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2013-09-08 by john
Does anyone know a POD online company that can provide really neutral black and white photographic reproduction? I have yet to see any of these outfits like Blurb that even come close to providing acceptable reproductions without out color casts or extreme metameric failure. Even the "sepia" hued books I've seen look horrible. But maybe someone is specializing in pod bw photo books. If not I wonder why. John
2013-09-08 by David Kachel
The process itself is too cheap and low end for that. The best you can do is give your images a selenium or brown tone. I have yet to see any of these outfits like Blurb that even come close to providing acceptable reproductions without out color casts or extreme metameric failure. Even the "sepia" hued books I've seen look horrible. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787
2013-09-08 by David Kachel
From: john <deanwork2003@...> But maybe someone is specializing in pod bw photo books. If not I wonder why. It is my understanding that the machines they use are set up to be very automated and have limited flexibility. They all print color only, so when you send them B&W images those images get whatever slight color cast the machine is prone to produce. That's why intentionally "toning" your B&W images helps. Good B&W reproduction requires duotones or tritones. The machines are incapable of this. Entirely different process. I would be delighted to find out I am wrong. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787
2013-09-08 by Mark Sonners
Does anyone know a POD online company that can provide really neutral black and white photographic reproduction?
I have yet to see any of these outfits like Blurb that even come close to providing acceptable reproductions without out color casts or extreme metameric failure. Even the "sepia" hued books I've seen look horrible.
But maybe someone is specializing in pod bw photo books. If not I wonder why.
John
2013-09-08 by <donsbryant@...>
>
The process itself is too cheap and low end for that. The best you can do is give your images a selenium or brown tone.
>
Sorry but that's not accurate. Using Blurb's CMYK profile and software like InDesign neutral B&W is feasible. The bigger problem is likely to be a shorter dynamic range than one has with photo sensitive or ink jet prints.
Besides look at what you are paying for the book. One offs for $50 to $100 aren't going to look like a 600 line repro or even a copy of Lenswork. If you are dissatisfied they will reprint or refund. There are quite a number of POD publishers and Blurb is probably the best know. Google reviews for B&W POD and that will lead you to more information about other publishers.
So if you subscribe to Adobe CC you will have access to products like InDesign. After stewing over the new licensing model I think CC is a bargain.
And there is always this alternative:
http://www.ilfordlab.com/page/61/Black-and-White-Prints-From-Digital.htm
Bind your own tip ins made from your own digital files.
2013-09-08 by David Kachel
From: <donsbryant@...> "Sorry but that's not accurate. Using Blurb's CMYK profile and software like InDesign neutral B&W is feasible. The bigger problem is likely to be a shorter dynamic range than one has with photo sensitive or ink jet prints." Actually I was speaking from experience specifically with Blurb. Their process is not going to produce a neutral B&W print, unless by complete accident, and even then, it depends on who is looking at the images. There really isn't such a thing as a completely neutral B&W image, especially with their printing method. "Besides look at what you are paying for the book. One offs for $50 to $100 aren't going to look like a 600 line repro or even a copy of Lenswork. If you are dissatisfied they will reprint or refund. There are quite a number of POD publishers and Blurb is probably the best know. Google reviews for B&W POD and that will lead you to more information about other publishers." Exactly my point. POD publishers all use equipment that simply can't do the job for high end B&W (it is my understanding from talking to a couple of them, that they are all using pretty much the same machinery). It isn't designed for it. "So if you subscribe to Adobe CC you will have access to products like InDesign. After stewing over the new licensing model I think CC is a bargain." What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The OP was asking about printing books with POD services. Adobe doesn't enter into it. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787
2013-09-08 by Bob Frost
From: "David Kachel" <david@...> > What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The OP was asking about > printing books with POD services. Adobe doesn't enter into it. Surely it does because Lightroom has a Books module to print books through Blurb. Bob frost
2013-09-08 by Ernst Dinkla
On 09/08/2013 02:45 AM, David Kachel wrote: > The process itself is too cheap and low end for that. The best you can > do is give your images a selenium or brown tone. > > > /I have yet to see any of these outfits like Blurb that even come close > to providing acceptable reproductions without out color casts or extreme > metameric failure. Even the "sepia" hued books I've seen look horrible./ > > > David Kachel The HP Indigo liquid toner electrostatic process is not that low end. It comes close to offset printing in quality with certified paper qualities. If just one of the companies that actually do the job for Blurb has the courage to replace CMYK with a Quad toner set and use Paul Roark style partitioning ICC profiles (or my adaption of that for CMYK RIPs) it would give them an advantage to compete with other Blurb suppliers. A market niche possibly but one that can get bigger fast if the quality is good. There is more potential in that process as the Indigo's can have up to 7 toner stations if I recall it correctly so sepia etc + a warm paper like Indigo certified Biotop 3 would be possible too. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
2013-09-08 by <donsbryant@...>
>
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The OP was asking about printing books with POD services. Adobe doesn't enter into it.
>
Not so grasshopper.;
Read Bob's reply. Software is integral to the process and to achieve best results the end user needs to understand what he or she is doing with their software of choice and to have understanding of what the publisher can do and expects from image files.
Things have progressed quality wise for POD publishers over the past few years. And as I said or excuse me as I tried to imply the process isn't exactly a black box. If at first you don't succeed let the publisher know. That's part of their service. If they fail to please you then move on to another service; there are a lot of them out there so they must be doing something right. It's much like looking for good Pro labs in the film days. Good ones (pod publishers) are pricey. Excellent ones are expensive.
I might even suggest trying Costco for an affordable alternative for ones personal needs. On the other hand if you plan to sell through photo-eye then one needs to accept the fact that real $$$ are going to be needed.
Don Bryant
"Sorry but that's not accurate. Using Blurb's CMYK profile and software like InDesign neutral B&W is feasible. The bigger problem is likely to be a shorter dynamic range than one has with photo sensitive or ink jet prints."
Actually I was speaking from experience specifically with Blurb. Their process is not going to produce a neutral B&W print, unless by complete accident, and even then, it depends on who is looking at the images. There really isn't such a thing as a completely neutral B&W image, especially with their printing method.
"Besides look at what you are paying for the book. One offs for $50 to $100 aren't going to look like a 600 line repro or even a copy of Lenswork. If you are dissatisfied they will reprint or refund. There are quite a number of POD publishers and Blurb is probably the best know. Google reviews for B&W POD and that will lead you to more information about other publishers."
Exactly my point. POD publishers all use equipment that simply can't do the job for high end B&W (it is my understanding from talking to a couple of them, that they are all using pretty much the same machinery). It isn't designed for it.
"So if you subscribe to Adobe CC you will have access to products like InDesign. After stewing over the new licensing model I think CC is a bargain."
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The OP was asking about printing books with POD services. Adobe doesn't enter into it.2013-09-08 by john
That is my understanding too David. The technology is certainly there but the workflow of using monochrome inks has not been utilized by anyone as far as I can see by anyone in the POD high-speed low cost press realm. As Ernst just mentioned they most likely could specialize in it by using gray inks only with a couple of toner channels for variation, but just aren't. Even using one gray channel could improve things a lot but limiting the process to cmyk is not going to work. There is a reason in the offset days we used duotones in the context of book projects where 4 color was also utilized for the color content, and that involved a separate printing with different inks, stripping, and registration. The problem for a POD company would be people requesting clean neutral bw in the same book as 4 color, and of course everyone would be screaming for that too and that would be expensive with the technology as it stands now. But with the huge assortment of competing design companies trying to find a market share you would think that at least one of them would specialize in doing black and white only books. There is surely a market there and some day it will be addressed, but I guess not now. John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
> > From: john <deanwork2003@...> > > But maybe someone is specializing in pod bw photo books. If not I wonder > why. > > It is my understanding that the machines they use are set up to be very > automated and have limited flexibility. > They all print color only, so when you send them B&W images those images get > whatever slight color cast the machine is prone to produce. > That's why intentionally "toning" your B&W images helps. > > Good B&W reproduction requires duotones or tritones. The machines are > incapable of this. Entirely different process. > > I would be delighted to find out I am wrong. > > > David Kachel > > ___________________ > > Artist-Photographer > Fine B&W Photographs > > www.davidkachel.com > david@... > > Gallery: > www.reddoorfinephotographs.com > director@... > > PO Box 1893 > Alpine, TX 79831 > (432) 386-5787 >
2013-09-08 by jimbo
Against my better judgment.. :-).. I agree that software today is integral and used to produce pretty much any form of print process today.. So maybe that part was not appropriate...But I think he was coming from a different place. POD printing is a form of production printing that absolutely is not to be considered as a high end print process.. It's functional and effective and works but not appropriate for a real high end expectation in product.. These printers are dialed in globally to achieve a level of quality over a broad spectrum of image types.. Thus they typically average out their out put .. To a critical eye this just doesn't work.. A good source can give you acceptable output but in truth you will be willing to accept something less then perfection. This is an easy compromise for some and not so easy for others.. In my own client base I see a broad range of expectation regarding what is acceptable in out put.. As far as neutral.. well what's neutral for me might not be neutral for you.. So it's a subjective thing.. I have participated in several POD efforts in the past few years.. In truth it's been a ride.. From "OH my God how could they" to "ya know that's not too bad".. Printing of any kind is a subjective process.. If your on your first POD effort.. it can be challenging.. once you have a relationship with a source it's gets easier. Anyway if your expectations are too high then maybe not the best way to go.. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: donsbryant@...
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: Re: [Digital BW] Monochrome POD Book Publishers
>
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The OP was asking about printing books with POD services. Adobe doesn't enter into it.
>
Not so grasshopper.;
Read Bob's reply. Software is integral to the process and to achieve best results the end user needs to understand what he or she is doing with their software of choice and to have understanding of what the publisher can do and expects from image files.
Things have progressed quality wise for POD publishers over the past few years. And as I said or excuse me as I tried to imply the process isn't exactly a black box. If at first you don't succeed let the publisher know. That's part of their service. If they fail to please you then move on to another service; there are a lot of them out there so they must be doing something right. It's much like looking for good Pro labs in the film days. Good ones (pod publishers) are pricey. Excellent ones are expensive.
I might even suggest trying Costco for an affordable alternative for ones personal needs. On the other hand if you plan to sell through photo-eye then one needs to accept the fact that real $$$ are going to be needed.
Don Bryant
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
From: <donsbryant@...>
"Sorry but that's not accurate. Using Blurb's CMYK profile and software like InDesign neutral B&W is feasible. The bigger problem is likely to be a shorter dynamic range than one has with photo sensitive or ink jet prints."
Actually I was speaking from experience specifically with Blurb. Their process is not going to produce a neutral B&W print, unless by complete accident, and even then, it depends on who is looking at the images. There really isn't such a thing as a completely neutral B&W image, especially with their printing method.
"Besides look at what you are paying for the book. One offs for $50 to $100 aren't going to look like a 600 line repro or even a copy of Lenswork. If you are dissatisfied they will reprint or refund. There are quite a number of POD publishers and Blurb is probably the best know. Google reviews for B&W POD and that will lead you to more information about other publishers."
Exactly my point. POD publishers all use equipment that simply can't do the job for high end B&W (it is my understanding from talking to a couple of them, that they are all using pretty much the same machinery). It isn't designed for it.
"So if you subscribe to Adobe CC you will have access to products like InDesign. After stewing over the new licensing model I think CC is a bargain."
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The OP was asking about printing books with POD services. Adobe doesn't enter into it.
David Kachel
___________________
Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs
www.davidkachel.com
david@...
Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6646 - Release Date: 09/07/132013-09-08 by john
My expectations would be that the bw reproduction doesn't look green under daylight or red under tungsten. That is where it is now. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
> > Against my better judgment.. :-).. I agree that software today is integral and used to produce pretty much any form of print process today.. So maybe that part was not appropriate...But I think he was coming from a different place. POD printing is a form of production printing that absolutely is not to be considered as a high end print process.. It's functional and effective and works but not appropriate for a real high end expectation in product.. > > These printers are dialed in globally to achieve a level of quality over a broad spectrum of image types.. Thus they typically average out their out put .. To a critical eye this just doesn't work.. A good source can give you acceptable output but in truth you will be willing to accept something less then perfection. This is an easy compromise for some and not so easy for others.. In my own client base I see a broad range of expectation regarding what is acceptable in out put.. > > As far as neutral.. well what's neutral for me might not be neutral for you.. So it's a subjective thing.. I have participated in several POD efforts in the past few years.. In truth it's been a ride.. From "OH my God how could they" to "ya know that's not too bad".. Printing of any kind is a subjective process.. If your on your first POD effort.. it can be challenging.. once you have a relationship with a source it's gets easier. Anyway if your expectations are too high then maybe not the best way to go.. > > jimbo > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: donsbryant@... > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 7:52 AM > Subject: RE: Re: [Digital BW] Monochrome POD Book Publishers > > > > > > > > What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The OP was asking about printing books with POD services. Adobe doesn't enter into it. > > > > > > > > Not so grasshopper.; > > > > > Read Bob's reply. Software is integral to the process and to achieve best results the end user needs to understand what he or she is doing with their software of choice and to have understanding of what the publisher can do and expects from image files. > > > > > Things have progressed quality wise for POD publishers over the past few years. And as I said or excuse me as I tried to imply the process isn't exactly a black box. If at first you don't succeed let the publisher know. That's part of their service. If they fail to please you then move on to another service; there are a lot of them out there so they must be doing something right. It's much like looking for good Pro labs in the film days. Good ones (pod publishers) are pricey. Excellent ones are expensive. > > > > > I might even suggest trying Costco for an affordable alternative for ones personal needs. On the other hand if you plan to sell through photo-eye then one needs to accept the fact that real $$$ are going to be needed. > > > > > Don Bryant > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > From: <donsbryant@> > > > "Sorry but that's not accurate. Using Blurb's CMYK profile and software like InDesign neutral B&W is feasible. The bigger problem is likely to be a shorter dynamic range than one has with photo sensitive or ink jet prints." > > Actually I was speaking from experience specifically with Blurb. Their process is not going to produce a neutral B&W print, unless by complete accident, and even then, it depends on who is looking at the images. There really isn't such a thing as a completely neutral B&W image, especially with their printing method. > > "Besides look at what you are paying for the book. One offs for $50 to $100 aren't going to look like a 600 line repro or even a copy of Lenswork. If you are dissatisfied they will reprint or refund. There are quite a number of POD publishers and Blurb is probably the best know. Google reviews for B&W POD and that will lead you to more information about other publishers." > > Exactly my point. POD publishers all use equipment that simply can't do the job for high end B&W (it is my understanding from talking to a couple of them, that they are all using pretty much the same machinery). It isn't designed for it. > > "So if you subscribe to Adobe CC you will have access to products like InDesign. After stewing over the new licensing model I think CC is a bargain." > > What does that have to do with the topic at hand? The OP was asking about printing books with POD services. Adobe doesn't enter into it. > > > David Kachel > > > ___________________ > > > Artist-Photographer > Fine B&W Photographs > > > www.davidkachel.com > david@ > > > Gallery: > www.reddoorfinephotographs.com > director@ > > > PO Box 1893 > Alpine, TX 79831 > (432) 386-5787 > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6646 - Release Date: 09/07/13 >
2013-09-08 by David Lykes Keenan
2013-09-08 by jimbo
----- Original Message -----From: johnSent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 8:56 AMSubject: Re: [Digital BW] Monochrome POD Book PublishersThat is my understanding too David. The technology is certainly there but the workflow of using monochrome inks has not been utilized by anyone as far as I can see by anyone in the POD high-speed low cost press realm.
As Ernst just mentioned they most likely could specialize in it by using gray inks only with a couple of toner channels for variation, but just aren't. Even using one gray channel could improve things a lot but limiting the process to cmyk is not going to work. There is a reason in the offset days we used duotones in the context of book projects where 4 color was also utilized for the color content, and that involved a separate printing with different inks, stripping, and registration.
The problem for a POD company would be people requesting clean neutral bw in the same book as 4 color, and of course everyone would be screaming for that too and that would be expensive with the technology as it stands now.
But with the huge assortment of competing design companies trying to find a market share you would think that at least one of them would specialize in doing black and white only books. There is surely a market there and some day it will be addressed, but I guess not now.
John
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel wrote:
>
> From: john
>
> But maybe someone is specializing in pod bw photo books. If not I wonder
> why.
>
> It is my understanding that the machines they use are set up to be very
> automated and have limited flexibility.
> They all print color only, so when you send them B&W images those images get
> whatever slight color cast the machine is prone to produce.
> That's why intentionally "toning" your B&W images helps.
>
> Good B&W reproduction requires duotones or tritones. The machines are
> incapable of this. Entirely different process.
>
> I would be delighted to find out I am wrong.
>
>
> David Kachel
>
> ___________________
>
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
>
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@...
>
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@...
>
> PO Box 1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
>No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6647 - Release Date: 09/08/13
2013-09-08 by rene@qx.net
I agree. I think Mag Cloud does the best with B&W that I have seen. BUT, the downside is no hardbacks. Rene
------- Original Message ------- From : David Lykes Keenan[mailto:ausdlk@...] Sent : 9/8/2013 12:18:41 PM To : DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Cc : Subject : RE: [Digital BW] Re: Monochrome POD Book Publishers I've had continued beautiful results with several different titles from both Blurb and HP MagCloud. I'd go with MagCloud exclusively except they don't make hardcover books. Their pricing model makes a lot more sense than Blurb's. My prints tend to be selenium-ish since use Piezography Selenium inks for my prints so maybe I'm not disappointed by wanting to see some other tones in my books. But I've never seen any unwanted color casts in books from either of the sources. . Dave. -- See my 2013 Picture A Week (PAW) Gallery originally begun in 2007. Please join my photography mailing list.
2013-09-08 by Ernst Dinkla
On 09/08/2013 04:56 PM, john wrote: > That is my understanding too David. The technology is certainly there > but the workflow of using monochrome inks has not been utilized by > anyone as far as I can see by anyone in the POD high-speed low cost > press realm. > > As Ernst just mentioned they most likely could specialize in it by using > gray inks only with a couple of toner channels for variation, but just > aren't. Even using one gray channel could improve things a lot but > limiting the process to cmyk is not going to work. There is a reason in > the offset days we used duotones in the context of book projects where 4 > color was also utilized for the color content, and that involved a > separate printing with different inks, stripping, and registration. > > The problem for a POD company would be people requesting clean neutral > bw in the same book as 4 color, and of course everyone would be > screaming for that too and that would be expensive with the technology > as it stands now. > > But with the huge assortment of competing design companies trying to > find a market share you would think that at least one of them would > specialize in doing black and white only books. There is surely a market > there and some day it will be addressed, but I guess not now. > > John John. I renewed a contact with an old friend who still works at a company that now does supply to Blurb. They have done a lot of innovations for POD book manufacturing. Tomorrow I will ask him what the options are and whether it could be interesting to develop more for quality B&W printing. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
2013-09-13 by Ernst Dinkla
On 09/08/2013 04:56 PM, john wrote: > That is my understanding too David. The technology is certainly there > but the workflow of using monochrome inks has not been utilized by > anyone as far as I can see by anyone in the POD high-speed low cost > press realm. > > As Ernst just mentioned they most likely could specialize in it by using > gray inks only with a couple of toner channels for variation, but just > aren't. Even using one gray channel could improve things a lot but > limiting the process to cmyk is not going to work. There is a reason in > the offset days we used duotones in the context of book projects where 4 > color was also utilized for the color content, and that involved a > separate printing with different inks, stripping, and registration. > > The problem for a POD company would be people requesting clean neutral > bw in the same book as 4 color, and of course everyone would be > screaming for that too and that would be expensive with the technology > as it stands now. > > But with the huge assortment of competing design companies trying to > find a market share you would think that at least one of them would > specialize in doing black and white only books. There is surely a market > there and some day it will be addressed, but I guess not now. > > John John, My old friend wrote me that he discussed it with sales of the printing company he works for and that supplies to Blurb. He thinks that the HP Indigo's can actually make a better quality, even in their present configuration, but they are strictly bound to Blurb standards that should guarantee equal quality for Blurb photobooks in any country. Any change at the print plants would require a change at Blurb and that is not likely to happen as it aims at the biggest market share and not at a smaller niche market with a better quality. Whether other companies can do better is the question but many use Indigo's so there is a limit on quality with existing toner sets. There are however improved paper qualities like the reintroduced Felix Schoeller Silver photo paper for Indigo. I think that the only possible competition to Blurb must be a better quality, both in Color and B&W. It is hard to imagine that a lower price/quality could do it. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
2013-09-20 by john
Ernst, I just checked the HP website under Indigo and I see that they DO offer somewhat of a monochrome solution. They offer an optional light gray ink which when added to the black channel could improve bw output significantly (I would think). Apparently you remove one of the color inks ( like the violet or orange :-) ? ) that they add to the cymk set to get to the 97% of pantone gamut. http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/index.jsp?zn=gap&cp=20000-13698-16021^364906_4041_100__ They way I look at this, HP could simply remove the orange and violet and add a mid gray also and have something on the order of what you get with the Z series printers smoothness and neutrality, a high-quality tri-tone with all the toning capabilities. Sure mass companies like Blurb probably wouldn't use it because they would be afraid of relying on only a few of their many outsourced printers using them, but I still don't see why at least one of these many outfits couldn't just use the existing light gray option that HP already offers and specialize in bw books. Hell who needs the damn violet channel anyway for 90% of the work they do. They wouldn't even have to give up doing color. Even beyond all that, they could have super killer bw Indigo workflow by using even more grays than 3. Why not? This POD book making business, and digital press in general is talking over whole publishing business, eventually. As with everything in the printer market, bw is the last thing they consider. John
> John, > > My old friend wrote me that he discussed it with sales of the printing > company he works for and that supplies to Blurb. He thinks that the HP > Indigo's can actually make a better quality, even in their present > configuration, but they are strictly bound to Blurb standards that > should guarantee equal quality for Blurb photobooks in any country. > Any change at the print plants would require a change at Blurb and that > is not likely to happen as it aims at the biggest market share and not > at a smaller niche market with a better quality. > Whether other companies can do better is the question but many use > Indigo's so there is a limit on quality with existing toner sets. There > are however improved paper qualities like the reintroduced Felix > Schoeller Silver photo paper for Indigo. I think that the only possible > competition to Blurb must be a better quality, both in Color and B&W. It > is hard to imagine that a lower price/quality could do it. > > > -- > Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla > > http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm > December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots. >
2013-09-20 by john
It just occurred to me, duh, that some of these pod companies must be using this light gray option. Otherwise why would HP even be promoting it at all? --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
> > Ernst, > > I just checked the HP website under Indigo and I see that they DO offer somewhat of a monochrome solution. They offer an optional light gray ink which when added to the black channel could improve bw output significantly (I would think). Apparently you remove one of the color inks ( like the violet or orange :-) ? ) that they add to the cymk set to get to the 97% of pantone gamut. > > http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/index.jsp?zn=gap&cp=20000-13698-16021^364906_4041_100__ > > They way I look at this, HP could simply remove the orange and violet and add a mid gray also and have something on the order of what you get with the Z series printers smoothness and neutrality, a high-quality tri-tone with all the toning capabilities. > > Sure mass companies like Blurb probably wouldn't use it because they would be afraid of relying on only a few of their many outsourced printers using them, but I still don't see why at least one of these many outfits couldn't just use the existing light gray option that HP already offers and specialize in bw books. Hell who needs the damn violet channel anyway for 90% of the work they do. They wouldn't even have to give up doing color. > > Even beyond all that, they could have super killer bw Indigo workflow by using even more grays than 3. Why not? This POD book making business, and digital press in general is talking over whole publishing business, eventually. As with everything in the printer market, bw is the last thing they consider. > > John > > > > John, > > > > My old friend wrote me that he discussed it with sales of the printing > > company he works for and that supplies to Blurb. He thinks that the HP > > Indigo's can actually make a better quality, even in their present > > configuration, but they are strictly bound to Blurb standards that > > should guarantee equal quality for Blurb photobooks in any country. > > Any change at the print plants would require a change at Blurb and that > > is not likely to happen as it aims at the biggest market share and not > > at a smaller niche market with a better quality. > > Whether other companies can do better is the question but many use > > Indigo's so there is a limit on quality with existing toner sets. There > > are however improved paper qualities like the reintroduced Felix > > Schoeller Silver photo paper for Indigo. I think that the only possible > > competition to Blurb must be a better quality, both in Color and B&W. It > > is hard to imagine that a lower price/quality could do it. > > > > > > -- > > Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla > > > > http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm > > December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots. > > >
2013-09-22 by Ernst Dinkla
On 09/20/2013 03:03 PM, john wrote: > It just occurred to me, duh, that some of these pod companies must be > using this light gray option. Otherwise why would HP even be promoting > it at all? John, Search printing companies on their Indigo configurations or possibly through HP toner supply sources. There are more Indigo's used than the ones that produce for web portals. There is a diversity of Indigo models too; in age, in print sizes and in toner number. Whether you can get the same price per printed page is another matter. An example: http://whattheythink.com/news/61977-cohber-press-celebrates-new-year-new-hp-indigo/ -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
2013-09-22 by jimbo
----- Original Message -----From: Ernst DinklaSent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 5:00 AMSubject: Re: [Digital BW] Monochrome POD Book PublishersOn 09/20/2013 03:03 PM, john wrote:
> It just occurred to me, duh, that some of these pod companies must be
> using this light gray option. Otherwise why would HP even be promoting
> it at all?
John,
Search printing companies on their Indigo configurations or possibly
through HP toner supply sources. There are more Indigo's used than the
ones that produce for web portals. There is a diversity of Indigo models
too; in age, in print sizes and in toner number. Whether you can get the
same price per printed page is another matter.
An example:
http://whattheythink.com/news/61977-cohber-press-celebrates-new-year-new-hp-indigo/
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3408 / Virus Database: 3222/6688 - Release Date: 09/21/13
2013-09-23 by Ernst Dinkla
On 09/22/2013 05:06 PM, jimbo wrote: > Question .. I have seen work off 4 color Indigo's .. and it's not bad > but the fact is they use toners rather then inks.. so how do you guys > sit with that.. Realistically I can't see how they could hit the PPM > numbers their getting with inks but with the little bit I have been > exposed to Toners can't go where inks go ..well at least not yet I > understand and certainly permanence has to suffer. > I realize that the whole concept is about high end production for these > machines but it's at a price.. They are becoming so popular and peoples > brains are getting numbed by lesser quality but good prices.. Won't this > technology contribute somewhat to accepting a lesser quality output? > jimbo Today's best image print quality is not available in any other print technology but silver halide/chromogene and inkjet. Some photo magazines are praised for the quality of their printed images, mainly offset printing. B&W more often in Duotone. In the past B&W with rotogravure had a good reputation. If both versions of an image are shown; the magazine one and the inkjet print, it would surprise me if the viewer/customer would favor the offset quality. And get doubts about the skills of the inkjet printer operator if the offset print is chosen. Photobooks do not exceed the image quality of the best photo magazines right now but could become equal in my opinion. The liquid toner process of the HP Indigo's is quite capable. On the horizon I see web or sheet presses with inkjet technology for the same tasks but even then there will be a difference to what we can achieve on our machines with the best papers, pigment inks, lower speeds and above all the right skills. Since 2009, Cohber Press in Rochester has a Kodak Nexpress (web inkjet) installed as well for photobook production. Inexpensive photobooks will be produced on fast printers and with fast inline bookbinding technology. That bookbinding side may be a major factor in price making and harder to compete with. Yes there is price erosion when canvas prints are made on (eco)solvent printers. But did you ever compare one of your own canvas prints with the solvent product? They simply are not on that quality level and I think mainly because the focus of companies that make them is price, price, price and not as a result of the technology used. This had an impact on the canvas print imago but I do not see it happen in prints on quality papers. The bottom price level of photos is still made with chromogene prints. Are we playing in that field? We wouldn't be at the average color quality of today if customers favored the color quality of the 1950's. We are way beyond that already. The real competition on quality for us is the tablet display, customers will get used to that image quality. The fixed sRGB "calibration" of the tablet displays is consistent and good if compared to the desktop monitor color anarchy. Wonder what people think with the tablet in their lap, a Blurb photobook on the table and an ecosolvent canvas print on the wall. That is happening in the living room. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
2013-09-23 by jimbo
----- Original Message -----From: Ernst DinklaSent: Monday, September 23, 2013 3:56 AMSubject: Re: [Digital BW] Monochrome POD Book PublishersOn 09/22/2013 05:06 PM, jimbo wrote:
We wouldn't be at the average color quality of today if customers
favored the color quality of the 1950's. We are way beyond that already.
The real competition on quality for us is the tablet display, customers
will get used to that image quality. The fixed sRGB "calibration" of the
tablet displays is consistent and good if compared to the desktop
monitor color anarchy. Wonder what people think with the tablet in their
lap, a Blurb photobook on the table and an ecosolvent canvas print on
the wall. That is happening in the living room.
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3408 / Virus Database: 3222/6691 - Release Date: 09/22/13