Hello all, I am finally getting around to trying to install QTR. I went all through Roy's site and the Outbackphoto tutorial that they had on their site. The point I am at right now is that I have downloaded the soft proofing profiles from Roy's and now I can't find the page that details installation of these items. I am running OSX Panther with Photoshop CS, and Epson 2200 with standard inkset (my folder for soft proof reads 2200 QTR UC) on a Mac G4 running a 1.5 ghz G4 processor and 1Gb of ram. The files in the folder look like plugins but read proof on them. Where do these go? Also I am trying to use the bluetooth or my built-in airport stuff to wirelessly print to this printer I guess I need a bluetooth print server or an Airport extreme print server- anyone have any experience with this? (reply personally if you think it is too OT for the list). Thanks very much, Jerry Jerry Hadam jerry@... 208-726-2942 888-540-8053 In Saddletree Cutsom Framing Crazy Horse Square-Ketchum Box 2749 Ketchum, ID 83340 On Oct 16, 2004, at 11:06 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > There are 14 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...> > 2. Re: Film Scanners > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...> > 3. StudioPrint, mono color management etc. was How reliable > From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> > 4. Re: Re: QTR profiles for 2200 PC users > From: Hans Van Rafelghem <hvr@...> > 5. Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...> > 6. Re: Film Scanners > From: "naturalphoto2001" <emetz45@hotmail.com> > 7. Re: Film Scanners > From: "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> > 8. Re: Film Scanners > From: "Andre" <am1000@...> > 9. Cheap, easy & dontforgetgood > From: claudej1@... > 10. QTR or QTRgui doesn't like international characters > From: Daniel Staver <daniel@...> > 11. QTR for Epson 4000 / Windows > From: "Richard Voninski" <voninski@...> > 12. RE: QTR or QTRgui doesn't like international characters > From: "Stephen Billard" <stephen@...> > 13. Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> > 14. QTRGui not retaining page sizes > From: "ferdinand_paris" <ferdinand_paris@...> > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:36:02 -0700 > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...> > Subject: Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > Steve M., > > I get the picture of where you are coming from, and I have no reason to > dispute your perspective. However, I know there are a lot of serious > photographers out there (I get piles of e-mail from them) who are > interested > and would become involved but need to see a flat boulevard instead of a > narrow, steep path in front of them. I think B&W printing today is > analogous > to being into computers in the mid 80�s working from a command line, > and it > will take the equivalent of a GUI to get them to dive in. > > Why do I care, simply because of the advantage of numbers. I realize I > would > not have had much of the pro equipment I have worked with over the > years if > it weren�t for all of the enthusiast doctors and lawyers buying 10, > 20, 30, > a 100 times as much product as we pro�s used. Unless the enthusiasts > are > into this in the numbers that are possible the market size will limit > development and keep costs higher than they would be otherwise, and a > lot of > neat innovative stuff will never get developed. > > Regards, David B. Brooks > Shutterbug Magazine > E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com > > > > > On 10/15/04 8:00 PM, "sdmey4@..." <sdmey4@...> wrote: > >> David, I agree with all 3 of your paragraphs 100% ;0 I can only add >> ' affordable, and easy" are pretty subjective. Many ways to skin a >> cat so to >> speak, and I have tried them all from the cheapest to most expensive. >> If easy >> means using someone else's rgb curves on YOUR printer and monitior >> than its no >> wonder there are inconsistencies all over. I'm a big fan of easy and >> consistancy, so my point is, you have to do it yourself. Printing out >> patches >> and >> measuring with the eyeone is a breeze, no fuss no muss, just plain >> and simple >> linerized greyscale. What a great place to start. >> For users who don't have a handle on color management or the >> knowledge to >> write there own perfect RGB curves for conversion, what could be >> easier? Those >> expensive options pay for themselves rather quickly. >> I lost my taste for the epson driver along time ago, fourtunately I >> only use >> wide format machines now. People think this is too expensive? buts >> its really >> a money saver and easier in so many ways. >> Steve M. >> >> In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:31:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> fotografx@... writes: >> >>>> Steve, >>>> >>>> I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However >>>> printing >>> black >>>> &white is not limited to a �same as� workflow. There is no reason a >>>> user >>>> cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow >>>> process >>>> amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) >>>> options >>>> employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul >>>> Roark option >>>> is a simple one which, although it requires using a �same as� CMS >>>> profile >>>> setting in Photoshop, also involves a print driver setting of �no >>>> color >>>> adjustment� . This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to >>>> the open >>>> image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile >>>> selection in >>>> PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to >>>> linearize the >>>> application of CcMmY ink position output. >>>> Snip >>>>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other >> resources as >> they are often being updated. >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >> to >> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this >> same >> page. >> >> Please follow these basic guidelines: >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >> keep >> them short. >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> flames. >> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the >> membership >> without notice. >> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital >> B&W >> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed >> from the >> membership. >> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and >> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group >> Owner and >> Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files >> section: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ >> >> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE >> PRINT >> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?OWNER? AND >> ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE >> TO YOU >> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR >> EXEMPLARY >> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, >> GOODWILL, >> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE ?OWNER? AND >> ?MODERATORS? OF >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE >> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH >> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE >> DIGITAL BW, >> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF >> YOUR >> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY >> ON THE >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING >> TO THE >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129rjqfsu/ >> M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou >> ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097982058/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https: >> //www.orc >> hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> * To visit your group on the web, go to: >> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ >> * >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? >> subject=Unsub >> scribe> >> * >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:50:53 -0700 > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...> > Subject: Re: Film Scanners > > Robert, > > The extra 1400dpi for one does result in smoother, better tonality. > And as I > mentioned regarding grain, the Minolta minimizes apparent graininess > very > considerably. Most of the problems a lot of people have scanning silver > based B&W film comes from the fact the ramping algorithms in the driver > software for B&W film are not well developed � most of the R&D by > scanner > companies has been applied to scanning color positives. My solution is > to > scan silver-based black and white as a positive in 48-bit RAW files, > which I > then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a > negative > image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in > Shutterbug > magazine about 3 years ago. > > I recently did a couple of hundred 17x22 prints testing the Epson Pro > 4000, > and many of them were 35mm images scanned with the Minolta 5400 with > the > image size printed set at 15x20 inches. When I did all my printing in > a wet > darkroom I seldom printed 35mm larger than 11x14. Now some of those > same > images look even better, larger, after scanning and printing digitally. > > Regards, David B. Brooks > Shutterbug Magazine > E-mail: fotografx@... > > > > > On 10/15/04 10:12 PM, "Robert" <la_native@...> wrote: > >> >> David, thank you for your informative comments. Given you positive >> feelings about the Minolta, is there a noticeable difference compared >> to the older Canon fs4000? Yes, there's an additional 1,400dpi >> resolution, but does that provide for better tonality? >> >> With my Canon, the best film for scanning is the b&w chromogenics (TCN >> and Xp-2). Tri-x and most silver-based films don't look so great -- >> the grain tends to block up and mess with the tone transitions. >> >> -Robert Ades >> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" >> <fotografx@m...> wrote: >>>> Robert, >>>> >>>> Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test and >> report on >>>> the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in Shutterbug >> magazine >>>> some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 4000FS >> some months >>>> before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, not >>>> because I >>>> have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine hardware, >>>> but >>>> because the software is the worst in its class and the scanner is on >> that >>>> basis grossly over-priced. >>>> >>>> The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning B&W >> silver-based >>>> film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct >>>> advantage not >>>> just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by 300dpi >> scans, but >>>> the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem with film >> grain, >>>> particularly with grainier film processed with acutance developers >>>> (low >>>> sodium sulfite formula�s) like Acufine and particularly Rodinal. In >>>> addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is >> actually a very >>>> fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube light >> source >>>> that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight blocking, >> which >>>> can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more collimated >>>> light >>>> source (like the difference printing with a diffusion versus and >> condenser >>>> enlarger). >>>> >>>> If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my film >> library in >>>> B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for invoice >> sending >>>> Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner. >>>> >>>> Regards, David B. Brooks >>>> Shutterbug Magazine >>>> E-mail: fotografx@m... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of >>>>>> the >>>>>> Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000. I >>>>>> know >>>>>> the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, >>>>>> better >>>>>> bit depth, ICE x 4, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better >>>>>> with >>>>>> B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the >> Canon. >>>>>> >>>>>> I already have the Canon and can live with its limitations. But >>>>>> I'd >>>>>> consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably better. >>>>>> >>>>>> All comments w/b appreciated! Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Robert Ades >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other >> resources as >>>>>> they are often being updated. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >>>>>> >>>>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you >> wish to >>>>>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting >> this same >>>>>> page. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines: >>>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages >> to keep >>>>>> them short. >>>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> flames. >>>>>> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the >> membership >>>>>> without notice. >>>>>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of >> digital B&W >>>>>> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be >> removed from the >>>>>> membership. >>>>>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules >>>>>> and >>>>>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group >> Owner and >>>>>> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files >> section: >>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ >>>>>> >>>>>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE >> PRINT >>>>>> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" >>>>>> AND >>>>>> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE >> LIABLE TO YOU >>>>>> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR >> EXEMPLARY >>>>>> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF >> PROFITS, GOODWILL, >>>>>> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND >> "MODERATORS" OF >>>>>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE >> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH >>>>>> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE >> DIGITAL BW, >>>>>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION >> OF YOUR >>>>>> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD >> PARTY ON THE >>>>>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER >> RELATING TO THE >>>>>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >>>>>> >>>>>> ADVERTISEMENT >>>>>> >>>>>> >> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1290hofu6/ >> M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou >>>>>> >> ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097982492/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https: >> //www.orc >>>>>> hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>> * To visit your group on the web, go to: >>>>>> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ >>>>>> * >>>>>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >>>>>> * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>>>> >> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? >> subject=Unsub >>>>>> scribe> >>>>>> * >>>>>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >>>>>> Service >>>>>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other >> resources as >> they are often being updated. >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >> to >> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this >> same >> page. >> >> Please follow these basic guidelines: >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >> keep >> them short. >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> flames. >> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the >> membership >> without notice. >> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital >> B&W >> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed >> from the >> membership. >> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and >> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group >> Owner and >> Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files >> section: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ >> >> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE >> PRINT >> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND >> �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE >> TO YOU >> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR >> EXEMPLARY >> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, >> GOODWILL, >> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND >> �MODERATORS� OF >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE >> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH >> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE >> DIGITAL BW, >> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF >> YOUR >> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY >> ON THE >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING >> TO THE >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1296v6e5b/ >> M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou >> ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097989966/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https: >> //www.orc >> hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> * To visit your group on the web, go to: >> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ >> * >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? >> subject=Unsub >> scribe> >> * >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:02:38 -0000 > From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> > Subject: StudioPrint, mono color management etc. was How reliable > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > <fotografx@m...> wrote: >> Steve M., >> >> Not according to the documentation that is published in the Ergosoft >> web >> site. They state specifically that it is not ICC compliant. As far > as I can >> establish all of the available, commercial RIPS for black and white > printing >> are intentionally proprietary, except of course for the Linux GIMP >> based >> solution. From my perspective it is a technical solution dictated by a >> business model. That model essentially assumes a delimited market > potential, >> in part reflected by the printers supported, and which offers > limited user >> control or independence. It�s the Polaroid philosophy now perpetuated >> as >> much as they can by Epson. > > This requires some clarification, which might effect some of your > views. What StudioPrint does for quads is really just an extremely > well executed expansion of features expected in any good RIP. All > these drivers, even the OEM ones, have the ability to partition. They > do it from light cyan to cyan, light magenta to magenta, and with the > UC printers light K to K as well. The good RIPs offer more user > control, not less, by giving the user options in controling those > partitions and other controls as well. All good RIPs offer the user > the ability to linearize each channel, including those made up of a > light and dark component. This is simply density tuning of the driver > per channel, not in the icc data path, also a user control not part of > OEM drivers. ICC profiling is done AFTER the RIP is tuned in this > manner for the particular printer, inkset, and paper being used. > All StudioPrint did was add a user selectable monochrome mode, and add > two more (for now) partitions, a very light black and a very very > light black. And of course like any good RIP, this channel is also > hardware linearizable. This has little to do with any color management > yet. It can be compared to the K only mode in the Epson driver, but > with that K channel partitionable into multiple inks. As you know, > when you select K only in the Epson driver, color management in the > driver is disabled, only gamma adjustments are offered. This makes > sense as the entire data path is single channel. > So actually, all that has been done is an expansion of features > already expected in good RIPs, perhaps what is proprietory is how well > it has been implemented. > In fact, the whole system is so user adjustable, it can be made to > work with practically any inkset on any supported printer. You could > even, in CMYK mode, used a 4 part quad inkset for K, and still have C, > M, and Y, inks for toning in a 7 ink printer, or the same with a 3 > part K in a 6 ink printer. All kinds of things are possible, and all > icc compatable in multichannel modes. It couldn't be more open. > These are not confinements dictated by a business model, we expect > these features from all good RIPs. The one that is a bit of a black > box with little user control, and a lot of secret "magic", is > ImagePrint, but it's users are quite happy and not complaining, and > even it is fully icc compliant. > >> I am not being critical in terms of what it does, or for that matter > what >> several other competitors also do. What I am suggesting is that it > does not >> parallel for instance what color management companies do like Monaco, >> Gretag-Macbeth or ColorVision, which is base their solutions on a > standard >> which interfaces seamlessly with OS based CMS�s� supporting full user >> independence after purchasing the software/hardware. > > Actually David, these companies are what are standing in our way of > placing color management in our single channel monochromatic data > path. They offer no way of building single channel luminosity only > profiling. Single channel icc compliant profiles are possible, but not > yet a feature of these apps. I have one obscure app that will make > them, but the printed percentage curves have to be entered by hand, > not measured in. It will also make what it calls a rich black profile > from measured color profiles, paper white, K point, the whole deal, > but this is not what we need. > As soon as one of these profiling apps allows us to build single > channel icc profiles made with our measurement devices, we can profile > any grayscale output device/driver/inkset/paper/etc., and if outputing > from photoshop, select it as our printer profile and be on our way. If > printing to a RIP, not out of an app, we'd simply have to convert and > save before printing, if the RIP or driver is in a currentaly non-icc > compliant single channel mode, as most of these special monochrome > drivers are, or SP in quad mode. > I hope all that makes sense, and if I have misunderstood and gone off > on a tangent, please accept my apology in advance. > Tyler > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:08:54 +0200 > From: Hans Van Rafelghem <hvr@avr-toon.com> > Subject: Re: Re: QTR profiles for 2200 PC users > > >> It should be possible to see if the profiles are actually the same >> file with different names by using a file compare routine. Any chance >> of getting a copy of the profile from Roy? I wonder why they weren't >> released. I find the semi-gloss profiles a bit warm, and am yet to >> see if I can cool them down enough. >> > Yes they are a bit on the brown side. > >> >> >> The Permajet thing is remarkable. I tried your suggestion to use this >> profile for colour in Ilford smooth pearl, and agree that it removes >> almost all the green cast. But what is your story this time about how >> you stumbled across its suitability for B&W? Are you trying all the >> new PC profiles for QTR with all the paper combinations, or was it >> serendipity again? >> >> > No, actually it was Carl who adviced to do so :-) . > >> I will try the Permajet profile. What mixture of cool and warm >> settings are you using? >> >> >> > 50% cool - 50% warm > >> Thanks. >> >> F_P >> >> >> > -- > > Hans Van Rafelghem > http://www.vanrafelghem.com > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:16:59 +0100 > From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...> > Subject: Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > I am sure that the next stage of B&W printing will be to allow a colour > managed workflow that includes accurate control over the inks but I > suspect > this is not an easy exercise (otherwise I am sure it would be much more > prevalent today) and will likely take some time. The solutions that > exist > along these lines today are expensive and inflexible (they don't > transport > to new inks for example). I have not used Paul's workflow but I > understand > it involves the application of curves to an RGB file to alter the > colour > composition of the file in order to manipulate the inks via a colour > driver. > Hardly a what you see is what you get workflow. My point was that > there > exists today an easy way to get quite a good softproof from any B&W > workflow. It is available to anyone with an Eye-One Photo. I have > found > that this has taken a lot of the trial and error out of my B&W > workflow. I > can simply work on an image and then soft proof for the paper I intend > to > use and then apply an adjustment curve so that it then matches my > original > file. Easy. No more too light/too dark vs screen. Now obviously if my > display were not correctly calibrated and I have not built soft proof > files > (with Carl's workflow) for my B&W printer output then I would again be > shooting in the dark. > > >> From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@mindspring.com> >> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:29:37 -0700 >> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >> Cc: <stevekale@...> >> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print >> workflow? >> >> >> Steve, >> >> I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However >> printing black >> & white is not limited to a �same as� workflow. There is no reason a >> user >> cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow process >> amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) >> options >> employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul Roark >> option >> is a simple one which, although it requires using a �same as� CMS >> profile >> setting in Photoshop, also involves a print driver setting of �no >> color >> adjustment� . This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to the >> open >> image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile selection >> in >> PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to linearize >> the >> application of CcMmY ink position output. >> >> Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully utilize >> color >> management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks. What >> is >> missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to >> drive >> the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output >> a >> print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale >> reflecting the >> ink application performance for each printer ink channel. Then the >> second >> step would be to �read� the densities from the test chart print. This >> can be >> accomplished with either a flatbed scanner which has the support to >> output >> raw data, or with a photospectrometer. The key piece of need software >> would >> allow inputting the density data read from the chart to be used to >> write a >> profile applying preset algorithms to match ideal aim-points to >> control the >> ink application for each ink color channel. >> >> Obviously a user B&W calibration and profiling capability will >> require a >> significant investment in R&D, as well as programming and marketing >> to bring >> these utilities to market. That will happen when the potential market >> is >> adequately recognized in size potential by those in the industry who >> have >> the capability to take the risks to undertake this challenge. From my >> perspective there are many times more photographers already with a >> foot in >> digital who have an interest in a B&W capability (if it is reasonably >> easy >> and affordable), than there are among those already involved and >> using some >> kind of currently available B&W printing option. >> >> Regards, David B. Brooks >> Shutterbug Magazine >> E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com >> >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:50:35 -0000 > From: "naturalphoto2001" <emetz45@...> > Subject: Re: Film Scanners > > > David, thank you so much for your input. This is the kind of > information I have been looking all over for, as I am on the brink > of buying the 5400 for B&W negatives. Perhaps you could elaborate a > little on your workflow (or is it posted on Shutterbug web site?). > Thanks again ... > > Ed Metz > www.hwy90.com > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. > Brooks" <fotografx@m...> wrote: >> Robert, >> >> The extra 1400dpi for one does result in smoother, better > tonality. And as I >> mentioned regarding grain, the Minolta minimizes apparent > graininess very >> considerably. Most of the problems a lot of people have scanning > silver >> based B&W film comes from the fact the ramping algorithms in the > driver >> software for B&W film are not well developed � most of the R&D > by > scanner >> companies has been applied to scanning color positives. My > solution is to >> scan silver-based black and white as a positive in 48-bit RAW > files, which I >> then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a > negative >> image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in > Shutterbug >> magazine about 3 years ago. >> >> I recently did a couple of hundred 17x22 prints testing the Epson > Pro 4000, >> and many of them were 35mm images scanned with the Minolta 5400 > with the >> image size printed set at 15x20 inches. When I did all my printing > in a wet >> darkroom I seldom printed 35mm larger than 11x14. Now some of > those same >> images look even better, larger, after scanning and printing > digitally. >> >> Regards, David B. Brooks >> Shutterbug Magazine >> E-mail: fotografx@m... >> >> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:58:26 -0000 > From: "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@gmx.net> > Subject: Re: Film Scanners > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > <fotografx@m...> wrote: > >> then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a >> negative >> image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in >> Shutterbug >> magazine about 3 years ago. > > Hello David, inverting a positive scan seems to be what many people > recommend and what I already tried. Probably there is a lot to > improove in my technique, I looked on the Shutterbug website but did > not find your article - is it online? > > Thanks, bernie > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:06:10 -0000 > From: "Andre" <am1000@...> > Subject: Re: Film Scanners > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie Ess" > <albatros-@g...> wrote: >> >> improove in my technique, I looked on the Shutterbug website but did >> not find your article - is it online? >> >> Thanks, bernie > > Here's what you're looking for: > http://www.shutterbug.net/features/0902sb_bw/index.html > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:42:04 EDT > From: claudej1@... > Subject: Cheap, easy & dontforgetgood > > In a message dated 10/15/2004 10:13:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes: > >> lost my taste for the epson driver along time ago, fourtunately I >> only use >> wide format machines now. People think this is too expensive? buts its >> really >> a money saver and easier in so many ways. >> Steve M. >> > > David and Steve in particular > > I too share your frustation/disdain for the subtle variabilities of > many the > "throwaway" plasic printers. On the other hand I'm constantly amazed > that they > can create such technological marvels and sell them so cheap by merely > chargin $5,000 per gallon of "usable" ink from thos little > cartrideges. (packaging, > packaging, packaging). > > My 9500, 7500, 7600, 3000, 5500, 5000, and 4000 have all proven this in > various forms of color/quad/matte/glossy applications with various > coatings/lamintations. I have owned or tested just about every > significat Epson printer ever > made since 1994's original Stylus. Guess which ones I'm now seeking, > keeping > and using to earn a living or print family snaps? > > Epson's head life rating and CONSITENCY over the life of the heads is > triple > for the Pro DX-3 units vs. the consumer printers. I have always felt > that it > was fundamentally wrong to squirt pigments out of consumer level > printheads > when they were designed for dyes. Paul Roark's recent work with the > 2000P bears > this out when working with simplified monotone inks, since the printer > was > designed for PIGMENTS and cost twice as much as it's dye brethrens. > > Wouldn't we think that, in the absence of close-out periods, that a > printer > that costs twice as much would have better mechanics and electronics > inside? > It's my electronics/design/manufacturing background talking, but given > a certain > profit margin dictated by the bean counters that run companies, > engineers can > make a better product with more money to work with. You simply get > what you > pay for. > > As a parallel point, was it really that much more money to get a > vibration-free., motorized 4x5 Beseler enlarger than a plastic cheapie > lens wiggler for > the serious B&W darkroom worker? > > Like Paul Roark says, for matte papers, isn't a used 7500 printer that > can be > purchased for about $700 on Ebay cheaper in the long run than goofing > around > with the cheapies with their sloppier manufacturing tolerances? > > That being said, the exception might be the R800, but that's color. > > Given that Epson "abandons" old models at an alarming pace to keep up > with > Moore's law and market demands, we B&W guys, who are inherently > "mavericks" by > putting experimental foreign inks in older Epsons, benefit from "cheap" > leftovers. This is borne out when you can buy used Pro level machines > on Ebay for 10 > cents on the dollar from just 3 years ago. > > On the other topic: "It's easy if you work hard, but hard if you work > easy" > and the "seriousness" of the activity is directly proportional to the > dollars > and time spent. > > Claude Jodoin > Tech. Editor > Rangefinder > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:48:13 +0200 > From: Daniel Staver <daniel@...> > Subject: QTR or QTRgui doesn't like international characters > > Just noticed a small bug when printing some pictures with QTR and > QTRgui > yesterday. If I try to print files with any Norwegian charcaters > (������) in the filenames the files refuse to print. > > I don't know whether the problem is with QTR or QTRgui. It's very easy > to avoid this by renaming the files anyway so it's not a major problem. > > -- > Daniel Staver > http://daniel.staver.no > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:22:19 -0000 > From: "Richard Voninski" <voninski@...> > Subject: QTR for Epson 4000 / Windows > > > > Does anybody have any idea when QTR for the Epson 4000 will become > available for Windows? Anybody know if they have a Beta test program > for a few brave souls? > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:57:26 -0700 > From: "Stephen Billard" <stephen@...> > Subject: RE: QTR or QTRgui doesn't like international characters > > I checked this out. QTRgui passes the correct file name on in its batch > file. However, when QuadToneRIP displays the name in its log, the name > has > changed. I used the "�" character. It changed into "�". I am not > familiar > enough with extended character sets to speculate why it would change > like > that. > > Anyway, needless to say, QuadToneRIP could not open the image since it > had > the wrong name. > > -Stephen > www.sbillard.org/Stephen > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniel Staver [mailto:daniel@petraflux.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 7:48 AM >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [Digital BW] QTR or QTRgui doesn't like >> international characters >> >> >> >> Just noticed a small bug when printing some pictures with QTR >> and QTRgui yesterday. If I try to print files with any >> Norwegian charcaters >> (������) in the filenames the files refuse to print. >> >> I don't know whether the problem is with QTR or QTRgui. It's >> very easy >> to avoid this by renaming the files anyway so it's not a >> major problem. >> >> -- >> Daniel Staver >> http://daniel.staver.no >> > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:00:39 -0000 > From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> > Subject: Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > > One more quick comment, I was also able to test ColorVision�s new > Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and was very impressed. I've used > and tested a few different hardware calibration apps/devices, and this > seems very good. > Also, I just wanted to add that it's nice to you posting on this list, > David. Hope I haven't chased you off. > Tyler > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > <fotografx@m...> wrote: >> >> Bernie, >> >> May I suggest that �color management� and monitor calibration and > profiling >> could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen >> and >> what you obtain in a print even though you are working with > grayscale and >> not color. I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered >> ColorVision�s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the >> resulting >> calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly > well-matched and >> the screen gray is at a neutral balance I�ve not seen before. And > may I also >> suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range > compared to >> a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching > in prints >> as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT�s are much closer in >> brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range. >> >> Regards, David B. Brooks >> Shutterbug Magazine >> E-mail: fotografx@m... >> >> >> >> >> On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote: >> >>> >>> When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the >>> advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there >>> would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100% >>> predictable results. >>> >>> Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that >>> this is >>> not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following >>> issues: >>> >>> 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never >>> exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my >>> flat panel the 100% to 0% >>> steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep >>> shadows (around 95% >>> black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally >>> black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows. >>> >>> 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo, >>> because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, >>> see >>> also my other message about the foliage and trees. >>> >>> 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from >>> time >>> to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen, >>> sometimes they are slightly too light. >>> >>> Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say >>> gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is >>> probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor). >>> >>> So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow? >>> >>> Thanks for your input, >>> >>> Bernhard >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as >>> they are often being updated. >>> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >>> >>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you > wish to >>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > this same >>> page. >>> >>> Please follow these basic guidelines: >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages > to keep >>> them short. >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > flames. >>> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > membership >>> without notice. >>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of > digital B&W >>> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > removed from the >>> membership. >>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and >>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group > Owner and >>> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files > section: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ >>> >>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT >>> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND >>> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE > LIABLE TO YOU >>> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR > EXEMPLARY >>> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF > PROFITS, GOODWILL, >>> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH >>> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE > DIGITAL BW, >>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION > OF YOUR >>> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD > PARTY ON THE >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER > RELATING TO THE >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >>> >>> ADVERTISEMENT >>> >>> > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129jjh7kv/ > M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou >>> > ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097925477/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https:/ > /www.orc >>> hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS> >>> >>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> * To visit your group on the web, go to: >>> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ >>> * >>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >>> * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? > subject=Unsub >>> scribe> >>> * >>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . >>> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:49:22 -0000 > From: "ferdinand_paris" <ferdinand_paris@...> > Subject: QTRGui not retaining page sizes > > > Stephen > > I've noticed that in the current version of QTRGui, all the settings > from the last session are saved, except page size, which is always > reset to the size at the top of the list - Letter. I print on A4 or > A3. Not a major issue, provided I remember to reset it each time I > open QTRGui. I thought an earlier version retained this setting, but > perhaps I am wrong (getting old and the memory is going - it's why I > need a camera). > > F_P > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from > the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group > Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the > Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� > AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message
Soft proof for QTR and wireless printing.
2004-10-18 by Jerry Hadam