Digital BW, The Print

I've not been very scientific in comparing my film scans (135) vs. DSLR
pics (D70), but I find that while the latter are usually "smoother," 
noise in the
shadows can often be a problem. Generally speaking, I find noise more
objectionable than grain (excepting a "salt/pepper" grain I get in some 
scans
and which just screws any sharpening attempts). But that's an aesthetic
judgement kind of thing - think of Ralph Gibson's work for an extreme case.

Also, while I'm a very happy film-scanner/digi-shooter/digi-B&W printer 
hobbyist,
I'm recently coming back around to the conclusion that a wet print from 
a "pro
lab" (whatever that means, but I don't wet print myself) is hard to 
beat. A buddy
of mine just showed me a series of wet prints (from Chrome in Wash, DC) 
of a
recent jazz gig he took on 135 format P3200, and I was pretty blown 
away. Yes,
some grain, but nice looking grain :-) Anyway, nicer than anything I've ever
gotten out of scanning P3200.

Not a "dis" on the digital route. I'm pretty happy working with the digi 
tools I
have at hand.

Happy shooting and printing.

Scott

Paul Roark wrote:

> >... are you saying that if you had been using film, you could
> > have gotten the same or better results with a single exposure? and
> > less manipulation?
>
> I'm not sure about the single exposure. I didn't have my spot meter 
> with me
> for the digital shot -- a mistake I won't make in the future. Given the
> "slide-like" 7 stop dynamic range, I'm going back to carrying my 
> Pentax spot
> meter.
>
> Medium format, Tech Pan film would probably have ended up making a better
> image with less manipulation, however. Also, I would have been able to
> print larger than 16x20 with MF TP.
>
> MF Tmax 100 would probably not have made as good an image, however. The
> grain in the foggy parts of the image would have shown. With the Canon 
> 8 mp
> image, the foggy areas are totally smooth, and I really like that.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
> __________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim
> > Jasutis
> > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 5:47 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital vs scan for BW Print
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > "Osroubek" wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I have recently started shooting with a Canon 20D from shooting
> > MF
> > > > then scanning on the Minolta Multi Pro. I shoot in RAW format
> > and
> > > >convert with Adobe Camera Raw in CS2. The
> > > > MF shots were on transparency then converted to BW in PS using
> > > > usually the channel mixer.
> > > >I notice that the scanned film when converted to black and white
> > > > results in a better and cleaner looking BW image ...
> > >
> > > I have also started using the 8 MP Canon chip in the XT and
> > enlarge to 16 x
> > > 20. My other cameras are MF. What I've found is that the 8 mp
> > chip can
> > > make a 16 x 20 that is very close to the film shot, but it
> > probably takes
> > > more work. Here are some of my observations. (The shot I just
> > worked up is
> > > on my web page, below.)
> > >
> > > The limited latitude of the sensor requires bracketing in many
> > shots, also
> > > not the usual sun-lit scenic.
> > >
> > > The noise/grain level of the digital image is less than Tmax 100
> > in the
> > > bright areas, but can be a problem in dark smooth areas.
> > >
> > > The depth of field advantages of the small sensor are significant.
> > >
> > > CS2 smart sharpening is very useful, but still not enough (or I'm
> > not good
> > > enough with it) to avoid too-bright small highlights in some areas
> > by the
> > > time the image is sharp enough. To correct for this, I have to us
> > a curve
> > > to pull these down in the affected area.
> > >
> > > The very high contrast edges may require that the green channel
> > alone be
> > > used. The green channel, maybe because it has 2 sensors, seems to
> > give the
> > > best image in some areas.
> > >
> > > I have not found third party raw converters to be better than the
> > CS2
> > > download.
> > >
> > > Overall, based on very limited experience, I'd say 8 mp can make a
> > good 16 x
> > > 20 -- not perfect, but then neither is MF 100 ISO film. Neither
> > can match
> > > MF Tech Pan, but that film is history (aside from the pile in my
> > freezer).
> > > Finding workflows to get around the limited latitude is probably
> > the area
> > > where more work is most needed.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> > I went an checked out your website to see the image you were talking
> > about. A very impressive image. You talk about the extra work needed
> > to produce this image from a digital capture. I may be reading you
> > wrong, but are you saying that if you had been using film, you could
> > have gotten the same or better results with a single exposure? and
> > less manipulation?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
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