Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

Hi OGD,

First,a disclaimer: 

Most of what I know of triggering comes from the Roland stuff.  

I had an DTXreme module for a while (a few days), and played 
with the DTXpress for an even shorter time (when a certain mail 
order company sent the DXTpress to me instead of the blem 
DTXteme module I actually ordered....  But THAT'S another 
story....)   :)

Therefore, please forgive me if I say something  that seems 
blatently obvious or that you all already know; I do it to try and 
avoid the potential for confusion that can arise due to differences 
in the way these modules detect trigger signals.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "oldguydrummer" 
<rdamon@m...> wrote:

> When you disconnect the piezo in the pad 1, the rim switches 
> in pad 1 will not trigger on their own. 

As we'd expect, as 'rim' triggering generally requires:

a)  trigger signal from a piezo AND 

b) rim-switch closure.

If these occur simultaneously, the module will know to trigger the 
sound assigned to the 'rim' (at least when a 'piezo/rim-switch' 
pad type is selected). 

In other words, you generally need a piezo signal on tip-sleeve, 
and a closure of the rim-switch detected by the module on 
ring-sleeve...  The piezo and rim-switch don't even physically 
need be on the same pad; the signal changes just have to occur 
simultaneously.

> I then patched a piezo from a second mono pad 2 on the 
> other side of the kit directly to the ring/sleeve of a plug 
> that goes directly into the module. 

Basically, that's how the rim of a dual-piezo pad is wired: 
ring/sleeve (same  as the rim-switch).

Now, obviously we can trigger the 'rim' sound with a dual-piezo 
pad in a trigger input that can handle dual-piezo pads (like the 
snare input, when the proper pad type is selected).

You didn't say what 'pad type' was selected when you did this, 
but even there, it IS possible to trigger the 'rim' sound with a 
piezo element (say with a dual-piezo pad), even when the 
piezo/rim-switch (e.g. PCY80S) 'pad type' is selected.  However, 
the very big 'catch' is you generally can't fire the 'rim' sound 
reliably from that 2nd piezo....    Why not?

The generated signal occasionally appears to be a rim-switch 
closure, but the problem is results are unpredictable, and hard 
to control when playing.  That's why dual-piezo pads don't work 
reliably (if at all) when a 'piezo/rim-switch' pad type is selected....

Kind of a OT: when I had those Yammie modules I confirmed 
that "Shack Adapting" does work quite reliably with the Yamaha 
modules.  This little mono-to-stereo adapter allows you to trigger 
head and rim sounds from mono-piezo mesh pads in a velocity 
cross-switching fashion, and in a very predictable and 
controllable manner.

Maybe not a deal for you DTX guys, as you have 
layering/switching capabilities in your modules, but who knows...  

Here's a thread from VDrums.com that'll basically applies to the 
DTX family of modules, too:

http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14272

At the very least, worth looking at, since the thread talks about 
some of this signal detection stuff....

I suspect the Shack Adapter MAY allow you to trigger all (3) 
sounds in a velocity cross-switch fashion with those newer 
trigger inputs, using only a mono-piezo mesh pad.  Maybe I'll try it 
at NAMM, if I get a chance.  ;)

> I then patched the rim switches from pad 1 onto the 
> tip/sleeve of the plug that goes directly into the 
> module. If you strike the the piezo on 
> pad2 at the same time as you strike the pad1 rim 
> switches the rim switches will trigger the correct voice 
> assigned to the rim.

Are you sure you didn't actually wire the rim-switches on pad 1 
as "ring-sleeve", and the piezo on the mono pad is wired 
"tip-sleeve"?  That would make more sense....

If you really did mean it the way you wrote it, then I suspect the 
rim switch is kind of a 'red herring' in this experiment: it's 
probably only the piezo triggering the rim 9as I mentioned 
above).

But even there, notice in the first paragraph I used the disclaimer 
"generally", when mentioning the simultaneity requirement for 
rim triggering.  Why?  

I have in fact held a disconnected rim-switch in my hand, wired it  
'ring/sleeve' to a plug, without an attached piezo, and triggered 
the rim sound just by closing this circuit.   No piezo involved.

What I think may be happening is under certain conditions the 
module may build up enough of a voltage difference across the 
rim-switch element on the ring-sleeve pathway enough to be 
confused when the circuit closes (almost like a capacitor 
charging up or something)....  Just a guess...  Maybe some 
charge is being detected from my fingers: dunno....I never looked 
deeply into it.

> So in other words, even though there isn't a direct 
> connection in the pad it self between the piezo/rim FSR, 
> the module does need a  near simultaneous strike from 
> both the piezo (no matter how little 
> the strike is) and from the rim switch in order for the 
> rim switch to trigger the Dtxpress module.

I think you're referring to the fact that the two signals need to be 
detected simultaneously, and the elements don't need to be on 
the same pad?

Chris


> 
> 
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "feefer2" <feefer2@y...> 
wrote:
> > Hi OGD,
> > 
> > Hmmm, interesting.  Thanks for the info.
> > 
> > It should be very straightforward to solder together a 'y' cable 
> > (with series resistor in the ring 2 pathway) to use a Roland 
> > CY-12R/C or CY-15R (3)-zone pad in one of  the newer 
Yamaha 
> > modules.
> > 
> > Maybe not important to you guys (who would just buy the 
> > PCY150), but nice for those of us who have Roland guys who 
> > may want to convert pads to be compatible with the 
DTXtreme IIS 
> > module (depending on what else happens at NAMM)....
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "oldguydrummer" 
> > <rdamon@m...> wrote:
> > > --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" 
> > > <moosetication@y...> wrote:
> > > > OGD, anything obvious from the circuitry when you 
> > disassembled 
> > > yours?
> > > > 
> > > Stewart/Chris,
> > > 
> > > The tip/sleeve are run separately through two resistors R1 
& 
> > R2 to 
> > > the connector CN1 that has the two leads that goes to the 
> > piezo on 
> > > the metal plate on the pad.
> > > 
> > > The ring/sleeve are run separately from the piezo circuitry. 
The 
> > > ring circuit is split into to pathways, one circuit is run 
> directly 
> > > to the rim 1 FSR and the second circuit is run through a 
> > resistor to 
> > > the rim 2 FSR.
> > > 
> > > Thus a large current passed through the ring/sleeve circuit 
is 
> > > interpeted as rim 1 triggering and a small current passed 
> > through 
> > > the ring/sleeve is interpeted as rim 2 triggering. 
> > > 
> > > There is no connection between the circuitry of the piezo 
and 
> > the 
> > > rim switches.
> > > 
> > > The TP-65 has the same PCB as the TP-65S, except the 
single 
> > > resistor  R3 and Connnector CN2 are not present.
> > > 
> > > OGD