Digital BW, The Print

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Larry Heath wrote:
> > http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php
> > 
> > 
> > Is there any doubt that the person writing the article above 
would be saying what is said?
> > 
> > Tony Martin is President of Lyson USA.
> > 
> > A premier purveyor of dye based inks.
<snip>

Larry, I totally agree, that's the most important point about this
article, the author is bound to be an evangelist for dye based inks
and whatever papers they have been tested with. Although the article
is very well written, it should be taken with a large pinch of salt
(not a grain, as Paul R suggested :-)).

Having said that, the author omitted to mention metamerism problems
with pigments, which makes me wonder whether Lyson dyes also suffer
from this problem.

> Larry,
> 
> Wilhelm tested dye inks on pure cotton in the past. That is 
> paper without any inkjet coating like you would use in 
> intaglio printing etc. Arches for Iris, BFK Rives. This 
> testing was based on tests done for the Iris printer with dye 
> inks from several sources. Lyson made an ink like that 
> (Lysonic) and their Lysonic-E and Fotonic were further 
> developments from that ink but adapted for the Epson 9000 etc. 
> The CMYK sets tested like quoted on the pure cotton papers but 
> failed miserably when used on inkjet coated papers that were 
> then introduced, Hahnemuhle German Etching for example. CcMmYK 
> sets were worse on all papers. The dye inks on pure cotton 
> show far less detail and color gamut + they are not waterproof 
> (dye on inkjet coated paper is better but doesn't get near 
> pigment ink on coated paper).
> 
> The Lyson websites have misleading quotes from their own 
> tests. Lysonic E which has a lousy color gamut are tested on 
> CcMmYK printers, Fotonic which has a good color gamut but cm 
> inks that fade is tested on CMYK printers. 

Ernst,

Thanks for all this really detailed and valuable information. This
should be publicised more widely.

I've not used Fotonic inks, but comparing 3-D gamut plots of profiles
from the Lyson web site with profiles made for my Epson 2100 with UC
inks, the Fotonic gamut is significantly smaller. So I'm assuming that
Lyson's claims about gamut are dubious. It's interesting that the 2-D
gamut plots shown on Lyson's web site compare Lyson Fotonic inks with
the standard Epson inks in an Epson 870, which is now quite an old
printer by modern standards. Definitely a case of selective reporting!

Have you made profiles for Fotonic inks & seen better gamuts than
those in the standard Lyson profiles? How do they compare with modern
ink gamuts?

I have an interest in all this as I've been thinking about switching
to Lyson Fotonics in my 2100 after finally getting fed up with the
metamerism problems with the UC inks.

> The dye ink 
> competition was tested on CcMmYK printers (Van Son). The test 
> itself should be Wilhelm like according to Lyson, the 
> interpretation in years is Lyson like. I have used Epson, 
> Lysonic-E, Fotonic and Van Son dyes in an Epson 9000 and they 
> all faded.
> 
> So far no dye ink has beaten the pigment inks in longevity. 
> The HP dyes in combination with the right HP papers are 
> probably the best on the market right now and are Wilhelm 
> tested. The choice of papers is limited though.

Can you suggest a current HP A3-sized printer for both colour & B&W
printing? It may be cheaper for me to switch printers than put new
inks in my 2100. I hadn't previously considered HP because third party
ink (and driver/RIP) support seems better for Epson generally.

Thanks in anticipation,

Alan