Digital BW, The Print

I've found the 2:1 dilution of HP PK with MIS glop (33% PK, 67% Glop) at 100% with QTR has a higher dmax than the 100% HP PK, no bronzing, and no more overnight dry-down than the 100% HP PK.  On Canson Baryta, the next day 33% HP/67% Glop is at 2.49 density, and best 100% HP PK, using a boost to 80% with QTR, is at 2.3. There is a visible difference.  Both approaches look very good; the dilute HP PK looks a bit better.

If the Epson driver is used, the 100% HP PK hits a higher dmax.  It's the ability to have a very high ink limit that allows the HP + GO to do so well.

The numbers suggest to me that a 1:1 mix may be even better.  I'll give that a try soon.

The 33% HP + GO on Red River Metallic comes the closest to the look of the dyes that I've seen from a pigment.  Still, however, the surface of the card is different.  With the pigs you can tell they are sitting on top of the paper.  There is a bit of a gloss differential with the pigs.  The very high ink limit blacks have a glossier look than the middle values.  On the other hand, no metamerism with the HP + GO gives that approach an advantage with fluorescent lights.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 05/29/2011 05:32 PM, Paul wrote:
> I've found the 2:1 dilution of HP PK with MIS glop (33% PK, 67% Glop)
> at 100% with QTR has a higher dmax than the 100% HP PK, no bronzing,
> and no more overnight dry-down than the 100% HP PK.  On Canson
> Baryta, the next day 33% HP/67% Glop is at 2.49 density, and best
> 100% HP PK, using a boost to 80% with QTR, is at 2.3. There is a
> visible difference.  Both approaches look very good; the dilute HP PK
> looks a bit better.
>
> If the Epson driver is used, the 100% HP PK hits a higher dmax.  It's
> the ability to have a very high ink limit that allows the HP + GO to
> do so well.
>
> The numbers suggest to me that a 1:1 mix may be even better.  I'll
> give that a try soon.
>
> The 33% HP + GO on Red River Metallic comes the closest to the look
> of the dyes that I've seen from a pigment.  Still, however, the
> surface of the card is different.  With the pigs you can tell they
> are sitting on top of the paper.  There is a bit of a gloss
> differential with the pigs.  The very high ink limit blacks have a
> glossier look than the middle values.  On the other hand, no
> metamerism with the HP + GO gives that approach an advantage with
> fluorescent lights.
>
> Paul www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

You already answered some questions I had in relation to the HP Vivera 
quad mixes and Claria quads. If price is also considered then the HP 
(diluted PK) quad becomes even cheaper than the Claria quad. But 
printing on matt papers is not delivering a decent black with PK. So 
less versatile. For duplex printing, book creation, I guess the Claria 
solution delivers less issues when pages are in contact with one 
another. Any thoughts on that?

Is the effect of a higher Dmax by diluting the PK (even to 1:1) plus a 
higher ink limit, not described with what a black dye ink does, 
penetrating the coating deeper, not reflecting the light at the surface 
and by that creating a better light trap? A better gloss may help then 
too. If so it might give a better Dmax on matte papers too than the 
standard PK. I also wonder whether the changes you made to the Vivera PK 
with GO have an effect on the fade resistance.

Some differences I found between the B&W output of the Z3200 and Z3100 
could be explained if the Z3200 lays down too much PK. I have to check 
that again.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

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Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> On 05/29/2011 05:32 PM, Paul wrote:
> > I've found the 2:1 dilution of HP PK with MIS glop 
> > (33% PK, 67% Glop) at 100% with QTR has a higher dmax 
> > than the 100% HP PK, no bronzing,...
> >

 
> ... If price is also considered then the HP 
> (diluted PK) quad becomes even cheaper than the Claria quad. 

> But printing on matt papers is not delivering a decent 
> black with PK. So less versatile.

The dyes on matte are not much to brag about. I see dye's advantages limited to glossy with the 2 exceptions I know of that hit very high dmax -- Photo Rag and a Red River matte paper.  Photo Rag prints too greenish with the 13% magenta blend (and I no longer have the full 26% magenta loaded), so the Red River is it for my matte printing recommendations.  Dyes are for high gloss cards & brochures only for me.  This HP-Glop combo is much more flexible -- better for display and not quite as dramatic for cards.

I'd plan on using Eboni MK with the HP PK/Glop inks.  The 7800 is, for example, headed for a "Dual Quad" - Eb-4 & HP/GO (the exact densities not as clear as I thought now).  But, Eboni will be there for the MK.


> For duplex printing, book creation, I guess the Claria 
> solution delivers less issues when pages are in contact with one 
> another. Any thoughts on that?

I think you're right.  I don't have that much experience with it.  The carbon pigment book makers have had some rub off issues.


> Is the effect of a higher Dmax by diluting the PK (even to 1:1) 
> plus a higher ink limit, not described with what a black dye 
> ink does, penetrating the coating deeper, not reflecting the 
> light at the surface and by that creating a better light trap? 

I'm not sure what all the factors are.  One pattern is that more dilute inks allow for a higher ink load.  I'm guessing this is, in part, a paper penetration issue.  The coating does appear to help the gloss, so that is probably also a factor.

It's interesting that we're apparently getting more black per pigment load also.  At 100% ink limit in QTR the 33% PK is blacker than the OEM 100% PK at 80% ink limit.  

The bottom line that is rather interesting is that with QTR or other rip, we might be able to fine tune the PK/Glop mix to optimize a paper-printer combo.  

The main thing I've been keeping my eye out for is an MIS Gloss Optimizer incompatibility with HP PK.  Usually reactions will take place quickly.  So far, I've seen no evidence of a problem.  

I'm hopeful that, with commercially available bottles, those so inclined will have some interesting flexibility here to improve the image as well as save money.  I like that combination of attributes.

Note that this ink in a hextone with Eboni-4 makes for more neutral matte printing even with the Epson driver that is, stability wise, second only to 100% carbon -- the best more neutral matte as far as I can tell.

>... I also wonder whether the changes you made to the Vivera PK 
> with GO have an effect on the fade resistance.

Obviously this approach has not been tested by Aardenburg-Imaging.  However, the use of glop as a cover on pigments seems to just slightly increase their fade resistance -- nothing dramatic, not as good as a spray.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> I've found the 2:1 dilution of HP PK with MIS glop (33% PK, 67% Glop) at 100% with QTR has a higher dmax than the 100% HP PK, no bronzing, and no more overnight dry-down than the 100% HP PK.  On Canson Baryta, the next day 33% HP/67% Glop is at 2.49 density, and best 100% HP PK, using a boost to 80% with QTR, is at 2.3. ...

> The numbers suggest to me that a 1:1 mix may be even better. ...


The 1:1 dilution of HP Z3100 PK with MIS Gloss Optimizer resulted in a next day Canson Baryta dmax of 2.56.  There is no visual difference between the 50% and 33% dilutions on Canson, but on Red River Metallic the 1:1 hits 2.56 at 65%. As such there is not the heavy build up of ink on the surface, so on the metallic it looks better.  The dyes still look better on the Red River Metallic.

I did not change the "light" ink from the 1:2 mix.  It's interesting that in a QTR profile that used/partitioned the 33% and 50% dilutions, with an ink limit of 55 for both, black boost to 65, the pre-linearized Lab L was close to a straight line.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

This is fascinating Paul. It will be really interesting to see which HP PK /
MIS glop dilution you end up settling on.

Thanks for sharing your research.

Terry.

On 11-05-30 8:55 AM, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>> > I've found the 2:1 dilution of HP PK with MIS glop (33% PK, 67% Glop) at
>> 100% with QTR has a higher dmax than the 100% HP PK, no bronzing, and no more
>> overnight dry-down than the 100% HP PK.  On Canson Baryta, the next day 33%
>> HP/67% Glop is at 2.49 density, and best 100% HP PK, using a boost to 80%
>> with QTR, is at 2.3. ...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:
>
> ...It will be really interesting to see which HP PK /
> MIS glop dilution you end up settling on.

> "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
> > I've found the 2:1 dilution of HP PK with MIS glop 
> > (33% PK, 67% Glop) ... has a higher dmax than the 100% HP PK, ...


So far, I'm still targeting my 1100 HpGO setup, with the caveat that I'll use HP PK and not MIS PK. (These is nothing at all wrong with MIS PK, it's excellent warm carbon.  However, I want the same neutral-cool glossy pigment type in the printer.)

In the 1100 I have 2 LK-density positions (2 parts glop to 1 part HP PK).  There is also an LLK (33% LK).  So the HP-Glop "Quad" half of the "Dual Quad" setup will be 1 PK, 2 LKs and 1 LLK.  This keeps the setup more consistent with existing, pre-mixed (HP and other) inks.  It gives me 2 LKs to play with and optimize the dmax where appropriate.  The one LLK gives me the totally smooth, dot-free highlights, and the PK allows me to produce a drier 100% black where needed.

With the 1400 I did run into a downside of using more dilute LK to achieve a better dmax.  The wetter blacks are more prone to pizza wheel marks.  

On the 7800 that should not be a problem, but the ability to control the final 100% black net dilution by selecting a blend of Lk and Pk via software (QTR) seems like a more flexible approach than doing it in a fixed ink mix. 

Using relatively standardized ink densities (PK, LK, LLK) is part of a theme of mine.  I want competitive inputs.  You'll notice the "EZ" 1100 uses just an LK and PK -- any you might want to try.  Likewise with the 1400 "Eboni-4 Plus," the 2 additional inks are LK and PK.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com