Digital BW, The Print

I agree, its really a question of where, and how, you choose to do the
compression as it has to happen at some stage if you are going to make a
print.  I tend to develop my 4x5 B&W negs in a compensating developer (often
Prescysol EF) so they are fairly "flat", drum scan for a full tonal range
and then manipulate in Photoshop as I find this approach gives me the most
flexibility.  There are undoubtedly many other ways of doing it.

David Whistance

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Tom
Baker
Sent: 07 October 2008 22:46
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Subject Brightness Range - branch from [Digital BW] Re:
Getting reasonable scan


True.\ufffd But, if you really did capture 18 stops on film, the process of
converting to digital will necessarily compress the tonal range.\ufffd Meaning
you are giving up some tonal separation to the compression.\ufffd So, it would
seem that it would be better to design your exposure/film/developing so that
you get the best image on film.\ufffd One would have better control over that in
the analog process than in the, probably, linear compression that the
conversion to digital would impose.\ufffd I suppose, however, that you could
apply curves in the scanning step to offer some control of where the digital
compression would take place.
\ufffd
It's the same problem one would have when trying to print a negative with 18
stops, or even 12, in the darkroom.\ufffd Just different media.
\ufffd
Tom Baker

--- On Tue, 10/7/08, Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:

From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
Subject: Subject Brightness Range - branch from [Digital BW] Re: Getting
reasonable scan
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 2:31 PM






yes that's right, and I have seen Steve's prints as well. I don't
shoot interiors like Steve, but often back lit landscapes or other
difficult SBR. Whether or not a acanner can capture a wide film
density range has nothing to to with bit depth. Bit depth pertains to
how many levels between the extremes are described, not the extremes
themselves.

Many film developer combinations can handle extreme scene ranges. Then
the issue is exposing and processing into a range your scanner can
capture, usually not hard with negs. Once there, you could scan in 8
bit or 16 bit and get it all. After that the bit depth choice has to
do with process loss, editing, drivers, etc...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "David Whistance"
<david.whistance@ ...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure where this comes from. 16 bits of data gives 2 to the
power of
> 16 shades of grey, ie 65,536 of them. Should be plenty to divide by 17
> stops, particularly as the relationship between a stop and a set of
shades
> of grey is arbitrary - you can map them how you like with either the
scanner
> software or Photoshop. What does surprise me is that Steve gets
this from
> an Epson V700, however I've seen some of his images and he does
undoubtedly
> capture a very large SBR with detail at both ends so I'm sure he's
right.
>
> David Whistance
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Tom
> Baker
> Sent: 07 October 2008 22:04
> To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: RE: Subject Brightness Range - branch from [Digital BW] Re:
> Getting reasonable scan file sizes w/ MF & LF ...
>
>
> But, anything over 16 can't be represented in a 16 bit tiff file.
>
> TB
>
>
> --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Steve Gledhill <stephengledhill@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: Steve Gledhill <stephengledhill@ ...>
> Subject: RE: Subject Brightness Range - branch from [Digital BW] Re:
Getting
> reasonable scan file sizes w/ MF & LF ...
> To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 1:31 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dana,
>
> Not many images have that range \ufffd" but lately I\u2019ve been
photographing in
> cathedrals where the deep interior shadows through to the sunlit stained
> glass windows certainly have that challenge. So ... yes, I really do.
>
> Steve Gledhill
>
> www.virtuallygrey. co.uk <http://www.virtuall ygrey.co. uk/>
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:DigitalBlac kandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf
Of Dana
> H. Myers
> Sent: 07 October 2008 21:21
> To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: Subject Brightness Range - branch from [Digital BW] Re:
Getting
> reasonable scan file sizes w/ MF & LF ...
>
> Steve Gledhill wrote:
> > The next step requires the scanner to be able to scan high
> > density negatives \ufffd" or more specifically, areas of high density
\ufffd" the
> > highlights. My Epson V700 does that for me. The scanner captures the
> > whole range from clear film base to the maximum density of the
negative
> > and represents it in the TIFF file as a full range 16-bit greyscale
> > scan. So the huge SBR in the original scene is \u2018compressed\u2019
(via my
> > workflow) into the range my paper is capable of \ufffd" i.e. maximum
ink black
> > to paper white.
>
> Do you really capture 17-stops of range using a 16-bit TIFF?
>
> Dana
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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