Digital BW, The Print

Ken,

It seemed counterintuitive to me as well.  But here is a more 
traditional way to look at it.  when you make the exposure the image is 
on the film.  There is no other opportunity to capture more 
information.  The only thing that you can affect now is how dense the 
highlights are made.  The highlight detail _is_ there.  If you use N-4 
development you bring the highlight density down to a range where it 
can be printed traditionally.

As I said there are going to be extreme cases where this is not true.  
Maybe N-4 (which I have never done) is that extreme.  The 
film/developer combination you use will also make a big difference.  
You can create situations where highlight detail is lost because the 
film just won't get any more dense.  If you are doing N-4 development 
you may have those circumstances.

I have one TMAX negative of my old house in Chicago.  It was taken in 
bright sunlight, snow on the ground and shadows in the front 
porch/garden.  Vuescan tells me (and I don't know how accurate it is) 
that the density range is from (~.6 to ~3.2).  Using vuescan and my 
normal scanning workflow I get detail in the snow drifts and on the 
porch.  Mind you it looks pretty flat cramming all those zones in.

So, I think, it comes down to where do you want to do the work.  In 
managing the density range on the negative or finessing the scan and 
adjustments


On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 10:00 AM, Ken Carney wrote:

> Kevin: I can very quickly run out of knowledge about scanning (or 
> exactly
> how electricity works, for that matter).  I may well be missing the 
> point,
> but here is where I'm stuck.  Let's suppose I have a common 
> high-contrast
> scene, say a long 10-15 minute exposure and the meter says, e.g., that 
> Zone
> 8 is placed four stops above where I need it.  I don't know any way to
> capture that image without adjusting the film speed downward and using
> compensating development ("N-4" in my example, or thereabouts).  In 
> other
> words, I wouldn't know how to get a negative with enough info to scan
> without first getting all the info on the neg.  Normal exposure or
> development would get me a bullet-proof neg with no high detail.  Help.
>
> Regards,
>
>   --Ken Carney
>     www.kencarney.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Gulstene" <kevin@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Scanning and Zone Sys Development.
>
>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> Let's take your high contrast scene.  Lets assume that 14 stops of
>> scene brightness are mapped to a a film density range of .05 to 1.8
>> with the zone system compensations.  When you scan that piece of film
>> and apply the set points you will then map a density of .05 to  100%k
>> and the density of 1.8 to 0%k.
>>
>> Take an identical exposure of the same scene with anther piece of 
>> film.
>>   This film has no development compensation.  The 14 stops of scene
>> brightness are then mapped to a density range of .06 to 2.3.  When you
>> scan that piece of film and apply the set points you will map the
>> density of of .06 to 100%k and a density of 2.3 to 0%k.
>>
>> It seems to me that as long as the maximum film density is within the
>> specs of your scanner it doesn't matter whether you used N or N-4
>> development.  You have to make the scene brightness fit between black
>> and white one way or another.  You can do it with development or math
>> in the scanner.  The result, it seems to me is the same.
>>
>> Clearly you have to set a film speed appropriately to capture the
>> shadow details but I am not convinced that modifying the film
>> development is required to capture the highlights when you are 
>> scanning
>> a negative.
>>
>> That is what I am trying to come to grips with.
>>
>> Thanks for your help
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Ken Carney wrote:
>>
>>>> From my perspective, the point of the zone system is to get a
>>>> negative with
>>> reasonable shadow and highlight tones.  If you have a negative with a
>>> blown-out highlight, I don't think any scanner will help you.  For
>>> example,
>>> take a high contrast scene that may take N-4 development (here 
>>> reduced
>>> film
>>> speed and compensating development in dilute HC110 or TMax RS).  I
>>> have many
>>> negs like this that scan well, but I can't picture how I could get a
>>> good
>>> tonal range with say, normal development.  In fact, the only problems
>>> I have
>>> had in scanning LF negs with expanded and compressed development have
>>> been
>>> those developed in pyro (Rollo or PMK), since the stain produces some
>>> challenges in getting a good scan.  I would say go for the best neg 
>>> you
>>> would use for a silver print.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>   --Ken Carney
>>>     www.kencarney.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kevin Gulstene" <kevin@...>
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:53 PM
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning and Zone Sys Development.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Is zone system development time manipulation irrelevant when 
>>>> scanning
>>>> film as opposed to traditional printing?   That is the question I
>>>> would
>>>> like some help with.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding is that the zone system is way of ensuring a
>>>> constant
>>>> density range on the negative independent of the brightness range of
>>>> the scene.  This is desirable because it makes most scenes printable
>>>> on
>>>> a grade 2 paper (leaving the other grades available for artistic
>>>> interpretation) and it helps minimize the stuffing around in the
>>>> darkroom required to get a good print.
>>>>
>>>> Since I am not doing wet prints but am scanning the negatives, it
>>>> seems
>>>> to me that the N- or N+ development dependent on the scene 
>>>> brightness
>>>> range is, mostly, irrelevant.  By setting the black point, setting 
>>>> the
>>>> white point and scanning the negative am I not mapping the entire
>>>> density range of the image to a numerical range of 0-256 or 0-64k?
>>>> This mapping would take place independent of the absolute density 
>>>> any
>>>> particular zone.
>>>>
>>>> As a hypothetical example lets assume a scene contains a 8 stop 
>>>> range
>>>> of brightness.  Three images are similarly exposed to capture that
>>>> brightnesses range. The three images are given different development
>>>> times and produce density ranges of  (1.0-0.3=.7), (1.4-0.4=1.0) and
>>>> (2.0-.5=1.5).  When the images are scanned each one will produce a
>>>> full
>>>> histogram from 0 to 255 and a scene brightness at the 6th of the 
>>>> eight
>>>> stops will show up at the same place in each of the histograms.
>>>>
>>>> Soooo, can't I simplify the zone mantra to "expose for the shadows 
>>>> and
>>>> let the highlights fall where they may with normal development".
>>>> Also,
>>>>   wouldn't it be better to generally use N+1 development times so 
>>>> that
>>>> the numbers from the raw scan occupied more of the scanner's range?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your help
>>>>
>>>>
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