Digital BW, The Print

Scott, 

I only speak/write for myself but I do have a few responses to your views: 

1.  Welcome to the group and to digital BW printing

2.  Almost all of us wish it was easier and more consistent.  Some of us like difficult things and if it were too easy, some of the forum would move on to something else.   If one does not have the "stomach" or time to mess with inks....they should probably wait until one of the major players has a solution you can buy at OfficeDepot.  The state of the art today is really experimental.  If you look at Piezo...it is easy.  It has had problems (for some/many).  If you look at other solutions....they also are "in development."  Nothing is really that mature in tech anyway....if it is...it is outdated. 

3.  Easy is not always better.  Dropping film off at Walm-art is easy.  

4.  The digital BW is still a leading edge "experimental" type of thing.  No major manufacturer (Canon or Epson) currently sells a digital BW only printer.  So....this 3rd party stuff is definitely pushing the edge.  

5.  Working with leading edge stuff (hardware, software, inks) is not going to be consistent....as the leading edge keeps moving out ahead.  

6.  Professionals and hobbiests are both involved in this...some devote more time to making prints...others more time to making images.  The forum tends to attract more comments from people who spend more time making prints (the other guys are out there making images...wink).  

This comment/reply is not meant to be discouraging at all.  Just the "current state" as I see it.  

By the way, I found Piezo extremely easy to use...others find MIS/Roark easy...so everyone can have a try at it...some finding their way..others losing it.  Regardless, if you don't want to experiment...this is probably not a good thing to buy into.  Remember, dropping the film off at Walm-art is easy.

Good Luck

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: smichener 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:11 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] A Newcomers View


  Hello Friends,
     First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping 
  members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and 
  ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
      There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father, 
  black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to 
  produce images like I see on your websites.  
       I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I 
  don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible 
  and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
      To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in 
  numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks 
  being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see 
  references as to what will advance this art?
      For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.  
  We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the 
  image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to 
  produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that 
  time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct 
  banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with 
  ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet 
  then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer 
  begin or end?
      So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some 
  consideration should be given to quality with consistency and 
  technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may 
  someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than 
  we ever imagine. 
                    Thank you,
                             Scott Michener


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scott, The MIS inks seem to have no clogging problems. I've never had one in many years of use. The 1280 is certainly capable of photo
quality prints. NO problem there!
the CIS system from http://www.mediastreet.com is the best one out there, and is used by hundreds of listmembers who swear by it. The
Generations 4 inks are great with most papers. Most of us don't have banding problems with the 1280. A couple cleaning cycles almost always
cures it. I've never seen it with the 1280.

So if you get this setup (For black and white prints, get the MIS VM or FS inkset, and use Paul Roark's curves, and you'll get piezo quality
without its' hassles.

Jerry




smichener wrote:

> Hello Friends,
>    First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping
> members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and
> ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
>     There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father,
> black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to
> produce images like I see on your websites.
>      I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I
> don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible
> and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
>     To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in
> numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks
> being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see
> references as to what will advance this art?
>     For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.
> We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the
> image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to
> produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that
> time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct
> banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with
> ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet
> then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer
> begin or end?
>     So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some
> consideration should be given to quality with consistency and
> technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may
> someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than
> we ever imagine.
>                   Thank you,
>                            Scott Michener
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Scott,

My understanding is that Epson has finally recognized the market you refer
too. In the fall of this year we should see 7-color Epson printers which use
pigment ink and add a mid-gray ink to the current black and 5 colors. In
addition they are reported to have some software improvements to get more
consistent and neutral B&W.

As the medium stands now we are definitely operating on the bleeding edge of
a small technological niche when it comes to quality B&W from desktop
printers.

Also please understand that intent of the list is to discuss all methods of
getting a quality B&W print from a digital file and this includes other
processes beyond ink jet printers. The fact that ink jet is the topic of
most of the threads here should not obscure the fact that other options are
available.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "smichener" <smichener@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 8:11 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] A Newcomers View


> Hello Friends,
>    First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping
> members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and
> ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
>     There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father,
> black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to
> produce images like I see on your websites.
>      I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I
> don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible
> and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
>     To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in
> numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks
> being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see
> references as to what will advance this art?
>     For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.
> We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the
> image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to
> produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that
> time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct
> banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with
> ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet
> then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer
> begin or end?
>     So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some
> consideration should be given to quality with consistency and
> technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may
> someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than
> we ever imagine.
>                   Thank you,
>                            Scott Michener
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Scott,

You wrote, in part:

>... I want a consistent,
>reproducible way of printing this image.
>... If I get to sit down once a week and play and produce in the
>digital darkroom, I am happy.  I don't want to sit down and have to
>fight head clogging, banding and contrast problems.
>...  I am currently using MIS FS inks ... have
>recently purchased the piezo driver...
>would love to concentrate on the images,
>create them, scan them and print them . . .  Is this a pipe dream?

No, many of us are doing the same thing.  MIS FS inks and Piezo driver
should give you what you are after.

Most users seem to be able to leave the printer off for a week with no bad
effects.  High elevation and low humidity apparently can cause problems if
the printer is not used regularly.  However, for most, working once a week
would not be a problem.

Good luck.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Morning Scott,

I'm afraid that you have voiced exactly what I was telling a friend the
other day.
I am "in the business" of selling photography and have been very impressed
with what some people on this list are producing, As just one example,
Paul's images and knowledge is incredible,
but I have yet to try it because I don't want to take the time to deal with
all of the problems.

Regards,

John in Okc

----- Original Message -----
From: "smichener" <smichener@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:11 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] A Newcomers View


| Hello Friends,
|    First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping
| members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and
| ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
|     There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father,
| black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to
| produce images like I see on your websites.
|      I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I
| don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible
| and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
|     To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in
| numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks
| being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see
| references as to what will advance this art?
|     For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.
| We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the
| image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to
| produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that
| time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct
| banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with
| ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet
| then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer
| begin or end?
|     So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some
| consideration should be given to quality with consistency and
| technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may
| someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than
| we ever imagine.
|                   Thank you,
|                            Scott Michener
|
|
|
| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
|
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
|
| Please follow these basic guidelines:
| - Include your full name with your message.
| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
|
|
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

I'm an 'occasional' BW printer. The bulk of my work is color
printed on a 1270. I have an 1160 using MIS-Full Spectrum
inks in cartridges that I use for BW.

I've gone as long as a month without using
the printer and haven't had any terrible clog problems.
I find if I do a nozzle check at least every-other week that
things are pretty much trouble free.

I do wonder if I were to get a CIS if this would continue to
be the case.


-JimD


At 11:14 PM 3/25/02 -0800, Paul Roark wrote:

>Most users seem to be able to leave the printer off for a week with no bad
>effects.  High elevation and low humidity apparently can cause problems if
>the printer is not used regularly.  However, for most, working once a week
>would not be a problem.

Very likely you will have no problems.

Jerry



JimD wrote:

> I'm an 'occasional' BW printer. The bulk of my work is color
> printed on a 1270. I have an 1160 using MIS-Full Spectrum
> inks in cartridges that I use for BW.
>
> I've gone as long as a month without using
> the printer and haven't had any terrible clog problems.
> I find if I do a nozzle check at least every-other week that
> things are pretty much trouble free.
>
> I do wonder if I were to get a CIS if this would continue to
> be the case.
>
> -JimD
>
> At 11:14 PM 3/25/02 -0800, Paul Roark wrote:
> >Most users seem to be able to leave the printer off for a week with no bad
> >effects.  High elevation and low humidity apparently can cause problems if
> >the printer is not used regularly.  However, for most, working once a week
> >would not be a problem.
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

At 04:11 AM 3/25/2002 -0000, you wrote:
>Hello Friends,
>   First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping 
>members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and 
>ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
>    There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father, 
>black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to 
>produce images like I see on your websites.  
>     I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I 
>don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible 
>and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
>    To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in 
>numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks 
>being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see 
>references as to what will advance this art?
>    For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.  
>We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the 
>image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to 
>produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that 
>time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct 
>banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with 
>ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet 
>then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer 
>begin or end?
>    So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some 
>consideration should be given to quality with consistency and 
>technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may 
>someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than 
>we ever imagine. 
>                  Thank you,
>                           Scott Michener

Scott,

Digital print-making is similar to darkroom photography in that one can
expect to continuously improve their craft and art skills over a long time
with just a few basic tools. As it is with a wet darkroom, not being able to
make a good looking print is not usually the fault of the tools. Not knowing
the film format you expect to use I can only pass on my very basic methods
and equipment that I have had few problems and enormous satisfaction with. I
have a number of friends who use similar equipment who are also happy campers. 

http://lookaroundcam.com/m_digital.html


AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

At 07:07 AM 3/26/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Morning Scott,
>
>I'm afraid that you have voiced exactly what I was telling a friend the
>other day.
>I am "in the business" of selling photography and have been very impressed
>with what some people on this list are producing, As just one example,
>Paul's images and knowledge is incredible,
>but I have yet to try it because I don't want to take the time to deal with
>all of the problems.
>
>Regards,
>
>John in Okc
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "smichener" <smichener@...>
>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:11 PM
>Subject: [Digital BW] A Newcomers View
>
>
>| Hello Friends,
>|    First and foremost, I probably speak for a number of eavesdropping
>| members of this group when I thank you for sharing your knowledge and
>| ideas with us.  It is a tremendous resource.
>|     There is another printer out here.  As a physician and father,
>| black and white photography is my hobby.  As an enthusiast, I long to
>| produce images like I see on your websites.
>|      I don't have access to a custom lab without the mail. . . I
>| don't have a wet darkroom.  The digital darkroom is more accessible
>| and more affordable.  The learning curve, I think, no less difficult.
>|     To gain widespread support for this medium, we must gain in
>| numbers.  But while you argue over minute technical details of blacks
>| being black and details in shadows being present. . . we never see
>| references as to what will advance this art?
>|     For a hobbyist, we want a reliable, reproducible printing form.
>| We want it to be of superior quality, but want to concentrate on the
>| image as our primary goal.  If I get 4 hours to sit down and try to
>| produce some work, it is frustrating and will be terminal if that
>| time is spent clearing clogs, aligning heads, trying to correct
>| banding, etc. . .   Is scanning, formatting and printing quality with
>| ease a pipedream?  For this, it seems piezo would get the edge, yet
>| then you get the clogs, the green etc.  So, where should a newcomer
>| begin or end?
>|     So, while we look to your work for our advancements, some
>| consideration should be given to quality with consistency and
>| technical ease.  It will keep the door open to the hobbyist and may
>| someday make the digital black and white darkroom more popular than
>| we ever imagine.
>|                   Thank you,
>|                            Scott Michener
>|

Scott,

The deal is much of the traffic on the list about quirks and problems fall
into just a few areas.  There was some talk of doing a FAQ to give new users
a leg up. I don't know if there is one in the archive. 

Most of the time "clogs" are no more than air bubbles. Dorking around (as we
all do) with different inking systems and inks is bound to cause
aggravation. If I were starting out I'd stick with one ink system, one ink,
one paper, and get real good with them. You will not likely have problems
providing you have looked at the invaluable information in the list index
and on the piezo and MIS pages.

I had a piezo with Cone inks and CIS set-up that never screwed up because I
left it alone. I ruined my 1160 by stupidity - but that's another story. I
now have the MIS inks with piezo in carts which I re-fill on a 980 and it
never screws up. Only I screw up. 

Find someone in your area that is doing quads and take them out for coffee.

AZ

Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround