subject: [sdiy] move over you 32 bit DACs ...

the PCM 64-bit/1536kHz boys are here:

https://www.akm.com/eu/en/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4191eq/
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From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jan 31 14:39:49 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:39:49 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] move over you 32 bit DACs ...
In-Reply-To: <55b1be46-b497-8f96-dc6f-34ee45a44bd7@gmail.com>
References: <55b1be46-b497-8f96-dc6f-34ee45a44bd7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <119a43b6-7d20-6eed-9139-773515a9296c@go2.pl>

It's not even a DAC, but just the modulator and still claims barely 
150dB S/N? That's not even 32 bits by far!
Also it doesn't claim 64-bit audio input, just that the filter is 
working with 64-bit words.

Is it good idea to start audiophile DAC company now?

Roman

W dniu 2022-01-31 o?13:09, Vladimir Pantelic via Synth-diy pisze:
> the PCM 64-bit/1536kHz boys are here:
> 
> https://www.akm.com/eu/en/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4191eq/
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From tom.corbitt at gmail.com  Mon Jan 31 15:41:36 2022
From: tom.corbitt at gmail.com (Tom Corbitt)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 09:41:36 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] move over you 32 bit DACs ...
In-Reply-To: <119a43b6-7d20-6eed-9139-773515a9296c@go2.pl>
References: <55b1be46-b497-8f96-dc6f-34ee45a44bd7@gmail.com>
 <119a43b6-7d20-6eed-9139-773515a9296c@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <CAGH9ZXO5eDc7XM9uV-ynQyHKwoVGSa_wTVX89DKMfrmb6-53Sg@mail.gmail.com>

Bits? Who needs bits? They're using VELVETSOUND(tm).

Per their website:  "A faithful re-creation beyond any
numerical representation"

https://velvetsound.akm.com/us/en/

Tom C

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 8:43 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:

> It's not even a DAC, but just the modulator and still claims barely
> 150dB S/N? That's not even 32 bits by far!
> Also it doesn't claim 64-bit audio input, just that the filter is
> working with 64-bit words.
>
> Is it good idea to start audiophile DAC company now?
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-01-31 o 13:09, Vladimir Pantelic via Synth-diy pisze:
> > the PCM 64-bit/1536kHz boys are here:
> >
> > https://www.akm.com/eu/en/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4191eq/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From music at artxtek.com  Mon Jan 31 19:08:29 2022
From: music at artxtek.com (music at artxtek.com)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 18:08:29 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Kurzweil K2000 upgrade
Message-ID: <951904ca0acd3784c6237f542e6ac999@artxtek.com>

Hi All

I recently acquired a Kurzweil K2000 from a local charity shop.
It is in excellent condition, back-light is still bright and functional, however it only has OS version 1.0 Calvin so I decided to try and upgrade it.

I found the site DBWBP.com and downloaded the v3.87C Engine images and the Setup images which I have burned to EPROMS, but when I put them in the K2000, it boots but cannot find the Setup ROMs. I checked the jumper settings and I have a Rev A Engine board that only has JP1 no JP7.

Much searching the internet located a Service document that stated that the PSEUDO and GODOT GAL chips also need an upgrade to PSEUDO v4 and GODOT v5, currently I have PSEUDO v2 and GODOT v3.
The DBWBP.com site has images from a K2000R for PSEUDO v5 and GODOT v5.
Can anyone advise if these will work or where I can find images for PSEUDO v4 and GODOT v5 that will work in a K2000 running OS v3.87?

Regards Tony
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