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Bus Distance

Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by Chuck Hackett

I would like to transfer data some distance (100 feet in one case, 400 feet in
another) between AVRs and I'm looking for the least complex, least expensive way
to accomplish this.  Environment:

1) Using facilities available on AVR processors (such as UART, TWI, etc.)

2) I have cable in the ground which is Telco grade, gel filled, direct bury
cable with 6 twisted pair

3) Speed is not critical.  Of course I'd like to go as fast as possible but I'm
willing to sacrifice speed to keep complexity/cost down ... Well, I'd rather not
go back to the 110 bps days!  :-)

4) Multimaster is desirable

I'm thinking that the solution will use some king of differential driver.

I was doing some reading about TWI but it's unclear to me if this works in this
situation.  The only thing I could find about distance limits was that the bus
capacitance must be below 400pf but I don't know the capacitance of my cable ...

BTW:  I think this forum is appropriate for this, if not, please let me know.

Suggestions?

Cheers,

Chuck Hackett
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck

Re: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by Robert Adsett

At 01:43 PM 10/29/04 -0500, you wrote:

>I would like to transfer data some distance (100 feet in one case, 400 feet in
>another) between AVRs and I'm looking for the least complex, least 
>expensive way
>to accomplish this.  Environment:
>
>1) Using facilities available on AVR processors (such as UART, TWI, etc.)
>
>2) I have cable in the ground which is Telco grade, gel filled, direct bury
>cable with 6 twisted pair
>
>3) Speed is not critical.  Of course I'd like to go as fast as possible 
>but I'm
>willing to sacrifice speed to keep complexity/cost down ... Well, I'd 
>rather not
>go back to the 110 bps days!  :-)
>
>4) Multimaster is desirable

RS-485?  Differential, multimaster possible , uses UART, drivers are 
relatively inexpensive and readily available, sounds like a good 
fit.  TWI/IIC is really meant for board scale distances although I 
understand people have driven it further.  There are several RS-485 SW 
protocols available and it's not hard to build your own.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,
be they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to
chew a radio signal. "

                         Kelvin Throop, III

Re: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by Mike F. Schwarzer

Hello Chuck,

> I would like to transfer data some distance (100
> feet in one case, 400 feet in another) between AVRs
> and I'm looking for the least complex, least
> expensive way to accomplish this....

Look at the MAX485/MAX487 RS-485 Drivers, or
if you like for DualTypes.
With an RS-485 Bus, you can go up to 100M with
125kBaud, at least that was tested be myself.

The Protocol depends on your Software, so its
also possible to have Multi Master Access, from
the AVR Side the simplest way is to use the UART.

mfg
mike


	

	
		
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Re: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by James Russo

Chuck,

    I too was going to suggest RS485.   I have used the Mavric-II boards 
with great success and just finished up a project which involved using  
RS485 on these units. They include all the hardware required and come at 
a reasonable cost. Check them out at: http://www.bdmicro.com/

Brian Dean who sells these boards (and is also a member on this list) 
also has a document which describes a RS485 protocol he designed. The 
code seems to also be available. Might be worth checking out at  
http://www.bdmicro.com/code/robin/

Good luck with your project.

-james

Chuck Hackett wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I would like to transfer data some distance (100 feet in one case, 400 
> feet in
> another) between AVRs and I'm looking for the least complex, least 
> expensive way
> to accomplish this.  Environment:
>
> 1) Using facilities available on AVR processors (such as UART, TWI, etc.)
>
> 2) I have cable in the ground which is Telco grade, gel filled, direct 
> bury
> cable with 6 twisted pair
>
> 3) Speed is not critical.  Of course I'd like to go as fast as 
> possible but I'm
> willing to sacrifice speed to keep complexity/cost down ... Well, I'd 
> rather not
> go back to the 110 bps days!  :-)
>
> 4) Multimaster is desirable
>
> I'm thinking that the solution will use some king of differential driver.
>
> I was doing some reading about TWI but it's unclear to me if this 
> works in this
> situation.  The only thing I could find about distance limits was that 
> the bus
> capacitance must be below 400pf but I don't know the capacitance of my 
> cable ...
>
> BTW:  I think this forum is appropriate for this, if not, please let 
> me know.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chuck Hackett
> "Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
> 7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
> http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck
>
>
>
>
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RE: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by Chuck Hackett

> From: James Russo
> 
>     I too was going to suggest RS485.   I have used the 
> Mavric-II boards 
> with great success and just finished up a project which involved using
> RS485 on these units. They include all the hardware required 
> and come at a reasonable cost. Check them out at: 
> http://www.bdmicro.com/
> 
> Brian Dean who sells these boards (and is also a member on 
> this list) also has a document which describes a RS485 
> protocol he designed. The code seems to also be available. 
> Might be worth checking out at http://www.bdmicro.com/code/robin/

Gee, might work great on the MAVRIC board I just received from Brian :-)

Cheers,

Chuck Hackett
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck

RE: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by Chuck Hackett

> From: Mike F. Schwarzer
> 
> ....
> Look at the MAX485/MAX487 RS-485 Drivers, or if you like for DualTypes.
> With an RS-485 Bus, you can go up to 100M with 125kBaud, at 
> least that was tested be myself.
> 
> The Protocol depends on your Software, so its also possible 
> to have Multi Master Access, from the AVR Side the simplest 
> way is to use the UART.

Thanks Mike,

I've downloaded the datasheet and it looks like a winner.

I was wondering about how to be sure the ends of the bus are terminated so as to
minimize reflections.  Is the best way to do this by connecting a scope (mine is
100mhz) and driving the line watching for reflections and adjusting the
termination for minimum reflections, or am I overcomplicating/oversimplifying
this?  I have no idea what the "characteristic impedance" of the cable in the
ground is ...

Cheers,

Chuck Hackett
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck

RE: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by Mike F. Schwarzer

Hi Chuck,

> I was wondering about how to be sure the ends of
> the bus are terminated so as to minimize
> reflections.  Is the best way to do this by
> connecting a scope (mine is 100mhz) and driving the
> line watching for reflections and adjusting the
> termination for minimum reflections, or am I
> overcomplicating/oversimplifying this?

I have used cheap ISDN Wires, with 10k Pullup/Pulldown
and 120R Line Termination. These R's I have used
only on one Side of the Line. In my experence with
that Chips you normaly need only the PullUps/Pulldowns
If you run in Troubles with your Line, the easiest
way is, to take an 10Turn Poti with 500R and just
try it. (In that way i have done ist).

mfg
mike



	

	
		
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Re: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by Jeffrey Engel

RS-485?  It should go that far and still have decent
bandwidth.  Drivers are relatively inexpensive as
well.

Have you a network picked out?  I've been looking at
HTH's S.N.A.P. (www.hth.com).

HTH,

Jeff Engel
--- Chuck Hackett <egroupscdh@WhiteTrout.net> wrote:

> 
> I would like to transfer data some distance (100
> feet in one case, 400 feet in
> another) between AVRs and I'm looking for the least
> complex, least expensive way
> to accomplish this.  Environment:
> 
> 1) Using facilities available on AVR processors
> (such as UART, TWI, etc.)
> 
> 2) I have cable in the ground which is Telco grade,
> gel filled, direct bury
> cable with 6 twisted pair
> 
> 3) Speed is not critical.  Of course I'd like to go
> as fast as possible but I'm
> willing to sacrifice speed to keep complexity/cost
> down ... Well, I'd rather not
> go back to the 110 bps days!  :-)
> 
> 4) Multimaster is desirable
> 
> I'm thinking that the solution will use some king of
> differential driver.
> 
> I was doing some reading about TWI but it's unclear
> to me if this works in this
> situation.  The only thing I could find about
> distance limits was that the bus
> capacitance must be below 400pf but I don't know the
> capacitance of my cable ...
> 
> BTW:  I think this forum is appropriate for this, if
> not, please let me know.
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chuck Hackett
> "Good judgment comes from experience, experience
> comes from bad judgment"
> 7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
> http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck


=====
Happiness is - positive intake manifold pressure.


		
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Re: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-29 by Reza

--- Chuck Hackett <egroupscdh@WhiteTrout.net> wrote:

> I would like to transfer data some distance (100
> feet in one case, 400 feet in
> another) between AVRs and I'm looking for the least
> complex, least expensive way
> to accomplish this.  Environment:
> 
> 1) Using facilities available on AVR processors
> (such as UART, TWI, etc.)
> 
> 2) I have cable in the ground which is Telco grade,
> gel filled, direct bury
> cable with 6 twisted pair
> 
> 3) Speed is not critical.  Of course I'd like to go
> as fast as possible but I'm
> willing to sacrifice speed to keep complexity/cost
> down ... Well, I'd rather not
> go back to the 110 bps days!  :-)
> 
> 4) Multimaster is desirable
> 
> I'm thinking that the solution will use some king of
> differential driver.
> 
> I was doing some reading about TWI but it's unclear
> to me if this works in this
> situation.  The only thing I could find about
> distance limits was that the bus
> capacitance must be below 400pf but I don't know the
> capacitance of my cable ...
> 
> BTW:  I think this forum is appropriate for this, if
> not, please let me know.
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chuck Hackett
> "Good judgment comes from experience, experience
> comes from bad judgment"
> 7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
> http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> 
Hi;

as I know (using Siemens documents) if you use RS232
(using MAX232) the distance is limited to 100 feet.
but Siemens also offered some other solutions:

signalling   noise-prtction dist(feet)   max-speed
----------------------------------------------------
RS232        somehow        100          9600
RS485        somehow        1500         9600
RS422        good           3500         upto 19200
CurrentLoop  best           3500         max of 9600

note: Siemens calls RS232 as V24, RS422 & RS485 as X27
and CurrentLoop as TTY.

in a very noisy environment the best solution is using
current loop (4, 20mA) one node in Active (current
generator) and the other in Passive (current
switcher/detector) mode.

but in steel making factory which I'm working, they
use commonly RS422(Siemens:X27) in low noise
environments, and CurrentLoop or TTY in high noise
env.

ofcouse you can make a network with these links. but
for RS422/X27 there is a limitation of 32 partners on
each link without repeater. for some applications see:

www.rs485.com

and see Texas Instruments products for RS422
interfacing.

otherwise if the environment is too noisy and you can
pay more money, there is some fiber_optic-RS232
switchs (eg: ADAM serias made by Advantech). or some
wireless equipments (upto 20miles, with a speed of
115K bps) but is very expensive.

good luck.
(and excuse me for poor english!)




		
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RE: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-30 by joseph torelli

We are developing a monoriting system where I work. There will be 2 runs of
1000'. We are using "Mega Brain" boards from ERE http://www.ere.co.th . They
have ATMega128 and (2) RS485 ports. We will connect a MegaBrain to a server
via rs232 and connect to other MegaBrain's via rs485. We are going to use a
"MODBUS" protocall for our setup.

JoeT
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Hackett [mailto:egroupscdh@WhiteTrout.net]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:07 PM
To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance



> From: Mike F. Schwarzer
>
> ....
> Look at the MAX485/MAX487 RS-485 Drivers, or if you like for DualTypes.
> With an RS-485 Bus, you can go up to 100M with 125kBaud, at
> least that was tested be myself.
>
> The Protocol depends on your Software, so its also possible
> to have Multi Master Access, from the AVR Side the simplest
> way is to use the UART.

Thanks Mike,

I've downloaded the datasheet and it looks like a winner.

I was wondering about how to be sure the ends of the bus are terminated so
as to
minimize reflections.  Is the best way to do this by connecting a scope
(mine is
100mhz) and driving the line watching for reflections and adjusting the
termination for minimum reflections, or am I
overcomplicating/oversimplifying
this?  I have no idea what the "characteristic impedance" of the cable in
the
ground is ...

Cheers,

Chuck Hackett
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck






Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-31 by MuRaT KaRaDeNiZ

Maxim has reduced slew rate rs485 transceivers which
work up to 250kbit/sec I think, and reflections or EMI
are greatly reduced in that way. Primitive
transceivers like 75176 have instead high slew rates
for being capable of transceiving 10mbit/sec for short
distances. Choosing ICs for the problem at hand will
give you best results.

Again if you see 32 as the max number of nodes low,
you can buy transceivers with 1/4 unit load (from
maxim), so you can connect in theory 128 nodes to the
bus.

is the ground dedicated to the communication as the
return path or do high power devices use that cable
for return too?


Murat Karadeniz
http://www7.brinkster.com/mukas



--- Reza <reza_agha@yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> --- Chuck Hackett <egroupscdh@WhiteTrout.net> wrote:
> 
> > I would like to transfer data some distance (100
> > feet in one case, 400 feet in
> > another) between AVRs and I'm looking for the
> least
> > complex, least expensive way
> > to accomplish this.  Environment:
> > 
> > 1) Using facilities available on AVR processors
> > (such as UART, TWI, etc.)
> > 
> > 2) I have cable in the ground which is Telco
> grade,
> > gel filled, direct bury
> > cable with 6 twisted pair
> > 
> > 3) Speed is not critical.  Of course I'd like to
> go
> > as fast as possible but I'm
> > willing to sacrifice speed to keep complexity/cost
> > down ... Well, I'd rather not
> > go back to the 110 bps days!  :-)
> > 
> > 4) Multimaster is desirable
> > 
> > I'm thinking that the solution will use some king
> of
> > differential driver.
> > 
> > I was doing some reading about TWI but it's
> unclear
> > to me if this works in this
> > situation.  The only thing I could find about
> > distance limits was that the bus
> > capacitance must be below 400pf but I don't know
> the
> > capacitance of my cable ...
> > 
> > BTW:  I think this forum is appropriate for this,
> if
> > not, please let me know.
> > 
> > Suggestions?
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Chuck Hackett
> > "Good judgment comes from experience, experience
> > comes from bad judgment"
> > 7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
> > http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> Hi;
> 
> as I know (using Siemens documents) if you use RS232
> (using MAX232) the distance is limited to 100 feet.
> but Siemens also offered some other solutions:
> 
> signalling   noise-prtction dist(feet)   max-speed
> ----------------------------------------------------
> RS232        somehow        100          9600
> RS485        somehow        1500         9600
> RS422        good           3500         upto 19200
> CurrentLoop  best           3500         max of 9600
> 
> note: Siemens calls RS232 as V24, RS422 & RS485 as
> X27
> and CurrentLoop as TTY.
> 
> in a very noisy environment the best solution is
> using
> current loop (4, 20mA) one node in Active (current
> generator) and the other in Passive (current
> switcher/detector) mode.
> 
> but in steel making factory which I'm working, they
> use commonly RS422(Siemens:X27) in low noise
> environments, and CurrentLoop or TTY in high noise
> env.
> 
> ofcouse you can make a network with these links. but
> for RS422/X27 there is a limitation of 32 partners
> on
> each link without repeater. for some applications
> see:
> 
> www.rs485.com
> 
> and see Texas Instruments products for RS422
> interfacing.
> 
> otherwise if the environment is too noisy and you
> can
> pay more money, there is some fiber_optic-RS232
> switchs (eg: ADAM serias made by Advantech). or some
> wireless equipments (upto 20miles, with a speed of
> 115K bps) but is very expensive.
> 
> good luck.
> (and excuse me for poor english!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download
> now. 
> http://messenger.yahoo.com
> 



		
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Re: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-31 by Mike F. Schwarzer

Hello,

> MuRaT KaRaDeNiZ <karademu@yahoo.com> schrieb:
> Maxim has reduced slew rate rs485 transceivers
> which work up to 250kbit/sec I think, and
> reflections or EMI are greatly reduced in that way.
> Primitive transceivers like 75176 have instead high
> slew rates for being capable of transceiving ... 

Some Add On's:
Maxim has Types with Slew Rates of 250kBit/s,
1MBit/s and 10MBit/s. The Types with lower
Baudrates are better for longer Distances, and/or
bader Lines.
Normaly they have also 487Types with 1/4Load, so
its possible to have 128 Devices per Bus.

mfg
mike


	

	
		
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Re: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-31 by rajesh parwani

i would suggest u for i2c bus or rs232 intrerface using rxd and txd pins.
although with suggested scheme ur some of the wires will be left out , u can use them for future development


Reza wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- Chuck Hackett wrote:

> I would like to transfer data some distance (100
> feet in one case, 400 feet in
> another) between AVRs and I'm looking for the least
> complex, least expensive way
> to accomplish this. Environment:
>
> 1) Using facilities available on AVR processors
> (such as UART, TWI, etc.)
>
> 2) I have cable in the ground which is Telco grade,
> gel filled, direct bury
> cable with 6 twisted pair
>
> 3) Speed is not critical. Of course I'd like to go
> as fast as possible but I'm
> willing to sacrifice speed to keep complexity/cost
> down ... Well, I'd rather not
> go back to the 110 bps days! :-)
>
> 4) Multimaster is desirable
>
> I'm thinking that the solution will use some king of
> differential driver.
>
> I was doing some reading about TWI but it's unclear
> to me if this works in this
> situation. The only thing I could find about
> distance limits was that the bus
> capacitance must be below 400pf but I don't know the
> capacitance of my cable ...
>
> BTW: I think this forum is appropriate for this, if
> not, please let me know.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chuck Hackett
> "Good judgment comes from experience, experience
> comes from bad judgment"
> 7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
> http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck
>
>
>
>
Hi;

as I know (using Siemens documents) if you use RS232
(using MAX232) the distance is limited to 100 feet.
but Siemens also offered some other solutions:

signalling noise-prtction dist(feet) max-speed
----------------------------------------------------
RS232 somehow 100 9600
RS485 somehow 1500 9600
RS422 good 3500 upto 19200
CurrentLoop best 3500 max of 9600

note: Siemens calls RS232 as V24, RS422 & RS485 as X27
and CurrentLoop as TTY.

in a very noisy environment the best solution is using
current loop (4, 20mA) one node in Active (current
generator) and the other in Passive (current
switcher/detector) mode.

but in steel making factory which I'm working, they
use commonly RS422(Siemens:X27) in low noise
environments, and CurrentLoop or TTY in high noise
env.

ofcouse you can make a network with these links. but
for RS422/X27 there is a limitation of 32 partners on
each link without repeater. for some applications see:

www.rs485.com

and see Texas Instruments products for RS422
interfacing.

otherwise if the environment is too noisy and you can
pay more money, there is some fiber_optic-RS232
switchs (eg: ADAM serias made by Advantech). or some
wireless equipments (upto 20miles, with a speed of
115K bps) but is very expensive.

good luck.
(and excuse me for poor english!)





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RE: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-31 by Chuck Hackett

> From: rajesh parwani
> 
> i would suggest u for i2c bus or rs232 intrerface using rxd 
> and txd pins.
> although with suggested scheme ur some of the wires will be 
> left out , u can use them for future development

I know RS-232 won't go the required 400 feet and I haven't seen where I2C will
go that far - or can one use RS-485 line drivers/receivers with I2C?

Cheers,

Chuck Hackett
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck

RE: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-31 by Robert Adsett

At 12:40 PM 10/31/04 -0600, you wrote:

> > From: rajesh parwani
> >
> > i would suggest u for i2c bus or rs232 intrerface using rxd
> > and txd pins.
> > although with suggested scheme ur some of the wires will be
> > left out , u can use them for future development
>
>I know RS-232 won't go the required 400 feet and I haven't seen where I2C will
>go that far - or can one use RS-485 line drivers/receivers with I2C?

Maybe, but your transmit speed would be limited by light speed 
considerations.  CAN has some similar limitations and a 400 foot bus would 
be limited to a max of 250kbits/sec (probably less).  I haven't studied IIC 
that closely but I suspect that the clock stretching requirement places the 
limit rather more severely.  The basic limit is the time for a signal to 
propagate from one end of the cable to the other and back along with the 
sum of the transceiver delays.  This must be less than the minimum pulse 
width + the time for the receiver to recognize the low and respond with the 
appropriate stretching. If you know those numbers then you can determine a 
maximum length for the bus.

On the other hand RS-485  serial type (UART) doesn't much care about signal 
speed (as long as reflections are minimized), except at the packet 
level.  As long as two transmitters don't attempt to communicate at the 
same time than the receivers simply receive the whole message.  You get a 
higher baud rate at the expense of having the protocol needing to either 
ensure that no two transmitters will be active at once or that some kind of 
collision detection is used to retry transmission.

Hmm, probably overkill but arcnet would be good for this with appropriate 
chip support to offload communications (speed up to 5mbits per sec, token 
passing).

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,
be they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to
chew a radio signal. "

                         Kelvin Throop, III

RE: [AVR-Chat] Bus Distance

2004-10-31 by Chuck Hackett

Thanks to all for the input on my long distance bus.  It's been a great help.

Hopefully I can get up to speed on the AVR to be able to contribute something in
return in the future.

Cheers,

Chuck Hackett
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck

ADC accuracy in ATmega8535

2004-11-02 by Andrew Lim

Hi there,

 

I'm using ADC interrupt mode in my prototype board. Everything is running now but I'm facing accuracy problem. Can someone help me? I need my accuracy to be +/- 0.5%.

 

1. I have my AVCC connected to Vcc. 

2. Aref not connected. 

3.Set free running mode

4.REFS1 = 0 , REFS0 = 0  (Choosed AVCC with external cap at Aref) -> what if I dun have caps coupled between AVCC and Aref? Will it affect the accuracy?

 

 

Thanks.

 

Andrew

 

			
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Re: [AVR-Chat] ADC accuracy in ATmega8535

2004-11-02 by Svenn Dahlstrøm

Hi Andrew
One way to get a good accuracy is to do a calibration.

Svenn :-)
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----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Lim
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:49 AM
Subject: [AVR-Chat] ADC accuracy in ATmega8535

Hi there,

I'm using ADC interrupt mode in my prototype board. Everything is running now but I'm facing accuracy problem. Can someone help me? I need my accuracy to be +/- 0.5%.

1. I have my AVCC connected to Vcc.

2. Aref not connected.

3.Set free running mode

4.REFS1 = 0 , REFS0 = 0 (Choosed AVCC with external cap at Aref) -> what if I dun have caps coupled between AVCC and Aref? Will it affect the accuracy?

Thanks.

Andrew

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RE: [AVR-Chat] ADC accuracy in ATmega8535

2004-11-02 by Larry Barello

Place a capacitor between Aref and ground (the analog ground).

The accuracy of the conversion is better than .5%, but depending upon your
VCC accuracy, your absolute accuracy won't be so good.  At room temperature
most +5v regulators are pretty good, but you definitely won't get the
accuracy over temp without an external, calibrated reference.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Lim [mailto:normaxcite@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 9:50 PM
To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AVR-Chat] ADC accuracy in ATmega8535


Hi there,



I'm using ADC interrupt mode in my prototype board. Everything is running
now but I'm facing accuracy problem. Can someone help me? I need my accuracy
to be +/- 0.5%.



1. I have my AVCC connected to Vcc.

2. Aref not connected.

3.Set free running mode

4.REFS1 = 0 , REFS0 = 0  (Choosed AVCC with external cap at Aref) -> what if
I dun have caps coupled between AVCC and Aref? Will it affect the accuracy?





Thanks.



Andrew





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RE: [AVR-Chat] ADC accuracy in ATmega8535

2004-11-02 by Dave VanHorn

At 09:53 AM 11/2/2004, Larry Barello wrote:

>Place a capacitor between Aref and ground (the analog ground).
>
>The accuracy of the conversion is better than .5%, but depending upon your 
>VCC accuracy, your absolute accuracy won't be so good.  At room 
>temperature most +5v regulators are pretty good, but you definitely won't 
>get the accuracy over temp without an external, calibrated reference.

On the tiny-26, I got Vref values of 2.7V. Not very encouraging. We used an 
external ref.

Re: ADC accuracy in ATmega8535 - external ref

2004-11-02 by Dave Mucha

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, Dave VanHorn <dvanhorn@d...> wrote:
> At 09:53 AM 11/2/2004, Larry Barello wrote:
> 
> >Place a capacitor between Aref and ground (the analog ground).
> >
> >The accuracy of the conversion is better than .5%, but depending 
upon your 
> >VCC accuracy, your absolute accuracy won't be so good.  At room 
> >temperature most +5v regulators are pretty good, but you 
definitely won't 
> >get the accuracy over temp without an external, calibrated 
reference.
> 
> On the tiny-26, I got Vref values of 2.7V. Not very encouraging. We 
used an 
> external ref.

any suggestions on what to use for an external ref ?

I used a TI chip, the TLS2543, 11 channel 12 bit ADC chip and also 
found that unless the actual Vcc was corrected for, there were errors.

The guy who I was working with put a 0.01uF to ground on each input 
as a means to reduce the noise.

I'm curious what people who acutally know the right way to do things 
would do.


Dave

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: ADC accuracy in ATmega8535 - external ref

2004-11-02 by Dave VanHorn

>
>any suggestions on what to use for an external ref ?

Any convenient band-gap chip will work. In my case, I used the 4.096V version.

>I used a TI chip, the TLS2543, 11 channel 12 bit ADC chip and also
>found that unless the actual Vcc was corrected for, there were errors.
>
>The guy who I was working with put a 0.01uF to ground on each input
>as a means to reduce the noise.

In general, you should filter out anything above the sample rate.
You can't really select a cap value without knowing the source impedance.

Re: ADC accuracy in ATmega8535 - external ref

2004-11-03 by Dave Mucha

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, Dave VanHorn <dvanhorn@d...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >any suggestions on what to use for an external ref ?
> 
> Any convenient band-gap chip will work. In my case, I used the 
4.096V version.


I hate to sound like a dummy, but sometimes the truth cannot be 
hidden.

Can you offer any type of link to how to use one ?


I down loaded the TI data sheet for an LM-385, 3 pin TO-92 package 
unit and the unit is shown as a zener with the voltage after a 
resistor.

The idea of using 4.096 is interesting, but it would seem that 4.096 
would be the maximum voltage it could read ?

Dave

RE: [AVR-Chat] ADC accuracy in ATmega8535

2004-11-03 by Larry Barello

I believe the bandgap reference in the tiny26 is plenty stable, but
uncalibrated.  In a production environment it might be cheaper to calibrate
the unit rather than paying for a high accuracy external trimmed unit.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave VanHorn

On the tiny-26, I got Vref values of 2.7V. Not very encouraging. We used an
external ref.

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: ADC accuracy in ATmega8535 - external ref

2004-11-03 by Dave VanHorn

>
>Can you offer any type of link to how to use one ?

Think of it as a high accuracy zener diode with good knees.
You feed a small current at it, and it limits the voltage to 4.096V

>I down loaded the TI data sheet for an LM-385, 3 pin TO-92 package
>unit and the unit is shown as a zener with the voltage after a
>resistor.
>
>The idea of using 4.096 is interesting, but it would seem that 4.096
>would be the maximum voltage it could read ?

Nope, that's controlled by your input resistor scaling.

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: ADC accuracy in ATmega8535 - external ref

2004-11-03 by Zack Widup

I looked and found several devices from Digi-Key that are 4.096 volt 
band-gap references.  These are much more stable and accurate than a 
zener. Some are 5-pin SMD devices and a couple are 8-pin devices.  But you 
basically put 5 to 15 volts on one pin and get 4.096 volts out of another 
pin. Even the two- and three-lead devices are more accurate than the 
zener.

That value is very useful for some circuits.  If you are going to use an 
AD8306 log amp as a received signal strength indicator (one of my 
projects), it produces 20 mV/dB.  So using 4.096 volts as the reference 
and a 10-bit ADC, every bit is equivalent to 0.2 dB.

Zack
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Dave Mucha wrote:

> 
> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, Dave VanHorn <dvanhorn@d...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >any suggestions on what to use for an external ref ?
> >
> > Any convenient band-gap chip will work. In my case, I used the
> 4.096V version.
> 
> 
> I hate to sound like a dummy, but sometimes the truth cannot be
> hidden.
> 
> Can you offer any type of link to how to use one ?
> 
> 
> I down loaded the TI data sheet for an LM-385, 3 pin TO-92 package
> unit and the unit is shown as a zener with the voltage after a
> resistor.
> 
> The idea of using 4.096 is interesting, but it would seem that 4.096
> would be the maximum voltage it could read ?
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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