Digital BW, The Print

Hello

Are fixative sprays made to protect charcoal drawings could work for mat b&w prints (Eboni carbon inks) ?

exemple : http://www.artquid.com/materiel/fixatif-conte-a-paris-m29195.html

These are less expensive than hanhemuhle sprays ...

any thoughts appreciated

thanks

I use Premier Arr PrintShield myself... been very happy with it.

http://www.inkjetart.com/cart/protective-coatings-premierart-print-shield-c-823_824_825.html

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@...> wrote:

>
> Hello
> 
> Are fixative sprays made to protect charcoal drawings could work for mat b&w prints (Eboni carbon inks) ?
> 
> exemple : http://www.artquid.com/materiel/fixatif-conte-a-paris-m29195.html
> 
> These are less expensive than hanhemuhle sprays ...
> 
> any thoughts appreciated
> 
> thanks
>

Hey,,
.. As far as your charcoal drawings go many have been using hairspray on them  for years .. but all that does is stop folks from smudging them.  The art sprays offer a protective coating plus UV protection along with possessing archival properties of sorts.. The coatings we use here are designed to work with ink jet inks on inkjet receptor coated media.. Regarding your question  ...to really answer it you'd have to have some test results I would think or find out from the manufacturer if the material is appropriate.. personally I wouldn't fool with it unless you knew for sure it delivered the long term results the proper coating did. If you trying to save costs .. look into purchasing the material in quarts or gallons not spray bombs.. while you may have an investment in equipment the end cost savings is huge.

jimbo

 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 

  Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 3:55 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] fixative


    
  Hello

  Are fixative sprays made to protect charcoal drawings could work for mat b&w prints (Eboni carbon inks) ?

  exemple : http://www.artquid.com/materiel/fixatif-conte-a-paris-m29195.html

  These are less expensive than hanhemuhle sprays ...

  any thoughts appreciated

  thanks



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd love to know that too. I work at Utrecht Art Supplies and we carry several - Krylon's UV Clear Spray was something I considered as well. Could they work just as well?

AnnMarie

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@...> wrote:

>
> Hello
> 
> Are fixative sprays made to protect charcoal drawings could work for mat b&w prints (Eboni carbon inks) ?
> 
> exemple : http://www.artquid.com/materiel/fixatif-conte-a-paris-m29195.html
> 
> These are less expensive than hanhemuhle sprays ...
> 
> any thoughts appreciated
> 
> thanks
>

I use Lascaux Fixativ, if anything, for Eboni.  It has the least impact on the image. I don't think 100% carbon needs a UV coating.  I believe a tried one of those charcoal products and found it did lower dmax and raise Lab B more.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@...> wrote:

>
> Hello
> 
> Are fixative sprays made to protect charcoal drawings could work for mat b&w prints (Eboni carbon inks) ?
> 
> exemple : http://www.artquid.com/materiel/fixatif-conte-a-paris-m29195.html
> 
> These are less expensive than hanhemuhle sprays ...
> 
> any thoughts appreciated
> 
> thanks
>

I use the Krylon UV spray quite a bit. It has a very nominal effect on measured D'max but does raise the Lab B a bit. The Lab B increase is very paper dependent since the coating acts to block UV and thus disables activation of OBAs in brightened papers, making them revert to their native whites.
I've used very heavy coats of it and/or the normal non UV spray on instrument panel artwork as a protective coating that works very well.
I have no idea what the long term prospects are for the Krylon itself as far as yellowing might go.

Regards,
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "faeofavalon" <faeofavalon@...> wrote:

>
> I'd love to know that too. I work at Utrecht Art Supplies and we carry several - Krylon's UV Clear Spray was something I considered as well. Could they work just as well?
> 
> AnnMarie
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
> > 
> > Are fixative sprays made to protect charcoal drawings could work for mat b&w prints (Eboni carbon inks) ?
> > 
> > exemple : http://www.artquid.com/materiel/fixatif-conte-a-paris-m29195.html
> > 
> > These are less expensive than hanhemuhle sprays ...
> > 
> > any thoughts appreciated
> > 
> > thanks
> >
>

I use the Krylon UV spray quite a bit. It has a very nominal effect on measured D'max but does raise the Lab B a bit. The Lab B increase is very paper dependent since the coating acts to block UV and thus disables activation of OBAs in brightened papers, making them revert to their native whites.
I've used very heavy coats of it and/or the normal non UV spray on instrument panel artwork as a protective coating that works very well.
I have no idea what the long term prospects are for the Krylon itself as far as yellowing might go.

Regards,
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "faeofavalon" <faeofavalon@...> wrote:

>
> I'd love to know that too. I work at Utrecht Art Supplies and we carry several - Krylon's UV Clear Spray was something I considered as well. Could they work just as well?
> 
> AnnMarie
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
> > 
> > Are fixative sprays made to protect charcoal drawings could work for mat b&w prints (Eboni carbon inks) ?
> > 
> > exemple : http://www.artquid.com/materiel/fixatif-conte-a-paris-m29195.html
> > 
> > These are less expensive than hanhemuhle sprays ...
> > 
> > any thoughts appreciated
> > 
> > thanks
> >
>

Do we have any chemists in the group?  

The photographic "fixatives" may very well be, at most, slight tweaks on common coatings.

I have often wondered whether there are any meaningful chemical differences between a pricey gloss or matte "art" varnish and a top quality product made for floors or furniture.  There are very few types of clear coatings, and they have been well understood for years.  My wild guess is that there is not a large enough "art market" to justify wholly distinct formulas and manufacturing, although I would imagine that manufacturers can easily tweak formula runs for special purposes.

Myron

Paul - 

I was referring not just to carbon prints but to K3 ink prints as well. We carry the Lascaux Fixativ as well but the price is more than the Hahnemuhle. I am using the latter myself right now with my K3 prints.

Hairspray is not archival and I would never recommend a workable fixative but I may ask Krylon about their UV spray...

AnnMarie

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I use Lascaux Fixativ, if anything, for Eboni.  It has the least impact on the image. I don't think 100% carbon needs a UV coating.  I believe a tried one of those charcoal products and found it did lower dmax and raise Lab B more.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
> > 
> > Are fixative sprays made to protect charcoal drawings could work for mat b&w prints (Eboni carbon inks) ?
> > 
> > exemple : http://www.artquid.com/materiel/fixatif-conte-a-paris-m29195.html
> > 
> > These are less expensive than hanhemuhle sprays ...
> > 
> > any thoughts appreciated
> > 
> > thanks
> >
>

I'm not a chemist, but I do know an industrial chemist and can converse easily with him about chemistry.

Here's a curious one for you all, I received some left over concrete sealer, which is 70% Xylene solvent acrylic lacquer.

The high quantity of solvent is to aid penetration into the pores of the concrete to seal it, rather than just a top coat that can wear exposing the pores.

Breathing apparatus and skin protection is essential with it's use.

Xylene used to be the solvent in some permanent markers, some now specify Xylene free.

It's by far the best timber lacquer I have used, but is difficult to attain a perfect finish spraying or brushing.
It dries to a full gloss finish on timber.
It also lists UV protection as one of it's qualities.
I haven't done a test to check for yellowing over time.

That gives some background

I tried spraying it onto a print to see if the Xylene solvent would disturb or react with the ink, in this case dye.
No issues whatsoever.

I went so far as to saturate one section of the print, which was on Arches cold press 300GSM, till the lacquer was visible through the back of the paper.
Again no issues.

At the time I didn't have a spectrometer to measure if there was any discernable density change, but I may be able to do some tests on a greyscale separation early next year.

Now the good part, it's $70Aud for 20 litres. That's a lot to use, actually too much, but if you do the garden path or driveway, keep some spare to try.
However I'd also suggest auto lacquer, which is used for scratch and UV protection over metallic and pearl finishes, would be an excellent choice for some tests.

A slight variation on clear auto lacquer has been used in the surfboard industry for decades. It's a clear final coat with a matte finish, which is just auto finish with a gloss inhibitor = matte finish.

Clear Auto finishes are usually available in pressure packs for those without spray equipment. Also some auto paint suppliers can load individual pressure packs for anyone after a gloss inhibited, matte finish.

If you really want to know the chemical composition of what you're currently using - locate the MSDS (material data safety sheet). Sometimes individual elements are just listed by CAS# in an attempt at concealment. Just research the listed CAS# instead.

peace out

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Myron Gochnauer <goch@...> wrote:

>
> Do we have any chemists in the group?  
> 
> The photographic "fixatives" may very well be, at most, slight tweaks on common coatings.
> 
> I have often wondered whether there are any meaningful chemical differences between a pricey gloss or matte "art" varnish and a top quality product made for floors or furniture.  There are very few types of clear coatings, and they have been well understood for years.  My wild guess is that there is not a large enough "art market" to justify wholly distinct formulas and manufacturing, although I would imagine that manufacturers can easily tweak formula runs for special purposes.
> 
> Myron
>

Clear automotive lacquers were used by photographers all the way back into the 50s, at least, for coating C-prints. The matting agent was usually a flour like silica added to it to get a suitable matt finish.

When properly done, it did help protect prints but it was absolutely needed if prints were to be framed directly against glass.
However, I saw, and made restorations of, many examples where it was not a good job and prints faded unevenly where the coating was inadequate.
Of course in those days they all faded badly over time anyway, even if more slowly and evenly when coating was well done.That problem had disastrous consequences for many small studios at the time.

Regards,
Duane

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn" <glennrbarry@...> wrote:

>
> I'm not a chemist, but I do know an industrial chemist and can converse easily with him about chemistry.
> 
> Here's a curious one for you all, I received some left over concrete sealer, which is 70% Xylene solvent acrylic lacquer.
> 
> The high quantity of solvent is to aid penetration into the pores of the concrete to seal it, rather than just a top coat that can wear exposing the pores.
> 
> Breathing apparatus and skin protection is essential with it's use.
> 
> Xylene used to be the solvent in some permanent markers, some now specify Xylene free.
> 
> It's by far the best timber lacquer I have used, but is difficult to attain a perfect finish spraying or brushing.
> It dries to a full gloss finish on timber.
> It also lists UV protection as one of it's qualities.
> I haven't done a test to check for yellowing over time.
> 
> That gives some background
> 
> I tried spraying it onto a print to see if the Xylene solvent would disturb or react with the ink, in this case dye.
> No issues whatsoever.
> 
> I went so far as to saturate one section of the print, which was on Arches cold press 300GSM, till the lacquer was visible through the back of the paper.
> Again no issues.
> 
> At the time I didn't have a spectrometer to measure if there was any discernable density change, but I may be able to do some tests on a greyscale separation early next year.
> 
> Now the good part, it's $70Aud for 20 litres. That's a lot to use, actually too much, but if you do the garden path or driveway, keep some spare to try.
> However I'd also suggest auto lacquer, which is used for scratch and UV protection over metallic and pearl finishes, would be an excellent choice for some tests.
> 
> A slight variation on clear auto lacquer has been used in the surfboard industry for decades. It's a clear final coat with a matte finish, which is just auto finish with a gloss inhibitor = matte finish.
> 
> Clear Auto finishes are usually available in pressure packs for those without spray equipment. Also some auto paint suppliers can load individual pressure packs for anyone after a gloss inhibited, matte finish.
> 
> If you really want to know the chemical composition of what you're currently using - locate the MSDS (material data safety sheet). Sometimes individual elements are just listed by CAS# in an attempt at concealment. Just research the listed CAS# instead.
> 
> peace out
>

Clear automotive lacquers were used by photographers all the way back into the 50s, at least, for coating C-prints. The matting agent was usually a flour like silica added to it to get a suitable matt finish.

When properly done, it did help protect prints but it was absolutely needed if prints were to be framed directly against glass.
However, I saw, and made restorations of, many examples where it was not a good job and prints faded unevenly where the coating was inadequate.
Of course in those days they all faded badly over time anyway, even if more slowly and evenly when coating was well done.That problem had disastrous consequences for many small studios at the time.

Regards,
Duane

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn" <glennrbarry@...> wrote:

>
> I'm not a chemist, but I do know an industrial chemist and can converse easily with him about chemistry.
> 
> Here's a curious one for you all, I received some left over concrete sealer, which is 70% Xylene solvent acrylic lacquer.
> 
> The high quantity of solvent is to aid penetration into the pores of the concrete to seal it, rather than just a top coat that can wear exposing the pores.
> 
> Breathing apparatus and skin protection is essential with it's use.
> 
> Xylene used to be the solvent in some permanent markers, some now specify Xylene free.
> 
> It's by far the best timber lacquer I have used, but is difficult to attain a perfect finish spraying or brushing.
> It dries to a full gloss finish on timber.
> It also lists UV protection as one of it's qualities.
> I haven't done a test to check for yellowing over time.
> 
> That gives some background
> 
> I tried spraying it onto a print to see if the Xylene solvent would disturb or react with the ink, in this case dye.
> No issues whatsoever.
> 
> I went so far as to saturate one section of the print, which was on Arches cold press 300GSM, till the lacquer was visible through the back of the paper.
> Again no issues.
> 
> At the time I didn't have a spectrometer to measure if there was any discernable density change, but I may be able to do some tests on a greyscale separation early next year.
> 
> Now the good part, it's $70Aud for 20 litres. That's a lot to use, actually too much, but if you do the garden path or driveway, keep some spare to try.
> However I'd also suggest auto lacquer, which is used for scratch and UV protection over metallic and pearl finishes, would be an excellent choice for some tests.
> 
> A slight variation on clear auto lacquer has been used in the surfboard industry for decades. It's a clear final coat with a matte finish, which is just auto finish with a gloss inhibitor = matte finish.
> 
> Clear Auto finishes are usually available in pressure packs for those without spray equipment. Also some auto paint suppliers can load individual pressure packs for anyone after a gloss inhibited, matte finish.
> 
> If you really want to know the chemical composition of what you're currently using - locate the MSDS (material data safety sheet). Sometimes individual elements are just listed by CAS# in an attempt at concealment. Just research the listed CAS# instead.
> 
> peace out
>

Xylene has been removed from most commercial products for some very good health and safety reasons. First and foremost is that it is absorbed not only by the respiratory system but also cuticles, eyeballs and skin taking with whatever has been mixed with it.  There is no wearable safety equipment that offers full protection, the toxic effects are cumulative and irrereversable and especially damaging to the liver and kidneys.  No matter how well you think it works it's not worth the risk to yourself and those around you.  AND there are safer alternatives.  One is a UV shield made by the golden co.  Another co. Breathing Color, offers a roll on product - do some research and act responibly

Berel Lutsky
Associate Professor of Art
UW Manitowoc
920-683-4735