Hi Jerry, The proofing files (i.e. .psf files) all go into: yourhome/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Color/Proofing/ There's an install file that copies them into the right place. I haven't tried bluetooth and I'm not sure how you set up a printer for bluetooth. I've done wireless printing just using shared printing -- that's simple just set "share printers" on the machine with the printer. Using the USB port on the airport is probably another possibility but I haven't used that either. Roy --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hadam <jerry@p...> wrote: > Hello all, > I am finally getting around to trying to install QTR. I went all > through Roy's site and the Outbackphoto tutorial that they had on their > site. The point I am at right now is that I have downloaded the soft > proofing profiles from Roy's and now I can't find the page that details > installation of these items. > > I am running OSX Panther with Photoshop CS, and Epson 2200 with > standard inkset (my folder for soft proof reads 2200 QTR UC) on a Mac > G4 running a 1.5 ghz G4 processor and 1Gb of ram. > > The files in the folder look like plugins but read proof on them. Where > do these go? > > Also I am trying to use the bluetooth or my built-in airport stuff to > wirelessly print to this printer I guess I need a bluetooth print > server or an Airport extreme print server- anyone have any experience > with this? (reply personally if you think it is too OT for the list). > > Thanks very much, > Jerry > > Jerry Hadam > jerry@p... > 208-726-2942 > 888-540-8053 > > In Saddletree Cutsom Framing > Crazy Horse Square-Ketchum > > Box 2749 > Ketchum, ID 83340 > > > On Oct 16, 2004, at 11:06 AM, > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > > > > There are 14 messages in this issue. > > > > Topics in this digest: > > > > 1. Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@m...> > > 2. Re: Film Scanners > > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@m...> > > 3. StudioPrint, mono color management etc. was How reliable > > From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> > > 4. Re: Re: QTR profiles for 2200 PC users > > From: Hans Van Rafelghem <hvr@a...> > > 5. Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > From: Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> > > 6. Re: Film Scanners > > From: "naturalphoto2001" <emetz45@h...> > > 7. Re: Film Scanners > > From: "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> > > 8. Re: Film Scanners > > From: "Andre" <am1000@v...> > > 9. Cheap, easy & dontforgetgood > > From: claudej1@a... > > 10. QTR or QTRgui doesn't like international characters > > From: Daniel Staver <daniel@p...> > > 11. QTR for Epson 4000 / Windows > > From: "Richard Voninski" <voninski@h...> > > 12. RE: QTR or QTRgui doesn't like international characters > > From: "Stephen Billard" <stephen@s...> > > 13. Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> > > 14. QTRGui not retaining page sizes > > From: "ferdinand_paris" <ferdinand_paris@y...> > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:36:02 -0700 > > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@m...> > > Subject: Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > > > Steve M., > > > > I get the picture of where you are coming from, and I have no reason to > > dispute your perspective. However, I know there are a lot of serious > > photographers out there (I get piles of e-mail from them) who are > > interested > > and would become involved but need to see a flat boulevard instead of a > > narrow, steep path in front of them. I think B&W printing today is > > analogous > > to being into computers in the mid 80¹s working from a command line, > > and it > > will take the equivalent of a GUI to get them to dive in. > > > > Why do I care, simply because of the advantage of numbers. I realize I > > would > > not have had much of the pro equipment I have worked with over the > > years if > > it weren¹t for all of the enthusiast doctors and lawyers buying 10, > > 20, 30, > > a 100 times as much product as we pro¹s used. Unless the enthusiasts > > are > > into this in the numbers that are possible the market size will limit > > development and keep costs higher than they would be otherwise, and a > > lot of > > neat innovative stuff will never get developed. > > > > Regards, David B. Brooks > > Shutterbug Magazine > > E-mail: fotografx@m... > > > > > > > > > > On 10/15/04 8:00 PM, "sdmey4@a..." <sdmey4@a...> wrote: > > > >> David, I agree with all 3 of your paragraphs 100% ;0 I can only add > >> ' affordable, and easy" are pretty subjective. Many ways to skin a > >> cat so to > >> speak, and I have tried them all from the cheapest to most expensive. > >> If easy > >> means using someone else's rgb curves on YOUR printer and monitior > >> than its no > >> wonder there are inconsistencies all over. I'm a big fan of easy and > >> consistancy, so my point is, you have to do it yourself. Printing out > >> patches > >> and > >> measuring with the eyeone is a breeze, no fuss no muss, just plain > >> and simple > >> linerized greyscale. What a great place to start. > >> For users who don't have a handle on color management or the > >> knowledge to > >> write there own perfect RGB curves for conversion, what could be > >> easier? Those > >> expensive options pay for themselves rather quickly. > >> I lost my taste for the epson driver along time ago, fourtunately I > >> only use > >> wide format machines now. People think this is too expensive? buts > >> its really > >> a money saver and easier in so many ways. > >> Steve M. > >> > >> In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:31:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > >> fotografx@m... writes: > >> > >>>> Steve, > >>>> > >>>> I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However > >>>> printing > >>> black > >>>> &white is not limited to a ³same as² workflow. There is no reason a > >>>> user > >>>> cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow > >>>> process > >>>> amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) > >>>> options > >>>> employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul > >>>> Roark option > >>>> is a simple one which, although it requires using a ³same as² CMS > >>>> profile > >>>> setting in Photoshop, also involves a print driver setting of ³no > >>>> color > >>>> adjustment² . This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to > >>>> the open > >>>> image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile > >>>> selection in > >>>> PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to > >>>> linearize the > >>>> application of CcMmY ink position output. > >>>> Snip >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > >> resources as > >> they are often being updated. > >> > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > >> > >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > >> to > >> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > >> same > >> page. > >> > >> Please follow these basic guidelines: > >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > >> keep > >> them short. > >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > >> flames. > >> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > >> membership > >> without notice. > >> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital > >> B&W > >> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed > >> from the > >> membership. > >> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > >> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group > >> Owner and > >> Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files > >> section: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > >> > >> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > >> PRINT > >> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?OWNER? AND > >> ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE > >> TO YOU > >> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR > >> EXEMPLARY > >> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, > >> GOODWILL, > >> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE ?OWNER? AND > >> ?MODERATORS? OF > >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > >> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > >> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE > >> DIGITAL BW, > >> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF > >> YOUR > >> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY > >> ON THE > >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING > >> TO THE > >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > >> > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> > >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> > >> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129rjqfsu/ > >> M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou > >> ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097982058/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/ *https: > >> //www.orc > >> hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS> > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ > >> * > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? > >> subject=Unsub > >> scribe> > >> * > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > >> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:50:53 -0700 > > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@m...> > > Subject: Re: Film Scanners > > > > Robert, > > > > The extra 1400dpi for one does result in smoother, better tonality. > > And as I > > mentioned regarding grain, the Minolta minimizes apparent graininess > > very > > considerably. Most of the problems a lot of people have scanning silver > > based B&W film comes from the fact the ramping algorithms in the driver > > software for B&W film are not well developed most of the R&D by > > scanner > > companies has been applied to scanning color positives. My solution is > > to > > scan silver-based black and white as a positive in 48-bit RAW files, > > which I > > then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a > > negative > > image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in > > Shutterbug > > magazine about 3 years ago. > > > > I recently did a couple of hundred 17x22 prints testing the Epson Pro > > 4000, > > and many of them were 35mm images scanned with the Minolta 5400 with > > the > > image size printed set at 15x20 inches. When I did all my printing in > > a wet > > darkroom I seldom printed 35mm larger than 11x14. Now some of those > > same > > images look even better, larger, after scanning and printing digitally. > > > > Regards, David B. Brooks > > Shutterbug Magazine > > E-mail: fotografx@m... > > > > > > > > > > On 10/15/04 10:12 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote: > > > >> > >> David, thank you for your informative comments. Given you positive > >> feelings about the Minolta, is there a noticeable difference compared > >> to the older Canon fs4000? Yes, there's an additional 1,400dpi > >> resolution, but does that provide for better tonality? > >> > >> With my Canon, the best film for scanning is the b&w chromogenics (TCN > >> and Xp-2). Tri-x and most silver-based films don't look so great -- > >> the grain tends to block up and mess with the tone transitions. > >> > >> -Robert Ades > >> > >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > >> <fotografx@m...> wrote: > >>>> Robert, > >>>> > >>>> Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test and > >> report on > >>>> the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in Shutterbug > >> magazine > >>>> some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 4000FS > >> some months > >>>> before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, not > >>>> because I > >>>> have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine hardware, > >>>> but > >>>> because the software is the worst in its class and the scanner is on > >> that > >>>> basis grossly over-priced. > >>>> > >>>> The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning B&W > >> silver-based > >>>> film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct > >>>> advantage not > >>>> just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by 300dpi > >> scans, but > >>>> the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem with film > >> grain, > >>>> particularly with grainier film processed with acutance developers > >>>> (low > >>>> sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly Rodinal. In > >>>> addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is > >> actually a very > >>>> fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube light > >> source > >>>> that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight blocking, > >> which > >>>> can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more collimated > >>>> light > >>>> source (like the difference printing with a diffusion versus and > >> condenser > >>>> enlarger). > >>>> > >>>> If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my film > >> library in > >>>> B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for invoice > >> sending > >>>> Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner. > >>>> > >>>> Regards, David B. Brooks > >>>> Shutterbug Magazine > >>>> E-mail: fotografx@m... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000. I > >>>>>> know > >>>>>> the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, > >>>>>> better > >>>>>> bit depth, ICE x 4, etc. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better > >>>>>> with > >>>>>> B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the > >> Canon. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I already have the Canon and can live with its limitations. But > >>>>>> I'd > >>>>>> consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably better. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> All comments w/b appreciated! Thanks! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Robert Ades > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > >> resources as > >>>>>> they are often being updated. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you > >> wish to > >>>>>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > >> this same > >>>>>> page. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines: > >>>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages > >> to keep > >>>>>> them short. > >>>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > >> flames. > >>>>>> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > >> membership > >>>>>> without notice. > >>>>>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of > >> digital B&W > >>>>>> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > >> removed from the > >>>>>> membership. > >>>>>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group > >> Owner and > >>>>>> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files > >> section: > >>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > >> PRINT > >>>>>> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" > >>>>>> AND > >>>>>> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE > >> LIABLE TO YOU > >>>>>> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR > >> EXEMPLARY > >>>>>> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF > >> PROFITS, GOODWILL, > >>>>>> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND > >> "MODERATORS" OF > >>>>>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > >> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > >>>>>> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE > >> DIGITAL BW, > >>>>>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION > >> OF YOUR > >>>>>> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD > >> PARTY ON THE > >>>>>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER > >> RELATING TO THE > >>>>>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yahoo! 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Terms of > >>>>>> Service > >>>>>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > >> resources as > >> they are often being updated. > >> > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > >> > >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > >> to > >> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > >> same > >> page. > >> > >> Please follow these basic guidelines: > >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > >> keep > >> them short. > >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > >> flames. > >> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > >> membership > >> without notice. > >> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital > >> B&W > >> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed > >> from the > >> membership. > >> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > >> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group > >> Owner and > >> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files > >> section: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > >> > >> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > >> PRINT > >> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND > >> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE > >> TO YOU > >> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR > >> EXEMPLARY > >> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, > >> GOODWILL, > >> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND > >> "MODERATORS" OF > >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > >> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > >> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE > >> DIGITAL BW, > >> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF > >> YOUR > >> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY > >> ON THE > >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING > >> TO THE > >> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > >> > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> > >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> > >> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1296v6e5b/ > >> M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou > >> ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097989966/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/ *https: > >> //www.orc > >> hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS> > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ > >> * > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? > >> subject=Unsub > >> scribe> > >> * > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > >> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:02:38 -0000 > > From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> > > Subject: StudioPrint, mono color management etc. was How reliable > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > > <fotografx@m...> wrote: > >> Steve M., > >> > >> Not according to the documentation that is published in the Ergosoft > >> web > >> site. They state specifically that it is not ICC compliant. As far > > as I can > >> establish all of the available, commercial RIPS for black and white > > printing > >> are intentionally proprietary, except of course for the Linux GIMP > >> based > >> solution. From my perspective it is a technical solution dictated by a > >> business model. That model essentially assumes a delimited market > > potential, > >> in part reflected by the printers supported, and which offers > > limited user > >> control or independence. It¹s the Polaroid philosophy now perpetuated > >> as > >> much as they can by Epson. > > > > This requires some clarification, which might effect some of your > > views. What StudioPrint does for quads is really just an extremely > > well executed expansion of features expected in any good RIP. All > > these drivers, even the OEM ones, have the ability to partition. They > > do it from light cyan to cyan, light magenta to magenta, and with the > > UC printers light K to K as well. The good RIPs offer more user > > control, not less, by giving the user options in controling those > > partitions and other controls as well. All good RIPs offer the user > > the ability to linearize each channel, including those made up of a > > light and dark component. This is simply density tuning of the driver > > per channel, not in the icc data path, also a user control not part of > > OEM drivers. ICC profiling is done AFTER the RIP is tuned in this > > manner for the particular printer, inkset, and paper being used. > > All StudioPrint did was add a user selectable monochrome mode, and add > > two more (for now) partitions, a very light black and a very very > > light black. And of course like any good RIP, this channel is also > > hardware linearizable. This has little to do with any color management > > yet. It can be compared to the K only mode in the Epson driver, but > > with that K channel partitionable into multiple inks. As you know, > > when you select K only in the Epson driver, color management in the > > driver is disabled, only gamma adjustments are offered. This makes > > sense as the entire data path is single channel. > > So actually, all that has been done is an expansion of features > > already expected in good RIPs, perhaps what is proprietory is how well > > it has been implemented. > > In fact, the whole system is so user adjustable, it can be made to > > work with practically any inkset on any supported printer. You could > > even, in CMYK mode, used a 4 part quad inkset for K, and still have C, > > M, and Y, inks for toning in a 7 ink printer, or the same with a 3 > > part K in a 6 ink printer. All kinds of things are possible, and all > > icc compatable in multichannel modes. It couldn't be more open. > > These are not confinements dictated by a business model, we expect > > these features from all good RIPs. The one that is a bit of a black > > box with little user control, and a lot of secret "magic", is > > ImagePrint, but it's users are quite happy and not complaining, and > > even it is fully icc compliant. > > > >> I am not being critical in terms of what it does, or for that matter > > what > >> several other competitors also do. What I am suggesting is that it > > does not > >> parallel for instance what color management companies do like Monaco, > >> Gretag-Macbeth or ColorVision, which is base their solutions on a > > standard > >> which interfaces seamlessly with OS based CMS¹s¹ supporting full user > >> independence after purchasing the software/hardware. > > > > Actually David, these companies are what are standing in our way of > > placing color management in our single channel monochromatic data > > path. They offer no way of building single channel luminosity only > > profiling. Single channel icc compliant profiles are possible, but not > > yet a feature of these apps. I have one obscure app that will make > > them, but the printed percentage curves have to be entered by hand, > > not measured in. It will also make what it calls a rich black profile > > from measured color profiles, paper white, K point, the whole deal, > > but this is not what we need. > > As soon as one of these profiling apps allows us to build single > > channel icc profiles made with our measurement devices, we can profile > > any grayscale output device/driver/inkset/paper/etc., and if outputing > > from photoshop, select it as our printer profile and be on our way. If > > printing to a RIP, not out of an app, we'd simply have to convert and > > save before printing, if the RIP or driver is in a currentaly non-icc > > compliant single channel mode, as most of these special monochrome > > drivers are, or SP in quad mode. > > I hope all that makes sense, and if I have misunderstood and gone off > > on a tangent, please accept my apology in advance. > > Tyler > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:08:54 +0200 > > From: Hans Van Rafelghem <hvr@a...> > > Subject: Re: Re: QTR profiles for 2200 PC users > > > > > >> It should be possible to see if the profiles are actually the same > >> file with different names by using a file compare routine. Any chance > >> of getting a copy of the profile from Roy? I wonder why they weren't > >> released. I find the semi-gloss profiles a bit warm, and am yet to > >> see if I can cool them down enough. > >> > > Yes they are a bit on the brown side. > > > >> > >> > >> The Permajet thing is remarkable. I tried your suggestion to use this > >> profile for colour in Ilford smooth pearl, and agree that it removes > >> almost all the green cast. But what is your story this time about how > >> you stumbled across its suitability for B&W? Are you trying all the > >> new PC profiles for QTR with all the paper combinations, or was it > >> serendipity again? > >> > >> > > No, actually it was Carl who adviced to do so :-) . > > > >> I will try the Permajet profile. What mixture of cool and warm > >> settings are you using? > >> > >> > >> > > 50% cool - 50% warm > > > >> Thanks. > >> > >> F_P > >> > >> > >> > > -- > > > > Hans Van Rafelghem > > http://www.vanrafelghem.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:16:59 +0100 > > From: Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> > > Subject: Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > > > I am sure that the next stage of B&W printing will be to allow a colour > > managed workflow that includes accurate control over the inks but I > > suspect > > this is not an easy exercise (otherwise I am sure it would be much more > > prevalent today) and will likely take some time. The solutions that > > exist > > along these lines today are expensive and inflexible (they don't > > transport > > to new inks for example). I have not used Paul's workflow but I > > understand > > it involves the application of curves to an RGB file to alter the > > colour > > composition of the file in order to manipulate the inks via a colour > > driver. > > Hardly a what you see is what you get workflow. My point was that > > there > > exists today an easy way to get quite a good softproof from any B&W > > workflow. It is available to anyone with an Eye-One Photo. I have > > found > > that this has taken a lot of the trial and error out of my B&W > > workflow. I > > can simply work on an image and then soft proof for the paper I intend > > to > > use and then apply an adjustment curve so that it then matches my > > original > > file. Easy. No more too light/too dark vs screen. Now obviously if my > > display were not correctly calibrated and I have not built soft proof > > files > > (with Carl's workflow) for my B&W printer output then I would again be > > shooting in the dark. > > > > > >> From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@m...> > >> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > >> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:29:37 -0700 > >> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > >> Cc: <stevekale@b...> > >> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print > >> workflow? > >> > >> > >> Steve, > >> > >> I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However > >> printing black > >> & white is not limited to a ³same as² workflow. There is no reason a > >> user > >> cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow process > >> amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) > >> options > >> employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul Roark > >> option > >> is a simple one which, although it requires using a ³same as² CMS > >> profile > >> setting in Photoshop, also involves a print driver setting of ³no > >> color > >> adjustment² . This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to the > >> open > >> image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile selection > >> in > >> PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to linearize > >> the > >> application of CcMmY ink position output. > >> > >> Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully utilize > >> color > >> management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks. What > >> is > >> missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to > >> drive > >> the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output > >> a > >> print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale > >> reflecting the > >> ink application performance for each printer ink channel. Then the > >> second > >> step would be to ³read² the densities from the test chart print. This > >> can be > >> accomplished with either a flatbed scanner which has the support to > >> output > >> raw data, or with a photospectrometer. The key piece of need software > >> would > >> allow inputting the density data read from the chart to be used to > >> write a > >> profile applying preset algorithms to match ideal aim-points to > >> control the > >> ink application for each ink color channel. > >> > >> Obviously a user B&W calibration and profiling capability will > >> require a > >> significant investment in R&D, as well as programming and marketing > >> to bring > >> these utilities to market. That will happen when the potential market > >> is > >> adequately recognized in size potential by those in the industry who > >> have > >> the capability to take the risks to undertake this challenge. From my > >> perspective there are many times more photographers already with a > >> foot in > >> digital who have an interest in a B&W capability (if it is reasonably > >> easy > >> and affordable), than there are among those already involved and > >> using some > >> kind of currently available B&W printing option. > >> > >> Regards, David B. Brooks > >> Shutterbug Magazine > >> E-mail: fotografx@m... > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:50:35 -0000 > > From: "naturalphoto2001" <emetz45@h...> > > Subject: Re: Film Scanners > > > > > > David, thank you so much for your input. This is the kind of > > information I have been looking all over for, as I am on the brink > > of buying the 5400 for B&W negatives. Perhaps you could elaborate a > > little on your workflow (or is it posted on Shutterbug web site?). > > Thanks again ... > > > > Ed Metz > > www.hwy90.com > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. > > Brooks" <fotografx@m...> wrote: > >> Robert, > >> > >> The extra 1400dpi for one does result in smoother, better > > tonality. And as I > >> mentioned regarding grain, the Minolta minimizes apparent > > graininess very > >> considerably. Most of the problems a lot of people have scanning > > silver > >> based B&W film comes from the fact the ramping algorithms in the > > driver > >> software for B&W film are not well developed most of the R&D > > by > > scanner > >> companies has been applied to scanning color positives. My > > solution is to > >> scan silver-based black and white as a positive in 48-bit RAW > > files, which I > >> then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a > > negative > >> image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in > > Shutterbug > >> magazine about 3 years ago. > >> > >> I recently did a couple of hundred 17x22 prints testing the Epson > > Pro 4000, > >> and many of them were 35mm images scanned with the Minolta 5400 > > with the > >> image size printed set at 15x20 inches. When I did all my printing > > in a wet > >> darkroom I seldom printed 35mm larger than 11x14. Now some of > > those same > >> images look even better, larger, after scanning and printing > > digitally. > >> > >> Regards, David B. Brooks > >> Shutterbug Magazine > >> E-mail: fotografx@m... > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:58:26 -0000 > > From: "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> > > Subject: Re: Film Scanners > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > > <fotografx@m...> wrote: > > > >> then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a > >> negative > >> image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in > >> Shutterbug > >> magazine about 3 years ago. > > > > Hello David, inverting a positive scan seems to be what many people > > recommend and what I already tried. Probably there is a lot to > > improove in my technique, I looked on the Shutterbug website but did > > not find your article - is it online? > > > > Thanks, bernie > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 8 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:06:10 -0000 > > From: "Andre" <am1000@v...> > > Subject: Re: Film Scanners > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie Ess" > > <albatros-@g...> wrote: > >> > >> improove in my technique, I looked on the Shutterbug website but did > >> not find your article - is it online? > >> > >> Thanks, bernie > > > > Here's what you're looking for: > > http://www.shutterbug.net/features/0902sb_bw/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 9 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:42:04 EDT > > From: claudej1@a... > > Subject: Cheap, easy & dontforgetgood > > > > In a message dated 10/15/2004 10:13:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > >> lost my taste for the epson driver along time ago, fourtunately I > >> only use > >> wide format machines now. People think this is too expensive? buts its > >> really > >> a money saver and easier in so many ways. > >> Steve M. > >> > > > > David and Steve in particular > > > > I too share your frustation/disdain for the subtle variabilities of > > many the > > "throwaway" plasic printers. On the other hand I'm constantly amazed > > that they > > can create such technological marvels and sell them so cheap by merely > > chargin $5,000 per gallon of "usable" ink from thos little > > cartrideges. (packaging, > > packaging, packaging). > > > > My 9500, 7500, 7600, 3000, 5500, 5000, and 4000 have all proven this in > > various forms of color/quad/matte/glossy applications with various > > coatings/lamintations. I have owned or tested just about every > > significat Epson printer ever > > made since 1994's original Stylus. Guess which ones I'm now seeking, > > keeping > > and using to earn a living or print family snaps? > > > > Epson's head life rating and CONSITENCY over the life of the heads is > > triple > > for the Pro DX-3 units vs. the consumer printers. I have always felt > > that it > > was fundamentally wrong to squirt pigments out of consumer level > > printheads > > when they were designed for dyes. Paul Roark's recent work with the > > 2000P bears > > this out when working with simplified monotone inks, since the printer > > was > > designed for PIGMENTS and cost twice as much as it's dye brethrens. > > > > Wouldn't we think that, in the absence of close-out periods, that a > > printer > > that costs twice as much would have better mechanics and electronics > > inside? > > It's my electronics/design/manufacturing background talking, but given > > a certain > > profit margin dictated by the bean counters that run companies, > > engineers can > > make a better product with more money to work with. You simply get > > what you > > pay for. > > > > As a parallel point, was it really that much more money to get a > > vibration-free., motorized 4x5 Beseler enlarger than a plastic cheapie > > lens wiggler for > > the serious B&W darkroom worker? > > > > Like Paul Roark says, for matte papers, isn't a used 7500 printer that > > can be > > purchased for about $700 on Ebay cheaper in the long run than goofing > > around > > with the cheapies with their sloppier manufacturing tolerances? > > > > That being said, the exception might be the R800, but that's color. > > > > Given that Epson "abandons" old models at an alarming pace to keep up > > with > > Moore's law and market demands, we B&W guys, who are inherently > > "mavericks" by > > putting experimental foreign inks in older Epsons, benefit from "cheap" > > leftovers. This is borne out when you can buy used Pro level machines > > on Ebay for 10 > > cents on the dollar from just 3 years ago. > > > > On the other topic: "It's easy if you work hard, but hard if you work > > easy" > > and the "seriousness" of the activity is directly proportional to the > > dollars > > and time spent. > > > > Claude Jodoin > > Tech. Editor > > Rangefinder > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 10 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:48:13 +0200 > > From: Daniel Staver <daniel@p...> > > Subject: QTR or QTRgui doesn't like international characters > > > > Just noticed a small bug when printing some pictures with QTR and > > QTRgui > > yesterday. If I try to print files with any Norwegian charcaters > > (æøåÆØÅ) in the filenames the files refuse to print. > > > > I don't know whether the problem is with QTR or QTRgui. It's very easy > > to avoid this by renaming the files anyway so it's not a major problem. > > > > -- > > Daniel Staver > > http://daniel.staver.no > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 11 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:22:19 -0000 > > From: "Richard Voninski" <voninski@h...> > > Subject: QTR for Epson 4000 / Windows > > > > > > > > Does anybody have any idea when QTR for the Epson 4000 will become > > available for Windows? Anybody know if they have a Beta test program > > for a few brave souls? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 12 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:57:26 -0700 > > From: "Stephen Billard" <stephen@s...> > > Subject: RE: QTR or QTRgui doesn't like international characters > > > > I checked this out. QTRgui passes the correct file name on in its batch > > file. However, when QuadToneRIP displays the name in its log, the name > > has > > changed. I used the "æ" character. It changed into "µ". I am not > > familiar > > enough with extended character sets to speculate why it would change > > like > > that. > > > > Anyway, needless to say, QuadToneRIP could not open the image since it > > had > > the wrong name. > > > > -Stephen > > www.sbillard.org/Stephen > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Daniel Staver [mailto:daniel@p...] > >> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 7:48 AM > >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: [Digital BW] QTR or QTRgui doesn't like > >> international characters > >> > >> > >> > >> Just noticed a small bug when printing some pictures with QTR > >> and QTRgui yesterday. If I try to print files with any > >> Norwegian charcaters > >> (æøåÆØÅ) in the filenames the files refuse to print. > >> > >> I don't know whether the problem is with QTR or QTRgui. It's > >> very easy > >> to avoid this by renaming the files anyway so it's not a > >> major problem. > >> > >> -- > >> Daniel Staver > >> http://daniel.staver.no > >> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 13 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:00:39 -0000 > > From: "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> > > Subject: Re: How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow? > > > > > > One more quick comment, I was also able to test ColorVision¹s new > > Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and was very impressed. I've used > > and tested a few different hardware calibration apps/devices, and this > > seems very good. > > Also, I just wanted to add that it's nice to you posting on this list, > > David. Hope I haven't chased you off. > > Tyler > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > > <fotografx@m...> wrote: > >> > >> Bernie, > >> > >> May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and > > profiling > >> could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen > >> and > >> what you obtain in a print even though you are working with > > grayscale and > >> not color. I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered > >> ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the > >> resulting > >> calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly > > well-matched and > >> the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And > > may I also > >> suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range > > compared to > >> a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching > > in prints > >> as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in > >> brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range. > >> > >> Regards, David B. Brooks > >> Shutterbug Magazine > >> E-mail: fotografx@m... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the > >>> advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there > >>> would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100% > >>> predictable results. > >>> > >>> Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that > >>> this is > >>> not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following > >>> issues: > >>> > >>> 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never > >>> exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my > >>> flat panel the 100% to 0% > >>> steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep > >>> shadows (around 95% > >>> black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally > >>> black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows. > >>> > >>> 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo, > >>> because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, > >>> see > >>> also my other message about the foliage and trees. > >>> > >>> 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from > >>> time > >>> to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen, > >>> sometimes they are slightly too light. > >>> > >>> Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say > >>> gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is > >>> probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor). > >>> > >>> So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow? > >>> > >>> Thanks for your input, > >>> > >>> Bernhard > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > > resources as > >>> they are often being updated. > >>> > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > >>> > >>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you > > wish to > >>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > > this same > >>> page. > >>> > >>> Please follow these basic guidelines: > >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages > > to keep > >>> them short. > >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > > flames. > >>> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > > membership > >>> without notice. > >>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of > > digital B&W > >>> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > > removed from the > >>> membership. > >>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > >>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group > > Owner and > >>> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files > > section: > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > >>> > >>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > > PRINT > >>> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND > >>> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE > > LIABLE TO YOU > >>> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR > > EXEMPLARY > >>> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF > > PROFITS, GOODWILL, > >>> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND > > "MODERATORS" OF > >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE > > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > >>> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE > > DIGITAL BW, > >>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION > > OF YOUR > >>> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD > > PARTY ON THE > >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER > > RELATING TO THE > >>> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Yahoo! 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Terms of Service > >>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > Message: 14 > > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:49:22 -0000 > > From: "ferdinand_paris" <ferdinand_paris@y...> > > Subject: QTRGui not retaining page sizes > > > > > > Stephen > > > > I've noticed that in the current version of QTRGui, all the settings > > from the last session are saved, except page size, which is always > > reset to the size at the top of the list - Letter. I print on A4 or > > A3. Not a major issue, provided I remember to reset it each time I > > open QTRGui. I thought an earlier version retained this setting, but > > perhaps I am wrong (getting old and the memory is going - it's why I > > need a camera). > > > > F_P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > > resources as they are often being updated. > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > > this same page. > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > > keep them short. > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from > > the membership without notice. > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital > > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > > removed from the membership. > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group > > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the > > Files section: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > > PRINT YAHOO! 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Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message
Re: Soft proof for QTR and wireless printing.
2004-10-18 by Roy Harrington