From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Wed Jun  1 10:45:53 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 09:45:53 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Analogue 3D Raycasting
In-Reply-To: <EDF13511-93FB-42A4-B72F-58BBBE7041B4@stuyts.nl>
References: <CAGn5V-9EJmHM9_x_k9Fv6xAjvWH1jjNDCcATDoN_kyGG4HpLtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_TBs0JXkvhURG-MfWt9ggg+FaMefZWYLmx=ekSAD0_KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDF13511-93FB-42A4-B72F-58BBBE7041B4@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <78B2109DAECB461589724193D48FE0EE@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>

That is cool!  Thanks for sharing!

-Richie,



-----Original Message----- 
From: Ben Stuyts
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2022 11:16 PM
To: cheater cheater
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Analogue 3D Raycasting

Indeed, amazing!

Ben

> On 30 May 2022, at 19:01, cheater cheater via Synth-diy 
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> The description links to a pdf writeup that includes (partial) schematics, 
> too
>
> On Mon, May 30, 2022 at 7:01 PM cheater cheater
> <cheater00social at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Raycasting like in Wolfenstein 3D, fully in analog... I thought
>> someone would enjoy it...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seyscgfgA0E
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


_______________________________________________
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http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org 


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Wed Jun  1 15:58:13 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 15:58:13 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Analogue 3D Raycasting
In-Reply-To: <78B2109DAECB461589724193D48FE0EE@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
References: <CAGn5V-9EJmHM9_x_k9Fv6xAjvWH1jjNDCcATDoN_kyGG4HpLtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_TBs0JXkvhURG-MfWt9ggg+FaMefZWYLmx=ekSAD0_KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDF13511-93FB-42A4-B72F-58BBBE7041B4@stuyts.nl>
 <78B2109DAECB461589724193D48FE0EE@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-_uT5hU5V1tp348R1Gy0YO23KJPAwOPE2y_HTCTPYApbg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm kiiinda having trouble with it being "analog" given that it's
actually to a large extent digital ... but it's still a fun project.
Kind of like a direct-to-tv special-purpose GPU.

On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 10:45 AM Richie Burnett
<rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
>
> That is cool!  Thanks for sharing!
>
> -Richie,
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ben Stuyts
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2022 11:16 PM
> To: cheater cheater
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Analogue 3D Raycasting
>
> Indeed, amazing!
>
> Ben
>
> > On 30 May 2022, at 19:01, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > The description links to a pdf writeup that includes (partial) schematics,
> > too
> >
> > On Mon, May 30, 2022 at 7:01 PM cheater cheater
> > <cheater00social at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Raycasting like in Wolfenstein 3D, fully in analog... I thought
> >> someone would enjoy it...
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seyscgfgA0E
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>


From quincas at gmail.com  Wed Jun  1 19:40:49 2022
From: quincas at gmail.com (Quincas Moreira)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 12:40:49 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Analogue 3D Raycasting
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-_uT5hU5V1tp348R1Gy0YO23KJPAwOPE2y_HTCTPYApbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-9EJmHM9_x_k9Fv6xAjvWH1jjNDCcATDoN_kyGG4HpLtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-_TBs0JXkvhURG-MfWt9ggg+FaMefZWYLmx=ekSAD0_KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDF13511-93FB-42A4-B72F-58BBBE7041B4@stuyts.nl>
 <78B2109DAECB461589724193D48FE0EE@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CAGn5V-_uT5hU5V1tp348R1Gy0YO23KJPAwOPE2y_HTCTPYApbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+u0JtkQMMzBfpzeC9MLKt=pCUz_OaE=_twXZN_Ma-xhMsHbfg@mail.gmail.com>

I think analog in this case refers to the fact that it generates analog
video, not DV

On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 9:03 AM cheater cheater via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> I'm kiiinda having trouble with it being "analog" given that it's
> actually to a large extent digital ... but it's still a fun project.
> Kind of like a direct-to-tv special-purpose GPU.
>
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 10:45 AM Richie Burnett
> <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > That is cool!  Thanks for sharing!
> >
> > -Richie,
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ben Stuyts
> > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2022 11:16 PM
> > To: cheater cheater
> > Cc: synth-diy
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Analogue 3D Raycasting
> >
> > Indeed, amazing!
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > > On 30 May 2022, at 19:01, cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > The description links to a pdf writeup that includes (partial)
> schematics,
> > > too
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 30, 2022 at 7:01 PM cheater cheater
> > > <cheater00social at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Raycasting like in Wolfenstein 3D, fully in analog... I thought
> > >> someone would enjoy it...
> > >>
> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seyscgfgA0E
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


-- 
[image: QMA]

Quincas Moreira
Director | QMA
mobile:  5534988825
site:  quincasmoreira.com
email:  quincas at gmail.com
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From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Jun  2 05:06:23 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:06:23 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Soldering races (was something else)
Message-ID: <09709496324040B7B9BC3EA4542C947C@david78c70950b>

Hey Team,
 
You may remember that I started a subthread about soldering through-hole vs
SMD.  Well, today I decided to actually time myself with a stopwatch.
 
I timed two different sets of through-hole resistors.
 
The first set was 60 of all one value (10k) that I buy in boxes of 5000 on
tape, so I can bend and cut them very quickly.  My system is as follows:
 
1) I cut 5 strips of 12 resistors each from the box.
2) I bend the strips in half so that the resistors are close packed (they
come spaced out).
3) I use long straight needle-nose pliers to bend all 12 resistors at once,
about 2 mm from the resistor body on both sides.  This gives 0.4" lead
spacing.
4) I cut all of the leads (in groups of 4) so that about 1 cm remains on
each side.
5) I stuff all of the resistors, being careful to orient them all in the
same direction.
6) I solder them all.
7) I snip them all.
8) I inspect against a strong light.
 
The entire process for those 60 resistors (on two different PCBs) took
17:40.  That's about 18 seconds per resistor.  This is a little longer than
I was expecting, but I am soldering a little slower these days.  It seems
that I'm having a little bit of a problem getting the solder to flow, so
each joint takes maybe one second longer than it should.  I think my
(Chinese) solder skimped a little on the flux.
 
The second set was 59 of all different values, from two different boxes
containing 59 different little bags in order as they go on the PCBs -- one
box of 23 bags for a 12-stage Dome filter, and one box of 36 bags for an
18-stage Dome filter (one of the resistors on the 12-stage filter is
actually 0 ohms, so that's why there are 1 fewer resistors).  My system here
is as follows:
 
1) I take the bag out of the box, tease out one resistor, put it between my
lips, reseal and replace the bag.
2) I grab the resistor body between my left thumb and forefinger and bend
the leads with my right thumb and forefinger.  This gives 0.4" lead spacing.
3) I cut the leads to 1 cm on each side and set down the resistor on my
bench in order.
Steps 1 to 3 are repeated as needed to get all the resistors needed for one
row of the PCB (there are two rows on each PCB -- rows of 12, 11, 18 and 18
resistors).
Then, steps 5 through 8 from above are done once for each PCB.
 
The entire process for those 59 resistors took 34:45.  That's about 35
seconds per resistor.
 
So, obviously, the biggest time-suck of through-hole parts is actually
retrieving the parts from their bags.  I believe that the stuffing,
soldering, snipping and inspecting only took about 13 minutes for both sets
(although I must confess that I didn't time those steps separately).
 
I'd like to conclude this post by saying that I do not enjoy "racing against
the clock" as I did today -- I didn't really work faster than I normally
would, but I was a bit more relentless than usual.  I like to take a more
leisurely time, since this is a relaxing pastime for me.  I should also
mention that I listened to one of my favorite pieces of music while doing
this challenge: Messiaen's organ cycle "Meditations sur le mystere de la
sainte trinite," and that made the time pass very quickly.  Highly
recommended listening -- I prefer the Jennifer Bate set on the Beauvais
Cathedral organ on Unicorn-Kanchana, but the Olivier Latry set on the Notre
Dame organ on Deutsche Grammaphon is also excellent, but perhaps a little
harsher, and maybe a tad too fast in places.
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From rutgervlek at gmail.com  Thu Jun  2 10:12:41 2022
From: rutgervlek at gmail.com (Rutger Vlek)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 10:12:41 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
Message-ID: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list,

I feel incredibly sad to share the news I just read on SynthTopia, and saw
confirmed on the Sequential website: Dave Smith passed away.

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/

Rutger

ps. I hereby propose we thank him by leaving his initials somewhere on the
next PCB we get fabricated...
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From pata at ieee.org  Thu Jun  2 10:50:12 2022
From: pata at ieee.org (pata at ieee.org)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 17:50:12 +0900
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E0163BD4-4424-45AA-AA9E-CA65795920AB@ieee.org>

Thank you

R.I.P. 


> 2022/06/02 17:16?Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>????:
> 
> ?
> Dear list, 
> 
> I feel incredibly sad to share the news I just read on SynthTopia, and saw confirmed on the Sequential website: Dave Smith passed away.
> 
> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/
> 
> Rutger
> 
> ps. I hereby propose we thank him by leaving his initials somewhere on the next PCB we get fabricated...
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From ben at stuyts.nl  Thu Jun  2 12:47:44 2022
From: ben at stuyts.nl (Ben Stuyts)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 12:47:44 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C183DBB6-FAF8-44E9-847A-3EECB629081B@stuyts.nl>

How sad! I read on FB that only recently he was at Superbooth, and I found an interview with him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYGhzRrQHmY

His Prophet 5 and the work he has done on Midi alone makes him a figure of great importance to the synthesizer/keyboard world. The amount of products he put out, and all his collaborations are also staggering. What a great life!

Ben


> On 2 Jun 2022, at 10:12, Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Dear list, 
> 
> I feel incredibly sad to share the news I just read on SynthTopia, and saw confirmed on the Sequential website: Dave Smith passed away.
> 
> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/ <https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/>
> 
> Rutger
> 
> ps. I hereby propose we thank him by leaving his initials somewhere on the next PCB we get fabricated...
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Jun  2 18:02:37 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:02:37 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31903DC9B4884EBF86C30DAB9C93444E@david78c70950b>

Terrible news.  I didn't realize he was so young (only about 14 years older
than me).
 
Whoa, Dave Smith was my younger daughter's age when he started Sequential
Circuits. (!?W?!?!T???!F?!)  When I think about how much time I was wasting
when I was 24, it makes me doubly sad.
 
We're doing it wrong.  We need to be telling our kids that your 20s aren't
just for farting around (not that my kids are farting around -- far from it
-- you know what I mean).  So many 20-somethings I encounter at the
university are just so far away from having any real life goals or real
achievements, it is very maddening (and I was one of them, but at least I
got over it by the time I was 25 and started my PhD, and became a prof at
28, so I guess I shouldn't feel too bad about it -- still, my professional
"accomplishments" are a pale reflection compared to Dave Smith's).
 

  _____  

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Rutger
Vlek via Synth-diy
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2022 1:13 AM
To: SDIY List
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith


[CAUTION: Non-UBC Email]	
Dear list,  

I feel incredibly sad to share the news I just read on SynthTopia, and saw
confirmed on the Sequential website: Dave Smith passed away.

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-m
idi-dave-smith-has-died/

Rutger

ps. I hereby propose we thank him by leaving his initials somewhere on the
next PCB we get fabricated...
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From ben at stuyts.nl  Thu Jun  2 18:08:00 2022
From: ben at stuyts.nl (Ben Stuyts)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 18:08:00 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <C183DBB6-FAF8-44E9-847A-3EECB629081B@stuyts.nl>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C183DBB6-FAF8-44E9-847A-3EECB629081B@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <AFC7CB9F-256D-4323-AED1-910616D988E8@stuyts.nl>

Someone on the AH list posted this YT link, released today by Waveshaper (I dream of wires). An interview from 2014.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ikYq92WW8 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ikYq92WW8>

Ben


> On 2 Jun 2022, at 12:47, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
> 
> How sad! I read on FB that only recently he was at Superbooth, and I found an interview with him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYGhzRrQHmY <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYGhzRrQHmY>
> 
> His Prophet 5 and the work he has done on Midi alone makes him a figure of great importance to the synthesizer/keyboard world. The amount of products he put out, and all his collaborations are also staggering. What a great life!
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
>> On 2 Jun 2022, at 10:12, Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear list, 
>> 
>> I feel incredibly sad to share the news I just read on SynthTopia, and saw confirmed on the Sequential website: Dave Smith passed away.
>> 
>> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/ <https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/>
>> 
>> Rutger
>> 
>> ps. I hereby propose we thank him by leaving his initials somewhere on the next PCB we get fabricated...
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Thu Jun  2 20:45:17 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 19:45:17 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <31903DC9B4884EBF86C30DAB9C93444E@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <31903DC9B4884EBF86C30DAB9C93444E@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <20220602184517.GA13820@gjcp.net>

On Thu, Jun 02, 2022 at 09:02:37AM -0700, David G Dixon via Synth-diy wrote:

> -- you know what I mean).  So many 20-somethings I encounter at the
> university are just so far away from having any real life goals or real
> achievements, it is very maddening (and I was one of them, but at least I

I'm 48 and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up.

I'm kind of over the whole fire engine thing, although looking after the world's biggest fire brigade is kind of fun.

-- 
Gordonjcp



From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Fri Jun  3 03:39:01 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 21:39:01 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <20220602184517.GA13820@gjcp.net>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <31903DC9B4884EBF86C30DAB9C93444E@david78c70950b>
 <20220602184517.GA13820@gjcp.net>
Message-ID: <93E4AFCD-555E-4048-8795-7F90D5593CC6@gmail.com>


> On Jun 2, 2022, at 2:45 PM, Gordonjcp <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:
> 
> I'm 48 and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up.


Same here at 60. Had a heart attack (MI) when I was 45.

I had a chance to play around with Prophet Five in the early '80s. The owner was amazed at the sounds I was getting, having never laid hands on anything except for playing around with an MG-1 at Radio Shack.

I can still hear him shouting "no atonals!!" when I switched to crossmod.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980


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From sdiy-mz01 at blauwurf.info  Fri Jun  3 06:02:45 2022
From: sdiy-mz01 at blauwurf.info (Michael Zacherl)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 06:02:45 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <93E4AFCD-555E-4048-8795-7F90D5593CC6@gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <31903DC9B4884EBF86C30DAB9C93444E@david78c70950b>
 <20220602184517.GA13820@gjcp.net>
 <93E4AFCD-555E-4048-8795-7F90D5593CC6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AB1582C6-2B5F-49BF-A2AB-D94D66AC86CA@blauwurf.info>



> On 03.06.2022, at 03:39, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I can still hear him shouting "no atonals!!" when I switched to crossmod.

oh-oh!  ??????




From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jun  3 09:20:32 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:20:32 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <31903DC9B4884EBF86C30DAB9C93444E@david78c70950b>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <31903DC9B4884EBF86C30DAB9C93444E@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <4d2f35b3-6ad2-a4cf-9d84-ed42012f0e1c@go2.pl>

28 as a prof is not bad at all!
I knew exactly what to do with my life at my 19-ish, done everything 
following that path and then because of 2 stupid decisions made before 
30 I have literally wasted the rest my life.

Dave was very rare example of a good engineer with good business skills 
and good social/private life. How do I know his private life was good 
since we've never met? Well, if that's not working, nothing else works, 
no matter how talented, skilled, equipped or lucky one might be.

Roman

W dniu 2022-06-02 o?18:02, David G Dixon via Synth-diy pisze:
> Terrible news.? I didn't realize he was so young (only about 14 years 
> older than me).
> Whoa, Dave Smith was my younger daughter's age when he started 
> Sequential Circuits. (!?W?!?!T???!F?!)? When I think about how much time 
> I was wasting when I was 24, it makes me doubly sad.
> We're doing it wrong.? We need to be telling our kids that?your 20s 
> aren't just for farting around (not that my kids are farting around -- 
> far from it -- you know what I mean).??So many?20-somethings I?encounter 
> at the university are just so far away from having any real life goals 
> or real achievements, it is very maddening (and I was?one of them, but 
> at least I got over it by the time I was 25 and?started my PhD, 
> and?became a prof at 28, so I guess I shouldn't feel too bad about it -- 
> still, my professional?"accomplishments" are a pale reflection compared 
> to Dave Smith's).
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 02, 2022 1:13 AM
> *To:* SDIY List
> *Subject:* [sdiy] Dave Smith
> 
> [*CAUTION:* Non-UBC Email]
> 
> Dear list,
> 
> I feel incredibly sad to share the news I just read on SynthTopia, and 
> saw confirmed on the Sequential website: Dave Smith passed away.
> 
> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/ 
> <https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/>
> 
> Rutger
> 
> ps. I hereby propose we thank him by leaving his initials somewhere on 
> the next PCB we get fabricated...
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From francesco.mulassano at gmail.com  Fri Jun  3 10:22:14 2022
From: francesco.mulassano at gmail.com (francesco mulassano)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 10:22:14 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Dave Smith
In-Reply-To: <4d2f35b3-6ad2-a4cf-9d84-ed42012f0e1c@go2.pl>
References: <CAJ2Txe126OXEfwJUYQ2RbowYFkVx4C9eL9j0UnRXphTCzGh4VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <31903DC9B4884EBF86C30DAB9C93444E@david78c70950b>
 <4d2f35b3-6ad2-a4cf-9d84-ed42012f0e1c@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <CA+R=RzAT6TMA_GOXi7c=R0d2YoD3M6uUCrnm5rcLd5J_tgrrbA@mail.gmail.com>

I met dave at the SB and exchanged a few words with him about Tom, who
doesn't go to fairs because he is old, and about our mutual friend, Felice,
who passed away a few months ago.

He also made a joke about the Take5.
I told him: nice take5, I tried it and I like it a lot!
And he: Oh yes, a nice synth, those who did it were good!

I leave you a link to the interview we did to him on the occasion of the
Soundmit 2020, where we interviewed him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlZKKwQAmSI

Last SB

[image: image.png]

Il giorno ven 3 giu 2022 alle ore 09:23 Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> ha
scritto:

> 28 as a prof is not bad at all!
> I knew exactly what to do with my life at my 19-ish, done everything
> following that path and then because of 2 stupid decisions made before
> 30 I have literally wasted the rest my life.
>
> Dave was very rare example of a good engineer with good business skills
> and good social/private life. How do I know his private life was good
> since we've never met? Well, if that's not working, nothing else works,
> no matter how talented, skilled, equipped or lucky one might be.
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-06-02 o 18:02, David G Dixon via Synth-diy pisze:
> > Terrible news.  I didn't realize he was so young (only about 14 years
> > older than me).
> > Whoa, Dave Smith was my younger daughter's age when he started
> > Sequential Circuits. (!?W?!?!T???!F?!)  When I think about how much time
> > I was wasting when I was 24, it makes me doubly sad.
> > We're doing it wrong.  We need to be telling our kids that your 20s
> > aren't just for farting around (not that my kids are farting around --
> > far from it -- you know what I mean).  So many 20-somethings I encounter
> > at the university are just so far away from having any real life goals
> > or real achievements, it is very maddening (and I was one of them, but
> > at least I got over it by the time I was 25 and started my PhD,
> > and became a prof at 28, so I guess I shouldn't feel too bad about it --
> > still, my professional "accomplishments" are a pale reflection compared
> > to Dave Smith's).
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf
> Of
> > *Rutger Vlek via Synth-diy
> > *Sent:* Thursday, June 02, 2022 1:13 AM
> > *To:* SDIY List
> > *Subject:* [sdiy] Dave Smith
> >
> > [*CAUTION:* Non-UBC Email]
> >
> > Dear list,
> >
> > I feel incredibly sad to share the news I just read on SynthTopia, and
> > saw confirmed on the Sequential website: Dave Smith passed away.
> >
> >
> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/
> > <
> https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2022/06/01/sequential-founder-father-of-midi-dave-smith-has-died/
> >
> >
> > Rutger
> >
> > ps. I hereby propose we thank him by leaving his initials somewhere on
> > the next PCB we get fabricated...
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 01:34:56 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 19:34:56 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
Message-ID: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>

My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on boxes with a Sharpie.

I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:

https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD


I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.

So what are you guys using?


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980


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From synthdiy at adambaby.com  Wed Jun  8 02:08:43 2022
From: synthdiy at adambaby.com (Adam (synthDIY))
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:08:43 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2C44F4D5-C3C8-4B2F-98A4-5E548567F8C3@adambaby.com>

A sharpie won?t become obsolete and impossible to replace like those cartridges ;-) 

A

> On 8 Jun 2022, at 9:34 am, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on boxes with a Sharpie.
> 
> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F>
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
> 
> 
> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
> 
> So what are you guys using?
> 
> 
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
> 
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
> 
> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From electrocontinuo at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 02:14:31 2022
From: electrocontinuo at gmail.com (Peter Pearson)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 20:14:31 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <2C44F4D5-C3C8-4B2F-98A4-5E548567F8C3@adambaby.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <2C44F4D5-C3C8-4B2F-98A4-5E548567F8C3@adambaby.com>
Message-ID: <CA+qbVc9r1Ct73ZT1-7avd4_pn497ZwFYcq5EgHPVyan=F0cfCg@mail.gmail.com>

You'll need a sharpie, but I swear by these and some painter's (no residue)
tape:

https://www.tadpoletapecutter.com/

On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 8:11 PM Adam (synthDIY) <synthdiy at adambaby.com>
wrote:

> A sharpie won?t become obsolete and impossible to replace like those
> cartridges ;-)
>
> A
>
> On 8 Jun 2022, at 9:34 am, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you
> can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about
> storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on
> boxes with a Sharpie.
>
> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F
>
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>
>
> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape
> cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
>
> So what are you guys using?
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it
> said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl
> Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", *Cosmos*, 1980
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Wed Jun  8 03:23:10 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 01:23:10 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <emfafd6346-5c29-45b1-81b9-4cba9bdfe48e@asus_n76>

  *   Sharpie,
  *   Boxed text laser-printed out on paper, folded and taped to the box,
  *   Label printer that I got for 1/10 this price at Goodwill:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234573157262

GB

------ Original Message ------
From: "Terry Bowman via Synth-diy" <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
To: "SDIY" <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
Sent: 6/7/2022 4:34:56 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff

My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on boxes with a Sharpie.

I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:

https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD


I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.

So what are you guys using?


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980


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From mathewarthurtech at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 03:36:04 2022
From: mathewarthurtech at gmail.com (Matthew Arthur)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 21:36:04 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFO=jmeq10ojVK1ibFKgn-F3gdij2j0oYfsUE+tEcZQx-F_Ctg@mail.gmail.com>

I use a posca paint marker, and the old fashioned dymo labeler, which I can
by off brand label tape for.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2022, 7:40 PM Terry Bowman via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you
> can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about
> storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on
> boxes with a Sharpie.
>
> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F
>
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>
>
> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape
> cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
>
> So what are you guys using?
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it
> said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl
> Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", *Cosmos*, 1980
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From list at mikebeauchamp.com  Wed Jun  8 03:47:45 2022
From: list at mikebeauchamp.com (Mike Beauchamp)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 21:47:45 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5f832ccf-194c-4f22-89dc-d7c43c90519a@mikebeauchamp.com>

On 6/7/22 19:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy wrote:
> 
> So what are you guys using?
>


I recently picked up a second hand Dymo Rhino 4200 label maker and 
purchased a bunch of different size labels. The whole thing wasn't 
cheap, maybe setting me back $150 at the end.

I have a LOT of things labelled in my shop, most were done with a 
sharpie on masking tape and have since completely faded to unreadable 
because of UV light from a nearby window. This includes hundreds of 
small parts drawers, etc.

Even though everything is labelled in my shop, because of my bad 
penmanship it looks like I'm the John Nash character in A Beautiful Mind 
when people visit.

So for me the dymo makes it look like I'm not losing my marbles and 
hoarding random electronics. It also paid for itself when came time to 
organize the spice drawer, saving my marriage.

Note that this Dymo does nothing to check for "authentic" labels, and 
offbrand ones are available on amazon and it also works with the cheaper 
priced non-industrial ones.

Mike







From terje.winther at wintherstormer.no  Wed Jun  8 07:14:19 2022
From: terje.winther at wintherstormer.no (Terje Winther)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 07:14:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E0546BAD-B213-4748-899F-D4ECD5718FD0@wintherstormer.no>

I agree with the rest:
? sharpie
? small Dymo label thing.
Covers 99,8% of your needs (really thick marker is neded for the rest).

I have this small handheld device:
https://www.dymo.com/label-makers-printers/letratag-label-makers/dymo-letratag-100h-plus-handheld-label-maker/SAP_21455.html <https://www.dymo.com/label-makers-printers/letratag-label-makers/dymo-letratag-100h-plus-handheld-label-maker/SAP_21455.html>
Can change labels, letter size and style, so I can make labels that will fit both tiny items as well as larger objects. I even use it to label modifications on my modular (need to cut the upper and lower part of the label to have them fit in very tiny spaces, but it works splendidly).

Terje Winther
WintherStormer

> 8. jun. 2022 kl. 01:34 skrev Terry Bowman via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
> 
> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on boxes with a Sharpie.
> 
> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F>
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
> 
> 
> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
> 
> So what are you guys using?
> 
> 
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
> 
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
> 
> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

Terje Winther
terje.winther at wintherstormer.no
http://wintherstormer.no/

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From benalog1977 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 10:49:59 2022
From: benalog1977 at gmail.com (Ben Riggs)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:49:59 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <E0546BAD-B213-4748-899F-D4ECD5718FD0@wintherstormer.no>
References: <E0546BAD-B213-4748-899F-D4ECD5718FD0@wintherstormer.no>
Message-ID: <C671FEA4-059E-4D5B-A486-9BDD1201CCA1@gmail.com>

I?ve got a ?Brother? branded one, it?s a localised Thai/English one so I?m not going to recommend the specific model though it takes the same cartridges across all models. It?s does flatten the batteries if I don?t take them out if it sits unused for a while. Heat shrink tube cartridges are available for it, I don?t use at home but regularly used at work.

Ben.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 8 Jun 2022, at 7:17 am, Terje Winther <terje.winther at wintherstormer.no> wrote:
> 
> ?I agree with the rest:
> ? sharpie
> ? small Dymo label thing.
> Covers 99,8% of your needs (really thick marker is neded for the rest).
> 
> I have this small handheld device:
> https://www.dymo.com/label-makers-printers/letratag-label-makers/dymo-letratag-100h-plus-handheld-label-maker/SAP_21455.html
> Can change labels, letter size and style, so I can make labels that will fit both tiny items as well as larger objects. I even use it to label modifications on my modular (need to cut the upper and lower part of the label to have them fit in very tiny spaces, but it works splendidly).
> 
> Terje Winther
> WintherStormer
> 
>> 8. jun. 2022 kl. 01:34 skrev Terry Bowman via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:
>> 
>> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on boxes with a Sharpie.
>> 
>> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>> 
>> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F
>> 
>> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>> 
>> 
>> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
>> 
>> So what are you guys using?
>> 
>> 
>> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>> "The Mac Doctor"
>> 
>> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>> 
>> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther at wintherstormer.no
> http://wintherstormer.no/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 12:14:13 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 12:14:13 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--Kwx07wv1G98vLioXx_8BehRvUMeam_H1sEY7t418ZNA@mail.gmail.com>

Whatever you're doing, get an older laptop, and put everything into a
google spreadsheet. Have a unique id for each item. Put that unique id
on the box in big letters.

Other things you could have per-item:
- unique id of the container
- color of the container (color coding helps loads)
- location of the container
- description of the item
- link to photo
- where did you get the item (if relevant)
- how much did it cost
- date of purchase
- time you put the data in there
- next time you have to take the thing out (eg to swap out batteries
so they don't leak)
- weight

Based off this you might also be able to print QR codes that link you
to the spreadsheet and pre-select only the rows that are relevant to
the box that QR code is on.

Now if you're also concerned about people stealing things or not, you
can have RFID tags on your more expensive items and a gate in the
door. That's also useful to know if you removed something.

Why should the laptop be specifically dedicated for that? Because if
it's not *always* there and available, you'll eventually forget to
update your database when you take something out, and eventually
you'll just stop doing this altogether.

The nice thing is that you can hire someone to do this stuff for you.

On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 1:40 AM Terry Bowman via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on boxes with a Sharpie.
>
> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F
>
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>
>
> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
>
> So what are you guys using?
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From modular at go2.pl  Wed Jun  8 12:34:18 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 12:34:18 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>

My way is simple, but I haven't yet reached the point where buying 
portable label printer like that is even considered.

Parts are stored in various boxes in various places in a few rooms. In 
their original bags, and also in small drawers (mostly connectors). I 
never throw out original label from distributor until the last part is 
out. The label also holds hand written notes of various kinds like price 
and date of purchase, sometimes important electrical specs. And most 
importantly it gets registered in my excell sheet with all important 
info and obviously - name of the storage box where it's located.
When some parts are all out, the line is moved to another sheet, listing 
all the parts used so far.

The excell sheet of in-stock items at the moment has 1684 lines.

Roman

W dniu 2022-06-08 o?01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else 
> you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about 
> storage.?One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on 
> boxes with a Sharpie.
> 
> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F 
> <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F>
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
> 
> 
> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape 
> cartridges (? la?printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
> 
> So what are you guys using?
> 
> 
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
> 
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
> 
> ?...the book said something?astonishing, a very big thought.?The stars, 
> it said, were suns but?very far away. The Sun was a star?but close 
> up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/,?1980
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Wed Jun  8 12:41:56 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:41:56 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <aa8b2f547bb942b993ca8ba948653c33@futurehorizons.com>

Boy are you lot well organised.  Apart from a few 15 tray containers from Maplin for resistors (3 trays per decade) and transistors, everything is in jars with a handwritten label on the outside with things like "Analogue ICs", "Convertors", "PCB sockets" and so on, and I just try to remember where things are.  

Usually works :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
Sent: 08 June 2022 11:34
To: Terry Bowman; SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff

My way is simple, but I haven't yet reached the point where buying portable label printer like that is even considered.

Parts are stored in various boxes in various places in a few rooms. In their original bags, and also in small drawers (mostly connectors). I never throw out original label from distributor until the last part is out. The label also holds hand written notes of various kinds like price and date of purchase, sometimes important electrical specs. And most importantly it gets registered in my excell sheet with all important info and obviously - name of the storage box where it's located.
When some parts are all out, the line is moved to another sheet, listing all the parts used so far.

The excell sheet of in-stock items at the moment has 1684 lines.

Roman

W dniu 2022-06-08 o?01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else 
> you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about 
> storage.?One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing 
> on boxes with a Sharpie.
> 
> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B
> 08JQMFZ6F 
> <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/
> B08JQMFZ6F>
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
> 
> 
> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling 
> tape cartridges (? la?printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
> 
> So what are you guys using?
> 
> 
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
> 
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
> 
> ?...the book said something?astonishing, a very big thought.?The 
> stars, it said, were suns but?very far away. The Sun was a star?but 
> close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/,?1980
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From modular at go2.pl  Wed Jun  8 13:19:06 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:19:06 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <aa8b2f547bb942b993ca8ba948653c33@futurehorizons.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <aa8b2f547bb942b993ca8ba948653c33@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <4a9193e0-4e14-a2f3-5816-ddb1fd2f51da@go2.pl>

Random junk jars technique used to work for me too for years.

When you reach the point when you have to buy some parts again, that you 
know damn well you already have, but can't remember where they are, then 
this sort of detailed storage record comes naturally.

Roman


W dniu 2022-06-08 o?12:41, Mike Bryant pisze:
> Boy are you lot well organised.  Apart from a few 15 tray containers from Maplin for resistors (3 trays per decade) and transistors, everything is in jars with a handwritten label on the outside with things like "Analogue ICs", "Convertors", "PCB sockets" and so on, and I just try to remember where things are.
> 
> Usually works :-)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
> Sent: 08 June 2022 11:34
> To: Terry Bowman; SDIY
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
> 
> My way is simple, but I haven't yet reached the point where buying portable label printer like that is even considered.
> 
> Parts are stored in various boxes in various places in a few rooms. In their original bags, and also in small drawers (mostly connectors). I never throw out original label from distributor until the last part is out. The label also holds hand written notes of various kinds like price and date of purchase, sometimes important electrical specs. And most importantly it gets registered in my excell sheet with all important info and obviously - name of the storage box where it's located.
> When some parts are all out, the line is moved to another sheet, listing all the parts used so far.
> 
> The excell sheet of in-stock items at the moment has 1684 lines.
> 
> Roman
> 
> W dniu 2022-06-08 o?01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
>> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else
>> you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about
>> storage.?One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing
>> on boxes with a Sharpie.
>>
>> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B
>> 08JQMFZ6F
>> <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/
>> B08JQMFZ6F>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>>
>>
>> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling
>> tape cartridges (? la?printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
>>
>> So what are you guys using?
>>
>>
>> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>> "The Mac Doctor"
>>
>> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>>
>> ?...the book said something?astonishing, a very big thought.?The
>> stars, it said, were suns but?very far away. The Sun was a star?but
>> close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/,?1980
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From quincas at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 23:46:36 2022
From: quincas at gmail.com (Quincas Moreira)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 16:46:36 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <4a9193e0-4e14-a2f3-5816-ddb1fd2f51da@go2.pl>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <aa8b2f547bb942b993ca8ba948653c33@futurehorizons.com>
 <4a9193e0-4e14-a2f3-5816-ddb1fd2f51da@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <CA+u0JtkGDYFJOSNE7YomEKmsebGUQXYCE=Z1gdmQL5soc41Mxg@mail.gmail.com>

I think you mean Hoard, not horde....

I personally label what needs to be labelled with a silver sharpie!
Cheers


On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 6:22 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:

> Random junk jars technique used to work for me too for years.
>
> When you reach the point when you have to buy some parts again, that you
> know damn well you already have, but can't remember where they are, then
> this sort of detailed storage record comes naturally.
>
> Roman
>
>
> W dniu 2022-06-08 o 12:41, Mike Bryant pisze:
> > Boy are you lot well organised.  Apart from a few 15 tray containers
> from Maplin for resistors (3 trays per decade) and transistors, everything
> is in jars with a handwritten label on the outside with things like
> "Analogue ICs", "Convertors", "PCB sockets" and so on, and I just try to
> remember where things are.
> >
> > Usually works :-)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> Roman Sowa
> > Sent: 08 June 2022 11:34
> > To: Terry Bowman; SDIY
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
> >
> > My way is simple, but I haven't yet reached the point where buying
> portable label printer like that is even considered.
> >
> > Parts are stored in various boxes in various places in a few rooms. In
> their original bags, and also in small drawers (mostly connectors). I never
> throw out original label from distributor until the last part is out. The
> label also holds hand written notes of various kinds like price and date of
> purchase, sometimes important electrical specs. And most importantly it
> gets registered in my excell sheet with all important info and obviously -
> name of the storage box where it's located.
> > When some parts are all out, the line is moved to another sheet, listing
> all the parts used so far.
> >
> > The excell sheet of in-stock items at the moment has 1684 lines.
> >
> > Roman
> >
> > W dniu 2022-06-08 o 01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
> >> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else
> >> you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about
> >> storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing
> >> on boxes with a Sharpie.
> >>
> >> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
> >>
> >> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B
> >> 08JQMFZ6F
> >> <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/
> >> B08JQMFZ6F>
> >>
> >> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
> >>
> >>
> >> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling
> >> tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink
> tubing. Joy.
> >>
> >> So what are you guys using?
> >>
> >>
> >> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> >> "The Mac Doctor"
> >>
> >> https://www.astarcloseup.com
> >>
> >> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The
> >> stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but
> >> close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/, 1980
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


-- 
[image: QMA]

Quincas Moreira
Director | QMA
mobile:  5534988825
site:  quincasmoreira.com
email:  quincas at gmail.com
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From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Wed Jun  8 23:46:46 2022
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 23:46:46 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f867e96c-72c7-ef43-8ce4-a45f3880825f@mnet-online.de>

(I sent this before to Terry, resending it to the group...)


I have two methods:

for the usual marmalade jar based storage I use a brother writer like 
Ben Riggs mentioned. I never used it to print directly on shrink tube, 
but I use it on cables with a clear shrink tube over the label


for sorting systems with a label holder I simply print labels on paper 
using an Excel/Libreoffice-File:



On 08.06.22 01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy wrote:
> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else 
> you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about 
> storage.?One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing 
> on boxes with a Sharpie.
>
> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F
>
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>
>
> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling 
> tape cartridges (? la?printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink 
> tubing. Joy.
>
> So what are you guys using?
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> ?...the book said something?astonishing, a very big thought.?The 
> stars, it said, were suns but?very far away. The Sun was a star?but 
> close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/,?1980
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Usemarketplace at synth-diy.org
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Thu Jun  9 00:32:06 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 18:32:06 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>

I buy nearly everything through Mouser, so I keep parts in their labeled bags. Each project is saved in its own box, and the assembly shop usually labels that box with the project name, so I just keep using the same box. Re-orders of the same project start by rummaging through the box to see how many parts are left. Using Mouser means that new projects can easily borrow from old projects, since I have every project saved on Mouser.

For a while, I kept a text file on my computer where each line is the remaining parts from a particular project build. This is the most time-consuming step, but searching the text file is easy (so long as I use consistent designations. You might be surprised how many distributers aren't exactly consistent in parts' designations. The text file is somewhat organized by project, but mostly by part type, in increasing values so I can find what I have that is *close* to a desired value when there isn't an exact match.

I have considered consolidating the parts into fewer boxes - especially when the box for the PCB stack is much bigger than the space required for the leftover parts. That consolidation has yet to happen, although I do have stackable drawers from The Container Store where a lot of unboxed spare parts have ended up.

The few items that I buy somewhere other than Mouser are usually bulk orders that take up enough space that it's obvious where they ended up in the lab.

Brian


On Jun 8, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
> My way is simple, but I haven't yet reached the point where buying portable label printer like that is even considered.
> 
> Parts are stored in various boxes in various places in a few rooms. In their original bags, and also in small drawers (mostly connectors). I never throw out original label from distributor until the last part is out. The label also holds hand written notes of various kinds like price and date of purchase, sometimes important electrical specs. And most importantly it gets registered in my excell sheet with all important info and obviously - name of the storage box where it's located.
> When some parts are all out, the line is moved to another sheet, listing all the parts used so far.
> 
> The excell sheet of in-stock items at the moment has 1684 lines.
> 
> Roman
> 
> W dniu 2022-06-08 o 01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
>> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing on boxes with a Sharpie.
>> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B08JQMFZ6F>
>> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
>> So what are you guys using?
>> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH




From ijfritz at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 00:55:31 2022
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 16:55:31 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <CA+u0JtkGDYFJOSNE7YomEKmsebGUQXYCE=Z1gdmQL5soc41Mxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+u0JtkGDYFJOSNE7YomEKmsebGUQXYCE=Z1gdmQL5soc41Mxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D426C7B4-398F-4FE4-B1F1-A71334E769F3@comcast.net>

I don?t know; they do seem to invade and take over all your territory.

Ian

> On Jun 8, 2022, at 3:49 PM, Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> I think you mean Hoard, not horde....
> 
> I personally label what needs to be labelled with a silver sharpie!
> Cheers
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 6:22 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>> Random junk jars technique used to work for me too for years.
>> 
>> When you reach the point when you have to buy some parts again, that you 
>> know damn well you already have, but can't remember where they are, then 
>> this sort of detailed storage record comes naturally.
>> 
>> Roman
>> 
>> 
>> W dniu 2022-06-08 o 12:41, Mike Bryant pisze:
>> > Boy are you lot well organised.  Apart from a few 15 tray containers from Maplin for resistors (3 trays per decade) and transistors, everything is in jars with a handwritten label on the outside with things like "Analogue ICs", "Convertors", "PCB sockets" and so on, and I just try to remember where things are.
>> > 
>> > Usually works :-)
>> > 
>> > 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
>> > Sent: 08 June 2022 11:34
>> > To: Terry Bowman; SDIY
>> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
>> > 
>> > My way is simple, but I haven't yet reached the point where buying portable label printer like that is even considered.
>> > 
>> > Parts are stored in various boxes in various places in a few rooms. In their original bags, and also in small drawers (mostly connectors). I never throw out original label from distributor until the last part is out. The label also holds hand written notes of various kinds like price and date of purchase, sometimes important electrical specs. And most importantly it gets registered in my excell sheet with all important info and obviously - name of the storage box where it's located.
>> > When some parts are all out, the line is moved to another sheet, listing all the parts used so far.
>> > 
>> > The excell sheet of in-stock items at the moment has 1684 lines.
>> > 
>> > Roman
>> > 
>> > W dniu 2022-06-08 o 01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
>> >> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else
>> >> you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about
>> >> storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing
>> >> on boxes with a Sharpie.
>> >>
>> >> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B
>> >> 08JQMFZ6F
>> >> <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/
>> >> B08JQMFZ6F>
>> >>
>> >> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling
>> >> tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
>> >>
>> >> So what are you guys using?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>> >> "The Mac Doctor"
>> >>
>> >> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>> >>
>> >> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The
>> >> stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but
>> >> close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/, 1980
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> > 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> Quincas Moreira
> Director | QMA
> mobile:  5534988825
> site:  quincasmoreira.com
> email:  quincas at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From quincas at gmail.com  Thu Jun  9 01:23:54 2022
From: quincas at gmail.com (Quincas Moreira)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 18:23:54 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <D426C7B4-398F-4FE4-B1F1-A71334E769F3@comcast.net>
References: <CA+u0JtkGDYFJOSNE7YomEKmsebGUQXYCE=Z1gdmQL5soc41Mxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D426C7B4-398F-4FE4-B1F1-A71334E769F3@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CA+u0JtkhK+MfhDH3FWuT1LhWKaHMTS6XLj8v84DuKtzgaSwLiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Indeed!

On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 5:55 PM Ian Fritz <ijfritz at comcast.net> wrote:

> I don?t know; they do seem to invade and take over all your territory.
>
> Ian
>
> On Jun 8, 2022, at 3:49 PM, Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> I think you mean Hoard, not horde....
>
> I personally label what needs to be labelled with a silver sharpie!
> Cheers
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 6:22 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>
>> Random junk jars technique used to work for me too for years.
>>
>> When you reach the point when you have to buy some parts again, that you
>> know damn well you already have, but can't remember where they are, then
>> this sort of detailed storage record comes naturally.
>>
>> Roman
>>
>>
>> W dniu 2022-06-08 o 12:41, Mike Bryant pisze:
>> > Boy are you lot well organised.  Apart from a few 15 tray containers
>> from Maplin for resistors (3 trays per decade) and transistors, everything
>> is in jars with a handwritten label on the outside with things like
>> "Analogue ICs", "Convertors", "PCB sockets" and so on, and I just try to
>> remember where things are.
>> >
>> > Usually works :-)
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
>> Roman Sowa
>> > Sent: 08 June 2022 11:34
>> > To: Terry Bowman; SDIY
>> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
>> >
>> > My way is simple, but I haven't yet reached the point where buying
>> portable label printer like that is even considered.
>> >
>> > Parts are stored in various boxes in various places in a few rooms. In
>> their original bags, and also in small drawers (mostly connectors). I never
>> throw out original label from distributor until the last part is out. The
>> label also holds hand written notes of various kinds like price and date of
>> purchase, sometimes important electrical specs. And most importantly it
>> gets registered in my excell sheet with all important info and obviously -
>> name of the storage box where it's located.
>> > When some parts are all out, the line is moved to another sheet,
>> listing all the parts used so far.
>> >
>> > The excell sheet of in-stock items at the moment has 1684 lines.
>> >
>> > Roman
>> >
>> > W dniu 2022-06-08 o 01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
>> >> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and everything else
>> >> you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious about
>> >> storage. One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of writing
>> >> on boxes with a Sharpie.
>> >>
>> >> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B
>> >> 08JQMFZ6F
>> >> <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/
>> >> B08JQMFZ6F>
>> >>
>> >> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling
>> >> tape cartridges (? la printer ink) but this thing does heat-shrink
>> tubing. Joy.
>> >>
>> >> So what are you guys using?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>> >> "The Mac Doctor"
>> >>
>> >> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>> >>
>> >> ?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The
>> >> stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but
>> >> close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/, 1980
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>
>
> --
> [image: QMA]
>
> Quincas Moreira
> Director | QMA
> mobile:  5534988825
> site:  quincasmoreira.com
> email:  quincas at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>

-- 
[image: QMA]

Quincas Moreira
Director | QMA
mobile:  5534988825
site:  quincasmoreira.com
email:  quincas at gmail.com
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From okvern at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jun  9 01:30:46 2022
From: okvern at ix.netcom.com (Olav Martin Kvern)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 16:30:46 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <D426C7B4-398F-4FE4-B1F1-A71334E769F3@comcast.net>
References: <CA+u0JtkGDYFJOSNE7YomEKmsebGUQXYCE=Z1gdmQL5soc41Mxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D426C7B4-398F-4FE4-B1F1-A71334E769F3@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <671b209e-73af-1139-5a66-4f5391dd6d71@ix.netcom.com>

I think this is one of the very rare cases in which "horde" and "hoard" 
are interchangeable.


On 6/8/2022 3:55 PM, Ian Fritz via Synth-diy wrote:
> I don?t know; they do seem to invade and take over all your territory.
> 
> Ian
> 
>> On Jun 8, 2022, at 3:49 PM, Quincas Moreira via Synth-diy 
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> I think you mean Hoard, not horde....
>>
>> I personally label what needs to be labelled with a silver sharpie!
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 6:22 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl 
>> <mailto:modular at go2.pl>> wrote:
>>
>>     Random junk jars technique used to work for me too for years.
>>
>>     When you reach the point when you have to buy some parts again,
>>     that you
>>     know damn well you already have, but can't remember where they
>>     are, then
>>     this sort of detailed storage record comes naturally.
>>
>>     Roman
>>
>>
>>     W dniu 2022-06-08 o?12:41, Mike Bryant pisze:
>>     > Boy are you lot well organised.? Apart from a few 15 tray
>>     containers from Maplin for resistors (3 trays per decade) and
>>     transistors, everything is in jars with a handwritten label on the
>>     outside with things like "Analogue ICs", "Convertors", "PCB
>>     sockets" and so on, and I just try to remember where things are.
>>     >
>>     > Usually works :-)
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > -----Original Message-----
>>     > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org
>>     <mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Roman Sowa
>>     > Sent: 08 June 2022 11:34
>>     > To: Terry Bowman; SDIY
>>     > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
>>     >
>>     > My way is simple, but I haven't yet reached the point where
>>     buying portable label printer like that is even considered.
>>     >
>>     > Parts are stored in various boxes in various places in a few
>>     rooms. In their original bags, and also in small drawers (mostly
>>     connectors). I never throw out original label from distributor
>>     until the last part is out. The label also holds hand written
>>     notes of various kinds like price and date of purchase, sometimes
>>     important electrical specs. And most importantly it gets
>>     registered in my excell sheet with all important info and
>>     obviously - name of the storage box where it's located.
>>     > When some parts are all out, the line is moved to another sheet,
>>     listing all the parts used so far.
>>     >
>>     > The excell sheet of in-stock items at the moment has 1684 lines.
>>     >
>>     > Roman
>>     >
>>     > W dniu 2022-06-08 o?01:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
>>     >> My collection of parts, Nixie and magic eye tubes, and
>>     everything else
>>     >> you can name has grown to the point where I need to get serious
>>     about
>>     >> storage.?One aspect of this is labelling things. I'm tired of
>>     writing
>>     >> on boxes with a Sharpie.
>>     >>
>>     >> I really like the capabilities of this Epson series:
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B
>>     <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/B>
>>     >> 08JQMFZ6F
>>     >>
>>     <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/
>>     <https://www.amazon.com/LABELWORKS-LW-PX300-Industrial-Label-Maker/dp/>
>>     >> B08JQMFZ6F>
>>     >>
>>     >> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD
>>     <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JQMJ7RD>
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >> I know there's cheaper stuff out there and the profit is in selling
>>     >> tape cartridges (? la?printer ink) but this thing does
>>     heat-shrink tubing. Joy.
>>     >>
>>     >> So what are you guys using?
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>>     >> "The Mac Doctor"
>>     >>
>>     >> https://www.astarcloseup.com <https://www.astarcloseup.com>
>>     >>
>>     >> ?...the book said something?astonishing, a very big thought.?The
>>     >> stars, it said, were suns but?very far away. The Sun was a star?but
>>     >> close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/,?1980
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >> _______________________________________________
>>     >> Synth-diy mailing list
>>     >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>     >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>     >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>     >>
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > Synth-diy mailing list
>>     > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>     > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>     > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>     >
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Synth-diy mailing list
>>     Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>>     http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>     <http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy>
>>     Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>     <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> QMA	
>> Quincas Moreira
>> Director | QMA
>> mobile: 5534988825 <tel:5534988825>
>> site: quincasmoreira.com <http://quincasmoreira.com/>
>> email: quincas at gmail.com <mailto:quincas at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Thu Jun  9 02:13:11 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 20:13:11 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <671b209e-73af-1139-5a66-4f5391dd6d71@ix.netcom.com>
References: <CA+u0JtkGDYFJOSNE7YomEKmsebGUQXYCE=Z1gdmQL5soc41Mxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D426C7B4-398F-4FE4-B1F1-A71334E769F3@comcast.net>
 <671b209e-73af-1139-5a66-4f5391dd6d71@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <74E79F52-0858-47BD-A5BF-002A57876380@gmail.com>


> On Jun 8, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Olav Martin Kvern via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I think this is one of the very rare cases in which "horde" and "hoard" are interchangeable.

OK guys, you got me. In my own defense I have to say that I'm ADHD touch typist and I often make mistakes like this. The most common is transposing "ed" and "ing". I almost failed typing class in High School while getting straight As in Physics. After the letter "e" the most commonly used key on my keyboard is Delete.

Keep the good suggestions coming. I'm thinking about things that I hadn't considered before.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact."?Carl Sagan, Psychology Today, 1996

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From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Thu Jun  9 02:27:21 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:27:21 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <emc7f11bc7-65b0-448a-b47b-6d4d6cafbdc5@asus_n76>


Yeah you can see the attractiveness in using a rolling cart-of-boxes 
like this (but not for $400!).

https://www.worthingtondirect.com/media/catalog/product/m/b/mbs-dr-16s-mobile-bin-storage-cart-luxor.jpg

GB

------ Original Message ------
From: "brianw" <brianw at audiobanshee.com>
To: "SDIY" <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Sent: 6/8/2022 3:32:06 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff

>
>I have considered consolidating the parts into fewer boxes - especially when the box for the PCB stack is much bigger than the space required for the leftover parts. That consolidation has yet to happen, although I do have stackable drawers from The Container Store where a lot of unboxed spare parts have ended up.
>
>Brian
>
>
>



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Thu Jun  9 03:00:11 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 03:00:11 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Soldering races (was something else)
In-Reply-To: <09709496324040B7B9BC3EA4542C947C@david78c70950b>
References: <09709496324040B7B9BC3EA4542C947C@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--1kKcijm4K3u=EjtAQ-8+4atzM+HkB6=WdWxHiNLXQTw@mail.gmail.com>

Retrieving an SMD part from a box takes maybe 2 seconds - so you could
save ages there.

With hot air, the solder is flowing at all times, so you just need to
put the thing down and you're done.

Of course, that's all theory, and in practice, it's not.

On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 5:10 AM David G Dixon via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Hey Team,
>
> You may remember that I started a subthread about soldering through-hole vs SMD.  Well, today I decided to actually time myself with a stopwatch.
>
> I timed two different sets of through-hole resistors.
>
> The first set was 60 of all one value (10k) that I buy in boxes of 5000 on tape, so I can bend and cut them very quickly.  My system is as follows:
>
> 1) I cut 5 strips of 12 resistors each from the box.
> 2) I bend the strips in half so that the resistors are close packed (they come spaced out).
> 3) I use long straight needle-nose pliers to bend all 12 resistors at once, about 2 mm from the resistor body on both sides.  This gives 0.4" lead spacing.
> 4) I cut all of the leads (in groups of 4) so that about 1 cm remains on each side.
> 5) I stuff all of the resistors, being careful to orient them all in the same direction.
> 6) I solder them all.
> 7) I snip them all.
> 8) I inspect against a strong light.
>
> The entire process for those 60 resistors (on two different PCBs) took 17:40.  That's about 18 seconds per resistor.  This is a little longer than I was expecting, but I am soldering a little slower these days.  It seems that I'm having a little bit of a problem getting the solder to flow, so each joint takes maybe one second longer than it should.  I think my (Chinese) solder skimped a little on the flux.
>
> The second set was 59 of all different values, from two different boxes containing 59 different little bags in order as they go on the PCBs -- one box of 23 bags for a 12-stage Dome filter, and one box of 36 bags for an 18-stage Dome filter (one of the resistors on the 12-stage filter is actually 0 ohms, so that's why there are 1 fewer resistors).  My system here is as follows:
>
> 1) I take the bag out of the box, tease out one resistor, put it between my lips, reseal and replace the bag.
> 2) I grab the resistor body between my left thumb and forefinger and bend the leads with my right thumb and forefinger.  This gives 0.4" lead spacing.
> 3) I cut the leads to 1 cm on each side and set down the resistor on my bench in order.
> Steps 1 to 3 are repeated as needed to get all the resistors needed for one row of the PCB (there are two rows on each PCB -- rows of 12, 11, 18 and 18 resistors).
> Then, steps 5 through 8 from above are done once for each PCB.
>
> The entire process for those 59 resistors took 34:45.  That's about 35 seconds per resistor.
>
> So, obviously, the biggest time-suck of through-hole parts is actually retrieving the parts from their bags.  I believe that the stuffing, soldering, snipping and inspecting only took about 13 minutes for both sets (although I must confess that I didn't time those steps separately).
>
> I'd like to conclude this post by saying that I do not enjoy "racing against the clock" as I did today -- I didn't really work faster than I normally would, but I was a bit more relentless than usual.  I like to take a more leisurely time, since this is a relaxing pastime for me.  I should also mention that I listened to one of my favorite pieces of music while doing this challenge: Messiaen's organ cycle "Meditations sur le mystere de la sainte trinite," and that made the time pass very quickly.  Highly recommended listening -- I prefer the Jennifer Bate set on the Beauvais Cathedral organ on Unicorn-Kanchana, but the Olivier Latry set on the Notre Dame organ on Deutsche Grammaphon is also excellent, but perhaps a little harsher, and maybe a tad too fast in places.
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Thu Jun  9 03:02:11 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:02:11 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <emc7f11bc7-65b0-448a-b47b-6d4d6cafbdc5@asus_n76>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
 <emc7f11bc7-65b0-448a-b47b-6d4d6cafbdc5@asus_n76>
Message-ID: <426EF2A7-7094-46C1-8E2C-17D6847A9AB3@gmail.com>


> On Jun 8, 2022, at 8:27 PM, grant musictechnologiesgroup.com <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah you can see the attractiveness in using a rolling cart-of-boxes 
> like this (but not for $400!).
> 
> https://www.worthingtondirect.com/media/catalog/product/m/b/mbs-dr-16s-mobile-bin-storage-cart-luxor.jpg <https://www.worthingtondirect.com/media/catalog/product/m/b/mbs-dr-16s-mobile-bin-storage-cart-luxor.jpg>


I bought five of these when the price was under $45:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08W26CNWY <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08W26CNWY>


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

"If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes."?Roy Batty, Blade Runner

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From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun  9 03:07:11 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:07:11 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <CAA79VLoP9a+65Me8_35M2Lbos5m=Xt87NQAFG-HS6tGoGw230w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <CAA79VLoP9a+65Me8_35M2Lbos5m=Xt87NQAFG-HS6tGoGw230w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ac5d8ee-4ff3-2c25-1ea6-890a3430118f@gmx.com>



On 5/10/22 01:53, Paul Perry wrote:
> Possibly a capacitor (being smt) is made of material that?is behaving in
> a non-linear way?


i tried swapping the integrator capacitor with the npo/c0g TH version I
was using in the Thru-Hole version and there was no change in the
problem unfortunately


--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun  9 03:08:40 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:08:40 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <7e09e535-c2a2-53b7-9c9a-a773a6a390c7@go2.pl>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <7e09e535-c2a2-53b7-9c9a-a773a6a390c7@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <bd67294e-65d2-de7b-eb8a-dded9f59d362@gmx.com>



On 5/10/22 05:07, Roman Sowa wrote:
> Are you sure C3 is Class I dielectric (that's C0G for example)?
> All Class II caps (like X7R) show slight dependency of capacitance vs
> frequency. It's not that aparent in audio range, but you say a dozen of
> cents, so it's more or less what could be expected.
>
> Put proper C0G cap and see
>
> Roman
thanks Roman,
I swapped C3 with the npo/c0g thru-hole cap that was working as-expected
in the thru-hole version and the problem stayed the same

--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun  9 03:11:39 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:11:39 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <61CE44B0-B978-4BA4-A555-1D67C3EC5499@comcast.net>
References: <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <61CE44B0-B978-4BA4-A555-1D67C3EC5499@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <f856adf1-97fb-36ed-07df-94c2db008606@gmx.com>



On 5/10/22 18:34, Ian Fritz wrote:
> A good place to look is at the output of the standing-current servo amp.  I see now that Thomas already has pretty big cap there, but it?s worth looking at anyway. I don?t remember seeing the hf oscillations at the output itself.
>
> Ian

thanks Ian,

I scoped the output of the servo amp as you suggested and saw no AC
oscillation - and less than 1mV of noise.

i tried a few different values for the capacitor. the extremes were
beefing it up to 10,000pF made no change in the problem, and removing it
completely made the oscillator unable to scale properly.



--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun  9 03:13:38 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:13:38 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>



On 5/19/22 15:57, Sarah Thompson via Synth-diy wrote:
> Chip ceramic capacitors can show?changes in capacitance with bias
> voltage. If stable capacitance is necessary, then specifying something
> fundamentally more stable like a polyester might be sensible, albeit at
> the cost of board area.

thank you sarah,
this is good to know, so I did try swapping the smt cap out with the
npo/c0g thru-hole cap that worked as expected and the problem did not
change.


--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From dixon at mail.ubc.ca  Thu Jun  9 03:39:21 2022
From: dixon at mail.ubc.ca (David G Dixon)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 18:39:21 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <426EF2A7-7094-46C1-8E2C-17D6847A9AB3@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
 <emc7f11bc7-65b0-448a-b47b-6d4d6cafbdc5@asus_n76>
 <426EF2A7-7094-46C1-8E2C-17D6847A9AB3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3FF6058798E64697AF70FAB5F76FBBA1@david78c70950b>

I bought a very cheap rolling chest of 10 plastic drawers in a fairly flimsy
metal frame with casters.  This thing has been a god-send!  I put many of
the parts I needed for my Freak Shift builds into it -- electrolytic and
ceramic caps in one drawer, panel components in another, spacers in another,
sockets in another, ICs in another, etc, etc.  Some of the drawers have
dividers, and some just have different baggies.  Nothing is labelled, but I
know exactly where everything is.  I can roll it right next to my chair when
I'm soldering.  The only things I didn't put into it are resistors and film
caps, which I keep in separate boxes in a cabinet near my bench.  I've never
been this organized, and it has saved tons of time.
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From okvern at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jun  9 04:33:35 2022
From: okvern at ix.netcom.com (Olav Martin Kvern)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 19:33:35 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <3FF6058798E64697AF70FAB5F76FBBA1@david78c70950b>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
 <emc7f11bc7-65b0-448a-b47b-6d4d6cafbdc5@asus_n76>
 <426EF2A7-7094-46C1-8E2C-17D6847A9AB3@gmail.com>
 <3FF6058798E64697AF70FAB5F76FBBA1@david78c70950b>
Message-ID: <be0ca88d-e984-8b3b-2ac6-3956b8a46109@ix.netcom.com>

Colleagues,

I found a bunch of Akro-Mils plastic cabinets (perfect for small 
components) and a rolling cart thing on the street. Like this:

https://akro-mils.com/Products/Types/Portable-Small-Parts-Storage/Plastic-Cabinets/10164

Once I washed the blood off--and I'm not kidding about that--they've 
been great. No idea what had happened to them, and they don't answer 
questions when I ask. Probably an Elmore Leonard story in there, somewhere.

Thanks,

Ole

On 6/8/2022 6:39 PM, David G Dixon via Synth-diy wrote:
> I bought a very cheap rolling chest of 10 plastic drawers?in a fairly 
> flimsy metal frame with casters.? This thing has been a god-send!? I 
> put?many of the parts I needed for my Freak Shift builds into it -- 
> electrolytic and ceramic caps in one drawer, panel components in 
> another, spacers in another, sockets in another, ICs in another, etc, 
> etc.? Some of the drawers have dividers, and some just have different 
> baggies.? Nothing is labelled, but I know exactly where everything is.  
> I can roll it right next to my chair when I'm soldering.? The only 
> things I didn't put into it are resistors and film caps, which I keep in 
> separate boxes in a cabinet near my bench.? I've never been this 
> organized, and it has saved tons of time.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From ben.pi.bradley at gmail.com  Thu Jun  9 05:40:35 2022
From: ben.pi.bradley at gmail.com (Ben Bradley)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 23:40:35 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>

Rereading the original, it seems reasonable to assume at least one
component is different in SMT from thru hole. I'd start replacing SMT
parts with thru hole and see what happens. I can't quite say why, but
I'd start with Q5 and Q6, and if no change then Q1-Q2. From there I'd
do the other active parts. After what you've already tried, this does
not have an easily identifiable solution.

On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 at 21:15, Neil Harper via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 5/19/22 15:57, Sarah Thompson via Synth-diy wrote:
> > Chip ceramic capacitors can show changes in capacitance with bias
> > voltage. If stable capacitance is necessary, then specifying something
> > fundamentally more stable like a polyester might be sensible, albeit at
> > the cost of board area.
>
> thank you sarah,
> this is good to know, so I did try swapping the smt cap out with the
> npo/c0g thru-hole cap that worked as expected and the problem did not
> change.
>
>
> --
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun  9 05:57:28 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 23:57:28 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5d334ca4-ec84-9e85-fb0c-23888d29e5a3@gmx.com>

On 6/8/22 23:40, Ben Bradley via Synth-diy wrote:
> Rereading the original, it seems reasonable to assume at least one
> component is different in SMT from thru hole. I'd start replacing SMT
> parts with thru hole and see what happens. I can't quite say why, but
> I'd start with Q5 and Q6, and if no change then Q1-Q2. From there I'd
> do the other active parts. After what you've already tried, this does
> not have an easily identifiable solution.

thanks ben, yeah I'm at a loss with this one and I agree that those are
the next things to look at.

Q1/Q2 (schmitt trigger) were 2N3904 in TH and MMBT3904 in SMT
https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/mmbt3904lt1-d.pdf

Q5/Q6 (expo) were 2N2906 (handmatched) in TH and DMMT3906W (matched
pair) in SMT.
https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ds30312.pdf


I'll start with Q5/Q6 as you said. I have used DMMT3906W as an expo pair
in another oscillator type and didn't experience the high-freq-boost
that I'm seeing in this one.

--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Thu Jun  9 05:59:31 2022
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 22:59:31 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACodTR_MtnkpaU+B31Xv5O9n7KoNDcNBZCZzdJHacYUvvC7Mqw@mail.gmail.com>

Now that you mention transistors, Ben...

Neil:  I'm sure you do probably already know this, but most SMD transistors
have a different pinout than their through hole counterparts.  This has
bitten me a couple of times.

If you haven't ruled this out, perhaps that's related?

Pete




On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 10:44 PM Ben Bradley via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Rereading the original, it seems reasonable to assume at least one
> component is different in SMT from thru hole. I'd start replacing SMT
> parts with thru hole and see what happens. I can't quite say why, but
> I'd start with Q5 and Q6, and if no change then Q1-Q2. From there I'd
> do the other active parts. After what you've already tried, this does
> not have an easily identifiable solution.
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 at 21:15, Neil Harper via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/19/22 15:57, Sarah Thompson via Synth-diy wrote:
> > > Chip ceramic capacitors can show changes in capacitance with bias
> > > voltage. If stable capacitance is necessary, then specifying something
> > > fundamentally more stable like a polyester might be sensible, albeit at
> > > the cost of board area.
> >
> > thank you sarah,
> > this is good to know, so I did try swapping the smt cap out with the
> > npo/c0g thru-hole cap that worked as expected and the problem did not
> > change.
> >
> >
> > --
> > /// Neil Harper
> > /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun  9 06:19:38 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:19:38 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <CACodTR_MtnkpaU+B31Xv5O9n7KoNDcNBZCZzdJHacYUvvC7Mqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACodTR_MtnkpaU+B31Xv5O9n7KoNDcNBZCZzdJHacYUvvC7Mqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <819b100d-c1f7-9232-7762-3890b6367c69@gmx.com>



On 6/8/22 23:59, Pete Hartman via Synth-diy wrote:
> Now that you mention transistors, Ben...
>
> Neil:? I'm sure you do probably already know this, but most SMD
> transistors have a different pinout than their through hole
> counterparts.? This has bitten me a couple of times.
>
> If you haven't ruled this out, perhaps that's related?
>
> Pete


i'm not sure the oscillator would work perfectly up until C7 though if
some of the transistors were wrong?

--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From ijfritz at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 08:52:58 2022
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:52:58 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <5d334ca4-ec84-9e85-fb0c-23888d29e5a3@gmx.com>
References: <5d334ca4-ec84-9e85-fb0c-23888d29e5a3@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <DAD83C05-7CC7-4C1E-91DE-7186B29A378C@comcast.net>

What do you have in there for a tempco resistor?

Ian

> On Jun 8, 2022, at 9:59 PM, Neil Harper via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?On 6/8/22 23:40, Ben Bradley via Synth-diy wrote:
>> Rereading the original, it seems reasonable to assume at least one
>> component is different in SMT from thru hole. I'd start replacing SMT
>> parts with thru hole and see what happens. I can't quite say why, but
>> I'd start with Q5 and Q6, and if no change then Q1-Q2. From there I'd
>> do the other active parts. After what you've already tried, this does
>> not have an easily identifiable solution.
> 
> thanks ben, yeah I'm at a loss with this one and I agree that those are
> the next things to look at.
> 
> Q1/Q2 (schmitt trigger) were 2N3904 in TH and MMBT3904 in SMT
> https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/mmbt3904lt1-d.pdf
> 
> Q5/Q6 (expo) were 2N2906 (handmatched) in TH and DMMT3906W (matched
> pair) in SMT.
> https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ds30312.pdf
> 
> 
> I'll start with Q5/Q6 as you said. I have used DMMT3906W as an expo pair
> in another oscillator type and didn't experience the high-freq-boost
> that I'm seeing in this one.
> 
> --
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jun  9 10:41:28 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 10:41:28 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <426EF2A7-7094-46C1-8E2C-17D6847A9AB3@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
 <emc7f11bc7-65b0-448a-b47b-6d4d6cafbdc5@asus_n76>
 <426EF2A7-7094-46C1-8E2C-17D6847A9AB3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52c2746c-8879-411d-26fa-cc64c2f2431e@go2.pl>

I have quite a lot of little clear drawers from Konger, PX-series, 
available at TME worldwide.
They make matching blocks of various drawer sizes, easy to combine 
together. From 2 to 12 drawers in one set of the same size.
In 12-drawer version the price per drawer is about 60 cents.
And the little drawers can be also split in 3 parts thanks to removable 
dividers (ordered separately).

Roman

W dniu 2022-06-09 o?03:02, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy pisze:
> 
>> On Jun 8, 2022, at 8:27 PM, grant musictechnologiesgroup.com 
>> <http://musictechnologiesgroup.com> <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com 
>> <mailto:grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah you can see the attractiveness in using a rolling cart-of-boxes
>> like this (but not for $400!).
>>
>> https://www.worthingtondirect.com/media/catalog/product/m/b/mbs-dr-16s-mobile-bin-storage-cart-luxor.jpg 
>> <https://www.worthingtondirect.com/media/catalog/product/m/b/mbs-dr-16s-mobile-bin-storage-cart-luxor.jpg>
> 
> I bought five of these when the price was under $45:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08W26CNWY <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08W26CNWY>
> 
> 
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
> 
> "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes."?Roy Batty, /Blade 
> Runner/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
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From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Thu Jun  9 15:21:44 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <2e31b24c498bce7e0bdab077469a63ed@richieburnett.co.uk>

> ...so I keep parts in their labeled bags.

Just watch out for any thermal printed labels fading over time.  I've 
been caught out by this several times.  I've had thermal printed labels 
on packets from Farnell/Newark and RS components that have faded to 
unreadable in the space of 3 years.  This is despite them being stored 
in another sealed bag, in a cool dark place.

-Richie,


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jun  9 15:48:48 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 13:48:48 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <2e31b24c498bce7e0bdab077469a63ed@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
 <2e31b24c498bce7e0bdab077469a63ed@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <0c7e3391608546f5b597fd038d33e747@futurehorizons.com>

An annoying thing from RS is their recycling of their own ID codes.  I have some RS own label parts from the 80s and 90s where you enter the 7 digit RS number and see a totally different part displayed.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk
Sent: 09 June 2022 14:22
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff

> ...so I keep parts in their labeled bags.

Just watch out for any thermal printed labels fading over time.  I've been caught out by this several times.  I've had thermal printed labels on packets from Farnell/Newark and RS components that have faded to unreadable in the space of 3 years.  This is despite them being stored in another sealed bag, in a cool dark place.

-Richie,
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Thu Jun  9 18:40:08 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 12:40:08 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <be0ca88d-e984-8b3b-2ac6-3956b8a46109@ix.netcom.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
 <emc7f11bc7-65b0-448a-b47b-6d4d6cafbdc5@asus_n76>
 <426EF2A7-7094-46C1-8E2C-17D6847A9AB3@gmail.com>
 <3FF6058798E64697AF70FAB5F76FBBA1@david78c70950b>
 <be0ca88d-e984-8b3b-2ac6-3956b8a46109@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <A8259F28-BEB5-478B-9406-D91A39623CBE@gmail.com>


> On Jun 8, 2022, at 10:33 PM, Olav Martin Kvern via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I found a bunch of Akro-Mils plastic cabinets (perfect for small components) and a rolling cart thing on the street. Like this:
> 
> https://akro-mils.com/Products/Types/Portable-Small-Parts-Storage/Plastic-Cabinets/10164 <https://akro-mils.com/Products/Types/Portable-Small-Parts-Storage/Plastic-Cabinets/10164>

This one is one sale at Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003P2UOCO <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003P2UOCO>


Lowest price since the pandemic lock-down. I would have bought two but...


> Once I washed the blood off--and I'm not kidding about that--they've been great. No idea what had happened to them, and they don't answer questions when I ask. Probably an Elmore Leonard story in there, somewhere.


Now that's how you properly dispose your hazardous waste.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

Q: Should car stereo speakers be pointed to the rear for more thrust or up for more traction?

A. On long trips, the 20- to 30% improvement in gas mileage you might get with speakers pointing to the rear is certainly worthwhile. On the other hand, if you drive on snow or ice, the extra traction of speakers pointing upward gives you added control.

Don Lancaster

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From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun  9 18:54:14 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 12:54:14 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <DAD83C05-7CC7-4C1E-91DE-7186B29A378C@comcast.net>
References: <5d334ca4-ec84-9e85-fb0c-23888d29e5a3@gmx.com>
 <DAD83C05-7CC7-4C1E-91DE-7186B29A378C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <a87225bc-49c4-0551-4822-8c7507b3fbda@gmx.com>



On 6/9/22 02:52, Ian Fritz via Synth-diy wrote:
> What do you have in there for a tempco resistor?
>
> Ian

i'm using the ankaeohm tempco thermistor, 3300ppm, 1/6w for both
thru-hole and smt versions.

--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From info at synthcube.com  Thu Jun  9 18:54:20 2022
From: info at synthcube.com (info synthcube.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 16:54:20 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <A8259F28-BEB5-478B-9406-D91A39623CBE@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
 <0a80e5e1-ff00-be42-0e9b-05255f133bd3@go2.pl>
 <983918A6-FA80-4800-99C8-63A11AB3811E@audiobanshee.com>
 <emc7f11bc7-65b0-448a-b47b-6d4d6cafbdc5@asus_n76>
 <426EF2A7-7094-46C1-8E2C-17D6847A9AB3@gmail.com>
 <3FF6058798E64697AF70FAB5F76FBBA1@david78c70950b>
 <be0ca88d-e984-8b3b-2ac6-3956b8a46109@ix.netcom.com>
 <A8259F28-BEB5-478B-9406-D91A39623CBE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN8PR18MB2674075D57E354FE8A28260FD2A79@BN8PR18MB2674.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

We use the Akro Mils a LOT here in the warehouse and that Amazon price is a GREAT price at the moment. We just use removable 30330 Dymo labels off the Dymo LabelWriter printer linked to the inventory system. But black and red Sharpies still play a prominent role ?

From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of Terry Bowman via Synth-diy
Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2022 12:40 PM
To: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Labeling Your Hoard of Stuff


On Jun 8, 2022, at 10:33 PM, Olav Martin Kvern via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:

I found a bunch of Akro-Mils plastic cabinets (perfect for small components) and a rolling cart thing on the street. Like this:

https://akro-mils.com/Products/Types/Portable-Small-Parts-Storage/Plastic-Cabinets/10164

This one is one sale at Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003P2UOCO


Lowest price since the pandemic lock-down. I would have bought two but...


Once I washed the blood off--and I'm not kidding about that--they've been great. No idea what had happened to them, and they don't answer questions when I ask. Probably an Elmore Leonard story in there, somewhere.

Now that's how you properly dispose your hazardous waste.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

Q: Should car stereo speakers be pointed to the rear for more thrust or up for more traction?

A. On long trips, the 20- to 30% improvement in gas mileage you might get with speakers pointing to the rear is certainly worthwhile. On the other hand, if you drive on snow or ice, the extra traction of speakers pointing upward gives you added control.

Don Lancaster

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From john at sleefamily.org  Thu Jun  9 20:50:48 2022
From: john at sleefamily.org (jslee)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 04:50:48 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
References: <5B7D9AC1-2F11-4195-B912-5022139EC049@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d07ef6ef-f8f4-4057-a6ed-42042fed8c0d@beta.fastmail.com>

On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, at 09:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy wrote:.
> So what are you guys using?

I previously used Raaco many-drawered cabinets with Dynamo labels on them. After some years the labels lost their ?stick? and started falling off, so I recently emptied all the drawer contents into heavyweight (so they stand up tall on their own) 6x4? zip-lock bags in plastic tubs.

I label the bags with a sharpie along one side and have the zip edge to the right ? that way the label is at the top for fast random access, and my fingers don?t wear away the sharpie label when opening/closing the bag.

This is also far more dense than the Raaco cabinets.

For more bulky parts like jacks/pots/knobs I use some plastic multi-compartment cases of the kind you might use to store collections of fasteners.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/323988278307

https://www.bunnings.com.au/handy-storage-400mm-storage-tote-size-40_p2583754 <https://www.bunnings.com.au/handy-storage-400mm-storage-tote-size-40_p2583754?store=4056&gbraid=0AAAAADtbEB80H8sdfS_A1qEYfChfK72mW&gbraid=0AAAAADtbEB80H8sdfS_A1qEYfChfK72mW&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7Lr_wYOh-AIVZplmAh1z1Qi5EAQYASABEgJnS_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds>

https://www.bunnings.com.au/tactix-405mm-organiser-with-12-standard-removable-tubs_p0095848

John
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From ijfritz at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 21:54:48 2022
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 13:54:48 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] Labelling Your Horde Of Stuff
In-Reply-To: <d07ef6ef-f8f4-4057-a6ed-42042fed8c0d@beta.fastmail.com>
References: <d07ef6ef-f8f4-4057-a6ed-42042fed8c0d@beta.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <2979C20C-219B-4499-807E-E1D62B44E699@comcast.net>

Ha, there?s a trick for that! Just put the label back on with a small dot of superglue. There is some kind of mysterious synergy there ? they never come off again.

I?m big on using plastic tubs, too. General category labels on the tubs then fill ?em up with small boxes, jars, ziplocks, whatever.

Ian

> On Jun 9, 2022, at 12:54 PM, jslee via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, at 09:34, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy wrote:.
>> So what are you guys using?
> 
> I previously used Raaco many-drawered cabinets with Dynamo labels on them. After some years the labels lost their ?stick? and started falling off, so I recently emptied all the drawer contents into heavyweight (so they stand up tall on their own) 6x4? zip-lock bags in plastic tubs.
> 
> I label the bags with a sharpie along one side and have the zip edge to the right ? that way the label is at the top for fast random access, and my fingers don?t wear away the sharpie label when opening/closing the bag.
> 
> This is also far more dense than the Raaco cabinets.
> 
> For more bulky parts like jacks/pots/knobs I use some plastic multi-compartment cases of the kind you might use to store collections of fasteners.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/323988278307
> 
> https://www.bunnings.com.au/handy-storage-400mm-storage-tote-size-40_p2583754
> 
> https://www.bunnings.com.au/tactix-405mm-organiser-with-12-standard-removable-tubs_p0095848
> 
> John
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From ijfritz at comcast.net  Fri Jun 10 10:44:29 2022
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 02:44:29 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <a87225bc-49c4-0551-4822-8c7507b3fbda@gmx.com>
References: <a87225bc-49c4-0551-4822-8c7507b3fbda@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <96E20D48-E77A-4AF0-8886-8A4D14B6896A@comcast.net>

Thanks for the clarification.

When you suddenly jump up an octave does the sharpness occur instantaneously or does it drift up in frequency after the cv jump?

Ian

> On Jun 9, 2022, at 10:56 AM, Neil Harper via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
>> On 6/9/22 02:52, Ian Fritz via Synth-diy wrote:
>> What do you have in there for a tempco resistor?
>> 
>> Ian
> 
> i'm using the ankaeohm tempco thermistor, 3300ppm, 1/6w for both
> thru-hole and smt versions.
> 
> --
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jun 10 10:47:09 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 10:47:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?

Thanks


From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 10 10:56:09 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:56:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>

cheater cheater wrote:
> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?

LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.

Neil


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 10 12:17:32 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 10:17:32 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>

Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
To: cheater cheater
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs

cheater cheater wrote:
> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at 
> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only 
> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do 
> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?

LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.

Neil
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jun 10 14:32:19 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 14:32:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> To: cheater cheater
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>
> cheater cheater wrote:
> > I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
> > something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
> > starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
> > I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
>
> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
>
> Neil
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


From sleepy_dog at gmx.de  Fri Jun 10 14:48:09 2022
From: sleepy_dog at gmx.de (sleepy_dog at gmx.de)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 14:48:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>


they were being a bit mean to you ;)

I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess what's
talked about?) as having "1 bit",
but by the number of bits their data register has, and that won't be 1,
as the things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make
something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically
wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my
superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things
as black box)

cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
>> To: cheater cheater
>> Cc: synth-diy
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>>
>> cheater cheater wrote:
>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
>>> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
>>> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
>>> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
>>
>> Neil
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>




From phil.macphail at liivatera.com  Fri Jun 10 14:51:01 2022
From: phil.macphail at liivatera.com (Phil Macphail)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:51:01 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31B05A64-CECA-4950-8A48-433A0097C473@liivatera.com>

Do you mean a 1-bit ADC, or a sigma-delta ADC? Big difference, as Neil indicates,


Phil.


> On 10. Jun 2022, at 15:32, cheater cheater via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> 
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
>> To: cheater cheater
>> Cc: synth-diy
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>> 
>> cheater cheater wrote:
>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
>>> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
>>> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
>>> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
>> 
>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
>> 
>> Neil
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Jun 10 15:00:44 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 14:00:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>

It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:

https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837

Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!

> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> 
> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess what's
> talked about?) as having "1 bit",
> but by the number of bits their data register has, and that won't be 1,
> as the things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make
> something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically
> wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my
> superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things
> as black box)
> 
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
>>> To: cheater cheater
>>> Cc: synth-diy
>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>>> 
>>> cheater cheater wrote:
>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
>>>> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
>>>> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
>>>> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
>>> 
>>> Neil
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 10 15:30:51 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 13:30:51 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>,
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <496ed2be-e47e-478a-b4c9-261cf85a5dbc@email.android.com>

Do you mean a 1 bit PDM converter, or just one that DSPs into 24 bits internally?

On 10 Jun 2022 13:33, cheater cheater <cheater00social at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> To: cheater cheater
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>
> cheater cheater wrote:
> > I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
> > something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
> > starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
> > I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
>
> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
>
> Neil
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>

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From synth at schmitzbits.de  Fri Jun 10 15:39:09 2022
From: synth at schmitzbits.de (=?UTF-8?Q?Ren=c3=a9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:39:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <ef4470d4-9ce9-76c3-0864-52972450e7c3@schmitzbits.de>


Am 10.06.2022 um 15:00 schrieb Tom Wiltshire:
> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
>
> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837

Done that too. Copying the delta labs encoders (straight from the 
patent). They are technically 1-bit as well.

https://www.schmitzbits.de/ddl.html


Best,
 ?Ren?




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jun 10 15:40:35 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:40:35 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>

Tom,
that's kinda what I want, but different.
I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 bits
usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream output. I would
prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24 bits) because I would
prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically making a "digital audio
snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because
it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).

A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth
oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for audio
quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears... But no,
seriously, looking for good audio quality.

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>
> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
>
> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
>
> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
>
> > On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> >
> > I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess what's
> > talked about?) as having "1 bit",
> > but by the number of bits their data register has, and that won't be 1,
> > as the things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make
> > something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically
> > wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my
> > superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things
> > as black box)
> >
> > cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> >> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> >>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> >>> To: cheater cheater
> >>> Cc: synth-diy
> >>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> >>>
> >>> cheater cheater wrote:
> >>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
> >>>> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
> >>>> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
> >>>> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> >>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> >>>
> >>> Neil
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Jun 10 16:23:01 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:23:01 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D985E273-2373-40EC-AE42-3B47D3E9268C@electricdruid.net>

Ok, so you need 16-channel ADC with a digital output, and a matching 16-channel DAC to convert back at the other end.

I was once on holiday in Greece with an Engineer from Soundcraft who spent his time designing stuff like you describe - his big thing was digital links from the stage to the front-of-house desk, and he was running large numbers of channels at 24-bit/96KHz quality down gigabit ethernet cable or similar, iirc.

My advice is to forget about "1 bit" because I don't think that's going to take you anywhere useful as a search term. While in theory the latency is small and the sample rate is high for the basic 1-bit convertors we've been talking about, in practice you need to average many samples to get the equivalent of a single 16-bit or 24-bit sample anyway, so you lose that advantage. You might as well look for 16-bit or 24-bit multichannel convertors and then select one that has a low latency and a reasonable price.


> On 10 Jun 2022, at 14:40, cheater cheater <cheater00social at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Tom,
> that's kinda what I want, but different.
> I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 bits
> usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream output. I would
> prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24 bits) because I would
> prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically making a "digital audio
> snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because
> it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> 
> A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth
> oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for audio
> quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears... But no,
> seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>> 
>> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
>> 
>> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
>> 
>> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
>> 
>>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
>>> 
>>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess what's
>>> talked about?) as having "1 bit",
>>> but by the number of bits their data register has, and that won't be 1,
>>> as the things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make
>>> something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically
>>> wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my
>>> superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things
>>> as black box)
>>> 
>>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
>>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
>>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
>>>>> To: cheater cheater
>>>>> Cc: synth-diy
>>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>>>>> 
>>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
>>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
>>>>>> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
>>>>>> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
>>>>>> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
>>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Neil
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 10 16:30:24 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:30:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <D985E273-2373-40EC-AE42-3B47D3E9268C@electricdruid.net>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D985E273-2373-40EC-AE42-3B47D3E9268C@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxKabWs7ojYCDCy5jc27EPa-JdY-7hd3uNxHDGyx5_t1zg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tom,

> I was once on holiday in Greece with an Engineer from Soundcraft who spent his time designing stuff like you describe - his big thing was digital links from the stage to the front-of-house desk, and he was running large numbers of channels at 24-bit/96KHz quality down gigabit ethernet cable or similar, iirc.

Was he talking about Dante?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_(networking)

Neil



From ebrombaugh at gmail.com  Fri Jun 10 16:32:45 2022
From: ebrombaugh at gmail.com (Eric Brombaugh)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 07:32:45 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>

The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital. There 
are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:

https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD1955.pdf

Eric

On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> Tom,
> that's kinda what I want, but different.
> I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 bits
> usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream output. I would
> prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24 bits) because I would
> prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically making a "digital audio
> snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because
> it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> 
> A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth
> oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for audio
> quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears... But no,
> seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>>
>> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
>>
>> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
>>
>> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
>>
>>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
>>>
>>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess what's
>>> talked about?) as having "1 bit",
>>> but by the number of bits their data register has, and that won't be 1,
>>> as the things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make
>>> something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically
>>> wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my
>>> superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things
>>> as black box)
>>>
>>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
>>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
>>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
>>>>> To: cheater cheater
>>>>> Cc: synth-diy
>>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>>>>>
>>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
>>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
>>>>>> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
>>>>>> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
>>>>>> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
>>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neil
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 10 17:22:59 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:22:59 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxKabWs7ojYCDCy5jc27EPa-JdY-7hd3uNxHDGyx5_t1zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D985E273-2373-40EC-AE42-3B47D3E9268C@electricdruid.net>
 <CACZGMxKabWs7ojYCDCy5jc27EPa-JdY-7hd3uNxHDGyx5_t1zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0455e09e586464c880b841567397929@futurehorizons.com>

Unfortunately there are about as many Audio over Ethernet 'standards' as there are major audio companies.  Dante is just one of a number and is very expensive to licence.  
AES50 and AVB are two different standards bodies attempts at a proper open standard, but there's still a lot of variations out there, and it's too expensive to build a conversion box as you'd have to licence each of the versions it could convert between.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_Ethernet



-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
Sent: 10 June 2022 15:30
To: Tom Wiltshire
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs

Hi Tom,

> I was once on holiday in Greece with an Engineer from Soundcraft who spent his time designing stuff like you describe - his big thing was digital links from the stage to the front-of-house desk, and he was running large numbers of channels at 24-bit/96KHz quality down gigabit ethernet cable or similar, iirc.

Was he talking about Dante?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_(networking)

Neil

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From metadata at gmx.com  Fri Jun 10 18:09:31 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 12:09:31 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <96E20D48-E77A-4AF0-8886-8A4D14B6896A@comcast.net>
References: <a87225bc-49c4-0551-4822-8c7507b3fbda@gmx.com>
 <96E20D48-E77A-4AF0-8886-8A4D14B6896A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <94d3641e-8ae0-8850-5d70-3ee5178e1767@gmx.com>



On 6/10/22 04:44, Ian Fritz via Synth-diy wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
> When you suddenly jump up an octave does the sharpness occur instantaneously or does it drift up in frequency after the cv jump?
>
> Ian

hi Ian,

the sharpness is just always there, it doesn't slowly drift up.

--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From barryklein at cox.net  Fri Jun 10 19:25:28 2022
From: barryklein at cox.net (Barry Klein)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 10:25:28 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Testing codecs
Message-ID: <9A3BD216-2D5B-4F79-9350-1398E091F4CA@cox.net>

Since we are seeing digital audio converter questions I?ll post two:
Codec specs show ADC and DAC specs but some of the codecs I am evaluating are difficult to test using the digital I/O and I have been testing audio in audio out with no DSP manipulations (SigmaDSP). I am wondering why the codecs aren?t specd for this configuration as it is likely pretty common.  
Another question is about the gain structures of the boards. Not always 1:1 in:out.  2Vrms in/900mV out on ADAU1401A  I think for example.  Do I modify results or config to compensate?
I have a QA401 and had a APx555 for a week and a half.

Barry



From ijfritz at comcast.net  Fri Jun 10 19:46:00 2022
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 11:46:00 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <94d3641e-8ae0-8850-5d70-3ee5178e1767@gmx.com>
References: <94d3641e-8ae0-8850-5d70-3ee5178e1767@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <2FF1EAD6-6255-4F3D-B2F9-72EBE52B2ADB@comcast.net>

Thanks. I saw a bit of self-heating when I was measuring tempcos of some small units a while back, which is why I asked.

> On Jun 10, 2022, at 10:12 AM, Neil Harper via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
>> On 6/10/22 04:44, Ian Fritz via Synth-diy wrote:
>> Thanks for the clarification.
>> 
>> When you suddenly jump up an octave does the sharpness occur instantaneously or does it drift up in frequency after the cv jump?
>> 
>> Ian
> 
> hi Ian,
> 
> the sharpness is just always there, it doesn't slowly drift up.
> 
> --
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Fri Jun 10 21:11:48 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 21:11:48 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Eric. I thought 1-bit streams were a generic output and DSD
was a very specific format - or is DSD used for such signals at any
frequency?

Do you agree with Tom regarding the latency?


On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:36 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital. There
> are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:
>
> https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222
>
> https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD1955.pdf
>
> Eric
>
> On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > Tom,
> > that's kinda what I want, but different.
> > I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 bits
> > usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream output. I would
> > prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24 bits) because I would
> > prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically making a "digital audio
> > snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> > If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because
> > it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> >
> > A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth
> > oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for audio
> > quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears... But no,
> > seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
> >>
> >> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
> >>
> >> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
> >>
> >>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> >>>
> >>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess what's
> >>> talked about?) as having "1 bit",
> >>> but by the number of bits their data register has, and that won't be 1,
> >>> as the things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make
> >>> something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically
> >>> wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my
> >>> superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things
> >>> as black box)
> >>>
> >>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> >>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> >>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> >>>>> To: cheater cheater
> >>>>> Cc: synth-diy
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> >>>>>
> >>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
> >>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
> >>>>>> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
> >>>>>> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
> >>>>>> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> >>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Neil
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 10 23:02:46 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 21:02:46 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>

You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.

Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
Sent: 10 June 2022 20:12
To: Eric Brombaugh
Cc: synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs

Thanks, Eric. I thought 1-bit streams were a generic output and DSD was a very specific format - or is DSD used for such signals at any frequency?

Do you agree with Tom regarding the latency?


On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:36 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital. 
> There are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:
>
> https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222
>
> https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD
> 1955.pdf
>
> Eric
>
> On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > Tom,
> > that's kinda what I want, but different.
> > I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 bits 
> > usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream output. I 
> > would prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24 bits) because I 
> > would prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically making a "digital 
> > audio snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> > If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because 
> > it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> >
> > A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth 
> > oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for audio 
> > quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears... But no, 
> > seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
> >>
> >> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
> >>
> >> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
> >>
> >>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> >>>
> >>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess 
> >>> what's talked about?) as having "1 bit", but by the number of bits 
> >>> their data register has, and that won't be 1, as the things are 
> >>> supposed to take the burden off of you, to make something useful 
> >>> out of a signal sampled that way. You typically wouldn't want to 
> >>> implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my superficial 
> >>> understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things as 
> >>> black box)
> >>>
> >>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> >>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On 
> >>>>> Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> >>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> >>>>> To: cheater cheater
> >>>>> Cc: synth-diy
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> >>>>>
> >>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
> >>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that 
> >>>>>> runs at something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. 
> >>>>>> Mouser only starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google 
> >>>>>> isn't helpful. How do I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> >>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Neil
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 10 23:10:21 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 21:10:21 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Testing codecs
In-Reply-To: <9A3BD216-2D5B-4F79-9350-1398E091F4CA@cox.net>
References: <9A3BD216-2D5B-4F79-9350-1398E091F4CA@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3ba5dcec8cf54913b543d3d1f188e94a@futurehorizons.com>

The ADAU1401 (and many other ADI ADCs) has a current input so the input level structure is set purely by the external resistance of the audio source.  Not sure why you'd want to spec the A-D-A performance separately.  It's just the A-D and D-A combined.

Hadn't noticed before the DAC output is a bit low.  As it is balanced I'd have expected a good 4V pk-pk, but it's probably down to using only a 3.3V supply whereas some TI parts use a switched capacitor multiplier.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Barry Klein via Synth-diy
Sent: 10 June 2022 18:25
To: Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: [sdiy] Testing codecs

Since we are seeing digital audio converter questions I?ll post two:
Codec specs show ADC and DAC specs but some of the codecs I am evaluating are difficult to test using the digital I/O and I have been testing audio in audio out with no DSP manipulations (SigmaDSP). I am wondering why the codecs aren?t specd for this configuration as it is likely pretty common.  
Another question is about the gain structures of the boards. Not always 1:1 in:out.  2Vrms in/900mV out on ADAU1401A  I think for example.  Do I modify results or config to compensate?
I have a QA401 and had a APx555 for a week and a half.

Barry

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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jun 11 00:12:10 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 00:12:10 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>

So are you saying my bergkristall cable elevator pyramids are a fad?

I understand the point of removing the out of band distortion at the
DAC, but if I use, say, a 13.1 MHz signal to transfer an effective "16
bit depth" 50 kHz audio signal over that, why does the in-band get
delayed when the out-of-band gets low pass filtered away?

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.
>
> Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 June 2022 20:12
> To: Eric Brombaugh
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>
> Thanks, Eric. I thought 1-bit streams were a generic output and DSD was a very specific format - or is DSD used for such signals at any frequency?
>
> Do you agree with Tom regarding the latency?
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:36 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital.
> > There are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:
> >
> > https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222
> >
> > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD
> > 1955.pdf
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > > Tom,
> > > that's kinda what I want, but different.
> > > I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 bits
> > > usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream output. I
> > > would prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24 bits) because I
> > > would prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically making a "digital
> > > audio snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> > > If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because
> > > it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> > >
> > > A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth
> > > oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for audio
> > > quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears... But no,
> > > seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
> > >>
> > >> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
> > >>
> > >> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
> > >>
> > >>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> > >>>
> > >>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess
> > >>> what's talked about?) as having "1 bit", but by the number of bits
> > >>> their data register has, and that won't be 1, as the things are
> > >>> supposed to take the burden off of you, to make something useful
> > >>> out of a signal sampled that way. You typically wouldn't want to
> > >>> implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my superficial
> > >>> understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things as
> > >>> black box)
> > >>>
> > >>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> > >>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On
> > >>>>> Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> > >>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> > >>>>> To: cheater cheater
> > >>>>> Cc: synth-diy
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
> > >>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that
> > >>>>>> runs at something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio.
> > >>>>>> Mouser only starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google
> > >>>>>> isn't helpful. How do I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> > >>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Neil
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > >>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > >>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Synth-diy mailing list
> > >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jun 11 00:28:51 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 22:28:51 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e389c03ad7ca4775b40335a043dc159f@futurehorizons.com>

Well I googled " bergkristall cable elevator pyramids" and didn't find anything :-)

The digitised audio signal contains the original signal plus various noise and distortion products, which hopefully if the correct jitter has been applied at the ADC are out of band.  But some will be only just out of band, and hence even if you are sampling at 96/192/384 kHz, you still need a fast cutoff filter.  This inherently has more group delay (not sample delay which can actually be as low as a single sample) than one with a slower cutoff.   The best ADC-DAC systems used to achieve about 2 to 3mS, but in recent years this seems to be down to as low as 800uS.  However I am not convinced they sound quite as good in live audio systems, but that's a subjective opinion of course.


-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 10 June 2022 23:12
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs

So are you saying my bergkristall cable elevator pyramids are a fad?

I understand the point of removing the out of band distortion at the DAC, but if I use, say, a 13.1 MHz signal to transfer an effective "16 bit depth" 50 kHz audio signal over that, why does the in-band get delayed when the out-of-band gets low pass filtered away?

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.
>
> Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> Sent: 10 June 2022 20:12
> To: Eric Brombaugh
> Cc: synth-diy
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>
> Thanks, Eric. I thought 1-bit streams were a generic output and DSD was a very specific format - or is DSD used for such signals at any frequency?
>
> Do you agree with Tom regarding the latency?
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:36 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital.
> > There are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:
> >
> > https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222
> >
> > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/
> > AD
> > 1955.pdf
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > > Tom,
> > > that's kinda what I want, but different.
> > > I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 
> > > bits usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream 
> > > output. I would prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24 
> > > bits) because I would prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically 
> > > making a "digital audio snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> > > If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because 
> > > it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> > >
> > > A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth 
> > > oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for 
> > > audio quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears... 
> > > But no, seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
> > >>
> > >> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
> > >>
> > >> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
> > >>
> > >>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> > >>>
> > >>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess 
> > >>> what's talked about?) as having "1 bit", but by the number of 
> > >>> bits their data register has, and that won't be 1, as the things 
> > >>> are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make something 
> > >>> useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically wouldn't 
> > >>> want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my 
> > >>> superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used 
> > >>> those things as black box)
> > >>>
> > >>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> > >>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On 
> > >>>>> Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> > >>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> > >>>>> To: cheater cheater
> > >>>>> Cc: synth-diy
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
> > >>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that 
> > >>>>>> runs at something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio.
> > >>>>>> Mouser only starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google 
> > >>>>>> isn't helpful. How do I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> > >>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Neil
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > >>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > >>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Synth-diy mailing list
> > >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jun 11 01:05:28 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 01:05:28 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <e389c03ad7ca4775b40335a043dc159f@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e389c03ad7ca4775b40335a043dc159f@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8mKpPdzk3PNKJpt7GOPYFEHiPGLup_E4HJ_KOrAGSPVw@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, that's a lot! I had no idea!

Can't one use something like a 16-bit 500 kHz ADC/DAC, and a slow
cutoff at 22 kHz? Wouldn't the "just out of band" stuff be above 500
kHz anyways?

On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 12:28 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Well I googled " bergkristall cable elevator pyramids" and didn't find anything :-)
>
> The digitised audio signal contains the original signal plus various noise and distortion products, which hopefully if the correct jitter has been applied at the ADC are out of band.  But some will be only just out of band, and hence even if you are sampling at 96/192/384 kHz, you still need a fast cutoff filter.  This inherently has more group delay (not sample delay which can actually be as low as a single sample) than one with a slower cutoff.   The best ADC-DAC systems used to achieve about 2 to 3mS, but in recent years this seems to be down to as low as 800uS.  However I am not convinced they sound quite as good in live audio systems, but that's a subjective opinion of course.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 10 June 2022 23:12
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>
> So are you saying my bergkristall cable elevator pyramids are a fad?
>
> I understand the point of removing the out of band distortion at the DAC, but if I use, say, a 13.1 MHz signal to transfer an effective "16 bit depth" 50 kHz audio signal over that, why does the in-band get delayed when the out-of-band gets low pass filtered away?
>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> > You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.
> >
> > Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of
> > cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 10 June 2022 20:12
> > To: Eric Brombaugh
> > Cc: synth-diy
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> >
> > Thanks, Eric. I thought 1-bit streams were a generic output and DSD was a very specific format - or is DSD used for such signals at any frequency?
> >
> > Do you agree with Tom regarding the latency?
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:36 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital.
> > > There are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:
> > >
> > > https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222
> > >
> > > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/
> > > AD
> > > 1955.pdf
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > > On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > > > Tom,
> > > > that's kinda what I want, but different.
> > > > I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12
> > > > bits usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream
> > > > output. I would prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24
> > > > bits) because I would prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically
> > > > making a "digital audio snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> > > > If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because
> > > > it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> > > >
> > > > A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth
> > > > oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for
> > > > audio quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears...
> > > > But no, seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
> > > >>
> > > >> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
> > > >>
> > > >>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess
> > > >>> what's talked about?) as having "1 bit", but by the number of
> > > >>> bits their data register has, and that won't be 1, as the things
> > > >>> are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make something
> > > >>> useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically wouldn't
> > > >>> want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my
> > > >>> superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used
> > > >>> those things as black box)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> > > >>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On
> > > >>>>> Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> > > >>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> > > >>>>> To: cheater cheater
> > > >>>>> Cc: synth-diy
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
> > > >>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that
> > > >>>>>> runs at something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio.
> > > >>>>>> Mouser only starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google
> > > >>>>>> isn't helpful. How do I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> > > >>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Neil
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > >>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > >>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > >>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
>



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jun 11 01:15:05 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 23:15:05 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8mKpPdzk3PNKJpt7GOPYFEHiPGLup_E4HJ_KOrAGSPVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e389c03ad7ca4775b40335a043dc159f@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-8mKpPdzk3PNKJpt7GOPYFEHiPGLup_E4HJ_KOrAGSPVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <191e32aa36ee474c8b0a967e44443d4c@futurehorizons.com>

If you are sampling at 500kHz, then the out of band noise extends from say 18kHz up to 250kHz.   Using a higher sampling rate does mean there is less noise from the additive jitter in the audio region as it is spread more thinly, but other sources of noise come into play at higher sampling rates, especially if you are using a lower number of bits, something the advocates of SACD tend to ignore.  For example a few nS of clock jitter due for example to poor crosstalk on a 48kHz sampling signal isn't too bad, but the same absolute jitter on a 2.3 MHz clock will affect the audio quality.


-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 11 June 2022 00:05
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs

Wow, that's a lot! I had no idea!

Can't one use something like a 16-bit 500 kHz ADC/DAC, and a slow cutoff at 22 kHz? Wouldn't the "just out of band" stuff be above 500 kHz anyways?

On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 12:28 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> Well I googled " bergkristall cable elevator pyramids" and didn't find 
> anything :-)
>
> The digitised audio signal contains the original signal plus various noise and distortion products, which hopefully if the correct jitter has been applied at the ADC are out of band.  But some will be only just out of band, and hence even if you are sampling at 96/192/384 kHz, you still need a fast cutoff filter.  This inherently has more group delay (not sample delay which can actually be as low as a single sample) than one with a slower cutoff.   The best ADC-DAC systems used to achieve about 2 to 3mS, but in recent years this seems to be down to as low as 800uS.  However I am not convinced they sound quite as good in live audio systems, but that's a subjective opinion of course.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 10 June 2022 23:12
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>
> So are you saying my bergkristall cable elevator pyramids are a fad?
>
> I understand the point of removing the out of band distortion at the DAC, but if I use, say, a 13.1 MHz signal to transfer an effective "16 bit depth" 50 kHz audio signal over that, why does the in-band get delayed when the out-of-band gets low pass filtered away?
>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> > You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.
> >
> > Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf 
> > Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > Sent: 10 June 2022 20:12
> > To: Eric Brombaugh
> > Cc: synth-diy
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> >
> > Thanks, Eric. I thought 1-bit streams were a generic output and DSD was a very specific format - or is DSD used for such signals at any frequency?
> >
> > Do you agree with Tom regarding the latency?
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:36 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital.
> > > There are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:
> > >
> > > https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222
> > >
> > > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheet
> > > s/
> > > AD
> > > 1955.pdf
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > > On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > > > Tom,
> > > > that's kinda what I want, but different.
> > > > I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 
> > > > bits usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream 
> > > > output. I would prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24
> > > > bits) because I would prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically 
> > > > making a "digital audio snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> > > > If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better 
> > > > (because it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> > > >
> > > > A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth 
> > > > oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for 
> > > > audio quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears...
> > > > But no, seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
> > > >>
> > > >> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
> > > >>
> > > >>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess 
> > > >>> what's talked about?) as having "1 bit", but by the number of 
> > > >>> bits their data register has, and that won't be 1, as the 
> > > >>> things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make 
> > > >>> something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You 
> > > >>> typically wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm 
> > > >>> pretty sure. (from my superficial understanding of the topic. 
> > > >>> I've only ever used those things as black box)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> > > >>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On 
> > > >>>>> Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> > > >>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> > > >>>>> To: cheater cheater
> > > >>>>> Cc: synth-diy
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
> > > >>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind 
> > > >>>>>> that runs at something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio.
> > > >>>>>> Mouser only starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google 
> > > >>>>>> isn't helpful. How do I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> > > >>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Neil
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > >>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > >>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > >>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
>




From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sat Jun 11 01:21:29 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 16:21:29 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2B82A89-AD29-4BD4-A0A1-E272F67842CB@audiobanshee.com>

If you want good DC precision, then you should specifically stay away from delta-sigma converters - it doesn't matter whether they're intended for audio.

The two bit values in delta-sigma are +1 and -1 ... there literally is no code for DC (i.e. ?0)

There are plenty of multi-bit ADC that work at hundreds of MegaHertz that will have great DC precision.

Even the best ADC chips are using multi-bit front ends and converting to 1-bit internally, just to avoid the noise of true 1-bit ADC.


Granted, if you want multi-bit ADC conversion with a serial interface, then that's easy, too. SPI or I2S will be required, since I2C doesn't clock fast enough for Megahertz conversion rates.


On Jun 10, 2022, at 6:40 AM, cheater cheater> wrote:
> Tom,
> that's kinda what I want, but different.
> I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 bits
> usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream output. I would
> prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24 bits) because I would
> prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically making a "digital audio
> snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better (because
> it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> 
> A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth
> oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for audio
> quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears... But no,
> seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>> 
>> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
>> 
>> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
>> 
>> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
>> 
>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve wrote:
>>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
>>> 
>>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess what's
>>> talked about?) as having "1 bit",
>>> but by the number of bits their data register has, and that won't be 1,
>>> as the things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make
>>> something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You typically
>>> wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm pretty sure. (from my
>>> superficial understanding of the topic. I've only ever used those things
>>> as black box)
>>> 
>>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Neil Johnson
>>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
>>>>> 
>>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
>>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind that runs at
>>>>>> something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio. Mouser only
>>>>>> starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google isn't helpful. How do
>>>>>> I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
>>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Neil




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jun 11 01:22:30 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 01:22:30 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <191e32aa36ee474c8b0a967e44443d4c@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e389c03ad7ca4775b40335a043dc159f@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-8mKpPdzk3PNKJpt7GOPYFEHiPGLup_E4HJ_KOrAGSPVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <191e32aa36ee474c8b0a967e44443d4c@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V--Ay+ue=gHRAp9rymDoMTx2Vdy3Yfy9yhGNubBFOi7UKg@mail.gmail.com>

All ADC/DAC pairs could/would be connected to the same homogenous
clock source spread around the room via coax, and there would be no
delay between the output of the ADC and the input to the DAC - think
this alleviates some jitter worries? If you call the delay of clock
pulses compared to the perfect clock at sample n d[n], my guess is
that variance between d[n] and d[n+1] would be much lower than general
variance between d[n] and d[n+k] for some k that's up to, say, 64.

I could just have a single clock for all those ADC/DAC pairs - which
means I could blow out on a high precision clock - think that would
help?

On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 1:15 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> If you are sampling at 500kHz, then the out of band noise extends from say 18kHz up to 250kHz.   Using a higher sampling rate does mean there is less noise from the additive jitter in the audio region as it is spread more thinly, but other sources of noise come into play at higher sampling rates, especially if you are using a lower number of bits, something the advocates of SACD tend to ignore.  For example a few nS of clock jitter due for example to poor crosstalk on a 48kHz sampling signal isn't too bad, but the same absolute jitter on a 2.3 MHz clock will affect the audio quality.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 11 June 2022 00:05
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>
> Wow, that's a lot! I had no idea!
>
> Can't one use something like a 16-bit 500 kHz ADC/DAC, and a slow cutoff at 22 kHz? Wouldn't the "just out of band" stuff be above 500 kHz anyways?
>
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 12:28 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well I googled " bergkristall cable elevator pyramids" and didn't find
> > anything :-)
> >
> > The digitised audio signal contains the original signal plus various noise and distortion products, which hopefully if the correct jitter has been applied at the ADC are out of band.  But some will be only just out of band, and hence even if you are sampling at 96/192/384 kHz, you still need a fast cutoff filter.  This inherently has more group delay (not sample delay which can actually be as low as a single sample) than one with a slower cutoff.   The best ADC-DAC systems used to achieve about 2 to 3mS, but in recent years this seems to be down to as low as 800uS.  However I am not convinced they sound quite as good in live audio systems, but that's a subjective opinion of course.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> > Sent: 10 June 2022 23:12
> > To: Mike Bryant
> > Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> >
> > So are you saying my bergkristall cable elevator pyramids are a fad?
> >
> > I understand the point of removing the out of band distortion at the DAC, but if I use, say, a 13.1 MHz signal to transfer an effective "16 bit depth" 50 kHz audio signal over that, why does the in-band get delayed when the out-of-band gets low pass filtered away?
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.
> > >
> > > Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf
> > > Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > > Sent: 10 June 2022 20:12
> > > To: Eric Brombaugh
> > > Cc: synth-diy
> > > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> > >
> > > Thanks, Eric. I thought 1-bit streams were a generic output and DSD was a very specific format - or is DSD used for such signals at any frequency?
> > >
> > > Do you agree with Tom regarding the latency?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:36 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital.
> > > > There are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222
> > > >
> > > > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheet
> > > > s/
> > > > AD
> > > > 1955.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> > > >
> > > > On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > > > > Tom,
> > > > > that's kinda what I want, but different.
> > > > > I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12
> > > > > bits usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream
> > > > > output. I would prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24
> > > > > bits) because I would prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm basically
> > > > > making a "digital audio snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> > > > > If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better
> > > > > (because it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> > > > >
> > > > > A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth
> > > > > oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for
> > > > > audio quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears...
> > > > > But no, seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I guess
> > > > >>> what's talked about?) as having "1 bit", but by the number of
> > > > >>> bits their data register has, and that won't be 1, as the
> > > > >>> things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to make
> > > > >>> something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You
> > > > >>> typically wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm
> > > > >>> pretty sure. (from my superficial understanding of the topic.
> > > > >>> I've only ever used those things as black box)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> > > > >>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On
> > > > >>>>> Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> > > > >>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> > > > >>>>> To: cheater cheater
> > > > >>>>> Cc: synth-diy
> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind
> > > > >>>>>> that runs at something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio.
> > > > >>>>>> Mouser only starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and google
> > > > >>>>>> isn't helpful. How do I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> > > > >>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Neil
> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > >>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > >>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >
> >
>



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jun 11 01:32:34 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 23:32:34 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V--Ay+ue=gHRAp9rymDoMTx2Vdy3Yfy9yhGNubBFOi7UKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e389c03ad7ca4775b40335a043dc159f@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-8mKpPdzk3PNKJpt7GOPYFEHiPGLup_E4HJ_KOrAGSPVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <191e32aa36ee474c8b0a967e44443d4c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--Ay+ue=gHRAp9rymDoMTx2Vdy3Yfy9yhGNubBFOi7UKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48e6692227b54d88912b34357cb65996@futurehorizons.com>

You have to have the same clock everywhere no matter how it is distributed, otherwise you'll need flexible length buffers and possibly sample rate convertors.

The jitter noise I am thinking of is where the audio signal itself gets into the PLL inside the ADC or DAC, usually due to incorrect grounding.  That noise will differ on a channel by channel, and sample by sample basis, but is a common problem with digital audio systems.

But a studio quality clock is always a good investment.  I use one from Drawmer, but others are available.

-----Original Message-----
From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com] 
Sent: 11 June 2022 00:23
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs

All ADC/DAC pairs could/would be connected to the same homogenous clock source spread around the room via coax, and there would be no delay between the output of the ADC and the input to the DAC - think this alleviates some jitter worries? If you call the delay of clock pulses compared to the perfect clock at sample n d[n], my guess is that variance between d[n] and d[n+1] would be much lower than general variance between d[n] and d[n+k] for some k that's up to, say, 64.

I could just have a single clock for all those ADC/DAC pairs - which means I could blow out on a high precision clock - think that would help?

On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 1:15 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
> If you are sampling at 500kHz, then the out of band noise extends from say 18kHz up to 250kHz.   Using a higher sampling rate does mean there is less noise from the additive jitter in the audio region as it is spread more thinly, but other sources of noise come into play at higher sampling rates, especially if you are using a lower number of bits, something the advocates of SACD tend to ignore.  For example a few nS of clock jitter due for example to poor crosstalk on a 48kHz sampling signal isn't too bad, but the same absolute jitter on a 2.3 MHz clock will affect the audio quality.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> Sent: 11 June 2022 00:05
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
>
> Wow, that's a lot! I had no idea!
>
> Can't one use something like a 16-bit 500 kHz ADC/DAC, and a slow cutoff at 22 kHz? Wouldn't the "just out of band" stuff be above 500 kHz anyways?
>
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 12:28 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well I googled " bergkristall cable elevator pyramids" and didn't 
> > find anything :-)
> >
> > The digitised audio signal contains the original signal plus various noise and distortion products, which hopefully if the correct jitter has been applied at the ADC are out of band.  But some will be only just out of band, and hence even if you are sampling at 96/192/384 kHz, you still need a fast cutoff filter.  This inherently has more group delay (not sample delay which can actually be as low as a single sample) than one with a slower cutoff.   The best ADC-DAC systems used to achieve about 2 to 3mS, but in recent years this seems to be down to as low as 800uS.  However I am not convinced they sound quite as good in live audio systems, but that's a subjective opinion of course.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cheater cheater [mailto:cheater00social at gmail.com]
> > Sent: 10 June 2022 23:12
> > To: Mike Bryant
> > Cc: Eric Brombaugh; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> >
> > So are you saying my bergkristall cable elevator pyramids are a fad?
> >
> > I understand the point of removing the out of band distortion at the DAC, but if I use, say, a 13.1 MHz signal to transfer an effective "16 bit depth" 50 kHz audio signal over that, why does the in-band get delayed when the out-of-band gets low pass filtered away?
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.
> > >
> > > Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf 
> > > Of cheater cheater via Synth-diy
> > > Sent: 10 June 2022 20:12
> > > To: Eric Brombaugh
> > > Cc: synth-diy
> > > Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> > >
> > > Thanks, Eric. I thought 1-bit streams were a generic output and DSD was a very specific format - or is DSD used for such signals at any frequency?
> > >
> > > Do you agree with Tom regarding the latency?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:36 PM Eric Brombaugh via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The search term you're looking for is DSD - direct stream digital.
> > > > There are ADC and DAC chips available for this format:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.ti.com/product/PCM4222
> > > >
> > > > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-she
> > > > et
> > > > s/
> > > > AD
> > > > 1955.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> > > >
> > > > On 6/10/22 06:40, cheater cheater via Synth-diy wrote:
> > > > > Tom,
> > > > > that's kinda what I want, but different.
> > > > > I'm looking for a high audio quality and good DC precision (12 
> > > > > bits usable or better) ADC that will output 1-bit bitstream 
> > > > > output. I would prefer it to "full width" output (eg 16 or 24
> > > > > bits) because I would prefer sub-1-sample delay - I'm 
> > > > > basically making a "digital audio snake" where the output of the ADC goes pretty much directly to a DAC.
> > > > > If the chip does 4, 8, or 16 channels, that's even better 
> > > > > (because it's hopefully cheaper and smaller and lower power).
> > > > >
> > > > > A comparator isn't great, you'd have to run your own sawtooth 
> > > > > oscillator, etc, kind of annoying, and definitely not good for 
> > > > > audio quality. Won't /somebody/ please think of the golden ears...
> > > > > But no, seriously, looking for good audio quality.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:04 PM Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It also depends a bit what you're going to do with the output. If you *actually want* a simple bitstream of the data, then the comparator is probably the way to go. There are some very retro eurorack delays done like this: 1-bit ADC, fed to pile of old RAM chips, out to an integrator. Example:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2631837
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Otherwise, if you want some more modern data format at the output (I2S or SPI or whatever) then who really cares how that is achieved? That'd be up to the ADC designers, and I'm happy to let them be the experts in that field!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> On 10 Jun 2022, at 13:48, Steve via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> they were being a bit mean to you ;)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I suppose no one advertises delta-sigma ADCs (which is I 
> > > > >>> guess what's talked about?) as having "1 bit", but by the 
> > > > >>> number of bits their data register has, and that won't be 1, 
> > > > >>> as the things are supposed to take the burden off of you, to 
> > > > >>> make something useful out of a signal sampled that way. You 
> > > > >>> typically wouldn't want to implement that in software, I'm 
> > > > >>> pretty sure. (from my superficial understanding of the topic.
> > > > >>> I've only ever used those things as black box)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> > > > >>>> I'm talking about actual ADCs meant for audio :)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>> Far better to use the LM361.  Runs orders of magnitude faster and both edges have same speed so much more accuracy driving the feedback loop.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] 
> > > > >>>>> On Behalf Of Neil Johnson via Synth-diy
> > > > >>>>> Sent: 10 June 2022 09:56
> > > > >>>>> To: cheater cheater
> > > > >>>>> Cc: synth-diy
> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> cheater cheater wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> I'm having a bit of trouble finding 1-bit ADCs. The kind 
> > > > >>>>>> that runs at something like 1.5 MHz-ish or higher to sample audio.
> > > > >>>>>> Mouser only starts listing ADCs at 4.5 bit depth and 
> > > > >>>>>> google isn't helpful. How do I find them? Can someone suggest any devices?
> > > > >>>>> LM311.  Classic 1-bit ADC.  Works up to ~3 MHz.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Neil
> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > >>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > >>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > >>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > >>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > >>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > >>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Synth-diy mailing list
> > > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> > >
> >
>




From metadata at gmx.com  Sat Jun 11 02:20:01 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:20:01 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7cb844e3-84e6-d90e-06df-d5080c250cf2@gmx.com>



On 6/8/22 23:40, Ben Bradley via Synth-diy wrote:
> Rereading the original, it seems reasonable to assume at least one
> component is different in SMT from thru hole. I'd start replacing SMT
> parts with thru hole and see what happens. I can't quite say why, but
> I'd start with Q5 and Q6, and if no change then Q1-Q2. From there I'd
> do the other active parts. After what you've already tried, this does
> not have an easily identifiable solution.

hey Ben
i had a chance today to swap out Q5/Q6 (schmitt trigger) transistors
with the 2N3904's I use in the TH version and unfortunately the results
are the same.



--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sat Jun 11 06:12:22 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 21:12:22 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <48e6692227b54d88912b34357cb65996@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e389c03ad7ca4775b40335a043dc159f@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-8mKpPdzk3PNKJpt7GOPYFEHiPGLup_E4HJ_KOrAGSPVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <191e32aa36ee474c8b0a967e44443d4c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--Ay+ue=gHRAp9rymDoMTx2Vdy3Yfy9yhGNubBFOi7UKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e6692227b54d88912b34357cb65996@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <DC692F36-948C-4362-9E14-22B253BDAACA@audiobanshee.com>

As Dan Lavry points out, no external clock can possibly exceed the quality of a properly-designed internal clock. The key is that the internal circuitry can introduce jitter if it's not properly designed, and in those situations a "studio quality clock" cannot possibly help because the clock still passes through the internal circuitry on the way to the DAC chip. There's not any sort of magic that exists to get around this requirement (no matter who makes the studio quality clock or how much it costs).

Thus, you really have to understand PCB design and layout to avoid grounding and other issues that might introduce jitter into the sample clock. I once talked to a TASCAM design engineer who pointed out that the company's digital audio product's quality improved dramatically once they understood the important of the clock circuits, including the layout of the traces that carry the clock signals.


There are other sources of noise besides clock jitter, though, and delta-sigma ADC has particular kinds of noise that aren't present in multi-bit ADC. All ADC needs a low-pass before the converter to prevent aliasing. A common technique in modern ADC is to oversample and then use a digital filter to implement the anti-aliasing filter. However, 1-bit delta-sigma doesn't have enough bits to properly implement the dither for the SRC in the digital filter, and thus distortion and idle tones are present. Although it is indeed possible to convert between DSD and PCM and vice versa, it's the original ADC process where the distortion is introduced.

The idle tones completely kill any hope of DC accuracy, and the distortion doesn't help much, either.

It's for this reason that the best implementations use at least five bits for the front end of delta-sigma ADC, and then implement the anti-aliasing filter in a way that can be properly dithered without distortion or idle tones. Once the ADC process is completed (including anti-aliasing), the digital samples can be output in DSD or PCM via appropriate conversion.


>From the description of the project, it seems like there is no reason to prefer 1-bit ADC. Where DC accuracy is important, a multi-bit ADC is necessary. 16-bit is certainly sufficient for CD quality audio.

If the interface out of the ADC and into the DAC needs to be serial, that does not mean that the ADC + DAC need to be 1-bit delta-sigma. There are plenty of I2S interfaces that handle multi-bit samples (zero-padded in the LSBs if less than 24-bit or even less than 16-bit).

Brian Willoughby


On Jun 10, 2022, at 4:32 PM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> You have to have the same clock everywhere no matter how it is distributed, otherwise you'll need flexible length buffers and possibly sample rate convertors.
> 
> The jitter noise I am thinking of is where the audio signal itself gets into the PLL inside the ADC or DAC, usually due to incorrect grounding.  That noise will differ on a channel by channel, and sample by sample basis, but is a common problem with digital audio systems.
> 
> But a studio quality clock is always a good investment.  I use one from Drawmer, but others are available.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater
> 
> All ADC/DAC pairs could/would be connected to the same homogenous clock source spread around the room via coax, and there would be no delay between the output of the ADC and the input to the DAC - think this alleviates some jitter worries? If you call the delay of clock pulses compared to the perfect clock at sample n d[n], my guess is that variance between d[n] and d[n+1] would be much lower than general variance between d[n] and d[n+k] for some k that's up to, say, 64.
> 
> I could just have a single clock for all those ADC/DAC pairs - which means I could blow out on a high precision clock - think that would help?
> 
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 1:15 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> If you are sampling at 500kHz, then the out of band noise extends from say 18kHz up to 250kHz.   Using a higher sampling rate does mean there is less noise from the additive jitter in the audio region as it is spread more thinly, but other sources of noise come into play at higher sampling rates, especially if you are using a lower number of bits, something the advocates of SACD tend to ignore.  For example a few nS of clock jitter due for example to poor crosstalk on a 48kHz sampling signal isn't too bad, but the same absolute jitter on a 2.3 MHz clock will affect the audio quality.
>> 
>> On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 12:28 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>> Well I googled " bergkristall cable elevator pyramids" and didn't 
>>> find anything :-)
>>> 
>>> The digitised audio signal contains the original signal plus various noise and distortion products, which hopefully if the correct jitter has been applied at the ADC are out of band.  But some will be only just out of band, and hence even if you are sampling at 96/192/384 kHz, you still need a fast cutoff filter.  This inherently has more group delay (not sample delay which can actually be as low as a single sample) than one with a slower cutoff.   The best ADC-DAC systems used to achieve about 2 to 3mS, but in recent years this seems to be down to as low as 800uS.  However I am not convinced they sound quite as good in live audio systems, but that's a subjective opinion of course.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>> You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.
>>>> 
>>>> Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jun 11 14:10:36 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 12:10:36 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs
In-Reply-To: <DC692F36-948C-4362-9E14-22B253BDAACA@audiobanshee.com>
References: <CAGn5V-8YC_TmJNe58Jdqiqj8gBmchJ_XDeBPFBTgSeyauirX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACZGMx+sMOZa3LJt-u1sH71HYpaOVxbQijo13PjOG2fx8Va1TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e993f96dd1c94d38823c7dc460c0c985@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-9EveP90Rr9iHiFp7JdQzAqsy7suE8VgiEf-H4xovwbxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9918e55-0905-e6b5-6d13-bed24703cb4d@gmx.de>
 <A9B5F97F-C9E8-4BD2-A479-234B53775D5C@electricdruid.net>
 <CAGn5V-8Cxf7wvU8EKRp8DebgD=duvbZ9RsAc2bHPPY-R1=xjbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <197e3177-1e75-63f2-7d62-23f8946010b8@gmail.com>
 <CAGn5V-9qWwxN9mPXJSrX7tkxXq0UcUJ6Lg3HchkBc=QEk=gBOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0c1a545d94da43d0a0564601456c3c8d@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-86SB2CGW+WXSBnyHby1fiJn-nNpL0Hb7--KJL+T7UnoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e389c03ad7ca4775b40335a043dc159f@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V-8mKpPdzk3PNKJpt7GOPYFEHiPGLup_E4HJ_KOrAGSPVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <191e32aa36ee474c8b0a967e44443d4c@futurehorizons.com>
 <CAGn5V--Ay+ue=gHRAp9rymDoMTx2Vdy3Yfy9yhGNubBFOi7UKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e6692227b54d88912b34357cb65996@futurehorizons.com>
 <DC692F36-948C-4362-9E14-22B253BDAACA@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <332a6e8eb3c54470ad7af3befc8dffc3@futurehorizons.com>

Sorry but whilst Dan has his opinions, they are not supported by many, notably his advocation of lower sampling rates.

In this case, the quality of an internal clock can never exceed the performance of an external clock.   With very careful design, it might approach it, but can never be better.  The reason is simple, the XIN pin on the crystal oscillator is the most critical node on any timing generator.  More specifically it is the resistor from the XIN pin to ground that performs the current to voltage conversion at this point.  Any noise on the ground end of that resistor will flow through the resistor and modulate the frequency of oscillation, causing jitter.   In an external clock generator there is no audio signal present that can possibly leak onto the ground.  Also the multiple outputs are usually transformer isolated from the drivers giving even more isolation.  Hence there is never any audio induced jitter in the 96kHz sync signal.  This will be PLL'ed up to a higher frequency for the ADCs and DACs, but it is only the 96kHz sync signal that matters for audio performance.  The only way to match this with an internal clock is to provide an isolated supply and ground to the clock generator, and then transformer or optically couple this to the DAC, which is in effect an external generator just in the same box.

In any system you cannot have more than one clock generator, otherwise they will never be in sync and you will need sample rate convertors which generate huge amounts of jitter.  But if you allow following devices to regenerate their clocks from the AES, SPDIF or Ethernet inputs, then use this output to create the clock on the following device, the jitter will accumulate across each device and by the end of the studio or live audio chain, the resulting audio will be truly horrible.  Hence the use of an external clock generator driving every digital device in parallel is the correct, and indeed only, solution for any studio or large scale live audio installation.

But I totally agree with the TASCAM engineer.  Getting the signal and ground routing correct is paramount to any good design, and something most designers seem to get horribly wrong far too often.

Regarding the use of delta-sigma versus multi-bit, you seem to be confusing a full multi-bit convertor, which I don't think anybody actually even makes nowadays, with the multi-bit delta-sigmas currently used in '32 bit(sic)' ADCs.  Whilst the three to five bits used will give better performance than a single bitter, the types of noise aren't eliminated, just reduced by 3dB (not 6dB) per extra bit.  In any case, full 16 bit convertors not using delta-sigma such as the PCM5x devices from the 1980s sound horrible, and I am sure the OP wants better quality than that even if he is also after a DC capability.




-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of brianw
Sent: 11 June 2022 05:12
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Can't find 1-bit ADCs

As Dan Lavry points out, no external clock can possibly exceed the quality of a properly-designed internal clock. The key is that the internal circuitry can introduce jitter if it's not properly designed, and in those situations a "studio quality clock" cannot possibly help because the clock still passes through the internal circuitry on the way to the DAC chip. There's not any sort of magic that exists to get around this requirement (no matter who makes the studio quality clock or how much it costs).

Thus, you really have to understand PCB design and layout to avoid grounding and other issues that might introduce jitter into the sample clock. I once talked to a TASCAM design engineer who pointed out that the company's digital audio product's quality improved dramatically once they understood the important of the clock circuits, including the layout of the traces that carry the clock signals.


There are other sources of noise besides clock jitter, though, and delta-sigma ADC has particular kinds of noise that aren't present in multi-bit ADC. All ADC needs a low-pass before the converter to prevent aliasing. A common technique in modern ADC is to oversample and then use a digital filter to implement the anti-aliasing filter. However, 1-bit delta-sigma doesn't have enough bits to properly implement the dither for the SRC in the digital filter, and thus distortion and idle tones are present. Although it is indeed possible to convert between DSD and PCM and vice versa, it's the original ADC process where the distortion is introduced.

The idle tones completely kill any hope of DC accuracy, and the distortion doesn't help much, either.

It's for this reason that the best implementations use at least five bits for the front end of delta-sigma ADC, and then implement the anti-aliasing filter in a way that can be properly dithered without distortion or idle tones. Once the ADC process is completed (including anti-aliasing), the digital samples can be output in DSD or PCM via appropriate conversion.


>From the description of the project, it seems like there is no reason to prefer 1-bit ADC. Where DC accuracy is important, a multi-bit ADC is necessary. 16-bit is certainly sufficient for CD quality audio.

If the interface out of the ADC and into the DAC needs to be serial, that does not mean that the ADC + DAC need to be 1-bit delta-sigma. There are plenty of I2S interfaces that handle multi-bit samples (zero-padded in the LSBs if less than 24-bit or even less than 16-bit).

Brian Willoughby


On Jun 10, 2022, at 4:32 PM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> You have to have the same clock everywhere no matter how it is distributed, otherwise you'll need flexible length buffers and possibly sample rate convertors.
> 
> The jitter noise I am thinking of is where the audio signal itself gets into the PLL inside the ADC or DAC, usually due to incorrect grounding.  That noise will differ on a channel by channel, and sample by sample basis, but is a common problem with digital audio systems.
> 
> But a studio quality clock is always a good investment.  I use one from Drawmer, but others are available.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheater cheater
> 
> All ADC/DAC pairs could/would be connected to the same homogenous clock source spread around the room via coax, and there would be no delay between the output of the ADC and the input to the DAC - think this alleviates some jitter worries? If you call the delay of clock pulses compared to the perfect clock at sample n d[n], my guess is that variance between d[n] and d[n+1] would be much lower than general variance between d[n] and d[n+k] for some k that's up to, say, 64.
> 
> I could just have a single clock for all those ADC/DAC pairs - which means I could blow out on a high precision clock - think that would help?
> 
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 1:15 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> If you are sampling at 500kHz, then the out of band noise extends from say 18kHz up to 250kHz.   Using a higher sampling rate does mean there is less noise from the additive jitter in the audio region as it is spread more thinly, but other sources of noise come into play at higher sampling rates, especially if you are using a lower number of bits, something the advocates of SACD tend to ignore.  For example a few nS of clock jitter due for example to poor crosstalk on a 48kHz sampling signal isn't too bad, but the same absolute jitter on a 2.3 MHz clock will affect the audio quality.
>> 
>> On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 12:28 AM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>> Well I googled " bergkristall cable elevator pyramids" and didn't 
>>> find anything :-)
>>> 
>>> The digitised audio signal contains the original signal plus various noise and distortion products, which hopefully if the correct jitter has been applied at the ADC are out of band.  But some will be only just out of band, and hence even if you are sampling at 96/192/384 kHz, you still need a fast cutoff filter.  This inherently has more group delay (not sample delay which can actually be as low as a single sample) than one with a slower cutoff.   The best ADC-DAC systems used to achieve about 2 to 3mS, but in recent years this seems to be down to as low as 800uS.  However I am not convinced they sound quite as good in live audio systems, but that's a subjective opinion of course.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:02 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>> You can use DSD at any frequency if it's a self contained system.  Bare in mind that you will still need to move the quantisation noise and distortion products out of band at the D-A conversion at which you will have to introduce some delay.
>>>> 
>>>> Also you need error correction on the transmission medium because DSD does propagate errors, whereas with PCM they just affect one sample.  Of course if it's the MSB of a PCM sample that error will sound like a click, but with DSD the error effect fades away over a much longer time.   But with a perfect transmission medium, there is in truth no real performance difference between the methods for the same bit rate, despite all the numerous webpages written on the subject.


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From shawnrakestraw at gmail.com  Sun Jun 12 19:41:56 2022
From: shawnrakestraw at gmail.com (Shawn Rakestraw)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 13:41:56 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
Message-ID: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>

Hey All,

I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost
exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific
resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at
octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of
them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.

The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy about
25 of them.

If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where
they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.

Thanks,

Shawn
-------------- next part --------------
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sun Jun 12 19:47:45 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 17:47:45 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] FW:  Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>



Is the supplier on Alibaba/AliExpress/Amazon ?   If so no risk as they have full protection if it?s either faulty, fraudulent or doesn?t arrive.

But I wouldn?t trust the ones on eBay, etc only.

LCSC is also trustworthy as a Chinese distributor


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy
Sent: 12 June 2022 18:42
To: SYNTH DIY
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites

Hey All,

I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.

The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy about 25 of them.

If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.

Thanks,

Shawn
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From vladoman at gmail.com  Sun Jun 12 19:53:08 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 19:53:08 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] FW: Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <bc44e7e7-5b5d-fcb5-d42a-038a0a8745c8@gmail.com>

FWIW I bought from Win-Source several times and so far the ICs all look genuine 
and work (STM32...)


On 6/12/22 7:47 PM, Mike Bryant wrote:
> Is the supplier on Alibaba/AliExpress/Amazon ??? If so no risk as they have full 
> protection if it?s either faulty, fraudulent or doesn?t arrive.
> 
> But I wouldn?t trust the ones on eBay, etc only.
> 
> LCSC is also trustworthy as a Chinese distributor
> 
> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *Shawn 
> Rakestraw via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* 12 June 2022 18:42
> *To:* SYNTH DIY
> *Subject:* [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
> 
> Hey All,
> 
> I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost exclusively use 
> Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific resistor network that is 
> out of stock everywhere, but when I look at octopart, there are "unauthorized 
> dealers" that seem to have a supply of them. I am a little nervous about buying 
> from them though.
> 
> The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy about 25 
> of them.
> 
> If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where they 
> would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Shawn
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 



From declareupdate at gmail.com  Sun Jun 12 19:56:31 2022
From: declareupdate at gmail.com (Chris McDowell)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 12:56:31 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <bc44e7e7-5b5d-fcb5-d42a-038a0a8745c8@gmail.com>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>
 <bc44e7e7-5b5d-fcb5-d42a-038a0a8745c8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EDBAAFE7-D796-4926-9A69-D7E20D03F4B0@gmail.com>

can second that win-source and LCSC have always been reliable for me. 

> On Jun 12, 2022, at 12:53 PM, Vladimir Pantelic via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> FWIW I bought from Win-Source several times and so far the ICs all look genuine and work (STM32...)
> 
> 
> On 6/12/22 7:47 PM, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> Is the supplier on Alibaba/AliExpress/Amazon ?   If so no risk as they have full protection if it?s either faulty, fraudulent or doesn?t arrive.
>> But I wouldn?t trust the ones on eBay, etc only.
>> LCSC is also trustworthy as a Chinese distributor
>> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy
>> *Sent:* 12 June 2022 18:42
>> *To:* SYNTH DIY
>> *Subject:* [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
>> Hey All,
>> I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.
>> The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy about 25 of them.
>> If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.
>> Thanks,
>> Shawn
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From shawn at epicpoolsga.com  Sun Jun 12 23:18:22 2022
From: shawn at epicpoolsga.com (Shawn Rakestraw)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 17:18:22 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <EDBAAFE7-D796-4926-9A69-D7E20D03F4B0@gmail.com>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>
 <bc44e7e7-5b5d-fcb5-d42a-038a0a8745c8@gmail.com>
 <EDBAAFE7-D796-4926-9A69-D7E20D03F4B0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+-UNiBHM_4EB+rJ9TnFv968L2TQdH1php2Ni4s7yrVdeOVAeA@mail.gmail.com>

I should have been more specific. I was specifically looking at a Canadian
supplier called Component Electronics, which OctoPart linked to.
www.componentonline.com

I checked LCSC, AliExpress, and win-source just now and none have stock.

Thanks for the suggestions though.

On Sun, Jun 12, 2022 at 1:58 PM Chris McDowell via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> can second that win-source and LCSC have always been reliable for me.
>
> > On Jun 12, 2022, at 12:53 PM, Vladimir Pantelic via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > FWIW I bought from Win-Source several times and so far the ICs all look
> genuine and work (STM32...)
> >
> >
> > On 6/12/22 7:47 PM, Mike Bryant wrote:
> >> Is the supplier on Alibaba/AliExpress/Amazon ?   If so no risk as they
> have full protection if it?s either faulty, fraudulent or doesn?t arrive.
> >> But I wouldn?t trust the ones on eBay, etc only.
> >> LCSC is also trustworthy as a Chinese distributor
> >> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy
> >> *Sent:* 12 June 2022 18:42
> >> *To:* SYNTH DIY
> >> *Subject:* [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
> >> Hey All,
> >> I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost
> exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific
> resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at
> octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of
> them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.
> >> The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy
> about 25 of them.
> >> If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know
> where they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.
> >> Thanks,
> >> Shawn
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>


-- 
Shawn Rakestraw
678-232-7192
shawn at epicpoolsga.com
epicpoolsga.com
<http://epicpoolsga.com/>
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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 13 00:05:19 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 23:05:19 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] AES Talk: Dave Rossum on the SP-1200 Re-Issue
Message-ID: <CACZGMxL4p-wDhccwBM6bRPBqYHTRSq_0hrmLqPeNHmB8Jo946w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

This is coming up next week, thought it might interest some folks here:

http://www.aes-uk.org/events/the-sp-1200-drum-machines-user-sampling-and-the-birth-of-a-genre-with-dave-rossum/

Cheers
Neil


From vuucuuv at comcast.net  Mon Jun 13 04:06:04 2022
From: vuucuuv at comcast.net (vuuc uuv)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 19:06:04 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] FW: Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <bd9f727c-7d74-5c45-2674-e13176dae2a1@comcast.net>

On 6/12/22 10:47 AM, Mike Bryant wrote:
>
> Is the supplier on Alibaba/AliExpress/Amazon ??? If so no risk as they 
> have full protection if it?s either faulty, fraudulent or doesn?t arrive.
>
> But I wouldn?t trust the ones on eBay, etc only.
>
eBay is great if you have an issue with fake or faulty chips, 
Aliexpress, has changed they were ok, no longer are.

ebay and amazon, the consumer is protected--perhaps at times at the 
expense of the seller.
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From btremblay at me.com  Mon Jun 13 05:19:51 2022
From: btremblay at me.com (Benjamin Tremblay)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 23:19:51 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <bd9f727c-7d74-5c45-2674-e13176dae2a1@comcast.net>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>
 <bd9f727c-7d74-5c45-2674-e13176dae2a1@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A19A1F50-B1EE-49E7-B55B-64572709FD46@me.com>

???

Octopart takes me to websites that want me to make an inquiry and get ?a quote?, and set up ?terms?. 
I know it?s better to buy wholesale, but I?m not buying 10000 of anything.
I picture these companies being a dusty front office of a rundown warehouse near a dock somewhere.
Someone waits for a fax machine while heating spam on a hotplate and making Lipton tea.

Benjamin Tremblay
btremblay at me.com
330 Fiske Street
Carlisle, MA 01741
978-831-8315








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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Mon Jun 13 06:31:14 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 21:31:14 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <A19A1F50-B1EE-49E7-B55B-64572709FD46@me.com>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20f298d98cd347449b10e2683298a385@futurehorizons.com>
 <bd9f727c-7d74-5c45-2674-e13176dae2a1@comcast.net>
 <A19A1F50-B1EE-49E7-B55B-64572709FD46@me.com>
Message-ID: <4B0BADF6-50DE-4988-9AF6-1D91A49839C3@audiobanshee.com>

Yes, there are distributors who want to set up accounts, get tax records (if you're tax-exempt), and take quantity orders. I've done it in the past, but it seemed like the only advantage was being able to buy without paying sales taxes in order to build a product for sale (where the consumer would pay the taxes).

It's probably not worth filling out the paperwork if you have other options, but there's also really no downside unless you're worried about privacy.

All of my account like this have expired decades ago, but it wasn't really that difficult to set things up, and you can often get wholesale prices.


Another option is to buy directly from the manufacturer, or even just get samples. Once upon a time, I designed DMX512 interface with a unique chip from Maxim. Nobody carried it (Mouser does now, but I was ahead of the curve). Even Octopart couldn't find anyone with the chip. I ended up getting a dozen from Maxim, and in this case they were all free. I filled out the forms and answered all the questions honestly, so I don't feel bad. They were used for prototypes, so I never charged a customer for free parts. Usually, samples have some cost, so don't expect them to be free.


I think it all comes down to risk and time. If you buy from an unknown, there's the risk that it's not genuine. Then, if you get bad parts, there's the time it takes to test, detect, and then replace the bad parts with good ones. If nobody but you is waiting for the final product, then you can afford to take a lot of risk and wait a long time to finally get it right.

Brian Willoughby


On Jun 12, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Benjamin Tremblay wrote:
> 
> ???
> 
> Octopart takes me to websites that want me to make an inquiry and get ?a quote?, and set up ?terms?. 
> I know it?s better to buy wholesale, but I?m not buying 10000 of anything.
> I picture these companies being a dusty front office of a rundown warehouse near a dock somewhere.
> Someone waits for a fax machine while heating spam on a hotplate and making Lipton tea.




From Peter.Ullrich at kapsch.net  Mon Jun 13 09:04:13 2022
From: Peter.Ullrich at kapsch.net (Ullrich Peter)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 07:04:13 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
Message-ID: <AM0PR03MB4306DEC1E5545C597B5AC9DC94AB9@AM0PR03MB4306.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Hi!

What are the resistors in the array used for?
If they are "only" pullup resistors then you can maybe use other values...  33k and 47k are available at mouser:
https://www.mouser.at/c/passive-components/resistors/resistor-networks-arrays/?package%20%2F%20case=1608&resistor%20values=4.7%20kOhms~~47%20kOhms&instock=y&rp=passive-components%2Fresistors%2Fresistor-networks-arrays%7C~Resistor%20Values

Ciao
Peter

http://www.ullrich.at.tt
http://rc100-usb.at.tt/   (Roland sampler tool)
http://synpro.heimat.eu/datadial.htm (Synth addon)



Von: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> Im Auftrag von Shawn Rakestraw
Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. Juni 2022 23:18
An: Chris McDowell <declareupdate at gmail.com>
Cc: Synth-Diy mailing list <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Betreff: *EXT* Re: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites

I should have been more specific. I was specifically looking at a Canadian supplier called Component Electronics, which OctoPart linked to. www.componentonline.com<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.componentonline.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7C64ebd4721961404e0e9208da4cb9a044%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637906657406373127%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vS3xtxg9bwJxyF2Hyo3tWXLb7UgbuYteZJBD2ngVRh4%3D&reserved=0>

I checked LCSC, AliExpress, and win-source just now and none have stock.

Thanks for the suggestions though.

On Sun, Jun 12, 2022 at 1:58 PM Chris McDowell via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
can second that win-source and LCSC have always been reliable for me.

> On Jun 12, 2022, at 12:53 PM, Vladimir Pantelic via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>
> FWIW I bought from Win-Source several times and so far the ICs all look genuine and work (STM32...)
>
>
> On 6/12/22 7:47 PM, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> Is the supplier on Alibaba/AliExpress/Amazon ?   If so no risk as they have full protection if it's either faulty, fraudulent or doesn't arrive.
>> But I wouldn't trust the ones on eBay, etc only.
>> LCSC is also trustworthy as a Chinese distributor
>> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] *On Behalf Of *Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy
>> *Sent:* 12 June 2022 18:42
>> *To:* SYNTH DIY
>> *Subject:* [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
>> Hey All,
>> I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.
>> The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy about 25 of them.
>> If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.
>> Thanks,
>> Shawn
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsynth-diy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsynth-diy&data=05%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7C64ebd4721961404e0e9208da4cb9a044%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637906657406373127%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dj7rtDi6Y3JSY8k0KONReZqD%2B0s25iOtDMcSBI7Acb8%3D&reserved=0>
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsynth-diy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsynth-diy&data=05%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7C64ebd4721961404e0e9208da4cb9a044%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637906657406373127%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dj7rtDi6Y3JSY8k0KONReZqD%2B0s25iOtDMcSBI7Acb8%3D&reserved=0>
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsynth-diy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsynth-diy&data=05%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7C64ebd4721961404e0e9208da4cb9a044%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637906657406373127%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dj7rtDi6Y3JSY8k0KONReZqD%2B0s25iOtDMcSBI7Acb8%3D&reserved=0>
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>


--
Shawn Rakestraw
678-232-7192
shawn at epicpoolsga.com<mailto:shawn at epicpoolsga.com>
epicpoolsga.com<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fepicpoolsga.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7CPeter.Ullrich%40kapsch.net%7C64ebd4721961404e0e9208da4cb9a044%7C5f9ce5277e3e4e83a8a4b6c848f85ab5%7C1%7C0%7C637906657406373127%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AyMiGTgAtYly66BgOLRpj%2FjlvSmeQPGKcOnjC1SnxLk%3D&reserved=0>
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From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jun 13 13:26:40 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 13:26:40 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9db4546a-16a3-64b6-e66f-a6d3e78192fd@go2.pl>

If it's only for pull-ups, I'd use 6.8k part, which is in stock at mouser.

Roman

W dniu 2022-06-12 o?19:41, Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy pisze:
> Hey All,
> 
> I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost 
> exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific 
> resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at 
> octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of 
> them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.
> 
> The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy 
> about 25 of them.
> 
> If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where 
> they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Shawn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From shawnrakestraw at gmail.com  Tue Jun 14 01:54:52 2022
From: shawnrakestraw at gmail.com (Shawn Rakestraw)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 19:54:52 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <9db4546a-16a3-64b6-e66f-a6d3e78192fd@go2.pl>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9db4546a-16a3-64b6-e66f-a6d3e78192fd@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <CA+-UNiBmmar5-Uu7w8hW4x9PyC4j-3EN8GOfvaR9DR4hp=64Gg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks everyone. Yes Roman, it looks like they are just for pullups. The
project is for a DATA card for a Roland JV-1080 and other synths from
around the time it was made. It looks like pins 1 and 6 get 5V and the
other side of the 8 resistors connects to the data lines between the card
connectors and the memory chips.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 7:26 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:

> If it's only for pull-ups, I'd use 6.8k part, which is in stock at mouser.
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-06-12 o 19:41, Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy pisze:
> > Hey All,
> >
> > I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost
> > exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific
> > resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at
> > octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of
> > them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.
> >
> > The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy
> > about 25 of them.
> >
> > If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where
> > they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
>
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From john at sleefamily.org  Wed Jun 15 14:02:06 2022
From: john at sleefamily.org (jslee)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 22:02:06 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <CA+-UNiBmmar5-Uu7w8hW4x9PyC4j-3EN8GOfvaR9DR4hp=64Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9db4546a-16a3-64b6-e66f-a6d3e78192fd@go2.pl>
 <CA+-UNiBmmar5-Uu7w8hW4x9PyC4j-3EN8GOfvaR9DR4hp=64Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bb4d4d79-a1e5-49a6-bdd7-8d4f6826750d@beta.fastmail.com>

Alternatively if 6.8k as suggested by Roman doesn?t work out, you could do something similar to the resistor networks for one of the Din Sync recreations (re-909 maybe?): design a tiny PCB with SMD resistors on it, and attach pin headers of the appropriate pitch

John


On Tue, 14 Jun 2022, at 09:54, Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy wrote:
> Thanks everyone. Yes Roman, it looks like they are just for pullups. The project is for a DATA card for a Roland JV-1080 and other synths from around the time it was made. It looks like pins 1 and 6 get 5V and the other side of the 8 resistors connects to the data lines between the card connectors and the memory chips.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 7:26 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>> If it's only for pull-ups, I'd use 6.8k part, which is in stock at mouser.
>> 
>> Roman
>> 
>> W dniu 2022-06-12 o 19:41, Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy pisze:
>> > Hey All,
>> > 
>> > I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost 
>> > exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific 
>> > resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at 
>> > octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of 
>> > them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.
>> > 
>> > The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy 
>> > about 25 of them.
>> > 
>> > If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where 
>> > they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.
>> > 
>> > Thanks,
>> > 
>> > Shawn
>> > 
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> > 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
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From shawnrakestraw at gmail.com  Wed Jun 15 14:24:05 2022
From: shawnrakestraw at gmail.com (Shawn Rakestraw)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 08:24:05 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Buying Parts from Questionable Sites
In-Reply-To: <bb4d4d79-a1e5-49a6-bdd7-8d4f6826750d@beta.fastmail.com>
References: <CA+-UNiCQiYP8z+9XyYCdUftG+f7Sp1L2-jarBD1Z7rHWHwk7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9db4546a-16a3-64b6-e66f-a6d3e78192fd@go2.pl>
 <CA+-UNiBmmar5-Uu7w8hW4x9PyC4j-3EN8GOfvaR9DR4hp=64Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bb4d4d79-a1e5-49a6-bdd7-8d4f6826750d@beta.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+-UNiDQ9kDxLEHOY2QC7RQgOqsTto8VK-Wet6LwUNJeF4SLBg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. This community is such a valuable
resource. I decided to try ordering from the componentonline.com website
that I mentioned a few days ago. They seem to have shipped out the order
and it will be here on Friday. Hopefully the worst part about ordering from
them is just paying a higher price. The project is for a memory card to
insert into a slot and there is a maximum height that must not be exceeded.
I thought about trying something like you suggest jslee, but I want it to
be thin and as clean as possible.

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 8:07 AM jslee via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
wrote:

> Alternatively if 6.8k as suggested by Roman doesn?t work out, you could do
> something similar to the resistor networks for one of the Din Sync
> recreations (re-909 maybe?): design a tiny PCB with SMD resistors on it,
> and attach pin headers of the appropriate pitch
>
> John
>
>
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022, at 09:54, Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone. Yes Roman, it looks like they are just for pullups. The
> project is for a DATA card for a Roland JV-1080 and other synths from
> around the time it was made. It looks like pins 1 and 6 get 5V and the
> other side of the 8 resistors connects to the data lines between the card
> connectors and the memory chips.
>
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 7:26 AM Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>
> If it's only for pull-ups, I'd use 6.8k part, which is in stock at mouser.
>
> Roman
>
> W dniu 2022-06-12 o 19:41, Shawn Rakestraw via Synth-diy pisze:
> > Hey All,
> >
> > I have a diy project I would like to do and in the past I almost
> > exclusively use Mouser for most of my components. There is a specific
> > resistor network that is out of stock everywhere, but when I look at
> > octopart, there are "unauthorized dealers" that seem to have a supply of
> > them. I am a little nervous about buying from them though.
> >
> > The component in question is EXB-E10C103J and I would likely only buy
> > about 25 of them.
> >
> > If anyone with more experience buying components could let me know where
> > they would trust getting them from, I would be very appreciative.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Wed Jun 15 15:48:31 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 09:48:31 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <7cb844e3-84e6-d90e-06df-d5080c250cf2@gmx.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7cb844e3-84e6-d90e-06df-d5080c250cf2@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UD37B+wEzp1jaZccZ9Kfsjp6DxbvLyYubrG37RZTu3ANA@mail.gmail.com>

Just a wild shot - did you check for oscillation on the line that supplies
bias for high frequency compensation?

MC

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 8:24 PM Neil Harper via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 6/8/22 23:40, Ben Bradley via Synth-diy wrote:
> > Rereading the original, it seems reasonable to assume at least one
> > component is different in SMT from thru hole. I'd start replacing SMT
> > parts with thru hole and see what happens. I can't quite say why, but
> > I'd start with Q5 and Q6, and if no change then Q1-Q2. From there I'd
> > do the other active parts. After what you've already tried, this does
> > not have an easily identifiable solution.
>
> hey Ben
> i had a chance today to swap out Q5/Q6 (schmitt trigger) transistors
> with the 2N3904's I use in the TH version and unfortunately the results
> are the same.
>
>
>
> --
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Wed Jun 15 23:49:04 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 14:49:04 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D5016F7-D755-4E30-8045-62D5C6223101@audiobanshee.com>

Are polyester caps available in SMD?

Sorry for being lazy, but I recall searching for them in the past and finding none. I had to change to through-hole. However, I may have been looking for very specific poly formulations, not the broader category.

I know that C0G/NP0 have very good specifications, but I don't know the details of whether they're poly formulations or some other magical material.

Brian


On May 19, 2022, at 12:57 PM, Sarah Thompson via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> Chip ceramic capacitors can show changes in capacitance with bias voltage. If stable capacitance is necessary, then specifying something fundamentally more stable like a polyester might be sensible, albeit at the cost of board area.
> 
> On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 2:01 PM Richie Burnett <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
> > One issue when looking at HF oscillations is sometimes the scope probe
> adds enough capacitance or resistance to stop the oscillation...
> 
> Then the "oscillator going SHARP" condition might go away when the probe is 
> connected!?
> 
> Neil Harper, I guess the VCO does eventually go flat again at some point 
> higher than a C8 pitch?  The pitch errors you mentioned in cents aren't 
> huge.  Does it get worse and worse above the C8 or does it get better again?




From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 01:17:04 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 23:17:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>

I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).? I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
Here are a few questions I have:
1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?
2) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jun 16 01:27:43 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 23:27:43 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>

I?ve never used that device, but on your last point it does have a lot of capacitive load so may be best to use a buffer to isolate the PIC from the load, in which case use a dual buffer anyway.



From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
Sent: 16 June 2022 00:17
To: Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency

I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?

Here are a few questions I have:

1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?

2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?

3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?

2) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
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From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 01:34:35 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 23:34:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>

 
Oops, I see I mis-numbered my questions. Here is the message with questions properly numbered?:
I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).? I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
Here are a few questions I have:
1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?
4) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
    On Wednesday, June 15, 2022, 06:27:51 PM CDT, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:  
 
 <!--#yiv3738283934 _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv3738283934 #yiv3738283934 p.yiv3738283934MsoNormal, #yiv3738283934 li.yiv3738283934MsoNormal, #yiv3738283934 div.yiv3738283934MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", "serif";}#yiv3738283934 a:link, #yiv3738283934 span.yiv3738283934MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3738283934 a:visited, #yiv3738283934 span.yiv3738283934MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3738283934 span.yiv3738283934EmailStyle17 {font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}#yiv3738283934 .yiv3738283934MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv3738283934 div.yiv3738283934WordSection1 {}-->
I?ve never used that device, but on your last point it does have a lot of capacitive load so may be best to use a buffer to isolate the PIC from the load, in which case use a dual buffer anyway.
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org]On Behalf Of Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
Sent: 16 June 2022 00:17
To: Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
 
 ?
 
I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).? I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
 
 ?
 
Here are a few questions I have:
 
 ?
 
1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
 
 ?
 
2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
 
 ?
 
3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?
 
 ?
 
2) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
   
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From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun 16 02:31:32 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 20:31:32 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UD37B+wEzp1jaZccZ9Kfsjp6DxbvLyYubrG37RZTu3ANA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7cb844e3-84e6-d90e-06df-d5080c250cf2@gmx.com>
 <CAAv6=UD37B+wEzp1jaZccZ9Kfsjp6DxbvLyYubrG37RZTu3ANA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ea1decd3-651c-ec95-d683-9ccaa5ddc087@gmx.com>



On 6/15/22 09:48, Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy wrote:
> Just a wild shot - did you check for oscillation on the line that
> supplies bias for high frequency compensation?
>

I scoped the output of IC2b and didn't see any oscillation, I also
completely disconnected the HF compensation (removing D1) and didn't see
any change in the problem.

I also replaced the reference voltage source (the -15V going through R43
(1.5M) with a -5V reference voltage going through a 470k resistor.
Scoping the -5V reference and I don't see any oscillation happening
there either.



--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jun 16 03:04:17 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 01:04:17 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <ea1decd3-651c-ec95-d683-9ccaa5ddc087@gmx.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7cb844e3-84e6-d90e-06df-d5080c250cf2@gmx.com>
 <CAAv6=UD37B+wEzp1jaZccZ9Kfsjp6DxbvLyYubrG37RZTu3ANA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ea1decd3-651c-ec95-d683-9ccaa5ddc087@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <d622ca89f3f54950bbcf6b0c0cfeee7c@futurehorizons.com>

I can't remember the original details or the circuit, but have you tried replacing whatever creates the exponential conversion ?    It may be the gain of it changes at higher input voltages more than any correction circuitry allows for.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Neil Harper via Synth-diy
Sent: 16 June 2022 01:32
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??



On 6/15/22 09:48, Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy wrote:
> Just a wild shot - did you check for oscillation on the line that 
> supplies bias for high frequency compensation?
>

I scoped the output of IC2b and didn't see any oscillation, I also completely disconnected the HF compensation (removing D1) and didn't see any change in the problem.

I also replaced the reference voltage source (the -15V going through R43
(1.5M) with a -5V reference voltage going through a 470k resistor.
Scoping the -5V reference and I don't see any oscillation happening there either.



--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From metadata at gmx.com  Thu Jun 16 03:37:51 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 21:37:51 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <d622ca89f3f54950bbcf6b0c0cfeee7c@futurehorizons.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7cb844e3-84e6-d90e-06df-d5080c250cf2@gmx.com>
 <CAAv6=UD37B+wEzp1jaZccZ9Kfsjp6DxbvLyYubrG37RZTu3ANA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ea1decd3-651c-ec95-d683-9ccaa5ddc087@gmx.com>
 <d622ca89f3f54950bbcf6b0c0cfeee7c@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <9d27caba-da1a-d1a2-daa9-3fa62561607e@gmx.com>



On 6/15/22 21:04, Mike Bryant wrote:
> I can't remember the original details or the circuit, but have you tried replacing whatever creates the exponential conversion ?    It may be the gain of it changes at higher input voltages more than any correction circuitry allows for.

hi Mike,
pretty much the last thing I haven't swapped out are the opamps,
LM137000 and the matched pair transistors. At this point I've just
accepted that there's a +10-20cent error at C8, because the transistor
pair SMT package I used is VERY small and I can't picture being able to
remove it and tack on some regular handmatched TH transistors to see if
that fixes the issue..




--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Thu Jun 16 07:23:36 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 01:23:36 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UCC7T41kbYtcAcFtEfLnz2T09Pu=uvKJiE-iwVmZYNC8w@mail.gmail.com>

Chaining BBD devices increases the noise.  I recommend using a compander in
your design.

MC

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 7:38 PM Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

>
> Oops, I see I mis-numbered my questions. Here is the message with
> questions properly numbered [image: Emoji]:
>
> I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205
> chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87
> (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205
> chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock
> noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
>
> Here are a few questions I have:
>
> 1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
>
> 2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
>
> 3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim
> into Chip#2?
>
> 4) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any
> sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
>
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022, 06:27:51 PM CDT, Mike Bryant <
> mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
> I?ve never used that device, but on your last point it does have a lot of
> capacitive load so may be best to use a buffer to isolate the PIC from the
> load, in which case use a dual buffer anyway.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *Didier
> Leplae via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* 16 June 2022 00:17
> *To:* Synth-diy Mailing List
> *Subject:* [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
>
>
>
> I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205
> chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87
> (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205
> chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock
> noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
>
>
>
> Here are a few questions I have:
>
>
>
> 1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
>
>
>
> 2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
>
>
>
> 3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim
> into Chip#2?
>
>
>
> 2) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any
> sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 07:27:54 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 00:27:54 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UCC7T41kbYtcAcFtEfLnz2T09Pu=uvKJiE-iwVmZYNC8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAv6=UCC7T41kbYtcAcFtEfLnz2T09Pu=uvKJiE-iwVmZYNC8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E28CA044-818C-4C22-B508-A9EA8D426707@yahoo.com>

Yes, we are using a compander as well. I forgot to mention that. I guess what you?re saying is that each chip introduces a certain amount of noise, so using two chips makes it worse. That?s interesting 

> On Jun 16, 2022, at 12:23 AM, Michael E Caloroso <mec.forumreader at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Chaining BBD devices increases the noise.  I recommend using a compander in your design.
> 
> MC
> 
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 7:38 PM Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Oops, I see I mis-numbered my questions. Here is the message with questions properly numbered :
>> 
>> I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
>> 
>> Here are a few questions I have:
>> 
>> 1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
>> 
>> 2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
>> 
>> 3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?
>> 
>> 4) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
>> 
>> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022, 06:27:51 PM CDT, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I?ve never used that device, but on your last point it does have a lot of capacitive load so may be best to use a buffer to isolate the PIC from the load, in which case use a dual buffer anyway.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 16 June 2022 00:17
>> To: Synth-diy Mailing List
>> Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Here are a few questions I have:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 2) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From diy at artefacts.nl  Thu Jun 16 08:48:01 2022
From: diy at artefacts.nl (Maarten Halmans)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 08:48:01 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <9d27caba-da1a-d1a2-daa9-3fa62561607e@gmx.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7cb844e3-84e6-d90e-06df-d5080c250cf2@gmx.com>
 <CAAv6=UD37B+wEzp1jaZccZ9Kfsjp6DxbvLyYubrG37RZTu3ANA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ea1decd3-651c-ec95-d683-9ccaa5ddc087@gmx.com>
 <d622ca89f3f54950bbcf6b0c0cfeee7c@futurehorizons.com>
 <9d27caba-da1a-d1a2-daa9-3fa62561607e@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <698f0e7f-7598-2a1c-cc4b-84cb521d528b@artefacts.nl>

Hello Neil,

Are you sure the problem is in the higher octaves, didn't you compensate 
for a problem on the low end resulting in the oscillator going sharp in 
the higher octaves? I had this twice with a Jupiter-8 oscillator, once 
it was caused by flux and the other time by a leaky FET.

Best,

Maarten

Op 16-6-2022 om 03:37 schreef Neil Harper via Synth-diy:
>
>
> On 6/15/22 21:04, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> I can't remember the original details or the circuit, but have you 
>> tried replacing whatever creates the exponential conversion ???? It 
>> may be the gain of it changes at higher input voltages more than any 
>> correction circuitry allows for.
>
> hi Mike,
> pretty much the last thing I haven't swapped out are the opamps,
> LM137000 and the matched pair transistors. At this point I've just
> accepted that there's a +10-20cent error at C8, because the transistor
> pair SMT package I used is VERY small and I can't picture being able to
> remove it and tack on some regular handmatched TH transistors to see if
> that fixes the issue..
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From igg.debus at gmail.com  Thu Jun 16 10:00:16 2022
From: igg.debus at gmail.com (Ingo Debus)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 10:00:16 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <5D5016F7-D755-4E30-8045-62D5C6223101@audiobanshee.com>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5D5016F7-D755-4E30-8045-62D5C6223101@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <6085EA87-60A3-4D40-85A2-1D1C405F0192@gmail.com>



> Am 15.06.2022 um 23:49 schrieb brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com>:
> 
> Are polyester caps available in SMD?

https://www.wima.de/en/our-product-range/smd-capacitors/smd-pet/ <https://www.wima.de/en/our-product-range/smd-capacitors/smd-pet/>

Ingo
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jun 16 12:13:42 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 10:13:42 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <E28CA044-818C-4C22-B508-A9EA8D426707@yahoo.com>
References: <CAAv6=UCC7T41kbYtcAcFtEfLnz2T09Pu=uvKJiE-iwVmZYNC8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E28CA044-818C-4C22-B508-A9EA8D426707@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ed930447e764517a9f21b93b9e552d9@futurehorizons.com>


Given the price of MN3205s, I suspect an A-D, processor for delay and then D-A would work out cheaper, give longer delays and give less noise.



From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
Sent: 16 June 2022 06:28
To: Michael E Caloroso
Cc: Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency

Yes, we are using a compander as well. I forgot to mention that. I guess what you?re saying is that each chip introduces a certain amount of noise, so using two chips makes it worse. That?s interesting


On Jun 16, 2022, at 12:23 AM, Michael E Caloroso <mec.forumreader at gmail.com<mailto:mec.forumreader at gmail.com>> wrote:
?
Chaining BBD devices increases the noise.  I recommend using a compander in your design.

MC

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 7:38 PM Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:

Oops, I see I mis-numbered my questions. Here is the message with questions properly numbered [Emoji] :

I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?

Here are a few questions I have:

1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?

2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?

3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?

4) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022, 06:27:51 PM CDT, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:



I?ve never used that device, but on your last point it does have a lot of capacitive load so may be best to use a buffer to isolate the PIC from the load, in which case use a dual buffer anyway.







From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
Sent: 16 June 2022 00:17
To: Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency



I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?



Here are a few questions I have:



1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?



2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?



3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?



2) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 16 14:16:57 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 13:16:57 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Didier Leplae wrote:
> I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?

All you achieve by running at a higher clock is moving the noise out
of the audio band.  It is still there, just less audible.  At 4096
stages you already have huge amounts of noise, and with limited
headroom your SNR is going to be pretty poor.

> 1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?

Not usually.

> 2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?

Yes.  The output stage of the first chip do not preserve the bias, and
anyway the bias of chip #2 is not guaranteed to the same as for #1.

> 3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?

That would be advisable.

> 4) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?

Definitely.  As Mike says that's a helluva lot of capacitance to
drive.  And you need the inverted clock as well so you might as well
do the inverting and buffering externally.  Especially with two chips,
that'll put almost 6nF on each clock line.

Neil



From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 00:02:27 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 17:02:27 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>

In an electro smash article about BBD?s, he mentions using dual BBD chips multiplexed to increase clock speed. He refers to the SAD1024 data sheet for more info. Unfortunately, I haven?t found a complete version of this yet, but I did find the first page in which they mention the same thing. 
Maybe I?m misunderstanding how this is done? Would they not be in series then.

Doubling the clock sped would bring my lowest clock speed to 20k. Then I could set LP filters to around 18k which would mostly filter out inaudible frequencies. 
The doubling of noise inherent to the chip is concerning though..





> On Jun 16, 2022, at 7:16 AM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Didier Leplae wrote:
>> I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
> 
> All you achieve by running at a higher clock is moving the noise out
> of the audio band.  It is still there, just less audible.  At 4096
> stages you already have huge amounts of noise, and with limited
> headroom your SNR is going to be pretty poor.
> 
>> 1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
> 
> Not usually.
> 
>> 2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
> 
> Yes.  The output stage of the first chip do not preserve the bias, and
> anyway the bias of chip #2 is not guaranteed to the same as for #1.
> 
>> 3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?
> 
> That would be advisable.
> 
>> 4) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
> 
> Definitely.  As Mike says that's a helluva lot of capacitance to
> drive.  And you need the inverted clock as well so you might as well
> do the inverting and buffering externally.  Especially with two chips,
> that'll put almost 6nF on each clock line.
> 
> Neil




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 17 00:11:51 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 22:11:51 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>


Note that it is not a doubling of noise as they are (mostly) uncorrelated so it should only be a 3dB-ish change.
You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.

If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
Sent: 16 June 2022 23:02
To: Neil Johnson
Cc: Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency

In an electro smash article about BBD?s, he mentions using dual BBD chips multiplexed to increase clock speed. He refers to the SAD1024 data sheet for more info. Unfortunately, I haven?t found a complete version of this yet, but I did find the first page in which they mention the same thing. 
Maybe I?m misunderstanding how this is done? Would they not be in series then.

Doubling the clock sped would bring my lowest clock speed to 20k. Then I could set LP filters to around 18k which would mostly filter out inaudible frequencies. 
The doubling of noise inherent to the chip is concerning though..





> On Jun 16, 2022, at 7:16 AM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Didier Leplae wrote:
>> I'm currently working on a bucket brigade delay module using the MN3205 chip. The circuit is based on the Jan Hall article in Electronotes 87 (except using MN3205).  I'm interested in trying to add a second MN3205 chip in series in order to double the clock frequency thus reducing clock noise issues. Has anyone had experience doing this?
> 
> All you achieve by running at a higher clock is moving the noise out 
> of the audio band.  It is still there, just less audible.  At 4096 
> stages you already have huge amounts of noise, and with limited 
> headroom your SNR is going to be pretty poor.
> 
>> 1) Do I need to put any sort of buffering between Chip#1 & Chip#2?
> 
> Not usually.
> 
>> 2) Do I need a biasing trim pot before each chip? Or just Chip#1?
> 
> Yes.  The output stage of the first chip do not preserve the bias, and 
> anyway the bias of chip #2 is not guaranteed to the same as for #1.
> 
>> 3) Do I need to connect both outputs of Chip#1 through a clock null trim into Chip#2?
> 
> That would be advisable.
> 
>> 4) I'm using a PIC chip to generate the clocks. Would I need to put any sort of buffering to isolate the clock inputs of the two chips?
> 
> Definitely.  As Mike says that's a helluva lot of capacitance to 
> drive.  And you need the inverted clock as well so you might as well 
> do the inverting and buffering externally.  Especially with two chips, 
> that'll put almost 6nF on each clock line.
> 
> Neil


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From tom at electricdruid.net  Fri Jun 17 01:38:56 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 00:38:56 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>



> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.

I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:

http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf

> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.

BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than 3.3KHz!!

I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.

Tom




From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Fri Jun 17 02:23:16 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 17:23:16 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <B2F30215-D499-4DFC-8CF4-5576A252E486@audiobanshee.com>

I was going to suggest that differential would improve S/N by 3 dB, since the signal would get a 6 dB boost and the two chips' noise would sum to +3 dB because they should be uncorrelated.

Then I realized that differential (inverting one copy) wouldn't really be any better than maintaining the same polarity in both, since the noise is not going to cancel anyway. Note that balanced audio is differential because the noise is typically induced in the cable almost equally on both signal wires, so inverting the -signal will cancel most of the noise. Not the case with BBD noise because there would be no correlation between the noise in the two chips.

So, basically, you can still get that 3 dB improvement in S/N whether you use differential or not. I'd look at the complexity of the circuit with either option, and choose the one with fewer parts. (e.g. maybe differential would make the summing amp easier?). I also wonder whether the clock nulling circuits could be mangled into handling differential signaling.


On Jun 16, 2022, at 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant wrote:
>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.
> 
> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:
> 
> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf

It seems strange that Archer shows the A' output as unused in the Serial configuration. They might not have aimed for high fidelity.

Similarly, the Parallel-multiplex operation shows both A' and B' outputs as unused.

The differential mixer seems to be entirely passive (at least ahead of the LM733).


>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.
> 
> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than 3.3KHz!!
> 
> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
> 
> Tom

Exactly. A circuit with ADC and DAC might incorporate a fancy digital filter with sharp 18k to 20k slope, but you're not building that with all analog components. The recommendation for 1/3 frequency allows fewer poles in the filter.

Brian




From jschwich53 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 17 03:01:44 2022
From: jschwich53 at comcast.net (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 18:01:44 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>

Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is 
the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?

So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher 
up and have better freq range.

Jay S.

On 6/16/2022 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>
>> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>
>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.
> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:
>
> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf
>
>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.
> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than 3.3KHz!!
>
> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
>
> Tom
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 05:20:50 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 22:20:50 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
References: <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8F1CA055-6967-4FAF-99CC-42FAAD60618D@yahoo.com>

The datasheet for the MN3205 suggests a clock frequency from 10k to 100k. Giving a 204.8ms - 20.48ms delay time. 
You could run at higher clock speeds, but you would just end up with shorter delay times. 

The reason I came up with 18k filtering for 20k clock is because the Jan Hall electronotes circuit uses 9k filters for 10k clock.

At any rate, a higher frequency clock is just easier to filter out. 

> On Jun 16, 2022, at 8:08 PM, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
> 
> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
> 
> Jay S.
> 
>> On 6/16/2022 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>> 
>>>> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.
>> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:
>> 
>> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf
>> 
>>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.
>> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than 3.3KHz!!
>> 
>> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
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From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 05:32:24 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 22:32:24 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <8F1CA055-6967-4FAF-99CC-42FAAD60618D@yahoo.com>
References: <8F1CA055-6967-4FAF-99CC-42FAAD60618D@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57EEFDC9-A8E5-4E6E-9F98-4A365E6DF9EA@yahoo.com>

I guess I should clarify, it?s not easier to filter out higher frequency clock.
Filtering required for a higher frequency clock will result in less degradation to the audio signal.

> On Jun 16, 2022, at 10:20 PM, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> ?The datasheet for the MN3205 suggests a clock frequency from 10k to 100k. Giving a 204.8ms - 20.48ms delay time. 
> You could run at higher clock speeds, but you would just end up with shorter delay times. 
> 
> The reason I came up with 18k filtering for 20k clock is because the Jan Hall electronotes circuit uses 9k filters for 10k clock.
> 
> At any rate, a higher frequency clock is just easier to filter out. 
> 
>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 8:08 PM, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
>> 
>> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
>> 
>> Jay S.
>> 
>>>> On 6/16/2022 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.
>>> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:
>>> 
>>> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf
>>> 
>>>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.
>>> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than 3.3KHz!!
>>> 
>>> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
>>> 
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 17 11:01:00 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 09:01:00 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b4a6f303ebf541a097787b9a2938e932@futurehorizons.com>

BBD is only about 12 bits accuracy at best, and there's plenty of cheap ADC/DACs that can run 12 bits at many megahertz.    Pair one of these with a cheap ARM processor with lots of memory.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
Sent: 17 June 2022 02:02
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency

Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?

So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.

Jay S.




From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jun 17 11:20:56 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 11:20:56 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <b4a6f303ebf541a097787b9a2938e932@futurehorizons.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <b4a6f303ebf541a097787b9a2938e932@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <56e175cb-f494-8522-96fd-93d05f7a66e6@go2.pl>

I may be wrong, but possibly prefering BBD over ADC-RAM-DAC is the same 
thing as tube audio amp vs. solid state one.
Price, performance, ease of use, unobtainable parts - it all does not 
matter then.

Roman


W dniu 2022-06-17 o?11:01, Mike Bryant pisze:
> BBD is only about 12 bits accuracy at best, and there's plenty of cheap ADC/DACs that can run 12 bits at many megahertz.    Pair one of these with a cheap ARM processor with lots of memory.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
> Sent: 17 June 2022 02:02
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
> 
> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
> 
> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
> 
> Jay S.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 17 11:23:58 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 09:23:58 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <56e175cb-f494-8522-96fd-93d05f7a66e6@go2.pl>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <b4a6f303ebf541a097787b9a2938e932@futurehorizons.com>
 <56e175cb-f494-8522-96fd-93d05f7a66e6@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <d9f97cfa987b409cb0bc77d1f804dbfb@futurehorizons.com>

Yes.   But 'advantages' and 'religious beliefs' are two very different things :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: Roman Sowa [mailto:modular at go2.pl] 
Sent: 17 June 2022 10:21
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency

I may be wrong, but possibly prefering BBD over ADC-RAM-DAC is the same thing as tube audio amp vs. solid state one.
Price, performance, ease of use, unobtainable parts - it all does not matter then.

Roman


W dniu 2022-06-17 o?11:01, Mike Bryant pisze:
> BBD is only about 12 bits accuracy at best, and there's plenty of cheap ADC/DACs that can run 12 bits at many megahertz.    Pair one of these with a cheap ARM processor with lots of memory.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
> Sent: 17 June 2022 02:02
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
> 
> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
> 
> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
> 
> Jay S.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 




From thebot at btinternet.com  Fri Jun 17 14:32:03 2022
From: thebot at btinternet.com (Scott Young)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 13:32:03 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <d9f97cfa987b409cb0bc77d1f804dbfb@futurehorizons.com>
References: <d9f97cfa987b409cb0bc77d1f804dbfb@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <DA14B772-0115-4E1A-9D73-51A6A6F74E5A@btinternet.com>

Not if you?re a guitarist :-)

> 
> On 17 Jun 2022, at 10:25, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Yes.   But 'advantages' and 'religious beliefs' are two very different things :-)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roman Sowa [mailto:modular at go2.pl] 
> Sent: 17 June 2022 10:21
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
> 
> I may be wrong, but possibly prefering BBD over ADC-RAM-DAC is the same thing as tube audio amp vs. solid state one.
> Price, performance, ease of use, unobtainable parts - it all does not matter then.
> 
> Roman
> 
> 
> W dniu 2022-06-17 o 11:01, Mike Bryant pisze:
>> BBD is only about 12 bits accuracy at best, and there's plenty of cheap ADC/DACs that can run 12 bits at many megahertz.    Pair one of these with a cheap ARM processor with lots of memory.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 17 June 2022 02:02
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
>> 
>> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
>> 
>> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
>> 
>> Jay S.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Fri Jun 17 14:36:51 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 12:36:51 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <DA14B772-0115-4E1A-9D73-51A6A6F74E5A@btinternet.com>
References: <d9f97cfa987b409cb0bc77d1f804dbfb@futurehorizons.com>
 <DA14B772-0115-4E1A-9D73-51A6A6F74E5A@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <a60e4bb2c89e4cb8a70fa847d23483b1@futurehorizons.com>

Guitarist are the last bastion of religious fundamentalism !

But more and more do use DSP modelling now, especially for live concerts.  There's nothing wrong with wanting a valve sound, but just accept its nothing magical, just a mathematical formula that just as easily can be applied digitally.


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Young [mailto:thebot at btinternet.com] 
Sent: 17 June 2022 13:32
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Roman Sowa; synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency

Not if you?re a guitarist :-)

> 
> On 17 Jun 2022, at 10:25, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Yes.   But 'advantages' and 'religious beliefs' are two very different things :-)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roman Sowa [mailto:modular at go2.pl]
> Sent: 17 June 2022 10:21
> To: Mike Bryant
> Cc: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
> 
> I may be wrong, but possibly prefering BBD over ADC-RAM-DAC is the same thing as tube audio amp vs. solid state one.
> Price, performance, ease of use, unobtainable parts - it all does not matter then.
> 
> Roman
> 
> 
> W dniu 2022-06-17 o 11:01, Mike Bryant pisze:
>> BBD is only about 12 bits accuracy at best, and there's plenty of cheap ADC/DACs that can run 12 bits at many megahertz.    Pair one of these with a cheap ARM processor with lots of memory.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 17 June 2022 02:02
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
>> 
>> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
>> 
>> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
>> 
>> Jay S.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org





From metadata at gmx.com  Fri Jun 17 19:40:05 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 13:40:05 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <698f0e7f-7598-2a1c-cc4b-84cb521d528b@artefacts.nl>
References: <23df466d-5f2a-881c-be29-bc855243f4bc@gmx.com>
 <3410B657-55AB-4753-8946-43280ACBF763@comcast.net>
 <8dd83c2e-5d85-111a-723f-39e3bcd4984d@gmx.com>
 <2abcd4db-2012-3646-e25b-d95d810ba442@comcast.net>
 <2BC200F39D714BF098FEFCA531B319B0@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>
 <CACVQNWWRC8yR=Hghvmp=AuBX4V2t+90_VPuthf+kziFnuB6mPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6b23c375-9d59-a09e-4520-51bf8f0857a0@gmx.com>
 <CA+wjhVsVUw_6U4-ZbccrJ=_nCMQAKE-iCyRA+q_djNL6JmwJbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7cb844e3-84e6-d90e-06df-d5080c250cf2@gmx.com>
 <CAAv6=UD37B+wEzp1jaZccZ9Kfsjp6DxbvLyYubrG37RZTu3ANA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ea1decd3-651c-ec95-d683-9ccaa5ddc087@gmx.com>
 <d622ca89f3f54950bbcf6b0c0cfeee7c@futurehorizons.com>
 <9d27caba-da1a-d1a2-daa9-3fa62561607e@gmx.com>
 <698f0e7f-7598-2a1c-cc4b-84cb521d528b@artefacts.nl>
Message-ID: <5d157f70-a5e3-2df1-9390-a2d867d732bd@gmx.com>



On 6/16/22 02:48, Maarten Halmans wrote:
> Hello Neil,
>
> Are you sure the problem is in the higher octaves, didn't you compensate
> for a problem on the low end resulting in the oscillator going sharp in
> the higher octaves? I had this twice with a Jupiter-8 oscillator, once
> it was caused by flux and the other time by a leaky FET.
>
> Best,
>
> Maarten


Hi maarten, I am doing nothing to compensate for the low end. the
oscillator design just has a scale adjust and a high-frequency trim
adjustment.

interesting about the flux though.. my thru-hole version was
water-soluble flux that I cleaned off manually. the SMT board was done
by the assembly place using a no-clean flux.

--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From ijfritz at comcast.net  Fri Jun 17 20:04:10 2022
From: ijfritz at comcast.net (Ian Fritz)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 12:04:10 -0600
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <5d157f70-a5e3-2df1-9390-a2d867d732bd@gmx.com>
References: <5d157f70-a5e3-2df1-9390-a2d867d732bd@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <2FEB2528-9AD7-42D0-A351-C988D99FDD79@comcast.net>

Something else you might try: reduce the values of the integrating cap and the reference current by a factor of two or so. This could possibly reveal any self-heating in the expo transistors.

Ian

> On Jun 17, 2022, at 11:41 AM, Neil Harper via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
>> On 6/16/22 02:48, Maarten Halmans wrote:
>> Hello Neil,
>> 
>> Are you sure the problem is in the higher octaves, didn't you compensate
>> for a problem on the low end resulting in the oscillator going sharp in
>> the higher octaves? I had this twice with a Jupiter-8 oscillator, once
>> it was caused by flux and the other time by a leaky FET.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Maarten
> 
> 
> Hi maarten, I am doing nothing to compensate for the low end. the
> oscillator design just has a scale adjust and a high-frequency trim
> adjustment.
> 
> interesting about the flux though.. my thru-hole version was
> water-soluble flux that I cleaned off manually. the SMT board was done
> by the assembly place using a no-clean flux.
> 
> --
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From hbissell at wowway.com  Fri Jun 17 20:19:21 2022
From: hbissell at wowway.com (Harry Bissell)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 14:19:21 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <5d157f70-a5e3-2df1-9390-a2d867d732bd@gmx.com>
References: <5d157f70-a5e3-2df1-9390-a2d867d732bd@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <CC27A678-66F3-49DE-A342-B31A54CE8892@wowway.com>

I?m suspicious of ?no-clean? flux. I?d always remove it (or any other flux) for applications with very high impedances like S/H and VCO timing.

Might be hard to get it out from under the expo pair in the dual SMT. 

Harry Bissell

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 17, 2022, at 1:47 PM, Neil Harper via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
>> On 6/16/22 02:48, Maarten Halmans wrote:
>> Hello Neil,
>> 
>> Are you sure the problem is in the higher octaves, didn't you compensate
>> for a problem on the low end resulting in the oscillator going sharp in
>> the higher octaves? I had this twice with a Jupiter-8 oscillator, once
>> it was caused by flux and the other time by a leaky FET.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Maarten
> 
> 
> Hi maarten, I am doing nothing to compensate for the low end. the
> oscillator design just has a scale adjust and a high-frequency trim
> adjustment.
> 
> interesting about the flux though.. my thru-hole version was
> water-soluble flux that I cleaned off manually. the SMT board was done
> by the assembly place using a no-clean flux.
> 
> --
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Sat Jun 18 00:40:55 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 18:40:55 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Need Hex Standoffs
Message-ID: <7DEB5DD1-62BC-45B1-A2CA-50701BFD1591@gmail.com>

I need at least 250 short non-metallic standoffs, male-female. Thread approximately 4-40, metric would work if it's close to that. Nylon would be good especially if it were black.

I've looked in all of the usual places and the prices are sky-high. I'm seeing prices over fifty cents apiece in hundreds and I need four for each board.  o_O  

These are HV devices, 140V~450V (low current), hence the need for insulation. Nixie tubes, magic eyes, dekatrons etc.


All suggestions welcome.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

"There is no Main Street anymore except at Disneyland?and try and buy a gun there"?Hank Hill




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sat Jun 18 00:45:58 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 22:45:58 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Need Hex Standoffs
In-Reply-To: <7DEB5DD1-62BC-45B1-A2CA-50701BFD1591@gmail.com>
References: <7DEB5DD1-62BC-45B1-A2CA-50701BFD1591@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7b63932bc9c744a3b6469ae4c4a2de6d@futurehorizons.com>

Loads on Aliexpress e.g.            https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32862529967.html


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Terry Bowman via Synth-diy
Sent: 17 June 2022 23:41
To: SDIY
Subject: [sdiy] Need Hex Standoffs

I need at least 250 short non-metallic standoffs, male-female. Thread approximately 4-40, metric would work if it's close to that. Nylon would be good especially if it were black.

I've looked in all of the usual places and the prices are sky-high. I'm seeing prices over fifty cents apiece in hundreds and I need four for each board.  o_O  

These are HV devices, 140V~450V (low current), hence the need for insulation. Nixie tubes, magic eyes, dekatrons etc.


All suggestions welcome.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

"There is no Main Street anymore except at Disneyland?and try and buy a gun there"?Hank Hill


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From declareupdate at gmail.com  Sat Jun 18 01:58:34 2022
From: declareupdate at gmail.com (Chris McDowell)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 18:58:34 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Need Hex Standoffs
In-Reply-To: <7b63932bc9c744a3b6469ae4c4a2de6d@futurehorizons.com>
References: <7b63932bc9c744a3b6469ae4c4a2de6d@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <624C8677-195E-4574-8560-DC1197489DDF@gmail.com>

I get these from amazon now... good prices from "uxell" 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 17, 2022, at 5:48 PM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Loads on Aliexpress e.g.            https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32862529967.html
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Terry Bowman via Synth-diy
> Sent: 17 June 2022 23:41
> To: SDIY
> Subject: [sdiy] Need Hex Standoffs
> 
> I need at least 250 short non-metallic standoffs, male-female. Thread approximately 4-40, metric would work if it's close to that. Nylon would be good especially if it were black.
> 
> I've looked in all of the usual places and the prices are sky-high. I'm seeing prices over fifty cents apiece in hundreds and I need four for each board.  o_O  
> 
> These are HV devices, 140V~450V (low current), hence the need for insulation. Nixie tubes, magic eyes, dekatrons etc.
> 
> 
> All suggestions welcome.
> 
> 
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
> 
> "There is no Main Street anymore except at Disneyland?and try and buy a gun there"?Hank Hill
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From list at mikebeauchamp.com  Sat Jun 18 03:58:37 2022
From: list at mikebeauchamp.com (Mike Beauchamp)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 21:58:37 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Need Hex Standoffs
In-Reply-To: <7DEB5DD1-62BC-45B1-A2CA-50701BFD1591@gmail.com>
References: <7DEB5DD1-62BC-45B1-A2CA-50701BFD1591@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59032d29-bfd1-8823-96c4-93d65cd7f4d0@mikebeauchamp.com>



On 6/17/22 18:40, Terry Bowman via Synth-diy wrote:
> I need at least 250 short non-metallic standoffs, male-female. Thread approximately 4-40, metric would work if it's close to that. Nylon would be good especially if it were black.
> 
> I've looked in all of the usual places and the prices are sky-high. I'm seeing prices over fifty cents apiece in hundreds and I need four for each board.  o_O
> 
> These are HV devices, 140V~450V (low current), hence the need for insulation. Nixie tubes, magic eyes, dekatrons etc.
> 
> 
> All suggestions welcome.
> 
> 
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"

Hi Terry,  I use to use a few different nylon standoffs that I was 
sourcing from mcmaster-carr and paying pretty high prices (especially 
since they don't offer any quantity price breaks). Now that I have a 3D 
printer, I've started banging out standoffs using PETG and satisfied 
with the results.

The ones I've been making though haven't been threaded and 4-40 thread 
is likely way too small to print. If you went down that road though, you 
could experiment with the inner hole size until you have something your 
screws could self-tap into - the PETG is pretty flexible.

Let me know if you go down that route and I can share some lessons 
learned from getting the printer to bang out hundreds of these small 
standoffs.

Mike



From phil.macphail at liivatera.com  Sat Jun 18 14:14:48 2022
From: phil.macphail at liivatera.com (Phil Macphail)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 15:14:48 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <2FEB2528-9AD7-42D0-A351-C988D99FDD79@comcast.net>
References: <2FEB2528-9AD7-42D0-A351-C988D99FDD79@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9C8E8908-A184-44BB-B9B6-8DFD9D93900F@liivatera.com>

I think this is the most likely cause suggested so far. If the expo transistor is driving an LM13700 then there is around 10 volts across one transistor, and 0.7 across the other. SMT transistor pairs are usually not monolithic so differential heating is very likely. Placing a resistor in series from the transistor to OTA will significantly reduce the thermal mis-match,


Phil

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17. Jun 2022, at 21:11, Ian Fritz via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Something else you might try: reduce the values of the integrating cap and the reference current by a factor of two or so. This could possibly reveal any self-heating in the expo transistors.
> 
> Ian
> 
>> On Jun 17, 2022, at 11:41 AM, Neil Harper via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> 
>>>> On 6/16/22 02:48, Maarten Halmans wrote:
>>> Hello Neil,
>>> 
>>> Are you sure the problem is in the higher octaves, didn't you compensate
>>> for a problem on the low end resulting in the oscillator going sharp in
>>> the higher octaves? I had this twice with a Jupiter-8 oscillator, once
>>> it was caused by flux and the other time by a leaky FET.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Maarten
>> 
>> 
>> Hi maarten, I am doing nothing to compensate for the low end. the
>> oscillator design just has a scale adjust and a high-frequency trim
>> adjustment.
>> 
>> interesting about the flux though.. my thru-hole version was
>> water-soluble flux that I cleaned off manually. the SMT board was done
>> by the assembly place using a no-clean flux.
>> 
>> --
>> /// Neil Harper
>> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Sat Jun 18 19:06:57 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 13:06:57 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Need Hex Standoffs
In-Reply-To: <7b63932bc9c744a3b6469ae4c4a2de6d@futurehorizons.com>
References: <7DEB5DD1-62BC-45B1-A2CA-50701BFD1591@gmail.com>
 <7b63932bc9c744a3b6469ae4c4a2de6d@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <F573F20C-849F-482A-A911-F2B9F5ACA9DC@gmail.com>


> On Jun 17, 2022, at 6:45 PM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> Loads on Aliexpress e.g.            https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32862529967.html <https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32862529967.html>



This is a good rabbit hole. I found these:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832685088648.html


I need to define the problem more clearly. Check out the design of this Nixie thermometer (I have one). It speaks for itself.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRlqlEg1A7k


When I'm more awake I'll reply in greater detail. I can barely type sideways right now. Thanks to everyone for all of the info so far. It's a HUGE help. Keep it coming!



Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980


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From metadata at gmx.com  Sun Jun 19 00:13:06 2022
From: metadata at gmx.com (Neil Harper)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 18:13:06 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <9C8E8908-A184-44BB-B9B6-8DFD9D93900F@liivatera.com>
References: <2FEB2528-9AD7-42D0-A351-C988D99FDD79@comcast.net>
 <9C8E8908-A184-44BB-B9B6-8DFD9D93900F@liivatera.com>
Message-ID: <baf477bf-3794-2a66-9e1c-fa053562e225@gmx.com>



On 6/18/22 08:14, Phil Macphail wrote:
> I think this is the most likely cause suggested so far. If the expo transistor is driving an LM13700 then there is around 10 volts across one transistor, and 0.7 across the other. SMT transistor pairs are usually not monolithic so differential heating is very likely. Placing a resistor in series from the transistor to OTA will significantly reduce the thermal mis-match,
>
>
> Phil

Interesting, thanks Phil. I can try the resistor, is there any rough
values I should start with? I will also try Ian's suggestion and report
back.


--
/// Neil Harper
/// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks



From johnspeth at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 04:59:39 2022
From: johnspeth at yahoo.com (John Speth)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 02:59:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>

Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've lost the schematics. It was my design.
Thanks - JJS
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From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Sun Jun 19 07:31:48 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:31:48 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UCWr=QDw5Ee8e4OYPZQiTnebka70XfOZApLm2FsO8C6Lw@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a manufacturer's logo on the ICs?  Post a pic?

I have lots of databooks from the 80s.  If the logo can be identified that
narrows it down.

MC

On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:04 PM John Speth via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
> stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
> marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
> the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
> chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
> was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
> lost the schematics. It was my design.
>
> Thanks - JJS
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sun Jun 19 10:15:58 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:15:58 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>

My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting. They're 20-pin.

However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin package).

Brian


On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've lost the schematics. It was my design.
> 
> Thanks - JJS




From johnspeth at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 13:51:58 2022
From: johnspeth at yahoo.com (John Speth)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 11:51:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UCWr=QDw5Ee8e4OYPZQiTnebka70XfOZApLm2FsO8C6Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAAv6=UCWr=QDw5Ee8e4OYPZQiTnebka70XfOZApLm2FsO8C6Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <604018815.4479722.1655639518193@mail.yahoo.com>

 There is no logo. The board is my own design and hand-wired?construction so the SSM chips will not necessarily indicate function. It is unfinished so I can't even get any clues about what pins were used. Only the power pins were wired in. I guess it will remain a mystery. - JJS
    On Saturday, June 18, 2022, 10:32:02 PM PDT, Michael E Caloroso <mec.forumreader at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Is there a manufacturer's logo on the ICs?? Post a pic?
I have lots of databooks from the 80s.? If the logo can be identified that narrows it down.

MC
On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:04 PM John Speth via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've lost the schematics. It was my design.
Thanks - JJS_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

  
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From synth1 at airmail.net  Sun Jun 19 15:03:56 2022
From: synth1 at airmail.net (synth1 at airmail.net)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 08:03:56 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>

I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.

Paul S.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of brianw
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com>
Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
They're 20-pin.

However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
package).

Brian


On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
lost the schematics. It was my design.
> 
> Thanks - JJS


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From johnspeth at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 15:58:13 2022
From: johnspeth at yahoo.com (John Speth)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 13:58:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
 <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
Message-ID: <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>

 Photo at:?https://myplace.frontier.com/~jspeth/A20G545.JPG
I should have posted this pic first. The date code accurately indicates when I built it: 1983. So anything with origins past that date are not valid.?
Thanks - JJS
    On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 06:05:02 AM PDT, <synth1 at airmail.net> wrote:  
 
 I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.

Paul S.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of brianw
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com>
Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
They're 20-pin.

However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
package).

Brian


On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
lost the schematics. It was my design.
> 
> Thanks - JJS


_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

  
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sun Jun 19 16:14:31 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 14:14:31 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
 <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
 <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ceb2e4566dcc4862a90ab451ff873c83@futurehorizons.com>

Possibly an LM389 transistor array equivalent


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of John Speth via Synth-diy
Sent: 19 June 2022 14:58
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

Photo at: https://myplace.frontier.com/~jspeth/A20G545.JPG

I should have posted this pic first. The date code accurately indicates when I built it: 1983. So anything with origins past that date are not valid.

Thanks - JJS

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 06:05:02 AM PDT, <synth1 at airmail.net<mailto:synth1 at airmail.net>> wrote:


I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.

Paul S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>> On Behalf Of brianw
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com<mailto:johnspeth at yahoo.com>>
Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
They're 20-pin.

However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
package).

Brian


On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
lost the schematics. It was my design.
>
> Thanks - JJS



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>

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From johnspeth at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 16:54:08 2022
From: johnspeth at yahoo.com (John Speth)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 14:54:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <ceb2e4566dcc4862a90ab451ff873c83@futurehorizons.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
 <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
 <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>
 <ceb2e4566dcc4862a90ab451ff873c83@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <1236456079.4497074.1655650448823@mail.yahoo.com>

 I don't think it was an LM389 (audio power amp) but that got me thinking: Could it be a mismarked SSM2033? The pin count matches and the power connections (the only connections wired) are consistent with the data sheet. Sometimes shipments to manufacturers are marked according to the buyer's specs (obfuscation, custom variation, etc). I can't remember from whom I was buying my small quantity SSM chips at the time. There were not a lot of retail mail order sellers back then. - JJS
    On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 07:14:38 AM PDT, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:  
 
 
Possibly an LM389 transistor array equivalent
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org]On Behalf Of John Speth via Synth-diy
Sent: 19 June 2022 14:58
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
 
 ?
 
Photo at:?https://myplace.frontier.com/~jspeth/A20G545.JPG
 
 ?
 
I should have posted this pic first. The date code accurately indicates when I built it: 1983. So anything with origins past that date are not valid.?
 
 ?
 
Thanks - JJS
 
 ?
 
On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 06:05:02 AM PDT, <synth1 at airmail.net> wrote:
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.

Paul S.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of brianw
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com>
Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
They're 20-pin.

However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
package).

Brian


On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
lost the schematics. It was my design.
> 
> Thanks - JJS
 



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
 
 ?
   
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From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Sun Jun 19 17:54:57 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 11:54:57 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <1236456079.4497074.1655650448823@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
 <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
 <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>
 <ceb2e4566dcc4862a90ab451ff873c83@futurehorizons.com>
 <1236456079.4497074.1655650448823@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UCLuJeb2-7gfEWHT24DvEBKbLMEVz9XT_qwwx5mkEv0Dg@mail.gmail.com>

Any markings on the bottom of the case?

Manufacturers have been known to bin from a lot of ICs for certain specs
then apply their own markings on them (there does appear to be a paint
layer on the case).  Could be an in-house part.  They also do this to deter
copycats.

MC

On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 10:58 AM John Speth via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> I don't think it was an LM389 (audio power amp) but that got me thinking:
> Could it be a mismarked SSM2033? The pin count matches and the power
> connections (the only connections wired) are consistent with the data
> sheet. Sometimes shipments to manufacturers are marked according to the
> buyer's specs (obfuscation, custom variation, etc). I can't remember from
> whom I was buying my small quantity SSM chips at the time. There were not a
> lot of retail mail order sellers back then. - JJS
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 07:14:38 AM PDT, Mike Bryant <
> mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
> Possibly an LM389 transistor array equivalent
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *John
> Speth via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* 19 June 2022 14:58
> *To:* SDIY
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
>
>
>
> Photo at: https://myplace.frontier.com/~jspeth/A20G545.JPG
>
>
>
> I should have posted this pic first. The date code accurately indicates
> when I built it: 1983. So anything with origins past that date are not
> valid.
>
>
>
> Thanks - JJS
>
>
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 06:05:02 AM PDT, <synth1 at airmail.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.
>
> Paul S.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of brianw
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
> To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com>
> Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
>
> My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
> They're 20-pin.
>
> However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
> package).
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> > Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
> stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
> marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
> the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
> chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
> was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
> lost the schematics. It was my design.
> >
> > Thanks - JJS
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From johnspeth at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 18:09:50 2022
From: johnspeth at yahoo.com (John Speth)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 16:09:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UCLuJeb2-7gfEWHT24DvEBKbLMEVz9XT_qwwx5mkEv0Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
 <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
 <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>
 <ceb2e4566dcc4862a90ab451ff873c83@futurehorizons.com>
 <1236456079.4497074.1655650448823@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAAv6=UCLuJeb2-7gfEWHT24DvEBKbLMEVz9XT_qwwx5mkEv0Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <184374628.4524476.1655654990207@mail.yahoo.com>

 The bottom is unmarked. I doubt it's painted either. The scuff marks on the corners are probably from sliding around in a plastic storage tube. I remember many black plastic chips from those days having scuff marks on the corners.?
My next step will be an in-circuit test on the heater, an isolated circuit. If the heater current matches the data sheet, I'll do further low risk tests, like the pin 2 zener diode.? - JJS
    On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 08:55:11 AM PDT, Michael E Caloroso <mec.forumreader at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Any markings on the bottom of the case?
Manufacturers have been known to bin from a lot of ICs for certain specs then apply their own markings on them (there does appear to be a paint layer on the case).? Could be an in-house part.? They also do this to deter copycats.

MC
On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 10:58 AM John Speth via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

 I don't think it was an LM389 (audio power amp) but that got me thinking: Could it be a mismarked SSM2033? The pin count matches and the power connections (the only connections wired) are consistent with the data sheet. Sometimes shipments to manufacturers are marked according to the buyer's specs (obfuscation, custom variation, etc). I can't remember from whom I was buying my small quantity SSM chips at the time. There were not a lot of retail mail order sellers back then. - JJS
    On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 07:14:38 AM PDT, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:  
 
 
Possibly an LM389 transistor array equivalent
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org]On Behalf Of John Speth via Synth-diy
Sent: 19 June 2022 14:58
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
 
 ?
 
Photo at:?https://myplace.frontier.com/~jspeth/A20G545.JPG
 
 ?
 
I should have posted this pic first. The date code accurately indicates when I built it: 1983. So anything with origins past that date are not valid.?
 
 ?
 
Thanks - JJS
 
 ?
 
On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 06:05:02 AM PDT, <synth1 at airmail.net> wrote:
 
 ?
 
 ?
 
I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.

Paul S.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of brianw
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com>
Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
They're 20-pin.

However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
package).

Brian


On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
lost the schematics. It was my design.
> 
> Thanks - JJS
 



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
 
 ?
   _______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

  
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From nathan at idmclassics.net  Sun Jun 19 20:57:32 2022
From: nathan at idmclassics.net (Nathan Trites)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 14:57:32 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <1236456079.4497074.1655650448823@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
 <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
 <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>
 <ceb2e4566dcc4862a90ab451ff873c83@futurehorizons.com>
 <1236456079.4497074.1655650448823@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAHy3N6Ba1L73ichann1_EjtA5gVydVVvet8LiSf-mJcsPVic7A@mail.gmail.com>

There certainly are pictures of plastic SSM ICs with similar datecode lines
and lettering just as wonky so that could be it...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192742272128
https://picclick.com/SSM2033-VCO-chip-NOS-Korg-MP4-Monopoly-etc-332999604291.html

Nathan

On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 10:54 AM John Speth via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> I don't think it was an LM389 (audio power amp) but that got me thinking:
> Could it be a mismarked SSM2033? The pin count matches and the power
> connections (the only connections wired) are consistent with the data
> sheet. Sometimes shipments to manufacturers are marked according to the
> buyer's specs (obfuscation, custom variation, etc). I can't remember from
> whom I was buying my small quantity SSM chips at the time. There were not a
> lot of retail mail order sellers back then. - JJS
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 07:14:38 AM PDT, Mike Bryant <
> mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>
>
> Possibly an LM389 transistor array equivalent
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *John
> Speth via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* 19 June 2022 14:58
> *To:* SDIY
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
>
>
>
> Photo at: https://myplace.frontier.com/~jspeth/A20G545.JPG
>
>
>
> I should have posted this pic first. The date code accurately indicates
> when I built it: 1983. So anything with origins past that date are not
> valid.
>
>
>
> Thanks - JJS
>
>
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 06:05:02 AM PDT, <synth1 at airmail.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.
>
> Paul S.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of brianw
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
> To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com>
> Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
>
> My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
> They're 20-pin.
>
> However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
> package).
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> > Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
> stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
> marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
> the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
> chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
> was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
> lost the schematics. It was my design.
> >
> > Thanks - JJS
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Mon Jun 20 00:57:49 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 22:57:49 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <CAHy3N6Ba1L73ichann1_EjtA5gVydVVvet8LiSf-mJcsPVic7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
 <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
 <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>
 <ceb2e4566dcc4862a90ab451ff873c83@futurehorizons.com>
 <1236456079.4497074.1655650448823@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHy3N6Ba1L73ichann1_EjtA5gVydVVvet8LiSf-mJcsPVic7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <em906d3367-df36-4000-b9e8-799554c5ccfa@asus_n76>


I was thinking that too. SSM came from Exar, non? I seem to recall Exar having some pretty sad looking silkscreening.


------ Original Message ------
From: "Nathan Trites" <nathan at idmclassics.net<mailto:nathan at idmclassics.net>>
To: "John Speth" <johnspeth at yahoo.com<mailto:johnspeth at yahoo.com>>
Cc: "SDIY" <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
Sent: 6/19/2022 11:57:32 AM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

There certainly are pictures of plastic SSM ICs with similar datecode lines and lettering just as wonky so that could be it...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192742272128
https://picclick.com/SSM2033-VCO-chip-NOS-Korg-MP4-Monopoly-etc-332999604291.html

Nathan

On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 10:54 AM John Speth via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
I don't think it was an LM389 (audio power amp) but that got me thinking: Could it be a mismarked SSM2033? The pin count matches and the power connections (the only connections wired) are consistent with the data sheet. Sometimes shipments to manufacturers are marked according to the buyer's specs (obfuscation, custom variation, etc). I can't remember from whom I was buying my small quantity SSM chips at the time. There were not a lot of retail mail order sellers back then. - JJS

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 07:14:38 AM PDT, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:



Possibly an LM389 transistor array equivalent





From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>] On Behalf Of John Speth via Synth-diy
Sent: 19 June 2022 14:58
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?



Photo at: https://myplace.frontier.com/~jspeth/A20G545.JPG



I should have posted this pic first. The date code accurately indicates when I built it: 1983. So anything with origins past that date are not valid.



Thanks - JJS



On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 06:05:02 AM PDT, <synth1 at airmail.net<mailto:synth1 at airmail.net>> wrote:





I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.

Paul S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org>> On Behalf Of brianw
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com<mailto:johnspeth at yahoo.com>>
Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
They're 20-pin.

However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
package).

Brian


On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
lost the schematics. It was my design.
>
> Thanks - JJS



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>



_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
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From johnspeth at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 20 03:55:03 2022
From: johnspeth at yahoo.com (John Speth)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 01:55:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <em906d3367-df36-4000-b9e8-799554c5ccfa@asus_n76>
References: <985257120.1057123.1655607579311.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <985257120.1057123.1655607579311@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0DE9A4D3-CEF7-4C7F-9ADF-4261906EAB92@audiobanshee.com>
 <004801d883dd$0a567940$1f036bc0$@airmail.net>
 <639230461.2840251.1655647093520@mail.yahoo.com>
 <ceb2e4566dcc4862a90ab451ff873c83@futurehorizons.com>
 <1236456079.4497074.1655650448823@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAHy3N6Ba1L73ichann1_EjtA5gVydVVvet8LiSf-mJcsPVic7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <em906d3367-df36-4000-b9e8-799554c5ccfa@asus_n76>
Message-ID: <1396699029.2970309.1655690103429@mail.yahoo.com>

 Some deep searching has also led me to SSM chips. The "MCE" mark matches all my other properly marked SSM chips. I think I have enough confidence that testing the chip assuming it's an SSM2033 is the right way to proceed. I'll do so and report back.
Thanks everyone for helping me sleuth. :)
JJS
    On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 03:57:52 PM PDT, grant musictechnologiesgroup.com <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:  
 
 
I was thinking that too. SSM came from Exar, non? I seem to recall Exar having some pretty sad looking silkscreening.

------ Original Message ------From: "Nathan Trites" <nathan at idmclassics.net>To: "John Speth" <johnspeth at yahoo.com>Cc: "SDIY" <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>Sent: 6/19/2022 11:57:32 AMSubject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

There certainly are pictures of plastic SSM ICs with similar datecode lines and lettering just as wonky so that could be it...https://www.ebay.com/itm/192742272128
https://picclick.com/SSM2033-VCO-chip-NOS-Korg-MP4-Monopoly-etc-332999604291.html

Nathan
On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 10:54 AM John Speth via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

I don't think it was an LM389 (audio power amp) but that got me thinking: Could it be a mismarked SSM2033? The pin count matches and the power connections (the only connections wired) are consistent with the data sheet. Sometimes shipments to manufacturers are marked according to the buyer's specs (obfuscation, custom variation, etc). I can't remember from whom I was buying my small quantity SSM chips at the time. There were not a lot of retail mail order sellers back then. - JJS
On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 07:14:38 AM PDT, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:


Possibly an LM389 transistor array equivalent

?

?

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org]On Behalf Of John Speth via Synth-diy
Sent: 19 June 2022 14:58
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

?

Photo at:?https://myplace.frontier.com/~jspeth/A20G545.JPG

?

I should have posted this pic first. The date code accurately indicates when I built it: 1983. So anything with origins past that date are not valid.?

?

Thanks - JJS

?

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 06:05:02 AM PDT, <synth1 at airmail.net> wrote:

?

?

I'm pretty good at this if I can SEE a photo.

Paul S.


-----Original Message-----
From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of brianw
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:16 AM
To: John Speth <johnspeth at yahoo.com>
Cc: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Subject: Re: [sdiy] A20G545 chip, what is it?

My first guess was a 74x545 octal bidirectional transceiver, non-inverting.
They're 20-pin.

However, that doesn't seem to fit on a SSM voice card (or into an 18-pin
package).

Brian


On Jun 18, 2022, at 7:59 PM, John Speth wrote:
> Today I was dumping old circuit boards that I built many years ago. I was
stripping valuable parts from one and I found two 18 pin DIPs that are
marked "A20G545" on one line and "MCE 8211" on the line below it. 8211 is
the date code (1982). The other markings are a mystery. Searching for this
chip online was a dead end for me. Does anybody know what it could be? It
was from a board that contained an SSM 2012 VCA and an SSM 2044 VCF. I've
lost the schematics. It was my design.
> 
> Thanks - JJS




_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

?
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


  
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From phil.macphail at liivatera.com  Mon Jun 20 13:21:24 2022
From: phil.macphail at liivatera.com (Phil Macphail)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 14:21:24 +0300
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <baf477bf-3794-2a66-9e1c-fa053562e225@gmx.com>
References: <2FEB2528-9AD7-42D0-A351-C988D99FDD79@comcast.net>
 <9C8E8908-A184-44BB-B9B6-8DFD9D93900F@liivatera.com>
 <baf477bf-3794-2a66-9e1c-fa053562e225@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <5BF06C14-D779-4F1F-AF7D-B7AC45F15CB7@liivatera.com>

The LM13700 Iabc max is 2mA so 4.7k should work fine. Bigger if you don?t use such a high current in your design.


Phil.

> On 19. Jun 2022, at 01:13, Neil Harper via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/18/22 08:14, Phil Macphail wrote:
>> I think this is the most likely cause suggested so far. If the expo transistor is driving an LM13700 then there is around 10 volts across one transistor, and 0.7 across the other. SMT transistor pairs are usually not monolithic so differential heating is very likely. Placing a resistor in series from the transistor to OTA will significantly reduce the thermal mis-match,
>> 
>> 
>> Phil
> 
> Interesting, thanks Phil. I can try the resistor, is there any rough
> values I should start with? I will also try Ian's suggestion and report
> back.
> 
> 
> --
> /// Neil Harper
> /// Every Wave is New Until it Breaks
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jun 20 13:40:29 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 11:40:29 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] VCO that goes SHARP in highest octaves??
In-Reply-To: <5BF06C14-D779-4F1F-AF7D-B7AC45F15CB7@liivatera.com>
References: <2FEB2528-9AD7-42D0-A351-C988D99FDD79@comcast.net>
 <9C8E8908-A184-44BB-B9B6-8DFD9D93900F@liivatera.com>
 <baf477bf-3794-2a66-9e1c-fa053562e225@gmx.com>
 <5BF06C14-D779-4F1F-AF7D-B7AC45F15CB7@liivatera.com>
Message-ID: <b572aef08050448d9f35f4373fdd26ab@futurehorizons.com>

>. SMT transistor pairs are usually not monolithic so differential heating is very likely. 

You have to be careful on that.  I've found some devices, notably some from Zetex and also some Chinese brands, are on a single die.  Which is good for temperature, not so good for crosstalk.



From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 01:07:17 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 19:07:17 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <CB8434D2-FD1C-4A13-AF22-B3F2FAC06D83@gmail.com>


> On Jun 16, 2022, at 7:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> 
> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details.

IIRC, one reason that 1024s usually have two 512s is so that you can clock them separately for a lush chorus. Modulate one clock with a triangle wave and the other with the wave inverted. The PAiA string keyboard did this. There's a web site somewhere that has all of the variations used in string synths, the Dimension D and so on.

I suppose you could run one at the highest possible frequency/shortest delay time and have the second, modulated BBD in parallel. That would make flanging with insanely high frequency peaks/notches possible. Or something like that. Has anyone tried it?


> I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:

Heh. My copy is around here somewhere.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

?...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.??Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", Cosmos, 1980


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From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Wed Jun 22 12:50:00 2022
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 12:50:00 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <CB8434D2-FD1C-4A13-AF22-B3F2FAC06D83@gmail.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <CB8434D2-FD1C-4A13-AF22-B3F2FAC06D83@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16d35dc2-d261-9abd-7473-ee35b9668138@mnet-online.de>

Hello Terry

Am 22.06.22 um 01:07 schrieb Terry Bowman via Synth-diy:
> There's a web site somewhere that has all of the variations used in 
> string synths, the Dimension D and so on.
My site lists the roland chorus'es:
https://www.florian-anwander.de/roland_string_choruses/

> I suppose you could run one at the highest possible frequency/shortest 
> delay time and have the second, modulated BBD in parallel. That would 
> make flanging with insanely high frequency peaks/notches possible. Or 
> something like that. Has anyone tried it?
Not with the SAD1024, but it is one of the best tricks with the Korg 
SDD-1200 (or the SDD3300): Set the delaytime to on both channels to 
10ms, modulate only one channel and listen to the mono mix of the 
100%-effect-signal of both channels. => It is, what I call "thru zero 
flanging".? I love it.

Florian
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From hbissell at wowway.com  Wed Jun 22 16:27:50 2022
From: hbissell at wowway.com (Mr&MrsAccount)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:27:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <16d35dc2-d261-9abd-7473-ee35b9668138@mnet-online.de>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <CB8434D2-FD1C-4A13-AF22-B3F2FAC06D83@gmail.com>
 <16d35dc2-d261-9abd-7473-ee35b9668138@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <1805128756.80903719.1655908070976.JavaMail.zimbra@wowway.com>


QUOTE: It is, what I call "thru zero flanging".? 
? 
LOL.? That's what everyone else calls it as well ! 
? 
The downside is the lower you want the flange to go, the longer the initial delay needs to be. 
? 
Harry 
? 
   

-----Original Message-----

From: Florian <fanwander at mnet-online.de>
To: SDIY <synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
Date: Wednesday, 22 June 2022 6:56 AM EDT
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency

 Hello Terry

Am 22.06.22 um 01:07 schrieb Terry Bowman via Synth-diy: 
 
There's a web site somewhere that has all of the variations used in string synths, the Dimension D and so on.  My site lists the roland chorus'es:
https://www.florian-anwander.de/roland_string_choruses/

 
 
I suppose you could run one at the highest possible frequency/shortest delay time and have the second, modulated BBD in parallel. That would make flanging with insanely high frequency peaks/notches possible. Or something like that. Has anyone tried it?  Not with the SAD1024, but it is one of the best tricks with the Korg SDD-1200 (or the SDD3300): Set the delaytime to on both channels to 10ms, modulate only one channel and listen to the mono mix of the 100%-effect-signal of both channels. => It is, what I call "thru zero flanging".? I love it.

Florian  
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From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Wed Jun 22 16:40:04 2022
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:40:04 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <1805128756.80903719.1655908070976.JavaMail.zimbra@wowway.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <CB8434D2-FD1C-4A13-AF22-B3F2FAC06D83@gmail.com>
 <16d35dc2-d261-9abd-7473-ee35b9668138@mnet-online.de>
 <1805128756.80903719.1655908070976.JavaMail.zimbra@wowway.com>
Message-ID: <7e8d1d91-3f5d-bb0d-ec9a-66e9846e286c@mnet-online.de>

Hello Harry

Am 22.06.22 um 16:27 schrieb Mr&MrsAccount:
> LOL.? That's what everyone else calls it as well !
:-) I am glad, that I am like everyone else - even as a Germerman... (? 
Deads Don't Wear Plaid)

> ?The downside is the lower you want the flange to go, the longer the 
> initial delay needs to be.
To my experience the sound gets to much chorus like (and shattering if 
used with feedback) before the allover delay of the signal is really 
recognizable.

Florian
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From modular at go2.pl  Thu Jun 23 11:34:04 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 11:34:04 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
Message-ID: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>

Hello,
what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers? 
Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with 
dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.

One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to 
do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always 
change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or supercapacitor 
may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly state somewhere, in 
manual, or on the device "please run maintenance procedure if it's year 
ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will do that anyway, and it 
seems foolish.

People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive 
maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial 
electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical 
instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's too 
late and it's simply broken.

I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2 years".

Roman


From sleepy_dog at gmx.de  Thu Jun 23 12:42:22 2022
From: sleepy_dog at gmx.de (sleepy_dog at gmx.de)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 12:42:22 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <7a26858c-a862-187d-c5d7-6692a119b2ad@gmx.de>


there are dedicated runtime keeper ICs, which have the disadvantage that
they don't do anything when not in use.
But if you have a typical runtime profile of a certain application,
perhaps you can estimate from the runtime the rough real time of
"sitting around".
Of course if someone buys a device for hobby and the use times are less
frequent / regular, bets are off.

I mean like this thing: (not in stock of course, lol)
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/analog-devices-inc-maxim-integrated/DS1683S/3479531

You can query the total time it has been "on".


Roman Sowa:
> Hello,
> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers?
> Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with
> dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
>
> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how
> to do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may
> always change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or
> supercapacitor may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly
> state somewhere, in manual, or on the device "please run maintenance
> procedure if it's year ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will
> do that anyway, and it seems foolish.
>
> People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive
> maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial
> electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical
> instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's too
> late and it's simply broken.
>
> I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2
> years".
>
> Roman
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>




From tom at electricdruid.net  Thu Jun 23 14:02:32 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 13:02:32 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <C8BD182A-9266-4E99-8A0D-FFC3DFFA0E94@electricdruid.net>

Could you instead assume some "average number of boot-ups per year" and then re-write the memory at start-up after the chip has booted up X times?

For some people who leave the thing in the cupboard for years, it won't help them, but then again, if they pull it out of the cupboard after 15 years and it doesn't work, they're not exactly going to be surprised. For everyone else, it might be enough. For regular users, it might write the memory more than necessary, but it wouldn't be frequently enough to really shorten the lifespan.

HTH,
Tom

==================
       Electric Druid
Synth & Stompbox DIY
==================



> On 23 Jun 2022, at 10:34, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers? Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
> 
> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or supercapacitor may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly state somewhere, in manual, or on the device "please run maintenance procedure if it's year ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will do that anyway, and it seems foolish.
> 
> People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's too late and it's simply broken.
> 
> I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2 years".
> 
> Roman
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Thu Jun 23 14:18:09 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 13:18:09 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <C8BD182A-9266-4E99-8A0D-FFC3DFFA0E94@electricdruid.net>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <C8BD182A-9266-4E99-8A0D-FFC3DFFA0E94@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <d1abed163c0628d3db880312a2ab8c35@richieburnett.co.uk>

Roman are you talking about "bit rot" in the program Flash of dsPICs?  
Can you remember the part number of the devices that you observed the 
issue with?

-Richie,


On 2022-06-23 13:02, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> Could you instead assume some "average number of boot-ups per year"
> and then re-write the memory at start-up after the chip has booted up
> X times?
> 
> For some people who leave the thing in the cupboard for years, it
> won't help them, but then again, if they pull it out of the cupboard
> after 15 years and it doesn't work, they're not exactly going to be
> surprised. For everyone else, it might be enough. For regular users,
> it might write the memory more than necessary, but it wouldn't be
> frequently enough to really shorten the lifespan.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom
> 
> ==================
>        Electric Druid
> Synth & Stompbox DIY
> ==================
> 
> 
> 
>> On 23 Jun 2022, at 10:34, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers? 
>> Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 
>> 20.
>> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with 
>> dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
>> 
>> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how 
>> to do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may 
>> always change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or 
>> supercapacitor may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly 
>> state somewhere, in manual, or on the device "please run maintenance 
>> procedure if it's year ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will 
>> do that anyway, and it seems foolish.
>> 
>> People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive 
>> maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial 
>> electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical 
>> instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's too 
>> late and it's simply broken.
>> 
>> I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2 
>> years".
>> 
>> Roman
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Thu Jun 23 17:18:39 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:18:39 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <em5ad0b02b-91cc-47df-b76a-e57c2a7871d5@asus_n76>

Is there *any* ROM in the part like a bootloader? Assuming one utilizes 
that, the end user could reflash the OS after 10 years or something.  
Failing that, a reflash using a debugger and the original firmware file 
I guess (yet another tool for the repair shop to own). Makes EPROMs look 
attractive LOL.

GB

PS. And here I'm getting sick of just having to charge up all the 
various things I own that use rechargeable batteries... headphones, 
flashlights, doorbells, etc.



From ka4hjh at gmail.com  Thu Jun 23 23:38:32 2022
From: ka4hjh at gmail.com (Terry Bowman)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 17:38:32 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <em5ad0b02b-91cc-47df-b76a-e57c2a7871d5@asus_n76>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <em5ad0b02b-91cc-47df-b76a-e57c2a7871d5@asus_n76>
Message-ID: <C69AE667-584B-4802-9B00-54FFA1912827@gmail.com>


> On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:18 AM, grant musictechnologiesgroup.com <grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> Makes EPROMs look 
> attractive LOL.

As it happens I'm worried about the various EPROMs in my device collection. Starting off with the firmware for...my EPROM burner. I have backups of everything but if I can't use the burner, well... 8/


> PS. And here I'm getting sick of just having to charge up all the 
> various things I own that use rechargeable batteries... headphones, 
> flashlights, doorbells, etc.


Three iPhones and an iPod. I'm sick of it.


Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

"I?ve seen things you people wouldn?t believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near Tannh?user Gate. 

"All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain."? Roy Batty, Blade Runner <https://youtu.be/TNbJ45yyVcY>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Fri Jun 24 02:26:45 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 17:26:45 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <610D35DC-4FBA-4767-94FD-1EAF7F6F7317@audiobanshee.com>

One part of a solution is to use professional-grade programming for production products. I have spoken with Microchip at length, and they recommend the ICD3 programmer or better. It strictly controls the voltage of the PIC when programming, so that read-back is not marginal. This doesn't extend the longevity, per se, but it ensures that the correct values are readable for as long as the device lasts. You have to invest $300 in the programmer, rather than $30, but it's a small price to pay to ensure that the promised longevity is available.


On a related note, external memory like eMMC now has boot partitions that can be configured for High Reliability. There's a sacrifice of total capacity because redundancy is used to circumvent bit rot as long as possible. eMMC also has modes (for non-boot partitions) that keep track of the age of each sector and rewrite sectors in High Reliability areas before they get too old to read back, but this may only work in read/write areas, and thus may not work for the boot partition(s). These features are often combined with Secure Boot to make sure that malware firmware will not boot your device and thereby compromise integrity of the product.

The problem with eMMC, of course, is that PIC chips aren't designed to boot from them. ARM chips on the higher end will boot from external Flash and your boards can be designed with an ARM that boots from a eMMC in High Reliability mode. If you're concerned about long-term reliability then you might need to migrate away from Microchip to any of the ARM chips that support modern Flash technology for boot.


In any case, I support your focus on designing products that last at least 20 years instead of at most 2 years.

Brian


On Jun 23, 2022, at 2:34 AM, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
> Hello,
> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers? Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
> 
> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or supercapacitor may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly state somewhere, in manual, or on the device "please run maintenance procedure if it's year ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will do that anyway, and it seems foolish.
> 
> People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's too late and it's simply broken.
> 
> I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2 years".
> 
> Roman




From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Fri Jun 24 12:42:05 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 11:42:05 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <dd8aa49d122889a9da27ecc90f9bec01@richieburnett.co.uk>

I know that some products I designed using dsPIC30F series (not audio 
related) are in use in tens of thousands around the world and I haven't 
heard about any failures.  But of course they might have gradually been 
replaced over the intervening two decades!  I also noticed that the 
longevity of the Flash is longer for these first generation 5V dsPIC 
parts.  My understanding is that re-writing pages of Flash to store user 
parameters also shortens the longevity.  Some other microcontrollers I'm 
using now quote longevity for <1000 E/W cycles and another smaller 
figure for >1000 E/W cycles!  (That's one good reason not to sell 
development prototypes.)

Perhaps it's possible to protect the firmware with an ECC block (error 
correcting code,)  so that the first sign of corruption can be detected 
*and then corrected* with a fresh re-write!  Sounds like a lot of effort 
to go to though (>.<)

-Richie,



On 2022-06-23 10:34, Roman Sowa wrote:
> Hello,
> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers?
> Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only
> 20.
> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with
> dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
> 
> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how
> to do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may
> always change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or
> supercapacitor may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly
> state somewhere, in manual, or on the device "please run maintenance
> procedure if it's year ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will
> do that anyway, and it seems foolish.
> 
> People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive
> maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial
> electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical
> instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's too
> late and it's simply broken.
> 
> I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2 
> years".
> 
> Roman
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From sleepy_dog at gmx.de  Fri Jun 24 13:18:09 2022
From: sleepy_dog at gmx.de (sleepy_dog at gmx.de)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 13:18:09 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <dd8aa49d122889a9da27ecc90f9bec01@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <dd8aa49d122889a9da27ecc90f9bec01@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5e46d16a-587f-0cbf-fe35-031b04a99701@gmx.de>


rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk:
> parts.  My understanding is that re-writing pages of Flash to store
> user parameters also shortens the longevity.  Some other
> microcontrollers I'm using now quote longevity for <1000 E/W cycles
> and another smaller figure for >1000 E/W cycles! (That's one good
> reason not to sell development prototypes.)

Apparently also operating temperature.
 From an ST document "en.STM32G4-Memory-Flash_FLASH.pdf", there it says:

Data retention:

30 years after 10k cycles @ 55?C
15 years after 10k cycles @ 85?C
10 years after 10k cycles @ 105?C

30 years after 1k cycles @ 85?C
15 years after 1k cycles @ 105?C
7 years after 1k cycles @ 125?C

They call this "design expectation". I guess it's hard to artificially
speed this up for testing it accurately.




From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jun 24 14:38:33 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 14:38:33 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <7a26858c-a862-187d-c5d7-6692a119b2ad@gmx.de>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <7a26858c-a862-187d-c5d7-6692a119b2ad@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <201f3ec9-9ed6-8ebb-5cfb-2b65da84a94f@go2.pl>

Thank you for all the replies, I'll try to combine my responses in one 
go. TLDR - we're all doomed, there's no way out.

==================
Steve said about specialized runtime chips.
Well, that one's even more expensive than the microcontroller, and I can 
add such runtime count in the micro itself. But it's good to know they 
exist, I recall them being mechanical long time ago

==================
Tom Wiltshirte said:
 > Could you instead assume some "average number of boot-ups per year" 
and then re-write the memory at start-up after the chip has booted up X 
times?

That sounds reasonable. Simply don't care about the people who don't 
turn it on for years, they don't need it anyway, so let them burn in hell

==================
Grant asked:
 > Is there *any* ROM in the part like a bootloader? Assuming one utilizes
 > that, the end user could reflash the OS after 10 years or something.

No, there's no ROM bootloader. That would be easy, then I'd use serial 
memory with 100 years data endurance.

==================
Brian W said some valid points about proper programmer and robust eMMC.
Why would you assume that I'm not using ICD3 (and ICD2 before that)? And 
I'd love to sacrifice part of memory for error correction, but PICs do 
not provide anything to do that. Booting from external memory of any 
kind is something I considered too, but I don't think I will migrate to 
higher end ARM chips ever. Although I've used booting from external 
memory in the past, that was the only way to go with DSP.

==================
Richie Burnett said:
 > Perhaps it's possible to protect the firmware with an ECC block (error
 > correcting code,)  so that the first sign of corruption can be detected
 > *and then corrected* with a fresh re-write!

Yes, that's possible. But what if first sign of corruption happens in 
first instruction, or inside memory test procedure? Poor micro will not 
even be aware its dead.
I've also noticed that in time, new micros are made with smaller and 
smaller process, hence being cheaper with more features, but OTOH 
needing lower voltage for operation, and with poorer flash retention.
Also, congrats of having tens of thousands copies of your work out 
there! Did you get a "golden record" like you would if it was a pop album?

==================
and Steve again:
 > 7 years after 1k cycles @ 125?C

that's scary, OTOH you can't easily find 125?C inside a synth, more like 
60 or so, the only reason all that gear still works, but not for long 
anyway.

==================

The bottom line, all that data retention thing makes me want to build a 
synth with pure logic only, without any memory. Or use old style micro 
with no internal program memory, and external FRAM which is extimated 
for 280 years retention in room temp.

I think I'll use Tom's suggestion to simply count powerups and start a 
rewrite every few hundred of them or so.

Thanks for valuable discussion
Roman


> 
> 
> Roman Sowa:
>> Hello,
>> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers?
>> Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
>> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with
>> dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
>>
>> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how
>> to do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may
>> always change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or
>> supercapacitor may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly
>> state somewhere, in manual, or on the device "please run maintenance
>> procedure if it's year ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will
>> do that anyway, and it seems foolish.
>>
>> People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive
>> maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial
>> electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical
>> instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's too
>> late and it's simply broken.
>>
>> I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2
>> years".
>>
>> Roman
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com  Fri Jun 24 14:50:38 2022
From: mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com (mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 08:50:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206240847220.22701@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Roman Sowa wrote:
> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with dsPIC, so
> datasheet value seems real.
>
> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to do
> that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always change the

The last page of flash program memory on the PIC24F parts I'm using cannot
be rewritten under program control because it contains the configuration
"fuse" settings.  Erase it as a first step in rewriting it, and you've
bricked the part.  The only safe way to program it is through in-circuit
programming with a separate programming device, not practical to implement
as part of a product.  So one basically just has to accept that the
lifetime of data in that page, and therefore of the part because that data
is essential for boot-up, will be the lifetime of the initial programming.

Now, my understanding is that the configuration "fuses" are read to
separate registers upon boot-up rather than being used directly from
program memory.  So it seems plausible that maybe one could erase the last
page, have the microcontroller continue running, and then rewrite the page
and it would be okay, provided the entire operation happened without any
interruption of power.  But I haven't attempted that and it's certainly
not authorized by Microchip - their docs say never try to rewrite the last
page under program control at all.  It would be very fragile with respect
to to any power interruption during the attempt.

-- 
Matthew Skala
North Coast Synthesis Ltd.


From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jun 24 15:25:57 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 15:25:57 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <d1abed163c0628d3db880312a2ab8c35@richieburnett.co.uk>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <C8BD182A-9266-4E99-8A0D-FFC3DFFA0E94@electricdruid.net>
 <d1abed163c0628d3db880312a2ab8c35@richieburnett.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33b55a51-173f-fab1-84cd-534a7f248509@go2.pl>

Richie, it was dsPIC30F6011

Roman

W dniu 2022-06-23 o?14:18, rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk pisze:
> Roman are you talking about "bit rot" in the program Flash of dsPICs? 
> Can you remember the part number of the devices that you observed the 
> issue with?
> 
> -Richie,
> 
> 
> On 2022-06-23 13:02, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>> Could you instead assume some "average number of boot-ups per year"
>> and then re-write the memory at start-up after the chip has booted up
>> X times?
>>
>> For some people who leave the thing in the cupboard for years, it
>> won't help them, but then again, if they pull it out of the cupboard
>> after 15 years and it doesn't work, they're not exactly going to be
>> surprised. For everyone else, it might be enough. For regular users,
>> it might write the memory more than necessary, but it wouldn't be
>> frequently enough to really shorten the lifespan.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Tom
>>
>> ==================
>> ?????? Electric Druid
>> Synth & Stompbox DIY
>> ==================
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 23 Jun 2022, at 10:34, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> what are your concerns about flash retention time in 
>>> microcontrollers? Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in 
>>> datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
>>> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with 
>>> dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
>>>
>>> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how 
>>> to do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may 
>>> always change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or 
>>> supercapacitor may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly 
>>> state somewhere, in manual, or on the device "please run maintenance 
>>> procedure if it's year ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody 
>>> will do that anyway, and it seems foolish.
>>>
>>> People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive 
>>> maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial 
>>> electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical 
>>> instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's 
>>> too late and it's simply broken.
>>>
>>> I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2 
>>> years".
>>>
>>> Roman
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From modular at go2.pl  Fri Jun 24 15:47:51 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 15:47:51 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206240847220.22701@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206240847220.22701@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
Message-ID: <b393534f-7e6e-558f-8c01-93e79a64d374@go2.pl>

Noone wants to touch the "fuse" settings.
But then again, if this is the same kind of flash as rest of memory, and 
not any "high endurance" or whatever, with 10 times bigger transistors, 
then it's really dead end.

But do we have to erase it at all? It is to be rweritten with the same 
value so no need for erasing config bytes. I haven't planned to erase 
anything in the program memory either, just write the same content to 
pump up the charge in flash cells.

Roman


W dniu 2022-06-24 o?14:50, mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com pisze:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Roman Sowa wrote:
>> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with dsPIC, so
>> datasheet value seems real.
>>
>> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to do
>> that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always change the
> 
> The last page of flash program memory on the PIC24F parts I'm using cannot
> be rewritten under program control because it contains the configuration
> "fuse" settings.  Erase it as a first step in rewriting it, and you've
> bricked the part.  The only safe way to program it is through in-circuit
> programming with a separate programming device, not practical to implement
> as part of a product.  So one basically just has to accept that the
> lifetime of data in that page, and therefore of the part because that data
> is essential for boot-up, will be the lifetime of the initial programming.
> 
> Now, my understanding is that the configuration "fuses" are read to
> separate registers upon boot-up rather than being used directly from
> program memory.  So it seems plausible that maybe one could erase the last
> page, have the microcontroller continue running, and then rewrite the page
> and it would be okay, provided the entire operation happened without any
> interruption of power.  But I haven't attempted that and it's certainly
> not authorized by Microchip - their docs say never try to rewrite the last
> page under program control at all.  It would be very fragile with respect
> to to any power interruption during the attempt.
> 


From mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com  Fri Jun 24 16:04:25 2022
From: mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com (mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 10:04:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <b393534f-7e6e-558f-8c01-93e79a64d374@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206240847220.22701@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <b393534f-7e6e-558f-8c01-93e79a64d374@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206240956150.22701@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022, Roman Sowa wrote:
> Noone wants to touch the "fuse" settings.
> But then again, if this is the same kind of flash as rest of memory, and not
> any "high endurance" or whatever, with 10 times bigger transistors, then it's
> really dead end.

That was my thought - you don't want to change the fuse settings at run
time, but they are presumably as vulnerable to bit rot as anything else in
program memory, and the uC won't boot without them, so if you think you
need to refresh proram memory in general then you definitely need to
refresh those bits in particular.

> But do we have to erase it at all? It is to be rweritten with the same value
> so no need for erasing config bytes. I haven't planned to erase anything in
> the program memory either, just write the same content to pump up the charge
> in flash cells.

Rewriting locations without erasing them first is another thing the
Microchip documentation specifically says not to do.  Maybe it'll work.
It's plausible that it should work.  It might even be better for refresh
purposes than erasing first.  But I don't *know* that, and doing it would
seem to invalidate any promises about memory lifetime that the
manufacturer might have originally made.

-- 
Matthew Skala
North Coast Synthesis Ltd.


From sleepy_dog at gmx.de  Fri Jun 24 16:32:33 2022
From: sleepy_dog at gmx.de (sleepy_dog at gmx.de)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 16:32:33 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206240956150.22701@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206240847220.22701@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <b393534f-7e6e-558f-8c01-93e79a64d374@go2.pl>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206240956150.22701@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
Message-ID: <be3744c0-e2c5-41b4-1f5d-e140d69b6076@gmx.de>

Matthew Skala via Synth-diy:
> Rewriting locations without erasing them first is another thing the
> Microchip documentation specifically says not to do.  Maybe it'll work.
> It's plausible that it should work.  It might even be better for refresh
> purposes than erasing first.  But I don't *know* that, and doing it would
> seem to invalidate any promises about memory lifetime that the
> manufacturer might have originally made.
>

But those statements are meant for the normal case, in which you _want
different_ values in there, right? Not touching on the idea of "refresh".

Perhaps an inquiry should be made to them, asking it being relayed to
their experts on the topic (and not just grabbing some canned statements
from the usual stock of wisdom), for this scenario.
While I do wonder why this topic isn't long, widely known wisdom if it
is a good idea, ... well who knows.






From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Fri Jun 24 18:21:01 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 12:21:01 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <7e8d1d91-3f5d-bb0d-ec9a-66e9846e286c@mnet-online.de>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <CB8434D2-FD1C-4A13-AF22-B3F2FAC06D83@gmail.com>
 <16d35dc2-d261-9abd-7473-ee35b9668138@mnet-online.de>
 <1805128756.80903719.1655908070976.JavaMail.zimbra@wowway.com>
 <7e8d1d91-3f5d-bb0d-ec9a-66e9846e286c@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UAx-gpu7_YZhfBK=xXszQZ5Y_fC98mQN8bG3GdFvjhs6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Try the SDD-1200 trick with negative feedback.  The flanging effect gets
gnarly.

MC

On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 10:43 AM Florian Anwander <fanwander at mnet-online.de>
wrote:

> Hello Harry
>
> Am 22.06.22 um 16:27 schrieb Mr&MrsAccount:
>
> LOL.  That's what everyone else calls it as well !
>
> :-) I am glad, that I am like everyone else - even as a Germerman... (?
> Deads Don't Wear Plaid)
>
>  The downside is the lower you want the flange to go, the longer the
> initial delay needs to be.
>
> To my experience the sound gets to much chorus like (and shattering if
> used with feedback) before the allover delay of the signal is really
> recognizable.
>
> Florian
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From francesco.mulassano at gmail.com  Fri Jun 24 19:04:21 2022
From: francesco.mulassano at gmail.com (francesco mulassano)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 19:04:21 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Need some advice for Raspberry PICO + Micropython
Message-ID: <CA+R=RzBYSkRGLsrFKq6qqjSu4xpyNiKZo1uQz_6iKP4ZCq9KRQ@mail.gmail.com>

hi!
I need some advice for a project that i've started to learn RP2040 and
Micropython

HARDWARE
RP PICO
3 position switch
1 button
some leds
___

to save Pins, the switch is connected to a single ADC input and through a
comparator, i have 3 different voltage values that i use to identify the
switch position.

I use the switch to activate 3 different modes
MODE 0, MODE 1 and MODE 2

MODE 0
is a program selection function
when in this modality, the button serve to select the 'APP', indicated by a
led in a 3x3 matrix
selected app is lit.

MODE 1
in this mode, the selected app RUNS!

MODE 2
reserve

___

What can I do
- I do the detect of the MODE
- when I am in MODE 0, I call the appSelect function and with the button, i
cycle on the LEDs

*the problem*
-
*when I go back to MODE 1, it should leave the select mode and run the
selected APP but unfortunately the appSelect remains active*

___
The CODE

*main.py*

> from machine import ADC
> import utime
> import _thread
> import appselect_module
> mode = 0
>
> def readVoltage():
>         analogValue = ADC(26)
>         return analogValue.read_u16() / 65536 * 3.3
>
> def main():
>     global mode
>
>     while True:
>         if mode == 1:
>             print("MODE 1")
>
>             utime.sleep(2)
>         if mode == 2:
>             print("MODE 2")
>             utime.sleep(2)
>         if mode == 0:
>             print("MODE 0" + str(mode))
>             utime.sleep(1)
>             appselect_module.appSelect(mode)
>
> def mode():
>     global mode
>
>     while True:
>
>         reading = readVoltage()
>         print(reading)
>
>         if reading > 1 and reading < 3:
>             """
>             MODE 1: App run
>             """
>             print("MODE 1")
>             mode = 1
>             utime.sleep(1)
>         elif reading < 1:
>             """
>             MODE 2: Riserva
>             """
>             print("MODE 2")
>             mode = 2
>             utime.sleep(1)
>         else:
>             """
>             MODE 0: App selection
>             """
>             print("MODE 0 + " + str(0))
>             mode = 0
>             utime.sleep(1)
> _thread.start_new_thread(mode, ())
> while True:
>     main()


  *appselect_module.py*

> import machine
> import time
> import _thread
> from primitives.pushbutton import Pushbutton
> import uasyncio as asyncio
> import hal
> import functions
> prev_app = 5
> next_app = 0
> total_apps = 6
> mode = 0
> functions.allLedOff()
> machine.Pin(hal.leds[prev_app]).low()
> def readVoltage():
>         analogValue = ADC(26)
>         return analogValue.read_u16() / 65536 * 3.3
> def appSelect(mode):
>     global mode
>     global next_app
>     while mode == 0:
>         print("SONO IN APP SELECT")
>         def app_select():
>             global prev_app
>             global next_app
>             global total_apps
>             print("SONO IN APP SELECT e MODE " + mode)
>             machine.Pin(hal.leds[prev_app]).low() #program precedente
>
>             if prev_app == 0:
>                 machine.Pin(hal.leds[total_apps]).high()
>                 machine.Pin(hal.leds[0]).high()
>             else:
>                 machine.Pin(hal.leds[prev_app]).high()
>
>             next_app = prev_app + 1
>             machine.Pin(hal.leds[next_app]).low()
>             if next_app >= total_apps:
>                 prev_app = 0
>             else:
>                 prev_app = next_app
>
>         def app_confirm():
>             print("confirm")
>
>         def button():
>
>             pb = Pushbutton(hal.button)
>             pb.press_func(app_select, ())  # Callback on button press
>             pb.long_func(app_confirm, ())  # Callback on long press
>             while True:
>                 await asyncio.sleep(1)
>
>         try:
>             asyncio.run(button())
>         finally:
>             asyncio.new_event_loop()



  Thanks for the help!
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From synth at schmitzbits.de  Fri Jun 24 20:19:49 2022
From: synth at schmitzbits.de (=?UTF-8?Q?Ren=c3=a9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 20:19:49 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Need some advice for Raspberry PICO + Micropython
In-Reply-To: <CA+R=RzBYSkRGLsrFKq6qqjSu4xpyNiKZo1uQz_6iKP4ZCq9KRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+R=RzBYSkRGLsrFKq6qqjSu4xpyNiKZo1uQz_6iKP4ZCq9KRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fb81a044-85d5-7044-e8ec-4b0c2ec63b08@schmitzbits.de>

On 24.06.2022 19:04, francesco mulassano via Synth-diy wrote:
> hi!
> I need some advice for a project that i've started to learn RP2040 and 
> Micropython
>
> What can I do
> - I do the detect of the MODE
> - when I am in MODE 0, I call the appSelect function and with the 
> button, i cycle on the LEDs
>
> *the problem*
> - *when I go back to MODE 1, it should leave the select mode and run 
> the selected APP but unfortunately the appSelect remains active
> *


At first glance: In Mode 1 you never call the appSelect again, so you're 
stuck there.

I think you might want to call it in modes 1 and 2 as well. (Or take it 
out of the "if" and save the last read value, so you can only act if the 
value has changed.)

Best,

 ?Ren?


--
synth at schmitzbits.de
http://schmitzbits.de
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From synth at schmitzbits.de  Fri Jun 24 20:23:40 2022
From: synth at schmitzbits.de (=?UTF-8?Q?Ren=c3=a9_Schmitz?=)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 20:23:40 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Need some advice for Raspberry PICO + Micropython
In-Reply-To: <fb81a044-85d5-7044-e8ec-4b0c2ec63b08@schmitzbits.de>
References: <CA+R=RzBYSkRGLsrFKq6qqjSu4xpyNiKZo1uQz_6iKP4ZCq9KRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fb81a044-85d5-7044-e8ec-4b0c2ec63b08@schmitzbits.de>
Message-ID: <a4345cf5-a19d-b8ab-3dfb-24321dfe1f5d@schmitzbits.de>

On 24.06.2022 20:19, Ren? Schmitz wrote:
>
> At first glance: In Mode 1 you never call the appSelect again, so 
> you're stuck there.
>
> I think you might want to call it in modes 1 and 2 as well. (Or take 
> it out of the "if" and save the last read value, so you can only act 
> if the value has changed.)
>
And on second glance: In appSelect there is a "while mode == 0", 
preventing action in the other modes.


Best,

 ?Ren?


--
synth at schmitzbits.de
http://schmitzbits.de



From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sat Jun 25 07:18:42 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 22:18:42 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>

I don't know whether any company ever shipped a BBD-based product that clocked high enough to even get 20 kHz bandwidth, much less 500 kHz. Most BBD products have less than full bandwidth, such that even us old folks can hear the loss.

The MAX1326 ADC clocks up to 526 kS/s and is 14 bits.

The ADS7951 ADC clocks up to 1 MSPS and is 12 bits.

The THS5671 DAC clocks up to 125 MSPS and is also 14 bits.

I've long been curious about how much of a factor the continuously-variable sample rate of a BBD (or non-audio CODEC) is compared to the sound of a fixed-sample-rate digital design (even with software SRC to simulate variable sample rates). i.e. I wonder if the 'sound' of a BBD isn't its analog nature, or the sample rate, per se, but the fact that the sample rate changes are continuous.

Brian


On Jun 16, 2022, at 6:01 PM, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
> 
> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
> 
> Jay S.
> 
> On 6/16/2022 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.
>> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:
>> 
>> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf
>> 
>>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.
>> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than 3.3KHz!!
>> 
>> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
>> 
>> Tom




From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sat Jun 25 07:28:13 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 22:28:13 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <b4a6f303ebf541a097787b9a2938e932@futurehorizons.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <b4a6f303ebf541a097787b9a2938e932@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CC315A49-1C57-45A6-B98E-AE03818218D1@audiobanshee.com>

You don't even need the ARM processor.

Just wire up some address counters and simple digital logic to drive parallel memory R/W strobes from parallel ADC to parallel DAC. Granted, many converters these days are serial interface, but plenty of parallel interface converter chips still exist.

Vary the sample rate, instead of the memory size, in order to get different delay times. This mimics how the BBD works. A BBD always has a fixed amount of memory, but the clock rate varies. You can even change the address size of a digital delay to simulate swapping a SAD1024 with a SAD512 or SAD256.

You'll also only see a 1-sample latency (when desired) with the discrete DMA, whereas the ARM will almost surely need to buffer a number of samples before moving them around in memory (unless the ARM can literally address all of RAM with its DMA).

Lots of ways to skin this cat. Oops - wrong clich? ... I love cats!

Brian


On Jun 17, 2022, at 2:01 AM, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> BBD is only about 12 bits accuracy at best, and there's plenty of cheap ADC/DACs that can run 12 bits at many megahertz.    Pair one of these with a cheap ARM processor with lots of memory.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
> Sent: 17 June 2022 02:02
> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
> 
> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
> 
> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
> 
> Jay S.




From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sat Jun 25 07:31:44 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 22:31:44 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <56e175cb-f494-8522-96fd-93d05f7a66e6@go2.pl>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <b4a6f303ebf541a097787b9a2938e932@futurehorizons.com>
 <56e175cb-f494-8522-96fd-93d05f7a66e6@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <25FDC464-9FAC-4ED3-8156-994EF364005B@audiobanshee.com>

BBD is so limited that nearly all of the rest of the signal path is different in a BBD product compared to a digital delay.

I'd predict that if *all* of the signal path *except* the BBD chip itself were identical, then the magic would still be there. In other words, focusing on the BBD chip itself to get a 'sound' is probably not the real mojo. All the band limiting, companding, overdrive, and other factors probably account for the perceived differences.

Brian


On Jun 17, 2022, at 2:20 AM, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
> I may be wrong, but possibly prefering BBD over ADC-RAM-DAC is the same thing as tube audio amp vs. solid state one.
> Price, performance, ease of use, unobtainable parts - it all does not matter then.
> 
> Roman
> 
> W dniu 2022-06-17 o 11:01, Mike Bryant pisze:
>> BBD is only about 12 bits accuracy at best, and there's plenty of cheap ADC/DACs that can run 12 bits at many megahertz.    Pair one of these with a cheap ARM processor with lots of memory.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy
>> Sent: 17 June 2022 02:02
>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
>> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
>> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
>> Jay S.




From vladoman at gmail.com  Sat Jun 25 09:20:46 2022
From: vladoman at gmail.com (Vladimir Pantelic)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2022 09:20:46 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <CADBCB7Gi3AkiLrce-VSwv9-JZ6MpBia0TFnsE+aTe6Ump37fYg@mail.gmail.com>

exhibit A: Joranalogue Delay 1

quoting the manual:

11 HIGH FREQUENCY INPUT AND OUTPUT

While Delay 1 is normally driven by its own highfrequency (HF) VCO,
creating the ?clock? signal required to drive the bucket-brigade delay
chip, it is possible to use an external signal to override the internal
delay time control. Simply plug the signal into the HF input. For the best
results, this should be a square wave with a 50 % duty cycle and a voltage
swing of at least 0 to +5 V. The recommended frequency range is 20 kHz to 1
MHz. Below this range, longer delay times can be achieved, but the clock
will become audible as a high-pitch whine. Frequencies above this range
enable extremely short delay times, but with poor audio fidelity. To keep
noise and distortion to a minimum, a high-stability clock source is
required....



On Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 07:27 brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:

> I don't know whether any company ever shipped a BBD-based product that
> clocked high enough to even get 20 kHz bandwidth, much less 500 kHz. Most
> BBD products have less than full bandwidth, such that even us old folks can
> hear the loss.
>
>
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From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Sat Jun 25 12:25:38 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2022 11:25:38 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <jlivvt6opshnuo1lkpx8w194.1656152738336@email.android.com>

The BBD with fixed-length and variable- sample-rate does respond to modulation differently to a fixed-rate variable-length delay. There's a DAFX paper about this, and others too from what I can remember. Our very own Tom Wiltshire also did an excellent analysis of how a BBD responds to modulation. Although it stopped short of specifically discussing how to model this digitally in a fixed sample-rate system.

>From my experience it's not hard to model a short BBD with slow gentle modulation using a variable-length digital delay and fixed sample-rate. You can get very close to a typical BBD chorus effect with a fixed rate DSP with the right IIR filtering, etc. However...

It's the cases with a longer delay and deep, fast modulation that do the interesting stuff! This is harder to model digitally because the modulation changes whilst the signal is still shuffling through the buckets of the BBD! One paper suggested using a standard fixed rate digital delay-line for the audio alongside a "virtual BBD" that stored time-stamps of when the virtual bucket's samples were taken rather than actual audio data. The appropriate output samples could then be generated by using the time-stamps to extract values from the fixed-rate delay using interpolation. I haven't tried it but think I understand how it works!?

-Richie,

---- brianw wrote ----

>I don't know whether any company ever shipped a BBD-based product that clocked high enough to even get 20 kHz bandwidth, much less 500 kHz. Most BBD products have less than full bandwidth, such that even us old folks can hear the loss.
>
>The MAX1326 ADC clocks up to 526 kS/s and is 14 bits.
>
>The ADS7951 ADC clocks up to 1 MSPS and is 12 bits.
>
>The THS5671 DAC clocks up to 125 MSPS and is also 14 bits.
>
>I've long been curious about how much of a factor the continuously-variable sample rate of a BBD (or non-audio CODEC) is compared to the sound of a fixed-sample-rate digital design (even with software SRC to simulate variable sample rates). i.e. I wonder if the 'sound' of a BBD isn't its analog nature, or the sample rate, per se, but the fact that the sample rate changes are continuous.
>
>Brian
>
>
>On Jun 16, 2022, at 6:01 PM, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
>> 
>> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
>> 
>> Jay S.
>> 
>> On 6/16/2022 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>>> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.
>>> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:
>>> 
>>> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf
>>> 
>>>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.
>>> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than 3.3KHz!!
>>> 
>>> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
>>> 
>>> Tom
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk  Sat Jun 25 16:29:40 2022
From: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk (Richie Burnett)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2022 15:29:40 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <33b55a51-173f-fab1-84cd-534a7f248509@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <C8BD182A-9266-4E99-8A0D-FFC3DFFA0E94@electricdruid.net>
 <d1abed163c0628d3db880312a2ab8c35@richieburnett.co.uk>
 <33b55a51-173f-fab1-84cd-534a7f248509@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <2DE4BFB3F1224BE08B6A7995DB670227@DESKTOPUHPK2VO>

It was dsPIC30F series that the company I worked for used in their product. 
dsPIC30F series have 40 year minimum Flash retention and "Typical" of 100 
years on their datasheet if I remember correctly.  I know it is longer than 
the 2nd generation dsPIC33F models with the reduced geometry.  -Richie,




-----Original Message----- 
From: Roman Sowa
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 2:25 PM
To: rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk
Cc: Synth-diy
Subject: Re: [sdiy] a provoking question about time

Richie, it was dsPIC30F6011

Roman

W dniu 2022-06-23 o 14:18, rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk pisze:
> Roman are you talking about "bit rot" in the program Flash of dsPICs? Can 
> you remember the part number of the devices that you observed the issue 
> with?
>
> -Richie,
>
>
> On 2022-06-23 13:02, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>> Could you instead assume some "average number of boot-ups per year"
>> and then re-write the memory at start-up after the chip has booted up
>> X times?
>>
>> For some people who leave the thing in the cupboard for years, it
>> won't help them, but then again, if they pull it out of the cupboard
>> after 15 years and it doesn't work, they're not exactly going to be
>> surprised. For everyone else, it might be enough. For regular users,
>> it might write the memory more than necessary, but it wouldn't be
>> frequently enough to really shorten the lifespan.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Tom
>>
>> ==================
>>        Electric Druid
>> Synth & Stompbox DIY
>> ==================
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 23 Jun 2022, at 10:34, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers? 
>>> Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
>>> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with 
>>> dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
>>>
>>> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to 
>>> do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always 
>>> change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or supercapacitor 
>>> may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly state somewhere, in 
>>> manual, or on the device "please run maintenance procedure if it's year 
>>> ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will do that anyway, and it 
>>> seems foolish.
>>>
>>> People have no problem giving their cars every year for expensive 
>>> maintenance, but nearly nobody ever does that with non-industrial 
>>> electronic equipment. That goes sligltly better with musical 
>>> instruments, but anyway many of them go to service only after it's too 
>>> late and it's simply broken.
>>>
>>> I'm not very fond of general trend which is "buy new stuff every 2 
>>> years".
>>>
>>> Roman
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org 


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



From cheater00social at gmail.com  Sat Jun 25 18:50:30 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2022 18:50:30 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] How to replace an SMT part,
 a tutorial - desoldering surface mount components
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8VrPeC=3VHLBC6Jp=35N6gWS73D-UVvqeLXVGfH_GUfQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've recently written to someone about how to replace an SMT op amp,
and I thought it would be useful here, so here it is. It's obviously
useful for other SMT parts as well.

You'll find that desoldering an SMT op amp is way easier than a
through hole one! Here's what you do - you might be able to do it
using a normal temperature controlled iron, but I can't /guarantee/
results - best to get a T12 soldering iron, they are way better. First
try the process on a broken piece of SMT equipment, like a piece of
electronics junk you can get from the recycling...

1. Take some normal, leaded, solder, like 1mm thick.

2. Take AmTech NCC 599 TF Tacky Flux. Get the original from a
distributor listed on AmTech's website. It's the most commonly ripped
off flux ever, and the flux is the most crucial part of this whole
thing.

3. The flux comes in a syringe, without a plunger. Go to the pharmacy
and buy a normal syringe with a plunger of the same size. Take out the
plunger and insert it in the flux syringe. You'll notice it goes very
slowly because it traps air - that's why you make a hole in the
forward circular wall of the plunger.

4. Put a bunch of flux on all the pins of the op amp. It will melt
when you apply the soldering iron.

5. Melt some solder on all the pins. Make a huge blob that covers all
the pins of one side, and heat it up. Do the same with the other side.
Take the op amp off with the tweezers.

6. Clean off the solder on the board by picking it up with the iron
tip and then gently tapping it on the edge of a metal container to
drop the solder off the tip.

7. Make sure there's a little solder on all the traces. Not so they're
bridged, but a bunch is good, it's fine if it's more than you'll need.

8. Optional step. Put a wetted soldering iron to the undersides of the
op amp pins if the pins are difficult to solder due to oxides or age.

9. Put more flux on the pads of the pcb.

10. Put the op amp on and hold it down with an Orange Stick. You can
buy them on amazon or in places that sell manicure supplies. They're
thin wooden sticks that are used for removing skins from the nails at
a manicure shop. You can use anything else, but this is what I use.

11. heat up one side of the op amp until the pads melt and the pins
assume their position. Do the same with the other side, then come back
to the first side again. The op amp needs to be in the right spot.

12. There is going to be too much solder on the board.

13. Make sure there's enough flux on the board around the pins. Add
more if necessary.

14. If there's any bridging, lift off the solder like before.

15. Take some soldering wick (the kind that has flux in it), you can
buy it locally in small rolls that look like UFO saucers.

16. Unroll a little wick off the spool. It is compressed into a thin
"wire". Spread it out using your fingers like a chinese finger trap.
When it's spread out it can accept way more solder.

17. Clean your soldering iron tip on some brass wool so there isn't
any solder left on it.

18. Apply the wick to the solder joints and the soldering iron to the
wick on top of it. The wick should be between the tip and the joint.
Use the wick to suck up excessive solder, but don't overdo it.
Eventually you'll get a feel for how much solder you need. This step
is important to have a result that isn't only technically functional,
but also looks good and won't cause problems in the future - gloopy
solder joints turn into cold solder joints more easily than solder
joints with good looking fillets. A fillet is the solder between the
board and the component.

19. Take the board and clean it off using 96% or better alcohol. You
can get it in various volumes at the pharmacy, tell them you need it
for soldering flux removal at the pharmacy. 90% alcohol bought at the
general store is not good enough. The easiest way to do this is to
take some cotton buds and clean the pads off, repeatedly, until
there's nothing left. If you've burnt the flux it'll be more
difficult. A better way is to put it in a container and soak it. An
even better way is to put it in a ziploc bag filled with alcohol, then
put it in an ultrasonic cleaner bath filled with water. You do this so
you don't waste so much alcohol. Make sure the zip in the ziploc bag
is resting outside the edge of the ultrasonic bath, and there are no
animals in the same room as the ultrasonic generator. As a bonus you
can clean your glasses and various other things - a US bath is a great
thing to own. You'll only need a small one for guitar pedals.

20. After cleaning everything off and making sure there's no sticky or
slimy residue (with your fingers or with a piece of paper tissue),
clean the board off under running, high pressure, tap water. Some
people insist you should use distilled water here, they are wrong. The
water you're cleaning with here will be contaminated with whatever is
on the board already, including flux residues that remain even after
the alcohol clean.

21. Soak the thing in more alcohol again to displace the water, then
let it dry. Do it twice. This alcohol is a separate bunch of alcohol
that you keep re-using over and over, keep it in a separate bottle.
Normal store-bought alcohol is fine, you don't need the expensive 96%
stuff. However, the 96% stuff is nicer, because it doesn't have
bitterants and other additives that store bought alcohol has, so your
PCBs don't end up stinking.

22. Lubricate the potentiometers and switches using contact lube (not
contact cleaner). Move them back and forth a few times to spread the
lube around. Of course, if you suspect there was any corrosion when
you got the board, use contact cleaner first, then do the alcohol
soak, then do the contact lube. You need to make sure the time between
first rinsing the board with water and then dipping it in alcohol and
finally adding lubricant is minimal, to prevent oxidation.

23. If you can't make out the small parts, make sure you have a LOT of
light. Halogen light bulbs in a small desk light are OK, but the best
way to do things is to solder on a window sill with cast over light
coming in - cast over sunlight has properties that make our eyes
resolve details better than usually. If soldering extremely small
parts get a microscope like the kind Louis Rossmann uses or a Mantis
or instead just be severely short sighted.

24. You're done!


From mec.forumreader at gmail.com  Sun Jun 26 16:43:16 2022
From: mec.forumreader at gmail.com (Michael E Caloroso)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 10:43:16 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <jlivvt6opshnuo1lkpx8w194.1656152738336@email.android.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
 <jlivvt6opshnuo1lkpx8w194.1656152738336@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAAv6=UA2TUMrnkQ-jHhQrmR1T3DZoc_g+1VjBpcPJUzE+YGtzg@mail.gmail.com>

A BBD delay is never going to have stellar fidelity.

Well, neither are echos or modulated delay effects that occur in nature.
In a real room or in valleys, the reflections of the original signal is
going to be bandwidth limited and distorted.

My Yamaha E1010 sucks at modulated delays and the serial BBD architecture
(four at longest delay!) with heavy filtering hurt the fidelity of the
original signal.  But i exploit that "defect" for Haas effects - by panning
the direct signal hard right and panning the 15-25ms delayed signal hard
left, this creates a pseudo "stereo" image.  Haas effects work really well
with guitars as it creates a "hole" in the middle of the stereo field which
lets vocals be heard better without the mix getting overwhelmingly loud.
Since the delayed signal is sonically different (there's a REASON why
Yamaha put EQ controls on the E1010), the Haas effect sounds better than on
my other delay units, even digital.  It gets closer to a single guitar
sounding like two distinct guitars.  There's a REASON why Yamaha included a
direct output on the rear panel.

Many chorus algorithms bandwidth limit the delayed signal intentionally.
Frequencies below 100hz tend to muddy the chorus effect in a mix.  Limiting
upper frequencies can improve the effect, this is a subjective area based
on instrument (or vocals) and player preferences.

Imperfections >can< be a good thing.

MC

On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 6:29 AM Richie Burnett <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk>
wrote:

> The BBD with fixed-length and variable- sample-rate does respond to
> modulation differently to a fixed-rate variable-length delay. There's a
> DAFX paper about this, and others too from what I can remember. Our very
> own Tom Wiltshire also did an excellent analysis of how a BBD responds to
> modulation. Although it stopped short of specifically discussing how to
> model this digitally in a fixed sample-rate system.
>
> From my experience it's not hard to model a short BBD with slow gentle
> modulation using a variable-length digital delay and fixed sample-rate. You
> can get very close to a typical BBD chorus effect with a fixed rate DSP
> with the right IIR filtering, etc. However...
>
> It's the cases with a longer delay and deep, fast modulation that do the
> interesting stuff! This is harder to model digitally because the modulation
> changes whilst the signal is still shuffling through the buckets of the
> BBD! One paper suggested using a standard fixed rate digital delay-line for
> the audio alongside a "virtual BBD" that stored time-stamps of when the
> virtual bucket's samples were taken rather than actual audio data. The
> appropriate output samples could then be generated by using the time-stamps
> to extract values from the fixed-rate delay using interpolation. I haven't
> tried it but think I understand how it works!?
>
> -Richie,
>
> ---- brianw wrote ----
>
> >I don't know whether any company ever shipped a BBD-based product that
> clocked high enough to even get 20 kHz bandwidth, much less 500 kHz. Most
> BBD products have less than full bandwidth, such that even us old folks can
> hear the loss.
> >
> >The MAX1326 ADC clocks up to 526 kS/s and is 14 bits.
> >
> >The ADS7951 ADC clocks up to 1 MSPS and is 12 bits.
> >
> >The THS5671 DAC clocks up to 125 MSPS and is also 14 bits.
> >
> >I've long been curious about how much of a factor the
> continuously-variable sample rate of a BBD (or non-audio CODEC) is compared
> to the sound of a fixed-sample-rate digital design (even with software SRC
> to simulate variable sample rates). i.e. I wonder if the 'sound' of a BBD
> isn't its analog nature, or the sample rate, per se, but the fact that the
> sample rate changes are continuous.
> >
> >Brian
> >
> >
> >On Jun 16, 2022, at 6:01 PM, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is
> the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
> >>
> >> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher
> up and have better freq range.
> >>
> >> Jay S.
> >>
> >> On 6/16/2022 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> >>> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it
> again.
> >>> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip
> was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two
> delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details.
> Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the
> signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a
> differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded
> version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf
> >>>
> >>>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out
> everything about 10k.
> >>> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd
> of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than
> 3.3KHz!!
> >>>
> >>> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not
> realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Synth-diy mailing list
> >Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sun Jun 26 19:16:37 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 10:16:37 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <CADBCB7Gi3AkiLrce-VSwv9-JZ6MpBia0TFnsE+aTe6Ump37fYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
 <CADBCB7Gi3AkiLrce-VSwv9-JZ6MpBia0TFnsE+aTe6Ump37fYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F4AF07F-E86A-4729-A75E-7BE9AA25583A@audiobanshee.com>

I'm thinking of the vintage classics that so many modern companies are trying to recreate. Guitar pedals mostly, but also rack and built-in effects.

Now that you mention it, though, perhaps the classics always allowed really high clock rates, but the interesting settings were always the longer delays where the sample rate was really low and the frequency response poor.

Brian


On Jun 25, 2022, at 12:20 AM, Vladimir Pantelic via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> exhibit A: Joranalogue Delay 1
> 
> quoting the manual:
> 
> 11 HIGH FREQUENCY INPUT AND OUTPUT
> 
> While Delay 1 is normally driven by its own highfrequency (HF) VCO, creating the ?clock? signal required to drive the bucket-brigade delay chip, it is possible to use an external signal to override the internal delay time control. Simply plug the signal into the HF input. For the best results, this should be a square wave with a 50 % duty cycle and a voltage swing of at least 0 to +5 V. The recommended frequency range is 20 kHz to 1 MHz. Below this range, longer delay times can be achieved, but the clock will become audible as a high-pitch whine. Frequencies above this range enable extremely short delay times, but with poor audio fidelity. To keep noise and distortion to a minimum, a high-stability clock source is required....
> 
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 07:27 brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
>> I don't know whether any company ever shipped a BBD-based product that clocked high enough to even get 20 kHz bandwidth, much less 500 kHz. Most BBD products have less than full bandwidth, such that even us old folks can hear the loss.
> 



From Stromeko at nexgo.de  Sun Jun 26 20:27:19 2022
From: Stromeko at nexgo.de (ASSI)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 20:27:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>

On Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2022 11:34:04 CEST Roman Sowa wrote:
> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers?

There's usually something else in the system that will fail years before that 
happens?

> Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with
> dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.

If it wasn't programmed with their "professional" programmer, the datasheet 
values are void and even then there are other failure modes that affect memory 
integrity that produce similar lifetime / failure rate profiles.

> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to
> do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always
> change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or supercapacitor
> may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly state somewhere, in
> manual, or on the device "please run maintenance procedure if it's year
> ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will do that anyway, and it
> seems foolish.

If you are thinking of overwriting a Flash block with the same data (no 
erase), all you're gonna do is to slowly destroy the data via program disturb 
(which is also data-dependent).  Flash is meant to be erased by blocks and 
programmed by word-lines, each cell just once per cycle.

If the Flash in question offers a margin read operation: use that after 
programming to weed out parts that did not program well or had latent defects.  
You can sometimes do that even during normal operation (say on boot), i.e. 
compare a normal and a margin read to get early warning of impending data 
loss.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf rackAttack:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds






From davebr at modularsynthesis.com  Sun Jun 26 21:19:04 2022
From: davebr at modularsynthesis.com (Dave Brown)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:19:04 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
Message-ID: <007001d88991$9a9b1e70$cfd15b50$@modularsynthesis.com>

I don?t remember the retention for 2708 eproms, but I thought it was something like 10 years. In 1976 I built a musical doorbell using an 8080/2708. It was modelled after the music program that ran on a Sol-20. I could create new songs and upload them to my doorbell. While I can no longer do that, it does still play the default music selection. It?s been running continuously now for 46 years. I?ve only had to do two repairs on it. One was the capacitor in the -5V converter went bad. The other is the 8080 died. The 2708 is still running with the original program. It has sat in a tight loop waiting for someone to press the doorbell button. For the last nearly four decades I?ve lived remotely so it doesn?t get pressed but maybe 2/month. I calculated once how many loops that processor has gone through but I forget now. I know this isn?t related to the flash memory, but it?s a testament to the retention of at least this 2708.


Dave

 

From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of ASSI
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 11:27 AM
To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
Subject: Re: [sdiy] a provoking question about time

 

On Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2022 11:34:04 CEST Roman Sowa wrote: > what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers? There's usually something else in the system that will fail years 

   <https://protection.inkyphishfence.com/report?id=bmV0b3JnZnQ3MzQ2OTM5L2RhdmVickBtb2R1bGFyc3ludGhlc2lzLmNvbS9lYWNhMzk0ZTQwODAwY2JkYjIxMmYzZjlkN2JmMjRiYS8xNjU2MjY4NDgzLjU=#key=7dfd6727fcb28248ad98bcd2b9f57d24> Report This Email   <https://www.inky.com/banner-faq> FAQ   <https://www.inky.com/protection-by-inky> GoDaddy Advanced Email Security, Powered by INKY 

 

On Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2022 11:34:04 CEST Roman Sowa wrote:

> what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers?

 

There's usually something else in the system that will fail years before that 

happens?

 

> Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.

> I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with

> dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.

 

If it wasn't programmed with their "professional" programmer, the datasheet 

values are void and even then there are other failure modes that affect memory 

integrity that produce similar lifetime / failure rate profiles.

 

> One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to

> do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always

> change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or supercapacitor

> may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly state somewhere, in

> manual, or on the device "please run maintenance procedure if it's year

> ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will do that anyway, and it

> seems foolish.

 

If you are thinking of overwriting a Flash block with the same data (no 

erase), all you're gonna do is to slowly destroy the data via program disturb 

(which is also data-dependent).  Flash is meant to be erased by blocks and 

programmed by word-lines, each cell just once per cycle.

 

If the Flash in question offers a margin read operation: use that after 

programming to weed out parts that did not program well or had latent defects.  

You can sometimes do that even during normal operation (say on boot), i.e. 

compare a normal and a margin read to get early warning of impending data 

loss.

 

 

Regards,

Achim.

-- 

+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

 

Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf rackAttack:

http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds <https://shared.outlook.inky.com/link?domain=Synth.Stromeko.net&t=h.eJwtT0sOgjAQvYqpW9MCLQisWHgDFq5bZirG0jFt8RPj3aWJu5e8_4etwbF-x-aU7r0Q49unmY8p0II34h6TONHTO9IQ-ZwWtz9rBxTsSKuHyA47dsv2TUjhYtNRqqaTnQD9QBOGhWB1OsScivEa-USLQD1p2SlURVsUkwFTlZWVtoOjsZUyWpRN3VRNq1rJ69yAuSH-Nw0eXxfigJmBjfGrcxtM-Ub5_QHmakML.MEUCIFNny-hN5c3ZkvEgx3XjMPvo3poQsiUJsGMaQ_Rphp32AiEAoFTzNaYjmjO-_H8j07UrD5cxmralWqWT_67hjer-vlg> 

 

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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sun Jun 26 21:54:52 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:54:52 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
Message-ID: <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>

Another issue to think about with regard to re-programming Flash in the field is that you really need a bootloader to make this safe.

A bootloader is typically stored in ROM inside the CPU, and is capable of reading at least two alternate boot images. If one firmware image is corrupted due to power loss during programming, the other image will still boot. Once booted, the user can re-attempt the firmware upgrade and hope that power won't be interrupted. Some bootloaders use dual devices so that the backup device is not being erased while the updated device is being upgraded.

I've seen products with three levels of boot. The first bootloader cannot be changed in the field without special hardware. The second bootloader can be upgraded by the first bootloader, in case bugs are found in the second bootloader. The third boot stage is the actual firmware for the product. This degree of bootloader may only be necessary for chips that do not have a first-stage bootloader in ROM. In the example I'm thinking of, there actually wasn't a CPU, but an FPGA with a virtual processor, so that probably complicated the bootloader immensely.

It's a little more difficult to do a full bootloader with a PIC, since everything is in the same on-board Flash device. There are examples, though, where a region of Flash is designated as read-only, but that doesn't help with the issue of bit rot. I've done a lot of design work with PIC bootloaders, but never in a way that actually addressed bit rot (or the 'fuse' area).


If longevity is crucial, then you probably have to select a CPU with a ROM bootloader. That way, the only part of the firmware that doesn't get updated is also not going to ever fail due to bit rot. This class of CPU chips usually boot from an external device, and then you probably have the option of High Reliability (eMMC) technologies that alleviate bit rot.

Brian




From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Sun Jun 26 22:11:01 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 13:11:01 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <201f3ec9-9ed6-8ebb-5cfb-2b65da84a94f@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <7a26858c-a862-187d-c5d7-6692a119b2ad@gmx.de>
 <201f3ec9-9ed6-8ebb-5cfb-2b65da84a94f@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <01C88CC0-F7CE-47FC-B20B-DA9B5AFF56A7@audiobanshee.com>



On Jun 24, 2022, at 5:38 AM, Roman Sowa <modular at go2.pl> wrote:
> Brian W said some valid points about proper programmer and robust eMMC.
> Why would you assume that I'm not using ICD3 (and ICD2 before that)?

Last time I brought up the topic of ICD3 in a random online forum, some people were violently opposed to spending $300 on a programmer. I must have been hanging out in the wrong online fora. ;-)  I just thought it was important to stress the use of proper programming tools in case folks were only familiar with the cheap debugger/programmers. Nothing personal !


> And I'd love to sacrifice part of memory for error correction, but PICs do not provide anything to do that.

Exactly, Your question makes me wonder whether designing with PIC is appropriate for a product that is intended to last a long time. Compared to the range of features available in other processors, the PIC seems rather limited. Of course, that affects the price, so longevity may be another tradeoff between cost and quality.

Just for completeness, it's worth considering that error correction has a down side - at least when it's handled by the memory device itself. Modern eMMC chips that have internal firmware, error correction, wear leveling, periodic re-writes of aging data, and Secure Boot are potentially susceptible to malware or security flaws in the memory chip itself. A simple Flash device without its own firmware is "more secure" in the sense that it's not running code. A modern eMMC can solve a lot of problems, where compatible, but that comes with a cost of being vulnerable to an additional attack vector. ... if that's something you're concerned about.


> Booting from external memory of any kind is something I considered too, but I don't think I will migrate to higher end ARM chips ever.

I am not a fan of the higher end ARM Cortex-A processors - at least not for the kinds of products that I enjoy designing - but I have worked with them enough to notice that they have very robust boot and upgrade features. These high-end chips are probably overkill for a lot of products that they might be used in. But it's good to be familiar with what they're capable of.

I tend to prefer the ARM Cortex-M processors because they feel appropriately sized for the designs I work on. However, even the Cortex-M is limited with regard to support for external memory (at least the models I've used).


> Although I've used booting from external memory in the past, that was the only way to go with DSP.


Yes. I've designed with the TMS320 that has a ROM bootloader supporting several different types of external memory interfacing. Obviously, DSP is not the correct choice for every design, but the boot model is a good one to reference.

Brian




From hannes.janetzek at gmail.com  Sun Jun 26 22:25:22 2022
From: hannes.janetzek at gmail.com (hannes.janetzek at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 22:25:22 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UA2TUMrnkQ-jHhQrmR1T3DZoc_g+1VjBpcPJUzE+YGtzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
 <jlivvt6opshnuo1lkpx8w194.1656152738336@email.android.com>
 <CAAv6=UA2TUMrnkQ-jHhQrmR1T3DZoc_g+1VjBpcPJUzE+YGtzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+jkZB2wFMVDg=mWBxxvEWDofu_w3y9_JAeDYXMei8fxbzL-_g@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone! - it's my first post to this list. I'm also quite new to
learning electronics from studying old hardware. I still recall BBDs were
one of the things that quite stunned me when first encoutering them in the
Casio CT-5000 ensemble effect - from this year :)

The most recent finding in this regards is the digital reverb of the
Technics SX-E66 and SX-G7 which uses 16 M5225L chips for
modulation/demodulation with 8KB of ram. Schematic and diagram is here
https://imgur.com/a/n4S4JsF https://imgur.com/a/HYFyNbU if anyone is
curious. This chip is only mentioned by one patent (Low-pitched sound
creator) and seems to do 'adaptive differential modulation'.
I haven't investigated this module in detail yet but was wondering if
someone knows this chip and if this technique is used elsewhere. (Just
posting this here since similar approaches have been suggested and it's
appears to be ok to extend on the original topic)

Best
Hannes

Am So., 26. Juni 2022 um 16:46 Uhr schrieb Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org>:

> A BBD delay is never going to have stellar fidelity.
>
> Well, neither are echos or modulated delay effects that occur in nature.
> In a real room or in valleys, the reflections of the original signal is
> going to be bandwidth limited and distorted.
>
> My Yamaha E1010 sucks at modulated delays and the serial BBD architecture
> (four at longest delay!) with heavy filtering hurt the fidelity of the
> original signal.  But i exploit that "defect" for Haas effects - by panning
> the direct signal hard right and panning the 15-25ms delayed signal hard
> left, this creates a pseudo "stereo" image.  Haas effects work really well
> with guitars as it creates a "hole" in the middle of the stereo field which
> lets vocals be heard better without the mix getting overwhelmingly loud.
> Since the delayed signal is sonically different (there's a REASON why
> Yamaha put EQ controls on the E1010), the Haas effect sounds better than on
> my other delay units, even digital.  It gets closer to a single guitar
> sounding like two distinct guitars.  There's a REASON why Yamaha included a
> direct output on the rear panel.
>
> Many chorus algorithms bandwidth limit the delayed signal intentionally.
> Frequencies below 100hz tend to muddy the chorus effect in a mix.  Limiting
> upper frequencies can improve the effect, this is a subjective area based
> on instrument (or vocals) and player preferences.
>
> Imperfections >can< be a good thing.
>
> MC
>
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 6:29 AM Richie Burnett <
> rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The BBD with fixed-length and variable- sample-rate does respond to
>> modulation differently to a fixed-rate variable-length delay. There's a
>> DAFX paper about this, and others too from what I can remember. Our very
>> own Tom Wiltshire also did an excellent analysis of how a BBD responds to
>> modulation. Although it stopped short of specifically discussing how to
>> model this digitally in a fixed sample-rate system.
>>
>> From my experience it's not hard to model a short BBD with slow gentle
>> modulation using a variable-length digital delay and fixed sample-rate. You
>> can get very close to a typical BBD chorus effect with a fixed rate DSP
>> with the right IIR filtering, etc. However...
>>
>> It's the cases with a longer delay and deep, fast modulation that do the
>> interesting stuff! This is harder to model digitally because the modulation
>> changes whilst the signal is still shuffling through the buckets of the
>> BBD! One paper suggested using a standard fixed rate digital delay-line for
>> the audio alongside a "virtual BBD" that stored time-stamps of when the
>> virtual bucket's samples were taken rather than actual audio data. The
>> appropriate output samples could then be generated by using the time-stamps
>> to extract values from the fixed-rate delay using interpolation. I haven't
>> tried it but think I understand how it works!?
>>
>> -Richie,
>>
>> ---- brianw wrote ----
>>
>> >I don't know whether any company ever shipped a BBD-based product that
>> clocked high enough to even get 20 kHz bandwidth, much less 500 kHz. Most
>> BBD products have less than full bandwidth, such that even us old folks can
>> hear the loss.
>> >
>> >The MAX1326 ADC clocks up to 526 kS/s and is 14 bits.
>> >
>> >The ADS7951 ADC clocks up to 1 MSPS and is 12 bits.
>> >
>> >The THS5671 DAC clocks up to 125 MSPS and is also 14 bits.
>> >
>> >I've long been curious about how much of a factor the
>> continuously-variable sample rate of a BBD (or non-audio CODEC) is compared
>> to the sound of a fixed-sample-rate digital design (even with software SRC
>> to simulate variable sample rates). i.e. I wonder if the 'sound' of a BBD
>> isn't its analog nature, or the sample rate, per se, but the fact that the
>> sample rate changes are continuous.
>> >
>> >Brian
>> >
>> >
>> >On Jun 16, 2022, at 6:01 PM, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <
>> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> >> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is
>> the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
>> >>
>> >> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher
>> up and have better freq range.
>> >>
>> >> Jay S.
>> >>
>> >> On 6/16/2022 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>> >>> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it
>> again.
>> >>> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That
>> chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use
>> the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the
>> details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in
>> the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it
>> recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an
>> "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various
>> possibilities:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf
>> >>>
>> >>>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out
>> everything about 10k.
>> >>> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd
>> of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than
>> 3.3KHz!!
>> >>>
>> >>> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not
>> realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
>> >>>
>> >>> Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Synth-diy mailing list
>> >Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> >http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Sun Jun 26 22:36:02 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 20:36:02 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <CA+jkZB2wFMVDg=mWBxxvEWDofu_w3y9_JAeDYXMei8fxbzL-_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2113562307.2476181.1655335024986@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
 <jlivvt6opshnuo1lkpx8w194.1656152738336@email.android.com>
 <CAAv6=UA2TUMrnkQ-jHhQrmR1T3DZoc_g+1VjBpcPJUzE+YGtzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+jkZB2wFMVDg=mWBxxvEWDofu_w3y9_JAeDYXMei8fxbzL-_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4f5d158ea12843cd9f755c89affb0240@futurehorizons.com>

Hello Hannes

'adaptive differential modulation' or ADPCM was the original attempt at reducing the bit size of digitised audio compared with the PCM used first in the phone system and the in CDs.   It used roughly half the memory for the same quality, or you could reduce further if you wish.  There were numerous devices using this technique, and I recall one in either Wireless World or Practical Electronics in the early 80s.


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of hannes.janetzek--- via Synth-diy
Sent: 26 June 2022 21:25
To: SDIY
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency

Hello everyone! - it's my first post to this list. I'm also quite new to learning electronics from studying old hardware. I still recall BBDs were one of the things that quite stunned me when first encoutering them in the Casio CT-5000 ensemble effect - from this year :)

The most recent finding in this regards is the digital reverb of the Technics SX-E66 and SX-G7 which uses 16 M5225L chips for modulation/demodulation with 8KB of ram. Schematic and diagram is here https://imgur.com/a/n4S4JsF https://imgur.com/a/HYFyNbU if anyone is curious. This chip is only mentioned by one patent (Low-pitched sound creator) and seems to do 'adaptive differential modulation'.
I haven't investigated this module in detail yet but was wondering if someone knows this chip and if this technique is used elsewhere. (Just posting this here since similar approaches have been suggested and it's appears to be ok to extend on the original topic)

Best
Hannes

Am So., 26. Juni 2022 um 16:46 Uhr schrieb Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>:
A BBD delay is never going to have stellar fidelity.

Well, neither are echos or modulated delay effects that occur in nature.  In a real room or in valleys, the reflections of the original signal is going to be bandwidth limited and distorted.

My Yamaha E1010 sucks at modulated delays and the serial BBD architecture (four at longest delay!) with heavy filtering hurt the fidelity of the original signal.  But i exploit that "defect" for Haas effects - by panning the direct signal hard right and panning the 15-25ms delayed signal hard left, this creates a pseudo "stereo" image.  Haas effects work really well with guitars as it creates a "hole" in the middle of the stereo field which lets vocals be heard better without the mix getting overwhelmingly loud.  Since the delayed signal is sonically different (there's a REASON why Yamaha put EQ controls on the E1010), the Haas effect sounds better than on my other delay units, even digital.  It gets closer to a single guitar sounding like two distinct guitars.  There's a REASON why Yamaha included a direct output on the rear panel.

Many chorus algorithms bandwidth limit the delayed signal intentionally.  Frequencies below 100hz tend to muddy the chorus effect in a mix.  Limiting upper frequencies can improve the effect, this is a subjective area based on instrument (or vocals) and player preferences.

Imperfections >can< be a good thing.

MC

On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 6:29 AM Richie Burnett <rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk<mailto:rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk>> wrote:
The BBD with fixed-length and variable- sample-rate does respond to modulation differently to a fixed-rate variable-length delay. There's a DAFX paper about this, and others too from what I can remember. Our very own Tom Wiltshire also did an excellent analysis of how a BBD responds to modulation. Although it stopped short of specifically discussing how to model this digitally in a fixed sample-rate system.

From my experience it's not hard to model a short BBD with slow gentle modulation using a variable-length digital delay and fixed sample-rate. You can get very close to a typical BBD chorus effect with a fixed rate DSP with the right IIR filtering, etc. However...

It's the cases with a longer delay and deep, fast modulation that do the interesting stuff! This is harder to model digitally because the modulation changes whilst the signal is still shuffling through the buckets of the BBD! One paper suggested using a standard fixed rate digital delay-line for the audio alongside a "virtual BBD" that stored time-stamps of when the virtual bucket's samples were taken rather than actual audio data. The appropriate output samples could then be generated by using the time-stamps to extract values from the fixed-rate delay using interpolation. I haven't tried it but think I understand how it works!?

-Richie,

---- brianw wrote ----

>I don't know whether any company ever shipped a BBD-based product that clocked high enough to even get 20 kHz bandwidth, much less 500 kHz. Most BBD products have less than full bandwidth, such that even us old folks can hear the loss.
>
>The MAX1326 ADC clocks up to 526 kS/s and is 14 bits.
>
>The ADS7951 ADC clocks up to 1 MSPS and is 12 bits.
>
>The THS5671 DAC clocks up to 125 MSPS and is also 14 bits.
>
>I've long been curious about how much of a factor the continuously-variable sample rate of a BBD (or non-audio CODEC) is compared to the sound of a fixed-sample-rate digital design (even with software SRC to simulate variable sample rates). i.e. I wonder if the 'sound' of a BBD isn't its analog nature, or the sample rate, per se, but the fact that the sample rate changes are continuous.
>
>Brian
>
>
>On Jun 16, 2022, at 6:01 PM, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>> Isn't one of the advantages of using a BBD over a digital solution is the clocking can go to 500 KHz to 1MHz?
>>
>> So depending on the clock freq you can get the aliasing filters higher up and have better freq range.
>>
>> Jay S.
>>
>> On 6/16/2022 4:38 PM, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>>> On 16 Jun 2022, at 23:11, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
>>>> You could add more BBDs in parallel and sum the outputs to reduce it again.
>>> I think this is what's referred to in the SAD1024 datasheet. That chip was actually a dual 512-stage device, and one suggestion was to use the two delay lines in parallel for reduced noise. I don't remember the details. Could be that simply summing the signals gives you a +6dB boost in the signal, but not so much in the noise, or it could be that it recommended a differential signal. Can't remember, sorry. I found an "Archer"-branded version of the datasheet here which shows various possibilities:
>>>
>>> http://www.pmerecords.com/Docs/Archer_SAD-1024_Tech_Data.pdf
>>>
>>>> If lowest clock speed is 20k, you really need to be filtering out everything about 10k.
>>> BBD datasheets generally recommend a conservative bandwidth of 1/3rd of the clock frequency, so 20K would be 6.67KHz. Poor, but much better than 3.3KHz!!
>>>
>>> I totally agree that 18KHz filtering with 20KHz clock is not realistic. No practical filter is that sharp.
>>>
>>> Tom
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Synth-diy mailing list
>Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>

_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
_______________________________________________
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Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
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From jschwich53 at comcast.net  Sun Jun 26 22:41:58 2022
From: jschwich53 at comcast.net (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 13:41:58 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <7ec17daa-6c6c-cde8-c8f7-64aa39ee6bf9@comcast.net>

Everyone,

On the ICD3 cost I'd probably say that they were hobbyists or amateurs 
just being cheap and not doing real commercial work. I find it pretty 
funny reading about people buying 2-3 cheap programmers that don't work 
spending more money than the proper one.

Brian's other info is pretty good.

Couple of other things.

A number of projects I've worked on include enough Flash for dual 
images. Usually you program the new image into the unused memory space, 
validate it and then switch the boot pointer to it. Normally you 
wouldn't do this to the bootloader, hopefully you coded it good enough 
but have also used the previous technique for them too.

If you are doing a critical system or secure system you will have to go 
above and beyond to deal with those issues.

Question to ask also is the technology to update the firmware going to 
exist in 20 years and I'm including USB in that statement?

Jay S.

On 6/26/2022 12:54 PM, brianw wrote:

Brian W said some valid points about proper programmer and robust eMMC.
Why would you assume that I'm not using ICD3 (and ICD2 before that)?

Last time I brought up the topic of ICD3 in a random online forum, some people were violently opposed to spending $300 on a programmer. I must have been hanging out in the wrong online fora.   I just thought it was important to stress the use of proper programming tools in case folks were only familiar with the cheap debugger/programmers. Nothing personal !


> Another issue to think about with regard to re-programming Flash in the field is that you really need a bootloader to make this safe.
>
> A bootloader is typically stored in ROM inside the CPU, and is capable of reading at least two alternate boot images. If one firmware image is corrupted due to power loss during programming, the other image will still boot. Once booted, the user can re-attempt the firmware upgrade and hope that power won't be interrupted. Some bootloaders use dual devices so that the backup device is not being erased while the updated device is being upgraded.
>
> I've seen products with three levels of boot. The first bootloader cannot be changed in the field without special hardware. The second bootloader can be upgraded by the first bootloader, in case bugs are found in the second bootloader. The third boot stage is the actual firmware for the product. This degree of bootloader may only be necessary for chips that do not have a first-stage bootloader in ROM. In the example I'm thinking of, there actually wasn't a CPU, but an FPGA with a virtual processor, so that probably complicated the bootloader immensely.
>
> It's a little more difficult to do a full bootloader with a PIC, since everything is in the same on-board Flash device. There are examples, though, where a region of Flash is designated as read-only, but that doesn't help with the issue of bit rot. I've done a lot of design work with PIC bootloaders, but never in a way that actually addressed bit rot (or the 'fuse' area).
>
>
> If longevity is crucial, then you probably have to select a CPU with a ROM bootloader. That way, the only part of the firmware that doesn't get updated is also not going to ever fail due to bit rot. This class of CPU chips usually boot from an external device, and then you probably have the option of High Reliability (eMMC) technologies that alleviate bit rot.
>
> Brian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


From jschwich53 at comcast.net  Sun Jun 26 23:16:19 2022
From: jschwich53 at comcast.net (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 14:16:19 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261651450.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
 <7ec17daa-6c6c-cde8-c8f7-64aa39ee6bf9@comcast.net>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261651450.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
Message-ID: <18b18e27-c2b1-46de-5a7e-6848570a95ea@comcast.net>

Really wasn't thinking about building the firmware. More about the 
hardware to program the device, but that is a good point.

If you do this in real life you archive all the software used, including 
the OS. You're a fucking idiot if you don't. That was one of the first 
things I was programmed to do when I started doing this type of work. 
Some places I've worked you pull the hard drive and archive it too. Even 
so you still might not have the HW to run all the software on. Hopefully 
at least there will be a compiler, linker and programmer that can build 
and burn the code.

Jay S.

On 6/26/2022 1:53 PM, mskala at ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2022, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy wrote:
>> If you are doing a critical system or secure system you will have to go above
>> and beyond to deal with those issues.
>>
>> Question to ask also is the technology to update the firmware going to exist
>> in 20 years and I'm including USB in that statement?
> If you're serious about designing for a multi-decade lifetime, then you
> release the source code and when necessary someone can port it to whatever
> platform is current in the future.
>


From mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com  Sun Jun 26 23:28:36 2022
From: mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com (mskala at northcoastsynthesis.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 17:28:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <18b18e27-c2b1-46de-5a7e-6848570a95ea@comcast.net>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
 <7ec17daa-6c6c-cde8-c8f7-64aa39ee6bf9@comcast.net>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261651450.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <18b18e27-c2b1-46de-5a7e-6848570a95ea@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261727030.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy wrote:
> If you do this in real life you archive all the software used, including the
> OS. You're a fucking idiot if you don't. That was one of the first things I
> was programmed to do when I started doing this type of work. Some places I've
> worked you pull the hard drive and archive it too. Even so you still might not

This is another good reason to be wary of development tools that want
network access to phone home; limited-time license keys mediated by
license servers; and automatic updates.

-- 
Matthew Skala
North Coast Synthesis Ltd.


From davebr at modularsynthesis.com  Mon Jun 27 00:14:51 2022
From: davebr at modularsynthesis.com (Dave Brown)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 15:14:51 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261727030.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
 <7ec17daa-6c6c-cde8-c8f7-64aa39ee6bf9@comcast.net>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261651450.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <18b18e27-c2b1-46de-5a7e-6848570a95ea@comcast.net>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261727030.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
Message-ID: <000b01d889aa$28c4a050$7a4de0f0$@modularsynthesis.com>

I remember one day looking at my DEC 9 track tape thinking that archive
wasn't going to be useful any more. OF course, by then it didn't matter .

 

Dave

 

From: Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> On Behalf Of Matthew Skala
via Synth-diy
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 2:29 PM
To: Jay Schwichtenberg <jschwich53 at comcast.net>
Cc: Subject: Re: [sdiy] a provoking question about time

 

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy wrote: > If you do
this in real life you archive all the software used, including the > OS.
You're a fucking idiot if you don't. That was one of t 


External ( <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org> synth-diy at synth-diy.org) 

 
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2022, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy wrote:

> If you do this in real life you archive all the software used, including
the

> OS. You're a fucking idiot if you don't. That was one of the first things
I

> was programmed to do when I started doing this type of work. Some places
I've

> worked you pull the hard drive and archive it too. Even so you still might
not

 

This is another good reason to be wary of development tools that want

network access to phone home; limited-time license keys mediated by

license servers; and automatic updates.

 

-- 

Matthew Skala

North Coast Synthesis Ltd.

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From jschwich53 at comcast.net  Mon Jun 27 01:34:47 2022
From: jschwich53 at comcast.net (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:34:47 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <000b01d889aa$28c4a050$7a4de0f0$@modularsynthesis.com>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
 <7ec17daa-6c6c-cde8-c8f7-64aa39ee6bf9@comcast.net>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261651450.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <18b18e27-c2b1-46de-5a7e-6848570a95ea@comcast.net>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261727030.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <000b01d889aa$28c4a050$7a4de0f0$@modularsynthesis.com>
Message-ID: <a3d9cf00-8f00-0765-3de4-198a8c6820e3@comcast.net>

Dave,

When I got out of college (OSU) there wasn't a lot of software jobs in 
Oregon other than business/bank stuff. So I worked in field service for 
3 years for DEC, Harris CSD and Tektronix terminals in Wilsonville. Tape 
drives were the worse, then disk drives and the old drum line printers.

Saw a documentary on the Library of Congress where they were just doing 
the initial archival going from analog to digital. That was going to 
take a long time to get the initial pass done. Once done with that they 
figured they would start moving from the old media to the newest media 
and that would keep them busy forever.

At one time there was a lot of information from the early space missions 
that was archived and never looked at. When they wanted to look at it 
the hardware to do it was long gone. Someone bought a bunch of the tape 
drives they used (which were some odd format, not 8 or 9 track) and 
refurbished them to get the data off.

When I worked at Tek as a contractor I had to be petty anal about 
archival because when I was gone someone else would have to do 
maintenance on the code. Also if I came back I would of forgotten the 
details of what I had done.

Stay cool this weekend.
Jay S.

On 6/26/2022 3:14 PM, Dave Brown wrote:
>
> I remember one day looking at my DEC 9 track tape thinking that 
> archive wasn?t going to be useful any more. OF course, by then it 
> didn?t matter ?
>
> Dave
>
> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> *On Behalf Of 
> *Matthew Skala via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 26, 2022 2:29 PM
> *To:* Jay Schwichtenberg <jschwich53 at comcast.net>
> *Cc:* *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
>
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2022, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy wrote:
>
> > If you do this in real life you archive all the software used, 
> including the
>
> > OS. You're a fucking idiot if you don't. That was one of the first 
> things I
>
> > was programmed to do when I started doing this type of work. Some 
> places I've
>
> > worked you pull the hard drive and archive it too. Even so you still 
> might not
>
> This is another good reason to be wary of development tools that want
>
> network access to phone home; limited-time license keys mediated by
>
> license servers; and automatic updates.
>
> -- 
>
> Matthew Skala
>
> North Coast Synthesis Ltd.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Synth-diy mailing list
>
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Mon Jun 27 06:24:29 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 21:24:29 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <18b18e27-c2b1-46de-5a7e-6848570a95ea@comcast.net>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
 <7ec17daa-6c6c-cde8-c8f7-64aa39ee6bf9@comcast.net>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2206261651450.17115@kharasan.bonobo-conspiracy.ca>
 <18b18e27-c2b1-46de-5a7e-6848570a95ea@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8BAD6B36-F251-4573-B6F2-62AEAFC31EF6@audiobanshee.com>

I have source code repositories that go back decades with NeXTstep, Mac OS, and various firmware projects. cvs repo goes back to 1991, and subversion goes back almost as far.

That said, firmware for dedicated hardware is rarely portable to new platforms. A lot of synthesizer hardware is so specific that you couldn't run the firmware unless you also recreated all of the hardware.

For that reason, I also have schematics, PCB layouts, design documents and notes archived in revision control as well.

It's not enough to back up after things are done: I really rely on having revision control so I can get out of trouble with firmware changes cause things to stop working. It's great to be able to say, "Well, it was working two days ago," and be able to extract all of the source as it existed on a specific date.

Personally, I try to stay away from firmware based on any OS. However, I've written plenty of NeXTstep and Mac OS programs that rely on an OS.

I learned that you sometimes need intermediate versions of tools - even if you never used them! With old NeXTstep software, and old Mac OS software, sometimes I'd need to load files in an old version of Project Builder or Xcode, just so the tool would offer to convert the file to a newer format ... only then could I port the converted files to a new OS. This is the Project Builder GUI design files in NeXT and Apple software. I have so many old computers running old OS releases with old tools. Some day they won't boot, and I'll lose some old code.

Just last year, though, I ported a NeXTstep program to macOS by extracting old C source from cvs and making a few changes.

Brian


On Jun 26, 2022, at 2:16 PM, Jay Schwichtenberg wrote:
> Really wasn't thinking about building the firmware. More about the hardware to program the device, but that is a good point.
> 
> If you do this in real life you archive all the software used, including the OS. You're a fucking idiot if you don't. That was one of the first things I was programmed to do when I started doing this type of work. Some places I've worked you pull the hard drive and archive it too. Even so you still might not have the HW to run all the software on. Hopefully at least there will be a compiler, linker and programmer that can build and burn the code.
> 
> Jay S.
> 
> On 6/26/2022 1:53 PM, mskala at ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Jun 2022, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy wrote:
>>> If you are doing a critical system or secure system you will have to go above
>>> and beyond to deal with those issues.
>>> 
>>> Question to ask also is the technology to update the firmware going to exist
>>> in 20 years and I'm including USB in that statement?
>> If you're serious about designing for a multi-decade lifetime, then you
>> release the source code and when necessary someone can port it to whatever
>> platform is current in the future.
>> 




From gordonjcp at gjcp.net  Mon Jun 27 09:21:28 2022
From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordonjcp)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 08:21:28 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Using dual BBD chips for higher clock frequency
In-Reply-To: <CAAv6=UA2TUMrnkQ-jHhQrmR1T3DZoc_g+1VjBpcPJUzE+YGtzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd3dc195f1e7430894c2060a1f1258e3@futurehorizons.com>
 <413791064.2476775.1655336075942@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CACZGMxLbC08PxgUd6War+_vPA=adii2XB+Wx1Y01RrX4NZSd-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCF2BA90-E6AF-41FA-B031-D3A06A37688C@yahoo.com>
 <206ccf9697654b3790a2e1ebb6810f09@futurehorizons.com>
 <A3A86B16-8294-4ED3-9D79-BCE99E4C0A67@electricdruid.net>
 <9bd1561b-0888-ac3f-6fcb-fe020ff207ac@comcast.net>
 <478ADA86-A759-49C6-B15B-10880B46CD73@audiobanshee.com>
 <jlivvt6opshnuo1lkpx8w194.1656152738336@email.android.com>
 <CAAv6=UA2TUMrnkQ-jHhQrmR1T3DZoc_g+1VjBpcPJUzE+YGtzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220627072128.GA10588@gjcp.net>

On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 10:43:16AM -0400, Michael E Caloroso via Synth-diy wrote:
> 
> Many chorus algorithms bandwidth limit the delayed signal intentionally.
> Frequencies below 100hz tend to muddy the chorus effect in a mix.  Limiting
> upper frequencies can improve the effect, this is a subjective area based
> on instrument (or vocals) and player preferences.

It's interesting that the chorus in the Juno 106, which people always hold up as the thing to emulate, has fairly flat bass response and a 24dB/oct Butterworth filter rolling off at 10kHz.  Anecdotally, a digital chorus effect doesn't sound anything like as good without a bloody great lowpass on it.

-- 
Gordonjcp



From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 27 10:59:44 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 09:59:44 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Saw this today:
https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/w-x-and-z-the-layers-of-a-system-568cf6b1477c

About 1/3 the way down is a photo with (to this community)
recognizable content.  The caption amused me :)

Neil


From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jun 27 11:50:50 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 11:50:50 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <007001d88991$9a9b1e70$cfd15b50$@modularsynthesis.com>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <007001d88991$9a9b1e70$cfd15b50$@modularsynthesis.com>
Message-ID: <16c842cd-49db-c111-934d-41d74817bdd3@go2.pl>

A doorbell made with 8080 in 1976 must have been impressive! It's like 
the top tier of nerdyness. I remember how popular among nerdy geeks was 
a melody doorbell made with 74154 and oscillator with 16 trimmers for 16 
notes, and that was 10 years later than that!

46 years for such an old unreliable EPROM sounds amazing. OTOH many 
vintage synths with EPROM, usually still work after 40 years.

Was 8080 the only uP available back then? I guess there was no Z80 yet?

Roman


W dniu 2022-06-26 o?21:19, Dave Brown pisze:
> I don?t remember the retention for 2708 eproms, but I thought it was 
> something like 10 years. In 1976 I built a musical doorbell using an 
> 8080/2708. It was modelled after the music program that ran on a Sol-20. 
> I could create new songs and upload them to my doorbell. While I can no 
> longer do that, it does still play the default music selection. It?s 
> been running continuously now for 46 years. I?ve only had to do two 
> repairs on it. One was the capacitor in the -5V converter went bad. The 
> other is the 8080 died. The 2708 is still running with the original 
> program. It has sat in a tight loop waiting for someone to press the 
> doorbell button. For the last nearly four decades I?ve lived remotely so 
> it doesn?t get pressed but maybe 2/month. I calculated once how many 
> loops that processor has gone through but I forget now. I know this 
> isn?t related to the flash memory, but it?s a testament to the retention 
> of at least this 2708.
> 
> 
> Dave
> 
> *From:* Synth-diy <synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org> *On Behalf Of *ASSI
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 26, 2022 11:27 AM
> *To:* synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
> 
> On Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2022 11:34:04 CEST Roman Sowa wrote:
> 
>  > what are your concerns about flash retention time in microcontrollers?
> 
> There's usually something else in the system that will fail years before 
> that
> 
> happens?
> 
>  > Usually PIC18 and PIC16 claim 40 years in datasheet, but dsPIC only 20.
> 
>  > I've seen corrupted memory in products made about 15 years ago with
> 
>  > dsPIC, so datasheet value seems real.
> 
> If it wasn't programmed with their "professional" programmer, the datasheet
> 
> values are void and even then there are other failure modes that affect 
> memory
> 
> integrity that produce similar lifetime / failure rate profiles.
> 
>  > One way to do it is to rewrite all memory from time to time, but how to
> 
>  > do that? Even if there's real time clock running, the user may always
> 
>  > change the date, and if it's not alowed, the battery or supercapacitor
> 
>  > may die, or get ripped away. My idea is to clearly state somewhere, in
> 
>  > manual, or on the device "please run maintenance procedure if it's year
> 
>  > ending with 0 or 5" but I'm affraid nobody will do that anyway, and it
> 
>  > seems foolish.
> 
> If you are thinking of overwriting a Flash block with the same data (no
> 
> erase), all you're gonna do is to slowly destroy the data via program 
> disturb
> 
> (which is also data-dependent).??Flash is meant to be erased by blocks and
> 
> programmed by word-lines, each cell just once per cycle.
> 
> If the Flash in question offers a margin read operation: use that after
> 
> programming to weed out parts that did not program well or had latent 
> defects.
> 
> You can sometimes do that even during normal operation (say on boot), i.e.
> 
> compare a normal and a margin read to get early warning of impending data
> 
> loss.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Achim.
> 
> -- 
> 
> +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
> 
> Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf rackAttack:
> 
> http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds 
> <http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 


From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jun 27 12:00:19 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 12:00:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <c7c4a768-161a-35de-88f5-18f7f4737208@go2.pl>


W dniu 2022-06-26 o?21:54, brianw pisze:
> 
> A bootloader is typically stored in ROM inside the CPU, and is capable of reading at least two alternate boot images. If one firmware image is corrupted due to power loss during programming, the other image will still boot. Once booted, the user can re-attempt the firmware upgrade and hope that power won't be interrupted. Some bootloaders use dual devices so that the backup device is not being erased while the updated device is being upgraded.

that's what I do in my applications capable of remote upgrade. Sometimes 
it's just the small bootloader and only one image of "payload" firmware, 
sometimes there are 2 images, one in flash region protected against any 
writes.
But still, the bootloader is in the same flash memory, nothing like 
mask-ROM from the old days.


> I've seen products with three levels of boot. The first bootloader cannot be changed in the field without special hardware. The second bootloader can be upgraded by the first bootloader, in case bugs are found in the second bootloader. The third boot stage is the actual firmware for the product.

Yes, that's the drill, although in case I need the intermediate 
bootloader, I can still upload it as regular firmware and then run it as 
2nd tier bootloader for actual firmware upload.


Roman


From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jun 27 12:15:18 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 12:15:18 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <01C88CC0-F7CE-47FC-B20B-DA9B5AFF56A7@audiobanshee.com>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <7a26858c-a862-187d-c5d7-6692a119b2ad@gmx.de>
 <201f3ec9-9ed6-8ebb-5cfb-2b65da84a94f@go2.pl>
 <01C88CC0-F7CE-47FC-B20B-DA9B5AFF56A7@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <5993d0b6-3ada-8347-c9f6-963de3ca3b3d@go2.pl>



W dniu 2022-06-26 o?22:11, brianw pisze:
> 
>> And I'd love to sacrifice part of memory for error correction, but PICs do not provide anything to do that.
> 
> Exactly, Your question makes me wonder whether designing with PIC is appropriate for a product that is intended to last a long time. Compared to the range of features available in other processors, the PIC seems rather limited. Of course, that affects the price, so longevity may be another tradeoff between cost and quality.

My applications are really simple. Low range of PIC16 is usually all I 
need, I reach for higher PIC range only when needing more RAM than those 
silly 256B. And second reason - I'm too old and too busy for learning 
another processor now, even if it would take only a few weeks, I'm too 
far behind with everything to even think about such a major change.
And most of all - it would have to be some higher range micro, with all 
that booting and robustness stuff sorted out in hardware. In another 
words, I'm not going to use 2GHz processor needing couple of watts power 
to make toilet flush controller.

OTOH considering that whatever happens I will not be doing any of that 
for more than 20 years, and noone is willing to buy me out, I may as 
well use DGAF method against bit-rot.

Roman


From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jun 27 12:23:51 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 12:23:51 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <7ec17daa-6c6c-cde8-c8f7-64aa39ee6bf9@comcast.net>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <AE6F7A1A-7FE4-4F51-9602-37B0DB883264@audiobanshee.com>
 <7ec17daa-6c6c-cde8-c8f7-64aa39ee6bf9@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <7226690e-fa69-ebe0-10ff-8ae1b2137b8d@go2.pl>



W dniu 2022-06-26 o?22:41, Jay Schwichtenberg via Synth-diy pisze:
> 
> A number of projects I've worked on include enough Flash for dual 
> images. Usually you program the new image into the unused memory space, 
> validate it and then switch the boot pointer to it. Normally you 
> wouldn't do this to the bootloader, hopefully you coded it good enough 
> but have also used the previous technique for them too.

that's exactly what I do

> If you are doing a critical system or secure system you will have to go 
> above and beyond to deal with those issues.

critical in a sense that when you play a concert for 100.000 people you 
don't want the main instrument to go silent or play random notes.
You can always switch to backup, but if it's 500kg instrument made only 
in 1 piece, then it's not so easy.

> 
> Question to ask also is the technology to update the firmware going to 
> exist in 20 years and I'm including USB in that statement?

The programing procedure is described in datasheets about programming so 
it's free to use by generations to come. It does not rely on USB or any 
programmer in particular. As long as PICs will be popular, there will be 
at least a few 3rd party programmers available. And finally, in 40 years 
there will be more skilled engineers, with access to better technology, 
so they will be able to simply replace a whole unit with new one, 
designed and manufactured by AI in just 3 hours.

Roman


From modular at go2.pl  Mon Jun 27 12:34:23 2022
From: modular at go2.pl (Roman Sowa)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 12:34:23 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
Message-ID: <93e6afc1-f4a4-b0f2-91c9-a6f673d3b6c9@go2.pl>



W dniu 2022-06-26 o?20:27, ASSI pisze:
> 
> There's usually something else in the system that will fail years before that
> happens?

yes, good point. For example tin whiskers.

> 
> If you are thinking of overwriting a Flash block with the same data (no
> erase), all you're gonna do is to slowly destroy the data via program disturb
> (which is also data-dependent).  Flash is meant to be erased by blocks and
> programmed by word-lines, each cell just once per cycle.

So if that's the case, rewriting the config bytes might lead to bricking 
the device sooner than it would with no refresh at all...


> If the Flash in question offers a margin read operation: use that after
> programming to weed out parts that did not program well or had latent defects.
> You can sometimes do that even during normal operation (say on boot), i.e.
> compare a normal and a margin read to get early warning of impending data
> loss.

I'm affraind there's no option for margin read in PICs

Roman


From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Mon Jun 27 12:34:46 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 10:34:46 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <16c842cd-49db-c111-934d-41d74817bdd3@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <007001d88991$9a9b1e70$cfd15b50$@modularsynthesis.com>
 <16c842cd-49db-c111-934d-41d74817bdd3@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <fccb7a415ab34ef789f91122ccf8d5a3@futurehorizons.com>

> On Behalf Of Roman Sowa

> Was 8080 the only uP available back then? I guess there was no Z80 yet?

There was the 8008 which was a bit complex to use.  But there was also the NatSemi SC/MP which got used in a lot of small applications.  Perhaps a bit expensive for a commercial doorbell, but it paved the way for low end embedded applications.  Also there were some simple calculator chips you could retrain to do looping programs (no branching) by adding an external counter and a bit of logic.



From werner.fluegel at b-tu.de  Mon Jun 27 12:57:52 2022
From: werner.fluegel at b-tu.de (=?UTF-8?B?RmzDvGdlbCwgV2VybmVy?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 12:57:52 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] a provoking question about time
In-Reply-To: <16c842cd-49db-c111-934d-41d74817bdd3@go2.pl>
References: <a59717c2-d753-6ed2-3679-fc183056e598@go2.pl>
 <4728216.GXAFRqVoOG@gertrud>
 <007001d88991$9a9b1e70$cfd15b50$@modularsynthesis.com>
 <16c842cd-49db-c111-934d-41d74817bdd3@go2.pl>
Message-ID: <15a58e0c-b358-73a6-7656-b2bb26b070f6@b-tu.de>

Am 27.06.2022 um 11:50 schrieb Roman Sowa:
> A doorbell made with 8080 in 1976 must have been impressive! It's like
> the top tier of nerdyness. 

Not 1976, but 1986 wit a U880 (east german Z80 clone):

https://hc-ddr.hucki.net/wiki/doku.php/elektronik/melodieklingel

Had the same thing built back then in the 80s :)

-- 
mfG.

W.Fl?gel
BTU Cottbus-Senftenberg
IKMZ/Anwendungssysteme Senftenberg
Tel. 03573 / 85382

Wir sind IT. Das ist kein Beruf, das ist eine Diagnose.
<7123838.uCcSxbalbl at rotfl.franken.de>
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From ben at stuyts.nl  Mon Jun 27 14:50:55 2022
From: ben at stuyts.nl (Ben Stuyts)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:50:55 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
In-Reply-To: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>

Haha, that reminds me of that quote that went something like ?It is user friendly but just very picky who it?s friends are??

Ben

> On 27 Jun 2022, at 10:59, Neil Johnson via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Saw this today:
> https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/w-x-and-z-the-layers-of-a-system-568cf6b1477c
> 
> About 1/3 the way down is a photo with (to this community)
> recognizable content.  The caption amused me :)
> 
> Neil
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From cheater00social at gmail.com  Mon Jun 27 20:05:20 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:05:20 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
In-Reply-To: <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
References: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-9QeQRDYbGbwErVuz5w-wbh3CojQaxnLD5x-11vxD8ZVw@mail.gmail.com>

I laughed my ass off. Here it is for prosperity. The context is an
article about team management stuff written by managers for managers.

https://i.imgur.com/przMnS7.png

On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 2:55 PM Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>
> Haha, that reminds me of that quote that went something like ?It is user friendly but just very picky who it?s friends are??
>
> Ben
>
> > On 27 Jun 2022, at 10:59, Neil Johnson via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Saw this today:
> > https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/w-x-and-z-the-layers-of-a-system-568cf6b1477c
> >
> > About 1/3 the way down is a photo with (to this community)
> > recognizable content.  The caption amused me :)
> >
> > Neil
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From fanwander at mnet-online.de  Tue Jun 28 00:04:03 2022
From: fanwander at mnet-online.de (Florian Anwander)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 00:04:03 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
In-Reply-To: <CAGn5V-9QeQRDYbGbwErVuz5w-wbh3CojQaxnLD5x-11vxD8ZVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
 <CAGn5V-9QeQRDYbGbwErVuz5w-wbh3CojQaxnLD5x-11vxD8ZVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0260beee-525e-b2e4-2d17-be19b96ad5bb@mnet-online.de>

Am 27.06.22 um 20:05 schrieb cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
> I laughed my ass off. Here it is for prosperity. The context is an
> article about team management stuff written by managers for managers.
I think it is the contrast in the context, which makes it funny. Without 
the context it is? ... hmmm.
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From hannes.janetzek at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 01:47:17 2022
From: hannes.janetzek at gmail.com (hannes.janetzek at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 01:47:17 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Is here somebody from around Atlanta who would help grab a
 weird synth?
Message-ID: <CA+jkZB0u5+gYhGPWaaOP9ekObdLxZr9yrx4ke19VLOLJ9G4oOw@mail.gmail.com>

Hey hopefully it's ok to post this here.
There is currently a synthesizer available for local pickup in Duluth which
I've been eagerly looking for for a while. I'm working on analyzing the
HON-MEG chip which is mostly used in Hohner home-organs, except for one
synthesizer they made around '86. It's said that only 200 have been built.
One of my goals is also to make an implementation of it with MAME - and of
course to see if it provides some insights to upgrade my accordion expander
:)

If anyone could image to grab it and send it over to Germany please get in
contact with me.

Thanks
Hannes
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From pete.hartman at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 01:55:18 2022
From: pete.hartman at gmail.com (Pete Hartman)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 18:55:18 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Is here somebody from around Atlanta who would help grab
 a weird synth?
In-Reply-To: <CA+jkZB0u5+gYhGPWaaOP9ekObdLxZr9yrx4ke19VLOLJ9G4oOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+jkZB0u5+gYhGPWaaOP9ekObdLxZr9yrx4ke19VLOLJ9G4oOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACodTR-BoC2TQL_y7nUHjQizx2VeecWW1gaXeB7eOnqot-py_w@mail.gmail.com>

Learn something new every day:  the only Duluth I've ever heard of was in
Minnesota.  I was sure you were mis-speaking, but sure enough there's an
Atlanta satellite named Duluth as well.  Sadly, I'm in Chicago so I can't
help.

Pete

On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 6:50 PM hannes.janetzek--- via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> Hey hopefully it's ok to post this here.
> There is currently a synthesizer available for local pickup in Duluth
> which I've been eagerly looking for for a while. I'm working on analyzing
> the HON-MEG chip which is mostly used in Hohner home-organs, except for one
> synthesizer they made around '86. It's said that only 200 have been built.
> One of my goals is also to make an implementation of it with MAME - and of
> course to see if it provides some insights to upgrade my accordion expander
> :)
>
> If anyone could image to grab it and send it over to Germany please get in
> contact with me.
>
> Thanks
> Hannes
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From eric at ericframpton.com  Tue Jun 28 02:07:30 2022
From: eric at ericframpton.com (Eric Frampton)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:07:30 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Is here somebody from around Atlanta who would help grab
 a weird synth?
In-Reply-To: <CA+jkZB0u5+gYhGPWaaOP9ekObdLxZr9yrx4ke19VLOLJ9G4oOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+jkZB0u5+gYhGPWaaOP9ekObdLxZr9yrx4ke19VLOLJ9G4oOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <96D63B50-7563-4B2F-B485-332BADD937D9@ericframpton.com>

Hi Hannes,

Funny, I?m an Atlanta native, so I saw Duluth and instantly thought ?Atlanta suburb,? not "city in Minnesota.? Although I?m a fan of Duluth (Minnesota) Trading Company.

I?m down in Atlanta playing almost every weekend, so perhaps I could connect up with the seller and make it happen. I?ll be back down there again July 4-5. Can you send me a link to the listing so I can see what we?re working with?

e


> On Jun 27, 2022, at 7:47 PM, hannes.janetzek--- via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> Hey hopefully it's ok to post this here.
> There is currently a synthesizer available for local pickup in Duluth which I've been eagerly looking for for a while. I'm working on analyzing the HON-MEG chip which is mostly used in Hohner home-organs, except for one synthesizer they made around '86. It's said that only 200 have been built. One of my goals is also to make an implementation of it with MAME - and of course to see if it provides some insights to upgrade my accordion expander :) 
> 
> If anyone could image to grab it and send it over to Germany please get in contact with me.
> 
> Thanks
> Hannes
>   
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org




From hannes.janetzek at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 02:32:11 2022
From: hannes.janetzek at gmail.com (hannes.janetzek at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 02:32:11 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Is here somebody from around Atlanta who would help grab
 a weird synth?
In-Reply-To: <96D63B50-7563-4B2F-B485-332BADD937D9@ericframpton.com>
References: <CA+jkZB0u5+gYhGPWaaOP9ekObdLxZr9yrx4ke19VLOLJ9G4oOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <96D63B50-7563-4B2F-B485-332BADD937D9@ericframpton.com>
Message-ID: <CA+jkZB0cx6R6y2d_qon6u5f0Dcpx+YVa9+Mqfb9DAGFTTyfwxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Am Di., 28. Juni 2022 um 02:07 Uhr schrieb Eric Frampton <
eric at ericframpton.com>:

> Hi Hannes,
>
> Funny, I?m an Atlanta native, so I saw Duluth and instantly thought
> ?Atlanta suburb,? not "city in Minnesota.? Although I?m a fan of Duluth
> (Minnesota) Trading Company.
>
> I?m down in Atlanta playing almost every weekend, so perhaps I could
> connect up with the seller and make it happen. I?ll be back down there
> again July 4-5. Can you send me a link to the listing so I can see what
> we?re working with?
>
> Hi Eric,
 thanks for the reply - that would be too awesome! It's about this one

https://www.musicgoround.com/product/duluth-ga/40042-S000194726/used-hohner-u-studio-synth-module-vintage-synthesizer
I guess it's the kind of the synth of which most copies have been ended up
on the skip.. I suppose it contains SSM 2044 filter which you could keep -
I have replacements from other Hohner organs.
Do you have experience with sending such things overseas?

Best regards
Hannes


e
>
>
> > On Jun 27, 2022, at 7:47 PM, hannes.janetzek--- via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hey hopefully it's ok to post this here.
> > There is currently a synthesizer available for local pickup in Duluth
> which I've been eagerly looking for for a while. I'm working on analyzing
> the HON-MEG chip which is mostly used in Hohner home-organs, except for one
> synthesizer they made around '86. It's said that only 200 have been built.
> One of my goals is also to make an implementation of it with MAME - and of
> course to see if it provides some insights to upgrade my accordion expander
> :)
> >
> > If anyone could image to grab it and send it over to Germany please get
> in contact with me.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Hannes
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
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From cheater00social at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 02:57:30 2022
From: cheater00social at gmail.com (cheater cheater)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 02:57:30 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
In-Reply-To: <0260beee-525e-b2e4-2d17-be19b96ad5bb@mnet-online.de>
References: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
 <CAGn5V-9QeQRDYbGbwErVuz5w-wbh3CojQaxnLD5x-11vxD8ZVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0260beee-525e-b2e4-2d17-be19b96ad5bb@mnet-online.de>
Message-ID: <CAGn5V-8hsnLUmd5kk1G9oP+1P9d4QoJL5Sj0gDnJe=OJrdR87A@mail.gmail.com>

If you want to see non-experts using complicated user interfaces, just
go to youtube and type in "eurorack noise", now you will understand
why we're laughing

On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 12:04 AM Florian Anwander
<fanwander at mnet-online.de> wrote:
>
> Am 27.06.22 um 20:05 schrieb cheater cheater via Synth-diy:
>
> I laughed my ass off. Here it is for prosperity. The context is an
> article about team management stuff written by managers for managers.
>
> I think it is the contrast in the context, which makes it funny. Without the context it is  ... hmmm.


From markverbos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 13:19:53 2022
From: markverbos at gmail.com (mark verbos)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 13:19:53 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
In-Reply-To: <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
References: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <905DCFE1-57BD-4287-BF70-B8B31722C74B@gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&t=7s <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&t=7s>





> On Jun 27, 2022, at 2:50 PM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
> 
> Haha, that reminds me of that quote that went something like ?It is user friendly but just very picky who it?s friends are??
> 
> Ben
> 
>> On 27 Jun 2022, at 10:59, Neil Johnson via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Saw this today:
>> https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/w-x-and-z-the-layers-of-a-system-568cf6b1477c
>> 
>> About 1/3 the way down is a photo with (to this community)
>> recognizable content.  The caption amused me :)
>> 
>> Neil
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 14:10:17 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 13:10:17 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
In-Reply-To: <905DCFE1-57BD-4287-BF70-B8B31722C74B@gmail.com>
References: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
 <905DCFE1-57BD-4287-BF70-B8B31722C74B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACZGMx+LGaryWZ1SuC6=m_D5iLh1eLLSde29h7ofdNeKNo+QwQ@mail.gmail.com>

mark verbos wrote:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&t=7s
>

Dan from our (Roku) San Jose office did a version with a more recognisable prop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alGOaGXRR3k

:)

Neil


From jschwich53 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 28 18:39:01 2022
From: jschwich53 at comcast.net (Jay Schwichtenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 09:39:01 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
In-Reply-To: <905DCFE1-57BD-4287-BF70-B8B31722C74B@gmail.com>
References: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
 <905DCFE1-57BD-4287-BF70-B8B31722C74B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b2530582-f1d6-12fa-93e4-ff46c9e3982a@comcast.net>

Thanks Mark.

He's lying, I know there's a squirrel cage with squirrels in there 
somewhere.

Taking the audio of that and using it either as a feed or mucking it up 
with some form of granular processing is going to be priceless.

Jay S.

On 6/28/2022 4:19 AM, mark verbos via Synth-diy wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&t=7s 
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&t=7s>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jun 27, 2022, at 2:50 PM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>>
>> Haha, that reminds me of that quote that went something like ?It is 
>> user friendly but just very picky who it?s friends are??
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>> On 27 Jun 2022, at 10:59, Neil Johnson via Synth-diy 
>>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Saw this today:
>>> https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/w-x-and-z-the-layers-of-a-system-568cf6b1477c
>>>
>>> About 1/3 the way down is a photo with (to this community)
>>> recognizable content. ?The caption amused me :)
>>>
>>> Neil
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Usemarketplace at synth-diy.org
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From neil.johnson71 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 18:53:22 2022
From: neil.johnson71 at gmail.com (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 17:53:22 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Amusing comment
In-Reply-To: <b2530582-f1d6-12fa-93e4-ff46c9e3982a@comcast.net>
References: <CACZGMx+OWNtEEJRaFKHH855x4paE8vcxte74+CerJWE=18YL+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <448121E5-0C49-4684-A5FB-11E8032BB259@stuyts.nl>
 <905DCFE1-57BD-4287-BF70-B8B31722C74B@gmail.com>
 <b2530582-f1d6-12fa-93e4-ff46c9e3982a@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CACZGMxLAUTXWnk7_R+qjTQA0T4rE2rVVBT1eFecq52E7aNNSRQ@mail.gmail.com>

mark verbos wrote:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&t=7s

Years ago I found this file on the Prelinger film archive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mligFAc1hcw

I used it as a test stream for a DVB-H test transmitter.  Not sure if
my colleagues appreciated it at the time, but it amused me ;)

Neil


From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 22:46:52 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 15:46:52 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
References: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6.ref@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>

I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply. 
Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug. 
Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins. 
https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin

I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug. 
If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
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From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 23:44:00 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 21:44:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
References: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6.ref@yahoo.com>
 <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20353777.49986.1656539040321@mail.yahoo.com>

 Well, I suppose I could. Then I guess the question is, does anyone know where I'd find the specs and pinout of the needed power supply?
    On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 03:53:26 PM CDT, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:  
 
 I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.?Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.?Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.?https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.?If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
  
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From jason at redfish.net  Thu Jun 30 00:17:17 2022
From: jason at redfish.net (Jason Proctor)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 15:17:17 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <20353777.49986.1656539040321@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6.ref@yahoo.com>
 <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
 <20353777.49986.1656539040321@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALQanALiyN6ZaL=qmW=+B+s1PAdLqH5Px0MxBhG6ZTH_xGVgcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe Moog has them? Same company IIRC.


On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 14:48, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
<synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> Well, I suppose I could. Then I guess the question is, does anyone know where I'd find the specs and pinout of the needed power supply?
>
> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 03:53:26 PM CDT, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>
> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>
> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.
> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org



From ben at stuyts.nl  Thu Jun 30 12:19:07 2022
From: ben at stuyts.nl (Ben Stuyts)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 12:19:07 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <CALQanALiyN6ZaL=qmW=+B+s1PAdLqH5Px0MxBhG6ZTH_xGVgcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6.ref@yahoo.com>
 <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
 <20353777.49986.1656539040321@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CALQanALiyN6ZaL=qmW=+B+s1PAdLqH5Px0MxBhG6ZTH_xGVgcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8EC629A9-2EFB-4B06-8C4D-24FB38385559@stuyts.nl>

I have a Big Briar etherwave (with Bob Moog?s signature :-) ). I will have a look tonight at the specs and plug.

Ben


> On 30 Jun 2022, at 00:17, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:
> 
> Maybe Moog has them? Same company IIRC.
> 
> 
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 14:48, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Well, I suppose I could. Then I guess the question is, does anyone know where I'd find the specs and pinout of the needed power supply?
>> 
>> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 03:53:26 PM CDT, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
>> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
>> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
>> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>> 
>> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.
>> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 




From loscha at gmail.com  Thu Jun 30 12:42:39 2022
From: loscha at gmail.com (Loscha)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 20:42:39 +1000
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <8EC629A9-2EFB-4B06-8C4D-24FB38385559@stuyts.nl>
References: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6.ref@yahoo.com>
 <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
 <20353777.49986.1656539040321@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CALQanALiyN6ZaL=qmW=+B+s1PAdLqH5Px0MxBhG6ZTH_xGVgcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8EC629A9-2EFB-4B06-8C4D-24FB38385559@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <CAA25cvfwe-mKiZvyMhrPM5bS8d7MoWxnMrR+_31O_NVEahWVYg@mail.gmail.com>

Fdiskc has the service manual
14vac 200ma
Has DIN Pinout in there, too

https://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/


On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 at 20:23, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:

> I have a Big Briar etherwave (with Bob Moog?s signature :-) ). I will have
> a look tonight at the specs and plug.
>
> Ben
>
>
> > On 30 Jun 2022, at 00:17, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe Moog has them? Same company IIRC.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 14:48, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, I suppose I could. Then I guess the question is, does anyone know
> where I'd find the specs and pinout of the needed power supply?
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 03:53:26 PM CDT, Didier Leplae via
> Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a
> friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
> >> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
> >> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
> >> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
> >> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
> >>
> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
> >>
> >> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in
> the midi style plug.
> >> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big
> Briar supply?
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Synth-diy mailing list
> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 15:21:24 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 08:21:24 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <CAA25cvfwe-mKiZvyMhrPM5bS8d7MoWxnMrR+_31O_NVEahWVYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA25cvfwe-mKiZvyMhrPM5bS8d7MoWxnMrR+_31O_NVEahWVYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <623B7129-107D-42C7-A2B5-8A9086485183@yahoo.com>

Ok, that confirms the Moog Etherwave power supply isn?t going to work, because it is 220vac.

> On Jun 30, 2022, at 5:49 AM, Loscha via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Fdiskc has the service manual
> 14vac 200ma
> Has DIN Pinout in there, too
> 
> https://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 at 20:23, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>> I have a Big Briar etherwave (with Bob Moog?s signature :-) ). I will have a look tonight at the specs and plug.
>> 
>> Ben
>> 
>> 
>> > On 30 Jun 2022, at 00:17, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Maybe Moog has them? Same company IIRC.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 14:48, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
>> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> Well, I suppose I could. Then I guess the question is, does anyone know where I'd find the specs and pinout of the needed power supply?
>> >> 
>> >> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 03:53:26 PM CDT, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
>> >> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>> >> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>> >> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
>> >> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
>> >> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>> >> 
>> >> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.
>> >> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> > 
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 15:35:37 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 08:35:37 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <623B7129-107D-42C7-A2B5-8A9086485183@yahoo.com>
References: <623B7129-107D-42C7-A2B5-8A9086485183@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A20E4BC-428A-492B-9F99-8AD54C0F0CF5@yahoo.com>

Very useful to have the manual too. Thanks!

> On Jun 30, 2022, at 8:28 AM, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Ok, that confirms the Moog Etherwave power supply isn?t going to work, because it is 220vac.
> 
>>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 5:49 AM, Loscha via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> Fdiskc has the service manual
>> 14vac 200ma
>> Has DIN Pinout in there, too
>> 
>> https://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 at 20:23, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>>> I have a Big Briar etherwave (with Bob Moog?s signature :-) ). I will have a look tonight at the specs and plug.
>>> 
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > On 30 Jun 2022, at 00:17, Jason Proctor <jason at redfish.net> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > Maybe Moog has them? Same company IIRC.
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 14:48, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
>>> > <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> >> 
>>> >> Well, I suppose I could. Then I guess the question is, does anyone know where I'd find the specs and pinout of the needed power supply?
>>> >> 
>>> >> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 03:53:26 PM CDT, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
>>> >> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>>> >> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>>> >> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
>>> >> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
>>> >> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>>> >> 
>>> >> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.
>>> >> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> >> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> >> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> >> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> > 
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Synth-diy mailing list
>>> > Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> > http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> > Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> > 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
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From ben at stuyts.nl  Thu Jun 30 17:43:11 2022
From: ben at stuyts.nl (Ben Stuyts)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:43:11 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
References: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6.ref@yahoo.com>
 <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <182898A2-C2F7-423B-96DA-A22F034D5679@stuyts.nl>

Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.

The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.

Ben


> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
> 
> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply. 
> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug. 
> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins. 
> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin <https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin>
> 
> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug. 
> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jun 30 17:48:35 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 15:48:35 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <182898A2-C2F7-423B-96DA-A22F034D5679@stuyts.nl>
References: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6.ref@yahoo.com>
 <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
 <182898A2-C2F7-423B-96DA-A22F034D5679@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <68fc049ef4ae49cabfdadd72973321bc@futurehorizons.com>

It shouldn?t actually damage a MIDI device if it was plugged into one as the MIDI pins aren?t there.

But yeah, we (mis)used DIN connectors like there was no alternative back in the old days :-)

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Ben Stuyts
Sent: 30 June 2022 16:43
To: Didier Leplae
Cc: Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin

Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.

The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.

Ben

[cid:image001.jpg at 01D88CA1.3D8EC660]

On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:

I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin

I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.
If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>

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From ben at stuyts.nl  Thu Jun 30 18:32:19 2022
From: ben at stuyts.nl (Ben Stuyts)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 18:32:19 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <68fc049ef4ae49cabfdadd72973321bc@futurehorizons.com>
References: <68fc049ef4ae49cabfdadd72973321bc@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <B5156EE5-2A90-49B4-8510-0C86BBAF48AA@stuyts.nl>

Well, the Din plug goes back way further than MIDI. See any hifi gear in Europa from then 60?s or 70?s. So if anybody?s misusing the plug, it is MIDI. 

Ben

> On 30 Jun 2022, at 17:48, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> It shouldn?t actually damage a MIDI device if it was plugged into one as the MIDI pins aren?t there.
>  
> But yeah, we (mis)used DIN connectors like there was no alternative back in the old days :-)
>  
> From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Ben Stuyts
> Sent: 30 June 2022 16:43
> To: Didier Leplae
> Cc: Synth-diy Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
>  
> Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>  
> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>  
> Ben
>  
> <image001.jpg>
> 
> 
> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>  
> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply. 
> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug. 
> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins. 
> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>  
> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug. 
> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>  
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From sleepy_dog at gmx.de  Thu Jun 30 18:46:47 2022
From: sleepy_dog at gmx.de (sleepy_dog at gmx.de)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 18:46:47 +0200
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <B5156EE5-2A90-49B4-8510-0C86BBAF48AA@stuyts.nl>
References: <68fc049ef4ae49cabfdadd72973321bc@futurehorizons.com>
 <B5156EE5-2A90-49B4-8510-0C86BBAF48AA@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <79e2ce72-a88d-06d9-fddd-3892843a04b5@gmx.de>

Ben Stuyts:
> Well, the Din plug goes back way further than MIDI. See any hifi gear
> in Europa from then 60?s or 70?s. So if anybody?s misusing the plug,
> it is MIDI.

yep, my father has a bunch of reel-to-reel magnetic tape thingy and some
accompanying gear that uses those plugs for everything signal. From 70s
to 80s gear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector#Analog_audio

>
> Ben
>
>> On 30 Jun 2022, at 17:48, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> It shouldn?t actually damage a MIDI device if it was plugged into one
>> as the MIDI pins aren?t there.
>>
>> But yeah, we (mis)used DIN connectors like there was no alternative
>> back in the old days :-)
>>
>> *From:*Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf
>> Of *Ben Stuyts
>> *Sent:* 30 June 2022 16:43
>> *To:* Didier Leplae
>> *Cc:* Synth-diy Mailing List
>> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
>>
>> Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>>
>> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug
>> can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> <image001.jpg>
>>
>>
>> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
>> <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>>
>> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a
>> friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
>>
>> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>>
>> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>>
>> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
>>
>> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
>>
>> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>>
>> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit
>> in the midi style plug.
>>
>> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big
>> Briar supply?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>> <mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org


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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jun 30 19:08:27 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:08:27 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <B5156EE5-2A90-49B4-8510-0C86BBAF48AA@stuyts.nl>
References: <68fc049ef4ae49cabfdadd72973321bc@futurehorizons.com>
 <B5156EE5-2A90-49B4-8510-0C86BBAF48AA@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <3c083ef82361444492e7e9d5c1ba83e7@futurehorizons.com>

Yes I was implying that MIDI was the misuse.  Although B&O used those same pins for their wired remote control as well long before MIDI.  The Revox remote also used DIN but that might have been the 4 pin version which would have been more sensible for MIDI to use.


From: Ben Stuyts [mailto:ben at stuyts.nl]
Sent: 30 June 2022 17:32
To: Mike Bryant
Cc: Didier Leplae; Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin

Well, the Din plug goes back way further than MIDI. See any hifi gear in Europa from then 60?s or 70?s. So if anybody?s misusing the plug, it is MIDI.
Ben


On 30 Jun 2022, at 17:48, Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com<mailto:mbryant at futurehorizons.com>> wrote:
?
It shouldn?t actually damage a MIDI device if it was plugged into one as the MIDI pins aren?t there.

But yeah, we (mis)used DIN connectors like there was no alternative back in the old days :-)

From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Ben Stuyts
Sent: 30 June 2022 16:43
To: Didier Leplae
Cc: Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin

Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.

The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.

Ben

<image001.jpg>



On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:

I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin

I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.
If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>

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From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 19:10:24 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 12:10:24 -0500
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
Message-ID: <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>

I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3 are both connected to ground.

Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin din connector on it

> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
> 
> ?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it. 
> 
> Ben
> 
>>> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that means there were different versions?
>> 
>>>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>>>> 
>>> ?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>>> 
>>> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>>> 
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>> <PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>
>>> 
>>>> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply. 
>>>> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>>>> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>>>> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug. 
>>>> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins. 
>>>> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>>>> 
>>>> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug. 
>>>> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Synth-diy mailing list
>>>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>>>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>>> 
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From electrocontinuo at gmail.com  Thu Jun 30 19:52:45 2022
From: electrocontinuo at gmail.com (Peter Pearson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 13:52:45 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
 <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CA+qbVc-BA8bGTqd3rq3nEbMeQst9ixCXq92Fxxyzbps6WDOfzw@mail.gmail.com>

I've seen power adapters like that plenty but more commonly in 16VAC or
18VAC.  Something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303827582131?hash=item46bd88fcb3:g:9D0AAOSweuFf6gew

I would imagine using 16 or 18VAC would work fine.  If you hunt around on
ebay or similar you might be able to dig up a good match.  If necessary you
could always cut the cable and wire up your own 5 (or 3) pin DIN plug.
Shouldn't be overly difficult.

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 1:13 PM Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <
synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:

> I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I
> also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same
> pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another
> version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3
> are both connected to ground.
>
> Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power
> supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin
> din connector on it
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>
> ?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it.
>
> Ben
>
> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different
> than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is
> connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that
> means there were different versions?
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>
> ?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>
> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can
> be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>
> Ben
>
> <PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>
>
> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend
> for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
>
> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>
> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in
> the midi style plug.
> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar
> supply?
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Thu Jun 30 19:56:40 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 10:56:40 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
 <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FD5269E8-ECAA-4D78-8D53-810FB7813294@audiobanshee.com>

I may be oversimplifying, but the vast majority of AC output "supplies" are nothing more than a transformer.

If you live in the 220 VAC 50 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 220 VAC to 14 VAC.

If you live in the 120 VAC 60 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 120 VAC to 14 VAC.

It's possible to design a power supply circuit that actually generates a 14 VAC sine wave at the proper frequency, with 3 W of output power, but I somehow find it doubtful that Big Briar did that. The Apple II power supply was renowned for synthesizing a 60 Hz wave, with feedback to increase or decrease the frequency depending upon the correct output voltage. This is why the Apple II made an audible chirp when the power switch was flipped. But that power supply was a lot larger than the Etherwave, and certainly more expensive.

Brian


On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Didier Leplae wrote:
> I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3 are both connected to ground.
> 
> Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin din connector on it
> 
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>> ?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it. 
>> 
>> Ben
>> 
>> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that means there were different versions?
>>> 
>>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>>>> ?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>>>> 
>>>> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>>>> 
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>> <PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>
>>>> 
>>>> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>>>>> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply. 
>>>>> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>>>>> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>>>>> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug. 
>>>>> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins. 
>>>>> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin <https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin>
>>>>> 
>>>>> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug. 
>>>>> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?

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From mbryant at futurehorizons.com  Thu Jun 30 20:21:33 2022
From: mbryant at futurehorizons.com (Mike Bryant)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 18:21:33 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
 <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3b71770fa701439aa2b6198bccab820e@futurehorizons.com>

You?d need to check the internal circuit, but you may find a 12 or 18V DC switchmode PSU would do the job.  Really depends on the internals and whether it actually derives anything from the 50/60Hz


From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Didier Leplae via Synth-diy
Sent: 30 June 2022 18:10
To: Synth-diy Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin

I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3 are both connected to ground.

Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin din connector on it


On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl<mailto:ben at stuyts.nl>> wrote:
?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it.
Ben


On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com<mailto:didierleplae at yahoo.com>> wrote:
?
Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that means there were different versions?


On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl<mailto:ben at stuyts.nl>> wrote:
?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.

The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.

Ben

<PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>


On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:

I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin

I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.
If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
_______________________________________________
Synth-diy mailing list
Synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org<mailto:marketplace at synth-diy.org>

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From electrocontinuo at gmail.com  Thu Jun 30 20:41:07 2022
From: electrocontinuo at gmail.com (Peter Pearson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 14:41:07 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <3b71770fa701439aa2b6198bccab820e@futurehorizons.com>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
 <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
 <3b71770fa701439aa2b6198bccab820e@futurehorizons.com>
Message-ID: <CA+qbVc8ke1LYFujS_YkY1CgvGF-wee8J4RvWBKodSd74Xj2R7A@mail.gmail.com>

https://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/BigBriar%20Etherwave%20Service%20Manual.pdf

The schematic is here.  A DC supply won't work.  The theremin might be
fussy about grounding though, so you'll definitely want a center-tap on
your power adapter.  I wouldn't recommend trying to cheat a barrel jack AC
power adapter in there.

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 2:24 PM Mike Bryant <mbryant at futurehorizons.com>
wrote:

> You?d need to check the internal circuit, but you may find a 12 or 18V DC
> switchmode PSU would do the job.  Really depends on the internals and
> whether it actually derives anything from the 50/60Hz
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] *On Behalf Of *Didier
> Leplae via Synth-diy
> *Sent:* 30 June 2022 18:10
> *To:* Synth-diy Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
>
>
>
> I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I
> also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same
> pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another
> version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3
> are both connected to ground.
>
>
>
> Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power
> supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin
> din connector on it
>
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>
> ?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it.
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different
> than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is
> connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that
> means there were different versions?
>
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>
> ?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>
>
>
> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can
> be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>
>
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> <PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>
>
>
>
> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend
> for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
>
> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>
> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>
> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
>
> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
>
>
> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>
>
>
> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in
> the midi style plug.
>
> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar
> supply?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From tom at electricdruid.net  Thu Jun 30 20:58:24 2022
From: tom at electricdruid.net (Tom Wiltshire)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:58:24 +0100
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <FD5269E8-ECAA-4D78-8D53-810FB7813294@audiobanshee.com>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
 <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
 <FD5269E8-ECAA-4D78-8D53-810FB7813294@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <D1A9B888-AB9F-487F-9B97-DA9457CDB5F8@electricdruid.net>

+1 agree. An "AC supply" in this case is called a "transformer", surely?

I know they're a bit out of fashion, but I *think* they're still making them, so it can't be that hard to find one that'll get you from your local mains voltage to 14VAC. 200mA is basically nothing, so that's not going to be the hard bit. It looks like it needs a centre-tapped output, but those are common too, so it isn't difficult.

HTH,
Tom

> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:56, brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
> 
> I may be oversimplifying, but the vast majority of AC output "supplies" are nothing more than a transformer.
> 
> If you live in the 220 VAC 50 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 220 VAC to 14 VAC.
> 
> If you live in the 120 VAC 60 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 120 VAC to 14 VAC.
> 
> It's possible to design a power supply circuit that actually generates a 14 VAC sine wave at the proper frequency, with 3 W of output power, but I somehow find it doubtful that Big Briar did that. The Apple II power supply was renowned for synthesizing a 60 Hz wave, with feedback to increase or decrease the frequency depending upon the correct output voltage. This is why the Apple II made an audible chirp when the power switch was flipped. But that power supply was a lot larger than the Etherwave, and certainly more expensive.
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Didier Leplae wrote:
>> I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3 are both connected to ground.
>> 
>> Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin din connector on it
>> 
>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl <mailto:ben at stuyts.nl>> wrote:
>>> ?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it. 
>>> 
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com <mailto:idierleplae at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>> Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that means there were different versions?
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl <mailto:ben at stuyts.nl>> wrote:
>>>>> ?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ben
>>>>> 
>>>>> <PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply. 
>>>>>> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>>>>>> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>>>>>> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug. 
>>>>>> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins. 
>>>>>> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin <https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug. 
>>>>>> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org

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From electrocontinuo at gmail.com  Thu Jun 30 21:00:01 2022
From: electrocontinuo at gmail.com (Peter Pearson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 15:00:01 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Ensoniq keyboard calibration advice?
Message-ID: <CA+qbVc_hcR+muyfkqcngQWU4SwMXNS3X72xvskx=EeGRpMM7qw@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone on the list have insight or advice on getting Ensoniq gear to pass
the keyboard calibration routine?  I'm looking at an ASR10 at the moment.
Cleaned the PCBs, resoldered the connectors (the only advice I've seen
online), and checked continuity everywhere relevant I could think of.  No
dice.  I haven't seen any in depth guide to dealing with this online aside
from the "one simple trick" of resoldering the connector.

Ensoniq was very stingy with schematics but the keyboard section is posted
here:

http://www.tauntek.com/ASR10.htm

Any input would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!
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From brianw at audiobanshee.com  Thu Jun 30 21:08:23 2022
From: brianw at audiobanshee.com (brianw)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 12:08:23 -0700
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <D1A9B888-AB9F-487F-9B97-DA9457CDB5F8@electricdruid.net>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
 <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
 <FD5269E8-ECAA-4D78-8D53-810FB7813294@audiobanshee.com>
 <D1A9B888-AB9F-487F-9B97-DA9457CDB5F8@electricdruid.net>
Message-ID: <1F33648D-F601-4F50-B730-71071ED9411D@audiobanshee.com>

Yes, they're still making them. Look for Triad Magnetics on Mouser.com

https://www.mouser.com/c/power/power-supplies/plug-in-ac-adapters/wall-mount-ac-adapters/?m=Triad%20Magnetics&number%20of%20outputs=1%20Output&output%20voltage-channel%201=13.5%20V~~15%20V&instock=y&rp=power%2Fpower-supplies%2Fplug-in-ac-adapters%2Fwall-mount-ac-adapters%7C~Output%20Voltage-Channel%201

I recently designed a phono (turntable) preamp, and I wanted to have a bipolar supply while avoiding 120 VAC. The AC output Triad Magnetics products work well. They have a wide variety of output voltages, and I bought an assortment to use with power supply design variations.

They don't seem to have 14 VAC exactly ... only 13.5 VAC and 15 VAC. You'd have to look at the specific components in the Theremin to see whether either would be compatible (e.g. maximum voltage ratings, potential consequences of under-voltage, etc.).

Brian Willoughby


> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:58 AM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
> 
> +1 agree. An "AC supply" in this case is called a "transformer", surely?
> 
> I know they're a bit out of fashion, but I *think* they're still making them, so it can't be that hard to find one that'll get you from your local mains voltage to 14VAC. 200mA is basically nothing, so that's not going to be the hard bit. It looks like it needs a centre-tapped output, but those are common too, so it isn't difficult.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom
> 
>> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:56, brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com <mailto:brianw at audiobanshee.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I may be oversimplifying, but the vast majority of AC output "supplies" are nothing more than a transformer.
>> 
>> If you live in the 220 VAC 50 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 220 VAC to 14 VAC.
>> 
>> If you live in the 120 VAC 60 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 120 VAC to 14 VAC.
>> 
>> It's possible to design a power supply circuit that actually generates a 14 VAC sine wave at the proper frequency, with 3 W of output power, but I somehow find it doubtful that Big Briar did that. The Apple II power supply was renowned for synthesizing a 60 Hz wave, with feedback to increase or decrease the frequency depending upon the correct output voltage. This is why the Apple II made an audible chirp when the power switch was flipped. But that power supply was a lot larger than the Etherwave, and certainly more expensive.
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Didier Leplae wrote:
>>> I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3 are both connected to ground.
>>> 
>>> Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin din connector on it
>>> 
>>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl <mailto:ben at stuyts.nl>> wrote:
>>>> ?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it. 
>>>> 
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com <mailto:idierleplae at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that means there were different versions?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl <mailto:ben at stuyts.nl>> wrote:
>>>>>> ?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply. 
>>>>>>> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
>>>>>>> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
>>>>>>> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug. 
>>>>>>> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins. 
>>>>>>> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin <https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug. 
>>>>>>> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synth-diy mailing list
>> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org <mailto:Synth-diy at synth-diy.org>
>> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
>> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
> 

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From electrocontinuo at gmail.com  Thu Jun 30 21:18:19 2022
From: electrocontinuo at gmail.com (Peter Pearson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 15:18:19 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <1F33648D-F601-4F50-B730-71071ED9411D@audiobanshee.com>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
 <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
 <FD5269E8-ECAA-4D78-8D53-810FB7813294@audiobanshee.com>
 <D1A9B888-AB9F-487F-9B97-DA9457CDB5F8@electricdruid.net>
 <1F33648D-F601-4F50-B730-71071ED9411D@audiobanshee.com>
Message-ID: <CA+qbVc-RR1+BbQCPV2K2sQ5SjfSCWt3sDc3O+MCoi6bFpt6vPw@mail.gmail.com>

Those are all DC supplies from the looks of it.  They're also barrel plug
without a center tap.  You'll want a center tap.

And yes, you're basically looking at a transformer that plugs in the wall
on one end and has a cable going to your synth on the other.  If you've
ever cracked one open, you'll see that that's what's inside the box part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue1-lnHVkpQ&ab_channel=FRY524

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:11 PM brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:

> Yes, they're still making them. Look for Triad Magnetics on Mouser.com
>
>
> https://www.mouser.com/c/power/power-supplies/plug-in-ac-adapters/wall-mount-ac-adapters/?m=Triad%20Magnetics&number%20of%20outputs=1%20Output&output%20voltage-channel%201=13.5%20V~~15%20V&instock=y&rp=power%2Fpower-supplies%2Fplug-in-ac-adapters%2Fwall-mount-ac-adapters%7C~Output%20Voltage-Channel%201
>
> I recently designed a phono (turntable) preamp, and I wanted to have a
> bipolar supply while avoiding 120 VAC. The AC output Triad Magnetics
> products work well. They have a wide variety of output voltages, and I
> bought an assortment to use with power supply design variations.
>
> They don't seem to have 14 VAC exactly ... only 13.5 VAC and 15 VAC. You'd
> have to look at the specific components in the Theremin to see whether
> either would be compatible (e.g. maximum voltage ratings, potential
> consequences of under-voltage, etc.).
>
> Brian Willoughby
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:58 AM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
>
> +1 agree. An "AC supply" in this case is called a "transformer", surely?
>
> I know they're a bit out of fashion, but I *think* they're still making
> them, so it can't be that hard to find one that'll get you from your local
> mains voltage to 14VAC. 200mA is basically nothing, so that's not going to
> be the hard bit. It looks like it needs a centre-tapped output, but those
> are common too, so it isn't difficult.
>
> HTH,
> Tom
>
> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:56, brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
>
> I may be oversimplifying, but the vast majority of AC output "supplies"
> are nothing more than a transformer.
>
> If you live in the 220 VAC 50 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a
> transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 220 VAC to 14 VAC.
>
> If you live in the 120 VAC 60 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a
> transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 120 VAC to 14 VAC.
>
> It's possible to design a power supply circuit that actually generates a
> 14 VAC sine wave at the proper frequency, with 3 W of output power, but I
> somehow find it doubtful that Big Briar did that. The Apple II power supply
> was renowned for synthesizing a 60 Hz wave, with feedback to increase or
> decrease the frequency depending upon the correct output voltage. This is
> why the Apple II made an audible chirp when the power switch was flipped.
> But that power supply was a lot larger than the Etherwave, and certainly
> more expensive.
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Didier Leplae wrote:
>
> I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I
> also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same
> pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another
> version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3
> are both connected to ground.
>
> Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power
> supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin
> din connector on it
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>
> ?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it.
>
> Ben
>
> On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different
> than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is
> connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that
> means there were different versions?
>
> On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:
>
> ?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
>
> The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can
> be either 3-pin or 5-pin.
>
> Ben
>
> <PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>
>
> On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend
> for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
>
> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
>
> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in
> the midi style plug.
> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar
> supply?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at synth-diy.org
> http://synth-diy.org/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> Selling or trading? Use marketplace at synth-diy.org
>
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From grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com  Thu Jun 30 22:08:49 2022
From: grant at musictechnologiesgroup.com (grant musictechnologiesgroup.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 20:08:49 +0000
Subject: [sdiy] Ensoniq keyboard calibration advice?
In-Reply-To: <CA+qbVc_hcR+muyfkqcngQWU4SwMXNS3X72xvskx=EeGRpMM7qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+qbVc_hcR+muyfkqcngQWU4SwMXNS3X72xvskx=EeGRpMM7qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <em8b0ac7dd-6caa-4dba-82bd-489707e60da0@asus_n76>

I just overcame this with a VFX-FD (SD?). Whatever the floppy disk version is called. I don't know that "continuity" will be enough in this case. Depends on your meter. You need a dead short between the two coil boards. I had to do the usual solder-bridge with wire as a couple of my connections were 10 or so ohms (maybe the worst was 100?). It would not boot until I did those.

GB


------ Original Message ------
From: "Peter Pearson via Synth-diy" <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
To: "synth-diy mailing list" <synth-diy at synth-diy.org<mailto:synth-diy at synth-diy.org>>
Sent: 6/30/2022 12:00:01 PM
Subject: [sdiy] Ensoniq keyboard calibration advice?

Anyone on the list have insight or advice on getting Ensoniq gear to pass the keyboard calibration routine?  I'm looking at an ASR10 at the moment.  Cleaned the PCBs, resoldered the connectors (the only advice I've seen online), and checked continuity everywhere relevant I could think of.  No dice.  I haven't seen any in depth guide to dealing with this online aside from the "one simple trick" of resoldering the connector.

Ensoniq was very stingy with schematics but the keyboard section is posted here:

http://www.tauntek.com/ASR10.htm

Any input would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!
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From didierleplae at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 22:23:51 2022
From: didierleplae at yahoo.com (Didier Leplae)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 20:23:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <CA+qbVc-RR1+BbQCPV2K2sQ5SjfSCWt3sDc3O+MCoi6bFpt6vPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <805E3C90-3D9F-4612-AFC8-47DCFD763C42@stuyts.nl>
 <F69A71DF-FEF2-4FE7-86AF-2C3DC8AB358A@yahoo.com>
 <FD5269E8-ECAA-4D78-8D53-810FB7813294@audiobanshee.com>
 <D1A9B888-AB9F-487F-9B97-DA9457CDB5F8@electricdruid.net>
 <1F33648D-F601-4F50-B730-71071ED9411D@audiobanshee.com>
 <CA+qbVc-RR1+BbQCPV2K2sQ5SjfSCWt3sDc3O+MCoi6bFpt6vPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <450388388.44786.1656620631959@mail.yahoo.com>

 So, now I've opened up the theremin and it does indeed seem that pins 2&3 are connected to ground as indicated in the schematic from Fdiskc. 

The 14VAC is being converted to +12VDC and -12VDC with voltage regulators 78L12 & 79L12. So, I'd imagine going a little higher, to a 15VAC power supply wouldn't hurt anything.
   On Thursday, June 30, 2022, 2:25:14 PM CDT, Peter Pearson via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:  
 
 Those are all DC supplies from the looks of it.? They're also barrel plug without a center tap.? You'll want a center tap.
And yes, you're basically looking at a transformer that plugs in the wall on one end and has a cable going to your synth on the other.? If you've ever cracked one open, you'll see that that's what's inside the box part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue1-lnHVkpQ&ab_channel=FRY524

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:11 PM brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:

Yes, they're still making them. Look for Triad Magnetics on Mouser.com
https://www.mouser.com/c/power/power-supplies/plug-in-ac-adapters/wall-mount-ac-adapters/?m=Triad%20Magnetics&number%20of%20outputs=1%20Output&output%20voltage-channel%201=13.5%20V~~15%20V&instock=y&rp=power%2Fpower-supplies%2Fplug-in-ac-adapters%2Fwall-mount-ac-adapters%7C~Output%20Voltage-Channel%201

I recently designed a phono (turntable) preamp, and I wanted to have a bipolar supply while avoiding 120 VAC. The AC output Triad Magnetics products work well. They have a wide variety of output voltages, and I bought an assortment to use with power supply design variations.
They don't seem to have 14 VAC exactly ... only 13.5 VAC and 15 VAC. You'd have to look at the specific components in the Theremin to see whether either would be compatible (e.g. maximum voltage ratings, potential consequences of under-voltage, etc.).
Brian Willoughby


On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:58 AM, Tom Wiltshire <tom at electricdruid.net> wrote:
+1 agree. An "AC supply" in this case is called a "transformer", surely?
I know they're a bit out of fashion, but I *think* they're still making them, so it can't be that hard to find one that'll get you from your local mains voltage to 14VAC. 200mA is basically nothing, so that's not going to be the hard bit. It looks like it needs a centre-tapped output, but those are common too, so it isn't difficult.
HTH,Tom

On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:56, brianw <brianw at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
I may be oversimplifying, but the vast majority of AC output "supplies" are nothing more than a transformer.
If you live in the 220 VAC 50 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 220 VAC to 14 VAC.
If you live in the 120 VAC 60 Hz part of the world, then you'll need a transformer rated for 200 mA that can convert 120 VAC to 14 VAC.
It's possible to design a power supply circuit that actually generates a 14 VAC sine wave at the proper frequency, with 3 W of output power, but I somehow find it doubtful that Big Briar did that. The Apple II power supply was renowned for synthesizing a 60 Hz wave, with feedback to increase or decrease the frequency depending upon the correct output voltage. This is why the Apple II made an audible chirp when the power switch was flipped. But that power supply was a lot larger than the Etherwave, and certainly more expensive.
Brian

On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Didier Leplae wrote:
I would imagine what?s indicated on your power supply must be correct. I also found another image online of a power supply and it had the same pinout. Perhaps the schematic has an error or perhaps there was another version. I should be able to open up the theremin and see if pins 2 and 3 are both connected to ground.
Now, does anyone have a suggestion for building a 14vac 200ma power supply? Or if I could find something with those specs I could put a 5pin din connector on it




On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:


?Oh bummer. Let me know if you want me to actually measure it.?

Ben










On 30 Jun 2022, at 18:00, Didier Leplae <didierleplae at yahoo.com> wrote:




Interesting because the pinout shown on your power supply is different than indicated in the schematic in the manual on fdiskc. There pin 1 is connected to power and pin 2&3 are connected to ground. I wonder if that means there were different versions?


















On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Ben Stuyts <ben at stuyts.nl> wrote:






?Here?s a photo of mine. Funny, the MIDI warning on the label.
The connector on my Etherwave is a 5-pin connector, so the power plug can be either 3-pin or 5-pin.

Ben
<PSU_Etherwave.jpeg>




























On 29 Jun 2022, at 22:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy <synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:








I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.?Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.?Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.?https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin
I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in the midi style plug.?If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar supply?





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From list at mikebeauchamp.com  Thu Jun 30 22:35:51 2022
From: list at mikebeauchamp.com (Mike Beauchamp)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 16:35:51 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Power supply for Big Briar Etherwave Theremin
In-Reply-To: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
References: <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6.ref@yahoo.com>
 <0977F67C-B2D4-46D3-963A-FB370F4490E6@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <94474aed-d465-4ebd-ae64-3745e726ea7f@mikebeauchamp.com>




On 6/29/22 16:46, Didier Leplae via Synth-diy wrote:
> I have an opportunity to buy a Big Briar Etherwave Theremin from a 
> friend for cheap. The only problem is it is missing the power supply.
> Searching online, I find a lot of Moog Etherwave power supplies.
> Does anyone happen to know if these are compatible?
> The power plug on the Big Briar unit is a 5-pin midi style plug.
> Pictures of the Moog power supply look like 3 pins.
> https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin 
> <https://www.bigcitymusic.com/products/power-supply-115v-us-for-etherwave-theremin>
> 
> I?m wondering if they just simply removed two pins and the three fit in 
> the midi style plug.
> If not compatible, does anyone know where to get a hold of the Big Briar 
> supply?


If your mains voltage is 110-120VAC:

https://www.jameco.com/z/ACU140050C6951-Jameco-Reliapro-AC-to-AC-Wall-Adapter-Transformer-14-Volt-500mA-Black-Straight-2-1mm-Female-Plug_171408.html

Cut the barrel connector off and solder on a DIN plug with a pinout that 
matches the schematic.


Mike


From rainer at buchty.net  Thu Jun 30 23:28:49 2022
From: rainer at buchty.net (Rainer Buchty)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 23:28:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [sdiy] Ensoniq keyboard calibration advice?
In-Reply-To: <CA+qbVc_hcR+muyfkqcngQWU4SwMXNS3X72xvskx=EeGRpMM7qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+qbVc_hcR+muyfkqcngQWU4SwMXNS3X72xvskx=EeGRpMM7qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <da5a6071-7a2c-d941-40e9-292f6b6e75e@buchty.net>

On Thu, 30 Jun 2022, Peter Pearson via Synth-diy wrote:

> Anyone on the list have insight or advice on getting Ensoniq gear to pass
> the keyboard calibration routine?  I'm looking at an ASR10 at the moment.
> [...]
> Ensoniq was very stingy with schematics but the keyboard section is posted
> here:

Yeah, so you know what to check for ;)

All Ensoniq polypressure keyboards are essentially 16 sections per four 
keys (or, more correctly, 2*8 sections per 2*2 keys) muxed to their 
corresponding high-speed VCO. The VCOs' frequencies are driving the KPC 
ASIC's high-speed (well, at least back then) counters.

Bluntly put, each key is a little Theremin: The distance of the key's 
metal plate to the PCB-etched coil determins the frequency. For 
scanning, the ASIC's counters are reset, the muxes are set, then the 
counters are enabled and read out. Those counter values are processed 
through a bunch of hysteresis and threshold black magic in order to 
properly determine idle (key up) from "key traveling" and "key down" and 
finally "pressure".

As such, there are multiple failure scenarios for keyboard calibration 
errors (i.e. "unable to determine idle frequency").

- on VFX and possibly other machines that got the dual-PCB keyboard it's
   the connector between those two halves; remove it and put soldered-in
   wires there instead.
- PCB haircrack -- unfortunately, that's more than often the case
- pass transistor shot
- multiplexer dead
- defective KPC ASIC (though have never seen that one so far)

If it signals "calibration failure", then you can at least rule out the 
CPU, as "failure" is a dedicated code sent back to the main board.

(At least on the SQ80, the machine would just simply hang in calibration 
if neither "ok", KPC error #1/#2, or "calibration failure" are sent 
back. I somewhat doubt that they implemented a time-out on the later 
machines. Ensoniq somehow never liked timeouts -- e.g. if your Mirage 
after booting seemingly dies, just wait some 10 minutes until it finally 
fails filter calibration of all 8 voices and it most likely will spring 
back to life.)

HTH,
 	Rainer


From electrocontinuo at gmail.com  Thu Jun 30 23:54:46 2022
From: electrocontinuo at gmail.com (Peter Pearson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:54:46 -0400
Subject: [sdiy] Ensoniq keyboard calibration advice?
In-Reply-To: <da5a6071-7a2c-d941-40e9-292f6b6e75e@buchty.net>
References: <CA+qbVc_hcR+muyfkqcngQWU4SwMXNS3X72xvskx=EeGRpMM7qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <da5a6071-7a2c-d941-40e9-292f6b6e75e@buchty.net>
Message-ID: <CA+qbVc9FKzRZkNqdw5OqxjwqxwX0ApxwXDDkSg4bfuqK5az_sA@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting... Thanks!

This ASR10 has a ribbon cable hard wired between the 2 boards and I'm
pretty confident it's good.  After a thorough scrub, I had the whole
keyboard working if I selected to skip keyboard cal after it failed.  I
wanted it to pass cal so I did another check through and tweaked the
oscillator trims out of curiosity.  After that, half the keyboard wouldn't
play and the other half seemed basically fine.

Since I can get stuff to play, I think the digital part is more or less
working (though I'll have to look it over again in detail).  My "coils" all
beep out fine and I don't see any obvious board damage.  I'm going to have
to do another pass with a fine-tooth comb.

Wondering if maybe my oscillators are set too high and that's making it
cranky.  It'd be nice to know what frequency they're supposed to be set to
cuz I'd dial them in as close as I could get.

I've seen people say they had bad caps on their boards but I don't want to
recap anything unless it seems really necessary (or I need a hail mary).
Another post somewhere mentioned the 555 going bad.  So far, I don't think
I'm having those issues.

The pain in the butt with these is that as far as I can tell, you have to
fully strip the keyboard apart and fully put it back together again to
check your progress after each repair pass.  Not fun.  Black magic is
definitely an apt description.  Maybe I need to stock up on some goat blood
and black candles to get this working.

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 5:28 PM Rainer Buchty <rainer at buchty.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Jun 2022, Peter Pearson via Synth-diy wrote:
>
> > Anyone on the list have insight or advice on getting Ensoniq gear to pass
> > the keyboard calibration routine?  I'm looking at an ASR10 at the moment.
> > [...]
> > Ensoniq was very stingy with schematics but the keyboard section is
> posted
> > here:
>
> Yeah, so you know what to check for ;)
>
> All Ensoniq polypressure keyboards are essentially 16 sections per four
> keys (or, more correctly, 2*8 sections per 2*2 keys) muxed to their
> corresponding high-speed VCO. The VCOs' frequencies are driving the KPC
> ASIC's high-speed (well, at least back then) counters.
>
> Bluntly put, each key is a little Theremin: The distance of the key's
> metal plate to the PCB-etched coil determins the frequency. For
> scanning, the ASIC's counters are reset, the muxes are set, then the
> counters are enabled and read out. Those counter values are processed
> through a bunch of hysteresis and threshold black magic in order to
> properly determine idle (key up) from "key traveling" and "key down" and
> finally "pressure".
>
> As such, there are multiple failure scenarios for keyboard calibration
> errors (i.e. "unable to determine idle frequency").
>
> - on VFX and possibly other machines that got the dual-PCB keyboard it's
>    the connector between those two halves; remove it and put soldered-in
>    wires there instead.
> - PCB haircrack -- unfortunately, that's more than often the case
> - pass transistor shot
> - multiplexer dead
> - defective KPC ASIC (though have never seen that one so far)
>
> If it signals "calibration failure", then you can at least rule out the
> CPU, as "failure" is a dedicated code sent back to the main board.
>
> (At least on the SQ80, the machine would just simply hang in calibration
> if neither "ok", KPC error #1/#2, or "calibration failure" are sent
> back. I somewhat doubt that they implemented a time-out on the later
> machines. Ensoniq somehow never liked timeouts -- e.g. if your Mirage
> after booting seemingly dies, just wait some 10 minutes until it finally
> fails filter calibration of all 8 voices and it most likely will spring
> back to life.)
>
> HTH,
>         Rainer
>
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