Digital BW, The Print

Thanks for the input, Tom.  Although I've been concerned about 
attaining DMax comparable to what I've gotten out of wet darkroom 
work, I'm nonetheless very open minded about digital B&W being a new 
medium with new possibilities.  In fact, I 'rediscovered' B&W while 
experimenting with color images in PS.  One day, for the hell of it, 
I converted some images to B&W and used adjustment layers to alter 
the colors of the original image and thus alter the tonality of the 
B&W derivation.  This was the beginning of my realization of what you 
spoke of, that we now have access to means of manipulating tonalities 
that are more extensive than we ever dreamed would be possible.  It's 
all pretty exciting.  Realistically, there really isn't much 
limitation at all in attaining almost any result you visualize.  It's 
kind of ironic.  I became fluent in PS because it was a means of 
accomplishing dramatic effects in color, yet it ultimately led me 
back to B&W with the promise of allowing me to accomplish subtle 
manipulations I had never thought possible.

Seems like it all will be great fun.

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Mike  -
>  
> From the various 'specs' it appears that the 'best' ink/paper DMax 
today is not as dense as the best silver/developer DMax.  It seems to 
me, however, that this comparison is not really valid except in a 
statistical sense.  From a personal point of view, I am beginning to 
realize that we really are working in a different medium.  It's still 
photography I guess, if the initial image is achieved with the help 
of a lens of some type.  Today, we still strive to make our output 
look like traditional silver prints.  In the not to distant future we 
will have the technology to achieve that.  But, the digital 
processes, even when you begin with a 'photographic' image, has much 
more potential for creativity than any previous photographic 
process.  It seems to me that we are not involved in evolution, but 
revolution.
>  
> But, this is a revolution mostly in the technical sense.  
The 'traditional' b&w images won't cease to have value.  The great 
b&w images were great because they were art.  The new great b&w 
images will be great for the same reason, not because of the process 
with which they are done.  I believe, however, that we will begin to 
see more and more b&w art images that go where b&w has not been able 
to go before.  The digital processes allow us to control tonality in 
ways that we never dreamed possible. 
>  
> Also, through Paul's efforts (and a few others) the technology to 
achieve truly creative b&w imagery will be available to many more 
people than the darkroom of yesteryear could hold.   This is going to 
make for a great creative dialog. 
>  
> This is an exciting time for anyone with an interest in creative 
imagery.  Look around at your local galleries and club groups.  
You'll already see some great new images 
>  
> So, jump in.  This is really great fun.
>  
> Tom Baker
>  
>  
> Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Mike,
> 
> Welcome.
> 
> >...
> >... upcoming Epson 4000, .. I've read that it's supposed
> >to acheive a DMax of 2.1 on glossy media and
> >1.69 on matte media.  ...
> 
> That's about normal for most of the more expensive, modern Epson 
printers.
> A 0.1 dmax difference is well within what you could get from a 
single
> printer from time to time.  In comparing dmax's the densitometers, 
paper
> selection and batch, shade of the paper under the paper you're 
reading all
> would affect the readings.  As such, comparisons with what others 
have
> measured might be misleading unless all the variables are held 
constant.
> 
> I think, realistically, the big differences are between matte and 
RC/glossy
> papers, and between the pure pigment and the hybrid pigment-dye 
inks.  RC
> papers get a better dmax.  More dye means higher dmax -- and more 
fading and
> warm shifting.
> 
> The Epson Matte black is about as deep a pure pigment matte black 
as there
> is, with MIS Eboni and PiezoTone Museum right there with it.  
(Actually,
> about 0.1 - 0.2 behind on average, but the cooler tone of the 
Eboni/museum
> make them look darker, in my opinion.)  They are all very 
lightfast.  The
> hybrid blacks are not in the same league if stability matters to 
you, but
> the dmax's can be impressive.
> 
> In comparing the visual differences between various papers, I think 
the
> densitometer readings can be misleading.  The glossy papers give 
very high
> dmax readings, but the reflections in the real world often 
eliminate this
> advantage.  A 1.65 matte inkjet print can look better than a 2+ 
glossy
> pigmented print.  Under glass, if you are at 1.6 or above with the 
inkjet, I
> doubt anyone is going to see any difference between the good silver 
print
> and a matte inkjet print.  I hang them together and they look very 
similar.
> Of course, if you use dye on an RC paper you're really looking at a
> potentially huge dmax, but as the dmax gets higher, the eye's 
ability to
> distinguish those shades decreases.  Above 2.0 with an RC paper or 
1.65 with
> a matte paper and the visual differences are not that great, in my 
opinion.
> 
> I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how good the matte papers 
look
> with today's good pure pigment black.  It's a different look when 
not under
> glass, but as an old silver printer, I've actually come to prefer 
the matte
> look.  I really dislike the RC glossy look, and the semi-gloss or 
pearl
> papers just don't make it either, in my view.  All the RC papers 
I've tried
> have "bronzing" or other surface defects that are not very 
appealing.
> 
> Digital B&W is great fun and the technology is definitely ready for 
prime
> time.  It will, of course, get better, but where we're at now is 
very
> satisfying even for former darkroom printers.
> 
> Enjoy your journey.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]