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OT- circuit board assembly question?

OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-07 by Richard Cooke

Hi Folks,

Is there a rule of thumb for estimating the cost of getting circuit
boards assembled?  I have a board that is about 1" x 1" with 25
surface mount parts - most of these are standard 0603 resistors and
caps.  Does anybody know what a per part cost I might be able to use
for estimating the cost if I'm going to get 500 to 1000 of these made?
Any guesses? 

I got one official quote for $19.50 each which almost made me fall off
my chair.  The 500 piece cost for the electonic parts from Digi-key is
about $4.20 so asking for $15.30/ea $500 qty) to put the parts on the
boards seems excessive.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Richard Cooke
Lake Forest, CA USA

Re: OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-07 by Don Kinzer

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Cooke" <rcooke@...> wrote:
> Is there a rule of thumb for estimating the
> cost of getting circuit boards assembled?
I just went through the process of getting quotes from assembly houses 
in the Portland, Oregon area for 1000 of a board of similar 
size/density.  The quotes were all over the map from a few dollars to 
nearly $20.  I suspect it depends a lot on how badly they want your 
business.

Several companies told me that for "turnkey" builds, where they buy 
the parts and deliver finished boards, they mark up the parts 100%.

I'm guessing that you could probably get it done in China for well 
under $1.  The problem, of course, is finding a reputable company that 
you'd want to do business with.

Don Kinzer

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-07 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Don Kinzer" <dkinzer@easystreet.net>
To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 12:37 AM
Subject: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT- circuit board assembly question?


> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Cooke" <rcooke@...> wrote:
>> Is there a rule of thumb for estimating the
>> cost of getting circuit boards assembled?
> I just went through the process of getting quotes from assembly houses 
> in the Portland, Oregon area for 1000 of a board of similar 
> size/density.  The quotes were all over the map from a few dollars to 
> nearly $20.  I suspect it depends a lot on how badly they want your 
> business.
> 
> Several companies told me that for "turnkey" builds, where they buy 
> the parts and deliver finished boards, they mark up the parts 100%.
> 
> I'm guessing that you could probably get it done in China for well 
> under $1.  The problem, of course, is finding a reputable company that 
> you'd want to do business with.

Most Chinese companies won't be interested in such a small quantity.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@btinternet.com
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [AVR-Chat] OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-08 by James Wagner

On Mar 7, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Richard Cooke wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Is there a rule of thumb for estimating the cost of getting circuit
> boards assembled? I have a board that is about 1" x 1" with 25
> surface mount parts - most of these are standard 0603 resistors and
> caps. Does anybody know what a per part cost I might be able to use
> for estimating the cost if I'm going to get 500 to 1000 of these made?
> Any guesses?
>
> I got one official quote for $19.50 each which almost made me fall off
> my chair. The 500 piece cost for the electonic parts from Digi-key is
> about $4.20 so asking for $15.30/ea $500 qty) to put the parts on the
> boards seems excessive.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Richard Cooke
> Lake Forest, CA USA
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AVR-Chat] OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-08 by James Wagner

On Mar 7, 2008, at 4:45 PM, James Wagner wrote:

>
> On Mar 7, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Richard Cooke wrote:
>
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > Is there a rule of thumb for estimating the cost of getting circuit
> > boards assembled? I have a board that is about 1" x 1" with 25
> > surface mount parts - most of these are standard 0603 resistors and
> > caps. Does anybody know what a per part cost I might be able to use
> > for estimating the cost if I'm going to get 500 to 1000 of these  
> made?
> > Any guesses?
> >
> > I got one official quote for $19.50 each which almost made me fall  
> off
> > my chair. The 500 piece cost for the electonic parts from Digi-key  
> is
> > about $4.20 so asking for $15.30/ea $500 qty) to put the parts on  
> the
> > boards seems excessive.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Richard Cooke
> > Lake Forest, CA USA
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 

Yes, the non-text portion of this message was removed, but so was the  
reply text!

Trying again:

If they purchase the parts, they will charge you for their time, as  
well as the cost of the money.

They will charge you for programming the pick-place machine

They will charge you for the solder screen, if they do that (that is  
somewhat expensive) or the cost of programming a solder past  
application machine.

They may require some DFM rule checking before the board is ordered  
and will charge you for that.

If they order the boards, they will charge you the cost of the money,  
again.

If you want to get a handle on the NRE vs per unit, also get an  
esiimate for 1K. Almost all of the increment will be per unit assembly  
cost., You can use that and the original estimate to figure the  
effective NRE you are being charged.

Jim Wagner
Oregon Research Electronics



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [SPAM] Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-08 by John Samperi

At 11:58 AM 8/03/2008, you wrote:
>Most Chinese companies won't be interested in such a small quantity.

What about someone like EzPCB? They do assembly also.
http://www.ezpcb.com/

Reputable and trustworthy? I guess it depends on how much
money anyone can make out of copying something.....

I'm just getting 50 blank pcbs from them. They are supposed to
be of good quality.

Regards

John Samperi

********************************************************
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
11 Brokenwood Place Baulkham Hills, NSW 2153 AUSTRALIA
Tel. (02) 9674-6495       Fax (02) 9674-8745
Email: john@ampertronics.com.au
Website  http://www.ampertronics.com.au
*Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
********************************************************

Re: OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-08 by Richard Cooke

Bob,

Thanks for such a detailed answer.  This sure gives me a lot to think
about.  But, do you think that with a board with 25 components (mostly
0603) $15 is a reasonable cost for the CM to assemble the boards if
they buy the parts in 500 quantities?  There is no extra electrical
testing just a visual.


Thanks again,

Richard Cooke
Lake Forest, CA USA

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, Bob Paddock <bob.paddock@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Friday 07 March 2008 07:27:31 pm Richard Cooke wrote:
> 
> > Is there a rule of thumb for estimating the cost of getting circuit
> > boards assembled? 
> 
> In a past life I worked for a large Contract Manufacture,
> http://www.matrc.com .  I don't mean this to a plug for them,
> but the tour of the place is helpful for the discusion:
> 
> http://www.matric.com/tour.html
> http://www.matric.com/info/tour/smt.htm
>

Re: [AVR-Chat] OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-08 by Bob Paddock

On Friday 07 March 2008 07:27:31 pm Richard Cooke wrote:

> Is there a rule of thumb for estimating the cost of getting circuit
> boards assembled? 

In a past life I worked for a large Contract Manufacture,
http://www.matrc.com .  I don't mean this to a plug for them,
but the tour of the place is helpful for the discusion:

http://www.matric.com/tour.html
http://www.matric.com/info/tour/smt.htm

To a CM it is all about *Time*.  When it comes to parts, the actually part 
cost is really insignificant as far as cost contribution goes.   Most of the 
cost goes to the time it takes to setup and teardown.

For a broad brush overview of cost steps:

One shot fee for getting your project into the system.  Someone
has to enter your BOM, and schedule into the amourphys blob
known as "The System".  Any change that you do triggers
a recalculation, that you either payfor or is amortized
across your boards.  Every future order you place will have
a small "trigger few" to pay for someone to enter your order.

Included in that is a  fee for someone to do a time analyze of the number of 
operations that your project will require.  A unit time value is assigned to 
each operation, and each operation has a cost, that is, as far
as I know, calculated by Magick (All CM's use Magick for this step
to my knowledge).

If you supply the parts there will be fees for entering a carrying
fee per new part number into The System.  Some cost analysis guru at GM,
long ago, decided to simply have a number in The System carries
a charge of $50 or so per year.  The accountants just love
to beat up the engineering department for "we have to many
parts in the warehouse".  Company owner wants to keep
inventory turnover high.  Also cost for physically getting
your parts into The System, such has putting them
in the warehouse, typing in the data etc.

There will be a scrapping fee to get your stuff
out of The System if you take your project someplace
else.

Those None Recurring Engineering (NRE) fees you either
pay for up front, or it is amortized across the number of boards.
This is why the range can seem so different between different
CMs.  Some hide the fees, some don't.

Also when you supply the parts the price of each part
will be market up by a *minimum* of 33% (More Guru
calculations).  If you don't mark the price up by
this amount you lose money each time you touch the part.
You are changed for the use of the warehouse space,
like renting a storage unit.

Now lets say you let the CM supply the parts.  In general
this will get you a lower per part cost for the commodity parts.
As they will be using 100,000 0.1 uF 0603 caps a day,
the pick and place machine will have that loaded.
So you don't have to pay for loading your reel of
much smaller volume part.  Also the CM will have
negotiated a much better price than you got
from Digikey.  The downside here is that you lose
some measure of control, which can be a problem
if you have to meet UL/MSHA/FDA etc. regulations.

Which reminds me there will be extera charges
for projects that involve the pain of FDA paperwork,
such a per lot tracking etc.  Other acronyms
apply as well, UL, FCC etc.

There is a fee for having the solder paste stencil made.

Now that the NRE's are out of the way, lets build
a Thousand Widgets.

Someone answers the phone and enters
an order into The System to build a Thousand Widgets.

The System checks the warehouse to see if all
of the parts area available.  Your order
is then routed to Purchasing to get the parts
that are not available ordered, or routed
to planing to get your order into the build
que.

When your build hits the top of the que:

Someone pulls the parts from the warehouse,
at the minimum your PCB; time.

Your bareboards are put in an oven and baked to drive out any moisture,
you pay the handling and electricity; time.

Your parts are loaded on the Pick&Place machine; time.

The board go from the oven to SMT Assembly; time.

Someone pulls your stencil out of the rack and puts it in the paste machine.  
Past is applied to your board; time.

Your board is put into the Pick&Place and your parts are mounted; electricity 
and time.

Your board then goes through the IR reflow oven for soldering; electricity and 
time.

The boards are then cleaned; fluids and time.

Any of your parts left on the P&P are removed, and put
back in the warehouse, when Widget #1000 comes out
the end of the machine; time.

The stencil is cleaned.  You pay for whatever the cleaning
fluid is and time.

The stencil is put back in the rack; time.

If your boards are in a array, they are then cut apart.
It is cheaper to build arrays, but it adds this cutting fee; time.

If there are parts that could not be mounted in the P&P machine
they are done by hand, or put through the wave solder machine,
then cleaned a second time.  There is a big hit in costs for
anyting done by hand such as connectors, transformers,
cable assemblies etc. Time.

The boards then go to Quality Control for the level of inspection
that you paid for.  Simple visual to full functional test.  Time

Boards leave QC and go to shipping where they are put
in Anti-Static bags and cardboard boxes and shipped off
to you.  Time.

You pay the shipping one way or the other.

There could also be Added Value items such as your boards
are put in an enclosure.  You pay for someone to do it right
down to the number of seconds it takes to tighten down the
screws.

By now you probably have gotten the idea that Time is important.
When you were looking up stuff in the DigiKey catalog were you
billing yourself the time it took to do it?  Probably not...

>  The 500 piece cost for the electonic parts from Digi-key is
> about $4.20

Did you include the Anti-Static Bag, the yellow Anti-Static
Sticker that seals the bag, the solder (price of metals is going up every 
day), and any board cleaning fluid chemicals / deionized-water in that price 
of $4.20, and the time to do those items?  I didn't think so...

A good CM knows the cost of every operation and will be around a long time.
A new CM doesn't know his costs.  Hence the wide variation in CM quotes.

Matric developed a reputation for being a high price CM, and customers
would leave based on cost, rather than value.  However many of them would 
return after a while saying "we got what we paid for", and never left again.

In the end my advice is to analyze the value of the services you are paying 
for, not the cost of the parts.

-- 
                http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
 http://www.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/
                 http://www.unusualresearch.com/

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: OT- circuit board assembly question?

2008-03-08 by Bob Paddock

On Friday 07 March 2008 11:00:42 pm Richard Cooke wrote:

> Thanks for such a detailed answer.  This sure gives me a lot to think
> about.  But, do you think that with a board with 25 components (mostly
> 0603) $15 is a reasonable cost for the CM to assemble the boards if
> they buy the parts in 500 quantities?  There is no extra electrical
> testing just a visual.

There really is no certain answer to that question unfortunately.
At somepoint for low quantity of parts/low volume boards you run up againest
the fixed overhead costs of the CM for heating the building, keeping the 
lights on, and paying the employees.  At that point it might cost $15
for a board with zero parts on it.  $15 might be that cost of overhead
in your region, where $15 might be high in my region, and low
in some other list members region.

I agree with  Robert Adsett, pick a CM near you where you
can go visit and see what you're really paying for.
Ask them what their defect rate is, as no CM will ever make
a perfect product 100% of the time, and ask what their
rate of on-time-delivery rate has been.   For a Defibrillator
the defect rate had better be vanishingly small, compared
to something simple like a LED Luminary (more often incorrectly
called a Flash Light).

In the best of the places you'll see lots of Anti-Static Mats, Anti-Static 
Wrist Straps, Anti-Static Heal Straps, Anti-Static Smocks, it will be clean,
controlled humidity environment and it will be well lit.  The boards will be 
placed in or on Anti-Static carriers and in, not on, Anti-Static bags.  At 
the appropriate build points.

If at any point you see boards or parts in a pile, unless you are sure they
are "junk", you don't want to use that CM.  If you see people handing
populated boards between them that are not in Anti-Static Carriers run out the
door and never look back.

If the *only* thing that maters is price then you really do
have to look at China.  While I was working for the CM
we did a contract design for the top-of-the-line Paint Ball Gun
company.  After we did a many thosand boards for them they
took the business to China.  They were getting assembled
boards for less than it costs us to buy the parts in high volumes.

The China business model is completely different than
what we find acceptable here in our culture.  The extremest example
I've heard of is where you offer to leave a pretty young family
member over night so you get a better price...


-- 
                http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
 http://www.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/
                 http://www.unusualresearch.com/

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