Digital BW, The Print

I have begun to scan in B&W negatives from my darkroom past.  I use a Nikon 9000ED and VuScan for this.  The problem is that when I scan certain favorite negatives that include images of the sun, the over-exposed sun images and immediate surround are totally impenetrable to the scanner, even with two or three passes.  These same images printed very well through an optical enlarger along with the expected heavy burning of the sun image area, which was able to show a density curve even within the darkest area.

I could accept defeat and scan an optical print of these negatives (sigh). However I wonder if: a) I could adjust the 9000 in some way to make it scan through the spot, or b) if an expensive drum scan would do the job?

On 7/23/2012 2:07 PM, togeorge626 wrote:
>
> I have begun to scan in B&W negatives from my darkroom past. I use a Nikon 9000ED and VuScan for this. The problem is that when 
> I scan certain favorite negatives that include images of the sun, the over-exposed sun images and immediate surround are totally 
> impenetrable to the scanner, even with two or three passes. These same images printed very well through an optical enlarger 
> along with the expected heavy burning of the sun image area, which was able to show a density curve even within the darkest area.
>
> I could accept defeat and scan an optical print of these negatives (sigh). However I wonder if: a) I could adjust the 9000 in 
> some way to make it scan through the spot, or b) if an expensive drum scan would do the job?
>
I've had good success with *really* dense negs adjusting the analog gain of the 9000ED.
Dunno if/how Vuescan enables this.

Dana



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Certainly try Dana's suggestion.  If that fails, get a good drum scan.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Dana Myers <dana.myers@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> On 7/23/2012 2:07 PM, togeorge626 wrote:
> >
> > I have begun to scan in B&W negatives from my darkroom past. I use a
> Nikon 9000ED and VuScan for this. The problem is that when
> > I scan certain favorite negatives that include images of the sun, the
> over-exposed sun images and immediate surround are totally
> > impenetrable to the scanner, even with two or three passes. These same
> images printed very well through an optical enlarger
> > along with the expected heavy burning of the sun image area, which was
> able to show a density curve even within the darkest area.
> >
> > I could accept defeat and scan an optical print of these negatives
> (sigh). However I wonder if: a) I could adjust the 9000 in
> > some way to make it scan through the spot, or b) if an expensive drum
> scan would do the job?
> >
> I've had good success with *really* dense negs adjusting the analog gain
> of the 9000ED.
> Dunno if/how Vuescan enables this.
>
> Dana
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can try using Silverfast.  They have a setting for dark, dense
negatives in their HDR Studio processing software.  There is a beta version
of the newest upgrade that you can download and try for free:

http://www.silverfast.com/show/silverfast8-hdr/en.html

It works for me and I will buy it when the official version is released.

Tina



On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 5:07 PM, togeorge626 <togeorge41934@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I have begun to scan in B&W negatives from my darkroom past. I use a Nikon
> 9000ED and VuScan for this. The problem is that when I scan certain
> favorite negatives that include images of the sun, the over-exposed sun
> images and immediate surround are totally impenetrable to the scanner, even
> with two or three passes. These same images printed very well through an
> optical enlarger along with the expected heavy burning of the sun image
> area, which was able to show a density curve even within the darkest area.
>
> I could accept defeat and scan an optical print of these negatives (sigh).
> However I wonder if: a) I could adjust the 9000 in some way to make it scan
> through the spot, or b) if an expensive drum scan would do the job?
>
>
>
-- 
Tina Manley, ASMP
www.tinamanley.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 7/23/2012 2:56 PM, pdesmidt tds.net wrote:
> Certainly try Dana's suggestion.  If that fails, get a good drum scan.
>
>> I've had good success with *really* dense negs adjusting the analog gain
>> of the 9000ED.
>> Dunno if/how Vuescan enables this.
>>

FWIW, the Nikon scan software makes analog gain easy to adjust, which is
what I've used.  It's a slider, so you can try increasing the amount until it's
enough.

Dana

I would also suggest the Nikon scan, or if you are on a Mac, do you the
setting in Vue Scan, They can be a little hard to get a hang of but they do
work. Change both you expose and use the analog gain, combine the scan in
PS, or and HDR program. That of course depends on so many versions of
software as to which is best, better or good.. : )   yes, the easy days. put
neg in enlarger, make sure it's in focus , print. oh. 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dana
Myers
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 5:01 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Cc: pdesmidt tds.net
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Scanning through dense negatives
 
  
On 7/23/2012 2:56 PM, pdesmidt tds.net wrote:
> Certainly try Dana's suggestion. If that fails, get a good drum scan.
>
>> I've had good success with *really* dense negs adjusting the analog gain
>> of the 9000ED.
>> Dunno if/how Vuescan enables this.
>>

FWIW, the Nikon scan software makes analog gain easy to adjust, which is
what I've used. It's a slider, so you can try increasing the amount until
it's
enough.

Dana



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 07/23/2012 11:07 PM, togeorge626 wrote:
> I have begun to scan in B&W negatives from my darkroom past. I use a
> Nikon 9000ED and VuScan for this. The problem is that when I scan
> certain favorite negatives that include images of the sun, the
> over-exposed sun images and immediate surround are totally impenetrable
> to the scanner, even with two or three passes. These same images printed
> very well through an optical enlarger along with the expected heavy
> burning of the sun image area, which was able to show a density curve
> even within the darkest area.
>
> I could accept defeat and scan an optical print of these negatives
> (sigh). However I wonder if: a) I could adjust the 9000 in some way to
> make it scan through the spot, or b) if an expensive drum scan would do
> the job?

The desktop scanners use a longer exposure per sample for tasks like 
that, sometimes that is called analogue gain which is not what they 
actually do. Check your Vuescan manual for longer exposure and the 
combination of a long exposure scan + a normal scan. Can not recall the 
right Vuescan terms for them.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Well, with all the various scanning suggestions for very dense negatives, my experience has been
that none of them really work well, including drum scans. I've a collection of a couple dozen 
negatives waiting for me to get around to using a chemical reducer, which IMO is the best, and 
probably fastest  way to save those negs. 

There's lots of info on the internet for reducers, but most of the googled inquiries turn out to be 
lectures of how to expose your negatives, rather than fixing the already dense ones.

However, if you decide to do it yourself, the most common process is a combination of
Farmer's Reducer (which is basically Potassium Ferricyanide), and Sodium Thiosulfate (which is
hypo/fixer).  You would want to use only that, and not a rapid fixer or one with hardener in it.

The same chemistry will work as a subtractive reducer (removing equal amounts of silver from
both the highlight and shadow areas) OR as a proportional reducer ( removing more from the
overexposed or overdeveloped highlights than from the shadow area.

The subtractive method is a singe solution of Farmer's Reducer with Sodium Thiosulfate, and the
proportional  method is two trays - one with each chemical, and the process can go back and 
forth until the densities are correct. Diluting both solutions with water, will slow the process, which
is helpful, especially when one is first trying the process. Finally, one would wash the reduced 
negatives for about 15 minutes, then add a couple drops of Photoflo to get a streak free dry surface.

You do not need a darkroom - my plan is to use the kitchen sink! You do need rubber gloves
and a couple or three darkroom trays - plastic or stainless steel.

Finally - there's tons written about this process. I stumbled on one book called the Elements of
B&W Printing by Carson Graves. He has a chapter called "Salvage Techniques - negative 
reducers". I'm not connected in any way with the author or publishers, but it looks like a 
helpful publication - accessible both from the internet and bookstores.

These days, the best source I know of for purchasing the chemistry is Photographers' Formulary.

Hope this helps.

Clayton Price
www.claytonpricephotographer.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a suggestion. Get a regular silver print made from the neg and scan that print. Advantage of new print is to have a very clean surface and use a paper with little or no texture.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 24, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Clayton Price wrote:

> Well, with all the various scanning suggestions for very dense negatives, my experience has been
> that none of them really work well, including drum scans. I've a collection of a couple dozen 
> negatives waiting for me to get around to using a chemical reducer, which IMO is the best, and 
> probably fastest  way to save those negs. 
> 
> There's lots of info on the internet for reducers, but most of the googled inquiries turn out to be 
> lectures of how to expose your negatives, rather than fixing the already dense ones.
> 
> However, if you decide to do it yourself, the most common process is a combination of
> Farmer's Reducer (which is basically Potassium Ferricyanide), and Sodium Thiosulfate (which is
> hypo/fixer).  You would want to use only that, and not a rapid fixer or one with hardener in it.
> 
> The same chemistry will work as a subtractive reducer (removing equal amounts of silver from
> both the highlight and shadow areas) OR as a proportional reducer ( removing more from the
> overexposed or overdeveloped highlights than from the shadow area.
> 
> The subtractive method is a singe solution of Farmer's Reducer with Sodium Thiosulfate, and the
> proportional  method is two trays - one with each chemical, and the process can go back and 
> forth until the densities are correct. Diluting both solutions with water, will slow the process, which
> is helpful, especially when one is first trying the process. Finally, one would wash the reduced 
> negatives for about 15 minutes, then add a couple drops of Photoflo to get a streak free dry surface.
> 
> You do not need a darkroom - my plan is to use the kitchen sink! You do need rubber gloves
> and a couple or three darkroom trays - plastic or stainless steel.
> 
> Finally - there's tons written about this process. I stumbled on one book called the Elements of
> B&W Printing by Carson Graves. He has a chapter called "Salvage Techniques - negative 
> reducers". I'm not connected in any way with the author or publishers, but it looks like a 
> helpful publication - accessible both from the internet and bookstores.
> 
> These days, the best source I know of for purchasing the chemistry is Photographers' Formulary.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Clayton Price
> www.claytonpricephotographer.com

> The desktop scanners use a longer exposure per sample for tasks like
> that, sometimes that is called analogue gain which is not what they
> actually do. Check your Vuescan manual for longer exposure and the
> combination of a long exposure scan + a normal scan. Can not recall the
> right Vuescan terms for them.

Analog gain on respectively the R+G+B channels and Multi Exposure are 
the terms used in Vuescan.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

I scan negatives as "slides" in the Nikon 8000 and have had good luck with direct sun shots, for example http://www.paulroark.com/Sunburst.jpg

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Proportional reducer might be a better way to go. Don't bleach your thin
areas and reduce the silver in the dense areas. One might also set up to
print the neg and flat bed scan that. 

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
Price
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:46 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Scanning through dense negatives

 

  

Well, with all the various scanning suggestions for very dense negatives, my
experience has been
that none of them really work well, including drum scans. I've a collection
of a couple dozen 
negatives waiting for me to get around to using a chemical reducer, which
IMO is the best, and 
probably fastest way to save those negs. 

There's lots of info on the internet for reducers, but most of the googled
inquiries turn out to be 
lectures of how to expose your negatives, rather than fixing the already
dense ones.

However, if you decide to do it yourself, the most common process is a
combination of
Farmer's Reducer (which is basically Potassium Ferricyanide), and Sodium
Thiosulfate (which is
hypo/fixer). You would want to use only that, and not a rapid fixer or one
with hardener in it.

The same chemistry will work as a subtractive reducer (removing equal
amounts of silver from
both the highlight and shadow areas) OR as a proportional reducer ( removing
more from the
overexposed or overdeveloped highlights than from the shadow area.

The subtractive method is a singe solution of Farmer's Reducer with Sodium
Thiosulfate, and the
proportional method is two trays - one with each chemical, and the process
can go back and 
forth until the densities are correct. Diluting both solutions with water,
will slow the process, which
is helpful, especially when one is first trying the process. Finally, one
would wash the reduced 
negatives for about 15 minutes, then add a couple drops of Photoflo to get a
streak free dry surface.

You do not need a darkroom - my plan is to use the kitchen sink! You do need
rubber gloves
and a couple or three darkroom trays - plastic or stainless steel.

Finally - there's tons written about this process. I stumbled on one book
called the Elements of
B&W Printing by Carson Graves. He has a chapter called "Salvage Techniques -
negative 
reducers". I'm not connected in any way with the author or publishers, but
it looks like a 
helpful publication - accessible both from the internet and bookstores.

These days, the best source I know of for purchasing the chemistry is
Photographers' Formulary.

Hope this helps.

Clayton Price
www.claytonpricephotographer.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "togeorge626" <togeorge41934@...> wrote:
>
> I have begun to scan in B&W negatives from my darkroom past.  I use a Nikon 9000ED and VuScan for this.  The problem is that when I scan certain favorite negatives that include images of the sun, the over-exposed sun images and immediate surround are totally impenetrable to the scanner,

Adjusting the exposure in VueScan is one way to get this. First, insert your film and press Preview. Then Input > Lock Exposure should be visible. You can adjust the exposure value (ccd gain) here and thus be able to see more through the darks. You may need to do two passes, one with a high exposure value and one with a lower (eg, 1.0) value. 

VueScan's Multi Exposure feature does this two-pass bit automatically.

If  you've tried these things already, then I'm of no help.

I agree that using a proportional reducer might help, but please only use
it as a last resort.  And if you do use it, make sure to test it on some
non-important negatives first.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Second Peter's recommendations as well as that the film is from the same
batch if possible. If your negs are already damaged with surface scratches,
embedded dust , finger prints, it may not be a good idea either. 

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pdesmidt
tds.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 1:14 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Scanning through dense negatives

 

  

I agree that using a proportional reducer might help, but please only use
it as a last resort. And if you do use it, make sure to test it on some
non-important negatives first.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I didn't want to get into chemistry if I could avoid it.  I rescued both negatives by setting the VueScan RGB analog gain to 3 and 4, respectively, and then doing subsequent adjustments in Camera Raw for brightness and contrast.  It DO slow the scan, especially the second pass.  But the scanner was able to see through the flair to the actual sun disk.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "EJ Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

>
> Second Peter's recommendations as well as that the film is from the same
> batch if possible. If your negs are already damaged with surface scratches,
> embedded dust , finger prints, it may not be a good idea either. 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214-827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKYPE ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pdesmidt
> tds.net
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 1:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Scanning through dense negatives
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> I agree that using a proportional reducer might help, but please only use
> it as a last resort. And if you do use it, make sure to test it on some
> non-important negatives first.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

That's good news!
Thanks for letting us know.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi togeorge (name?)


I scan very dense and very thin negatives with a Howtek drum with Aztek DPL
software. It is really by far the best solution for problem negatives. I
was very dubious at first about Aztek's claims of superiority, but I have
proved it many times for myself. You won't believe it until you see a drum
scan!  You may have to scan twice, once for the light areas, and once for
the dense areas around the sun, and then apply them as layers in PS, with
masks, etc.

-- 
Regards,

Bill Morse
Wm. Morse Editions

http://www.MorseEditions.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,

Absolutely agree.   I use Colorgetter 2 Pro to scan chromes and negs to 11 X 14 in and nothing else comes close.  I have a number of other high end scanners (have a fine art printing business) that are so much more convenient and faster t though.  Only thing the drum scanner can't do is glass plates.  For this I use a BetterLight Super 8 in a process camera with the plate held in a cut out and mask on a light box.

J Vee     www.jveegraphics.com


On Jul 25, 2012, at 10:58 AM, William Morse wrote:

> Hi togeorge (name?)
> 
> I scan very dense and very thin negatives with a Howtek drum with Aztek DPL
> software. It is really by far the best solution for problem negatives. I
> was very dubious at first about Aztek's claims of superiority, but I have
> proved it many times for myself. You won't believe it until you see a drum
> scan! You may have to scan twice, once for the light areas, and once for
> the dense areas around the sun, and then apply them as layers in PS, with
> masks, etc.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Bill Morse
> Wm. Morse Editions
> 
> http://www.MorseEditions.com/
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The investment one makes in their scanners and accessories, may have
something to do with how we see "best" or good enough.

I haven't seen Colorgetter software. I'll have to take a look into it. 


Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J Vee
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 11:13 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Scanning through dense negatives

Bill,

Absolutely agree.   I use Colorgetter 2 Pro to scan chromes and negs to 11 X
14 in and nothing else comes close.  I have a number of other high end
scanners (have a fine art printing business) that are so much more
convenient and faster t though.  Only thing the drum scanner can't do is
glass plates.  For this I use a BetterLight Super 8 in a process camera with
the plate held in a cut out and mask on a light box.

J Vee     www.jveegraphics.com


On Jul 25, 2012, at 10:58 AM, William Morse wrote:

> Hi togeorge (name?)
> 
> I scan very dense and very thin negatives with a Howtek drum with Aztek
DPL
> software. It is really by far the best solution for problem negatives. I
> was very dubious at first about Aztek's claims of superiority, but I have
> proved it many times for myself. You won't believe it until you see a drum
> scan! You may have to scan twice, once for the light areas, and once for
> the dense areas around the sun, and then apply them as layers in PS, with
> masks, etc.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Bill Morse
> Wm. Morse Editions
> 
> http://www.MorseEditions.com/
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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