Digital BW, The Print

Clayton, my apologies for adding to the confusion. I knew exactly what
you meant. Simply had a brain meltdown (it's 90 degrees in my office)
and also got all caught up in the sound of my own musings.
I do that a lot.
Regarding the K7 inks, I have to think they were neutralized using
color pigs, just as hue is adjusted in the other "carbon" inks most of
us use. My read of Jon's info is that their target was lab neutral on
PhotoRag, and that print hue will vary from there on a per paper basis,
I too have heard of white inks. I believe Ernst may know something
about them. Makes sense to me that they could be worthwhile in
creation of gray inks, and a possibly different result from simple
dilution.
I think we are in agreement in general on this entire subject, but
that I have more tolerance for hues mixed in directly than you do. I
really do love a few of the sets as they are now, and I know they have
color pigs in them. There I think we part personal preferences with
regard to inkjet, as well as the opaque verses translucent look
(another subject entirely, and in fact relevant to the K7s).
To the K3s, and the beginning of this thread, I think when someone
using a RIP, anything from QTR on up that will partition well, starts
giving us their experiences, it'll be hard to get a handle on what
they'll do because of the RGB driver's use of the color inks as you
say. If someone has done this and reported impressions, I missed it.
I've never thought you are an opinion nazi, and can't imagine how
anyone here could interpret your contributions in that manner.
Need air conditioning.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Tyler,
> 
> >Clayton, I haven't tried it. 
> 
> Oh too bad, I was hoping you might have some info about it.
> 
> 
> >Frankly I think we part ways with our preferences here. 
> 
> Please understand I am really not interested in whether anyone agrees
> with me or has the same preferences.  I hope this thread has not given
> that impression.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about what
> they like.  I started this whole thing by expressing an observation
> and opinion with the thought that it might be helpful for anyone
> considering one of these printers.  I've been amazed and frustrated
> because people's responses seem to indicate a complete
> misunderstanding or misinterpretation of my words.  People continue to
> react to only one part of it, and (I'm sorry to say) you have just
> done it again.  My repeated posts on this are simply attempts to
> clarify misunderstanding.  
> 
> 
> >However, dead neutral may not appeal to me either. Most of my 
> >favorite prints by any number of people made numerous traditional 
> >ways have a hint of hue, or hue variation...
> 
> I am amazed by this statement because I just earlier in this thread
> re-explained this exact point (for the 4th time) to someone else who
> seemed to have gotten fixated on the word 'neutral'.  Maybe this word
> triggers some sort of subconscious emotional reaction and the mind
> shuts off and nothing else registers.  I have tried hard to explain my
> point as clearly as I can, yet every time someone thinks I'm pushing
> neutral prints on everyone.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> So, here we go, one more (hopefully last) time:
> 
> 1) I am not in any way shape or form suggesting that neutral prints 
> are what everything should be.  I was just using that as an example. 
> I also used sepia as an example.
> 
> 2) The main point is that when color inks are used to emulate any kind
> of tone, from neutral to sepia, selenium toned Gallerie or whatever,
> the various hues of the inks, however subtle, can be seen.  To me it's
> just not convincing, I don't like it.  
> 
> 3) If someone doesn't mind that it's fine with me and I don't want to
> change their mind.  
> 
> 4) I think I'm sensitive to the colors because I've been using BO for
> several years and am used to seeing its pure tones, neutral through
> warm (pure meaning without any color inks).  
> 
> 5) I'm making a point of this because I think anyone coming into
> digital BW printing should be aware of the issue.  Especially because
> K3 uses yellow, which good RIPS and toned inks avoid (potential
> longevity issues).  If they choose to go this route fine, but let it
> be a conscious decision.  
> 
> 6) Readers, please do not infer from my remarks that I like only
> neutral prints.   I do like them, but I also like warm sometimes.  I
> keep 6 or more papers on hand, which render Eboni BO in tones ranging
> from neutral to very warm.  After I work up an image on EEM proof
> paper I print it on these other papers to determine which it looks
> best on.  My final prints span the range.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Back to Tyler
> 
> >Also, since I print for others, I can't jump ship too quickly on
> >inksets I use.
> 
> Understood.
> 
> 
> >I have it from a trusted friend and expert printer, who beta tested 
> >them, that they are very impressive. But they are neutral, 
> 
> Does your friend know how the neutrality was achieved?  IOW, is there
> color toner in them?
> 
> 
> >...neutral,...so I might not like them as much, and you may love 
> >them <G>.
> 
> (Again, I don't necessarily like everything neutral.)  What I got from
> the announcement was that because they are neutral they require
> various papers to achieve different tones, just as with Eboni BO.  But
> I'm not sure what they mean by a neutral ink.  You can't call Eboni
> neutral or warm, it depends what paper it's on.  On Kayenta it's
> neutral.  On Wm Turner it's extremely warm.  So I wonder what they
> mean.  If it prints neutral on PR then it's cooler than Eboni (which
> is medium warm on PR).  I saw somewhere that research is being done
> with white pigments, to be mixed with black to get grays.  I wonder if
> K7 is done that way...Can you get any light on this from your friend?
>  Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm