Dave Smith Instruments SYNTHESIZERS

I'm looking for opinions of those who use 49 or 61 key controllers.

I'm searching for a controller with aftertouch and playability that will last more than a year, posessing durability and doesn't feel like a CME-UF series(had one, sold it, completly un-impressed with it, not going to get into it) but not expensive like a new Studiologic controller, asking much I know.  
Durability of the keys are more than my main concern, followed by funcitonality as I'll be using it live and only mainly using it for playing, not knob turning.

I'm considering:
- Edirol PCR800 (bad online reviews about durability)
- Akai MPK49
- Novation Remote SL Compact (49 or 61)
- M-Audio Axiom 61
- Yamaha KX61 (can't find any good reviews)
- or a used Kurzweil 2000 / Studiologic (since I own a K2500 and its been rock solid for over 10 years).

Thanks in advance,
Tyler.

I have an Akai MPK49 that I'm happy with. I use it to play live with my
Evolver Desktop, as well as a Virus TI desktop, a Hammond organ Module,
and a Roland XV-5080. Each synth is MIDI chained and assigned to a
unique MIDI channel. I made 4 Setups, one for each synth, where each
setup has sliders mapped to various CCs and pads mapped to patch
changes.
 
Pros:
- Aftertouch
- Nice feeling keys (much better than the Mono Evolver)
- Ability to be powered by a power supply not just USB.
- Can run off USB power (but note the cons below)
- Feels sturdy
- Sliders work well, not too sticky or lose. Knobs are solid.
- Drum pads can be set to send patch changes (I have my top 12 Evolver
patches programmed in bank A). 
- Patch changes include patch and bank (MSB and LSB)
- The 12 Drum pads have 4 banks.
- The 8 sliders (and buttons I think) have 4 banks.
- It looks good (in my subjective opinion), but sometimes think it looks
big and blocky like a Fischer Price toy.
 
Cons:
- power supply (12v ?) not included
- When connected to a computer via USB, the 5 pin din MIDI ports do not
work. Therefore, can't use the editor software if the intention is to
control hardware.
- Does not support NRPN.
- Tap tempo (like anywhere else) is pointless
- Changing tempo is a pain to do
- Need hit "play" button for tempo to be transmitted (may be a good
thing)
- Couldn't get the DAW buttons to work with Sonar (though didn't try
that hard).
- Dumb UI decisions make it somewhat awkward to program in the unit
itself. Not too bad though.
- On/Off buttons do not send patch changes or notes, only CC.
- No simple way to send a patch change if you didn't already assign one
with a pad.
- Slightly awkward way to change setups - turn the knob then push it
down. No way to know if the knob was pressed and the displayed setup is
what's active. It would be better if there were - / + buttons. Could
cause trouble at a gig.
- Must remember to save the setup or you'll lose changes if you power
down or you change the setup. It became second nature to save after
every change.
 
The biggest plus for me is sending patch changes with the pads. It would
be much better if this wasn't just an afterthought since it's a little
awkward to do. Patches are 1 based in the Akai and 0 based in the
Evolver. Therefore B:15 in the Evolver would be 001/16 in the Akai. Some
older Roland products are base 8. Each patch change and controller
assignment is default to MIDI channel 1. No way to change that
universally per setup. My Evolver is set to MIDI channel 2, so every
controller assignment requires that I remember to set the channel in the
Akai.
 
-- Iain

 
________________________________

From: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of ubiquitousblack
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:12 AM
To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DSI Synths] 49 and 61 key controllers





I'm looking for opinions of those who use 49 or 61 key controllers.

I'm searching for a controller with aftertouch and playability that will
last more than a year, posessing durability and doesn't feel like a
CME-UF series(had one, sold it, completly un-impressed with it, not
going to get into it) but not expensive like a new Studiologic
controller, asking much I know. 
Durability of the keys are more than my main concern, followed by
funcitonality as I'll be using it live and only mainly using it for
playing, not knob turning.

I'm considering:
- Edirol PCR800 (bad online reviews about durability)
- Akai MPK49
- Novation Remote SL Compact (49 or 61)
- M-Audio Axiom 61
- Yamaha KX61 (can't find any good reviews)
- or a used Kurzweil 2000 / Studiologic (since I own a K2500 and its
been rock solid for over 10 years).

Thanks in advance,
Tyler.






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I have several 88's here that I use with the PEK and SE P'08 ...
the ones I use are weighted type too
(Korg Extreme and Alesis Fusion)
When I let my wife midi into the DSI synths, she uses a Yamaha S-80 or P-60.

Yea, I know they are not midi controllers but just pointing out, 88's are
good and I often use
those in conjunction with the output or feed their input into the DSI
synths.

Also, just for fyi, if you got a guitar, try out the roland gr type pickups
and feed that into the DSI synths ... ;-)
Les Paul here config to do this.

dale

band web pages
Inquisitor Betrayer
"Space Elevator" Get it at http://cdbaby.com/cd/inquisitorbetrayer
http://www.inquisitorbetrayer.com ,
http://www.myspace.com/inquisitorbetrayer ,
http://www.musicforte.com/member/ib_staff and
Angel's Wings www.myspace.com/lorrainekay
iTunes
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=200365877

New group for Serious Musicians, Serious_Musicians@yahoogroups.com, for
those
who want to spend less time marketing and more time making music

Escuchen a los Inquisitor - Musica para Inteligentes.
 Music is nothing if the audience is deaf.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ubiquitousblack" <tyler_steel@...>


> I'm looking for opinions of those who use 49 or 61 key controllers.
>
> I'm searching for a controller with aftertouch and playability that will
last more than a year, posessing durability and doesn't feel like a CME-UF
series(had one, sold it, completly un-impressed with it, not going to get
into it) but not expensive like a new Studiologic controller, asking much I
know.
> Durability of the keys are more than my main concern, followed by
funcitonality as I'll be using it live and only mainly using it for playing,
not knob turning.
>
> I'm considering:
> - Edirol PCR800 (bad online reviews about durability)
> - Akai MPK49
> - Novation Remote SL Compact (49 or 61)
> - M-Audio Axiom 61
> - Yamaha KX61 (can't find any good reviews)
> - or a used Kurzweil 2000 / Studiologic (since I own a K2500 and its been
rock solid for over 10 years).

>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tyler.
>

Iain and Dale, 

Thanks for your reply's.
Dale, I've been using my Kurz 2500xs (88 full weighted fatar) for years and no longer want to put it through the strain of transport and gig'n plus its damn heavy compared to the rest of my gear.  I like 88's but find I only use all those keys at home. 61 is about the most spread I've ever used live and 49 at times (my Nord) can just seem a bit small unless those octave keys are easy to hit.
Iain, your reply was very informative on the MPK and has made it more appealing than the Novations since they have a very similar keybed.

I'm either going Akai, used Kurzweil/Studiologic or Novation, will depend on a deal I could get on a Novation.  This is only for playability not DAW interface capability, I use the maps on my ps2-pc-keybed for that.

My take on controllers discussed (my personal take, not yours):
I have since tried all the ones I mentioned as well as some that I didn't.  
I found that the M-Audio keybed is poor though looks good, the only one seemingly worth while is the 88 grand bed with all the sliders / pads / knobs, the rest have a poor feel when playing hard on the keys as it makes the whole keybed jiggle (fortissimo on a regular piano).  
The edirol's have that wierd (to me) rounded keys that don't handle my fingers so well when playing inside the keys, allows for too much slip and the only thing to me that felt really cheap was the x-fader = POS, the rest was pretty tight however and the sliders were very smooth with that little extra resistance.  
The other boards just lacked in quality ESPECIALLY the Yamaha KX series, wow, I never thought something would feel more cheap than a Yam..PSR270, totally expected that cheapness from the m-audio's, you can even see the plastic mounts for the black keys and the 61 key bed weighs around 3 pounds or so, I'd even go back to CME instead of going with that and I detest CME.  The Yamaha MM6 felt even better than the KX and has a pretty low cost, even the Roland SH201 feels ok and stores have deals here and there, for an extra $100, worth it in my eyes to get an ok synth included.

A little more expensive, but have you considered to Remote SL (not compact) or X-Station? They would not be much more than the Roland SH-201.

Novation is bragging about the new SL2 Fatar keybed, but the original SL and X-station have pretty good keys with channel aftertouch. (I have heard that they are better than the Remote Compact keys.) Of course, some people don't like the joystick and XY pad instead of mod wheels on those models.

Aaron

--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, "ubiquitousblack" <tyler_steel@...> wrote:

>
> I'm looking for opinions of those who use 49 or 61 key controllers.
> 
> I'm searching for a controller with aftertouch and playability that will last more than a year, posessing durability and doesn't feel like a CME-UF series(had one, sold it, completly un-impressed with it, not going to get into it) but not expensive like a new Studiologic controller, asking much I know.  
> Durability of the keys are more than my main concern, followed by funcitonality as I'll be using it live and only mainly using it for playing, not knob turning.
> 
> I'm considering:
> - Edirol PCR800 (bad online reviews about durability)
> - Akai MPK49
> - Novation Remote SL Compact (49 or 61)
> - M-Audio Axiom 61
> - Yamaha KX61 (can't find any good reviews)
> - or a used Kurzweil 2000 / Studiologic (since I own a K2500 and its been rock solid for over 10 years).
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Tyler.
>

Ubiquitousblack, I have a K2500X embedded in my studio as the controller
for my just about everything, but I don't think it is well suited for
synthy leads from the Evolver. The K2500X is also way too heavy for
gigging and it's a real pain to set back up - making my studio unusable
for too long. This is why I ended up buying a Studio Logic Fatar 1176
(used from craigslist) that stays in the case when I'm not on a gig or
certain rehearsals. The Roland XV-5080 is the center of my live rig and
the Fatar controls that. 
 
The Fatar 1176 has 76 weighted keys, which is about all I need, and I
very much prefer the feel over the Kurzweil. I believe Fatar makes the
key bed for Kurzwiels', but I can tell you the feel is not the same. 61
keys too limiting and 88 is too big for smaller clubs and too unwieldy
for me to transport. 
 
I'm considering replacing the two items (Fatar and Roland XV), with a
Fantom X7 to cut down on things to carry. I'm familiar with Roland, like
their sounds, and have 4 expansion cards I'd hate to do without.
 
Also, you mentioned the M-Audio 88 key controller. IMO the M-Audio
Keystation Pro is one of the worst keyboards I've ever tried. The keys
have a strange action where the resistance disappears just before the
key is all the way down, which makes it difficult to play softly.
 
Regards,
-- Iain

________________________________

From: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of ubiquitousblack
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 2:42 PM
To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DSI Synths] 49 and 61 key controllers





Iain and Dale, 

Thanks for your reply's.
Dale, I've been using my Kurz 2500xs (88 full weighted fatar) for years
and no longer want to put it through the strain of transport and gig'n
plus its damn heavy compared to the rest of my gear. I like 88's but
find I only use all those keys at home. 61 is about the most spread I've
ever used live and 49 at times (my Nord) can just seem a bit small
unless those octave keys are easy to hit.
Iain, your reply was very informative on the MPK and has made it more
appealing than the Novations since they have a very similar keybed.

I'm either going Akai, used Kurzweil/Studiologic or Novation, will
depend on a deal I could get on a Novation. This is only for playability
not DAW interface capability, I use the maps on my ps2-pc-keybed for
that.

My take on controllers discussed (my personal take, not yours):
I have since tried all the ones I mentioned as well as some that I
didn't. 
I found that the M-Audio keybed is poor though looks good, the only one
seemingly worth while is the 88 grand bed with all the sliders / pads /
knobs, the rest have a poor feel when playing hard on the keys as it
makes the whole keybed jiggle (fortissimo on a regular piano). 
The edirol's have that wierd (to me) rounded keys that don't handle my
fingers so well when playing inside the keys, allows for too much slip
and the only thing to me that felt really cheap was the x-fader = POS,
the rest was pretty tight however and the sliders were very smooth with
that little extra resistance. 
The other boards just lacked in quality ESPECIALLY the Yamaha KX series,
wow, I never thought something would feel more cheap than a Yam..PSR270,
totally expected that cheapness from the m-audio's, you can even see the
plastic mounts for the black keys and the 61 key bed weighs around 3
pounds or so, I'd even go back to CME instead of going with that and I
detest CME. The Yamaha MM6 felt even better than the KX and has a pretty
low cost, even the Roland SH201 feels ok and stores have deals here and
there, for an extra $100, worth it in my eyes to get an ok synth
included.






This electronic mail message contains information that (a) is or 
may be CONFIDENTIAL, PROPRIETARY IN NATURE, OR OTHERWISE 
PROTECTED 
BY LAW FROM DISCLOSURE, and (b) is intended only for the use of 
the addressee(s) named herein.  If you are not an intended 
recipient, please contact the sender immediately and take the 
steps necessary to delete the message completely from your 
computer system.

Not Intended as a Substitute for a Writing: Notwithstanding the 
Uniform Electronic Transaction Act or any other law of similar 
effect, absent an express statement to the contrary, this e-mail 
message, its contents, and any attachments hereto are not 
intended 
to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and 
are not otherwise intended to bind this sender, 
barnesandnoble.com 
llc, barnesandnoble.com inc. or any other person or entity.

Hey Aaron,
I'd consider the novations if they wern't so expensive, better off going Studiologic IMO but used is or a deal at a store is good.  I'm considering older models for sale on craigs or an old demo in a store.

Iain, couldn't agree with you more about the m-audio, just trying to be fair as I didn't take it home for a week to bash out, err, try.
Do you plan on selling your Fatar anytime soon btw ;>
also, you're correct, Kurz has a Fatar keybed and its good to know the action is better on the logics than the kurz!  I'm not looking for a lead type keybed as that's what my Nord is for, I use the evo as extra flavour and drones as well as weirdness.

Lastly, also considering a Korg M1 since 'apparently' they key action is suppose to be good and durable (please advise otherwise folks).  I don't really require hammer action or more than 61 keys but something much more than my previously stated dislikes and something that doesn't weigh as much as a kurz 88 key monster.

--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Bryden" <ibryden@...> wrote:

>
> Ubiquitousblack, I have a K2500X embedded in my studio as the controller
> for my just about everything, but I don't think it is well suited for
> synthy leads from the Evolver. The K2500X is also way too heavy for
> gigging and it's a real pain to set back up - making my studio unusable
> for too long. This is why I ended up buying a Studio Logic Fatar 1176
> (used from craigslist) that stays in the case when I'm not on a gig or
> certain rehearsals. The Roland XV-5080 is the center of my live rig and
> the Fatar controls that. 
>  
> The Fatar 1176 has 76 weighted keys, which is about all I need, and I
> very much prefer the feel over the Kurzweil. I believe Fatar makes the
> key bed for Kurzwiels', but I can tell you the feel is not the same. 61
> keys too limiting and 88 is too big for smaller clubs and too unwieldy
> for me to transport. 
>  
> I'm considering replacing the two items (Fatar and Roland XV), with a
> Fantom X7 to cut down on things to carry. I'm familiar with Roland, like
> their sounds, and have 4 expansion cards I'd hate to do without.
>  
> Also, you mentioned the M-Audio 88 key controller. IMO the M-Audio
> Keystation Pro is one of the worst keyboards I've ever tried. The keys
> have a strange action where the resistance disappears just before the
> key is all the way down, which makes it difficult to play softly.
>  
> Regards,
> -- Iain
>