Digital BW, The Print

Actually let me go one step further.  When Mr Adams made his prints with the
Zone System he could be assured that his Zone V ended up where he wanted it
(and he could alter print gamma/contrast) around it.  As currently
configured, mid grey shifts when we load one print curve vs another - even
though it did not shift in the digital negative.  Unfortunately, I believe,
we have gone a little backwards in our rigour and method.


> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:32:24 +0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Tonal range and linearization
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: The Wogster <wogsterca@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 09:57:44 -0500
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Tonal range and linearization
>> 
>> 
>> Steve Kale wrote:
>>> Tyler
>>> 
>>> Yes I agree that there are many ways to replicate WYSIWYG.  But this
>>> proposed workflow is not intended to revolve solely around that.  It is
>>> intended to more clearly and explicitly relate the tonal range of the
>>> printer into the final steps of the workflow process.
>>> 
>>> The big problem with today's setup is that there is a hidden transfer
>>> function (a remapping of pixel and their density/luminance values) from
>>> workspace to print space which is HIDDEN from the view of the user - it is
>>> imbedded in the RIP code and curve generation process.  It does not conform
>>> with the user's workspace.  What's more, the nature of this transfer
>>> function - it's end points, representation of mid grey, and all other points
>>> between - is different for every paper and ink combination!  Move from a
>>> curve for matt paper such as EEM to a glossy "curve" on glossy paper and the
>>> way all your mid tones are reproduced is different.  A PS adjustment curve
>>> for one will not give the same result for another.  Over the last 2 years I
>>> have witnessed hundreds if not thousands of posts on this forum which are
>>> the symptoms of this problem.  People get their prints looking nice on
>>> screen using the full tonal range available to them and then send it to the
>>> printer without any understanding of the tonal range limitations of the
>>> paper/ink combination they are using nor the way the printer will remap
>>> their original (file's) tonal range to fit the narrower one.
>> 
>> Isn't photographic paper the same?
> 
> Yes and no. Each photographic paper has a defined and published tonal
> response curve with its limits (dMin and dMax) and contrast or gamma.
> Different photographic papers were made with different contrast ratios
> BECAUSE that was the only way to alter contrast (one also could use a
> different negative development but once the negative was developed the only
> way to alter contrast was to select a different paper).
> 
> Digital provides a much more satisfying and flexible method for altering
> contrast - within the digital file itself.  This is analogous to being able
> to change the composition of the developed negative.
> 
>> 
>> Part of the problem with the current process, is there are no givens....
>>     People think that they can change parts of the printing process,
>> without needing to think about how that will change the process.
>> 
>> For example, say I have a darkroom print, printed on Ilford Multigrade
>> RC paper, processed with Ilford's Multigrade Developer,  with copious
>> notes on the way it was processed.  Now I move to  Agfa Multicontrast
>> Classic, and switch to to Kodak Dektol as the developer, following my
>> notes, will the two prints look identical.  Slim chance to none, the
>> different papers have different sensitivity curves, and the developers
>> work differently.
>> 
>> In the fume room, they resolve this, by only using only one or two
>> papers, in fact you would probably only keep one type and brand of
>> paper, with some in glossy, satin/pearl and matte finishes.  You would
>> learn how the paper reacts to changes, and get fairly good after a
>> while, at knowing what the result would look like, seeing the negative
>> on the light table.
>> 
>> 
>> Same goes for digital printing, if you change the paper or ink or both,
>> you should expect the result to look different.
> 
> But of course!  At a minimum they have a different dynamic range.  The
> question is whether one SHOULD expect the gamma/contrast within the dynamic
> range to change.  In a digital world this is unnecessary because we have a
> much better method for altering the image file (the digital negative).
> Worse yet - you would not want any change to not be transparent.  Better to
> keep print space gamma at a known constant and alter the digital negative.
> 
> 
>> This is why you would
>> change the paper or ink or both in the first place.  For example, if I
>> have a print on Kodak Ultima Picture Paper, and pop in a sheet of
>> Hahnemmühle Photo Rag, and print it again, I should expect to have a
>> different result.  If I know how those two papers work, with that
>> particular ink, in that particular printer, then I will know how I need
>> to adjust the image for printing.  The other option is customized
>> curves, so that they react the same......
>> 
> 
> When you swap papers are you aware of the exact change in tonal range and
> more importantly to what extent and how the relative tonal range has
> precisely changed?  I doubt it.  Rather through trial and error you (like
> me) get a feel for the change and work against it.  Much like Mr Weston and
> his light meter....
> 
> Once again:  in a darkroom world we had to change print space gamma because
> once developed we had no mechanism for altering the negative.  In a digital
> world, we have very precise tools for altering the digital negative.  It is
> better that other factors remain constant and precisely predictable, or at
> least very transparent.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND
> ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND ³MODERATORS² OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>