Digital BW, The Print

>Prior
>to printing (manually on a PC and on-the-fly with a Mac) we must convert
>from the workspace to the print space.

I've been following this thread with interest but not always understanding,
partly because (rightly or wrongly) I do so few of the things being
mentioned in it and am wondering whether I should be (I do use black and
white film so I never have to convert from color to black and white and
never have anything in rgb, which may be part of the reason for the
difference between what I do and some of the steps mentioned in this
thread).

I won't ask for a complete explanation of things I don't follow, with a
little time and study I probably can figure them out, but the above
statement particularly puzzles me. I use a PC and do everything in Photoshop
from opening the image after scanning to all editing to saving the two files
(one for the unsharpened version, the other the final sharpened version). I
then open QTR/gui, select the image, make any chages necessary in the other
QTR/gui options for the particular print I'm making,  then hit the print
button.  The first print usually looks fine, occasionally I have to make a
minor adjustment in Photoshop or the gui screen and print again. I don't
consciously "convert from the workspace to the print space." Is QTR/gui
doing that for me when I choose the various options there or is this step
something I should be doing manually myself?



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Quadtone RIP Faded print



I think you misinterpreted his response.  A RIP like QTR gives YOU (via
curve construction) full control over the individual ink jets - as though
you could control each ink with the Epson driver.  You can't do this with
the Epson driver.  You are using the canned QTR profiles and don't see this.
Nonetheless you should be getting prints better than the Epson ones.  This
is possible with QTR and the inks you are using - we all wouldn't spend so
much time with it if it didn't.

First things first.  A soft proof with "simulate ink black" checked is
REALITY.  You should be doing this for your colour work as well - in fact
you should have "Simulate Paper White" checked for colour.  Without these
checked you are not looking at a proper soft proof.  Why?  Because the black
point (and white point) of your display is much darker (whiter) than ink (or
no ink) on matte paper.  Neither the Epson driver nor QTR can match the
darkness of your display.  So first make sure you are proofing correctly -
colour or B&W.

(As a test, you can set up a proof for matte paper and then photo paper.
Toggle between the two and you can see the effect of getting better colour
gamut and density - there is less image "degradation" because you can get
better dMax on photo paper.)

Satisfy yourself also that the same thing happens with the Epson driver.
Set up a softproof to EEM (using the Epson colour ICC profile) and do it
properly, checking simulate paper white (and ink black).

Sounds like you also need to check how your screen is calibrated.  Without
that, you are simply shooting in the dark.

When you send your image to print with the Epson driver you no doubt input
the print space profile and use perceptual rendering with black point
compensation checked - no colour adjustment in the driver.  This is standard
ICC profile based printing with the profile conversion being done by PS and
not the driver.  You can think of the QTR workflow in the same way.  We need
to manage the transition from a broad workspace such as Lab or Adobe RGB (or
their single channel equivalents QTR Grey Lab and Grey Gamma 2.2) to the
much narrower (at least as far as B&W is concerned) print space.  Roy has
made two generic print space ICC profiles - one for Matte paper and one for
Photo paper (much in the same way that you have an ICC profile for EEM and
one for Epson Premium Semi-gloss, albeit these profiles are colour).  Prior
to printing (manually on a PC and on-the-fly with a Mac) we must convert
from the workspace to the print space.  When you print with the Epson driver
this conversion is done on-the-fly (as it is always done with a Mac) by PS
before the image hits the Epson driver (and is done, typically, with
perceptual rendering and black point compensation checked) - for PC QTR you
need to do this step manually so that you can open the converted image in
QTRGui.

So far you should see that there is little difference between the workflow
of the Epson driver and QTR.

When the person who did the QTR curves that you are using, they used QTR's
curve design features to strictly control which inks were used and in what
quantity.  They told the printer to use a certain set of inks in certain
order and in increasing density to create a range of tone from no ink (paper
white) to full ink (dMax).  The Lab readings (back to Lab again as a
measurement base) were then taken and the gradation linearised so that there
were even steps in density from white to black.  (In essence, the Epson
driver does the same thing but you can't control the inks.)

Average paper white and dMax numbers were used to produce the ICC profile
QTR Matte Paper and QTR Photo Paper.  So now you should see that you have
converted to a print space which has a linear progression in density from
paper white to full black.

The point of all this is to explain that the workings behind QTR and the
workflow we are trying to take you through are not gobbledygook but really
very sensible (and quite in keeping with what the Epson driver does).
IJC/OPM uses exactly the same methodology.

The only way you can get greater dynamic range (your perception of greater
contrast) for a given paper from the Epson driver would be if it could
generate a darker black - you can't do anything about the white.  (There is
some debate that the Epson driver can generate a darker black with the same
inks but this is at the margin only and not the source of your problem.)

So start by checking your workflow.  Have you printed a step wedge - QTR
alongside the Epson?  How are you printing with the Epson?




> From: davidpichevin <davidpichevin@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:10:29 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Quadtone RIP Faded print
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor"
> <wiz@n...> wrote:
>
>> Short answer, printing with PhotoShop is like shooting with a point
> and shoot camera. Auto everything, and little control. (It's no
> coincidence that PhotoShop and "point and shoot" are both initialed
> "PS"). QTR, ICM/OCP, ImagePrint, etc. are like using the camera on
> manual, exposing via the zone system, and paying attention to your
> darkroom procedures. You don't get a "master print" from the drug store.
>>
>
> I disagree. Photoshop gives me extremely good color prints. Perhaps it
> is hampered by the Epson driver for the black and white. There is no
> reason why Photoshop will give me an accurate print (accurate=close to
> the work I have done on my picture) and a 3rd-party program will be so
> far off out of the box and will require so much tweaking. Photoshop
> gives me enough control to do whatever I want with my picture and thn
> print it exactly the way I see it. Unfortunately the Epson driver
> mangles it and doesn't want to output black and white as black and
> white. As far as I know Photoshop is not responsible for the
> metamerism effect and doesn't apply any automatic treatment to my
> picture besides ICC profile conversion. I could use any other with as
> much control as I want, as long as the Epson drivers (and therefore
> all the Epson inks) are used, I'll get the metamerism, so this is not
> helping.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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