Digital BW, The Print

Tyler,

Normally I agree with your posts 100%, but feel that you are pointing 
in the wrong direction here. I think Jon Cone is/was innovative, and 
has helped to jump start this technology, but many of his claims and 
comparisions aren't exactly true either. My two cents mixed in with 
yours below:

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
> mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >snip...
> Hopefully ConeTech will have 
> > resolved the clogging issues with the new ink.
> >snip...
> On the other hand Piezo has all 
> > these clogging problems that get to be a major source of
> frustration 
> > plus the "Hayes syndrome" and the yellow or olive-green cast 
> > metamerism that some people see under artificial light.
> 
> Actually, I doubt Conetech has any clogging issue to resolve at 
all. 

I am glad that, as you say, there are those that can use Cone Inks 
with little or no problems, but feel that you are perhaps in the 
minority, not the majority as you say. Jon Cone himself says that you 
need a technically perfect printer to optimize his products. These 
things (printers) are mass produced with an acceptable tolerance, and 
his definition of perfect requires tolerances that no mass produced 
product can meet.

Cone has always had problems with his inks. Look at the mess with the 
Color Piezo currently, and the problems aren't strictly related to 
clogging. B/W Piezo has a long history of clogging, forming crystal 
type deposits, and creating sludge in printheads. The vast majority 
of third party inks (MIS, Generations, etc...) do not exhibit these 
problems, and in fact, most of the printers that Jon likes to site as 
the "problem" when using his products work perfectly with these other 
third party inks (and CIS systems) as well as the stock Epson inks.

> There are countless users with no problem, myself and the local 
users 
> I have contact with have never had a clog. Obviously there are 
those 
> that have had very frustrating problems, yourself and Steadman for 
> example. But almost every third party ink has had users with
> problems, 
> these printers are designed for Epson inks, as soon as we put 
someone 
> elses ink in we have the possibility of glitches. 

This is true, but those inks that exhibit problems, typically aren't 
designed as an Epson ink replacement (such as Piezo), they are 
usually a derivative of another ink that wasn't initially designed to 
work with the Epson printers. Again, MIS and Generations are perfect 
examples of those that were designed specifically for the Epson 
printers. I have yet to hear of a clog that couldn't be undone with 
those inks, but can point you at many posts of those that even went 
as far as to disassemble their printers or other extreme measures and 
still couldn't clear the clog when using Piezo inks.

>All of these 
> problems seem to be with CIS users after considerable use, you now 
> have the added complication of another 3rd party involved. A non
> Epson 
> contraption is delivering a non Epson ink. 

Here is where I take a big issue with your statement. I have been 
using the CIS systems for well over a year now in a wide variety of 
printers (1200, 1160, 1270, 2000P), and I have never had a problem 
related to the CIS. You will note that even Cone himself sells these 
systems (although he does blame them for the 1270, 1280, and 2000P 
problems with the Color Piezo - talk about a contradiction, he 
himself can't even get those inks to work with carts, but blames the 
CIS?!).

>Any cartridge users 
> reporting any of these seemimgly unresolvable problems?

Yes, go read the Color Piezo board. There are cart users that are 
experiencing clogs from hell and the now famous misting problem that 
Jon swears up and down only occurs with the CIS. There are also those 
using the Piezo B/W carts that report clogs, crystal deposits, etc...

> The sudden green shift also seems associated with CIS users 
> specifically. The problems seems very real, but most of the 
> disscussion seems to revolve around whether or not it qualifies as 
a 
> "syndrome", and who gets it named after them.
> Cone has acknowledged the problem, and has a chemist working on it.

If the problem is only with the CIS as you state, why would he need a 
chemist to fix it? Better yet, why would he need a chemist at all 
since he "developed" these inks? They are a derivative of another 
brand (that was not designed to be an Epson ink replacement) that are 
manufactured for him by that company, plain and simple. There are 
truly only a few companies that manufacture all of the inks made for 
inkjet printers. The specialty inks are made from those.

> In 
> the meantime, if I were a desktop/CIS user commited to Piezo and 
the 
> problem began, I'd flush out my printer and start filling 
cartridges 
> myself until a solution is known.

This is exactly how the CIS works, it recharges the cart as it 
empties, how would refilling by hand be any different? Actually hand 
refilling is worse since it introduces much larger quantities of air 
into the cartridge, which as we all know can and does lead to even 
more problems. 

You may actually be onto something with this, but it isn't the fault 
of the CIS. The inks that are derivatives, typically rely on vast 
amounts of alcohol and/or ammonia to make them work in Epson 
printers. Since a cart is sealed until used, it prevents the 
evaporation from happening. The inks in bulk however do need to 
breathe to work in a CIS system and thus will allow these items to 
evaporate over time. This is not the fault of the CIS, just a poorly 
designed ink.

> Regarding metamerism, both inks have it. It's just a subjective
> matter 
> of which looks the least unpleasant to you. I have never seen a 
Piezo 
> print with a hint of green, personal differences about print hue 
are 
> unresolvable. People need to be looking at prints to help with 
these 
> decisions.

Very true!

> If you are a MIS/CIS user with no problems, are happy with the 
> workflow and print color, then you're in fat city. When it comes to 
> advising a new user, I think it's important to point out that the
> vast  
> silent majority of Piezo users are problem free as well.

Tyler, how do you know that the vast majority are problem free? Has 
anyone actually taken a poll of ALL the Piezo users? I know they say 
that those that are having problems complain the loudest, but silence 
doesn't lead to a lack of problems. Some people just don't have the 
time to complain and need to cut their losses and move on, or are 
seeing their problems expressed by others and figure they do not need 
to do so also. Also look at all of the Piezo users that are on this 
list looking for alternatives. I doubt they would be so interested in 
the MIS VM inks as an example if they were truly happy with Piezo.

> I think you should work backwards from your budget and desired 
print 
> look when deciding. There are many happy users of both.
> 
> > With the MIS there appear to be none of the mechanical issues but
> the 
> > current workflows are not as well developed and you may have to
> spend 
> > more time working with your images and/or the curves to refine 
your 
> > final prints. This is an evolving situation and the gap will 
narrow 
> > with time.
> 
> I personally think that's a ways off.

Why? Many people are making this a collective effort and aren't 
trying to profit from it in the process. This will typically progress 
something along at a more rapid pace than those that are limited in 
their resources and experiences. Look at the rapid pace that curves 
are being generated for the MIS inks that have only been out for a 
few months now.

> 
> > Actual use of the workflows is not as user friendly as 
> > Piezo but what you have to do is rather trivial.
> 
> Really? I have yet to see a report of it being absolutely nailed, 
and 
> perfectly reproducing any number of difficult files, including 
> outstanding dithering. We have more than one report here of 7000
> users 
> bagging it, these users tend to be pros with high technical 
> expectations. 

Didn't this user also have the 7000 for only a few weeks? Also, does 
the Piezo 7000 use dithering? The desktop versions don't (there 
Steadman, that is one of the clues you were looking for), which leads 
to the banding, window screening, etc... of those "less than perfect 
printers" that we hear so much about.

> There are desktop users thrilled with prints I would 
> find unacceptable, more power to them since they are probably
> printing 
> and not tinkering, why should they pay more if they are happy? I 
> wouldn't minimize the tinker factor, the gap you mention above is 
> about equal to the price gap.
> Tyler

Bottom line Tyler, is that no one system is perfect. You may be right 
about the "tinker factor", but if Piezo leads to mechanical problems 
right off the bat or in the very near future, that "tinker factor" 
for fixing the Piezo problems (clogs, sludge, having to replace an 
otherwise perfectly good printer, etc...) may prove to be more of a 
problem than the "tinker factor" for these other alternatives.

The perfect setup would be the use of a quality third party ink that 
was designed for the Epson, along with a CIS for economy and ease of 
use, using those portions of the Cone software that control the tone 
and allow for accurate previews all tied into the Epson driver for 
dithering and ink control. Are you paying attention Steadman? :-)

I am not advocating that one sytem is better than the other at this 
point, but do believe that what you were trying to do was balance out 
the conversation so to speak, but then took it a little too far in 
the other direction (even bringing in another third party product).
I too am probably guilty of this in my replies as stated above, and 
apologize in advance.

Terry