Digital BW, The Print

OK this is getting to be a very big yawn.  I made a simple statement:  that
standardised measurements allow us to communicate better and that Clayton's
valuable and extensive testing (not his photography which I couldn't care a
less about and neither would I expect him or anyone else to care about mine)
would be all the more useful if it also included objective measurements.
This isn't about quality of photography or quality of prints.  There are
many aesthetic qualities of prints which can't be measured - that's obvious
- and we will continue to struggle to describe these qualities in an
objective fashion.  In the end, a print exchange rather than a cyberspace
forum is the only way to see and then discuss some of these qualities.  And
it's not a personal attack on Clayton.  As I've said before, it's impossible
to discuss photographic skill or even print "quality" on this forum when we
can't SEE prints.  What we can discuss is the technical aspects of printing
B&W and attempt to communicate what we see in our prints in a manner which
has meaning to people who can't see them.  The more objectively we can
describe certain qualities the better. In many respects, it's not about
photography at all.  A graphical artist who has never picked up a camera but
who is printing in B&W would find this forum very useful.

BTW I just tested two new (unreleased) papers - seriously.  One of the
papers appeared slightly blacker than the other with my current QTR ink
limit and Eboni ink but the second paper seemed a bit whiter in my indoor
lighting.  They seem to have similar surface texture.  I think I can achieve
about the same tonal range as some of my other previous papers I've tested
on the second paper but the first seems a little bit better.  I guess I'll
have to reprint all those previous papers now to see as I would not want to
rely on a fuzzy recollection of papers I tested quite some time ago.  Each
seems to have performed a bit better than the canvas I tested last week.  Of
course I'm not sure what others can achieve on other papers because as we
know their visual observations are heavily subjective and so YMMV.  It would
certainly seem worthwhile getting samples of the first paper when it's
released (and when it is released I'll remind people of these test results)
but of course it may not perform better than what you're already achieving.
My images printed with the first paper looked great but then so did the same
images printed on the second paper because I like my images.  Sarcastic -
yes that's now finally a little sarcastic.  But it's also how one would be
forced to communicate without objective yardsticks.  Try discussing
exposure, a photographic subject (rather than a printing subject), without
mentioning seconds, aperture and ISO.

Ciao for now


> From: Bob Marsolais <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 07:10:50 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clayton and Steve
> 
> Clayton,
> 
> Thank you for the many contributions you've made to advance digital
> art printing.  I want you to know I support your test methods and
> have personally seen the quality of the results.  Nothing attests
> more to the validity of what you are doing than the result itself.
> A few months ago I purchased a 5x7 of your church interior print to
> serve as an example of what I can do if I get my processes down.
> That print is absolutely fantastic!  I was expecting something nice,
> but not that nice.
> 
> Steve has gone past the point of a respectful, intellectual
> discussion and resorted to sarcasm in an attempt to establish his
> approach as superior.  Anyone receiving that type of response to an
> honest, open statement can be discouraged and wonder whether its
> worth the risk to continue making public the results of their work.
> I hope that thought never crosses your mind!  To not be able to
> benefit from your experience would be a serious loss to the entire
> printing community.
> 
> Please keep your posts and website updates coming.  They benefit
> many more people than the few who are irritated by them!
> 
> Bob
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> <cj@...> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Claude,
>> 
>>> Since I still do personal work in B&W, and as a former "zoner,"
>>> I can appreciate the work of Clayton, with his use of RELATIVE
>>> rating. Empirical testing of only 2 components, with a VERY
> useful 
>>> conclusion. One can readily make some informed decisions about
>>> substantial paper batch investments (financial committment) from
> a 
>>> guy who can "hang them on the wall,' as opposed to a meter
> reader. 
>>> To that I say:  nice work.
>> 
>> Thank you.  It's nice to have a confirmation from someone who
>> understands.  In my last posts on this issue I struggled to find
> the
>> right words to describe the purpose, or need, that the review
> attempts
>> to serve, and did not feel I succeeded.  It was very frustrating.
> You
>> have, in a few concise sentences, nailed it perfectly.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Clayton
>> 
>> 
>> Info on black and white digital printing at
>> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>> 
> 
> 
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