Digital BW, The Print

Kevin: I can very quickly run out of knowledge about scanning (or exactly
how electricity works, for that matter).  I may well be missing the point,
but here is where I'm stuck.  Let's suppose I have a common high-contrast
scene, say a long 10-15 minute exposure and the meter says, e.g., that Zone
8 is placed four stops above where I need it.  I don't know any way to
capture that image without adjusting the film speed downward and using
compensating development ("N-4" in my example, or thereabouts).  In other
words, I wouldn't know how to get a negative with enough info to scan
without first getting all the info on the neg.  Normal exposure or
development would get me a bullet-proof neg with no high detail.  Help.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Gulstene" <kevin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Scanning and Zone Sys Development.


> Hi Ken,
>
> Let's take your high contrast scene.  Lets assume that 14 stops of
> scene brightness are mapped to a a film density range of .05 to 1.8
> with the zone system compensations.  When you scan that piece of film
> and apply the set points you will then map a density of .05 to  100%k
> and the density of 1.8 to 0%k.
>
> Take an identical exposure of the same scene with anther piece of film.
>   This film has no development compensation.  The 14 stops of scene
> brightness are then mapped to a density range of .06 to 2.3.  When you
> scan that piece of film and apply the set points you will map the
> density of of .06 to 100%k and a density of 2.3 to 0%k.
>
> It seems to me that as long as the maximum film density is within the
> specs of your scanner it doesn't matter whether you used N or N-4
> development.  You have to make the scene brightness fit between black
> and white one way or another.  You can do it with development or math
> in the scanner.  The result, it seems to me is the same.
>
> Clearly you have to set a film speed appropriately to capture the
> shadow details but I am not convinced that modifying the film
> development is required to capture the highlights when you are scanning
> a negative.
>
> That is what I am trying to come to grips with.
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Ken Carney wrote:
>
> >> From my perspective, the point of the zone system is to get a
> >> negative with
> > reasonable shadow and highlight tones.  If you have a negative with a
> > blown-out highlight, I don't think any scanner will help you.  For
> > example,
> > take a high contrast scene that may take N-4 development (here reduced
> > film
> > speed and compensating development in dilute HC110 or TMax RS).  I
> > have many
> > negs like this that scan well, but I can't picture how I could get a
> > good
> > tonal range with say, normal development.  In fact, the only problems
> > I have
> > had in scanning LF negs with expanded and compressed development have
> > been
> > those developed in pyro (Rollo or PMK), since the stain produces some
> > challenges in getting a good scan.  I would say go for the best neg you
> > would use for a silver print.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >   --Ken Carney
> >     www.kencarney.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kevin Gulstene" <kevin@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:53 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning and Zone Sys Development.
> >
> >
> >> Is zone system development time manipulation irrelevant when scanning
> >> film as opposed to traditional printing?   That is the question I
> >> would
> >> like some help with.
> >>
> >> My understanding is that the zone system is way of ensuring a
> >> constant
> >> density range on the negative independent of the brightness range of
> >> the scene.  This is desirable because it makes most scenes printable
> >> on
> >> a grade 2 paper (leaving the other grades available for artistic
> >> interpretation) and it helps minimize the stuffing around in the
> >> darkroom required to get a good print.
> >>
> >> Since I am not doing wet prints but am scanning the negatives, it
> >> seems
> >> to me that the N- or N+ development dependent on the scene brightness
> >> range is, mostly, irrelevant.  By setting the black point, setting the
> >> white point and scanning the negative am I not mapping the entire
> >> density range of the image to a numerical range of 0-256 or 0-64k?
> >> This mapping would take place independent of the absolute density any
> >> particular zone.
> >>
> >> As a hypothetical example lets assume a scene contains a 8 stop range
> >> of brightness.  Three images are similarly exposed to capture that
> >> brightnesses range. The three images are given different development
> >> times and produce density ranges of  (1.0-0.3=.7), (1.4-0.4=1.0) and
> >> (2.0-.5=1.5).  When the images are scanned each one will produce a
> >> full
> >> histogram from 0 to 255 and a scene brightness at the 6th of the eight
> >> stops will show up at the same place in each of the histograms.
> >>
> >> Soooo, can't I simplify the zone mantra to "expose for the shadows and
> >> let the highlights fall where they may with normal development".
> >> Also,
> >>   wouldn't it be better to generally use N+1 development times so that
> >> the numbers from the raw scan occupied more of the scanner's range?
> >>
> >> Thanks for your help
> >>
> >>
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