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Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-02 by Paul Roark

I have posted the results of a fade test in the Files section of this forum.
The Files section is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

Then go to "Inksets, reviews and techniques" and see the "Indelible v MIS VM
K 300Hr Fade.jpg."

The short summary is that the Indelible black ink test strip faded and
warm-shifted much more than the comparison MIS VM/FS black ink test strip.
(A description of the procedures and detailed results are below.)

Because I'm interested in longevity and resistance to warm-shifting, my
tests have been limited to pigmented inks (although some claim that all of
the desktop "pigmented" inks have some dye in them -- I don't know).
Compared to this sample, the Indelible black ink mid-tones exhibited the
worst warm-shifting I've seen.  At 15.4 units, it's about twice the 8 units
I expect, on average, from pigmented inksets, and more than 3 times the MIS
VM comparison test strip warming, at 4.4 units, as measured by my scanner.

I, unfortunately, did not have a Generations Enhance black ink test strip in
the fader at the same time.  I think this would be the most comparable ink
to test and compare the Indelible black ink to.  Media Street is up-front
about it's Enhanced black having about 25% dye in it.  I would guess that
Indelible black also has a significant dye component, based on what I see in
the fade test results and the depth of black and tone of the ink when first
printed.

I used the MIS VM black ink as a comparison.  Thus, in the florescent light
fader along with the Indelible black ink test strip was a test strip printed
with MIS VM black ink.  (This is the same as the MIS FS black ink, and
probably the same as Piezo black ink.)  Both prints were on Epson Archival
Matte paper, printed at the same time, and allowed to dry overnight before
the test started.  The test strips were rotated in the fader to eliminate
any chance of uneven light (which I've never detected anyway).

After 300 hours in the fader, the test strips were measured by both an Epson
1600 Expression scanner and an X-Rite Digital Swatchbook spectrophotometer.
With the scanner, I select a relatively large portion of the test patch and
then use the Photoshop Histogram tool.  The relative changes in the test
strips were consistent between these methods and consistent with the visual
impression.

At the 100% black patch of the 21-step test strip, my primary interest is
the visual fade.  The scanner black point setting, of course, controls the
absolute numbers, but the change in these numbers between the control (dark
storage) strip and the test strip should show the relative amount of fade.

Indelible 100% K control = 7.23, 300 hour test strip = 10.93;

	Relative fade (change in luminance) = 3.7.

MIS VM 100% K control = 13.61, 300 hour test strip = 14.55;

	Relative fade (change in luminance) = 0.94.

X-Rite visual density readings:

(Where my 3 readings were not identical, I add a + or - to indicate the
direction of the higher or lower reading.)

Indelible 100% K control = 1.76, 300 hour test strip = 1.71-;

	Fade (change in visual density) = 0.05+.

MIS VM 100% K control = 1.67, 300 hour test strip = 1.66;

	Fade (change in visual density) = 0.01.

Outside the 100% black, both fading and warm-shifting become important to
me.  I measure warming as the change in the Red-minus-Blue values, as read
by the scanner.  With black-ink-only printing, the "70%" patch of the test
strip is about the same density as the 50% patch of a Piezo or MIS VM quad
21-step test file print.  Thus, I measured the 70% patch of the control and
test strips as representative of the midtone fade and warm-shift
characteristics of the inks.

Scanner results:

Indelible 70% fading (change in scanner luminance values) = 4.9.

Indelible 70% warming (change in R-B channels) = 15.4.

MIS VM 70% fading (change in scanner luminance values) = 2.86.

MIS VM 70% warming (change in R-B channels) = 4.4.

X-Rite results at 70% patch:

(Density read-out order is cyan, magenta, yellow, visual.)

Indelible 70% control = 0.68, 0.65, 0.66-, 0.67-.

Indelible 70% 300 hour = 0.58, 0.61, 0.65, 0.60.

MIS VM 70% control = 0.58, 0.58, 0.59-, 0.58,

MIS VM 70% 300 hour = 0.55, 0.56, 0.58, 0.55.

(Note that the Indelible ink sample for this test was from a third-party
user and tester.  I now also have a sample from a party involved in the
distribution of the ink.  The next time I test the ink, I will use this new
sample and compare the ink to Generations Enhanced black.  However, such
test may be delayed for some time due to other priorities.  The current fade
test was stopped at 300 hours.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-03 by Bill Morse

Paul, the thing that jumped out at me about this report is how much more
dynamic ranges these inks have- they're darker after 300 hours than the MIS
inks are when they come out of the printer!  When you look at the step
wedge, do the steps remain relatively consistent, or do they tend to
deviate?

Thanks for this report-

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 02139

on 3/2/02 4:05 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

I have posted the results of a fade test in the Files section of this forum.

The short summary is that the Indelible black ink test strip faded and
warm-shifted much more than the comparison MIS VM/FS black ink test strip.
(A description of the procedures and detailed results are below.)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-03 by Paul Roark

Bill,

You wrote:

>... the thing that jumped out at me about this report is how much more
>dynamic ranges these inks have- they're darker after 300 hours than the MIS
>inks are when they come out of the printer!  When you look at the step
>wedge, do the steps remain relatively consistent, or do they tend to
>deviate?

Yes, the Indelible black is black.  It's density is between the MIS VM and
Gen Enhance black.

The steps are still even (just brown -- see the jpeg I put in the Files
section), but the test strips were black ink only.   So, it doesn't answer
the question about how they would look in the context of a full quad inkset.

I must say, however, that your observation is not lost on me.  I'm
considering trying to make an "enhanced" black that does not warm up.  If I
could control the warming, I'd be willing to take some more fading, IF it
would work in the context of a full quad.  With the MIS FS-neutral -- which
inks are also used in the MIS-VM-Sepia -- I've gotten the warming to near
zero in the midtones, but I have not touched the black yet.  So, ...

Paul


________________
on 3/2/02 4:05 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

I have posted the results of a fade test in the Files section of this forum.

The short summary is that the Indelible black ink test strip faded and
warm-shifted much more than the comparison MIS VM/FS black ink test strip.
(A description of the procedures and detailed results are below.)

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-03 by mkravit

Paul,

Excellent report. Thanks for doing the hard work to arrive at this 
conclusion.  Question, is the final post fader densities of the 
Indellible ink higher than the MIS? If so, it it black or did it 
change to a deep dense brown?

Mike

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-03 by Bill Morse

Mike, take a look at the jpeg Paul posted. The color shift is quite
dramatic.

Bill

on 3/3/02 11:52 AM, mkravit wrote:
Question, is the final post fader densities of the
Indellible ink higher than the MIS? If so, it it black or did it
change to a deep dense brown?

Mike


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-03 by Paul Roark

Mike,

You wrote:

>... Question, is the final post fader densities of the
>Indelible ink higher than the MIS? If so, it black or did it
>change to a deep dense brown?

The readings with the densitometer are as follows:

Indelible 100% K control = 1.76, 300 hour test strip = 1.71-;

      Fade (change in visual density) = 0.05+.

MIS VM 100% K control = 1.67, 300 hour test strip = 1.66;

      Fade (change in visual density) = 0.01.

So, at 300 hours, the Indelible is still slightly darker.  Whether this
would be true after another 300 hours is questionable.

You can look at the Jpeg in the files section and see the color.  It shows
up worst in the tones that are less than 100%.  However, the black ink would
be in shadows that would be light enough to see color.  So, the warming is a
problem.

In fact, warming is still a problem with the MIS FS-Neutral and VM-sepia.
As they age, the midtones don't warm much, but the MIS VM black does warm up
some.  As such, there is a bit of cross-over.  To really get to a
non-warming inkset, I need to figure out how to get rid of the black
warming, and that is a problem.  I've been able to slow it a bit, but the
density of the ink decreases, and the huge amount of pigment in the black is
hard to have much affect on with other inks.  That is why some "enhancement"
with black dye might be helpful in dealing with the warming issue.  I'll
just have to take a shot at it and see what happens.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-03 by mkravit

Bill,

Yes, I did and I see what you mean. The Indelible ink is VERY brown. 
I guess the manufacturer is not too happy with the results. I was 
hopingh that these inks were everything the manufacturer claimed and 
more.

MIke


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Bill Morse <willym@b...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Mike, take a look at the jpeg Paul posted. The color shift is quite
> dramatic.
> 
> Bill

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-08 by Dickbo

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

The question I would like to see answered is what is the 4 colour Dmax
density on good coated i.e. glossy stock.
As far as i can remember a photographic image will give you 2.2 on a good
day and a four colour ink offset on coated art will offer 2.1.

Actually while you are at it how about a separate and combi dmax on all the
six colours used by an epson 1290.

Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-08 by Robert Morrison

On 3/8/02 5:03 AM, "Dickbo" <Dickbo@...> wrote:

 The question I would like to see answered is what is the 4 colour Dmax
> density on good coated i.e. glossy stock.
> As far as i can remember a photographic image will give you 2.2 on a good
> day and a four colour ink offset on coated art will offer 2.1.
> 
> Actually while you are at it how about a separate and combi dmax on all the
> six colours used by an epson 1290.
> 
You can easily get to 2.2 with pigments on glossy stock...but you will
probably need to spray it.  I can also get to 2.2 with a print on matte
paper coated after printing with my coating system.  A spray won't get you
close on matte paper, though.

Robert

RE: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test

2002-03-08 by Alessandro Pardi

Robert,
I may have missed something, but what is your coating system?
 
Alessandro Pardi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
Sent: venerdì 8 marzo 2002 16.42
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Ink Fade Test


On 3/8/02 5:03 AM, "Dickbo" <Dickbo@...> wrote:

The question I would like to see answered is what is the 4 colour Dmax
> density on good coated i.e. glossy stock.
> As far as i can remember a photographic image will give you 2.2 on a good
> day and a four colour ink offset on coated art will offer 2.1.
> 
> Actually while you are at it how about a separate and combi dmax on all
the
> six colours used by an epson 1290.
> 
You can easily get to 2.2 with pigments on glossy stock...but you will
probably need to spray it.  I can also get to 2.2 with a print on matte
paper coated after printing with my coating system.  A spray won't get you
close on matte paper, though.

Robert




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