Digital BW, The Print

I had numerous requests to show an older, problematic image, reprocessed through Lightroom 4. Here's what happened when I ran that test:

http://cdtobie.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/lightroom-4-1-conversion-example/

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager


Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@...
Skype: cdtobie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Perhaps, the lesson may have also been that given the tools of the day, DPP
would have been a better choice and/or a double process in LR.  I do get the
point however. It was one of my complaints about LR and it's tools and why
on difficult images I used the RAW processor that matched the camera, DPP,
Capture NX2, etc. The new version will definitely make many start looking at
their old work. 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C D Tobie
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 2:24 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com;
digital-fineart@yahoogroups.com; EpsonWideFormat@yahoogroups.com;
EPSON_Printers@yahoogroups.com; datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Requested Lightroom Conversion Example
 
  
I had numerous requests to show an older, problematic image, reprocessed
through Lightroom 4. Here's what happened when I ran that test:

http://cdtobie.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/lightroom-4-1-conversion-example/

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager

Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email: cdtobie@... <mailto:cdtobie%40datacolor.com> 
Skype: cdtobie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That looks like a worthwhile improvement.

I assume Photoshop CS6 will get the same new processes.  Any word on that?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> I had numerous requests to show an older, problematic image, reprocessed through Lightroom 4. Here's what happened when I ran that test:
> 
> http://cdtobie.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/lightroom-4-1-conversion-example/
...

>>Perhaps, the lesson may have also been that given the tools of the day, DPP would have been a better choice and/or a double process in LR.

Agreed; all the third party RAW converter developers have claimed superior results as the key justification for their products. And as you say, for difficult images, that's the way things often got done. What's interesting here is that the default tool, the one built into the most common cataloging tool, may well do the trick for even the difficult images. That would simplify my life, and those of many other photographers, I suspect. 

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@datacolor.com

On Apr 6, 2012, at 10:32 AM, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

> Perhaps, the lesson may have also been that given the tools of the day, DPP
> would have been a better choice and/or a double process in LR.

>>That looks like a worthwhile improvement.

>>I assume Photoshop CS6 will get the same new processes. Any word on that?

I'm working with the PS CS6 beta, and the last Adobe Labs update to ACR did not yet process 5d Mark lll files, so that slowed down my testing. But yes, the engine of the CS6 version of ACR should have the same improvements, even if if does not have the same interface, or bells and whistles. By release, I'm sure all of that will be worked out. 

In this era of RAW processing, large files, and large libraries, using Bridge, ACR, and Photoshop seems more like a hack than a workflow, but I do see a surprising number of people using it. 

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Imaging Color Solutions
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Apr 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> That looks like a worthwhile improvement.
> 
> I assume Photoshop CS6 will get the same new processes. Any word on that?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> >>That looks like a worthwhile improvement.
> 
> >>I assume Photoshop CS6 will get the same new processes. Any word on that?
> 
> I'm working with the PS CS6 beta, and the last Adobe Labs update to ACR did not yet process 5d Mark lll files, so that slowed down my testing. But yes, the engine of the CS6 version of ACR should have the same improvements, even if if does not have the same interface, or bells and whistles. By release, I'm sure all of that will be worked out. 

Process 2012 is in the Beta and can be chosen with a dropdown in the Camera Calibration menu.  The interface seems to be the same as 2010 except the Basic Menu has changed a bit: Brightness has disappeared and been replaced by Whites, and Whites and Blacks can now have negative values.    Recovery and Fill have disappeared and been replaced with Highlights and Shadows which also can have negative values.  I don't know how this compares with the new Lightroom Beta and it's controls.

Yes, bridge is and always has been a kludge.

That said, I have always found LR to be cumbersome too.  The Create 
Catalogs thing instead of just opening a folder, Ctrl-A and go to work 
to mass process is a PITA.

Seth

On Apr 6, 2012, at 3:26 PM, robert49brake wrote:

> Process 2012 is in the Beta and can be chosen with a dropdown in the Camera Calibration menu. The interface seems to be the same as 2010 except the Basic Menu has changed a bit: Brightness has disappeared and been replaced by Whites, and Whites and Blacks can now have negative values. Recovery and Fill have disappeared and been replaced with Highlights and Shadows which also can have negative values. I don't know how this compares with the new Lightroom Beta and it's controls.

I wrote and illustrated a side by side comparison for Lightroom, but its the same as what you describe here. The joker in the deck is the forced change in Tone Curve that happens when you convert.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager


Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@...
Skype: cdtobie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But LR will do most if not all of the mass processing for you 
automatically as you put the images on to your computer. You set up a 
preset to do things like giving your images unique names, performing 
autoexposure, applying a tone curve etc, creating a backup and so on and 
apply it as the images are read from your card reader, and can have 
different presets for different kinds of work.

It is a huge time-saver, and with LR4  many images really need no 
further processing, though I often do a little work with the adjustment 
brush and tweak the exposure etc a little. Ctrl-A is pretty useful in LR 
too by the way, as is the pretty flexible synchronisation of most image 
properties. So you can select a whole batch of images in LR and - for 
example - give them all the same keywords or the same colour temperature.

And of course you set up export presets to produce files for different 
purposes - I've different ones for each agency I send files to so that I 
automatically meet their requirements, another that produces web images 
with my watermark on them, etc. Each automatically gets images the right 
type, size, profile, quality, sharpening etc and gets output to the 
specified location

You only need to create a catalogue once when you first use LR, although 
you can have more catalogues if you like. I have almost 300,000 images 
in my main catalogue and it still works pretty well.


Peter Marshall    -    Photographer, Writer: NUJ
petermarshall@...
_________________________________________________________________
>Re:PHOTO                       http://re-photo.co.uk
My London Diary                 http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage:   http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:    http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
River Lea/Lee Valley 1980-2010  http://river-lea.co.uk/
and elsewhere......

On 06/04/2012 20:44, Seth Rossman wrote:
> Yes, bridge is and always has been a kludge.
>
> That said, I have always found LR to be cumbersome too.  The Create
> Catalogs thing instead of just opening a folder, Ctrl-A and go to work
> to mass process is a PITA.
>
> Seth
>
>

Most of the changes in the color handling remind me why I like B&W so much.

At any rate, what I've been waiting for is a better luminance noise reduction system.  They did a major upgrade in the color noise reduction last iteration, but luminance noise seems like it's tied too much to sharpness.  Taking multiple exposures initially -- multi-sampling --  where possible, still seems to work the best (even without exposure bracketing).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

At any rate, what I've been waiting for is a better luminance noise reduction system.   www.PaulRoark.com
************************
I will be ordering Lightroom 4 next week and wondered if anyone had used Nik Software Silver Efex Pro and what was thought about it the Academic discount is $99 so an afordable choice for B&W work if it provides an advantage for converting from Color to B&W. I will also purchase CS6 Student discount in May and will be in Photoshop classes in the Fall and Spring 2013.

I have read reviews and it seems around half like it and half say it does not do anything that photoshop can do. I have found Actions for converting to B&W but then this software came up on a search. I know it has been mentioned as NIK but not in any detail.

Thanks for any thoughts or links to information.

Bill Lewis

I would say save your money for now.  PS (5.1) does an excellent 
conversion to B&W.  Since you're going to PS classes, just learn to use 
the sliders in Adjustments> Black and White.  It is an incredible amount 
of control since all photos are really different and have subtleties a 
plug-in really can't pick up.

Seth

On Apr 6, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Bill wrote:

> I have read reviews and it seems around half like it and half say it does not do anything that photoshop can do. I have found Actions for converting to B&W but then this software came up on a search. I know it has been mentioned as NIK but not in any detail.


Nik has webinars for all their products where you can see live demos and get a better idea of how they work. Some people find the workflow better and some prefer doing things in Photoshop.

The daily webinar schedule can be found here:

http://www.niksoftware.com/learnmore/usa/index.php

and the archives here:

http://www.niksoftware.com/learnmore/usa/index.php/webinars/archives/

Jim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Someone in this group turned me on to Nik Silver Efex Pro and I won't use PS or LR for doing B&W again. I do some preliminary adjustments on the color images first.

As far as noise reduction, I sometimes use Nik Dfine because I was not happy with the NR in Lightroom particularly with my 7D images. It's a change in workflow though because you wind up with a TIF file and I prefer having the sidecar XMP (or multiples) used with virtual copies. But the NR results are much better in Nik and the control point approach lets you easily add more NR in areas with less detail (I'm not a layer mask kind of guy). LR4.x seems a bit better though.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <bill-lewis@...> wrote:

>
> At any rate, what I've been waiting for is a better luminance noise reduction system.   www.PaulRoark.com
> ************************
> I will be ordering Lightroom 4 next week and wondered if anyone had used Nik Software Silver Efex Pro and what was thought about it the Academic discount is $99 so an afordable choice for B&W work if it provides an advantage for converting from Color to B&W. I will also purchase CS6 Student discount in May and will be in Photoshop classes in the Fall and Spring 2013.
> 
> I have read reviews and it seems around half like it and half say it does not do anything that photoshop can do. I have found Actions for converting to B&W but then this software came up on a search. I know it has been mentioned as NIK but not in any detail.
> 
> Thanks for any thoughts or links to information.
> 
> Bill Lewis
>

George Jardine has a nice video tutorial (36 minutes) on B&W conversion. Worth watching before spending money on additional B&W conversion tools. Link: http://mulita.com/blog/?p=1244.

____________________________________
Robert Damon





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are many waysI've read about to create a BW image:

1) Desaturate

2) Grayscale mode

3) L channel in LAB

4) Fill a color image with black in color mode

5) Sliders in Photoshop/Lightroom/ACR

6) Channel Mixer

7) Plug-Ins like Silver Efex Pro

8) Dual Hue/Saturation layers

9) R, G, B layers based on their respective channels and masked

10) R, G, B layers based on their respective channels with an additional Grayscale layer and masked

11) Channel Mixer layers, 1 each for R, G, B and masked

12) Channel Mixer layers, 1 each for R, G, B along with a Silver Efex layer and masked

13) Silver Efex layers based on R, G, B channels with an additional Silver Efex layer and masked (similar idea to #10 but with more control)

And I've played with combinations of the above...

And if you want more info on the topic, you can check out "From Oz to Kansas: Almost Every Black and White Technique Known to Man" by Vincent Versace (who came up with some of the above) which is due to be out in July according to Amazon.

Jim

Bill Pierce posted his method for B&W conversion on the RangeFinder forum using LR and works very well:

Snip%<----------

(My own technique is to convert to black and white in Lightroom, boost the clarity to about 60, the fill light to about 35, the recovery to about 75 and reduce the brightness to about 0. Then I increase the contrast, exposure and finally the black setting to produce a pleasing image. Obviously these numbers change with specific images, but this is the range I work in.(My own technique is to convert to black and white in Lightroom, boost the clarity to about 60, the fill light to about 35, the recovery to about 75 and reduce the brightness to about 0. Then I increase the contrast, exposure and finally the black setting to produce a pleasing image. Obviously these numbers change with specific images, but this is the range I work in.

Snip%<-------------------

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jim Goshorn <jgoshorn@...> wrote:

>
> There are many waysI've read about to create a BW image:
> 
> 1) Desaturate
> 
> 2) Grayscale mode
> 
> 3) L channel in LAB
> 
> 4) Fill a color image with black in color mode
> 
> 5) Sliders in Photoshop/Lightroom/ACR
> 
> 6) Channel Mixer
> 
> 7) Plug-Ins like Silver Efex Pro
> 
> 8) Dual Hue/Saturation layers
> 
> 9) R, G, B layers based on their respective channels and masked
> 
> 10) R, G, B layers based on their respective channels with an additional Grayscale layer and masked
> 
> 11) Channel Mixer layers, 1 each for R, G, B and masked
> 
> 12) Channel Mixer layers, 1 each for R, G, B along with a Silver Efex layer and masked
> 
> 13) Silver Efex layers based on R, G, B channels with an additional Silver Efex layer and masked (similar idea to #10 but with more control)
> 
> And I've played with combinations of the above...
> 
> And if you want more info on the topic, you can check out "From Oz to Kansas: Almost Every Black and White Technique Known to Man" by Vincent Versace (who came up with some of the above) which is due to be out in July according to Amazon.
> 
> Jim
>

For the current LR 4/ACR 7 2012 process, that technique is going to have to change...

Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert Damon <robert.damon@...> wrote:
>
> George Jardine has a nice video tutorial (36 minutes) on B&W conversion. Worth watching before spending money on additional B&W conversion tools. Link: http://mulita.com/blog/?p=1244.
> 
> ____________________________________
> Robert Damon
> 


As someone who is new to digital, with my new M9, and new to LR, I found this tutorial to be an eye opener.  Thanks very much for the link, Robert.

Harry