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New process, new ink, new printer?

New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-09 by Sylvain M.

Hi all, 

I wish you all a happy new photographic year! 
I'm still running with my (old) SP 1400 equiped with Eboni 1.0 (I have
some stock), but it's time to think about the next step. Unfortunately I
will have to change the ink in a short term, and the printer in a medium
term, having in mind that the 1400 is not very robust. Changing to new
inks on my 1400 will probably not make any sense...In order to save time
and secure my digital lab, I'm thinking about buying a new printer and
equip it with new inks in order to configure this new system while my
current one is still running. 
So the questions are... 
1. Which new printer (A3+ or, why not, A2+)? 
2. Which new carbon ink? 

I know that my questions are quite wide open but I really need to make a
brain storming before making up my mind... 

-- 

Sylvain M.

Re: [Digital BW] New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-09 by Paul Roark

Happy New Year Sylvain (and others),

In terms of value, I still think the 1400 series is excellent for dedicated B&W inksets. Like the 2 1400s I had, my 1430 almost never has anything but a perfect nozzle ckech no matter how long it has been left un-used. I can't say that for the 7800 and 9800 I have.

Among the printers I have, Eboni and its dilutions remains the most reliable and clog free. I suspect it's simply that no binder in the dilution base (at least the generic c6b I use) is part of the reason for this. The glossy carbon inkset I now use is about twice as likely to have a gap in the nozzle check when left idle for 10 days. I'd call the gloss carbon inkset rather "normal" in this respect.

I have been using the Noritsu/Claria dyes for a while now, and they are great for some things, but I don't consider them a serious B&W inkset.

As far as I know, any Epson printer can use third party B&W inks if you can get good empty carts for it. So, the availability of good empty carts is a primary factor in printer selection.

As to size, physical room for a large printer is a limiting factor for many. If room is not a factor, then for wall display, the old 16x20 size remains a reasonable target for most. A good condition 3880 or 4880 might be high on my list for that size. In my own use, jumping to the 7800 size (24") is a major step in inconvenience. I would only recommend such for very serious printers.

As is obvious from my current inksets, I'm a fan of all carbon plus one toner. The Canon based formula probably makes the best neutral prints possible in terms of delta-e. If neutral is the only target tone, then dilute HP will take the prize for lowest Lab A and B movement.

For glossy, the glossy carbons from MIS and STS have naturally low bronzing because the gloss optimizer is built in. On the other hand, they do not do high gloss the way the OEM pigments (or dyes) can.

Good luck with your search.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 12:50 AM, 'Sylvain M.' sylvain@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I wish you all a happy new photographic year!

I'm still running with my (old) SP 1400 equiped with Eboni 1.0 (I have some stock), but it9;s time to think about the next step. Unfortunately I will have to change the ink in a short term, and the printer in a medium term, having in mind that the 1400 is not very robust. Changing to new inks on my 1400 will probably not make any sense...In order to save time and secure my digital lab, I'm thinking about buying a new printer and equip it with new inks in order to configure this new system while my current one is still running.
So the questions are...
1. Which new printer (A3+ or, why not, A2+)?
2. Which new carbon ink?
I know that my questions are quite wide open but I really need to make a brain storming before making up my mind...
-- 
Sylvain M.


Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-10 by paulmwhiting@...

Based on your work on the 1400 series and your development of the Ebon-6 inkset (and the mix your own offshoot, the Carbon-6 inkset) I've gone this route and have been been very happy with the results. Seems to be a very popular setup here, thank you for your work on it.

I have to ask you a very basic question re: clogs. I've posted this elsewhere so's not to bother you with such elemental issues but the usual techniques for dealing with clogs are not working. And I've gotten pretty good at the various approaches if I do say so! Shoe-shining, inkpad, wiper blade, etc.

The issue is that my black position, K, "clogs" very easily, while the other positions are always perfect in my first nozzle check of the day. It only takes 1 or at the most 2 head cleans for the K position to clear up. If I take a break for a few hours, the K often shows clogging again.

I recently acquired a 1430, both to use when I need a color pint and as a backup b/w printer when my 1400 finally wears out. When the OEM carts ran out I installed InkJet Mall's InkThrift CL color carts, using their empty refillable carts. Went well for quite a while but then the same issue, a "clogged" K position.

The only thing I can think of is that the 100% black ink (Eboni in the 1400 and ??? in the 1430) is richer in pigments and this ink "clogs" more easily. I put "clog" in quotes because some people argue that strictly speaking the ink is not clogging but that air bubbles are impeding the flow.

Thanks, Paul. I exhausted other resources before having to ask you this.

Paul W.

Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-10 by paulmwhiting@...

Paul R.,

PS: I said "The issue is that my black position, K, "clogs" very easily". Let me make that stronger. I would say the first nozzle check of the day almost always shows a "clogged" K position.

Paul W.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-10 by Paul Roark

Consistent with your experience, my experience is that one of the major factors in clogging is the ink load -- how much of the ink is particles v. fluid. The MK is the highest. It typically clogs the most. This is probably true within any "family" of inks.

The quality of the printer is also a major factor. My 1400s and current 1430 can go a very long time with no clogs anywhere. It might relate to how well sealed the head is when it's parked. Unlike my 1400 family printers, my 7800 will sometimes show a clogged K after a two week sit. It clears easily, however -- until the head totally crashes, which it just did. There does come a time, depending on printer and degree of abuse (including from thick artsy papers and media), that the head, etc. will no longer clean. For me, that's simply a cost of doing business that is spread over enough prints such that it's not a major factor in my per print costs.

Old carts can also be a source of problems -- all rubber parts lose elasticity, including the seals and sometimes internal filters. Leaky seals can cause bubbles; disintegrating internal sponges clog heads. That said, I've had very good luck with modern empty, refillable carts; they last for years.

Pigment dispersant (not the suspension medium or "clear base") appears to slowly oxidize. The pigments then start to clump ("flocculate"). These larger particles start to fall out of suspension and can contribute to clogs. Don't use ink that is too old. Since the large particles settle faster, don't pull pigment from an old bottle just after agitating it; wait a day for settlement and then avoid the very bottom of the bottle.

There are lots of factors and possibilities for problems, but overall and on average, our modern inks and printers deliver very good results.

Good luck with the printing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-11 by paulmwhiting@...

Very helpful Paul, thank you.

It's when I read about your clog-free experiences with the 1400 series printers that I get envious. Is it possible there's some variance in quality from one printer to another? I could see that.

As for quality of carts... I've been using InkjetMall's carts, mainly for their chips. They are manually resettable (you have to use their inexpensive resetter), which I like. In fact a while back you asked me in this group what carts I was using. It was a thread having to do with printers not recognizing new carts and my success with IJM carts elicited a question from you as to where I got them... which made me feel pretty good!

Are you at liberty to mention where you get yours? Right about the time of that thread, MIS was having trouble filling orders and supplying carts that were compatible. Eventually I did get a set from them that were quite good so perhaps MIS is over that hump. I've also heard good things about Precision Colors carts, out of Toronto.

Finally I'm going to pay closer attention to my capping station's sealing edges. I must confess I've been giving them just a once over lightly.

I just pulled out three of my recent prints and propped them up in the living room. I must say they simply pop. I was using your Carbon 6 homebrew version of Eboni 6 and continue to use Premier Art 205 gsm paper. I'm very pleased.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-11 by Paul Roark

Paul W.,

I'm sure there is some variance among the individual printers of the same model, though I've had 3 good 1400 series and no bad ones.

I usually buy MIS carts for desktop printers and STS for wide format. (Empty, refillable carts may not be on the STS web page; contact me off list if you need a contact there.)

I used Jon's 3880 carts and never got around to the beta test of MIS's versions. They appeared to be the same.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-11 by Sylvain M.

Thank you for your answer, Paul. 

It is always a great pleasure to read your posts, plenty of expertise
and experience. 

INKS
If I understand well what you wrote, there is no real alternative to
Eboni if one is willing to stay on "pure carbon" (if we except
Piezography, of course). What is your feeling about Eboni 1.1? Is it
worth investing on them? 
By the way I tried the glossy carbon ink from MIS, and I found it very
warm. I did not find any glossy finart paper able to make it more or
less neutral (such as Epson Hot Press bright, for example). 

PRINTERS
The 3880 is actually a good machine. But I wonder if it will not be
obsolete soonr?
Anyway it is a pity that the new "cartridgeless" Epson printers cannot
be used for carbon inks... :( It would really have been perfect. But
maybe one day? ---

Sylvain M.

Le 2017-01-09 16:36, Paul Roark roark.paul@...
[DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] a �crit : 

> Happy New Year Sylvain (and others), 
> 
> In terms of value, I still think the 1400 series is excellent for dedicated B&W inksets. Like the 2 1400s I had, my 1430 almost never has anything but a perfect nozzle ckech no matter how long it has been left un-used. I can't say that for the 7800 and 9800 I have. 
> 
> Among the printers I have, Eboni and its dilutions remains the most reliable and clog free. I suspect it's simply that no binder in the dilution base (at least the generic c6b I use) is part of the reason for this. The glossy carbon inkset I now use is about twice as likely to have a gap in the nozzle check when left idle for 10 days. I'd call the gloss carbon inkset rather "normal" in this respect. 
> 
> I have been using the Noritsu/Claria dyes for a while now, and they are great for some things, but I don't consider them a serious B&W inkset. 
> 
> As far as I know, any Epson printer can use third party B&W inks if you can get good empty carts for it. So, the availability of good empty carts is a primary factor in printer selection. 
> 
> As to size, physical room for a large printer is a limiting factor for many. If room is not a factor, then for wall display, the old 16x20 size remains a reasonable target for most. A good condition 3880 or 4880 might be high on my list for that size. In my own use, jumping to the 7800 size (24") is a major step in inconvenience. I would only recommend such for very serious printers. 
> 
> As is obvious from my current inksets, I'm a fan of all carbon plus one toner. The Canon based formula probably makes the best neutral prints possible in terms of delta-e. If neutral is the only target tone, then dilute HP will take the prize for lowest Lab A and B movement. 
> 
> For glossy, the glossy carbons from MIS and STS have naturally low bronzing because the gloss optimizer is built in. On the other hand, they do not do high gloss the way the OEM pigments (or dyes) can. 
> 
> Good luck with your search. 
> 
> Paul 
> www.PaulRoark.com [1] 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 12:50 AM, 'Sylvain M.' sylvain@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi all, 
>> 
>> I wish you all a happy new photographic year! 
>> I'm still running with my (old) SP 1400 equiped with Eboni 1.0 (I have some stock), but it's time to think about the next step. Unfortunately I will have to change the ink in a short term, and the printer in a medium term, having in mind that the 1400 is not very robust. Changing to new inks on my 1400 will probably not make any sense...In order to save time and secure my digital lab, I'm thinking about buying a new printer and equip it with new inks in order to configure this new system while my current one is still running. 
>> So the questions are... 
>> 1. Which new printer (A3+ or, why not, A2+)? 
>> 2. Which new carbon ink? 
>> 
>> I know that my questions are quite wide open but I really need to make a brain storming before making up my mind... 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Sylvain M.
>> 
>> 
 

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Re: [Digital BW] New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-11 by Paul Roark

Sylvain,

>INKS ...If I understand well what you wrote, there is no real alternative to Eboni if one is willing to stay on "pure carbon" (if we except Piezography, of course). What is your feeling about Eboni 1.1?

There is no carbon ink I know of that is the same as or as neutral as the old, original Eboni MK and it's dilutions. Eboni 1.1 is said to be the same carbon grind, but with a state of the art dispersant. That may be true, but the new dispersant made it more like the other MK inks. It's still slightly more neutral that the others I tested, but there is a reason I added the light blue toner. I concluded it was still the best place to start.


>I tried the glossy carbon ink from MIS, and I found it very warm. I did not find any glossy finart paper able to make it more or less neutral (such as Epson Hot Press bright, for example).

Inkjet carbon (i.e., carbon that is finely ground) is warm by nature, except when it's at the 100% black point. On inkjet paper (coated paper) it's warmer than when on a paper like Arches. Glossy carbon is warmer than matte carbon. And when glossy carbon is on glossy inkjet paper, it's very warm. I, too, have found no way to make a neutral glossy 100% carbon print. The good news is that with the Canon based light blue toner, the print can be more stable than a silver print.


>PRINTERS ... The 3880 is actually a good machine. But I wonder if it will not be obsolete soon?

I'd worry about availability of carts for the replacement printers. Are they out yet? If we can get carts and if QTR supports the printer, then any Epson is probably a viable platform.


> [I]t is a pity that the new "cartridgeless" Epson printers cannot be used for carbon inks...


See https://epson.com/i/C11CE71201. That black ink 774 is a carbon ink that appears to dilute well with the generic base. It's slightly warmer than Eboni 1.1, but if all else fails, we have an Epson carbon source that is very inexpensive. That may be particularly relevant in non-US markets where Eboni MK may not be easily available. With no QTR support (among other things) I'm not sure the printer is appropriate for serious B&W, but I'd guess it and the other ET printers will work with carbon inks. I have used them in my WorkForce 1100 for many years (though I now have Noritsu dyes in it).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-12 by ssanking@...

Paul,

Since neutral tone prints seem to be desired by inkjet printers It is somewhat surprising to me that none of the ink suppliers for inkjet printing market the more neutral Lampblack (PBk 6). In carbon transfer printing we use this pigment for neutral tone (or slightly bluish black) prints. Lamp black is a variant of Carbon Black (PBk 7) that is very stable and unaffected by light, acids and alkalis. Some types of PBk 6 may have a brownish black tone similar to PBk7, but the bluish black is more common.

Sandy


There is no carbon ink I know of that is the same as or as neutral as the old, original Eboni MK and it's dilutions. Eboni 1.1 is said to be the same carbon grind, but with a state of the art dispersant. That may be true, but the new dispersant made it more like the other MK inks. It's still slightly more neutral that the others I tested, but there is a reason I added the light blue toner. I concluded it was still the best place to start.
Inkjet carbon (i.e., carbon that is finely ground) is warm by nature, except when it's at the 100% black point. On inkjet paper (coated paper) it's warmer than when on a paper like Arches. Glossy carbon is warmer than matte carbon. And when glossy carbon is on glossy inkjet paper, it's very warm. I, too, have found no way to make a neutral glossy 100% carbon print. The good news is that with the Canon based light blue toner, the print can be more stable than a silver print.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-12 by Brubaker family

Hi Paul,

Can you elaborate on the time frame it takes for the ink dispersant to oxidize?

Mike Brubaker

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/10/17, Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: New process, new ink, new printer?
 To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
 Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2017, 1:50 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       Consistent with your experience, my
 experience is that one of the major factors in clogging is
 the ink load -- how much of the ink is particles v. fluid. 
 The MK is the highest.  It typically clogs the most.  This
 is probably true within any "family" of inks.
  
 The quality of the printer is also
 a major factor.  My 1400s and current 1430 can go a very
 long time with no clogs anywhere.  It might relate to how
 well sealed the head is when it's parked.  Unlike my
 1400 family printers, my 7800 will sometimes show a clogged
 K after a two week sit.  It clears easily, however -- until
 the head totally crashes, which it just did.  There does
 come a time, depending on printer and degree of abuse
 (including from thick artsy papers and media), that the
 head, etc. will no longer clean.  For me, that's simply
 a cost of doing business that is spread over enough prints
 such that it's not a major factor in my per print
 costs.
 Old carts can also be a source of
 problems -- all rubber parts lose elasticity, including the
 seals and sometimes internal filters.  Leaky seals can
 cause bubbles; disintegrating internal sponges clog heads. 
 That said, I've had very good luck with modern empty,
 refillable carts; they last for years.
 Pigment dispersant (not the
 suspension medium or "clear base") appears to
 slowly oxidize.  The pigments then start to clump
 ("flocculate").  These larger particles start to
 fall out of suspension and can contribute to clogs. 
 Don't use ink that is too old.  Since the large
 particles settle faster, don't pull pigment from an old
 bottle just after agitating it; wait a day for settlement
 and then avoid the very bottom of the bottle.
 There are lots of factors and
 possibilities for problems, but overall and on average, our
 modern inks and printers deliver very good
 results.
 Good luck with the
 printing.
 Paulwww.PaulRoark.com 
 
 
     
      
 
     
     
 
 
 
 #yiv4448268380 #yiv4448268380 --

Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-12 by paulmwhiting@...

Paul,

It's been a few days since you posted your helpful comments.... among those was to be sure and use quality refillable carts in good shape because the rubber (plastic? Neoprene?) seal at the exit port can age and allow air to enter... thus causing air blockages which give the appearance of a blog. Here's another possible cause for a poor seal at the exit port:

I ran across this post on another forum and the writer suggests cutting away excess cellophane around the perimeter of the exit port, thus allowing a more air-tight seal. Go down the posts and see the photos posted by one Larryb:

https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/an-easy-clog-to-clear-on-one-cleaning-but-still-a-nuisance.11243/page-4

What do you think? I experimented with a defunct cart. to get the hang of it. Haven't tried it on my cart in the K position. Looks promising.

Paul W.

Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-12 by jeff.grant@...

I have just applied Larry's idea to the carts on my R2000 running K6. I have had regular missing segments and leaking carts since day one and have replaced a couple along the way. I hope that Larry is right. I'll report back. I'm really hoping this works. K3 with Epson inks would be so much less painful.

Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-13 by paulmwhiting@...

Jeff, yes, please post your results. I didn't try these just yet, am in the middle of an ink system change. I'm moving from Paul R's classic Eb6 inkset to his current modification including a cooling mix in the yellow position. My Eboni 1.1 will be fresher and I'm hopeful this might help the initial issue I raised in my OP. If not, I'll take another look at Larry's suggestion. He's had good luck with it and it does show promise.

Paul W.

Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-13 by jeff.grant@...

That didn't take long. I have just restored my R2000. It has been sitting with flush carts. It came up perfectly when I reloaded my ink carts that had been modified as suggested by Larry. I made one A3 print and left it overnight. This morning the PK cart is missing 12 segments. A second nozzle check shows all OK.

I don't think that there is a lot that can be concluded at this stage. I'll keep on monitoring events. My carts are all IJM battery models which I bought in the vain hope that they would be trouble-free.

Re: [Digital BW] New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-13 by Paul Roark

Sandy,

I'm not sure if there is a different form of carbon that can be prepared for inkjets and be as neutral or cool as some of the carbon pigments that are available for other, non-inkjet purposes. On the other hand, since the OEMs don't use such a pigment, I'd guess there is no practical, more neutral carbon pigment for inkjets.

One apparent factor in the warmth of the carbon is the size of the particle. It may be that some of the carbons that watercolorists use that are neutral or cool are composed of particles that are much too large for inkjets.

It may also be that in order to stay in suspension lighter forms of carbon are needed, and maybe these forms are warmer.

I use only pigments that are already prepared for inkjet use. Moreover, from the perspective of the founder of MIS, when we looked at a potential pigment I'd found that made a single-color carbon offset, the volume we'd use in the B&W niche was too small to be economical. So, as a practical matter, our little niche is stuck with using pigments that are being prepared and used for the color market.

If someone knows of an inkjet carbon pigment that is neutral or cool *when diluted* (they are all relatively neutral at 100%) I would be very interested. Again, however, I would guess that if such a carbon existed, Epson, Canon and HP would use it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 8:01 AM, ssanking@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Paul,

Since neutral tone prints seem to be desired by inkjet printers It is somewhat surprising to me that none of the ink suppliers for inkjet printing market the more neutral Lampblack (PBk 6). In carbon transfer printing we use this pigment for neutral tone (or slightly bluish black) prints. Lamp black is a variant of Carbon Black (PBk 7) that is very stable and unaffected by light, acids and alkalis. Some types of PBk 6 may have a brownish black tone similar to PBk7, but the bluish black is more common.

Sandy


There is no carbon ink I know of that is the same as or as neutral as the old, original Eboni MK and it's dilutions. Eboni 1.1 is said to be the same carbon grind, but with a state of the art dispersant. That may be true, but the new dispersant made it more like the other MK inks. It's still slightly more neutral that the others I tested, but there is a reason I added the light blue toner. I concluded it was still the best place to start.

Inkjet carbon (i.e., carbon that is finely ground) is warm by nature, except when it's at the 100% black point. On inkjet paper (coated paper) it's warmer than when on a paper like Arches. Glossy carbon is warmer than matte carbon. And when glossy carbon is on glossy inkjet paper, it's very warm. I, too, have found no way to make a neutral glossy 100% carbon print. The good news is that with the Canon based light blue toner, the print can be more stable than a silver print.


Re: [Digital BW] Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-13 by Paul Roark

​Mike,


​>Can you elaborate on the time frame it takes for the ink dispersant to oxidize?
​
I rely on the expiration dates on the inks. I suspect they set those dates largely on whatever the rate of oxidation is, and that will vary with the particular dispersant technology. On the other hand, those dates are conservative. The companies know that the inks can be in the cart and printer for a long time after the retail sale.

Early in this inkjet era I noticed that partially used old original Eboni pint bottles collapsed in notably. I wondered what this was, since the carbon was supposed to be so "archival." Now I assume that was the oxygen being pulled out of the air in the bottle by the dispersant oxidation, not that of the pigment particle.

Frankly, I don't worry about the issue that much, but if I'm way over the expiration date, I don't use the ink.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text

Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-13 by paulmwhiting@...

That's encouraging Jeff, thanks for the feedback. What I've been experiencing is that a simple cleaning does the job, but 24 hours later, ie the next day, the "clogs" are back. I say clogs in quotes because the incomplete lines in the nozzle check are in this case not ink but more likely air pockets in the cartridge and/or head. Larry's technique apparently eliminates a source for those air pockets.

Let's see how it looks tomorrow am!

Paul W.

Re: New process, new ink, new printer?

2017-01-20 by jeff.grant@...

After a few days of good nozzle checks, the rot has set in again. For the last two days, I have had a couple of missing segments in the PK cart. Today, that moved to the R cart with about two lines missing. I then ran another nozzle check and then had about 2 missing lines in the R and PK carts. I ran an inksep which showed a blob of ink as well as the inksep. The next nozzle check was good. I pulled the carts to see if any had leaked. So far there is no obvious leak.

I think that we can conclude from this that Larry's technique is not the answer for IJM carts. My take is that IJM carts have an unacceptably high rate of air leaks.

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