Digital BW, The Print

Robbe, Keith, All,

While my opinion of Yahoo is on a par with everyone else's, I think we may
have wandered rather far off topic for the group. Could we wrap this thread
up?

Thanks,
Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robbe Gibson" <videocinema@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] [Fwd: Formal Shot across Yahoo!'s Bow.. -- they
may be violating their posted privacy policy]


> Hi Keith,
>
> I agree in general terms with almost everything you wrote. I'm not
> sure you can stuff a Yahoo or AOL into the marketing model you're
> trying to build.
>
> >1)  Yahoo! has been showing a profit..
>
> What's that got to do with the issue at hand?  Yahoo isn't known for
> it's benevolence. I'm guessing they're trying to make more money
> rather than save money. There is a difference. They're probably not
> interested offering dividends to their loyal users of free services.
>
> >3)    No-one forced YAHOO! to purchase e-groups, as an example..
>
> Who said that when you took over an entity you had to leave it intact?
>
> >
> >The problem, as I see it today,  is as follows...
> >
> >No-one begrudges them revenue, but do you think they might even TRY to
> >coordinate advertising with list content?
>
> That would cost more.
>
> >
> >Wouldn't ads from EPSON, MediaStreet, TSS, Lyson, Luminos, Canon, etc.
> >get more clickthroughs on this list than do the random ads we get now?
>
> Why not try to get one or several of the above to sponsor a list on
> their site and leave Yahoo?
>
> >
> >Instead, we get adds for X10 wireless cameras, credit repair,
> >scholarships, cd's, whatever...  They have naturally targeted lists and
> >yet they use birdshot from a blunderbuss to target their advertising..
> >  Talk about "not a clue!"
>
> The above are mass market appeal. Epson, et al are not likely to pay
> much for banners that may only appeal to a few thousand people.
> Consider it this way: How many people on the 'Digital BW' group have
> never heard of Epson? Now, the Hewlett Packard guys might want to
> throw a log on the fire.  :-)   I believe the 'Digital BW' group is
> way above average in size. For Yahoo to build a marketing staff
> around tailoring ads to groups of only a few hundred would make no
> economic sense.
>
> >
> >The fact is, they want a quick and easy, no-effort way to make an
> >assured revenue stream.. That doesn't exist in any business.. It existed
> >for a brief time in the dot-com lands, but not today...
>
> Maybe, maybe not.  I guess they'll find out.  Most of California and
> a lot of Florida was built on that premise!
>
> >
> >
> >If they don't tailor their ENTIRE model to the real world, it won't
> >work..
>
> That's exactly why there are no 'niche' ads/banners.
>
> >  Right now they are only apparently focused upon the short-term
> >cash-flow without doing the obvious things I mentioned about advertising
> >etc.. You don't advertise Geritol on the Cartoon channel or Nick at
> >Night... they seem to be at a loss when it comes to learning some of the
> >basic lessons traditional media have known for years..
>
> Shotgun advertising has been around for a long time....
> And, given current marketing trends, you don't try to sell Geritol to
> old people either.
>
> >
> >  >
> >  > Is the information on this or any other group worth more than what is
> >  > presently being paid?
> >  > If so, there are lots of options and all of them are more or less
> >  > spam-free and ad-free.
> >
> >Such as?
>
> The IBMWR organization for one.  The groups at DPreview, the DV-L
> list, all the majordomo stuff...there are lots of them out there.
> None of them were as easy to form as the yahoo groups.  As far as
> libraries, reference material, etc, the IBMWR list has more
> information on how to properly torque an oil filter than the sum
> total of information in the 'Digital BW' archive. Rebuilding the
> group on a different platform isn't impossible, but it would take a
> little work.  What price freedom?
>
> >
> >Which of those options preserves the current  group oriented format,
> >prevents spam abuse and culling of names, and has the same real-time
> >response cycle.
>
> SPAM-abuse is greater on the Yahoo groups than any of the independent
> lists to which I belong.  Further, Yahoo hasn't been that real-time.
> I and others have had messages that would have gotten there faster
> via USPS.
> Anyway, see the above lists.
>
> >And there is no guarantee that any hosted service will
> >remain ad/spam free.
>
> Reference the above lists, I've never seen the spam discussions that
> Yahoo seems to generate. Of course, I've never noticed any banner
> ads, either.
>
> >  Clearly YAHOO is trying to redefine the paradigm
> >unilaterally... If they succeed unimpeded, others will follow suit..
>
> They will probably succeed, but there will be fallout.  It may depend
> on how seriously others view either side of the issue.
>
> >
> >  >
> >  > If not, live with it as you are getting what you paid for.
> >  >
> >  >
> >But that is inaccurate... We have all already paid for past service by
> >enduring the advertising becoming more and more intrusive, e-mail spam,
> >etc..
>
>
> If the user is willing to tolerate/ignore the ads, their perception
> is that the service is free.  And Yahoo is banking on that.  Of the
> groups that I presently am a member, I have not seen ANYONE willing
> to spend a few bucks to become ad-free.
>
> >  And that would be a FAIR choice if people knew about the changes
> >to their user and group preferences..  It's not at all fair when YAHOO!
> >makes those changes in a covert and underhanded manner.
>
> That's Yahoo...love it or leave it...
>
> >
> >The issue is, like any in marketing,  what cost is the market willing to
> >bear?
>
> My question, exactly!
>
> >
> >Complaints, etc.. tell the marketers where the boundaries are and how to
> >take that into account when looking at cost/profit ratios.. One doesn't
> >simply "vote with one's feet and leave"  as Harry Truman said.  There is
> >feedback in the process other than simple numbers..
>
> When you have marketing people and trends such as Paypal's people
> making statements that they don't give any real credence to letters
> of complaint as those complainers are just a vocal minority that
> would complain about anything, voting with your feet is just about
> the only other choice.
>
>
> I still think the question of the day is: Is the information from
> this group or another worth paying anything for?
> Again, no reflection on any individual or group.  Simply what is the
> information worth?
>
> I'm done.
> Please, everyone go out(or in) and make some images, take some
> pictures, create some art, or whatever it is you do.  If that's not
> more satisfying than typing on a keyboard, then.... oh never mind.
> And if you bring one back alive, consider adding it the the group's
> vast library of 2  (two!!!) images.  Strange, a photo group that has
> 50 or 60 pages of mathematical formulas but only two photos!   :-)
> :-)   :-)  Just kidding!
>
> Robbe Gibson
> www.robbepp.com
> '00 R1100RT, K6RAG, '01 TJ, '71 Westy, F5, EOS-1HV, D30, Wisner tech
> field 4x5, G4 Powerbook
> Pick whichever floats your wagon. :-)
>
> Oh yeah, and if anyone in the Orange County, Southern California area
> is interested in getting together for some 'my clog is bigger than
> your clog' stories, I'll buy the first round!
>
>
>
>
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