Digital BW, The Print

Roy,

> Austin,
>
> You did write this, didn't you?
> > > > > If the file only contains 256 levels of gray, and IF (BIG
> IF) what you claim
> > > > > is true, that standard Piezo is capable of 1000 tones,
> where do the extra
> > > > > 744 levels of gray come from? How, exactly, are they derived?
>
> Don't Jon and I answer where the other 744 levels come from?

No, neither of you did.  You speculated, and Jon simply didn't answer it.  I
understand how they CAN be derived, but not how they ARE derived.

> You are off on a tangent that people already understand and is
> > not in dispute.  Yes, the output does not match the input 1:1,
> and YES it is
> > THEORETICALLY possible to produce INFINITE tones with only 1
> ink, and I've
> > said this way early in the discussion.  That all doesn't mean
> that the Piezo
> > does in fact print 1000 tones though.
>
> Jon's Piezo website claims this.  I make no claim whether or not
> it actually
> does this, because I don't know.  I only claim that your argument
> of 8-bit can't
> make 1000 levels is flawed.

I never said it CAN'T make 1000 theoretically...just that I doubt it
actually DOES in reality.  What's flawed?  Where is the flaw?  Precisely...
Don't simply say something is flawed, and not say what about it is flawed.
I've been VERY precise with my disbelief in the 1000 tone claim, citing
reasons why I believe the physical hardware and inks don't do it.

> The problem is you can't
> PROVE it false mathematically.

I CAN PROVE it mathematically.  I've ALWAYS said that, and completely
understand how it THEORETICALLY can be done.  And, as I've said, you don't
need four inks to do so.  That merely reduces the area you need to do it.

> All either one of us can do is speculate

Not so.  I can ask to see an example that shows 1000 tones.  That's not
speculation at all.  I simply don't want to speculate, I want to know if the
claim is true or not.  Not mumbo jumbo theoretical fluff.  This is reality.
Does there exist a print that was printed with Piezo that has 1000 distinct
tones.  Can I print a 1000 tone step wedge and discern all 1000 tones.
Simple question.  Tyler was kind enough to give me a 256 step wedge.  I will
print it, and chart the results.  If I can't measure 256 distinct tones with
my X-Rite 810, then I am even more skeptical that it can print 1000.

> The only info we really have is that the Piezo website claims 1000 grays.
> Maybe Cone has measured them all, maybe he hasn't.  Maybe he calculated
> it theoretically, maybe not.  Maybe it just marketing hype, maybe not.
> Maybe he'd tell us which, maybe not.  Maybe we should care, maybe not.

And claims should be backed up with some substantiation...that's all I ask.

> "HOW it may do it" doesn't prove that it does, but it does disprove the
> argument that it's impossible.

There is a VAST difference between things being theoretically "shown to
work" on paper, and working in reality.  If you are a scientist or an
engineer, you should certainly understand that...if you've ever had to
actually make something work.  Something MAY look good on paper, but
completely fail in reality.  So, because I know it is theoretically possible
does not prove that it's not impossible.

> BTW, a little aside:  I noticed on the piezo website that the claim of
> 2160 dpi is now qualified by the word "effectively" -- a nice addition.

And that is an issue that I've had too, as the physical hardware can simply
not do that, as far as I can tell from the service manual and the Epson
programming documentation I have access to.  The printer is only hardware
capable of 1440...and Jon made a claim that there are more commands that the
printer has than the ones published...and I believe that...but whether any
of them actually allow you to get around the physical hardware limitation is
still left unexplained...

Regards,

Austin