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Thread
2013-10-14 by Ben Albu
Hi, Has anyone -advanced- experience with setting up soft proofing for black&white printing by using ColorNavigator for Eizo Coloredge monitors? I tried to set up some targets/emulation profiles for printing on matte paper (Canson Rag Photographique), but I am still in doubt about some settings. Thank you, Ben
2013-10-15 by <phlg@...>
2013-10-15 by Ben Albu
Hi Ben,
Could you precise what kinds of settings disturb you ?
---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
Hi,
Has anyone -advanced- experience with setting up soft proofing for
black&;white printing by using ColorNavigator for Eizo Coloredge monitors?
I tried to set up some targets/emulation profiles for printing on matte
paper (Canson Rag Photographique), but I am still in doubt about some
settings.
Thank you,
Ben
2013-10-15 by jimbo
Hi Ben, I went back and read your first post and this one a couple of times.. I think I get what your trying to do but I think that the way the hardware is designed to work you really can't get there with this path.. I am not very gifted with words so hang with me.. Our monitor is an RGB device. The white point we set is a hardware white point that is intended to match a viewing spectrum in this case 5500K .. ..The key here is to realize that when you view B&W on your monitor your monitor is emulating it using RGB technology.. In my mind when you drive the white point to a setting that you feel matches your paper white your throwing a wrench into the works.. The proof of this would be to use the soft proof process in PS which now would not work properly.. It seems your trying to "manually" adjust the monitor to meet a single viewing experience.. Yes you may succeed at achieving the visual for this one particular instance but then wouldn't everything else be incorrect.. So how about a different path to get there..Maximize your hardware to its design intent setting the white point where it should be for 5500k and them build a great profile for that device.. also required will be a printer profile that you feel delivers the bacon for your printer.. When viewing this in the soft proof process in PS if you feel that it is not representing your visual of the print your looking at.. You could then take your monitor profile make a copy of it (The software I use does this automatically in a profile adjustment module) and adjust that profile to match your visual.. Save that profile then your done.. In my mind if you start screwing around with hardware settings it would be to easy to get lost.. I feel that if you have a proper profile for your monitor and also a proper print profile... these are foundation items that you can stand on and get back to.. If you make a copy of the monitor profile and adjust it your in a better position to get to the other side... also it makes sense if you want to print on a material that has a different paper white.. Maybe I'm missing something is what your up too ...if so I apologize for derailing the train.. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Albu
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with Eizo Coloredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
Hi,
I have set up some tests, and they look well but I want to double check if I can improve them.
I work/print in black&white, so greyscale mode.
So I have done this:
I made an emulation ICC profile
I didn't check the 'preserve RGB numbers' option
I choose 'perceptual' for rendering intent
Then I created a new target
I have set the brightness as low as possible (to match the matte paper) > I have set it to 60 cd/m² > If I want to go lower I get a message > Which brightness setting is the best??
I have set the white point to 5500K "daylight temp' > because my "lighting booth" (Kino Flo lamp = 5500K) (By the way, I have some questions about the use of this booth too)
I have set the target black level to the minimum (is this the right value?)
I have set the priority to 'gray balance' (not sure if I should better choose 'standard' or 'contrast'.
Soft proofing is of course possible in Photoshop, but as I see it now, it seems to be much more effective by adjusting the monitor (low brightness, exact white point, ...), and the ICC profile emulation seems to working well.
(but still it is not completely configured well if I compare the prints with the monitor > is this possible anyway?)
Thank you for your help and advice.
Ben
On 15/10/2013 10:05, phlg@... wrote:
Hi Ben,
Could you precise what kinds of settings disturb you ?
---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi,
Has anyone -advanced- experience with setting up soft proofing for
black&white printing by using ColorNavigator for Eizo Coloredge monitors?
I tried to set up some targets/emulation profiles for printing on matte
paper (Canson Rag Photographique), but I am still in doubt about some
settings.
Thank you,
Ben
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6748 - Release Date: 10/14/132013-10-15 by <ben@...>
2013-10-15 by <ben@...>
2013-10-15 by <phlg@...>
2013-10-15 by renato cury
Hi Ben,
Assuming you use a set up as described by Jimbo :
When softproofing in PS are you checking the Paper White and Black Ink boxes ? Is you lighting booth dimmable and strong enough to compare to your screen when the screen is adjusted to 80( or max. 100 ) Cpsm ? In my opinion with a proper setup a white document soft proofed with a good QTR profile ( checking Perceptual with BPC and Paper White and Black Ink ) using a good monitor profile ( gamma 2.2, 80 Csm, white point of your booth, 5500 K in this case, if the bulbs are good ) must match the paper used when you adjust the booth ( not the screen ) for the same intensity of your screen . The color of the paper and it's luminosity will be well represented .
Am I missing anything ?
Renato
>________________________________
> De: "ben@..." <ben@...>
>Para: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Enviadas: Terça-feira, 15 deOutubrode 2013 18:29
>Assunto: RE: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with EizoColoredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
>
>
>
>
>Hi Jimbo,
>
>I made up a linearized printing curve in QTR, customized to my printer and custom inks. Then I converted this profile to an icc profile. I can use this icc profile in Photoshop or in EizoColornavigator to emulate the printing environment. The problem is that the screen is too bright and the paper is very low contrast (matte). So, it doesn't make sense to use soft proofing if the screen contrast is 4 to 5 times higher then the paper I am printing on. That's why I wanted to find out the best screen settings to come close to the paper's specifications (white point, contrast, etc..).
>
>Today I found these articles that describe very well what I want to achieve:
>(but it doesn't give a complete answer to all my questions I still have)
>
>My new CG Monitor and Shadow Details in ICC Profiles
>http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/82/June+2008+-+My+new+CG+Monitor+and+Shadow+Details+in+ICC+Profiles
>
>How to Calibrate an EizoColorEdge Monitor using ColorNavigator
>http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/61/How+to+Calibrate+an+Eizo+ColorEdge+Monitor+using+ColorNavigator
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>
>
>---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>Hi Ben,
>I went back and read your first post and this one a
couple of times.. I think I get what your trying to do but I think that the way
the hardware is designed to work you really can't get there with this path.. I
am not very gifted with words so hang with me..
>
>Our monitor is an RGB device. The white point
we set is a hardware white point that is intended to match a viewing spectrum in
this case 5500K .. ..The key here is to realize that when you view B&W on
your monitor your monitor is emulating it using RGB technology.. In my mind when
you drive the white point to a setting that you feel matches your paper white
your throwing a wrench into the works.. The proof of this would be to use the
soft proof process in PS which now would not work properly.. It seems your
trying to "manually" adjust the monitor to meet a single viewing experience..
Yes you may succeed at achieving the visual for this one particular instance but
then wouldn't everything else be incorrect..
>
>So how about a different path to get
there..Maximize your hardware to its design intent setting the white point where
it should be for 5500k and them build a great profile for that device.. also
required will be a printer profile that you feel delivers the bacon for your
printer.. When viewing this in the soft proof process in PS if you feel that it
is not representing your visual of the print your looking at.. You could then
take your monitor profile make a copy of it (The software I use does this
automatically in a profile adjustment module) and adjust that profile to match
your visual.. Save that profile then your done..
>In my mind if you start screwing around with
hardware settings it would be to easy to get lost.. I feel that if you have a
proper profile for your monitor and also a proper print profile... these are
foundation items that you can stand on and get back to.. If you make a copy of
the monitor profile and adjust it your in a better position to get to the other
side... also it makes sense if you want to print on a material that has a
different paper white..
>
>Maybe I'm missing something is what your up too
...if so I apologize for derailing the train..
>
>jimbo
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: Ben Albu
>>>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:51 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with EizoColoredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>I have set up some tests, and they look
well but I want to double check if I can improve them.
>>>I work/print in
black&white, so greyscale mode.
>>>
>>>So I have done this:
>>>
>>>I made
an emulation ICC profile
>>>
>>>I didn't check the 'preserve RGB numbers' option
>>>
>>>I choose 'perceptual' for rendering intent
>>>
>>>Then I created
a new target
>>>
>>>I have set the brightness as low as possible (to match the
matte paper) > I have set it to 60 cd/m² > If I want to go lower I get a message > Which brightness setting is the best??
>>>
>>>I have set the
white point to 5500K "daylight temp' > because my "lighting booth" (Kino Flo lamp = 5500K) (By the way, I have some questions about the use of this booth too)
>>>
>>>I have set the target black level to the minimum (is this
the right value?)
>>>
>>>I have set the priority to 'gray balance' (not sure
if I should better choose 'standard' or 'contrast'.
>>>
>>>Soft proofing is of
course possible in Photoshop, but as I see it now, it seems to be much more effective by adjusting the monitor (low brightness, exact white point, ...), and the ICC profile emulation seems to working well.
>>>(but still it is not
completely configured well if I compare the prints with the monitor > is
this possible anyway?)
>>>
>>>Thank you for your help and
advice.
>>>
>>>Ben
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 15/10/2013 10:05, phlg@... wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi Ben,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Could you precise what kinds of settings disturb you ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>Has anyone -advanced- experience with
setting up soft proofing for
>>>>black&white printing by using ColorNavigator for EizoColoredge monitors?
>>>>I tried to set up some
targets/emulation profiles for printing on matte
>>>>paper (Canson Rag Photographique), but I am still in doubt about some
>>>>settings.
>>>>
>>>>Thank you,
>>>>
>>>>Ben
>>>
>>>No virus found in this message.
>>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus
Database: 3614/6748 - Release Date: 10/14/13> > >
2013-10-16 by Ben Albu
Hi Ben,
Assuming you use a set up as described by Jimbo :
When softproofing in PS are you checking the Paper White and Black Ink boxes ? Is you lighting booth dimmable and strong enough to compare to your screen when the screen is adjusted to 80( or max. 100 ) Cpsm ? In my opinion with a proper setup a white document soft proofed with a good QTR profile ( checking Perceptual with BPC and Paper White and Black Ink ) using a good monitor profile ( gamma 2.2, 80 Csm, white point of your booth, 5500 K in this case, if the bulbs are good ) must match the paper used when you adjust the booth ( not the screen ) for the same intensity of your screen . The color of the paper and it's luminosity will be well represented .
Am I missing anything ?
Renato
De: "ben@..."
Para: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Enviadas: Terça-feira, 15 de Outubro de 2013 18:29
Assunto: RE: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with Eizo Coloredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
Hi Jimbo,
I made up a linearized printing curve in QTR, customized to my printer and custom inks. Then I converted this profile to an icc profile. I can use this icc profile in Photoshop or in Eizo Colornavigator to emulate the printing environment. The problem is that the screen is too bright and the paper is very low contrast (matte). So, it doesn't make sense to use soft proofing if the screen contrast is 4 to 5 times higher then the paper I am printing on. That's why I wanted to find out the best screen settings to come close to the paper's specifications (white point, contrast, etc..).
Today I found these articles that describe very well what I want to achieve:
(but it doesn't give a complete answer to all my questions I still have)
My new CG Monitor and Shadow Details in ICC Profiles
http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/82/June+2008+-+My+new+CG+Monitor+and+Shadow+Details+in+ICC+Profiles
How to Calibrate an Eizo ColorEdge Monitor using ColorNavigator
http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/61/How+to+Calibrate+an+Eizo+ColorEdge+Monitor+using+ColorNavigator
Ben
---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi Ben,I went back and read your first post and this one a couple of times.. I think I get what your trying to do but I think that the way the hardware is designed to work you really can't get there with this path.. I am not very gifted with words so hang with me..Our monitor is an RGB device. The white point we set is a hardware white point that is intended to match a viewing spectrum in this case 5500K .. ..The key here is to realize that when you view B&W on your monitor your monitor is emulating it using RGB technology.. In my mind when you drive the white point to a setting that you feel matches your paper white your throwing a wrench into the works.. The proof of this would be to use the soft proof process in PS which now would not work properly.. It seems your trying to "manually" adjust the monitor to meet a single viewing experience.. Yes you may succeed at achieving the visual for this one particular instance but then wouldn't everything else be incorrect..So how about a different path to get there..Maximize your hardware to its design intent setting the white point where it should be for 5500k and them build a great profile for that device.. also required will be a printer profile that you feel delivers the bacon for your printer.. When viewing this in the soft proof process in PS if you feel that it is not representing your visual of the print your looking at.. You could then take your monitor profile make a copy of it (The software I use does this automatically in a profile adjustment module) and adjust that profile to match your visual.. Save that profile then your done..In my mind if you start screwing around with hardware settings it would be to easy to get lost.. I feel that if you have a proper profile for your monitor and also a proper print profile... these are foundation items that you can stand on and get back to.. If you make a copy of the monitor profile and adjust it your in a better position to get to the other side... also it makes sense if you want to print on a material that has a different paper white..Maybe I'm missing something is what your up too ...if so I apologize for derailing the train..jimbo----- Original Message -----From: Ben AlbuSent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:51 AMSubject: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with Eizo Coloredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
Hi,
I have set up some tests, and they look well but I want to double check if I can improve them.
I work/print in black&white, so greyscale mode.
So I have done this:
I made an emulation ICC profile
I didn't check the 'preserve RGB numbers' option
I choose 'perceptual' for rendering intent
Then I created a new target
I have set the brightness as low as possible (to match the matte paper) > I have set it to 60 cd/m² > If I want to go lower I get a message > Which brightness setting is the best??
I have set the white point to 5500K "daylight temp' > because my "lighting booth" (Kino Flo lamp = 5500K) (By the way, I have some questions about the use of this booth too)
I have set the target black level to the minimum (is this the right value?)
I have set the priority to 'gray balance' (not sure if I should better choose 'standard' or 'contrast'.
Soft proofing is of course possible in Photoshop, but as I see it now, it seems to be much more effective by adjusting the monitor (low brightness, exact white point, ...), and the ICC profile emulation seems to working well.
(but still it is not completely configured well if I compare the prints with the monitor > is this possible anyway?)
Thank you for your help and advice.
Ben
On 15/10/2013 10:05, phlg@... wrote:
Hi Ben,
Could you precise what kinds of settings disturb you ?
---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
Hi,
Has anyone -advanced- experience with setting up soft proofing for
black&white printing by using ColorNavigator for Eizo Coloredge monitors?
I tried to set up some targets/emulation profiles for printing on matte
paper (Canson Rag Photographique), but I am still in doubt about some
settings.
Thank you,
Ben
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6748 - Release Date: 10/14/13
2013-10-16 by Ben Albu
Hi Jimbo, Why do you have the 'preserve RGB numbers' checked? Why do you leave the priority to 'Standard'? One of the most important things seems to be the contrast ratio (the relation between brightness and black level). If you have a brightness of 80 cd/m� and a black level of 0,2 (standard), then your contrast ratio is 80/0,2 = 400 (400:1), while matte paper has a contrast ratio around (200:1). Ben
On 15/10/2013 23:34, phlg@... wrote: > > > Hi Ben, > > > On my side, the settings are slightly different. For a B&W set up with > K7, I obtain good results between the screen and the prints. > > > So, during the creation of a generic screen profil, the differences: > > > - "preserve RGB numbers" is checked > > - Brightness : 80cd/m� > > - 5000 K > > - priority : Standard > > - no manual adjustment > > > Then, in PS, color space : Adobe RGB, > > and, selection of the differents ICC papers profiles in the soft-proof > section. > > > If it could help... And sorry for my bad English > > > > > ---In digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com, <ben@...> wrote: > > Hi Jimbo, > > I made up a linearized printing curve in QTR, customized to my printer > and custom inks. Then I converted this profile to an icc profile. I > can use this icc profile in Photoshop or in Eizo Colornavigator to > emulate the printing environment. The problem is that the screen is > too bright and the paper is very low contrast (matte). So, it doesn't > make sense to use soft proofing if the screen contrast is 4 to 5 times > higher then the paper I am printing on. That's why I wanted to find > out the best screen settings to come close to the paper's > specifications (white point, contrast, etc..). > > Today I found these articles that describe very well what I want to > achieve: > (but it doesn't give a complete answer to all my questions I still have) > > My new CG Monitor and Shadow Details in ICC Profiles > http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/82/June+2008+-+My+new+CG+Monitor+and+Shadow+Details+in+ICC+Profiles > > How to Calibrate an Eizo ColorEdge Monitor using ColorNavigator > http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/61/How+to+Calibrate+an+Eizo+ColorEdge+Monitor+using+ColorNavigator > > Ben > > > > > ---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, > <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > \ufeff > Hi Ben, > I went back and read your first post and this one a couple of times.. > I think I get what your trying to do but I think that the way the > hardware is designed to work you really can't get there with this > path.. I am not very gifted with words so hang with me.. > > Our monitor is an RGB device. The white point we set is a hardware > white point that is intended to match a viewing spectrum in this case > 5500K .. ..The key here is to realize that when you view B&W on your > monitor your monitor is emulating it using RGB technology.. In my mind > when you drive the white point to a setting that you feel matches your > paper white your throwing a wrench into the works.. The proof of this > would be to use the soft proof process in PS which now would not work > properly.. It seems your trying to "manually" adjust the monitor to > meet a single viewing experience.. Yes you may succeed at achieving > the visual for this one particular instance but then wouldn't > everything else be incorrect.. > > So how about a different path to get there..Maximize your hardware to > its design intent setting the white point where it should be for 5500k > and them build a great profile for that device.. also required will be > a printer profile that you feel delivers the bacon for your printer.. > When viewing this in the soft proof process in PS if you feel that it > is not representing your visual of the print your looking at.. You > could then take your monitor profile make a copy of it (The software I > use does this automatically in a profile adjustment module) and adjust > that profile to match your visual.. Save that profile then your done.. > In my mind if you start screwing around with hardware settings it > would be to easy to get lost.. I feel that if you have a proper > profile for your monitor and also a proper print profile... these are > foundation items that you can stand on and get back to.. If you make a > copy of the monitor profile and adjust it your in a better position to > get to the other side... also it makes sense if you want to print on a > material that has a different paper white.. > > Maybe I'm missing something is what your up too ...if so I apologize > for derailing the train.. > > jimbo > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ben Albu <mailto:ben@...> > *To:* DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:51 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with Eizo > Coloredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software) > > > > Hi, > > I have set up some tests, and they look well but I want to > double check if I can improve them. > I work/print in black&white, so greyscale mode. > > So I have done this: > > I made an emulation ICC profile > > I didn't check the 'preserve RGB numbers' option > > I choose 'perceptual' for rendering intent > > Then I created a new target > > I have set the brightness as low as possible (to match the > matte paper) > I have set it to 60 cd/m� > If I want to go > lower I get a message > Which brightness setting is the best?? > > I have set the white point to 5500K "daylight temp' > > because my "lighting booth" (Kino Flo lamp = 5500K) (By > the way, I have some questions about the use of this booth > too) > > I have set the target black level to the minimum (is this > the right value?) > > I have set the priority to 'gray balance' (not sure if I > should better choose 'standard' or 'contrast'. > > Soft proofing is of course possible in Photoshop, but as I > see it now, it seems to be much more effective by > adjusting the monitor (low brightness, exact white point, > ...), and the ICC profile emulation seems to working well. > (but still it is not completely configured well if I > compare the prints with the monitor > is this possible > anyway?) > > Thank you for your help and advice. > > Ben > > > > > > On 15/10/2013 10:05, phlg@... <mailto:phlg@...> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Ben, >> >> >> Could you precise what kinds of settings disturb you ? >> >> >> >> ---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>, >> <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> >> <mailto:digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Has anyone -advanced- experience with setting up soft >> proofing for >> black&white printing by using ColorNavigator for Eizo >> Coloredge monitors? >> I tried to set up some targets/emulation profiles for >> printing on matte >> paper (Canson Rag Photographique), but I am still in >> doubt about some >> settings. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Ben > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6748 - Release > Date: 10/14/13 > >
2013-10-16 by <phlg@...>
2013-10-16 by renato cury
Hello Ben,
When I asked if your booth was dimmable I was thinking on your Kino Flo, not in a Solux. Kino Flo uses fluorescent bulbs that may be dimmed without changing ( I think ) the color temperature . That is not true for incandescent bulbs likeSolux. If your Kino is not electronically dimmable you may still adjust the intensity of the light that hits the proof by means of a neutral filter ( a dangerous way since "neutral" filters may be not neutral for the color temp. of your bulb ) , using black tape around the bulbs or adjusting the distance from the fixture to the proofs among other possibilities. I'm not sure that Kino lamps, although optimized for shooting are good for softproofing . There are better bulbs for this, like JustNormlicht or GTI. They, both, make lighting booths ( dimmable or not ) but their products although excellents, are a bit expensive for me, so I bought their bulbs ( D50 ) and make my own with
electronic dimmable ballasts from Philips orOsram .
Renato
>________________________________
> De: Ben Albu <ben@...>
>Para: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Enviadas: Quarta-feira, 16 de Outubro de 2013 6:55
>Assunto: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with Eizo Coloredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
>
>
>
>
>Hi Renato,
>
>There are many options and everyone seems to have his/her own
opinion about it.
>
>I think you're right about the lighting booth that it has to
dimmable.
>I found another article on Imagescience wherein they give advice
about lighting solutions to check your prints.
(http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/67/Setting+up+a+Print+Viewing+Area)
>But, I don't understand the logic behind it because there is no
option to adjust the intensity of the light to the screen.
>
>I will send them an email and ask their opinion.
>
>Ben
>
>On 16/10/2013 0:05, renato cury wrote:
>
>
>>Hi Ben,
>>
>>
>> Assuming you use a set up as described by Jimbo :
>>
>>
>> When softproofing in PS are you checking the Paper White and Black Ink boxes ? Is you lighting booth dimmable and strong enough to compare to your screen when the screen is adjusted to 80( or max. 100 ) Cpsm ? In my opinion with a proper setup a white document soft proofed with a good QTR profile ( checking Perceptual with BPC and Paper White and Black Ink ) using a good monitor profile ( gamma 2.2, 80 Csm, white point of your booth, 5500 K in this case, if the bulbs are good ) must match the paper used when you adjust the booth ( not the screen ) for the same intensity of your screen . The color of the paper and it's luminosity will be well represented .
>>
>>
>> Am I missing anything ?
>>
>>
>> Renato
>>
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>> De: "ben@..." <ben@...>
>>>Para: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>>Enviadas: Terça-feira, 15 de Outubro de 2013 18:29
>>>Assunto: RE: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with Eizo Coloredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Jimbo,
>>>
>>>I made up a linearized printing
curve in QTR, customized to my printer and custom inks. Then I converted this profile to an icc profile. I can use this icc profile in Photoshop or in Eizo Colornavigator to emulate the printing environment. The problem is that the screen is too bright and the paper is very low contrast (matte). So, it doesn't make sense to use soft proofing if the screen contrast is 4 to 5 times higher then the paper I am printing on. That's why I wanted to find out the best screen settings to come close to the paper's specifications (white point, contrast, etc..).
>>>
>>>Today I found these articles that
describe very well what I want to
achieve:
>>>(but it doesn't give a complete
answer to all my questions I still
have)
>>>
>>>My new CG Monitor and Shadow Details
in ICC Profiles
>>>http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/82/June+2008+-+My+new+CG+Monitor+and+Shadow+Details+in+ICC+Profiles
>>>
>>>How to Calibrate an Eizo ColorEdge Monitor using ColorNavigator
>>>http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/61/How+to+Calibrate+an+Eizo+ColorEdge+Monitor+using+ColorNavigator
>>>
>>>Ben
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Ben,
>>>I went back and read your first post and this one a couple of times.. I think I get what your trying to do but I think that the way the hardware is designed to work you really can't get there with this path.. I am not very gifted with words so hang with me..
>>>
>>>Our monitor is an RGB device. The white point we set is a hardware white point that is intended to match a viewing spectrum in this case 5500K .. ..The key here is to realize that when you view B&W on your monitor your monitor is emulating it using RGB technology.. In my mind when you drive the white point to a setting that you feel matches your paper white your throwing a wrench into the works.. The proof of this would be to use the soft proof process in PS which now would not work properly.. It seems your trying to "manually" adjust the monitor to meet a single viewing experience.. Yes you may succeed at achieving the visual for this one particular instance but then wouldn't everything else be incorrect..
>>>
>>>So how about a different path to get there..Maximize your hardware to its design intent setting the white point where it should be for 5500k and them build a great profile for that device.. also required will be a printer profile that you feel delivers the bacon for your printer.. When viewing this in the soft proof process in PS if you feel that it is not representing your visual of the print your looking at.. You could then take your monitor profile make a copy of it (The software I use does this automatically in a profile adjustment module) and adjust that profile to match your visual.. Save that profile then your done..
>>>In my mind if you start screwing around with hardware settings it would be to easy to get lost.. I feel that if you have a proper profile for your monitor and also a proper print profile... these are foundation items that you can stand on and get back to.. If you make a copy of the monitor profile and adjust it your in a better position to get to the other side... also it makes sense if you want to print on a material that has a different paper white..
>>>
>>>Maybe I'm missing something is what your up too ...if so I apologize for derailing the train..
>>>
>>>jimbo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: Ben Albu
>>>>>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:51 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with Eizo Coloredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>I have set up some tests,
and they look well but I
want to double check if I
can improve them.
>>>>>I work/print in
black&white, so greyscale mode.
>>>>>
>>>>>So I have done this:
>>>>>
>>>>>I made an emulation ICC
profile
>>>>>
>>>>>I didn't check the
'preserve RGB numbers' option
>>>>>
>>>>>I choose 'perceptual' for
rendering intent
>>>>>
>>>>>Then I created a new
target
>>>>>
>>>>>I have set the brightness
as low as possible (to
match the matte paper)
> I have set it to 60 cd/m² > If I want to go lower I get a message > Which brightness setting is the best??
>>>>>
>>>>>I have set the white point
to 5500K "daylight temp'
> because my "lighting
booth" (Kino Flo lamp = 5500K) (By the way, I have some questions about the use of this booth too)
>>>>>
>>>>>I have set the target
black level to the minimum
(is this the right value?)
>>>>>
>>>>>I have set the priority to
'gray balance' (not sure
if I should better choose
'standard' or 'contrast'.
>>>>>
>>>>>Soft proofing is of course
possible in Photoshop, but as I see it now, it seems to be much more effective by adjusting the monitor (low brightness, exact white point, ...), and the ICC profile emulation seems to working well.
>>>>>(but still it is not
completely configured well
if I compare the prints
with the monitor > is
this possible anyway?)
>>>>>
>>>>>Thank you for your help
and advice.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ben
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 15/10/2013 10:05, phlg@... wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Ben,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Could you precise what kinds of settings disturb you ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Has anyone
-advanced-
experience with
setting up soft
proofing for
>>>>>>black&white
printing by using ColorNavigator for Eizo Coloredge monitors?
>>>>>>I tried to set up
some
targets/emulation
profiles for
printing on matte
>>>>>>paper (Canson Rag Photographique), but I am still in doubt about some
>>>>>>settings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thank you,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>
>>>>>No virus found in this message.
>>>>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus
Database: 3614/6748 -
Release Date: 10/14/13>>> >>> > > > >
2013-10-17 by <tyler@...>
let me interject something here that I hope will not confuse matters.. some of the terminology used in this thread leaves me a bit confused as to exactly what you are doing or trying to do. I use an Eizo ColorEdge, rather than play with very low brightness settings which may compress information too much, I set the brightness to 80, and when doing critical matching alter the light on the proof print to match as closely as possible. I do use "paper white" in PS often when doing this, I've had no real problem. I calibrate and profile the monitor to 5500, despite constantly paying with that setting over the years, the hue never seems an exact match. That has not been an obstacle to making good prints, I just keep my softproof expectations reasonable.
The "preserve color numbers" issue I can address more precisely. WHen you use a printing system like QTR, or Ergosoft monochrmatic environments, they are linearized to a 2 dimensional standard, like a curve or whatever, rather than an ICC profile. Hence you are not printing through an ICC profile with these workflows. You can, however, make an ICC profile with Roy's tools or other methods, that CHARACTERIZE that linearized printing system, to be used for soft proofing. It's worth pointing out again, that profile will not be used for printing, or in the printing data path, linearization has already been taken care of. But the profile is very useful for softproofing, hence you use it with preserve color numbers checked, to preview how the system prints and possibly make edits to the file accordingly.
If you are using a system that is color managed, with an ICC workflow and profile, and that profile WILL be used in the printing data path, you soft proof using it without checking "preserve color numbers" to give you a preview of the setup converted to that profile.
I hope that's clear and addresses some of the thread issues...
Tyler
http://tylerboley.com/
http://www.custom-digital.com/
It was not Jimbo,
"Why do you have the 'preserve RGB numbers' checked?
Why do you leave the priority to 'Standard'?"
I can't answer you precisely, my knowledges are too limited in this field. I made it a few months ago, essentially in empirical manner. Technical reading, trials, errors, correcting, etc.
About the brightness, Color Navigator give me a value around 340cd/m². However, the black level is well set to 0,2. May be due to the aging, I don't know.
Not sure that a strict application of theory is the best way to obtain effective results, unless your calcul involve all elements implied in the equation.
Pascal
On 15/10/2013 23:34, phlg@... wrote:
Hi Ben,
On my side, the settings are slightly different. For a B&W set up with K7, I obtain good results between the screen and the prints.
So, during the creation of a generic screen profil, the differences:
- "preserve RGB numbers" is checked
- Brightness : 80cd/m²
- 5000 K
- priority : Standard
- no manual adjustment
Then, in PS, color space : Adobe RGB,
and, selection of the differents ICC papers profiles in the soft-proof section.
If it could help... And sorry for my bad English
---In digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com, <ben@...> wrote:
Hi Jimbo,
I made up a linearized printing curve in QTR, customized to my printer and custom inks. Then I converted this profile to an icc profile. I can use this icc profile in Photoshop or in Eizo Colornavigator to emulate the printing environment. The problem is that the screen is too bright and the paper is very low contrast (matte). So, it doesn't make sense to use soft proofing if the screen contrast is 4 to 5 times higher then the paper I am printing on. That's why I wanted to find out the best screen settings to come close to the paper's specifications (white point, contrast, etc..).
Today I found these articles that describe very well what I want to achieve:
(but it doesn't give a complete answer to all my questions I still have)
My new CG Monitor and Shadow Details in ICC Profiles
http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/82/June+2008+-+My+new+CG+Monitor+and+Shadow+Details+in+ICC+Profiles
How to Calibrate an Eizo ColorEdge Monitor using ColorNavigator
http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/questions/61/How+to+Calibrate+an+Eizo+ColorEdge+Monitor+using+ColorNavigator
Ben
---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi Ben,I went back and read your first post and this one a couple of times.. I think I get what your trying to do but I think that the way the hardware is designed to work you really can't get there with this path.. I am not very gifted with words so hang with me..Our monitor is an RGB device. The white point we set is a hardware white point that is intended to match a viewing spectrum in this case 5500K .. ..The key here is to realize that when you view B&W on your monitor your monitor is emulating it using RGB technology.. In my mind when you drive the white point to a setting that you feel matches your paper white your throwing a wrench into the works.. The proof of this would be to use the soft proof process in PS which now would not work properly.. It seems your trying to "manually" adjust the monitor to meet a single viewing experience.. Yes you may succeed at achieving the visual for this one particular instance but then wouldn't everything else be incorrect..So how about a different path to get there..Maximize your hardware to its design intent setting the white point where it should be for 5500k and them build a great profile for that device.. also required will be a printer profile that you feel delivers the bacon for your printer.. When viewing this in the soft proof process in PS if you feel that it is not representing your visual of the print your looking at.. You could then take your monitor profile make a copy of it (The software I use does this automatically in a profile adjustment module) and adjust that profile to match your visual.. Save that profile then your done..In my mind if you start screwing around with hardware settings it would be to easy to get lost.. I feel that if you have a proper profile for your monitor and also a proper print profile... these are foundation items that you can stand on and get back to.. If you make a copy of the monitor profile and adjust it your in a better position to get to the other side... also it makes sense if you want to print on a material that has a different paper white..Maybe I'm missing something is what your up too ...if so I apologize for derailing the train..jimbo----- Original Message -----From: Ben AlbuSent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:51 AMSubject: Re: [Digital BW] RE: Softproofing with Eizo Coloredge monitors (via ColorNavigator software)
Hi,
I have set up some tests, and they look well but I want to double check if I can improve them.
I work/print in black&white, so greyscale mode.
So I have done this:
I made an emulation ICC profile
I didn't check the 'preserve RGB numbers' option
I choose 'perceptual' for rendering intent
Then I created a new target
I have set the brightness as low as possible (to match the matte paper) > I have set it to 60 cd/m² > If I want to go lower I get a message > Which brightness setting is the best??
I have set the white point to 5500K "daylight temp' > because my "lighting booth" (Kino Flo lamp = 5500K) (By the way, I have some questions about the use of this booth too)
I have set the target black level to the minimum (is this the right value?)
I have set the priority to 'gray balance' (not sure if I should better choose 'standard' or 'contrast'.
Soft proofing is of course possible in Photoshop, but as I see it now, it seems to be much more effective by adjusting the monitor (low brightness, exact white point, ...), and the ICC profile emulation seems to working well.
(but still it is not completely configured well if I compare the prints with the monitor > is this possible anyway?)
Thank you for your help and advice.
Ben
On 15/10/2013 10:05, phlg@... wrote:
Hi Ben,
Could you precise what kinds of settings disturb you ?
---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi,
Has anyone -advanced- experience with setting up soft proofing for
black&white printing by using ColorNavigator for Eizo Coloredge monitors?
I tried to set up some targets/emulation profiles for printing on matte
paper (Canson Rag Photographique), but I am still in doubt about some
settings.
Thank you,
Ben
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6748 - Release Date: 10/14/13