Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

Hello,

I'm fairly new to electronic drums and was wondering if anyone could
shed some light on this dilemma I'm having.  I pretty much had my
heart set on a DTX3SP until recently I saw some amazing prices on the
Pintech Studio Elite Kits (2003 ed). Seems I can have both the Pintech
and an Alesis DM Pro drum modual for < 1k. Can anyone with experience
comment on the  pros/cons of these kits vs each other? Especially in
terms of playability and sound quality. The quality of the pintech
snare and toms seems to be a big plus, but the hi-hat does not look as
nice. So, is it easy to set up Pintech kits with the DMPro? Would I
still have all the playability and expressiveness of a DTX3SP?

Thanks for your advice,
Ken

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "K2500X" <drdistefano@y...> wrote:

> I'm fairly new to electronic drums and was wondering if anyone could
> shed some light on this dilemma I'm having.  I pretty much had my
> heart set on a DTX3SP until recently I saw some amazing prices on 
the
> Pintech Studio Elite Kits (2003 ed). Seems I can have both the 
Pintech
> and an Alesis DM Pro drum modual for < 1k. Can anyone with 
experience
> comment on the  pros/cons of these kits vs each other? Especially in
> terms of playability and sound quality. The quality of the pintech
> snare and toms seems to be a big plus, but the hi-hat does not look 
as
> nice. So, is it easy to set up Pintech kits with the DMPro? Would I
> still have all the playability and expressiveness of a DTX3SP?

Hi Ken,

Welcome. You really do have a dilemma, and you know as well as I that 
the final decision will rest with how you weigh the options. But I 
will tell you that the Alesis DM Pro is a solid module. Sound quality 
is a personal issue, so I won't presume to compare them out of the 
blue. What you do get with the Alesis, in addition to its extensive 
range of sounds/kits, is a lot of inputs (16), as well as sampling 
capability (if that interests you), which is a relative rarity still 
in the edrum world. 

However, the Alesis Pro has been around a long time, and its value 
has gradually eroded in the face of admittedly incremental 
developments elsewhere. For one thing, its inputs are all mono--not 
necessarily a bad thing with the Pintech ConcertCast pads, which are 
either mono or dual mono--but it can't give you two, or even three 
sounds, on one input like the DTXpress can with the appropriate pads 
(its own). Some people wouldn't be bothered by that, since Yamaha's, 
or Roland's, "switch" or "membrane" zones arguably aren't as 
realistic as true dual zones. But so-called stereo pads will not find 
a convenient home with the Alesis. 

The Alesis boils down to a solid nuts and bolts, basic module without 
the bells and whistles (sequencer, groove control, songs, etc.) that 
even an entry-level module like the DTXpress can offer. In its favor, 
it's got a 20 bit engine and six outputs, rather than the DTXpress' 
standard stereo pair, permitting better control of the sound once it 
leaves the module. Like the DTXpress, it has inputs that allow the 
kit to be mixed with recorded music for practice. I can't remember 
whether the hi hat is limited to open/close, rather than the "full" 
range allowed by the DTXpress module. Also on the down side, I'm not 
sure that Alesis even has the DM Pro on the active roster any more. 
Yamaha's relations with its electronic drummers are the best in the 
business. 

So far as the Pintech Studio Elite is concerned, it is definitely a 
top notch instrument, and the Alesis is perfect for it, provided the 
sounds pass muster for you. Mesh heads have certain advantages over 
the gum rubber on the DTXpress. Some people find them easier on the 
joints, and they approximate acoustic drums better in certain 
respects. The degree of similarity depends a little on the heads 
used. Pintech's heads, like Rolands, tend toward the bouncy. The best 
mesh heads were the two-ply Harts, which are out of production for 
reasons that we don't need to explore here. Nonetheless, drumming 
with mesh heads can be a rewarding experience. Many people gravitate 
toward them--whether Pintech's, Hart's, or Roland's--after a 
beginning stint with gum rubber. The only rubber pads that rival good 
meshes, in my opinion, are those with the new DTXtreme. They are 
terrific. Remember also that woven heads don't last forever. They 
will need to be changed eventually, like mylar heads, no matter how 
you play. I'm sure that some people can play the same rubber pads 
indefinitely; they might well catch the upgrade bug well before the 
pads start showing any signs of serious wear (except for the Yamaha 
kick, which may require a little care to prevent deterioration). 

you're right about the hi hat on the Elite. I'll take the Yamaha on 
the DTXPSP or the Visu-lite anyday over that arrangement. But you can 
always get another hi hat on a stand down the road. The Pintech 
Zenbal cymbals are good, and the ConcertCast kick a definite step up 
over the Yamaha KP. All in all, playability of the Pintech kit with 
the DM Pro is nothing to sneeze at, and it certainly doesn't take a 
backseat to the DTXpress. With that combination, you will be free to 
experiment with all sorts of variations. You can get another module--
a Roland or a ddrum--or you can try other mesh heads/pads and 
different cymbals--Harts, visu-lites, Rolands, et al. It's not quite 
as easy to incorporate other companies' components into a Yamaha 
context, although Pintech has always been a fairly safe and popular 
choice, and the company has become more and more interested in 
catering to Yamaha users. (Pintech may be sending OGD and me a ZB3 
cymbal to review with Yamaha modules; stay tuned).

I've taken up enough room without really answering your question, but 
I hope that I've given you a few things to consider on your own. Keep 
us posted on what you decide to do, and please feel free to run more 
questions and ideas by us. The best thing to do after plowing through 
the paper work is to play and listen to both contestants. 
Unfortunately, that's often impossible.

Ed

Wow, thanks for that very nice reply Ed. And in searching this group
I've found your contributions to this forum have been frequent and
invaluable...

Well the quick update is that I'm still struggling with this decision
and it's now giving me a headache cause it's taking up waaaay too much
of my time. So I've decided I should go with a complete system that's
been tailoredto a specific sound module. It's not that I can't handle
building my own system. But I just want the kit to work as close to a
real drum kit as possible. So an ultra expressive hi hat and cymbal
choking are are necessary. My budget is < $1500 right now. Sound
quality is also really important. Which brings up a question. The MP3
demos that are on etxperience.com, why they are the same ones for both
the express and extreme? I would figure the extreme would have much
better sound quality.  So my choices right now are a DTX3SP new, or
possibly a used DTXtreme2s. Actually I heard the ddrum4 and was blown
away. So if I could get a used ddrum4 in my price range that would
probably be my top choice at this point. I also like the fact that the
ddrum 4 is compact. What do ya think?

Again expressing my sincere gratitude,
Ken

> 
> Hi Ken,
> 
> Welcome. You really do have a dilemma, and you know as well as I that 
> the final decision will rest with how you weigh the options. But I 
> will tell you that the Alesis DM Pro is a solid module. Sound quality 
> is a personal issue, so I won't presume to compare them out of the 
> blue. What you do get with the Alesis, in addition to its extensive 
> range of sounds/kits, is a lot of inputs (16), as well as sampling 
> capability (if that interests you), which is a relative rarity still 
> in the edrum world. 
> 
> However, the Alesis Pro has been around a long time, and its value 
> has gradually eroded in the face of admittedly incremental 
> developments elsewhere. For one thing, its inputs are all mono--not 
> necessarily a bad thing with the Pintech ConcertCast pads, which are 
> either mono or dual mono--but it can't give you two, or even three 
> sounds, on one input like the DTXpress can with the appropriate pads 
> (its own). Some people wouldn't be bothered by that, since Yamaha's, 
> or Roland's, "switch" or "membrane" zones arguably aren't as 
> realistic as true dual zones. But so-called stereo pads will not find 
> a convenient home with the Alesis. 
> 
> The Alesis boils down to a solid nuts and bolts, basic module without 
> the bells and whistles (sequencer, groove control, songs, etc.) that 
> even an entry-level module like the DTXpress can offer. In its favor, 
> it's got a 20 bit engine and six outputs, rather than the DTXpress' 
> standard stereo pair, permitting better control of the sound once it 
> leaves the module. Like the DTXpress, it has inputs that allow the 
> kit to be mixed with recorded music for practice. I can't remember 
> whether the hi hat is limited to open/close, rather than the "full" 
> range allowed by the DTXpress module. Also on the down side, I'm not 
> sure that Alesis even has the DM Pro on the active roster any more. 
> Yamaha's relations with its electronic drummers are the best in the 
> business. 
> 
> So far as the Pintech Studio Elite is concerned, it is definitely a 
> top notch instrument, and the Alesis is perfect for it, provided the 
> sounds pass muster for you. Mesh heads have certain advantages over 
> the gum rubber on the DTXpress. Some people find them easier on the 
> joints, and they approximate acoustic drums better in certain 
> respects. The degree of similarity depends a little on the heads 
> used. Pintech's heads, like Rolands, tend toward the bouncy. The best 
> mesh heads were the two-ply Harts, which are out of production for 
> reasons that we don't need to explore here. Nonetheless, drumming 
> with mesh heads can be a rewarding experience. Many people gravitate 
> toward them--whether Pintech's, Hart's, or Roland's--after a 
> beginning stint with gum rubber. The only rubber pads that rival good 
> meshes, in my opinion, are those with the new DTXtreme. They are 
> terrific. Remember also that woven heads don't last forever. They 
> will need to be changed eventually, like mylar heads, no matter how 
> you play. I'm sure that some people can play the same rubber pads 
> indefinitely; they might well catch the upgrade bug well before the 
> pads start showing any signs of serious wear (except for the Yamaha 
> kick, which may require a little care to prevent deterioration). 
> 
> you're right about the hi hat on the Elite. I'll take the Yamaha on 
> the DTXPSP or the Visu-lite anyday over that arrangement. But you can 
> always get another hi hat on a stand down the road. The Pintech 
> Zenbal cymbals are good, and the ConcertCast kick a definite step up 
> over the Yamaha KP. All in all, playability of the Pintech kit with 
> the DM Pro is nothing to sneeze at, and it certainly doesn't take a 
> backseat to the DTXpress. With that combination, you will be free to 
> experiment with all sorts of variations. You can get another module--
> a Roland or a ddrum--or you can try other mesh heads/pads and 
> different cymbals--Harts, visu-lites, Rolands, et al. It's not quite 
> as easy to incorporate other companies' components into a Yamaha 
> context, although Pintech has always been a fairly safe and popular 
> choice, and the company has become more and more interested in 
> catering to Yamaha users. (Pintech may be sending OGD and me a ZB3 
> cymbal to review with Yamaha modules; stay tuned).
> 
> I've taken up enough room without really answering your question, but 
> I hope that I've given you a few things to consider on your own. Keep 
> us posted on what you decide to do, and please feel free to run more 
> questions and ideas by us. The best thing to do after plowing through 
> the paper work is to play and listen to both contestants. 
> Unfortunately, that's often impossible.
> 
> Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "K2500X" <drdistefano@y...> wrote:
 
> Well the quick update is that I'm still struggling with this 
decision
> and it's now giving me a headache cause it's taking up waaaay too 
much
> of my time. So I've decided I should go with a complete system 
that's
> been tailoredto a specific sound module. It's not that I can't 
handle
> building my own system. But I just want the kit to work as close to 
a
> real drum kit as possible. So an ultra expressive hi hat and cymbal
> choking are are necessary. My budget is < $1500 right now. Sound
> quality is also really important. Which brings up a question. The 
MP3
> demos that are on etxperience.com, why they are the same ones for 
both
> the express and extreme? I would figure the extreme would have much
> better sound quality.  So my choices right now are a DTX3SP new, or
> possibly a used DTXtreme2s. Actually I heard the ddrum4 and was 
blown
> away. So if I could get a used ddrum4 in my price range that would
> probably be my top choice at this point. I also like the fact that 
the
> ddrum 4 is compact. What do ya think?

Ken,

Going with an all in one package will certainly cut down on the 
headaches. Mixing and matching isn't always terribly hard, but for 
novices it can be demanding. The DTXpress IIISP and the DTXtreme IIS 
have the hi hat on a stand, which I personally find indispensable, 
even to the point of trumping any older setup that might have 
marginally better sounds. I haven't any problem with the sounds on 
the DTXPressIII or the DTXtreme modules per se; in fact, for what 
they are, I'm generally impressed. By the way, I didn't know that the 
DTXtremeIIS had any mp3s associated with it at this point, or is it 
video that I'm thining of?  At any rate, so far as the basic specs of 
sound quality are concerned, both the Xpress and the Xtreme are still 
16 bit systems, but the Xtreme has more quality sounds from Yamaha's 
synth stable, as well as a host of other convenience features, 
including the eminently playable snare and tom pads. But if your 
budget can't swing it, the DTXpress IIISP is not a bad compromise at 
all, and it will accommodate upgrades from the Xtreme.

The ddrum4 definitely has the capacity to blow people away, despite 
the fact that much of it is ten years old. The sad part is that after 
years of rumors concerning the imminent arrival of a ddrum5, which 
even some industry people took seriously, Clavia has apparently 
confessed that it has no plans for an overhaul whatsoever. But $1500 
should be able to get you a complete ddrum4 kit, which is, as you 
say, compact and geared toward approximating the sounds and feel of 
acoustic percussion than the standard Yamaha and Rolands. I won't 
rehearse all of the ddrum4's advantages; you can find them on 
Clavia's website. But be forewarned that the kit isn't expandable, 
except by buying a second module, that it's memory capacity for even 
its own huge, brilliant library, is incredibly small--making the 
number of desirable kits on the module at any one time fairly small 
(primarily the mega-kits, which are irresistable once you hear them)--
that downloading new sounds from the web is a pain in the neck, and 
that its cymbals and hi hat are, to a large extent, proprietary. 
Cymbals from other companies will not choke, and they will not be 
able to reproduce the ddrum's positional sensing (which isn't 
universal, anyway), though they may do so eccentrically. I use Visu-
lite cymbals with a ddrum module; the positional anomalies are 
acceptable to me. The ddrum hi hat works on a principle different 
from that of any other company, but it is worth its questionable 
looks. Other companies' snare/tom pads with the ddrum4 are not so 
critical; sometimes they are even an advantage. Clavia's own mesh 
heads will not do its sporadic positional sensing with the module's 
OS (only its mylar ones will); Pintechs and Harts may very well do so 
because of where their piezos are mounted.

Again, I've taken up a lot of room. For you, the choice appears to be 
between the XpressIIISP and the ddrum4 on sale or used. For me, 
nothing beats the sound quality of the ddrum, despite its warts, but 
I also have a second module in my kit and non-ddrum components 
integrated with it to pick up the slack. The second module is a 
Yamaha.

Ed

Well Ed, I haven't seen any ddrum kits 'on sale' for $1500, but if you
do please let me know cause I'll buy in a second ;). As far as the
limitations of the ddrum. I can definitely handle them. I think like
most people I would just find the best 2-3 mega-kits that suit me and
be happy with the quality of them. I'm not interested in 199 different
'so-so' kits as on other modules. I can always EQ and process the
ddrum kits as I see fit after recording...  So obviously the mesh
heads on the ddrum will be better than the DTX3SP, but do you have any
specific comments about the ddrum cymbals/hat vs. DTX3SP cymbals/hat?
I must admit the ddrum cymbals do not look very realistic in pictures.
The other option would be to go with a DTX3SP kit and then when I can
afford it also buy a computer drum sound library. I hear some of these
are 10+GIG of drums sounds, and have support for e-drum kits.
Specifically Toontrack's DFH (35GIGs of drums?!). I wonder how well it
plays though.

Happy Turkey Day!
Ken

> 
> Ken,
> 
> Going with an all in one package will certainly cut down on the 
> headaches. Mixing and matching isn't always terribly hard, but for 
> novices it can be demanding. The DTXpress IIISP and the DTXtreme IIS 
> have the hi hat on a stand, which I personally find indispensable, 
> even to the point of trumping any older setup that might have 
> marginally better sounds. I haven't any problem with the sounds on 
> the DTXPressIII or the DTXtreme modules per se; in fact, for what 
> they are, I'm generally impressed. By the way, I didn't know that the 
> DTXtremeIIS had any mp3s associated with it at this point, or is it 
> video that I'm thining of?  At any rate, so far as the basic specs of 
> sound quality are concerned, both the Xpress and the Xtreme are still 
> 16 bit systems, but the Xtreme has more quality sounds from Yamaha's 
> synth stable, as well as a host of other convenience features, 
> including the eminently playable snare and tom pads. But if your 
> budget can't swing it, the DTXpress IIISP is not a bad compromise at 
> all, and it will accommodate upgrades from the Xtreme.
> 
> The ddrum4 definitely has the capacity to blow people away, despite 
> the fact that much of it is ten years old. The sad part is that after 
> years of rumors concerning the imminent arrival of a ddrum5, which 
> even some industry people took seriously, Clavia has apparently 
> confessed that it has no plans for an overhaul whatsoever. But $1500 
> should be able to get you a complete ddrum4 kit, which is, as you 
> say, compact and geared toward approximating the sounds and feel of 
> acoustic percussion than the standard Yamaha and Rolands. I won't 
> rehearse all of the ddrum4's advantages; you can find them on 
> Clavia's website. But be forewarned that the kit isn't expandable, 
> except by buying a second module, that it's memory capacity for even 
> its own huge, brilliant library, is incredibly small--making the 
> number of desirable kits on the module at any one time fairly small 
> (primarily the mega-kits, which are irresistable once you hear them)--
> that downloading new sounds from the web is a pain in the neck, and 
> that its cymbals and hi hat are, to a large extent, proprietary. 
> Cymbals from other companies will not choke, and they will not be 
> able to reproduce the ddrum's positional sensing (which isn't 
> universal, anyway), though they may do so eccentrically. I use Visu-
> lite cymbals with a ddrum module; the positional anomalies are 
> acceptable to me. The ddrum hi hat works on a principle different 
> from that of any other company, but it is worth its questionable 
> looks. Other companies' snare/tom pads with the ddrum4 are not so 
> critical; sometimes they are even an advantage. Clavia's own mesh 
> heads will not do its sporadic positional sensing with the module's 
> OS (only its mylar ones will); Pintechs and Harts may very well do so 
> because of where their piezos are mounted.
> 
> Again, I've taken up a lot of room. For you, the choice appears to be 
> between the XpressIIISP and the ddrum4 on sale or used. For me, 
> nothing beats the sound quality of the ddrum, despite its warts, but 
> I also have a second module in my kit and non-ddrum components 
> integrated with it to pick up the slack. The second module is a 
> Yamaha.
> 
> Ed