Digital BW, The Print

Julian:  I always enjoy your posts - interesting, immediate, provocative.  
Are you proposing a deconstructed view or definition of art - ie."meaning in 
the work"; "remains relevant outside its socio-historical period."???  I 
propose that some art, by intention, does not last for even more than a 
short period, ie, draping buildings/or the environment.  Some art lasts only 
a limited period, ie. photography/cinema.  Even art lasting centuries 
ultimately crumbles, is lost, or otherwise disappears.  Also, the future is 
difficult and for the present impossible to predict pending additional 
breakthrough in Physics.  Who knows if Beethoven will be more remembered 
than Phillip Glass, Benjamin Britten, or someone currently unknown in a 
hundred years + from now.  I empathize with your concerns about hypocrisy in 
the acceptance of art in various places. A frontal male nude is great art in 
institutional display in Florence; but, may well be considered an 
outrage/unacceptable in a U.S. business foyer or "public" place.  It appears 
"art" has something to do with context as well as the character/nature of 
the viewer.  On another "note" abstract visual art has achieved limited 
public acceptance; but, some abstract auditory art has gained, for now, 
enormous public acceptance, ie. rock $ roll.  (I'm relatively sure Andy 
Wharhol would have loved to argue the latter reference.) Buy the way, why 
does Miles Davis get most of the credit for inventing fusion, when Jimi 
Hendrix anticipated and performed fusion before Bitches Brew; and is Tristan 
und Isolde truely the departure point for all of 20th C classical music?  
I'd better stop as this is becoming free/loose association(s).       
Regards, SCB


From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ART-what is it?
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:22:02 +0200

Yeah you are dead right, wasn't really expressing myself too well - if you
follow my argument you end up with a dumbing down process which i loathe. I
stick with my claim though that the meaning of the work has to be 'in' the
work - the viewer may have to work hard (a good thing) or gain new skills or
insights, or vocabulary, but what the work is about has to be somewhere in
the text of the object. I'm a bit worried that I'm coming across as a
populist which I'm not at all. Art should challenge, be difficult, make us
rethink our preconceptions, learn new visual or aural vocabularies etc etc.
The kind of stuff that i was knocking in the yoko ono exhibit, like much
Cage, is important historically. But for me, it stays in its historical
moment and doesn't reach out across time. It has travelled badly. One of my
personal definitions I suppose is that art remains relevent outside of it's
socio-historic period. Beethoven, Picasso, Atget, Stieglitz, etc all have a
message today precisely because the content of the work is in the object.
Just to embarrass myself further, in 1981 I gave a recital which included
Berg, Brahms, Tippett, and a piece which consisted of passing a huge length
of rope around the audience into which was woven  bells, rattles -
noisemakers. The piece was the sounds generated by the audience. Now I still
think that at the time it was valid - a way of making the audience question
their passivity, to hopefully promote the idea that going to a concert is an
active experience - but that kind of piece stays in that period, it hasn't
travelled, now the response would be 'oh, we're doing this passe audience
involvement stuff'. I went on to do a whole recital based on giving the
audience cards with instructions on. Great fun, and again ok for the time,
but there was nothing for the audience to engage with.
On a slightly different note i've always been bemused by the fact that
people accept abstract art in publick places, but play the musical quivalent
and, is there trouble!

Julian


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sanford Barnes" <sanfordcbarnes@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ART-what is it?


 > JT:  If one doesn't "get it" or understand, then the art may have failed
to
 > communicate to that individual; however, it does not automatically
translate
 > that the art is not good or not understandable to others.  Personal
opinion
 > isn't worth much by itself.  SCB
 >
 >
 > From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
 > Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
 > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ART-what is it?
 > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:47:59 +0200
 >
 > Mike - I half agree with you!
 >
 > My background is in music - to me Schoenberg is standard repetoire and I
can
 > trace how things happen as they emerge . I realised in my last post I was
 > coming off as a bit restrictive, but I firmly believe that if it is not
'in'
 > the work, then it is not part of the work. All art IMO is a balance
between
 > a whole load o f factors, but I think there is a fundamental balance
between
 > concept and product. If I can't, as a skilled reader, 'see' in the work
the
 > concept, then it has failed and the concept stands 'in place of' the work
as
 > the defining force.
 > I saw some of the kindof instruction-type work you described at the yoko
ono
 > show, and it is poor stuff IMO. Now this is a personal view, and I would
 > take away anyone's right to make art in whatever way they choose, but 
when
 > this is placed in hierarchies, as 'better/best' then it produces problems
 > IMO. I don't think for e.g. that Hirst's work is that shocking or new, 
but
 > he has become a major media presence because he is writable about.
 >
 > Anyway, thanks for the dicsussion!
 >
 > Julian
 >
 >
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: <mh@...>
 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
 > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 1:36 PM
 > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ART-what is it?
 >
 >
 >  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" <
 >  > julianthomas@t...> wrote:
 >  > > Sad isn't it. Art dealers support stuff they can sell, critics write
 > about
 >  > > things they can write about. None of this has anything to do with 
the
 > work,
 >  > > but with the concept behind the work. Arts education (and I used to
be
 > in
 >  > > it) ,for a whole load of reasons that has very little to do with
 > teachers,
 >  > > is doing a poor job of educating people about art - and very often
 > people
 >  > > need the help of a dealer to interpret a 'concept'. And there is no
 > causal
 >  > > link between those who have money to buy art as having the skills to
 > make a
 >  > > judgement.
 >  > >
 >  > > Julian
 >  >
 >  > I halfway don't agree with you. When talking about dealers, you need 
to
 >  > differentiate between the high end and the low end. Low end dealers,
 >  > the kind that are in every city, deal in stuff that they can sell,
 >  > usually a lot of Terry Redlin type paintings. High end dealers don't
 >  > care about whether the art will look good over a couch because, as we
 >  > have all seen, they can sell about anything (my old bosses had a
 >  > sculpture made out of manure in our studio) Nothing has changed in the
 >  > low end art world for a long time, and you won't really come away with
 >  > much other then a pretty picture (probably of something cute)  High 
end
 >  > art is always changing, usually much more interesting and will make 
you
 >  > think, but not always something you want in your house.
 >  >
 >  > Critics mostly go along with the high end dealers, so they are not
 >  > really hurting or helping things a lot of the time. The time when
 >  > things become skewed is when a famous person (like a hollywood type)
 >  > buys something and then all the other famous/rich people have to buy
 >  > the same thing. We can only hope that there was someone knowledgeable
 >  > in the field of art that influenced the original guy on his/her
 >  > purchase.
 >  >
 >  > Art is a very complex thing, most people think that the upper echelon
 >  > is pretty strange because they have no basis to understand nor the
 >  > patience or determination to follow up. I can describe this with
 >  > another one of my interests: volleyball. Most people can take or leave
 >  > volleyball. Some play it, but they prefer a soft $10 ball and play 
with
 >  > a standard rotation. But once you get into it, you learn that the play
 >  > at the higher end is a completely different game. You play with a $60
 >  > ball that is made with different materials in a different way; there
 >  > are positions, each with a different responsibility, and you learn
 >  > lineups, hits, and rules that you never knew existed before. Some of 
it
 >  > is based on history and tradition, some of it is based on new rules
 >  > that everyone likes to complain and argue about. Most people play 
maybe
 >  > once or twice a year in someone's backyard or at the beach, I play
 >  > twice a week, year-round, now.  Is good art something that should
 >  > require such a commitment? maybe not, but as the world gets older, and
 >  > people have more time on their hands, and doing something original
 >  > becomes more difficult, things naturally become intricate and
 >  > complicated.
 >  >
 >  >
 >  > When you say this; "None of this has anything to do with the work,
 >  > > but with the concept behind the work"
 >  > you must remember that in a lot of those cases, the concept is the 
work
 >  > and the concept is what the buyer is buying. You can go to some
 >  > galleries and buy a piece in an edition and what you get are 
directions
 >  > on how the create the piece yourself and a certificate that says you
 >  > own number such and such out of such and such. Thankfully that is a
 >  > moment in art history and I don't believe artists today are able to 
get
 >  > away with such things. But if you come up with another twist,
 >  > complexity, or concept that adds something new, you could probably 
sell
 >  > an idea too.
 >  >
 >  > This is how art varies from other fields. An artist with very little
 >  > experience/knowledge of the art world, can create great art.  Studying
 >  > art will help you recognize and understand other people's work. It 
will
 >  > help you see greatness, and your own work will improve, but studying
 >  > alone will not make your work great. (that is why so many artists are
 >  > frustrated)
 >  >
 >  > -mikeH
 >  > toomanyartists.com
 >  >
 >  > ps
 >  > The thing that is sad is not the high end art world, it is the low 
end/
 >  > popular art world and the populations lack of interest in anything 
more
 >  > than a nature scene. Trendy-ness is something the art snobs love to
 >  > hate, but in actuality is one of the only things that help bring 
better
 >  > art to the masses. Offensive or outrageous pieces can do the same 
thing
 >  > because of the press and attention they receive (see Piss Christ).
 >  >
 >  >
 >  >
 >  >
 >  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
 > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
 >  >
 >  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
 >  >
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 >
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 > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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 > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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