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Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-02-27 by highdefs@...

I finally received my Epson Pro3880. It's an exchange for teaching classic photography to a few talented students.

Printer was sitting unused for months. I got all the nozzles cleared. It has the infamous PK issue. For those readers not familiar with the case, many 3880s have a problem with photo black as such the printer ink monitor is showing the normal usage of the PK but in reality the PK cart gets flushed to the maintenance tank in one quick dump without being registered by printer- and all along Epson has been claiming the issue is rare. It is what it is!


As suggested on inkjet mall's site, I was dreaming of converting this printer to Jon Cone piezography for printing " Negative and Positive " . Considering the PK is not useable in my 3880 is it possible to do only Negative or Positive with it and just let the PK to dry-out and die a slow death without affecting the rest of the print head? Does piezography system rely on PK location in 3880 ?

Re: [Digital BW] Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-02-27 by Don Nelson

Contact Jon at inkjet mall.com
He regularly maps out bad nozzles and still allows excellent b&w prints with his piezeography inks
Don


Sent from my iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Feb 26, 2015, at 9:55 PM, highdefs@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> I finally received my Epson Pro3880. It's an exchange for teaching classic photography to a few talented students.
>
> Printer was sitting unused for months. I got all the nozzles cleared. It has the infamous PK issue. For those readers not familiar with the case, many 3880s have a problem with photo black as such the printer ink monitor is showing the normal usage of the PK but in reality the PK cart gets flushed to the maintenance tank in one quick dump without being registered by printer- and all along Epson has been claiming the issue is rare. It is what it is!
>
>
>
> As suggested on inkjet mall's site, I was dreaming of converting this printer to Jon Cone piezography  for printing " Negative and Positive " . Considering the PK is not useable in my 3880 is it possible to do only Negative or Positive with it and just let the PK to dry-out and die a slow death without affecting the rest of the print head? Does piezography system rely on PK location in 3880 ?

>
>
>
>

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-02-27 by brian_downunda@...

This is probably a question best asked on Jon Cone's IJM forum.

I don't have a 3880, but I have used piezo for a number of years in smaller printers and I know people who use it in the 3880.

In the default K7 setup, you have both an MK shade 1 and a PK shade 1. Typically you use MK on Matte and PK on gloss (unsurprisingly). So in that default setup, you'll only be able to print on Matte. Or perhaps only on gloss if you put the PK shade 1 in the MK slot and lie to the printer about the paper you're using. Whatever, you won't be able to swap from MK shade 1 to PK shade 1.

There are a number of possible solutions if you also want to print on gloss. The one that I would use is to put an ink called "Warm Neutral Opaque Photo Black Shade 1" in the K slot. Although it's intended for gloss, there is very little dMax loss on matte and a number of people (incl yours truly) use it as a universal black, rather than swapping and wasting ink. Despite its name, it's neutral, rather than warm (it comes as part of a warm neutral ink set, but shade 1 in piezo is (almost?) always neutral).

What concerns me most about what you're proposing is the age and condition of the printer. I've seen reports of people who have tried to convert smaller desktop printers to piezo that were old but working with OEM, and have failed. The problem is not piezo per se, but these smaller desktop printers with their more complex ink carts can sometimes function well enough with OEM carts, but give problems with refillables (leaking and draining). If this happens, and printer cleaning together with following the filling instructions exactly don't solve the problem (sometimes that's enough), then you're stuck with OEM rather that piezo or ConeColor.

The carts for the 3880 are much simpler without the complex venting of the smaller carts, and therefore you may not have these problems. But the fact that PK is behaving badly is not a good sign. You may be well advised to follow the IJM instructions about printer cleaning using piezoflush solution and perhaps also replace the ink dampers and lines.

The easiest introduction to piezo is to commit a new printer to it, but I know that's quite a commitment, and you already have a printer that you want to use. My two have been new and it's worked well for me, and I know a user with a brand new piezo 3880 that is working well.

I'd strongly advise you to post on the IJM forum and get Dana C's advice. She is very helpful and very experienced on the issues you raised. Note that you may need to wait a day or two for a response.

p.s. there is another possible solution, which is the soon to be released Piezography 2. Another good reason to post on IJM and ask.

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-02-27 by jon@...

InkjetMall can remap the Piezography curves so that the black channel or any missing channel/s are avoided.

In your case, you still have seven other ink channels in the 3880. As long as they are printing perfectly, there is no reason why the printer can not be used as a Piezography printer. You could run it as a K7 printer and run matte only. Or you could run it as a baryta/glossy only printer. You would not have enough ink channels to do both at the same time.

You could still lose another channel and we could map it for K6. You can lose up to three channels and run the digital negative system. And finally when all else is lost and you have 4 or fewer channels remaining - we can turn it into a gloss overprint printer and you can buy another Epson...

We are turning a lot of discarded printers into useful b&w printers. It's almost at the point now where you can get a 7900 or a 9900 for absolutely free from very frustrated post-Epson users.

You only need 5 channels for dig neg.
You need a minimum of 6 channels for Piezography matte

best,

Jon Cone
Piezography

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-02-27 by brian_downunda@...

What's wrong with the warm-neutral black as a universal shade 1 idea?


---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <jon@...> wrote :

In your case, you still have seven other ink channels in the 3880. As long as they are printing perfectly, there is no reason why the printer can not be used as a Piezography printer. You could run it as a K7 printer and run matte only. Or you could run it as a baryta/glossy only printer. You would not have enough ink channels to do both at the same time.

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-02-28 by highdefs@...

The conversion to piezography will happen on this 3880. That was the main part of proposal to the original owners. I have promised this printer will be used for educational purposes and I think piezography serves the purpose.
Here and there I have read that occasionally, during flushing stages with piezo-flush some of nasty issues with print head, dampers and sealers go away. I'm going to do the flushing first with my fingers crossed. If the PK remains troublesome, then we will proceed with mapping out that channel.

Is the " mapping out " service a costly one ? As Brian mentioned after all this is an older machine and more issues might come up soon.

At this point students are excited to start printing piezography and all our paper stock is matt. If there is a way to get around the PK dumping issue, I will place the order in a heartbeat.

Thank you Jon for taking time to reply

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-02-28 by highdefs@...

Brian,
I'm heading to IJM now. As I said before I've taken so much of their time with my NOOOB questions I'm afraid I will get kicked out.

Could you provide link to "Warm Neutral Opaque Photo Black Shade 1" ? Do I have to flush the OEM before mounting this ? What ever it is, it's a genius idea. I like to experiment with it as converting to piezography might not be easy on this 3880.

Thanks again

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-02-28 by brian_downunda@...

Well, the ink I'm referring to is this one
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/it.A/id.6108/.f?sc=15&category=60906#crv_reviews
This is actually a link to Tyler Boley's review of it. I can post other links that comment on using it as a universal black, if you're interested. I don't understand why IJM don't make a bigger play of this.

If you're really going to only print on matte and the other channels are fine then you don't have a problem. The 3880 has both PK and MK carts installed, as I understand it, and you switch between them. So this problem doesn't affect the MK channel, is that right? If that's the case then you put either matte shade 1 or opaque photo shade 1 in that MK slot and the normal piezo shades in the other slots and off you go. No problems. If you use use the opaque shade 1 then you can also print on gloss as you lie to printer and QTR about the paper you're using.

If on the other hand you can't use either the MK or PK slot them you will need to do as Jon suggests and get them to do some channel remapping for you. I defer to him on this. I know how it's done but I've never had to do it. Also, if you have just seven working channels then you will have the choice of K7 with no GO, so no gloss printing, or K6 + GO, which would allow gloss printing. If you only have six working channels then it's K6 on matte only.

Working with a channel remapped printer requires even more care than usual, as you're not putting the inks in the usual positions, i.e. you don't follow the standard filling instructions any more.

B.


---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <highdefs@...> wrote :

Brian,
I'm heading to IJM now. As I said before I've taken so much of their time with my NOOOB questions I'm afraid I will get kicked out.

Could you provide link to "Warm Neutral Opaque Photo Black Shade 1" ? Do I have to flush the OEM before mounting this ? What ever it is, it's a genius idea. I like to experiment with it as converting to piezography might not be easy on this 3880.

Thanks again

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-01 by brian_downunda@...

I didn't answer your question about flushing OEM before switching to piezo. The answer is yes. I've not owned a printer with ink lines like the 3880, but my understanding is that if you can trigger an "initial load" that will get you most of the way there, or otherwise several power cleans. You may also need to print the colour out of some or the light shades & GO. The IJM site has instructions on how to use QTR to print "purge patterns" that target one ink channel only,

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-04 by jon@...

If your black channel can not be used - then its not difficult for you to remap the curves yourself. We charge $100 to do it for you, or I can tell you how.

Selenium Shade 1 black is our neutral universal black and you could install it and do a Piezography 2 on the printer where we reduce it to six shades of black and also a Gloss Overprint.

We first formulated Universal Black in 2005 for Roland which used it and four additional Piezography shades along with Epson C, LC, M, LM, Y, O & G to form their 12 ink Giclée printer. One black for both matte and glossy. We've changed it a few times since 2005 and we now call it Selenium Shade 1 (but it's neutral) - and its specs are a bit better than the warm version Photo Black. WN1 is opaque for film - and is warm with non-Piezography use - such as single black or with StudioPrint. Here are the 100% patches from Calibration mode in QTR:


dMax Comparison Matte Paper



Hahnemuhle Photo Rag paper

L value

dMax

Warm Neutral Shade 1

23.34

1.409

Selenium Shade 1

16.41

1.661

Neutral Shade 1

17.33

1.625

ConeColor PRO Matte Black

17.92

1.602

Epson Ultrachrome K3 Matte Black

16.83

1.645

dMax Comparison Baryta Paper



JonCone Studio Type 5 paper

L value

dMax

Warm Neutral Shade 1

2.6

2.385

Selenium Shade 1

10.79

1.909

ConeColor PRO Photo Black

3.56

2.319

Epson Ultrachrome K3 Photo Black

8

2.053


Running Sel 1 as a Universal Black would give you a dynamite system and we have K6 curves for the 3800 / 3880. Also have them now for the 7800/7880 or 4800/4880 - even the R2880. anyone losing channels and we can usually help...


Contact me at InkjetMall if you want or I will check back here. And forums are for asking questions especially if you are noob. That's why they exist! :)


best,


Jon Cone

Piezography

InkjetMall

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-04 by jeff.grant@...

Jon,

I'm away from my inks at the moment, but my recollection is that the Selenium Shade 1 is what I got for a gloss black when I got a complete set of inks for my 3880. On the IJM site it states that a dMax of up to 2.8 is possible, yet the numbers you have quoted in the last post indicate that the Sel is the weakest of the gloss inks.

Am I missing something? If the Sel is a universal ink, why wouldn't I just buy it and not buy separate matte and gloss shade 1s? I want to buy a new set of inks before the $A goes any further South so I'm really interested in resolving this.

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-04 by brian_downunda@...

There are some aspects of those numbers that puzzle me.

1. The WN Opaque 1 number seems very low, and not consistent with my own results. I just printed a series (row) of patches of 100% density of this ink in calibration mode and took a series of 14 measurements and dmax varied from 1.595 to 1.610, with an average of 1.605 (before drying - can't access the hairdryer right now - so this might improve in the morning). Is there perhaps a typo in your numbers or is this WN result of 1.409 an aberration?

2. What's the difference between Selenium Shade 1, which is neutral, and Neutral Shade 1? I assume you mean glossy neutral and matte neutral. Is that right?

3. Are these numbers posted anywhere on the IJM site?

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-04 by richard@...

You can't use the 100% patch value to determine dmax of shade 1 inks. From all the sets of measurements I have done perfecting my profiling process and tools (maybe over a hundred in the last few months) there is a noticeable drop off between where the ink hits the dmax and the 100% patch. With the STS MK, (one set of measurements I have at hand) It can be as bad as dropping from 1.72 at the 40% patch to 1.55 at the 100% patch.

Here is a post I wrote last year about comparing the (older) MIS MK to the Piezo MK. Note that I made these measurements with my wonky 1430 and is the reason for the weird shaped curve. The 3800 with the Piezography shade 1 doesn't have the weird jump at the 10%-15% patches. I'm doing a follow-up post using a hybrid set using the STS MK, and the Peizo Carbon in shade 2-6. I think the Cone inks have a much better color and density distribution from shade to shade than the MIS inks (and can be trusted to be consistent from batch to batch).

Comparing Cone Piezography Shade 1 and MIS Ebony Shade 1



Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-05 by brian_downunda@...

Jeff, I suggest that you reread that parallel thread and climb back out of your box, at least for a while longer.

Richard's point about density loss from overloading is well taken. But it only really applies if you're after *absolute* measurements, such as if you're comparing papers or different ink systems. All I'm really after is a *relative* comparison of the dmax of the various piezography shades 1 on the same paper (HPR since that is what Jon used for his numbers). I want to know whether there's any point to swapping one K7 shade 1 for another, or whether I can use one of them as a universal shade 1. So my numbers implicitly assume that the degree of overloading doesn't change between the various K7 shades 1. I confess that this is an untested assumption.

After a night of drying, my dmax is 1.660 (average of 14 readings). Based on my measurement, WN Opaque 1 is pretty much exactly the same as Selenium 1 (Jon's measurement of 1.661), and as WN 1 is better on gloss I think *it's* the clear choice.

That said, as Jon pointed out on IJM, printing 100% black using a piezography curve combines 4-5 shades with shade 1 making only a minor contribution, so the dmax of shade 1 is not necessarily a guide to the dmax achieved in practice. This makes a universal black even more feasible and sensible. It also means that if you want to do a real world test of alternative systems like K7 and Eb6 you're probably better off printing the 21x4 chart and comparing the density you get in practice, rather than simply comparing the ink separation charts printed in QTR calibration mode.

I hope some of this is of interest to the OP.

Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-05 by jon@...

In terms of the differences between our blacks, they may be of more interest to those not using Piezography K6 or K7 curves.

In traditional QTR use made with QTR Curves Tool, or with black ink only printing - much more black ink is used than with a Piezography-made K6 or K7 curve. First, the linearization process I use is much different than the linearization process in QTR. What I am trying to do is get maximum separation of gray values including right up to dMax. Necessarily, I use very little black ink whereas dMax is made from 3-4 shades of black. Study one of my curves and you can visually see how this separation of tone occurs and you can see how little of shade 1 is actually responsible for dMax. Only just enough is...

So, 100% patches of single black never occur. Not even mostly a single black. Of the combined amount of ink in a typical K7 glossy curve at dMax (about 130%) - 30% is black shade 1, 43% shade 2, 33% shade 3, 18% shade 4 and 5% shade 5.

In a typical QTR curve - there would be much more black. Piezography uses two shades of darker ink than the typical LK. So, more shadow separation in values near L0 - such as L1, L2, L3, etc printing with detail. I can get the same dMax as other process, but am able to print with more shadow detail this way. Also, I do the same at the high end of things with two additional lighter shades than LLK.

So, dMax can actually exceed that of a naked or slightly supported pure black this way, and produce a greater separation of darkest grays.

Drying time is critical - as the amount of ink Piezography prints is typically 30-40% more across the board and therefore it needs dry time - and it picks up about 1/3 to 1/2 stop more dMax. A hair dryer is very efficient in just seconds whereas overnight drying is not quite enough to bring out the pick up in dMax.

The biggest comparison in K6 vs Eb6 is the side by side photograph judgement. It's not just numbers - but the ink itself. Eb6 does not use an encapsulated pigment particle (it matters), does not print with as much ink (it matters), and does not have as much separation of detail (it matters), and does not print with as much acuity (it matters). Finally, the grind and narrow distribution of particle size in Piezography ink creates a more uniformity in the reflected light back to the viewer (for some the most important). Encapsulation is a very expensive process, but it allows one more benefits than just isolating the static charge of the particle. More filtering is required and I think that benefit of having nearly all the same particle sizes is one of our best benefits in terms of how light is absorbed and reflected. That has to be seen to be appreciated.

A Piezography print produced from my curves really needs to be seen to be understood in how its different from ABW or Eb6 or any other monochromatic process for that matter. Numbers do not reveal quality. Piezography is more comparable to a platinum/palladium print (but with much more shadow detail). That glow of the pt/pd is present in a Piezography print because of the proprietary pigment treatment. And in that regard, dMax is not the absolute target. Much more its about the entire range of tone that is possible and desirable. Yet dMax is quite good.

Having said all that - there may be some benefit to using Piezography single blacks that have gone unused. We do not have a Paul Roarke to take our inks and make alternative workflows. We have never been approached and typically my users want my solution.

Piezography shades 1, 4 & 5 follow Epson black, LK and LLK.

K6 adds two darker and one lighter
K7 adds two darker and two lighter

Hope this makes more sense out of black.

Regards,

Jon Cone
Piezography
InkjetMall

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-05 by Elliot Puritz

Having used Piezography inks in both the K6 and K7 versions and compared prints made with such inks to the EB6 inks using publicly available profiles I have to agree with Jon.

 

One must state that it is not that the prints made with EB6 inks are bad; it is simply that the prints made with Piezography inks using the excellent Cone profiles are to my eyes superior.  I might add that without actually seeing prints of the same image made on the same paper using the different inks that such differences will not be apparent.  One needs to have the two prints side by side in the same light, etc.  Evaluating and comparing prints via the computer monitor is impossible. 

 

The usual caveats apply:  There might be those that prefer the look of prints made with EB6 inks, feel that the prints made with the EB6 provides superior tonal separation, chose the EB6 inks for other reasons, etc.. Needless to say, it is not my intention to criticize such individuals for their choice of workflow

 

Elliot
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 9:41 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

 

  

In terms of the differences between our blacks, they may be of more interest to those not using Piezography K6 or K7 curves.

 

In traditional QTR use made with QTR Curves Tool, or with black ink only printing - much more black ink is used than with a Piezography-made K6 or K7 curve. First, the linearization process I use is much different than the linearization process in QTR. What I am trying to do is get maximum separation of gray values including right up to dMax. Necessarily, I use very little black ink whereas dMax is made from 3-4 shades of black. Study one of my curves and you can visually see how this separation of tone occurs and you can see how little of shade 1 is actually responsible for dMax. Only just enough is...

 

So, 100% patches of single black never occur. Not even mostly a single black. Of the combined amount of ink in a typical K7 glossy curve at dMax (about 130%) - 30% is black shade 1, 43% shade 2, 33% shade 3, 18% shade 4 and 5% shade 5.

 

In a typical QTR curve - there would be much more black. Piezography uses two shades of darker ink than the typical LK. So, more shadow separation in values near L0 - such as L1, L2, L3, etc printing with detail. I can get the same dMax as other process, but am able to print with more shadow detail this way. Also, I do the same at the high end of things with two additional lighter shades than LLK.

 

So, dMax can actually exceed that of a naked or slightly supported pure black this way, and produce a greater separation of darkest grays.

 

Drying time is critical - as the amount of ink Piezography prints is typically 30-40% more across the board and therefore it needs dry time - and it picks up about 1/3 to 1/2 stop more dMax. A hair dryer is very efficient in just seconds whereas overnight drying is not quite enough to bring out the pick up in dMax.

 

The biggest comparison in K6 vs Eb6 is the side by side photograph judgement. It's not just numbers - but the ink itself. Eb6 does not use an encapsulated pigment particle (it matters), does not print with as much ink (it matters), and does not have as much separation of detail (it matters), and does not print with as much acuity (it matters). Finally, the grind and narrow distribution of particle size in Piezography ink creates a more uniformity in the reflected light back to the viewer (for some the most important). Encapsulation is a very expensive process, but it allows one more benefits than just isolating the static charge of the particle. More filtering is required and I think that benefit of having nearly all the same particle sizes is one of our best benefits in terms of how light is absorbed and reflected. That has to be seen to be appreciated. 

 

A Piezography print produced from my curves really needs to be seen to be understood in how its different from ABW or Eb6 or any other monochromatic process for that matter. Numbers do not reveal quality. Piezography is more comparable to a platinum/palladium print (but with much more shadow detail). That glow of the pt/pd is present in a Piezography print because of the proprietary pigment treatment. And in that regard, dMax is not the absolute target. Much more its about the entire range of tone that is possible and desirable. Yet dMax is quite good.

 

Having said all that - there may be some benefit to using Piezography single blacks that have gone unused. We do not have a Paul Roarke to take our inks and make alternative workflows. We have never been approached and typically my users want my solution. 

 

Piezography shades 1, 4 & 5 follow Epson black, LK and LLK. 

 

K6 adds two darker and one lighter

K7 adds two darker and two lighter

 

Hope this makes more sense out of black.

 

Regards,

 

Jon Cone

Piezography

InkjetMall

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-05 by Paul Roark

Not having a 3800, I have not paid a lot of attention to this thread, but a few comments might be in order now.

With respect to print quality comparisons between Eboni-6 and the Piezo systems, they go both ways. The quality of the profile is certainly one very important variable. Not being in the business of selling inks or profiles, I tend to simply publish what I use. This puts more onus on the Eb6 user to re-linearize or update, particularly during the last year when Eboni was in transition after the death of the IS founder. STS Inks appears to have stabilized the product now, but those older Eb6 profiles need to be relinearized by users. I have done a few, and they are marked with "STS" currently. (I should get around to re-labeling them, but again, I'm not in that business.)

I do favor the single very high density black ink at the 100% point. The reason is for depth of dmax and relative lack of bleed. There can be a big difference there. The latest tweak of the generic dilution base, in fact, was totally about minimizing bleed to enhance sharpness, particularly on watercolor paper.

While MIS has capitalized most on what I publish, what I publish is for the entire community. Former darkroom workers as well as large institutional printers are the most likely to use many of my approaches and results of my testing. At this point in my journey, I'm really most interested in the ultimate B&;W print, though making it reasonably affordable to all is still an important criteria for me. How to balance that criteria with my other interest in having competitive commercial dedicated B&W vendors has been a challenge. Publishing the formulas for the generic dilutions bases hit MIS rather hard, but I felt it was too important to the field to hold back. The ironic twist is that they decided to make money off it by mixing and selling them.

Looking forward and along these lines, one item that is in my fade tester now that might be of particular interest to the B&W purists is a comparison of the 100% carbon Eb6 test strip to one make by an inkset composed of 6 densities of Epson K3 MK. That MK pigment is so tough that at 220 Mlux-hours of light exposure in Mark's http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ testing the 100% MK density actually increased! And it's not just one isolated test; it's a pattern. Imagine NO fade after 100 years of display.

FWIW

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-05 by Jacques Caron

Totally agree!!!

I'm working with a 1430 and Eb6 and the final result is all that matters.

My prints (all matte papers) are looking quite nice! Numbers are good but… looking at the final print is the definitive evaluation step.

Since I'm canadian, buying a set of inks (Eb-6) at 120$ or so and the John Cone's inks 450$ plus for the same printer, there is a big difference!!! That difference is showing on prints??? I don't think so!

I'm what you call a "former darkroom worker" and "Ultimate" is not my goal either.

As far as fade factor involved, I'm quite satisfied with 100 years. Asa photographer, I won't go into history so 100 years is pretty good!

Cheers

Le 2015-03-05 à 12:08, "Paul Roark roark.paul@gmail.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> a écrit :


Not having a 3800, I have not paid a lot of attention to this thread, but a few comments might be in order now.

With respect to print quality comparisons between Eboni-6 and the Piezo systems, they go both ways. The quality of the profile is certainly one very important variable. Not being in the business of selling inks or profiles, I tend to simply publish what I use. This puts more onus on the Eb6 user to re-linearize or update, particularly during the last year when Eboni was in transition after the death of the IS founder. STS Inks appears to have stabilized the product now, but those older Eb6 profiles need to be relinearized by users. I have done a few, and they are marked with "STS" currently. (I should get around to re-labeling them, but again, I'm not in that business.)

I do favor the single very high density black ink at the 100% point. The reason is for depth of dmax and relative lack of bleed. There can be a big difference there. The latest tweak of the generic dilution base, in fact, was totally about minimizing bleed to enhance sharpness, particularly on watercolor paper.

While MIS has capitalized most on what I publish, what I publish is for the entire community. Former darkroom workers as well as large institutional printers are the most likely to use many of my approaches and results of my testing. At this point in my journey, I'm really most interested in the ultimate B&W print, though making it reasonably affordable to all is still an important criteria for me. How to balance that criteria with my other interest in having competitive commercial dedicated B&W vendors has been a challenge. Publishing the formulas for the generic dilutions bases hit MIS rather hard, but I felt it was too important to the field to hold back. The ironic twist is that they decided to make money off it by mixing and selling them.

Looking forward and along these lines, one item that is in my fade tester now that might be of particular interest to the B&W purists is a comparison of the 100% carbon Eb6 test strip to one make by an inkset composed of 6 densities of Epson K3 MK. That MK pigment is so tough that at 220 Mlux-hours of light exposure in Mark's http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ testing the 100% MK density actually increased! And it's not just one isolated test; it's a pattern. Imagine NO fade after 100 years of display.

FWIW

Paul


Jacques Caron

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-05 by Elliot Puritz

To repeat: Obviously no argument with any who use Eboni inks and whatever profiles they desire.

As I stated, everyone has their own preferences. If the print is as they desire and they are completely satisfied then stay with what works.

Elliot

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 12:41 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

Totally agree!!!

I'm working with a 1430 and Eb6 and the final result is all that matters.

My prints (all matte papers) are looking quite nice! Numbers are good but\u2026 looking at the final print is the definitive evaluation step.

Since I'm canadian, buying a set of inks (Eb-6) at 120$ or so and the John Cone's inks 450$ plus for the same printer, there is a big difference!!! That difference is showing on prints??? I don't think so!

I'm what you call a "former darkroom worker" and "Ultimate" is not my goal either.

As far as fade factor involved, I'm quite satisfied with 100 years. Asa photographer, I won't go into history so 100 years is pretty good!

Cheers

Le 2015-03-05 à 12:08, "Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> a écrit :



Not having a 3800, I have not paid a lot of attention to this thread, but a few comments might be in order now.

With respect to print quality comparisons between Eboni-6 and the Piezo systems, they go both ways. The quality of the profile is certainly one very important variable. Not being in the business of selling inks or profiles, I tend to simply publish what I use. This puts more onus on the Eb6 user to re-linearize or update, particularly during the last year when Eboni was in transition after the death of the IS founder. STS Inks appears to have stabilized the product now, but those older Eb6 profiles need to be relinearized by users. I have done a few, and they are marked with "STS" currently. (I should get around to re-labeling them, but again, I'm not in that business.)

I do favor the single very high density black ink at the 100% point. The reason is for depth of dmax and relative lack of bleed. There can be a big difference there. The latest tweak of the generic dilution base, in fact, was totally about minimizing bleed to enhance sharpness, particularly on watercolor paper.

While MIS has capitalized most on what I publish, what I publish is for the entire community. Former darkroom workers as well as large institutional printers are the most likely to use many of my approaches and results of my testing. At this point in my journey, I'm really most interested in the ultimate B&W print, though making it reasonably affordable to all is still an important criteria for me. How to balance that criteria with my other interest in having competitive commercial dedicated B&W vendors has been a challenge. Publishing the formulas for the generic dilutions bases hit MIS rather hard, but I felt it was too important to the field to hold back. The ironic twist is that they decided to make money off it by mixing and selling them.

Looking forward and along these lines, one item that is in my fade tester now that might be of particular interest to the B&W purists is a comparison of the 100% carbon Eb6 test strip to one make by an inkset composed of 6 densities of Epson K3 MK. That MK pigment is so tough that at 220 Mlux-hours of light exposure in Mark's http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ testing the 100% MK density actually increased! And it's not just one isolated test; it's a pattern. Imagine NO fade after 100 years of display.

FWIW

Paul

Jacques Caron

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-06 by jon@...

I was trying to pay you a compliment Paul, :) when I said we do not have a Paul Roarke to take our products and repurpose them. I hope you took it that way! I think that what you have done for the community is great and commendable and has increased interest in b&w inkjet. So, I definitely applaud you. And you and I have worked together only politically! We should be again right now if your are following ITC-337 events in Washington. If not - please email me and I can fill you in.

I think that that which gives InkjetMall it's strength is that it is owned by two photographer/artists (Cathy and I) who have invested heavily into manufacturing infrastructure (Vermont PhotoInkjet) to suit the needs of their studio (Cone Editions Press). And Cone Editions remains the single largest customer of VPI inks. We have a dozen printers going constantly for clients. Hard to imagine a world without Piezography and we invested this year in 9 new large format printers - some of which will not be installed until perhaps 2020. I do look that far and wonder if Epson will still be making piezo-electric print heads or if Business Inkjet will take their attention away from photo and fine art.

The curves profiler we developed gives us a unique opportunity to provide curves to Roy Harrington that he can provide with the download of QTR but he does not have to provide support for. Our customers get the benefit of not having to linearize or struggle on their own, etc. Because I control our ink manufacturing we do not have to deal with changes and everything is very standardized as a result - and the results are very good. But, they are definitely my cup of tea. I control the appearance of K7 and K6 output. So I take the place of someone like you. And it takes a lot of my time - and I participate in three companies. And I am a practicing photographer usually 1000s exposures a month. I sleep little. I wish I had someone like you so I could pursue more of my own personal dreams and visions. But, I do feel everything that I do is very worthwhile and I love that others are able to pursue their passions from my work. So, I am not complaining at all. Never! I feel I am the luckiest and most fortunate b&w photographer alive. And as a printmaker - I could not dream for a better existence. Just wish I had more time.

This week I have been doing what any enthusiast does, designing a new digital negative based upon UV densitometry specifically for platinum and palladium printing. I'm doing this not to sell it as a product - but because Cone Editions Press is putting in a large format platinum/palladium studio and I am proofing it on a 1430 printer. I got bit by the noble metals in Santa Fe and they will not relinquish their hold on me. My time might be better spent marketing or finding new customers, etc for InkjetMall or finding new ink customers for Vermont PhotoInkjet. But, this is what I like most to do. I love development for my studio. I always have.

Sometimes, I wish we had you or someone like you, and our products development centered around the time and interest of someone else other than me. But, we only have me and I deliver the type of systems I like to print with and the type of systems my clients like to print with me. Not all of my things become products. But, the ones with long legs (as they say) do.

Much of my time now is developing inks for others. I have less time to finish my projects than I used to. Piezography PRO is delayed because of that. Or I should say - that I put my selfish interests in this platinum negative ahead of it. That is the short of it. I can only do so much as one person and still administer VPI, IJM and CEP.

I think that the balance in being an artist and wishing to serve others as well - is finding a way to sustain it. So commercializing off it is, in some ways, and ironically, a way to allow art to flourish. I am my own benefactor, my own supporter, my own sponsor. Something inside of me - something inherited most likely from my grandfather (Ben Davis) allowed me to do this duality of the artistic nature.

What you might do - is consider to have your own line which you can more control. You can always email me about that. Bridges are always open to my studio and to my resources!

Best,

Jon Cone
Piezography
InkjetMall


Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-06 by Paul Roark

Jon,

Not to worry, I did not take anything you said as negative.

I have not followed the ITC Section 337 investigations.

My main problem with all third party B&W inks is that the great carbon that is available to that segment deserves great color pigments to pull it neutral when needed. At this point, I don't think the market will believe that any third party color is in that category. I hope you've noticed the dilution and worked the numbers on the toner formula I'm proposing. My fade test will take a few months to show results, but if they are good, you might recall that the first custom ink mix was a Variable Tone Piezo. (See what's left of the history at http://www.spinics.net/lists/epson/old/2001_01/msg02842.html -- the more things change, the more they stay the same.)

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Pro3880 with troubled Photo Black ( PK ) for Piezography

2015-03-06 by jon@...

Paul,

I am sorry but I am not aware of the things that you are doing with toner formulas. I am aware that you do mix a lot of different things together and provide your own workflows. I am not aware of any process in which we overlap in any way that is similar. Some day, we should have a beer or a coffee as I do not think (or I can not remember) that we have actually met.

Keep up the great work!

Best,

Jon




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