AVR-Chat

Kong wrote:

>tom,
>
>i'm half way to being converted! by nothing more than the quality of
>your post alone! ;-)
>  
>

>*blush*
>  
>

>the last time i wrote anything substantial (>10 years ago), i went for
>delphi instead of VB or VC++, does that make me a PIC or an AVR person?  
>
>  
>

   I don't know that it is relevant at all.  While I never chose to use 
Delphi for anything, from wqhat I have read and heard over the years, it 
was a quite servicable applicaiton development platform.  Frankly (being 
an anti_Micey$lu$h bigot) I'm more imnpressed with you choosing s 
non-Mickey$lu$h product.  I have never liked the "Visual" product line.

>now if, i say if, i decide to go with AVR. which chip and tools would
>you recommend i start with? assuming that i am not going to stop with
>one project...
>is the atmega169 a good chip to start with?
>is the ATAVRBFLY (butterfly?) a worthy toy to learn with?
>  
>
   *WHOA*   that's sort of like asking "What's the best graphics card" 
or "Who makes the best computer?" *heh*

   The ATMEGA169 appears to be a very powerful chip.  I haven't studieid 
it in detail, but IIRC it includes direct LCD support, right?  If that 
is correct, and if you plan on workign with many LCDs, that might be a 
way to go.  The Biutterly is an amazing, low cost device, capable of 
increidble feats, given its cost.   Quite limited in overall 
capabilities, but if you're ona tight budget, it might be an exceellent 
first choice.

>should i get the stk500 or are the better alternatives?
>
>  
>
  Well.   An interesting question.   The STK-500 is certainly among the 
most reasonably priced vendor supplied development systems I have seen 
on the markert.  $79(US) is not a high price at all.  With one, in my 
not so humble opinion, serious designflaw, it is a fairly well designed 
piece of gear, at a reasonable price (and I wouldn't let that single 
perceivced design flaw stop me from purchsasing one...ikndeed, had I the 
$$$ to spasre, one would be sitting here on my deslk at this very moment).

  My complaint is the number of "add-on" moduels needed to support the 
entire range of AVR family processors.  By the time you have purchsased 
the entire set of "expansion" modules, you have over $700 invested.  It 
is now starting to be priced more like other maker'ssystems. )-:  In 
particulkar, I am distressedby theri choice of support for DIP packaged 
processors.

  There is no need for there to be a requirement for additional 
ecxapnasion kits toi support *ANY* size of DIP processor.  I canpurchase 
a 48 pin DIP zero insertion force socket from Digikey for $25 (qty 1) 
which will accept and support anything from a 6 pin DIP through a 40 pin 
DIP, ineither .3 or.6" widths.  A rational and inexpesnive means of 
supporting a very wide range of processors.   I am disappointed thsat 
the engineers at Atmel didn't make such a choice. In general, I find 
their engineering innovative, intelligent and impressive.

   But then, one could also argue that I am looking a gift horse in the 
mouth.   In my opinion, Atmel is by far themost hobby friendly vendor of 
microcontorller and related chips in the marketplace today.  Their 
support and their incredibly generous sample policies make using Atmel 
processors for hobby projects a pure joy, at least for me.

(to be fair, my understnading is that Micorchip also has a faily lenient 
sampling policy, though, having no use for their products, I haven't 
checked that our for myself)  Also to be fair, MicorChip manufactures a 
wide range of non-processor products, mostly in support of embedded 
processor development.  Signal converters, op amps, sensors, etc., etc., 
and some with very impressive specifications.   WHile I may disparage 
the PIC line (mostly because the architecture is rooted inthe 1970s), 
MiceroChip is a quality, profesisonal company, provbiding high quality, 
well designed components to the industry.,  I can get a little carried 
away with my technical criticisms, sometimes.

>could you recommend some good sites/links (beside this one of course)
>for me to read up on?
>  
>
   Googlefor AVR.  There are HUNDREDS of web sites out there.  Watch at 
the bottom of the pages you visit for the AVR WEb Ring, asnd join it.   
www.avrfreaks.net is a superb (if sometimes chaotic) source of AVR and 
AVR related informaiton and resources.   And don't be a stranger to 
Atmel's website.  I have downloaded virtualkly every AVR related 
document they offer.  In general, their Applications Notesd are well 
written and highly informative.  Likewise their Data Sheets,  (don't 
underestimate the educaitonal value of data sheets, by the by.  I always 
read thme cover to cover, sewveral times, when starting with a new 
device).  My only minnor quibble is that the company's German roots show 
through sometimes.  Atmel's publicaitons have been my first encounter 
with "German English" (similar in principal to the Japanese English we 
often see in instructions or printed matter in products made in Japan, 
and, I suspect, for similar reasons). Sometimes the syntax of a sentence 
can really throw you on first reading.  Indeed, sometimes the syntax 
leads to amusing reading.

  Never the less, the quality and literacy of their publicaitons is VERY 
high.  (I will disgree again here toward MicroChip.  Despite the fact 
that MicroChip[ is a "native" American company, where Atmel is a German 
company, I find the quality and iun particular the :"literateness" of 
their publication to be inferior to those of Atmel, and frnakly, I find 
it difficult to locate the informaiton I am seeking in most of their 
docuemnts.  ut that could just be me)

   As for whicxh chip to start with, I think the better question for you 
would be:  what sort of project do I wish to start with?  Select the AVR 
which is appropriate to your project. If that is an 8 pin ATTINY11, so 
be it.  If it is a 144 pin ATMEGA, so be it.  It's just more pins, which 
means more I/O functions.  it's not  not more "difficult".  If you can 
successfully implement a project using the smallest ATTINY11, you 
canjust as well successfulky implememntn a project using the largest, 
most powerful ATMEGA processor.

   BTW, take a look a t the newest memebers of the ATTINY family, the 
ATTINY 24/44/84.  New pavckage outline for Atmel:  14 pin DIP (also 
soic, and some other SMT formats).  Most intresting.  The ATTINY84 has 4 
K of Flash, 512 bytes of SRAM, 512 bytes of EEPROM, 8 channels DAC, and 
an onchip temperaturesensor, and costs, IIRC, $1.14 qty 1.  20Mhz 
maximum clock rate, BTW.

  I **DO** wish Atmel would recognize the need for faster AVRs.  We 
know, form the AT76USB370 that they can make AVRs that run at higher 
speeds (48 Mhz clock, offerint 48 MIPs of performance).  I cannot fathom 
why they don';t introduce soem 40 to 60 Mhz chips.  i am quite sure 
theye's a market for them (besides which, it isn;t all that difficukt 
oir expensive to push 20 Mhz designs to 40 or 80 Mhz, these days.  Just 
scale down the geometry a bit, mostly).

  Well, I'm starting to ramble now.....bye


tom