AVR-Chat

I've got two new Mega168 boards which I'm trying to program via STK500/ISP 
but the STK500 doesn't appear to be talking to the AVR - "Entering 
programming mode .. FAILED!" on Read Signature. This is the first time I've 
tried to use the STK500 for ISP - used to use an Equinox serial/parallel 
programmer but it doesn't support the 168. The new boards have minor changes 
from a previous Mega8 design - the STK500 will talk to the Mega8, so that 
much of it is working and suggests there's nothing fundamentally wrong with 
the circuit.

The 168's are samples direct from local supplier and I assume should be in 
default/unprogrammed state. Clock (external 16MHz xtal) isn't running but I 
guess it won't until the relevant fuses are set? This is the first time I've 
had to use a SM AVR and I can't remember if I've previously had to parallel 
program the Mega8's before I could use ISP. Should I not expect to be able 
to do ISP from scratch? Could it be the external xtal that's the problem?

Thanks,
Mark

> 
> If the xtal in/out pins are VCC/2, then the xtal should be oscillating.
> 

I appear to have ~0.2V on both xtal pins, so not VCC/2 (5V VCC).

Mark

>
> Mark Nowell wrote:
>>>If the xtal in/out pins are VCC/2, then the xtal should be oscillating.
>>>
>>
>> I appear to have ~0.2V on both xtal pins, so not VCC/2 (5V VCC).
>>
>> Mark
>
> Then the xtal isn't the problem.
>
> Make sure none of the programming pins or the reset pin are being
> loaded by other components on the pcb. That includes things like
> capacitors connected to the reset pin.
>

I had a 10k pull-up and 0.1uF cap on Reset - I didn't think the cap was big 
enough to cause trouble but I took it out anyway. I also had 6k2 pull-ups on 
MOSI/MISO which I've again removed. No change.

Mark

Mark Nowell wrote:
> I've got two new Mega168 boards which I'm trying to program via STK500/ISP 
> but the STK500 doesn't appear to be talking to the AVR - "Entering 
> programming mode .. FAILED!" on Read Signature. This is the first time I've 
> tried to use the STK500 for ISP - used to use an Equinox serial/parallel 
> programmer but it doesn't support the 168. The new boards have minor changes 
> from a previous Mega8 design - the STK500 will talk to the Mega8, so that 
> much of it is working and suggests there's nothing fundamentally wrong with 
> the circuit.
> 
> The 168's are samples direct from local supplier and I assume should be in 
> default/unprogrammed state. Clock (external 16MHz xtal) isn't running but I 
> guess it won't until the relevant fuses are set? This is the first time I've 
> had to use a SM AVR and I can't remember if I've previously had to parallel 
> program the Mega8's before I could use ISP. Should I not expect to be able 
> to do ISP from scratch? Could it be the external xtal that's the problem?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark 

If the xtal in/out pins are VCC/2, then the xtal should be oscillating.

Mark Nowell wrote:
>>If the xtal in/out pins are VCC/2, then the xtal should be oscillating.
>>
> 
> I appear to have ~0.2V on both xtal pins, so not VCC/2 (5V VCC).
> 
> Mark

Then the xtal isn't the problem.

Make sure none of the programming pins or the reset pin are being
loaded by other components on the pcb. That includes things like
capacitors connected to the reset pin.

Mark Nowell wrote:
>>Mark Nowell wrote:
>>
>>>>If the xtal in/out pins are VCC/2, then the xtal should be oscillating.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I appear to have ~0.2V on both xtal pins, so not VCC/2 (5V VCC).
>>>
>>>Mark
>>
>>Then the xtal isn't the problem.
>>
>>Make sure none of the programming pins or the reset pin are being
>>loaded by other components on the pcb. That includes things like
>>capacitors connected to the reset pin.
>>
> 
> I had a 10k pull-up and 0.1uF cap on Reset - I didn't think the cap was big 
> enough to cause trouble but I took it out anyway. I also had 6k2 pull-ups on 
> MOSI/MISO which I've again removed. No change.
> 
> Mark

If there's nothing interfering with the pins, then i don't know. Maybe
you could test if the stk500 works on a different chip.

See if there's any waveforms on the reset/mosi/miso pins with a cro
when attempting programming.

Russell

I don't have a storage scope (must get one - cheap enough now) but I have 
checked mosi/miso/reset signals with my old cro and the STK500 is definitely 
trying to talk to the 168 but giving up pretty quickly. Does changing miso 
suggest that the 168 is trying to respond? Or perhaps the STK sets a pull-up 
on this line.

As per my earlier email, the STK and cable have been tested against my 
earlier M8 version of the board and work fine.

I take it from your responses that I should reasonably expect a brand new 
168 with external xtal to accept ISP programming?

Thanks,
Mark

>>>
>>>>>If the xtal in/out pins are VCC/2, then the xtal should be oscillating.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I appear to have ~0.2V on both xtal pins, so not VCC/2 (5V VCC).
>>>>
>>>>Mark
>>>
>>>Then the xtal isn't the problem.
>>>
>>>Make sure none of the programming pins or the reset pin are being
>>>loaded by other components on the pcb. That includes things like
>>>capacitors connected to the reset pin.
>>>
>>
>> I had a 10k pull-up and 0.1uF cap on Reset - I didn't think the cap was 
>> big
>> enough to cause trouble but I took it out anyway. I also had 6k2 pull-ups 
>> on
>> MOSI/MISO which I've again removed. No change.
>>
>
> If there's nothing interfering with the pins, then i don't know. Maybe
> you could test if the stk500 works on a different chip.
>
> See if there's any waveforms on the reset/mosi/miso pins with a cro
> when attempting programming.
>

Is the Mega168 (28 pin DIP) shipping in volume yet?

Peter

It was released to production and sampling on 5 Jan. I got 6 samples of the 
DIP from my rep. As far as volume, not sure. Still prototyping.
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Gargano" <peter@techedge.com.au>
To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:31 PM
Subject: [AVR-Chat] M168 DIP-28 Shipping?


>
> Is the Mega168 (28 pin DIP) shipping in volume yet?
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 



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Mark Nowell wrote:
> Russell
> 
> I don't have a storage scope (must get one - cheap enough now) but I have 
> checked mosi/miso/reset signals with my old cro and the STK500 is definitely 
> trying to talk to the 168 but giving up pretty quickly. Does changing miso 
> suggest that the 168 is trying to respond? Or perhaps the STK sets a pull-up 
> on this line.

Data is sent into the cpu via MOSI, and it responds on MISO. The sclk pin
is used too.

> As per my earlier email, the STK and cable have been tested against my 
> earlier M8 version of the board and work fine.
> 
> I take it from your responses that I should reasonably expect a brand new 
> 168 with external xtal to accept ISP programming?

I'd think so.

>
> try setting the onboard oscilator (on the STK500) to a lower value not
> 32K but somewhere around 1Mhz, as the new Mega168 is probably using its
> internal 1Mhz osc.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kat.
>

Ok, tried all combinations of "STK500 Osc" and "ISP Freq" settings and still 
no hint of a suggestion that the M168 wants to talk.

I've checked that miso, mosi, sck all have impedances to 0/5V in MOhm range, 
and reset-to-5V just under 10k (these values are the same on the older M8 
board that does work with STK). Are there any other conditions that I ought 
to check for? Should I try removing the external xtal?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark Nowell wrote:

> Russell
> 
> I don't have a storage scope (must get one - cheap enough now) but I have 
> checked mosi/miso/reset signals with my old cro and the STK500 is definitely 
> trying to talk to the 168 but giving up pretty quickly. Does changing miso 
> suggest that the 168 is trying to respond? Or perhaps the STK sets a pull-up 
> on this line.
> 
> As per my earlier email, the STK and cable have been tested against my 
> earlier M8 version of the board and work fine.
> 
> I take it from your responses that I should reasonably expect a brand new 
> 168 with external xtal to accept ISP programming?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark

try setting the onboard oscilator (on the STK500) to a lower value not 
32K but somewhere around 1Mhz, as the new Mega168 is probably using its 
internal 1Mhz osc.

Regards,

Kat.

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Kat

My older board is for DIP M8 whereas the new board has TQFP M168 - I don't 
actually have a TQFP M8, nor the tools (or eyesight) to solder one in. The 
design of new and old board are obviously not exactly the same but they're 
very similar and (schematically) identical so far as the ISP programming 
lines are concerned.

The M168 chips were put in for me by hand, so I'm prepared to believe there 
might be assembly faults but I can't find them - if I've got the necessary 
lines connected, and no excessive load on them, shouldn't I expect ISP to 
work anyway?

I have just taken my JTAG ICE mk-II out of its wrapper and tried the 
debugWire interface (not enabled). It also has a facility to enable 
debugWire via ISP but this won't work either - AVR Studio suggests checking 
that the SPIEN fuse is enabled.

Thanks,
Mark

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Kathy Quinlan" <kat-yahoo@kaqelectronics.dyndns.org>
To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [AVR-Chat] STK500 ISP failure


>
> Mark Nowell wrote:
>
>>>try setting the onboard oscilator (on the STK500) to a lower value not
>>>32K but somewhere around 1Mhz, as the new Mega168 is probably using its
>>>internal 1Mhz osc.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Kat.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Ok, tried all combinations of "STK500 Osc" and "ISP Freq" settings and 
>> still
>> no hint of a suggestion that the M168 wants to talk.
>>
>> I've checked that miso, mosi, sck all have impedances to 0/5V in MOhm 
>> range,
>> and reset-to-5V just under 10k (these values are the same on the older M8
>> board that does work with STK). Are there any other conditions that I 
>> ought
>> to check for? Should I try removing the external xtal?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark
>
> OK so If you DESOLDER the M168 and SOLDER in an M8 then THAT PCB WILL work 
> ?
>
> IF so, I think the M168 may be faulty or not programed with ISP enabled.
>
> Do you have a Jtag ICE ? (or any Jtag hardware ?)
>
> HTH
>
> Regards,
>
> Kat.
>
> -- 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> K.A.Q. Electronics Website: www.kaqelectronics.dyndns.org
> IM: Yahoo: PinkyDwaggy  MSN: katinka@kaqelectronics.dyndns.org
> For Everything Electronics     Phone: 0419 923 731
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>
>
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 14/02/2005
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Mark Nowell wrote:

>>try setting the onboard oscilator (on the STK500) to a lower value not
>>32K but somewhere around 1Mhz, as the new Mega168 is probably using its
>>internal 1Mhz osc.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Kat.
>>
> 
> 
> Ok, tried all combinations of "STK500 Osc" and "ISP Freq" settings and still 
> no hint of a suggestion that the M168 wants to talk.
> 
> I've checked that miso, mosi, sck all have impedances to 0/5V in MOhm range, 
> and reset-to-5V just under 10k (these values are the same on the older M8 
> board that does work with STK). Are there any other conditions that I ought 
> to check for? Should I try removing the external xtal?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark 

OK so If you DESOLDER the M168 and SOLDER in an M8 then THAT PCB WILL work ?

IF so, I think the M168 may be faulty or not programed with ISP enabled.

Do you have a Jtag ICE ? (or any Jtag hardware ?)

HTH

Regards,

Kat.

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For Everything Electronics     Phone: 0419 923 731
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I'm sure it's a dumb question that's going to resolve this and I have 
therefore checked (again....) that I've got 0V on Pins 3,5,21 (GND) and 5V 
on 4,6 (VCC) and 18 (AVCC).

I just found a thread on AVRFreaks regarding a similar programming problem 
where, in the end, a 500kHz clock into XTAL1 fixed the ISP problem because 
the AVR had the wrong (external) clock fuses set. Is this a line worth 
pursuing?

Thanks again,
Mark

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Kathy Quinlan" <kat-yahoo@kaqelectronics.dyndns.org>
To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [AVR-Chat] STK500 ISP failure


>
> Bruce Parham wrote:
>
>>
>> Dumb question: Are ALL of the power and ground pin connected???
>
> Doh forgot to ask that one :|
>
>
>> Bruce
>>
>> Mark Nowell wrote:
>>
>>>Kat
>>>
>>>My older board is for DIP M8 whereas the new board has TQFP M168 - I 
>>>don't
>>>actually have a TQFP M8, nor the tools (or eyesight) to solder one in. 
>>>The
>>>design of new and old board are obviously not exactly the same but 
>>>they're
>>>very similar and (schematically) identical so far as the ISP programming
>>>lines are concerned.
>
> Fun times ahead, ok as pointed out above, check all ground and VCC pins,
> check that MISO is MISO etc (make sure the PCB does not have pins
> swapped or pins miss counted (did that once on a PCB as I had numbered
> the BGA pins wrong :(
>
> Make sure the chip is oriented AROUND THE RIGHT WAY (I had a batch of
> PCB's hand assembled where all the QTPF parts were 90 deg out :(
>
>
>>>The M168 chips were put in for me by hand, so I'm prepared to believe 
>>>there
>>>might be assembly faults but I can't find them - if I've got the 
>>>necessary
>>>lines connected, and no excessive load on them, shouldn't I expect ISP to
>>>work anyway?
>
> NO the SPIEN fuse may have not been set (which has happened on past
> chips, I think the sample T26's had this problem)
>
>>>I have just taken my JTAG ICE mk-II out of its wrapper and tried the
>>>debugWire interface (not enabled). It also has a facility to enable
>>>debugWire via ISP but this won't work either - AVR Studio suggests 
>>>checking
>>>that the SPIEN fuse is enabled.
>
> DAMN
>
> Regards,
>
> Kat.
>
> -- 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> K.A.Q. Electronics Website: www.kaqelectronics.dyndns.org
> IM: Yahoo: PinkyDwaggy  MSN: katinka@kaqelectronics.dyndns.org
> For Everything Electronics     Phone: 0419 923 731
> --------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Dumb question: Are ALL of the power and ground pin connected???

Bruce

Mark Nowell wrote:

> 
> Kat
> 
> My older board is for DIP M8 whereas the new board has TQFP M168 - I don't
> actually have a TQFP M8, nor the tools (or eyesight) to solder one in. The
> design of new and old board are obviously not exactly the same but they're
> very similar and (schematically) identical so far as the ISP programming
> lines are concerned.
> 
> The M168 chips were put in for me by hand, so I'm prepared to believe there
> might be assembly faults but I can't find them - if I've got the necessary
> lines connected, and no excessive load on them, shouldn't I expect ISP to
> work anyway?
> 
> I have just taken my JTAG ICE mk-II out of its wrapper and tried the
> debugWire interface (not enabled). It also has a facility to enable
> debugWire via ISP but this won't work either - AVR Studio suggests checking
> that the SPIEN fuse is enabled.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark

Bruce Parham wrote:

> 
> Dumb question: Are ALL of the power and ground pin connected???

Doh forgot to ask that one :|


> Bruce
> 
> Mark Nowell wrote:
> 
>>Kat
>>
>>My older board is for DIP M8 whereas the new board has TQFP M168 - I don't
>>actually have a TQFP M8, nor the tools (or eyesight) to solder one in. The
>>design of new and old board are obviously not exactly the same but they're
>>very similar and (schematically) identical so far as the ISP programming
>>lines are concerned.

Fun times ahead, ok as pointed out above, check all ground and VCC pins, 
check that MISO is MISO etc (make sure the PCB does not have pins 
swapped or pins miss counted (did that once on a PCB as I had numbered 
the BGA pins wrong :(

Make sure the chip is oriented AROUND THE RIGHT WAY (I had a batch of 
PCB's hand assembled where all the QTPF parts were 90 deg out :(


>>The M168 chips were put in for me by hand, so I'm prepared to believe there
>>might be assembly faults but I can't find them - if I've got the necessary
>>lines connected, and no excessive load on them, shouldn't I expect ISP to
>>work anyway?

NO the SPIEN fuse may have not been set (which has happened on past 
chips, I think the sample T26's had this problem)

>>I have just taken my JTAG ICE mk-II out of its wrapper and tried the
>>debugWire interface (not enabled). It also has a facility to enable
>>debugWire via ISP but this won't work either - AVR Studio suggests checking
>>that the SPIEN fuse is enabled.

DAMN

Regards,

Kat.

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Mark Nowell wrote:

> I'm sure it's a dumb question that's going to resolve this and I have 
> therefore checked (again....) that I've got 0V on Pins 3,5,21 (GND) and 5V 
> on 4,6 (VCC) and 18 (AVCC).
> 
> I just found a thread on AVRFreaks regarding a similar programming problem 
> where, in the end, a 500kHz clock into XTAL1 fixed the ISP problem because 
> the AVR had the wrong (external) clock fuses set. Is this a line worth 
> pursuing?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Mark

Ummmmm ANYTHING that can lead to an answer is worth pursuing, it all 
adds experiance ;)

Regards,

Kat.


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---------------------------------------------------------------
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IM: Yahoo: PinkyDwaggy  MSN: katinka@kaqelectronics.dyndns.org
For Everything Electronics     Phone: 0419 923 731
---------------------------------------------------------------	


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