Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

OT but your help is requested

OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by paulekohl

This is a small thing but I would appreciate anyone with knowledge who could chime in with info:
I recently spent some time in Budapest on an artist residency. I had decided that I would try and use local film to photograph there. I found this film called Fomopan 100 (645). I bought a bunch of it and now, back home in Singapore, am developing it using TFX 2, Formulary's interesting developer I have been using for several years.
Okay, the question: the film is blue! the film base has a decided blue cast. Is it something I am doing? Some odd chemical twist? I am scanning it and it doesn't seem to affect anything. I have printed some big contact prints and they seem good but the color is so weird!
If anyone can enlighten me about this I would appreciate it.
Paul Kohl

Re: [Digital BW] OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by David Kachel

On Sep 17, 2010, at 8:18 PM, paulekohl wrote:

> This is a small thing but I would appreciate anyone with knowledge who could chime in with info:
> I recently spent some time in Budapest on an artist residency. I had decided that I would try and use local film to photograph there. I found this film called Fomopan 100 (645). I bought a bunch of it and now, back home in Singapore, am developing it using TFX 2, Formulary's interesting developer I have been using for several years.
> Okay, the question: the film is blue! the film base has a decided blue cast. Is it something I am doing? Some odd chemical twist? I am scanning it and it doesn't seem to affect anything. I have printed some big contact prints and they seem good but the color is so weird!
> If anyone can enlighten me about this I would appreciate it.

One of two things is going on:

1. Inadequate fixation. Fix longer, agitate more. Eastern Block films tend to be older technology, thicker emulsions, longer fixing times.
2. Anti-halation dye isn't clearing. Usually due to inadequate fixing, but... If you fix the stuffing out of it with fresh fixer and the blue still remains, soak for 5-10 minutes in a 10% solution of sodium sulphite to clear the dye, then rewash.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by David Kachel

On Sep 17, 2010, at 8:28 PM, David Kachel wrote:

> One of two things is going on:
> 
> 1. Inadequate fixation. Fix longer, agitate more. Eastern Block films tend to be older technology, thicker emulsions, longer fixing times.
> 2. Anti-halation dye isn't clearing. Usually due to inadequate fixing, but... If you fix the stuffing out of it with fresh fixer and the blue still remains, soak for 5-10 minutes in a 10% solution of sodium sulphite to clear the dye, then rewash.

I forgot to mention; if you are using variable contrast paper, the blue cast will tend to slightly affect paper contrast. With graded papers it should make no difference.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by Richard Sintchak

It has a blue base.  Lots info on this film, search Google.  Not bad but grainy for the speed.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2010, at 6:18 PM, "paulekohl" <pkohl@...> wrote:

> This is a small thing but I would appreciate anyone with knowledge who could chime in with info:
> I recently spent some time in Budapest on an artist residency. I had decided that I would try and use local film to photograph there. I found this film called Fomopan 100 (645). I bought a bunch of it and now, back home in Singapore, am developing it using TFX 2, Formulary's interesting developer I have been using for several years.
> Okay, the question: the film is blue! the film base has a decided blue cast. Is it something I am doing? Some odd chemical twist? I am scanning it and it doesn't seem to affect anything. I have printed some big contact prints and they seem good but the color is so weird!
> If anyone can enlighten me about this I would appreciate it.
> Paul Kohl
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by Richard Sintchak

Oh, and if you search, search Fomapan not Fomopan.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2010, at 6:18 PM, "paulekohl" <pkohl@...> wrote:

> This is a small thing but I would appreciate anyone with knowledge who could chime in with info:
> I recently spent some time in Budapest on an artist residency. I had decided that I would try and use local film to photograph there. I found this film called Fomopan 100 (645). I bought a bunch of it and now, back home in Singapore, am developing it using TFX 2, Formulary's interesting developer I have been using for several years.
> Okay, the question: the film is blue! the film base has a decided blue cast. Is it something I am doing? Some odd chemical twist? I am scanning it and it doesn't seem to affect anything. I have printed some big contact prints and they seem good but the color is so weird!
> If anyone can enlighten me about this I would appreciate it.
> Paul Kohl
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by photogirl

I used this film a lot when I lived in Prague and I had it professionally developed there, because I didn't have the equipment to do it myself. The blue base is the film itself. Not a bad film, but too grainy for my taste.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Sintchak <rich815@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Oh, and if you search, search Fomapan not Fomopan.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 17, 2010, at 6:18 PM, "paulekohl" <pkohl@...> wrote:
> 
> > This is a small thing but I would appreciate anyone with knowledge who could chime in with info:
> > I recently spent some time in Budapest on an artist residency. I had decided that I would try and use local film to photograph there. I found this film called Fomopan 100 (645). I bought a bunch of it and now, back home in Singapore, am developing it using TFX 2, Formulary's interesting developer I have been using for several years.
> > Okay, the question: the film is blue! the film base has a decided blue cast. Is it something I am doing? Some odd chemical twist? I am scanning it and it doesn't seem to affect anything. I have printed some big contact prints and they seem good but the color is so weird!
> > If anyone can enlighten me about this I would appreciate it.
> > Paul Kohl
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by Clayton Price

Paul -
If I were you I'd be very careful about messing too much with the chemistry.  David's advice about "fixing the stuffing out of it..." is not even close to a
good idea, because it's very easy to start loosing shadow details in a negative from too strong or long fixing.  You mentioned that the test prints
look good in spite of the blue base color. Why worry about it then?  You may know or remember that there were developers that stained the film 
base - Pyro Developer for example, stains the base greenish/sepia, but the negative and print quality from it can be magnificent.  
Film base color may cause a little adjustment in contrast settings for variable contrast papers, but that's easily corrected. If you find your Eastern European
film base unstable, the safest solution would be to make  good quality scans of your best shots,  before bleaching (which is what extra fixation would do)
or otherwise altering the chemistry! The sodium sulphite might help, even tho I personally never ran into a blue anti-halation coating in over 50 years of
working with B&W films.  In any event, use a negative you don't need for your tests.

Let us know what happens.

Best,
Clayton Price


<david kachel wrote:
<One of two things is going on:

<1. Inadequate fixation. Fix longer, agitate more. Eastern Block films tend to be older technology, thicker emulsions, longer fixing times.
<2. Anti-halation dye isn't clearing. Usually due to inadequate fixing, but... If you fix the stuffing out of it with fresh fixer and the blue still remains, <soak for 5-10 minutes in a 10% solution of sodium sulphite to clear the dye, then rewash.

David Kachel


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by David Kachel

On Sep 18, 2010, at 11:42 AM, Clayton Price wrote:

> If I were you I'd be very careful about messing too much with the chemistry. David's advice about "fixing the stuffing out of it..." is not even close to a
> good idea, because it's very easy to start loosing shadow details in a negative from too strong or long fixing.

This advice is nonsense. No such thing can happen unless you use a far too highly concentrated rapid fix for a ridiculous amount of time and even then, you would probably have to heat it.

I know what I am talking about. Refix your film for twice your normal fixing time in fresh fixer (you should really use a two bath fixing scheme) with substantial agitation. (The only thing overfixation can really do is cause unnecessarily long wash times but with film, this means little if your washing technique is good to begin with. If in doubt, double your wash time.) If the discoloration is still there, use the 10% sodium sulphite solution. Ten minutes should do it, but you can safely leave your film in the sodium sulphite till Tuesday. The emulsion will slide off the film base due to too long exposure to water before the sodium sulphite can hurt it.

To make this more clear... the reason to refix your film instead of just using sodium sulphite is that the anti-halation dye should be removed at about the same rate as the film is fixed. (That is the theory.) So if you still have anti-halation dye, you probably also still have inadequately fixed film. However, I have seen early T-max films cling tenaciously to their anti-halation dye after far more than adequate fixation, thus requiring additional Rx in sodium sulphite.

Eastern European film stocks are not "unstable". They are simply made using older technologies that result in larger grain and perhaps a bit less resolution. Mr. Price may not have seen blue anti-halation coloring but I have. Some film bases do have a slight coloration to them but it is very subtle. A stronger color, what in many cases people "think" is the "natural color" of their film base is the result of the fact they have never in their lives properly processed a roll of film and therefore they believe their film base has a color it does not really have!

If after refixing and sodium sulphite Rx you still have the heavy blue color, it is safe to assume the film  base itself is a substandard material and the color is there forever. Not unstable, just substandard. Scan your negatives if you need scans. Otherwise, don't waste your time.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] OT but your help is requested

2010-09-18 by E.Neilsen

Paul, what are you using as a stop? indicator or plain water?  Sodium
sulfite along with edta tetra sodium or metabisulfite can help your wash. I
have seen times where the  soak in a clearing agent solved the issue with
color being left in the film; all other things being equal. 

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1

Let's Talk Photography

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paulekohl
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 8:18 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] OT but your help is requested

 

  

This is a small thing but I would appreciate anyone with knowledge who could
chime in with info:
I recently spent some time in Budapest on an artist residency. I had decided
that I would try and use local film to photograph there. I found this film
called Fomopan 100 (645). I bought a bunch of it and now, back home in
Singapore, am developing it using TFX 2, Formulary's interesting developer I
have been using for several years.
Okay, the question: the film is blue! the film base has a decided blue cast.
Is it something I am doing? Some odd chemical twist? I am scanning it and it
doesn't seem to affect anything. I have printed some big contact prints and
they seem good but the color is so weird!
If anyone can enlighten me about this I would appreciate it.
Paul Kohl





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-19 by ebenostby

I use fomapan all the time. The base is indeed blue and can't be bleached or fixed out. "It's a feature, not a bug".

RE: [Digital BW] Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-19 by Mike Kirwan

I heartily concur. I have used this film for years and the blue base is
indeed a feature
 
Mike

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ebenostby
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 8:54 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: OT but your help is requested


  



I use fomapan all the time. The base is indeed blue and can't be bleached or
fixed out. "It's a feature, not a bug".




 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-20 by Paul Kohl

Well, I have now developed several rolls of the Fomapan 100 and there 
is no getting around it: the blue base is for keeps. I have tried 
lots of things to get rid of it but nothing happens...so, it is a 
"feature not a bug."
I do like the tonal quality of the negatives. It is curly as Julia 
Roberts' hair but perhaps that's a feature too. No matter what, I 
shot a whole bunch of this film when I was in Budapest so what a got 
is what I got...truth be told, that is why I shoot film. If I wanted 
everything to be completely predictable there is always digital...
Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions.
Paul
-- 
Paul Kohl
Visiting Professor, Photography
Nanyang Technological University
Singapore

Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-20 by Mantinieri

To my knowledge, it is sodium sulphite (contained in commercial fixing to prolong shelf life) rather than sodium thiosulphate that wears out the unexposed silver when using too strong fixing or too long fixing times. Therefore, soaking the film in a pure sodium thiosulphate solution (240 gr/l).
As a matter of fact, pure thiosulphate is what I use for fixing in order to maximize shadow details and acutance of my film. When performed adequately, it is perfectly able to dissolve the anti-halation layers of the film I use, even the t-grain versions (Fomapan is not among them). Of course, it is a 1-shoot bath.

Ciao,
   Mantinieri

www.mantinieri.com

  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "paulekohl" <pkohl@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> This is a small thing but I would appreciate anyone with knowledge who could chime in with info:
> I recently spent some time in Budapest on an artist residency. I had decided that I would try and use local film to photograph there. I found this film called Fomopan 100 (645). I bought a bunch of it and now, back home in Singapore, am developing it using TFX 2, Formulary's interesting developer I have been using for several years.
> Okay, the question: the film is blue! the film base has a decided blue cast. Is it something I am doing? Some odd chemical twist? I am scanning it and it doesn't seem to affect anything. I have printed some big contact prints and they seem good but the color is so weird!
> If anyone can enlighten me about this I would appreciate it.
> Paul Kohl
>

Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-21 by Clayton Price

Hi Mantinieri -
In reading your message below, something didn't sound quite correct,  
so I looked up processing formulae in
my father's Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c 1936). It was  
amazing to find almost all of the modern developing and
fixing methods listed that far back, including 3 or 4 Pyro solutions.  
It seems that potassium bromide, and sodium sulfate was used in  
almost every
developer, both to limit over development and often to increase  
emulsion sensitivity. It was also used in many fixer formulae,
but not to increase shelf life, since in those days, all the  
photographic chemistry was mixed from raw ingredients. Rather, the  
sodium
sulfate, as much as I can figure, helped to control the pH of the  
fixer (which needs to remain acidic). Traces of developer
get into it, as all developers are alkaline. This increased the life  
of the fixers considerably.

Fixers with emulsion hardeners always contain chrome alum or some  
other compounds as the hardening ingredient, as well as both sodium  
sulfate and sodium bisulfate, also to buffer the acidity . But  
virtually all the fixers use Sodium Thiosulfate as the active  
ingredient to clear the
film down to the silver image. It seems logical, but not conclusive,  
in my mind, that the anti-halation coating is made soluble during
the development stage, and is then dissolved away in the fixer -  
whether thiosulfate alone or with hardener added.

I believe you are mistaken about sodium sulfate being the ingredient  
that removed some of the silver, since it's found in both the developers
and fixers. However one could find out easily enough by an experiment  
using both types of fixer solutions. With my darkroom and chemistry
about ten years gone, you'll have to be the one to do the test:-))).  
Let us know!

An interesting aside to some of this info is that, years ago, I read  
about some household chemicals like cleaning supplies,
Clorox beach, vinegar (for stop bath), baking soda, and other items  
to develop film in emergency situations, where standard chemistry
wasn't available. (it may have be published during WWII). One wonders  
what was used in place of the developing agents like Metol, Elon,
Hydroquinone. Most are very toxic, but quinone was used in medicines  
(for Maleria?) and some mixed drinks I think:-). Anyway, there's a  
huge world
of chemistry all around us, to which we seldom pay much attention.

Clay Price



  "Mantinieri" mantinieri@... wrote:

 >>>To my knowledge, it is sodium sulphite (contained in commercial  
fixing to prolong shelf life) rather than sodium thiosulfate that  
wears out the unexposed silver when using too strong fixing or too  
long fixing times. Therefore, soaking the film in a pure sodium  
thiosulfate solution (240 gr/l).
As a matter of fact, pure thiosulfate is what I use for fixing in  
order to maximize shadow details and acutance of my film. When  
performed adequately, it is perfectly able to dissolve the anti- 
halation layers of the film I use, even the t-grain versions (Fomapan  
is not among them). Of course, it is a 1-shoot bath.>>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-22 by Tony Sleep

On 21/09/2010 Clayton Price wrote:
> I believe you are mistaken about sodium sulfate being the ingredient
> that removed some of the silver, since it's found in both the 
> developers
> and fixers

Silver sulphite (not sulphate, unused in B&W AFAICR) is a silver solvent 
especially used in fine-grain developers to restrain grain clumping. 
Potassium bromide is a restrainer, used to restrain fog arising through 
dev of unexposed silver.

Used together in the correct balance they have a complementary action, 
with bromide allowing development to proceed further (realising better 
speed/sensitivity from the material) without undue fog, and sulphite 
restraining graininess by dissolving some of the image silver as it is 
formed by dev. Add local exhaustion of diluted dev in developed areas and 
you got compensation (progessive compression of highlights, in negs) and 
also adjacency effects that enhanced apparent sharpness.

I quite often added both to HC110 to soften its rather gritty grain.

Sulphite + KBr in print devs was a good part of the reason for the nasty 
olive green tinge and mediocre DMax that many papers produced after 
environmental concerns and the Bunker Hunt swindle reduced silver content.

Sulphite will attack image silver with a bleaching action, if given long 
enough. You're correct its presence in fixer was to maintain acidity, but 
it also meant fixing had to be as brief as was necessary to clear 
undeveloped halide, before it started munching away at print highlights.

Now back to the dratted SATA problems I'm having, which are not so much fun...
-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

[Digital BW] Re: OT but your help is requested

2010-09-22 by Mantinieri

Yes, Tony is right about Sodium sulphite (or sulfite in the US). Most of the concern of its solvent action regards the developer, where it is usually more concentrate. However, its bleaching action occurs also in the fixing step. If you use an intermediate bath between developer and fixer to minimize carry on of the former into the latter, you dont need to worry about Ph of the solution. Sodium thiosulphate is a salt, rather than an acid as the sulphite, and it will not attack unexposed silver, no matter how long you keep the film in it. 

Ciao,

   Mantinieri

www.mantinieri.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 21/09/2010 Clayton Price wrote:
> > I believe you are mistaken about sodium sulfate being the ingredient
> > that removed some of the silver, since it's found in both the 
> > developers
> > and fixers
> 
> Silver sulphite (not sulphate, unused in B&W AFAICR) is a silver solvent 
> especially used in fine-grain developers to restrain grain clumping. 
> Potassium bromide is a restrainer, used to restrain fog arising through 
> dev of unexposed silver.
> 
> Used together in the correct balance they have a complementary action, 
> with bromide allowing development to proceed further (realising better 
> speed/sensitivity from the material) without undue fog, and sulphite 
> restraining graininess by dissolving some of the image silver as it is 
> formed by dev. Add local exhaustion of diluted dev in developed areas and 
> you got compensation (progessive compression of highlights, in negs) and 
> also adjacency effects that enhanced apparent sharpness.
> 
> I quite often added both to HC110 to soften its rather gritty grain.
> 
> Sulphite + KBr in print devs was a good part of the reason for the nasty 
> olive green tinge and mediocre DMax that many papers produced after 
> environmental concerns and the Bunker Hunt swindle reduced silver content.
> 
> Sulphite will attack image silver with a bleaching action, if given long 
> enough. You're correct its presence in fixer was to maintain acidity, but 
> it also meant fixing had to be as brief as was necessary to clear 
> undeveloped halide, before it started munching away at print highlights.
> 
> Now back to the dratted SATA problems I'm having, which are not so much fun...
> -- 
> Regards
> 
> Tony Sleep
> http://tonysleep.co.uk
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.