Digital BW, The Print

Hello Friends,
     Let me start by saying that the information and knowledge 
derived by reading the exchange of ideas in this forum has been a 
tremendous resource.  I probably speak for a number of 'innocent 
eavesdroppers' who subscribe to this group when I thank you for all 
of your sharing of ideas.
     Now, to my point.  There is another printer out here.  
    I am a physician, a father of 2 young children. . . my hobby is 
black and white photography. . . and I live in a small city in 
Oklahoma.  I don't have access to a custom lab without using mail.  
While time in the wet darkroom seems interesting, it does require one 
to build a darkroom and does require alone time in a dark room.  The 
digital darkroom is more accessible and more affordable. 
    As a hobbyist, I marvel at the images on you guys web sites.  If 
and when I do create an image like these, I want a consistent, 
reproducible way of printing this image.  We want people to marvel at 
the image, its content and its tonal quality, but the quality of the 
print is only as good as the image itself.
    If I get to sit down once a week and play and produce in the 
digital darkroom, I am happy.  I don't want to sit down and have to 
fight head clogging, banding and contrast problems.  It takes some of 
the luster away, when you have 3 hours to fight it the whole time.
     I am currently using MIS FS inks with various curves, but have 
recently purchased the piezo driver in hopes that it will simplify my 
process.  For some of us, we would love to concentrate on the images, 
create them, scan them and print them . . .  Is this a pipe dream?
     You guys will be the ones to make or break digital black and 
white printing.  Your advances will hopefully allow it to be enjoyed 
and supported by us non-professionals.
     My fantasy to someday hang a show of incredible images is but a 
fantasy. . . most will likely wind up in a box somewhere.  But, I 
want them to be printed the best way I can and for you guys I look to 
for knowledge.
    I think, though, that to gain support we have to grow in 
numbers.  To grow in numbers we will need a straight-forward 
reproducible means that can be enjoyed by the enthusiast.
                               Scott Michener

Hello Friends,
   First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping 
members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and 
ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
    There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father, 
black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to 
produce images like I see on your websites.  
     I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I 
don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible 
and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
    To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in 
numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks 
being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see 
references as to what will advance this art?
    For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.  
We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the 
image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to 
produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that 
time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct 
banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with 
ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet 
then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer 
begin or end?
    So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some 
consideration should be given to quality with consistency and 
technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may 
someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than 
we ever imagine. 
                  Thank you,
                           Scott Michener

For a fairly bulletproof system, notice I said "fairly bulletproof" 
system, get yourself a digital camera, best you can afford, 
preferably Nikon or Canon high end, and do away with the film 
altogether. (I can almost hear the gasps) As for the finishing gear, 
get the Piezo software driver and throw away the Piezo ink. The piezo 
driver works with the MIS inks. The MIS inks, in my experience as a 
passionate hobbyist, work much better with far fewer (if any) clogs. 
Get a 1280 printer with a Niagra CIS system. Viola! Now your system 
is ready to print when you are (for the most part). You'll be 
producing outstanding prints in no time, far superior to any you've 
seen before. Remember though, a hammer does not make a master 
craftsman, and a nice system is only as good as the operator, both 
asthetically and technically. 

As for your statement, "To gain widespread support for this medium, 
we must gain in numbers. But while you argue over minute technical 
details of blacks being black and details in shadows being 
present. . . we never see references as to what will advance this 
art?" 

The art advances by the pursuit of perfection and mastery of the 
chosen medium. As a physician, would you ever settle for less? Best 
wishes in your new adventure. 

Barry Gilliand


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "smichener" 
<smichener@y...> wrote:
> Hello Friends,
>    First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of 
eavesdropping 
> members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge 
and 
> ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
>     There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father, 
> black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long 
to 
> produce images like I see on your websites.  
>      I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I 
> don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible 
> and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less 
difficult.
>     To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in 
> numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of 
blacks 
> being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see 
> references as to what will advance this art?
>     For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing 
form.  
> We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on 
the 
> image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to 
> produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that 
> time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct 
> banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality 
with 

> ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet 
> then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer 
> begin or end?
>     So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some 
> consideration should be given to quality with consistency and 
> technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may 
> someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than 
> we ever imagine. 
>                   Thank you,
>                            Scott Michener

Scott,

Not sure if you are asking a question or making a statement as you seem to
have a pretty good handle on what the scene is, as least as far as MIS and
Piezo are concerned. They both have their advocates and their advantages.
That there is no clear favorite just speaks to the fact that they are both
good, viable, alternatives. Which one you should use, if any, depends on
your primary preferences: control over color (MIS inks), or ease of use
(Piezo driver), and which workflow better supports your intended printer.

Probably the safest place for someone to start from today would be with the
Piezo driver with MIS FS inks, but that's just one man's semi-informed
opinion.

Whether any of this is easy or not depends on your tolerance for pain.

Jump in, you'll enjoy...

Todd

> Hello Friends,
> First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping
> members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and
> ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
> There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father,
> black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to
> produce images like I see on your websites.
> I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I
> don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible
> and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
> To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in
> numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks
> being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see
> references as to what will advance this art?
> For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.
> We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the
> image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to
> produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that
> time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct
> banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with
> ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet
> then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer
> begin or end?
> So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some
> consideration should be given to quality with consistency and
> technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may
> someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than
> we ever imagine. 
> Thank you,
> Scott Michener

It's all beginning and there is no end. As another newcomer, here's 
my prescription for doing it with ease: shoot color negative film, 
say Kodak's Supra, and have it developed and scanned onto a Kodak 
Photo CD w/o any further handling (or dust and scratches); open the 
scans in Photoshop for a minimal amount of massaging and conversion; 
print the scans with the Piezo driver and the MIS Full Spectrum (FS) 
Quadtone inks which Paul Roark designed to work with the Piezo 
driver. When that gets too restrictive, switch to the Epson driver 
and VM inks.

Keep "Real World Photoshop" by your side. When you get frustrated, 
interrupt the arguing here to ask about it. No one knows what will 
advance the art; just advance yours. We already have widespread 
support and sufficient numbers. What we need is more printing. Get 
busy and join in the burgeoning print exchanging and regional 
gatherings. See you there.

Sam McCandless             samcc@...

>Hello Friends,
>   First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping
>members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and
>ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
>    There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father,
>black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to
>produce images like I see on your websites.
>     I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I
>don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible
>and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
>    To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in
>numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks
>being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see
>references as to what will advance this art?
>    For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.
>We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the
>image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to
>produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that
>time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct
>banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with
>ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet
>then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer
>begin or end?
>    So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some
>consideration should be given to quality with consistency and
>technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may
>someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than
>we ever imagine.
>                  Thank you,
>                           Scott Michener

Scott-

You are not alone. But let me give you a little bit of the lay of the 
land as it relates to digital BW printing.

Epson, HP, Canon and others have spent many millions developing the 
technology, inks, and hardware for mass color printing. They have 
done an outstanding job of making it simple and fairly predictable to 
get an acceptable color print. 

They have spent almost nothing on BW technology. There are about 5-6 
companies that supply ink, a few who develop technology and no one 
who focuses on BW hardware (maybe there is no need?). What you have 
stumbled on here is a collaboration of experienced (Paul, Austin, 
Mike, Jerry, Steadman and many others of equal experience but less 
visible in the forum) and new (me and countless others) users who are 
willing to put up with some effort in a quest to produce high quality 
prints...most of us come from wet darkroom experience, so the idea of 
a struggle is not a new one.

I see that Paul has advised you to try the MIS FS inks with Piezo 
software. I use that as well as others and agree that that is the 
easiest way to get consistently good BW prints. You don't have 100% 
control but you have a lot with Photoshop anyhow, so for most prints 
you won't miss it. 

I think you may have hit on the dilemma of the BW photographer...it 
is really more art than science (more so as a percentage than color). 
The difference in a boring BW print and a striking one is more 
intertwined with technique than first meets the eye. This is not a 
bad thing...it doesn't require one to learn tons of geekspeak, but 
the quality of prints produced by the photographers I mentioned above 
is far beyond what one will manage with an office inkjet and "photo" 
paper...and this forum is dedicated to pushing that limit to approach 
some ideal not yet defined.

All of that said, I think you will find that all levels of questions 
and requests for help are respected and dealt with on this list. If 
you continue to "tune in" you will learn a lot...sometimes more than 
you wanted to know, but that's a good thing <g>. If you do 
eventually "drink the coolaid" and get addicted to BW printing, you 
will look back and thank Martin and Antonis for starting this forum!!!

Hang in there and don't be intimidated...even the most experienced 
digital BW printer only has a few years more experience than you 
do...and the landscape is changing every day...

Print and enjoy!

Cheers,

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "smichener" 
<smichener@y...> wrote:
> Hello Friends,
>    First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of 
eavesdropping 
> members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge 
and 
> ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
>     There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father, 
> black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long 
to 
> produce images like I see on your websites.  
>      I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I 
> don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible 
> and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less 
difficult.
>     To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in 
> numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of 
blacks 
> being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see 
> references as to what will advance this art?
>     For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing 
form.  
> We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on 
the 
> image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to 
> produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that 
> time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct 
> banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality 
with 

> ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet 
> then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer 
> begin or end?
>     So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some 
> consideration should be given to quality with consistency and 
> technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may 
> someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than 
> we ever imagine. 
>                   Thank you,
>                            Scott Michener