Digital BW, The Print

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
> mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >snip...
> Hopefully ConeTech will have 
> > resolved the clogging issues with the new ink.
> >snip...
> On the other hand Piezo has all 
> > these clogging problems that get to be a major source of
> frustration 
> > plus the "Hayes syndrome" and the yellow or olive-green cast 
> > metamerism that some people see under artificial light.
> 
> Actually, I doubt Conetech has any clogging issue to resolve at 
all. 

Tyler,

I can't agree with you on that one. If you go to the Piezo list and 
run a search on "clogging" I honestly don't see how you can say that 
clogging is not an issue for ConeTech. It has got to be the most 
common problem that people ask for help on.

> There are countless users with no problem, myself and the local 
users 
> I have contact with have never had a clog. Obviously there are 
those 
> that have had very frustrating problems, yourself and Steadman for 
> example.

My impression is that a very large number of people have clogging 
problems with Piezo, mostly users of the 1160 and the 1200 Epson's. 
The 3000's do not seem to suffer from clogging problems. This may 
have something to do with the 3000's nozzle design. I don't know.

> But almost every third party ink has had users with
> problems, 

I am pretty new to all this but I have not heard of any clogging 
issues with any ink set other than Piezo so far. 

> these printers are designed for Epson inks, as soon as we put 
someone 
> elses ink in we have the possibility of glitches.

Yes but all the manufacturers of these non-Epson inks have claimed 
that they will not be a problem.

> All of these 
> problems seem to be with CIS users after considerable use, you now 
> have the added complication of another 3rd party involved. A non
> Epson 
> contraption is delivering a non Epson ink. Any cartridge users 
> reporting any of these seemimgly unresolvable problems?

My clogging problems with my 1200 started from day one with Piezo 
carts. Clogging was much worse with cartridges then with the CIS. 
Every time I changed cartridges it took 24 to 48 hours to get it back 
up. With the CIS I would get some long periods without any problems 
and then come home one night planning to print and instead spend it 
trying to get a good nozzle check and waiting overnight for it to 
clear. If this is not a common problem for Piezo I am glad to hear 
it. As I said in my last post I intend to give Piezo another try on a 
1280 and hope that my past problems were just related to this 
particular 1200.

> The sudden green shift also seems associated with CIS users 
> specifically. The problems seems very real, but most of the 
> disscussion seems to revolve around whether or not it qualifies as 
a 
> "syndrome", and who gets it named after them.
> Cone has acknowledged the problem, and has a chemist working on it.
> In 
> the meantime, if I were a desktop/CIS user commited to Piezo and 
the 
> problem began, I'd flush out my printer and start filling 
cartridges 
> myself until a solution is known.

I really don't know that there would be any benefit to running 
cartridges vs. CIS in terms of clogging. They both supply ink to the 
print head in exactly the same manner. They are simply reservoirs for 
ink that the head draws from. I do not see any difference between 
having the cartridges continuously and automatically refilled vs. 
hand refilling them. The connection between the "Hayes syndrome" and 
the CIS may simply be one of print volume. Anyone making prints in 
large numbers is going to be using a CIS and the syndrome only shows 
up after making lots of prints. 

> Regarding metamerism, both inks have it. It's just a subjective
> matter 
> of which looks the least unpleasant to you. I have never seen a 
Piezo 
> print with a hint of green, personal differences about print hue 
are 
> unresolvable. People need to be looking at prints to help with 
these 
> decisions.

That is the big problem in making a recommendation. There is no way 
to sit these people down and show them a bunch of prints using the 
different ink sets. Taste in print color tone is very personal and 
very sensitive to ink and paper combinations.

> If you are a MIS/CIS user with no problems, are happy with the 
> workflow and print color, then you're in fat city. When it comes to 
> advising a new user, I think it's important to point out that the
> vast  
> silent majority of Piezo users are problem free as well.

I wish they were not so silent, so I had a better feel for this.  

> I think you should work backwards from your budget and desired 
print 
> look when deciding. There are many happy users of both.

The budget may be the most limiting factor for some but I hate to see 
people make creative decisions based on this alone. Piezo shouldn't 
get ruled out because of the cost. If Piezo gives you the results you 
want it is well worth it.

> 
> > With the MIS there appear to be none of the mechanical issues but
> the 
> > current workflows are not as well developed and you may have to
> spend 
> > more time working with your images and/or the curves to refine 
your 
> > final prints. This is an evolving situation and the gap will 
narrow 
> > with time.
> 
> I personally think that's a ways off.

Well, I have seen a lot of improvement since I started with the MIS 
MV a few weeks ago so I remain hopeful. At the moment it gives me a 
more satisfying result and is worth extra effort.

> 
> > Actual use of the workflows is not as user friendly as 
> > Piezo but what you have to do is rather trivial.
> 
> Really? I have yet to see a report of it being absolutely nailed, 
and 
> perfectly reproducing any number of difficult files, including 
> outstanding dithering. We have more than one report here of 7000
> users 
> bagging it, these users tend to be pros with high technical 
> expectations. There are desktop users thrilled with prints I would 
> find unacceptable, more power to them since they are probably
> printing 
> and not tinkering, why should they pay more if they are happy? I 
> wouldn't minimize the tinker factor, the gap you mention above is 
> about equal to the price gap.

Perhaps I was not clear. Specifically I was speaking of the printing 
workflow. I don't see that a workflow of Image>Mode>RGB followed by 
Image>Adjust>Curves>Load>select curve>OK followed by Print>Print 
Properties>make the proper settings and then print is that much 
harder than the Piezo Export>Piezography>etc. 

My impression is that the main reasons some of 7000 users gave up on 
the MIS inks was a Dmax problem (that does not seem to exist with any 
of the other printers) and a lack of available curves. Both valid 
reasons. MIS is not as easy as Piezo unless you already have the 
curve or curves you need. I hope someone will take the time to sort 
out the MIS issues on the 7000 at some point.

I know you don't mean to sound this way, but you come across as 
having a low opinion of all the people out there who are working to 
make quality prints on desktop printers. You imply that only pros 
with the expensive equipment have enough discerning taste to produce 
fine prints and that their opinions carry more weight than others. I 
don't buy that and I don't think you do either. Besides you could 
turn around and make the same argument about all the happy desktop 
Piezo users!

I think the price of Piezo more than offsets the tinker gap. But you 
have to like the end result. You told me yourself that you have to 
like the ink. Not everyone is going to like the color of Piezo. 

As I said, I am uncertain at this point as to what to recommend to 
newcomers (the vast majority of them will be desktop users) between 
Piezo and MIS solutions as a starting place. I see drawbacks to both 
and don't feel comfortable strongly saying, "Definitely go buy brand 
X. You won't be sorry!" 

Martin