Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-17 by Mark Tucker

--- Alan Zinn <AZinn@...> wrote:
> In other words I mix a batch of CMY to achieve sepia
> or brown, lower its
> value with black and use that for the tinting base. 

Alan,

It's Sunday morning, and you're talking the Devil's
Talk! Caution, young man, attempting to go where no
man has gone before. Even with Paul's guidance with
the off-the-shelf VM's, look how many posts are about
getting the curve tweaked just right. You are entering
the Black Hole of Much Time Lost. Just be forewarned
-- there ain't customer service for where you're about
to go...

Rev. Tucker

.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-17 by Martin Wesley

Alan,

One of the interesting things to do is to go into the Photoshop custom color
mixer, find a brown you like and look at the CYM and luminance numbers. It
appears like you could get a nice chocolate brown with just Y and M with the
appropriate amount of neutral black.

I have been playing with the Sepia-VM set and you can get some rather nice
browns with this, so you might want to check this out before you start
mixing your own.

As time permits I want to play with this by adjusting the amount and ratio
of Y and M in the toner position ink. One thing Paul has cautioned me about
is that the inks don't go together in a tidy, linear fashion and quite a bit
of trial and error may be required. If several of us work on different
approaches we should come up with a wonderful array of choices. Anything I
discover, good or bad, I will post.

Martin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Zinn" <AZinn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 10:31 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] making brown ink


> Mixologists,
>
> I have looked at the custom tinting section on the MIS pages and have a
> question.  As I understand it the hue for making a custom-toned ink set is
> controled only in the yellow position.
>
> If one were making a Van Dyke or sepia set of inks wouldn't the darkest
> value of brown then become the "black" base from which all the other tints
> are made?
>
> In other words I mix a batch of CMY to achieve sepia or brown, lower its
> value with black and use that for the tinting base.
>
> thanks,
>
> AZ
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

making brown ink

2002-03-17 by Alan Zinn

Mixologists,

I have looked at the custom tinting section on the MIS pages and have a
question.  As I understand it the hue for making a custom-toned ink set is
controled only in the yellow position.

If one were making a Van Dyke or sepia set of inks wouldn't the darkest
value of brown then become the "black" base from which all the other tints
are made?

In other words I mix a batch of CMY to achieve sepia or brown, lower its
value with black and use that for the tinting base.  

thanks,

AZ

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-17 by Sam A. McCandless

I got a nice chocolate brown from the MIS VM Sepia-Neutral inkset. I 
forgot to change an RGB file to grayscale and back again before 
curving the file. As a result a creek which had been running green 
began to run chocolate while a bright yellow tree at the water's edge 
turned a lovely orange. A dog and a weathered log look more or less 
normal, and they were both lighter shades of brown to begin with.

Sam McCandless             samcc@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Alan,
>
>One of the interesting things to do is to go into the Photoshop custom color
>mixer, find a brown you like and look at the CYM and luminance numbers. It
>appears like you could get a nice chocolate brown with just Y and M with the
>appropriate amount of neutral black.
>
>I have been playing with the Sepia-VM set and you can get some rather nice
>browns with this, so you might want to check this out before you start
>mixing your own.
>
>As time permits I want to play with this by adjusting the amount and ratio
>of Y and M in the toner position ink. One thing Paul has cautioned me about
>is that the inks don't go together in a tidy, linear fashion and quite a bit
>of trial and error may be required. If several of us work on different
>approaches we should come up with a wonderful array of choices. Anything I
>discover, good or bad, I will post.
>
>Martin

[Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Paul Roark

Alan,

You wrote:

>I have looked at the custom tinting section on the MIS pages and have a
>question.

First, let me disclose that I've never really spent any time looking at the
tinting section of the MIS website.  I think it just has some small sizes or
MIS Archival color pig on it.  It is not related to the MIS VM system that I
have been involved with.

>  As I understand it the hue for making a custom-toned ink set is
>controlled only in the yellow position.

You can use any position you like if you are coming up with your own system.

In the VM system the toner is in the yellow spot.  However, in hextone
machines, the magenta and light magenta are the toner positions.  The reason
for the original position was that the MIS VM system started as the Piezo VP
system, and the lightest ink was just discarded in favor of the toner.  In
the hextone machines, however, the magenta is used so that the light/photo
position could be taken advantage of.

>If one were making a Van Dyke or sepia set of inks wouldn't the darkest
>value of brown then become the "black" base from which all the other tints
>are made?

Hmm, not sure what you're saying here.  It sounds like you want to come up
with a full, non-variable sepia inkset.  (I published a rough draft of an FS
sepia inkset the other day.  If you are interested in an FS-Sepia, contact
MIS and ask for it.)  I still used the VM black to get dark tones.  I don't
think that I could mix a brown ink that came close to that depth of tone.
It may be that there is a black ink that is much warmer than VM K, but I
just don't know.  As a practical matter, one doesn't see much color in the
dark tones, so the VM K in the VM-sepia prints looks fine.

>In other words I mix a batch of CMY to achieve sepia or brown, lower its
>value with black and use that for the tinting base.

See the formula I published.  What I did was get the cyan ink the sepia tone
I wanted (dark, strong sepia).  The cyan is the base of the FS inks in that
the magenta and yellow can be mixed by simply diluting the cyan.  I have the
dilution ratios noted in my post.  Then, what you get is an inkset that will
use all the FS/Piezo compatible workflows.

With the VM-sepia, I find that the full-on sepia is good mostly with old
photo reproductions.  For the Mission San Miguel shot I'm finishing now, I
prefer the "cold" curve.  With the VM-sepia, that gives a nice brown that is
less sepia than the ultimate sepia tone.

The plan for the FS-sepia I mixed was to come up with a very sepia tone that
would be appropriate for the old photos, but you can also mix it with
straight FS (same density) and come up with lesser sepia tones easily
without having to worry about the density problem.

To experiment with mixing ratios, just count drops into a bottle cap, mix,
and swab on a sample of the paper you use.  The ink-drop ratio will get you
quite close.

Starting from scratch to get the density of inks correct for a workflow is
not a trivial task.  My goal with the FS-N (actually a hair cool) and
FS-sepia was to provide cool and warm-end inksets that would be useable
as-is, but also as mixers with standard FS.  This approach avoids  the
starting-from-scratch problems that one might face just looking at the MIS
"tinting" section.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Mark Tucker

--- Alan Zinn <AZinn@...> wrote:
I saw some real Van Dykes on water color
> paper recently that I think
> I can match in print quality using just one color.


The print method that most caught my eye at the AIPAD
show in NY was "bromoil". I've heard the term over the
years, but have no idea what's involved in it.
(Although I'm sure it involves at least 41 steps, and
it probably involves caustic chemicals longed banned
by the EPA). But whatever it is, it is a BEAUTIFUL
process.

If you could come even remotely close to that look,
you'd be on to something. And not to mention the
Cyanotypes or VanDykes.

I have a closely-guarded book called PhotoHistorica,
from the British Something of Photography, and it's a
Masters Class in all these techniques. I like to
snuggle up with it, with a glass of Merlot, and a
candle, in my little footie pajamas, and go back to a
different age.

Here's the URL. You'll have to cut and paste the wrap:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1579651690/qid=1016459837/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/002-9891470-0767268

-Rev. Tucker



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Bob Obenland

> I wish someone knowledgeable about litho inks could instruct us on their
> alchemy.  My friends doing intaglio and other fine art printing go merrily
> about their way with any color in the rainbow without all the fuss we are
> saddled with. I'm tempted to get a can of brown ink and some MIS base and
> just go for it.
>
> AZ


I recenlty attended a workshop demo-ing the akua-color water based inks for
monotypes
and intaglio processes...

http://www.waterbasedinks.com/

Much of printmaking has been using oil based & caustic stuff...
the akua-color uses pure pigments in a water based medium
and has a number of advantages for monotype work.
They are archival.
They have two blacks in the series a carbon black (warm)
and a lamp black (cooler).

I have been interested in doing color monotype washes and then overprinting
witth piezo for detail - but thats in the future.

Don't ever say I told anyone to put these inks in an injet.  ;-))

But - - I bet these guys could make an inkjet version

Thanks
Bob Obenland

RE: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Larry Roohr

Here's a description of bromoil:

http://www.bromoil.com/process.htm

Actually many of the old processes and inkjet go hand in hand as the ability
to make quadtone negatives for contact printing works quite well for
negatives with optical density under 1.0 or so, and the density of a given
negative appears to be higher for UV using peizo inks.

I'm sitting here looking at my first gum over ziatype that I'm actually
pleased with, from a negative made with pictorico OHP film, peizo ink, and
epson driver, on an 1160.

Larry
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mtucker508@...]
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 6:59 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink


--- Alan Zinn <AZinn@...> wrote:
I saw some real Van Dykes on water color
> paper recently that I think
> I can match in print quality using just one color.


The print method that most caught my eye at the AIPAD
show in NY was "bromoil". I've heard the term over the
years, but have no idea what's involved in it.
(Although I'm sure it involves at least 41 steps, and
it probably involves caustic chemicals longed banned
by the EPA). But whatever it is, it is a BEAUTIFUL
process.

If you could come even remotely close to that look,
you'd be on to something. And not to mention the
Cyanotypes or VanDykes.

I have a closely-guarded book called PhotoHistorica,
from the British Something of Photography, and it's a
Masters Class in all these techniques. I like to
snuggle up with it, with a glass of Merlot, and a
candle, in my little footie pajamas, and go back to a
different age.

Here's the URL. You'll have to cut and paste the wrap:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1579651690/qid=1016459837/sr=8-1/ref=
sr_8_3_1/002-9891470-0767268

-Rev. Tucker



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Bob Obenland

> Bob,
> That is my next project too.  I saw some ink jet portraits in the
Cleveland
> Art Museum (in their collection!) that used hand-tinted rag paper. Very
good
> looking. I printed some ink jet over light washes on Arches paper and they
> show promise.  A friend just did some incredibly beautiful ink jet prints
on
> water color paper using color inks to print b/w. He ran the fresh prints
> under running water selectively washing out and blending.
>
> I think being overly focused on achieving replicas of traditional
> photographic techniques may hinder development of a new ink jet aesthetic.
>
> AZ

The strategy I'm thinking about...

Print reversed image (mirror image) full size.

Place image under plexiglass plate
and maybe on a light table....as a guide to painting on the plate.

Apply washes / tones to areas based on the print underneath.

Print monotype image from the plate.

Let dry.

Re-Adjust image in photoshop (move toward hi-key and open up I would guess)

Run monotype thru the inkjet...

The issue with many inks (createx water based for example)
is the paper must be wet to lift the image from the
monotype plate... then when it dries unless you have huge weight
on paper while drying  - its too wrinked to pass thru the printer.

With the akua-color inks they lift off onto dry paper
giving you a smooth surface to then injet print.

Thanks
Bob Obenland

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by byronbulb

> I wish someone knowledgeable about litho inks could instruct us on their
> alchemy.  My friends doing intaglio and other fine art printing go
merrily
> about their way with any color in the rainbow without all the fuss
we are
> saddled with. I'm tempted to get a can of brown ink and some MIS
base and
> just go for it.

Well, for starters, litho inks are oil-based and extremely thick. I
strongly doubt that you could convert them to inkjet ink (which I
believe is water or alcohol-based, no?) without some serious
printer-killing issues. The individual grains of pigment in
printmaking inks are probably too big for inkjet use also, so even if
the base weren't an issue, I suspect that the pigments would be too
large to pass comfortably through the print-head. 

-Charley

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by John Blair

Hi Alan,



Alan Zinn wrote:

> I printed some ink jet over light washes on Arches paper and they
> show promise.

Can you explain the procedure you used to create the washes on
watercolor paper?


> A friend just did some incredibly beautiful ink jet prints on
> water color paper using color inks to print b/w. He ran the fresh
> prints
> under running water selectively washing out and blending.

Your friend was selectively washing off the fresh color ink and blending
with his fingers or...  ?


Thanks for some great ideas,

John

--
John G. Blair Studio
Occidental, California
(about an hour north of the Bay Area)
http://www.jgblairphoto.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Alan Zinn

At 09:44 AM 3/17/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Alan Zinn <AZinn@...> wrote:
>> In other words I mix a batch of CMY to achieve sepia
>> or brown, lower its
>> value with black and use that for the tinting base. 
>
>Alan,
>
>It's Sunday morning, and you're talking the Devil's
>Talk! Caution, young man, attempting to go where no
>man has gone before. Even with Paul's guidance with
>the off-the-shelf VM's, look how many posts are about
>getting the curve tweaked just right. You are entering
>the Black Hole of Much Time Lost. Just be forewarned
>-- there ain't customer service for where you're about
>to go...
>
>Rev. Tucker
>
>.
>

Rev. Tucker,
The project I have in mind will be more forgiving, I think, than a conventional
b/w silver print-looking art print. I plan to use a cream Rives or similar
stock.  I saw some real Van Dykes on water color paper recently that I think
I can match in print quality using just one color. The full tinted set might
be even better. If that works I'll try to match Cyanotype. Trouble, trouble,
boil and bubble...

AZ

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Alan Zinn

At 10:20 AM 3/17/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Alan,
>
>One of the interesting things to do is to go into the Photoshop custom color
>mixer, find a brown you like and look at the CYM and luminance numbers. It
>appears like you could get a nice chocolate brown with just Y and M with the
>appropriate amount of neutral black.
>
>I have been playing with the Sepia-VM set and you can get some rather nice
>browns with this, so you might want to check this out before you start
>mixing your own.
>
>As time permits I want to play with this by adjusting the amount and ratio
>of Y and M in the toner position ink. One thing Paul has cautioned me about
>is that the inks don't go together in a tidy, linear fashion and quite a bit
>of trial and error may be required. If several of us work on different
>approaches we should come up with a wonderful array of choices. Anything I
>discover, good or bad, I will post.
>
>Martin
>
>
Martin,

Good thinking, it would save wasting ink. My experience with water color
will help some. I am using a 980 printer for b/w now and don't know if 1160
sepia-VM curves apply to it. 

I wish someone knowledgeable about litho inks could instruct us on their
alchemy.  My friends doing intaglio and other fine art printing go merrily
about their way with any color in the rainbow without all the fuss we are
saddled with. I'm tempted to get a can of brown ink and some MIS base and
just go for it.

AZ

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Alan Zinn" <AZinn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink


> At 10:20 AM 3/17/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >Alan,
> >
> >One of the interesting things to do is to go into the Photoshop custom
color
> >mixer, find a brown you like and look at the CYM and luminance numbers.
It
> >appears like you could get a nice chocolate brown with just Y and M with
the
> >appropriate amount of neutral black.
> >
> >I have been playing with the Sepia-VM set and you can get some rather
nice
> >browns with this, so you might want to check this out before you start
> >mixing your own.
> >
> >As time permits I want to play with this by adjusting the amount and
ratio
> >of Y and M in the toner position ink. One thing Paul has cautioned me
about
> >is that the inks don't go together in a tidy, linear fashion and quite a
bit
> >of trial and error may be required. If several of us work on different
> >approaches we should come up with a wonderful array of choices. Anything
I
> >discover, good or bad, I will post.
> >
> >Martin
> >
> >
>,
>
> Good thinking, it would save wasting ink. My experience with water color
> will help some. I am using a 980 printer for b/w now and don't know if
1160
> sepia-VM curves apply to it.

Allen,

The Sepia-VM uses the same curves as the regular VM. They need some tweaking
but are good enough to get started.
>
> I wish someone knowledgeable about litho inks could instruct us on their
> alchemy.  My friends doing intaglio and other fine art printing go merrily
> about their way with any color in the rainbow without all the fuss we are
> saddled with. I'm tempted to get a can of brown ink and some MIS base and
> just go for it.

Three issues with this. If the particle size of the brown ink is too big you
will clog your printer's head, perhaps permanently. The ink may not be
chemically compatible with the MIS clear base so mix and let stand a few
days before you put it in your printer. As Paul said earlier the difficult
will be to get not just the right color but the right densities. You can do
this but it will probably take you several trials.

I would really recommend you start with blending MIS K,C.Y and M inks to
find a brown you like (you should be able to match any color) and start from
there. That would at least remove the particle and chemical issues.

Martin Wesley

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-18 by Alan Zinn

At 09:29 AM 3/18/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> I wish someone knowledgeable about litho inks could instruct us on their
>> alchemy.  My friends doing intaglio and other fine art printing go merrily
>> about their way with any color in the rainbow without all the fuss we are
>> saddled with. I'm tempted to get a can of brown ink and some MIS base and
>> just go for it.
>>
>> AZ
>
>
>I recenlty attended a workshop demo-ing the akua-color water based inks for
>monotypes
>and intaglio processes...
>
>http://www.waterbasedinks.com/
>
>Much of printmaking has been using oil based & caustic stuff...
>the akua-color uses pure pigments in a water based medium
>and has a number of advantages for monotype work.
>They are archival.
>They have two blacks in the series a carbon black (warm)
>and a lamp black (cooler).
>
>I have been interested in doing color monotype washes and then overprinting
>witth piezo for detail - but thats in the future.

Bob,
That is my next project too.  I saw some ink jet portraits in the Cleveland
Art Museum (in their collection!) that used hand-tinted rag paper. Very good
looking. I printed some ink jet over light washes on Arches paper and they
show promise.  A friend just did some incredibly beautiful ink jet prints on
water color paper using color inks to print b/w. He ran the fresh prints
under running water selectively washing out and blending.  

I think being overly focused on achieving replicas of traditional
photographic techniques may hinder development of a new ink jet aesthetic. 

AZ
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Don't ever say I told anyone to put these inks in an injet.  ;-))
>
>But - - I bet these guys could make an inkjet version
>
>Thanks
>Bob Obenland
>
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-19 by Alan Zinn

At 10:20 AM 3/18/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> Bob,
>> That is my next project too.  I saw some ink jet portraits in the
>Cleveland
>> Art Museum (in their collection!) that used hand-tinted rag paper. Very
>good
>> looking. I printed some ink jet over light washes on Arches paper and they
>> show promise.  A friend just did some incredibly beautiful ink jet prints
>on
>> water color paper using color inks to print b/w. He ran the fresh prints
>> under running water selectively washing out and blending.
>>
>> I think being overly focused on achieving replicas of traditional
>> photographic techniques may hinder development of a new ink jet aesthetic.
>>
>> AZ
>
>The strategy I'm thinking about...
>
>Print reversed image (mirror image) full size.
>
>Place image under plexiglass plate
>and maybe on a light table....as a guide to painting on the plate.
>
>Apply washes / tones to areas based on the print underneath.
>
>Print monotype image from the plate.
>
>Let dry.
>
>Re-Adjust image in photoshop (move toward hi-key and open up I would guess)
>
>Run monotype thru the inkjet...
>
>The issue with many inks (createx water based for example)
>is the paper must be wet to lift the image from the
>monotype plate... then when it dries unless you have huge weight
>on paper while drying  - its too wrinked to pass thru the printer.
>
>With the akua-color inks they lift off onto dry paper
>giving you a smooth surface to then injet print.
>
>Thanks
>Bob Obenland
>
>
>

Bob,
Sounds like a winner if you can keep a nice ink density on the final print.
I have a vague recollection of a woman artist that was doing something like
that. She was doing a lot wetter technique on rice paper or something. Might
have been in one of the PhotoShop books. 

AZ

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-19 by Alan Zinn

At 08:42 AM 3/18/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Alan,
>
>
>
>Alan Zinn wrote:
>
>> I printed some ink jet over light washes on Arches paper and they
>> show promise.
>
>Can you explain the procedure you used to create the washes on
>watercolor paper?
>
>
>> A friend just did some incredibly beautiful ink jet prints on
>> water color paper using color inks to print b/w. He ran the fresh
>> prints
>> under running water selectively washing out and blending.
>
>Your friend was selectively washing off the fresh color ink and blending
>with his fingers or...  ?
>
>
>Thanks for some great ideas,
>
>John
>
>--
>John G. Blair Studio
>Occidental, California
>(about an hour north of the Bay Area)
>http://www.jgblairphoto.com
>
>
John,

I mixed up some regular transparent water colors like you might use for
underpanting - a thin tint of pigmented blue and ocher and laid a wash down
on some #60(?) Arches.  I dried it with a hair dryer and ran it through the
printer. 
As I recollect, the work I saw in Cleveland looked as if the whole sheet of
8 x 10 paper was given an over-all even pale green tint.  Dang, now you got
me wanting to make some prints.  

AZ

Re: [Digital BW] making brown ink

2002-03-19 by Bob Obenland

> Bob,
> Sounds like a winner if you can keep a nice ink density on the final
print.
> AZ


Right - -

Well since by definintion you get only one monoprint
wash each time to work with - -  that coupled with
my longstanding issues with piezo 3000...

paper feed problems,
splotched ink,
clogged heads,
settling inks,
different inks,
cat attacking the printer cord while printer is running,
(after an hour of printing)
etc.

I am hoping for one print
sometime before Year 2010.

:-))

Thanks
Bob Obenland

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.