AVR-Chat

I am working on a new product intended to make the AVR Dragon as easy 
to use and as flexible as the old STK500.  Briefly, it is a PCB that 
sits on top of the Dragon and has the familiar target microcontroller 
area, 10-pin headers and other useful gadgetry.  With it, you can use 
your Dragon for prototyping various circuits without the ridiculous 
soldering-on of a ZIF socket in Atmel's microscopic "prototyping 
area".  Here is the detailed informatio in draft:

http://www.ecrostech.com/AtmelAvr/DragonRider

I would be interested in general opinions on this product, 
specifically, of course, would it sell?  I expect the bare PCB to be 
priced at about $8 and the parts kit at about $17.  It is a goal that 
the AVR Dragon and the complete Dragon rider cost less than the 
STK500.

If anyone is so interested that they'd like to reserve one when I go 
into production, please let me know.

Finally, I have a prototype that I'd like someone to subject to field 
testing.  You'll need your own AVR Dragon, a selection of the 
supported microcontrollers and some 10-way ribbon cables from the 
STK500, but I'll send the prototype kit at no charge and at my 
expense.  I'd prefer you to be in the USA, but I'll go the extra 
distance for an established AVR expert.

What I'm hoping to learn is this:
* Can the Dragon Rider be assembled with normal skill?
* Does it function as advertised?
* In what ways could it be improved, while keeping to the basic 
purpose?
* What auxiliary functions (buttons, LEDs, etc.) would be useful?

Here are a few things I already know about:
* Getting the single-row headers straight is difficult, but I can't 
figure a way around this while leaving room to get the shunts on and 
off with just fingers.
* I'm supplying a 150 ohm resistor for the 100 ohm resistor.
* There is a footprint for a large supply decoupling capacitor, but 
in my testing it seemed to be a bad idea so I intend to remove it.
* You'll probably wish there was a power switch instead of a jumper 
when you test debugWIRE.
* The light guide isn't quite above the Dragon LED.
* The reset line de-glitch capacitor is not supplied as I haven't 
found it necessary.  I should probably try it out anyway (so many 
combinations!).

The first field tester reported this:
* There should indeed be an on/off switch for the target area.
* Yes, the light guide isn't quite above the Dragon LED.
* An RS232 level converter and connector would be nice.

If you don't want to reply in this thread, there's a contact page on 
my Web site.  Thanks for reading.

Graham Davies
www.ecrostech.com

At 09:45 PM 13/09/2007, you wrote:
>I am working on a new product intended to make the AVR Dragon as easy
>to use and as flexible as the old STK500.

You may know of the impending arrival of the STK600 I suppose,
we will know more of it's capabilities as soon as the first AVR
seminar hits the road in the US shortly.

>I would be interested in general opinions on this product,
>specifically, of course, would it sell?

May be you are aware of this thread on AVRFreaks:
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=53368&highlight=dragon

I have a ZIF socket with my Dragon but only used it once,
I have a myriad of boards with many types of AVRs so it is not
something I would buy, I guess it would be something that a
beginner may want to use. I don't even use the STK500, only
occasionally for the odd HVPP or to help someone with a problem.

Just my 2c...

Regards

John Samperi

********************************************************
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
11 Brokenwood Place Baulkham Hills, NSW 2153 AUSTRALIA
Tel. (02) 9674-6495       Fax (02) 9674-8745
Email: john@ampertronics.com.au
Website  http://www.ampertronics.com.au
*Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
********************************************************

On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 07:59:10AM +1000, John Samperi wrote:
> 
> I have a ZIF socket with my Dragon but only used it once,
> I have a myriad of boards with many types of AVRs so it is not
> something I would buy, I guess it would be something that a
> beginner may want to use. I don't even use the STK500, only
> occasionally for the odd HVPP or to help someone with a problem.

Having just recently fired up my Dragon, the most useful thing missing
would have been a selection of 3" jumpers color coded to the tables in
the Dragon manual. And having the big 40 pin header loaded.

A cable with ISP plug on one end for my target, jumper plugs on other
for the Dragon would also be nice.

Next most useful would be a PDF version of the current Dragon manual.

I put machine pin strips in the 28 pin "socket", and will do same for
the 40 pin socket if need arises.

I goofed and didn't put a full ISP header on my target board, only a 3
pin DebugWire connector. After soldering the ATmega48 discovered my
goof. Pre-conditioned a few chips in my socket on the Dragon, cut some
traces on my target board and got ISP control over that chip to flip it
into DebugWire mode.

-- 
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, John Samperi <samperi@...> wrote:
> You may know of the impending arrival of the STK600 ...

My impression is that the STK600 will be priced much higher than the 
STK500 and AVR Dragon.  If the AVR Dragon has a place out there, the 
Dragon Rider may have one too.

> May be you are aware of this thread on AVRFreaks:
> http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?
name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=53368&highlight=dragon

Well, that shows that people do want something to make the AVR Dragon 
more flexible.  I wish the guy the best of luck with his two-part 
solution, but there's more to bringing a product to market than 
designing a PCB.

> ... I guess [the Dragon Rider] would be something that a
> beginner may want to use.

Maybe.  I think it could be useful to anyone who wants to put an AVR 
through its paces and is staring at their AVR Dragon thinking "what 
now?".

Graham.

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Graham Davies" <Yahoo37849@...> wrote:

> I am working on a new product intended to make the AVR Dragon as easy 
> to use and as flexible as the old STK500.

I love the idea of a module like this but what I really want to see if
enough peripherals to make this a good educational platform. For
example, maybe some I2C ports like RTC or Temperature, and some A/D
peripherals such as a POT. Since my idea is to use this for
educational purposes the specifics of the peripherals aren't critical
but they need to be stardard so each board will have the same stuff.

I try to help college students occasionally and the biggest problem
with designing demo programs for them is that there are not well
defined standard hardware boards that common peripherals and also ICD.
They like ICD because it helps them understand the internals better.
The Dragon has ICD but no standard peripherals. Of course we'd have to
agree on one specific MCU, and then a standard set of peripherals that
would allow us to write good demo programs that will work "out of the
box".

There's a steep learning curve that can be minimized with this type of
board-level product.

But they'd also have to be avalable in a pre-assembled format to be
useful to most college students because they usually don't have enough
time in their schedule to assemble their own boards. They will have
some classes that teach that skill but their MCU class is normally not
structured to allow lab time for this purpose.

Eric

On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 03:10:24PM -0000, Eric Engler wrote:
> 
> I love the idea of a module like this but what I really want to see if
> enough peripherals to make this a good educational platform. For
> example, maybe some I2C ports like RTC or Temperature, and some A/D
> peripherals such as a POT. Since my idea is to use this for
> educational purposes the specifics of the peripherals aren't critical
> but they need to be stardard so each board will have the same stuff.
> 
> I try to help college students occasionally and the biggest problem
> with designing demo programs for them is that there are not well
> defined standard hardware boards that common peripherals and also ICD.

Would be an interesting program if one term the students designed, layed
out, and built their own boards. Maybe program them the next term.

Low volume PCBs are very reasonable these days, double sided, plated
holes, soldermask, and silkscreen.

If the students are going to do embedded work for a living, these are
things they are going to have to know.

> But they'd also have to be avalable in a pre-assembled format to be
> useful to most college students because they usually don't have enough
> time in their schedule to assemble their own boards. They will have
> some classes that teach that skill but their MCU class is normally not
> structured to allow lab time for this purpose.

Clearly there is room for improvement in school curricula.

-- 
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Engler" <englere.geo@...> wrote:

> ..  what I really want to see is
> enough peripherals to make this a
> good educational platform.

Well, actually, the Dragon Rider isn't supposed to be just one 
product.  I'm starting with what will probably be the Dragon Rider 500 
(because it attempts to be like the STK 500), but I've been thinking 
also about Dragon Riders for just a single type of MCU that are more 
for building actual projects on.  These would be suited to educational 
purposes.  The AVR Dragon would be re-usable and the Riders would be 
semi-disposable.  Students could purchase them and keep the projects, 
which would of course work without the Dragon.  One of the people who 
contacted me about the field test is interested specifically in this 
type of application.

> But they'd also have to be avalable
> in a pre-assembled format ...

Most of my stuff is offered bare PCB, PCB with kit and assembled.  For 
large orders that I know are coming I can reduce the price of assembled 
product by having someone else do it.

And, David Kelly wrote:

... students designed, layed out, and built their own boards ... 
program them the next term ... Low volume PCBs are very reasonable ... 
these are things they are going to have to know ... room for 
improvement in school curricula.

I agree that this would all be very nice, but it just may not be 
feasible to get all students through this in the available time with 
the available supervision.  There are a heck of a lot of minor (and 
boring) issues to take care of in this process that we geezers take in 
our stride but can baffle newcomers.  Also, engaging the student is 
very important and that's much easier to do when the hardware is 
sitting there waiting to be programmed.  It makes more sense to me to 
have the student build their own project as you suggest *after* they've 
messed about with some pre-constructed gadgetry and have a clearer 
vision of where it will all end up.

Graham.

>  It makes more sense to me to
> have the student build their own project as you suggest *after* they've
> messed about with some pre-constructed gadgetry and have a clearer
> vision of where it will all end up.

I agree..  A completed board, with some interesting sensors and output
devices, with well-written code that works, would be a big plus.  It's
always easier to start off by modifying something that works, than to
learn all the twitchy details first.

...And then have to listen to a bunch of old farts tell us "Oh yeah, I 
had a problem with that when I was just getting started."   8-)

It seems that no matter how much detail we try to provide to someone 
who's new to AVRs, there's always something that gets overlooked.  But 
that's just more reason to keep Dave VanHorn's getting started with the 
AVR code handy.


REB


David VanHorn wrote:

>> It makes more sense to me to
>>have the student build their own project as you suggest *after* they've
>>messed about with some pre-constructed gadgetry and have a clearer
>>vision of where it will all end up.
>>    
>>
>
>I agree..  A completed board, with some interesting sensors and output
>devices, with well-written code that works, would be a big plus.  It's
>always easier to start off by modifying something that works, than to
>learn all the twitchy details first.
>  
>

On 9/16/07, Roy E. Burrage <RBurrage@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> ...And then have to listen to a bunch of old farts tell us "Oh yeah, I
> had a problem with that when I was just getting started."   8-)
>
> It seems that no matter how much detail we try to provide to someone
> who's new to AVRs, there's always something that gets overlooked.  But
> that's just more reason to keep Dave VanHorn's getting started with the
> AVR code handy.

:)  That's still out there I guess.

I feel bad that I haven't updated it in ages.  I should probably do a
M128 port or something like that, maybe add some new peripherals.
I've been working with a few new sensors lately, but not something
that you'd want to put on a student board, too pricey and complicated.

There are a couple of things I'd like to see done, like dynamic memory
allocation, and efficient string parsing.  My current app looks for a
number of command strings in a serial input stream, and although it
works well enough, it's rather "klunky".   I haven't hit any
inspirations on a better way to do it yet.

Here's another approach I took for providing a flexible experimental 
and educational platform for the AVR: 
http://www.avrcard.com/products/playground_overview.htm

Maybe you can use some of these concepts for your work.

Regards,
Hans

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Kallen" <hk@...> wrote:

> ... another approach ... 
> http://www.avrcard.com/products/playground_overview.htm
> Maybe you can use some of these concepts for your work.

Some of my ideas are similar to what you've done, for example, the 
little plug-on boards that pick up one of the expansion busses.  I want 
to steer clear of other people's work to add a new option to the AVR 
community and "make the pie higher" rather than fight for a share of 
someone else's slice.  For example, the university that expressed an 
interest in trying out the Dragon Rider is moving to AVR from PIC.  The 
Dragon itself, of course, does not support on-chip debug with the 
larger memory AVRs such as the AVRcard uses.

Graham.

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Kallen" <hk@...> wrote:

> Here's another approach I took for providing a flexible experimental 
> and educational platform for the AVR: 
> http://www.avrcard.com/products/playground_overview.htm

We can't use a Dragon for ICD on an ATMega128, right?

Eric

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Engler" <englere.geo@...> wrote:

> We can't use a Dragon for
> ICD on an ATMega128, right?

Right.  32K limit.  But, as the ATMega128 is supported by the old 
JTAGICE, you can use one of the JTAGICE clones, such as the AVR ICE-
Cube, for an inexpensive solution.

Graham.

Plz let me know I need it for school project
   
  Thnx!!! 

Alfredo
   
  aesv@yahoo.com


Alfred Salazar 
       
---------------------------------
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Check Ebay.

 

Ricardo Callejo

SURbyte SRL

Argentina

 

  _____  

De: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de
alfred salazar
Enviado el: jueves, 20 de septiembre de 2007 17:31
Para: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: [AVR-Chat] Does anyone have STK 500 for sell it????

 

Plz let me know I need it for school project

Thnx!!! 

Alfredo

aesv@yahoo.com <mailto:aesv%40yahoo.com> 

Alfred Salazar 

---------------------------------
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and more!

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--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Graham Davies" <Yahoo37849@...> wrote:
>
> I am working on a new product intended
> to make the AVR Dragon as easy to use
> and as flexible as the old STK500 ...

Well, after sifting through feedback from field testers and a lot of 
difficult compromise, I have the Dragon Rider ready for sale.  You can 
read about it here:

http://www.ecrostech.com/AtmelAvr/DragonRider

In the end, I had to split the functions people wanted into "add-on" 
kits so that the "buy-in" price met my goal of $25.  Also, nobody 
reported using High Voltage Programming, so the parts for that don't 
come in the basic kit.  As a result, the PCB and basic kit are $23.95.

At the last minute, I decided that perhaps not everyone wants, or even 
groks, the full complexity of the Dragon, so I added a "Quick Start" 
kit to allow beginners to get their Dragon up and running quickly at 
minimal cost.  (If you order this, there may be a bit of a delay as 
there's some kind of holdup where I ordered the microcontrollers.)

Thanks for the feedback and thanks again to the field testers.

Graham Davies
www.ecrostech.com