I think there is more latitude with scanning and printing digitally than with printing to paper. But I don't know how much. I have two images that seem to be blocked in the highlights no matter how I scan or manipulate in S/W. They were slightly over developed for the exposure. I either didn't read my meter correctly or didn't take enough readings when I took the shot. It could have been a different batch of film, I could have read the thermometer wrong. I just don't know what happened. It's a nice image and I thought I might be able to save it by scanning and processing but no luck. These images are not badly blocked but I couldn't do any better in S/W than I could in the wet darkroom with them. Truman Kevin Gulstene wrote: >Truman, > >Also it is going to depend a lot on the film/developer you are using. > >Using pg 247 of "the negative" the N curve is steeper than the N-1 >curve, as you would expect, but the density difference at zone 12 is >about 0.4 (2.1 vs 1.7). I am fairly sure that you wouldn't notice any >difference between the scan of a film with a denisty range of 2 and the >scan of a film with the density range of 1.7. After applying the set >points I don't think there would be much difference. > >Compensating 4 stops may produce enough density difference to be seen >in the scan. That is much more extreme case than I have any experience >with. > >On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 07:14 PM, Truman Prevatt wrote: > > > >>This assumes that the highlights don't saturate the film - hence losing >>detail. I think you have a bit more latitude with a scanner when it >>comes to development, but not a lot more. If the highlights are >>saturated - they are gone forever. >> >>Truman >> >>Kevin Gulstene wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi Ken, >>> >>>Let's take your high contrast scene. Lets assume that 14 stops of >>>scene brightness are mapped to a a film density range of .05 to 1.8 >>>with the zone system compensations. When you scan that piece of film >>>and apply the set points you will then map a density of .05 to 100%k >>>and the density of 1.8 to 0%k. >>> >>>Take an identical exposure of the same scene with anther piece of >>>film. >>> This film has no development compensation. The 14 stops of scene >>>brightness are then mapped to a density range of .06 to 2.3. When you >>>scan that piece of film and apply the set points you will map the >>>density of of .06 to 100%k and a density of 2.3 to 0%k. >>> >>>It seems to me that as long as the maximum film density is within the >>>specs of your scanner it doesn't matter whether you used N or N-4 >>>development. You have to make the scene brightness fit between black >>>and white one way or another. You can do it with development or math >>>in the scanner. The result, it seems to me is the same. >>> >>>Clearly you have to set a film speed appropriately to capture the >>>shadow details but I am not convinced that modifying the film >>>development is required to capture the highlights when you are >>>scanning >>>a negative. >>> >>>That is what I am trying to come to grips with. >>> >>>Thanks for your help >>> >>>On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Ken Carney wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>From my perspective, the point of the zone system is to get a >>>>>negative with >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>reasonable shadow and highlight tones. If you have a negative with a >>>>blown-out highlight, I don't think any scanner will help you. For >>>>example, >>>>take a high contrast scene that may take N-4 development (here >>>>reduced >>>>film >>>>speed and compensating development in dilute HC110 or TMax RS). I >>>>have many >>>>negs like this that scan well, but I can't picture how I could get a >>>>good >>>>tonal range with say, normal development. In fact, the only problems >>>>I have >>>>had in scanning LF negs with expanded and compressed development have >>>>been >>>>those developed in pyro (Rollo or PMK), since the stain produces some >>>>challenges in getting a good scan. I would say go for the best neg >>>>you >>>>would use for a silver print. >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>> >>>> --Ken Carney >>>> www.kencarney.com >>>> >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Kevin Gulstene" <kevin@...> >>>>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:53 PM >>>>Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning and Zone Sys Development. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Is zone system development time manipulation irrelevant when >>>>>scanning >>>>>film as opposed to traditional printing? That is the question I >>>>>would >>>>>like some help with. >>>>> >>>>>My understanding is that the zone system is way of ensuring a >>>>>constant >>>>>density range on the negative independent of the brightness range of >>>>>the scene. This is desirable because it makes most scenes printable >>>>>on >>>>>a grade 2 paper (leaving the other grades available for artistic >>>>>interpretation) and it helps minimize the stuffing around in the >>>>>darkroom required to get a good print. >>>>> >>>>>Since I am not doing wet prints but am scanning the negatives, it >>>>>seems >>>>>to me that the N- or N+ development dependent on the scene >>>>>brightness >>>>>range is, mostly, irrelevant. By setting the black point, setting >>>>>the >>>>>white point and scanning the negative am I not mapping the entire >>>>>density range of the image to a numerical range of 0-256 or 0-64k? >>>>>This mapping would take place independent of the absolute density >>>>>any >>>>>particular zone. >>>>> >>>>>As a hypothetical example lets assume a scene contains a 8 stop >>>>>range >>>>>of brightness. Three images are similarly exposed to capture that >>>>>brightnesses range. The three images are given different development >>>>>times and produce density ranges of (1.0-0.3=.7), (1.4-0.4=1.0) and >>>>>(2.0-.5=1.5). When the images are scanned each one will produce a >>>>>full >>>>>histogram from 0 to 255 and a scene brightness at the 6th of the >>>>>eight >>>>>stops will show up at the same place in each of the histograms. >>>>> >>>>>Soooo, can't I simplify the zone mantra to "expose for the shadows >>>>>and >>>>>let the highlights fall where they may with normal development". >>>>>Also, >>>>> wouldn't it be better to generally use N+1 development times so >>>>>that >>>>>the numbers from the raw scan occupied more of the scanner's range? >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for your help >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >>>>> >>>>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >>>>>to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this >>>>same >>>>page. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Please follow these basic guidelines: >>>>>- Include your full name with your message. >>>>>- Include the address of your website, if you have one. >>>>>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages >>>>>to >>>>>keep >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>them short. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >>>>>header. >>>>>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>&amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>- Complete your Yahoo profile. >>>>>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >>>>>various >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>resources on the homepage. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >>>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >>>>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >>>> >>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >>>> >>>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >>>>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting >>>>this same page. >>>> >>>>Please follow these basic guidelines: >>>>- Include your full name with your message. >>>>- Include the address of your website, if you have one. >>>>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >>>>keep them short. >>>>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >>>>header. >>>>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >>>>&amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >>>>- Complete your Yahoo profile. >>>>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >>>>various resources on the homepage. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >>>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >>> >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >>> >>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >>>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting >>>this same page. >>> >>>Please follow these basic guidelines: >>>- Include your full name with your message. >>>- Include the address of your website, if you have one. >>>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >>>keep them short. >>>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >>>header. >>>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >>>&amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >>>- Complete your Yahoo profile. >>>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >>>various resources on the homepage. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting >>this same page. >> >>Please follow these basic guidelines: >>- Include your full name with your message. >>- Include the address of your website, if you have one. >>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >>keep them short. >>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >>header. >>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >>&amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >>- Complete your Yahoo profile. >>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >>various resources on the homepage. >> >> >> >> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> >> >> > > >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > >Please follow these basic guidelines: >- Include your full name with your message. >- Include the address of your website, if you have one. >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. >- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >- Complete your Yahoo profile. >- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message
Re: [Digital BW] Scanning and Zone Sys Development.
2003-01-08 by Truman Prevatt