Digital BW, The Print

Hi Paul,

  I have just read your updated write-up's and I am amazed by your endurance in researching new ink solutions.

I noticed that in your latest clear base formula you gave up on propylene glycol (which, as far as I remember, was present in the past). I could never make a decent base for Eboni out of it as the carbon pigments where settling at a very fast rate (matter of a couple of days, just by gravity). Since you were using it in your mix, I thought I was wrong somewhere, so I kept experimenting for another little while. But I had no luck and I totally abandoned it shortly after. I am glad you recently did the same.


In you Ink-Mixing write-up, I have appreciated the special consideration you reserved to Arches Watercolor paper. I believe, Clayton Jones also mentioned in a recent thread. As many know by now, I use almost exclusively uncoated fine art paper and Arches is among the three I like the best. In my honest opinion, when an image is nice and rich in content, there is no need to chase the ultimate D-max in order to attract the eye. 
Not long ago, I had an exhibit here, in Southern Italy, showing in the same gallery, some prints of my portfolio made on Arches Watercolor, Magnani Pescia, Moab Entrada and Carbon-Gelatine prints (the latter having a D-max above 1.9). Even when shown side-by-side the effect of different D-max was pretty much irrelevant and the lower density of  Magnani Pescia (dmax 1.47-1.51, depending on the batch) was more than made up by the beauty of the paper surface (it's a printmaking paper rather than watercolor).
Of course, when dealing with uncoated paper, the preparation of the file to send to the printer must be different than with inkjet paper and one has to pay more attention to global and local contrast that needs to be properly enhanced. I believe that, very often, the very reason why someone get very attracted by a particular paper is because the curves and the contrast he used when editing the file were more appropriate than with other papers. This issue is even more important with fine art papers which respond very differently to the same  curve/contrast. 

One last thing. Regarding the tone of diluted Eboni on Arches you  are obtaining (Carbon-Print-Tones.pdf), they are quite different from my observations. In fact, your Lab-B goes above about 5 in the interval between steps 7 and 13 (from what I can discern from the graph on page 3) while, in my case, that happens in the range of steps 3-7. 

Speaking of tones, one reason why I like so much Magnani Pescia is because of the uniformity of the tones with diluted Eboni: Lab-B ranges between 2.5 and 3.6 everywhere except the two lightest and darkest patches.

Thanks. Ciao,

  Mantinieri

http://www.mantinieri.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lenwk" <lenwk@> wrote:
> >
> > I've read Paul Roark's fine documentation on mixing the clear dilution base for making a set of inks for my R2400.  I believe my next step would be to understand the proportions of base and eboni MK ink to mix for each cartridge.  If so, where might I find some instructions?
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> The ink mixing PDF -- http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf -- links to the Carbon-6 PDF -- http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-6.pdf  You'll find the mixing ratios on page 2.  The specific gravity of Eboni and the base are the same, so it doesn't matter whether you use weight or volume.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"Mantinieri" <mantinieri@...> wrote:

>I have just read your updated write-up's and I am amazed by your endurance in researching new ink solutions.

Well, there is still room for the "darkroom enthusiast" version of digital printing.  I've marrowed my focus rather substantially, however.  The entry of the OEMs obviously had a major impact on field.  With them in the game, my focus is on setting a benchmark for  lightfastness -- 100% carbon -- and making products that are affordable for all and easy to use.  While Eboni-6 is very reasonably priced, the Carbon-6 is obviously the ultimate in affordability when it comes to dilute inksets.  Note, however, that printing with 100% Eboni black only is even cheaper.

What I'll be doing next is making the hextone approach easier and exploring some alternative substrates.

 
> I noticed that in your latest clear base formula you gave up on propylene glycol ...

It's still there -- in the Photo Flo.  Glycol is a significant ingredient, helping with paper penetration as well  as cleaning.  However, in my tests adding more of it resulted in less smooth printing.

 
> In you Ink-Mixing write-up, I have appreciated the special consideration you reserved to Arches Watercolor paper. I believe, Clayton Jones also mentioned in a recent thread. As many know by now, I use almost exclusively uncoated fine art paper and Arches is among the three I like the best. In my honest opinion, when an image is nice and rich in content, there is no need to chase the ultimate D-max in order to attract the eye.

I brought an Arches sample into the gallery where some knowledgable inkjet printers were here, and before they knew what it was, they commented on what nice blacks the print exhibited.  Go figure.  

 
> Not long ago, I had an exhibit here, in Southern Italy, showing in the same gallery, some prints of my portfolio made on Arches Watercolor, Magnani Pescia, Moab Entrada and Carbon-Gelatine prints (the latter having a D-max above 1.9). Even when shown side-by-side the effect of different D-max was pretty much irrelevant and the lower density of  Magnani Pescia (dmax 1.47-1.51, depending on the batch) was more than made up by the beauty of the paper surface (it's a printmaking paper rather than watercolor).

I think it was the surface texture of  the Arches HP that  impressed the viewers I was referring to also.  There are lots of elements of a print that will trump raw dmax.


 
> Regarding the tone of diluted Eboni on Arches you  are obtaining (Carbon-Print-Tones.pdf), they are quite different from my observations. In fact, your Lab-B goes above about 5 in the interval between steps 7 and 13 (from what I can discern from the graph on page 3) while, in my case, that happens in the range of steps 3-7.

In may be printer and profile differences.



> Speaking of tones, one reason why I like so much Magnani Pescia is because of the uniformity of the tones with diluted Eboni: Lab-B ranges between 2.5 and 3.6 everywhere except the two lightest and darkest patches.

I'm not sure I can get that in the US.  I recall you mentioning that before, and I looked for  the paper.  My recollection is  that I failed to find any.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> 
> I'm not sure I can get that in the US.  I recall you mentioning that before, and I looked for  the paper.  My recollection is  that I failed to find any.
> 

As a matter of facts, I first got this paper in the US, during one of my frequent visits. The variety of fine art papers available in you Country is just astonishing and I take advantage of that for new experimets.
I have purchased my first sample of Magnani Pescia (bot hot press and cold press) at Jerry's Artarama. Blick also carries it on shelf.
Now I purchase large quantities directly from the manifacturer, near Florence (Italy).

The cold press version is a bit coarse for my taste, but it has the same d-max as Arches watercolor. The hot press surface is the one I really love, but it has a lower d-max: you need to prepare your file properly when printing. They both take a lot of ink. When coated with the Carbon-gelatine method it becomes a different story.
I like the way Arches watercolor responds in term of contrast; the only minor issue I have wit that is that it is a little too smooth for my taste.
Another paper that has the same d-max as Arches is Magnani Velata, but with a totally different tooth compared to the other papers mentioned above. Unfortunately, it is not 100% cotton. 

Ciao,

  Mantinieri

http://www.mantinieri.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

*big snip*
> 
> I'm not sure I can get that in the US.  I recall you mentioning that before, and I looked for  the paper.  My recollection is  that I failed to find any.
> 
> Paul

Daniel Smith lists the Magnani Pescia in their current catalog. I have not yet check their web site.   Several other Magnani papers as well.  www.danielsmith.com, I think.

Will Clark

Not that I'm going to buy any (it's a bit dear, and I'm not set up to
use it), but isn't this it?

http://www.jerrysartarama.com/discount-art-supplies/Paper/Printmaking-Paper/Magnani-Pescia-Paper/Magnani-Pescia-Sheets.htm

Andrew

On 8/20/2010, "Will" <willclark.clark@...> wrote:

>
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
>*big snip*
>> 
>> I'm not sure I can get that in the US.  I recall you mentioning that before, and I looked for  the paper.  My recollection is  that I failed to find any.
>> 
>> Paul
>
>Daniel Smith lists the Magnani Pescia in their current catalog. I have not yet check their web site.   Several other Magnani papers as well.  www.danielsmith.com, I think.
>
>Will Clark
>
>
>
>

Yes, this is it. Regarding the price, it is in the average of fine art papers. It certainly take more time to tunes curves and the image itself for uncoated papers as compared with inkjet papers. I believe the cold press version only exists in pads.

The catalog they distribute is impressive in terms of different style and manufacturing, including hand made papers. However, only very few are distributed in the US.

   Mantinieri

http://www.mantinieri.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Sharpe" <asharpe@...> wrote:

>
> 
> Not that I'm going to buy any (it's a bit dear, and I'm not set up to
> use it), but isn't this it?
> 
> http://www.jerrysartarama.com/discount-art-supplies/Paper/Printmaking-Paper/Magnani-Pescia-Paper/Magnani-Pescia-Sheets.htm
> 
> Andrew
> 
> On 8/20/2010, "Will" <willclark.clark@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> >*big snip*
> >> 
> >> I'm not sure I can get that in the US.  I recall you mentioning that before, and I looked for  the paper.  My recollection is  that I failed to find any.
> >> 
> >> Paul
> >
> >Daniel Smith lists the Magnani Pescia in their current catalog. I have not yet check their web site.   Several other Magnani papers as well.  www.danielsmith.com, I think.
> >
> >Will Clark
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

"Mantinieri" <mantinieri@...> wrote:
>
> ... 
> Speaking of tones, one reason why I like so much Magnani Pescia is because of the uniformity of the tones with diluted Eboni: Lab-B ranges between 2.5 and 3.6 everywhere except the two lightest and darkest patches.


So, it's looking like this is available here.  What dmax are you getting from it before coating?  I looks like I need to explore this.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

For the hot press version, I get something in the range 1.47-1.51, depending on the paper and ink batch. The cold press version is about 1.53-1.55 and it is has a more consistent behavior. If you like the coarseness of its surface, it has a very nice response in terms of contrast and shadow details. On par, if not better, than Arches watercolor. For comparison, with Arches watercolor I get a d-max in the range of 1.55-1.59. 
The worst sample of HP that I got was from Jerry's Artarama. I ended up using it only as a proofing paper.  Although, it could have been just a bad batch. Blick's quality has been much better, in my opinion.

Both versions take easily 100% ink load from an Epson 7800 with Eboni. I have tried overloading the Eboni adding pure pigment dispersion to it, with no change in d-max.

Ciao,

  Mantinieri 

http://www.mantinieri.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "Mantinieri" <mantinieri@> wrote:
> >
> > ... 
> > Speaking of tones, one reason why I like so much Magnani Pescia is because of the uniformity of the tones with diluted Eboni: Lab-B ranges between 2.5 and 3.6 everywhere except the two lightest and darkest patches.
> 
> 
> So, it's looking like this is available here.  What dmax are you getting from it before coating?  I looks like I need to explore this.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Magnani papers are gorgeous, I tried like crazy to get Incisioni to take platinum decades back, but did not succeed. Todd Gangler is printing tri color carbro on a Magnani, but transfer processes may be less picky then chemical or inkjet.
Good to hear you are having success with Pescia.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mantinieri" <mantinieri@...> wrote:

>
> > 
> > I'm not sure I can get that in the US.  I recall you mentioning that before, and I looked for  the paper.  My recollection is  that I failed to find any.
> > 
> 
> As a matter of facts, I first got this paper in the US, during one of my frequent visits. The variety of fine art papers available in you Country is just astonishing and I take advantage of that for new experimets.
> I have purchased my first sample of Magnani Pescia (bot hot press and cold press) at Jerry's Artarama. Blick also carries it on shelf.
> Now I purchase large quantities directly from the manifacturer, near Florence (Italy).
> 
> The cold press version is a bit coarse for my taste, but it has the same d-max as Arches watercolor. The hot press surface is the one I really love, but it has a lower d-max: you need to prepare your file properly when printing. They both take a lot of ink. When coated with the Carbon-gelatine method it becomes a different story.
> I like the way Arches watercolor responds in term of contrast; the only minor issue I have wit that is that it is a little too smooth for my taste.
> Another paper that has the same d-max as Arches is Magnani Velata, but with a totally different tooth compared to the other papers mentioned above. Unfortunately, it is not 100% cotton. 
> 
> Ciao,
> 
>   Mantinieri
> 
> http://www.mantinieri.com
>

Thanks Tyler. When I decided to switch from wet darkroom to an inkjet based one, about 4 years ago, I tested many fine art papers. I almost immediately embraced Magnani's stuff. Now I use 4 of them: the Pescia HP and CP for printing, the Vergata to protect the print itself during storage or shipping and the Velata for the Certificate of Authenticity. The latter is also wonderful for printing because of its contrast and smoothness of tones, if you like its quite warm tone. Unfortunately, as I already mentioned, it is not 100% rag.
Now I am in the process of peeking a fifth paper for printing a limited edition portfolio book. Magnani is famous for its edition papers which is used for special books. 

I do not chase the ultimate d-max of a paper, but rather good contrast and smoothness of tones, above all in the shadows. Those who appreciate platinum/palladium prints understand what I mean. With Carbon pigments inks, the final print on these papers resemble more etching or charcoal technique. Arches watercolor is also very nice in these respects, but I somehow dislike its surface. 

Printing with uncoated papers is extremely complex: it take a fine tuned combination of ink formulation, ink partitioning, printer setting and image preparation. I never succeeded using the OEM printer driver. 

Ciao,

  Mantinieri

http://www.mantinieri.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> Magnani papers are gorgeous, I tried like crazy to get Incisioni to take platinum decades back, but did not succeed. Todd Gangler is printing tri color carbro on a Magnani, but transfer processes may be less picky then chemical or inkjet.
> Good to hear you are having success with Pescia.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mantinieri" <mantinieri@> wrote:
> >
> > > 
> > > I'm not sure I can get that in the US.  I recall you mentioning that before, and I looked for  the paper.  My recollection is  that I failed to find any.
> > > 
> > 
> > As a matter of facts, I first got this paper in the US, during one of my frequent visits. The variety of fine art papers available in you Country is just astonishing and I take advantage of that for new experimets.
> > I have purchased my first sample of Magnani Pescia (bot hot press and cold press) at Jerry's Artarama. Blick also carries it on shelf.
> > Now I purchase large quantities directly from the manifacturer, near Florence (Italy).
> > 
> > The cold press version is a bit coarse for my taste, but it has the same d-max as Arches watercolor. The hot press surface is the one I really love, but it has a lower d-max: you need to prepare your file properly when printing. They both take a lot of ink. When coated with the Carbon-gelatine method it becomes a different story.
> > I like the way Arches watercolor responds in term of contrast; the only minor issue I have wit that is that it is a little too smooth for my taste.
> > Another paper that has the same d-max as Arches is Magnani Velata, but with a totally different tooth compared to the other papers mentioned above. Unfortunately, it is not 100% cotton. 
> > 
> > Ciao,
> > 
> >   Mantinieri
> > 
> > http://www.mantinieri.com
> >
>

> ... Blick's quality has been much better, in my opinion.

I've found that with most things.  The  majority of Arches sellers (but not Blick) also put an adhesive bar code &/or price sticker on the back that will not come off -- very bad in my opinion.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

another quick comment, don't mean to hijack the thread- I've been doing a fair amount of with with uncoated papers over the years, even recently, and the old standby- Somerset Velvet Radient White- remains a favorite and should not be overlooked for this kind of work. The non white papers are also nice for appropriate projects. For a buff paper, Arches Cover is a favorite.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mantinieri" <mantinieri@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Tyler. When I decided to switch from wet darkroom to an inkjet based one, about 4 years ago, I tested many fine art papers. I almost immediately embraced Magnani's stuff. Now I use 4 of them: the Pescia HP and CP for printing, the Vergata to protect the print itself during storage or shipping and the Velata for the Certificate of Authenticity. The latter is also wonderful for printing because of its contrast and smoothness of tones, if you like its quite warm tone. Unfortunately, as I already mentioned, it is not 100% rag.
> Now I am in the process of peeking a fifth paper for printing a limited edition portfolio book. Magnani is famous for its edition papers which is used for special books. 
> 
> I do not chase the ultimate d-max of a paper, but rather good contrast and smoothness of tones, above all in the shadows. Those who appreciate platinum/palladium prints understand what I mean. With Carbon pigments inks, the final print on these papers resemble more etching or charcoal technique. Arches watercolor is also very nice in these respects, but I somehow dislike its surface. 
> 
> Printing with uncoated papers is extremely complex: it take a fine tuned combination of ink formulation, ink partitioning, printer setting and image preparation. I never succeeded using the OEM printer driver. 
> 
> Ciao,
> 
>   Mantinieri
> 
> http://www.mantinieri.com
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > Magnani papers are gorgeous, I tried like crazy to get Incisioni to take platinum decades back, but did not succeed. Todd Gangler is printing tri color carbro on a Magnani, but transfer processes may be less picky then chemical or inkjet.
> > Good to hear you are having success with Pescia.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mantinieri" <mantinieri@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 
> > > > I'm not sure I can get that in the US.  I recall you mentioning that before, and I looked for  the paper.  My recollection is  that I failed to find any.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > As a matter of facts, I first got this paper in the US, during one of my frequent visits. The variety of fine art papers available in you Country is just astonishing and I take advantage of that for new experimets.
> > > I have purchased my first sample of Magnani Pescia (bot hot press and cold press) at Jerry's Artarama. Blick also carries it on shelf.
> > > Now I purchase large quantities directly from the manifacturer, near Florence (Italy).
> > > 
> > > The cold press version is a bit coarse for my taste, but it has the same d-max as Arches watercolor. The hot press surface is the one I really love, but it has a lower d-max: you need to prepare your file properly when printing. They both take a lot of ink. When coated with the Carbon-gelatine method it becomes a different story.
> > > I like the way Arches watercolor responds in term of contrast; the only minor issue I have wit that is that it is a little too smooth for my taste.
> > > Another paper that has the same d-max as Arches is Magnani Velata, but with a totally different tooth compared to the other papers mentioned above. Unfortunately, it is not 100% cotton. 
> > > 
> > > Ciao,
> > > 
> > >   Mantinieri
> > > 
> > > http://www.mantinieri.com
> > >
> >
>

Another comment. Sometime back it was stated that blacklight showed that the Somerset contained OBAs.I hadn't seen that but wondered about it so I used a monochrometer to illuminate the paper and scanned at about 2 nm uv bandwidths from 330 nm up to near 400 nm.There was no visible florescence over that range.
I've been using from stock that I purchased quite some time ago so maybe something changed in the paper since then?

Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> another quick comment, don't mean to hijack the thread- I've been doing a fair amount of with with uncoated papers over the years, even recently, and the old standby- Somerset Velvet Radient White- remains a favorite and should not be overlooked for this kind of work. The non white papers are also nice for appropriate projects. For a buff paper, Arches Cover is a favorite.
> Tyler
> 
>

could be, I'm also working from old stock. Since it's uncoated it's possible there is some OB in the paper itself for batch consistency, not uncommon and would therefore vary per batch.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:

>
> Another comment. Sometime back it was stated that blacklight showed that the Somerset contained OBAs.I hadn't seen that but wondered about it so I used a monochrometer to illuminate the paper and scanned at about 2 nm uv bandwidths from 330 nm up to near 400 nm.There was no visible florescence over that range.
> I've been using from stock that I purchased quite some time ago so maybe something changed in the paper since then?
> 
> Duane
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > another quick comment, don't mean to hijack the thread- I've been doing a fair amount of with with uncoated papers over the years, even recently, and the old standby- Somerset Velvet Radient White- remains a favorite and should not be overlooked for this kind of work. The non white papers are also nice for appropriate projects. For a buff paper, Arches Cover is a favorite.
> > Tyler
> > 
> >
>