----- Original Message -----
From: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 7:19 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Digest Number 2422
There are 7 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. RE: Scanning Black & White Negatives
From: "Bill Cheadle" <wpcheadle@...>
2. RE: John V ?
From: "chris" <cjones@...>
3. Re: Scanning Black & White Negatives
From: "btvarner" <btvarner@...>
4. RE: Scanning Black & White Negatives
From: "btvarner" <btvarner@...>
5. Re: Scanning Black & White Negatives
From: "btvarner" <btvarner@...>
6. Re: QuadToneRIP for Windows - Release 3
From: johnlill2@...
7. RE: RE: Scanning Black & White Negatives
From: "Bill Cheadle" <wpcheadle@...>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 06:40:20 -0400
From: "Bill Cheadle" <wpcheadle@...>
Subject: RE: Scanning Black & White Negatives
Hello Bruce,
I experienced a lot of inconsistency in scanning b&w negatives until I
adopted a workflow I'd read about from a couple of different sources - David
Brooks is one I recall.
I use a film scanner - Minolta Multi Pro II - but the basic technique will
be the same for your flatbed. basically, I deliberately scan the negative in
as a color positive. I scan at the highest in to out resolution in 16 bit
mode and usually set the number of passes between 8 and 16 depending upon
the amount of noise I expect, then get and reset it / rescan it until I'm
happy with it.
Once it's in Photoshop, I'll make level and curve adjustments in reverse -
it helps if you have a contact or small print from the lab. Once it looks
like you have a good tonal range go to Image>Adjustments>Invert and you
should have a fairly decent b&w image to tweak from there.
This is far from an automatic process and does require some getting used to
working "inside out". But it has resulted in dramatically improved scans for
me.
Mr. Brook's article may still be on the Shutterbug site. If so I recommend
giving it a read.
-----Original Message-----
From: btvarner [mailto:btvarner@...]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 11:32 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning Black & White Negatives
I am new to this newsgroup & I hope this topic is correct for the
group.
I have gotten aware from black & white since moving to mainly digital
capture. I am now attempting to re-enter producing black & white
images in the digital darkroom. I am not new to digital, just to
digital b&w.
I currently have an Epson 2450 scanner which works "ok" for medium
format transparencies. When I attempt to scan b&w negative film
however, the results are horrible. Here is my two current questions.
1) How do you get good scans of b&w negative film?
2) When I scan b&w negative film and then open it in Photoshop, the
file is still a negative. It has not been converted to a positive.
Also, the exposure is wayyyyyy off! Always to dark, even though
during the scanning process the exposure looks fine. What am I doing
wrong?
My work flow is:
Epson 2450 scanner
Viewscan 7.6.18 scan software
Photoshop CS
Epson 2000 printer
Quadtone for Windows b&w printing software
By the way, I can print b&w fine with desiderated color images.
Bruce Varner
Kansas City metro area
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:27:07 -0400
From: "chris" <cjones@...>
Subject: RE: John V ?
The new piezography does not require drivers, but unless you have a
colorimeter, you will need the profiles.
Chris Jones
_____
From: Arthur Fink [mailto:arthur@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 4:16 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com;
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] John V ?
At 12:31 AM 8/14/2004, john dean wrote:
>Do you know if it is possible to buy the PIezzotone large format inks
>without signing up
>for their driver kit and profiles? For instance for using with QTR.
Yes ... just go to their web site, and look for replacement inks.
A r t h u r F i n k P h o t o g r a p h y
------------------------------------------------
Ten New Island Avenue 207.766.5722
Peaks Island, Maine 04108 arthur@...
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:33:23 -0000
From: "btvarner" <btvarner@...>
Subject: Re: Scanning Black & White Negatives
Thanks,
By "horrible" I mean that any b&w negative I attempt to scan, when
opened in Photoshop is very very dark. Almost how a negative appears
when you just look at it with no back light. Plus, the file has not
been converted from a negative to a positive. The Photoshop
histogram shows all the data at the very dark end of the scale.
My workflow with Vuescan is EXACTLY as you have described.
I normally always shoot slide film exclusively & can scan & print all
transparencies fine. It is the negative b&w film only that this
happens to. I say this to indicate that the entire workflow is fine
for these types of scans and prints.
It is almost like I am attempting to scan while not using the
transparency setting but that is not the case. The previews in
Vuescan look fine. It is only when I open in Photoshop afterwards
that the problem is noticed.
I am attempting to scan medium & 4x5 negatives.
Bruce
>It would be helpful to know in what way your results are "horrible."
>However, if you can print B&W fine from desaturated (desiderated?)
>color negatives but not from b&w negatives and if your negatives
>appear as negatives when opened in Photoshop, it sounds like one or
>more of your settings in Vuescan may be wrong. What settings are you
>using in the "Device" tab? "Scan Mode" should
>be "transparency," "Media Type" should be B/W Negative, "Bits Per
>Pixel" should be 16 bit gray. Preview Resolution should be something
>very low to speed things along, I use 100 dpi, Resolution should be
>whatever you want, presumably the max that the 2450 is capable of
>with a medium format negative. Then under "Color" tab set your film
>type, if your film isn't there try setting it for T Max 100, set
>your CI (around .55 is a good place to start with a normal
>negative). The three colors are all set to 1, set your black and
>white points based on the preview histogram or as a place to start
>you could just use 0 for black and 1 for white. See what happens.
>If by "Quadtone for Windows" b&w printing software you mean Roy
>Harrington's new QTR then someone else will have to help you with
>that, I haven't yet tried it yet.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "btvarner" <btvarner@...>
>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 11:31 PM
>Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning Black & White Negatives
>I am new to this newsgroup & I hope this topic is correct for the
>group.
>I have gotten aware from black & white since moving to mainly
>digital capture. I am now attempting to re-enter producing black &
>white images in the digital darkroom. I am not new to digital, just
>to digital b&w.
>I currently have an Epson 2450 scanner which works "ok" for medium
>format transparencies. When I attempt to scan b&w negative film
>however, the results are horrible. Here is my two current questions.
>1) How do you get good scans of b&w negative film?
>2) When I scan b&w negative film and then open it in Photoshop, the
>file is still a negative. It has not been converted to a positive.
>Also, the exposure is wayyyyyy off! Always to dark, even though
>during the scanning process the exposure looks fine. What am I
>doing wrong?
>My work flow is:
>Epson 2450 scanner
>Viewscan 7.6.18 scan software
>Photoshop CS
>Epson 2000 printer
>Quadtone for Windows b&w printing software
>By the way, I can print b&w fine with desiderated color images.
>Bruce Varner
>Kansas City metro area
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:48:42 -0000
From: "btvarner" <btvarner@...>
Subject: RE: Scanning Black & White Negatives
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the advise! I am considering getting a dedicated film
scanner. The real thing that is holding be back is that none except
the very (many many thousands of dollars) expensive scanners do not
scan 4x5. That is mainly why I am trying to get at least a decent
scan out of a flatbed for the large format.
I have tried scanning the b&w negative as a color positive as you
suggest & it seems to be no better then any other method. I can live
with the initial scan being either negative or a positive when opened
in Photoshop but the real problem from the standpoint of a good
result is that the scan is bunched up so much at one end of the
histogram that even using levels & curves I end out with a very flat
image when I know the negative is not flat.
what strikes me funny about this is that when I see the scanned
negative in Vuescan it looks perfect, but when it gets opened in
Photoshop it does not seem to be the same scan???
I wonder if I am doing something wrong in the process, but if so why
do all other types of film scans I do come out fine? I don't know.
Bruce
>Hello Bruce,
>I experienced a lot of inconsistency in scanning b&w negatives until
>I adopted a workflow I'd read about from a couple of different
>sources - David Brooks is one I recall.
>I use a film scanner - Minolta Multi Pro II - but the basic
>technique will be the same for your flatbed. basically, I
>deliberately scan the negative in as a color positive. I scan at the
>highest in to out resolution in 16 bit mode and usually set the
>number of passes between 8 and 16 depending upon the amount of noise
>I expect, then get and reset it / rescan it until I'm happy with it.
>Once it's in Photoshop, I'll make level and curve adjustments in
>reverse - it helps if you have a contact or small print from the
>lab. Once it looks like you have a good tonal range go to
>Image>Adjustments>Invert and you should have a fairly decent b&w
>image to tweak from there.
>This is far from an automatic process and does require some getting
>used to working "inside out". But it has resulted in dramatically
>improved scans for me.
>Mr. Brook's article may still be on the Shutterbug site. If so I
>recommend giving it a read.
>I am new to this newsgroup & I hope this topic is correct for the
>group.
>I have gotten aware from black & white since moving to mainly
>digital capture. I am now attempting to re-enter producing black &
>white images in the digital darkroom. I am not new to digital, just
>to digital b&w.
>I currently have an Epson 2450 scanner which works "ok" for medium
>format transparencies. When I attempt to scan b&w negative film
>however, the results are horrible. Here is my two current questions.
>1) How do you get good scans of b&w negative film?
>2) When I scan b&w negative film and then open it in Photoshop, the
>file is still a negative. It has not been converted to a positive.
>Also, the exposure is wayyyyyy off! Always to dark, even though
>during the scanning process the exposure looks fine. What am I
>doing wrong?
>My work flow is:
>Epson 2450 scanner
>Viewscan 7.6.18 scan software
>Photoshop CS
>Epson 2000 printer
>Quadtone for Windows b&w printing software
>By the way, I can print b&w fine with desiderated color images.
>Bruce Varner
>Kansas City metro area
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:59:46 -0000
From: "btvarner" <btvarner@...>
Subject: Re: Scanning Black & White Negatives
Hi John!
I have tried scanning both and it seems to come out the same. No, I
am not using any processing of the negative in the Vuescan software.
I will look for an RGB Mono option. Also, I will try again using the
exact suggestions being provided by you and others.
I know how to use levels and curves but what gets me is that these
b&w scans do not have enough dynamic range in the file once opened in
Photoshop to produce a good image. I know the range was there
because I saw it in the preview in Vuescan + I have produced images
from these same negatives before in a wet darkroom. Weird!!!
Bruce
>It can be an uphill battle getting a decent scan from anything. Are
>you scanning in greyscale or RGB. (try RGB) Also, in my scanning
>software i have the option of using RGB Mono (black and white). It
>gives me a positive RGB bw scan. You might have something similar in
>your software. Without anymore info I don't know what to suggest
>ps: after you invert the image in PS is it then looking to dark or
>is it to dark as a negative. Also what type of b+w film are you
>using, are you using any processing stuff in you scanning software >
(like sharpening or noise and scratch reduction stuff)
>www.35mm357mag.com
>John Aaron
>Modernage Photo Service
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:16:23 -0000
From: johnlill2@...
Subject: Re: QuadToneRIP for Windows - Release 3
Stephen,
Thanks for your work on this. Even though editing Roy's batch files
is not difficult, your GUI makes things real simple. And already on
version 3! We appreciate it!
John L
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen
Billard" <stephen@s...> wrote:
> QTRgui release 0.3 is also now available. This release supports
these new
> printers (and any future ones Roy releases.)
>
> http://www.sbillard.org/Shareware/QTRgui.htm
>
> -Stephen
> www.sbillard.org/Stephen
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@h...]
> > Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 6:30 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] QuadToneRIP for Windows - Release 3
> >
> >
> >
> > Things are moving along.
> > There are now profiles for several more printers:
> >
> > 1270 and 1280 using MIS UT2 inks
> >
> > 7600 and 9600 using Epson UltraChrome inks
> >
> > Plus there is now Custom Page size capability
> > -- you can specify any size paper that will fit in the printer.
> >
> > See the download page for more info.
> >
> > Roy
> > www.harrington.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > --------------------~-->
> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------~->
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or
> > you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership
> > preferences by visiting this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> > messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> > or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be
> > removed from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> > digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic
> > posts may be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group
> > rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and
> > decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group
> > Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL
> > BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE
> > THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT,
> > INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN
> > IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE
> > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED
> > ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO
> > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:28:18 -0400
From: "Bill Cheadle" <wpcheadle@...>
Subject: RE: RE: Scanning Black & White Negatives
I've only tried Vuescan in demo mode once, so I don't really know anything
about it. have you trued the Epson scan utility, or maybe the Lasersoft demo
to see if the results differ?
-----Original Message-----
From: btvarner [mailto:btvarner@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 9:49 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] RE: Scanning Black & White Negatives
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the advise! I am considering getting a dedicated film
scanner. The real thing that is holding be back is that none except
the very (many many thousands of dollars) expensive scanners do not
scan 4x5. That is mainly why I am trying to get at least a decent
scan out of a flatbed for the large format.
I have tried scanning the b&w negative as a color positive as you
suggest & it seems to be no better then any other method. I can live
with the initial scan being either negative or a positive when opened
in Photoshop but the real problem from the standpoint of a good
result is that the scan is bunched up so much at one end of the
histogram that even using levels & curves I end out with a very flat
image when I know the negative is not flat.
what strikes me funny about this is that when I see the scanned
negative in Vuescan it looks perfect, but when it gets opened in
Photoshop it does not seem to be the same scan???
I wonder if I am doing something wrong in the process, but if so why
do all other types of film scans I do come out fine? I don't know.
Bruce
>Hello Bruce,
>I experienced a lot of inconsistency in scanning b&w negatives until
>I adopted a workflow I'd read about from a couple of different
>sources - David Brooks is one I recall.
>I use a film scanner - Minolta Multi Pro II - but the basic
>technique will be the same for your flatbed. basically, I
>deliberately scan the negative in as a color positive. I scan at the
>highest in to out resolution in 16 bit mode and usually set the
>number of passes between 8 and 16 depending upon the amount of noise
>I expect, then get and reset it / rescan it until I'm happy with it.
>Once it's in Photoshop, I'll make level and curve adjustments in
>reverse - it helps if you have a contact or small print from the
>lab. Once it looks like you have a good tonal range go to
>Image>Adjustments>Invert and you should have a fairly decent b&w
>image to tweak from there.
>This is far from an automatic process and does require some getting
>used to working "inside out". But it has resulted in dramatically
>improved scans for me.
>Mr. Brook's article may still be on the Shutterbug site. If so I
>recommend giving it a read.
>I am new to this newsgroup & I hope this topic is correct for the
>group.
>I have gotten aware from black & white since moving to mainly
>digital capture. I am now attempting to re-enter producing black &
>white images in the digital darkroom. I am not new to digital, just
>to digital b&w.
>I currently have an Epson 2450 scanner which works "ok" for medium
>format transparencies. When I attempt to scan b&w negative film
>however, the results are horrible. Here is my two current questions.
>1) How do you get good scans of b&w negative film?
>2) When I scan b&w negative film and then open it in Photoshop, the
>file is still a negative. It has not been converted to a positive.
>Also, the exposure is wayyyyyy off! Always to dark, even though
>during the scanning process the exposure looks fine. What am I
>doing wrong?
>My work flow is:
>Epson 2450 scanner
>Viewscan 7.6.18 scan software
>Photoshop CS
>Epson 2000 printer
>Quadtone for Windows b&w printing software
>By the way, I can print b&w fine with desiderated color images.
>Bruce Varner
>Kansas City metro area
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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Re: [Digital BW] Digest Number 2422
2004-08-14 by Rick Schiller