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Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by behrooz_hariri

Problem:

Industrial contactors make such a high noise (surge) that occasionally
cause these symptoms on AVR MCU :

1- LCD blink,  unrecognized characters

2- Flash rom bitmap change

3- EEPROM change or erasure

Explanation:

My atmega16, controls 3-phase contactors
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor>   through 5V relays which are
using ULN2803. As chokes,  I wound about 10 turn of  wire over a 8mm
diameter ferrite rod taken from AM radio antenna.  So, MCU commands to
ULN, it activates 5V relays, and after the rod choke, contactors (in
another metal case) are trigged.  I used the same (one) rod for all
input/output lines in controller box. This made the situation much
better, yet I get the same problem after 100-200 cycle of contactor work
(for exaple after a 5 hours of work).

My Understaing:

  I guess when 220V AC sine wave gets it peack, and contactors is
released at the same moment, the maximum spark is created and it
reflects back through the output wire to MCU. Maybe some radiowave is
also made, so I put the whole 220V contactors in a seperate metal case.

Question:

1- What is the real frequency of this noise/spark/surge, and its
voltage? If I know it, I can manage to attenuate it to tolerable level.

2- How can I improve the situation? Maybe a low-pass filter do the job
(or complete the isolation)?

3- Is there a web link to information regarding contactor surge
reduction? I couldn't find any.      I probably can not find commercial
surge killers, so please teach me how to make one with electronic parts.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AVR-Chat] Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "behrooz_hariri" <behrooz_hariri@yahoo.com>
To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 9:53 AM
Subject: [AVR-Chat] Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical 
approach


>
> Problem:
>
> Industrial contactors make such a high noise (surge) that occasionally
> cause these symptoms on AVR MCU :
>
> 1- LCD blink,  unrecognized characters
>
> 2- Flash rom bitmap change
>
> 3- EEPROM change or erasure
>
> Explanation:
>
> My atmega16, controls 3-phase contactors
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor>   through 5V relays which are
> using ULN2803. As chokes,  I wound about 10 turn of  wire over a 8mm
> diameter ferrite rod taken from AM radio antenna.  So, MCU commands to
> ULN, it activates 5V relays, and after the rod choke, contactors (in
> another metal case) are trigged.  I used the same (one) rod for all
> input/output lines in controller box. This made the situation much
> better, yet I get the same problem after 100-200 cycle of contactor work
> (for exaple after a 5 hours of work).
>
> My Understaing:
>
>  I guess when 220V AC sine wave gets it peack, and contactors is
> released at the same moment, the maximum spark is created and it
> reflects back through the output wire to MCU. Maybe some radiowave is
> also made, so I put the whole 220V contactors in a seperate metal case.
>
> Question:
>
> 1- What is the real frequency of this noise/spark/surge, and its
> voltage? If I know it, I can manage to attenuate it to tolerable level.
>
> 2- How can I improve the situation? Maybe a low-pass filter do the job
> (or complete the isolation)?
>
> 3- Is there a web link to information regarding contactor surge
> reduction? I couldn't find any.      I probably can not find commercial
> surge killers, so please teach me how to make one with electronic parts.

AVX TransGuards.

Leon

Re: [AVR-Chat] Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Roy E. Burrage

Behrooz,

The problem with rfi/emi is that it's more of an art than a science.  
Not only do you have a static (voltage) component, but you also have a 
magnetic component...there is conducted and radiated component.  The 
noise generated is also broad band, which means it has frequency 
components covering a very broad frequency spectrum.

I try to do at least the following as general practice:

1.  Separate all signal lines from the power lines.
2.  Do not run control (power/load) and signal lines parallel to one 
another, perpendicular is good if possible.
3.  You should be able to find adequate inductors (chokes) for your 
control lines at about any electronic parts house.  Try Mouser or 
Digi-Key, just make sure you're using one that is large enough to handle 
your contactor coil current.  There are several manufacturers of these.
4.  If you have the money, it might be a good idea to use a transformer 
to isolate your contactor coils from the power lines...contactor loads 
too.  This might be held out as a last resort.
5.  You might also consider putting RC snubbers across your contactor 
coils.  The contactor manufacturer will have information and 
recommendations for this.
6.  Have you thought about your 5 volt relay contacts?  It might be a 
good idea to put RC snubbers across these too.
7.  Your contactor manufacturer will also have recommendations for RC 
snubbers across your contactor/load contacts.

Anything you can do to reduce arcing and sparking across relay/contactor 
contacts will be a good idea.

Since you have your contactors mounted in a separate enclosure, is it 
metal?  Steel is your friend when you're switching high currents, 
magnetic pulse.

Not knowing how far along your design process is at this point, have you 
thought about putting your control (5V) relays in the same enclosure 
with your contactors?  That way you only have low currents in your 
electronics enclosure, which is much easier to protect from 
transients/rfi/emi influences.

Are your electronics mounted in a metal enclosure?

Hope this helps.


REB


behrooz_hariri wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Problem:
>
>Industrial contactors make such a high noise (surge) that occasionally
>cause these symptoms on AVR MCU :
>
>1- LCD blink,  unrecognized characters
>
>2- Flash rom bitmap change
>
>3- EEPROM change or erasure
>
>Explanation:
>
>My atmega16, controls 3-phase contactors
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor>   through 5V relays which are
>using ULN2803. As chokes,  I wound about 10 turn of  wire over a 8mm
>diameter ferrite rod taken from AM radio antenna.  So, MCU commands to
>ULN, it activates 5V relays, and after the rod choke, contactors (in
>another metal case) are trigged.  I used the same (one) rod for all
>input/output lines in controller box. This made the situation much
>better, yet I get the same problem after 100-200 cycle of contactor work
>(for exaple after a 5 hours of work).
>
>My Understaing:
>
>  I guess when 220V AC sine wave gets it peack, and contactors is
>released at the same moment, the maximum spark is created and it
>reflects back through the output wire to MCU. Maybe some radiowave is
>also made, so I put the whole 220V contactors in a seperate metal case.
>
>Question:
>
>1- What is the real frequency of this noise/spark/surge, and its
>voltage? If I know it, I can manage to attenuate it to tolerable level.
>
>2- How can I improve the situation? Maybe a low-pass filter do the job
>(or complete the isolation)?
>
>3- Is there a web link to information regarding contactor surge
>reduction? I couldn't find any.      I probably can not find commercial
>surge killers, so please teach me how to make one with electronic parts.
>
>
>  
>

Re: [AVR-Chat] Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Enki

On 8 Jan 2008 at 6:25, Roy E. Burrage wrote:

> 6.  Have you thought about your 5 volt relay contacts?  It might be a 
> good idea to put RC snubbers across these too.


	I'd use TRIACs with optocouplers here.
	Snubbers across the TRIACs, of course.
	Relay coils on the +5V line is not a good practice.

	BTW, are you sure the sparks are the culprit?

	Mark Jordan

Re: Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Behrooz

I think you are right, even with no power on contactors (just relays 
are on) the same problem occures time to time. 

May you send me a schematic (or web link) on using optocouplers 
along with TRIACs on AVR output pins? Am amazed with this optocoupler 
part. Seems interesting, and maybe a final solution?!

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Enki" <enkitec@...> wrote:
>
> On 8 Jan 2008 at 6:25, Roy E. Burrage wrote:
> 
> > 6.  Have you thought about your 5 volt relay contacts?  It might 
be a 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > good idea to put RC snubbers across these too.
> 
> 
> 	I'd use TRIACs with optocouplers here.
> 	Snubbers across the TRIACs, of course.
> 	Relay coils on the +5V line is not a good practice.
> 
> 	BTW, are you sure the sparks are the culprit?
> 
> 	Mark Jordan
>

Re: Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Behrooz

In my previous attempt (and research) I did exactly what you 
recommend and it worked good (big 105 400V caps). However, in the 
final package of the device, I surprisingly found the 'traces' of the 
same old symptom. By the way, my 1/2 watt carbon resistors make smoke 
and burn! Anyway, I still have them parallel (and as close as 
possible) to contactors. Not enough, apparently. 

Today I found a part (not all though) of problem comes from 5V 
relays. Maybe a solid state relay can help. Suggestions?

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, maria mastik <maman_barghi2000@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi
>   Simply connect a 1uF 600V (or 400V) ceramic capasitor in parallel 
with the input chock of each contactor (if you have more than one); 
this will eleminate the problem compleately.
>    
>   anothe way is to connect a 670 Ohm resistor with the capasitor in 
series and then connect thease in parallel to chock of contactor.
>    
>   the masures which I mentiond  above (I mean 670 OHM and 1 uF) are 
through industerial experiance.
>    
>   Regards
>   Mashaghi.
> 
> behrooz_hariri <behrooz_hariri@...> wrote:
>           
> Problem:
> 
> Industrial contactors make such a high noise (surge) that 
occasionally
> cause these symptoms on AVR MCU :
> 
> 1- LCD blink, unrecognized characters
> 
> 2- Flash rom bitmap change
> 
> 3- EEPROM change or erasure
> 
> Explanation:
> 
> My atmega16, controls 3-phase contactors
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor> through 5V relays which are
> using ULN2803. As chokes, I wound about 10 turn of wire over a 8mm
> diameter ferrite rod taken from AM radio antenna. So, MCU commands 
to
> ULN, it activates 5V relays, and after the rod choke, contactors (in
> another metal case) are trigged. I used the same (one) rod for all
> input/output lines in controller box. This made the situation much
> better, yet I get the same problem after 100-200 cycle of contactor 
work
> (for exaple after a 5 hours of work).
> 
> My Understaing:
> 
> I guess when 220V AC sine wave gets it peack, and contactors is
> released at the same moment, the maximum spark is created and it
> reflects back through the output wire to MCU. Maybe some radiowave 
is
> also made, so I put the whole 220V contactors in a seperate metal 
case.
> 
> Question:
> 
> 1- What is the real frequency of this noise/spark/surge, and its
> voltage? If I know it, I can manage to attenuate it to tolerable 
level.
> 
> 2- How can I improve the situation? Maybe a low-pass filter do the 
job
> (or complete the isolation)?
> 
> 3- Is there a web link to information regarding contactor surge
> reduction? I couldn't find any. I probably can not find commercial
> surge killers, so please teach me how to make one with electronic 
parts.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>                          
> 
>        
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [AVR-Chat] Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by maria mastik

Hi
  Simply connect a 1uF 600V (or 400V) ceramic capasitor in parallel with the input chock of each contactor (if you have more than one); this will eleminate the problem compleately.
   
  anothe way is to connect a 670 Ohm resistor with the capasitor in series and then connect thease in parallel to chock of contactor.
   
  the masures which I mentiond  above (I mean 670 OHM and 1 uF) are through industerial experiance.
   
  Regards
  Mashaghi.

behrooz_hariri <behrooz_hariri@yahoo.com> wrote:
          
Problem:

Industrial contactors make such a high noise (surge) that occasionally
cause these symptoms on AVR MCU :

1- LCD blink, unrecognized characters

2- Flash rom bitmap change

3- EEPROM change or erasure

Explanation:

My atmega16, controls 3-phase contactors
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor> through 5V relays which are
using ULN2803. As chokes, I wound about 10 turn of wire over a 8mm
diameter ferrite rod taken from AM radio antenna. So, MCU commands to
ULN, it activates 5V relays, and after the rod choke, contactors (in
another metal case) are trigged. I used the same (one) rod for all
input/output lines in controller box. This made the situation much
better, yet I get the same problem after 100-200 cycle of contactor work
(for exaple after a 5 hours of work).

My Understaing:

I guess when 220V AC sine wave gets it peack, and contactors is
released at the same moment, the maximum spark is created and it
reflects back through the output wire to MCU. Maybe some radiowave is
also made, so I put the whole 220V contactors in a seperate metal case.

Question:

1- What is the real frequency of this noise/spark/surge, and its
voltage? If I know it, I can manage to attenuate it to tolerable level.

2- How can I improve the situation? Maybe a low-pass filter do the job
(or complete the isolation)?

3- Is there a web link to information regarding contactor surge
reduction? I couldn't find any. I probably can not find commercial
surge killers, so please teach me how to make one with electronic parts.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                         

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Enki

On 8 Jan 2008 at 14:14, Behrooz wrote:

> I think you are right, even with no power on contactors (just relays 
> are on) the same problem occures time to time. 
> 
> May you send me a schematic (or web link) on using optocouplers 
> along with TRIACs on AVR output pins? Am amazed with this optocoupler 
> part. Seems interesting, and maybe a final solution?!
> 


  ----------

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  moc3020.gif
     Date:  4 Feb 2001, 14:37
     Size:  3418 bytes.
     Type:  Unknown


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Behrooz

Enki, please send your file moc3020.gif to "Files" section of Yahoo! 
Group. No link is provided so I didn't receive it.

Tnx,
Behrooz 
--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Enki" <enkitec@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> On 8 Jan 2008 at 14:14, Behrooz wrote:
> 
> > I think you are right, even with no power on contactors (just 
relays 
> > are on) the same problem occures time to time. 
> > 
> > May you send me a schematic (or web link) on using optocouplers 
> > along with TRIACs on AVR output pins? Am amazed with this 
optocoupler 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > part. Seems interesting, and maybe a final solution?!
> > 
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
> 
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  moc3020.gif
>      Date:  4 Feb 2001, 14:37
>      Size:  3418 bytes.
>      Type:  Unknown
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Behrooz

Got It in my mailbox. Tnx
--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Behrooz" <behrooz_hariri@...> wrote:
>
> Enki, please send your file moc3020.gif to "Files" section of 
Yahoo! 
> Group. No link is provided so I didn't receive it.
> 
> Tnx,
> Behrooz 
> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Enki" <enkitec@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 8 Jan 2008 at 14:14, Behrooz wrote:
> > 
> > > I think you are right, even with no power on contactors (just 
> relays 
> > > are on) the same problem occures time to time. 
> > > 
> > > May you send me a schematic (or web link) on using optocouplers 
> > > along with TRIACs on AVR output pins? Am amazed with this 
> optocoupler 
> > > part. Seems interesting, and maybe a final solution?!
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> >   ----------
> > 
> > The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> > prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> > If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
> > you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> > If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for 
assistance.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> >    ---- File information -----------
> >      File:  moc3020.gif
> >      Date:  4 Feb 2001, 14:37
> >      Size:  3418 bytes.
> >      Type:  Unknown
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Roy E. Burrage

MOC3020 is that part number Behrooz.  You should be able to find it with 
a google search.

We also use MOC3040 optocouplers here.  They incorporate a zero-crossing 
circuit to reduce noise.  The MOC3020 may also do this.


REB


Behrooz wrote:

>Enki, please send your file moc3020.gif to "Files" section of Yahoo! 
>Group. No link is provided so I didn't receive it.
>
>Tnx,
>Behrooz 
>--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Enki" <enkitec@...> wrote:
>  
>
>>
>>
>>On 8 Jan 2008 at 14:14, Behrooz wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I think you are right, even with no power on contactors (just 
>>>      
>>>
>relays 
>  
>
>>>are on) the same problem occures time to time. 
>>>
>>>May you send me a schematic (or web link) on using optocouplers 
>>>along with TRIACs on AVR output pins? Am amazed with this 
>>>      
>>>
>optocoupler 
>  
>
>>>part. Seems interesting, and maybe a final solution?!
>>>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [AVR-Chat] Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical approach

2008-01-08 by Philippe Habib

Can you substitute your contactors with zero crossing solid state relays?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Roy E. Burrage
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 3:26 AM
To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AVR-Chat] Dealing with 3-phase contactor sparks - Practical
approach

Behrooz,

The problem with rfi/emi is that it's more of an art than a science.  
Not only do you have a static (voltage) component, but you also have a 
magnetic component...there is conducted and radiated component.  The 
noise generated is also broad band, which means it has frequency 
components covering a very broad frequency spectrum.

I try to do at least the following as general practice:

1.  Separate all signal lines from the power lines.
2.  Do not run control (power/load) and signal lines parallel to one 
another, perpendicular is good if possible.
3.  You should be able to find adequate inductors (chokes) for your 
control lines at about any electronic parts house.  Try Mouser or 
Digi-Key, just make sure you're using one that is large enough to handle 
your contactor coil current.  There are several manufacturers of these.
4.  If you have the money, it might be a good idea to use a transformer 
to isolate your contactor coils from the power lines...contactor loads 
too.  This might be held out as a last resort.
5.  You might also consider putting RC snubbers across your contactor 
coils.  The contactor manufacturer will have information and 
recommendations for this.
6.  Have you thought about your 5 volt relay contacts?  It might be a 
good idea to put RC snubbers across these too.
7.  Your contactor manufacturer will also have recommendations for RC 
snubbers across your contactor/load contacts.

Anything you can do to reduce arcing and sparking across relay/contactor 
contacts will be a good idea.

Since you have your contactors mounted in a separate enclosure, is it 
metal?  Steel is your friend when you're switching high currents, 
magnetic pulse.

Not knowing how far along your design process is at this point, have you 
thought about putting your control (5V) relays in the same enclosure 
with your contactors?  That way you only have low currents in your 
electronics enclosure, which is much easier to protect from 
transients/rfi/emi influences.

Are your electronics mounted in a metal enclosure?

Hope this helps.


REB


behrooz_hariri wrote:

>Problem:
>
>Industrial contactors make such a high noise (surge) that occasionally
>cause these symptoms on AVR MCU :
>
>1- LCD blink,  unrecognized characters
>
>2- Flash rom bitmap change
>
>3- EEPROM change or erasure
>
>Explanation:
>
>My atmega16, controls 3-phase contactors
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor>   through 5V relays which are
>using ULN2803. As chokes,  I wound about 10 turn of  wire over a 8mm
>diameter ferrite rod taken from AM radio antenna.  So, MCU commands to
>ULN, it activates 5V relays, and after the rod choke, contactors (in
>another metal case) are trigged.  I used the same (one) rod for all
>input/output lines in controller box. This made the situation much
>better, yet I get the same problem after 100-200 cycle of contactor work
>(for exaple after a 5 hours of work).
>
>My Understaing:
>
>  I guess when 220V AC sine wave gets it peack, and contactors is
>released at the same moment, the maximum spark is created and it
>reflects back through the output wire to MCU. Maybe some radiowave is
>also made, so I put the whole 220V contactors in a seperate metal case.
>
>Question:
>
>1- What is the real frequency of this noise/spark/surge, and its
>voltage? If I know it, I can manage to attenuate it to tolerable level.
>
>2- How can I improve the situation? Maybe a low-pass filter do the job
>(or complete the isolation)?
>
>3- Is there a web link to information regarding contactor surge
>reduction? I couldn't find any.      I probably can not find commercial
>surge killers, so please teach me how to make one with electronic parts.
>
>
>  
>


 
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