>So what is this desire of so many of us (myself included) for glossy >high DMax print? Are we conditioned purely by the numerical value of >DMax? Is it really worth it? Am I trying to rationalize the >limitation of my 4000? I don't think so. I've kind of wondered about the concern shown in so many messages posted here with dmax or the lack thereof. In traditional photographic printing dmax is mostly a theoretical concept in the sense that real prints don't need to exhibit true dmax in the darkest areas and doing tends to result in there being no separation of tones within the important shadow areas of the print. Even the ANSI standard for stating the exposure range of papers doesn't use dmax as the starting point, it uses 90% of dmax. Perhaps I lack the eye or the standards of others here or maybe I need to see more prints by people who are better printers than I am but FWIW I've been completely satisfied with the blacks I get using matte papers and Eboni black ink with QTR and my 2200. I don't know who it was who first said that we don't need the blackest possible black, all we need is a convincing black but I certainly agree. The difference between the densities of 1.7 and 2.2 mentioned in the message below is a difference of a little over one and a half stops or approximately the difference between zone 1 and high zone 2 in zone system terms. I think it's pretty well agreed that at least in traditional darkroom printing there's no practical difference between Zones I and II (a difference can be seen but only when the two zones are placed next to each other so that the darker tone is available for reference). If the same is true with ink jet prints perhaps that's one of the reasons why the two prints in question looked alike despite the different measurements for dmax with the two types of paper. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Edmunds" <charleysfabrics@...> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 2:00 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] DMax and Glossy Prints - Are We Kidding Ourselves? At last some sanity, repeat this often!! Forest John Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@...> wrote: I have been happily printing and giving away b/w prints using various methods for the last 3 years, always on matte papers using FS & FSN inks on a 1280, and QTR UC inks on a 4000 lately. Seeing the possibility of gloss prints, I printed some images at a local CompUsa on the newer HP printers using their gray inks. I am a hobbyist, and do not sell. Seeing the HP prints' wow-punch got me interested in glossy prints. Soon I was asking myself how to go about doing that, having just spent a lot of money on the 4000. I am just not keen on the bronzing one gets with the UC inks and RC coated papers. I wondered how much of my own "wow-punch" reaction to glossy prints was purely conditioned on knowing that the matte prints were giving me a paltry ~1.7 DMax, while the RC prints were in the 2.2 range. Was I too influenced by numbers? So I did an experiment. I printed the same image (see attached link) to 6.5 x 10 inches with QTR on EEM and on Pictorico Photo Gallery Glossy, both neutral, both very linear. There is absolutely no difference in the detail rendered in these prints. Tonal transitions (some subtle, some drastic) in the image are faithfully reproduced in both prints. The original was a 4x5 transparency scanned on a 4870 scanner; it has tons of detail. The Pictorico print was sprayed very carefully with Printshield, so it exhibited NO bronzing. http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=3066583 I showed the prints to co-workers at lunch, randomly stopping them in coridoors, in their offices, in the smoke-hall. These are just regular folk, most who appreciate art. I sampled a total of 46 individuals, both men and women. They were allowed to handle the prints, look at them anyway they chose for as long as they wanted. I asked them to pick their preference of the two. To cut to the chase: 30 people prefered the matte print. 16 people prefered the glossy print. So what is this desire of so many of us (myself included) for glossy high DMax print? Are we conditioned purely by the numerical value of DMax? Is it really worth it? Am I trying to rationalize the limitation of my 4000? Regards. Shilesh Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. 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Message
Re: [Digital BW] DMax and Glossy Prints - Are We Kidding Ourselves?
2005-03-11 by B. Ellis