Digital BW, The Print

Sorry guys, I must be getting old. My wife and daughter told me that I am wrong the LPM print is sharper. Well, the blacks are deeper and more dense, hmmm, maybe they are right.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael J. Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 6:42 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Legion Photo Matte


  One other thing I just noticed when comparing the same print on 
  Legion Photo Matte and Bright Cube Eclipse Velvet. 

  The Eclipse Velvet image is sharper!

  Yup, with a 4x loupe the edge effects on the Velvet are visibly 
  sharper and more pronounced. The Legion Photo Matte edges are a bit 
  soft. Perhaps a bit of ink bleed?

  Mike


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Agreed, only wish it were thicker!

Steadman says 2 papers can be different weights and have the same thickness,
or have 2 different thickness and weigh the same. Something is just not
right here.

Jerry



"Michael J. Kravit" wrote:

> I received my supply of Legion Photo Matte today from Media Street.
> Ran a print and love the smoothness. The color makes EAM look yellow.
> The white is very nice, not blue, not lavender.
>
> I am a bit disappointed with the weight. As Jerry, 230gsm is not an
> accurate description of this papers weight when compared to other
> papers. This paper is almost identical to EAM in weight.
>
> As I am moving on Friday, my digital gram scale is packed in a box.
> Once in the new house I will weigh both the EAM and LPM to see what
> the actual difference is.
>
> So far though, a very nice paper indeed.
>
> Mike
>
>
> The Group Homepage can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

This Eclipse paper sounds very interesting. I'm getting a few sheets soon.
What is the price for 25 sheets of letter or 13x19?

Jerry

"Michael J. Kravit" wrote:

> One other thing I just noticed when comparing the same print on
> Legion Photo Matte and Bright Cube Eclipse Velvet.
>
> The Eclipse Velvet image is sharper!
>
> Yup, with a 4x loupe the edge effects on the Velvet are visibly
> sharper and more pronounced. The Legion Photo Matte edges are a bit
> soft. Perhaps a bit of ink bleed?
>
> Mike
>
>
> The Group Homepage can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Photo Matte is an excellent paper, I think it is noticeably heavier than 
Epson Archival Matte. (230 gsms vs 190 gsms).

Most papers, even photo papers have optical brightners. Keep the prints
out of the sun.

Jerry


charles_bandes wrote:

> 
> Just ran my first test print on th new legion photo matte paper, and
> I'm very impressed with the results. I used a file that I've been
> having problems with on EAM - it shows some posterization on that
> paper, but has much better tonal range on the legion material.
> 
> The paper is slightly brighter and slightly smoother than the epson
> (the brightness leads me to worry that it probably has brighteners)
> according to its specs, the paper is supposedly somewhat heavier than
> the Epson material, but they feel similar, and the legion exhibits a
> bit more curling when the print is still drying. (But not enough to be
> worrysome.)
> 
> This paper costs a little more than EAM ($16 for 50 sheets for Epson,
> $20 for Legion) but it's in the same ballpark, and so far I like it
> better.
> 
> Oh - the back of the sheet is white, no logos or anything, yay! :)
> 
> -Charley
> 
> --

Sounds good,

I wanna try it, but can't find it for anything less the $27.  Where did 
you find the bargin?

Thanks,
Daren



charles_bandes wrote:

>
>
> This paper costs a little more than EAM ($16 for 50 sheets for Epson,
> $20 for Legion) but it's in the same ballpark, and so far I like it
> better.
>
> Oh - the back of the sheet is white, no logos or anything, yay! :)
>
> -Charley
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
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>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I bought it at my local Calumet for just over $20 (It's on sale all of
April from them (apparently all digital papers are, woo!) I think
their regular price is more like $23)

inkjetgoodies.com has it for around $20 also, but shipping is around
$6 :/ so unless you're ordering a lot of stuff from them, it comes out
to around $26 all told, which is too much. My plan is to think ahead
and only send in big orders to them so I can do their free shipping deal.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Daren M." <waxgod@s...> wrote:

> Sounds good,
> 
> I wanna try it, but can't find it for anything less the $27.  Where did 
> you find the bargin?
> 
> Thanks,
> Daren

Why would you want to use a paper with the problems of EAM that is much more
expensive?  Is it at least 100% rag?  Acid free?  It obviously has
brighteners in it.  It apparently is also too thin if it is like EAM....
Yes, its cheaper than real archival papers...but...

Hmmmm?

Robert

On 4/11/02 2:26 PM, "charles_bandes" <byronbulb@...> wrote:

> I bought it at my local Calumet for just over $20 (It's on sale all of
> April from them (apparently all digital papers are, woo!) I think
> their regular price is more like $23)
> 
> inkjetgoodies.com has it for around $20 also, but shipping is around
> $6 :/ so unless you're ordering a lot of stuff from them, it comes out
> to around $26 all told, which is too much. My plan is to think ahead
> and only send in big orders to them so I can do their free shipping deal.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Daren M." <waxgod@s...> wrote:
>> Sounds good,
>> 
>> I wanna try it, but can't find it for anything less the $27.  Where did
>> you find the bargin?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Daren
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

Are you aware that most Fiber Based photographic papers have brightners are
yellow over time?

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Legion Photo Matte


> Why would you want to use a paper with the problems of EAM that is much
more

> expensive?  Is it at least 100% rag?  Acid free?  It obviously has
> brighteners in it.  It apparently is also too thin if it is like EAM....
> Yes, its cheaper than real archival papers...but...
>
> Hmmmm?
>
> Robert

Not a bad question -

So far this looks to be only about 15% more expensive than EAM, and
I'm having lots fewer problems with it. (So 15% more expensive, but
more than 15% better)

I wouldn't use either this paper or EAM for portfolio prints or prints
for sale, but for proofing, for prints I bring to critique groups, for
improving my technique, it's a good bet I think.

For "real" prints I prefer Somerset Photo Enhanced right now, but I'm
planning to try Museo as well, I understand that it has a smoother
surface, which would come in handy from time to time.

Rag papers are simply prohibitively expensive for day-to-day printing,
at least on my budget. I'm using them only for my most important
prints right now. As my business grows and I can afford more expensive
materials, I'll probably shift over more printing to better papers.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Why would you want to use a paper with the problems of EAM that is
much more

> expensive?  Is it at least 100% rag?  Acid free?  It obviously has
> brighteners in it.  It apparently is also too thin if it is like EAM....
> Yes, its cheaper than real archival papers...but...
> 
> Hmmmm?
> 
> Robert

Yes, I believe someone pointed that out recently. I don't use conventional
photo paper...I only print digital...seems to have been a weakness in the
old technology.  I was a painter, sculptor and print maker before I started
taking pictures.  As a print maker I would have never used a paper with OB's
in it...of course some people do...but that is there choice.

Robert

On 4/11/02 3:04 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> Are you aware that most Fiber Based photographic papers have brightners are
> yellow over time?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 5:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Legion Photo Matte
> 
> 
>> Why would you want to use a paper with the problems of EAM that is much
> more
>> expensive?  Is it at least 100% rag?  Acid free?  It obviously has
>> brighteners in it.  It apparently is also too thin if it is like EAM....
>> Yes, its cheaper than real archival papers...but...
>> 
>> Hmmmm?
>> 
>> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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> 
> 
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> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

I completely understand. When I was an art major in college and HS, we would
never use anything but 100% RAG papers.
I also agree, I have used Photo Rag but I am no longer buying it. William
Turner will loose surface if you handle it too much. What is too much, that
depends. I over matte my prints and when thay are stacked they do not touch
each other. So it has not been a problem for me.

Let me know when youy receive the papers I sent you.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Legion Photo Matte


> Yes, I believe someone pointed that out recently. I don't use conventional
> photo paper...I only print digital...seems to have been a weakness in the
> old technology.  I was a painter, sculptor and print maker before I
started
> taking pictures.  As a print maker I would have never used a paper with
OB's
> in it...of course some people do...but that is there choice.
>
> Robert
>
> On 4/11/02 3:04 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Robert,
> >
> > Are you aware that most Fiber Based photographic papers have brightners
are
> > yellow over time?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 5:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Legion Photo Matte
> >
> >
> >> Why would you want to use a paper with the problems of EAM that is much
> > more
> >> expensive?  Is it at least 100% rag?  Acid free?  It obviously has
> >> brighteners in it.  It apparently is also too thin if it is like
EAM....
> >> Yes, its cheaper than real archival papers...but...
> >>
> >> Hmmmm?
> >>
> >> Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
>
> 310-397-2704
>
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

When I have tried to print on this paper, I find that my shadow tend
to load up. I am printing on an 1160 using the MIS ink. Have you found 
that this is true and if it is what do you do to compensate for it.

Steve


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
<jerryolson@r...> 
wrote:
> Photo Matte is an excellent paper, I think it is noticeably heavier
than 
> Epson Archival Matte. (230 gsms vs 190 gsms).
> 
> Most papers, even photo papers have optical brightners. Keep the
prints

> out of the sun.
> 
> Jerry
>

atlex.com has 50 sheets of epson archival matte for 11.95.

Jerry



"Daren M." wrote:

> 
> Sounds good,
> 
> I wanna try it, but can't find it for anything less the $27.  Where did
> you find the bargin?
> 
> Thanks,
> Daren
> 
> charles_bandes wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > This paper costs a little more than EAM ($16 for 50 sheets for Epson,
> > $20 for Legion) but it's in the same ballpark, and so far I like it
> > better.
> >
> > Oh - the back of the sheet is white, no logos or anything, yay! :)
> >
> > -Charley
> >
> >
> > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > Click Here!
> > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.1994012.3473453.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705019182:HM/A=1036972/R=0/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=3466>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep them short.
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> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> > various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Mike noted:

>... most Fiber Based photographic papers have brighteners are
>yellow over time

In my fade testing I've seen no correlation between brighteners and fading.

Also, while many seem to think brighteners are a negative to longevity, I've
seen no hard evidence that they reduce the paper's life.

I'm not sure there is any negative to brighteners aside from the fact that
they will eventually "burn out" and cause the paper to yellow a bit.  In my
tests the typical yellowing is about 3 units of 256, then the papers
stabilize and do not further yellow.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Yes, that was my point. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I recently saw 3
Ansel Adams prints at Tom McCartney's house. The prints had lovely backs w/
a full range of tones on a cream colored paper. I am sure that the paper did
not start out that way. It was just a very delicate shade of cream. Looks
like the paper had aged.

So with that said, it is really my opinion that we use the best quality inks
and papers that we can for exhibition quality prints and forget all this
archival stuff. It gives me a headache. ;-)

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Legion Photo Matte


> Mike noted:
>
> >... most Fiber Based photographic papers have brighteners are
> >yellow over time
>
> In my fade testing I've seen no correlation between brighteners and
fading.
>
> Also, while many seem to think brighteners are a negative to longevity,
I've
> seen no hard evidence that they reduce the paper's life.
>
> I'm not sure there is any negative to brighteners aside from the fact that
> they will eventually "burn out" and cause the paper to yellow a bit.  In
my
> tests the typical yellowing is about 3 units of 256, then the papers
> stabilize and do not further yellow.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...> writes:

> Yes, I believe someone pointed that out recently. I don't use conventional
> photo paper...I only print digital...seems to have been a weakness in the
> old technology.  I was a painter, sculptor and print maker before I started
> taking pictures.  As a print maker I would have never used a paper with OB's
> in it...of course some people do...but that is there choice.

This is the basic choice between archival permanence and how good the
work looks *right now*.  I personally have a fetish for archival
permanence, but it seems a very valid artistic attitude to say that
how it looks right now is the dominant consideration.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@...  /  Ghugle: the Fannish Ghod of Queries
 John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
        Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
                 Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/

I get beautiful prints on Photo matte, and have no problems at all with
it. Can't say anything negative about it.  It is pH neutral, 100% Alpha
Cellulose, and Archival. Says so right in their literature. It's nearly
twice the cost of Epson Archival Matte.  

atlex.com has Archival matte for 11.95 per 50. Where is the least
expensive place to get Photo Matte?

Jerry

> So far this looks to be only about 15% more expensive than EAM, and
> I'm having lots fewer problems with it. (So 15% more expensive, but
> more than 15% better)
> 
> I wouldn't use either this paper or EAM for portfolio prints or prints
> for sale, but for proofing, for prints I bring to critique groups, for
> improving my technique, it's a good bet I think.
> 
> For "real" prints I prefer Somerset Photo Enhanced right now, but I'm
> planning to try Museo as well, I understand that it has a smoother
> surface, which would come in handy from time to time.
> 
> Rag papers are simply prohibitively expensive for day-to-day printing,
> at least on my budget. I'm using them only for my most important
> prints right now. As my business grows and I can afford more expensive
> materials, I'll probably shift over more printing to better papers.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> > Why would you want to use a paper with the problems of EAM that is
> much more
> > expensive?  Is it at least 100% rag?  Acid free?  It obviously has
> > brighteners in it.  It apparently is also too thin if it is like EAM....
> > Yes, its cheaper than real archival papers...but...
> >
> > Hmmmm?
> >
> > Robert
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I believe all photographic papers have optical brightners in them. This
is not really a problem if you don't subject prints to sunlight.

Jerry

Robert Morrison wrote:

> 
> Yes, I believe someone pointed that out recently. I don't use conventional
> photo paper...I only print digital...seems to have been a weakness in the
> old technology.  I was a painter, sculptor and print maker before I started
> taking pictures.  As a print maker I would have never used a paper with OB's
> in it...of course some people do...but that is there choice.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 4/11/02 3:04 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
> wrote:
> 
> > Robert,
> >
> > Are you aware that most Fiber Based photographic papers have brightners are
> > yellow over time?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 5:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Legion Photo Matte
> >
> >
> >> Why would you want to use a paper with the problems of EAM that is much
> > more
> >> expensive?  Is it at least 100% rag?  Acid free?  It obviously has
> >> brighteners in it.  It apparently is also too thin if it is like EAM....
> >> Yes, its cheaper than real archival papers...but...
> >>
> >> Hmmmm?
> >>
> >> Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
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> >
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> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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I've not noticed that. You might want to try different media settings.
Each one produces a different look. (Which of Paul's curves are you
using, and is it the latest one?)

Jerry



steven0356 wrote:

> 
> When I have tried to print on this paper, I find that my shadow tend
> to load up. I am printing on an 1160 using the MIS ink. Have you found
> that this is true and if it is what do you do to compensate for it.
> 
> Steve
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...>
> wrote:
> > Photo Matte is an excellent paper, I think it is noticeably heavier
> than
> > Epson Archival Matte. (230 gsms vs 190 gsms).
> >
> > Most papers, even photo papers have optical brightners. Keep the
> prints
> > out of the sun.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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I've been doing quadtone B&W for a year or so now, not often enough
(had to unclog my heads last week) using an Epson 1160 printer with
the old MIS quadtone ink set.  I've mostly been using the "Nevins"
method (not partitioned); this has the advantage that I've been able
to make my own transfer curves for various papers, and refine them,
and all in all I'm fairly happy.  Sure looks better than using color
inks!

But I don't think my prints have the smoothness that I'd really like
to be able to see.  And I'm bothered (perhaps illogically) that the
lighter inks don't seem to be going down in the bottles fast enough.
I think I ought to be using them more.  And I'm not really happy with
d-max, but I think that's the inevitable consequence of having to
print on *%#$*%* matte paper, the really *big* sacrifice I've made in
going to digital printing.  (I hope/believe that when I finish my
current sets of ink bottles, I'll be able to buy new inks and new
papers that actually let me do glossy; I guess we'll see, but I gotta
print faster to use these old inks up!).

So I've looked at the Brandon, Randall, and Woolfe curves (and
workflows) at MIS to consider a partitioned workflow.  I'm amused at
how different the color images are (not that this means so much;
especially since some of the curves are for inksets I don't have, and
I don't know that the black density maps to CMYK the same way for all
the inksets).

The big thing that bothers me about all of these is that I have no way
to fix the curves for myself or generate curves for a new paper, or
select the optimal media and paper settings, or anything.  I'd have to
use them for packaged systems.  (And none of them have curves for
Glacier Matte or Aspen).

Since I don't have a densitometer this may be an essentially insoluble
problem, but I've found for making transfer curves that I can get
acceptable results using a decent-quality standard step wedge and
scanning it next to my test print step wedge, and then comparing
scanned density values.  I'm sure this doesn't give me information as
precise as a calibrated densitometer, or as accurate, but it's not
bad.  Even eyeballing samples next to each other isn't bad (I'll cut a
sample print carefully in half, or punch holes in it, so that I can
put the sample print against the standard step wedge and do
side-by-side comparisons by eye; the eye is very good at "which is
darker" for two things that are adjacent).

I also don't have *time* right now (before I need to have some
exhibition prints done) to reinvent this whole wheel; so what work has
already been done in this area?  Anybody have a method for end-users
to produce their own quadtone separation curves?  Or an explanation of
why I don't need to?

If somebody can convince me that I don't need to go the partitioned
workflow route at all, I'll be *really* grateful; I already understand
Nevins decently.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@...  /  Ghugle: the Fannish Ghod of Queries
 John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
        Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
                 Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/

Yep...that sounds like half the price of Legion. For a proofing paper...I
don't see that it makes much difference.  And when they get the back marking
off the EAM!



Robert

On 4/11/02 4:23 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> atlex.com has 50 sheets of epson archival matte for 11.95.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> "Daren M." wrote:
>> 
>> Sounds good,
>> 
>> I wanna try it, but can't find it for anything less the $27.  Where did
>> you find the bargin?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Daren
>> 
>> charles_bandes wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This paper costs a little more than EAM ($16 for 50 sheets for Epson,
>>> $20 for Legion) but it's in the same ballpark, and so far I like it
>>> better.
>>> 
>>> Oh - the back of the sheet is white, no logos or anything, yay! :)
>>> 
>>> -Charley
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
>>> ADVERTISEMENT
>>> Click Here!
>>> <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.1994012.3473453.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050191
>>> 82:HM/A=1036972/R=0/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=3466>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
>>> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> various resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
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>> them short.
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>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Greetings,

I would like to place one more small positive vote for the Legion 
Photo Matt. Just recently hung a show of prints on this paper in a 
local gallery, and am very pleased with them. 18x28 image size 
from 35mm on 24x36 sheets. Nice tonal range, smooth surface,  
good black under glass.

It would be nice if it were 100% Rag, slightly heavier and the 
OB's were gone, but it seems at the present stage of the 
technology we cannnot have our cake and eat it too. As far as 
archival standards, they will more than likely outlast me. After that 
point I feel that my interest in the subject may wane.

One reason I used it was the availability of the paper in 24x36 
sheets. I am sorry that some of the other manufacturers haven't 
made their products available in this size, especially Photo Rag.  
Rolls are fine, but it was nice to avoid print curl. Perhaps all 
things will come to us who wait.

For info, I got the paper from Cone's shop, on sale for $120.00 
for 25 sheets. Not too bad.

Butch Hulett

I am using the neutral and the cool curves. I down loaded the curves 
(from the MIS site) a couple months ago, so I assume they are the 
latest ones.

The Legion Photo Matte shadows seem to load up compared to the EAM, 
when printing from the same file, using the same settings. If no one 
else is having this problem, I will go back and try it again.

Thanks.

Steve


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> 
wrote:
> I've not noticed that. You might want to try different media settings.
> Each one produces a different look. (Which of Paul's curves are you
> using, and is it the latest one?)
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> steven0356 wrote:
> > 
> > When I have tried to print on this paper, I find that my shadow tend
> > to load up. I am printing on an 1160 using the MIS ink. Have you found
> > that this is true and if it is what do you do to compensate for it.
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> > <jerryolson@r...>
> > wrote:
> > > Photo Matte is an excellent paper, I think it is noticeably heavier
> > than
> > > Epson Archival Matte. (230 gsms vs 190 gsms).
> > >
> > > Most papers, even photo papers have optical brightners. Keep the
> > prints
> > > out of the sun.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/
terms/

I print Legion Photo Matte with an 1160 using the original MIS quad inkset &
the Brandin EAM curves. Strangely, 100% black "solarizes" & views much
lighter, almost a bronzing effect. Those prints look horrible. But if I add
a PS Levels adjustment & back off one unit from black, I get great-looking
prints, with better snap than EAM & nice, neutral tones (for that inkset).
These are my visual impressions - I have no instruments to back up those
statements.

Also, last time I purchased EAM it was 11.05 at buy.com.
-BK

----- Original Message -----

From: "steven0356" <stevenr@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Legion Photo Matte


> I am using the neutral and the cool curves. I down loaded the curves
> (from the MIS site) a couple months ago, so I assume they are the
> latest ones.
>
> The Legion Photo Matte shadows seem to load up compared to the EAM,
> when printing from the same file, using the same settings. If no one
> else is having this problem, I will go back and try it again.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., David Dyer-Bennet <dd-
b@d...> wrote:

<snip>
So I've looked at the Brandon, Randall, and Woolfe curves (and
workflows) at MIS to consider a partitioned workflow.  
 
The big thing that bothers me about all of these is that I have no 
way to fix the curves for myself or generate curves for a new paper, 
or select the optimal media and paper settings, or anything.  I'd 
have to use them for packaged systems.  (And none of them have curves 
for Glacier Matte or Aspen).
<snip>

Since I don't have a densitometer this may be an essentially insoluble
problem. 
<snip>

Anybody have a method for end-users to produce their own quadtone 
separation curves? <snip> 

David:

I publish the RGB I/O values so folks CAN tweak the curves for them 
selves (it is a lot easier using Picture Windows, but that's another 
story).  I generated my 1160 partitioned curves using only a scanner 
as my densiomenter.  It can be done.  It's not rocket science.  It 
only take time, paper and ink.  

My basic procedure for generating partitioned curves is to scan a 21-
stepwedge in color with VueScan setting the WP and BP to clip the 0 
and 255 patches and autolevels color balance.  I then open the file 
using Picture Windows curves/histogram feature in the HSV colorspace 
and check the location of the other 19 "peaks" across the 0-255 range 
and iteratively adjust the partition curves to evenly space the 
peaks.  This is just manually building an inkset/printer/paper 
profile. 

Jeff Randall

Steve, My latest curves for the 1160 are:

vmm11-c5.acv, 					cool
vmm11-nc.acv,						neutral cool
vmm11-mw4.acv,   				medium warm
vmm11-w5.acv,					warm

and for the 1280, the latest curves I have are:

vmm8-cc.acv			Cold-Cool
vm8-c.acv				Cool
vmm8-nc.acv			Neutral
vmm8-mw.acv			Medium Warm
vmm8-w.acv			Warm



steven0356 wrote:

> 
> I am using the neutral and the cool curves. I down loaded the curves
> (from the MIS site) a couple months ago, so I assume they are the
> latest ones.
> 
> The Legion Photo Matte shadows seem to load up compared to the EAM,
> when printing from the same file, using the same settings. If no one
> else is having this problem, I will go back and try it again.
> 
> Thanks.

6 weeks in CA sun through glass takes care of the brighteners.  Now that I
have the black light I can check to see if the brighteners are completely
gone...or have just partially gone by that point.  The yellowing is not
extreme...it just looks like a unbrightened paper.  Nonetheless it is
something that will change with time...something I'm trying to avoid.  From
what I've seen of your fading numbers my test is about twice the strength of
your 300 hour test...assuming no major reciprocity failure.

Robert

On 4/11/02 6:10 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Mike noted:
> 
>> ... most Fiber Based photographic papers have brighteners are
>> yellow over time
> 
> In my fade testing I've seen no correlation between brighteners and fading.
> 
> Also, while many seem to think brighteners are a negative to longevity, I've
> seen no hard evidence that they reduce the paper's life.
> 
> I'm not sure there is any negative to brighteners aside from the fact that
> they will eventually "burn out" and cause the paper to yellow a bit.  In my
> tests the typical yellowing is about 3 units of 256, then the papers
> stabilize and do not further yellow.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

"jrandall1149" <jrandall@...> writes:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., David Dyer-Bennet <dd-
> b@d...> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> So I've looked at the Brandon, Randall, and Woolfe curves (and
> workflows) at MIS to consider a partitioned workflow.  
>  
> The big thing that bothers me about all of these is that I have no 
> way to fix the curves for myself or generate curves for a new paper, 
> or select the optimal media and paper settings, or anything.  I'd 
> have to use them for packaged systems.  (And none of them have curves 
> for Glacier Matte or Aspen).
> <snip>
> 
> Since I don't have a densitometer this may be an essentially insoluble
> problem. 
> <snip>
> 
> Anybody have a method for end-users to produce their own quadtone 
> separation curves? <snip> 
> 
> David:
> 
> I publish the RGB I/O values so folks CAN tweak the curves for them 
> selves (it is a lot easier using Picture Windows, but that's another 
> story).  I generated my 1160 partitioned curves using only a scanner 
> as my densiomenter.  It can be done.  It's not rocket science.  It 
> only take time, paper and ink.  
> 
> My basic procedure for generating partitioned curves is to scan a 21-
> stepwedge in color with VueScan setting the WP and BP to clip the 0 
> and 255 patches and autolevels color balance.  I then open the file 
> using Picture Windows curves/histogram feature in the HSV colorspace 
> and check the location of the other 19 "peaks" across the 0-255 range 
> and iteratively adjust the partition curves to evenly space the 
> peaks.  This is just manually building an inkset/printer/paper 
> profile. 

I think I almost understand that; so if I really went at it, I
probably would.  (And reading it again carefully it already makes more
sense :-) ).  I take it that *how* you change the curves to equalize
the steps is a matter of experience and black art?

I'm a big fan of Picture Windows myself, so I may just move my B&W
work over there if I start doing this.  Their curves/histogram tool is
*so much* better than the one in Photoshop, in particular!

I do like working in adjustment layers, though; the *other* things
that have me in photoshop at the moment are specific to color (the
Applied Science Fiction ROC and SHO plugins).  And the color balance
and color correction tools in PW are really good too.  And I prefer
the tools for converting color to monochrome in PW as well.  And I
like the filter bank.  And I like being able to do everything in
16-bit. 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@...  /  Ghugle: the Fannish Ghod of Queries
 John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
        Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
                 Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/

David:  

I think it is more correct to say curve tweaking is a matter of 
experience and b/w art. <g>

Glad to see another Picture Windows user standup and be counted.

Jeff Randall

> > David:
> > 
> > I publish the RGB I/O values so folks CAN tweak the curves for 
them 
> > selves (it is a lot easier using Picture Windows, but that's 
another 
> > story).  I generated my 1160 partitioned curves using only a 
scanner 
> > as my densiomenter.  It can be done.  It's not rocket science.  
It 
> > only take time, paper and ink.  
> > 
> > My basic procedure for generating partitioned curves is to scan a 
21-
> > stepwedge in color with VueScan setting the WP and BP to clip the 
0 
> > and 255 patches and autolevels color balance.  I then open the 
file 
> > using Picture Windows curves/histogram feature in the HSV 
colorspace 
> > and check the location of the other 19 "peaks" across the 0-255 
range 
> > and iteratively adjust the partition curves to evenly space the 
> > peaks.  This is just manually building an inkset/printer/paper 
> > profile. 
> 
> I think I almost understand that; so if I really went at it, I
> probably would.  (And reading it again carefully it already makes 
more
> sense :-) ).  I take it that *how* you change the curves to equalize
> the steps is a matter of experience and black art?
> 
> I'm a big fan of Picture Windows myself, so I may just move my B&W
> work over there if I start doing this.  Their curves/histogram tool 
is

> *so much* better than the one in Photoshop, in particular!
> 
> I do like working in adjustment layers, though; the *other* things
> that have me in photoshop at the moment are specific to color (the
> Applied Science Fiction ROC and SHO plugins).  And the color balance
> and color correction tools in PW are really good too.  And I prefer
> the tools for converting color to monochrome in PW as well.  And I
> like the filter bank.  And I like being able to do everything in
> 16-bit.